1 2 3 4 TORONTO COMPUTER LEASING INQUIRY 5 6 7 8 ******************** 9 10 11 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE MADAM JUSTICE DENISE BELLAMY, 12 COMMISSIONER 13 14 15 16 17 Held at: East York Civic Centre 18 850 Coxwell Avenue 19 Toronto, Ontario 20 M4C 5R1 21 22 ******************** 23 24 25 May 6th, 2003

2
  1                        APPEARANCES
  2  Ronald Manes            )Commission Counsel 
  3  Patrick Moore  (np)     )
  4  Daina Groskaufmanis     ) 
  5  Linda Rothstein         )City of Toronto 
  6  Lily Harmer    (np)     )
  7  Robert Centa    (np)    )
  8  Gordon Capern  (np)     )
  9  David Moore    (np)     )MFP 
 10  Fraser Berrill  (np)    ) 
 11  Ken Jones      (np)     ) 
 12  Brian Heller   (np)     )Ball Hsu and Associates Ltd.
 13  Melissa Kronick (np)    )CUPE 
 14  Raj Anand      (np)     )Lana Viinamae
 15  Bay Ryley      (np)     )
 16  William Anderson (np)   )Wanda Liczyk
 17  Valerie Dyer            )Dell Computers
 18  Jennifer Lynch   (np)   )
 19  Edward Greenspan (np)   )Jeff Lyons
 20  Todd White              )
 21  Hugh MacKenzie  (np)    )Jim Andrew
 22  Jennifer Searle         )
 23  Bryan McPhadden (np)    )Brendan Power
 24  
 25  Joyce Ihamaki           )Registrar

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 4 4 5 SUSAN PATRICA CROSS, Sworn 6 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Ronald Manes 5 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Valerie Dyer 104 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer Searle 107 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Todd White 112 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Linda Rothstein 119 11 12 Certificate of Transcript 122 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 31 Bound document titled 37 4 "Susan Cross" tabs 1-14 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 10:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: The Inquiry is now in session. 4 Please be seated. 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Good morning. Mr. Manes? 6 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MR. RONALD MANES: Good morning, Ms. Cross. 11 MS. SUSAN CROSS: Good morning. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Has she been sworn yet? 13 Has the witness been sworn? 14 MR. RONALD MANES: I -- I think -- no and 15 we're about to -- 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 17 MR. RONALD MANES: -- do that right now. Are 18 we, Madam Registrar? 19 20 SUSAN PATRICA CROSS, Sworn; 21 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. There's a 23 stool under there if you prefer. Would you like that? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: It might help a bit. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. RONALD MANES: 8 Q: Ms. Cross, why don't we talk about your 9 background just for a little bit. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: What do you do for a living? 12 A: I'm the executive assistant to Councillor 13 Jane Pitfield. 14 Q: And you've been with Councillor Pitfield 15 as an executive assistant for about two (2) years? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: May 1st, you started, of 2001? 18 A: No, it was probably closer to May 21st. 19 Q: All right and prior to that, you were with 20 Ketchum Canada Limited? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And how long were you with Ketchum Canada 23 Limited? 24 A: About five (5) months. 25 Q: All right and that would be approximately

1 December to May? 2 A: December to May, yes. 3 Q: All right but that'd be December of 2000 4 to May of 2001? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: All right and prior to -- to that, you 7 were employed by Morrison Brown and Sosnovitch? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And what was your position at Morrison 10 Brown and Sosnovitch? 11 A: I was the executive assistant to Jeff 12 Lyons -- Jeffrey Lyons. 13 Q: And you were Mr. Lyons' executive 14 assistant for about two (2) and a half years? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: All right. August '98 to December 2000, 17 approximately? 18 A: Yes, that's correct. 19 Q: In fact, if I read my notes here, it was 20 December 6th, 2000? 21 A: December 6th, yes. 22 Q: All right. How did you get the job with 23 Mr. Lyons? 24 A: I was working in -- at Queens Park at that 25 time and was involved with the Ontario Progressive

1 Conservative Youth Party -- the Youth Association, sorry and 2 I knew his son Stuart and another friend of Stuart's, Lalid 3 Solomon (phonetic), and they knew that I was a little bored 4 where I was. I was a general assistant to a back-bencher and 5 they had said that Stuart's dad was looking for someone, sort 6 of, to help him because things were getting a little busy and 7 asked if I would be interested in putting my resume in and I 8 said yes. 9 Q: Now, Stuart would be Stuart Lyons? 10 A: Stuart Lyons, yes. 11 Q: Did he work for his -- for his dad? 12 A: To my recollection, he was -- he had spent 13 the summer with his dad. He was just about to start 14 articling, I believe. 15 Q: All right. Was it his position that you 16 took over? 17 A: He was doing some of the things that I 18 would be doing so I took it to mean that I would be sort of 19 continuing where Stuart had sort of started. 20 Q: All right. Had you ever worked in an 21 office before? 22 A: Not in a -- in a formal setting. I had 23 done some co-op work but nothing formal in an office, no. 24 Q: The co-op work, if I understand it in 25 terms of your education, you received your Bachelor of Arts

1 degree in 1996 from Guelph? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And that was in history and political 4 science? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And then 1997, you received a certificate 7 in corporate communications from Seneca? 8 A: Yes, I did. 9 Q: And it was at Seneca you did a co-op 10 program? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: All right. Other than that, you had no -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- office experience? 15 A: That -- that's t -- that's correct. 16 Q: Now, your relationship with Mr. Lyons, how 17 would you describe it? 18 A: Oh, very good. Very, very -- I was with 19 him a lot and he was -- we were very -- I viewed him -- our 20 relationship was very close. 21 Q: All right and when you left Mr. Lyons to 22 go with Ketchum Canada in or around December of 2000, did you 23 leave on good terms? 24 A: We left on very good terms. 25 Q: Your arrangement with Mr. Lyons -- your

1 financial arrangement was salary plus a bonus? 2 A: The second year there was a bonus, yes. 3 Q: And there was a discretionary bonus? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And did you receive that -- 6 A: I received -- 7 Q: -- bonus -- 8 A: -- most of it, but not all of it because I 9 didn't stay for the duration of -- of the year. 10 Q: And I understand that -- that you started 11 out at about thirty thousand dollars ($30,000) a year and 12 with the bonus, when you left you were at forty-four thousand 13 (44,000)? 14 A: Forty-four (44). That's correct. 15 Q: All right. Now, Ketchum Canada, was that 16 a company involved in fundraising? 17 A: It was a -- they -- it was a private 18 company that did fundraising for -- not for profits. 19 Q: All right and when -- that was in 20 Kitchener, as I -- 21 A: I was in -- they are based in Toronto but 22 I was on-site in Kitchener. 23 Q: Yes and when things did not go as well you 24 had hoped, you didn't enjoy the job as much as you thought, 25 did you contact Mr. Lyons?

11
  1                 A:  Jeff and I were in contact, sort of,
  2  frequently and he asked how things were going one day and I
  3  said, oh, they're -- they're going and he at that point sort
  4  of figured that I wasn't, I guess, as happy as I could be and
  5  said well -- then he -- I think at that point if he heard
  6  anything, he'd let me know.
  7                 Q:  And did he let you know?
  8                 A:  He said that the Blue Jays Foundation was
  9  looking for some foundation staff and considering that I left
 10  him to do fundraising thought this would be something I would
 11  be interested in.  I did go for an interview, but they were
 12  looking for more of an executive director, which was not my
 13  level.
 14                 Q:  All right.  And did he recommend any other
 15  job to you?
 16                 A:  I believe it was Jeff speaking with a
 17  counsellor, is how I found out that Councillor Pitfield was
 18  looking for someone.
 19                 Q:  And he told you about the --
 20                 A:  He told me that a Councillor would be
 21  calling to, sort of, give me details.
 22                 Q:  And that was Councillor Pitfield?
 23                 A:  Councillor Soknacki actually called first
 24  and then sort of then -- I think to feel me out and then I
 25  spoke with Jane.

1 Q: But, the lead so to speak, was through Mr. 2 Lyons? 3 A: Yes, the lead was through Mr. Lyons. 4 Q: All right. Can you describe your job 5 generally with Mr. Lyons? 6 A: My general duties were to take notes in 7 meetings. Attend committee meetings, all the committee 8 meetings of Council, attend Council meetings, attend meetings 9 with Jeff and clients, Jeff and politicians. 10 At the meetings with Jeff and politicians, or 11 Jeff and clients, my job was to write down basically what was 12 going on so we would have a record for further action. 13 And at Council meetings, I would monitor them 14 in Council and committee meetings, I would monitor them. And 15 sort of, make sure that if any of our client's issues were on 16 the agenda, follow what happened, what motions were made, 17 what motions weren't made, who -- how the votes went and 18 report back. 19 So, the client didn't always have to be at a 20 committee meeting all day or didn't have to be at a Council 21 meeting, for three (3) days. I was there instead. 22 Q: All right. When Mr. Lyons was having a 23 meeting that you were attending and there were financial 24 matters that were being discussed, were you privy to those 25 financial matters?

