1 2 3 4 TORONTO COMPUTER LEASING INQUIRY 5 6 7 8 ******************** 9 10 11 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE MADAM JUSTICE DENISE BELLAMY, 12 COMMISSIONER 13 14 15 16 17 Held at: East York Civic Centre 18 850 Coxwell Avenue 19 Toronto, Ontario 20 M4C 5R1 21 22 ******************** 23 24 25 May 1st, 2003

2
  1                        APPEARANCES
  2  Ronald Manes            )Commission Counsel 
  3  Patrick Moore  (np)     )
  4  Daina Groskaufmanis (np)) 
  5  Linda Rothstein         )City of Toronto 
  6  Lily Harmer    (np)     )
  7  Robert Centa    (np)    )
  8  Gordon Capern  (np)     )
  9  David Moore    (np)     )MFP 
 10  Fraser Berrill  (np)    ) 
 11  Ken Jones      (np)     ) 
 12  Brian Heller   (np)     )Ball Hsu and Associates Ltd.
 13  Melissa Kronick (np)    )CUPE 
 14  Raj Anand      (np)     )Lana Viinamae
 15  Bay Ryley      (np)     )
 16  William Anderson (np)   )Wanda Liczyk
 17  Valerie Dyer    (np)    )Dell Computers
 18  Jennifer Lynch   (np)   )
 19  Edward Greenspan (np)   )Jeff Lyons
 20  Todd White              )
 21  Hugh MacKenzie  (np)    )Jim Andrew
 22  Jennifer Searle (np)    )
 23  Bryan McPhadden (np)    )Brendan Power
 24  
 25  Joyce Ihamaki           )Registrar

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Franco David Carnevale, Resumed, 4 Continued Cross-Examination 5 by Mr. Todd White 4 6 7 Certificate of Transcript 249 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 10:00 a.m. 2 3 REGISTRAR: The Inquiry is now in session. 4 Please be seated. 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Good morning, Mr. White, 6 Mr. Carnevale. 7 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 8 9 (WITNESS RESUMES) 10 11 CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TODD WHITE: 12 Q: Mr. Carnevale, you'll recall that 13 yesterday, I was trying to discover a little bit about your 14 company's past experience. 15 I was asking you -- you confirmed yesterday 16 that your company, City Hall Group, lobbies municipal 17 governments on a number of issues. 18 And one (1) of the things that your company 19 lobbies for, is you assist clients in securing contracts or 20 getting their products and services sold to, for example, a 21 municipality. 22 Do you recall that? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you were reluctant and did not feel 25 comfortable answering any of those questions about what

5
  1  products, for example, your company has lobbied on behalf of.
  2                 And I take it the reason for that is, as been
  3  said yesterday, is that you know, the clients that your
  4  company has acted for, since you're -- since over the years,
  5  is confidential and private and you don't want to be
  6  disclosing any of the names of their companies or any of
  7  their products, because that might give away the names,
  8  right?
  9                 A:  Well, yes, in part.  But, I don't believe
 10  I said, in the public, not to tell people who they are.  It's
 11  just for this Inquiry.  
 12                 I think speaking to my clients, this isn't a
 13  place since their names should be discussed, since they
 14  haven't given me permission to discuss their names here.
 15                 To clarify that -- it is in the public domain.
 16                 Q:  No, you see, because that's why I'm going
 17  to suggest that yesterday you were being evasive, and I'm
 18  going to suggest simply dishonest, when you refused to
 19  provide any of that information to the Commissioner.
 20                 What I'm going to suggest to you, is that the
 21  products, for examples, that you've lobbied governments are
 22  not only in the public domain, they may well be known by
 23  hundreds or thousands of people, fair to say?
 24                 A:  That could be the case, yes.
 25                 Q:  So, as far as any confidentiality or any

1 privacy and your reluctance to give up clients names, you're 2 now saying, your evidence today is, that you're just not 3 prepared to tell the Commissioner, in this Inquiry. 4 MR. RONALD MANES: That's not what he said, 5 Commissioner, with great respect. 6 MR. TODD WHITE: I'm suggesting that's what he 7 means. 8 MR. RONALD MANES: What he actually just said, 9 three (3) minutes ago, was that he had no permission from his 10 clients to use their names in the context of this Inquiry. 11 That's where his reluctance came from, he 12 explained yesterday -- or explained today, what he meant 13 yesterday. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 16 Q: Well, I'm going to suggest to you is this. 17 You've never taken any steps to ask any of your clients if 18 you can mention them at the Inquiry, correct? 19 A: I have. 20 Q: You have taken steps? 21 A: Yes, not every single one (1) of them, 22 but, I have taken steps. 23 Q: Well, just so we understand it, you're 24 going to talk about them today. Because they're in the 25 public domain, and in fact, yesterday after I left the

