1 WEK'EEZHII RENEWABLE 2 RESOURCES BOARD 3 PUBLIC HEARING 4 5 ENR PROPOSAL ON BATHURST 6 CARIBOU HERD MANAGEMENT ACTIONS 7 8 9 10 Panel Members: 11 Facilitator Alfonz Nitsiza 12 Member Eddie Erasmus 13 Member Grant Pryznyk 14 Member Bruce MacDonald 15 Member Joseph Judas 16 Member Ray Case 17 Member Ernie Campbell 18 19 20 HELD AT: 21 22 Cultural Centre 23 Behchoko, NT 24 March 13th, 2007 25 Day 1 of 2

1 APPEARANCES 2 John Donihee )Board Counsel 3 4 Rick Salter )Tlicho Government 5 Bertha Rabesca Zoe ) 6 7 John Andre )Barren Ground Caribou 8 Boyd Warner )Outfitters Association 9 Jim Peterson ) 10 Amanda Peterson ) 11 Barry Taylor ) 12 13 Claudia Haas )North Slave Metis 14 Sheryl Grieve (np) )Alliance 15 16 Darren Pickup )ENR 17 Susan Fleck ) 18 Bruno Croft ) 19 Dean Cluff ) 20 21 Andy McMullen )Bearwise 22 Boyd Warner )NWT Tourism 23 24 Rachel Crapeau )Yellowknives Dene 25 )First Nation

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page No. 3 List Of Exhibits 4 4 5 Opening Comments 9 6 7 Presentation by ENR 27 8 Question Period 51 9 10 11 Reporter's Certificate 101 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 1 The Bathurst Caribou Management 4 Planning Committee. A management 5 plan for the Bathurst Caribou Herd. 16 6 2 Dogrib Knowledge on Placenames, Caribou 7 and Habitat. An unpublished report by 8 the West Katikmeot Slave study. 17 9 3 Caribou Migration and the State of 10 their habitat. 17 11 4 Exploring possible causes for the 12 decline of the Bathurst Herd of 13 Barren ground Caribou using 14 demographic modelling. 18 15 5 Review of the Caribou project- an 16 assessment of techniques and their 17 application. An unpublished report 18 by the Department of Renewable 19 Resources. 18 20 6 Caribou census methods used in the 21 Northwest Territories, by Doug Heard. 19 22 23 24 25

1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 7 1999 publication entitled Contrasts in 4 use and perception of biological data 5 for Caribou management by D.R. Klein, 6 Elle Moorehead, Jay Kruse, and S.R. 7 Braund. 19 8 8 Report on Calving ground census 9 workshop by G. Mowat. 20 10 9 Publication by Doug Urquahart from 1981 11 entitled, The Bathurst Herd, A review 12 and Analysis of Information Concerning 13 the Bathurst Herd of Barren Ground 14 Caribou in the NWT for the Period 15 6000 BC to 1980 AD. 20 16 10 Paper by D.C. Thomas from 1988 17 entitled, Needed: Less Counting of 18 Caribou and More Ecology. 20 19 11 Report by R. Zalatan, A. Gunn and 20 G.H.R. Henry, dated 2006, entitled, 21 Long Term Abundance Patterns of 22 Barren Ground Caribou Using Trampling 23 Scars on Roots of Spruce in the 24 Northwest Territories. 21 25

1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 12 Report by R.P. Graf and D.C. Heard 4 dated 1990, entitled, Spreadsheet Model 5 of the Beverly and Kaminuriak Caribou 6 Herds, The Results of the November 7 1985 Workshop. 21 8 13 An unpublished report from 1999 by the 9 Department of Human Resources for the 10 Dogrib Tribal Council entitled, The 11 1987 to 1993 Dogrib Harvest Study. 22 12 14 Paper by J. Boulanger, K. Poole, B. 13 Fournier, J. Wierzcoswksi, T. Gaines 14 and A. Gunn, entitled, Assessment of 15 Bathurst Caribou Movements and 16 Distribution in the Slave Geological 17 Province Northwest Territories. 22 18 15 A map from ENR with fire history for 19 the Bathurst Winter Range from 1980 20 to 2006. 23 21 16 A paper from Environment and Natural 22 Resources, dated 2007, An Estimate of 23 Breeding Females in the Bathurst Herd 24 of Barren Ground Caribou, dated June 25 2006. 23

1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 17 Paper by A. Gunn and J. Nishi, J. 4 Boulanger and J. Williams, dated 2005, 5 An Estimate of Breeding Females in the 6 Bathurst Herd of Barren Ground Caribou 7 of June 2003 24 8 18 Paper by A. Gunn, J. Boulanger and J. 9 Williams, dated 2005, entitled, Calf 10 Survival and Fall Sex Ratios in the 11 Bathurst Herd of Barren Ground Caribou 12 in the period 2000 to 2004. 24 13 19 A paper by A. Gunn, J. Dragon and J. 14 Boulanger, dated 2001, Seasonal 15 Movements of Satellite Collared 16 Caribou from the Bathurst Herd. 25 17 20 By Griffiths, Gunn, D. Russell, J. 18 Johnstone, K. Kielland, S. Wolfe and 19 D.C. Douglas, dated 2001, Bathurst 20 Caribou Calving Ground Studies, 21 Influence of Nutrition in Human 22 Activity on Cabbing Ground Location. 25 23 21 Sutherland, M and A. Gunn, 1996, 24 Bathurst Calving Ground Surveys, 1965 25 to 1996. 26

1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (Con't) 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 22 By Williams, M.T. and D, Fournier, 4 dated 1996, Summary of Spring 5 Classification Surveys of the Bathurst 6 Caribou Herd 1985 to 1995 by the 7 Government of the Northwest 8 Territories. 26 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:50 a.m. 2 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Good 4 morning. Thanks for your patience there. We will start 5 with the prayer. We'll ask one (1) of the Elder from 6 Behchoko to do the opening prayer for us, Frances 7 Williah. 8 9 (OPENING PRAYER) 10 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. I would 12 like to welcome everybody here and we'll have the Chief 13 from Behchoko who'd like to make the opening remark. 14 Chief Leon...? 15 CHIEF LEON LAFFERTY: (NATIVE LANGUAGE 16 SPOKEN) 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Chief Leon. 18 Before I go on to my opening remarks just a few 19 announcements. First of all, we are a little delayed 20 this morning. We have people from Pido Production that 21 set up the equipment here yesterday, but on the way back 22 to Yellowknife they got into a vehicle accident. So, we 23 are just glad that they are safe. I understand that the 24 other vehicle was a write-off. 25 So that was the reason for their coming

1 back this morning a little late. So, we are just glad 2 they are here. Just show that everybody in meetings are 3 very important in the proceeding. 4 And also, on the other announcement, in 5 Behchoko here, we lost an elderly woman two (2) days ago, 6 so they are having a funeral here in Behchoko at two 7 o'clock this afternoon. She was ninety-five (95) years 8 old, a grandmother of Tlicho Nation. And, as always, 9 Tlicho Nation when the one of the members pass on, they 10 stop whatever they do and pay their respects. 11 In keeping with tradition, we will stop 12 the Hearing at around 1:30 this afternoon, adjourn it for 13 the day and we will go continue on tomorrow at 9:00 a.m. 14 So with that, thank you. And I would like 15 to welcome everybody, I guess, the first Wek'eezhii 16 Renewable Resource Board hearing, public hearing. My 17 name is Alphonz Nitsiza, I am the Chair of Wek'eezhii 18 Renewable Resource Board. 19 The Renewable Resource Board was 20 established as a result of the implementation of Tlicho 21 Agreement on August 4th, 2005. The Wek'eezhii Renewable 22 Resources Board is responsible for the management of 23 wildlife and other renewable resources within the 24 Wek'eezhii management area as set out by Tlicho 25 Agreement.

11
  1                 The Wek'eezhii Renewable Resource Board is
  2  a co-management board.  Fifty percent of our board
  3  members are appointed by the Tlicho Government and 50
  4  percent are appointed by the Government of Canada and the
  5  Government of Northwest Territory.  We operate as a
  6  institution of public government and are responsible for
  7  acting in public interests.
  8                 At this point, I would like to introduce
  9  the other board members.
 10                 Bruce MacDonald and Grant Pryznyk are the
 11  Federal appointees.  And I have Dr. Ray Case and Ernie
 12  Campbell are from the Government of Northwest
 13  Territories.  Appointees from the Tlicho Governments are
 14  Joseph Judas and Eddie Erasmus and myself.
 15                 I am the interim chair and have been
 16  nominated by the Board to be a permanent chair.
 17                 We have with us today, Rob Marshall, our
 18  Executive Director.  John Donihee, our legal counsel and
 19  Patty Magrum, our Administrative Coordinator.  
 20                 Over the next few days the Wek'eezhii
 21  Renewable Resources Board will conduct a hearing into a
 22  wildlife management proposal filed with us on December
 23  15, 2006 by the Department and Environmental --
 24  Environment and Natural Resources.  Specifically in our
 25  proposal contains proposed monitoring and management

1 action for Bathurst Caribou hurt. 2 Upon review of ENR proposal, the 3 Wek'eezhii Renewable Resources Board decided to hold a 4 public hearing to permit all interested parties an 5 opportunity to comment on the actions proposed by ENR. 6 Public notice of the hearing was advertised in News/North 7 on February 12th, 19th and the 26th and in the 8 Yellowknifer newspaper on February 16th and 23rd. 9 The Board's Executive Director has worked 10 -- has been working with the parties to ensure that this 11 hearing process runs smoothly and that the Board secures 12 the information that it needs to respond to the ENR 13 proposal. 14 I would like to make a note that these 15 proceedings are being recorded and will be transcribed 16 later, therefore I ask that when you speak, please 17 proceed with your presentation, with your name and who 18 you represent. Also I ask that you please be mindful 19 that we also have interpreters and that these proceedings 20 are being translated so that please pace yourself 21 accordingly. 22 The order of proceeding will be as 23 follows: 24 The Board will, first of all, hear from 25 ENR regarding their proposal before the Board.

1 Once they're completed, their 2 presentation, the order of questions will be as follows: 3 registered participants, then Board Staff or counsel. 4 Board Members will have the last 5 opportunity to ask questions. When the questions to ENR 6 are completed, we will proceed through the presentation 7 for Intervenors who have been registered. 8 There will be an opportunity for questions 9 after each presentation, firstly by ENR and then in the 10 same order as previously set out. 11 Time will be set aside for public to speak 12 each day, either immediately before or after lunch. The 13 Board wants this Hearing to be as informal as possible, 14 however, we are bound by the rules of procedural fairness 15 and as the Chair I am responsible for the conduct of this 16 Hearing and I will ask that all comments and any requests 17 be addressed to the Chair. 18 At the end of the Hearing the registered 19 participant will have an opportunity to present closing 20 comments. As the party that filed the proposal, ENR will 21 go last. Following that, the Hearing will come to a 22 close. 23 These hearings are scheduled from 9:00 24 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. from today, with exception of today, 25 till 1:30, until Thursday. We will be breaking at lunch.