1 A: No, I was not. I was usually asked to 2 leave. 3 Q: All right. And just on that note, when 4 you say, you were usually asked to leave, was there any 5 occasion where you observed Mr. Lyons -- 6 MR. TODD WHITE: Commissioner, is My Friend -- 7 I take it My Friend is talking about meetings that Mr. Lyons 8 would have with clients to discuss retainers, I take it 9 that's what you're talking about? 10 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay, that wasn't clear, 12 Mr. Manes. 13 MR. RONALD MANES: All right. Sorry. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think you said where 15 financial matters were discussed, so maybe could you make 16 that clearer? 17 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 20 Q: We were talking about meetings with 21 clients? 22 A: Meetings with clients, I was -- and I said 23 usually asked to leave. I was always asked to leave. I was 24 not privy to any type of financial discussion. 25 Q: All right. Did you attend any fund

1 raisers on occasion? 2 A: I did attend fund raisers with Mr. Lyons. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: And the odd time on my own if there was 5 conflicts in Mr. Lyons schedule. 6 Q: What kind of fund raisers would those be? 7 Could you give us an example? 8 A: They were usually municipal politician's 9 or provincial politician's fund raisers. And on one (1) 10 occasion a -- the Walk of Fame gala fund raiser. 11 Q: Right. A charity. 12 A: A charity fund raiser. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes, I'm not sure 14 you're going to get into this, but, I'm not sure if Ms. Cross 15 was working for Mr. Lyons in his capacity as a lawyer, as a 16 lobbyist, or both. 17 MR. RONALD MANES: I was going to get into 18 that. I'll get into that right -- right now. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: It was just when it was 20 discussions with clients, I didn't know if that meant, legal 21 clients or clients from their lobbying component. 22 MR. RONALD MANES: All right. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 25 Q: You received your pay cheque from the law

1 firm? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: Morrison, Brown and Sosnovitch? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And you did all of your work 6 for Mr. Lyons? 7 A: Yes, I did. 8 Q: Do you know whether Mr. Lyons was a 9 partner in that law firm, or had some other kind of 10 relationship in that law firm? 11 A: I believe he was the Counsel. 12 Q: He was a Counsel. 13 A: For the law firm and I -- my recollection 14 is that he was not a partner at the firm. 15 Q: The files that were opened, did you open 16 files? 17 A: No, I did not. 18 Q: Who would have done that? 19 A: Whomever had the administrative assistant 20 position, at the time. 21 Q: All right. That would have been who? 22 A: Gail -- 23 Q: In -- 24 A: When I first started, it was Gail 25 Miltonberg, but she retired. And then they had a couple

1 before we ended up with a permanent one of Fiona Kelly. 2 Q: Then there was Gail Smith, and then there 3 was Fiona Kelly? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Is there at the present? Those were 6 administrative assistants? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And do you, to the best of 9 your knowledge, were those paid -- were those assistants paid 10 by the law firm? 11 A: I believe they were. I couldn't tell you 12 100 percent, I'm not -- I don't know the details of their -- 13 Q: All right. And in terms of the -- the 14 files that were opened, were they opened in a -- in a 15 particular kind of way, with respect to clients? 16 Let me be -- let me be specific. Were there 17 files that were opened for -- under Morris -- Morrison Brown 18 and Sosnovitch, and there were files opened under a numbered 19 company? 20 A: That's -- yes, that's how we worked it. 21 Q: All right. Now, when you say, that's how 22 we worked it, how did that work? How was it determined 23 whether files would be opened under Morrison Brown and 24 Sosnovitch, and whether files would be opened under the 25 numbered company?

1 A: I'm not sure what the rational was for 2 some under the law firm, and some not. 3 Q: Was it -- did you have an understanding as 4 to whether Mr. Lyons was doing legal work for any clients? 5 A: Could you repeat that? 6 Q: Did you have an understanding as to 7 whether Mr. Lyons was doing legal work for any clients? 8 A: Oh. I -- I was not involved in any of the 9 legal work, if he as doing any legal work. I was usually 10 involved in the Government relations. 11 Q: Lobbying? 12 A: Lobbying. 13 Q: All right. Well, to the best of your 14 knowledge, was -- was anyone involved with Mr. Lyons in doing 15 legal work? 16 A: There were some client that the law firm 17 did legal work for. And when Jeff met with them initially, 18 he would refer the -- the legal work to the firm. 19 Q: I see. To the best of your knowledge, 20 would Mr. Lyons actually do the legal work, or would the -- 21 the law firm do the legal work? 22 A: The law firm did the legal work. 23 Q: Did you, in your position, consider Mr. 24 Lyons when he was conducting business, conducting business as 25 a lawyer, or a lobbyist?

1 A: I didn't really distinguish the two (2). 2 He was a lawyer, and did lobbying. 3 Q: All right. Where were the -- the files, 4 Mr. Lyons' files, kept? 5 A: They were kept in the filing cabinet, or 6 two (2) filing cabinets back to back, behind where the 7 administrative assistant sat. 8 Q: Were those locked, or unlocked files? 9 A: Unlocked. 10 Q: Now, when you say that the files were kept 11 behind where the administrative assistant sat, is that both 12 the Morris -- Morrison Brown Sosnovitch files that Mr. Lyons 13 was opening, and the numbered company files Mr. Lyons was 14 opening? 15 A: Yes, they were both in filing cabinets. 16 Q: Did Mr. Lyons keep any files in his 17 office? 18 A: Maybe one (1) or two (2), if they were 19 actively being worked on. I couldn't tell you any more than 20 that. 21 Q: Other than that, then all the files were 22 kept in that central location -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- behind the administrative assistant. 25 And when the files were old, or had to be dead suited, or

1 sent to storage, where were they sent? 2 A: Whichever storage facility Morrison Brown 3 Sosnovitch used. 4 Q: All right. When you left -- let me -- 5 before I ask you that question. Where there separate files 6 for Dell Computer, Dell Financial Services? 7 A: Yes, there were. 8 Q: Did you consider them as separate legal 9 entities, and separate clients? 10 A: I did consider them separate clients. 11 Q: And as far as you know, did Mr. Lyons 12 treat them as separate clients? 13 A: They were -- yes, he did. 14 Q: All right. And when you left, did you 15 leave those files behind? 16 A: Yes, they were left behind. 17 Q: There was a separate file open for MFP, of 18 course? 19 A: Yes, a separate file for MFP. 20 Q: We have here, on the table, as I 21 understand it, fifteen (15) notebooks that you -- that were 22 used by you at the firm? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And could you describe, generally, what 25 those notebooks consist of?

1 A: The notebooks consist of phone messages 2 that I may have received, phone messages forwarded to me by 3 Jeff and active message that I took while on the phone, notes 4 from committee meetings, notes from Council meetings, notes 5 from meetings with clients, personal reminders to myself. 6 They were just, sort of, my day. Anything 7 that transpired during my day that I had to write down are in 8 those books. 9 Q: Now, you described them to Commission 10 Counsel as rough notes. Did you ever expect that anybody 11 would want to see these notes? 12 A: No, they were my rough notes. I admit 13 that they're not that legible anymore but they were never 14 intended to be seen or used by anyone other than myself. 15 Q: Now, when you would take notes at a 16 meeting, for example, what would you -- what would you do 17 after the meeting with respect to your rough notes? 18 A: Oh, I -- if they were on -- sometimes, if 19 I was in between meetings, I would use like a foolscap or 20 just single sheets of paper and they would be thrown away but 21 meeting notes that were in the books remained there because I 22 didn't rip them out, I didn't throw the books away. 23 Q: Did -- but how, if at all, were they -- 24 were these rough notes that you took translated and -- and -- 25 A: Oh, oh. Sorry.

1 Q: -- put into a file? 2 A: Sorry. Either the day of the meeting or 3 within the week depending on how busy that week was, I would 4 type up the rough notes into a memo format, ha -- provide 5 them to Mr. Lyons to read over and make sure that everything 6 that I put in the memo was correct, make any alterations or 7 corrections that he wanted and then they would be put in the 8 client's file. 9 Q: All right. Now, you would make 10 alterations and corrections on the memo but you would not 11 make alterations and corrections on your rough notes? 12 A: No, my rough notes remained rough notes. 13 Q: All right. Now, as -- as I understand it, 14 many of the entries in your notes are undated? 15 A: There are some that are undated and some 16 that are not dated on the page. 17 Q: All right and would you -- the books 18 themselves are not dated on the cover of the books? 19 A: No -- 20 Q: In other words, particular months or 21 years? 22 A: Most are not. The odd one might be. 23 Q: All right. Now, were the notes verbatim? 24 A: No, they were not. 25 Q: Did you take shorthand or speed writing or

1 anything like that? 2 A: Never took a formal course in shorthand or 3 speed writing. I created my own version as I went along. 4 Q: All right. As I understand it from 5 discussing this with you that there was -- you didn't 6 editorialize in your notes, just wrote down as best -- what 7 you heard? 8 A: I wrote down best what I heard when there 9 were six (6) or seven (7) people in a meeting talking. 10 Q: And when there were six (6) or seven (7) 11 people that were in a meeting that were talking and you were 12 trying to take down what, basically, they were saying, in 13 your notes would you say who said what? 14 A: Sometimes I might make a reference to it 15 but -- and sometimes I wouldn't. It depends on how fast 16 paced the meeting was going. 17 Q: Now, sometimes, as I understand it, you 18 didn't use your spiral binders. You used a looseleaf binder 19 when you didn't have a spiral binder? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And we don't have th -- those were 22 discarded? 23 A: Those would have been discarded, yes. 24 Q: All right. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Now, these -- these books -- the physical 4 books, as I understand it, you purchased those at Grand and 5 Toy with the exception of two (2) that I'll discuss in a 6 second? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Why did you purchase your own notebooks 9 when you worked for Morrison Brown and Sosnovitch? 10 A: Because they didn't order through Grand 11 and Toy. They ordered through Dye & Durham and I just had a 12 personal preference for the Grand and Toy books and colours. 13 Q: All right. Did you pay for those 14 yourself? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: Did you seek any reimbursement from 17 Morrison Brown and Sosnovitch? 18 A: No, I did not. 19 Q: All right. Now, there were two (2) books 20 there that you told us were from Morrison Brown and 21 Sosnovitch stock? 22 A: Most -- yes, most likely, because that's 23 the type of books that they ordered, the spiral type binders. 24 Not binders, notebooks. 25 Q: All right. Now, after you were all done

1 with completing your spiral notebook there, what did you do 2 with it? 3 A: I put them in a drawer. 4 Q: Did you refer back to them for anything? 5 A: From time to time, I would, if there was a 6 phone message or a phone number in there, and sometimes I 7 would try to put them into the -- my Rolodex, whether it's a 8 handwritten, if I didn't have a card for someone. 9 And sometimes I didn't, so the books were 10 always there as a reference point to go back and look up 11 phone numbers. 12 Q: Did anybody else request to see them, or 13 want to use them? 14 A: No, no one else requested them. 15 Q: Now, when you left the employ of Morrison 16 Brown and Sosnovitch, and Mr. Lyons in December of 2000, to 17 go with Ketchum, what did you do in respect to those books, 18 Ms. Cross? 19 A: I put them in a box with some other 20 personal things from the office and brought them home to my 21 apartment. 22 Q: What other things are you talking about? 23 A: A mug, my degree that I had sitting in the 24 office, some posters that I had originally had planned to put 25 up on the wall but never go around to it.

