1 2 3 4 TORONTO COMPUTER LEASING INQUIRY 5 6 7 8 ******************** 9 10 11 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE MADAM JUSTICE DENISE BELLAMY, 12 COMMISSIONER 13 14 15 16 17 Held at: East York Civic Centre 18 850 Coxwell Avenue 19 Toronto, Ontario 20 M4C 5R1 21 22 ******************** 23 24 25 May 8th, 2003

2
  1                        APPEARANCES
  2  Ronald Manes            )Commission Counsel 
  3  Patrick Moore  (np)     )
  4  Daina Groskaufmanis     ) 
  5  Linda Rothstein         )City of Toronto 
  6  Lily Harmer    (np)     )
  7  Robert Centa            )
  8  Gordon Capern  (np)     )
  9  David Moore    (np)     )MFP 
 10  Fraser Berrill          ) 
 11  Ken Jones      (np)     ) 
 12  Brian Heller   (np)     )Ball Hsu and Associates Ltd.
 13  Melissa Kronick (np)    )CUPE 
 14  Raj Anand      (np)     )Lana Viinamae
 15  Bay Ryley               )
 16  William Anderson        )Wanda Liczyk
 17  Valerie Dyer    (np)    )Dell Computers
 18  Jennifer Lynch          )
 19  Edward Greenspan (np)   )Jeff Lyons
 20  Todd White              )
 21  Hugh MacKenzie  (np)    )Jim Andrew
 22  Jennifer Searle (np)    )
 23  Bryan McPhadden (np)    )Brendan Power
 24  
 25  Joyce Ihamaki           )Registrar

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 4 Exhibits 4 5 6 Jeffrey Stephen Lyons, Sworn, 7 Examination In-Chief by Mr. Ronald Manes 5 8 9 Certificate of Transcript 202 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 4 32 VOLUME I Bound document titled 22 5 "Jeff Lyons" tabs 1-44. 6 7 32 VOLUME II Bound document titled 22 8 "Jeff Lyons" tabs 1-36. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 10:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: The Inquiry is now in session. 4 Please be seated. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Good morning. 9 MR. RONALD MANES: Good morning, Commissioner. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 JEFFREY STEPHEN LYONS, Sworn; 14 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Good morning. 16 17 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. RONALD MANES: 18 Q: Good morning, Mr. Lyons. 19 A: Good morning. 20 Q: Before we talk about your career as a 21 lawyer or lobbyist, when you came here, you had been served 22 with a summons? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: The -- the summons requires you to bring 25 all relevant documents that you may have in your -- to read

1 it, custody, possession or power. My question to you is do 2 you have any -- any documents? Have you brought any 3 documents here today that could be relevant or helpful to the 4 Commissioner? 5 A: No. 6 MR. TODD WHITE: I think Mr. Manes means apart 7 from the ones that he's already provided? 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes. 9 MR. TODD WHITE: It's -- 10 MR. RONALD MANES: That's quite right. 11 THE WITNESS: No. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 14 Q: The ones that you had provided previously 15 related to MFP. You gave us several documents regarding your 16 relationship with MFP but we've received nothing with respect 17 to your relationship with Dell Financial or Dell Computer. 18 Do you have any files or faxes or memorandums, letters, 19 retainer agreements, anything in relation to your 20 representation of Dell Computer, Dell Financial? 21 A: No. 22 Q: The evidence which Ms. Cross gave the 23 other day was that the -- your files were kept in an unlocked 24 cabinet behind your administrative assistant -- assistant. 25 Is that right?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: When you left Morrison, Brown and 3 Sosnovitch, I take it you took the MFP file because you were 4 able to give that to us but what happened to the Dell 5 Financial file and the Dell Computer file? 6 A: Well, normally we don't keep files once we 7 cease acting for the clients unless there's some document 8 that we require, you know, for long term purposes. So there 9 was nothing there to keep. 10 Q: Those -- when you say nothing to keep, 11 after a certain period of time do you destroy these files? 12 A: Usually immediately when we're not acting 13 because we were short for room in our filing cabinet. 14 Q: Do you remember when you ended acting for 15 Dell Computer, on anything? 16 A: Well, around the end of 2001, something 17 like that. 18 Q: And Dell Financial? 19 A: Oh, that was right after this event, I 20 guess, July '99. 21 Q: All right. In the case of Dell Computer, 22 Dell Financial Services, then the files would have been 23 destroyed on or about when you ceased acting for them? 24 A: I can't be certain as to the exact date, 25 but, in around there.

1 Q: Would you have personal knowledge of that, 2 or would that have been done by somebody else in your firm, 3 at the time? 4 A: It could have been done by someone else. 5 Q: Was there a regular process of destroying 6 files after they -- after you were done working on them or 7 was that something that you would have had to give 8 instruction on? 9 A: Well, we tried to weed them out if we're 10 not using them and we try to do that within a few weeks or 11 months of the -- of acting for them. 12 Q: In this -- in the specific case, Dell 13 Computer, DFS, do you recall whether you specifically gave 14 the instruction to destroy those files, to the best of your 15 recollection? 16 A: Probably. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: In any event, those files aren't 21 available, you've looked for them? 22 A: Yes, I did. 23 Q: Now, we've inquired of Morrison Brown and 24 Sosnovitch, they've gotten back to us and said they didn't 25 have them. So, I take it that when you left them, either the

1 files were destroyed or they were destroyed after you left 2 them? 3 A: What was the question again sorry? 4 Q: Let me ask the question this way. When 5 you left Morrison Brown and Sosnovitch, do you remember 6 taking the Dell Financial or Dell Computer files? 7 A: Not Dell Financial. Dell Computer might 8 still have been a client. 9 Q: You left Morrison Brown Sosnovitch, on 10 what date, approximately? 11 A: June of 2001. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now, MFP wasn't a client obviously at that 16 point, June 2001? 17 A: Yes, they were. 18 Q: Oh, they were -- 19 A: Right -- 20 Q: -- that's quite right. So, when you left 21 do you remember whether you took the Dell Computer file, when 22 you left Morrison Brown and Sosnovitch? 23 A: If I was still acting, we definitely took 24 it. 25 Q: And do you remember whether you took the

1 Dell Financial file? 2 A: I doubt it. 3 Q: In any event, you've done a search and 4 those files -- 5 A: Are not -- 6 Q: -- right -- 7 A: -- no. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Just help me, Mr. Lyons, 9 when you talk about the files that you took with you or 10 didn't take with you, were these files in which you were 11 acting in a capacity as a lawyer, or as a consultant or 12 lobbyist or both or neither or? 13 THE WITNESS: Well, in most cases, I was 14 acting as a consultant. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 16 THE WITNESS: If there was anything of a legal 17 nature it would have been being done by other people in the 18 law firm, not me. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Thanks. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 22 Q: Actually, that is one (1) of the 23 questions, one (1) of the issues, that I do want to go into 24 with you, a bit later. 25 But, let's talk about your career as a lawyer

1 and as a lobbyist. You have been a lawyer for, by my count, 2 approximately thirty seven (37) years? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: '66 -- 1966 call to the Bar? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Named Queen's Counsel 1977? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: You were a Bencher at the Law Society of 9 Upper Canada 1983 to 1991? 10 A: Yes. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Pardon, 1983 to '91? 12 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 15 Q: That Bench of the Law Society, that is a 16 position in which you are elected by your peers? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you would have been elected on two (2) 19 occasions to two (2) consecutive terms? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Your function as a -- as a Bencher of the 22 Law Society, Benchers are the governors of the Law Society? 23 Governors of the -- of the lawyers in the province? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And they regulate the conduct of lawyers,

1 including providing Code of Professional Conduct? 2 A: They would regulate it, yes. 3 Q: The -- that code would include issues such 4 as fees and conflicts and disclosure? 5 A: Well, they set the rules of professional 6 conduct -- 7 Q: Include -- 8 A: -- and that would include -- are you 9 mentioning conflict? Yes. 10 Q: All right and fees, such as charging 11 contingent fees? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. Now, that -- those apply only 14 when you're acting as a lawyer? It doesn't apply when you're 15 acting as a lobbyist? 16 A: That would -- yes. 17 Q: All right. The Law Society has no 18 jurisdiction over the activities of lobbyists? They are -- 19 correct? Unless you're acting, as well, as a lawyer at the 20 same time? 21 A: That would be my understanding because you 22 wouldn't be practicing law. 23 Q: Right. 24 A: I mean, as long as you're not practicing 25 law, then I don't see where these rules have application.

1 Q: All right. The -- you had your own firm 2 for twenty-two (22) years, approximately? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that grew over time to approximately 5 forty-five (45) lawyers? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: As I understand it, that firm then 8 disbanded about 1990 and you became associated with other 9 firms? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And one of those firms that you had a 12 formal association with -- I think maybe the last firm that 13 you had a formal association with was Morrison Brown 14 Sosnovitch? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: Now, when did that association start with 17 Morrison Brown Sosnovitch? 18 A: My association with them? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: I think December of 1995. 21 Q: Now, on the -- on the letterhead and other 22 documents, you're called counsel. Could you explain what 23 that means, to be counsel to Morrison Brown Sosnovitch? 24 A: I think it's more of a title, partly 25 because I wasn't a partner and I think they wanted to feature

1 me on their letterhead so -- because they wanted me partly as 2 a rainmaker. 3 Q: All right. Now, at the time that -- at 4 the time you became associated with Morrison Brown Sosnovitch 5 as a counsel, were you practicing law anymore? 6 A: Not really. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: I was doing some administrative law but -- 9 Q: In relation to -- to Dell Financial 10 Services, Dell Computer were you engaged in giving them legal 11 advice or practising law when they retained you? 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. Now, as I understand your 14 practice when you were practicing law, you did insurance, 15 negligence and product liability cases for a good twenty (20) 16 years? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And I recall -- understand that early on 19 in your career you made a name for yourself doing product 20 liability cases and in particular, the Aitkin case involving 21 -- was it rusty Ford's? 22 A: Yes, I was the one (1) that, sort of, 23 pioneered class actions in this country, with that case. 24 Q: Do you -- as I recall and we'll come to 25 it, talk about that on your website, for the Lyons Group?

15
  1                 A:  Yes, 'cause it was one (1) of the great
  2  accomplishments of my legal career, is what you see today in
  3  class actions.
  4                 Q:  That -- that Aitkin case, that was a class
  5  action under the Class Proceedings Act, or was there such an
  6  Act, at the time?
  7                 A:  No, there wasn't, it was Rule 75, which we
  8  went all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada, on the
  9  ability to bring a class action.
 10                 And when that was struck down by the Supreme
 11  Court of Canada, they proceeded to do a white paper on class
 12  proceedings, and then brought forward this Class Proceedings
 13  Act, that now permits class actions.  The Rule just wasn't
 14  broad enough at the time.
 15                 Q:  All right.  That Class Proceedings Act, as
 16  I recall, you would recall, that permitted contingent fees?
 17                 A:  The Class Proceedings Act?
 18                 Q:  Yes?
 19                 A:  Yes, it does.
 20                 Q:  All right.  And again we'll have some
 21  discussion about that.  In terms of your legal career, in
 22  particular, your doing insurance negligence work and product
 23  liability, as I recall, at some point no fault insurance was
 24  coming along the horizon and your practice changed a bit?
 25                 A:  Yes.

1 Q: And could you describe how it changed as a 2 result of no fault and perhaps other factors? 3 A: Well, we were all into, about twelve (12) 4 lawyers doing insurance work. But, we were concerned in the 5 early -- late 80's, early 90's, about no fault, because there 6 might have been a prohibition against lawsuits for pain and 7 suffering. 8 Or there might have been a threshold, which 9 really does exist today, but, what little people realized, 10 was that the lawyers made a whole business out of 11 representing people dealing with no fault benefits. And 12 actually the industry grew. 13 Q: As it turned out? 14 A: As it turned out. 15 Q: But, you didn't foresee that? 16 A: Well, I got -- to be very frank, got 17 bored. During jury cases all the time, or trials involving 18 fender benders and the insurance company was your defendant, 19 who really didn't care much about the result and you put all 20 that effort in, for little return. 21 And it was the same issues. Every case was 22 the same. 23 Q: So when -- when did your -- when did you 24 change direction? 25 A: When I joined this firm, Fogler, Rubinoff.

1 Q: And that was in what -- 2 A: 90 -- 1990. 3 Q: That was after your firm had disbanded? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And so you joined about 1990 and what 6 kind of work did you do for them? First of all, did you do 7 legal work? 8 A: Yes, I did some. I was working on 9 municipal -- some municipal issues. I actually filled my 10 time part-time as the Chairman of an insurance group. It was 11 sort of a potpourri of different things -- different issues 12 -- different files. 13 Q: Now, just to put this in perspective, as 14 well, you served on the Board of the TTC, for ten (10) years, 15 '79 to '89? 16 A: Did you say Chair? 17 Q: No, just served on? 18 A: Served on it, yes. 19 Q: And from 1979 to 1989? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: All right. And you became Chair from 1987 22 to 1989? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Dealt with some municipal issues in that 25 capacity?

1 A: You mean, at the TTC -- 2 Q: Yes -- 3 A: -- we'd be dealing with -- yes. 4 Q: Just trying to get an idea, you know, of 5 the kind of practice that you had -- 6 A: Right -- 7 Q: -- and experience at that time, in terms 8 of municipal affairs. 9 A: Right. 10 Q: You were at Fogler Rubinoff for how many 11 years? 12 A: Five (5) years. 13 Q: Five (5) years, and that's when you then 14 went over to Morrison Brown Sosnovitch? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: So by the time you went over there you, in 17 effect, were no longer practising law? 18 A: Essentially. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: I might have had a couple files I was 21 cleaning up in the first year or two (2). 22 Q: Now, you said previously in your evidence 23 that when you were over there -- in terms of your 24 relationship with the -- with the firm -- they -- you worked 25 more on a partner. They sort of wanted you on their

1 letterhead, but you were basically a rainmaker? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. Am I right, Mr. Lyons, that in 4 terms of rainmaking, you never practised law 100 percent. 5 Rainmaking was always part of what you did? 6 A: Yes. I enjoyed the rainmaking. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Is someone going to ever 8 tell us what they think rainmaking is? 9 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, that's my next 10 question, Commissioner. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay, good. 12 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 13 Q: Could you tell -- could you tell us what 14 rainmakers do? 15 A: They introduce the clients and I consider 16 that to have some value in a law firm. 17 Q: Could you expand on that? What do you 18 mean they introduce the clients? 19 A: Well, the rainmaker brings in the business 20 and probably tries to maintain the business and doesn't 21 necessarily do the production. 22 Q: The -- let's see if I have this right. 23 The rainmaker would bring in the business, not necessarily do 24 it? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: All right. It involves spending time with 2 people? Cultivating relationships with people? 3 A: Absolutely. 4 Q: And you do favours for them, they do 5 favours for you? 6 A: Well, I don't know if it's favours but you 7 develop a relationship and -- and you -- you -- probably the 8 most important thing you can do for a client is service them 9 and it's -- I think that's what they want. Most of these 10 clients don't need favours. I think they want service. 11 Q: When I say favours for them, they for you, 12 you might give them tickets to something or you might give 13 them legal work at gratis, for free, or a reduced fee? 14 A: That could hap -- that could occur on 15 occasion. 16 Q: So, when I say that you do favours for 17 them and they can do favours for you, that's all part of 18 rainmaking and building relationships? Isn't that fair? 19 A: That would be part of it. 20 Q: All right. Now, in conjunction with all 21 this, you're -- you're practising law and you're -- you're 22 rainmaking which you bring in these clients to the firm. 23 You're also involved in fundraising? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now, as -- as -- as I understand it,

1 fundraising for -- in the political area? Charitable? 2 A: Charitable as much as political. 3 Q: Do -- Now, there's a quote in one of these 4 articles that you had toyed with politics but you settled on 5 being a fundraiser. Is that -- 6 A: Well, I en -- I enjoyed it and I don't 7 think I wanted to be serving an elected office. 8 Q: You did extensive fundraising for the Tory 9 party? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: That would be Provincial and Federal? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Also fundraising for municipal Councils? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: This article, I'll take you to it if need 16 be but you're quoted as -- as saying that -- that you're a 17 great networker. That, quote: 18 "Everyone knows that I am connected." 19 That's quoting you. Is that -- is that an 20 accurate quote? You are a great networker and -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- you are connected? 23 A: Yes. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes, can you tell 25 us what you're quoting from, please? Is that in the

1 material? 2 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 4 MR. RONALD MANES: I can take you there. It's 5 Volume 1, both Volumes 1 and 2, should be entered as 6 Exhibits, at this time -- 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have them here. 8 REGISTRAR: So it will be Exhibit 32, Volume 1 9 and Volume 2. 10 THE WITNESS: 32? 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: It's our Exhibit number, 12 Mr. Lyons. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. 32 VOLUME I: Bound document titled "Jeff 15 Lyons" tabs 1-44. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. 32 VOLUME II: Bound document titled "Jeff 18 Lyons" tabs 1-36. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 21 Q: That would be Tab 15 -- and I'm going to 22 make reference to this article that's Begdoc -- that's our 23 code number for these, our data bank number, that's Begdoc 24 43061. 25 And this is an article about you, entitled the

1 Lyons King, by Bruce Livesey, L-I-V-E-S-E-Y, Livesey. 2 Remember being interviewed for that article? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And you're quoted several 5 times, and that's just -- the quote that I'm talking about is 6 after that first small indented paragraph about six (6) down: 7 "Everyone knows I'm -- 8 A: I see it here, yes. 9 Q: " -- a great networker." 10 A: I see it. 11 Q: All right. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And this article goes on to say, this is 16 at 40361, quoting you as saying: 17 "Everyone wants to be part of my Rolodex, I 18 have a great Rolodex." 19 That's accurate? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: What do you mean, you have a great 22 Rolodex? 23 A: Well, I was being a bit flippant, but, I 24 do have -- I do enjoy meeting people and as you say, I 25 describe myself as a rainmaker, so I -- you know, have a lot

1 of contacts in a lot of different areas. People I've met 2 over the number of years, that I've been just doing business 3 in the City. 4 Q: Just to put this all in perspective, many 5 of the people who you meet during the course of your 6 fundraising or for whom you fundraise, you consider friends? 7 A: Well, I'm friendly with them. It depends, 8 I mean, some become true friends and others are just -- you 9 become friendly. Or they're professional relationships. 10 Q: At the bottom of that second page, at Tab 11 15, 43062, in talking about the election, I take in 1999, you 12 were quoted as saying, well I should read this: 13 "In fact, during last years Ontario 14 election, Lyons helped raise money for 15 between thirty (30) and forty (40) Tory 16 candidates, some of whom are currently 17 cabinet ministers. In a deposition he gave 18 last year for a lawsuit, he said he 19 probably attended fundraisers for virtually 20 every member of the cabinet." 21 And then quoting you: 22 "Most of these people that I raise money 23 for (have been personal friends of mine) 24 Lyons said." 25 Would that be accurate?

1 A: Well, first of all, that's referring to 2 the provincial party and some of these cabinet minister have 3 been friends of mine, because I've been involved in Tory 4 politics for forty (40) years and some of them go back about 5 forty (40) years, so -- some would -- most of them I was 6 friendly with. 7 It was probably an exaggerated comment, and 8 some of them if I've known them for forty (40) years, might 9 be friends, more than friendly, and they might be friends. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: This article goes a little further up with 14 reporters saying: 15 "I am a frustrated would-be politician." 16 Do you see that? Under the -- the title 17 would-be politician, you go down about twenty (20) lines. 18 A: What page is this now? 19 Q: We're still at Tab -- 20 A: Oh, 6 too? 21 Q: Yes, we're still at -- 22 A: I -- I've said that before. Without even 23 looking, I know I've said that. 24 Q: Right and that's about eleven (11) or 25 twelve (12) lines down, Mr. Lyons.

1 "I am a frustrated would-be politician. 2 I --" 3 A: Oh, I see it. 4 Q: And then it makes a -- it makes a -- the 5 journalist makes and statements this -- Mr. Livesey: 6 "Lyons has a remarkable talent for raising 7 money for -- for politicians." 8 Do you agree with that statement, that you do 9 have a remarkable talent for raising money for politicians? 10 A: I think -- it's just that I like 11 fundraising. I do it for so many different causes that 12 anytime I'm working on three (3) or four (4) clauses. To 13 give you a list today what I'm working on -- 14 Q: No, that's all right. 15 A: So it's not necessarily -- my talent is 16 fundraising, not necessarily for politicians as part of it 17 but give me a good cause and I'll get involved. I enjoy it. 18 Q: The fundraising, I appreciate, you enjoy 19 but that's fundraising -- fundraising is part of the lobbying 20 business as well? 21 A: Oh, yes. 22 Q: All right. This talent that you have for 23 fundraising, your career began in 1976 when you became active 24 in Joe Clark's run for Conservative leadership? 25 A: I guess --

1 Q: That statement -- 2 A: No, I was active before that with -- in 3 politics. I was one of the youth leaders but I guess if 4 you're saying fundraising, that might have been the first 5 time. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: I mean, I was probably a young kid when I 8 was first involved. 9 Q: And then you -- you, according to this 10 article during the 1979 federal election, you helped raise 11 nearly $1 million for the Tories from Toronto's business 12 community. Would that be correct? 13 A: I was involved with a group that did, yes 14 but it wasn't totally me. 15 Q: I appreciate that. Now, we talked about 16 your -- your career as a -- as a lawyer, the involvement of 17 rainmaking in there and in that context as well, fundraising. 18 Let's talk about you as a lobbyist. When do you say that you 19 actually considered yourself a lobbyist? 20 A: It was a gradual evolution and I never 21 really got into this as a full time business probably until 22 -- oh, I -- I guess around maybe when the provincial 23 Conservatives got elected, I started to really move into it. 24 So -- 25 Q: What's the year?

