1 2 WEK'EEZHII RENEWABLE 3 RESOURCES BOARD 4 PUBLIC HEARING 5 6 ENR PROPOSAL ON BATHURST 7 CARIBOU HERD MANAGEMENT ACTIONS 8 9 10 Panel Members: 11 Facilitator Alfonz Nitsiza 12 Member Eddie Erasmus 13 Member Grant Pryznyk 14 Member Bruce MacDonald 15 Member Joseph Judas 16 Member Ray Case 17 Member Ernie Campbell 18 19 20 HELD AT: 21 22 Cultural Centre 23 Behchoko, NT 24 March 14th, 2007 25 Day 2 of 2

1 APPEARANCES 2 John Donihee )Board Counsel 3 4 Rick Salter )Tlicho Government 5 Bertha Rabesca Zoe ) 6 7 John Andre )Barren Ground Caribou 8 Boyd Warner )Outfitters Association 9 Jim Peterson ) 10 Amanda Peterson ) 11 Barry Taylor ) 12 13 Claudia Haas (np) )North Slave Metis 14 Sheryl Grieve )Alliance 15 16 Darren Pickup )ENR 17 Susan Fleck ) 18 Bruno Croft ) 19 Robert Mulders ) 20 21 Andy McMullen )Bearwise 22 Boyd Warner )NWT Tourism 23 24 Rachel Crapeau )Yellowknives Dene 25 )First Nation

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page No. 3 List Of Undertakings 4 4 ENR Panel 5 Continued Questions Period 6 6 7 Presentation By Barren Ground Caribou 8 Outfitters Association 45 9 Question Period 97 10 11 Presentation By Tlicho Government 150 12 Question Period 178 13 14 Presentation by Andy McMullen 197 15 Question Period 207 16 17 Presentation by North Slave Metis Alliance 210 18 Question Period 221 19 20 Presentation by NWT Tourism 223 21 Presentation by Yellowknives Dene First Nation 223 22 Question Period 231 23 Public comments 233 24 25 Reporter's Certificate 242

1 UNDERTAKINGS 2 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 1 ENR to provide Board with data on 4 wolf predation on Yukon and Alaska 5 herds. 43 6 2 Barren Ground Caribou Outfitters 7 Association to provide Yellowknives 8 Dene First Nation form on how caribou 9 are dispersed 129 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:17 a.m. 2 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, everyone. 4 Welcome to the Hearing. We'd like to start this morning 5 again with the opening prayer by an Elder, Jimmy B. 6 Rabesca from Wha Ti. 7 8 (OPENING PRAYER) 9 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Elder Jimmy. 11 Again, good morning. We want to open the Hearing and get 12 on with Day 2. We offer our sympathy to the community of 13 Behchoko which lost an Elder. 14 The Board wants to move this Hearing to 15 completion as efficiently as it can. The Board has 16 received and will read all the written materials. 17 Today we begin by completing the questions 18 of the ENR and Barren Ground Outfitters will present. 19 The Board understands that the Outfitters' presentation 20 is in three (3) parts and we have allowed it one (1) hour 21 twenty (20) minutes for all of them. Please govern 22 yourself accordingly. This limit will be enforced. 23 Then we move on to Tlicho Government and 24 after their presentation to other Intervenors. We ask 25 all presenters to keep to the time limits and focus on

1 important points in their submission. We will take 2 regular breaks as outlined in my opening comments. 3 With that we have on our list Bearwise to 4 do the questions of ENR. You can come up -- on the table 5 there, there's a mic there. 6 Please identify yourself and who you 7 represent, for the record. 8 9 QUESTION PERIOD CONTINUED: 10 MR. ANDY MCMULLEN: Thank you, Mr. 11 Chairman. My name's Andy McMullen. I run a company 12 called Bearwise but somehow it's gotten on the record 13 that's what I'm here for. I'm not here to represent 14 Bearwise or my company. I'm just an individual who spent 15 twenty-nine (29) years in the north and worked with the 16 outfitters, worked with government, worked with almost 17 everybody in this room on this particular issue, so I 18 just have some experience to share with the Board. All 19 right? 20 Well, my first question is for ENR. It 21 has to do with the tag increase back in 2000. I recall 22 in '96 the outfitters requested a tag increase. At that 23 time it was following a survey that had just been 24 completed. The Government told the outfitters that their 25 survey suggested the Bathurst caribou population was

1 declining, at the very best stable, so they weren't going 2 to entertain a tag increase at that time. And -- and to 3 accommodate the outfitters they created this pooling of 4 tags, which I'll talk about later. 5 But I'm curious how we go from '96 with a 6 herd in decline and not supporting an increase in tags to 7 2000 when it jumps from one thirty-two (132) to one 8 eighty (180). 9 What was the rationale behind that 10 increase? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead. 15 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Mahsi. Just before I 16 go to the answer I wanted to introduce one (1) person -- 17 a new person at the table here and that's Robert Mulders, 18 to my left. He the Carnivore Biologist for the 19 department in Yellowknife. 20 The -- I wasn't -- wasn't part of the tag 21 increase that occurred in 2000. I've seen the letters 22 written to the Outfitters and the letters state that a 23 tag increase would -- is allowed under the condition that 24 it may change upon completion of the Bathurst Caribou 25 Management Plan and that or the results from the next

1 survey indicate a change in the resource. 2 MR. ANDY MCMULLEN: Thank you. Mr. 3 Chairman, well I guess a followup to that one would be: 4 So this increase from one thirty (130) to one eighty 5 (180), is an interim thing? Everybody was aware that -- 6 because it wasn't cast in stone for life? 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: What was the question? 8 MR. ANDY MCMULLEN: This one eighty 9 (180), were people made aware that this was either good 10 for life or was it just a short term measure and it would 11 be revisited and was everybody made aware of that? 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can you answer that? 13 MS. SUSAN FLECK: The -- the letter 14 indicates that it's interim until one of those conditions 15 occurs. 16 MR. ANDY MCMULLEN: Thank you. Mr. 17 Chairman, I guess it gets back to -- my first question I 18 don't think was answered. I was -- I was wondering what 19 -- what was the rationale behind increasing the tags from 20 one thirty two (132) to one eighty (180) apiece? 21 MS. SUSAN FLECK: I'm not aware of the 22 rationale. I can't answer that question. 23 MR. ANDY MCMULLEN: All right. Thank 24 you. Mr. Chairman, the next question goes to the actual 25 proposal and some of the act -- one of the action items,

1 in particular the three hundred and fifty (350) tags 2 being allocated with the idea that only 60 perc -- 2 3 percent success ratio in a harvest at two twenty (220). 4 If two twenty (220) is your goal, why are 5 you issuing three hundred and fifty (350) tags? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MS. SUSAN FLECK: The proposal is to -- 10 is for management actions to reduce harvest levels and we 11 have been monitoring the success of -- of the outfitters. 12 The -- our harvest estimates are the best estimates we 13 are aware of and we know that reductions will cause 14 hardships for many different people. So we -- it's also 15 my understanding in other jurisdictions that quotas can 16 be set up to reflect potential success rates. We assume 17 that success rates will continue to be lower for 18 outfitters. 19 MR. ANDY MCMULLEN: Spending time -- 20 having spent time in the outfitting industry, not 21 necessarily the Barren Ground Caribou Outfitters 22 Association, I do know that success rate, a lot of times 23 is just -- in the case of the caribou for instance, the 24 number of tags available. And in previous years the 25 outfitters have been outfitting at two (2) tags per

1 hunter and that second tag actually helps to lower the 2 success rate because that second tag is seen as more of 3 an insurance policy by the client. 4 When you go from twelve hundred (1,200) 5 tags to three hundred and fifty (350), I'm assuming, and 6 conservation would suggest, that they're going to harvest 7 100 percent of those tags. 8 So if two twenty (220) is your goal, 9 shouldn't two twenty (220) be the tag allotment? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MS. SUSAN FLECK: What we put into our 14 proposal is a -- our proposed actions to help reduce the 15 harvest, and the expectation is that there may be other 16 suggestions that come through this Hearing to the Board 17 to consider. The -- when we looked at the success rate 18 for this past year there were a number of situations 19 where no caribou were harvested at all and that doesn't 20 matter how many tags the people had, there were no 21 caribou that were harvested. 22 MR. ANDY MCMULLEN: I'm sorry to belabour 23 this one, but it makes no sense that that you base -- 24 you're basing the information on the best that's 25 available, and unfortunately it's not an exacting

1 science. You cannot tell us exactly how many caribou. 2 You measure trends. 3 You -- on the management side, on the 4 harvest side, the precision of going with 62 percent 5 success rates seems to be out of proportion. So I -- I 6 just -- I find it odd that you would set the -- make the 7 number of tags available on the idea that you're only 8 going to harvest a small number which doesn't reflect the 9 fact that the tags have been significantly reduced and 10 the harvest rates likely going to increase. 11 I think that one definitely has to be 12 revisited. It doesn't make much sense to be using that 13 level of precision at that end of the scale when the 14 information going in is not the good. I guess more of a 15 comment we've -- Mr. Chairman. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you specifically 17 ask a question please, I think. 18 MR. ANDY MCMULLEN: The question is 19 basically, how -- how -- why you apply that level of 20 precision at the harvest level where the precision going 21 in is not equal? 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right, Susan. 23 MS. SUSAN FLECK: I -- I can't answer 24 that question, Andy. 25 MR. ANDY MCMULLEN: All right. My --

1 I've got two (2) more question, Mr. Chairman, quickly. 2 My second questions got -- about the 3 winter road and the monitoring of the winter road and the 4 impacts of it. We get a little focussed on the 5 outfitting issues, but a lot more impacts on this herd 6 than outfitting. 7 But I've been here a long time and every 8 winter I hear questions about do caribou cross the road? 9 Does the road impact the caribou herd? And now we've got 10 ten thousand (10,000) loads rolling up that winter road, 11 but -- are you aware or are there studies being done that 12 specifically look at the impact of the winter road on 13 caribou? 14 MS. SUSAN FLECK: I'm not aware of any 15 studies on the winter roads in the Northwest Territories. 16 I know when the Dempster highway first opened in 1979 in 17 the Yukon it was a concern for the Porcupine herd. And I 18 actually was part of that study in 1979 and that winter 19 the caribou didn't cross the road but in subsequent years 20 the study continued and there was -- had been no effect. 21 The other observation we've had in the 22 Northwest Territories is that this -- winter roads have 23 been used to -- for hunters to find caribou. 24 MR. ANDY MCMULLEN: All right. I guess 25 yesterday the outfitters who did present -- or a question

1 were kind -- indicating that perhaps they weren't 2 consulted. Having worked for the Department, it kind of 3 surprises me. 4 On average, how many times a year do you 5 think you meet with the Outfitters Association or their 6 members? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead, Bruno. 11 MR. BRUNO CROFT: Mr. Chairman, I don't 12 have precise number for Andy. I know he's -- he's keen 13 on -- on accurate numbers but we do consult a lot with 14 our outfitters. It's probably the group that is the most 15 consulted with and some time I'd like to spend more time 16 with other groups such as the resident hunters. I 17 haven't had a chance to do that a lot. 18 So as far as consulting since I've been in 19 the -- in the work, it's been quite frequent. It's 20 probably true before I got into this job. In the course 21 of the Bathurst Caribou Management Plan development, I 22 cannot comment on that. I wasn't part of that and I'm 23 not too sure exactly what took place then. 24 MR. ANDY MCMULLEN: But I guess it's fair 25 to say that the Department has consulted with the

1 outfitters and has a pretty good handle on their interest 2 in the cari -- Bathurst caribou herd? 3 MR. BRUNO CROFT: Mr. Chairman, the 4 answer to this is yes. 5 MR. ANDY MCMULLEN: Okay. That's all the 6 questions I have, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. 8 The next group to come up to question the ENR is North 9 Slave Metis Alliance. North Slave Metis Alliance...? 10 I don't see them here so we'll go on to 11 the next line-up, is the NWT Tourism. Please state your 12 name and who you represent. Thank you. 13 MR. BOYD WARNER: Thank you, Mr. 14 Chairman. The name is Boyd Warner. I am vice-president 15 of the NWT Tourism Association. I'm also an outfitter. 16 I wasn't -- as you know I wasn't supposed to be 17 presenting on behalf of the NWT Tourism Association today 18 because of illnesses and other things none of the other 19 executives could make it. 20 So I only have one (1) quick question for 21 ENR, Mr. Chairman, and that question is: Does ENR feel 22 that it is important to discuss changes that affect 23 tourism operators with those operators before regulations 24 are proposed or enacted, and if so -- or either way was 25 this done in this case?

