1 2 3 4 TORONTO COMPUTER LEASING INQUIRY 5 6 7 8 ******************** 9 10 11 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE MADAM JUSTICE DENISE BELLAMY, 12 COMMISSIONER 13 14 15 16 17 Held at: East York Civic Centre 18 850 Coxwell Avenue 19 Toronto, Ontario 20 M4C 5R1 21 22 ******************** 23 24 25 May 5th, 2003

2
  1                        APPEARANCES
  2  Ronald Manes            )Commission Counsel 
  3  Patrick Moore  (np)     )
  4  Daina Groskaufmanis (np)) 
  5  Linda Rothstein         )City of Toronto 
  6  Lily Harmer    (np)     )
  7  Robert Centa    (np)    )
  8  Gordon Capern  (np)     )
  9  David Moore    (np)     )MFP 
 10  Fraser Berrill  (np)    ) 
 11  Ken Jones      (np)     ) 
 12  Brian Heller   (np)     )Ball Hsu and Associates Ltd.
 13  Melissa Kronick (np)    )CUPE 
 14  Raj Anand      (np)     )Lana Viinamae
 15  Bay Ryley      (np)     )
 16  William Anderson (np)   )Wanda Liczyk
 17  Valerie Dyer    (np)    )Dell Computers
 18  Jennifer Lynch   (np)   )
 19  Edward Greenspan (np)   )Jeff Lyons
 20  Todd White              )
 21  Hugh MacKenzie  (np)    )Jim Andrew
 22  Jennifer Searle (np)    )
 23  Bryan McPhadden (np)    )Brendan Power
 24  
 25  Joyce Ihamaki           )Registrar

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Franco David Carnevale, Resumed, 4 Continued Cross-Examination by 5 Mr. Todd White 4 6 7 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Ronald Manes 220 8 9 Certificate of Transcript 224 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 10:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: The Inquiry is now in session. 4 Please be seated. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Good morning, Mr. White. 9 MR. TODD WHITE: Good morning, Your Honour. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Carnevale. 11 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Just if you could help me 13 about -- I'm just trying to get a sense of how long you think 14 you might be today? 15 MR. TODD WHITE: I don't think I'll be any 16 more than a couple hours at the most. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Thank you. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 20 Q: Now, when we left last time you testified 21 that you're adopting your evidence from the Inquiry that we 22 read out last time as to the exact words that Scott used with 23 you during that meeting that you had with respect to the 24 language attributed to Mr. Lyons. Do you recall that? 25 A: I do recall.

1 Q: And so your evidence then was that opposed 2 to anything you -- you might have said to the police or 3 otherwise, your evidence is that what Scott reported to you 4 was this, that it's: 5 "Worth one hundred and fifty thousand 6 dollars ($150,000)." 7 Right? 8 A: Well, specifically I said that I recall 9 Tom said it's worth one hundred and fifty thousand (150,000) 10 and others are willing to pay more. 11 Q: All right. So, the words are that it's 12 worth one hundred and fifty dollars ($150) and the words are 13 not that it's going to cost one hundred and fifty thousand 14 (150,000) or it's going to be one hundred and fifty thousand 15 (150,000), right? 16 A: The word worth, if you were sp -- 17 specifically knew that word, yes. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And, in fact, I think the last question I 21 asked you and this is at Page 240 of the transcript was: 22 Question: 23 "So, your evidence then, so we can 24 understand it as opposed to anything else 25 you might have said. Your evidence now is

1 that what Scott reported to you was that 2 it's worth one hundred and fifty thousand 3 (150,000) and not it's going to cost or 4 it's going to be, right?" 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: Your answer is: 7 "That's right. That's right." 8 I take it you thought that as your own? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: Now, we've talked about your police 11 statement and I just want to ask you one (1) more question 12 with respect to that area because again, you've testified now 13 that you've -- you were -- you were simply paraphrasing to 14 the police and you admitted that you were paraphrasing to the 15 police during your statement with respect to what was said, 16 right? 17 A: I said that to the police, as well. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: So what you said to the police was simply 21 paraphrasing and what I'm going to suggest to you is this: 22 That if you had have had an exact recollection of what was 23 said, that you wouldn't have paraphrased; you wouldn't have 24 had to paraphrase. You would have been able to say, this is 25 what was said. Isn't that fair?

1 A: I wasn't asked to give a specific detailed 2 account of what -- what had occurred and I was hearsay of 3 what someone else told me. I didn't believe that my specific 4 words that day were that important to the situation. 5 Q: Okay. Well, I appreciate that but they -- 6 the police certainly didn't tell you or even suggest or 7 intimate to you that, you know, just give us a rough idea or 8 a paraphrase or -- they didn't say anything like that, right? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: And in fact, I thought you testified, last 11 time you were here, that when you spoke to the police, you 12 did your absolute best to tell the truth, the whole truth, as 13 best as you could recall it, to the of your ability, isn't 14 that what you were doing? 15 A: I believe, the phrase last week was, the 16 best of my recollection at the time, yes. 17 Q: The truth, the whole truth; that's what 18 you were telling to the police, right. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the truth as best as you could recall 21 it, right? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: The best of your ability, right? 24 A: At the time, yes. 25 Q: Right. So, my suggestion is this: If you

1 take a look at what you said, what you said is that it's 2 going to cost, or it's going to be $150,000, or something to 3 that effect, right? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: Well, what I'm going to suggest to you is 6 that, if you had have remembered that the actual words used 7 by Scott Marentette, were that it's worth, or the contract is 8 worth $150,000, you would have told that to the police, is 9 that fair? 10 A: Possibly. 11 Q: But isn't -- isn't fair that you would 12 have -- I mean, taking a look at your police statement, and 13 you have, that if you had of remembered that the words could 14 have been, the contract was worth $150,000, that you would 15 have said it as one of the list of things in your 16 paraphrasing, isn't that fair? 17 A: Possibly. 18 Q: But you didn't? 19 A: I didn't. 20 Q: And now you -- you testify that you have a 21 specific recollection that the exact words are, that it's 22 worth $150,000, but you don't even say that to the police at 23 all, that expression, right? 24 THE WITNESS: Sorry, Madam Justice? 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes.

1 THE WITNESS: We discussed the other day, he 2 uses the word, now, it was probably a few weeks after I met 3 with the OPP that I met with counsel. 4 I indicated at that time, what I believed to 5 be the words used. So, it's not like I'm doing it now. I 6 just wanted to -- 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I -- I have your point on 8 that. 9 THE WITNESS: Great, thank you. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 12 Q: When I say now, I mean, your testimony. 13 Your testimony is, so I understand it, and this is all that 14 really matters, is that you're confident that the exact words 15 used by Scott, are that it's worth -- the contract is worth 16 150? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And you agree that you didn't suggest that 19 that was even one of the possibilities to the police? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And so my question is this: Isn't it fair 22 that given -- given your evidence today, that you're -- you 23 have a recollection that is different from what it was at the 24 time you spoke to the police? 25 A: That's right.

1 Q: And so, now -- and again, from my reading 2 of your statement to the police, you couldn't seem to recall 3 exactly, and you could only paraphrase as to what was said, 4 when you spoke to the police, but afterwards, you developed a 5 crystal clear recollection of what was said? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: And so, I take it this is another one of 8 those examples where, as time goes by, and as time passes, 9 your memory gets better? 10 A: That's -- I don't believe that's a fair 11 statement, but the memory's there, my ability to recall it 12 gets better, yes. 13 Q: That's my point. So -- so, you're 14 memory -- 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: -- after you spoke to the police, is -- is 17 better afterward, than it is at the time? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: Well, let me put this suggestion to you, 20 and this possibility. Isn't it possible that -- that your 21 memory of what was said to you by Scott gets, you know, 22 slightly tainted, or altered, based upon what you hear from 23 other people, what you may read, what you might talk about. 24 Isn't that possible? 25 A: Could be possible.

1 Q: So, it may well be that your recollection, 2 your evidence that, you know, is the word worth, or the word 3 cost, or it's going to be, or something like that, just may 4 be faulty, is that fair? 5 A: I know I heard the word, worth. So, I 6 guess it's possible though. 7 Q: And that's the point I'm getting at, is 8 that, as time goes by, your memory must get confused and get 9 weaker, with respect to exact words and things like that, 10 isn't that fair? 11 A: It could be possible. 12 Q: Because the one thing you've also said 13 during your examination in-chief, when Mr. Manes was asking 14 you questions, and -- and throughout these proceedings, is 15 that one of the things that you've never forgotten, and 16 you've always remembered, is that the number that was talked 17 about was $150,000, right? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: And I'm going to suggest that what you 20 told the police was that you had some recollection, back in 21 October of last year, of -- of an amount of money being 22 $180,000. You heard that from Scott or from Rob? 23 A: But I indicated that wasn't a specific 24 number I recalled in -- in what context but I do recall 25 hearing another number. I'm not too sure where it came from

1 and I did indicate that to the OPP. It wasn't in context of 2 those two (2) phrases, though. I must had -- 3 Q: It wasn't in context? 4 A: Well, no. The -- the two (2) phrases I 5 specifically recall were: Tom says it's worth 150,000; 6 others are willing to pay more. I don't -- I know that that 7 number wasn't in those two (2) phrases. That's all I recall. 8 Q: But I'm going to suggest that what you 9 were suggesting to the police when they were asking you about 10 the number and what -- what you heard, that you had heard a 11 number of one eighty (180) and that you -- you don't know 12 where you got it from but it was out there. 13 A: No, I knew I heard from, it was either 14 Scott or Rob. I don't recall the context of what I heard it 15 in. That's why I said, I heard that number. I don't know 16 what that meant. 17 Q: Well -- and again, your -- your 18 explanation for any inconsistencies that may be in your 19 police statement to what you're testifying to, I take it is 20 that you weren't specifically asked for specifics or for 21 details or for things like that and so you didn't give a 22 verbatim account, right? 23 A: Possibly. 24 Q: Well, but that's what you said last time. 25 That's your explanation for why there are inconsistencies