28
  1                 A:  That's the '95.
  2                 Q:  Would you have considered yourself a
  3  lobbyist in 1995 then?
  4                 A:  Part time.  Not full time.
  5                 Q:  Would you have held yourself out as or
  6  promoted yourself as a lobbyist at that time?
  7                 A:  To some -- t -- yes.
  8                 Q:  All right.  Now, you presently, under the
  9  name Lyons Group, have a website and I'm going to take you to
 10  that in a moment but I -- before I do, I just would like to
 11  know from you in your own words, rather than the website's
 12  words, what it is that you do as a lobbyist for a living?
 13                 A:  Well, I'm a -- I'm a consultant.  I'm a
 14  problem solver.  I strategize.  I arrange -- I have -- I
 15  arrange meetings and provide intelligence and I think that's
 16  it.
 17                 Q:  The -- this would be all in relation to
 18  the government, provincial, municipal levels?  That would be
 19  the context in which you solved problems, solved --
 20  strategized, arranged meetings, gather intelligence?
 21                 A:  Sometimes I do it for private -- I always
 22  have a certain percentage of private sector clients, who
 23  really are looking to do business with other private sector
 24  companies.
 25                 But, generally, most of that would apply -- I

1 mean I also, that's government relations which you're 2 referencing, though. 3 Q: But, a lobbyist is somebody that 4 represents clients in relation to the government and -- 5 A: You know you could be lobbying other 6 companies -- 7 Q: -- is it all in that context? 8 A: You could also lobby other companies, I've 9 done that. I mean, anyways, but, generally it's perceived to 10 be with politics and I agree with you, on that. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: Just indicating that sometimes I do it 13 with private sector. 14 Q: But, whether or not, that is considered 15 lobbying the lion's share of what you do, is in relation to 16 the provincial and municipal levels of government? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And at the municipal levels of government, 19 it would be primarily if not exclusively, City of Toronto? 20 A: Primarily, the City of Toronto, yes. 21 Q: All right. If you can turn to your Volume 22 2, that's the thin one (1) -- there's a thick one (1) and a 23 thick one (1), Mr. Lyons, this is the thin one (1). 24 A: Okay. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And go to Tab 1 and none of these have 4 been scanned into our data bank, so I'll just refer to these 5 by Volume number and Tab number -- 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: -- and the number of pages in. Now, this 8 is -- you just have a look through this, we just have 9 accessed your website and downloaded it. 10 Would you look through that and tell me if 11 that's your -- 12 A: Yes, that's my website. 13 Q: All right. Now, the Lyons Group, 14 according to -- according to this, I'm at the first page, Mr. 15 Lyons. 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: According to this, the Lyons Group was 18 created in 2000? That would be right? 19 A: Maybe it was. I was thinking 2001, but, 20 maybe it's 2000, I could be wrong with dates. 21 Q: All right. I guess the point -- the point 22 is, that assuming that it's created in 2000, this website is 23 right, it would have been created at some point, after you 24 left Morrison Brown and Sosnovitch? 25 A: That's right.

1 Q: All right. And you left there in 2000? 2 A: It might have been 2000. And I'm -- you 3 know what, I'm confusing, I think 2001 -- okay. 4 Q: All right. Well, unless we hear 5 otherwise, you adopt what you have on your website here? 6 A: I do. 7 Q: All right. Prior to 2000, you conducted 8 your lobbying business in the context of being Counsel to 9 Morrison Brown and Sosnovitch, correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. And then after 2000, you 12 created -- and after leaving Morrison Brown and Sosnovitch, 13 as their Counsel, you created the Lyons Group, the website 14 and so on and so forth? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, the Lyons Group, is a government 17 relations firm, serving a wide variety of clients, on both 18 the municipal and provincial levels? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: All right. This -- it doesn't say 21 anything about a private sector really, but, basically 22 promotes the Lyons Group, as a government relations firm? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: At the municipal and provincial levels? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: All right. And this next paragraph states 2 in effect, that your clients benefits from extensive 3 knowledge and expertise in policies, procurement, legislation 4 and regulation? I'm still on that first page. 5 A: Oh, you're on the first page? 6 Q: It's on the first page. 7 A: Okay. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: It's the last paragraph, 9 Mr. Lyons. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. I -- it says that. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 13 Q: That would be right? 14 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 15 Q: All right. Now, this talks about -- in 16 the next sentence: 17 "Expertise gained from a combination of 18 forty (40) years experience." 19 I take it that's in -- in combination with you 20 and other people in the Lyons Group? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: You have experience and extensive 23 knowledge in policy, procurement, legislation and regulation. 24 Would that be accurate? 25 A: Me, myself.

1 Q: Yes. 2 A: You're talking about now? 3 Q: Yeah. 4 A: I would have some understanding, yes. 5 Q: When you say you would have some 6 understanding, would you be expert in -- if you go -- go to 7 the next page here, the second paragraph: 8 "An expert in navigating issues and 9 concerns through the often labyrinth 10 channels of government." 11 Is that something that you would feel 12 comfortable in saying that you are an expert in? 13 A: Yes, because it's a -- you know, after 14 being involved with government for years, you sort of have a 15 sense of how to navigate. 16 Q: And if you then go to the -- 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: I just have to count these pages here. If 21 you go to the -- four (4) pages from the -- from the back is 22 the best way that I can do this. 23 A: Okay. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: What does it say on the 25 top, Mr. Manes?

1 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, it says -- the way 2 these are numbered. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well -- 4 MR. RONALD MANES: The way these are numbered, 5 it says 1 of 1, so it never -- 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 7 MR. RONALD MANES: It's -- actually, I've 8 numbered the pages. Page -- 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: The one on the side that 10 says "Provincial Services and Municipal Services"? 11 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay, thank you. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 15 Q: And we're looking at actually what "Lyons 16 Group services, municipal services". Do you see -- see where 17 I am -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- for that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right and this describes what it is 22 you do and -- and -- and your -- and the Lyons Group does in 23 relation to municipal services? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: Do you want to take a moment and just read

1 that over? 2 A: Yes, I've just been reading it. Yes. 3 Q: Now, you -- you state in the first 4 paragraph that: 5 "When dealing with any municipal 6 government, it is important to read the 7 political landscape correctly." 8 A: Correct, yes. 9 Q: And you go on to say: 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Are you asking him, Mr. 11 Manes, whether he agrees that that's on his website or 12 whether he agrees with what is contained there? 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 15 Q: Whether you agree with what that is 16 contained -- what is contained there, that in dealing with 17 any municipal government, it's important to -- for the client 18 to -- to read the political landscape correctly? 19 A: Yes, I agree with that. 20 Q: And the next paragraph: 21 "From introduction at the committee level 22 to working with City Council, as a whole 23 Lyons Group directs its clients through the 24 every -- through every step of the 25 municipal procedure -- procedural process."

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Do you agree -- 3 A: I agree with that. 4 Q: -- with that? 5 A: I agree with -- well, that's -- that's 6 right. 7 Q: All right. Monitoring services, research, 8 background information, all relevant to committees, agencies, 9 boards, commissions -- 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: -- Council meetings. You do all that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And then skip a paragraph. 14 "The Lyons Group knowledge -- our knowledge 15 of both the political and bureaucratic 16 levels of government equip our clients with 17 the resources to gain the fullest exposure 18 and fairest consideration. Our team is 19 familiar with the workings of Council and 20 staff offices, enabling Lyons group to 21 fully prepare you and your firm no matter 22 what obstacles lie ahead." 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. You do that. Let -- let's 25 then just go back so that you can help us understand the full

1 import of what you say here, in relation to your services to 2 municipalities and in particular, the City of Toronto. 3 I take it when someone has an interest in 4 doing business -- a client has an interest in doing business 5 with the City of Toronto, it would be important for them to, 6 as you say, to read the political landscape correctly? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Now, how is it that you do that? I mean, 9 how is it that you assist a client, in reading the political 10 landscape correctly? 11 A: Well, of course, the issues are various 12 and myriad, so I'd probably have to deal with an example. Do 13 you have -- 14 Q: All right. 15 A: I mean -- 16 Q: Well, let's take DFS. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Come to you, we'll flesh that out a little 19 bit more later, come to you and they want to do business with 20 the City -- 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: -- in this context, 1999 leasing RFQ and 23 you're going to advise them about the political landscape, 24 correct? 25 A: Correct.

1 Q: All right. So, what do you do? 2 A: Well, first of all, they'd tell me what 3 they're selling or what they want to sell. And then I would 4 be saying, in that case, since they were into leasing, does 5 the City, first of all, is the City interested in doing 6 leasing, that's the first question, which was the issue. 7 And then I'd say, your problem is, not 8 necessarily winning this bid, you better convince the City 9 that they're interested in leasing. 10 So, that would be a reading of the political 11 landscape. You know, they'd just be assuming they're going 12 in to win a bid, and I'd be saying, hold on a second, I'm not 13 sure that they're even interested. 14 Q: Let's stop there. Because that's very 15 helpful. You -- at that meeting, would have made that 16 observation, I take it, that better find out whether the City 17 is interested in leasing, because you had some sense that 18 they may not necessarily be interested in leasing? 19 A: Absolutely. 20 Q: Now, how would you know that? We're 21 talking about leasing IT here. But, how would you know that 22 the City would not necessarily be interested in leasing IT? 23 A: Probably wouldn't have known that until 24 they retained me. I don't do a lot of work until I'm 25 retained, as you can appreciate. And I would probably then

1 start snooping around a bit or somebody would, to find out, 2 what's the City doing about leasing -- what's this -- 3 hardware, I guess. 4 And I'd be finding out, well, they don't 5 lease, they buy. They're not really interested in leasing, 6 at all. So, then I'd be saying to the client, you've got a 7 problem here. You got to back up a bit. 8 Q: All right. Let me just stop there. Just 9 -- because you needed a specific example, DFS, and whether 10 the City was interested or not, in leasing. 11 You had and have several clients in the IT 12 business? 13 A: I do or I did? 14 Q: You did at that time, I believe? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And wouldn't you have gotten 17 some understanding of the City's interest in IT and in 18 particular, leasing IT, just gathering intelligence from, 19 let's say, the IT department and your relationship there? 20 A: It's possible, but, you know, if you're 21 not focussed on the issue -- I have a great sense of when 22 nothing involves me, I don't want to listen. I have got 23 enough to do without listening to every story. 24 Q: You're a need to know, kind of guy? 25 A: I'm on a need to know. If they're talking

1 about something else, my mind is not into it. 2 Q: Well, to read the political landscape 3 correctly, as you put it here, in the website. You would 4 normally, as you say, snoop around, does that mean that you 5 would pick up the telephone or -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- or go see people that you have 8 relationships with? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And you'd say, so, I've got 11 this client interested in leasing -- selling leasing services 12 to City of Toronto, think they're interested? Something to 13 that effect? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now, this talks about not only the 16 political but also -- also the bureaucratic level, I take it 17 that you are going to get -- you're going to snoop around at 18 both the political and the bureaucratic level to get the 19 information you need, intelligence. 20 A: Right. 21 Q: G -- would you recall, again a specific 22 case at DFS, whether you would have spoken with Jim Andrew, 23 for example? He was the Executive Director of IT. 24 A: He would be one of the sources that I 25 would have phoned, not necessarily him.

1 Q: All right. I appreciate that but he -- 2 that -- that was a person that you had dealt with in respect 3 to other clients? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: All right. He was well known to you, at 6 least in a professional context? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right and would you -- in gathering 9 your intelligence, would you have spoken to any politicians 10 in terms of reading this political landscape correctly? 11 A: Probably not on that issue because you'd 12 probably be checking with the staff if they're interested in 13 doing something like that. You know, leasing. 14 Q: Politicians, though -- Councillors in this 15 -- in this context. Councillors are the ones that ultimately 16 make the decisions? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Now, I -- I appreciate that -- that it's 19 very relevant what staff thinks, but Councillors often make 20 -- ultimately make those decisions, correct? 21 A: Yes, but -- yes. 22 Q: They -- they take recommendations -- City 23 Council takes recommendations from -- from committees. 24 Councillors populate committees? 25 A: Committees take recommendations from

1 staff. 2 Q: Correct. So you start -- you sort of nose 3 around with the staff and get an idea of the -- of the 4 bureaucratic landscape, really, in terms of that attitude 5 towards leasing? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And do -- does that lead to speaking with 8 any politicians? For example, if a particular politician 9 would be relevant to the information gathering process, would 10 you speak with that politician as well, just to get their 11 opinion on it? 12 A: Not at that point. 13 Q: Well, let's take, again using that DFS 14 example as just a general example of how you go about this. 15 You would have known that Mr. Jakobek was -- was the budget 16 chief? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Budget chief is a powerful position at the 19 City of Toronto? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And this particular budget chief, Mr. 22 Jakobek, he was -- he had -- as a priority, he would know 23 about keeping the -- the budget at a zero (0) level? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And he was a person who seemed to have his

1 finger on every financial impact on the City? 2 A: Well, he was an involved budget chief; 3 that was known. 4 Q: He would be a person, when it came whether 5 to buy or to lease that, obviously, would be -- would be a 6 budget consideration? 7 A: Yes. No, later that became apparent 8 but -- 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: -- I thought you were asking me from the 11 beginning. 12 Q: All right. That -- later that became 13 apparent but at the beginning you would start at the 14 bureaucratic level? That's what you're -- 15 A: Right. 16 Q: -- what you're saying? All right but you 17 would have quickly found out starting at this bureaucratic 18 level that leasing may have been a consideration for one 19 reason at the IT level but it was a different consideration 20 at the financial level? 21 A: That's true. 22 Q: So Mr. Andrew -- let's just take -- 23 continue on this situation. Would -- your discussion with 24 Mr. Andrew or would there have been talks about using words 25 like refresh and replace and rollout?

1 MR. TODD WHITE: Well, I take it Madam 2 Commissioner, we're still in the hypothetical? 3 MR. RONALD MANES: We're not. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm not sure. Mr. Manes? 5 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, when I say would 6 there have been, I'm not -- I'm not in the hypothetical here. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 8 MR. RONALD MANES: Would there have been -- 9 MR. TODD WHITE: You prefaced that question 10 that he spoke to Jim Andrews and I think the evidence was, 11 you know, hypothetically I don't -- he didn't say that he was 12 -- he spoken to Jim Andrews when he got retained. 13 MR. RONALD MANES: Well -- 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, I guess Mr. Manes, 15 one (1) of the difficulties we have of using an example, that 16 Mr. Lyons called for, which turns out to be a real example, 17 is that in trying to get a sense of what Mr. Lyons would do 18 for a client, in this particular case, you're asking him not 19 only what would he do, but, what did he do. 20 Have I got that right? 21 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes, I'll rephrase the 22 question. 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES:

1 Q: In this particular case, did you speak 2 with Mr. Andrew, about the bureaucratic landscape? 3 A: No. I'm not -- well, let me put it this 4 way. I don't know who I spoke to, so I'm saying, no, because 5 I don't remember speaking to him. 6 But, I did speak to somebody to find out what 7 the position of the City. But, it could have been even in 8 the finance department. I'm not sure where I got the 9 information. 10 Q: When you conduct this intelligence, and 11 I'll go out of this specific example of DFS. When you 12 conduct intelligence gathering, is that the kind of -- you 13 reduce it to writing and put it in a file? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Keep it in your head? 16 A: Sometimes, sometimes I might jot down a 17 note. But, some piece of information, such as this would 18 just be in my head. I wouldn't -- you won't forget that when 19 somebody says to you, we're not leasing, you'd say, that's a 20 big problem. You'd remember. 21 Q: And then you would gather this information 22 from a bureaucratic level, then if necessary, from a 23 political level and advise your client, what the landscape 24 looks like? 25 A: Right.

1 Q: Right, what the challenges are that they 2 have to overcome, for example? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you'd advise your client what in your 5 view, would be the best way to go about achieving their 6 objectives? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: All right. The -- in terms of what 9 lobbyists do, there is a definition that the City of Toronto 10 has and I want to ask you your reaction to it. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: If you go to your second Volume -- 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: -- and this is Tab 33, at 40386. That's 17 the City of Toronto, conflict of interest guidelines, adopted 18 by City Council August 1, 2, 3, 4, 2000. 19 And if you go to 40404. And you see where it 20 says, appendix 2 -- 21 A: What page number again? 22 Q: 40404. 23 A: Oh, 404, okay. Appendix 2, yes. 24 Q: Now, this is conduct respecting lobbyists, 25 and let me read it for our record:

1 "Lobbying is usually defined as direct or 2 indirect efforts to solicit support and 3 influence government decisions on behalf of 4 another party or an organization, often 5 away from public scrutiny." 6 Now, let's just take that first paragraph. 7 Would you agree with that definition of lobbying? 8 A: Yes. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Now, in terms of soliciting support and 13 influence in government decisions, what do you, as a lobbyist 14 do to influence government decisions? 15 A: Well, what you're really doing is putting 16 forward the case on behalf of your client to the appropriate 17 people or bodies. 18 Q: These people would be decision makers or 19 influential staff, key staff? 20 A: Yes, both. 21 Q: And in terms of putting your case forward, 22 could you -- could you tell us generally how it is that you 23 put your case forward to key decision makers or -- or -- 24 well, let's just leave it at that, how you put your case 25 forward to key decision makers.

48
  1                 A:  Well, before you ever meet with that
  2  person, you really want to have your own case ready so you
  3  have to do some research to understand the issues that are
  4  pertinent to your -- to your client and pertinent to your
  5  argument and the next thing is getting him a fair hearing
  6  which would be for one of these people that you've described.
  7                 Q:  A fair hearing?  Does that mean an open
  8  hearing?
  9                 A:  No, that -- that they're willing to
 10  listen.  Some people just don't want to listen and you're
 11  hoping that they're actually listening to your argument and
 12  it will be weighed accordingly.
 13                 Q:  So, when I say an open hearing it is right
 14  what this definition says, often away from public scrutiny? 
 15  This fair hearing that you're talking about would be a or
 16  could be a private hearing?
 17                 A:  It could.  I mean, there's something
 18  insidious in that comment which I didn't say to you earlier
 19  but it's -- I don't care whether it's in the full glare of
 20  headlights.  If they want to hear it, it's an -- it's a --
 21  it's an argument.
 22                 Q:  You say that you don't care whether it's
 23  in the full glare of headlights?
 24                 A:  Some of these meetings, no.  It's --
 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Anyway, it's -- 4 Q: Well, the -- 5 A: It's just -- 6 Q: -- well, the only reason -- 7 A: I'm not opposing that statement, I'm just 8 saying that that happens most of the time and I agree with 9 you. 10 Q: That it's away from -- often away from 11 public scrutiny? 12 A: Right. So -- 13 Q: The only reason I -- I paused when you 14 said you didn't care if it was in the full glare of public 15 headlights was that I'm about to take you to a law suit you 16 commenced against the City in which you objected to the -- 17 the lobbying bylaw. 18 A: Yes and I'm glad you asked that. 19 Q: All right. Now, we'll -- we'll come to 20 that. 21 A: Okay. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Well, in fact, I think we should come to

1 -- go -- go to it right now because it's probably easiest and 2 we'll come back to your website at this -- some -- but I do 3 want to ask you about it. Am I right that Council passed 4 lobbyist disclosure rules or lob -- and a lobbyist disclosure 5 policy in around March of 2001 that affected your business? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that -- those lobbying disclosure 8 rules and lobbying disclosure policy basically required a 9 lobbyist to -- or I'm sorry, a bidder in a -- in a major 10 procurement to disclose lobbyist contacts with people at the 11 City on their behalf, correct? 12 A: Yeah, this -- well, you're talking about 13 the -- the subject matter of the action I brought? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Right. 17 A: But it -- but it asked more specifically 18 to record every date and time and who the person was that you 19 spoke to. 20 Q: All right but you, as -- as I appreciate 21 your legal action, that you did not want to disclose the 22 contact that you as a lobbyist had with people in the City 23 with respect to a procurement and you went to Court, to stop 24 that? 25 A: Well, Mr. Manes, let me explain. I think

1 it's very important and the main things that I do with 2 respect to representing my clients is that they have a level 3 playing field. 4 And when that level playing field doesn't 5 exist and my client is in jeopardy. So, as a result, this 6 particular bylaw had a chilling effect, on the ability of my 7 clients to be able to communicate with decision makers. 8 It didn't have a -- so -- what happened is, 9 the staff would be able to present their position and maybe 10 we don't agree with it and no one would want to talk to my 11 client, because they have to record the time and date, and 12 they were fearful of it. 13 And I -- 14 Q: Okay -- 15 A: -- I will oppose anything at anytime which 16 I think takes away a level playing field. 17 Q: All right. Well let's talk about that, 18 because I know that we here, Commissioner, need to understand 19 why you say that there would not be a level playing field, if 20 you had disclosed the contacts and communications, as a 21 lobbyist that you had, in a procurement matter on behalf of 22 clients. 23 I thought that you had said that you didn't -- 24 didn't matter to you whether the fair hearing that you had, 25 as you put it, was in the glare of public headlights.

1 Are you saying that that is not the case, when 2 it comes to this lobbyist disclosure policy at the City? 3 A: Well, we -- the reason I say, public 4 glare, is because most of the times, when you are submitting 5 on behalf of your clients, is not what people usually think 6 as lobbying, where you meet with somebody down a dark alley. 7 You're really just making a submission to a 8 committee or a body. So I'm saying, do I have a problem with 9 that? No. 10 Q: I'm talking about the fact, that you 11 objected to revealing -- in principle, to revealing your 12 contact with individuals at the City, whether they be 13 comprised of committees or whether they be -- 14 A: Because these people -- 15 Q: -- Councillors or bureaucrats. 16 A: Because these people didn't want to be 17 part of the process. So, what we're trying to do now is tell 18 the staff that they have to record it -- or they do have to 19 record it, so they wouldn't talk to you. 20 And obviously you want public scrutiny, but, 21 at the same time, this chilling effect, was detrimental to my 22 client. And I'm -- or to my potential clients. And I felt 23 -- also you were dealing with the other levels of government 24 which had your registration system, which I have no problem 25 with.

1 And I'm sure Madam Bellamy -- Justice Bellamy, 2 Your Honour, will ask me for my recommendation, I have no 3 problem with the registration system, for a lobbyist at the 4 provincial or federal level. 5 But, they couldn't do this because they need 6 the consent of the Province. So, they were imposing some 7 weird system that actually had a very chilling effect on the 8 ability to put my argument forward. 9 And so it meant I no longer could really talk 10 to anybody. I could certainly do the public presentations 11 and I guess -- I don't know if that answers your question -- 12 Q: Well, here's where I am puzzled. The -- 13 according to the City, as I understand the lobbyist 14 disclosure policy and rules, was that those who were enacted, 15 so that there would be a level playing field, so that people 16 or lobbyists could not appear to or seek preferential 17 treatment on behalf of one (1) bidder, that was not available 18 to other bidders. Isn't that fair? 19 A: Well, but, then you have another problem. 20 How do you get those interest groups who may be only 21 superficially interested, could be the issue over the Island 22 Airport, where they go and see Councillors, they lobby them, 23 they do everything, there's no reporting of their activities. 24 So, again, I didn't see this bylaw dealing 25 fairly. I'm only dealing with fairness. And I'm saying that

1 that bylaw was not fair. 2 Q: Well, in terms of the interest groups that 3 you're talking about, whether it's the Island Airport, or 4 otherwise, that is not the subject matter of the lobbyist 5 disclosure rules, as I understand it, as I understand it the 6 only thing -- 7 A: But -- but it should have been -- 8 Q: -- excuse me -- 9 A: Sorry. 10 Q: -- the only thing that it affects is major 11 procurement contracts, $2 to $2.5 million or more. Or 12 special high profile contracts. 13 Is that -- is that right, first of all, in 14 your -- 15 A: Yes -- 16 Q: -- your understanding? 17 A: -- that's right, you're absolutely right. 18 But the only thing I would say to you is that maybe your 19 procurement for certain -- like, you know, you see in the 20 papers now they're talking about waste and new technology, so 21 assume the City puts out a bid for $2.5 million and you're 22 subject to that. And these people go to staff or whatever 23 and they have to record the conversations, then you've got an 24 interest group that says, we don't want incineration or 25 something like that.