1 Lunch will be provided and taking appropriate rest times. 2 We have coffee and refreshments at the back of the room 3 so please help yourself. 4 There is one (1) preliminary matter raised 5 to the Board's attention by Mr. Jim Patterson on behalf 6 of the Barren Ground Caribou Outfitters Association. By 7 e-mail dated March 8th, 2007, Mr. Patterson requested 8 that Mr. Ernie Campbell and Mr. Dr. Ray Case of the 9 Wek'eezhii Renewable Resource Board be declared in 10 conflict of interest due to their government position 11 with ENR. Mr. Patterson, on behalf of the Outfitters, 12 requested that these Board Members be excused from taking 13 part in the Board's decision making process. 14 The Board met March 12th, 2007, and 15 considered the Outfitter's request. The Board's decision 16 follows. 17 Mr. Campbell and Dr. Case made full 18 disclosure of their involvement in the development of ENR 19 proposal. The Board is of the opinion that these members 20 have not played a significant role in Minister's decision 21 making process leading to the proposal. The Board 22 understands that it is a common practice for wildlife 23 managers employed by government to be appointed to 24 renewable resource coal management boards established 25 under land claims including Gwich'in, Sahtu, and

1 Inuvialuit ports. 2 Review of the Tlicho Agreement indicates 3 that this situation was anticipated. Section 12.2.6 of 4 Tlicho Agreement specifies: 5 "Wek'eezhii Renewable Resource Board 6 Members shall not be considered to have 7 a conflict of interest by reason only 8 of being public servants, or employees 9 of Aboriginal organizations." 10 It is the Board's ruling that section 11 12.2.6 addresses the situation raised by the outfitter's 12 request. The Tlicho agreement is law, and the law 13 specifies that Mr. Campbell and Dr. Ray Case can continue 14 and the panel considering the ENR proposal. 15 The Board has every confidence that these 16 members will discharge their duties, both objectively and 17 fairly. 18 Now, before I proceed through ENR 19 presentation, are there any other preliminary or legal 20 issues? 21 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Mr. Chairman, John 22 Donihee, counsel for the Board, if there aren't any other 23 issues to be raised by any of the parties, I have a 24 number of documents which I would like to file for the 25 record of this proceeding, and with your permission I

1 will just proceed with those filings. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead. 3 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Thank you, sir. 4 Perhaps, for simplicity, I would just say that as the 5 participants should know, the Board, as being established 6 in 2005, but this is the first formal proposal that the 7 Board has received for wildlife management purposes from 8 ENR, and consequently, a number of these documents are 9 primarily of historical nature, but they're necessary in 10 order to fill the record out so the Board has all of the 11 information and foundation that it needs to render a 12 decision in this case; so that's why we requested them 13 from ENR, and I'll just go through the list, and ask the 14 Chair to assign exhibit numbers to them. 15 The first one is entitled; The Bathhurst 16 Caribou Management Planning Committee. A management plan 17 for the Bathhurst Caribou Herd, and I'd ask that, that be 18 filed as Exhibit Number 1. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. 1: The Bathurst Caribou 21 Management Planning 22 Committee. A management plan 23 for the Bathurst Caribou 24 Herd. 25

1 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Second one is 2 called The Dogrib Treaty 11 council; that's where it was 3 produced, and it's called Dogrib Knowledge on Placenames, 4 Caribou and Habitat. It's an unpublished report by the 5 West Katikmeot Slave study, and I'd ask that, that be 6 filed as Exhibit Number 2. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. 2: Dogrib Knowledge on 9 Placenames, Caribou and 10 Habitat. An unpublished 11 report by the West Katikmeot 12 Slave study. 13 14 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: For Exhibit No. 3, 15 a document from the Dogrib Treaty 11 council from 2001, 16 entitled; Caribou Migration and the State of their 17 habitat, again a WKSS study, that would be Exhibit 3. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. 3: Caribou Migration and the 20 State of their habitat. 21 22 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: For Exhibit No. 4, 23 a publication by Boulanger, and Dr. Anne Gunn entitled -- 24 it's in press, so it's a draft, but it's entitled 25 Exploring possible causes for the decline of the

1 Bathhurst Herd of Barren ground Caribou using demographic 2 modelling, and that would be Exhibit 4. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO. 4: Exploring possible causes for 5 the decline of the Bathurst 6 Herd of Barren ground Caribou 7 using demographic modelling. 8 9 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: For Exhibit 5, a 10 report by Doug Heard and Mark Williams from 1992, 11 entitled, Review of the Caribou project; and assessment 12 of techniques and their application. It's an unpublished 13 report by the Department of Renewable Resources for 14 Exhibit 5. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. 5: Review of the Caribou 17 project; and assessment of 18 techniques and their 19 application. An unpublished 20 report by the Department of 21 Renewable Resources. 22 23 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Exhibit 6; a 24 publication of Doug Heard, dated 1985, entitled Caribou 25 census methods used in the Northwest Territories, and

1 that's Exhibit 6. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. 6: Caribou census methods used 4 in the Northwest Territories, 5 by Doug Heard. 6 7 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Exhibit 7, by D.R. 8 Klein, Elle Moorehead, Jay Kruse, and S.R. Braund, a 1999 9 publication entitled Contrasts in use and perception of 10 biological data for Caribou management, and it's Wildlife 11 Society bulletin; Exhibit 7. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. 7: 1999 publication entitled 14 Contrasts in use and 15 perception of biological data 16 for Caribou management by 17 D.R. Klein, Elle Moorehead, 18 Jay Kruse, and S.R. Braund. 19 20 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: For Exhibit 8; a 21 publication by G. Mowat, entitled Report on Calving 22 ground census workshop. Again, an unpublished Department 23 of Renewable Resources publication from 2000; that's 24 Exhibit 8. 25

1 --- EXHIBIT NO. 8: Report on Calving ground 2 census workshop by G. Mowat. 3 4 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: For Exhibit 9, a 5 publication by Doug Urquahart from 1981 entitled, The 6 Bathurst Herd, A Review and Analysis of Information 7 Concerning the Bathurst Herd of Barren Ground Caribou in 8 the NWT for the period 6000 BC to 1980 AD. That's 9 Exhibit 9. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. 9: Publication by Doug Urquahart 12 from 1981 entitled, The 13 Bathurst Herd, A review and 14 Analysis of Information 15 Concerning the Bathurst Herd 16 of Barren Ground Caribou in 17 the NWT for the Period 6000 18 BC to 1980 AD. 19 20 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Exhibit 10, a paper by 21 D.C. Thomas from 1988 entitled, Needed Less Counting of 22 Caribou and More Ecology. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. 10: Paper by D.C. Thomas from 25 1988 entitled Needed: Less

1 Counting of Caribou and More 2 Ecology. 3 4 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Exhibit 11, a report 5 by R. Zalatan, A. Gunn and G.H.R. Henry, dated 2006, 6 entitled, Long Term Abundance Patterns of Barren Ground 7 Caribou Using Trampling Scars on Roots of Spruce in the 8 Northwest Territories. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. 11: Report by R. Zalatan, A. Gunn 11 and G.H.R. Henry, dated 2006, 12 entitled, Long Term Abundance 13 Patterns of Barren Ground 14 Caribou Using Trampling Scars 15 on Roots of Spruce in the 16 Northwest Territories. 17 18 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: For Exhibit 12, a 19 report by R.P. Graf and D.C. Heard dated 1990, entitled, 20 Spreadsheet Model of the Beverly and Kaminuriak Caribou 21 Herds, The Results of the November 1985 Workshop. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. 12: Report by R.P. Graf and D.C. 24 Heard dated 1990, entitled, 25 Spreadsheet Model of the

1 Beverly and Kaminuriak 2 Caribou Herds, The Results of 3 the November 1985 Workshop. 4 5 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Exhibit 13, from The 6 Dogrib Tribal Council, 1999, entitled, The 1987 to 1993 7 Dogrib Harvest Study. An unpublished report by the 8 Department of Human Resources for the Dogrib Tribal 9 Council. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. 13: An unpublished report from 12 1999 by the Department of 13 Human Resources for the 14 Dogrib Tribal Council 15 entitled, The 1987 to 1993 16 Dogrib Harvest Study. 17 18 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Exhibit 14, by J. 19 Boulanger, K. Poole, B, Fournier, J. Wierzcoswksi, T. 20 Gaines and A. Gunn, 2004, entitled, Assessment of 21 Bathurst Caribou Movements and Distribution in the Slave 22 Geological Province Northwest Territories. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. 14: Paper by J. Boulanger, K. 25 Poole, B. Fournier, J.

1 Wierzcoswksi, T. Gaines and 2 A. Gunn, entitled, Assessment 3 of Bathurst Caribou Movements 4 and Distribution in the Slave 5 Geological Province Northwest 6 Territories. 7 8 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Exhibit 15, from ENR 9 and it's a map with fire history for the Bathurst Winter 10 Range from 1980 to 2006. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. 15: A map from ENR with fire 13 history for the Bathurst 14 Winter Range from 1980 to 15 2006. 16 17 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Exhibit 16, from 18 Environment of Natural Resources, dated 2007, An Estimate 19 of Breeding Females in the Bathurst Herd of Barren Ground 20 Caribou, dated June 2006. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. 16: A paper from Environment of 23 Natural Resources, dated 24 2007, An Estimate of Breeding 25 Females in the Bathurst Herd

1 of Barren Ground Caribou, 2 dated June 2006. 3 4 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Exhibit 17, by A. Gunn 5 and J. Nishi, J. Boulanger and J. Williams, dated 2005, 6 An Estimate of Breeding Females in the Bathurst Herd of 7 Barren Ground Caribou, June 2003. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. 17: Paper by A. Gunn and J. 10 Nishi, J. Boulanger and J. 11 Williams, dated 2005, An 12 Estimate of Breeding Females 13 in the Bathurst Herd of 14 Barren Ground Caribou of June 15 2003. 16 17 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Exhibit 18, by Gunn, 18 Boulanger and Williams, dated 2005, entitled, Calves -- 19 Calf Survival and Fall Sex Ratios in the Bathurst Herd of 20 Barren Ground Caribou in the period 2000 to 2004. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. 18: Paper by A. Gunn, J. 23 Boulanger and J. Williams, 24 dated 2005, entitled, Calf 25 Survival and Fall Sex Ratios

1 in the Bathurst Herd of 2 Barren Ground Caribou in the 3 period 2000 to 2004. 4 5 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Exhibit 19, A. Gunn, 6 J. Dragon and J. Boulanger, dated 2001, Seasonal 7 Movements of Satellite Collared Caribou from the Bathurst 8 Herd. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. 19: A paper by A. Gunn, J. Dragon 11 and J. Boulanger, dated 2001, 12 Seasonal Movements of 13 Satellite Collared Caribou 14 from the Bathurst Herd. 15 16 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Exhibit 20, by 17 Griffiths, Gunn, D. Russell, J. Johnstone, K. Kielland, 18 S. Wolfe and D.C. Douglas, dated 2001, Bathurst Caribou 19 Calving Ground Studies, Influence of Nutrition in Human 20 Activity on Cabbing Ground Location. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. 20: By Griffiths, Gunn, D. 23 Russell, J. Johnstone, K. 24 Kielland, S. Wolfe and D.C. 25 Douglas, dated 2001, Bathurst