1 Q: Did you consider the notebooks personal? 2 A: I did, yes. 3 Q: All right. When you took your personal 4 affects home, including the notes, well, I shouldn't say 5 home, I understand your took them to your parents -- your 6 grandparents? 7 A: No -- 8 Q: Or your parents? 9 A: -- no I took them to my apartment, and 10 then I was shortly moving. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: After that I put them in my parent's 13 basement. 14 Q: And what -- was there anything else of 15 your in your parent's basement, other than these notes? 16 A: Everything else that I keep is in my 17 parents basement. 18 Q: Without going through an exhaustive list, 19 university notes, essays, texts, your prom dress, all of your 20 memorabilia is stored down there? 21 A: Yes, it is. 22 Q: When you took those notes, did you think 23 you were doing anything wrong? 24 A: No, I honestly did not believe that by me 25 taking these notes, I was violating anything. I honestly

1 thought that everybody who kept such notes, when they left an 2 office, took them home with them. 3 Q: Now, at some point, when you were being 4 interviewed on, what we now know to be the second Inquiry, 5 you told Commission Counsel about these books. 6 And Commission Counsel requested that you get 7 them all together and go through them? 8 A: Yes, that's true. 9 Q: To see if there's any relevant entries to 10 this Inquiry? 11 A: Yes, I was asked to do so. 12 Q: All right. And I understand that in doing 13 that you worked with Ms. Groskaufmanis? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: For a long time? 16 A: For a while. 17 Q: All right. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Now, having looked through all of those 22 notes, the originals and fifteen (15) spiral notebooks, do 23 you have any independent recollection of any of those 24 entries? 25 A: Some I recall, most I do not.

1 Q: And the ones that you recall, are you 2 able, in those ones to identify the speaker in a meeting? 3 A: No, I guess I should rephrase the -- the 4 notes that I do recall in my notebooks, most of them are more 5 personal nature. I don't think I understood -- answered you 6 correctly. 7 Q: I'm sorry? 8 A: When I said that I recalled some of the 9 notes and not all, the notes that I do recall are personal 10 notes that are included in the notes, not -- the majority, if 11 not all of the meeting notes, I do not recall. 12 Q: Now, as I understand it, Ms. Groskaufmanis 13 would show you the notes and ask you whether that refreshed 14 your recollection of a meeting, et cetera and you were unable 15 to -- those notes were unable to assist you in refreshing any 16 recollection? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And also, as I understand it, you and Ms. 19 Groskaufmanis attempt to go through those notes and decipher 20 your handwriting, and prepare a transcript to the extent that 21 you were able to, deciphering that handwriting? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: All right. And we'll -- may have to do 24 just a little bit more deciphering today, but hopefully not 25 much.

1 And as I understand it, as well, in some of 2 those notes, you were at least able to give a context, a very 3 general context as to why a particular meeting was happening 4 in the first place? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: All right. 7 MR. RONALD MANES: Commissioner, as I 8 understand it, the process that Ms. Groskaufmanis went 9 through with other counsel, and then I'll talk about Mr. 10 Mullin at Mr. White's office in particular; was to identify 11 all relevant entries with Ms. Cross' assistance, in terms of 12 deciphering, and gain an agreement with counsel to remove all 13 confidential information that was not relevant to the 14 Inquiry. 15 And that has been -- that has been done. 16 Then, as I understand it, Ms. Groskaufmanis and Mr. Rob 17 Mullin, of Mr. White's office, identified each excerpt in the 18 notebook, tried to approximate the date where there was no 19 particular date from the context; and where that's been 20 possible, they have done that. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Mr. White...? 22 MR. TODD WHITE: Mr. Mullin is an articling 23 student. I don't know what My Friend is really talking about 24 right now. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry. I missed what

1 your last comment -- he's an articling student, and what? 2 MR. TODD WHITE: I don't know what Mr. Manes 3 is referring to. Is this some sort of agreement that we're 4 supposed to have -- I don't understand. 5 Perhaps I can speak to him for a couple of 6 minutes? 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, I -- I take Mr. 8 Manes to be saying that yesterday Ms. Groskaufmanis and Mr. 9 Mullin, and we now know -- maybe always knew, I don't know, 10 is an articling student, spent the day going through the 11 notes, and pulling out those that were -- that they thought 12 were relevant -- or where there were confidential problems 13 wherever. 14 Ms. Groskaufmanis...? 15 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: Thank you. We -- 16 Mr. Mullin and I did two (2) things. First, Mr. Mullin 17 identified to me entries that included confidential 18 information, or information about other clients, and those 19 were removed from the notes. 20 And then late in the day, he and I sat 21 yesterday and tried, to the best of our ability, to try to 22 establish dates when some of these entries may have been 23 made. 24 At best, for -- by far the majority of them, 25 they're an approximation of the date, they're not -- we

1 haven't reviewed those dates with Ms. Cross. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Have, or have not? 3 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: Have not reviewed 4 those dates with Ms. Cross. At best, it's just an 5 approximation in the event that we have to try to determine 6 when an entry was made. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Mr. White has 8 referred to Mr. Mullin being an articling student, and you 9 knew that, or not knew that, or did it matter? 10 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: I -- I think he may 11 have mentioned it to me, I didn't figure out what -- what he 12 was called to the Bar or not. 13 We were sitting -- 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 15 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: -- we sat in the 16 office for a number of hours going over these books. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 22 Q: Now, I'd like to talk with you about Mr. 23 Lyons, and his relationship with MFP. Do you recall who 24 introduced Mr. Lyons to the MFP people? 25 A: Dave Kelly was the first recollection I

1 have. Dave Kelly from Dell mentioned that Jeff should meet 2 Irene Payne from MFP. 3 Q: Dave Kelly from Dell Computer? 4 A: Dell Computers. 5 Q: All right. And was there a meeting in 6 January, or February of '99, with Dave Kelly and Mr. Lyons? 7 A: Yes, they were -- we had a lunch meeting 8 with Dave Kelly. 9 Q: And where was that? 10 A: At the King Edward Hotel. 11 Q: Were you there? 12 A: I was there. 13 Q: Did you take notes? 14 A: I tried, but it was hard. I was eating. 15 Q: All right. And so, what did Mr. Kelly and 16 Mr. Lyons talk about, to the best of your recollection? 17 A: To the best of my recollection, it was -- 18 it wasn't an overly, I think substantial meeting. In that 19 conversation, I remember Mr. Kelly saying that Irene Payne 20 from MFP was someone that Jeff should meet. That's basically 21 all that I can recall. 22 Q: Did you happen to meet Mr. Paul Godfrey at 23 that lunch? 24 A: We met Mr. Godfrey in the restaurant. He 25 was not at our lunch.

1 Q: All right. Introduced by Mr. Lyons? 2 A: By Mr. Lyons. 3 Q: And do you recall whether Mr. Lyons, to 4 the best of your recollection, ever worked on the City of 5 Toronto and in particular, the 1999 leasing RFQ, between 6 March of '99 and the end of May '99? 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: For MFP, you mean or -- 8 MR. RONALD MANES: For MFP. 9 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge and 10 recollection, no he did not work on that leasing bid for MFP. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 13 Q: Do you feel that you would have been in a 14 position to know that he had worked on that leasing RFQ? 15 A: He was working on the RFQ for Dell 16 Financial. And that was my understanding as to who our 17 client was. 18 Q: Would you have been in a position to know 19 if he was doing anything on that RFQ for MFP? 20 A: No, I would not have, unless I was 21 instructed to have contact with MFP on that leasing bid, 22 which I did not. 23 Q: To the best of your knowledge, the work 24 that Mr. Lyons did on that 1999 City of Toronto leasing RFQ 25 was for Dell Financial Services and not for MFP?