1 And we're going around and we lobby these 2 Councillors who say don't accept the bids, send them back and 3 there's another whole process going on for which no 4 accounting is taking place. 5 Q: That's -- well, let's talk about that 6 process for which no accounting is taking place in the 7 context of procurement and this particular lobbyist 8 disclosure rule enacted by Council in March 2001, that you 9 objected to. 10 In that particular -- in that -- in this 11 particular case, the level playing field that was the object 12 of the -- of the rule, related to the fairness, as you put 13 it, with which all bidders are treated; correct? That is it 14 was -- 15 A: Are you talking about this bylaw? 16 Q: -- just this bylaw in the context of -- of 17 the lobbyist -- 18 A: Yeah, all the bidders who would bid would 19 be subject to the same rules. 20 Q: That's right, and -- and if any of them 21 had a -- a contact with anyone at the City, they had to -- 22 the bidder would have to fill out the form that asks for the 23 contact, the date of the contact, and -- and generally, what 24 that contact was all about; correct? 25 A: Right.

1 Q: And -- and you or your lawsuit objected to 2 that disclosure? 3 A: Yes. For the reasons I gave you. 4 Q: I appreciate that. 5 A: It's not because we didn't want to 6 disclose, it was for the other reasons. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Was it -- just to help 8 me, Mr. Lyons. Did they have to disclose if they spoke with 9 a Councillor as well? 10 THE WITNESS: I think that was the case. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And this -- what's the 16 distinction between the interest groups and the individual 17 bidder? 18 THE WITNESS: Well, the bidders are bidding on 19 a contract, so you've got ABC Company, DEF Company and 20 they're bidding to -- let's take incineration as an example. 21 And it's more than the $2.5 million. So, 22 those particular people who are interested in getting 23 information or whatever this bylaw requires, they have to 24 record those conversations and the person they met. 25 Now, my submission's more what happens when

1 people don't want to talk -- don't want to meet with them, 2 because they don't want their name involved, because then 3 there's so much paranoia around, which does exist, as you're 4 probably aware. 5 But then you've got an interest group who says 6 we don't want that incineration in the City, we're going to 7 fight it, and I know that staff -- this Council who approved 8 it and we're going to go around lobbying all these 9 Councillors and we're going to get them just to refute -- 10 refuse the staff recommendation. 11 And so after all this expense and time and 12 everybody putting their bids forward, some other group's in 13 there with certain Councillors who support them. And I'm not 14 going to get into who and what, because that has no point 15 here. 16 And I'm saying, what do we do about these 17 groups, like I'm always very puzzled how much influence the 18 City of Toronto is by interest groups. 19 And it's -- I don't see it -- I know people 20 will say you see that at other levels of Government. I've 21 never seen the amount of -- of -- of strength that they seem 22 to have in dealing with -- with issues at the City of 23 Toronto. 24 And I think to a large extent the City seems 25 to be guided by interest groups, as opposed to business

1 interests and that's just a comment. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 5 Q: Are you saying that this lobbyist 6 disclosure policy should have been more broader, more 7 comprehensive and gone beyond procurement to any or defined 8 issues that Council was voting on, such as a political issue 9 like incineration? 10 A: Well, if you're going to get into it, I 11 think, frankly, registration is a better answer, because 12 that's what they're doing at all levels. 13 I think it's wrong to have a -- a more 14 draconian bylaw than you do at another level. I just think 15 all three (3) levels of Government should speak the same way. 16 But if you're going to do it, do it properly. 17 Q: And do -- do it properly, meaning that -- 18 A: You'd better take into consideration 19 everybody that can influence a decision. And lobbyists may 20 be lobbyists in the terms of somebody hired to represent a 21 company, but you certainly do have other interest groups who 22 have more power than lobbyists, because they control votes, 23 or workers or whatever they provide to these -- these 24 decision makers, that's of real concern to me, or to my 25 clients, not to me, but to my clients.

1 Q: So, you're saying that in certain -- on 2 certain issues, like incineration that the -- the interest 3 groups at the City of Toronto have more power than the 4 clients for whom you lobby? 5 A: That would be my -- not that particular 6 issues, that's just my general opinion. 7 Q: All right, but in terms -- in terms of 8 that -- 9 A: Well, you remember the Adams Mine as an 10 example, look how strong the interest groups were there, did 11 that bylaw ever prohibit those interest groups, or the -- not 12 the bylaw the proposal to do -- 13 Q: Well, if -- 14 A: -- to do the Adams Mine. I mean I'm just 15 giving you another example. 16 Q: Right, just assuming that -- that you're 17 right, and there is an uneven playing field -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: -- and what you're saying is that 20 lobbyists registration or registry, and if it defines, and to 21 include interest groups is there to make it -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- an even playing field. 24 A: I agree with the idea of -- well, I've 25 said that I guess so --

1 Q: All right. 2 A: -- I'm just repeating myself. 3 Q: And that would -- 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And just so you know, Mr. 5 -- I don't mind and this is actually helpful to me, so if you 6 have something that you can help me with on this, as you know 7 at the end, I will be asking you if you -- 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm just -- 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- but if it comes -- 10 THE WITNESS: -- giving you -- 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- at this stage, as 12 opposed to the end, I'm happy to hear it at any time. 13 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm giving you a flavour 14 of what exists out there. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. 16 THE WITNESS: And I -- you know, at the time 17 all the lobbyists agreed with me, but no one wanted to spend 18 any money on the lawsuit, so I was stuck myself taking this, 19 and -- and I -- anyway, that's what happened. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 22 Q: Right. If the object of registration is 23 to ensure a level playing field, and you agree that that is 24 the -- the -- what the object should be to achieve, that is a 25 level playing field between lobbyists and interest groups;

1 correct? 2 A: Right. 3 MR. TODD WHITE: Your Honour, I'm going to 4 object at -- at the relevance of this. It's fine at the end 5 of the day to ask Mr. Lyons for his opinion, if he so chooses 6 to give one, but I don't see how being -- you know, debating 7 the issue or being cross-examined on the issue is -- is 8 really fair, in the circumstances, so -- and it's certainly 9 going to take a lot of time if we allow Mr. Manes to debate 10 the issues. That's what it seems to me that it's turning 11 into. 12 And it may well be at the end of the day that 13 Mr. Lyons is going to be asked about his opinion and his 14 view, but I don't see how that's really relevant to the Terms 15 of Reference that we have, that they relate to Mr. Lyons. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, it's helpful to me, 17 actually, in terms of what I'm going to have to do 18 eventually, and I could be wrong. But I got the impression 19 from what Mr. Lyons said, that he actually wanted to talk 20 about the lawsuit in any event. 21 But even if he doesn't, and I don't want to 22 put Mr. Lyons on the spot of having to say anything about 23 this, but it is actually helpful to me, because at the end of 24 the day if you look at my Terms of Reference, I do have to 25 make some recommendations in this area, okay.

1 MR. TODD WHITE: I understand that, but he's 2 now being cross-examined on it. And I think that's unfair. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Oh gosh, I think that's 4 quite unfair, Mr. White. There's nothing in what I heard Mr. 5 Manes say, that even sounded remotely like a cross- 6 examination. And in fairness, even if it was, which I say it 7 wasn't, he's entitled to under our rules, in any event. 8 But, Mr. Lyons, if you have any difficulty 9 with the questions, you just let me -- 10 THE WITNESS: No, the only comment I was going 11 to make, and I certainly have -- I'm not -- I'm only sitting 12 here as a witness, is that I've said what I've had to say -- 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes. 14 THE WITNESS: -- I've had my say. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. 16 MR. RONALD MANES: All right. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 19 Q: What I -- I don't understand is if you 20 agree that there should be a level playing field when it 21 comes to -- as between lobbyist and interest groups, where is 22 the -- isn't that equally as desirable in the lobbyist 23 disclosure rules in respect to procurement that there be a 24 level playing field amongst all bidders? 25 A: You're talking about the present bylaw?

1 Q: Yes. 2 A: Well, I told you my thoughts about that. 3 I really have nothing more to add. 4 Q: Well, I guess that -- what I -- I just 5 don't understand and want you to help me with, why is it an 6 unlevel playing field when all bidders equally have to 7 disclose all contacts they have with -- with City employees 8 or Councillors? 9 A: Well, I gave -- I said it all already. I 10 told you there was a chilling effect that you have to 11 consider and that's why I suspect the other levels did their 12 registration system. I -- I don't really know Mr. Manes. 13 This is my sense of it. I can just tell you want the result 14 is and the other part is what we -- I mentioned, the special 15 interest groups. There's no regulation of them in this and 16 since -- 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: M -- 18 THE WITNESS: -- a lot of issues are so -- 19 sorry. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: No, go ahead. Go ahead. 21 I'll ask after. 22 THE WITNESS: -- are social interest issues. 23 I -- I mean, I can't really help you more than that. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Did you find it had a 25 chilling effect with respect to the staff of the City?

1 THE WITNESS: Yes. I mean, I've heard that 2 from them. They -- they've said to me, you know, well don't 3 record -- you know, they -- I've heard that said by other 4 people. They don't even want it recorded. You know, and the 5 clash is well, you have to record it so then they don't 6 really want to talk to you. 7 So it's -- no, there hasn't been many examples 8 because this is only a $2.5 million procurement bid. So 9 there'd be an answer -- Council probably hasn't existed more 10 than what? A couple of times, I think. I don't know. 11 Nobody's from the City here, but -- 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 14 Q: If it existed at the time of the 1999 15 lease -- City of Toronto leasing RFQ, then all of the bidders 16 would have been required to disclose all the contacts they 17 had with Councillors and -- and -- 18 A: That's true. 19 Q: -- key decision makers? Correct? 20 A: That's true. That's true. 21 Q: Now, you had said that other lobbyists 22 supported you in this but you were the only one that went 23 forward and added -- well, went forward with the law suit? 24 A: Yeah, but none of them will admit that. 25 Q: Oh.

1 A: I'm just telling you what I gleaned in 2 phone calls but d -- you know, they're always after you al 3 font. 4 Q: I appreciate that. If you can go to Tab 5 22, I want you to -- I want to talk about one of these 6 Councillors -- one of these lobbyists. Volume 2. 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: Tab 22. This is a Toronto Star article 9 dated Wednesday, June 6th, 2001. Mr. Jack Lakey, City Hall 10 Bureau -- 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: -- and this has -- this is an interview 13 with you and Bruce Davis, another lobbyist, with respect to 14 the -- the lobbyist disclosure rules. Are you -- do you 15 recall this -- this article? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. Now, in that article you, at 18 the end of the first page, you say and I quote: 19 "'It's an unlevel playing field,' Lyons, a 20 lawyer, said yesterday. 'If you represent 21 the public, you don't have the right to 22 present your views. You have to register, 23 record every conversation, every meeting.'" 24 And then you go on to say at the next 25 paragraph:

66
  1                   "So there's really a barrier to speaking to
  2                   these people.  To me freedom of expression
  3                   is one of our charter rights."
  4                 And then you go on to say something about the
  5  -- the --
  6                 A:  Registration.
  7                 Q:  -- the pop -- the registration power.
  8                   "I'm saying you don't have the power to do
  9                   it.  You've never been able to have a
 10                   registration system and now you're trying
 11                   to do something even more draconian and
 12                   heavy-handed than a registry system."
 13                 Those are all --
 14                 A:  That's true.
 15                 Q:  -- accurate quotes?  All right.  If you
 16  can go back to the first quote.  When you say it's an unlevel
 17  playing field, you go on to say:
 18                   "If you represent the public, you don't
 19                   have the right to present your view.  You
 20                   have to register, record every
 21                   conversation, every meeting."
 22                 First of all, as a lobbyist do you represent
 23  the public, or do you represent private sector?
 24                 A:  Well, let me explain --
 25                 Q:  With the public --

1 A: -- let me explain something. You actually 2 brought up a good point. 3 What I also I wanted to say and since the 4 Commissioner is taking -- do I call you the Commissioner or 5 do I call you -- 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, that's what they 7 call me here. 8 THE WITNESS: Your Holiness or -- 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm not going to touch 10 that one (1). 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. They haven't had one (1) 12 yet, a female one (1) yet? 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: A Commissioner? 14 THE WITNESS: A pope -- a female pope. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, I think there was 16 Pope Joan a very long, long time ago. 17 THE WITNESS: Anyway, I'm glad you asked this 18 question, because the other issue was, is that the staff, and 19 that's why I mean the public, if you're not able to 20 communicate with certain people, Councillors or staff, and 21 the point of view that you want to present, whether for your 22 bidder, but, you wouldn't be allowed to do it, because of 23 this chilling effect. 24 But, conversely the staff can parade into 25 Councillor's office, as an example, lobby them on A, B or C,

1 bidder, you've seen some of those issues in the newspaper, 2 and the bidder himself or herself, itself, doesn't have that 3 ability. 4 So, there's another flaw in that system. So, 5 are you going to make each staff member record their 6 conversation when they're a staff person? Maybe that's what 7 you really have to do to be fair. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 10 Q: So, your concern is that, in effect, staff 11 may be lobbying against your client? 12 A: Oh, I've had that happen. 13 Q: And you don't have a chance, on behalf of 14 your client, to respond since that lobbying is done in 15 secret? 16 A: Sure, yes. 17 Q: But, would you objected to, of course, 18 here is that if the staff can lobby in secret, then you ought 19 to be able to lobby in secret, are we at the bottom line 20 here? 21 A: Well, what's sauce for the goose is sauce 22 for the gander. 23 Q: All right. We're at the bottom line. Let 24 me take you to the next page. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes, go ahead. 4 Q: Just in respect to other lobbyists, since 5 you brought this up, this next paragraph says the following, 6 in respect to Mr. Bruce Davis, and he's a lobbyist? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Urban Intelligence? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Influential lobbying firm? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: "Not all lobbyists have a problem with 13 the rules. Bruce Davis, the main lobbyist 14 at City Hall after Lyons, said he help 15 craft the rules and has no problem working 16 within them. Quote, 'We fully support the 17 lobbyist disclosure rules', Davis said. 18 Quote, 'I spoke in favour of it last year. 19 I appeared before (City Council's 20 Administrative Committee) last year and 21 said, I thought it was appropriate. I mean 22 what's the problem. So, you have to fill 23 out a form. It doesn't prevent you from 24 doing a job.'." 25 Take that last paragraph. What's the problem,

1 Mr. Lyons, it doesn't prevent you from doing your job, just 2 to fill out that form and disclose your contacts? 3 A: So the rhetorical question and I'm not 4 trying to be cute here. Do you really believe everything you 5 see written in a newspaper? 6 I have spoken to Mr. Davis about this issue 7 and I'm not going to say anything further. 8 Q: Well, it is true, is it not that Mr. 9 Davis, did speak in favour of the lobbyist disclosure rules 10 last year, in an appearance before the City Council's 11 Administrative Committee? 12 A: I'm just going to refer you -- yes -- 13 Q: That's true? 14 A: True -- can I refer you to the last 15 sentence? 16 "It doesn't prevent you from doing your 17 job." 18 You can -- that can be interpreted many ways. 19 That's all I have to say. 20 Q: In any event, this is one (1) lobbyist -- 21 A: Right -- 22 Q: -- that was not supportive of your 23 lawsuit? 24 A: Right. Well, I won't answer that -- I 25 don't agree with that.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes, is this a good 2 time for our break? 3 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Just so you know, Mr. 8 Lyons, I'm not sure if anyone has told you this, but, very 9 early on I directed the media not to speak to witnesses while 10 they are testifying. 11 They could speak to you after, if you want, 12 but -- 13 THE WITNESS: Yes -- 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- not during the time 15 that you're testifying. 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you. 17 All right. Thank you. 18 REGISTRAR: Order. The Inquiry will recess 19 until 10 to 12:00. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 11:30 a.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 11:50 a.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: The Inquiry will resume, 25 please be seated.

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr. Manes...? 4 MR. RONALD MANES: Thank you, Commissioner. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 7 Q: Mr. Lyons, could you go to Volume 2 -- 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: -- Volume 1, sorry, that's the thick one. 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: And to Tab 25, which is 52353. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now, this is just the -- the facing sheet 16 of your -- of your -- are you there? 17 A: Right. 18 Q: This is the -- the facing sheet of your -- 19 your lawsuit, entitled Application Records. So, it's your 20 application to the Court, as I recall, to quash, as they call 21 it, or to eliminate the City of Toronto lobbyists -- lobbying 22 policy; correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then if you go to 26, Tab 26. 25 A: Hmm hmm.

1 Q: That's an index at 52355, of the 2 Proceedings, and it's -- it simply consists of the notice and 3 what the grounds are for seeking to eliminate the -- the 4 policy, and your affidavit in support of that; do you see 5 that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. Now, if you go to -- this is 8 commenced at -- if you see 52357, March the 4th, 2001. So, 9 this was -- this policy was enacted, in effect, in March and 10 you bring this -- this application to Court in May of 2001. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And then if you go to page 3. 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And that is -- I should give you the 15 Begdoc number and not refer to these pages, 52358, Mr. Lyons? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now, this is the reasons you're making 18 this application, and it goes into the grounds for the 19 application; do you see that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: The -- and it starts as number 1: 22 "The applicant is a barrister, solicitor 23 and lobbyist, he deals with the City and 24 its representatives." 25 Do you see that?

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, Mr. Manes, I 2 don't see it, what page are you at? 3 MR. RONALD MANES: 52358, Commissioner. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, I'm there. 5 MR. RONALD MANES: And right at the bottom, 6 the grounds for the -- 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Oh, at the bottom. 8 MR. RONALD MANES: -- application. 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Thanks. Yes. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 12 Q: Now, then you bring this application as 13 both of you -- as your status as a barrister and solicitor 14 and as a lobbyist? 15 A: That's what my counsel put, yes. 16 Q: Well, all right, we'll -- we'll go to that 17 in a second. If you go to 52366. 18 A: 66, right. Hmm hmm. 19 Q: This says: 20 "The resolution purports to regulate the 21 conduct of barristers and solicitors, over 22 which the City has no authority." 23 Paragraph 27. 24 So, I take it what -- what you're saying is 25 that according to what your solicitor put down here, your

1 status as a barrister and solicitor was relevant to the 2 extent that the resolution tried to regulate your conduct as 3 a -- as a lawyer, and the City had no authority over that, 4 that's what the -- at least the lawyer put down there? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. Now, then would you go to your 7 -- your affidavit -- 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: -- and that is 52369. 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: And -- and this affidavit was sworn by you 12 May the 3rd, 2001, do you see that right under affidavit of 13 Jeffrey Lyons? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Right, you also by the way, just if you 16 want to double check, that's also at 52372. 17 A: Yes. Yes. 18 Q: All right, so -- and it says: 19 "I, Jeffrey S. Lyons QC, of the City of 20 Toronto, Make oath and say as follows:" 21 And there's paragraph 1: 22 "I am a barrister and solicitor, having 23 practised law in the Province of Ontario 24 since on or about 1966. In my capacity as 25 such, from time to time I also act as a

1 lobbyist on behalf of clients and deal 2 directly with the City of Toronto." 3 And then you go on to the next paragraph and 4 say: 5 "Accordingly, I have an interest in City of 6 Toronto Bylaw 462000." 7 And then go into the policy dealing with 8 lobbying activities. 9 Now, my question to you is this, in this 10 application that you made to the Court, you say that in your 11 capacity as a barrister and solicitor you also act as a 12 lobbyist. And I'm wondering whether that is accurate? Do 13 you act in your capacity as a barrister and solicitor, do you 14 act as a lobbyist in your capacity as a barrister and 15 solicitor, because I thought you said that where DFS was 16 concerned, for example, you were not and haven't -- you were 17 not acting as a barrister and solicitor, and haven't 18 practised law since around 1995? 19 A: Well, to answer your question is that I 20 remember at the time we did this, I'm -- I'm still a 21 barrister and solicitor, and what he said, we might as well 22 put that in too, because obviously how can they regulate 23 lawyers, as an example. 24 But he actually says here: 25 "In my capacity from time to time, I also

1 act as a lobbyist on behalf of clients and 2 deal directly with the City of Toronto." 3 Which is really what I was at the time. 4 Q: Well, as I understand it, there's nothing 5 in the bylaw, nothing in the City's policy dealing with 6 lobbying activity that states anything about regulating 7 lawyers; am I right in that? 8 A: No, but I think -- 9 Q: I'm sorry, am I right -- 10 A: -- I'll take -- 11 Q: -- am I right in that? 12 A: -- you're right in saying it's -- I can't 13 recall, but I'll take your word. 14 Q: All right. And then you were going to say 15 something, Mr. Lyons? 16 A: Now, I can't remember what I was going to 17 say, so -- 18 Q: Well -- 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: He said there was nothing 20 in the bylaw that says anything about regulating lawyers, and 21 that was the last question that he had had. And before that 22 you were talking about from time to time -- 23 THE WITNESS: I think this was my counsel 24 thought that it was a good idea to put in I was a barrister 25 and solicitor, just to show that this bylaw wasn't perfect,

1 and how it would deal with lawyers. So, I said fine. But I 2 -- my dealings were as a lobbyist, I think that's what he's 3 saying there. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 6 Q: Well, just the way it was worded, in my 7 capacity as such from time to time, when he had said in your 8 capacity as such, that's as a barrister and solicitor, from 9 time to time I also act as a lobbyist, what you're saying 10 here is you, when you're acting as a lobbyist, you're acting 11 as a lobbyist and not as a -- as a lawyer. 12 A: Right. 13 Q: Right. All right and your interest in 14 this bylaw and the regulation of lobbyist activities was as a 15 lobbyist, not as a lawyer? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: All right. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: The -- the judge heard all of the 22 submissions by your lawyer and submissions by the City's 23 lawyers and ultimately rendered a decision? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right and now, we have that decision