1 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead. 5 MS. SUSAN FLECK: The -- the usual 6 channel of discussion with tourism operators is through 7 the Department of Industry, Tourism, and Investment. 8 However, as Bruno indicated, we have met regularly with 9 the Outfitters Association and at the meetings we 10 indicated that there would be decreases to -- that -- 11 decreases to the quotas were being considered, that we 12 were concerned about the harvest levels of caribou. 13 MR. BOYD WARNER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 14 I don't know that that directly answers the -- the 15 question. 16 In this case, before the proposal was 17 presented to the Wek'eezhii Board, Mr. Chairman, I'd just 18 like to know if ENR did consult with tourism operators? 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead. 20 MS. SUSAN FLECK: When the department 21 provided the proposal to the Wek'eezhii Board, at the 22 same time we provided the proposal to all other groups to 23 allow them the opportunity to review the proposal and be 24 prepared to provide comments to the Board. 25 MR. BOYD WARNER: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We have 2 next in line is the Yellowknife's Dene First Nation. 3 Yellowknife's Dene First Nation...? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't think they are 8 here. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, as we go on to 13 the presentation now. The -- no? 14 I am getting ahead of myself here. I 15 forgot. The question from the staff, Board staff or 16 legal counsel, to the ENR. 17 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Thank you, Mr. 18 Chairman. John Donihee, counsel for the Board. I do 19 have a couple of questions and through the chair, the 20 first one: On December the 15th, 2006 the Department 21 forwarded the Minister's proposal to the Board and that 22 proposal suggests that the Bathurst herd harvest level 23 has -- in the period for 2005/2006 was five thousand 24 seven hundred and forty-four (5,744) animals, for 25 caribou.

1 And the proposal goes on to explain that 2 in the Department, the Minister's view, the total harvest 3 of the herd has to be kept to 4 percent or lower, and so 4 the Department proposes that the total harvest of caribou 5 from this herd be reduce to five thousand, one hundred 6 and twenty (5,120) animals. 7 The Department's proposal actually 8 provides more detail than that and we've actually seen 9 some of it yesterday and it's certainly in the 10 materials. In -- in particular, it suggests that the 11 outfitted hunts by the Barren Ground Caribou Outfitters 12 and others has to kept to two hundred and twenty (220) 13 caribou. And that's based -- that number is based on, as 14 I understand it, 62 percent of three hundred and fifty 15 (350), assuming that the current success rates for hunts, 16 experienced in the last year or so, is going to be 17 replicated going forward. 18 So just to keep from getting confused, 19 I'll refer to the three hundred and fifty (350) number; 20 so the three hundred and fifty (350) tags potentially out 21 there for the outfitters, as outlined in the December 22 15th proposal. 23 Then in early January the Department met 24 with the outfitters and on January th 8th, 2007 you wrote 25 to the Board indicating that the tags for outfitted hunts

1 in 2007 were going to be increased to seven hundred and 2 fifty (750). The Minister wrote further to the Board on 3 the 18th of January and suggested that in order to 4 provide with the outfitters certainty for marketing 5 purposes that this seven hundred and fifty (750) would be 6 the number that would be allocated for 2007. 7 Now I note in your presentation yesterday, 8 the very last slide you had -- the slide was entitled, 9 Conclusion, and within that slide you had a subheading 10 under which -- entitled, Proposed Management Actions to 11 Help the Barr -- Bathurst Herd Recover, and that -- on 12 that slide you're back down to reducing the tags for 13 outfitted hunts to three hundred and fifty (350) and to 14 one (1) per hunter. 15 And so my question really is just: What 16 number is it that you want the Board to consider in -- in 17 responding to your proposal? 18 MS. SUSAN FLECK: The actions in the 19 proposal are actions that we suggested to reduce harvest. 20 In the estimates that we provided for the harvest we made 21 a number of assumptions, and in those assumptions the 22 number -- if the level of harvesting for -- by 23 Aboriginals continues and the residents continue then 24 there was a -- an estimate that we provided that we 25 didn't -- didn't want outfitted hunts to exceed. Our

1 overall objective is to reduce harvest as much as 2 possible. 3 The proposal remains the same. It's three 4 hundred and fifty (350) and the actions by the Minister 5 were an interim step for this year. 6 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Thank you, Mr. 7 Chairman. John Donihee. I don't understand your answer. 8 Are you telling me that you have already 9 regulated and provided seven hundred and fifty (750) tags 10 to the outfitters for this year? 11 MS. SUSAN FLECK: The Minister's decision 12 for 2007, the instructions have been provided to the 13 Department of Justice to draft the regulations, and that 14 process has not been completed. 15 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: John Donihee for the 16 Board. If the miner has -- Minister's provided 17 instructions to the Department of Justice he's made a 18 decision then already, hasn't he? 19 He's decided that seven hundred and fifty 20 (750) is going to be what's provided to the outfitters 21 notwithstanding this process that we're engaged in? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can we get an answer to

1 the question please. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MS. SUSAN FLECK: As we indicated 6 yesterday, I can't speak on behalf of the Minister and 7 we'll endeavour to return to the Board with a response. 8 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Thank you, Mr. 9 Chairman. John Donihee, Board Counsel. I'm not asking 10 you to speak on behalf of the Minister, I'm asking you to 11 tell me what you know. 12 Do you know if instructions have gone to 13 the Department of Justice to put seven hundred and fifty 14 (750) tags into that schedule in the regulations? 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead. 16 MS. SUSAN FLECK: I indicated earlier the 17 answer is yes. 18 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Thank you very much. 19 John Donihee again. Well, assuming that seven hundred 20 and fifty (750) tags are issued to the outfitters and 21 assuming a success ratio in the 62 percent range, haven't 22 you already then basically set up a situation where the 23 department is not going to meet its 4 percent? 24 The arithmetic to me no longer works out 25 to five thousand one hundred and twenty (5,120); would

1 you agree with that? 2 MS. SUSAN FLECK: The seven hundred and 3 fifty (750) was proposed as an interim step for this year 4 only, with the goal of going to three fifty (350). This 5 is not an unusual practice. We did the same last year 6 where the reduction was an interim step. 7 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Thank you, Mr. 8 Chairman. John Donihee again. Well perhaps Ms. -- 9 through the Chair, Mr. Fleck, you could just tell us what 10 the 4 percent really means then. 11 Does it mean 4 percent this year, 4 12 percent next years, 4 percent when you get to it? And 13 what are happening to the caribou in the meanwhile? 14 MS. SUSAN FLECK: In the meanwhile I 15 think the caribou are waiting for us to take some action 16 to reduce the harvest. The proposal is what we put to 17 the Board and we're waiting to hear back from the Board 18 on the proposal and the actions in it. 19 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Thank you, Mr. 20 Chairman. John Donihee. Thank you. May I take it then 21 that for purposes of the Board's report, recommendations 22 to the Minister, that we should amend the way that we 23 respond to speak to the appropriateness perhaps, if I can 24 use that word, the appropriateness of a quota for Barren 25 Ground Outfitters of three hundred and fifty (350)

1 starting only in 2007 and 2008? Because it -- it does 2 seem to me that for this year the number, the way your 3 describing the situation, the number has already been 4 set. 5 MS. SUSAN FLECK: As I said in the 6 presentation, we're waiting to hear back from the Board 7 on the recommendations and the Minister will listen to 8 what the Board recommends in any area. 9 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: John Donihee, for the 10 Board. I just have one (1) question I want to ask you to 11 make something else crystal clear, for purposes of the 12 record. I want to read to you a definition from the 13 Tlicho Agreement. It's a definition of total allowable 14 harvest and it's found in Section 1 of the Agreement. 15 And it says: 16 "A total allowable harvest means in 17 relation to a population or stock of 18 wildlife, the total amount of that 19 population or stock that may be 20 harvested annually." 21 And it seems to me in reading the 22 Department's proposal that you have proposed a -- a total 23 number; five thousand, one hundred and twenty (5,120). 24 And yet in the departments written submissions to the 25 Board you have, in -- in a couple of places, indicated

1 that you do not want the Board to treat this proposal as 2 a proposal for a total allowable harvest. 3 And so first of -- first of all, I'd like 4 you to confirm that on the record, and secondly, if you 5 can, without -- I'm not asking you for a legal opinion 6 but I'm asking you for your understanding of it, but if 7 you can explain to me why you -- why you don't think this 8 is a request for a total allowable harvest. 9 MS. SUSAN FLECK: I'm aware of the 10 definition in the Tlicho Agreement for a total allowable 11 harvest and it was a question asked by the Board in the 12 information request. Specifically, the response we 13 provided was the ENR proposal does not address 14 establishing a total allowable harvest for the Bathurst 15 Herd. 16 We note that the Agreement -- the Tlicho 17 Agreement provides a direction on when and how that is to 18 be established. We suggest that measures other than 19 establishing a total allowable harvest can be used to 20 address the conservation of the herd. 21 The numbers that we presented in the 22 proposal were to help people understand how we came to 23 the -- the suggestion that the quota for the outfitters 24 should be changed. 25 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Thank you very much.

