1 2 3 4 TORONTO COMPUTER LEASING INQUIRY 5 6 7 8 ******************** 9 10 11 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE MADAM JUSTICE DENISE BELLAMY, 12 COMMISSIONER 13 14 15 16 17 Held at: East York Civic Centre 18 850 Coxwell Avenue 19 Toronto, Ontario 20 M4C 5R1 21 22 ******************** 23 24 25 May 15th, 2003

2
  1                        APPEARANCES
  2  Ronald Manes            )Commission Counsel 
  3  Patrick Moore  (np)     )
  4  Daina Groskaufmanis     ) 
  5  Linda Rothstein         )City of Toronto 
  6  Lily Harmer    (np)     )
  7  Robert Centa            )
  8  Gordon Capern  (np)     )
  9  David Moore             )MFP 
 10  Fraser Berrill  (np)    ) 
 11  Ken Jones      (np)     ) 
 12  Brian Heller   (np)     )Ball Hsu and Associates Ltd.
 13  Melissa Kronick (np)    )CUPE 
 14  Raj Anand      (np)     )Lana Viinamae
 15  Bay Ryley               )
 16  William Anderson        )Wanda Liczyk
 17  Valerie Dyer    (np)    )Dell Computers
 18  Jennifer Lynch   (np)   )
 19  Edward Greenspan (np)   )Jeff Lyons
 20  Todd White     (np)     )
 21  Hugh MacKenzie          )Jim Andrew
 22  Jennifer Searle (np)    )
 23  Alan D. Gold            )Tom Jakobek
 24  Lorne Honickman         )
 25  Joyce Ihamaki           )Registrar

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 4 Exhibits 4 5 6 THOMAS R. JAKOBEK, Resumed, 7 Continued Examination-in-Chief by 8 Mr. Ronald Manes 5 9 10 Certificate of Transcript 204 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 4 33 VOLUME I Bound document titled 220 5 "Tom Jakobek" 6 Additional tab 92 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 10:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: The Inquiry is now in session. 4 Please be seated. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Good morning. 9 THE WITNESS: Good morning, ma'am. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes...? 11 12 (WITNESS RESUMES) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 15 Q: Good morning, Mr. Jakobek. 16 A: Good morning. 17 Q: Mr. Jakobek, yesterday you told the 18 Commission the truth about the -- what I'll call the 19 Philadelphia denial. 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: The Toronto Star have reported today that 22 January 27th, 2003, just two (2) days after the Diebel 23 article, that a lawyer acting for you which said as follows: 24 "Mr. Jakobek has stated that he did not 25 attend on such a trip and will repeat that

1 under oath when he gives evidence at the 2 Inquiry. Mr. Jakobek stands by his 3 statement that he did not attend the trip 4 and he is in a position to know." 5 Firstly, is that right? There was a letter 6 sent that stated this by your lawyer -- by your lawyer, 7 January 27th, 2003? 8 A: I believe the lawyer that I had at the 9 time, who is not here today, sent a letter and he's not my 10 solicitor at this point and wasn't later on. 11 Q: To answer my question, did the lawyer 12 acting for you on January 27th, 2003, send the letter that I 13 just quoted from? 14 A: I believe he sent a letter. I don't have 15 the one you're quoting so I don't have it before me but I'm 16 -- I'm saying to you I believe he sent a letter and that was 17 the solicitor I had at the time, yes. 18 Q: When you say you believe he sent the 19 letter, did he send the letter or not, Mr. Jakobek? 20 A: Mr. Manes, I don't have the letter in 21 front of me and you're giving me a date. So I'm just -- I'm 22 assuming you're correct and I'm agreeing with you but I don't 23 actually physically have the letter in front of me, but I 24 believe that my lawyer at the time who is not here and is not 25 my solicitor now, in fact, sent a letter to the Toronto Star.

1 Q: The letter was sent on your instructions, 2 correct? 3 A: I believe he told me at the time he was 4 going to send a letter and was that all right and I basically 5 said, yes, you know, send a letter to the Star. I don't -- I 6 don't believe I went into the details of the letter at the 7 time but I -- I'm -- I'm guessing right now, not with 8 accurate information and a letter in front of me. 9 Q: You authorized your lawyer to send a 10 letter to the Toronto Star on your behalf denying that any 11 such trip had ever taken place and stating that you would 12 repeat this under oath when you gave evidence at the Inquiry, 13 is that true? 14 A: I don't have the letter in front of me, 15 Mr. Manes, and I don't remember my specific instructions to 16 my solicitor, who is no longer my solicitor. 17 So, I would -- I do not -- I do not, at this 18 point, know the exact wording that I instructed him, or 19 didn't instruct him to do. 20 Q: I am reading, sir, as I take it that you 21 can read from a quote in the Toronto Star, of a letter that 22 they received from your lawyer. 23 A: Mr. Manes -- Mr. Manes, I -- I've learnt 24 not to believe everything written in every newspaper, 25 particularly the Toronto Star.

1 So, I -- I don't have it in front of me. And 2 I can only say to you, I would also have to recall what 3 specific instruction there were. 4 He is not my solicitor today, and I really 5 can't add more to that. 6 Q: Well, perhaps you can tell me this, sir. 7 Did you receive a copy of the letter that you authorized your 8 solicitor to send to the Toronto Star, on or about January 9 27th, 2003? 10 A: Mr. Manes, I believe I said to you that 11 the solicitor that I had at the time sent a letter to the 12 Toronto Star, that I understand that, in fact, I did have a 13 solicitor who I do not have anymore, that he did send a 14 letter to the Toronto Star. 15 I don't remember right now, at this moment, 16 the exact letter, nor the instruction, but I want to answer 17 your question by saying, it has never, ever, ever, been my 18 intent to mislead, or whatever, this Inquiry. 19 In fact, since August I have wanted to come, 20 and I've wanted to be here, and I've wanted to state my 21 situation and I really couldn't add more to it. 22 Q: I'm talking about since January 27th, 23 2003, and your situation, sir. Can you answer my question, 24 did you get a copy of a letter that your lawyer sent, on or 25 about that date, to the Toronto Star?

1 A: Ma'am, I can't answer the question any 2 more than I already have. It's been repeated to me, but I -- 3 I've given you the best answer I possible can right now. 4 I don't have the letter in front of me. 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I just -- I think Mr. 6 Manes is just asking whether your lawyer sent you a copy of 7 letter that he sent to the Toronto Star. 8 That's all he's asking. 9 THE WITNESS: I have to assume he would. I -- 10 I just can't, for the life of me, remember right this second. 11 MR. RONALD MANES: Sir -- 12 THE WITNESS: I -- I had differences of 13 opinion on certain issues, and -- and I have a solicitor 14 today, and I really don't know that I can add more to what 15 I've tried to add to you. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 18 Q: I'm not interested in any -- 19 A: But I want to make it absolutely clear, 20 Mr. Manes, that no matter what anyone says or does, I have 21 never had any intention of telling you anything other than 22 the truth. 23 Q: I'm not interested in any privileged 24 communication between yourself and your solicitor -- 25 solicitors, whether former or present.

1 What I am interested is in an answer as to 2 whether you have this letter in your possession, power, or 3 control? 4 A: I -- I just don't have an answer for you. 5 Q: Do you have the letter, yes or no? 6 A: I -- I do not know if I have that letter 7 in my personal -- like, I've given most of my stuff to my 8 current lawyer. 9 I do not know that I have any other letters. 10 Q: Now, Mr. Jakobek, you're under subpoena, 11 the subpoena requires you to bring all relevant documents 12 here, and I'm asking you to produce that document today, 13 before I am done examining you. 14 If you have to make a call, if you have to 15 speak with your lawyers, whatever will assist you in 16 providing this letter to the Commission, you tell me? 17 A: Well, my lawyer is sitting right there, 18 and I'll ask him to make sure that he checks with his office 19 because I can tell you, Mr. Manes, that I don't think I have 20 two (2) pieces of paper regarding this Inquiry at home. 21 I've -- I've been forwarding, and I've been 22 making sure that everything goes to my solicitors office. 23 So, I -- 24 MR. ALAN GOLD: And, Your Honour, just -- just 25 for the record, it would have been nice if Mr. Manes had

1 raised this with us before we began. 2 The first time hearing about any request for 3 this letter was right now when he's questioning. So, I just 4 want to put on the record, this was not something that was 5 asked before we began at ten o'clock. 6 THE WITNESS: I want to make it clear, if -- 7 if there's anything that you're looking for, when I'm asked, 8 I make sure that I produce it, and I produce it as soon as I 9 possible can. 10 I'm instructing my lawyer, as I'm sitting 11 here, to find whatever it is you're asking for. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 14 Q: All right. And I appreciate that, sir. 15 Let me go on. Well, do you need this letter in front of you 16 for -- to answer questions that I have with respect to 17 whether you were stating through your lawyer at that time, on 18 January 27th, 2003, that you were going to come here and give 19 evidence under oath that you did not attend the trip? 20 A: I'm going to tell you that if -- if the 21 letter exists as you've described it then the letter is in 22 error because it has never, ever been in my intention to come 23 here and mislead the Inquiry. Period. End quote and you can 24 produce any letter you want and I'm sure we'll get whatever 25 you want. I've never had any, any moment where I have

1 thought that I was going to tell you anything that was 2 incorrect. 3 I made a mistake with the media, I have 4 apologized for it. I don't know how many times I've 5 apologized for it. I have much regret for it, but the 6 reality is I did what I did, I have to take responsibility 7 for what I said and I would like to help you in any way I can 8 today. 9 And I'm -- I'm saying to you, if you wish to 10 belabour the point, that I, under no circumstances, ever had 11 any intent of doing anything other than telling you straight 12 out what the world is and what I did or what I didn't do and 13 what I said or what I didn't say, what's correct and what's 14 not correct. 15 Q: All right. Well, I -- Mr. Jakobek, I hear 16 your statement and we'll wait until we get production of this 17 letter until I ask anymore questions about it and I'll simply 18 go on with my examination. 19 Now, let me go back to where I -- where I 20 started with you. Yesterday, sir, you did tell us the truth 21 about the Philadelphia denial? 22 A: Yes, Mr. Manes. 23 Q: All right. You told us that the 24 Philadelphia denial had nothing to do with distancing 25 yourself from Mr. Domi or MFP?