1 and that is at Volume 1 at Tab 30. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Now -- 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Can I have the Begdoc 5 number, please. 6 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes, 52513, Commissioner. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 8 MR. RONALD MANES: And that's a decision of 9 Judge Coo, C-O-O. 10 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 13 Q: Now, Judge Coo dismissed your application 14 and awarded costs against you were in favour of the City? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: All right and that's dated October 2nd, 17 2001. You see that at 2514 at the bottom left hand corner of 18 the page. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Did you say December? 20 MR. RONALD MANES: October 2nd -- 21 THE WITNESS: 2nd. 22 MR. RONALD MANES: -- 2001. 23 THE WITNESS: -- 2001. That's correct. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES:

1 Q: It maybe be helpful to the -- to the 2 Commission and to understanding your position and the -- at 3 least the judge's response in relation to understanding this 4 bylaw and procurement procedures as it affects lobbyists. 5 Now, this is the first paragraph and it -- the 6 judge talks about the contractual disclosure requirement on 7 bidders for $2 to $2.5 million and larger contracts. He goes 8 on to talk about the policy has been in -- been in place 9 pursuant to the bylaw. Quote: 10 "To establish procedures and authorities 11 for the procurement of goods and services." 12 And then goes on to say this: 13 "What is required is that bidders disclose 14 the fact of any representations made by or 15 on their behalf which promote the bids or 16 opposes those of another to City staff or 17 City Councillors. It is not required by 18 the form in use or by the language of the 19 policy that there be revelations of the 20 content of the representations but just 21 that it or they occurred. Such 22 representations are not limited or in any 23 way controlled but they must be reported or 24 the bidder risks losing the right to bid in 25 the future for a period of one (1) year

1 from the time of non-disclosure. In my 2 view, what might be done in the future by 3 way of business resolution or practice is 4 not an issue." 5 Now, let's just stay with that paragraph for a 6 moment. You accept the fact, I take it, that all you were 7 required to do as a lobbyist is to disclose the fact of the 8 contact -- contact and not the actual representations or the 9 content of the representations that were made? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: In other words, what this judge is saying 12 is that all you have to say -- disclose as a lobbyist is that 13 -- or the bidder has to disclose is that my lobbyist made a 14 contact with this particular person on this particular date? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, am I right in saying that your 17 position was that that isn't fair or a level playing field, 18 because the City staff doesn't have to do the same thing? 19 A: That was one (1) of the reasons. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Does the fact that City staff represents 24 the public, as opposed to the lobbyist who represents private 25 interests affect your conclusion as to who has the

82
  1  responsibility to disclose contacts with City employees or
  2  Councillors?
  3                 A:  Can you ask that question again?  I'm
  4  sorry.
  5                 Q:  Do you accept that City staff, are hired
  6  to and do represent the public interest?
  7                 A:  Yes, absolutely, they're supposed to do.
  8                 Q:  All right.  And that lobbyists represent
  9  private interests, that don't necessarily have to coincide
 10  with public interest?
 11                 A:  That's true.
 12                 Q:  And that when you as a lobbyist go to the
 13  City, or City staff, you go there to advance your clients'
 14  interests?
 15                 A:  Yes.
 16                 Q:  All right.  And when the City staff makes
 17  contact with other City staff or Councillors, presumably they
 18  represent the public's interest?
 19                 A:  In a perfect world, yes.
 20                 Q:  And how is this world that City staff at
 21  City of Toronto, is living in not a perfect world, in that
 22  regard?
 23                 A:  Well, there's also influences over staff. 
 24  It could be of any form, their view of the issue, their view
 25  of the company, so that you might find that they're not

83
  1  objective.
  2                 And I guess what you're concerned is to make
  3  sure that they're totally objective and what you want is to
  4  make sure that the decision maker has all the information
  5  available to him.
  6                 So, if they're not objective, then they have
  7  the information that hopefully will level the playing field.
  8                 Q:  The -- in terms of being objective, do you
  9  need feel that approaches by lobbyists in secret to influence
 10  a particular City staff, may affect their objectivity or at
 11  least the perception of their objectivity?
 12                 A:  Well, you say secret, but, in any event,
 13  putting aside that word, I find sometimes they find it very
 14  helpful, that's my experience.
 15                 Q:  Helpful in terms of the information which
 16  you communicate?
 17                 A:  Right.
 18                 Q:  But, the point here, is not whether it's
 19  helpful to them, it's simply the matter of disclosing that
 20  you've made such contact, and that's what you object to and
 21  what I am asking you, is whether that contact, not in the
 22  glare of public lights, but, in fact, in private may actually
 23  or perceptively affect a particular staff or Councillor's
 24  independence?
 25                 A:  Well, if that's the bylaw, I can live with

1 that. The question is, is it fair? 2 Q: Well, I appreciate that, then I guess the 3 answer is the same, that the fact of having to disclose this 4 contact is unfair, because the City staff doesn't have to 5 disclose their contact with one (1) another or with 6 Councillors? 7 A: And the special interest groups in certain 8 issues and then the other question is, whether the staff want 9 to be under the light of talking to you, if they have to 10 record it. 11 Q: So, are you saying that the, chilling 12 effect, you're talking about is that the staff will be less 13 likely to speak with you, if the fact of that contact has to 14 be reported by the lobbyist? 15 A: Right. And a person like myself, who obey 16 the bylaw and do that, others may not and so I'm concerned 17 about that. 18 Q: I see. If you go to the next page, and 19 that is 52514, the Judge, in this paragraph, and I'll 20 paraphrase, it has some Latin -- French in it, but I'll 21 paraphrase it. I do not believe that there is any sign of 22 bad faith or any attempt to do something improper outside the 23 scope of routine business activities, controlled as part of a 24 sensible, relevant and apposite guidelines or policy. 25 Now, I take it you disagree with that, insofar

1 as you don't think it's fair that this policy is not 2 sensible? 3 A: I'm not -- 4 MR. TODD WHITE: Your Honour, I think it's 5 unfair to have a witness comment on a judgment. It's like 6 commenting on law. I think it's inappropriate. 7 MR. RONALD MANES: It's -- 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: How is Mr. Lyons supposed 9 to comment on that, Mr. Manes? 10 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, if -- if Mr. Lyons, 11 Commissioner, thinks that it is not sensible for -- for the 12 reasons that he's given, I've just asked him whether he 13 agreed or disagreed with that? 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, I guess the 15 difficulty is when you put to him a whole paragraph of a 16 Judge's endorsement, it puts him in a difficult position of 17 having to say publicly whether he agrees or disagrees with 18 the Judge. 19 In this case presumably he disagrees, given 20 that he lost the application before the Judge. But I wonder 21 if there's a way that you can still get what it is that 22 you're trying to get, without putting Mr. Lyons in the 23 position of having to respond and address it in that 24 particular way. 25 MR. RONALD MANES: All right.

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 4 Q: You said before that you were concerned 5 about the chilling effect that this would have on the 6 lobbyist's ability to deal with staff, that is staff would be 7 unwilling to talk if the -- if the fact of the contract were 8 -- had to be reported; correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Is it your position and was it your 14 position before this Judge, through your lawyer, that as a 15 result of that chilling effect, contacts would not occur? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And now the Judge rejects that in 18 paragraph 6, and my question to you is that have you in fact 19 found that to be the case, that City staff are turning away 20 lobbyists and -- and you, in particular, because of this 21 policy? That is they won't talk to you? 22 A: I can't recall -- I don't recall if I've 23 been involved since, but that comments been made to me. But 24 more than once. 25 Q: By other lobbyists is it?

1 A: By other -- by lobbyists and staff. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MR. RONALD MANES: If I just might have a 6 moment, Commissioner. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 11 Q: In terms of your business, sir, if you can 12 just turn to Tab 22 of Volume 2. 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Hmm hmm, two (2) did you say? 18 Q: Yes, at Tab 2 -- I mean Volume 2, Mr. 19 Lyons, at Tab 22. 20 A: Oh, Tab 22? 21 Q: Yes. That's that Lakey article again, 22 June 6th, 2001 and the interview about the -- about your 23 lawsuit. 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: And if you just go about seven paragraphs

1 down -- paragraph down where it says, he says -- 2 A: Unlevel playing fields, you mean? 3 Q: No. 4 A: Page 2? 5 Q: Page 2. Paragraph 7. 6 A: One (1) -- two (2) -- three (3) -- he says 7 -- yeah. 8 Q: Let me just read it to you: 9 "He says the new rules haven't had any 10 major effect on his business, quote, 'But 11 the point is it's there. I feel very 12 strongly that you do what you have to do to 13 protect you and your client's interest.'" 14 First of all, is that quote accurate? 15 A: Well, it hadn't had any major effect 16 because I wasn't doing anything. It was a procurement bylaw 17 so at that point it wasn't affecting my clients. 18 Q: And are you saying now that it -- it is 19 affecting your clients? 20 A: Well, yes. Not -- well, let me explain 21 it. I haven't had a situation but at that time, of course, I 22 wasn't aware how it was affecting because it was just 23 implemented but since then I've learned some more 24 information. 25 Q: I was just talking about you. I take it

1 your answer is that you -- you haven't had a situation? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: All right and again, we're talking about 4 the con -- in the context of procurement, correct? 5 A: That's what it's for, I think. 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I didn't -- Mr. Manes, 7 you're sort of away from the microphone. I didn't hear your 8 last question. 9 MR. RONALD MANES: And again, we're talking 10 about the con -- in the context of procurement. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right. Okay. 12 MR. RONALD MANES: Correct. 13 THE WITNESS: That's right. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 18 Q: If we can just go back, sir, I wanted to 19 just finish off something about your -- your website and that 20 would be Tab 2, Number 1. I'm sorry, Volume 2, Number 1 -- 21 Tab 1. 22 A: Yes. 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Volume 2, Tab 1? 24 THE WITNESS: Hmm hmm. 25 MR. RONALD MANES: Volume 2, Tab 1.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 6 Q: At the -- at the Lyons Group, there is 7 also listed Mr. Carman McClelland. This is at five (5) pages 8 in. 9 A: Right. 10 Q: It goes on to give Mr. McClelland's 11 background and that he was elected Liberal member in the 12 provincial parliament for the riding of Brampton in 1987, et 13 cetera and then it goes on to say: 14 "Since 1950 -- 1995, Carman has been 15 practising law based in Brampton, Ontario 16 and has as a large part of his practice 17 provided government relation services to a 18 large provincial association representing 19 over eleven thousand (11,000) franchise 20 owners." 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Eleven hundred 22 (1,100). 23 MR. RONALD MANES: 24 "-- eleven hundred (1,100) franchise owners 25 employing over fifty-five thousand (55,000)

1 individuals, as well as medium and small 2 sized businesses." 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 5 Q: Now, I just want to ask you just a few 6 questions about your relationship with Mr. McClelland. Is 7 Mr. McClelland full time with the Lyons Group? 8 A: No. 9 Q: So he's just -- he carries on his own law 10 practice and he's just associated with you? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: All right. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And if you then go to the seventh page 17 where it talks about Lyons Group and the team. 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: In terms of that -- all of the people 20 listed there, the three (3) people listed there, they're in 21 -- they're engaged exclusively in lobbying activities and 22 supporting you in that regard as opposed to any legal 23 activities or any law activities? 24 A: None of them have any background in law. 25 Q: Right. Well, they -- I -- I'm saying that

1 they support you in -- in your lobbying activities? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: In 1999 -- 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Can I just ask a 9 question? 10 Mr. Lyons, when it says, that they are all 11 managers, is that the title they have? Or do they have 12 people reporting to them? 13 THE WITNESS: That's their title. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Thank you. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 17 Q: In 1999, when you represented MFP or Dell 18 or DFS, you were the only lobbyist, I take it, in your firm? 19 A: Well, you've -- Ms. Cross, as you know, 20 worked for me at that time. She would do also the same, you 21 know, some of that activity. 22 Q: Would you consider her a lobbyist or just 23 a member of your staff really? 24 A: Well, she was sometimes advocating. 25 Q: All right. Did you promote Ms. Cross as a

1 lobbyist, as an advocator? 2 A: Well she sometimes would be there with the 3 client making some representation. She did it less than the 4 present person I have, but, she did some of it. 5 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: I just -- I wonder how it was that she 10 gained the experience necessary to be a lobbyist, even in 11 that limited sense? Did you feel she had that experience? 12 A: Well, I mean she worked for some -- for a 13 MP at Queen's Park, and then she started with me and you 14 know, she me, what two (2) years, something like that? 15 Q: Yes, quite right. 16 A: And so she gained experience as she went 17 for meetings with me and then she started doing some on her 18 own. I like my staff to take responsibility it makes it less 19 arduous for me and -- if they're capable, I let them do it. 20 Q: All right. We were talking before, in 21 terms of your background, as a lawyer and lobbyist, we were 22 talking about your experience as a fundraiser. 23 I'd like to asking you about fundraising in 24 the context of what lobbyist do. You already answered that 25 you do fundraising as part of your lobbying activities?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Now, in terms of that, I suggest to you 3 there are two (2) major reasons for that and tell me if I'm 4 right or wrong. Number one (1) there's political reasons 5 that you and or your clients have a political point of view, 6 and you have every right to exercise it and bring that to 7 bear on candidates for Council, for example, would that be 8 right? 9 A: To support them because of their views? 10 Q: To support any Councillor that you choose, 11 or your client chooses to support, on the basis of their 12 political views? That would be one (1) reason for 13 fundraising. 14 A: That would be one (1) reason. 15 Q: All right. And the other reason would be 16 -- well let me go back to that reason. Something you said to 17 the newspapers. 18 If you can go back to -- if you can go to 19 Volume 2, at Tab 20. 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: At page -- this is a Toronto Star article 25 dated November 13th, 2000, written by Bruce DeMara --

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And remember he had the interview with you 3 and he quotes you in this article? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: On page number one (1) about five (5) -- 6 fifth paragraph down. 7 "...'I have no hesitation in saying, I 8 support a number of the Councillors, and 9 I'm happy to give them advice on how to run 10 their campaigns, and I certainly do raise 11 money for some Councillors", said Jeff 12 Lyons, the eminence grise of City Hall 13 Lobbyists." 14 You have no problem with that quote? 15 A: I have no problem with that quote. 16 Q: All right, and then the -- if you go to 17 paragraph -- or go to the next page, paragraph 3. And you're 18 talking about the upcoming election, November 2000. And you 19 say, third paragraph down: 20 "It woke me up and I've been far more 21 involved in the last couple of weeks, 22 trying to help some of these candidates, 23 because I can see there's going to be 24 tyranny of the left, if we don't." 25 Correct?

1 A: But that was in comment -- in -- in 2 reaction to the Adams Mine debate, which fractionalized the 3 Council, and what I saw at that point was a grouping into 4 sort of left wing and right wing members of Council. And I 5 was concerned that what we had tried to build was -- I mean 6 what the Mayor had tried to build and others, was to build a 7 working group of Councillors, and it wasn't going to happen. 8 So, I was concerned that we might end up 9 having this tyranny of the left, as I supposed it's said 10 there. 11 Q: And -- and you have every right to -- to 12 make political donations, and so do your -- your clients in 13 relation to whatever political beliefs they -- they have, 14 whether they believe in the -- they -- they have a certain 15 belief about the left wing or the right wing, they have every 16 right to do that, and you have every right to fundraise for 17 that? 18 A: But it's not necessarily politically 19 driven, I like -- anyway. 20 Q: All right. It's not politically driven, 21 it's -- it's on that -- just that specific issue that you're 22 reacting, the Adams Mine? 23 A: Yes. I mean generally I like Councillors 24 who just have common sense, who are balanced in their 25 thinking.

1 Q: And it was the -- the left wing at City 2 Council, that you did not believe was exercising common 3 sense? 4 A: Not at that point -- not the way that 5 issue was conducted. 6 Q: Who was the lobbyist on the other -- on -- 7 on the other side of the -- the Adams Mine -- 8 A: That's a good question, all the interest 9 groups. 10 Q: Well were there any lobbyists representing 11 their interests? 12 A: Oh, yeah, they have lobbyists, but you 13 know what, I don't even know who they are, they're not -- 14 their -- their names are in the paper in these articles, they 15 seem to run these groups, but they're interest group 16 representatives. 17 Q: And you represented whom, in terms of 18 that -- 19 A: One (1) of the -- one (1) part of the 20 Adams Mine Consortium, one (1) part of that group. 21 Q: You -- you -- that's a client, not an 22 interest group? 23 A: No, that was a client. 24 Q: I see. All right. In any event, the -- 25 that is the political views, and whatever they might be is

1 perfectly legitimate in terms of fundraising? 2 A: Oh, yes. 3 Q: All right. And there are -- there's 4 fundraising that relates to promoting a client's interests, 5 commercial interests at City Hall; correct? Such as 6 developers? 7 A: Yeah, but -- yes, it could be, but I don't 8 represent any developers at this point. 9 Q: Well -- 10 A: I mean I haven't recently anyway, very 11 rarely. 12 Q: I'm just taking an example of a particular 13 group that has commercial interests in having a lobbyist 14 lobby on their behalf at the City? 15 A: That could be. 16 Q: All right. If you go back to Tab number 17 -- Tab 1, it's the thick volume, and that article 15, Tab 15, 18 that's the -- we'll call it -- I mean nothing by this, but 19 we'll call it the Lyons King article. 20 A: What -- 21 Q: By Mr. Livesey. 22 A: -- what tab is that? 23 Q: That's Tab 15. 24 A: Oh, 15, yes. 25 Q: And if you go to 43063.

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: This at the top of the page -- this says, 3 right at the first sentence: 4 "He also raised money for City Councillors 5 and mayors. He might approach developers 6 and ask them to give contributions to 7 certain municipal politicians. Asked at 8 that same hearing about why developers 9 donate money, Lyons said, 'They want to 10 make sure that they have --" 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: They would want to make 12 sure. 13 MR. RONALD MANES: 14 "-- they would want to make sure that they 15 have the support of a Councillor if they 16 were doing a zoning application or variance 17 application.'" 18 THE WITNESS: That's right. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 21 Q: All right. Now, just in -- in terms of 22 those kinds of -- of -- that kind of fundraising, do you see 23 that as appropriate in the sense that your clients, or you, 24 are donating money to advance a commercial interest, get a 25 Councillor's support if they were doing a zoning application

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1 or a variance application, for example? Do you find anything 2 troublesome about that? 3 A: Well -- 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Since, you know, it's -- it's a fact that 8 I was reporting. It exists. It's just a fact of life it 9 exists. 10 Q: All right. I -- I -- I'm looking here for 11 your -- your help, Mr. Lyons, whether you as a lawyer for 12 thirty-seven (37) years but also as a seasoned lobbyist, find 13 that troublesome that developers, just as -- as an example, 14 would do -- would donate money to get a Councillor's support 15 in doing a zoning application or variance application? Does 16 that trouble you? 17 A: Well, in a perfect world you wouldn't want 18 that to happen but as I say to you, it exists but then again, 19 people can argue that all kinds of things occur where people 20 support certain Councillors with staff or -- this is the same 21 old issue we always hear where unions support other 22 Councillors and they put people available and nothing's 23 really recorded and so that's another issue. 24 You can go on and on with the issues. It's 25 not perfect but it's better than most other countries.

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1 Q: You had one client and I don't need to 2 name the client here, at 43062 -- 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: -- who says and this is -- the second 5 paragraph up -- actually, third paragraph up from the bottom. 6 A: One (1), two (2). Yes. 7 Q: You see, it gives the person's name but 8 then when asked if his clients expect something in return -- 9 do you see that sentence? 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: "When asked if his clients expect 12 something in return, Lyons has said that 13 the money is give for, quote, 'building up 14 goodwill,' unquote." 15 A: It does build up goodwill. 16 Q: But isn't the purpose of goodwill to 17 receive some special treatment? 18 A: No, actually, I think what it makes with a 19 lot of these people is -- is it just raises their profile 20 that they exist and a lot of times, people think about a 21 certain company or an individual can do something or can be 22 the best proponent and what happens is that they're not even 23 aware that this other company who exists, is out there. 24 And I think sometimes, they at least get some 25 -- by ability to donate, they get some face time, or get some

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1 recognition by a decision maker that they're there. 2 And they may have a view to present or a bid 3 to propose or whatever. 4 Q: Well, if your client has a value 5 proposition, you know, that word, value proposition? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: Is it open to your client to communicate 8 that value proposition by way of -- to anybody at the City, 9 key or not, by providing them with information, by having you 10 set up, as you say, face time, any of those techniques of 11 communicating that don't involve giving somebody money? 12 A: That's true. 13 Q: If I can take you to this -- if you could 14 go back to Volume 2 for a moment, I want to ask you about 15 some comments from some Councillors about giving money. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Tab 12. 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: This is another article by Mr. Lackey 25 dated Wednesday, May 8th, 2002. And it's reported that

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1 Councillor Doug Holyday had this to say about -- about you 2 Mr. Lyons: 3 "Jeff Lyons runs a stable of Councillors at 4 City Hall and I've been saying it for 5 years. He raises a lot of their funds so 6 they don't have to do it. Then when these 7 big issues come to Council, the guy who 8 provided all the money and the election 9 expertise is the same guy who comes into 10 lobby them on behalf of these clients who 11 are looking for multi-million dollar 12 contracts with the City." 13 He goes on to the next page to say: 14 "This is an outrageous system. A lot of 15 people -- a lot of these people have sold 16 their souls to Jeff Lyons." 17 Now, in the context of fundraising and -- what 18 is your response, assuming that's a correct quote, what is 19 your response? 20 MR. TODD WHITE: Well, Your Honour, I think 21 it's a wholly unfair question to read out a statement like 22 that and ask for a comment. 23 I don't see how it's really relevant at all to 24 read out newspaper articles that shouldn't have been included 25 in the book in the first place.

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1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes? 2 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, I think it is 3 relevant, but, unless My Friend is taking issue with the fact 4 that this is an accurate quote. 5 But, I'll put the question another way. 6 Having read that quote, let me ask you this question, sir. 7 Is it true that you run a stable of Councillors at City Hall? 8 THE WITNESS: That's ridiculous. 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I don't know -- did you 10 hear that? I just wanted to make sure the Court Reporter 11 heard you -- I think you said, that's ridiculous. 12 THE WITNESS: I said, that's ridiculous. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 18 Q: Is it true that when big issues come to 19 Council, the guy who provides all the money and the election 20 expertise is the same guy who comes to lobby them, meaning 21 you, for their vote on multi-million dollar contracts? 22 A: It's not true. It's patently false. 23 Q: And is it true that a lot of these people, 24 meaning a lot of Councillors, who have accepted money, have 25 sold their souls to you?