1 A: All right. 2 Q: Did Mr. Lyons have a meeting in your 3 presence with the staff at MFP, March the 15th or March the 4 16th, '99? 5 A: My recollection is the meeting was March 6 16th. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And why is it that you have a recollection 10 of that date? 11 A: My recollection of the date, March 16th, 12 is because we were all very tired because the previous 13 evening, a client of Jeff's opened a new bar and was a big 14 party that everybody was invited to and we were all out quite 15 late. 16 Q: All right. Do you remember who was -- 17 first of all, the staff meeting, as that at Mr. Lyons office 18 or was that at MFP's office? 19 A: The MFP meeting? 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: That was at MFP. 22 Q: All right. And who was there? 23 A: Irene Payne was there. Dash Domi was 24 there. Jeff Lyons was there. I was there. Christine, Irene 25 Payne's assistant was --

1 Q: Vivaldo -- 2 A: -- Vivaldo, yes. She was in and out. I 3 don't believe that she sat through the entire meeting with 4 us. 5 Q: Did you take notes at that meeting? 6 A: I don't think -- I don't recall taking any 7 substantial notes. It was more of an introductory meeting. 8 Meeting everybody for the first time. 9 Q: Did you have -- was there any retainer or 10 letter agreement or written agreement prepared with respect 11 to that -- Mr. Lyons representation of MFP, do you know? 12 A: I do know that a letter was sent 13 subsequent to that meeting to MFP, I guess, setting out the 14 relationship between Jeff and MFP. 15 I did not write that letter or type it, so I 16 can't give you the exact details as to what was included in 17 it. 18 Q: Now, we have here in evidence already, a 19 letter send by Mr. Lyons to MFP to Ms. Payne, dated March the 20 11th, 1999 and a letter from Ms. Payne to Mr. Lyons dated 21 March 16th, '99. 22 A: Sorry. D -- a letter -- what were those 23 dates? 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: March 11th. 25

1 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 2 Q: March 11th, '99 -- 3 A: From Mr. -- 4 Q: -- from Mr. Lyons -- 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: -- to MFP to Ms. Payne and then a letter 7 from Ms. Payne back to Mr. Lyons on March the 16th -- 8 A: Oh, okay. 9 Q: -- 1999 and we're going to refer to that 10 initial letter in a moment. In fact, right now. Do you 11 recall when or -- do you recall Mr. Lyons being terminated by 12 MFP? 13 A: I remember associating a letter from Irene 14 terminating the relationship with Jeff and MFP, yes. 15 Q: Now, we have a letter in that regard dated 16 May 26th, 1999. Did you ever have occasion to read that 17 letter from Ms. Payne to Mr. Lyons? 18 A: I think I might have read it when we 19 received it. 20 Q: All right. Do you know whether Mr. Lyons 21 had any reaction to that letter from Ms. Payne? 22 A: My recollection is that he was relatively 23 confused by the content of the letter. 24 Q: What confused him, do you recall? 25 A: Because in the letter that he had sent to

1 her, and I'm not sure the date on this letter, we went and 2 took the letter from the file -- sort of, I think a 3 preliminary sort of setting out the agreement between Jeff 4 and MFP that he had indicated in that letter that he was 5 representing Dell Financial Systems -- or Services. 6 Q: That he was representing -- I take it the 7 letter said representing Dell Computers which included Dell 8 Financial Services? 9 A: That might be the exact wording but I 10 remember -- I'm recalling that Dell Financial Services is 11 mentioned in the initial letter. 12 Q: And he was concerned because Ms. Payne 13 said that he hadn't disclosed his representation of Dell 14 Financial Services -- 15 A: And he -- 16 Q: -- and he had disclosed it specifically in 17 that initial letter? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. Now, I understand that Mr. 20 Lyons was rehired? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: How did that happen? 23 A: I'm not quite sure. 24 Q: In your -- we have a letter from Ms. Payne 25 dated September 10th, 1999 and you have some entries that may

1 relate to that rehiring at Tab 6, if you'd like to take your 2 book and we should mark that as an exhibit. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Hmm hmm. 4 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit 31. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT 31: Bound document titled "Susan Cross" 7 tabs 1-15 8 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Thank you and sorry, 10 which tab? 11 MR. RONALD MANES: Tab 6. This is August '99 12 to September '99 and if you'll turn to Page 4 and you'll see 13 -- 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Now -- 15 MR. RONALD MANES: -- Commissioner -- 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Hmm hmm. 17 MR. RONALD MANES: Sorry, you'll see that 18 there -- the transcription of it is on the next -- the next 19 page. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I just note that we seem 21 to have two (2) -- two (2) pages of everything or of num -- 22 is there a reason we couldn't have done 4A and 4B so we'd 23 always know which one is the handwritten one and which one is 24 the typed one? I just didn't get thinking about that at the 25 time.

1 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: No, we didn't think 2 of it at the time. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 4 MR. RONALD MANES: The handwritten one, I 5 might say, is a handwritten one and the typewritten one, 6 Commissioner, is typed. There are no -- none of these rough 7 notes are -- are typewritten. So -- 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: They're all type written. 9 There's typing right after each one. 10 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes but that's the 11 transcription and that's our transcription, Commissioner. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes. No, I know but I'm 13 just thinking in terms of making it a little easier for 14 everybody to figure out which one we're looking at. Anyway, 15 we've got -- this is what we've got now. Let's go with it. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 18 Q: Now, this is page 4, these are you notes, 19 from Wednesday, August the 25th and you'll see there is an 20 entry at the bottom and it's -- could you read that for us? 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: At the bottom? 22 MR. RONALD MANES: At the bottom of the note, 23 Commissioner, where it starts, Christina. 24 THE WITNESS: "Christine, MFP" and then it's 25 dash:

1 "Is Thursday still on?" 2 And then the bottom line says: 3 "Call her." 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 6 Q: All right. Do you have any idea what that 7 relates -- 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: So that's Thursday, not 9 Tuesday, because the typed part says, Tuesday. 10 MR. RONALD MANES: No, Commissioner, I'm 11 reading the notes from the top down. From the top down, it's 12 Wednesday, August the 25th -- 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr. Manes -- 14 MR. RONALD MANES: -- and the note is, 15 Christine at MFP, is Tuesday still on. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- she said Thursday, 17 not Tuesday. 18 MR. RONALD MANES: Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't 19 hear that. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Because you were looking 21 at the typed one (1). 22 All right. So -- 23 MR. RONALD MANES: Actually, I was looking at 24 the written one (1). 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: So, do we know if it's

1 Thursday or Tuesday, or does it matter? If it doesn't 2 matter, let's just move on. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 5 Q: Does that say Tuesday or Thursday in your 6 handwritten notes? 7 A: When I look at it, I see Thursday. 8 Q: All right. So, we'll correct that in the 9 typewritten notes, it says Thursday. 10 Now, again, do you have any recollection of 11 what that was in reference to? 12 A: No, I don't. 13 Q: And page 6, at the bottom of your 14 handwritten notes, there's a reference there to, call 15 somebody, see at the top? Right at the bottom -- 16 A: Yes -- 17 Q: -- and then it says -- 18 A: Oh, that says, call -- I'm not sure. It 19 says call, it could be call Char, who is my friend. 20 Q: Oh, I see. Underneath that there's Mr. 21 Domi? 22 A: Dash Domi, Rob Godfrey, Rob Wilkinson and 23 Doctor Ernie Johnathon. 24 Q: Now, do you have any recollection of what 25 those references were to? Domi, Godfrey, Wilkinson, in terms

1 of calling or what? 2 A: I don't have an exact recollection, but 3 given its place in my notebook, I would believe and think 4 that it was about the golf tournament. 5 Q: The Premier's golf tournament? 6 A: No, the Brother Jeff (phonetic) golf 7 tournament. 8 Q: The Brother Jeff golf tournament. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And seven (7)? 13 A: Call Christine at MFP re: August 23rd, 14 reschedule. 15 Q: And is that in relation to the previous 16 notation regarding Irene Payne? That's at page 4. 17 A: I can't tell you 100 percent that it is. 18 It could be in relation to just trying to schedule. 19 Q: Do you have any recollection of what they 20 were scheduling and what they were going to discuss when they 21 -- when they met? 22 A: No, I don't. 23 Q: All right. And then just page 9, what 24 does that entry say? 25 A: Christine - Irene Payne - 9:30.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And just so we know for 2 the transcript, when you're saying dash -- it's just a dash, 3 it's not Dash Domi. 4 THE WITNESS: No, sorry -- 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: A dash -- 6 THE WITNESS: Dash -- line dash. Hyphen. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 9 Q: Now, there's no date on this. This has 10 been projected to be around Monday, August the 9th, is that 11 of any help to you, or no? As to when this particular entry 12 was made? 13 A: I couldn't verify that based on the 14 photocopies of my notes. 15 Q: All right. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Groskaufmanis, are 17 you in the position to assist as to how any of the dates got 18 ... 19 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: I -- I can explain 20 the process we went through. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 22 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: Mr. Mullin and I 23 would find the excerpt in Ms. Cross' notebook, and then we 24 would start flipping pages backwards to find the first 25 location where Ms. Cross appears to have put a date in her

1 notebook. 2 So, for example, if five (5) pages before was 3 written Monday, August 9, we would -- we would make a 4 notation that this note may have been made on Monday, August 5 the 9th. 6 But I want to be very clear, since Ms. Cross 7 didn't uniformly date her notes every time she began, 8 sometimes you could go for many pages, twenty (20) or thirty 9 (30), without finding a date. 10 So, Mr. Mullin and I, you know, sometimes it's 11 quite -- it appeared quite clear if the date was a page or 12 two (2) before hand. The farther back you go, the more 13 uncertain we -- uncertainty we had. 14 On some of them, he and I really couldn't 15 establish a date, or there were simply so many pages back 16 that any date was unreliable. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: So, you would be able to 18 say, it was at least after -- it was either on Monday, August 19 the 9th, or after August the 9th. 20 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: That's -- that would 21 appear to be logical if she kept her notebooks in 22 chronological order, if she didn't skip back and forth 23 between pages. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Did you keep them in 25 chronological order, or did you -- did you write on each

1 page, as you were going along? 2 THE WITNESS: I wrote on each page as I was 3 going along, but it was not my practice to date every single 4 page. 5 And sometimes legitimately, in a day, there 6 could be twenty (20) pages of notes for that day, if I was at 7 a counsel meeting, or I was at a client meeting. 8 It -- my handwriting is -- is bigger than 9 normal, so it does take up a lot of pages, and I didn't 10 always write on every line. 11 And a lot of phone calls did come into the 12 office, so sometimes there is quite a bit for one day. And 13 then some days are very hectic, and I just grabbed the book 14 and wrote, to ensure that the information was written down 15 and whether it was dated properly, sort of, wasn't a priority 16 at that time. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right, but you -- but 18 you -- it wasn't like you would write on one page, leave ten 19 (10) blank, and then come back later on and write on those 20 ten (10) blank pages? 21 THE WITNESS: Generally -- generally, no. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 23 THE WITNESS: Sometimes I would -- if I was 24 close to the end of a book, and knew I was close to the end 25 of the book, and had another handy, if that book was the