1 A: Correct. 2 Q: You denied at that time any reference to 3 you being a, quote: 4 "Big MFP guy" 5 Was wrong? 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I -- that's -- that had a 7 bit too many negatives for me to figure out what -- you 8 denied...? 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 11 Q: You denied that you are not a, quote: 12 "Big MFP guy"? 13 A: I believe that you pulled out some notes 14 from Ms. Susan Cross, notes which you prefaced with a number 15 of suggestions that a) we don't know the accuracy of the 16 notes; b) we don't know where we're coming from; c) if I read 17 this correctly that she can't even remember if she wrote that 18 or how she wrote it or whatever and where there was some 19 comment about that -- what -- that statement that you just 20 made and I said I -- I have absolutely no knowledge of it and 21 I certainly don't believe it's true. 22 Q: All right and you said yesterday that as 23 far as you were concerned, the Philadelphia trip was a Harold 24 Peerenboom trip, not a Dash Domi trip? 25 A: Yes, that's right.

1 Q: All right and sir, the expenses that were 2 claimed by Mr. Domi in Tab 14, I won't refer you to that tab. 3 We don't need to go there. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Of which volume? 5 MR. RONALD MANES: Volume I. 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 9 Q: The expenses claimed by Mr. Domi -- 10 A: Like? 11 Q: -- which involved you were illegitimate 12 except for two (2) ordinary breakfast informational meetings 13 and of course, the Philadelphia trip? That would be right? 14 A: One was a breakfast. If my memory serves 15 me right, the other one was a breakfast or a lunch. I can't 16 remember. It was at the Colony. 17 Q: Yes but -- 18 A: Both -- both near City Hall. 19 Q: Yes. Those two (2) were legitimate. The 20 oth -- 21 A: Those I have an absolute total yes, I 22 remember that breakfast, I remember that lunch. I remember 23 the individuals, I can tell you 100 percent they did occur. 24 Q: All right. The other ones did not occur? 25 A: Absolutely not other than the by-chance

1 ones where I'm at the hockey game, I'm with other people. 2 I'm in my own seats and I run into these people. 3 Q: Run into these people doesn't make 4 legitimate putting in an expense slip and expensing you as 5 some kind of expense when you -- 6 A: Well, certainly when I'm not drinking and 7 the most I could have had if I was there long enough was a 8 soda water and they've got a bill of five (5) or six hundred 9 dollars ($600). No. 10 Q: Correct and you told us yesterday that the 11 Philadelphia denial had nothing to do with the Policy and 12 Finance amendment? 13 A: Absolutely not. 14 Q: I -- sir, as I understand it, you had no 15 involvement in the staff decision in September 1999, to 16 extend the term of the lease, or most of the leases from 17 three (3) to five (5) years? 18 A: Absolutely. The only issue that I think 19 we did discuss was the fact that at the meeting there was a 20 discussion about the report, and that's the report in July, 21 at the meeting that I wrote this motion, that I -- I asked, I 22 think, Ms. Liczyk, and -- who was beside her -- maybe Len 23 Brittain, or someone like, whether it addressed the issue 24 that we spoke of at the Committee, and they said yes, and I 25 moved motions.

1 What my recollection is, that I actually moved 2 it, not someone else, someone seconded it, and we approved 3 it. 4 Q: I'm talking about direct involvement in 5 August/September in the staff decision to extend the -- most 6 of the leases from three (3) to five (5) years? 7 A: I was unaware of any -- 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: -- action by staff. And I don't believe I 10 was ever notified by any action by staff. The only -- only 11 involvement I had was when it came to committees. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Just on that point, Mr. 13 Jakobek, did any of the staff every tell you, when you asked 14 Ms. Liczyk or maybe Mr. Brittain, did they -- and you told 15 them of your amendment that you were thinking of making, did 16 either of them, or anyone else of the staff, ever tell you 17 that, in fact, in the body of the report there was a 18 recommendation that had an extension on it that would have 19 addressed your concerns? 20 THE WITNESS: Well, we -- we reviewed that, 21 Madam Commissioner, yesterday and I am still of the firm 22 believe that unless that recommendation in the bottom of the 23 report was echoed in the actual recommendation, because it's 24 really under discussion. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right.

1 THE WITNESS: It's not a recommendation. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: No, I understand. 3 THE WITNESS: It's under discussion. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: But what I'm saying is, 5 did anyone, given that that was in the body of the report, it 6 was in the background, and given that the staff knew what you 7 wanted to do; did anybody say, well, you know, the 8 recommendation -- the draft recommendation, or the possible 9 options, I guess it was, the three (3) options, that the one 10 (1) that's in there, if you take that one and just put it 11 into the recommendations it will do exactly what you're 12 trying to do? 13 THE WITNESS: Well, I certainly wish they had 14 said that. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: So, nobody said that to 16 you? Okay. 17 THE WITNESS: No. And our whole -- I continue 18 to use the word, our, because I was not alone. There were 19 eleven (11) people, and there was an open discussion and 20 debate. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right. 22 THE WITNESS: Our whole discussion was of not 23 repeating 1998, where everybody got brand new computers 24 whether they asked for them or not. 25 And where no one could figure out who

1 authorized the payment for them, okay? 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes. 3 THE WITNESS: And so, we just didn't want 4 another repeat. And we just wanted to basically make it very 5 sure, you know, what happens. 6 Can you -- how do you make sure, is this 7 motion okay; yes, it is. You know, if you can put yourself 8 in my position, you -- there's a discussion, you draft 9 something, you show it to the people who are responsible, 10 they tell you it's okay, the secretary accepts it, the 11 Committee Chair accepts it, someone else seconds it, the 12 Committee votes it as a whole, it gets sent around to every 13 staff person; Audit, Legal, CEO, you name it. 14 Nobody has a problem, nobody has a question, 15 nobody has a concern, Council adopts it, and then everybody 16 turns around and says, oh, by the way why did you do this? 17 Like as if it was some kind of a secret. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Just on that, who do you 19 see as the CEO? 20 THE WITNESS: Mike Garrett's the CEO. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. All right. 22 Thanks. 23 THE WITNESS: It sure wouldn't be Mel Lastman. 24 Okay. Sorry. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: What -- what do you mean

1 by that. 2 THE WITNESS: I won't go into it. I don't 3 think you want me to get into that tirade, no. But, I do 4 have four (4) kids. That was a joke. 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. It went over my 6 head. 7 THE WITNESS: Go ahead. I just wanted to 8 lighten up things. 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. 10 MR. RONALD MANES: All right. The 11 Philadelphia denial had nothing -- 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Oh, I get it now. Sorry. 13 MR. RONALD MANES: All right. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr. Manes. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 17 Q: The Philadelphia denial had nothing to do 18 with -- with any involvement that you had with that staff 19 decision in September to extend the leases from three (3) to 20 five (5) years because you weren't involved in that 21 whatsoever? 22 A: I wasn't involved with it and I was 23 oblivious to the Philadelphia thing being as relevant as it 24 is today. I really was. 25 Q: You weren't involved in the staff decision

1 of July 2000 to rewrite the existing leases and further 2 extend them? 3 A: No, sir. The only knowledge I have is a 4 motion which you've produced to me that was made by Olivia 5 Chow which was a motion that deals with extending leases and 6 looking as if you could save money with it and I have to tell 7 you that when you gave me that, that was a complete surprise 8 to me and it's interesting that nobody in the press seems to 9 want to talk about it. 10 But that's the only thing that I've seen where 11 I would have been at a meeting where anything close to it 12 could have been discussed and I actually don't even remember 13 that motion being made because it was on April the 3rd and it 14 was the closing meeting and I was resigning as Budget Chair 15 at that point. 16 Q: Quite right and just to answer the 17 question, you were not involved in that decision of July 2000 18 to rewrite the leases further? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: So that the -- the Philadelphia denial 21 would have nothing to do with that, as well? 22 A: No, no. It has absolutely nothing to do 23 with -- anything to do with this at all. 24 Q: The -- you -- when you were interviewed by 25 the police told the truth about the -- what you knew about

1 the Lyons DFS affair, we'll call it, and you said you had 2 nothing to do with it. That was true? 3 A: Absolutely true. 4 Q: All right. As far as the Lyons and DFS 5 affair is concerned and Mr. Lyons, personally, is concerned, 6 nothing you said about Philadelphia or the Philadelphia 7 denial had anything whatsoever to do with that? 8 A: I don't quite get that. I -- 9 Q: Now -- 10 A: -- I don't know anything about the Jeff 11 Lyons thing with DFS or whatever. Zero. 12 Q: And therefore your denial -- your 13 Philadelphia denial had nothing to do with something that you 14 didn't know anything about? It had nothing to do -- 15 A: Right. 16 Q: -- with the Lyons -- 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: All right. Now, sir, you never leaked any 19 confidential documents to Mr. Domi or anyone else? 20 A: I have never leaked a confidential 21 document to Mr. Domi or anything related to this matter. I 22 have, in the past in my political life, had disagreements 23 with Council doing things behind closed doors and I have been 24 chastised or argued with about mentioning things that Council 25 was doing behind closed doors to the media, of all people

1 because I disagreed with what Council was doing. 2 And I think I have been quoted in the past as 3 saying that there are too many behind closed door meetings. 4 That there's really no need to have a private meeting at 5 Council unless, you know, it's really to go over specific 6 numbers that are relevant but after that, once you've made a 7 decision it should be made public. 8 Q: You did not leak the Policy -- the July 9 9th, 1999 staff recommendations of Policy and Finance 10 Committee? You did not leak the Policy and Finance report? 11 You did not leak any Policy and Finance appendices? You did 12 not leak any draft of vehicle -- or fleet vehicle lease RFQ 13 or RFP? 14 A: Not that I'm aware of, no. 15 Q: All right. You leaked nothing in relation 16 to anything having to do with -- with this Inquiry. 17 A: I -- I have -- no, I can't think of 18 anything that I would have given to anybody for any reason. 19 Q: All right. Now, just -- I just want to 20 clear up something. It's -- if I just might have a moment. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Nothing -- in terms of -- of the 25 Philadelphia denial, that had nothing to do with any

1 allegations of leaking confidential information, et cetera, 2 correct? 3 A: Correct. I -- well, I -- I never leaked 4 any documents. 5 Q: So, it could -- 6 A: I'm not even aware that I had some of 7 them, so. 8 Q: All right. You, sir, as I understand what 9 your evidence was yesterday, had nothing to do whatsoever 10 with the -- the lease costs more than doubling what the 11 Policy and Finance recommended and Council authorized? 12 A: I believe, Mr. Manes, in answer to your 13 question I have said, and I've tried to make it absolutely 14 clear that I do not believe that the amendment that the 15 Committee made, which I participated in, I do not believe 16 that the amendment that the Committee made specifically said, 17 or could be interpreted as, only saying that you could extend 18 the lease from three (3) to five (5) years. 19 With respect to the main issue that you're 20 looking at here, which is, how does the cost of something go 21 from 43 million to 85, or 110 million, or whatever, without 22 Council knowledge or approval? 23 There is absolutely nothing in that motion 24 that could even be widely, or in any way, shape, or form, 25 interpreted as saying, oh yes, you can buy additional