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1 A: That's ridiculous too. 2 Q: In your -- 3 MR. TODD WHITE: Your Honour, I want to raise 4 an objection. I see no relevance whatsoever, and it's 5 completely unfair, unless Mr. Manes is trying to, you know, 6 get -- grab a headline, Mr. Manes cross-examines on whether 7 or not anyone has ever sold his soul. 8 I think it's highly inappropriate, it's 9 degrading to the witness to even have to answer that 10 question, and I can see no reason whatsoever, how it could 11 ever possibly help Your Honour in determining any of the 12 issues with respect to Mr. Lyons. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes...? 14 MR. RONALD MANES: The effect of -- of 15 lobbying activities, and the perceptions surrounding lobbying 16 -- lobbying activities go -- go to the -- to the core -- the 17 -- of our Terms of Reference, Commissioner. 18 I think it's important that Mr. Lyons, these 19 things having been said in public, have an opportunity to 20 respond in public. And I was going to ask him as the next 21 question before My Friend made his comments, as to whether in 22 his experience, any donations that he has made or that his 23 clients have made or that he has arranged on behalf of his 24 clients, have ever affected the outcome of any vote. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay, well, with respect

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1 to the question that you already have asked, as opposed to 2 the one (1) that you're about to ask. I don't actually have 3 a problem with the question, I think it is important, this 4 having been said, and especially having been said recently 5 enough after this Inquiry got started, for me to hear from 6 Mr. Lyons what his view of this is. 7 I take this to simply be whether Councillor 8 Holyday was saying it with respect to Mr. Lyons or anyone 9 else, I take what the Councillor is saying is that if someone 10 is involved in lobbying, and is also -- lobby City Hall 11 Councillors on a regular basis, and at the same time is also 12 involved in fundraising, or providing fundraising 13 opportunities for Councillors, then it puts potentially the 14 Councillors in a position where someone who has assisted them 15 in their campaign, then comes to them to lobby on a 16 particular file or on behalf of a particular client, and 17 might potentially put those Councillors in a difficult 18 ethical or perceptual difficulty. 19 So, I actually wouldn't mind hearing from Mr. 20 Lyons as an experienced lobbyist, whether he himself feels 21 that this is the case, whether Mr. Holyday was saying it 22 about you, Mr. Lyons, or not. But it would be helpful for me 23 to know what you think about that. 24 I think I have your views with respect to what 25 Mr. Holyday says in terms of them having sold their souls to

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1 you, and I'm not actually interested in that component. But 2 in terms of whether or not you think it creates difficulties 3 for any of the Councillors, if someone is involved in 4 assisting them financially with their campaigns, and then 5 afterwards is the same person who comes to them to lobby on 6 behalf of a client. 7 Not being a perfect world, as you have said, 8 does that create a difficulty for them? 9 MR. RONALD MANES: Commissioner, before I go 10 on to the next question, I'd like to comment on what my -- 11 what Mr. White just said. It's quite open to Mr. White to 12 object to any question on relevance. 13 On the other hand, Mr. White, in his 14 editorialization is not open to say anything that falls out 15 of his mouth. There are parameters of appropriateness here 16 and appropriate comments, and to suggest that any question 17 asked by Commission Counsel is for the purpose of grabbing 18 headlines, is entirely inappropriate. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, I suppose there are 20 less theatrical ways of putting forward an objection. But, 21 Mr. Lyons, did you hear what I was saying -- 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- can you help me with 24 any of that, because you know, one (1) of the things I've 25 been asked to look at in my Terms of Reference, is the

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1 relationship between elected and non-elected people. And at 2 the end of the day I do have to make some kinds of 3 recommendations. 4 THE WITNESS: Well you've got to remember that 5 there's a limit in what you can donate to a Councillor. So, 6 it's seven hundred and fifty dollars ($750). So, that's how 7 much you can contribute with respect to a client. 8 So, to put a ridiculous comment and I've 9 lobbied Councillor Holyday as I've lobbied others, to say 10 they sold their souls for a cheque of that amount just tells 11 me it's ridiculous and they don't usually get that much. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 14 Q: Well, the question I was going to ask you 15 is in your experience, generally as a lobbyist and in 16 particular at -- at City Hall, have any of these donations 17 made by you or organized by you on behalf of your clients or 18 made by your clients to any Councillor ever, in your opinion, 19 changed the outcome of anything? 20 A: Not -- no. 21 Q: I guess the -- the only remaining question 22 is why, if seven hundred and fifty dollars ($750) for 23 example, was not much money and in fact, that's not the usual 24 amount, it's usually less in your experience. Am I right in 25 that?

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1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Why that would, in your client's mind that 3 I just read to you -- this quote, why that would create 4 goodwill? What is the goodwill that you can get for so 5 little money? 6 A: No, I think the -- you're right. It's 7 just that they're basically -- in their database, they're 8 aware of them so they have a presence in this particular 9 decision maker's office. It doesn't lead to much more than 10 that and sometimes I find it doesn't matter at all, they 11 don't even know who they are but a lot of times, decision 12 makers seem to be aware of donors to their campaigns. It's 13 just a fact of life. 14 Q: They have -- they get a list? 15 A: They get a list. They file a list. 16 Q: Okay. They -- on behalf of your clients, 17 part of your function to organize, if you can, your client's 18 donations to certain Councillors or all the Councillors if 19 they wish? 20 A: They sometimes ask my advice. 21 Q: All right but let's just take a 22 hypothetical situation. You have twenty (20) clients who ask 23 your advice. You can advise them, hypothetically, all to 24 donate seven hundred and fifty dollars ($750) per client to a 25 particular Councillor or Councillors?

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1 A: Yeah, I can give them some -- they 2 sometimes ask my advice who they should support. That's -- 3 that's -- some aren't even clients. Some people just ask me 4 that. Particularly I find in mayoralty campaigns. 5 Q: Given your facility of fundraising, that 6 alone could make you pretty influential with Councillors, 7 couldn't it? 8 A: Doing what? Fundraising? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: That I would have -- 11 Q: That you could raise funds from so many of 12 -- of your clients -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- on their behalf? 15 A: I agree, yes. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Let me take you to Volume 2, Tab 14. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Just before you go there. 21 Mr. Lyons, you mentioned that people seemed to be especially 22 interested in seeking your advice as to who they should 23 support financially in mayoralty campaigns. 24 And my recollection is that when the mayor was 25 here that he didn't know who had supported him in -- in his

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1 campaign and you mentioned that people seem to be aware of 2 who has -- of who's in their database and who has supported 3 them. It's just a fact of life. 4 Do you find that most people do know who has, 5 in fact, supported them? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, mayoralty candidates, they 7 raise so much money a day, I doubt they would know everybody. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: You're talking over $1 million 10 now. I think a campaign now for mayor might be closer to a 11 million and a half. Of course, there's limits, you know, as 12 to how much they give and how much a voter they can raise, 13 but, something like that. 14 So, I would doubt that any candidate would 15 fully know the whole list. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And the amount is about 17 twenty five hundred (2,500), is it? 18 THE WITNESS: Twenty five hundred (2,500). 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Thank you. 20 And how much then would Councillors generally 21 raise, is there a -- do you have any sense? 22 THE WITNESS: They raise somewhere, I think it 23 averages around twenty five thousand (25,000). 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 25

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1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 4 Q: As I understand it, depending on how many 5 voters -- 6 A: Right -- 7 Q: -- there are there, it's between -- it can 8 go up to thirty five thousand (35,000) -- 9 A: -- it could -- 10 Q: -- does that sound right to you? 11 A: -- it could, that's high, but, it could 12 be. 13 Q: Did you, in terms of then, the 14 relationship between a mayoralty campaign and donations and a 15 Councillor, seven hundred and fifty dollar ($750) donation, 16 that would be -- would have a much greater impact on a 17 Councillor than a seven hundred and fifty dollar ($750) 18 donation to a mayoralty candidate, would that be fair? 19 A: Yes, because there's totally different -- 20 like it's a huge campaign a Mayor's campaign, as opposed to 21 the Councillors. So, seven fifty (750) would be a drop in 22 the bucket of a Mayor's campaign, I guess I would say. 23 Q: It's theoretically possible that in your 24 organizing activities, in the context of fundraising and your 25 clientele, you could --

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1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Sorry, I'm having trouble 4 hearing you so I raised my speaker and I guess I hurt 5 everybody's ears in here, and for that I apologize. 6 Yes, Mr. Manes, if you could stay close to the 7 microphone, I won't have to hurt anyone else's ears. 8 All right. Thank you. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 11 Q: You could be responsible in a sense, for 12 raising much if not most of the money that any particular 13 Councillor can use? 14 A: No, it never would be like that. I mean 15 it -- first of all, you would be exhausting all of your 16 resources helping out one (1) particular Councillor. And 17 there's -- what is there now? Forty four (44) Councillors in 18 the City? So most unlikely. Never happen. 19 Q: Fundraising in terms of donating to 20 Councillor's campaigns you directly or you organizing on 21 behalf of your clients, that can also consist of buying 22 tickets for clients for Councillors fundraisers? 23 A: That's generally how they raise their 24 money. 25 Q: All right. There would be a limit then on

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1 that, is that what you're saying, as a matter of law, there's 2 a limit as to how much any particular client -- how many 3 tickets any particular client can -- 4 A: Well, you're at seven fifty (750) mark, 5 you can't do more than that. 6 Q: Whether it's direct donation or buying 7 ticket to a fundraiser, there's no difference? 8 A: Right. I guess theoretically you could 9 deduct the expense of the meal, that never seems to be a -- 10 because meals are very costly. It's usually a reception that 11 costs a few dollars. 12 Q: At Tab 14, we are at Volume 2, the third 13 page. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Third page, yes. 18 Q: Mr. Walker -- Councillor Walker, makes the 19 observation that when the fundraiser -- 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: This is the Toronto Star 21 article again? 22 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes, it is. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 25 Q: May 6th, 2000.

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1 "Fundraiser comes calling on behalf of a 2 client wanting Council to adopt a policy, 3 benefits the client. A Councillor who 4 takes money from that client, would be far 5 less likely to act impartially." 6 I take it -- 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Where are you exactly, 8 Mr. Manes? I'm sorry -- I'm not -- 9 MR. RONALD MANES: I'm now third paragraph up 10 from the bottom. 11 THE WITNESS: Third page. 12 MR. RONALD MANES: Third page, oh, I'm very 13 sorry I didn't preface that. Third page, third paragraph up 14 from the bottom. 15 THE WITNESS: Third page, okay, got it. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. "And when the 17 fundraiser comes calling...", is that -- 18 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 22 Q: So, again to proceed according to what 23 Walker's quoted as saying, fundraisers -- a fundraiser comes 24 a calling and asking Council to adopt a policy that benefits 25 a client, the Councillor would be -- who took the money,

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1 would be far less likely to act impartial. 2 I take it that you would disagree with that, 3 given your statement to me a few moments ago? 4 A: Yes, I mean we're back to these small 5 amounts, I mean that is why they've built in that type of 6 legislation. 7 Q: The -- there seems to be throughout these 8 comments, some of these articles, the perception that getting 9 money, whatever the amount is, that a Councillor gets from a 10 particular person can affect their impartiality. 11 And I take it you disagree with -- with that 12 statement? 13 A: Well, I do. And -- I -- I do. 14 Q: So, it's -- it's in your experience, that 15 it in fact has no affect on a Councillor's impartiality, that 16 is getting money from any particular person. And 17 perceptively is the same, it's just -- 18 A: No, I think you'd get a good hearing, and 19 probably -- you'd probably get a good hearing from whatever 20 the decision maker or Councillor. 21 But to assume -- I have too much respect for 22 all these Councillors, I've learned over the years, to expect 23 that one (1) cheque for seven hundred and fifty dollars 24 ($750) isn't going to make them make a decision that's not 25 within their own reasoning, or within their own view.

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1 Q: You're -- you're assuming it's one (1) 2 cheque you can assume that you could arrange twenty (20) 3 cheques as well, for seven hundred and fifty dollars ($750). 4 A: But that -- 5 Q: Given your fundraising capabilities. 6 A: -- you could raise some more money, but 7 the bottom line is you're representing a client who donated 8 somewhere up to seven hundred and fifty dollars ($750) or 9 evolved -- or if any, you know, assuming they always 10 contribute. 11 Q: Well, why should the money, whatever that 12 amount is, relate at all to, as you put it in your words a 13 few moments ago, go -- getting a good hearing -- 14 A: It shouldn't -- it shouldn't, but -- and 15 it doesn't always, you could have a person that worked very 16 hard on your campaign, didn't donate a cent. And then they 17 have, you know, groups that support you because of some 18 policy issue, and they didn't contribute money and they would 19 get maybe a better hearing than I could get if I represented 20 a contributor. 21 It's just a fact of life, there's influences 22 out there. Fundraising is one (1) part, some people would 23 say that's more important than other parts, but there's all 24 kinds of groups and people who help in election campaigns who 25 get their hearing.

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1 And I guess the political process is such, 2 that people who do those things generally get a better 3 hearing than somebody who's not involved. 4 Q: And in terms of what you would advise your 5 clients, you would advise them of that political wisdom? 6 A: Yes, get involved, you don't have to 7 necessarily contribute. I don't always say to them you have 8 to write a cheque. If you like this Councillor and you 9 support that kind of view, that he or she's saying, or 10 whatever policy issue you're worked up about, get involved, 11 that's what politics -- that's what democracy's all about. 12 Q: Mr. Lyons, human nature is a fact of life, 13 some people may be affected by a -- a donation, whatever the 14 amount. Some people may not, is that what you're saying? 15 A: Partly what I'd be saying. 16 Q: In the other words, the -- the donation of 17 money to a Councillor's campaign may possibly affect their 18 judgement, for example, on whether to give a good hearing to 19 your client? 20 A: I think what we're talking about is not a 21 decision. We're talking about a fair hearing because I think 22 decisions are a big -- big difference between that and a fair 23 hearing and I never expect that decisions will be made 24 because of any particular influence but it gives you a fair 25 hearing. So I'm just repeating myself, I think.

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1 Q: All right. Hearings that -- that 2 Councillors have, the purpose of those hearing is to 3 communicate information? 4 A: I beg your pardon? 5 Q: The purpose of those hearings or meetings 6 are to communication information -- 7 A: Absolutely. 8 Q: -- from your client? 9 A: Absolutely. 10 Q: And the information that's communicated 11 during those hearings and fairly so to hopefully influence 12 the Councillor's vote? 13 A: It could be that that would start there, 14 yes. 15 Q: That's where you're putting -- 16 A: But I'm saying conversely, you may have 17 another with another point of view who didn't contribute any 18 money but might know the Councillor or is a rate payer or the 19 head of a rate payer organization or did something that comes 20 in and puts his -- his or her point of view which may have 21 more influence than the contributor. 22 Q: That's possible as well. The -- the -- 23 depending on the Councillor, that donation just might get 24 you, as you say -- 25 A: A fair hearing.

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1 Q: -- a fair hearing. All right. 2 MR. RONALD MANES: Commissioner, I see it's 3 one o'clock and I am going to go on to a different area. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. All right. We'll 5 break until 2:30. 6 THE REGISTRAR: Order. The Inquiry is 7 adjourned until 2:30. 8 9 --- Upon Recessing at 1:00 p.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 2:31 p.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: The Inquiry will resume, 13 please be seated. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes...? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr. Manes. 22 MR. RONALD MANES: Thank you, Commissioner. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 25 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Lyons.

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1 A: Good afternoon. 2 Q: I'd like to spend some time talking with 3 you about your influence at City Hall and relationships with 4 some key decision makers at City Hall. 5 Is it right that you do have influence at City 6 Hall? 7 A: That's a bit of a pejorative word. I -- I 8 know people at City Hall. 9 Q: Well, you're referred to as a power 10 broker, as a -- a person of influence at City Hall, is that 11 just perception or is that reality? 12 A: I -- I think that's a bit too strong, 13 certainly power broker certainly is. And I think other 14 people have as much influence as I have, so I don't know 15 where that puts me. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Well, there's talk in some of these 20 articles, and I'll take you to -- to one (1) in a moment, 21 about you -- your relationship with the Mayor, your 22 relationship with Mr. Jakobek, relationship with Mr. Andrew, 23 relationship with many -- relationship with Mr. Godfrey, many 24 people that are themselves influential with the City. 25 Is it fair to say that you do have

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1 relationships with people that in turn have influence on the 2 City? 3 A: Well, you mentioned the Mayor and Mr. 4 Jakobek, I can't remember who else you mentioned -- 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Jim Andrew and Paul 6 Godfrey. 7 THE WITNESS: Jim Andrew. Jim Andrew, well, 8 he was a staff person, Mr. Godfrey, they would all have 9 influence I would think. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 12 Q: The Tab -- Volume 2, Tab 21 -- 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: -- that's an article by Mr. Lakey, January 15 31st, 2000. And it's talking about you and Mr. David Smith. 16 Mr. Smith's a former partner of yours -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- in your law firm? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And he -- as a lobbyist? 21 A: At that time? 22 Q: Yes? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: He was on the opposite side of you in the 25 MediaCom deal wasn't he?

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1 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right, now that's what this article is 3 about? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And in the course of this, this is nothing 6 quoted from -- from Mr. Smith at this point, but the article 7 talks about you being a member of Mayor Lastman's kitchen 8 cabinet of advisors. 9 First of all, what is the -- what is the 10 kitchen cabinet of advisors, that's by the way, the second 11 page, first paragraph? 12 A: Well -- 13 Q: And are you a member of that kitchen 14 cabinet? 15 A: No, I'm not a member. There was a coffee 16 clique you might call, who met with the Mayor periodically 17 and had several people involved. 18 Q: You were amongst them? 19 A: No. 20 Q: You -- this is attributed to you, but four 21 (4) or five (5) paragraphs down, after it says: 22 "Smith and Lyons were partners in the same 23 law firm for many years, and their 24 relationship is cordial." 25 It goes on to say that:

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1 "Lyons describes Smith as a mentor." 2 Would that be an apt description of your 3 relationship with David Smith? 4 A: I learned a lot from David. He was a 5 former City Councillor, I should indicate. So, he had some 6 good knowledge on the City of Toronto politics. 7 Q: Mr. Smith himself, you would consider 8 influential? 9 A: At City Hall? 10 Q: No. 11 A: He's certainly influential in the Federal 12 Liberal party, I think -- 13 Q: Right. 14 A: -- that's well known. 15 Q: And then there's a sentence here: 16 "Smith says that Lyons puissance --" 17 And that is -- we had to look that up in the 18 dictionary. 19 A: Yeah, that's a big word. 20 Q: And It's P-U-I-S-S-A-N-C-E. I've never 21 seen that word before -- 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Puissance, it's French -- 23 MR. RONALD MANES: It's puissance -- 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- for power. 25 MR. RONALD MANES: Thank you, Commissioner. I

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1 had to look it up in the dictionary. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Where are you exactly, I 3 don't -- 4 MR. RONALD MANES: Two (2), three (3), four 5 (4), five (5), six (6), six (6) paragraphs down. 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 9 Q: "Smith said that Lyons' power at City Hall 10 approaches omnipotence." 11 Do you think that -- is that an overstatement? 12 Or is that -- 13 A: You know what, we're friends, we're being 14 interviewed by an individual for a story, and so what we're 15 going to do is say very, very flattering comments about each 16 other, because that's just the way we are, we happen to be 17 very good friends. 18 I consider David a good friend -- 19 Q: All right. 20 A: -- I just -- just saw him recently -- 21 Q: And -- 22 A: -- and his wife. 23 Q: Statements to that affect on your -- 24 you're a power -- power broker, that your ability to raise 25 funds, so on and so forth, certainly you'll agree, create a

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1 perception that you're -- you're very influential at City 2 Hall? You're surely not blind to that. 3 A: People would made -- some people would say 4 that I have influence. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Well, would it be fair to say that when a 9 client retains you, they -- part of the reason they would 10 retain you other than your -- your acknowledgability as a 11 lobbyist is that they hope they can capitalize on what they, 12 at least, perceive as your influence? 13 A: Yes, but you're -- but you had other 14 people appear who seem to do the same business. I mean, 15 that's not -- obviously they retain these people for other 16 than their influence and that would be me too, but obviously, 17 if you have some influence, they would like that too. 18 Q: But I simply make a point with you that -- 19 that -- that there is a perception and it can be shared by 20 your clients that you are very influential at the City? 21 A: I don't think I'm very influential. I -- 22 I have experience. I know -- I ha -- I ha -- know a number 23 of people. If that's influence, then that's influence but 24 that's all it is. 25 Q: Well, let's talk in specifics here. Mayor

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1 Lastman. At one point, as I recall, the mayor said something 2 to the effect that he hardly knew you. I -- did you hear 3 that statement? 4 A: Yes, so there can't be much influence. 5 Q: Do you agree with that statement that you 6 hardly know -- that the mayor hardly knows you? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. Now, the mayor, of course, 9 testified here that you were the campaign manager for two (2) 10 campaigns in North York. 11 A: No, I never was his campaign manager. I 12 did fundraising. 13 Q: Two (2) campaigns in North York? 14 A: Possibly more. 15 Q: All right and you did some fundraising for 16 him in the -- in his inaugural 1997 campaign? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Did some fundraising for him in the 2000 19 campaign? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, apparently there's a -- there's a 22 video of the mayor at his acceptance speech or after he had 23 been voted in mayor where you're almost next to him with his 24 family on the stage. Do you remember that? 25 A: What do you mean, on victory night?