1 first thing that was within my grab then I would write in 2 there. 3 So, then sometimes there's a case where one 4 notebook has a couple dates, and then I grabbed the next one 5 and realized there was still paper, and that was the closest 6 book, so I wrote it down then. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I see. Okay. 8 THE WITNESS: But at the time, I knew that. 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right. 10 MS. VALERIE DYER: Madam -- Madam 11 Commissioner? 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms. Dyer? 13 MS. VALERIE DYER: I wonder if we could 14 determine from Ms. Groskaufmanis, given what she just said, 15 how these books were put together because if this was 16 approximately August 9, instead of say, approximately 17 September 9, it follows in the book after August 25. 18 So, how can counsel know, or discern, how the 19 books are put together? 20 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: They were -- it 21 certainly was the intention that they would be photocopied 22 from front to back of the notebook. 23 As Mr. Mullin and I went through them 24 yesterday, just because the sheer number of pages of 25 photocopying, we noticed some of the pages were photocopied

1 out of order. 2 Probably on my lunch break I could try to 3 identify those. Occasionally there's a page that is out of 4 order. 5 I think one of the tabs, and I apologize, 6 Commissioner, I don't recall off hand which one it is. The 7 notebook was copied back to front. 8 It just went through the photocopier the 9 opposite way. We didn't know that until Mr. Mullin and I 10 were actually sitting down trying to correlate them all back 11 and forth. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. But you'll 13 help anybody here who needs some assistance on any of that? 14 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: Yes. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. Okay, Mr. 16 Manes...? 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 19 Q: On that last page, in this -- Page -- Page 20 11, there's an entry. Perhaps you could read that? 21 A: Dash Domi. And then it's his phone 22 number, 905-403-4802. It's foursome MFP. 23 Q: What -- what's that context -- what -- the 24 tournament? 25 A: The golf tournament, yes.

1 Q: Is that the brother, Jeff? 2 A: The brother Jeff Golf Tournament. 3 Q: What did that mean, foursome MFP? 4 A: It -- this message would mean one of two 5 (2) things, that I was either calling Dash to find out who 6 was in his foursome because we like to put names of everyone 7 in the foursome on the golf cart, or Dash was calling me, and 8 I have to call him back to get the names for his foursome. 9 Q: All right. Now, as I understand it there 10 was a meeting in early 2000 that Mr. Lyons had with Mr. 11 Wolfraim and Mr. Flanagan? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Were you at that meeting? 14 A: I was at that meeting. 15 Q: And there are two (2) entries, are there, 16 with respect to that meeting, at Tab 7? Page 1. 17 A: That says: 18 "Christine - MFP" 19 It says: 20 "Peter Wolfraim, Jeff's name has come up. 21 Would like to meet with Jeff. Meet, update 22 as consultant, what is being done, et 23 cetera" 24 And then I believe from the photocopy version 25 that I was either to call Mr. Wolfraim --

1 Q: All right. Just let me stop you there. 2 Do you know who at MFP Mr. Lyons was working with and on 3 what, generally? 4 A: Generally when we started -- 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: -- with M -- with MFP, Irene Payne and 7 Dash Domi were the main contacts -- contacts, sorry, but I 8 believe between 1999 and 2000 Irene Payne left MFP. 9 Q: And who was the main contact after Irene 10 Payne left MFP? 11 A: Peter Wolfraim. 12 Q: All right and did Mr. Lyons, during that 13 time, work with John Rollock? 14 A: John Rollock isn't in the -- from my notes 15 has come up. I don't recall meeting him personally but from 16 my -- looking back, I can see that Mr. Rollock did a lot of 17 work with the province. 18 Q: All right and then Tab 8, Pages 2 and 3. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: That's -- there's a number 3 and: 23 "Meeting with MFP, remind on Monday" 24 And then Page 3: 25 "Peter Wolfraim's office --"

1 There's an arrow. 2 Q: There's a date on this, January 24th or am 3 I on the -- 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: Tab 8? 8 Q: I'm at t -- I'm sorry. 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You said Tab 8. 10 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes, I did. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Page 2 and 3. 12 MR. RONALD MANES: I'm sorry. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 15 Q: Peter Wolfraim's office -- 16 A: Are you on Page 3? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: Okay. 19 "Peter Wolfraim's office --" 20 There's an arrow. It says: 21 "-- either day is fine. Call him back next 22 day or so. Wants to meet with Jeff to 23 introduce him to people he should meet from 24 MFP" 25 Q: Do you have any idea when that notation

1 was made? 2 A: No, I don't. 3 MR. RONALD MANES: Ms. Groskaufmanis? 4 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: The only way I can 5 help you is that the best date that Mr. Moore and I were able 6 to establish would be that it would be approximately 7 Wednesday, March the 1st. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: March 1st? 9 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: March 1. 10 MR. TODD WHITE: Your Honour, I appreciate -- 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Of which year? 12 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Commissioner? Oh, 13 sorry. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I -- can I just find out 15 which year, first? Is it 1999 or 2000 or -- 16 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: Ms. P -- Ms. Cross 17 didn't always put dates for -- didn't always include a year 18 in her date notations. For this notebook which appears from 19 some notations to include the year 2000. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 21 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: I would assume it's 22 2000 but we are qu -- 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: 2000 is the one that has 24 March 1 as a Wednesday whereas 1999 doesn't. So that might 25 be it. Okay, anyway. Yes, Ms. Rothstein and then Mr. White.

1 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Commissioner, I just 2 wanted to put on the record that in my discussions with Ms. 3 Cross, she asked me to ensure that her original books were 4 here because if she looks at the originals and looks back at 5 the dates that are available for her to look at, she may be 6 in the position to provide some evidence as to when the time 7 frame would be. 8 If they're not dated specifically, she can't 9 always be specific as to a precise date but she can put it 10 usually within a time frame but she can't do that from 11 looking at the photocopies. She can only do that from 12 looking at the original notebooks. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. Mr. White? 14 MR. TODD WHITE: I would agree with that. And 15 I think if the witness can't say, then for Commission Counsel 16 to give evidence and bring in an articling student's name to 17 give it some sort of credibility, it doesn't -- 18 MR. RONALD MANES: Well -- 19 MR. TODD WHITE: -- it's not really fair. I 20 think that the witness is in the best position. If the 21 witness can't, then you know, speculation by anyone else is 22 really not helpful. 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Groskaufmanis? 24 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: Commissioner, I have 25 two (2) responses. First, Ms. Cross' original notebooks are

1 here. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 3 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: I have them with me. 4 Ms. Cross can obviously have them there. It's just simpler 5 since I've gone through them many times, I can probably 6 pinpoint her to the entry more quickly. 7 Secondly, my understanding of going through 8 was only to -- going through the daytimer with Mr. Mullin was 9 only to try to establish some context to assist counsel where 10 necessary. 11 Obviously Ms. Cross is in the best position to 12 determine the date. This was only to try to be helpful and 13 to move the proceedings along more quickly and more smoothly. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, then 15 why don't -- 16 MR. TODD WHITE: I appreciate that. But it 17 now seems like counsel is giving evidence as to what the date 18 is and it just seems strange to me. 19 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, if I might just 20 briefly comment on that. 21 I have no intention of being unfair to My 22 Friend. As I understand the process that he agreed to and 23 that was undertaken by that agreement, all day yesterday, was 24 that Mr. Mullin and Ms. Groskaufmanis, made their best 25 efforts to determine these times by going through all those

1 diaries. 2 It seemed to be a fair process, seemed to be 3 something that My Friend agreed to, rather than suggesting on 4 the record that I'm bringing an articling student's name in 5 the process, I thought that was by agreement. 6 If My Friend is saying that there was no 7 agreement, Mr. Mullin was there unauthorized if that's what 8 he says, if so, that's news to me. 9 In any event, I -- on this particular entry, 10 nothing much is going to turn on that entry. I didn't want 11 to take the time to go back and put that particular entry to 12 ensure that it was Wednesday, March 1st, of '99 or 2000, 13 rather. 14 So, if that is in dispute, it's not important 15 enough to take all this time to go through it. I'll go onto 16 the next entry. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, why -- where there 18 are any dates that are of any concern, why don't we make sure 19 that Ms. Cross has the original notebook? 20 And Ms. Groskaufmanis, I know -- well I 21 thought I saw a bunch of stickies in them yesterday, when you 22 were with Mr. Mullin. So I'm sure they're all different 23 colours for different reasons or something. 24 So, maybe if you could, on the ones where 25 there appear to be some contention about what the actual date

1 is, if you could facilitate in any way, with Ms. Cross, so 2 she doesn't have to go through all of them, then I'd 3 appreciate it. 4 Okay? All right. Mr. Manes? 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 7 Q: Now, you had told us, Ms. Cross, that you 8 met Mr. Domi, at the March 16th initial staff meeting? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Did Mr. Lyons and Mr. Domi, appear to know 11 one (1) another prior to that meeting? 12 A: No, they did not. 13 Q: Their relationship during the course of 14 that meeting, did it appear professional at all times? 15 A: It was very professional, yes. 16 Q: All right. Let's then go on to Dell 17 Financial Services and the relationship Mr. Lyons had with 18 Dell Financial Services. 19 Now, as I understand it, Dell Financial 20 Services became a client of Mr. Lyons in early 1999? 21 A: I believe that's correct. 22 Q: All right. Now, there is a reference to 23 an initial meeting at Tab 2, page 7. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 A: It says: 2 "Dave Kelly, lunch meeting with Jeff, Dave, 3 Gord Barrett" 4 And there's a down arrow and it says: 5 "General manager, DFS, Wednesday/Thursday 6 week of February 10th." 7 And then there's a little arrow down from the 8 explanation about Gord Barrett, serves VP, Newcourt. 9 Q: So, the arrow actually, when you look at 10 it, there's a -- Gord Barrett, with an arrow, General 11 Manager. 12 And then an arrow down from that, VP 13 Newcourt -- Senior VP Newcourt? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. And then DFS. 16 A: Sorry, I said serves, but you would be 17 correct in that it says Senior VP. 18 Q: All right. And a reference 19 "Wednesday/Thursday, February 10th" 20 What is that in relation to; any idea? 21 A: Wednesday/Thursday, and then the week of 22 the February 10th, is most likely when we were trying to make 23 the arrangements for. 24 Q: All right. Now, if there's any contention 25 about this, I'm happy not to -- to bind any of My Friends by