1 equipment; or, oh yes, there'll be a penalty clause; or, oh 2 yes, the lease interest rates are going to change, et cetera, 3 et cetera. 4 Like there's, as I understand it, and I don't 5 have all the facts in front of be, but as I understand it, 6 there's a whole bunch of different things that happened that 7 added to the cost, of which only one issue is the extension 8 of the lease from three (3) to five (5) years. 9 And even on that issue, I'm suggesting to you 10 that that was not the only way to satisfy the amendment. The 11 amendment was clearly an amendment to a three (3) year lease. 12 Q: You made that clear yesterday, and yet 13 again, today, you had nothing to do with those lease costs 14 escalating from, whether it was 43 -- from 43 million, 15 whether it was to 85 million, or 110 million, you had nothing 16 to do with -- with that? 17 A: I agree with you. 18 Q: They -- the Philadelphia denial therefore 19 was not related to that issue whatsoever? 20 A: No. 21 Q: In all this, my question, Mr. Jakobek, is: 22 If the truth is that your involvement, or lack of it, in any 23 of these events that I've just enumerated had nothing to do 24 with the Philadelphia denial, we are left with a riddle, and 25 that riddle is this: Would Tom Jakobek lie to the press for

1 no reason? 2 And what I'm asking you is, and giving you 3 this last opportunity to explain in public under oath, why 4 the Philadelphia denial? 5 A: Okay. I -- I would like to answer the 6 question on the basis that I do not want it taken as an 7 excuse, or an attempt at justification because I want to make 8 it absolutely clear that I have no justification, and I was 9 wrong for having said what I said. 10 And I want to preface that because I don't 11 want you to interpret what I say, in answer to your question, 12 somehow that I'm trying to escape the reality of the, you 13 know, responsibility I must take. I -- just want to make 14 that absolutely clear, right. 15 So, there's no logic that, in my opinion is 16 acceptable, but having said that, I told you that when this 17 was first shot at me, there was a number of flights, which we 18 no did not exist; there were a number of expenses, which we 19 know did not happen. 20 All of which was being thrown at me, at a 21 moment in time when I should have simply said, I have no 22 comment, but didn't say, no comment. Where I was the one 23 returning the call, where I was the one who was not aware, 24 and who was taken, somewhat, off guard. 25 And at that particular juncture, I made a

1 crucial error in saying, no, I'm denying it, I'm denying it, 2 I'm denying it. And one of the reasons why, at that moment, 3 I was thinking that way would have been because of the fact 4 that, since September or whatever, I had all these 5 accusations, my name being mentioned I don't know how many 6 times here, and broadcasted how many millions of times in the 7 press. 8 That I had resisted trying to make any comment 9 at all to the press because quite frankly, it's more 10 appropriate for me to make my comments here, than it is for 11 me to make my comments here than it is for me to make them in 12 the press and that, you know, I -- there was no way out for 13 me, in my opinion at the time, politically. You know? 14 I say, yes, I am on a plane and that's going 15 to be broadcast for the next six (6) to eight (8) months 16 until I finally get in here and tell you why and then I end 17 giving evidence and I end up trying to explain myself in the 18 press as opposed to doing it here. 19 So that's why I think it happened but I don't, 20 under any circumstances, believe that that's a justification 21 for my actions. I don't accept it as a justification for my 22 actions. I regret deeply what I did and what I said and Mr. 23 Manes, I -- I hope that tries to solve the riddle but at -- 24 at the end of the day, Mr. Manes, when you do something 25 that's illogical or incorrect, I don't know if it really

1 solves the riddle. 2 Q: Mr. Jakobek, you'd been a politician, at 3 that point, for seventeen (17) some years. You're very 4 bright and a gifted politician; a very bright, gifted man and 5 in many stressful situations have -- have had to make many 6 political judgments and you made what you say is a political 7 judgment that there was no way out politically and so you 8 say, no, I'm going to deny it. I'm going to deny it. 9 My question to you was: what is it in that 10 trip to Philadelphia that caused you to make that snap 11 political judgment that you had to deny it. What was 12 implicitly bad or wrong about that trip that made you want to 13 hide it? 14 A: Nothing. The reality, Mr. Manes, is it 15 started and again, I'm going to say this, I'm not trying to 16 justify the action but you actually started the ball rolling 17 when you said to Mel Lastman on the first day of this 18 Inquiry, as I understand it, that I was frequently 19 entertained. 20 And the accusations and the comments and the 21 so-called Jakobek relationship and involvement in all this 22 went on throughout the entire time. Even to the point where 23 all of a sudden I've got the police interviewing me. 24 So I -- I just say to you, that is what was on 25 my mind, Mr. Manes, as incorrect as it may have been. That

28
  1  -- that is what was on my mind, not anything about regrets
  2  for having gone when I did.  I have no regrets for going on
  3  that -- well, sure I -- I wish I wasn't on that trip today
  4  but the reality was, at the time, this was something I'd done
  5  many times with Harold Perry.  
  6                 The fact that there was somebody else there
  7  with other people who I'd been places with and who I am,
  8  quote 'friends with' just didn't ring a bell.  
  9                 This wasn't like me getting on a corporate jet
 10  and there's all these MFP people and just myself.  This was
 11  me getting on a jet with Harold Perry who I've been on many
 12  trips with, with Jim Ginou who I'd been on trips, with Vince
 13  Nigro who I haven't been on trips with but I am friends with
 14  and Harold's son who I helped water ski or whatever and --
 15  and this guy Dash Domi.  That's the context in which it was. 
 16  So I just hope that clarifies the riddle for you, Mr. Manes.
 17  
 18                       (BRIEF PAUSE)
 19  
 20                 Q:  Well, the puzzlement I have is as to what
 21  was wrong with this trip as compared to any trip that you've
 22  been on with Mr. Perry?  For example, Mr. Perry says in his 
 23  -- in his affidavit, that he's been on several trips with you
 24  on private -- private planes, private jets, trip to -- two
 25  (2) fishing trips to Newfoundland.

1 Was there anything wrong with you going with 2 Mr. Perry on two (2) fishing trips to Newfoundland? 3 A: Mr. Manes, see, what was wrong with this 4 trip is that I wouldn't have gone on it had Mr. Domi invited 5 me. I went because my friend invited me. 6 Q: And that's my point. What I am wondering 7 about is why, in your mind, at that time, when you're asked 8 by reporters, were you on that trip? Why would you deny a 9 trip that was perfectly benign in your mind? 10 MR. ALAN GOLD: Your Honour, the witness has 11 explained that the denial was based upon the public 12 perception which had been created about the trip, including 13 Mr. Manes' comments in which he was quoted about frequently 14 entertained, which we now know not to be true. 15 The witness has made it clear. It was the 16 public perception of the trip that caused him to deny it. 17 Mr. Manes keeps talking about the reality of the trip. The 18 witness has answered the questions. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes. 20 MR. RONALD MANES: That answer that My Friend, 21 Mr. Gold, gave was Mr. Gold's answer. That answer was not 22 the witness' answer. 23 THE WITNESS: I -- I really don't want to see 24 an argument. I -- I agree with what Mr. Gold said, I would 25 put it in my own words, if that's permissible to say what Mr.

1 Gold said. 2 I thought I was communicating it in that 3 manner. And Mr. Manes, again, I will -- 4 MR. RONALD MANES: All right. 5 THE WITNESS: -- say to you. I'm not trying 6 to justify it. You're trying to understand why a person does 7 what they do. 8 I can only say to you that in my twenty (20) 9 years in public life, and as you pointed out, in many battles 10 and many wars and many things, I've never been in this 11 position before. 12 So, you know, it's fine to say that you're an 13 expert and you've been there twenty (20) years, but the 14 reality is, when something hits you that you're not used to, 15 that you didn't expect, you're a human being, you have 16 emotions. 17 Sometimes your emotions act more than you're 18 able to deal with at the time, and I'm very regretful for 19 that. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 22 Q: So, at the time when you spoke with the 23 reporters, you, in your mind and in your heart, knew that 24 there was -- or believed that there was absolutely nothing 25 wrong with that flight to Philadelphia?

31
  1                 I'm not talking about the public perception,
  2  I'm talking about what you knew, sir, to be the truth. 
  3                 A:  Right.  That's correct, Mr. Manes. 
  4                 Q:  And so, you say that that is not what you
  5  responded to, what you responded to was the public perception
  6  that something in that trip, and that is Mr. Domi, may be bad
  7  and that caused you to deny it?
  8                 A:  No, I think what -- I think what I was
  9  attempting to say, was that I was being bombarded with
 10  perceptions, non-realities, and no matter what I did, yes or
 11  no, I was going to -- I was going to take my beating in the
 12  press. 
 13                 So, I -- I must have made a critical -- at
 14  that critical moment, I must have made a decision, which I
 15  have said is the wrong decision, and as a result I ended up
 16  getting beat up more than I probably would have gotten beat
 17  up had I just said, you know what, yeah, I was there, and I
 18  was there because. 
 19                 Q:  You knew the truth, but responded to the
 20  perceptions that were created; is that what you're saying?
 21                 A:  Perception is reality, Mr. Manes. 
 22                 Q:  I see. 
 23                 A:  To me, I was being beaten up, so I really
 24  couldn't add any more to it, sir. 
 25                 Q:  And then you say that, notwithstanding,

1 that you -- you knew the truth, that there was nothing wrong 2 with that flight, in your -- in your mind, that you continued 3 to maintain that you weren't on it to the media because of 4 those perceptions? 5 A: You'll have to ask me that again. I ... 6 Q: It must be, Mr. Jakobek, that the reason 7 that you continued to maintain the position that you knew not 8 to be true, that you were not on the flight, was that you 9 continued to respond to the perceptions in the public, 10 correct? 11 A: I'll agree with you that once I made -- 12 once I said what I said, which was not correct, it became 13 increasingly difficult by every moment for me to change 14 direction with the press. 15 Q: You knew the truth, and you continued to 16 respond to the public perceptions, however, and maintain that 17 you were not on the flight? 18 A: I -- I have -- I have said, on no 19 uncertain terms, that I said what I said to the reporters 20 afterwards, and I regret having said it. 21 Q: Is the answer to my question, yes, you 22 knew the truth, but you continued to respond to the public 23 perception -- 24 A: Obviously, Mr. Manes. 25 Q: All right.