1 John Donihee, for the Board. I -- I just have a couple 2 more questions, Mr. Chair. I'm referring to your -- the 3 -- the actual text of the proposal that was filed on 4 December the 15th, and on page six (6) of eight (8) as 5 part of your table it sort of gives a summary of your 6 measures and outlines the rationale for them. 7 The top of the page you have your proposal 8 for a winter road corridor and the rationale, it says: 9 "This is recommended in the Bathurst 10 Caribou Management Plan as a measure to 11 reduce harvest. There would be no 12 hunting for all hunting licenses. ENR 13 will consult YKDFN..." 14 And so on. So that's -- that's what I 15 want to ask you the question about, that propose -- or 16 measure. 17 First of all, the way that it's been 18 presented, the -- the language has varied a little bit in 19 the -- in the materials that you filed with the Board. I 20 understand that what your proposing is a winter road 21 corridor that would apply to everyone including 22 Aboriginal harvesters; is that -- am I correct in that? 23 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Yes. 24 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Thank you. And so I - 25 - I think I just want to lead you through some things

1 that I suggest maybe at some point you ought to discuss 2 with counsel. Section 10.5.1 of the Tlicho Agreement 3 provides for rights of access for Tlicho harvesters and - 4 - so I'm just saying that their acts -- they have a right 5 of access to all lands in Mow -- I apologize for 6 mispronouncing this, Mowhi Gogha De Niitlee, okay. So 7 that's all I want you to understand about 10.5.1. 8 But then, if you a look at Section 12, 9 or Article 12 of the agreement; at Article 6 -- 12.6.2 -- 10 12.6.2(B), and it talks about what the -- what the limits 11 that can be imposed upon Tlicho harvesters. And in terms 12 of the right of access that's referred to in 10.5.1, it 13 says: 14 "That access can only be restricted for 15 purposes of safety." 16 And yet the rational that you've set out 17 in your proposal is that you suggest that you may use the 18 winter route corridor as a conservation measure and not 19 for purposes of safety. So I apologise for doing it this 20 way on the record, Mr. Chair, but -- because I don't 21 really have a question. Perhaps I'll just say I urge you 22 to discuss that point with counsel and you may want to 23 get back to the Board if you have anything further to 24 tell us about that. 25 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Noted.

1 MR JOHN DONIHEE: Thank you. I have two 2 (2) more questions Mr. Chair. The next one -- it's John 3 Donihee again. 4 The Wek'eezhii Renewable Resources Board 5 has a jurisdiction set out in the Article 12 of the 6 Tlicho Agreement. And as we heard yesterday there are 7 others who harvest in Wek'eezhii. Obviously the Tlicho 8 Government is here as a participant in this proceeding 9 and some of those others are also registered: 10 Yellowknives Dene, for example, and the NSMA. 11 I just wonder if you could advise the 12 Board what specific consultation plans the Department has 13 in respect of the proposal for dealing with a Akaitcho 14 First Nations, Metis Intuit, and others. Because in the 15 end, even though they may be harvesting in Wek'eezhii 16 they, by and large, are doing so in the exercise of 17 Aboriginal rights as well. 18 So how do you -- have you or how do you 19 intend, specifically, to -- to consult with these 20 organizations, or individuals with respect to the 21 proposal? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MS. SUSAN FLECK: The Department is very

1 aware of the requirements for consultation in land claim 2 areas and outside. We have had -- it's my understanding 3 that the North Slave Region has met with the Yellowknives 4 Dene First Nation. They had a day-long session a few 5 weeks ago and reviewed the proposal. My understanding is 6 they've provided some comments on it, as well. And there 7 was a meeting with the North slave Metis Alliance. I'm 8 not aware if the proposal was discussed at that meeting 9 or not. 10 I -- the other comment is that these 11 actions need to be applied outside of Wek'eezhii and we 12 still have to -- there are still some other groups out 13 there, communities that use Bathurst caribou that we have 14 not met with. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Thank you, Ms. Fleck. 19 John Donihee, for the Board. My last question. 20 We heard yesterday from the Tlicho 21 Government and their questions of -- of you, that there 22 are requirements in the Tlicho Agreement, to consult with 23 them before regulation changes are made. And as I 24 understand the purpose of consultation, it's generally 25 intended to -- to seek, I suppose, to exchange

1 information; to seek accommodation if not consensus about 2 management actions that may be taken by government, and 3 that it's supposed to happen before the management 4 actions are taken. 5 Now, on that basis one might assume that, 6 you know, if the Department consults with the Tlicho 7 Government, that the Minister's proposal might be altered 8 by that consultation. I mean, if there's no opening at 9 all for change based on discussion and better 10 understanding it makes consultation rather a waste of 11 time. 12 And for example, you propose an 13 enforceable tag system for Aboriginal harvesters in order 14 to monit -- monitor the harvest, that -- that's one of 15 the things that's in your proposal and as you know from 16 the materials filed with the Board by the Tlicho 17 Government and the YKDFN, they're -- they're opposed to 18 that idea. So that's something, that at least with 19 Tlicho, that you really need to talk about. 20 I guess the question I have is this: If 21 we assume that there may be some changes to the proposal 22 resulting from this kind of consultation, do you still 23 want the Board to proceed with the proposal as it is in 24 front of them now or should we wait for the consultation 25 to take place?

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MS. SUSAN FLECK: It's my understanding 4 that the Tlicho Government, the North Slave Metis 5 Alliance, and the Yellowknife's Dene First Nation have 6 provided views on the proposal we put in front of the 7 Board. Our view is that we would like to continue with 8 that process. 9 The -- there is, as I mentioned yesterday, 10 in speaking with the -- or responding to questions from 11 the Tlicho Government that once there is a recommendation 12 or recommendations from the Board, we will then consult 13 with the Tlicho on the action -- the final actions and 14 decisions that the Minister would take. So we would like 15 the Board to continue with the proposal. 16 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 17 I think I'll leave it at that. Those are my questions. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Board 19 staff, have any questions? Board Members, questions? 20 Go ahead, Bruce. 21 MR. BRUCE MACDONALD: Thank you, Mr. 22 Chairman. Bruce MacDonald, Wek'eezhii Board Member. 23 This one sort of follows up on what John was asking; 24 maybe a point of clarification on the proposal that was 25 submitted, page 5 of 8 on the -- of Appendix A, again

1 with harvest information. 2 It say's, and I can read it here: 3 "Compulsory reporting of harvest by 4 requiring tags for aboriginal 5 hunters..." 6 And then it goes on to say: 7 "...who will issue the tags." 8 If in fact the number was forty five 9 hundred (4,500), just for arguments sake, would -- would 10 the assumption then be that forty five hundred (4,500) 11 animals were harvested or is -- is there also a mechanism 12 to report back on the success of the -- that tag use? 13 MS. SUSAN FLECK: The proposal that we 14 submitted is based in part on a process that is being 15 looked at in the Inuvik region where there has been a 16 total allowable harvest set for the Bluenose West herd. 17 The agreement is that the number of tags that would be 18 issued would be in relation to that number. That number 19 is not set in regulation. 20 But the Boards were working out an 21 agreement to divide the number of tags between different 22 areas and then each Board would work with their 23 communities and they would allocate them. And the 24 expectation is that we would hear back on the success of 25 those tags.

1 MR. BRUCE MACDONALD: Thank you. Mr. 2 Chairman, my nest question is: We've heard -- this is -- 3 would be in relation to page six (6) of eight (8) of the 4 same proposal and the same appendices. 5 You list there monitoring of the herd and 6 there's a number of different -- spring calf survival 7 condition, pregnancy rates, male/female sex ratios, et 8 cetera, et cetera. I haven't heard anything about 9 habitat condition. 10 Has there been any word done or will there 11 be and work done on habi -- habitat condition for -- for 12 Bathurst caribou? Thank you. 13 MR. BRUNO CROFT: Mr. Chairman, I can 14 answer some of them. Thank you. 15 We're looking into this, Bruce. One of 16 the things that came out of the latest CARMA proposal is 17 to develop what we call MDVI, sort of a -- a greenness -- 18 monitor the greenness or vegetation in -- in the summer 19 range using satellite imageries. We're going to have 20 folks looking into that, some researchers. 21 This is one (1) big gap that we do not 22 know in the summer time. We know that the current 23 condition of the animals or the past decline is probably 24 linked to nutritional stress. Whether it's linked to 25 lack of food or inability to eat probably we're not -- do

1 not know for sure, but we need to look into that, 2 especially in the summertime. 3 We also want to look at what's happening 4 in the wintertime, specifically in relation to forest 5 fires; how it affects winter range. So that's our next 6 big target, as far as research; one (1) of them. I hope 7 it answers your question, but if you want more info 8 please go ahead and ask more questions, Mr. Chairman. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. BRUCE MACDONALD: Thank you, Mr. 13 Chairman. Bruce MacDonald. That does answer the 14 question, thank you. 15 The next question I have, again we -- we 16 heard yesterday about wolves and grizzly bear predation, 17 so this would be in reference to slide sixteen (16) of 18 your presentation. It's just a general question. 19 We heard some different numbers, but I 20 just wanted -- I guess in my simple biologist mind to 21 hear, do you think, in your opinion, that wolves and 22 grizzly bears are having a -- are a significant driving 23 factor of the decline of this population of caribou, the 24 Bathurst herd? 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. ROBERT MULDERS: Mr. Chairman, Robert 4 Mulders. 5 For wolves and bears, we do not have a 6 good handle on the predation rates of those two (2) 7 species of Barren Ground caribou, nor do we have a good 8 handle on significance of those predation rates, but we 9 do know that they are an important part of the ecosystem 10 and wolves, bears, wolverine, foxes do rely on -- on 11 Bathurst caribou. 12 MR. BRUCE MACDONALD: Thank you for that 13 answer. Mr. Chairman, my next question -- it's Bruce 14 Macdonald again for the Board. 15 On Slide 17 you presented us with some 16 2005/'06 caribou harvest data and that's broken out -- 17 Susan, you went through the -- how it was broken out so I 18 won't go into those details, but it's nice to see, I 19 guess, at least an estimate of Bathurst herd harvesting; 20 Bluenose East herd harvesting, for example, for this 21 particular year. 22 So I guess a couple of questions. One 23 (1), has this been done for other years? And if not, can 24 this be done for other years and that information 25 provided to the Board? Thank you.

1 MR. BRUNO CROFT: Mr. Chairman, this is 2 Bruno Croft. 3 Our goal is to have a good reporting 4 system going on a permanent basis from now on. We 5 haven't done a good job at it in the past. 6 We don't have a lot of good info prior to 7 this year. It was our first attempt in many years to get 8 a good estimate on a harvest; some of it is good, some of 9 it is less good. But we definitely need to get a better 10 system going and we've presented some ideas to our 11 communities and hunters in general. 12 You're probably aware that we came up with 13 a harvest calendar to help people -- remind to report 14 their harvest on different time of year. And we want to 15 build on that through consultation and working with all 16 our hunters to again have something permanent in place, 17 which I suspect will improve over time. 18 We need to provide our managers the best 19 possible set of -- set of information on the harvests and 20 others, such as the various surveys and -- and other 21 indicators that we monitor on an annual basis; the 22 harvest is one (1) of them and we need to get better at 23 it. 24 MR. BRUCE MACDONALD: Thank you, Mr. 25 Chairman. But I guess it didn't totally answer the

1 question. I guess what I'm wondering is, this -- this 2 was done from what I assume on -- on past available 3 information there would be, I assume, equal information 4 at least from a collaring point of view where the 5 locations are of, say, perhaps 2004/2005 animals. An 6 analysis like this, at least in my mind, helps me get at 7 some of the issues perhaps that some of the outfitters 8 are raising that not all animals are harvested from the 9 same herd, so to me this is valuable information. 10 So is this something that could be 11 provided for other years? 12 MR. BRUCE CROFT: Mr. Chairman, we 13 certainly have the collar location from previous years; 14 we could look at that; looking at movement and 15 distribution of various herds at different time of year. 16 What might be a little difficult to do at 17 this time is to determine the exact location of the 18 harvest. We were able to do some of that this year by 19 visiting hunters and it's one (1) of the areas we need to 20 focus more, but it'll be a little difficult to do. I 21 don't believe that all our hunters will know exactly 22 where they have been hunting. Going way back it's -- you 23 know, you sort of forget where you got this many animals 24 at that time of year and this time of year. 25 We could give it a try, but it would

1 probably be not as good as what we had this year. 2 MR. BRUCE MACDONALD: Thank you. Thank 3 you, Mr. Chairman. 4 And my last question -- and I'm not sure 5 if there's even a good answer to this one but I'm going 6 to ask it anyway. 7 I think it's safe to say in the last 8 couple of years we've been lucky and that's my word that 9 the caribou have sort of gone elsewhere. They're not 10 close to town at least in Yellowknife for example. 11 So the 4 percent right now, I guess it -- 12 it seems like it's a good target, but what happens when 13 if for example next year the animals do come closer to 14 town? And is this 4 percent, I guess that's been 15 proposed to the Board, something that we can 16 realistically expect to be successful, in your opinion? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 MS. SUSAN FLECK: What we've done is 21 provide our best suggestions for how to achieve a 4 22 percent. I think there are, as we said, other options 23 out there, and the intent was to work with this over the 24 next few years so we could collect better harvest 25 information in the future.