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1 Q: Yes. 2 A: Yes, I was on the stage, I recall. 3 Q: That would be somewhat suggestive of -- of 4 more than someone who you hardly know or hardly knows you, 5 Mr. Lyons? 6 A: Well -- 7 MR. TODD WHITE: Well, Mr. Lyons has not said 8 that he hardly knows that mayor. He says that he wouldn't 9 disagree and he agreed with the mayor's statement that he 10 hardly knows Jeff. I think that's a fair question. 11 MR. RONALD MANES: I think Mr. Lyons 12 specifically said that he agreed with the mayor's statement 13 that he -- that he, Mr. Lyons, hardly knows the mayor. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I thought it was the 15 other way around. 16 THE WITNESS: I think it was the other way 17 around -- 18 MR. RONALD MANES: All right. 19 THE WITNESS: -- actually, Counsel. I'm sorry 20 -- 21 MR. RONALD MANES: Fine. 22 THE WITNESS: -- to say that. 23 MR. RONALD MANES: Fine. Then it's my 24 mistake. 25

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1 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 2 Q: Then it -- it the mayor may hardly know 3 you but you know the mayor -- 4 A: I know the mayor. 5 Q: -- well? 6 A: Wh -- well? I'm -- I -- well, he's -- 7 we're friendly. 8 Q: All right. Would you say that it's a 9 close and cordial relationship? 10 A: No, I wouldn't put it to that point. 11 Q: Do you know Ms. Sheila White? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Was she involved in the mayor's office in 14 North York when you were raising money for the mayor in his 15 two (2) campaigns? 16 A: Yeah. She worked -- she worked in his 17 office. 18 Q: She worked with the mayor? 19 A: Yeah, I can't remember her position. She 20 wasn't the one I'd speak to so much in there as another lady 21 but she was in his office, I can't remember what she did. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Were you an integral -- were you integral

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1 to the Mayor's fundraising in North York? 2 A: In those years, in North York? Yes, I 3 would -- it wasn't much -- you've got to remember, this man 4 was basically acclaimed every time, so to do fundraising 5 wasn't a big effort, but I did do the fundraising. 6 Q: So in terms of that statement, that you 7 were integral to the Mayor's fundraising in North York, you 8 would -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- agree with that? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. Were you integral to the 13 Mayor's fundraising in terms of his 1997 campaign? 14 A: No, actually, he had his fundraising 15 chairs, I was just a fundraiser. 16 Q: How was it that you came to be on the 17 stage with him? 18 A: I -- I was -- I was involved. And, I 19 don't know, who knows in the excitement of the moment? I 20 actually went over and went on the stage with Barbara Hall to 21 wish her condolences, and spoke to her husband. So, she 22 happened to be on the stage, so I -- you know, these things 23 happen. 24 Q: You were on the stage for both of them? 25 A: You might say I was on the stage for both

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1 of them. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: But, I really just went over to offer my 4 condolences to her. I thought somebody should do that and I 5 did that, anyway. 6 Q: During that -- the -- the Mayor's 1997 7 Mayoralty Campaign, did he, at times, have anxiety or get 8 excited and seek your counsel and advice? 9 A: No, he never sought my advice for his -- 10 I've read that article, that didn't happen. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Ms. Cross described an incident where you 15 were at the -- at City Hall, and -- in a meeting, and the 16 Mayor came in and greeted you as a brother. In a cordial or 17 an affectionate way, I take it? 18 A: He was friendly. He was -- he was -- 19 listen, this guy is a great salesmen. He could make people 20 feel good. 21 Q: While we're on that, what is this, Brother 22 -- Brother Jeff? Could you explain that? 23 A: Oh, it's just some euphemism that occurred 24 many years ago, actually through my partner David Smith. He 25 comes from a very much of a Baptist background, that's all

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1 there is to it. His family were all Baptist Ministers. 2 Q: There's a little bit more to it, you sort 3 of adopted it as an affectionate moniker for yourself? You 4 wanted people to call you Brother Jeff? 5 A: That's me being friendly. 6 Q: All right. Just in terms of your 7 promotion as a lobbyist -- 8 A: Yes, I've done that sometimes, yes. 9 Q: All right. Mugs, or -- 10 A: Right. 11 Q: -- whatever? 12 A: Right. 13 Q: They find their way on various desks at 14 City Hall, do you know that? 15 A: That -- that I knew, yes. 16 Q: In fact, just in terms of -- of your golf 17 tournaments, the Brother Jeff -- 18 A: Yes, I -- 19 Q: -- Golf Tournament -- 20 A: -- I do that to sort of make everybody 21 feel at home, and -- 22 Q: All right. 23 A: It's for a good cause. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

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1 Q: Do you have occasion to speak with the 2 Mayor's sons? 3 A: Are you talking recently? 4 Q: Well, 1999, 2000. 5 A: Not much with Dale. Blain, when there was 6 ever a campaign, he was always trying to get the money 7 organized. He'd be phoning you maybe once a week or once 8 a -- or -- and then you probably wouldn't hear -- hear from 9 him again until next campaign. 10 Q: I've got a note here that you -- you went 11 to, was it Dale's bar mitzvah, or Blain's? 12 A: Yes, I was invited to those events, I 13 think -- I don't know both son's, one (1). So, maybe I 14 didn't go to either. Now I'm thinking maybe I go to either. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Are you saying you were 16 invited -- 17 THE WITNESS: I think I was invited to their 18 wedding, I was invited to something. I didn't go to them 19 all, but I remember something, I thought maybe -- maybe I 20 wasn't, but I thought I was invited to one (1). 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 23 Q: In any event, you were invited, to the 24 best of your recollection, to some family -- Lastman family 25 function?

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1 A: I thought -- I thought one (1), but I 2 could be wrong. No more than one (1), but I sort of -- it's 3 vaguely in my mind thinking one (1). 4 Q: Mr. Jakobek, he is one (1) of the most 5 influential Councillors at City Hall or was? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Would you consider him in fact, especially 8 in 1999, the most influential Councillor at City Hall? 9 A: 1999, I still think the Deputy Mayor was 10 more powerful, but he'd be about the third most important 11 person. 12 Q: Mayor, Deputy Mayor -- 13 A: And Budget Chief. 14 Q: -- Budget Chief. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: When Mr. White was -- was asking the 19 questions to Mr. Marentette, you suggested to him that it was 20 important, in terms of taking DFS' value proposition to the 21 key people in the City, that you hit as many key people as 22 you possibly can that may have anything to do with that 23 decision? 24 A: That's correct, but it depends on the 25 issue, and that issue, Mr. Jakobek being the Budget Chief,

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1 would be more important than the Deputy Mayor. 2 Q: Right, and I just want to stick with that. 3 A: Okay, you want to stick with that -- 4 Q: Yeah. The -- 5 A: You like that? Okay. 6 Q: In fact, in the -- in the DFS deal, your 7 retainer with DFS, the only Councillor that you took Mr. 8 Marentette to see was Councillor Jakobek? 9 A: That's my recollection. 10 Q: So, in -- in your view at that time, is it 11 fair to say that not only were you comfortable in taking him 12 to see Councillor Jakobek, but Councillor Jakobek was the key 13 Councillor to go to see? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now, according to -- to what I had read 16 here, you helped Councillor Jakobek when he first got 17 elected? 18 A: I'm -- yes. 19 Q: How did you help him? 20 A: I think I raised some money for him. 21 That's all I can recall. And I think I got a couple of 22 clients involved in that area, helping him with -- you know, 23 signs or whatever they were -- on their buildings, or 24 whatever. 25 Q: All right. That's 1985, around there?

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1 A: It must be around that. 2 Q: Right. Did you -- I was unclear on this 3 in Ms. Cross' evidence, but did you have something to do with 4 the -- his introduction to his wife, Debbie? 5 A: No. 6 Q: At the cottage or something? 7 A: No, he actually met her through some other 8 circumstances, but he -- we were much closer in those days, 9 and when he was dating Debbie, we -- I sort of knew about it, 10 was involved a bit. 11 Q: All right. And didn't you and Mr. Godfrey 12 throw a hundred dollar ($100) a plate stag for him? 13 A: Yeah, that's true. 14 Q: All right. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: It's a -- an apt observation, I think you 19 made at one point, that you know him quite well. 20 A: Well, we were -- in 1985, you describe, in 21 those early days I was close with Mr. Jakobek but after he 22 got married, had children, we really haven't seen each other 23 as much and I would say in the last ten (10) years, we're 24 friendly. He got his -- he pursued his own life and he also 25 got very busy with politics.

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1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Let me turn you to Volume 2, Tab 2. 4 A: Volume 2, Tab 2. 5 Q: This is a transcript from a proceeding in 6 which you were involved. Cityscape and Ontario Realty 7 Corporation, et cetera. In -- in the materials? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right and if you go to Page 48, that's 10 the second page of these materials. There's a question to -- 11 to you. Just put this in perspective, this just had to do 12 with questions regarding a certain client who had a deal on 13 the beaches that -- that -- 14 A: Right. 15 Q: -- you represented him on. 16 A: Right. I remember this. 17 Q: All right and I'll just go into the -- 18 into the answer. 19 "What did was that -- it was an area down 20 in the beaches and this is the old, this 21 isn't the new. This is the City of 22 Toronto. I'm trying to remember different 23 Councils have different responsibility so 24 this is the old City of Toronto and the 25 zoning and planning was all under the local

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1 Council, not the municipality of 2 Metropolitan Toronto. So the Councillor 3 for that area was Tom Jakobek who I know 4 quite well." 5 A: I agree. 6 Q: All right and then you go on to say: 7 "I met him since he was first a Councillor. 8 I helped him when he first got elected." 9 Et cetera. The -- you both supported Mr. 10 Lastman 1997, 2000? 11 A: Well, Mr. Jakobek was running. Oh, does 12 this work? Oh. Mr. Jakobek was running first in '97. So he 13 didn't really come into the campaign until much longer. He 14 was sort of thinking whether he would run. 15 Q: All right but in the -- 16 A: In the end he did support the mayor, 17 you're right. 18 Q: And the same thing in 2000, in the end he 19 supported the mayor? 20 A: I wasn't involved with that campaign. He 21 probably did. I -- I just don't remember his role as I 22 didn't have a big part. 23 Q: You know that we had Ms. Cross here as -- 24 as a -- 25 A: Right.

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1 Q: -- as a witness and she had notes and in 2 those notes there are references to Tom and Tommy. Did you 3 -- did you call Mr. Jakobek Tommy? 4 A: When I first met him, he was a very young 5 guy. You're talking about a fellow in his early twenties and 6 his friends all called him Tommy that I met so I just called 7 him Tommy but in recent years, I probably would -- I probably 8 would have used it as much as I've used Tom or Jakobek but he 9 was called Tommy when I first met him. 10 Q: Interestingly you're quite right in that. 11 In this proceeding in which you're being examined you 12 referred to him as Mr. Jakobek, as Tom and so I went to see 13 Tom. 14 A: Right but that's -- that's true. 15 Q: The -- there are -- you kept in phone 16 contact with Mr. Jakobek over the years as well as seeing 17 him? 18 A: Yeah. When -- I kept in touch with him, 19 yes. By -- but mostly on a professional basis. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: Very rarely -- 22 Q: Well -- 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: The -- we have those, just for our record, 25 I might just refer to one of these in a moment. Can we go to

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1 Volume 2? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: Eighteen (18) -- Tab 18, page 2? 4 A: Tab 18, page 2. Okay. 5 Q: These, and the next page, page 3 -- 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: -- these are all telephone calls on your 8 cell, to Mr. Jakobek. I guess, May 31st -- from May 31st, 9 '99 to February 2nd, 2002, if you take into consideration 10 both these charts. 11 A: February 14th, you mean? 2002? Or is 12 that the next page, here? No, that's somebody else. 13 Q: No, that's -- yes. 14 A: You're talking -- 15 Q: That's quite right. 16 A: February 14th -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- 2002, which is -- 19 Q: So that would be page -- just for our 20 record, sorry, that would be page 2 -- pages 2 and 4? 21 A: Right -- 2 and 4? Okay. 22 Q: Two (2) and 4. It's called, "Calls" -- 23 first of all, page 2 is "Calls from Lyons to Jakobek". 24 A: Oh, I see. 25 Q: And then, "Calls from Jakobek to Lyons".

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1 A: And that goes to July 30, 2002. 2 Q: Right, the calls -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- from Jakobek to Lyons? 5 A: Yes. That's what you have, that's what it 6 is. 7 Q: I've got, just during those -- that period 8 of time, seventy-five (75) some calls? 9 A: It could be, I -- I don't think he was 10 Councillor during all that time. 11 Q: No, that's right. There's -- there's some 12 that are outside of it, and some here, you see that, if you 13 go to page 4? 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: 2002, 2002, 2001? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: In fact, in -- in that chart, almost all 18 the calls at page 4 were after he was Councillor out of City 19 Hall. 20 A: Right. 21 Q: And some of those calls, you see, three 22 (3) minutes and fifty (50) seconds -- 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: -- nine (9) minutes and fifty (50) 25 seconds, seven (7) minutes and fifty-four (54) seconds. Do

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1 you have any recollection, if you can, as to what those calls 2 were? January, February, March and April, 2002? Some of 3 these long ones? 4 A: Yes, I actually -- it was two (2) things. 5 He was involved in a provincial leadership. He was helping 6 me with a candidate. He was actually doing some fundraising. 7 And also, he was looking for a job. 8 If I recall, somehow around that time, he was 9 no longer with the Toronto East General, and he was looking 10 at some position at the province. So he sought my advice and 11 I would do that, certainly for him. I would do it for a lot 12 of other people. 13 Q: All right. And if you go back to page 2, 14 this is May 31st, 1999, that's actually the -- the date that 15 the -- Call Number 12, the date that the RFQ was released by 16 the City. There's a call there for three (3) minutes and 17 thirty (30) seconds. 18 Do you recall whether that had anything to do 19 with -- 20 A: To be honest with you, Mr. Manes, I had so 21 many different matters on, at the time, I don't recall that 22 conversation. But -- 23 Q: Did you have a discussion with Mr. Jakobek 24 regarding, I can't remember the term you used, nosing around, 25 when you were acting for -- for DFS?

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1 A: No, all I remember with him was that 2 meeting. 3 Q: And this -- this phone call from May 31st, 4 '99, do you remember that that -- at least that that didn't 5 have anything to do with that 1999 leasing RFQ, or are you 6 unsure? 7 A: Well, let me put it this way. I can't 8 remember the phone call, but my recollection with respect to 9 me -- to DFS, was that meeting I had sometime in May at his 10 office, and that's all my recollection is. 11 Q: Well, we'll come to that, I -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- so long as we're on this phone call. 14 The -- there's -- there's an entry here, July 22nd, '99, see 15 that -- 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: -- the second one (1) down? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: That's a few days after the -- the Policy 20 and Finance meeting. Do you recall speaking with him on that 21 occasion? 22 MR. TODD WHITE: I don't -- perhaps My Friend 23 could tell me where that is. My next phone call on the list 24 is October. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: When -- July -- it's the

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1 second one (1) on the list? 2 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: 22 July, '99 on Page 2 -- 4 Mr. White, page 2. 5 MR. TODD WHITE: Page 2, I thought was October 6 22nd, 1999 or I'm looking -- 7 THE WITNESS: No, I've got -- 8 MR. RONALD MANES: No, October 22nd, 1999 is 9 the third entry I've got. 10 MR. TODD WHITE: We've got different -- 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You have different lists? 12 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: I have what Mr. White 13 has, Commissioner. I have 31 May, '99 and then 22 October, 14 '99 on my page too. Lyons/Jakobek, and I believe Mr. 15 Anderson does as well. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Lyons, do you have -- 17 THE WITNESS: I have the July 22nd, yes. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: July, all right. Ms. 19 Groskaufmanis, Ms. Hogan has just arrived, could you -- 20 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: I'll speak to her. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 22 MR. RONALD MANES: All right, well -- 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Can we get back to that 24 after and then find out -- 25 MR. RONALD MANES: We'll have to get everybody

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1 the -- 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Obviously. 3 MR. RONALD MANES: -- same list. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And make sure that all 5 the other ones are all the same as well. 6 Ms. Groskaufmanis, is -- 7 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: Ms. Hogan's looking 8 after that. 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Oh, she is. She already 10 knows about it? Oh. Going to start calling her Radar. All 11 right. 12 MR. RONALD MANES: All right, in any event, if 13 I can be permitted just on this July 22nd, '99 entry. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 16 Q: Mr. Lyons, it's 9:21 in the morning, do 17 you have any recollection of that and whether it related at 18 all to the Policy and Finance meeting that was two (2) days 19 before? 20 A: I mean, I had a -- 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Just so you know, Mr. 22 Lyons, the Policy and Finance meeting that Mr. Manes is 23 talking about is the one that has come to be known as the -- 24 the Jakobek flexibility clause meeting. 25 THE WITNESS: Oh, I see.

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1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. So -- because I 2 don't think you'd be expected to remember which PMS meeting 3 was on at that -- so that's the few days after that 4 particular meeting. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, I had a lot of issues 6 going on at the time, and actually, I know this important, 7 but I had other even more pressing ones, and I could have 8 been talking more likely to him about that. 9 Then -- what's this -- this -- what did you 10 call it? The flexibility clause meeting? 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes. 12 THE WITNESS: I certainly don't -- I just 13 don't remember having conversations with him about this. I 14 wasn't -- it wasn't a big issue in our office, we were 15 working on it, but it wasn't something that we were 16 tenaciously pursuing, it just -- that's all I can answer. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 20 Q: All right, I -- again, just -- we'll go 21 into this, I'm just interested in -- in establishing the -- 22 the context of your relationship. 23 Then you -- you have lobbied Mr. Jakobek on 24 several occasions, as any other Councillor? 25 A: If you know Mr. Jakobek, you don't lobby

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1 him, he has his own fixed opinions, and he works very quick, 2 he's a very smart guy, you'll have your chance I'm sure, to 3 see that. 4 And you can put your point of view through to 5 him, and either he'd agree with you or he'd disagree with 6 you, or he'd tell you he'd think about it, and that's 7 basically the answers you got from him. 8 Q: I didn't say you lobbied him effectively, 9 I just asked you if you lobbied him? 10 A: I lobbied him, yes, it wasn't effective, 11 okay. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: I agree with you. 14 Q: There -- on occasion, when you lobbied Mr. 15 Jakobek, your client was successful in gaining his support? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. I just wanted to -- to take 18 you back to this transcript, and it describes the one (1) 19 such lobbying effort. Can I take you back to that tab number 20 -- Volume 2, Tab 2? 21 A: Yes. Oh, sorry, yes, all right. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Same one (1), same 23 volume -- 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES:

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1 Q: Just the -- just the second page. 2 A: Yeah, I know which one (1) you're talking 3 about, yeah. 4 Q: Now, this again, going back, is -- is 5 questions on this examination with you in relation to a 6 property on Kildonan which is in the Gerrard main area which 7 is in the beaches which involved Councillor Jakobek. Does 8 that put it in -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- perspective? All right and you, on 11 behalf of your client, go to meet him to talk with him about 12 what your -- your client seeks from the Committee of 13 Adjustment in terms of that property? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: All right and this -- and I won't go into 16 your client's name here but -- 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Answer: 21 "And so I went to see Tom and I said 22 by that time--" 23 Your client, that is and I, meaning you had 24 made a deal. Quote: 25 "You bring the work, I said. I don't know

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1 what I'm going to charge you for doing a 2 couple of meetings, you know. Maybe 3 increase your bill a bit but that was 4 basically what I said but the legal work 5 would be bigger because he'd have these 6 purchase agreements and then he'd have the 7 sale of all those townhouses." 8 This is what you're saying to Mr. Jakobek, 9 correct? 10 A: Or to -- 11 MR. TODD WHITE: That's not -- 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: To the lawyer who's 13 asking him the question but -- 14 THE WITNESS: No, I'm just saying this to the 15 lawyer. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 18 Q: No. Yes, you're saying it to Mr. Lawyer 19 but is that -- you're relating what you had said to Mr. 20 Jakobek? 21 A: No, no, no. I just said what I said to my 22 client. I don't know what I'm going to charge you for doing 23 a couple of meetings, you know. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Do you see what I mean?

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1 Q: Yes, I do. 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: And then go down to the next, and this 4 will clarify -- let's -- let's go down to the next question, 5 286, right? 6 Answer: 7 "Which I can't remember what it would have 8 added up to. Morris told me at the time 9 and it turned out that, I think, Tom had a 10 lot to do with holding up the project for 11 whatever reasons he had. You know, I said, 12 look at, this guy is good and he said, 13 well, is he a good client of yours and I 14 said, yeah, I just found him and he's 15 actually got a lot of projects going on. 16 He could be very good for me." 17 Question: 18 "This is Tom asking you?" 19 20 Answer: 21 "Yes, right and he had some problems with 22 the townhouses and the sitting of them and 23 all that, and I said why don't you just 24 meet with my guy and work it out." 25 Question: "Right."

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1 Answer: 2 "Look it, this guy isn't a bad person and I 3 don't know a lot about him. He just became 4 my client but another person speaks of him 5 well." 6 Question: "Tom knew this other person?" 7 Then you -- the question is the other person 8 and then the answer: 9 "Right and that's how we started and I 10 think I had a couple of meetings with Tom 11 because they wanted to go to where the 12 townhouses were going to be sited, you 13 know, so the community would be happy and 14 that's basically -- I just cut the log jam. 15 I cut through it. 16 Q: Okay. You succeeded? 17 A: Succeeded." 18 Is that -- is that an apt description of what 19 happened in that transaction with you and Mr. Jakobek? 20 A: Yes, what happened was he didn't seem to 21 want to meet this client for whatever reason. I did say 22 that, why don't you meet with this fellow and kind of 23 indicated he was a good client, which I said in that 24 transcript and he agreed to meet with him and they had to go 25 through the whole planning issues.

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1 He wasn't going to just do it. It had to -- 2 but I -- the -- what the log jam was he didn't seem to want 3 to meet with the person and that was what I really was able 4 to do, was to get him to agree to meet with this guy and deal 5 with him. 6 Q: And that -- 7 A: Meet with this client, I should say, and 8 dealing with him. 9 Q: That was part of what you said, was 10 getting a fair meeting or -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- a good -- good meeting? 13 A: That was what I'd call a fair hearing. Ag 14 -- agreeing -- well, that one needed a hearing, let alone 15 even a fair one. 16 Q: And as I understand it, Mr. Jakobek 17 ultimately wrote a letter of support for your client's 18 application to the Committee of Adjustment, they allowed the 19 subdivision and the townhouses were built, et cetera. Is 20 that right? 21 A: Something like that, yeah. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Can I go back a second -- you see what 25 mislead me here. If you go back to the top in Line 1 and it

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1 says: 2 "So I said -- so I went to see Tom and I 3 said by that time, my client --" 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You're on page 49. It's 5 on the page before, the one (1) we were. 6 MR. RONALD MANES: Sorry, back to the top, 7 again, to 49. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 11 Q: "And so I went to see Tom, and I said, 12 by that time, [the person] and I had made 13 the deal." 14 And this is what you say, I thought you said 15 to Tom -- I thought what you were saying, here, you were 16 telling Tom what you had said to your client. Am I wrong in 17 that? Because it says, 18 "And so I went to see Tom and I said --" 19 A: No, I was dealing with the examiner at the 20 time, and I was trying to under -- put it in chronological 21 order, so -- 22 Q: Oh, I -- 23 A: So I went to answer the Tom question, then 24 I went back to saying, we had this agreement, already. I 25 have to look at this previous question.