33
  1                       (BRIEF PAUSE)
  2  
  3  
  4                 A:  Thanks.
  5                 Q:  And you continued to respond to those
  6  public perceptions knowing the truth was to the contrary
  7  right up to, at least I suggest to you, this letter from your
  8  lawyer to the Toronto Star dated January 27th, 2003?
  9                 A:  Correct.
 10                 Q:  And on that date, we'll get this letter
 11  according to this, you were standing by your statement that
 12  you did not attend the trip and that you were in the position
 13  to know?
 14                 A:  Correct.
 15                 Q:  Wouldn't the simple response to what was
 16  created in the public perception, assuming there was nothing
 17  wrong with you taking a trip with your friend, Harold
 18  Peerenboom, the simple response to tell the truth?  What you
 19  know to be the truth rather than maintaining a lie?
 20                 A:  Mr. Manes, I -- I wish I had tomorrow's
 21  paper today.  I -- I would have done things much differently.
 22                 Q:  Or you mean today's paper tomorrow?
 23                 A:  No.
 24                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:  No.
 25                 MR. RONALD MANES:  Oh.

1 THE WITNESS: I actually got it right. 2 MR. RONALD MANES: Tomorrow's paper today. 3 You're quite right. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Got it right today. 5 MR. RONALD MANES: Yeah. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 8 Q: Well, we had your statement on that, we'll 9 have a look at this -- at this letter. Mr. Domi -- mis -- 10 I'd like -- Mr. Jakobek, I'd like to speak with you about 11 your relationships with Mr. Domi, Mr. Nigro, Mr. Lyons, Mr. 12 Godfrey and Mr. Garrett. Mr. Domi, in his evidence, 13 characterized your relationship with him as cordial. 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: All right. Now, at certain points and 16 certain things that he had -- had a hand in writing, he 17 characterized it as a strong relationship. I take it you 18 would disagree that it was a strong relationship? 19 A: If I take the definition of strong 20 relationship as meaning something other than a cordial 21 relationship, the answer is I disagree with that, yes. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: I think it's an exaggeration. 24 Q: Now -- yes. Now, there were over two 25 hundred and thirty-five (235) telephone calls back and forth.

1 Now, I'm not suggesting that some of them aren't simply 2 messages or simply a call made but there was that kind of 3 activity between you and Mr. Domi. Did you ever say to Mr. 4 Domi, quit bothering me? 5 A: Mr. Manes, you have the phone records and 6 you know that there's these two hundred (200) phone messages 7 or whatever by Mr. Domi. You know that the vast majority of 8 them are under a minute. You know that I didn't even check 9 my own voice mail. At the time, I wouldn't have been aware 10 of all these calls. He could have called me, he could have 11 hung up when he got the voice mail. 12 Q: I'm sorry. You're saying that I know 13 that? How would I know that? That you didn't check your 14 voice mail messages. Don't -- 15 A: Oh, okay. I'm not -- 16 Q: All right. 17 A: I shouldn't assume anything we've 18 discussed, okay. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: He said -- he testified 20 about it yesterday. 21 MR. RONALD MANES: Oh. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. In any event, what I'm 23 saying to you is until you get -- until I heard from this 24 Inquiry that there were two hundred (200) phone calls to me, 25 I could not have guessed that the man had called me that many

1 times because I certainly did not receive two hundred (200) 2 phone calls and I believe the phone records indicate that the 3 amount of times that I returned the call over a four (4) year 4 period. I'm not sure of the exact number, Mr. Manes, you 5 have it but it's somewhere in the neighbourhood of eleven 6 (11) or twelve (12) or fourteen (14) or fifteen (15) over 7 four (4) years. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 10 Q: Nineteen (19). 11 A: Nineteen (19) over four (4) years, some of 12 which were trying to return the call twice or whatever. So, 13 I -- I really don't believe I established a relationship 14 where that the phone calls suggest there is an established 15 relationship. I don't. 16 Q: Actually, and just for our record, you're 17 returning telephone calls to Mr. Domi from May 2nd, 1999 to 18 August 7th, 2002. So, that's about three (3) and a third 19 months -- three (3) and a third years. 20 There were, as I say, I think I said nineteen 21 (19) telephone calls. That's -- 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: -- what your saying? All right. 24 A: And to answer your other question, you 25 know, I have been asked that question by my wife, and by

1 other people who worked in my office, not about Mr. Domi, but 2 about a number of people in political life that you meet, who 3 all of a sudden decide they're going to call you on a daily 4 basis. 5 And I -- I can think of some people, I could 6 name them right now, and people who know me would say, oh 7 yeah. And some of them have absolutely nothing to do, they 8 just -- they call you. And -- and, you know, my recollection 9 of the conversations I had with Mr. Domi, were all mixed 10 political conversations. 11 I -- I can -- I don't know that remember him 12 actually saying, well, look it, I want to lobby you about 13 this or whatever. 14 I -- this man would sit in every Council 15 meeting, every committee meeting. He was up talking to just 16 about every Councillor. He was calling people. He was at 17 almost every social event. 18 I mean, there's a circuit of social events, 19 whether it's the Mistletoe Ball, or whether it's the Caribana 20 Ball, or whatever. 21 And all of a sudden, you know, in the Toronto 22 social scene, this guy appeared at every single event, and 23 would come up to you and start talking to you at every single 24 event as if he knew you. 25 So, that's my answer to you, sir.

1 Q: All right. I'm just trying to gather more 2 of a focussed answer from that. Did you ever feel like 3 telling him to quit -- quit calling you all the time? 4 A: Yes, there was one occasion where he 5 called my house and he spoke to my -- my daughter, Nicole, 6 for, I don't know how long he was speaking to her on the 7 phone, but it put me off, and I asked him not to call my 8 house. 9 And -- and I think, after that, I attempted to 10 be somewhat terse, or short, or, you know, what do you want, 11 thank you very much, look, I really am busy now, I have to 12 go. That -- that sort of a conversation. 13 Q: If you can recall, when -- when was that 14 call to -- to your house? 15 A: I can't -- I can't tell you the exact 16 date. I'd have to sit there, and I could maybe give you an 17 approximation, but it's probably somewhere -- somewhere in 18 that year 2000. 19 He called me after I was gone from City 20 Council, so. 21 Q: But for all his bother and persistent 22 telephone calling, short, long, or otherwise, and -- the fact 23 that you sought, I take it, to at least maintain some kind of 24 cordial relationship with him -- 25 A: Well, sir, I'm not a lawyer. And he --

1 and, you know, if I'm an everyday person and I don't -- and I 2 don't have to care what this person thinks, I can tell the 3 person to go jump in a lake. 4 I'm in politics, right. And when you're in 5 politics you can afford, you cannot tell anybody; whether 6 it's the person lying on the street, or otherwise, you cannot 7 tell them to go jump in a lake because the next thing that 8 happens is the person tells everybody that you're rude, 9 obnoxious person, and that you told, you know, you don't take 10 phone calls or you treat people that way. 11 Certainly not somebody who's on the social 12 scene, somebody who's talking to everybody, and who's there 13 all the time. 14 So, I -- I mean, I agree with you that, you 15 know, there are many times in my life I've wanted to tell 16 people to go jump in the lake, but I don't, I resisted doing 17 that. 18 Q: Well, I -- I might say, from the articles 19 that I've read and from your reputation, Mr. Jakobek, you're 20 not above being rude to people? 21 A: I'm -- I'm blunt, sir. I'm not rude, you 22 know, I don't -- I don't agree with that, you know, it's -- I 23 don't think I'm a rude person. 24 Q: Well, you say that in politics you can't 25 afford to offend people?

40
  1                 A:  No, I'm --
  2                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:  Can't afford to tell them
  3  to go jump in a lake?
  4                 THE WITNESS:  Right.  Yeah. 
  5  
  6  CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES:
  7                 Q:  Can't afford to tell them to go jump in
  8  the lake?
  9                 A:  Yeah. 
 10                 Q:  But you don't, I might say, in relation to
 11  Mr. Domi, you're quite right, you didn't tell him to go jump
 12  in the lake, but you did take him golfing in September of
 13  1999 --
 14                 A:  Yes.
 15                 Q:  -- at -- at a private country club?
 16                 A:  Do you want me to explain that?
 17                 Q:  I'll get to that.
 18                 A:  Okay.
 19                 Q:  But I'm right in that?
 20                 A:  No, but you see, I didn't -- I didn't have
 21  as much, you know, as I've said to you with these phone calls
 22  or whatever and with the evidence in terms of the times I
 23  returned his call.  You know, for me to return a person's
 24  call nineteen (19) times over four (4) years isn't -- isn't
 25  what I would call a major problem to me.

1 Q: Well -- 2 A: I have other people I can tell you I've 3 returned far many more calls than Mr. Domi by a mile. 4 Q: Well, we will come to it but you don't 5 take all those people out golfing at a private country club? 6 A: I've taken people golfing. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: Absolutely. 9 Q: We'll come back -- we'll come to that -- 10 that September 2nd, 1999. May 31st, 1999. If you'll go to 11 your Volume 2 and this will be Tab 3. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Here I've got on May 31st Call 358, you 16 see that? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: 16:34. This is actually a call that you 19 made to Mr. Domi. 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: Now, that May 31st, it may or may not be a 22 coincidence, sir, but that May 31st is -- is the date that 23 the RFQ was released. 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: If you just go to -- go to your -- go to

1 Mr. Domi's cell phone records at Tab 4. You see entries 24 2 and 25. 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Now, there's -- Mr. Domi is calling you. 5 A: Right. 6 Q: First at 2:26 -- or 9:26 a.m. 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: Forty-eight (48) seconds. Also, May 31st, 9 16:41 which would be 4:41. 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: A minute and ten (10) seconds. So that's 12 -- you know, that call -- those calls back and forth, three 13 (3) calls, do you have on May 31st, the date the RFQ is -- is 14 released, do you have any recollection of what those 15 telephone calls were about, generally, but in particular 16 whether they related or just coincidental to the fact that 17 the RFQ in this -- City of Toronto leasing RFQ was released 18 that day? 19 A: Well, Mr. Manes, it looks to me like at 20 9:36 -- 9:26 in the morning, he calls and leaves a message at 21 my office. At 4:34, as I'm leaving my office, obviously, I'm 22 trying to do calls while I'm leaving, I returned his call and 23 then at 4:41, which is obviously I'd left him a message and 24 then he finally gets the message, he calls me back and that's 25 -- you know, that's where I see those three (3) calls.