1 between what you said to the police and what you're 2 testifying to? 3 A: I think I can only answer that to a 4 specific question but I don't want to generally say that's 5 the case. 6 Q: Well, were -- were you asked for specifics 7 of the conversation or -- or were you not asked for specifics 8 of the conversation? 9 A: I don't recall being asked for specific 10 wording or a specific location or anything like that of the 11 conversation. 12 Q: And again, with respect to this -- the 13 word cost or would be or contract is worth, your evidence was 14 the reason you said that is because you weren't asked for 15 specifics of the conversation, you just paraphrased -- 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I guess it's -- 17 MR. TODD WHITE: Right? 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: The only difficulty is 19 you've included the word worth and worth is in a different 20 context because worth is what he said here as opposed to what 21 he said to the police. 22 MR. TODD WHITE: I understand but -- 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 25 Q: We went through last time the

1 possibilities of -- or the various things that you've said at 2 different times and included a list of three (3) that we 3 could narrow it down to, right? Cost, be or worth, right? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: And your explanation for why you didn't 6 simply tell the police in October that the exact words used 7 by Scott, and then by Rob, were that the contract was worth 8 150,000 is because you weren't asked for the specifics of the 9 conversation, right? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And so you just paraphrased because you 12 never were asked for the specifics? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: I'm going to suggest that if you turn to 15 your statement at Page 41740. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: That's in Tab 5. 17 MR. TODD WHITE: After you -- 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: 417 -- sorry -- 40. 19 MR. TODD WHITE: 41740. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 21 MR. TODD WHITE: It's at page 9 at the bottom. 22 Number -- little number 9 at the bottom. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 25 Q: I'm going to suggest that after you tell

1 in detail what the conversation you had with Scott Marentette 2 was and then the conversation you had with -- with Rob 3 Simone, the police asked you this: 4 "Okay. I want to go back to the specifics 5 of the conversation real quickly." 6 And you say: 7 "Hmm hmm." 8 Question: "The figure that was mentioned?" 9 Your answer is: 10 "Yeah. Oh, that I recall -- I mean, I 11 don't know if (inaudible) but I heard 12 $150,000" 13 Question: 14 "Okay and you said you heard that twice?" 15 You say: "Heard that twice?" 16 And then there's an inaudible question and you 17 say this: 18 "I heard a number one eighty (180). I 19 don't know if that was one of the numbers 20 that was (inaudible) that I recall or that 21 I piece it together it was a number that 22 came out of the air of what someone else 23 was offering but I just remember if -- if 24 I'm mistaken, I just remember from the two 25 (2) conversations, one eighty (180) seemed

1 to be what someone else was offering or 2 that it was (inaudible) at one fifty (150) 3 but that number kind of stuck out in my 4 mind." 5 Do you recall being asked those questions and 6 giving that answer? 7 A: I do. 8 Q: So I take it that you couldn't recall at 9 the time -- you had a recollection at the time that it was 10 150,000 but you couldn't rule out that the number 180,000 was 11 also said in the conversation, right? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: Then if you go on, the next question is a 14 specific question that we talked about last time, but not 15 with respect to this, about the name Tom being mentioned. 16 Question, 17 "There was a name, Tom, mentioned?" 18 And your answer is, 19 "Yeah." 20 You said, that neither person ever mentioned a 21 last name. 22 Answer, 23 "No, but through our discussion, we through 24 -- see I don't think that I recall Jeff 25 Lyons mentioned Tom's last name, but I now

1 understand who Tom -- I thought (inaudible) 2 Tom Jakobek was a councillor at the time." 3 That's what you said. 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: And that was your best recollection, at 6 the time? 7 A: I believe I state that, yes. 8 Q: Now, I also want to talk to you about the 9 sort of context of that conversation. Again, we'll -- you've 10 now testified that that conversation took place with Scott 11 Marentette at a cafe over lunch, right? 12 A: At a restaurant, over lunch, yes. 13 Q: Well, in fact -- 14 A: Well, it's called Cafe De Le Gaffe, but 15 it's a restaurant. 16 Q: Right. Right. 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And, no matter what anyone says about that 19 because you read over a diary that has an entry, you're now 20 sticking to the fact that that conversation about this 21 reporting took place at a restaurant, and not at a bar over 22 drinks. 23 A: Right. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. -- Mr. Manes? 25 MR. RONALD MANES: I don't -- I don't think

1 that's fair to the witness. The witness expanded on that, on 2 the last occasion, that not only did the diary refresh his 3 recollection, but he gave his recollection as to the 4 particular activities that he engaged in that day to -- to 5 give his full recollection. 6 So, it's not fair to say it was just a diary 7 entry. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 11 Q: But -- but it -- you testified that you 12 took a look at this diary entry from December of 2000, right? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And, from looking at that diary entry, 15 your recollection, from what you had originally told the 16 police, has completely changed, right? 17 A: Not completely changed, but it did alter, 18 yes. 19 Q: Well, it completely changed with respect 20 to where it occurred, and what was happening when it 21 occurred? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: And so, that's based upon a diary entry 24 that talks about a lunch at Cafe De Le Gaffe on a certain 25 day?

1 A: That's right. 2 Q: Nothing in the diary notation about Jeff 3 Lyons coming up, or any discussions about that, or any notes 4 about that, right? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: And so, when I suggested to you last time 7 that Scott Marentette has testified that he recalls the 8 conversation being at a bar, over drinks, you said that he'd 9 be wrong about that? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: That's not where it happened? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: And again, you have nothing you can point 14 to on paper that -- apart from what you -- your version is 15 now, and your recollection, your clear recollection now, 16 you've nothing that you can point to in a police statement, 17 or in a document otherwise, that can show that, right? 18 A: Can show what, sorry? 19 Q: Show that the conversation about Jeffery 20 Lyons took place at the Cafe De Le Gaffe, as opposed to at a 21 bar when you and Scott and Daryl Chong were out drinking one 22 night, right? 23 A: I have don't have a document that shows 24 that's when the story was told to me, right. 25 Q: So, what we have is your word on that, and

1 your recollection on that? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: And you also testified last time, and 4 talked a bit about, the fact that, you know, the context of 5 the conversation, with respect to the Jeffery Lyons story, is 6 that it wasn't gossip, it wasn't rumor, it wasn't in the 7 context of anything like that, right? 8 A: I don't know what -- if whether it was 9 true or not what he told me, so I don't if it was gossip, a 10 story, or I mean, I conclude it's a story, but I don't know 11 in what context he was telling me. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: You asked me to answer that, I don't know. 14 Q: Let me -- let me start where you just 15 said. You don't know whether it was a story, you don't know 16 whether it was made up, you don't know whether he's reporting 17 hearsay that was told to him by Rob, or anything like that; 18 right? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And so -- and again, what I'm going to 21 suggest is this: Is that, after you heard Scott tell the 22 story, and after you heard a similar story from Rob, you 23 still didn't know whether or not this was a true story, or an 24 accurate story, or gossip or rumour or, you know, a fairy 25 tale, right?

1 A: That's true. 2 Q: And so when you talk about whether or not, 3 you know, you don't know Scott Marentette that well? 4 A: Not at that point, no. 5 Q: Well, have you got to know him better 6 since? 7 A: We had a number of meetings since but that 8 was the first time I met him. 9 Q: If Scott were to testify or Scott did 10 testify that, you know, what he told you and what he and Rob 11 had told people about this story was, you know, embellished 12 at first and, you know, repeated with not great accuracy. I 13 take it that you're not in a position to disagree that that's 14 -- may be what he told you when he met with you? Fair? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: And so if -- if he goes and speaks to the 17 police or to the journalist or to the Commission or anyone 18 else and tells the story -- tells the version of events as he 19 can recall it from his own recollection and it seems 20 different from what you've reported, you're not in the 21 position to say anything about that all, right? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: Because I'm going to suggest that when you 24 heard the story and even after you heard the similar story 25 from -- from Rob Simone, that you -- you had a view that, you

1 know, the story was embellished, right? 2 A: I didn't have a view that it was 3 embellished. I didn't know if it was embellished. 4 Q: But did you have a suspicion that it might 5 be? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Well, you see if -- I'm going to suggest 8 that you did. At the time that Scott told the story first, 9 you had a thought that it was embellished and then when you 10 heard it from Rob Simone you -- you still thought that it 11 might be embellished. Isn't that right? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Well, if I can take you to your statement 14 to the police at 41736 at the very bottom. The last -- the 15 last -- the very last line, you're talking about speaking to 16 Rob and Rob telling the same story and you say this referring 17 to Rob: 18 "He said the same thing and I thought -- 19 well, at first I thought, you know, it was 20 embellished but for the first one -- 21 Inedible (sic). 22 "-- Scott embellishing it." 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Inaudible, I think. 24 MR. TODD WHITE: Right. What did say? 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Inedible.