1 MR. BRUCE MACDONALD: Thank you Mr. 2 Chairman. That's all the questions I have. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Other Board members...? 4 Grant...? 5 MR. GRANT PRYZNYK: Thank you Mr. Chair. 6 My name's Grant Pryznyk, I'm a Board member. One (1) 7 question to ENR: Which other of your proposed management 8 options have been submitted to Justice for a drafting? 9 MS. SUSAN FLECK: None. 10 MR. GRANT PRYZNYK: Thank you Mr. 11 Chairman, that's it. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Other Board members...? 13 Eddie...? 14 MR. EDDIE ERASMUS: Eddie Erasmus, a 15 Board Member. I would just like to ask a question about 16 the -- one of the questions the -- the Tlicho Government 17 have asked: Why didn't the Department consult with the 18 Tlicho Government? And you didn't respond to that. 19 I understand that you indicated that you 20 couldn't speak with the Minister, or the -- I like -- 21 what I'd like to see there is a -- like a written 22 response to that before the Wek'eezhii Board makes their 23 decision. 24 When can we have that answer to those 25 questions that Tlicho Government have asked?

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MS. SUSAN FLECK: We're aware that the 4 Tlicho Government has written to the Minister on that -- 5 on questions, and there will be a written response going 6 back to the Tlicho Government on the questions they 7 raised, but I can't say when that will be done. 8 MR. EDDIE ERASMUS: Thank you Mr. 9 Chairman. The other question that I have is in regards 10 to the caribou decline. 11 The whole notion of this caribou decline, 12 is it based on this Bathurst Caribou Management Plan? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MS. SUSAN FLECK: We used the Bathurst 17 Management Plan to look at potential actions to address a 18 decline, but the information on a decline occurring comes 19 from the information that I've presented yesterday. 20 MR. EDDIE ERASMUS: We -- we heard that 21 the plan, it's not a final plan, it's just a draft. 22 Regardless of that, the Minister has made decisions on 23 tags, and you have just indicated earlier this morning 24 that -- that the ENR will continue with this process 25 regardless of the plan, whether it's final or not,

1 regardless of this Hearing and this process. 2 Am I correct? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 MS. SUSAN FLECK: My recollection of what 7 I said was that the Minister would listen to 8 recommendations from this Board. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MR. EDDIE ERASMUS: I don't have any more 13 questions. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Board 15 Members...? No? 16 Ray...? Go ahead, Ray. 17 MR. RAY CASE: Ray Case, Board Member. 18 Yesterday you presented information on the 19 ratio of bulls to cows in the herd. It is my 20 understanding that one (1) of the concerns raised about 21 that number is the ability of the bulls to do their job 22 in such low numbers. 23 Has there been any observations or 24 documentation of -- of late calving on the calving 25 grounds which would be another indicator of the bulls

1 being unable to successfully breed all the females? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MS. SUSAN FLECK: It's my understanding 6 that this was not noticed at the calving grounds on 7 Bathurst for last summer but there was an observation of 8 small and large calves on -- in the post-calving surveys 9 for the Bluenose West, and I think Bluenose East herds 10 but we don't have information on sex ratio. 11 MR. RAY CASE: Just for clarification, so 12 in the surveys that were done in 2003 and 2006 there 13 wasn't any observations of -- of late -- late calving? 14 MR. BRUNO CROFT: Mr. Chairman, this is 15 Bruno Croft. 16 I can only speak for 2006. Everything 17 appeared to be normal -- normal and on schedule on that 18 survey. 19 MR. RAY CASE: Ray Case, Board Member. 20 The information that was provided on wolf 21 productivity in 2006, I think the phrase was used that it 22 suggests that wolves are responding. I'm wondering if 23 just -- what type of information could be or is being 24 collected to confirm that under -- that suggestion that - 25 - from 2006?

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. ROBERT MULDERS: Mr. Chairman, Robert 4 Mulders. 5 I guess if we were to look at the -- the 6 annual den site surveys that are done, they'd provide a 7 measure of occupancy rates at den sites. And in 2006 8 there's indication that fewer den sites were active. 9 Also some of the necropsy data that was done last year, I 10 believe a hundred and five (105) carcasses were examined 11 and there were very few pups in that harvest, suggesting 12 that there already is potentially an impact on the wolf 13 population with fewer pups surviving. And it may be 14 possible to look at more wolves that are being harvested; 15 to look at the condition and see whether wolves are being 16 impacted by fewer caribou out there. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead, Susan. 18 MS. SUSAN FLECK: We're also -- heard 19 reports from hunters or trappers out there that they 20 haven't been as successful in finding wolves to trap, so 21 the trapper who works out of reliance has a very low 22 harvest this year. And Robert was showing me figures 23 from Northern -- from the NWT from the Saskatchewan 24 hunters and their harvest is down this year as well. 25 MR RAY CASE: Ray case. So the -- just

1 to confirm, the plan is to continue to monitor the things 2 that were monitored in 2006 to confirm the suggested 3 changes? 4 MR. ROBERT MULDERS: Yes. 5 MR RAY CASE: Ray Case. In the 6 presentation there were also mentions of recent efforts 7 to deal with wolf predation on Yukon and Alaska herds. 8 Is -- could someone comment on the effectiveness of those 9 -- those programs. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MS. SUSAN FLECK: I -- I don't have the 14 data to -- on -- on the results, but we could obtain that 15 information and provide it to the Board. 16 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Thank you. Mr. 17 Chairman, if we're going to accept that as Undertaking 18 Number 1 from the Department, I'd like to have them 19 indicate when the can provide it to us and -- so that we 20 can know if we can have it in time to base any of our 21 deliberations on. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, John. Go 23 ahead, Susan. 24 MS. SUSAN FLECK: We -- we'll -- we will 25 try to provide it by a week from today, and sooner if

1 possible. 2 3 --- UNDERTAKING NO. 1: ENR to provide Board with 4 data on wolf predation on 5 Yukon and Alaska herds. 6 7 MR. RAY CASE: No other questions, 8 thanks. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Board members, 10 questions...? Ernie...? No? Okay. 11 So I don't have a question to -- I do 12 have, however, some comments. I guess there were some 13 questions raised from Tlicho Government, as well as our 14 legal counsel, with regards to the process the ENR have 15 used to come and bring the proposal to the Board, and we 16 were not -- this Board was not happy about the whole 17 process nd we sent a response back to the Minister. 18 But we feel that there was really no level 19 of respect for this Board. I just want to point that out 20 for the record and to the audience there. 21 With that, this concludes our first round 22 of the presentations and questions. So we go on to the 23 next round after we have ten (10) minutes recess. Thank 24 you. 25

1 (ENR PANEL STANDS DOWN) 2 3 --- Upon recessing at 10:34 a.m. 4 --- Upon recessing at 10:34 a.m. 5 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you. And 7 we'll go again with the next presenter which is the 8 Outfitters Association. Like I indicated in my opening 9 this morning, there's three (3) parts to this 10 presentation; there's Bathurst Outfitters Association, 11 and I think the other one is Boyd Warner and John Andre. 12 So we allowed it about an hour twenty (20) 13 minutes so hopefully we'll get it all done. Divide that 14 into three (3), I think we get forty (40) minutes each. 15 And then we go around again with the questioning. 16 And also I'd like to announce that we will 17 allow the general public an hour this afternoon to make a 18 statement from the community of Behchoko here to have the 19 opportunity to make a statement. And we don't have a 20 number of how many will be making their comments but we 21 want to limit that to about five (5) minutes each so we 22 can hear from as much people as we can. 23 So with that, I'll give the floor to 24 Amanda, from Outfitters Association. 25

1 PRESENTATION BY BARREN GROUND CARIBOU OUTFITTERS 2 ASSOCIATION: 3 MS. AMANDA PETERSON: Thank you very 4 much, Mr. Chairman. 5 Again, my name's Amanda Peterson and I'm 6 here speaking on behalf of the Barren Ground Caribou 7 Outfitters Association. I'd like to thank you very much 8 for this opportunity to present our perspectives for your 9 consideration in deciding the tag allocation changes 10 proposed by the Department of ENR in the Wek'eezhii area. 11 This presentation will highlight the many 12 positive roles that the cari -- that the Barren Ground 13 Caribou Outfitters play in barren ground caribou 14 management. I'll also speak to our role with partners, 15 with Aboriginal, Federal and Territorial governments, 16 non-government organizations, and the NWT economy. 17 Today we -- I hope to give you a better 18 understanding of who we are and how we participate in the 19 wise management of barren ground caribou. 20 First of all I'd like to introduce the 21 members of the Barren Ground Caribou Outfitters 22 Association. You'll have to pardon my pronunciation on a 23 few of these. Most of us are here today. 24 In alphabetical order we have Arctic 25 Safaris, rented -- represented here by Barry Taylor;

1 Dethi Laot'l Adventure Northwest, and with that is 2 Bathurst Development represented here by Boyd Warner. 3 We've got Detoncho/Enodah, Ragner Westrom. We have Camp 4 Ekwo/Rabesca Resources, Joyce and Moise Rabesca. I have 5 Peterson's Point Lake Lodge represented here by myself, 6 also Jim, Margaret, and Chad Peterson; True North 7 Safaris, Daniel, Gary and Malcolm Jaeb; and Qaivvik and 8 Caribou Pass which is represented by John Andre. 9 Although you see a few names associated 10 with each of the above businesses we are families. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MS. AMANDA PETERSON: I think a lot of 15 people think the outfitters are just outfitters, and they 16 don't necessarily see the families and the people behind 17 the scenes. So our staff, the businesses that we work 18 with and the northern communities that we work with, 19 they're all part of our extended family. I think that's 20 important to -- to note. 21 So as northerners we're all connected by a 22 common thread and that's the wise management and use of 23 our caribou herds. The Tlicho, the NWT residents, or 24 other NWT residents, governments, and the Barren Ground 25 Caribou Outfitters are all partners in maintaining

1 healthy caribou herds for future generations. Caribou 2 hunting has gained international recognition and through 3 this sustainable activity the NWT is highly regarded on 4 an international level. 5 We, the outfitters, have been a useful 6 force in bringing this international attention to the 7 wise use of this resource, as well as promoting our 8 history, culture and way of life. Although ENR proposal 9 -- although the ENR's proposal refers only to the 10 Bathurst herd, we must recognize that we also harvest 11 from other -- two (2) or three (3) other herds. 12 The barren ground caribou management 13 outfitters -- barren ground caribou outfitters main 14 objective is to encourage conservation and management of 15 wildlife resources. We respect the Board's mandate to 16 apply the principals and practices of conve -- 17 conservation. We also have conservation as part as our 18 cont -- constitution. 19 The Barren Ground Caribou Outfitters 20 Association is an official registered society of the NWT. 21 It -- we actually have an oath of preventing members from 22 being dishonest to potential hunters. We cannot sell 23 more caribou hunting trips than we are given tags for; to 24 do so is misleading to the customer and is considered 25 fraudulent business practice.