1 A person calls, leaves a message. I finally 2 call them back in the afternoon and then leave a message that 3 I'd returned their call and then they'd call me back -- and 4 -- but I don't have any knowledge of what he was calling me 5 about. Most of the time when he called me, he would call me 6 to tell me that he thought I'd done a great job arguing about 7 something in Council or that so and so had said this and, you 8 know, was I going to this event or whatever. That -- that 9 was most of the conversations I had. 10 I do recall him -- coming out of a committee 11 meeting, I recall him telling me that they were going to win 12 the bid. That they were -- they were going to win it. They 13 were the best or something of that nature and I -- and I 14 said, good luck to you. I remember that, that's about the 15 only one I remember. 16 Q: I'm talking May 31st, 1999. And whether 17 you, sir, have any specific recollection of these telephone 18 -- three (3) telephone contacts back and forth? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Do you have any specific memory of this? 21 A: No. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: No, not a specific. 24 Q: So, what you've given us is your analysis 25 of what could have happened?

1 A: No, I gave you an analysis of what is 2 obvious happened, which is that the man called and left a 3 message because it's forty-eight (48) seconds, and then I 4 returned the call, and then obviously I returned the call and 5 left a message because he called right back. 6 And I -- and it looks to me like I would have 7 spoken to him, although it could have been another message 8 that I missed. 9 And with the greatest of respect, sir, I, you 10 know, I'm -- I'm looking at his calls to me. I'd sure like 11 to know how many people he called on May the 31st, if that 12 was a significant date. 13 Maybe he was calling everybody to tell them 14 that, you know, I don't know, but I don't have any other 15 recollection than when you -- you're -- I mean, you're giving 16 me a date and telling me the significance of it. 17 I'm telling you that I do recall him once 18 telling me about how successful they were going to be. 19 Q: Call number 25, Tab 4, May 31st, 1999 at 20 16:41, a telephone call to you for a minute and ten (10) 21 seconds. 22 Now, it is possible; isn't it, that in that 23 minute and ten (10) seconds you had an actual conversation 24 rather than exchange of voice mails? 25 A: Yeah, if it's over a minute, it's -- it's

1 possible. I think it takes like, thirty-five (35) to 2 forty-two (42) seconds in order to leave a voice mail, if 3 you're lucky. 4 Q: And if you go back to Tab number 3, your 5 Tab, and call number 358 at 16:34, that's you calling Mr. 6 Domi, that's a minute? 7 A: It's a minute or less. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: A minute or less, Mr. Manes. 10 Q: And who knows, it may have been a -- 11 A: It depends on the time when they bill you. 12 Q: It may have been a conversation, it may 13 not have been? 14 A: I don't believe it was. 15 Q: You have no specific recollection though, 16 one way or the other? 17 A: No, but I don't believe it was. 18 Q: Let's stay with Mr. Domi's cell phone 19 records and let me take you to June 11th, 1999. 20 A: June 11th, where is that, sir? 21 Q: That'll be starting at number 37, 37 and 22 38. Tab 4. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: Number 37 and 38. June 11th, 1999 at 2:11 25 p.m., or 14:11. A call to you, sir, for forty-nine (49)

1 seconds, and then at 15:36, or 3:36 in the afternoon, June 2 11th, a call to you for fifty-one (51) seconds. 3 Now, June 11th happens to be the date that, 4 coincidently or not, the date that the RF -- the proposed -- 5 the responses to the RFQ's had to be filed. 6 Do you recall whether those two (2) phone 7 calls had anything to do with that -- with that fact? 8 A: Mr. Manes, I'll clarify to say, this man 9 called me four (4) times, according to these records, he 10 called four (4) times on June the 10th, he called twice on 11 June the 11th, he called four (4) times on June the 14th, and 12 in every single case his telephone call was forty-five (45) 13 or fifty-one (51) seconds or less, which means he was leaving 14 messages for me. 15 And I don't recall getting any of those 16 messages. If he didn't leave a name, and or a phone number 17 on the message, or if he just said, I'm just calling can you 18 give me a ring; the chances are my staff didn't even give it 19 to me. 20 So, I don't have any recollection of it. And 21 the records indicate to me that this person didn't just call 22 me on that specific important date, he was calling me the day 23 before, the day of, the day after, in fact, three days after, 24 leaving all these messages, which was typical apparently of 25 what he was doing.

1 Q: All right. We'll go into those, but just 2 taking -- 3 MR. ALAN GOLD: Your Honour, sorry. Could I 4 just ask -- 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes. 6 MR. ALAN GOLD: -- a clarification? 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, please. 8 MR. ALAN GOLD: I haven't been here all along, 9 but I take it regarding calls, for example, regarding May 10 31st, the call -- the column call -- call number, where it 11 says, 790, and then below it, 851. 12 I take it that means there are sixty other 13 calls in between those two (2) calls to other people. Am I 14 reading that correctly? 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: What these are, as I 16 understand it, are just the ones that Mr. Domi made to Mr. 17 Jakobek. We do have all Mr. Domi's calls. 18 MR. ALAN GOLD: No, right, no, I appreciate 19 that, but I can take it that by subtracting -- we see there 20 were sixty (60) other calls to other people between those two 21 (2) calls, I just want to know if I'm reading that call 22 correctly. 23 You see May 31st, call number 24 is seven 24 ninety (790), call 25 is eight fifty-one (851). So, am I 25 reading it correctly that there's sixty (60) calls?

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Groskaufmanis, can 2 you help us? 3 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: I think I can. That 4 would mean there are sixty (60) other -- sixty (60) other 5 entries, but not all of them are necessarily telephone calls. 6 So, for example -- 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right. 8 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: -- he's -- 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: He's checking his voice 10 mail. 11 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: -- voice mail. 12 MR. ALAN GOLD: Oh, I see. 13 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: That counts as a 14 call, or something like that, but -- 15 MR. ALAN GOLD: So, there's sixty (60) other 16 phone uses. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right. 18 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: That's right, right. 19 MR. ALAN GOLD: Okay, thank you very much. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 22 Q: So, we have six (6) telephone contacts of 23 some kind with your number? 24 A: Not necessarily, sir. 25 Q: Excuse me --

1 A: If you call a person's number, and you get 2 their voice mail and you decide to hang up, it still 3 registers, regardless of whether you talked to anybody or 4 left a message. 5 Q: I said some kind. 6 A: And every one (1) of these indicate to me 7 that that's what it was because they're just too short to 8 have been a conversation. 9 Q: Well, I'm not suggesting there's a 10 conversation, I just simply put my question as some telephone 11 contact of some kind with your phone, and two (2), three (3), 12 four (4), five (6), six (6) times, June the 10th through June 13 the 11th, June the 11th being the date of the -- of the -- 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Responses to the RFQ. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 17 Q: Filing of the -- filing of the responses 18 to the -- to the RFQ. That's the only point I'm making, is 19 that would be right? 20 A: I -- I believe so. 21 Q: All right. And you don't have any 22 recollection of speaking with Mr. Domi in that period of 23 time, regarding MFP's response? 24 A: No, absolutely not. 25 Q: Right.

1 A: And I -- no, it's not a matter of not a 2 recollection, I know for a fact that I did not speak to him 3 about anything to do with his RFQ or whatever, other than 4 that moment where I remember vividly, him telling me about 5 how successful they were going to be. And I remember -- 6 actually remember, I was -- I was coming out of a Committee 7 meeting, I think it was the -- I think it was the 8 Administration Committee, I was a member of the Committee -- 9 the meeting was still going on and I was coming out and kind 10 of walked or chased along behind me as I was trying to go to 11 my office. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: What did you think when 13 he said that? 14 THE WITNESS: Well, the -- you know, you don't 15 want to make sort of general statements, but they were kind 16 of arrogant about themselves, you know. They had the 17 Province of Ontario, they had other Municipalities, this is 18 the way of the future, we're the best, nobody can beat our 19 price. That was my recollection of it. 20 More so than -- than -- than most companies 21 you would -- you would talk to, would say, you know, we're 22 trying or we're doing this. And I don't mean it in a 23 derogatory sense against the company, I mean they were just 24 very bold. 25 They were very, you know, that was my feeling

1 from what I can remember from Ms. Payne and -- and certainly 2 Mr. Domi seemed very inexperienced and not your typical sort 3 of lobbyist. He was -- he was more of a -- I don't know how 4 I would describe that guy. I -- I would -- I would -- you 5 know the -- I don't think he had a deep rooted knowledge of 6 the topic that he was lobbying for. 7 I -- I -- I know -- I asked him at one (1) 8 point, and Mr. Manes will get to it, about this golf game 9 thing. I remember asking him something about, you know, how 10 is it that you can provide money cheaper than me going out 11 and borrowing it, when I'm a big city and I should be doing 12 $50 million debentures? And he didn't have a clue, but he 13 did not have a clue, which is strange to me. 14 Sorry, Mr. Manes, I went on a -- 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I asked. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 18 Q: And the Commissioner asked, and I just 19 want to pick up on what you just -- what you just said. The 20 fact of discussions you had as to how they can -- how MFP 21 could borrow money cheaper than the City could borrow money, 22 that discussion was while you were playing golf? 23 A: Yes, that's right. 24 Q: All right, and we'll come to that as well. 25 I'm just storing all that for -- for the -- for the nine (9)

1 holes we'll play together until lunch. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And, Mr. -- 3 MR. RONALD MANES: Now -- 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- just so you know, Mr. 5 Jakobek, if at any time you feel you need -- you want a break 6 before our normal break time -- 7 THE WITNESS: No, no, no, I'm fine. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- just let me know. 9 Okay. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm fine, thank you. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I've said this to others, 12 so don't feel like I'm singling -- 13 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I know. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- you out. All right. 15 MR. RONALD MANES: There's another period, Mr. 16 Jakobek, I'd like to take you to. June 22nd to July 19th, 17 and this is again Mr. Domi's, so just track down from June 18 22nd -- 19 THE WITNESS: What number is this, sir? 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Tab 4? 21 MR. RONALD MANES: That'll be Tab 4. We'll 22 remain in there. 23 THE WITNESS: Page number? 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES:

1 Q: And go to second page, and it starts at -- 2 on top, so you see 43 to 53? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: There -- I think it's eleven (11) entries. 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: And eleven (11) telephone contacts of some 7 kind, between June 22nd and July 19th; is that right? 8 A: Yeah, that's what it says, yes. 9 Q: All right. Now, June 22nd, now there's 10 one (1), entry number 43. That's actually two (2) minutes 11 and thirty-one (31) seconds. 12 Now, do you recall speaking with Mr. Domi -- 13 A: This is June -- June 22nd, is the -- is 14 the day of -- is that the day of the actual meeting? 15 Q: The day of the -- 16 A: Policy and Finance Meeting? 17 Q: No, no, that's in July, that's in July. 18 A: Oh, that's in July. 19 Q: We're coming to that. 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: This -- this is just as it says, June 22 22nd. 23 A: Well, it's just that it's -- it's at 1:45. 24 I would find it highly unlikely that I would be sitting in my 25 office taking a phone call at 1:45, that's all.