1 MR. TODD WHITE: Sorry, inaudible. Sorry. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 4 Q: 5 "The first one (inaudible) Scott 6 embellishing it but they were identical, 7 sort of. That's all I recall and those 8 were the stories I heard from the two (2) 9 of them. So, I mean, what -- I don't know 10 what else specifically you want to hear 11 about." 12 That's what you told the police during that 13 interview, right? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: So I'm going to suggest that at the time, 16 you did have a concern that this story may be embellished, 17 fair? That's what you're telling the police. 18 A: Possibly I could have used the wrong word. 19 I know -- 20 Q: But -- 21 A: I did use that word, of course, but I 22 didn't -- I don't know if I meant embellished or whether it 23 was true or not I think was the point. 24 Q: Well, I'm going to suggest that the reason 25 that you used the word -- you knew -- you know what the word

1 embellished means. We talked about -- 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: -- that when we first -- 4 A: I do. 5 Q: -- sort of -- I, sort of, first started 6 asking you questions, right? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: It means to exaggerate. To, you know, 9 sort of pump up a bit. To add a bit more colour just for fun 10 or just for whatever reason, right? 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: And I take it that what you're telling the 13 police is that when you heard the story, you -- you said you 14 know it was embellished. That's what you said? 15 A: Well, that's what I said, yes. 16 Q: Well, again, you're telling the police the 17 truth. You're being as honest and it's your recollection so 18 I take it when you hear -- hear the story -- 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You said -- sorry, Mr. -- 20 Mr. White, I just want -- I don't mean to interrupt on your 21 cross-examination but you've mentioned the other day in your 22 examination of Mr. Barrett that the stenographer who took 23 this down didn't put any punctuation in the police other than 24 a period. 25 MR. TODD WHITE: Right.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: So when you said: 2 "You said the same thing and I thought -- 3 well, at first I thought, you know, it was 4 embellished." 5 I didn't get sense from that that Mr. 6 Carnevale was saying that he knew it was embellished. I 7 thought it was the colloquial you know. 8 MR. TODD WHITE: Okay but -- 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Do you see what I'm 10 saying there? 11 MR. TODD WHITE: Right. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And the only reason I'm 13 mentioning it is you said in your questioned him now, you 14 said, you know it was embellished. That's all. 15 MR. TODD WHITE: Oh, I -- I understand. I 16 understand. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Do you see what I'm 18 saying? 19 MR. TODD WHITE: Yes. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 21 MR. TODD WHITE: Yes, I do understand. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. 23 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE:

1 Q: You thought that the story was 2 embellished, right? At the time you heard it? That sort of 3 what you told the police. 4 A: Well, that's what I'm wondering. Are you 5 asking me what I think today, or -- what I said to them is 6 clearly that. I said, you know, it was -- he said the same 7 thing, and I thought, well at first, I thought it was 8 embellished. 9 Q: Right. 10 A: That's what I said. Correct. 11 Q: So I take it that was your honest belief 12 at the time or otherwise you would never have suggested that 13 to the police? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: Are you telling the Commissioner now, that 16 your recollection is different? 17 A: No, I'm telling you now that my word or my 18 meaning for embellish at that time was -- I mean whether or 19 not it was true, I just didn't do anything with it. Whether 20 it was true or false, I didn't know. That's what I meant by 21 embellished. 22 Q: Well, one (1) of the reasons, I'm going to 23 suggest, that you thought that it was embellished and you 24 couldn't say whether it was true or not, was because at the 25 time, that you were hearing this story and hearing it from

27
  1  Rob and reporting it to the journalist, there were rumours
  2  going around about the same type of story, isn't that right?
  3                 A:  I don't know.
  4                 Q:  You don't know?
  5                 A:  I don't know.
  6                 Q:  If Scott Marentette or Rob Simone, were to
  7  have testified that at the time they met with you and at the
  8  time that they eventually met with the journalist that you
  9  asked them to go see, that there were stories and rumours and
 10  gossip, about this City of Toronto contract, about MFP, about
 11  Jeff Lyons, about the City of Toronto, I take it, that you'd
 12  have to agree with that?
 13                 A:  I'm sorry -- there's a lot of assumptions
 14  in there that I don't believe I can agree to a number of
 15  them.
 16                 Q:  Well, I'll ask you one (1).  You'll agree
 17  that there were rumours similar to the story that you'd been
 18  told about Jeff Lyons?
 19                 A:  I don't know.
 20                 Q:  You don't know?
 21                 A:  I don't know.
 22                 Q:  Okay, well, let me -- let me take you to
 23  page 41738 of your own statement that you gave to the Police.
 24  
 25                     (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you, that at 2 the time that you had this conversation, even before you had 3 this conversation with Scott Marentette, you'd heard stories 4 about Jeff Lyons and a request for more money or whatever, 5 from other people, including your colleague, your associate 6 who works on a contract with you, Daryl Chong. 7 Does that help refresh your memory? 8 A: Again, that's numerous points you're 9 making there. I don't -- if you can be more specific I can 10 say either yes or no to it. 11 Q: You heard rumours about Jeff Lyons from 12 Daryl Chong? 13 A: But, just to clarify, do you mean rumours 14 about the computer contract or -- 15 Q: Jeff Lyons -- 16 A: -- in general? In general, yes, you hear 17 rumours all the time, yes. 18 Q: Okay. And at the time, you were meeting 19 with Scott and still continuing when you're meeting with Rob 20 and meeting with Mr. Lakey, there were rumours going around. 21 Stories are going around about Jeff Lyons, right? 22 A: Yes, but -- sorry -- I just wanted to 23 clarify. I thought you meant in regards to this contract, I 24 didn't hear rumours. Just the story. I didn't hear anything 25 other than that. That's why I said that.

1 Q: Well, you see, with respect to this 2 contract, I'm going to suggest to you that what you told the 3 Police, there in the middle of the page, is about your 4 associate Daryl Chong. 5 And you say, that "C" introduced you to Scott. 6 Do you see where that is, that C, that's you. 7 A: Yes, that C is me. 8 Q: Middle of the page there. 9 "He was just trying to get work from Scott. 10 And 'C' I think had gone to school with 11 Scott and they were friends. So, when we 12 finally met, we recount the story -- 13 recount the story and then he told me the 14 story. 15 Question: 16 "That's the first time you heard of it, you 17 said you heard a rumour of it?" 18 Answer: 19 "Yeah, heard rumour. Well, Daryl had said 20 you should meet him, you should do this and 21 Daryl might have suggested that, you know, 22 he's got a story you should hear or 23 something to that effect, I don't recall." 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: Do you recall being asked those questions

1 and giving those answers? 2 A: I do, yes. 3 Q: And what you're telling the Police and 4 confirming with the Police, perhaps during the inaudible 5 portion, is that you'd heard a rumour of this story, before 6 you got it from Scott? 7 A: None of the details of it, just that there 8 was a story, you should meet with him, he had experiences, 9 why he's looking for a consultant, along those lines. Not 10 this specific story. 11 Q: Well, I'm going to suggest that what 12 you're talking about there, is the specific story that Daryl 13 Chong, got Scott to tell you. Isn't that what you're talking 14 about? The story about Jeff Lyons? 15 A: But, I believe this asks, why I should 16 meet with him and Daryl is suggesting, what I'm saying here, 17 is that Daryl told me, yes, he should meet with him, because 18 you know, there's some -- there's a story he should tell you. 19 He didn't tell me what it was. 20 I don't say here what it was. I don't even 21 know, before I met with him. 22 Q: Well, my point is this. Before you met 23 with Scott -- 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: -- you'd heard rumours about this type of

1 story about Jeff Lyons, isn't that fair? 2 A: I'm sorry -- this type of story about Jeff 3 Lyons, if you can be more specific in the question, I will 4 answer that. 5 Q: Well, you can't seem to help us as to what 6 rumours you heard about Jeff Lyons, right? 7 A: Well, no I can -- 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You didn't ask him about 9 rumours he heard. I'm sure you don't want to get into that. 10 I don't know if you do or not. I don't think he was asked. 11 MR. TODD WHITE: It's just that yesterday -- 12 last time he was here, he said there weren't any rumours that 13 he was aware of about any of this and that there weren't any 14 rumours going around. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And I hear him saying the 16 same thing today. He's saying about this computer contract. 17 Today, he said he had heard rumours about Mr. Lyons, but, he 18 thought that you were asking him about this specific 19 contract, and he didn't hear any about this. 20 Have I got that right? 21 THE WITNESS: That's right. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 24 Q: So, what you're saying is that the rumours 25 that you heard, had nothing to do with the story that Daryl

1 had Scott tell you? 2 A: That's right. I -- sorry -- you said, 3 that Daryl had Scott tell me. I don't -- just to clarify, I 4 don't recall Daryl specifically saying to him, Scott tell him 5 the story. So -- 6 Q: Well, isn't that what you're telling the 7 Police there, at 41738? 8 A: That I should -- Daryl was telling me that 9 I should meet with them. I don't recall at that meeting, at 10 that restaurant, Daryl saying to him, Scott tell him the 11 story, is what I just said. 12 Q: But, what you're suggesting to the Police, 13 is that: 14 "Daryl might have suggest that you know, 15 you got -- he's got a story you should 16 hear." 17 Or something to that effect, right? 18 A: Yes. Whether or not, he knew the story 19 before me, I don't know. 20 Q: But, you're suggesting to the Police, that 21 it was Daryl who brought up the subject of the story, as if 22 he had heard it before? 23 A: I don't know. 24 Q: Well, what are you saying to the Police 25 then?

1 A: Well, I'm saying, Daryl asked me to meet 2 with him, he'd be a good contact to meet with, try to get 3 this contract, and there's a story he should probably tell 4 you. 5 So, I don't know what the story was. This was 6 in advance of that meeting, I didn't meet with Scott yet. I 7 don't know. 8 Q: Well, is that in advance of the meeting or 9 is that at the meeting? Is that how you came to hear -- 10 A: No I -- 11 Q: -- the story from Scott Marentette? Or is 12 that something that Daryl said to you before you ever went to 13 a meeting with Scott Marentette? 14 A: Daryl had asked me, he had set up the 15 meeting with Scott Marentette. And that's when I indicate 16 here, that he asked me or he told me, you should meet with 17 him, and that's when he mentions that to me. 18 But, he didn't mention the story. It was 19 Scott that mentioned the story to me. 20 Q: Well, did he mention that Scott should 21 tell you a story, while you were at the meeting? 22 A: No, that's what I indicated earlier. I 23 said, I don't recall him specifically saying, Scott, tell him 24 the story. 25 Q: Well, let's talk then about the

1 explanation you've given to Her Honour, as to how that story 2 comes up. 3 You're there with your friend, Mr. Chong and 4 Mr. Chong's friend, Mr. Marentette, right? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: You want to do business with Mr. 7 Marentette's company? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: And your explanation is, is that this 10 Lyons story comes up in the context of Mr. Marentette telling 11 you, that he wants to retain the services for his company of 12 a lobbyist like you and Daryl? 13 A: We had the meeting, in the context of, 14 working on behalf of them. That's why we were meeting to 15 begin with. 16 Q: Well, I understand that -- but, you say 17 that they, the context of that story being told by Scott, is 18 in the context of him wanting to hire you? 19 A: I believe I said the conversation after 20 that story, was in the context of, him hoping to have us 21 hired by his company. Not, that he said, here's a story, I'm 22 doing this in context with this. 23 I believe I answered that the other day. That 24 same statement. 25 Q: Well, here's what I don't understand.