1 Caribou Calving Ground 2 Studies, Influence of 3 Nutrition in Human Activity 4 on Cabbing Ground Location. 5 6 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Exhibit 21, 7 Sutherland, M. and A. Gunn, 1996, Bathurst Calving Ground 8 Surveys, 1695 to 1996. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. 21: Sutherland, M. and A. Gunn, 11 1996, Bathurst Calving Ground 12 Surveys, 1965 to 1996. 13 14 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: And Exhibit 22, by 15 Williams, M.T. and D, Fournier, dated 1996, Summary of 16 Spring Classification Surveys of the Bathurst Caribou 17 Herd 1985 to 1995, by the Government of the Northwest 18 Territories. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. 22: By Williams, M.T. and D, 21 Fournier, dated 1996, Summary 22 of Spring Classification 23 Surveys of the Bathurst 24 Caribou Herd 1985 to 1995 by 25 the Government of the

1 Northwest Territories. 2 3 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Mr. Chairman, the 4 Board has received copies of all these documents. And 5 I've canvassed the registered parties, there appear to be 6 no objections to their being filed on the record. And 7 with your permission, I'd like to do -- do so with those 8 Exhibit numbers as -- as indicated. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MS. SUSAN FLECK: I'd like to start with 13 a greeting, detah sone (phonetic). I hope everyone is 14 nezzo (phonetic) and mahsi for being here. 15 My name is Susan Fleck and I'm the 16 Director of Wildlife. With me I have Dean Cluff, who's 17 the Regional Biologist for the North Slave Region; Bruno 18 Croft, he's the Caribou Monitoring Specialist for the 19 North Slave Region; and Darren Pickup, he's legal counsel 20 with the Department of Justice. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 PRESENTATION BY ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES: 25 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Mahsi. This

1 presentation talks about information that we used to 2 prepare the proposal submitted to the Wek'eezhii 3 Renewable Resources Board for management actions to help 4 the herd recover. 5 In this presentation I'll cover the 6 following areas: Do herds vary in size over time? What 7 do we call a herd? What do we know about calving 8 grounds? Why are herds the basis for management? What 9 information is collected to track the cycle? What other 10 factors affect the size of a herd? What other herds are 11 found in Wek'eezhii? And working with other management 12 partners. 13 We are often asked if herd sizes vary over 14 time. As biologists we've been tracking this for about 15 thirty (30) years, however, traditional knowledge has 16 been tracking herd cycles for a lot longer. 17 Just like lynx and rabbits, mice, the 18 number of barren ground caribou periodically increases 19 and decreases at relatively regular intervals. 20 Scientific knowledge collected over the last thirty (30) 21 years supports the traditional knowledge and we don't 22 know why this happens but we think it's linked to long- 23 term climate patterns. 24 Before considering what management actions 25 are needed we need to know whether caribou are

1 increasing, decreasing, or low, and the monitoring and 2 management actions in the caribou -- in the Bathurst 3 Caribou Management Plan are based on whether the herd 4 size is high, declining, or low. 5 The land claim agreements make reference 6 to developing management actions for individual caribou 7 herds. In answering the questions, what is a herd, 8 biologists say that animals that use the range and 9 calving area together form a herd. 10 This slide shows the movements of cows 11 with satellite collars from seven (7) herds used by NWT 12 communities. 13 Over here is the Porcupine herd in -- 14 which goes in Gwich'in area here to Yukon and over into 15 Alaska. These movements represent ten (10) years of 16 data. 17 These -- this area is the Cape Bathurst 18 Herd and these red movements again are ten (10) years of 19 data. 20 This is the -- what we call the Bluenose 21 West Herd and over here is the Bluenose East herd. Again 22 these are movements from ten (10) years of data. The 23 Bluenose East goes into Wek'eezhii. 24 This is the Bathurst Herd that we're 25 talking about today and we have ten (10) years of

1 information on it. 2 This herd up here is known as the Dolphin 3 Union. It spends the winter here and then in summertime 4 it -- then before the ice melts it crosses to Victoria 5 Island and goes up here in different areas to calve and 6 then it comes back for winter. 7 And then this herd we have five (5) years 8 of information on. This is the Ahiak heard or it used to 9 be called Queen Maud Gulf. 10 Over in this area is the Beverly and we 11 don't have cari -- we have not had caribou collared 12 there. Just last year we put five (5) collars on and 13 there's one (1) more main -- big mainland herd in 14 Nunavut. It goes to Manitoba called the Qamanirjuaq. 15 These movements show us that most animals 16 use the center part of their range. What you can't see 17 is the seasonal use in the calving grounds and the 18 calving grounds -- when they're on their calving grounds 19 there's no overlap between the different herds. There 20 can be overlap in late summer/winter as you can see. 21 The calving grounds are defined as the 22 area occupied by pregnant females from when the calf is 23 born to when the calf starts to eat grass. It takes -- 24 that's about a three (3) week period. 25 In the NWT caribou cows from each herd

1 will meet on their own calving grounds. This shows where 2 in -- two (2) Marches ago, March 2005, this is where 3 collars were put on and then the movements in March and 4 the movements to where they had their calves. You can 5 see there are a couple of times where animals are 6 associated together from two (2) different herds and they 7 move up, but then they come over here to have their calf. 8 In the last ten (10) years we followed the 9 movement of three hundred and six (306) cows over two (2) 10 or more calving seasons and of those only five (5) have 11 not returned to the same calving ground. This is less 12 than 2 percent and it suggests that there's little 13 interchange between the herds. 14 This is -- this shows you where surveys 15 have been done for -- to count the breeding females on 16 the calving grounds for the Bathurst Herd. Over the 17 thirty (30) years they've used parts of all this area. 18 In the late '70s and '80s they were using this area in 19 here. In '86 they used either side of Bathurst Inlet and 20 the last few years they've been having their calves in 21 this area. 22 We know this area was also used in the 23 1950s and when we did the surveys in the early years, I - 24 - I did a lot of them, we didn't have any satellite 25 collars to find out where the caribou were, so we used to

1 fly up from Yellowknife, check that there was nothing 2 here and then fly in, kind of like this, to figure out 3 where the animals were. We knew that there were other 4 caribou calving over here, and so we had to make sure 5 there was a break and that way we knew where the calving 6 ground was. 7 We are asked why we manage by herds. Why 8 not manage all the caribou in the Northwest Territories 9 together? 10 We manage them for two (2) reasons. 11 First, some conditions differ on each 12 caribou's range such as the level of hunting, forest fire 13 activity, predation and human activity. 14 Second, each herd is used by different 15 communities and we want to make sure that all communities 16 still have access to caribou. 17 For these reasons we monitor each herd 18 separately. 19 We use several different kinds of 20 information that we gather over several years to see if a 21 herd is increasing or decreasing. We look at the last 22 few surveys so, in the case of the Bathurst herd, we 23 looked at the 1996, the 2003, the 2006 survey. And then 24 we also look at other information that we collect. For 25 example: how many calves survived the winter, pregnancy

1 rates, condition, adult sex ratio. 2 In this way we can check that the 3 information we obtain from the survey matches with the 4 other information. 5 For the Bathurst herd, we have also 6 collected a number of pieces of information and I'll go 7 over those. 8 The first is calves surviving over winter. 9 In late March and April when the cows go back north, we 10 look at the number of calves to adult cows. We count the 11 groups associated with the collared cows so we know which 12 herd we're looking at. When herds are increasing or high 13 you'll see calf ratios -- you'll see about thirty (30) to 14 fifty (50) calves per hundred (100) cows heading north. 15 And this is what we observed on the Bathurst range in 16 1984 to 1994. 17 When we see rates of less than thirty (30) 18 calves per hundred (100) cows, this can mean a declining 19 herd. When we looked at calf survival again after 2000 20 we noticed that these numbers were getting lower and 21 lower and a year ago we had -- we saw only nine (9) 22 calves per hundred (100) cows going north. 23 This suggests that the decline is partly 24 due to low numbers of calves surviving over winter and 25 then becoming adults. This can be due to predation, but

1 other things also affect it. So for this low calf number 2 in the following or the previous winter we had very low 3 pregnancy rates of 63 percent and caribou were not fat. 4 We've also looked at the number of bulls 5 to cows. This tells us a couple of things. It tells us 6 when -- if we look at the sex ratio, it gives us some 7 indication of whether herds are increasing or decreasing. 8 We also look at this because it's important to people 9 that there are enough adult bulls for cows to breed. And 10 that -- people tell us that the bulls, the big bulls, are 11 important for leading the fall migration. Because the 12 bulls don't go to the calving grounds, we collect this 13 information during the rut, late October/early November, 14 when all the caribou are together. 15 When caribou numbers are high it's normal 16 to see fewer bulls than cows. This is probably because 17 bulls lose all their fat during the rut and then they 18 have to make it through a winter with not much fat. 19 So when herds are increasing or high in 20 number, we expect to see sixty (60) bulls to one hundred 21 (100) cows. And we've noticed in other places that when 22 herds are declining, you'll see ratios closer to thirty 23 (30) bulls to one hundred (100) cows. 24 In 2004 and 2006 in the fall surveys were 25 done and the results were thirty-seven (37) bulls to one

1 hundred (100) cows and then last year thirty-six (36) 2 bulls to one hundred (100) cows. 3 The Bathurst Caribou Management Plan 4 recommends monitoring bull/cow sex ratios and suggests 5 reducing outfitter harvest when the ratio of bulls to 6 cows is between thirty (30) and forty (40) bulls per one 7 hundred (100) cows. 8 We also look at winter distribution. In 9 years when we put out a lot of radio collars so that we 10 can make sure that we put -- that we have collars on all 11 the groups of caribou that we see. 12 These are all the flights we did a year 13 ago to get ready for the census' that were done last 14 summer. This shows you where caribou were seen and the 15 different times and different places. And we found that 16 the distribution of -- of satellite collars that we had 17 out there and radio collars from the year before were 18 fairly representative of where the caribou were, so we 19 didn't find many groups that weren't already marked. 20 I want to talk about what factors affect 21 individual herd size. So earlier I said we think the 22 long-term caribou cycles are influenced by long-term 23 climate patterns, but that there are other -- on each 24 herd there are also different conditions. I have divided 25 the factors into those that cause direct or indirect

1 impacts. 2 We'll start with those that we call 3 indirect impacts and an example of a factor with an 4 indirect impact is when Tlicho say that caribou don't 5 like certain smells and will move away. In other words, 6 whatever causes that smell doesn't make the animal die, 7 but it can change its behaviour or distribution. 8 Examples of these factors on the Bathurst range include 9 exploration activities, mining, winter roads, tourism 10 activities. 11 The winter roads that are constructed for 12 the communities and the mines have greatly increased 13 access for people to hunt caribou in winter, but caribou 14 continue to cross these roads. 15 The three (3) diamond mines on the 16 Bathurst range appear to be affecting summer distribution 17 within 30 kilometres of the mines, possibly from dust. 18 This is an example of the effects of dust in the spring 19 melt. But the area that these -- that's affected is a 20 small part of the summer range. 21 In northern Alaska cow/calf groups are 22 also more sensitive to human activity than bull groups. 23 The existing developments on the Bathurst 24 range when through environmental reviews when the herds 25 were increasing or high in number. Consequently, the