1 this, but we have a date on here of Thursday, January 28th, 2 1999. 3 That's just from -- 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I don't know what you're 5 talking about, Mr. Manes. 6 MR. RONALD MANES: -- that's from Ms. 7 Groskaufmanis' evaluation. But again, if there's going to be 8 any -- any contention about that I'm -- I'm happy to move on. 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I don't know if there is, 10 and that -- 11 MR. TODD WHITE: Neither do I. I have no clue 12 on any of this. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, as I understood it, 14 the reason that Ms. Groskaufmanis and Mr. Mullin went through 15 all of this all day yesterday, was to try and speed things up 16 a little bit for us here, so we wouldn't be sitting as Ms. 17 Cross goes through all the fifteen (15) notebooks and tries 18 to ascertain what -- what date it was. 19 Is there any way we can get some kind of -- of 20 agreement. Not that it's the actual date, but whatever 21 information that we have, that Ms. Groskaufmanis and Mr. 22 Mullin worked so hard to do yesterday. 23 Is there any way we can get something on that, 24 or do we have to go through this with every single date? 25 MR. TODD WHITE: Well, I don't know.

1 That's -- that is not what they did yesterday. It may have 2 been one of the purposes for Commission Counsel, but it was 3 our opportunity, for the very first time, to actually look at 4 the notebooks. 5 So, whether or not this is, you know, I don't 6 know if any of it's important. None of it -- 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think, Mr. White, they 8 did more than one thing. 9 MR. TODD WHITE: No -- 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think they did more 11 than one thing yesterday, Mr. White, and this was one of the 12 other things that they did. 13 And it just seems to me to make sense, if we 14 can find some way to speed this up, so we don't all have to 15 sit here while -- while poor Ms. Cross goes through fifteen 16 (15) notebooks, then I'd like to do that, if we can, rather 17 than delay anything. 18 MR. RONALD MANES: As I understand it, Mr. 19 White had copies of these notebooks last Thursday. So, to 20 suggest that -- that his -- 21 MR. TODD WHITE: The actual notebooks. 22 MR. RONALD MANES: -- student's -- yes, the 23 original notebooks, but in any event, I'm quite content if 24 any of this is going to be controversial, Commissioner, it's 25 -- it's not worth the time to spend with the witness in the

1 witness box to go through it. 2 It's obvious that this notation was made 3 before a -- before February 10th, because that's what's 4 being -- that's what being scheduled. 5 And I'm quite happy that it just stands for 6 what it says. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Next one then, 8 please. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 11 Q: And Tab 3, Page 1. 12 A: The top says: 13 "Christine - Irene Payne's office." 14 And the phone number, 905-403-4825. The 15 second one is: 16 "Julie from Wanda Liczyk's office." 17 And then there's the number: 18 "392-8067, re: meeting date, April 1st -- 19 April 21 or April 22nd a.m.. Have left a 20 message for Gord Barrett at Dell Financial 21 re: this." 22 And then there's a little arrow down from Gord 23 Barrett's name, and that's: 24 "assistant, Tracy. 75825." 25 In the original notebook, that phone number

1 does continue. And then it says: 2 "The best date for Jeff is the 21st in the 3 p.m." 4 And then the star was, April 21st. 5 Q: So, this notation would have been made 6 sometime prior to April 21st? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: To set up a meeting that included Ms. 9 Liczyk, and Mr. Barrett, and Mr. Lyons? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: Anyone else? 12 A: At this point, from this note, there was 13 no one that I had called to invite, if anyone from Dell 14 Financial would have come, they would have been brought to 15 Gord Barrett's office. 16 Q: All right. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And at Tab 3, let me take you to Page 14. 21 Now, Page 14 through Page 24. Fortunately, that -- those are 22 -- that meeting is dated April 23rd? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And 14 through 24 are your notes of that 25 -- of that meeting?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Now, can you tell us who was at that 3 meeting? Are you looking at your notes? 4 A: It was a meeting with Wanda -- Wanda 5 Liczyk but I didn't put her last name there. Dell Financial. 6 Jeff was there -- Jeff Lyons, sorry. Bruce Mortensen, Scott 7 Marentette, Gord Barrett, me, and Jim Andrew. 8 Q: Now, Bruce Mortensen would have been from 9 Dell Computer? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And Scott Marentette and Gord Barrett 12 would have been from Dell Financial? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right and from having reviewed the -- 15 these notes, can you tell us generally what that meeting was 16 set up to do? 17 A: From reviewing the notes, the meeting was 18 set up as a way to introduce Dell Financial or the 19 representatives of Dell Financial to Wanda Liczyk and Jim 20 Andrew as they were the heads of their respective departments 21 they were interested in, Finance and IT. 22 Q: And if you'll turn to 14. 23 A: Sorry. Page 14 -- 24 Q: Page 14. 25 A: Okay, sorry.

1 Q: There is a reference to -- at the top. 2 "Wanda s --" 3 Is that: 4 "-- sold on the idea"? 5 A: Yes, that's what it says. 6 Q: Do you have any recollection of what that 7 meant and who said that -- made that statement? 8 A: I cannot give you anything as to who said 9 what at the meeting. I can read what the notes say, but I 10 don't have a recollection of this meeting. 11 Q: All right. If you'll go over to Page 15. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Sorry. Were these 13 meetings -- these notes were made at the time that you were 14 at the meeting? 15 THE WITNESS: They were -- that is correct. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And were these things 17 that people were saying or your -- your views of what -- 18 THE WITNESS: They were words that people had 19 said. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Sorry, Mr. Manes, 21 which page? 22 MR. RONALD MANES: Page 15. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 25 Q: At the last line:

1 "She likes the idea. To tell Council that 2 she has contracts --" 3 And then a hyphen: 4 "they" 5 And that next word, if you can look at your 6 handwriting? 7 A: Cannot. 8 Q: "They cannot --" 9 It says convert here: 10 "They cannot cut IT budget" 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Now, again, those are just words that were 13 used. You don't -- can't attribute those to any particular 14 person and you were just writing down what you were hearing, 15 not your impressions? 16 A: Exactly. 17 Q: All right and Page 17. This is where 18 they're just out of -- for context, it appears they're 19 talking about whether to refurbish the existing computers or 20 not and there's the note at the bottom. Could you read that 21 note? 22 A: How fa -- how far down at the bottom? 23 Q: Right at the bottom. 24 A: The last -- the last line? 25 Q: Last line.

1 A: It says: 2 "Jakobek if it is under one thousand 3 dollars ($1,000) fix, if it's over one 4 thousand dollars ($1,000) purchase new 5 ones." 6 Q: Again, any idea of who said that and what 7 it means? 8 A: I could not tell you who said it and what 9 it means. 10 Q: All right. Now if you go to page 18. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: That last paragraph starting, Tommy. 15 A: "Tommy's report is based on a copy from 16 Oshawa that had a chip, but this will not 17 increase --" 18 And I think it says: 19 "-- measurable RAM." 20 Q: Measurable RAM, all right. Now, do you 21 have any idea, first of all, who Tommy would be? 22 A: My idea of who Tommy would be would be Tom 23 Jakobek. 24 Q: Why do you say that? 25 A: Because Jeff referred to him as Tommy.

1 Q: Do you have a specific recollection of 2 Jeff referring to Mr. Jakobek as Tommy in that meeting, or 3 are you saying that generally, Mr. Lyons referred to Mr. 4 Jakobek as Tommy? 5 A: I'm saying, generally Mr. Lyons referred 6 to Mr. Jakobek as Tommy. I cannot tell you 100 percent that 7 this Tommy in this case is Mr. Jakobek. 8 Q: All right. And -- and 19? The sentence 9 starting, In North York, that's about three quarters of the 10 way down. 11 A: "In North York --" 12 I think that might be a little hyphen: 13 "-- check the issue of information 14 technology, I tech -- commission technology 15 off the political agenda." 16 Q: Okay, let's stop there for a second. 17 Again, do you have any idea who's speaking there, in respect 18 to North York and taking the issue of IT tech off the 19 political agenda? 20 A: No, I can't confirm who -- 21 Q: All right. 22 A: -- who said that. 23 Q: And could you then move down to the -- to 24 the next and last paragraph? 25 A: "Would like to move in this direction, as

1 it is like buying office supplies. Not 2 asking for more money, working it out of 3 the envelope of funds already allocated." 4 And then -- 5 Q: Does that say working it? 6 A: "Working it out of --" 7 Q: Yes, all right. 8 A: "-- the envelope of funds." 9 Q: Already allocated? 10 A: Already allocated. And like, my photocopy 11 isn't the clearest -- 12 Q: All right. 13 A: -- within that space of words. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And page 23. You'll see there's a 18 paragraph starting about three (3) sentences down: 19 "Would need to --" 20 And I can't read the next word. 21 A: Oh. 22 Q: See the -- it's the second arrow in your 23 handwriting? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Could you interpret -- not interpret that,

1 can you -- 2 A: "Would need to clarify what the City's 3 financial constraints are. Show various 4 sets of solutions." 5 Q: And then the next sentence? 6 A: "Scott - e-mailed Jim the template, look 7 at one third, one third, one third. Look 8 at two thirds, one third." 9 And there's a -- a hyphen there: 10 "Payments ramping up." 11 Q: Now, do you know what template is being 12 discussed there? 13 A: No, I do not. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And then if you go then to the last page, 18 24. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: The first sentence. 23 A: I believe it says: 24 "Do it with IT guy and finance guy." 25 Q: All right. And the next starting,

1 Difficult? 2 A: "Difficult -- difficult to do this if they 3 go to public process." 4 Q: And the next sentence? 5 A: "Approach it as if it was your company, if 6 you were Wanda, what would you do?" 7 Q: Next? 8 A: "Comes down to a financial analysis, and 9 not --" 10 Oh: 11 "-- and meet the objective of refreshing." 12 Q: All right, and then starting the sentence, 13 Going to buy? 14 A: "Going to buy then, but they would turn 15 into lease." 16 Q: Yes, all right. 17 A: Oh, by them, not then: 18 "Going to buy them, but they would turn 19 into the lease." 20 Q: All right. 21 A: And I think above that hyphen there's: 22 "Four thousand (4,000) new ones." 23 Q: All right. Now, if you'll just put that 24 book aside for just a moment. Who did you speak with more 25 often from DFS, Mr. Simone or Mr. Marentette?