1 Your evidence is, is that you were there, Scott was there, 2 Daryl was there, you're sort of all on the same page, to get 3 employment for your firm with Scott's company. 4 And that from your discussions with Scott 5 during that meeting, he was all for the idea? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: But, the story he tells about Jeff Lyons, 8 is a negative story with respect to his experience with 9 lobbyists? 10 A: That's what I believed, yes. 11 Q: That's what you believed. And again, you 12 can't tell her Honor, why what it is that Scott felt was 13 negative, but you got the impression that the story was 14 negative? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: And so, here's what I don't understand. 17 If Scott's talking to you, and Scott says he wants to retain 18 a lobbyist for his firm, what I'm going to suggest that 19 doesn't make sense is that, in that context he's telling you 20 a negative story about a lobbyist that he had worked with. 21 That's what I don't understand. 22 A: I don't understand. You should probably 23 ask him, I don't know. 24 Q: You see, well, I'm going to suggest that 25 we all have, and that Scott Marentette's explanation was that

1 this took place over drinks, and you and he we're talking, 2 chatting about different things about, you know, politics, 3 City Hall, and gossiping about, you know, chit-chat. 4 And that this Lyons story came up in the 5 context of, sort of, rumors and what was going on at City 6 Hall, and contracts with the City, and things like that. 7 I'm -- I'm going to suggest that they may well 8 have been how this story got told, is that fair, or not fair? 9 MR. RONALD MANES: Excuse me. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes? 11 MR. RONALD MANES: Commissioner, is My Friend 12 suggesting to the witness that Mr. Marentette testified that 13 the context of this conversation was about rumors, because if 14 that's what he's saying, I don't recall that that was what 15 Mr. Marentette said. 16 On the other hand, if My Friend is suggesting 17 to the witness that the conversation came up in the context 18 of rumors, it's fair to put it that way. 19 MR. TODD WHITE: I -- I don't understand. 20 That's the point I'm making, that the context of the 21 conversation came up about rumors, and -- 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I thought that was how 23 you were -- 24 MR. TODD WHITE: Yes. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- saying it. That the

1 story came out in the context of rumor. Is that -- 2 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, yes, but they're two 3 (2) different implications. I thought My Friend was 4 suggesting that Mr. Marentette was bringing it up in the 5 context of rumors. 6 That is, that he had said, this is -- 7 something to the effect, this is another rumor that's going 8 around, as opposed to, it just being Mr. Marentette's -- the 9 context of the conversation that My Friend is putting to him, 10 was in the context of rumor. 11 And I -- 12 MR. TODD WHITE: Yes. 13 MR. RONALD MANES: -- all right. It's 14 allowed, then I no -- 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Go ahead. Do you 16 remember the question? 17 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't -- I don't, sorry. 18 Don't recall the question. 19 MR. TODD WHITE: Don't recall the question? 20 THE WITNESS: No, it's just in the last few 21 minutes. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 24 Q: I'm going to suggest to you that the story 25 was told to you, this is what Scott Marentette has testified

1 to, and I can read it to you, if you'd like, but the story 2 was told to you over drinks, having a chat, rumours, gossip, 3 innuendo in the air and flying around, and that's when Scott 4 Marentette told you the story. 5 A: No. 6 Q: My question to you is this: I take it 7 that you can't disagree with that statement. 8 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, that's where my 9 problem is. Did Mr. Marentette testify that the -- the 10 statement that he made, specifically was in the context of 11 rumours, innuendos, and all that other stuff that My Friend 12 just said? 13 Because my -- that's not my recollection of 14 what he specifically said. If that's My Friend's conclusion, 15 or he's putting that to the witness, that's another matter. 16 But, suggesting to the witness that Mr. 17 Marentette said, quote, "This was in the context of rumours", 18 et cetera, would be wrong, unless there's a transcript 19 reference that My Friend could refer to. 20 MR. TODD WHITE: I will. I will. I'll re-ask 21 the question. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 24 Q: I'll ask you this: Have you ever chatted 25 with Scott Marentette, or Rob Simone, about any gossip or

1 rumours that you heard about Jeff Lyons? Let me ask you that 2 question. 3 A: I don't believe so. 4 Q: You don't believe so? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: Well, so I take it when you say, I don't 7 believe so, you're not sure. You can't say positively that 8 you haven't had a discussion -- 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: -- with either one of them -- 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: -- about gossip about, or rumours about 13 Jeff Lyons? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And so, I take it, it's not out of the 16 realm of possibility that the discussion that you were having 17 with -- with Rob Marentette -- sorry, Scott Marentette, you 18 know, could have been right out of the rumour mill that he's 19 -- that you're just talking to him about it, right? 20 A: I'm sorry, I'm not -- confused by which 21 part could have been out of the rumour mill. 22 Q: The Jeff Lyons story. 23 A: Whether or not it was a rumour or not, he 24 didn't indicate to me. So, I don't know if it was rumour. 25 He had not said it was a rumour.

1 Q: So, your evidence is, is that you would 2 completely disagree at any suggestion that the discussion 3 rose during any discussion about rumours or gossip or stories 4 that you and he or anyone else present would -- would tell? 5 A: As I recall -- I'm sorry, I'm just -- 6 there's a few points in there that I want to clarify. You 7 asked me the other day, as well, how did we start this 8 conversation, you said chitchat and I said I don't recall the 9 specific chitchat. 10 So I don't recall what we discussed in advance 11 of that story so in context of that, I don't believe I can 12 answer, yes, there were rumours leading into the story. I 13 don't recall. 14 Q: So if there's suggestion in other people's 15 testimony that there -- there may well have been rumours that 16 were being chatted about, I take it you're not in the 17 position to say no, that never happened, fair? 18 A: That's fair. 19 Q: Okay because just so you know where I'm 20 coming from, Mr. Marentette testified about gossip and 21 innuendo and postulations about -- no, I'll read you the 22 question and the answer. It's at Page 59 -- 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Of -- 24 MR. TODD WHITE: -- of Marentette's testimony 25 of April 29th.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: April 29th? 2 MR. TODD WHITE: Yes. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I didn't think he was 4 here then on the 209th -- or it must be the 28th -- 5 MR. RONALD MANES: It was on the 17th. 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Oh, it was the 17th and 7 the 28th he was here. 8 MR. TODD WHITE: Okay, I have -- 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: There's Mr. Barrett on 10 the 29th. 11 MR. TODD WHITE: I -- I have printed at the 12 top Tuesday April 29th, 2003. Is that when I may have -- 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: That would have -- 14 MR. TODD WHITE: -- printed it out or 15 something? 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- been Mr. Barrett, 17 then. Mr. Barrett was the only witness on the 29th. I'm 18 going -- I'm just going by the website. So I'm assuming -- 19 MR. TODD WHITE: Let me grab the actual -- 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Can you give me some -- 21 just give me a couple words and I can look it up on the 28th 22 and see if it's that day. 23 MR. TODD WHITE: 24 "Okay and at the time between 1999 and 25 2002"

1 As an example. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. It's Page 59 of 3 April 28th. 4 MR. TODD WHITE: April 28th. 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right. 6 MR. TODD WHITE: I have it as April 29th, so 7 I'm wrong. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: No problem. We got it 9 quickly enough. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 12 Q: Question: 13 "And at the time between 1999 and 2002, as 14 an example, you had -- had heard stories 15 and speculations and innuendo and 16 postulation about this deal with the City 17 of Toronto, about Jeff Lyons, et cetera, et 18 cetera" 19 And Mr. Marentette's answer was: 20 "Yes." 21 Question: 22 "And I take it that you're now testifying 23 four (4) years after the fact, four (4) 24 years of gossip and -- and stories and 25 innuendo that's been fuelled by a number of

1 people, right?" 2 Answer: "I think I have agreed with that." 3 Question: 4 "And fueled by people like Mr. Carnevale 5 who you testified about having a discussion 6 with Mr. Carnevale about the City of 7 Toronto deal and about Jeff Lyons over some 8 beers?" 9 Answer: "Yes." 10 Question: 11 "And I think you made it clear in your 12 police statement but I'm not sure you made 13 it clear in your evidence about what you 14 thought the quality of the information that 15 Mr. Carnevale may have received that 16 evening when you were out drinking with 17 friends and chatting -- chatting with him. 18 I take it it's fair to say that the quality 19 of information that may have been passed on 20 by you or by others wasn't great, right?" 21 Answer: 22 "It was definitely from the rumour mill, 23 yes." 24 Question: "Right." 25 And then the Commissioner interjected and

1 said: 2 "It was definitely from what? Sorry, I 3 didn't hear." 4 And the witness said: 5 "The rumour mill." 6 Then Madam Commissioner said: 7 "The rumour mill? Okay." 8 The next questions is: 9 "And so -- and again, just so we 10 understand, I think you alluded to it last 11 time you were here. You can tell rumours, 12 you can tell gossip, you can tell stories 13 that are influenced by rumour and gossip in 14 a bar or when it's sort of an informal 15 setting but it's a lot more difficult to do 16 it when you're under oath at an Inquiry, 17 right? 18 Answer: "That's correct." 19 Question: 20 "And, in fact, what you said about your 21 testimony is that -- what you've tried to 22 do as best as you can is keep the gossip 23 and the rumours and the innuendo and that 24 sort of opinions of others that may have 25 crept in out of your testimony as best you

1 can?" 2 Answer: "That's correct." 3 Question: 4 "And so when you were meeting with Mr. 5 Carnevale, you were meeting with other 6 people and talking over drinks or talking 7 over lunch with whomever at the time you're 8 not?" 9 Answer: "Right." 10 Question: 11 "And I'm not trying to separate anything, 12 right?" 13 Answer: "No." 14 Question: 15 "You're, you know, I heard this. I heard 16 that. I hear this about Jeff and I was 17 present when Jeff was going this and I'm 18 wondering if it means this and I have a 19 view that it may mean that. You're just 20 talking, right?" 21 And the answer is: 22 "That's correct." 23 Question: 24 "Now you're in an Inquiry and you 25 understand..."