1 environmental measures were designed for that situation. 2 It's time to review the monitoring and mitigation 3 programmes. And we also don't know the cumulative 4 effects of more development. This is what the monitoring 5 boards for the mines have asked us to look at. 6 However, at this point it seems any 7 impacts from these activities that act directly are 8 relatively minor compared to harvest and predation which 9 act directly on herd size. 10 So the factors that have direct impacts 11 are predation, harvest, disease. I'll be talking about 12 predation and harvesting because I think we all agree 13 these have the biggest direct impact on caribou numbers. 14 We also know from other predator/prey relationships that 15 when the animals that a wolf or a bear eat decrease in 16 number so will the number of wolves and bears eventually. 17 The monitoring studies we're doing on 18 wolves suggest that the low caribou numbers are affecting 19 wolf productivity so we do annual wolf den surveys. 20 There's about seventy-five (75) areas in around tree line 21 that we check. In previous years we usually see about 22 twenty (20) are active and there's fifty (50) to seventy- 23 five (75) adult wolves with the den sites. 24 Last year fourteen (14) were active, so 25 the number's gone down, and only fourteen (14) adults

1 were seen. It also looks like litter size, the number of 2 pups, is decreasing from ten (10) years ago. 3 We also examined carcasses brought in by 4 people in the North Slave region. Most are -- most of 5 these are from one (1) trapper who usually takes the 6 whole pack. Last year a hundred and five (105) carcasses 7 were collected and there appear to be no young animals, 8 pups, in the group which is quite different from other 9 years. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MS. SUSAN FLECK: We looked at some 14 information collected on grizzly bear sightings. We have 15 not done any work on grizzly bears since the late 1990s. 16 We did get a collection of bear sightings 17 from one (1) of the camps, Point Lake Lodge, and this 18 information was collected over six (6) years; looks like 19 good information. The camp operates in fishing season 20 and not many bears are seen. August 15th the hunting 21 season starts and more bears were seen. 22 At the end of the hunting season when the 23 camp is shut down fewer bears were seen. There's also 24 not as much activity. They don't travel on the lake as 25 much. And the report suggests the bears are drawn in by

1 hunting. 2 The Department has a research station at 3 Daring Lake which is in the same area where the different 4 outfitting operations occur. That camp has been in 5 operation for nine (9) years and we looked at the bear 6 sightings. From May to August a few bears are seen; very 7 similar to what was seen at -- at Point Lake Lodge. 8 Then after August 15th they -- in nine (9) 9 years they haven't seen any bears and there are caribou 10 in the area but the people at the camp aren't allowed to 11 hunt them. 12 The late summer is when bears gain all 13 their weight for fall and there are many -- in many 14 places it's been recorded that bears are drawn in to 15 areas where there's a good food source and it's a 16 consistent food source. 17 There is no quota for Grizzly bears in the 18 NWT side of the Slave province, but in Nunavut there is a 19 quota. There are Grizzly bears killed during conflicts 20 with people at exploration camps and other camps and the 21 information we have is that it can vary between nine (9) 22 and thirty (30). 23 The -- there are also wolves hunted every 24 year in the North Slave Region; again, that number can 25 vary. In the last -- the two (2)years that I had

1 information it was about a hundred and thirty (130) to a 2 hundred and fifty (150). Most of these are taken by a 3 trapper and outfitters take a number of wolves and 4 residents take a smaller number. 5 I want to talk a little bit about the 6 question of wolf control because it is raised. In the 7 Yukon they only initiate wolf control after hunting by 8 people has been shut down for two (2) years. In Alaska 9 they have wolf control to help the 40 Mile Herd recover, 10 but they have really restricted hunting by people. 11 The methods used include sterilizing the 12 male and female so they can't have puppies, but they 13 maintain a territory, re-locating wolves to other places 14 and killing them. 15 These are all expensive programmes and 16 they'd be hard to do here in the Northwest Territories 17 where the caribou herd covers such a big territory and 18 the wolves don't have home ranges. 19 The final factor that can have a big 20 impact on caribou numbers is human harvest and we collect 21 this information from a variety of sources. The 22 outfitted harvest is reported to us by the outfitters and 23 it's good information. 24 The resident harvest is provided -- we put 25 out a survey, we get about 50 percent return on them, so

1 it's an estimate. 2 And the Aboriginal harvest is -- some of 3 it is from hunter interviews, some of it is from 4 community hunts, some from talking to people and 5 estimating based on people in communities. 6 The proposal we submitted to the Board 7 looked at the breakdown of the 2005/2006 harvest estimate 8 and I want to note that the harvest information presented 9 here is slightly different from what's in the proposal. 10 We revised it following a meeting with outfitters and 11 MLAs in late December who asked the question about 12 allocating it to different herds. The revised 2005/'06 13 estimate is five thousand three hundred forty-five 14 (5,345) Bathurst caribou and five hundred twenty-one 15 (521) Bluenose East caribou. And this estimate is likely 16 low and I'll explain why. 17 We were able to allocate the harvest by 18 looking at maps of collared caribou, so we'll look at 19 these now. This is the fall harvest in September 2005. 20 The -- okay, the red caribou are Bluenose East cows. The 21 green ones are Bathurst cows. The purple ones are Ahiak 22 cows. So this is in September 2005. The outfitting area 23 is in here and people from the communities fly into these 24 areas to hunt. So we looked at where the hunting 25 occurred.

1 We assumed that less than 10 percent of 2 the caribou harvested by the outfitters came from the 3 Bluenose East herd and we assumed there was no hunting by 4 the communities or by residents in this area. 5 We estimated the total fall harvest from 6 Aboriginal hunters was six hundred (600), which was a 7 hundred (100) caribou from six (6) communities each. 8 Gameti, Whati, Wekweti, Behchoko, Detah/Ndilo and Lutsel 9 K'e. 10 We estimate a total fall harvest from the 11 Bathurst herd was eighty (80). We know from the hunter 12 surveys about 20 percent of the residents hunt in the 13 fall -- or take -- the harvest is from the fall. 14 The winter harvest, I have two (2) slides 15 here; one is January 2006 and the next one will be March. 16 You'll recall in the fall the Bathurst were here and they 17 moved like this into these areas. The Bluenose East that 18 was up here moved here and here. And these Ahiak ones in 19 the fall came -- went down in this area. 20 In the wintertime much of the harvest is 21 from females and so we felt the resident hunters mostly 22 go up the winter road and hunt in this area. So we 23 assumed their harvest came from the Bathurst and same 24 with the commercial tags that are issued out of 25 Yellowknife.

1 If you look at this, the next one will be 2 March. You'll see there's not much movement. So in the 3 winter the caribou don't move all that much. I think we 4 all know that. 5 And then we looked at Aboriginal harvest. 6 We -- there were hunter interviews done here in Lutsel 7 K'e. They said they hunted about twelve hundred (1,200) 8 animals. And a community hunt from here went to Francois 9 Lake area. They took about a hundred (100) in January. 10 We assumed individual hunters took another 11 four hundred (400) from the Bathurst area. In the Tlicho 12 there's a mixture of Bathurst and Bluenose East and some 13 people also go up the winter road to hunt in this area. 14 So we allocated the harvest two-thirds (2/3rds) to 15 Bathurst and one-third (1/3) to Bluenose East. 16 When the herds are declining, it's our 17 view there is no sustainable harvest and we need to look 18 at what level of risk we can live with. 19 Our proposal to the Board suggests that 20 the harvest level not exceed 4 percent of the total 21 population size. Because we can't set a sustainable 22 harvest level we've attempted to identify a harvest level 23 that might present an acceptable level of risk to a 24 declining population. 25 We've taken a couple of factors into

1 consideration. We looked at consistency with 2 recommendations of co-management boards in the western 3 NWT. So up in the Inuvik region where the Cape Bathurst 4 herd has become very small and the -- and very few calves 5 were being seen, the acceptable risk there is zero and 6 the management Board's recommended that the total 7 allowable harvest be zero. 8 For the Bluenose West herd where numbers 9 are higher the total allowable harvest has been set by 10 the Boards at 4 percent until another survey is conducted 11 in 2009. And for the Bluenose East heard the Sahtu Board 12 has recommended a voluntary total allowable harvest of 4 13 percent. 14 We also looked at what are the factors 15 involved with the decline in the herd size and we believe 16 it's linked to the decline in calf survival and some 17 declines in adult female survival. Some modelling work 18 has suggested that small changes in adult survival can 19 have a big influence on what happens with the population. 20 Why are we talking about managing harvest 21 today when we haven't done that previously? The last 22 time caribou numbers were low was in the late 1970s and 23 things were different up here. Winter roads were just 24 starting to be put in. We didn't have maps of where the 25 collared caribou were. People still used dog teams and

1 small little elans for hunting. Not much use of 2 aircraft. We didn't have any outfitting at that time. 3 So it was a lot harder last time when 4 caribou were low for people to find caribou and it meant 5 that the harvest levels declined naturally. We don't 6 think this is the situation today. 7 The Board asked me to talk a little bit 8 about what other herds are in Wek'eezhii and who else we 9 are working with to manage these herds. This shows the 10 location of caribou a month ago, mid February, so again 11 the green is the Bathurst, red is Bluenose East, purple 12 is Ahiak, and we have five (5) from the Beverly herd, the 13 collars that were put on last year and this is -- this 14 one down here is a Qamanirjuaq herd from Keewatin. 15 So Wek'eezhii is kind of like this and the 16 information we have from movements of satellite collared 17 animals says we've only been seeing three (3) herds in 18 this area. 19 The Ahiak herd, most of them seem to be 20 over here far away from this area. There's been no 21 recent surveys of this herd and also if you look at 22 communities that are close to this area there's really -- 23 there really aren't any. It's -- people from Lutsel K'e 24 are going a long ways. This is a very small community 25 and Baker Lake is way over here so they wouldn't be

1 accessing. So there really isn't much hunting we feel of 2 this -- of that herd. 3 We are concerned about the management of 4 the red animals, the Bluenose East, as the population 5 estimates from this herd show that it has gone down like 6 the Bathurst. 7 I'll talk a bit more about the Bluenose 8 East herd. Oh, too bad, there was a -- can't see the 9 picture here. It's a picture of -- aerial photo of bulls 10 taken during the -- the survey last summer. 11 So most of the range of the Bluenose East 12 herd is in the Sahtu region. The Sahtu final agreement 13 speaks to establishing an agreement with others who share 14 the Bluenose herds. There was an agreement done in 2000 15 with Nunavut and Sahtu and Inuvik Region co-management 16 boards but that should be reviewed as it doesn't refer to 17 the Tlicho Government and the Wek'eezhii Renewable 18 Resource Board role in managing the Bluenose East herd. 19 The Sahtu Board made the following 20 recommendations for management actions in the last two 21 (2) years that they've been looking at this -- what needs 22 to be done. 23 The -- there is no more resident outfitted 24 or commercial meat hunting there in the Sahtu region. As 25 I said before they've set a voluntary ana -- allowable