1 Therefore, you can understand the 2 difficult situation the proposed sudden tag cuts have put 3 the -- have put us in. Most of sell hunts two (2) or 4 three (3) years in advance and take deposits for these 5 hunts, some of which are used to pay for business 6 expenses. And for some, deposit refunds, if it comes to 7 that, can be very challenging for us. 8 By regulation our hunters only take 9 caribou ball -- bulls in the fall. The Caribou 10 Management Plan that was put forth also promotes bulls 11 only in times of caribou declines, and that's cited in 12 their document on page 13 of Barren Caribou Management 13 Plan. 14 We also want to note that we as 15 outfitters, we practice managed fair chase hunts for 16 ethical hunting purposes that coincides with the NWT 17 hunting regulations. Their hunting regulations required 18 a mandatory twelve (12) hour wait when flying into an 19 area. 20 We, as outfitters, take environmental and 21 wildlife conservation responses very seriously. We 22 recognized the Wek'eezhii renewable resource capacity 23 rights, powers and privileges in wildlife management and 24 the Wek'eezhii area. Because the Board must act in the 25 public interest, it must considers the interests of all

1 wildlife users in making a decision and being fair in its 2 decision making. 3 We recognize and respect the priority of 4 subsistence hunting over commercial harvesting as 5 entrenched in the Tlicho claim. 6 We realize that Wek'eezhii Renewable 7 Resource Board shall make the final determination 8 regarding the harvest level of the Bathurst herd based on 9 all evidence put before you. 10 When the Wek'eezhii Renewable Resource 11 Board makes an allo -- allocation of total allowable 12 harvest level, it shall be -- allocate portions of any 13 remainder of the total allowable harvest level among 14 other groups for other purposes. That's stated in that 15 Tlicho agreement on page 124. 16 So we want to acknowledge and say that we 17 fully respect the decision-making powers of the Wek -- 18 Wek'eezhii Board, and we trust that the Board with govern 19 fairly. 20 We don't necessarily agree that the herd 21 is in a crisis situation, and that such extreme measures 22 against outfitters are necessary as put forth in the ENR 23 proposal. We recognize that caribou migration patterns 24 are affected by -- by a variety of factors, and Susan 25 Fleck pointed that out in her presentation as well, and I

1 will talk to them a bit later; this is factors such as 2 global warming or climate change. 3 We have not established certainty on 4 caribou numbers and we would like to work towards 5 consensus of this. And we, I think, have, hopefully, have 6 shown a little bit by some of you, or as some have you 7 have noted, we are willing to do our part if the numbers 8 are determined to be low. 9 When the Government makes a total 10 allowable harvest it shall consider all relevant factors, 11 including current and past usage patterns and harvest 12 levels. Again, that's citing the Tlicho agreement 12.2 - 13 - .8.2 on page 117. 14 We as outfitters invite the Board to 15 consider our past tag allocation. We also ask the Board 16 to recognize our past usage patterns. For example, in 17 the 2006 season last year, we are issued one thousand two 18 hundred forty-three (1,243) tags, and harvested seven 19 hundred and twenty-seven (727) Caribou. And yes that 20 coincides with about 60 percent usage of our tags. 21 And this next slide here shows our harvest 22 levels for the past eight (8) years, and from the years 23 1999 to 2006. These numbers are taken from the Ellis 24 Report. 25 You might see here, might be -- might be a

1 surprise to the public, that our harvest levels aren't as 2 high as they might be perceived to be and these numbers, 3 as you know, are carefully documented by ENR; that's part 4 of our partnering with them. The number seven hundred 5 and twenty-seven (727) for the 2006 harvest level is well 6 -- it's a -- yeah, the overall harvest taken last year. 7 This is taken for the ENR's North Slave Regional Report. 8 We also recognize that ENR's proposal to 9 the Wek'eezhii Renewable Resource Board lists our 2006 10 harvest as seven hundred sixty-nine (769). So there's 11 some discrepancy in some numbers between both documents. 12 The harvest goal of 4 percent used by ENR 13 in their proposal, using a herd of one hundred twenty- 14 eight thousand (128,000) animals exists extremely close 15 to the actual percent harvested. 16 So if the 4 percent goal is what we're 17 looking at, then we need to really look at our numbers, 18 look at our facts, and make sure we get them straight. 19 As Andy had pointed out in his question that -- or his 20 statements earlier today that some -- yeah honestly, I 21 lost the tra -- train -- my train of thought, pardon me. 22 I'm going to continue on. 23 We have spoken with several independent 24 biologists and they have stated that our limited harvest 25 of mature bulls have little or no impact on the herd

1 population; that's backed up by a document provided by 2 Mr. -- biologist Mark Fraker. 3 We recognize three (3) kinds of valuable 4 knowledge for a better understanding of caribou: 5 traditional knowledge handed down by Elders in 6 communities, scientific knowledge from wildlife 7 biologists and others who study caribou, and also 8 outfitter knowledge. I'm just going to refer back to the 9 slide in a moment. 10 Outfitter knowledge -- well, let me -- let 11 me backtrack a minute. The people who I introduced in 12 the beginning of the presentation, the outfitters here 13 today at the presentation, most of us have been hunting 14 and been in the field for twenty-five (25) years or so. 15 So we have a combined knowledge base of over two 16 hundred (200) years of experience and that's -- that's 17 just us here at table. It doesn't -- doesn't include our 18 guides and the knowledge that they have had on the land. 19 And our knowledge comes from different 20 forms as well. You can get us talking about caribou. 21 There we will share a lot of stories with -- about our 22 experiences on the land so we have a lot of verbal 23 stories to share. We also have more formal types of 24 knowledge and some of them are pointed out here on this 25 slide.

1 We -- we monitor caribou migration 2 patterns and make wildlife observations. And that 3 wildlife can include other animals, be it moose or -- or 4 muskox, et cetera. We also prepare reports and help out 5 on the condition -- health and condition of caribou and 6 also report on their antler sizes. And we work 7 collectively on ENR on that. 8 We also report weather and environmental 9 data, which is important. We pretty much do that on our 10 own, making our own outfitter observations out there in 11 the field and an annual basis. And we also collect 12 tissue samples for studying diseased caribou. 13 And I've -- I've brought in a package. I 14 don't know if the Board's familiar with the forms in the 15 disease kits so I've brought it up for your information. 16 Would you like me to bring it up now? No? 17 So these sample kits for the -- for the 18 testing of the health and sort of what diseases caribou 19 might have if we come across them, has aided ENR -- ENR 20 to determine if the caribou are being negatively impacted 21 by diseases. 22 And here's some knowledge that I'd like to 23 share with you. According to our -- our records, overall 24 it seems like the caribou are fairly healthy. And last 25 year, regarding antler sizes, I was questioned or asked

1 by the Wek'eezhii Board, and through our observations we 2 had witnessed some of the largest antler sizes recorded 3 in a number of years which suggests very healthy caribou. 4 I'm just going to digress back here to 5 Slide Number 10. I believe it's the joint efforts and 6 input from all stakeholders that are needed for effective 7 barren ground caribou management. So our shared 8 knowledge will equal the wise management of barren ground 9 caribou, and like other stakeholders we want our caribou 10 to be abundant for our children. 11 We've been talking a little bit about wolf 12 harvesting. So it's another positive contribution in the 13 management of barren ground caribou. Last year 14 approximately fifty (50) wolves were harvested by the -- 15 by us, by the collective outfitters, and in doing so we 16 can approximately assume that twenty (20) caribou are 17 killed by each wolf. And so based on last year's harvest 18 of the wolf predators, it means that a thousand (1,000) 19 caribou would have been killed if we did not harvest 20 those wolves. That number is larger than our total 21 harvest of seven hundred and twenty-seven (727). 22 We also, in partnering and contributing to 23 the role of wise management of caribou, we continue and 24 we do --and continue to host and support biologists 25 studying caribou and the environment. In a recent survey

1 of our association revealed that all outfitters are 2 committed to work with the Tlicho to develop programs 3 that include youth, Elders and biologists. 4 We also donate meat to the Aboriginal 5 communities -- community-based groups like that of the 6 Food Bank, Guides and Families in Need. In 2005 over -- 7 approximately 40,000 pounds of meat was donated to the 8 communities. It was valued of a worth of four hundred 9 thousand ($400,000) dollars. This meat is priceless in 10 families -- for families in need. 11 From that eight-year (8) period from 1999 12 to 2005 -- sorry, seven (7) years), is estimated that 13 approximately 290,000 pounds of meat was donated. This 14 meat helps hungry people in the NWT and is often -- or is 15 donated at the outfitters' expense. 16 Of our outfitters -- ten (10) outfitters, 17 three (3) are HTA, Hunters and Trappers Associations 18 represented by Gameti, Wekweti and the Yellowknife's 19 Dene. Seven (7) are non-HTA outfitters; two (2) of which 20 are owned by Tlicho citizens. The majority are owned or 21 jointly owned by NWT residents and 40 percent are Tlicho 22 owned. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 MS. AMANDA PETERSON: Thank you. Sorry 2 for the interruption. So, I was talking about the man -- 3 many positive contributions that the outfitters play in 4 the management of Barren Ground caribou, and also the 5 positive contributions that we make to -- well NWT 6 communities and our partners with Aboriginal communities 7 and groups. 8 Continuing on with that. The majority -- 9 majority of us employ Aboriginal guides. Many of which - 10 - Aboriginal guides include the First -- First Nation's 11 peoples and other -- others are Inu -- Inuit or NWT 12 residents. Some are family members of the business owner 13 and many outfitters have loyal seasonal employees who 14 have been with us for many years. 15 We, the outfitters, respectfully ask the 16 Board to consider any limits shall me no greater than 17 necessary to achieve the objective where the objective 18 could reasonably be achieved if that other measure would 19 involve a lesser limitation; cited from the Tlicho 20 Agreement. 21 Respectfully, we request the Wek'eezhii 22 Board be mindful of the serious implications the proposed 23 tag cuts would have on the positive contributions that I 24 was just spoken of, as well as the grave affects on our 25 families, staff, communities and businesses. We believe