1 Et cetera, et cetera. I'm going to suggest 2 that you can't disagree with Mr. Marentette's statement as to 3 his discussion with you or what he was saying or in the 4 context of what he was saying, isn't that fair? 5 A: There's some points there I would disagree 6 with. For example, it wasn't in a bar, we weren't -- I 7 wasn't drinking, and it was at lunch, so in context to that. 8 Q: So, apart from the context that it was at 9 lunch and not at a bar -- 10 A: Yes -- 11 Q: -- I take it that you can't disagree with 12 anything I've just read out from Mr. Marentette's evidence, 13 fair? 14 A: I'm not too sure what you mean by, 15 disagree. That's what his statement is, not mine. 16 Q: And you can't say that it's wrong, right? 17 A: I'm sorry, if you can be more specific 18 about the question. You either have to go through every 19 single detail of what he said and how it may contradict with 20 what I said. 21 And I think it's too broad of a question for 22 me to just broadly say, yes. 23 Q: Well, I'm suggesting that it's not 24 contradictory to your recollection, because apart from those 25 very specific words, you don't really have a recollection as

1 to the context or exactly what was said, isn't that fair? 2 A: Outside of that, you're right, yes. 3 Q: And so, if Mr. Marentette is saying, that 4 the discussion that he had with you, regardless of where it 5 took place, because I even put it to him, whether it was at a 6 lunch or whether it was at a bar drinking, that it was, sort 7 of, gossip and stories and rumour mill stuff, you can't 8 disagree with that, right? 9 A: That's true. 10 Q: And you hear that story, and according to 11 you, you don't talk to anyone about it, do anything about it, 12 until more than a year later, when you speak to Rob Simone 13 and hear the similar story, right? 14 A: I believe I said the other day, I don't 15 recall if I may or may not spoke to people, in between, 16 before Rob Simone, but, I don't recall who they may have 17 been. 18 Q: But -- 19 A: Just to clarify that. 20 Q: -- you have no recollection whatsoever of 21 speaking to anyone, doing anything after you heard this 22 story, apart from hearing this story and thinking that's 23 interesting, right? 24 A: I'm sorry, the question is broad. You 25 mean in respect to what I heard in the story, not acting on

1 it or I'm not too sure what you mean. 2 Q: Scott told you a story. 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: You didn't -- a year and a half goes by, 5 you didn't call the Police, you didn't speak to a journalist 6 about it, you didn't take any steps that you can recall, or 7 having any discussions that you can actually recall, during 8 that entire period of time? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: That's the only point I'm making. 11 A: Then, that's right. 12 Q: And then a year and some bit later, if 13 your math or if your calculations are correct, you arrange a 14 meeting with Mr. Simone, and when you meet him at that 15 meeting, you specifically get him to tell you the story. And 16 it's similar, so you remember it, right? 17 A: I remember -- yes, sorry, you said it's 18 similar and you remembered it, I do remember the story, yes. 19 Q: Right. And so, he tells you and according 20 to your evidence, you can recall that he used the virtually 21 identical same words of the three (3) words that you can 22 remember, or the three (3) parts you can remember, that Scott 23 Marentette told you? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: And that's just the best of your

1 recollection today, right? 2 A: Of those key phrases, yes. 3 Q: Right. 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: And that's all you can recall is those key 6 phrases, right? 7 A: Well, no, there's other parts of that 8 conversation I recall, like me asking him, have you thought 9 about coming forward to the Inquiry and him saying, no. 10 Q: I'm talking about -- 11 A: Just the story. 12 Q: -- the Jeff story. 13 A: Okay, those were the exact phrases I 14 recall, yes. 15 Q: And so, you know, whether or not -- 16 whether or not, Rob Simone had been re-told the story or had 17 retold the story to Scott Marentette, or that Scott 18 Marentette was simply parroting what Rob Simone had told him, 19 you can't help us with that, right? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: But, you hear a similar story from Rob 22 Simone, and again you don't have any recollection of learning 23 anything different, right? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: And -- but, this time when you hear it,

1 now that you've heard it from both, Scott Marentette and Rob 2 Simone, you decided to report it to a journalist friend of 3 yours? 4 A: Sorry -- just wanted to clarify, I decided 5 to ask the question, is what I did first. I asked -- I mean 6 because I know we're following chronology, I asked the 7 question, have you considered coming forward, talking to the 8 Inquiry? 9 And he indicated, no, he didn't want the 10 hassle. Just I'm sorry -- because you made it seems like I 11 didn't do that. 12 Q: No -- 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think that last week, 14 he had expressed concerns for using that word, reporting to a 15 journalist. 16 MR. TODD WHITE: Well, that's not his concern 17 now -- 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon? 19 MR. TODD WHITE: That's not his concern now, 20 your concern now is that -- 21 THE WITNESS: I didn't indicate that either. 22 I just answered that part. I didn't answer your question 23 yet. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE:

1 Q: I'm not suggesting that you didn't say 2 that, I'm suggesting that after you had this discussion with 3 Rob Simone, where you hear a similar story and you learn 4 nothing new. You decide to have a discussion about this 5 story with a journalist? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: And according to your evidence at the -- 8 this Inquiry, you, you know, happened to run into a 9 journalist sometime later. You have a coffee with this 10 journalist. You're talking about what's going on at the City 11 Hall and then you decide that you're going to ask him a 12 question about this story that you'd heard? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And so you recount in readers digest form, 15 I take it, what story you heard and you ask what do you think 16 or words to that effect? Right? 17 A: That's right. What's your opinion of 18 this, what do you make of this? 19 Q: And it was -- it was -- again, the 20 discussion you were having was, you know -- you were, you 21 know, talking about information, you were -- you know, you 22 weren't gossiping. You weren't telling war stories. You 23 weren't telling fairy tales. You weren't exchanging rumours 24 or gossip, right? 25 A: That's right.

1 Q: You were just talking about business and 2 you decided to ask him a question about this story, what he 3 thought about it, right? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: Okay. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Well, let's get back to your meeting with 10 Rob Simone because the one thing you haven't mentioned, the 11 one thing you haven't said in your entire testimony 12 throughout these proceedings is any suggestion that after you 13 spoke to Rob Maren -- sorry, Scott Marentette that you told 14 Scott or suggested to Scott that you wanted to speak to Rob 15 Simone, right? You never mentioned that? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: And no suggestion in your evidence that 18 after you spoke to Scott Marentette you asked for Rob 19 Simone's phone number so that you could call him about this? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: But I'm going to suggest that that's what 22 happened, is that when you heard this story and he said it 23 was a discussion between his then boss at the time, Rob 24 Simone, you said you wanted to get Rob Simone's name and 25 number and call him and see whether or not he'd talk to you

1 about the story? 2 A: That's incorrect. 3 Q: That's incorrect? That never happened? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: So if there's any evidence to suggest that 6 the story was told to you and Rob Simone's name and number 7 was given to you and you contacted him by telephone, that 8 just never happened? 9 A: Absolutely right. 10 Q: Because according -- 11 A: It never happened at all. 12 Q: Okay because according to you, and I take 13 it you read Rob Simone's statement to the police? 14 A: No, I haven't. 15 Q: You haven't? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Would you have read his testimony? 18 A: No. I've indicated from the first day 19 that there were some excerpts from the transcript that I've 20 read but not verbatim and that's from a transcript. 21 Q: Did you read anything about that evidence 22 that Rob Simone -- 23 A: I don't recall. 24 Q: -- gave or Scott Marentette gave? 25 A: I don't recall reading that, no.

1 Q: So this is the first you've heard of it? 2 A: The first I've heard of what? 3 Q: That you're -- that you asked for Scott -- 4 Rob Simone's number and that you called him about this Jeff 5 Lyons story? 6 A: That's the first I've heard of this. I 7 have not done that. 8 Q: I see because I guess if we're to -- if 9 we're to accept what your evidence is after you heard the 10 story the second -- sorry, the first time, you didn't think 11 much of it. You took no steps to track down Rob Simone. You 12 took no steps to, you know, confirm the story you'd heard, 13 right? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: You had no interest? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: And according to you, no interest in 18 finding out whether you know or not Rob Simone could confirm 19 or contradict the story or whether or not it was just gossip 20 or innuendo, right? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: And no steps were ever taken by you to 23 contact Rob Simone in relation to this story by telephone or 24 otherwise, right? 25 A: That's right.