1 harvest at 4 percent. Harvesters are asked to 2 voluntarily limit the harvest of females so that more 3 females can have calves. They've asked for public 4 education to talk to people about this herd and they've 5 asked for funding from us to bring together partners to 6 develop a management plan and we'll be writing back to 7 the Board to say that we will help with that. 8 The Sahtu Board is aware that this herd 9 goes into the Wek'eezhii and it's my understanding 10 they've been in contact with Wek'eezhii Renewable 11 Resource Board to talk about working together on managing 12 this herd. 13 So what other partners are there in 14 managing the Bathurst herd? It moves as you saw between 15 Nunavut and the end NWT and it has more human activity on 16 its range than any other herd in the NWT. 17 We agree that we have to work with 18 everyone on managing this herd and the Bathurst Caribou 19 Management Plan calls for an annual meeting to bring 20 people together to talk about actions. The first meeting 21 was held in February last year and the results from the 22 survey this summer were presented at the second meeting 23 that was in the -- in December in Yellowknife. 24 So, other people who attended those 25 meetings included people from communities, the diamond

1 mines and user groups and we used the meeting in December 2 to listen to actions -- comments about actions in the 3 Management Plan. 4 The North Slave Region has also been 5 making presentations on the results of the survey to 6 Tlicho communities and also to Detah/Ndilo and the North 7 Slave Metis Alliance. 8 The harvest -- we think the harvest by 9 Nunavut is low because there's only one (1) small 10 community that travels there in the summer time when the 11 animals are there around Bathurst Inlet, but at the -- 12 the -- all the calving area is in Nunavut. 13 At the Caribou Summit in Inuvik, the 14 action that had the highest priority was protecting 15 calving grounds. And so our minister has made a 16 commitment to talk to the Government of Nunavut about 17 protecting the calving areas. 18 The Tlicho Agreement also talks about 19 managing migratory species with others -- authorities and 20 it says that the Tlicho Government and the Territorial 21 Government shall either jointly or separately prepare a 22 proposal for the management of the herd and provide it to 23 the Wek'eezhii Board, and we'll followup on this action 24 with the Tlicho Government. 25 So, to summarize, I've presented the

1 information we used to develop the proposal provided to 2 the Wek'eezhii Board for Management actions to help the 3 Bathurst Herd recover. I first talked about why we 4 believe the herd is declining. This is based on the last 5 three (3) population estimates and it's supported by 6 other information such as low numbers of calves and a 7 lower adult sex ratio. It also looks like the low 8 caribou numbers are starting to affect the wolf numbers. 9 I talked about harvest and how we allocate 10 harvest to the different herds. The Tlicho Agreement 11 also sets a priority for allocating harvest in Wek'eezhii 12 and Aboriginal harvest has the highest priority, 13 following by resident and non-resident. 14 When herds are declining harvest can 15 affect how quickly a herd recovers and that's why we 16 suggested to minimize the risk and not let harvest exceed 17 4 percent. However, we expect the Board will use this 18 information and other information over the next few days 19 to decide what level of risk is acceptable. 20 The proposed management actions in our 21 proposal to the Board to help the herd recover are based 22 on the Bathurst Caribou Management Plan actions. And the 23 ones in our proposal are for the next three (3) years are 24 to eliminate the commercial meat tags, reduce the tags 25 for outfitted hunts to three fifty (350) and one (1) tag

1 per hunter, establish no-hunting corridors on winter 2 roads, have resident and Aboriginal hunters report 3 harvest, and monitor calf survival condition, adult sex 4 ratio, and harvest and do the next survey in 2009. 5 In conclusion the -- the proposal is based 6 on actions in the Bathurst Plan for when the herd is 7 declining and we look forward to the Board's 8 deliberations on actions to help the caribou herd 9 recover. Mahsi cho for your attention. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Susan. 11 Before we go on to the questions we'll take a ten (10) 12 minute break. Thank you. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 11:15 a.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 11:40 a.m. 16 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you. Can 18 we get back to our hearing? ENR made the presentation 19 this morning and we will now have the questions. The 20 line-up of the participants, I'll list it here and I will 21 explain it. 22 We have, first of all ENR. The next in 23 line is the Outfitters Association. Third is Tlicho 24 Government. Fourth is Bearwise. Fifth is North Slave 25 Metis Allowance. Sixth is NWT Tourism. Seven (7) is

1 Yellowknives Dene First Nation. 2 Those are the line-ups. If there's any 3 other parties intending to make a presentation we like to 4 know now because we'll put it on a list and this is the 5 list that we will go by. I don't want anymore people 6 coming and telling me that they want to go last or go 7 wherever. In all fairness to everybody we want -- so if 8 there's any other parties that are willing to make 9 presentation. If none, then we'll go with this list. 10 Now, the first to ask the questions is the 11 Outfitters' Association to the ENR. When they make their 12 presentation there the question now will be -- I mean 13 from Outfitters' Association. 14 And if I could ask to use the table in 15 front there with -- there's a microphone there as well. 16 17 QUESTION PERIOD: 18 MR. BOYD WARNER: Thank you, Mr. 19 Chairman. Boyd Warner, Barren Ground Caribou Outfitters' 20 Association, and a couple of questions to ENR. 21 Sue, you -- Ms. Fleck, you indicated that 22 the Bathurst Caribou Management Plan is of course the 23 instrument that we're using to implement possible changes 24 and my understanding as an outfitter is that while we 25 were involved in the plan after it was developed that the

1 outfitters were denied access to participate in the 2 formation of the Bathurst Caribou Management Plan. We 3 have been invited to two (2) workshops once the plan was 4 developed but our initial requests to participate in the 5 development of the plan were denied. 6 So that was -- I'd just like to clarify 7 that and also ask who was representing the outfitters 8 during the formation then of the Bathurst Caribou 9 Management Plan? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Susan Fleck, ENR. I -- 14 I wasn't involved or around during the development of the 15 plan so my information goes back to what I see in the 16 plan. 17 The -- there was an agreement that was 18 struck between the Federal Government, the Territorial 19 Government, and Nunavut Government and it included the 20 Dogrib Treaty 11 Council, Lutsel K'e, Yellowknives Dene, 21 North Slave Metis Allowance, Kitikmeot Inuit Association, 22 Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated, the Nunavut Wildlife 23 Board, and the Kitikmeot Hunters and Trappers 24 Association, in 2000. 25 And that was the group that would put

1 together the management plan. My understanding is that 2 other parties like resident hunters, the diamond mines, 3 outfitters, would be involved in the consultation of the 4 plan and would be able to make comments during that time. 5 With regard to your question of who 6 represented the outfitters, it's my understanding that 7 the Government would have brought a number of different 8 comments to the table but that would be -- it was during 9 the consultation that other groups would be able to look 10 directly. 11 MR. BOYD WARNER: Thank you. For the 12 record I would like to -- to -- in the -- to know that 13 outfitters did request to participate in the development 14 of the Bathurst Caribou Management Plan but we were told 15 we would not -- we were not allowed to do that. We have 16 since been involved in workshops but we were never 17 allowed to participate in the original plan. 18 I'd also -- just following up on the -- on 19 the Bathurst Caribou Management Plan is there also a plan 20 to -- or is there a plan recognizing that the Wek'eezhii 21 and North Slave regions harvest from the Ahiak herd which 22 clearly is indicated on your slides, is there a plan to 23 have an Ahiak management plan in addition to the Bathurst 24 Caribou Management Plan? 25 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Susan Fleck, ENR.

1 Ideally we would like management plans for all the herds 2 but practically we will concentrate on the ones that are 3 most used by communities now. 4 MR. BOYD WARNER: Thank you. And I guess 5 that's one (1) of my points that on page 12 of your 6 presentation you provided a very nice map showing 7 February 2007 that clearly Bathurst caribou are mixing 8 with Bluenose East caribou in the northeast section of 9 Wek'eezhii, and also Ahiak caribou are mixing with 10 Bathurst caribou straight north of Yellowknife and -- and 11 it looks like right between Gameti and Wekweti. 12 So my point would be that we do need -- 13 with no management plan in place and a herd that 14 represents close to two hundred thousand (200,000) 15 animals, the Ahiak herd is becoming a very large 16 percentage of the caribou being harvested. 17 And that leads me to the direct question, 18 Susan. On page 9 of your presentation on harvest in the 19 North Slave there is zero allocation or any possibility 20 of allocation to Ahiak caribou or even on the far eastern 21 side of, not so much the Wek'eezhii area, but certainly 22 hunters from Lutsel K'e in the past have been known to 23 harvest Beverly caribou. 24 And I thank you for taking recognition now 25 that the Bluenose East are harvested but I'm just

1 wondering, is there not indeed a very good probability 2 that in '05/'06 Ahiak as well as potentially Beverly 3 caribou could not have been killed by either Aboriginal 4 or non-Aboriginal hunters? 5 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Susan Fleck, ENR. In 6 the presentation I indicated that there are three (3) 7 herds in Wek'eezhii, that the Ahiak herd is here the 8 least often. In the winter of 2005/'06 for which we 9 presented the harvest information, there were no Ahiak 10 animals and we had a fair number collared at that time. 11 MR. BOYD WARNER: Thank you, Susan. 12 There was no -- 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me. Excuse me. 14 Could I remind the questioners to please direct the 15 questions to the Chair so otherwise we'll just end up 16 having two (2) parties having a discussion here. Thank 17 you. 18 MR. BOYD WARNER: I apologize, Mr. 19 Chairman, and thank you. 20 Mr. Chairman, I thank Susan for her answer 21 and I just -- for further clarification, it is 22 Department's position that no Ahiak caribou or Beverly 23 caribou could have been killed in 2005 or '06 in this 24 harvest estimate. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead, Susan.