1 Q: So, if this was a -- obviously a telephone 2 contact of some -- of some length took place, you're saying 3 it was more likely a voice mail, and that -- 4 A: Well, I -- 5 Q: -- Mr. Domi just remained on the line for 6 two (2) minutes and thirty-one seconds (31)? 7 A: I -- I used to pride myself in customer 8 service, you know, that we -- we have a reputation in our 9 office for looking after people. But the reality -- the 10 reality is that you know, we alternated lunches, and no one 11 -- no one was allowed to go out -- we weren't allowed to all 12 go out for lunch at the same time. 13 So there's three (3) staff people, plus one 14 (1) additional person. So, probably two (2) people would be 15 out between 12:00 and 1:00 and two (2) people would be out 16 between 1:00 and 2:00 or whatever. I never cared when they 17 went, as long as there was always someone minding the store, 18 so to speak. 19 And, so, to wait on the phone or to hold on 20 the phone for two (2) minutes, well if you called any 21 Government agency, you know that's not an unusual period of 22 time, and I guess what I'm saying to you is, if you think 23 that was a two (2) minute and thirty-one (31) second 24 conversation with me, I don't believe so. 25 Q: On that -- I'm just asking you whether you

1 have any recollection of what it was? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Right, now there's eleven (11) telephone 4 contacts here, varying lengths, there's two thirty-one 5 (2:31), there's one (1) for twenty-three (23) seconds, and 6 another one (1) for two (2) minutes and thirteen (13) 7 seconds. That's July the 16th, '99. 8 Do you recall any reason or any contact with 9 Mr. Domi during that particular period. And that, sir, just 10 so you know where I'm going -- 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: -- that leads up to the Policy and Finance 13 Committee Meeting on July the 20th, the last call here that 14 we have listed is July the 19th at 5:04 of the day before 15 that meeting? 16 A: No, I -- I really don't, I really don't 17 remember him ever calling me to talk to me about that 18 Committee meeting or anything else. 19 I do know that when I came out of that 20 Committee meeting that day, he was quite emotional and -- and 21 was chasing me, wanted to speak to me and I said I couldn't, 22 and I was -- I was on my way, I was -- I was -- I had to 23 leave that day, so you know -- 24 Q: Did you speak to Ms. Liczyk and Mr. 25 Brittain after that Committee meeting that day?

1 A: No. 2 Q: And you say that -- that Mr. Domi was -- 3 was -- where was he at? 4 A: I believe he was there that day, and he -- 5 Q: At the Committee meeting? 6 A: -- he came chasing me afterwards. 7 Q: Other than that -- that contact, if you 8 call it that, you don't -- you don't remember him ever 9 contacting you or trying to contact you in relation to that 10 Committee meeting? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: What do you mean when you 14 say Mr. Domi was emotional? What -- 15 THE WITNESS: I don't know. He was just -- he 16 was trying -- he was -- he was -- he wanted to speak to me. 17 I've got to speak to you. I have to -- I wanted to speak to 18 you. Can I please speak to you? Or something, like, of that 19 nature. I had to leave. I -- I was literally afoot, 20 running. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 25 Q: Did you ever -- maybe I should ask you the

1 question a different way. Do you know anything about this, 2 what we've been calling, blackout period? 3 A: No. I've heard of blackout periods. I've 4 experienced blackout periods. I think when we were doing the 5 Kirkland Lake garbage thing or whatever, we were sent a 6 letter told, you know, do not speak to anybody. Do not have 7 meetings with anybody. 8 I've always respected that, but on this one, 9 no. I don't -- I do not personally recall having been told, 10 don't talk to anybody who might be bidding and here are the 11 people that are bidding or whatever. 12 Q: I don't think there's any suggestion that 13 you or any other Councillor or anyone else was specifically 14 told not to -- 15 A: Well, because we had nothing to do with 16 it. 17 Q: Does a blackout period -- unless you're 18 told otherwise, does a blackout period which we have had it 19 described as being that a potential bidder should not contact 20 a staff member about the particular bid during a blackout 21 period which is from the time the bid is submitted to the 22 time that the bid is decided. 23 A: I'm not sure what your question to me is. 24 Q: Does that apply to you? Assuming that's 25 right, does that -- does this blackout period apply to a

1 Councillor and a bidder? 2 A: I don't believe so and I -- I actually 3 concur with -- I believe what Bas Balkissoon has said and -- 4 and I agree that given the fact that the politicians are not 5 writing the reports, given the fact that the politicians are 6 not writing the recommendations, given the fact that the 7 politicians are not involved in any committee or discussion 8 about that, then it would be a mistake to put a blackout 9 period on politicians on hearing from people. 10 Because, quite frankly, you learn a lot of 11 information sometimes about people who say, you know what, 12 you -- you put conditions which restrict me from bidding or 13 you put conditions which favour someone else and -- how would 14 you know if they didn't tell you that and so I -- I -- I tend 15 to be sympathetic to what Mr. Balkissoon has said and so that 16 would be my answer to you. 17 Q: All right. Mr. Domi testified on February 18 11th, Page 161 that you, Mr. Jakobek, told him that -- in a 19 post-June 11th telephone call that MFP was the lowest bid. 20 A: I -- I do not recall that whatsoever. 21 Q: All right. That, as far as your 22 recollection is concerned, that never happened? 23 A: I -- I think that's impossible. 24 Q: All right. Let me take you to July 27th, 25 1999. 2 -- Volume II, Number 4.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Is there a concern 2 with -- 3 MR. DAVID MOORE: Well, I just don't -- I'll 4 check. 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 6 MR. DAVID MOORE: I don't have his answer 7 handy but -- 8 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Can we have the page 9 reference again, Commissioner? 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: It's Page 161. I was 11 just getting there myself. Mr. Manes, you said on February 12 the 11th? 13 MR. RONALD MANES: That's my note here. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 15 MR. RONALD MANES: February 11th, Page 161. 16 Now, I can check that, Commissioner, and confirm that after 17 the break. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I don't have it here. 19 MR. RONALD MANES: I may have the wrong -- all 20 right. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 MR. DAVID MOORE: I mean, from my recollection 25 the evidence has been clear from the MFP that MFP was aware,

1 both Mr. Domi and Mr. Pessione and -- I forget who else, that 2 -- we've heard evidence about the bids being read out and I 3 won't refer that in detail, but you know what I'm referring 4 to. 5 MR. RONALD MANES: If that entry is wrong then 6 I'm -- and I'm mistaken, I'm happy to say I'm mistaken. I 7 want to check it out because I -- 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 11 Q: -- I'm going from a memorandum that I've 12 received in terms of the summary of -- of the evidence, so 13 I'll -- I'll check that at the break. 14 Let me take you to July 27th, 1999. 15 A: What page am I on? 16 Q: Again, we're still -- we're at page 2. 17 A: Page 2? 18 Q: Yes. And -- 19 A: So you're looking at number 54 and 55? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Two (2) short -- two (2) short contacts, 22 thirty-nine (39) seconds, thirty-three (33) seconds, one (1) 23 at 11:48 and one (1) at 15:19 or 3:19 in the afternoon. 24 Those -- of course that's on the first day of -- of Council. 25 Do you recall ever speaking to or getting a message from Mr.

1 Domi on the first day of the Council meeting? 2 A: No. No, and you know, again you know, I'm 3 surprised by the number of calls, because that's not my 4 recollection of -- of phone calls from Mr. Domi. 5 I -- as I said to you before you gave me these 6 records, if you'd have asked me I would have said, I don't 7 remember talking to the guy that often at all. 8 But if it's the first day of a Council 9 meeting, the chances of me being in my office at 11:48 are 10 non-existent, because the morning is when everything's 11 happening. 12 And my cell phone doesn't work in the Council 13 Chamber, you've probably heard that from other people, it 14 doesn't and you're not supposed to have them on. So, I'm 15 afraid for those two (2) calls, I have no recollection, and I 16 don't believe I ever got a call from him that we received, or 17 a message. 18 Q: August 26th to September 28th, and that 19 starts -- 20 A: Sorry, I just -- I noticed here too, 21 right, that between 11:48 and 15:19, again from what Mr. Gold 22 pointed out, there was like thirty-five (35) or thirty-six 23 (36) other calls this guy's made. So, I -- maybe he was 24 trying to get everybody, I don't know. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, we have his records

62
  1  and -- and we could take a look at that if you want.
  2  
  3  CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES:
  4                 Q:  The 543-5511, that's a cell number?
  5                 A:  That was my old cell number, yeah.
  6                 Q:  392-7915 -- 
  7                 A:  General office.
  8                 Q:  -- that'd be general office.  So,
  9  according to this, with whatever number of calls that he
 10  made, Mr. Domi called -- made contact of some kind with your
 11  office and -- and called your cell?
 12                 A:  No, it looks like he was calling my office
 13  and calling my cell.  Whether he made contact or not, I doubt
 14  it actually, with thirty-nine (39) seconds or thirty-three
 15  (33) seconds.
 16                 Q:  And is your cell number, is that a private
 17  or public number?
 18                 A:  Mr. Manes, I'm a public person, I -- I
 19  don't think there's anything that I have that's not public. 
 20  So, I -- I know that you -- you had asked in previous or
 21  something like that, about my home number being not listed in
 22  the phone book?
 23                 Q:  Unlisted, yes.
 24                 A:  But I give my home phone number to anybody
 25  and my office gave it to anybody, and it was as accessible as

1 anyone would want. 2 Q: That's funny about that, Mr. Jakobek, 3 because why have an unlisted number if everybody knows about 4 it? 5 A: It's just a preference thing, I prefer 6 people to call me on 8110, because it doesn't ring in my 7 bedroom. 8 Q: Well, I appreciate that, but if everybody 9 has the number, why have it unlisted at all? 10 A: I don't really care -- well, no, it's the 11 premise thing, because you know, sometimes strangers out of 12 the -- out of the world or whatever, just look in the phone 13 book and call you out of the phone book. So, if they do that 14 and it's just a person calling you out of the phone book, I'd 15 prefer they use 8110, that's all. 16 Q: Sort of a traffic control? 17 A: Yeah, yeah, that's all. I mean you don't 18 want to get woken up at 2:00 in the morning, that's all. But 19 I -- I take calls at Christmas Day, I -- I -- I was extremely 20 accessible, anybody could call me at any time. 21 And quite frankly, my number 8110, which was 22 my action centre office, I mean it's got three (3) extensions 23 in my house. Like if I'm in my garage, and you call my 24 action centre, I get the call. It's just not in my bedroom, 25 that's all. And don't go there, okay, bedroom, that is.