1 Q: And -- and again, I take it that you've 2 testified a number of times with Mr. Manes asking you 3 questions and My Friend from the City of Toronto asking you 4 questions, that you had no motive against Jeff Lyons to do 5 anything like that, right? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: That Jeff Lyons is, you know, a competitor 8 of yours and you may want the same contracts but that's it, 9 right? 10 A: Yeah. That's it. 11 Q: And again, just so we're clear, y -- I 12 take it that you would love to have had Dell as a computer 13 company client or DFS or MFP or something like that? You've 14 talked about that, right? 15 A: You mean at that time for that particular 16 contract? 17 Q: At any time. 18 A: Sure it'd be nice to get more clients, 19 sure. 20 Q: And a client like DFS or a big computer 21 company or a big computer leasing company or a leasing 22 company in general would be a great thing to have, right? 23 A: Possibly. 24 Q: Possibly? 25 A: Possibly.

1 Q: It's not fair to say that it would -- 2 would, in fact, be a great client to have? A big leasing 3 company or big computer company? 4 A: Not at the moment. 5 Q: Well, was it ever anything more than a 6 mere possibility or possibly it might be good to have a 7 client like that, or -- 8 A: No possibly, I have other clients that may 9 conflict on a financing point of view, as I indicated 10 earlier, where I probably wouldn't be able to act for anyone 11 right now, anyways, on computer related products. 12 Q: But, you testified that you would have 13 loved to have had Compaq as a client? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And I take it that's true? 16 A: At the time, yes. 17 Q: And so, what you wanted the Commissioner 18 to understand, is that you know, he's a competitor, but, 19 you're not jealous of Jeffrey Lyons at all, right? 20 A: No. 21 Q: You have no animus towards Jeffrey Lyons, 22 at all, right? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: You never spoke to Scott Marentette and 25 thought, you know, wow, anything about that story, right?

1 A: That's right. 2 Q: You didn't think, wow, at all about that 3 story, you thought it was interesting and didn't have any 4 interest in whether or not, it was significant or not, until 5 Rob Simone confirmed it, right? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And Rob Simone confirmed it, so you 8 decided that you know, you asked Rob, are you going to go to 9 the Inquiry, because at the time Rob confirmed it, it was 10 during the time that, you know, the Inquiry is being set up 11 and the Inquiry was scheduled to go ahead and things like 12 that, right? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And so again, no interest in encouraging 15 him to go forward, no interest in encouraging him or even 16 asking him to go to the -- a journalist or anything like 17 that, right? 18 A: No, but, that's a few questions. I had 19 asked him a question when he told me the story, of have you 20 considered going to the Inquiry? 21 Q: And his answer was, no. 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: And again, when it comes to your 24 discussions later on with Jack Lakey, your evidence as I 25 understand it, is that if Rob Simone wanted to speak to Jack

1 Lakey, that was his decision. You were just a facilitator, 2 that's it? 3 A: That's right. I was passing through the 4 request. 5 Q: Right. And I think the word that Mr. 6 Manes used, was the word, passive. That you were simply 7 neutral, you didn't care one (1) way or the other, whether he 8 spoke to Lakey, whether he went to the Inquiry or went 9 anywhere else, you were just neutral? 10 A: At that point, yes. 11 Q: Well, throughout, right? 12 A: Yeah, I think that's fair. 13 Q: Because you have nothing against Lyons, 14 never gossiped about Lyons, right? 15 A: I'm sorry -- I never gossiped? 16 Q: Anything negative about Lyons, not from 17 you? 18 A: No, that's right. 19 Q: And, of course, you've never embellished, 20 in your life, right? 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think he said he did. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 24 Q: Except apart from joking or apart from 25 something like that, you've never embellished anything?

1 A: I believe I said -- 2 Q: Whether you said anything or written 3 anything, you've never embellished, right? 4 A: I believe I said that if for the intent of 5 sarcasm and other areas, yes. 6 Q: No, no apart from, apart from sarcasm or a 7 joke, you've never embellished in anything you've said to 8 another person or written, right? 9 A: Yeah, I -- 10 Q: That's what your evidence was, right? 11 A: I don't recall any specific situation 12 where I've embellished. 13 Q: Right. You can't recall any situation in 14 your life, apart from sarcasm or a quip or a joke or -- 15 A: I don't recall. That's right. 16 Q: -- right. So you have no recollection of 17 ever embellishing anything in your life, right? 18 MR. RONALD MANES: I think the witness has 19 answered -- 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Carnevale, just hang 21 on -- Mr. Manes is -- 22 MR. RONALD MANES: I think the witness has 23 answered this same question a number of times -- 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes -- 25 MR. RONALD MANES: -- in the same way and My

1 Friend just continues to repeat it to him to make the point, 2 that the witness has testified that he doesn't recall having 3 ever embellished, aside from jokes or something like that. 4 I think we've established that's the witnesses 5 testimony. 6 MR. TODD WHITE: Okay, if we've established 7 that, then I'll move on. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 11 Q: And we have your word, on all of this, 12 right, that your motives against Jeff Lyons don't exist, your 13 -- you know, your lack of embellishments, your jealousy, we 14 have your word on that, right? 15 MR. RONALD MANES: I'm sorry. The witness is 16 under oath. 17 MR. TODD WHITE: I understand. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I have his evidence under 19 oath. 20 MR. TODD WHITE: Right. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: So, I take it that I have 22 his word, that he accepts what you had put to him earlier 23 that he has nothing against Jeff Lyons et cetera. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE:

1 Q: You've never been employed by Jeff Lyons; 2 right? 3 A: As a sub-contractor, yes. 4 Q: You -- you worked on a -- a project that 5 involved you working for Molson's, I understand? 6 A: Actually there was another project as 7 well. 8 Q: And how long did that project last? 9 A: I believe, if I do recall, about a month, 10 month and a half, in that range. 11 Q: But that's it? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: Of the four (4) years that you've been in 14 business, that's it? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: And -- 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Just so I am clear on 18 this. It doesn't matter if nothing turns on this, was the 19 Molson's ones a sub-contract of Mr. Lyons as well, or -- 20 THE WITNESS: No. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- working with him? No, 22 okay. So, it's just one (1)? 23 THE WITNESS: That's right. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 25

1 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 2 Q: And what's that, what contract is that? 3 The one (1) that you worked for Jeff? 4 A: Well, I mean, as I indicated earlier, I'd 5 rather not give client's names, but if -- 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, I gather -- 7 THE WITNESS: -- the clients -- 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- it's Mr. Lyons' -- 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- was the client, in 11 that sense, so -- 12 THE WITNESS: Yeah. It was for Mediacom. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 15 Q: Jeff Lyons hired you? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: His company hired you, I take it? 18 A: He hired me, yes. 19 Q: And that was for about a month? 20 A: About a month, month and a half, I don't 21 recall specific -- 22 Q: Okay, and that's it? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: Okay. So, you hear this story from Scott, 25 the story is confirmed by Rob Simone at this arranged

1 meeting, and once again, the only thing you say is, you know, 2 have you thought about going to the Inquiry about this, 3 because that was in the air? And he said, No, I hadn't, and 4 you left it at that; right? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: Once again, no -- no -- no wow from you; 7 right? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: And same story, no new information, no 10 wow, didn't mean anything to you; right? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: Okay. Because I'm going to suggest that 13 you were asked about this in your police statement, beginning 14 at the bottom of page 41738, after you say that, you know, 15 it's sort of the same story, those key points of the same 16 story, the officer asked you this: 17 "You said that -- ah -- this left somewhat 18 of an impression on you. Did you ever do 19 anything with this information?" 20 And your answer is this: 21 "Yes, I did. When I heard it from Scott, I 22 did it with -- you know, I just knew it was 23 hearsay, and I knew who the other person 24 was. When I finally met Rob and it was 25 really through sort of happenstance, having

1 to meet him, through like, because of my 2 cousin and everything. When he confirmed 3 the story, I thought, wow. And at that 4 time, you know, I knew the Inquiry was 5 under way, and I thought, okay, you should 6 get this -- get out this, is you know, this 7 is probably pretty relevant information, 8 and he seemed reluctant you know, well, no, 9 no, you know -- ah -- what are you going to 10 do, type of thing." 11 Do you recall being asked those questions and 12 giving that statement, so far? 13 A: I do. 14 MR. RONALD MANES: There is another very 15 relevant sentence next. 16 MR. TODD WHITE: Oh, I -- I'm getting to it. 17 MR. RONALD MANES: And it's not fair to the 18 witness to give the witness half of his statement, half of 19 his thought about this -- 20 MR. TODD WHITE: Well, I'm not being unfair 21 and I undertake to put it to him. But I want to go back to 22 the very beginning of the statement. 23 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, but the -- the issue 24 -- it's being suggested to the witness that he was not 25 passive in this, that he was more --

1 MR. TODD WHITE: Well -- 2 MR. RONALD MANES: -- than passive. And at 3 the next sentence he goes on to expand on what he meant by 4 the previous sentence, how can you not -- 5 MR. TODD WHITE: I'll put it to him, but we 6 all can read, it's all there. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think -- 8 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, the witness can read 9 it. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- just hang on. The 11 question that Mr. White was asking about had to do with the 12 word wow. 13 MR. TODD WHITE: Right. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: So, why don't we deal 15 with that point first, and then get on to the next sentence 16 afterwards. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 19 Q: What you're telling the police here, in 20 this portion of your statement that I've read out so far, and 21 I just read it to the sort of last period, so that nothing -- 22 I could never be criticized, but whatever. 23 What you say is: 24 "When I finally met Rob and it was really 25 through sort of happenstance."