1 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Susan Fleck, ENR. The 2 information we have suggests there were none. 3 MR. BOYD WARNER: Thank you, Mr. 4 Chairman. I'd like to go on to just ask maybe Mr. Bruno 5 Croft, Mr. Chairman, the -- the biologist. I realize a 6 lot of our talk is about caribou in '05/'06. I was 7 wondering what indicators he has for the herd this year, 8 how they did this year calving, how the calving grounds 9 were -- whether they had a good summer, possible 10 conditions this fall. 11 Is -- is the Bathurst herd looking and 12 indeed all herds, what -- what condition Mr. Croft feels 13 the herd went through in the last year. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Bruno 15 Croft...? 16 MR. BRUNO CROFT: Thank you, Mr. 17 Chairman. Bruno Croft, ENR. 18 As Boyd pointed out it was probably the -- 19 the crew that did the 2006 calving grounds survey. We 20 did have a good crop of calves right after birth on the 21 calving ground; about sixty-five (65) calf, to a hundred 22 (100) cows, which is good. All the animals then were in 23 excellent shape, females as well, and we face a very 24 early summer or very early spring. 25 By -- by the time we left around the 20th

1 of June the animals were already grazing and drifting 2 away from the main calving ground. 3 We also know from you guys' work that the 4 bulls in the course of the summer were in excellent 5 shape. We also got information from -- from our health 6 and condition program that the outfitters have helped to 7 collect indicating they were in good shape, again. 8 In the fall of -- in October of 2006 we 9 did fall composition work and we observed a calf/cow 10 ratio of 40 percent; forty (40) calves, per hundred (100) 11 cows -- per one hundred (100) cows, which is very good. 12 And it has been some time since we've seen that with the 13 Bathurst returning from the summer migration. 14 So there's a little bit of good news 15 there. At the same time during that composition work we 16 -- we noted bull-to-cow ratio of thirty-six (36) bulls to 17 a hundred (100) cows, as Ms. Fleck pointed out. 18 Moving on this summer -- this winter I 19 haven't had a chance to go out myself and pursue the 20 information with our health and condition program, mostly 21 because we're so busy with all kinds of meetings but I'm 22 planning to do this starting now until early April, mid 23 April. We'll also do a spring classification count which 24 will give us an idea of over-winter calf survival. 25 The reports we're getting from our hunters

1 in the field this winter are that the cows are in good 2 shape, so are the bulls, and there seem to be a number of 3 calves per hundred (100) cows corresponding to what we 4 observed in -- in the fall of 2006. 5 So, Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure if I 6 answered all the questions. I -- I can follow-up on the 7 small details that I'm missing. 8 MR. BOYD WARNER: No, thank you, Mr. 9 Chairman, that does answer the question. 10 Question, Mr. Chairman, back to Ms. Fleck. 11 On page 9 again of the -- her presentation, caribou 12 harvest in the North Slave, I notice the -- and you did 13 correct that this information is different than is in the 14 original proposal to the Wek'eezhii Renewable Resource 15 Board. 16 I did notice a change in the total from 17 five thousand seven hundred and forty-four (5,744) to a 18 corrected estimate five thousand three hundred and forty- 19 five (5,345), Mr. Chairman, but what I am asking about is 20 I noticed the outfitter tag harvest has increased in this 21 presentation from that in the original presentation and 22 I'd just like clarification on the increase. 23 MS. SUSAN FLECK: When -- when we counted 24 up the original number we forgot to include the harvest 25 from the non-HTA outfitters of a hundred and twenty-two

1 (122) animals so that's why it's gone up. 2 MR. BOYD WARNER: Thank you, Mr. 3 Chairman, and I'm just also curious why the 2005/'06 4 outfitter data would be used instead of the more recent 5 data of last fall which suggested the '06/'07 which is 6 the caribou that most recently would have died by 7 outfitters is actually a total of seven hundred and 8 twenty-seven (727) animals, and should we not be using 9 the most current information? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 10 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Susan Fleck, ENR. We 11 used the 2005/'06 because it was the most complete so we 12 had -- we knew what the outfitters were. We had -- the 13 residents and we had done work with the Aboriginal 14 harvest so we don't have that same level of 15 information for this winter because it's not over yet. 16 MR. BOYD WARNER: Thank you, Mr. 17 Chairman. I'm not sure that answered the question as to 18 -- as to why, but I would like to point out to the -- to 19 the Board that the -- the more corrected information of 20 recent outfitter harvests, according to the North Slave 21 report that they published, is seven hundred and twenty- 22 seven (727) animals last year. 23 And -- and what -- and -- and, Mr. 24 Chairman, jut further to that, I'd like to point out that 25 in the original proposal to the Wek'eezhii Renewable

1 Resource Board, the management goal of 4 percent was 2 exceeded by one half a percentage point. And with the 3 adjusted numbers to five thousand, three hundred and 4 forty-five (5,345), we are now at 4.17 percent, even 5 applying all of the harvest or -- to the Bathurst Herd 6 without any possible allocation to other herds. And -- 7 and again, that is before we have adjusted the outfitter 8 numbers down. 9 I know these numbers get confusing but, 10 Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to point out that we are now 11 currently by ENR estimates at 4.1 percent of a management 12 objective. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Go ahead. 14 Can you use the mic and state your name and who you 15 represent for the record. 16 MR. DARREN PICKUP: Darren Pickup, legal 17 counsel for the Government of the Northwest Territories. 18 Honourable Chairman, the purpose of the particular 19 session going on right now is for the question period of 20 -- of the presentations. 21 What seems to be occurring at this present 22 time, though is that this is being used to make a 23 presentation on facts, et cetera, which have not been 24 presented and I -- I believe that the more appropriate 25 time for Mr. Warner to present his information is during

1 their presentation that they'll be making later on. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could I ask Counsel, 3 John, to respond? 4 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: John Donihee, Board 5 Counsel. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Warner, of course, 6 is not a lawyer and not used to cross-examining people 7 and so, I -- I know it's difficult sometimes to get into 8 the flow of what's going on. But it's -- the intention, 9 really, is for you to ask questions of ENR and if you 10 want to bring these things up in the course of your 11 presentation to -- to the Board, you're next, the 12 outfitters are next. 13 It might be better to try and do it that 14 way, so my -- my suggestion is, in order to avoid having 15 counsel on its feet again, it would be good to try and 16 cast your statements as questions. 17 MR. BOYD WARNER: Thank you. Thank you. 18 I will direct questions specifically and not -- not try 19 and make statement. I just like some question on the -- 20 on the wolf harvest. 21 It was estimated that the outfitters kill 22 between ten (10) and I believe he said ten (10) and 23 twenty (20) wolves, maybe. I'm not sure who this 24 question is to, Mr. Chairman. Someone in ENR can answer. 25 But our records indicate that outfitters

1 last year killed well over fifty (50) wolves and I'm just 2 wondering if ENR has that correct information on the wolf 3 harvest by outfitters? 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Can we have 5 somebody from ENR answer that. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead, Susan. 10 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Okay. Susan Fleck, 11 ENR. Boyd, the information we have is twenty-six (26) 12 for last year, so we can see why we're missing wolves or 13 if we don't have all the information from everyone. 14 MR. BOYD WARNER: Thank you, Mr. 15 Chairman. One (1) final question before I turn it over 16 to my colleague is -- colleagues, is a large amount of 17 the information, Mr. Chairman, is being based on the 2006 18 Bathurst Caribou Survey. 19 I would like to ask if that survey is 20 complete and available for review? 21 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Susan Fleck, ENR. The 22 -- we've provided the data tables to people who have 23 asked for them. We have not completed the actual report. 24 MR. BOYD WARNER: Thank you, Mr. 25 Chairman, that is my questions for this time.

1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Warner. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Good morning. Thank 6 you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to clarify an issue here. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me. Could you 8 identify yourself and who you represent? 9 MR. JOHN ANDRE: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 10 My name is John Andre. I'm one (1) of the Barren Ground 11 outfitters. 12 Will we be able to ask the ENR during our 13 presentation questions? It may be more effective as a 14 learning tool for the Board if the question is asked at 15 the time the information is presented. 16 I can sit here and ask twenty-five (25) or 17 thirty (30) questions, but the information that that -- 18 those questions are being based on will be presented in 19 my presentation. So if during that presentation I can 20 ask the Board -- or, excuse me, ask the ENR questions, I 21 think it will be more helpful to the Board to learn at 22 the time -- you know, if I can ask questions about what I 23 say to the -- to the ENR, it will be more helpful as a 24 learning experience. What we're trying to do is educate 25 the Board what we believe is happening and I -- I think

1 if I can ask those questions during my presentation, 2 it'll be better for all concerned. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'll ask John to 4 respond to that. 5 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: John Donihee, for the 6 Board. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 7 Mr. Andre, I'm not quite clear what -- if 8 you have a presentation to make, you just make it and 9 other people will ask you questions about that. I -- I - 10 - you don't need to ask ENR about what you're going to 11 present, you can just present it. 12 If you have questions about what they have 13 presented, now's the time to do it. And if there's going 14 to be some dialogue between you and -- and ENR as a 15 result of you presenting different information, we'll 16 leave that to them to ask you about that and -- and get 17 it out that way. 18 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Yeah. John, my fear is 19 that -- that we won't be asked any questions. I'd like 20 to have a dialogue but that's been avoided here. And -- 21 and so I can ask questions now, but it's going to be 22 about information that has not been presented yet. So 23 it's your choice. I can do it either way. 24 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: John Donihee. Sir, 25 the problem in a way is that if you ask questions about

1 information that hasn't been presented, there's really no 2 foundation -- there's no basis for them to answer them. 3 They don't know -- they -- they probably haven't -- they 4 may not have seen what you have to ask about so -- 5 MR. JOHN ANDRE: The questions I will ask 6 will be based on their information. 7 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: On theirs? 8 MR. JOHN ANDRE: On what they have said, 9 yes. 10 MR. JOHN DONIHEE: Well then, I think 11 that's what this -- this is for. 12 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Okay, that's fine. 13 Okay. 14 According to the GNW -- excuse me. This - 15 - this is directed towards Ms. Fleck. 16 According to the GNWT website there were 17 three hundred and fifty-four thousand (354,000) caribou 18 in the NWT in 1980. In 2005 you reported to the Federal 19 Government 1,534,000 caribou in the Northwest 20 Territories. 21 If the caribou herd has been dropping 5 22 percent since 1986, how did the herd go from three 23 hundred and fifty-four thousand (354,000) to 1,534,000 in 24 the past twenty (20) years? 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead, Susan.

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Thank you. Susan 4 Fleck, ENR. A number of points. In 1980, the herd cycle 5 was low. The number of three hundred fifty-four thousand 6 (354,000) caribou comes from four (4) surveys. So, one 7 (1) survey was the Bathurst, there's a hundred and forty 8 thousand (140,000), estimated. One (1) is The Beverly, 9 there's a hundred and ten thousand (110,000) estimated. 10 One (1) is the Qamanirjuag, there was thirty-nine 11 thousand (39,000) estimated. And then there was a survey 12 of the area where the Cape Bathurst, the Bluenose East 13 and Bluenose West Herds are. The estimate was sixty-five 14 thousand (65,000). 15 So, there's no estimate from the Ahiak 16 Herd and it includes the Qamanirjuaq, which, for the most 17 part, is never in the Northwest Territories. 18 The estimate of 1.5 million caribou, that 19 the Canadian Cooperative Wildlife Health Centre received 20 from data that we provided to them, comes from surveys 21 that were conducted in the 1990s when caribou numbers 22 were higher. 23 The information they received including 24 the Porcupine Herd, which was a hundred and sixty 25 thousand (160,000) in 1992, that was that estimate; the

1 three (3) Bluenose Herds, the estimate was from 1992, it 2 was a hundred and twenty-two thousand (122,000); the 3 Bathurst Herd estimate was three hundred fifty thousand 4 (350,000) from 1996; the Ahiak Herd says hundred and 5 seventy thousand (170,000) from 1996. 6 It also includes the Beverly Herd, two 7 hundred and eighty-six thousand (286,000) from a survey 8 done in 1994, which is the last time that herd was 9 surveyed, and the Qamanirjuag Herd, four hundred and 10 ninety-six thousand (496,000), which was surveyed in 1994 11 and that's the last time that herd has been surveyed, as 12 well. 13 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Excuse me, Susan, I -- 14 I'm a little hard of hearing. May I direct this back to 15 her, do I need to go -- what -- what was the date you 16 gave for the Bathurst Survey? 17 Did you use the 2006 numbers of did you 18 use the '96 numbers? 19 MS. SUSAN FLECK: The information was 20 provided to the Canadian Wildlife Cooperative Health 21 Centre in 19 -- in 2004. It comes from an information 22 base that was used to produce a report in the year 2000 23 of the status of all species in the Northwest 24 Territories. So, that information base does not change - 25 - is not updated as a new survey is done.