1 Q: All right, well, I'd rather go back here 2 to your cell phone. 3 A: Okay, I'm sorry. 4 Q: August 26th through September 28th, there 5 are -- 6 A: Where am I now, 58? 7 Q: Yeah, 58 to 70. 8 A: 58 to 70. 9 Q: There are about thirteen (13) calls or 10 thirteen (13) contacts there? 11 A: 70, okay. And that's -- sorry, that's 12 June -- what -- what dates am I -- 13 Q: August 26th, 1999. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Which number, Mr. -- 15 which row? 16 MR. RONALD MANES: Number 59. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 18 MR. RONALD MANES: Oh, sorry. 58, it starts. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 20 THE WITNESS: Okay, you're starting at 58. 21 MR. RONALD MANES: And I'm going down to 70. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. Going down to 70. Okay, 23 I see it, yeah. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES:

1 Q: Thirteen (13) telephone contacts. And I 2 want you to assume that this is the -- that it's within this 3 period of time that the staff decide that they are going to 4 opt for five (5) year leases, as opposed to three (3) year 5 leases. 6 Assuming that, do you have any recollection 7 of, first of all, of any of these -- any of these -- any 8 telephone contact with Mr. Domi during this time, and if you 9 do, did he ever talk with you about the discussion between 10 MFP and the staff as to whether they should enter into three 11 (3) year leases with MFP or five (5) year leases? 12 A: This is August, right? 13 Q: August. 14 A: of '99? 15 Q: '99. 16 A: Yeah. The only recollection I have of Mr. 17 Domi in August of '99, as well as even July of '99, was 18 his -- a number of his invitations, which went through my 19 executive assistant for charity golf games. 20 I have -- I have a distinct recollection of 21 Mr. Domi inviting me to a number of charity golf games. 22 There was an MFP charity golf game, there was hospital golf 23 games, whatever, of which I declined every one. 24 And that would be the only recollection that I 25 would have. And judging by this myriad of calls, of which

1 these are calls that he made that are nineteen (19) seconds, 2 thirty (30) seconds, thirty-four (34) seconds, or whatever. 3 It would suggest to me that he was attempting 4 to get a hold of me, and perhaps on one (1) occasion did, but 5 in -- in most of these cases -- or left a message, in most of 6 these cases, I believe these were related to his invitations 7 for charity golf tournaments because there were a number of 8 them that he invited me to. 9 Q: Well, September 24th, '99, which is number 10 69, was two (2) minutes and twenty-seven (27) seconds, do you 11 recall whether you spoke with him about these charity golf 12 tournaments, or anything, on that date? 13 A: I could have, I don't recall particularly, 14 but I could have. 15 Q: In any event, is it your evidence that you 16 never had any discussions with Mr. Domi whatsoever regarding 17 MFP discussions with the City, and the City's discussions 18 with MFP, regarding whether the City should enter into three 19 (3) year leases, four (4) year leases, or five (5) -- 20 A: It was totally unaware of it. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: Totally. 23 Q: Well, we're finally at the Toronto Hunt 24 Club, sir, September the 2nd, 1999. And you're going to tell 25 us why it is that you invited your telephone pal Mr. Domi --

1 MR. ALAN GOLD: I -- I -- 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, Mr. -- 3 MR. RONALD MANES: No, I don't mean that -- 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 5 MR. RONALD MANES: Why you -- I'm sorry, I 6 shouldn't have engaged you like that, Mr. Jakobek. 7 MR. ALAN GOLD: I hope he regrets that. 8 MR. RONALD MANES: Oh, I -- I do regret that 9 so much, Mr. Gold. 10 THE WITNESS: Those are things -- 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes, could you just 12 ask your question, please. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 15 Q: September the 2nd, 1999, the -- the golf 16 game that you had at the Toronto Hunt Club with Mr. Domi, Ms. 17 Liczyk, and Mr. Andrew. 18 Can you tell us why it is that, first of all, 19 you had that -- you had all of those people there, and in 20 particular, why it was that Mr. Domi was invited along? 21 A: Mr. Manes, I had received a number of 22 requests from Mr. Domi to attend charity golf tournaments. 23 I -- I don't remember how many, but I remember many requests, 24 and I declined. 25 I really wasn't interested. The only people

1 that I have ever golfed with, and I'm not a good golfer, is 2 personal friends who have absolutely nothing to do with City 3 Hall. 4 And it was either the July or August Council 5 meeting -- no, it was the August Council meeting. And it was 6 the last meeting of Council in August or something. 7 I had a request on a piece of paper, it said, 8 Dash Domi called and wants you to be in his foursome for the 9 Mayor's golf tournament, which was in September. 10 And I saw him there, and I had the note, and I 11 walked over and I said -- no, he walked over to me, and he 12 said, you know, I left you a message, I left you a message, 13 it's really important, I have to know. And I looked at the 14 message, I said I have the message right here, I said, but I 15 -- I can't attend it. 16 And he was irritated, he was irritated and 17 said, you know, you don't -- you haven't accepted any 18 invitations, you're not -- you know, what have you got 19 against me and what have you got -- or what do you have 20 against my company, something to that effect. I remember 21 distinctly, because he was perturbed that I was saying no. 22 And I explained to him, you know, I -- I 23 actually have nothing against you or your company, and he 24 went on about the fact you know, we're -- we're doing 25 business with the City, we're supporting the City, this is a

1 charitable event, you know, I -- I -- you know, I don't 2 understand why you wouldn't meet with us or whatever. 3 And you know, I -- I said to him, look, it's 4 not like I had anything against him or his company, I 5 basically am going with other people. 6 And so, I started to walk out and that didn't 7 seem good enough for him, he was -- he was really perturbed 8 by it. And I said, look, you know what, I -- I don't have a 9 problem with -- with golfing, you know, you want to golf, we 10 can golf, I don't have a problem with that. But I said, I'll 11 call you and -- and I'll see about it. 12 About a day or so later, Jim Andrew spoke to 13 me and said, oh, are you -- are you going to go golfing with 14 Dash Domi? And I said, ah, I did say I would. And he said, 15 are you going? And I said, Jim, you know what, I've -- I've 16 declined everything, but I'm going to set something up, and I 17 said, maybe you would like to join us, and he said sure. 18 So, I had my staff set it up, and I -- then -- 19 then came the question of where do you go, because you know, 20 generally speaking if you, you know, go golfing or something, 21 it's like it can be a whole day. 22 So, I called my friend, Jim McDaniel, he's an 23 elderly gentleman who has nothing to do with City Hall, I 24 knew he was a member of the Hunt Club, which is about ten 25 (10) blocks from my house, it's an executive nine (9) holes,

1 you can do it in about an hour and a half or two (2) hours, 2 and I asked him if -- I said, I have some people I -- I feel 3 obligated to take golfing, is there anyway that I could 4 arrange it? He said, yeah and so I had my staff set it up. 5 I can't remember when, but at some point Jim 6 McDaniel called me and said that his shoulder wasn't very 7 good, that he would come with us, he had to, because he was 8 the member, but he wasn't going to be able to golf. I said, 9 get another person to come. 10 And I felt bad, because this is an eighty (80) 11 year old man, who isn't going to be able to golf, and all 12 he's going to do is tootle around with us. 13 So, I told Jim Andrew that the -- we didn't 14 have a foursome, if he -- if he wanted to get someone else, 15 he suggested Wanda Liczyk, I said, fine. And I don't know if 16 my office called her or if his office called, but she was 17 invited to come, which I thought was appropriate. 18 These were staff people, this is a person 19 doing business with the City, and we had a golf game, I 20 actually rode with Jim McDaniel the entire time. I had that 21 one (1) conversation with Mr. Domi, where I asked him about 22 -- and he didn't know, about the interest versus, you know, 23 borrowing whatever. 24 And after the game, when I was going, Jim 25 Andrew offered to give me a ride home, because I -- I hadn't

1 brought a car. And Dash Domi wanted to go to a -- a bar or 2 restaurant, he wanted to get something to eat or whatever, 3 and I said, no, we -- we have to leave, because Jim 4 McDaniel's the member, I don't want to ask him to stay, you 5 know, and -- and I didn't really want to go to a bar or 6 restaurant or whatever. 7 So, I offered if they wanted to come back to 8 my place for a drink, which they did. They stayed in the 9 backyard and that was it. 10 And -- and I -- I picked up the tab for that, 11 I mean I -- I paid for it myself, I paid for the golf, I paid 12 for everything. I -- that's what I did. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes...? Mr. 14 Manes...? 15 MR. RONALD MANES: Oh, yes? 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I was just wondering, 17 it's -- do you have a question you want to ask -- 18 MR. RONALD MANES: One (1) question arising 19 out of that. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 21 MR. RONALD MANES: And I'll be done -- 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. 23 MR. RONALD MANES: -- with that area. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES:

1 Q: The -- Mr. Domi said that he was not a 2 golfer? 3 A: He's a terrible golfer. 4 Q: All right, well that's consistent with 5 what he said. Those are my questions for the morning, thank 6 you. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Before we take the break, 8 all right. 9 All right, we'll break until ten (10) to. 10 THE REGISTRAR: Order. The Inquiry will 11 recess until ten to 12:00. 12 13 --- Upon recessing at 11:30 a.m. 14 --- Upon resuming at 11:51 a.m. 15 16 THE REGISTRAR: The Inquiry will resume. 17 Please be seated. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 MR. RONALD MANES: I'm sorry, Commissioner. 22 May I just have -- 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yeah. 24 MR. RONALD MANES: -- one moment? 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Are you ready, Mr. Manes? 4 MR. RONALD MANES: Thank you, Commissioner. 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. 6 MR. RONALD MANES: Now, Mr. Jakobek, then I'm 7 going to take you to an entry in July, a couple of them, July 8 of 2000 at your Volume II, Tab 4 and that's when we've heard 9 that the decision was made to extend almost all of the 10 leases, again. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: The -- which one, sorry? 12 MR. RONALD MANES: I'm going to July 2000. So 13 I'll be -- sorry, Commissioner. This would be Page -- 14 THE WITNESS: July -- 15 MR. RONALD MANES: -- 4. 16 THE WITNESS: July 2000? 17 MR. RONALD MANES: July 2000. 18 THE WITNESS: Oh. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 21 Q: We've jumped from 1999. So that's Tab 4 22 and this would be Page 4 and entries 132 and 133. In fact, 23 just Entry 133. There's one -- one telephone contact, 11:15 24 to your office. 25 A: Thank you.