1 that before any limits can be placed on our harvest 2 levels, we must first establish the harvest from all 3 herds in the Wek'eezhii area. 4 As it stands now the tags issued from ENR are not 5 specific to any one herd. 6 We are partners in the NWT tourism 7 economy. We, approximately, bring in $4,000,000 a year 8 to the Northwest Territories. We supply over three 9 hundred (300) seasonal jobs. We support a traditional 10 lifestyle by providing jobs to those who want to work on 11 the land, and we promote and educate visitors about the 12 NWT culture, history and way of life as part of our 13 guided hunts. I guess, sort of more technical that we're 14 a -- we're a good source of tourism revenue and tax 15 income from the Northwest Territories. 16 I just like to read out a couple 17 testimonials from our visitors, many whom -- of which 18 enjoy the hunting aspect, but have an extraordinary 19 appreciation for the environment, the culture, and the 20 way of life here in the Northwest Territories. 21 Mr. Robert Willis had writt -- written in 22 and wrote: 23 "Our whole group had that experience of 24 a lifetime you promised. Whether 25 fishing or hunting, there's no place

1 like it on earth. Please save us a 2 week in 2003. I'd just like to say 3 that." 4 Well, obviously Robert had a very good 5 time and wanted to come back again. There is many other 6 quotes like that, but I'll go on with my presentation 7 since we're a bit pressed for time. 8 Susan Fleck had pointed out the other 9 factors that have cumulative impacts on the environment, 10 and here we do as well. We recognize that there are many 11 factors that have a cumulative impact on our environment 12 and the caribou. These include potential impacts of 13 global warming, mining, exploration, the use of winter 14 roads and predators. These factors may be -- it may be 15 possible to possibly be responsible for the different 16 behaviour patterns of caribou and movements to other 17 areas. 18 We have to ask ourselves: How do these 19 factors affect barren ground caribou, their survival 20 rates, general health and migration patterns? 21 In the Bathurst Caribou Management Plan 22 section on addressing hardships, it supports harvesting 23 alternate species along with caribou, be it wolves, 24 grizzly -- grizzly bears, wolverine or black bears or 25 moose, to reduce tag impacts on outfitters.

1 One (1) option to address hardships would 2 be beneficial -- that would be beneficial to both caribou 3 and the outfitters would be to diversify our hunts which 4 will help offset the proposed sudden and massive 5 reduction of caribou tags which directly affects the 6 livelihood of outfitters, their families and their 7 employees. 8 We recognize the importance of promoting 9 combination hunts and diversifying our business package, 10 but we respectfully ask -- request the right to determine 11 how we can best market our business; how to best market 12 the hunts in the Northwest Territories as long as we 13 follow the legal tag limit. We need to be able to 14 determine how we sell our hunts, be it a one (1) tag or a 15 two (2) tag hunt. It's the total number of tags that 16 really counts. 17 As mentioned, we are willing to do our 18 part, but we need time to adapt and a minimum of two (2) 19 or three (3) year business plan cycle is -- is what would 20 aid us to do that. 21 Moving along, these two (2) maps -- the 22 map on the right shows the geographic area of the Tlicho 23 Agreement and the map on the left shows three (3) or four 24 (4) caribou herds that are found in this area. Boyd 25 Warner and, I believe, John Andre will speak further to

1 these areas and the caribou herds in this area. 2 It brings up questions. There are many 3 questions related to herd identity, herd size, herd 4 status and bull/cow ratios; how their accuracy can be 5 questionable. This was shared by Mark Fraker, the 6 independent biologist with Terra Mar Consulting. He also 7 noted that herd size in the wintering range can be more 8 critical than during calving when allocating harvest. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can I interrupt there, 10 Amanda. We have an announcement here. There's a vehicle 11 parked on top the hill there by the store here. They're 12 asked to move you vehicle there. There's a truck coming 13 in with a load. So if you're parking beside the store 14 you should move your vehicle. Thank you. All right, go 15 ahead. 16 MS. AMANDA PETERSON: So there are 17 questions still that remain. Herd -- as pointed out on 18 this side here, herd identity and harvest by all users, 19 there's a seemingly rapid growth of the Ahiak herd 20 alongside the possible decline of the Bathurst herd. 21 Makes -- there seems to be some relationship there. 22 We know that caribou counts are best 23 estimates of migratory herds which split and intermingle. 24 Caribou surveys are not done yearly and we question the 25 accuracy; seem to be done unmethodolic -- or done without

1 too much meth -- method. I guess, the -- the years that 2 are surveyed, they're not done yearly so just that their 3 accuracy is limited. 4 We'd like to work together with the 5 Wek'eezhii Renewable Resource Board, ENR and independent 6 Biologists to review and build on the current 7 information. This way we'll have more confidence in the 8 numbers and be able to paint a clearer picture of the 9 status of the Barren Ground Caribou. And at the same 10 point in time, we'd like to encourage an independent 11 audit of the numbers. 12 I just want to review that outfit -- 13 outfitters, we -- our businesses, our families, our 14 guides, we're -- we positively contribute to the role of 15 the management of Bath -- Barren Ground caribou. We have 16 a base of what we call outfitter knowledge, which we 17 would -- we are more than willing and would love to 18 share. 19 We contribute meat to families and 20 communities. We support Biologists in caribou research 21 at our places of business. We record wolf numbers. We - 22 - pardon me -- we reduce wolf numbers. We harvest wolves 23 which therefore reduce predation on caribou. We collect 24 tissue samples and report on caribou health. 25 We benefit the Northwest Territories

1 economy and wages and taxes. We have a commitment to 2 program development with elders and youth. And we offer 3 alternative employment with a traditional lifestyle. So 4 for those not working, want to work at large industry 5 careers or if they want to supplement their lifestyle 6 with their traditional way of life, we offer that for 7 them. 8 Barren Ground Caribou Outfitters 9 appreciate having a voice in the wise use and management 10 of this important resource. Mahsi Cho. 11 We had a hope -- thank you very much. 12 We'd like to -- I -- I hope you recognize that we are 13 stake holders and we play an active role in the 14 management and preservation of Barren Ground caribou for 15 now and future generations. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Amanda. You 17 -- thank you for being within the time. And we call upon 18 John Andre, the next presenter. 19 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 20 I'd like to thank the Wek'eezhii Board and the Tlicho 21 Nation for hosting us here today. I'd like to thank the 22 Wek'eezhii Board in particular for granting us a stay of 23 execution when the ENR came to us in December 15th with 24 two -- two (2) business days notice and tried to shut 25 down our industry.

1 The three -- three (3) month time frame 2 between then and now has allowed us to do quite a bit of 3 research and this presentation is based on that research. 4 In -- in a short forty (40) minute time frame, it's hard 5 to communicate everything that I've learned, but at least 6 this will be the highlights. Thank you. 7 This presentation is based almost entirely 8 on the Government of the Northwest Territories own words 9 and it's on the numbers. 10 The Bathurst caribou in decline. What ENR 11 is telling the Tlicho people is that the Bathurst Herd 12 has decline 5 percent every year since 1986 from four 13 hundred and seventy-six thousand (476,000) down to a 14 hundred and twenty-eight thousand (128,000); that is the 15 reason that the Tlicho Government has recommended taking 16 the industry down to three hundred and fifty (350) tags 17 for this year and zero tags in the near future. 18 Given the information that they have to 19 work with, that is a logical recommendation. The problem 20 is they are not really seeing, or being told all the 21 facts. These numbers, in our opinion, aren't meant to 22 scare the Tlicho Nation, they're not based on a reality. 23 This is what Susan Fleck said January 26,19 -- or 2007: 24 "In the late 1990s' we started 25 documenting a decline, and the surveys

1 that we've done now show a 70 percent 2 decline in most of the herds." 3 This would certainly represent a very 4 serious situation. 5 The herd numbers for Barren Ground caribou 6 in the NWT, according to the Government, in 1980s' were 7 as follows: Sixty-five thousand (65,000) for the 8 Bluenose; a hundred forty thousand (140,000) for the 9 Bathurst; a hundred ten thousand (110,000) for the 10 Beverly; and thirty-nine thousand (39,000) for the 11 Qamanirjuag. That's a total of three hundred fifty-four 12 thousand (345,000) caribou in 1980. 13 Now in 2006, instead of the four (4) 14 herds, we now have seven (7) herds. Those numbers total 15 1 million one hundred eighty-eight thousand (1,188,000) 16 caribou in 2006, if you add them all up. This is a 17 comparison graph of the 1980 versus 2006. This 18 represents a 336 percent increase in the number of 19 caribou in the Northwest Territories. 20 Please understand this is the Government's 21 numbers, not mine. I've not done any independent 22 research, or any surveys, or anything of that nature; 23 this is what the Government is telling us. 24 These figures here on wolf harvest is from 25 the 1996 Bathurst Management Plan, and you can see in the

1 year 1980 we had a -- quit a substantial wolf harvest, it 2 was over seven hundred (700) that year, and that is the 3 exact year that the caribou numbers started to increase. 4 Rich Cloth ENR Wolf Biologist said in 2003 5 that there are approximately fifty-five hundred (5,500) 6 wolves in the Northwest Territories. Ray Case of the ENR 7 in 1996 said wolves take somewhere between fifteen (15) 8 and thirty (30) caribou a year. Using Ray's figures, 9 that would mean that wolves are harvesting somewhere 10 between eight-seven thousand five hundred (87,500) to a 11 hundred sixty-five thousand (165,000) caribou a year. If 12 we have a caribou problem, it is a wolf problem, not an 13 outfitter problem, and not an Aboriginal harvesting 14 problem. 15 Wolves are killing between fifteen (15) and thirty (30) 16 times the annual human harvest. 17 This is the trend line from 1980 to 2006, 18 over a quarter century of the caribou being monitored in 19 the GNWT. The government independently confirmed that 20 our numbers, which we took off their website in 2005 when 21 it reported to the Federal Government, this was a survey 22 regarding chronic wasting disease. 23 They reported 1,534,000 caribou in the 24 Northwest territories. This was a $1,000,300 survey, 25 that the Government did to get a base line of caribou

1 numbers and of observed numbers, all over -- Canada, and 2 this is the number that Susan Fleck, who's the head of 3 wildlife in the GNWT, and is on the Board of Directors of 4 that Federal Government body, that is the number that she 5 reported. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: John, could I ask you 7 to slow down a little bit? Interpreters. 8 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Surely, I'm sorry. I'm 9 trying to get through. Anne Gunn, who the GNWT Caribou 10 Biologist, said this in 2001: 11 "By the 1990's it became obvious that 12 the herds of Barren Ground caribou 13 range referred to Rangifer tarandus 14 groenlandicus, had increased in size up 15 to five (5) fold. Currently, on the 16 main land tundra, the four (4) largest 17 herd of Barren Ground caribou, the 18 Bathurst, Beverly, Qamanirjuag, and 19 Queen Maud Gulf; the Queen Maud Gulf is 20 the renamed Ahiak herd. Totalled 1.4 21 million caribou in the mid 1990's and 22 are probably stable and increasing." 23 This is what she said in 2001 in the 24 Conservation of Exploited Species. Why would she say 25 that a herd, the Government now claims has been crashing,