1 You use the word happenstance to the police, 2 don't you? 3 A: Yes, I do. 4 Q: You suggest to the police and leave them 5 with the impression that you happened to meet him one (1) day 6 and happened to learn the story; right? That's what you're 7 suggesting to the police? 8 A: That's right. 9 MR. RONALD MANES: Well -- 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well -- 11 MR. TODD WHITE: I'm also going to suggest to 12 you -- 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Hang on. Yes...? 14 MR. RONALD MANES: It's just simply not what 15 the witness has testified to, and it's not what the witness 16 said to the police, because he said: 17 "It was through sort of happenstance having 18 to meet him through -- like because of my 19 cousin." 20 MR. TODD WHITE: Well, I can take him to the 21 earlier part, but it's clear -- have you read -- have you got 22 the witness synopsis, page 1 and 2? 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, that's -- 24 THE WITNESS: Well that's not mine. 25

1 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 2 Q: What's that? No, but you clearly left the 3 police with the impression, that you -- 4 A: No, well -- 5 Q: -- happened to run into Rob one (1) day; 6 right? 7 A: Well, just -- 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Hang on. It may be that 9 the police have that -- I'm not as interested in the synopsis 10 of what the police put together, as I'm interested in any -- 11 anything -- 12 MR. TODD WHITE: Right. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- that he actually says. 14 According to either him or Mr. Marentette, the police also 15 had an impression that it was a bar, which may or may not be 16 right, depending on who I believe here. 17 So, I'm more interested in what exactly he 18 said. 19 MR. TODD WHITE: Okay. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 22 Q: You used the word happenstance; right? 23 A: That's the second time I've answered yes. 24 Q: And what you -- what that word means is 25 like by chance; right?

1 A: Well, sure, it's a combination of two (2) 2 words, happen and chance, sure. It's -- yes, by chance. 3 Q: Happenstance means sort of by chance, just 4 like you ran into him? 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well -- 6 THE WITNESS: Well, I didn't say I ran into 7 him. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- I guess there's a 9 number of different ways that one could interpret 10 happenstance, it could be that he just ran into him. It 11 could also be that he hadn't planned, after meeting with 12 Scott Marentette, to be meeting with Rob Simone, and then it 13 happened that after that period of time -- after a period of 14 time, that he met with -- with Rob Simone. 15 So, I guess it's a little difficult to say it 16 can only mean one (1) thing. 17 MR. TODD WHITE: Let's talk about what you did 18 say. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 22 Q: You said when he confirmed the story, I 23 thought, wow. That's what you told the police; right? 24 A: That's part of what I told the police, 25 yes.

1 Q: All right. So, is it when he confirmed 2 the story you thought to yourself wow, or when you heard the 3 story you didn't think anything like that, which is true? 4 A: Well, when I heard the story, unlike with 5 Scott, I did happen to ask Rob after that, after hearing the 6 story that, have you thought about coming forward. And in 7 that context, I said, wow. You put a bit more emphasis to 8 it, I'm assuming you were in the room to know that I said, 9 wow. 10 But I said, wow, you know, and at the time I 11 said, with the Inquiry going on, and I say it there, have you 12 thought of coming forward. I -- I mean I think you're adding 13 more feeling to it. I just thought, okay, there's a 14 connection here and have you thought of coming forward. 15 Q: Well, but, that's not what your police 16 statement says does it? Your police doesn't -- statement 17 says, Rob told a similar story, and so given that the Inquiry 18 was you know, out there, I asked whether or not he was coming 19 forward and he said, no. 20 But that's not what you tell the police is it? 21 Isn't that fair? 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: He says: 23 "I thought you know, should get this out." 24 I guess what he's saying -- 25 MR. TODD WHITE: Right.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- it's not that he 2 told -- 3 MR. TODD WHITE: He didn't -- right, he 4 didn't -- 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- to tell Rob -- 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 8 Q: -- mutually or passively just ask whether 9 or not he was going to the Inquiry, to which he responded no, 10 what you tell the police is that you thought, wow, and at the 11 time, you know, I know the Inquiry was underway, and I 12 thought, okay, you know, should get this out. Get out this 13 or get this out, as you know this was probably pretty 14 relevant information. 15 That's what you're telling the police; 16 correct? 17 A: And then I asked the question, yes. 18 Q: But that's what you're telling the police? 19 A: Well you put a bit more emphasis on how I 20 said it, but -- 21 Q: No. 22 A: -- no. 23 Q: These are the words that you used? 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, no, I guess what 25 he's saying --

1 THE WITNESS: Like -- 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- what he's saying, in 3 fairness, Mr. White, is you're putting an emphasis on it that 4 he said -- he feels he did not put on it. All we have here 5 is a transcript with no emphasis. 6 MR. TODD WHITE: Sorry, I'll -- I'll do it as 7 benignly as possible. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 10 Q: You thought, wow; right? That's what you 11 told the police? 12 A: That was part of the entire conversation 13 to the police, yes. 14 Q: But those are the words you used, when you 15 heard the story from Rob, you thought, wow? 16 A: In my head. I didn't say it out loud, I 17 thought wow, and then I proceeded to ask, have you considered 18 going forward to the Inquiry. I think you're trying to read 19 in to my mind at the time, and that's what I thought. 20 Q: But now, what you're saying to the police 21 is that you thought it was important, you thought it was 22 pretty relevant information; right? 23 A: That's why I asked the question, yes. 24 Q: And you thought he should get this out? 25 A: Well, by asking the question I thought,

1 have you considered about coming forward? That is in essence 2 my portrayal of, have you thought about getting this out? 3 Have you thought about talking to the Inquiry, that is the 4 process of getting it out. 5 Q: I see. And then you go on: 6 "I didn't really push him to, but I -- I 7 know -- ah -- what are you going to do type 8 thing. And I really didn't push him 9 [sorry, I'm reading it wrong]. 10 I didn't really push him to, but, I thought 11 one (1) of the ways to get him to come 12 forward, I believed, I just knew from 13 conversations, that there was no way he was 14 going to voluntarily come forward and I 15 didn't feel comfortable in saying, because 16 it was hearsay that these two (2) 17 individuals (inaudible), so I was having a 18 conversation with --I regularly do --" 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: As I regularly do. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 22 Q: "-- as I regularly do, at City Hall, with 23 Jack Layton from the Toronto Star." 24 That's what you said? 25 A: It's Jack Lakey.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Did you say Jack Layton? 2 You probably said, Jack Lakey, and the stenographer wrote 3 down Jack Layton. 4 THE WITNESS: Possible. 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 8 Q: Whatever -- but, that's what you told the 9 Police? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: So, what I'm suggesting to you, is what 12 you're telling the Police, doesn't sound like you don't have 13 an interest or that you're neutral and just asking, you know, 14 are you going to the Inquiry, no, okay. 15 What you're telling the Police, is that you're 16 thinking, this is, wow, probably pretty relevant, you should 17 get this information out, and so you went and spoke to a 18 journalist from the Toronto Star? 19 A: I had -- 20 Q: Isn't that what you're telling the Police, 21 yes or no? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: And so, it's quite different from the 24 presentation you've given to this Inquiry, like you didn't 25 think it was relevant, you didn't care?

1 A: I did ask and obviously I've told everyone 2 that I did ask for his opinion. I wasn't sure at the time, 3 what it was. This conversation with the OPP, happened after 4 all of that. 5 So, they didn't ask specifically, 6 chronologically, what happened here, what happened there. 7 After I spoke to the Toronto Star, Jack Lakey and he 8 indicated to me, wow, this is big, this is in context with 9 learning all of that, along the way. 10 Had this been asked to me right after that 11 meeting with Rob Simone, I would have thought, I really 12 didn't know what it was, and when I happened to have a 13 conversation with Jack Lakey, and I asked, what's your 14 opinion of this, that's when he says, he says, wow, so I 15 don't know. 16 I just -- at that point, it was the only time, 17 it really occurred to me, that well, maybe this is bigger 18 than what I actually thought it was. So, I'm just answering 19 your question. 20 Q: Well, let's not speculate, I want to ask 21 you about -- 22 A: I'm not speculating. 23 Q: -- what you said to the Police. 24 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, that's not fair. The 25 witness wasn't speculating. He's giving his state of mind,

1 at the time. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think that's fair. 3 Okay. Go ahead. Next question, please. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 6 Q: What you tell the Police, is that your 7 thought process at the time, was that you thought, wow, 8 right? 9 A: I didn't say my thought process at the 10 time. But, I did say, wow. 11 Q: Well, see I was trying to be fair to you, 12 given your last answer. That you may not have said to, Rob 13 Simone, wow, but, I thought you'd said that you thought, wow 14 and your word is simply, I thought wow. 15 So, I'm assuming that it's only a thought 16 process that's going on, that you didn't jump -- 17 A: Sorry -- sorry -- I just -- 18 Q: -- up and say, wow. 19 A: -- you said I said to them, my thought 20 process was, wow. And I didn't say to them that that -- I 21 didn't say those words, I thought that's what you meant, 22 sorry. 23 Q: I'm paraphrasing -- 24 A: Sorry -- 25 Q: -- what you're expressing to the Police,

1 is that when you heard this story from Rob Simone, you 2 thought, wow, right? 3 A: It was okay -- wow, this is interesting, 4 have you thought about coming forward. You say, wow, in such 5 an excited tone, it wasn't the case. 6 Q: Well, the word, wow, is there a non- 7 excited tone, for that word? It's a pretty strong word, 8 isn't it? 9 A: I don't know if it's a strong word, but, I 10 don't know. 11 Q: You don't know? 12 A: I don't know. 13 Q: And what you tell the Police, is not 14 whether or not, you were wondering whether this guy would go 15 forward or not, but, what you were wondering, and what you 16 thought, is that this story should get out, that it was 17 probably pretty relevant information, that's what you 18 believed, right? 19 A: I came to believe that after I finally 20 spoke to Jack Lakey, yes. 21 Q: I see. And again, Jack Lakey, another 22 benign conversation, you just happened to ask him a question 23 and he responded and that's when you decided that it was, 24 wow, right? 25 A: He said, wow, to me.