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1 Q: That's not going to help you much. 2 A: Yes, okay. That's my understanding of it, 3 because it wouldn't have anything to do with Tom, what my 4 relationship with the client was. All I did tell him, he's a 5 good client, he's got a lot of projects going on and I did 6 say that. 7 Q: All right. Well, that brings me to -- to 8 this issue. Do you have any explanation for why Mr. Jakobek 9 would be interested in whether this client is a good client 10 of yours or not? 11 A: No, I really probably just said, don't 12 be -- you're being difficult. Why don't you meet with this 13 guy. And I probably just embellished the story by saying, 14 he's a good client of mine. 15 Q: Well, according to your sworn transcript, 16 here, it's Mr. Jakobek who says to you, 17 "Well, is he a good client of yours?" 18 And you say, 19 "Yeah, I've just found him and he's 20 actually got a lot of projects going on. 21 He could be very good for me." 22 So it's not a matter of -- of you 23 embellishing, it's just a matter of Mr. Jakobek asking you 24 whether he is a good client of yours. 25 And my question to you is, do you have any

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1 explanation that you can offer as to why Mr. Jakobek would 2 have an interest in whether this client was a good client of 3 yours? 4 A: No, I don't have any more to say than what 5 it says there. 6 Q: Well, when he said that to you, according 7 to this transcript, you -- your response was not guarded or 8 anything. You told him what the client meant to you, right? 9 A: Yes, I don't know -- like, this is my 10 reflection at the time I gave my discovery. That's all I can 11 tell you. I mean, obviously, he didn't seem to want to meet 12 with this fellow, so I guess he asked me this question. And 13 he finally agreed to meet with him, so. 14 Q: It's obviously relevant to him, according 15 to this deposition, here. It's obviously relevant to him as 16 to meeting with your client, that this client is a good 17 client of yours. Is that -- 18 A: I didn't put -- 19 Q: -- fair? 20 A: I didn't put much of a point on it. I 21 mean, basically, my sense was, he didn't want to meet with 22 this person. I told him he was a good client, or he -- he 23 might have asked me, I can't remember. But I said, this -- 24 this guy was good. And then he said, is he a good client? 25 So whatever way it went.

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1 And then we agreed to meet. I think I must 2 have gone to one (1) or two (2) meetings. And after he 3 explained what he wanted to do with his project, and then 4 after, Tom sort of got him to agree to certain planning 5 issues, it went ahead and that's no more than that to it. 6 And it -- it wasn't like -- it wasn't a major 7 event, you know. 8 Q: I -- I -- 9 A: I guess we got into this because -- oh, 10 because of the client was the same client, right. Okay. 11 Q: Getting back to when you were discussing 12 your role as a rainmaker in the firm and then a rainmaker is 13 a lobbyist and fundraising. We talked about making contacts, 14 developing them, spending time with people, doing favours for 15 them, they do favours for you. 16 Is this one (1) of those situations where you 17 were asking Mr. Jakobek to do you a favour? 18 A: Maybe -- you could put an interpretation. 19 But I thought that was right, that -- that this was a 20 project, why wasn't he meeting. So, I was kind of surprised. 21 So, objectively looking at it, I might have 22 said to him, Tom, I'd like you to meet with this guy or this 23 gentleman, and he might have thought because I asked, he was 24 doing it, but he should have done it anyway. 25 Q: I appreciate that, but that's the edge

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1 that you bring to lobbying, is your relationship with various 2 people like Mr. Jakobek? 3 A: Well, in that situation it might have made 4 the difference, I don't know. But obviously I was the first 5 one (1) that got the door open for this fellow, with this 6 project. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Mr. Paul Godfrey, would you agree that he 11 is a person of unquestionable influence at the City of 12 Toronto? 13 A: Well, you'd have to ask him that. I -- 14 he's well known, and he's -- I know that the Mayor has sought 15 his advice from time to time, but -- and he has vast 16 experience. 17 Q: From what you say about him, do you seek 18 advice from him? 19 A: From Paul? Sometimes I get his advice. 20 Q: And value that advice? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: In fact, I think that when you were the 23 chair of the TTC you sought his advice about having a -- if I 24 recall, a public phone in -- 25 A: Yes.

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1 Q: -- system, and he advised you that it 2 wasn't such a good idea unless you wanted to be on the phone 3 all the time? 4 A: Yes, I remember that. 5 Q: In any event, he's a person that -- advice 6 that you value? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And is it a person whose advice, the Mayor 9 values? 10 A: I would think so. 11 Q: He is a person that you consider a great 12 and good friend? 13 A: Absolutely. 14 Q: All right. And this had been a 15 longstanding friendship of how many years? 16 A: Boy, you -- thirty-eight (38) years. 17 Q: Longer than you've been a lawyer? 18 A: You're right. 19 Q: That's a long time? 20 A: It's a long time. Of course we met 21 through politics. 22 Q: Yes, and this is North York politics? 23 A: No, no, it was -- 24 Q: Sorry. 25 A: -- we met during a Federal leadership

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1 campaign for the Briesken (phonetic) Conservative party. 2 Q: He -- that is Mr. Godfrey, he got you on 3 the TTC Board in the first place didn't he? 4 A: No, he encouraged me to go for it, but I 5 was running against thirty-three (33) other candidates, and 6 actually part of the reason why I won is I was endorsed by 7 the Toronto Star as the candidate for commissioner. 8 Q: All right, well, just in that -- in that 9 regard, and, Mr. Lyons, can you turn to Volume 2? 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: And go to Tab 6? 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: And this is a -- an article by Mr. Michael 14 Smith, the Toronto Star, April 1st, 1987. 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: And it's again, an interview with you 17 here, talking about you, your wife, your kids and your life 18 in politics. Remember this interview? 19 A: Yeah. Not every detail, but I vaguely 20 remember it. 21 Q: He talks about you being a neighbour of -- 22 of -- of Mr. Godfrey and the godfather of -- that Mr. Godfrey 23 was the godfather of your daughter; is that all right? 24 A: Hmm hmm, yes. 25 Q: And it states in the fifth paragraph from

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1 the bottom: 2 "It was Godfrey's friendship that led Lyons 3 to the TTC's top job." 4 And this is a quote attributed to you: 5 "Paul got me on the Commission originally, 6 Lyons says. He's a terrific guy to have as 7 a friend." 8 A: No question. He led me to it. I'd been 9 -- I'd been on the Zoo Board at that time and I was Vice 10 Chairman of the zoo and I had worked enough on that. So this 11 became available. He encouraged me. He may even have made a 12 few phone calls and this might be a bit of an embellishment 13 by me, but I've got to tell you, I had to go out and campaign 14 myself. I remember that -- 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: -- because I -- it was -- it was thirty- 17 three (33) candidates and one of them was a well-known 18 transit activist that had a lot of support on Council but he 19 is a terrific guy to have as a friend; that part, I agree. 20 Q: A few phone calls by Paul Godfrey doesn't 21 hurt? 22 A: No, it doesn't hurt but -- but I had to do 23 a lot of the work myself. 24 Q: The former CAO, Michael Garrett, gave 25 evidence at the Commission some time ago and he related an

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1 incident where he and Mr. Godfrey were going out to dinner, 2 this is just after amalgamation. 3 A: Yes, I remember. 4 Q: And that unexpectedly Mr. Godfrey brought 5 you along. Is that -- do you have a recollection of that 6 incident? 7 A: Actually -- 8 Q: When I say incident, I don't mean anything 9 pejorative about it but -- 10 A: No, I actually phoned Mike Garrett and 11 invited him out for dinner with Paul and I. I remember that 12 and I -- it's wrong. It's just wrong. I was the one that 13 made the contact and set up the dinner. Paul had never met 14 him, I said let's meet him. I'm going to phone him and he 15 agreed to come out to dinner with us. 16 Q: Wh -- and what is the -- what was the 17 purpose of you and Mr. Godfrey going to meet Mr. Garrett? 18 A: Well, I -- 19 Q: The CAO. 20 A: I wanted to get the measure of the man. 21 He was, you know, an influential guy. He was the CAO of the 22 City and I thought we should get to know him, like what's he 23 all about. So it was sort of what I would do as a person 24 trying to find out how the City functions and, you know, some 25 of the ideas he might have or ideas others might have.

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1 Q: Did that have anything to do with your 2 lobbying business? 3 A: I wasn't -- I wasn't lobbying about 4 anything in particular. 5 Q: No, but just information -- 6 A: Information -- 7 Q: -- gathering. 8 A: Yeah, I was -- 9 Q: Intelligence gathering? 10 A: That would be good, yes. 11 Q: You're just, like you say, getting the 12 measure of the man? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: What was -- I can appreciate that. What 15 was Mr. Godfrey's role here if you just wanted to get a 16 measure of the man? 17 A: I think Garrett wanted to meet Godfrey, 18 that was my impression. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: And, so I figured, you know what, there's 21 nothing to lose by bringing him along but, you know. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Now, did you have occasion during the

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1 ensuing two (2) years to see Mr. Garrett? Get together with 2 Mr. Garrett? 3 A: He was -- yeah, I did but Mike Garrett was 4 a -- remote individual from my recollection. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: He didn't get too involved. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: He didn't or you didn't? 8 Sorry. 9 THE WITNESS: No, I had -- my sense was he 10 didn't get too involved. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm not sure what you 12 mean by that? 13 THE WITNESS: He didn't seem like an involved 14 CAO, that's what I'm -- you know. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I wasn't there so I'm not 16 sure what sense you mean. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, I mean, there -- there are 18 current issues that require at CAO's hand in it. I mean, 19 it's got to -- they're the Chief Administrative Officer of 20 the municipality and a lot of that responsibility rely -- is 21 on his -- it's for him to do and I -- that's just my sense. 22 I didn't know was -- his -- as he was involved as it should 23 have been or could have been or whatever. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES:

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1 Q: How would you know that? 2 A: Just by -- I'm just giving you an 3 observation. 4 Q: Was it based on what anybody told you? 5 A: I think more observation. 6 Q: Did you have discussions with the mayor 7 about the degree of Mr. Garrett's involved. 8 A: No. 9 Q: Or lack of it? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Did you know that what the mayor's view 12 were -- or was on Mr. Garrett? 13 A: I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I think 14 towards the end. I don't think he said this, but I just 15 remember hearing, he sort of lost faith in them, a bit. That 16 was just from my observation, or hearing or whatever. 17 Q: Well, when you said he didn't seem like he 18 was involved, I thought you were -- you were saying that he 19 didn't particularly take to being involved with you and Mr. 20 Godfrey? 21 A: No, no, I think he was just -- we just 22 never saw -- he just wasn't one (1) of those people that you 23 saw around saw around City Hall a lot. He seemed to be 24 remote, that's what I meant. You just couldn't -- 25 Q: I see. All right.

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1 A: -- you wouldn't bump into him, you 2 wouldn't see him, you know. He's just remote. 3 MR. TODD WHITE: Your Honour, if I can -- Mr. 4 Manes has said that he didn't seem to be too involved with 5 Mr. Lyons and Mr. Godfrey. I don't think that was what the 6 evidence was. 7 MR. ROBERT MANES: No, the witness has said, 8 that's not what the evidence was. I was suggesting that that 9 was my impression. The witness has said, no, that wasn't the 10 -- that wasn't what he meant and he's just explaining what he 11 meant was, he wasn't involved with the City -- wasn't around 12 the halls, like other people. Is that right, Mr. -- 13 THE WITNESS: Right. 14 MR. ROBERT MANES: -- Lyons? Sorry. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes, are you going 16 to carry on in this area, or is this a good time for a break? 17 MR. ROBERT MANES: It's a good time for a 18 break. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. We'll break for 20 fifteen (15) minutes. 21 THE REGISTRAR: The Inquiry will recess for 22 until 3:45. 23 24 --- Upon recessing at 3:30 p.m. 25 --- Upon resuming at 3:45 p.m.

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1 THE REGISTRAR: The Inquiry will resume. 2 Please be seated. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr. Manes. 4 MS. DIANA GROSKAUFMANIS: Commissioner? 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Oh, yes? 6 MS. DIANA GROSKAUFMANIS: I'm sorry. I -- I 7 just, before Mr. Manes resumes, I just want to resolve that 8 issue about the confusion about Tabs 18 and 19. 9 I've since spoken with Ms. Hogan and I 10 understand that Tab 18, pages 5 and 6 was sent to all counsel 11 yesterday, by One Hour Courier. Tab 19 was a complete 12 replacement that was sent yesterday by courier. 13 I imagine that most counsel actually had it. 14 There may have been some confusion about replacing pages. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I see. 16 MS. DIANA GROSKAUFMANIS: So, it's all been 17 resolved, now. I also understand, from speaking with Mr. 18 Abella, that he spoke with Mr. White's articling student, Mr. 19 Mullin, yesterday around 7:00. They actually went through -- 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: A.M. or P.M.? Either one 21 (1), that's beyond this timetable. 22 23 MS. DIANA GROSKAUFMANIS: Yes. 7:00 p.m., and 24 they went through -- they went through that binder just to 25 ensure that it -- it was complete.

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1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. 2 MS. DIANA GROSKAUFMANIS: In any event, all of 3 those production issues I now hope have been resolved. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr. Manes? 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 7 Q: We were talking about relationships that 8 you have and we spoke briefly before about your relationship 9 with Jim Andrew? 10 A: Yes, I know Jim Andrew. 11 Q: All right. Executive Director of IT, and 12 established that you had, at that -- at that time, 1999, in 13 any event, several IT clients? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: You would have had contact with Mr. Andrew 16 in relation to those clients? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And in Ms. Cross' notes, Mr. Andrew 19 appears on -- on several occasions. Would that be in 20 relation to contacts with -- with clients, to the best of 21 your knowledge? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: There's -- did you ever give Mr. Andrew 24 tickets to a Raptor's game? Or a hockey game, do you recall? 25 A: It's plausible.

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1 Q: All right. For him or his son? Does that 2 ring a bell? 3 A: No, I knew he had a son, that's possible. 4 Q: The -- if I just might have a moment, 5 there's an entry I want to ask you about, it's about the -- 6 the Brother Jeff Golf Tournament, and maybe without going to 7 that entry, do you recall golfing the foursome with Mr. 8 Andrew? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: At one (1) of your golf tournaments? 11 A: No, I didn't golf with him, I didn't golf 12 even at the golf tournament. I was too busy making it -- 13 making a good event for everybody. 14 Q: The -- if I could read my notation it'd be 15 easier, but as I recall, there's a -- 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Do you need your glasses, 17 Mr. Manes? 18 MR. RONALD MANES: That's a good observation. 19 I had them at one (1) point, but I -- I've gone to this 20 notation -- 21 THE WITNESS: Do you want mine? 22 MR. RONALD MANES: -- and I just want on the 23 record to say that with the correct light I can see this very 24 clearly. 25 THE WITNESS: Do you want them?

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1 MR. RONALD MANES: No, I can -- I'm afraid 2 I'll be able to see through your lenses, Mr. Lyons. 3 If we can go through -- if we go to Tab number 4 -- Tab 7. 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 6 MR. RONALD MANES: Volume 2 -- Volume 1. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Volume 1. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. RONALD MANES: Oh, I'm sorry, it's Tab 12. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay, of the same volume? 13 MR. RONALD MANES: Same volume. Actually it 14 goes over to Tab 13. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 17 Q: But this is a -- from Ms. Liczyk's 18 calendar, it says "Brother Jeff Golf Tournament, Jeff Lyons 19 w...", which I -- I take to mean with Jim Andrew, date 20 Monday, August 16th, 1999, 11:30 to 6:30. Then underneath: 21 "Subject, Brother Jeff Golf Tournament - 22 Jeff Lyons." 23 Again W, J. Andrew. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Can I have the Begdoc 25 numbers for those please.

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1 MR. RONALD MANES: Sorry, 13656 and then if 2 you turn the page, Mr. Lyons, Tab 13. At 13657, just another 3 entry. 4 THE WITNESS: Hmm hmm. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 7 Q: Same thing, "Brother Jeff Golf Tournament 8 - Jeff Lyons w/ Jim Andrew". 9 When I read that, I took it -- I took it to 10 mean that you were golfing with Jim Andrew and Ms. Liczyk, 11 whom we haven't heard from yet, but was -- was either golfing 12 with you or golfing at the same tournament, or at least 13 according to her schedule. 14 Does that help your recollection any or -- 15 A: No, no, I didn't play. I think the first 16 year I had it I played a few holes, and I got too -- too 17 aggravated with things that were going on, and I said, I've 18 got to stop playing, I've got problems here you know, late -- 19 late arrivals and everything else. So I didn't play. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: And I never did the years after. 22 Q: We heard some evidence here that Mr. Domi 23 arranged a meeting between Mr. Godfrey and Mr. Andrew, for a 24 lunch at the King Eddy, in November of 1999, and that lunch 25 had to do with Mr. Andrew's future at the City.

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1 Do you have any knowledge of that at all? 2 A: No. 3 Q: No involvement in that issue? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Do you ever talk to Mr. Andrew -- do you 6 ever talk to Mr. Andrew about what he was going to do when he 7 retired, if he retired, whether he had any aspirations as -- 8 as a commissioner? 9 A: Not that I can recollect. 10 Q: Do you want to take a moment and give it 11 some thought? 12 A: Well, the only recollection I can remember 13 is I think he wanted to be the commissioner, but it never 14 happened. That's just sort of a recollection. 15 Q: Commissioner of...? 16 A: Corporate Services. 17 Q: But do you have a recollection that he 18 spoke with you about wanting to be the Commissioner of 19 Corporate Services? 20 A: Or -- I'm trying to remember. Maybe all 21 he wanted was to be paid more money. I remember he had some 22 issue why he left at the time and I think it was either he 23 wanted more money or he wanted to be Corporate Services 24 Commissioner. That's all I can recollect. 25 Q: Is that -- whatever that issues was,

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1 whether he wanted more money or wanted to become Commissioner 2 of Corporate Services, was that something that you have some 3 recollection that he spoke with you about? 4 A: He might have mentioned it to me. That's 5 the best I can recollect. 6 Q: In either of those areas, could you have 7 been any assistance to Mr. Andrew? 8 A: Not -- certainly not in his salary and 9 Corporate Service Commissioner, I suppose -- I don't know if 10 I could have helped there. I guess if it came to a committee 11 of Council or something which it might be if it's a c -- 12 commissioner, you could speak to a few Councillors. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: And suggest he's good. 15 Q: The bottom line with Mr. Andrew, it was 16 your view that he was good? 17 A: I thought he was very good. He -- he was 18 sort of -- there was a team there. There was him and the 19 other people that worked there and I thought he ran a good 20 team. 21 Q: That team included Lana Viinamae? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: From your own observations, you would 24 consider her good? 25 A: She was excellent. I thought she was the

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  1  nuts and bolts of that department.
  2                 Q:  Did you --
  3  
  4                       (BRIEF PAUSE)
  5  
  6                 Q:  -- encourage the powers to be that Ms.
  7  Viinamae should get Jim Andrew's job, should be Executive
  8  Director of IT?
  9                 A:  Well, she was the interim and then I
 10  thought she would be hired and they didn't and I thought that
 11  made no sense to me whatsoever because everybody applauded
 12  her efforts from the private sector to the public sector.
 13                 Q:  Okay, you thought she was good, to do what
 14  -- whatever you could to encourage whoever you could that she
 15  ought to get Jim's job?
 16                 A:  Well, I did.
 17                 Q:  And who did you speak with?
 18                 A:  Boy, I can't remember all -- appro --
 19  where would that approval go through?  The Administrative
 20  Committee or Policy and Finance?  I can't remember where it
 21  went through or where she started.  I think I spoke to
 22  somebody in the mayor's office, I don't remember who.  
 23                 It wasn't the mayor, it was somebody else.  I
 24  might have spoke to -- I might have spoken to the deputy
 25  mayor.  I can't remember who I spoke to.

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1 Q: The person in the mayor's office, that 2 wouldn't have been Nigro, I take it? 3 A: No, he wasn't even there then. 4 Q: Yeah, that's right. It would have been -- 5 it could have been -- Allen Slobodsky, do you remember? 6 A: Oh, it could have been Rod Phillips. I 7 think he was in charge at those -- in those days. 8 Q: Is that -- 9 A: Or is it -- am I right -- 10 Q: -- the -- 11 A: -- or is it Slobodsky? Now I'm getting 12 confused. 13 Q: All right, well -- 14 A: Well, either one and you know -- 15 Q: In terms of your role as a -- as a 16 lobbyist, what interest did you have in seeing to it, as best 17 as you could, that Ms. Viinamae got Mr. Andrew's job? 18 A: Because, I thought -- listen, you see 19 talent and you've got to recognize -- I thought the City was 20 lucky to have her and I couldn't believe the -- that they 21 wouldn't hire her. So when I heard, I said this doesn't make 22 any sense to me. I mean, I just thought she was very good 23 and everybody told me that about her. It's not as if I ever 24 heard a negative comment. 25 Q: Did you have occasion to speak with the --

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1 with Joan Anderton, Commissioner of Corporate Services, about 2 why Ms. Viinamae didn't get Mr. Andrew's job? 3 A: I might have. I might have. I just can't 4 remember. 5 Q: I -- just let me tell you, I anticipate 6 that if called as a witness that she would testify that -- 7 that you had a discussion with her about why Lana didn't get 8 Jim's job. 9 A: This is -- this is Ms. -- 10 Q: Joan Anderton. 11 A: -- Anderton? 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: Then if she says I called her -- 14 Q: I anticipate that would be her evidence. 15 A: Then I -- then I called her. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: I just don't remember but I'm not going to 18 refute it because I don't have a clear recollection. 19 Q: From the -- from the sound of your 20 evidence, you would agree or disagree with me, you -- you 21 felt strongly that Ms. Viinamae should have that job? 22 A: Right. I'm not sure -- yes. Right. 23 Q: James Ridge. I know that's somebody out 24 of left field for -- for me to ask you about, in terms of a 25 relationship, but you know Mr. Ridge?