1 had been increasing five (5) fold over the last twenty 2 (20) years. Please remember, this is all based on the 3 Government's numbers, not mine. 4 In the year 2000 the ENR created three (3) 5 new herds. In 1986, when we start with our baseline of 6 information the four hundred seventy-six thousand 7 (476,000) caribou that we were crashing from, there were 8 four (4) herds of mainland caribou; the Bluenose, the 9 Bathurst, the Beverly and the Qamanirjuag. In 2006 we 10 have the Cape Bathurst, the Bluenose West, and the 11 Bluenose East, the Bathurst caribou, the Ahiak caribou, 12 the Beverly, and the Qamanirjuag. 13 Now lets see what's happening with the 14 once mighty Bathurst herd, and the reason for it 15 crashing. This is the GNWT's map; the black part is 16 mine, I've coloured that in. This is what is -- was 17 formerly exclusive Bathurst caribou. This is what is 18 left of exclusive Bathurst caribou. This is an over an 19 80 percent reduction in what is exclusively Bathurst 20 country. 21 Now we've got seven (7) herds that are 22 cris-crossing in what was once Bathurst caribou. I'd 23 like you to get a look at that again. This is what is 24 was before 19 -- or before 1999, before the creation of 25 the new herds, and this is what is left. Well, if you

1 take me and cut off my four (4) arms, or two (2) arms and 2 two (2) legs, I am not going to be as large as I am 3 before, and that's exactly what's happened here. We've 4 reduced the definition of the Bathurst caribou. 5 The splitting of herds in counting caribou 6 in only of these herds and then applying these numbers to 7 previous surveyed complete herds is the heart of our 8 argument with the Department of Environmental Resources. 9 For forty (40) years we had four (4) 10 herds, but now we have seven (7). The creation of the 11 Ahiak herd was clearly the separation of caribou out of 12 the tradition Bathurst caribou calving ground, and 13 overall annual range. It was not simply the renaming of 14 the Queen Maud Gulf herd as the Government maintains. 15 In 1986 the Queen Maud Gulf herd, which 16 had always been thought of as ra -- rather obscure 17 relatively unstudied herd, had population of ten thousand 18 (10,000). Here is the population in 1986, it had ten 19 thousand (10,000) caribou, and in 1996 it had two hundred 20 thousand (200,000) caribou. Those caribou, in our 21 opinion, came out of the Bathurst herd, that's absolutely 22 biologically impossible for a herd to go from ten 23 thousand (10,000) caribou in 1986 to two hundred thousand 24 (200,000) in 1996. 25 The area here in yellow on the right, is

1 what is now considered Ahiak Country. It is the largest 2 area of any herd in the Northwest territories as far as 3 where it roams. The question that we have with the 4 Government is, how can a herd that covers that much 5 country, all around Yellowknife and the various towns, 6 how can it possibly be escaping all harvest; that is the 7 numbers that they've presented to you, that there was not 8 one (1) caribou from the Ahiak herd harvested in 2005 and 9 2006. That, in our mind, is an impossibility. 10 If the Ahiak herd is the third largest 11 herd in the NWT, according to the ENR, what took the ENR 12 forty (40) years to find it? 13 I've read all the research, I've looked at 14 it carefully. Why all of the sudden did they find this 15 herd in 2000? It's simply the splitting of the Bathurst 16 herd, it is not a new herd that was suddenly found. Anne 17 Gunn said this on the Queen Maud Gulf herd: 18 "Unlike Bathurst, Beverly, Qamanirjuag 19 caribou herds, which occupy most of the 20 central and eastern mainland, caribou 21 on a northeast mainland do not migrate 22 between calving areas on the tundra and 23 winter ranges within the boreal 24 forest." 25 Well if these caribou that are the Queen

1 Maud Gulf caribou don't migrate, how can they be going 2 all the way from the Arctic Ocean down to the Alberta 3 border? That -- that simply doesn't make sense. 4 Obviously these migrating caribou are the eastern portion 5 of the Bathurst caribou. 6 Here are the Ahiak harvest levels which 7 the Government attributed to that herd. As you can see, 8 it attributed zero Aboriginal, zero resident, and zero 9 non-resident harvest. 10 In 1996 Ray Case said this in the status 11 and management of the Bathurst caribou herd: 12 "Communities around the Bathurst range 13 harvest up to sixteen thousand eight 14 hundred (16,800) caribou per year. 15 Many of these hunters also have access 16 to caribou from the Bluenose, Beverly, 17 Victoria Island, and Northeast Mainland 18 herds. Thus, some of the reported 19 harvest may not come from the Bathurst 20 herd." 21 If we are harvesting Beverly -- from the 22 Beverly herd which is to the east, and the Ahiak herd 23 range is between the Bathurst herd and the Beverly herd, 24 how can it possibly be escaping all human harvest as the 25 ENR asserts? The hunters are not riding by Ahiak herd on

1 the -- on the way to Beverly caribou. It's not that the 2 Ahiak herd tastes better or -- or the Beverly herd tastes 3 better -- anything like that, this is not simply what 4 hunters would do. If they come across Ahiak caribou, 5 they would harvest them, at least my hunters would. 6 The Aboriginal harvest is down, according 7 to the ENR, from sixteen thousand eight hundred (16,800) 8 in 1996 to forty-five hundred (4,500) in 2006. This in 9 our opinion is probably a factor of -- of more jobs, a 10 better economy, and more of a cash economy as opposed -- 11 as opposed to a subsistence economy. 12 If the Aboriginal harvest is down 73 13 percent in the last ten (10) years according to the ENR, 14 why is the ENR recommending to the Wek'eezhii Board to 15 close down winter roads to hunting for the Tlicho Nation? 16 That simply doesn't make any sense to us. 17 This is the justification for the creation 18 of the Ahiak herd and this is what Anne Gunn said in 19 2002. 20 "Relatively little has been reported 21 about the Ahiak herd, but the 22 justification for identifying it as a 23 separate herd from the Bathurst herd 24 was based on 1996 to 1998 satellite 25 telemetry and that caribou from the

1 Ahiak herd are genetically distinct 2 from both the Beverly and the Bathurst 3 herd based on nuclear DNA." 4 And she cites Kary Zittslau's unpublished 5 data to support that. 6 Here is what Cary Zitlau actually said in 7 2003 and you can just read the conclusion. Zitlau 8 eventually concluded that because the continental herds 9 are so large, some herds have not yet developed features 10 that are distinct from their neighbours. 11 So basically what she is saying is there 12 is not any DNA evidence to create these separate herds. 13 The caribou here are rangifer tarandus groenlandicus. 14 That is a subspecies. That is as far down the -- the DNA 15 chain as -- as scientists go. There is no such thing as 16 separate herds created by DNA. 17 This is the Bathurst calving ground prior 18 to the creation of the Ahiak herd in -- in the year 2000. 19 As you can see on the east side is where the caribou 20 calved -- the Bathurst caribou calved prior to 1986. In 21 '86 they started to shift here south of -- of the inlet 22 and then in the '90s they calved over here on the west 23 side of the inlet. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 MR. JOHN ANDRE: This is the Bathurst 2 calving ground now that we've created the Ahiak herd. As 3 you can see, everything to the east side is now Ahiak 4 calving ground. Everything to the west side of the inlet 5 is Bathurst calving ground. 6 With the creation of the Ahiak herd, the 7 definition of the Bathurst herd changed from what it was 8 in 1986. In order to compare the status of the herds 9 between 1986 and 2006, we must be using the same 10 definition. This is not rocket science and the 11 outfitters have repeatedly pointed this out to the ENR, 12 but they have ignored us. Certainly the ENR understands 13 the scientific method and that you simply can't compare 14 apples to oranges. 15 This is the formula that we've come up 16 with for converting the new Bathurst herd to conform with 17 the old Bathurst herd so that you can compare apples to 18 apples. 19 When you plug in the numbers into that 20 formula, and it's a very simple formula, you simply add 21 the hundred and twenty-eight thousand (128,000) that we 22 have in the Bathurst herd plus the two hundred thousand 23 (200,000) that the Government says we have in the Ahiak 24 herd. You subtract the old Queen Maud Gulf herd and then 25 add about half of the Bluenose herd, which is the

1 territory that the Government, when they split the herds, 2 swiped out of the old Bathurst range. It comes to three 3 hundred and fifty-one thousand (351,000) caribou. 4 Since 1990 to 1996 and now to the year 5 2006 this is the actual herd numbers for the Bathurst 6 herd when you're comparing herds of the same definition. 7 Three hundred and fifty-two thousand (352,000) in 1990, 8 three hundred and forty-nine thousand (349,000) in 1996, 9 three hundred and fifty-one thousand (351,000) in 2006. 10 This is what the Government is telling 11 everybody. The Bathurst herd has declined 5 percent 12 every year since 1986. This is what you're being told 13 over and over and over again, and this is the basis of 14 the Tlicho Government's recommendation to close down our 15 industry. 16 Here's what Dr. Ray Case said of the ENR 17 in 1996, about that 1986 survey: 18 "The very large increase of 280 percent 19 in Bathurst herd size observed between 20 1982, when it was a hundred and 21 seventy-four thousand (174,000) and in 22 1986 when it was four hundred and 23 eighty-six thousand (486,000), was 24 likely due to a combination of 25 increased recruitment and immigration.

1 It is possible that caribou from the 2 Queen Maud Gulf herd, where caribou 3 inhabit the tundra year round, may have 4 been included in the Bathurst calving 5 ground survey." 6 So basically what Ray is saying there is 7 the two (2) herds got together and they had a bad survey; 8 that happens frequently. In 1993 they surveyed the 9 Beverly herd at eighty-seven thousand (87,000) caribou. 10 They re-surveyed it in 1994, had two hundred and sixty- 11 seven (267,000) caribou. So the -- problems with these 12 surveys is not unusual. 13 Here we have the Bathurst caribou going 14 from a hundred and seventy-four thousand (174,000) to 15 four hundred and seventy-two thousand (472,000) in four 16 (4) years; that's simply a biological impossibility. The 17 question is why hasn't Ray, as part of the leadership of 18 the ENR, stepped in and said hey guys, wait a minute. We 19 shouldn't be showing that 1986 number. We know two (2) 20 herds got together there. We should be showing a more -- 21 a certain number. 22 They have two (2) surveys in 1990 and 1996 23 showing that the herd was stable. That basically the 24 same number, three hundred -- yeah, three hundred and 25 forty-nine thousand (349,000) and three hundred and

1 fifty-one thousand (351,000) two (2) -- two (2) surveys 2 running. 3 What this shows is the use of statistics - 4 - the reason there wasn't management actions in 1986 to 5 1990 is because statistically the four hundred and 6 seventy-two thousand (472,000) is the same number as 7 three hundred and fifty-two thousand (352,000). The 8 confidence levels overlap, so statistically that is not a 9 change. 10 Likewise, the 2003 survey versus the 2006 11 survey is statistically insignificant. When you're doing 12 a survey, this not a census. There are statistics used 13 when you survey a small portion of the herd and then you 14 extrapolate those numbers out to the entire herd. This 15 is the reason that many jurisdictions, particularly 16 Alaska, have gone to post-calving ground censuses which 17 is an actual count as opposed to the pep -- calving 18 ground survey which uses statistics and creates a lot of 19 issues. 20 In 2001 the Bathurst Herd started to 21 split. As you can see, here's the inlet and this is the 22 peak of calving in 2001. You see some collared caribou 23 on the west side of the inlet and you see quite a few 24 more caribou on the east side of the inlet. The problem 25 is now that these caribou over here are Ahiak caribou and