1 A: Mr. Marentette. 2 Q: Would Mr. Marentette have been your main 3 contact? 4 A: Yes, he would have been. 5 Q: And would you have spoken to Mr. Simone 6 more than a few times? 7 A: Not more than a few times. 8 Q: All right. In terms of your experience 9 with the clients that hire Mr. Lyons with respect to 10 representations and the procurement and then in particular 11 RFQs, did Mr. Marentette seem to have a full appreciation of 12 the process by which a decision would be made at the City? 13 A: I'm not sure -- 14 Q: Did he have an understanding of the 15 situation -- of the process at the City? 16 A: As explained by us, or did he come in with 17 that? 18 Q: Yes, did he come in? 19 A: My recollection is that he didn't have an 20 exact understanding of how the process worked with the City. 21 Q: And in your experience, was he typical of 22 -- of a client that retains Mr. Lyons to assist in a 23 procurement process? 24 A: Yes, he was. 25 Q: All right. Mr. Lyons would -- would

1 assist in -- in explaining how the City operated, how the 2 process worked, et cetera? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: All right. And then he would guide the 5 client through the process, including setting up meetings 6 with staff and Councillors? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: All right. Now, if you -- if I can take 9 you to Tab 3, page 27. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Can you tell us what your handwritten 14 notations say? 15 A: "Called Scott Marentette to arrange 16 meeting with Jakobek. He will be back in 17 the office on Thursday, May --" 18 That's either May 6th or 16th, it's a poor 19 photocopy. 20 Q: All right. Now, was such a meeting 21 arranged with Mr. Jakobek? 22 A: I don't recall if one (1) actually was. 23 Q: All right, did you -- do you recall ever 24 attending on a meeting with Mr. Jakobek, Mr. Marentette, Mr. 25 Lyons?

1 A: No, I -- I did not attend such a meeting. 2 Q: Do you recall whether Mr. Lyons ever 3 talked to you about having a meeting with Mr. Marentette and 4 Mr. Jakobek? 5 A: I don't recall him ever mentioning that to 6 me, no. 7 Q: Would having a meeting with Mr. Jakobek, 8 Mr. Lyons and a client be anything out of the ordinary in 9 respect to Mr. Lyons' representation of -- of clients who 10 were engaged in an RFQ competition? 11 A: No, it wouldn't have been out of the 12 ordinary. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Would you normally set 14 this up, or would -- 15 THE WITNESS: Sometimes I did set them up, a 16 lot of times his administrative assistant did -- she did most 17 of the scheduling. I did scheduling when assigned. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 21 Q: Now, you say you talked with Mr. 22 Marentette, on several occasions, was it? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. All through the process from 25 the time they retained you to the time that the bid was lost,

1 and even after that? 2 A: Not too much after the bid was lost, but 3 during the process, yes, I did speak with Mr. Marentette. 4 Q: And during the process, did Mr. Marentette 5 ever say to you that he had concerns about Mr. Lyons, and the 6 manner in which he was conducting his representation of -- of 7 DFS? 8 A: No, he did not. 9 Q: Did Mr. Lyons, to your knowledge, ever 10 tell DFS that he was also doing work for MFP? 11 A: Did Mr. Lyons ever -- 12 Q: Tell -- say anything to you or do you have 13 any knowledge of Mr. Lyons ever telling DFS that Mr. Lyons 14 was also working for MFP? 15 A: I don't have any recollection of either 16 Mr. Lyons mentioning it to me or hearing him mention it to 17 DFS. 18 Q: All right. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MR. RONALD MANES: I'm going on to another 23 area, Commissioner. I see it's 11:25. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You want to take a break 25 now, is that what you're saying?

1 MR. RONALD MANES: I can -- I can start this 2 area, and we can take -- take a break, if you wish, it's just 3 that -- 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right, we'll -- okay, 5 we'll break now and we'll come back at quarter to. 6 THE REGISTRAR: Order. The Inquiry will 7 recess until quarter to 12:00. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 11:25 a.m. 10 11 --- Upon resuming at 11:45 a.m. 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: The Inquiry will resume. 14 Please be seated. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes? 19 MR. RONALD MANES: Thank you, Commissioner. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 22 Q: There are several entries in your notebook 23 with respect to Mr. Marentette, on the face of it checking to 24 see how things are going. Do you remember several 25 conversations that you had with him where he wanted to know

1 the status and what's going on, et cetera? 2 A: I recall speaking with him and him asking 3 for updates but specifically, I couldn't tell you what -- 4 when the con -- that conversations took pl -- what time of 5 day, what they involved other than I remember speaking with 6 him on the phone. 7 Q: Let's see if we can -- we can go to the 8 Exhibit Book 31 and go to Tab 4. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: This is May '99 to June '99 and go to Page 13 16, please. Now, can you -- Page 16, can you read that entry 14 for us? 15 A: Sure. It says: 16 "Scott Marentette. Today is the day our 17 recommendations are going to Policy and 18 Finance, could Jeff put in a call." 19 Q: All right. 20 A: There's words 1760 up there, but I think 21 most likely it's from whatever was before it -- the Scott 22 Marentette section. It's not relevant to that. 23 Q: I see that. All right. Now, we know that 24 this ultimately went to Policy and Finance on June -- July 25 the 20th, 1999. Let's go to Tab -- or Page 18 --

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Was it July 20th that it 2 went to P&F? 3 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Ultimately it did -- 4 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. 5 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: -- it was -- there 6 was -- 7 MR. RONALD MANES: Ultimately it did, but 8 there's a little bit more circuitous route according to these 9 notes. 10 THE WITNESS: Page 18, sorry? 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 13 Q: Page 18. 14 A: It says: 15 "Scott Marentette." 16 And arrows: 17 "410-9464." 18 And then it says, little hyphen: 19 "- any news." 20 Q: All right, and then let's go to page 20. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Can you read that notation for us: 25 A: It says, 04 beside it:

1 "Scott Marentette - 410-9469 --" 2 I'm not sure if that says: 3 "Call again." 4 I can't make that out: 5 "Re: have I heard anything." 6 Q: All right. 7 A: And there is the word, no, but that again, 8 doesn't go with that. 9 Q: And can you go to page 21? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And read that -- that page I think you 12 should read for us? 13 A: Okay: 14 "Tomorrow at 9:00, Policy and Finance 15 Committee, meet Scott Marentette - 8:55 16 outside second floor. If it comes forward, 17 may have to ask clerk to be deputant 18 (phonetic), defer the matter to July 20th, 19 as they just got the report." 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: That you'd have to ask 21 clerk to be deputant? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And what's it -- okay, 24 what does that mean? Do you know what that means? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, when there -- when there's

1 a meeting at Committee, people who come forward to speak to 2 the Committee, and -- and the clerk are called deputants, and 3 you have to request to be put on the list. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay, thanks. And then 5 what did -- what was the other line, said defer -- defer the 6 matter to July? 7 THE WITNESS: July 20th, as they just got the 8 report. 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I see, okay. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 12 Q: Now, do you have any recollection or 13 knowledge as to who was going to be a deputant at the meeting 14 that was -- the Policy and Finance Committee, that was 15 supposed to take place? Who is that referring to? 16 A: I don't have an exact recollection of who 17 that was going to. My interpretation from my notes would be 18 that the client would depute, if possible, at the Committee. 19 Q: All right, basically to make submissions 20 or representations to the Committee? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. Anything unusual about that? 23 A: No, that's not unusual. 24 Q: All right. Well, then defer the matter to 25 July 20th, as -- does that say, Committee just got --

1 A: AS they just -- 2 Q: They just got the report? 3 A: -- got the report. 4 Q: What was that about, to your recollection? 5 A: I don't have an exact recollection, but I 6 can -- can I give a context of -- as to how that would work? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: In a normal situation? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Many times when a Committee just receives 11 a report, if they receive it that day there is a motion to 12 defer it to the next meeting to give Councillors time to read 13 it. 14 Q: When you say if Jeff receives a report -- 15 A: Oh, if -- 16 Q: -- that day. 17 A: -- no, not if Jeff, if -- if they -- 18 Q: Oh. 19 A: -- the Committee. 20 Q: I see. So, your -- your assumption is 21 that -- that there -- this was just such a case and there was 22 a motion to defer to the next meeting? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. But this note that you took, 25 would that have been at a meeting, or that have been a

1 telephone call, or a note to yourself, or what? 2 A: My recollection is that that would most 3 likely be a -- a voice mail message, and the reason I -- I 4 say that, is just because it was just details of -- sort of 5 it's more direction based than conversation based. 6 Q: All right. And then if you turn to Tab 5 7 and it's Pages 1 and 2 that I'm interested in. Could you 8 read Page -- Page 1 for us? 9 A: This -- Number 14? It says: 10 "Forward --" 11 Message forwarded to me from Scott Marentette 12 re and I gather the name has been blacked out. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: "Yes, hired by Barrett at the province HM 15 - DFS Jeff - Dell" 16 Q: Now -- all right, let's just stop there 17 for a moment. What does that mean to you? I appreciate 18 there's a name blocked out there but: 19 "Yes, hired by Barrett at the province, HM" 20 The name that was blacked out. 21 "DFS" 22 And then: 23 "Jeff - Dell" 24 What does that mean? 25 A: I do remem -- remember this. From time to

1 time, we would scan the Ontario Lobbyis registry and we had 2 seen that the other individual was representing DFS at the 3 province and Jeff just wanted to inquire as to why -- if -- 4 if -- I think, the long term plan might have been to 5 represent Dell Financial at the province, as well and this 6 was Scott calling back and just clarifying that this 7 individual, HM, was representing Dell Financial Systems at 8 the province but Jeff was representing Dell Computers. 9 Q: All right and then if you go then to 10 Number 2. 11 A: 2, it says: 12 "Re: Policy and Finance report. Call about 13 getting the report by the weekend --" 14 With a phone number: 15 "410-9469 (pricing)" 16 Q: All right. Now, let's stop there. Policy 17 and Finance report. Call about getting the report by the 18 weekend and then beneath that round-bracket pricing. Do you 19 have any recollection of the context of that entry? 20 A: I don't have any exact recollection other 21 than reading what it says, we're waiting to get a report from 22 Policy and Finance. 23 Q: Now, the -- this date of this entry, will 24 it assist you if we gave you your original -- 25 A: To provide the date?