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1 A: Not well. I know him. 2 Q: I anticipate that if Mr. Ridge were called 3 as a witness, he would say that -- that you had a meeting 4 with representatives of a wire communications company and 5 yourself, June 14th, 2000. He was the executive lead at 6 telecommunications at the City? 7 A: Yes. So I -- what meeting did I have with 8 him? You said, with wireless companies? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: A wireless company representative? 12 A: Could be. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: That could be. 15 Q: And at that meeting, take your mind back, 16 that was the first time that you had met Mr. Ridge? 17 A: It could be, although -- yes, that could 18 be. 19 Q: He, I anticipate, will say that you took 20 him aside, said some good things about him, you were 21 impressed with him. These all true? That you took him 22 aside, said good things about him? That you were impressed 23 with him? Do you remember that? This is after the meeting, 24 apparently. 25 A: That's -- that's probably true. Or,

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1 that's possibly true. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: I'm not going to -- 4 Q: Had you -- had you heard good things about 5 him, in fact? And were you impressed with him, in fact? 6 A: If I can be very candid with you, Mr. 7 Manes, it was probably selling more than -- 8 Q: Well, the next part you can help me with. 9 I anticipate, then, he's going to say that -- that you told 10 him that you could help him become a commissioner. Do you 11 recall that? 12 A: No. That I don't recall. Mr. Ridge as 13 commissioner? 14 Q: Yes. That's what I anticipate he would 15 say. 16 A: I don't know where he got that from. 17 Q: All right. 18 MR. TODD WHITE: I'd like to know where My 19 Friend got that from. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, I think he just 21 said, he anticipates that Mr. Ridge will testify to that, if 22 he's called, is what he just said. 23 MR. TODD WHITE: Is there some statement we're 24 supposed to have received, or -- 25 MR. RONALD MANES: And when we're in a

178
  1  position to call Mr. Ridge, you will receive -- I'm sorry,
  2  Commissioner, that we will give out the witness statement.  
  3                 And let me tell you what else I anticipate Mr.
  4  Ridge will -- would say --
  5                 THE WITNESS:  But let me just say, I didn't
  6  say that.  That's my recollection.
  7                 MR. RONALD MANES:  I understand that.  Did you
  8  play a role in Paula Dill becoming a Commissioner?
  9                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:  Paula, who?  Sorry.
 10                 MR. RONALD MANES:  Paula Dill, D-I-L-L. 
 11                 THE WITNESS:  I knew her from North York.  I
 12  don't know whether I helped her or not.  I could have, I
 13  could have helped her.  
 14  
 15  CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES:
 16                 Q:  I anticipate Mr. Ridge would -- would say
 17  that when you offered to help him become a Commissioner, you
 18  said that you played a role in Paula Dill becoming a
 19  Commissioner.  Does that help refresh your recollection at
 20  all?
 21                 A:  That might be the case, but not in Mr.
 22  Ridge's case.
 23                 Q:  All right.  
 24                 A:  I did not, I'm going to say emphatically,
 25  ever suggest he'd be the Commissioner.

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1 Q: Now, Mr. Domi. 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: You know Mr. Domi, of course? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Dash Domi? 6 A: Dash Domi. 7 Q: Could you tell us how you know Mr. Domi 8 and when you first met him? 9 A: Mr. Domi, I met in '99, sometime in 10 January or February. I don't know if I met him or spoke to 11 him on the phone. 12 Q: And what would you be speaking to him on 13 the phone about? 14 A: Oh, I think at that time, there was sort 15 of this interest in whether I'd be wanting to do some work 16 for MFP. 17 Q: Was he the first person that contacted 18 you, or had there been other contact? 19 A: There might have been others, but I sort 20 of remember him as -- he wasn't the -- he wasn't a decision 21 maker, but I think he got a hold of me or called me, I can't 22 remember, somebody might have said to me that he was calling 23 me or he wanted to call me. It wasn't something as innocuous 24 as that. 25 Q: In other words, to the best of your

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1 recollection, he would have been the first person that 2 contacted you from MFP? 3 A: Could have been. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think -- okay. Sorry, 5 I thought you said that there might have been others. 6 THE WITNESS: Might have been others. I mean, 7 I'm not sure. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right. 9 THE WITNESS: I mean because he wasn't the one 10 (1) in the end who hired me, so I -- it wasn't like that was 11 important to me. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 14 Q: The -- in terms of the accuracy of your 15 recollection, if you turn to Tab 18 -- 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: -- page number 5. 18 A: Tab 18. 19 A: Just a second, volume -- 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Of which volume? 21 MR. RONALD MANES: I'm sorry, the -- the 22 second volume. 23 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay, page 5, okay. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES:

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1 Q: These are all those telephone calls, and 2 these -- this page 5 are calls from Dash Domi's cell phone to 3 your telephone numbers. 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: See -- see the first call, first row? 6 A: So, it seems like it's February 9th, do 7 you mean? 8 Q: That's -- that's February 9th, 1999, at 9 3:39 in the afternoon there was a call to 368-0600, by Mr. 10 Domi. That number is your number? 11 A: Actually, that's the general office 12 number. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: And I don't know where it went. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: It could have been calling me, or calling 17 my secretary, whatever, I don't know. 18 Q: Did you actually -- when you said you 19 thought you spoke with Mr. Domi in early February, did you 20 actually remember speaking with him directly, or did -- did 21 you speak with him through one (1) of your -- 22 A: I just remember some contact in 23 February -- 24 Q: All right. And then after that particular 25 contact that you had with him, what was your next contact, if

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1 you can recall, with Mr. Domi? 2 A: I don't remember much, other than the fact 3 when I had that meeting, he wasn't -- I didn't hear from him 4 very much, but we had a meeting with MFP when they hired me 5 on March the 16th, and he was at that meeting. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: And that's -- that might have been the 8 first time I met him, because I kept, at the beginning, I 9 even called him Ty all the time, I never remembered his name, 10 and he sort of got offended I think, but -- 11 Q: That meeting is -- is referred to in Ms. 12 Cross' notes. 13 A: That I called him Ty? 14 Q: March 16th -- not that you -- I don't 15 think that you called him Ty, she didn't take that good of 16 notes, but the note that he was there at the meeting, and she 17 commented on -- 18 A: Oh, I see, yes, okay. 19 Q: -- the fact that your relationship 20 appeared professional. 21 Did you have anything to do with Mr. Domi in 22 relation to the leasing RFQ? 23 A: For the City of Toronto? 24 Q: This -- the IT leasing RFQ? 25 A: Not for him. For his company.

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1 Q: For -- 2 A: Not -- you said leasing RFQ for MFP? 3 Q: Yes. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: He said did you have 5 anything to do with -- 6 MR. RONALD MANES: Do with Mr. Domi? 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- Mr. Domi, with respect 8 to this leasing RFQ? 9 THE WITNESS: No, no, I had nothing to do with 10 him about that. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 14 Q: Did you have something to do with Mr. Domi 15 on the fleet leasing RFQ? 16 A: That was some time later when they rehired 17 me. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Did you -- just in relation to that, your 22 relationship with Mr. Domi, did you ever have occasion to 23 speak with Ron Bressler and Mr. Domi at the same time? 24 A: I don't remember that, but I do know Ron 25 Bressler.

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1 Q: What -- what's his -- what's his official 2 title -- 3 A: Well he owns the Budget Franchise for 4 Toronto, doesn't he? I think he does. 5 Q: He certainly owns something with respect 6 to Budget, I don't know if it's -- 7 A: Right, no, he's -- yeah, that's my 8 recollection of Ron Bressler. 9 Q: Did you ever have, as far as you can 10 recollect, ever have dinner with Bressler and Domi? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right, not that -- there's no evidence 13 to that, by the way -- 14 A: No. 15 Q: -- I just asked you the question out of 16 the air? 17 A: No. 18 Q: What was -- what was your role in relation 19 to Bressler and Domi then? 20 A: There was no role. I'm not -- like I'm 21 saying, I know Ron Bressler and that's the only reason you -- 22 Q: Oh, I see. 23 A: -- piqued my interested because I happen 24 to know the man. Not well, but I know him. 25 Q: In relation to -- to your assistance to

185

1 MFP on that fleet leasing RFQ, then, you had no -- nothing to 2 do with Bressler in that context? 3 A: Oh, I see. No, I don't remember that at 4 all. I -- we were just monitoring the issue, really and 5 getting information for them but I don't re -- listen, I 6 mean, if he asked me to call, at that time when they were 7 doing this fleet leasing, to Ron Bressler, I could certainly 8 introduce them but I'm not sure I ever did. 9 Q: All right. I -- 10 A: I just don't recollect that at all. It 11 doesn't -- I don't know. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Excusing me for pausing here. I thought 16 there was a reference to this in Ms. Cross' notes. If I 17 might have a moment. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 MR. FRASER BERRILL: Maybe my -- while Mr. 22 Manes is consulting with Ms. Groskaufmanis, if I could just 23 ask the Commissioner what fleet leasing has to do with the 24 Terms of Reference and why we're talking about this? 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: What -- what has to do

186

1 with it? 2 MR. FRASER BERRILL: Fleet leasing has to 3 do -- 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Fleet leasing? 5 MR. FRASER BERRILL: -- with it in Terms of 6 Reference in this Inquiry. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, we certainly had an 8 awful no -- an awful lot of evidence on it to -- 9 MR. FRASER BERRILL: I realize that. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- to this point. 11 MR. FRASER BERRILL: I realize that. I'm just 12 wondering what it has to do with it? If that question has 13 ever been asked thus far. I mean -- 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Oh. You know what, it -- 15 I -- I remember -- 16 MR. FRASER BERRILL: I'm not -- 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I remember it coming up 18 in Mr. Wolfraim's evidence, in Dash Domi's evidence and in 19 fairness, I think we should -- 20 MR. FRASER BERRILL: I -- I -- 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- fleet -- 22 MR. FRASER BERRILL: I just wonder where he's 23 going. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm just saying in 25 fairness, it's hard to ask him where he's going when you know

187

1 he's talking to somebody else. 2 MR. FRASER BERRILL: I just -- I understand. 3 I was just taking advantage of the stop in the action. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Of him, not me. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MR. FRASER BERRILL: No, of the stop in the 9 action. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I know, I'm just -- I'm 11 just teasing there. 12 MR. FRASER BERRILL: I could never take 13 advantage of Mr. Manes. 14 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: And Commissioner, if I 15 can just offer the City's perspective is that it -- some 16 inquiry into the fleet leasing matter may well shed some 17 light on the relationships that are, in fact, critical to the 18 Terms of Reference. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MR. FRASER BERRILL: My only rejoinder to 23 that, insofar as this witness is concerned, is that this 24 witness has said that he had nothing to do with Mr. Domi 25 insofar as fleet leasing.

188

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, let's see where Mr. 2 Manes is going with his next question. 3 MR. FRASER BERRILL: Very good. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And see if -- I don't 5 even know if he's having any more questions to do with this 6 or if he's looking for something in Ms. Cross' -- 7 MR. FRASER BERRILL: Right. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- book. 9 MR. RONALD MANES: I have found what I -- I 10 need. I put a volume in front of you. It's Mr. Domi's -- 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Domi's? 12 MR. RONALD MANES: Mr. Domi's evidence, Volume 13 1 at Tab 8. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes, it would be 15 helpful if you could let me know as well, because I have to 16 get it as well. 17 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. No, Volume 1, Tab 8, 18 Commissioner. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: What's the Begdoc number 23 of whatever you're going to be looking at? 24 MR. RONALD MANES: I actually don't have a 25 binder in front of me.

189

1 THE WITNESS: We actually have it in these 2 ones, too. It's in one of mine too. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. It's 29201, which 4 is the Request for Proposals for vehicle fleet lease 5 financing. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 8 Q: Mr. Lyons, have you ever seen this 9 document before? 10 A: No. 11 Q: It's marked in the lower right corner, 12 Draft 3-B, January 27th, 2000. 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 19 Q: There -- we have evidence here that this 20 was found in -- in Mr. Domi's file. So I take it from your 21 evidence, you would have no knowledge, information or belief 22 as to how this would get into his file? 23 A: No, I've never seen it before. 24 Q: All right. 25

190

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: There's some handwriting 4 in this document, isn't there? Mr. Manes, could you -- 5 MR. RONALD MANES: Commissioner, we will file 6 an -- 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I was just wondering if 8 you wanted to ask Mr. Lyons if he recognized the handwriting. 9 MR. RONALD MANES: Oh, yes. All right. I 10 know what the affidavit's going to say, but I'll -- do you -- 11 there's handwriting and if you'd like to look at page 27, for 12 example. 13 THE WITNESS: Oh, page 27? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Do you recognize that 18 handwriting, at all? 19 THE WITNESS: No. It's not my handwriting, is 20 it? No. I don't think that's my handwriting. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 23 Q: Let's just have one (1) other page for 24 you, in terms of the Commissioner's question, at page 24? 25 The handwriting at 27 is 29233, and it says, 'budget'. And

191

1 then at 24 it says, "MFP". 2 Again, that's not your handwriting and you 3 don't recognize whose handwriting it is? 4 A: No, I don't know what -- 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Why would I have budget in this thing? 9 Cost effective budget. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Sorry? 11 THE WITNESS: Oh, I see. Budget Rent-a-Car, 12 you're talking about. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 15 Q: Yes, that's what I -- 16 A: Oh, I see. Okay. You know what? As soon 17 as you told me that -- I didn't know that Budget was even 18 involved. 19 Q: All right. Can I take you to Tab 21? 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Of? 21 MR. RONALD MANES: I'm just looking right now. 22 Your Volume 1. 23 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

192

1 THE WITNESS: Tab 21. Yes, February 26th, 2 2001? 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 5 Q: Yes, that's Begdoc Number 40426? 6 A: Right, right. 7 Q: And this is to Dash Domi and Vince Nigro? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: From Jeff S. Lyons? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And the comments underneath this are as 12 follows? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: "I am attaching herewith a copy of page 15 10 of the report entitled, 'Strengthening 16 the new City of Toronto (Single City 17 Savings Task Force)'. When they looked at 18 corporate fleet leasing and maintenance 19 garages, they also explored fleet leasing. 20 This is a 'mantra' that you could use in 21 your future deputation discussions, et 22 cetera." 23 And that's sent by -- sent by you. Do you 24 recall sending that? 25 A: Yes. And I remember getting that report

193

1 at City Hall. And it was sort of a new report that come out. 2 And I thought -- I sent it to actually a number of my 3 clients, where I saw opportunities for them, and they were 4 one (1). 5 Q: But the opportunity you saw for MFP, had 6 to do with the corporate fleet and maintenance garages? 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Could you explain that? 9 A: I don't remember much. I remember this 10 report, because it -- I had interest in it for a -- from a 11 number of clients. But they were looking at fleet leasing 12 and I guess they must have mentioned something about -- I 13 don't know. That's all it says. I mean, I really remember 14 it more than that. 15 I'd have to see the report to figure out any 16 more, but, no, I'm not -- the fleet leasing reporting. 17 Q: But that report -- 18 A: Not the fleet leasing, the new City of 19 Toronto, I mean, report. 20 Q: That report, just -- just for your -- 21 Commissioner's assistance, that's in Tab 1, 40427. 22 A: Of which? 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: That report that he's 24 talking about -- 25 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes.

194

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- is at Tab 1, Mr. 2 Lyons. 3 THE WITNESS: Oh, this -- I always wondered 4 what that document was. Okay. 5 MR. RONALD MANES: Now, we -- we've got -- 6 we've got one (1) page of it. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, what's -- what did you -- 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 13 Q: The -- where it relates -- where this memo 14 relates to maintenance garages, what my question is, is this, 15 This draft RFQ, January 27th, 2000 that Mr. Domi has in his 16 file, and got this handwriting on. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Is it an RFQ or an RFP? 18 MR. RONALD MANES: RFP. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 22 Q: Mr. Domi has in his file, it in part 23 relates to maintenance garages, and I was wondering whether 24 you had any discussions with Mr. Domi or Mr. Nigro in 25 relation to the RFP when it finally came out, and the issue

195

1 of maintenance garages; to the best you can recall? 2 A: Just can you take me back to that memo I 3 sent them, what Tab were you -- 4 Q: Yes, it's Tab 21. 5 A: -- 21, okay. Because if I was looking at 6 this, this is dated a year later from your RFP isn't it, or 7 RFQ? 8 Q: Yes, the -- in fact this -- that was just 9 a draft RFP it didn't come out until I believe June of 2001. 10 A: Oh, okay. 11 Q: So, that was just the draft that I showed 12 you, and you -- you said you hadn't seen it, and I'm now 13 asking you about this -- 14 A: I don't -- I don't remember the details, I 15 think I saw it about fleet leasing and they were interested. 16 You mentioned about maintenance garages. I knew they were 17 interested in this issue, we were monitoring it, and when I 18 went over and got this report I just sent it to them, and I 19 said, there's some good ideas. 20 I forgot what else I said. Well, this is what 21 they can use, their mantra I said, is to talk about the 22 single savings of the task force, or the strength of the City 23 of Toronto, because this was the idea, this was supposed to 24 be where Toronto's going in the future. 25 So, let's talk about fleet leasing, let's look

196

1 at that, and I was trying to tell him how to sell it, use 2 this report to get everybody listening to you. 3 Q: The -- and just in terms of you -- your 4 working with Mr. Domi to the extent that you can remember, 5 we've heard evidence here that on one (1) occasion you and 6 Mr. Domi and Mr. Nigro, I think it's -- it's -- I'll give you 7 the exact date, January 10th, 2001, went to Montreal -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- flew to Montreal to see the President 10 of Via Rail? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: All right. Now, from what I recall Mr. 13 Nigro's evidence, and I'll ask you about your relationship 14 with him next. 15 His evidence was that basically Mr. Domi went 16 for the ride, it was really you were setting that meeting up 17 for Mr. Nigro to speak with -- 18 A: That's true. 19 Q: -- the President of Via Rail? 20 A: That's true, it was more Mr. Nigro, if I 21 recall. He was doing the Federal accounts, I think that was 22 his role at -- at MFP. And Via's a Federal agency. 23 Q: Did you ever deal with Mr. Nigro in terms 24 of the City of Toronto account at all? 25 A: Mr. Nigro on the City of Toronto? You

197

1 mean at the time they were bidding for it? 2 Q: No, just while you were at MFP and Mr. 3 Nigro was at MFP, after September of 2000 -- 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: He wasn't at MFP. 5 MR. RONALD MANES: Mr. Nigro? 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Lyons. You said, 7 while Mr. Lyons was at MFP -- 8 THE WITNESS: Well -- 9 MR. RONALD MANES: Mr. Lyons was a consultant 10 with MFP -- 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right. 12 MR. RONALD MANES: -- what I mean is -- 13 THE WITNESS: No, the only time I remember 14 Vince Nigro calling me is when they had that problem with the 15 photocopiers, and I think I received several calls, he might 16 have been one (1) I received that day. And he might have 17 been doing it for Vince, not for Vince, what's his name, 18 Dash. I don't know. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 21 Q: Other than that, you had no dealings with 22 him on anything to do with the City of Toronto? 23 A: Not -- not the City of Toronto. I mean, I 24 don't think he was involved in the fleet leasing, unless he 25 was. It's possible. I think I sent them both that report.

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1 Q: Yes, you did. That's the one at -- 2 A: Right. 3 Q: -- Tab 21, 40426. 4 A: I mean, they -- they worked a lot together 5 so it wouldn't surprise me. 6 Q: All right. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes, are you going 8 into a whole new area? 9 MR. RONALD MANES: No, I'm just going to 10 finish off -- 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Oh, are you? 12 MR. RONALD MANES: -- this area if I could, -- 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes. 14 MR. RONALD MANES: -- Commissioner? I just 15 want to take Mr. Lyons to these telephone calls. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 18 Q: Could you take -- could you get Mr. Lyons 19 Volume 2. 20 A: Yes, I've got it here actually. Are you 21 at page -- 22 Q: Are you anticipating me? 23 A: -- 18? No, no. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: I just happen to have it open here with

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1 the question you asked me a few minutes back. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: So I still have it. 4 Q: If you have it -- you happen to have it 5 open at Tab 18, Page 3. 6 A: Oh, Page 3. No, I didn't have that. 7 Q: All right. These are calls from you to 8 Mr. Nigro and they start July 4th, 2000. 9 A: Right. 10 Q: There's seventeen (17) calls and they go 11 to December 11th, 2001. 12 A: Right. 13 Q: These -- all relatively short calls, 14 you'll see. There's a couple in there that are a minute -- 15 almost two (2) minutes and then -- 16 A: Can I give you an explanation for that? 17 Q: Sure. 18 A: He never answers his cell phone, so you're 19 only leaving him a message. 20 Q: All right. Was -- Call 153 which is five 21 (5) down, is that a long message or did you finally catch 22 him? 23 A: No, that might have -- it could have been 24 a long message or me -- I caught him. 25 Q: Now, your relationship with Mr. Nigro is

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1 somebody that was know to you while he was at the City? 2 A: I met him during the first campaign for 3 the mayor. 4 Q: That's, what, 1997? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: What was his role in that campaign? 7 A: He was -- he was sort of organizing in the 8 west end of the City for the mayor. 9 Q: Did you get to know him or -- 10 A: I -- 11 Q: -- cordial with him? 12 A: Yeah, he's -- he's friendly. I was 13 friendly with him. 14 Q: Did he ever discuss with you what -- was 15 he doing that job full time? 16 A: For the mayor? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: No, he had some other job but I can't 19 remember. 20 Q: Did he ever talk to you about what he was 21 going to do after the mayor's campaign, especially if the 22 mayor won? 23 A: No, we didn't get into it. He was very 24 involved with the Federal Liberal party, if I recall. 25 Q: All right.

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1 A: That's why I probably never met him 2 before. 3 Q: Did you have any discussions with him that 4 you can recall in between January and August 1999? 5 A: You're asking me if I had any 6 conversations with him? 7 Q: With Mr. Nigro. 8 A: I could have. 9 Q: All right. Do -- did you have any 10 conversations with Mr. Nigro at any time in respect to the 11 leasing RFQ at the City? 12 A: The same that's the subject matter here? 13 This leasing -- 14 Q: Yeah, exactly. 15 A: No. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 MR. RONALD MANES: Commissioner, it's the end 20 of the day and -- 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 22 MR. RONALD MANES: -- that's the end of this 23 area. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. 25

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1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. We're done 4 and we'll be back on Monday morning at ten o'clock. All 5 right? All right. 6 7 (WITNESS RETIRES) 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: Order. The Inquiry is 10 adjourned until ten o'clock on Monday. 11 12 --- Upon Adjourning at 4:30 p.m. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Certified Correct, 20 21 22 23 ________________________ 24 Carol Geehan 25 Court Reporter