1 So, the information didn't provide the 2 2003 survey, which was the most recent one for Bathurst. 3 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Mr. Chairman, I'd like 4 to direct this again at Ms. Fleck. 5 In January of 2007, you told CBC News, in 6 the late 1990s we started documented a decline and the 7 surveys we have done now show a 70 percent decline in 8 most of the herds. 9 What are documents from the 1990's, that 10 you mention in -- in that statement? I -- I've not been 11 able to find them anywhere. 12 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Sorry, could you repeat 13 the question, please. 14 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Yes. In 2007, of 15 January 26, you told CBC News that in the late 1990's we 16 started documenting a decline and the surveys we have 17 done now show a 70 percent decline in most of the herds. 18 What are the documents from the 1990s that 19 show the herds declining? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MS. SUSAN FLECK: In -- Susan Fleck, ENR. 24 In the presentation I indicated that we look at 25 information from a number of surveys in a row, so in 2000

1 -- we did a survey in 2006, in 2003 and in 1996. Prior 2 to that there was a survey in 1990 and 1986. The number 3 in 1986 was the highest number. The numbers from 1990 4 and 1996 are not significantly different but were lower. 5 And then in 2003 they were significantly lower. 6 So using that information, those last 7 three (3) surveys, we would see that there is a decline 8 and there had been fewer caribou in the 1990s than had 9 been recorded in 1996. 10 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Mr. Chairman, this is 11 for Sue again. I'm not trying to pick on you here, Sue. 12 Who is the head wildlife caribou biologist 13 for the ENR in the 1990s? 14 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Susan Fleck, ENR. Anne 15 Gunn was the ungulate biologist in the 1990s. 16 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Okay. I'd -- I'd like 17 to just read a statement that Ms. Gunn made. In 2001 she 18 said -- she's speaking of the caribou in the Northwest 19 Territories: 20 "The reality of further declines in the 21 early 1980s was controversial and by 22 the 1990s it became obvious that the 23 herds of barren ground caribou had 24 increased in size up to five (5) fold. 25 Currently on the mainland tundra, the

1 four (4) largest herds of barren ground 2 caribou -- Bathurst, Beverly, 3 Quamanirjuag and Queen Maud Gulf 4 totalled 1.4 million caribou in the 5 mid-1990s and are probably stable or 6 increasing." 7 Now this book was written in 2001. Why 8 would she say that about a herd that had been declining, 9 according to your statements, 5 percent every year since 10 1986? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Susan Fleck, ENR. I'd 15 be speculating if I knew why Anne made that statement, so 16 I won't do that. One (1) comment on your note of 5 17 percent decline -- the press release that we put out 18 talked about a 5 percent decline in the last decade which 19 would be when we did the last survey -- or a decade ago 20 was when we did the 1996 survey and we compared the 21 information from the 1996, the 2003 and the 2006 survey. 22 MR. JOHN ANDRE: I'd like to direct this 23 to Ms. Fleck. 24 But -- but, you have been pointing out to 25 the world, to the Aboriginal groups, to the outfitters

1 and to the resident hunters, the 1986 survey which -- 2 where you show the caribou going from four hundred and 3 seventy thousand (470,000) down to a hundred and twenty- 4 eight thousand (128,000) caribou. 5 Well, that's very frightening to everybody 6 involved. Why is that your now pointing to the 1996 7 surveys when you've been telling the world that the 1986 8 survey of four hundred and seventy-six thousand 9 (476,000), that's the survey you keep pointing out to the 10 world and now you keep talking about the 1996 survey? 11 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Susan Fleck, ENR. When 12 I talk about the last three (3) surveys I talk about the 13 trend that were looking at now. If we want to look at 14 where we think -- how big the herd was at one time, 15 that's when we refer to the information from 1986. 16 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 17 In 1986, Mr. Case indicates that two (2) herds got 18 together, he -- he says that in the 1996 Bathurst 19 Management Caribou -- Management Plan for the Bathurst 20 caribou. So, it is possible -- either Bruno or Susan can 21 answer thus question. 22 It is possible that during these surveys, 23 two (2) herds get together and so you get a skewed 24 number, is -- is that correct? 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MS. SUSAN FLECK: I was on the calving 4 ground survey for 1986. That was the year that they were 5 on either side of Bathurst Inlet. 6 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Excuse me. On the 7 eastern side? 8 MS. SUSAN FLECK: They were calving on 9 both sides of the inlet. We were flying transics 10 (phonetic), where you start at 400 feet above the ground 11 and then there's a cliff that you're facing that's 1,000 12 feet high. At the same time that we were doing that 13 survey, Anne was over on the eastern -- to the east and 14 was delineating the calving ground for the Ahiak Herd. 15 We've been also looking at -- so, first of 16 all, we -- we did delineate that year, two (2) separate 17 calving grounds. And secondly, in the last ten (10) 18 years that we've had satellite collars on the caribou, we 19 haven't seen anything to suggest that there's large scale 20 movements from one (1) herd to another herd. 21 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Mr. Chairman, this is to 22 Ms. Fleck. In 1986, the survey you were just speaking 23 about, you just said that Anne Gunn was over there 24 looking at the Ahiak Herd. Well, the Ahiak Herd was not 25 delineated until the year 2000.

1 How could she have possibly been over 2 there looking at the Ahiak Herd? 3 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Susan Fleck, ENR. As I 4 said in my presentation, I also did the surveys in 1979, 5 1980, '82, '84 and '86. In 1979, the numbers were very 6 low and we did a lot of flying to ensure that we had 7 found the Bathurst calving ground. We knew at that time 8 there were animals that calved to the east in the Queen 9 Maud Gulf area which is the Ahiak area. We didn't do -- 10 we didn't delineate those calving grounds because we 11 didn't fly over quite that far, but we've always known 12 those animals exist. 13 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Well, this is for Ms. 14 Fleck. Is it your position that all caribou that now 15 calve on the east side of the inlet are Ahiak caribou? 16 If that was historically Bathurst caribou 17 calving grounds, according to your maps, on the east side 18 of the inlet, and you just said that in '86 that's where 19 you were, is it your position that all caribou calving on 20 the east side of the inlet are now Ahiak caribou? 21 As least as far -- I'm not -- you know, 22 within certain distances of the -- of the inlet. I'm not 23 talking about all the way to the Beverly grounds. 24 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Susan Fleck, ENR. In 25 the presentation I showed a slide, confusing slide, which

1 has all the different surveys that have been done on the 2 Bathurst herd. It's our view that the Bathurst herd 3 uses, can use, both sides within about, I think it's a 4 100 kilometres to the east. And the Ahiak animals have 5 been east of there from what we've seen. So I tried to 6 have a -- find a map so I could show people how that 7 works. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Okay, if you look at 12 this map, this is from -- this shows the movements in 13 2005 so this is where the Bathurst calved in 2005. 1986 14 they calved in here. In 1979 and '80 they calved in this 15 area here. This is the Ahiak animals and what we've been 16 seeing in the five (5) years that we have information is 17 the Ahiak animals are using this area here for calving. 18 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Thank -- thank you, 19 Susan. This question is for -- for Bruno. 20 Bruno, in your 2001 to 2004 calf survival 21 and adult sex ratio in the Bathurst herd of barren ground 22 caribou, in the -- in the abstract you talk about the 23 proportion of bulls in the Bathurst herd in the fall of 24 2004 was low and then it says 37 percent. 25 Now, is that -- when you say 37 percent,

1 do you actually mean a bull-to-cow ratio of thirty-seven 2 (37) bulls per hundred (100) cows? It's interchanged 3 here a little bit and it's not -- it's not accurate. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. BRUNO CROFT: Mr. Chairman, can I ask 8 clarification on the question? Are you attributing this 9 report to me, like I wrote this report? 10 MR. JOHN ANDRE: No. 11 MR. BRUNO CROFT: Oh, okay. 12 MR. JOHN ANDRE: In other words, you 13 obviously have been working with the bull-to-cow ratio 14 and -- and I'm not attributing the report to you, I'm 15 asking you a question. In the abstract it says 37 16 percent, okay? I'll read it to you again, okay? It 17 says: 18 "The proportion of bulls in the 19 Bathurst herd in the fall of 2004 was 20 low." 21 And then it says "37 percent." 22 Well, 37 percent is a bull-to-cow ratio of 23 fifty-nine (59) to a hundred (100). 24 MR. BRUNO CROFT: Mr. Chairman, we're 25 talking here thirty-seven (37) bulls per a hundred (100)

1 cows for the -- for the fall composition work done in 2 2004. 3 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Oh, okay. Thank you, 4 Bruno. Okay. Mr. Chairman, this -- this to Bruno. 5 In most of the herds in Alaska they stayed 6 as a goal, and I'll show this later on, a goal, a 7 management goal, of a bull-to-cow ratio of between thirty 8 (30) and forty (40), in some cases twenty (20) to forty 9 (40), but generally speaking the desired goal is thirty 10 (30) to forty (40) bulls per one hundred (100) cows. 11 What is it about the Bathurst herd that 12 you I've identified that you feel that they need a much 13 higher percentage of bulls? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. BRUNO CROFT: Mr. Chairman, what we 18 know from comparing sex ratios from other herds in 19 Alaska, those are our reference measure, is that when 20 those herds were surveyed, for example the Western Arctic 21 herd, when -- when the bull ratio was at 31 percent, the 22 count is low. The survey indicated low numbers. When 23 the number is at forty-seven (47) it seems to be leaning 24 to a -- a herd increasing. When the herd is at around 60 25 percent it's a herd that is stable. And if a herd is --

1 if the bull-to-cow ratio is higher than that, you have -- 2 you have a herd that is in very good shape. 3 So we use those measures to compare where 4 we're at. We do not know what is a threshold. The 5 Bathurst Caribou Management Plan recommends that when you 6 hit the 30 to 40 percent that you should be careful -- if 7 I may finish, Mr. Chairman -- that we should be careful 8 with -- with the sex ratio in the herd. 9 We know -- I do know from talking to Anne 10 in referring -- some of the numbers that he had -- I 11 believe it was an enchina (phonetic) herd that when the 12 sex ratio in that herd was making 20 and 30 percent they 13 had concern about a harvest and they had to reduce the 14 harvest on the bulls until it looks a little better. 15 So we have to be careful when we reach 16 those thresholds. 17 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 18 I -- I just want to make sure that -- Bruno, if you say 19 20 to 30 percent, that is not the same, you understand, 20 as the twenty (20) cows per one hundred and twenty (120) 21 total? In other words, I just want to make sure that 22 we're -- we're on the same page here. 23 MR. BRUNO CROFT: Mr. Chairman, Bruno 24 Croft. I'm sorry, I'm talking twenty (20) or thirty (30) 25 bulls per hundred (100) cows always.