1 Q: Right. So, let me ask you this. Did you 2 -- when you spoke to Jack Lakey, did you share the, wow view, 3 now? 4 A: I'm sorry? 5 Q: Did you still have the, wow view, or have 6 you never had the wow view? 7 A: Sorry -- 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: It's a -- well, I guess, 9 I understand the question, it's just the way in which you're 10 putting it. It's a little convoluted. 11 I think, Mr. White, you're -- in your Police 12 statement, Mr. Carnevale, you say, I thought, wow. Okay. 13 Now, whether it's in the same way that Mr. White puts it or 14 not, it doesn't really matter, but it's just words here, and 15 we don't have the intonation in the words. 16 And what we're trying to get -- what we're 17 trying to find out from you is, did you feel that it was a 18 big thing, or was it after you spoke with Mr. Lakey that you 19 felt it was a big thing, or did you think it was right from 20 the very start? 21 THE WITNESS: I thought -- 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Regardless of how you -- 23 THE WITNESS: -- yeah. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- categorize the word 25 wow.

1 THE WITNESS: I thought it was a bigger thing 2 from hearing it from Rob -- after hearing it from Rob than I 3 heard it from Scott, and that's why I asked the question. 4 And I absolutely thought it was a bigger thing after hearing 5 from Jack Lakey, and I'd agreed, yes, I'll ask Rob on your 6 behalf if he's interested in talking to you. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 9 Q: You see, because you just testified a few 10 minutes ago, that after you heard it from Rob the second 11 time, you didn't think it was a bigger thing? 12 A: But actually, no, I said I thought it was 13 big enough that I asked him the question, have you thought 14 about coming forward, so I would disagree with your 15 statement. 16 Q: No, no, you see you thought it was 17 interesting enough, and you knew that the Inquiry was 18 ongoing, so you just said that you asked whether or not he 19 was coming forward. That's what you've testified to so 20 far -- 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well -- 22 MR. TODD WHITE: -- what -- 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- we have -- 24 MR. TODD WHITE: -- that's on the record, so 25 let me ask you this question.

1 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 2 Q: What is it about what Rob told you, that 3 made you think this was a bigger thing than it was before -- 4 A: The timing of it. 5 Q: -- confirming the information? 6 A: Simply the timing of it, when Scott told 7 me there was no Inquiry, but when Rob told me, it was just 8 the timing of what we were reading about daily, what we knew 9 to be a -- you know, an Inquiry picking up, and looking for 10 people with information. 11 Q: Well, had -- had -- when you were reading 12 the -- that the Inquiry was coming up, had you forgotten what 13 Scott had told you about this, so you didn't think it was 14 important then? 15 A: I hadn't forgotten about it, I just -- I 16 had no motivation to call Scott and say, have you thought of 17 coming forward? It just didn't cross my mind, I guess. 18 Q: Is it possible that you just never thought 19 of it in relation to the Inquiry, what Scott had told you; is 20 that possible? 21 A: I -- I don't know. 22 Q: Well I take it then, it's possible? 23 A: It could be possible, sure. 24 Q: And then because the Inquiry's coming 25 forward, and you hear the story from Rob, you -- you believe

1 that he -- he should come forward to get this story out? 2 A: I don't know if I believed it at that 3 point, I just believed that it was a bit bigger than what I 4 initially heard it to be, in that well, you know, is this 5 relevant or not. Have you considered coming forward? So, I 6 did perceive it to be much bigger than what I heard from 7 Scott. 8 Q: So again, this was -- this was not -- this 9 story that you heard from Rob, not a story that you say -- 10 you said you've heard it from Scott, but it's not a story 11 that you'd heard being told or anything like that? 12 A: I don't believe so, no. 13 Q: And it's not that this sort of story was 14 known by other people or anything like that. You just had 15 now heard it from Rob, it was similar to what Scott said, and 16 that's it; right? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: Because if we can continue on with what -- 19 what you're doing, I suggested to you last time that you 20 regularly met with Jack from the Toronto Star, and you said, 21 no. You said you occasionally do. 22 But your language here to the police said: 23 "I was having a conversation with -- as I 24 regularly do at City Hall with Jack --" 25 Whatever it is from the Toronto Star. That's

1 what you said to the police; right? 2 A: Regularly at City Hall, this one (1) just 3 happens to be with Jack, I don't regularly have coffee with 4 Jack, I think that was -- I think you're reading into that. 5 I'm regularly at City Hall, that's partly where I do my work. 6 Q: So, you were having a conversation with, 7 as I regularly do at City Hall, with Jack whoever, from the 8 Toronto Star, what that -- when you say the word regularly, 9 what you mean is that you're regularly at City Hall, and that 10 you're not regularly having a conversation with Jack Lakey? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: I see. And then you say this, and this is 13 what you told the police: 14 "And at that point I knew other people out 15 there had heard this story or something 16 similar to it." 17 That's what you told the police; right? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: So -- so, which is it, did -- did you know 20 at the time, that this story was out there, or that you -- 21 that other people knew it, or did you not know at the time 22 that that story was out there or that other people knew it? 23 A: Well -- 24 Q: Which is right? 25 A: -- well, I actually knew that Daryl Chong

1 knew it, so there are other people out there who knew it. 2 Q: My -- my question is this. At the time, 3 at that point in time, did you know that other people out 4 there had heard this story or something similar to it, or did 5 you not know that? That's my question, which is true? 6 A: I don't believe -- I don't recall the 7 specific phrase I used, but I never had the impression from 8 them, from Scott or Rob, that I was -- this was a secret for 9 me and I was the only person that they were saying this to. 10 So, I think in context to that, I never 11 believed for a second, I was the only person who knew the 12 story. 13 Q: Well, you're not telling the Police, I 14 don't believe for a second, that this is a secret that I'm 15 the only person who knows that. 16 What you're telling the Police, is that you 17 knew, other people not only knew this story, but, stories 18 that were similar to it? That's what you're saying aren't 19 you? 20 A: That is what I said, yes. 21 Q: And when I read that to mean, is that the 22 story about, you know, Jeff Lyons was out there in the rumour 23 mill, you heard that other people were talking about it and 24 other people knew about it? 25 A: Well, I knew Daryl Chong knew about it.

1 Q: That's what you meant? 2 A: Well, he's part of what I meant. I just 3 -- I wasn't being -- they didn't specifically asked, who knew 4 this story that I knew of -- 5 Q: But, you're the one (1) who says, other 6 people knew that story. I take it that based on your 7 evidence, Daryl Chong was present when this story was told, 8 so he'd know exactly that story, because he was there with 9 you at the lunch, right? 10 A: Sure. 11 Q: But, what you're suggesting to the Police, 12 is not that -- you know, you've told the Police earlier on a 13 number of times, that Daryl Chong was with you, Scott 14 Marentette, you and Daryl Chong, that's when this 15 conversation with Scott Marentette took place, right? 16 A: At lunch, yes. 17 Q: That's not what you told the Police? 18 A: Oh, sorry, I thought -- I didn't know you 19 were referring to this, yes. 20 Q: You told the Police at this point in your 21 statement, that Daryl Chong was present, it was a discussion 22 at a bar, while you were drinking and Daryl Chong was there, 23 right? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: So, are you telling Her Honour, that when

1 you tell the Police, that at this point, I knew other people 2 out there had heard this story, or something similar to it, 3 it's not that there was rumours or gossip out there that you 4 had heard, that was the same story, or similar to it, it's 5 that Daryl Chong, also knew? 6 A: Well I think -- 7 Q: Is that what you meant when you said that? 8 A: Well, I know he -- I know for a fact, that 9 he also knew. But, I think it's also -- the OPP are asking 10 me questions about this story. 11 I'm hearsay, and I wasn't in the position, 12 where I'm the only person, you know, I didn't really want to 13 be part of this. This wasn't -- I was hearsay. 14 So, I knew other people -- I wasn't the only 15 person to know it, and I indicated that and that was simply 16 it. 17 Q: But, that's not what your statement says. 18 Your statement says, while I'm sitting here with your 19 Officer, I'm not the only person who knows this story -- 20 A: That's right, Daryl Chong knows it. 21 That's a very accurate statement. 22 Q: No, what you're saying is, that at the 23 time, at the time that you were speaking to Jack Layton or 24 Jack Lackey -- 25 A: Jack Lakey --

1 Q: -- from the Toronto Star, and at the time 2 you were speaking to Rob Simone, you knew that other people 3 out there, had heard this story or something similar to it. 4 That's what you're saying, isn't it? 5 A: I guess that's what I said, I don't know. 6 Q: And I take it that what that means is, is 7 that you'd heard stories or similar stories that other people 8 were telling you, at the time, isn't that fair? 9 A: Could be. 10 Q: And so one (1) of the reasons, one (1) of 11 the many reasons, I take it, you go forward is because the 12 gossip is already out there about this story and about Jeff 13 Lyons, so you'll ask your journalist or tell your journalist 14 friend, about what you know about the story, isn't that 15 what's going on? 16 A: I asked for his opinion, yes. 17 Q: But, what's going on is because you asked 18 for his opinion, you share this information with him to get 19 his view on it, because you know that there's lots of stories 20 going on out there about Jeff Lyons and you know there's an 21 Inquiry that's just about to start, and so you thought, you 22 know, in the mix of all the gossip out there and the Inquiry 23 starting, what do you think of this story? Isn't that what 24 happened? 25 A: In context of the Inquiry, yes.

1 Q: Okay. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Then you go on talking about your 6 discussion, you conversation with Jack Lakey, from the 7 Toronto Star. 8 "To -- we're having a conversation where 9 the stories came out. And I said, I know 10 the person who was in the meeting, but, you 11 know, I don't think he's going to come 12 forward." 13 That's what you say to the Police, correct or 14 not correct? 15 A: I'm sorry -- I'm just looking for that 16 specific sentence. 17 Q: Right after we left off. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: He doesn't have the same 19 highlighter that we have. 20 MR. RONALD MANES: Right after Jack Layton. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 23 Q: Jack Layton from the Toronto Star. 24 "And at that point, I knew other people had 25 heard this story or something similar to

1 it. To -- we're having a conversation 2 where the stories came out and I said, I 3 know the person who