1 Q: Now, I want to bring this to your 2 attention, Mr. Jakobek, to ask you a question, not if you 3 remember this telephone contact but did you -- do you recall 4 having any discussion with Mr. Jakobek, voice mails, 5 exchanges or anything? 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. -- Mr. Manes, you 7 asked him if he recalls having any discussion with Mr. 8 Jakobek? 9 MR. RONALD MANES: Oh, yes. Well -- 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, we get along quite well. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 13 Q: Well, I'm not going to pursue that. 14 Discussion with Mr. Domi, contact with Mr. Domi, on or around 15 July the 11th relating to the staff's decision to extend 16 the -- what was at that point, five (5) year leases? 17 A: Well, first of all, I was not aware of the 18 staff decision to do what they did. Second of all, I don't 19 remember ever having a conversation with Mr. Domi, ever, 20 about something like that. 21 And third of all, I don't think I actually 22 spoke to him on either one of those phone calls. 23 Q: Now, just in terms of contact with Mr. 24 Domi, and I'm leaving these -- these telephone calls in that 25 regard.

1 Mr. Domi, at Page 170, February 10th, Lines 1 2 through 25, said -- 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You don't -- you don't 4 have that, Mr. Jakobek. He's -- 5 MR. RONALD MANES: I'll just read it. 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: He's actually -- just 7 hang on, Mr. Manes, let me explain. He's referring to the 8 transcript. 9 THE WITNESS: Right. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You don't have that. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: But he'll read it to you. 13 And what's the line number is what, again? 14 MR. RONALD MANES: One -- I'll take it through 15 25, but I'm not going to -- 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Just the page number, 17 sorry; 170? 18 MR. RONALD MANES: 170. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 21 Q: And this relates to lunches and dinners, 22 Mr. Jakobek, and Mr. Domi testified under oath that -- that 23 he actually had lunch with you from time to time. 24 Two (2) lunches, that he could recall, around 25 City Hall; didn't know the names of the places, but just in

1 relation to that testimony, do you recall -- well, first of 2 all, do you agree with that, did you have lunch with Mr. Domi 3 from time to time, two (2) lunches around City Hall? 4 A: I have a very good recollection of -- of 5 what lunches, or whatever, I had. And I -- I said to you, 6 and I'll say it again, that I had that breakfast meeting on 7 February 23rd, I had that lunch, or breakfast meeting on 8 November 29th, and those two (2) occasions at that hockey 9 game and that's it. 10 I do not have any -- no, I fact, I did not 11 have lunch, or otherwise, with Mr. Domi on anything. 12 Q: And then he was next asked on that date, 13 whether he ever had dinner with you, Mr. Jakobek. And he, at 14 that point, had told us about one (1) dinner. And he says, 15 in response to this question, 16 "How many times did you have dinner with 17 Mr. Jakobek?" 18 And answer, 19 "A couple of times." 20 Do you recall having dinner with Mr. Domi a 21 couple of times? 22 A: Only the time when we were all going to a 23 hockey game that time, that's it. 24 Q: You mean the -- 25 A: Philadelphia.

1 Q: -- Philadelphia game. All right. Can 2 you -- can you say categorically that your recollection, as 3 you did with lunches, that you did not have dinner with Mr. 4 Jakobek -- with Mr. Domi, sorry again, did you not have 5 dinner with Mr. Domi, other that time in Philadelphia? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: The -- Mr. Domi had testified that 8 generally, sir, he is -- believes himself to be a very loyal 9 person. And he didn't testify that -- testify to that in 10 relation to you, but just testified in general that he's a 11 very loyal person. 12 And he also testified that he was certain that 13 he was not on the flight with you. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: That he was -- oh, okay. 15 Sorry. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 18 Q: Is there any reason that you can think of 19 that Mr. Domi personally would have a loyalty to you? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Or testify falsely because of a loyalty to 22 you? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Did you ever have occasion to speak with 25 Mr. Domi or any representatives of Mr. Domi, regarding what

1 he was going to testify to in relation to whether you were 2 not -- whether or not you were on that flight to 3 Philadelphia? 4 A: No. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: You testified that -- that as far as you 9 were concerned, the Philadelphia flight was a Harold 10 Peerenboom flight? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: Had you known that the flight was bought 13 and paid for and the tickets were bought and paid for by Mr. 14 Domi, on behalf of MFP, a potential bidder on the City 15 contract, would you have gone? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Why not? 18 A: I just wouldn't. First of all if they 19 were bidding on something at the City, I wouldn't. And 20 second of all, even if they weren't bidding with the City, I 21 generally speaking, don't partake in those sort of things. 22 Q: Why not? 23 A: Probably for the same reason I've never 24 claimed a dinner or a lunch or a breakfast meeting with the 25 City of Toronto, I always paid for it myself. Twenty (20)

1 years, I never claimed one (1) expense, ever. 2 Q: Well, what you haven't said is that you 3 think that attending such a -- or going on such a flight, 4 would under these circumstances, be wrong or inappropriate. 5 Do I take it that that's one (1) reason that you would not 6 go, it would be wrong or inappropriate for a Councillor to 7 attend a -- a trip of this kind -- 8 A: I don't think -- 9 Q: -- this expense? 10 A: -- I don't think it would be wise. I 11 don't -- you know, what people do and how they do it, 12 whatever, is their business. But it's just not the way I 13 would operate and have not operated. 14 Q: Well, that's -- is that a wisdom -- is 15 that a -- a political wisdom or a conventional wisdom, or -- 16 A: Personal. 17 Q: -- it's a personal wisdom? 18 A: You know, some people claim their -- their 19 dinners and lunches, I don't. When I actually did take these 20 people golfing, as opposed to accepting their invitation for 21 golfing, I paid for it. I didn't want anybody paying for my 22 golf. 23 So, you know, that's the way I -- that's the 24 way I operated, that's the way I acted, that's the way I did 25 things.

1 Q: Do you feel that a Councillor accepting 2 this kind of trip would be doing something wrong, 3 inappropriate, ethically, in conflict of interest, anything 4 like that? 5 A: Well, Mr. Manes, I -- there have been a 6 number of trips, for example, to China with Councillors and 7 -- and even the Mayor that are often sponsored by Chinese 8 businessmen, you know, the restauranteurs or whatever, in the 9 name of trade. 10 I know that when we did twinning relationships 11 with different you know, cities, these would be sponsored, in 12 fact they would make it a point of saying the City wasn't 13 paying for it. I never went to those, I never did those. 14 But I mean, I -- I would -- I would not draw 15 an absolute line and say, thou shouldn't -- thou shalt never 16 go anywhere or do anything that might be at the cost of 17 someone else, because the -- the entire Olympic bid was done 18 that way with private money. 19 So, I -- I don't want to set myself on some 20 white horse and say, you know, no one should ever do this or 21 that. But you -- more relevant is that fact you said to me, 22 would you go if Mr. Domi had invited you or would you have 23 gone if it was a company or even for this matter, MFP 24 inviting you, and the answer was no. 25 Q: The -- a trip to China, Olympics -- the

81
  1  Olympic trips, those were transparent though, weren't they?
  2                 A:  Nonsense.  No, they're not.
  3                 Q:  Those are done in -- in private, out of
  4  the public -- public eye?
  5                 A:  Well, I -- I don't -- I -- I don't think
  6  anyone knows where all the trips for the Olympics went.  That
  7  was one of our arguments.  That was one of our arguments was
  8  that we knew what everybody was doing.
  9                 Q:  And that's not a good thing?
 10                 A:  I just -- I'm just trying to point out
 11  that it's a wide question you're asking me.  That's all.
 12                 Q:  Well, I thought what you were getting to
 13  was that if it's open and a trip is taken but if it's secret
 14  or otherwise not transparent, that may be another thing? 
 15  There's no distinction there?
 16                 A:  I don't -- I don't -- No, I'm just -- I'm
 17  just trying to answer your question when you asked me
 18  specifically about myself and I -- I'm just saying that my
 19  rules apply to me and not to everybody else.
 20                 Q:  All right.  Mr. Vince Nigro --
 21                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:  Just before you go there. 
 22  Mr. Jakobek, can you help me with who would have paid then
 23  for the Philadelphia trip for you?
 24                 THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  Actually, actually I
 25  asked Harold what I owed him and he said not to worry about

1 it. We -- I -- I booked a trip to Cuba we went on, for 2 example, and I paid everything for Cuba and then Harold paid 3 me his portion later on because there were five (5) of us or 4 six (6) of us that went and in this particular case, when I 5 said, you know, what do I owe you or whatever and he said, 6 well, give me your playoff tickets because the next series 7 was there and he -- he wanted my playoff tickets and I didn't 8 really want to part with them. They're good seats but I did. 9 I sent him my tickets and that was it. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: This is for Cuba or for 11 going to Philadelphia? 12 THE WITNESS: No, for Philadelphia. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: For Philadelphia. 14 THE WITNESS: I gave him a pair of playoff 15 tickets. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: So do you know that MFP 17 paid for the trip to Philadelphia? 18 THE WITNESS: Well, I know that now. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: So Mr. Peerenboom -- 20 THE WITNESS: Harold got a pair of playoff 21 tickets. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: For nothing? 23 THE WITNESS: You know what, I -- I -- Madam 24 Justice, you don't know that man. You may or may not want to 25 know the man but, you know, he's a bit of a character and

1 that's what I asked him and that's what he said and I 2 reluctantly gave him my playoff tickets and that was it. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: So he never told you that 4 -- did he ever tell you that this was Dash Domi's invitation? 5 THE WITNESS: No. No. 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: The -- 7 THE WITNESS: I remember him talking on the 8 phone when I was driving him up. I said, who are you talking 9 to and he said Dash Domi and I said is he going on the trip 10 and he said, yeah, I invited him and that was his answer. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: He said he invited Dash 12 Domi? 13 THE WITNESS: Yeah. So I mean -- I -- my 14 playoff tickets are centre ice, front row, golds. They're 15 good seats. 16 MR. LORNE HONICKMAN: Commissioner, sorry. 17 Before Mr. Manes just leaves Dash Domi, can we get it clear 18 on the record. He asked him a question about -- 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes. 20 MR. LORNE HONICKMAN: -- February 11th and I 21 understand that the answer was the exact opposite as to what 22 Mr. Manes had inferred in his question. I just want to get 23 that verified, if I can. 24 MR. RONALD MANES: I can -- I can verify that 25 the answer was almost precisely the opposit