1 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Okay. Thank you. In 2 this survey where the Government determines that the 3 Bathurst herd has been dropping 5 percent for every year 4 for the last twenty (20) years, it bases that finding on 5 a cow mortality rate, an annual cow mortality rate of 21 6 percent. In 1996 Mr. Case, in his Bathurst Caribou 7 Management Plan, said that it was for -- he states that 8 the calf -- or, excuse me, the cow mortality rate is 8 9 percent. 10 What is it that you've identified that has 11 caused the annual cow mortality rate to go from 8 percent 12 in 1996 to 21 percent now, as you say, for the last 13 twenty-one (21) or twenty (20) years? That's -- that's 14 for Bruno. 15 MR. BRUNO CROFT: Mr. Chairman, can I ask 16 John to repeat the question please? I'm sorry, I missed 17 that, John. 18 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Okay. In 1996 Ray Case 19 said the annual -- the estimated annual cow mortality 20 rate was 8 percent. He also cited Tom Berger's work 21 where the overall mortality rate for herds -- for ten 22 (10) herds in North America -- was 10 percent. Now in a 23 document of calf survival and adult sex ratio in a 24 Bathurst herd of barren ground caribou 2001/2004, this is 25 the document where you -- the Government creates the

1 theory that this herd has fallen 5 percent every year 2 since 1986. It uses a cow mortality rate of 21 percent 3 per year. 4 Now, given that, if, for instance, we have 5 cow mortality one year of 10 percent, to average 21 6 percent the next year we would have to lose 33 percent or 7 one third (1/3) of the cows. I don't believe that that 8 21 percent can possibly be a good number. Could you 9 explain it to me, please. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead. 14 MR. BRUNO CROFT: Mr. Chairman, all I 15 know on -- on cow survival for the Bathurst herd is based 16 on -- on the work that Anne Gunn did recently, and I 17 believe it's going to be published in her paper on 18 modelling, and the survival rate was about 82 percent on 19 females. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 24 I just would like to clarify that, from Bruno, is the 25 Government saying now that this report is incorrect?

1 In other words, they now have information 2 that is saying the -- the cow survival rate is 18 3 percent, is that correct? And if that's true, what is it 4 that Anne Gunn identified that the cow survival rate 5 increased from 8 percent to 18 percent? What is it? Is 6 this a wolf problem? What is creating this -- this 7 problem, sir? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just before you answer 9 that, Bruno, I'd like to know what report you're 10 referring to. I don't think we have -- 11 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Yeah, this, sir, is the 12 calf survival and adult sex ration that they referred to 13 -- that Anne referred to -- or I'm sorry, that Sue 14 referred to in her report. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you. Go 16 ahead, Bruno. 17 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Thank you. 18 MR. BRUNO CROFT: Mr. Chairman, I'm 19 referring to 82 percent survival rate of female, which 20 would be 18 percent mortality rate. 21 MR. JOHN ANDRE: I -- I'm sorry, Bruno, I 22 didn't hear that. I -- I'm -- 23 MR. BRUNO CROFT: The -- what I'm quoting 24 you is 82 percent survival rate based on the latest work 25 that Anne Gunn had done on the -- on the -- with using

1 satellite collared females. 2 MR. JOHN ANDRE: It's 8 percent? 3 MR. BRUNO CROFT: Eighty-two (82), 82 4 percent survival rate. 5 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Survival rate. Which is 6 an 18 percent mortality rate. 7 MR. BRUNO CROFT: That's correct. 8 MR. JOHN ANDRE: But -- but, Mr. Case 9 said it was 8 percent and what I'm trying to determine is 10 -- is why has that increased in the last ten (10) years? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Susan Fleck, ENR. I'm 15 sorry, I'm not familiar with the report you're referring 16 to. So, I haven't read them all, like I think you have. 17 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Okay. This -- this is 18 the report where you talk about in -- in your -- in your 19 presentation about the numbers of calves -- the cow/calf 20 ratios from 2001 to 2004. You say they're dropping, but 21 the report says they're not statistically different and 22 then you state that the way you make your calculations 23 from 1986 to 2005, when this report was -- was -- was 24 issued, the part of the calculation is a -- based on a 79 25 percent cow survival rate which creates -- it was the

1 same thing as a 21 percent cow mortality rate. 2 Now, Ray Case, in 1996, ten (10) years 3 into that period, says that the cow mortality rate is 8 4 percent. So, that has gone up somewhere between 10 and 5 13 percent, depending on which information the Government 6 wants to provide. 7 So, what has created that increase in cow 8 mortality rate. I mean, we're talking about trying to 9 save caribou here. We need to know what's killing them. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Susan Fleck, ENR. I -- 14 I can't answer your question. I don't have an answer for 15 why. Most of the time we spend our effort following -- 16 trying to determine what's happening to them, to the 17 herd, and we don't always have the answer for why. 18 MR. JOHN ANDRE: The study that we have 19 in -- Excuse me Mr. Chairman. This is for Sue Fleck. 20 The study that we haven't been -- that we haven't seen 21 where the mortality rate comes down, is that based on 22 collared cows, the death of collared cows? Do you know? 23 MR. BRUNO CROFT: Mr. Chairman, the 24 numbers we're talking about here, John, is based on a 25 study of collared cows, yes.

1 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Thank you, Bruno. Mr. 2 Chairman, this is for Bruno again. 3 Since 1997 to 2003, we had an average of 4 ten (10) collared caribou. In 2003/2004, we had eight 5 (8) collared caribou. The -- the proper cert -- sample 6 size for a herd this size is ninety-six (96). I promised 7 Bruno that we'd try to get him some more collars. 8 How -- with the surv -- with the sample 9 size that small, how can you come up with data like that? 10 Do you honestly believe that we are losing 11 20 percent -- one (1) out of five (5) of our cows every 12 year, our adult cows? Is -- is that what you believe for 13 the last twenty (20) years? And if that's the case, how 14 did the herd go from three hundred and fifty four 15 thousand (354,000) in 1980 to one million five hundred 16 and thirty-four thousand (1,534,000) today? 17 MS. SUSAN FLECK: If you look back at the 18 presentation we comment that a number of factors are 19 changing over time. One (1) those is also the number of 20 animals that are being born and come into the herd. That 21 affects the size of the herd as much as survival of 22 adults and that's been going down. 23 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Okay. Thank you, Mr. 24 Chairman. 25 I don't -- I don't have any more questions

1 for right now. Excuse me, yes, I do, I have one (1) more 2 question. Sorry. I've actually got a lot more questions 3 but I know we want to get something to eat here so... 4 If we are harvesting, meaning all the 5 Aboriginals, the residents, and the non-residents, if we 6 are harvesting Bluenose East caribou and we are 7 harvesting Bathurst caribou and we're applying a 4 8 percent number, why don't we add up the Bluenose East 9 herd and the Bathurst herd numbers when we apply that 4 10 percent? That -- that just seems logical to me. I don't 11 understand how we can apply a number from one (1) herd 12 when we're harvesting from at least two (2) herds. Would 13 you explain that, please? 14 MS. SUSAN FLECK: Again, in the 15 presentation I mentioned that the Bluenose East herd is 16 also harvested by people in the Sahtu; those are the main 17 people who hunt that herd and they have also -- the Board 18 there has looked at that herd and also has recommended a 19 voluntary total allowable harvest of 4 percent. 20 So if you add the two (2) herds together 21 and take 4 percent, you're going to have to divide it 22 among twice as many groups because it includes the people 23 from the Sahtu as well. 24 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Okay. Thank you, Susan. 25 In 1996 Ray Case and Bathurst Manage -- excuse me, may I

1 ask one (1) more question or can we go to lunch? 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: One (1) more. 3 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Thank you. In 1996 Ray 4 Case and the Bathurst Management Plan said that we 5 harvest from Beverly Caribou here and the Bathurst region 6 during the winter. If the Ahiak herd sits in between the 7 Beverly herd and the Bathurst herd, how can we possibly 8 not be harvesting some of them? Is it your position that 9 hunters are -- are riding by Ahiak herd so they can go 10 shoot Beverly herd caribou? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MS. SUSAN FLECK: I'm sorry, John, I'm 15 not familiar with that statement? 16 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Okay. I'll -- I'll 17 restate it, okay? 18 Geographically, the Ahiak herd sits in 19 between -- it sits east of the Bathurst herd and it sits 20 west of the Beverly herd. It is in between the two (2). 21 If in 1996 Ray Case says we're harvesting not only from 22 Bathurst caribou but from Beverly caribou, how is it now 23 that we aren't -- we're not harvesting any animals in 24 between? 25 The Ahiak sits in between the Bathurst and

1 the Beverly. How is it that we can't be -- possibly be 2 harvesting anywhere? According to the ENR, there has 3 never been an Ahiak caribou harvest by Aboriginals, by 4 residents, or by non-residents and it's -- since it's the 5 third largest herd in the Northwest Territories, how can 6 it sustain zero harvest? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MS. SUSAN FLECK: I don't think ENR has 11 said that there's no Aboriginal harvest. What I said was 12 that this is the Ahiak herd here; I said that harvest is 13 very low. There's a community way over here, Baker Lake, 14 there's a community up here, Bathurst Inlet, and Lutsel 15 K'e is here. So the winter road goes up like this. 16 There is some harvest from this herd, but we expect it to 17 be very low. 18 The Beverly herd, we haven't got -- we've 19 just put five (5) radio collars on. We only have -- we 20 have information from tags from long ago. This is the 21 area that's our understanding of where they are. Their 22 calving grounds are here and here. This area. 23 So, the five (5) collars we have on right 24 now -- this is from a month ago and this is -- these 25 orange ones are the Beverly. They're not over in this

1 area. They are in this area. This area can sometimes be 2 used by the Bathurst herd as well. The Bathurst 3 Management Plan is intended to cover that area, so there 4 should be reference to Ahiak also being in part of that 5 area. 6 MR. JOHN ANDRE: Susan, could -- excuse 7 me, Mr. Chairman, may I just comment on that map there? 8 I see Ahiak caribou between Wekweti and 9 Gameti and yet you're saying there's no harvest for 10 those. And previously here you said there may be a small 11 harvest from the Ahiak herd. The outfitters are only 12 17/100s of 1 percent away from reaching their management 13 goal of 4 percent. If we're harvesting even two (2) or 14 three hundred (300) from the Ahiak herd, then we were -- 15 are within the management plan that the Government is -- 16 is recommending. 17 So why are we -- we destroying this 18 industry if we're within the management plan of the 19 Government? 20 MR. DARREN PICKUP: Mr. Chairman, Darren 21 Pickup, legal counsel of the GNWT. I'm concerned again 22 that they're -- the utilization of this question period 23 is used to be making statements rather than asking ENR 24 staff questi