1 Q: -- diary to -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- provide the approximate date? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: Commissioner, I just 8 need a moment to find that. 9 MR. RONALD MANES: And, Ms. Groskaufmanis, I'm 10 going to ask the same for Page 2. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 THE WITNESS: This would be one of those notes 15 that didn't have an exact date on it. So I would have said 16 it took place after Tuesday, July 13th, but prior to 17 Wednesday, July 21st. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 20 Q: All right. And what process did you go 21 through in order to -- 22 A: No, I just went to -- 23 Q: -- draw that conclusion? 24 A: -- the -- the notice, pretty well at the 25 beginning of this -- this book number 4, in the first

81
  1  statement the book is Tuesday, July 13th, and it's quite
  2  close to the beginning of the -- of the book.  But the next
  3  date that I can find is July -- Wednesday July 21st, the next
  4  dated -- 
  5                 Q:  All right, so between July 13th and July
  6  21st?
  7                 A:  Yes.
  8                 Q:  Date of that entry.  All right.  And then
  9  let me -- keep that -- keep that in front of you please, Ms.
 10  Cross, and let me take you to page number 2.  There is a
 11  notation there, would you read that notation for us?  The
 12  transcription is not complete?
 13                 A:  It says -- there's a number seven (7), it
 14  says:
 15                   "Scott Marentette --"
 16                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:  Just don't read out that
 17  it's a number -- 
 18                 THE WITNESS:  Oh, sorry.
 19                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:  -- on this one (1), okay.
 20                 THE WITNESS:  Okay.
 21                 MR. RONALD MANES:  The phone number.
 22                 THE WITNESS:  Home, and there's a check mark,
 23  it says:
 24                   "It did get --"
 25                 And then I believe -- on my -- the original

1 notes I said: 2 "It did get through." 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 5 Q: It did get through. And what -- do you 6 have any -- there's Mr. Marentette, there's a phone number, 7 home, and what is that next letter? 8 A: Oh, that's a check mark. 9 Q: Check mark, it did get through? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: What -- do you have any recollection of 12 what it is that got through? 13 A: I can't give you an exact recollection of 14 what went through. 15 Q: If we wanted to -- to find this at your 16 office, assuming it was there, how would we find out whatever 17 it was that got through? Let's assume it was a fax? 18 A: If it was a fax it would have been placed 19 in the DFS file once it was faxed. 20 Q: All right. Now, could you tell us using 21 your process there, as to when, as best as you can, this 22 entry took -- took place? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 A: Again, I would say that it's one (1) of 2 those notes -- pages that was not dated. And again, it would 3 come between Tuesday, July 13th and Wednesday, July 21st. 4 However, closer to the -- it's much closer in the notebooks 5 to the July 21st date. There's no exact date on the page. 6 MR. RONALD MANES: All right. Now, we have 7 just handed to all counsel, and to you, Ms. Cross, right now, 8 and, Commissioner, to you a -- another entry from your 9 notebook. 10 And on our photocopy there was a handwritten 11 notation, but I understand -- as a date, that was -- I 12 understand is your notation, so I'm not going to refer to 13 that. But I'd like you to -- and I'll tell you where to read 14 from. 15 I'd like you to read this note, which would 16 be, Commissioner, Tab 15. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 20 Q: And could you read from the middle where 21 it says, Gord's office? 22 A: "Gord's office." 23 There's an arrow, the phone number's 758-2382, 24 under Gord it says: 25 "Scott, Rob."

1 And then there's an arrow coming down from 2 Gord's office, will take -- 3 Q: What does that -- what does that mean to 4 you, anything? 5 A: To me that is in reference to the top of 6 the page, re, Michael Dell. 7 Q: All right, and could you read -- then read 8 the -- the reference at the top of the page? 9 A: "Interview is Tuesday night. Chair of 10 Newcourt." 11 And underneath that it says Michael Dell, and 12 then there's like a makeshift arrow: 13 "Send IT bureaucrats September 9th." 14 There's a phone number, 410-9469. And then 15 there's a: 16 "Possibly Four Seasons." 17 Q: Now, that's -- that's all in reference to 18 a meeting with Mr. Dell? 19 A: From what I can recall, Michael Dell was 20 coming to Canada. And he comes very rarely, and they were -- 21 they were having, at this point in time, I'm not sure if it 22 was confirmed, an event for different people in the IT 23 sector, be it the Government or non-government, to meet and 24 hear Michael Dell speak. 25 Q: All right, then if you go down, and after

1 the initials JR, but go below that. Can you read from that 2 point down? 3 A: Including the JR? 4 Q: No. 5 A: Okay. 6 "Round one (1) at the City, potential audit 7 MFP, six (6) to eight (8) months down the 8 line." 9 Q: All right, now let's just stop there. 10 "Round one (1) at the City, potential audit 11 MFP six (6) to eight (8) months down the 12 line." 13 Do you have any recollection of what those 14 notations -- 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes, they're having 16 trouble hearing you on -- 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 19 Q: Do you have any recollection of what those 20 notations mean? 21 A: No, I don't. 22 Q: And in particular, what it -- what audit 23 at -- audit in relation to MFP means? 24 A: The only recollection I have of MFP in an 25 audit was a situation that was happening at the Province. I

1 don't know much about the situation, just that there was a 2 situation with the Province. 3 Q: Would you read that -- the last three (3) 4 lines? 5 A: "MFP --" 6 There's a hyphen: 7 "-- below - Bank of Canada Rate. No way 8 that MFP could honour this deal. Same RFP 9 as Toronto." 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: What is the word after 11 MFP, sorry? 12 THE WITNESS: The first word? 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes. 14 THE WITNESS: Below. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Below. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 18 Q: MFP - below - Bank of Canada Rate. With 19 an arrow: 20 "No way that MFP could honour this deal - 21 same RFP as Toronto." 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: Now, any recollection what that entry 24 means? 25 A: No, I have no recollection of this.

1 Q: Now, in respect to this whole page, do you 2 have a recollection of -- of how -- how you came to make 3 these notations? Was it in relation to a meeting, telephone 4 calls? 5 A: It's -- 6 Q: Conversations? 7 A: -- it would be either one (1) of two (2) 8 things, a -- a conversation or a -- a voice mail message. I 9 couldn't guarantee you which one (1) it was. 10 Q: All right. Now, and particular in 11 relation to the last part you read, under JR, starting with 12 -- I didn't note the first word? 13 A: Oh, round. 14 Q: Round one (1) at the City? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then from that part down, do you have 17 any recollection of when those particular entries were made? 18 Round one (1) at the City, audit MFP six (6) to eight (8) 19 months, Bank of Canada Rate? 20 A: In -- in relation to everything else on 21 the page? 22 Q: Yes. Was this the same time, different 23 times? Same meeting? Co -- 24 A: It was mos -- it was the same day but I 25 couldn't tell you if it was the same conversation, if there

1 were two (2) conversations. 2 Q: Ms. Cross, to your knowledge, did Mr. 3 Lyons ever receive a confidential report from the Policy and 4 Finance Committee? 5 A: I don't recall him receiving a specific 6 confidential recommen -- confidential report from the Policy 7 and Finance Committee, no. 8 Q: All right. Did you ever see in your 9 office reports marked or documents marked confidential in 10 relation to the City of Toronto? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Do you have any spic -- specific 13 recollections of any particular confidential report that you 14 saw? 15 A: No, I don't. 16 Q: Do you have a recollection of how many 17 occasions over the period that you worked there that you 18 would have seen reports or documents marked confidential from 19 the City of Toronto? 20 A: I couldn't give a number of times. There 21 wasn't a regular basis. Time to time I recall seeing some 22 documents that say confidential but I couldn't tell you what 23 was contained in them. 24 Q: Now, you've attended committee meetings? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And monitored them? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you were there after the committee 4 meeting was over? 5 A: Sometimes, yes. 6 Q: Did you ever see Councillors or staff had 7 left confidential reports right in the room there? 8 A: There are times when reports have been 9 left, yes. 10 Q: As long as you've been observing 11 committees, for example, at the City was there any process by 12 which Councillors or anyone with these confidential reports 13 would be required to hand them in or destroy them or -- 14 A: Well -- 15 Q: -- anything like that? 16 A: I remember one specific occasion that 17 Councillors met in-camera and the reports were handed out and 18 then handed back but the normal process is that confidential 19 reports are s -- are handed out -- or distributed, sorry, 20 with agendas. 21 Q: And was it normal or was it only 22 occasional on your attendances when you saw reports left 23 behind on the table? 24 A: It wasn't regular practice. It was vastly 25 just a page maybe falling out but there were times when

1 things are -- were left.