1 these over here are Bathurst caribou. 2 This area here is where the caribou were 3 surveyed in 2006 by Bruno Croft. They take a snapshot of 4 this area and then -- that is where most of the collared 5 cows were and then they extrapolate those numbers out to 6 rest of the herd. 7 This is Anne Gunn's slide from 2002. She 8 was -- it was a calving ground mapping of the Bathurst 9 and Ahiak caribou. As you can see, there's a lot more 10 caribou here on the east side of the inlet as opposed 11 over the -- on the west side. 12 If they'd done a calving ground survey 13 here this year, in 2002, as you can see there's very few 14 caribou there. They wouldn't have had very many caribou 15 in this herd at all. 16 In the year 2003, as you can see, there 17 were 43 percent of the collared cows that were not on the 18 Bathurst Inlet. That would help explain why the survey 19 only came up with a hundred and eighty-six thousand 20 (186,000) caribou. As you can see we've got caribou over 21 here and scattered all through here as well as down here 22 and here. 23 Now understand that -- as you can see 24 these are all Bathurst caribou, 43 percent of them were 25 not on the calving ground. This is the peak of calving

1 in 2005. 2 Only four (4) of the collared cows are on 3 the Bathurst calving ground. Understand that each of 4 these collared caribou between 1997 and 2003 they had an 5 average of ten and a half (10 1/2) cows that were 6 collared. That represents somewhere -- about thirty-five 7 thousand (35,000) caribou per collar, if we're using a 8 definition of three hundred and fifty thousand (350,000) 9 caribou. 10 You can see very few caribou are on the 11 calving ground. This is the reason, in my opinion, that 12 the -- the following spring when ENR did a survey of the 13 calf survival they only found nine (9) caribou. What 14 happens folks is when these caribou are here like this it 15 means you've had a lot of snow and they did not get to 16 the calving grounds. 17 When they get to this area here -- the 18 reason they go to the calving grounds or one of the main 19 reasons is because of -- there's fewer predators there. 20 When they have their calves in here, they are much more 21 subject to predation because this area has a lot more 22 eskers in it and therefore more wolf dens. 23 And I think the reason that that calf 24 survival rate was so low and that Ernie Campbell was so - 25 - so upset about and rightfully so, is that because where

1 these caribou calved in 2005, they simply did not have a 2 good survival rate. Excuse me folks, I'm having a 3 technical difficulty here. 4 This is where the caribou were in 2006. 5 As you can see, 32 percent of the collared cows were not 6 on the calving ground. Now at -- at this particular 7 juncture we've started to -- to -- the Government's 8 changed. They've started to -- to -- these are now 9 adjacent herds. I'm not -- I'm not 100 percent sure how 10 that's defined exactly, so some of these -- these are now 11 Ahiak caribou I'm sure and these are -- that's probably a 12 Bluenose East caribou. 13 Now, we have to talk about the Cape 14 Bathurst herd. What does the Cape Bathurst herd have to 15 do with the Wek'eezhii Board? In the ENR's proposal to 16 the WRRB page 1 cites the closing down of hunting in the 17 Sahtu/Inuvik region as a precedent to closing down 18 outfitting in Region "R". If we're going to seek the 19 truth, let's seek it for all First Nation groups. 20 Following is the bogus science that created the Cape 21 Bathurst herd. 22 This is the traditional Bluenose, 23 Bathurst, and Beverly herd ranges. Here is the Bluenose 24 herd before the creation of the three (3) herds -- the 25 three (3) Bluenose herds.

1 This is now the Cape Bathurst herd. It 2 was created in 2000. Hunting here has been closed down 3 because of the -- the -- hunting here now has been closed 4 down because of the crashing of that Cape Bathurst herd. 5 This is from the GNWT website. 6 "The Cape Bathurst herd was first 7 censussed as a distinct herd in 2000. 8 Data obtained during photo-census 9 survey completed on the Bluenose herd 10 in 1987 was re-analysed to estimate 11 population trends." 12 That particular document which was created 13 in 2006 -- it took them seven (7) years to write up a 14 survey that put people out of business. The survey was 15 done in 2000, I received the document in 2007. It is 16 still marked as a draft, so those people up there in the 17 Sahtu/Inuvik Region, they were put out of business based 18 on a document that the Government has not yet written. 19 I would assume that if a scientist finds a 20 new herd, the Cape Bathurst herd, surveyed for the first 21 time in the year 2000 that he would be pretty excited 22 about it and yet it has taken them seven (7) years to 23 write up that document and it is still in a draft form. 24 In the 1978/'79 Bluenose caribou they said 25 this:

1 "Calving might have occurred on the 2 Bathurst Peninsula, however, in 3 1978/'79 we sighted one (1) cow and 4 then the following year three (3) 5 cows." 6 Virtually no caribou were on that Cape 7 Bathurst Peninsula two (2) straight years and the same 8 thing happened again in 1981. Somehow they missed the 9 three (3) years that virtually no caribou calved on the 10 Cape Bathurst Peninsula. If there's no -- if it's not a 11 constant calving ground, then that herd is going to 12 eventually crash and the Government knew that. 13 Anne Gunn recognized that -- that she -- 14 she did know that when she said the latter calving area, 15 when she's talking about the Bathurst Peninsula which was 16 reported to have been permanently abandoned. So they 17 knew that this herd was going to crash because it is not 18 a separate calving ground. 19 They also cite DNA evidence to support the 20 creation of that herd. As you'll see there she cites 21 Zitlau in 2003. Well, how if you create a herd in the 22 year 2000 can you cite research done in 2003? That 23 simply doesn't make any sense. 24 Nagy and Bucher who did that report say 25 there are three (3) calving grounds and two (2) rutting

1 areas. Following is a map of the overlap showing the 2 Cape Bathurst area -- rutting area with the Bluenose West 3 calving or -- rutting area and the Bluenose East calving 4 or -- excuse me, rutting area. 5 If they overlap in the bedroom, that means 6 the genetic pool overlaps. Where they calve has nothing 7 to do with genetics. How can you have separate herds if 8 the rutting areas overlap? 9 Cooking the books. This is what John Nagy 10 said: 11 "Based on re-analysis of the 1987 data, 12 the Bluenose West and the Cape Bathurst 13 herds were estimated at ninety-eight 14 thousand (98,000) and fourteen thousand 15 (14,000) caribou. Fourteen thousand 16 five hundred and twenty-nine (14,529) 17 caribou in the reworked survey." 18 What he did is he -- he wanted to create a 19 trend line from the year 2000 so he went back and looked, 20 so he says, at the 1987 survey. This is the what the 21 Government forgot to tell the Sahtu Area Co-Management 22 Board. In the 1987 survey re-worked to come up with a 23 Cape Bathurst population of fourteen thousand five 24 hundred and twenty-nine (14,529) caribou, it says on page 25 12:

1 "Animals in the Bathurst Peninsula area 2 did not aggregate suitably for 3 photography, although the number of 4 caribou was estimated at twenty-five 5 hundred (2,500)." 6 Well how can John Nagy have counted 7 fourteen thousand five hundred and twenty-nine (14,529) 8 caribou if there were no photographs; that's an 9 impossibility. It simply can't happen. The counting -- 10 counting caribou on photographs that don't exist. 11 There's something amiss here, folks. I'm not sure what 12 it is, but that's the facts of the matter. 13 This is what the effect of that survey and 14 the created crashing was to the people up there. 15 "For the most severely affected Cape 16 Bathurst herd, recommendations from the 17 co-management boards to close resident, 18 non-resident and commercial hunting 19 have been implemented." 20 Well, the reason that co-management board 21 closed the hunting down is because it was misinformed. 22 The Inuvialuit Co-Management Board based its decision on 23 faulty information supplied to it by the ENR. How can 24 the co-management of wildlife succeed if the GNWT is 25 going to supply the board with faulty information.

1 This is the Government trend line that 2 they showed everybody up there. Fourteen thousand five 3 hundred and twenty-nine (14,529) caribou in 1987 down to 4 twenty-four hundred (2,400) caribou in 2005. Well, of 5 course they closed down the hunting. This is a very 6 similar situation to what the Wek'eezhi Board is facing 7 right here today. 8 This is the actual trend line from 1987 to 9 2005. This is not a crashing caribou herd and yet they 10 took those peoples' caribou tags away. 11 The numbers simply don't add up. They say 12 there was fourteen thousand (14,000) caribou in the 13 Bathurst or the Cape Bathurst herd and a hundred and one 14 thousand (101,000) caribou in the Bluenose West herd. 15 That leaves a minus two hundred and forty thousand 16 (240,000) or minus two hundred and forty (240) caribou in 17 the Bluenose East herd which Brent Patterson, in 2000, 18 said had a hundred four thousand (104,000) caribou in it. 19 This is simply an impossibility. This 20 government's numbers are not adding up. In 1981 the 21 entire Bluenose herd had thirty-eight thousand (38,000) 22 caribou in it. In 2006 it has eighty-seven thousand 23 eight hundred (87,800) caribou. Why didn't the 24 Government show us this trend line? 25 Ignoring Aboriginal knowledge and input.

1 Joesphy Arey an Aklavik-born hunter and a member of the 2 Inuvialuit Game Council said they would have been the 3 first to notice. I didn't even know they were declining 4 until they told me they were. They told me -- he said 5 migration patterns have changed which may have led to 6 inaccuracies in the Government's information. 7 In late January of 2007, I spoke with Mr. 8 James Pokiak, an outfitter from Tuk who had his caribou 9 tags confiscated by the Government. He told me that he 10 argued with ENR for two and a half (2 1/2) years about 11 their science. He said he didn't have a PhD next to his 12 name, so they wouldn't listen to him. He finally gave up 13 his tags saying, who am I to fight the Government. 14 This is not -- this is coercion, not co- 15 management. The government tells us the survey shows a 16 hundred twenty-eight thousand (128,000)caribou in the 17 split Bathurst her. But like the First Nation Outfitters 18 in Inuvik, the Government won't give us the survey for us 19 to examine. Co-management is about -- co-management is 20 about sharing information so that decisions can be made 21 working together. 22 The survey was done nine (9) months ago. 23 The outfitters and MLA's have asked repeatedly for this 24 survey. We hope that WRRB will request it also, since 25 this document is the basis for destroyed the outfitting

1 industry. We're -- I'm going to skip a few things here. 2 I've only got five (5) minutes folks. Okay. 3 These caribou are shifting East, that's 4 what's happening here. Anne Gunn said that the Bathurst, 5 Qamanirjuaq and Ahiak herds were crowding onto the 6 Beverly Range. She said that in 2001. As we can see 7 here they clearly are shifting to the East. In 2005/2006 8 the Qamanirjuaq Board said this: 9 "There was a spectacular abundance of 10 caribou in Nunavut's Kivalliq Region 11 between 2005/2006. There were no 12 reports received on unhealthy caribou.' 13 I saw the same thin