7
  1  Inquiry, I was seriously concerned about your evidence and I
  2  thought to myself, that a lobbyist and their clients, is not
  3  only in the public domain, but, it's to a lobbyist or to a
  4  consultant's advantage, for the public and the world to know,
  5  who their clients have been.
  6                 And I'm going to suggest to you, that's
  7  basically true, isn't it?
  8                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:  Well,  Mr. Manes, do you
  9  have a comment to make on that?
 10                 MR. RONALD MANES:  I wondered if there was a
 11  question in there?  Is the question whether a lobbyist -- the
 12  clients of a lobbyist are in the public domain?  
 13                 Is that what he's asking the witness?  If so,
 14  then I have no objection.
 15  
 16  CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 
 17                 Q:  The clients -- your clients are in the
 18  public domain, fair?
 19                 A:  When you say in the public domain, they
 20  operate publicly, I mean they're -- they sell their products
 21  and their services.  I'm not too sure what you mean.
 22                 Q:  You're not too sure what I mean.  
 23                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:  Mr. White, I think that's
 24  a perfectly valid answer for a witness to give.  If he's not
 25  too sure what you mean, there's nothing wrong with saying

1 that. 2 MR. TODD WHITE: I just repeated it, that's 3 all. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I know that there's a 5 tone in the repetition. Well, I'm just letting you know, 6 from my perspective, as Commissioner of this Inquiry, I have 7 no difficulty with a witness making a comment like he made, 8 saying, I'm not sure what you mean. 9 In fact, I've encouraged it, not discouraged 10 it, from this witness and others. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 13 Q: I'm not talking about the companies. I'm 14 going to concede that companies outside of this room, are in 15 the public domain. 16 And, in fact, most companies are out in public 17 and people are aware of their names and what they do, and 18 what they sell, and they may have advertising spots on TV and 19 things like that. Am I right about that? 20 A: Probably. 21 Q: I'm talking about your clients or the fact 22 that you have acted for certain clients, that's public 23 general knowledge? 24 A: No, that's not. That's knowledge I choose 25 to share with who I share it with. It's not something I'm

1 forced to share, thank you. 2 Q: You see, I'm going to suggest to you, that 3 that's dead wrong, for this reason. Yesterday, when I left, 4 I went back to the office and I had one of the lawyers, go on 5 the world wide web. 6 You know what the world wide web is, right? 7 A: Yes, I do. 8 Q: And it's something that is available to 9 the entire world, so that anyone in the entire world who can 10 get to a computer, can access various web sites, right? 11 A: I'm sure that's the case. 12 Q: So that anyone in the entire world could 13 find out whatever's on a website, right? 14 A: Madam Commissioner? 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think -- 16 THE WITNESS: May I just -- 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Let -- 18 THE WITNESS: -- ask -- 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: There's nothing wrong -- 20 THE WITNESS: -- a question? 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: There's nothing wrong 22 with these questions, at all. 23 THE WITNESS: No, I just want to ask a 24 question. I mean, in reference to this, I know what he's 25 asking me to do but my personal address is also on four-one-

1 one (411) on the website on the website. Does that mean he 2 has the right, then, to reveal it? 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: We're not there yet. 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Just -- 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 10 Q: Was -- was -- well, why don't you answer 11 my question? 12 A: I'm sorry. I don't recall your question. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Basically, if something 14 is on the web, people can read it. Something like that. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm sure that's the case. 16 MR. TODD WHITE: All right. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 19 Q: Yesterday we talked about computers and 20 you were happy to answer questions as to what products you've 21 or your company has not acted for, right? Do you recall 22 that? 23 A: No, not specifically. I didn't answer all 24 the companies we do not -- we do not act for. 25 Q: I didn't suggest that you did because I

1 didn't list every company -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- in the world. Do you understand my 4 question? 5 A: If you could be more specific. 6 Q: By -- well, when I said to you, for 7 example, that you've -- your company has never lobbied or had 8 a client that was in the computer business, your answer 9 was -- 10 A: It was -- 11 Q: -- that's correct. 12 A: Well, as I recall it was during that time 13 was I involved with a client in the computer business and I 14 answered no. 15 Q: Well, no. You see, that's not what your 16 evidence was. I asked you ever or not -- 17 A: Well -- 18 Q: -- you've ever acted for a computer 19 company and you said: 20 "No, I tried to --" 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Can you help -- 22 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Commissioner? 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Can you help me with 24 where that is? Just so I can just go through it on the 25 transcript because I am right there.

1 MR. TODD WHITE: I can't help you at right 2 this second, Commissioner, but I just want to continue some 3 questions about that area. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, I just want to make 5 -- the witness seems to not be agreeing that that is what he 6 said so, we have the transcript -- 7 MR. TODD WHITE: I'll rephrase the question -- 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. 9 MR. TODD WHITE: -- because I don't want to 10 spend the time flipping through hundreds -- 11 THE WITNESS: Well -- 12 MR. TODD WHITE: -- of pages of transcripts. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I can answer it. I 14 understand the question. I don't -- he doesn't have to ask 15 me again. 16 What you're getting at is, yes, on my website 17 there are companies that I've -- 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 20 Q: That's not what I'm getting at. I'm -- 21 A: Oh, no? 22 Q: -- asking a certain question. 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Just wait -- why don't -- 24 THE WITNESS: Okay. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- you wait, Mr.

1 Carnevale, until he asks his questions. 2 THE WITNESS: No problem. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I know you probably have 4 a sense of where you think he's going. You may or may not be 5 right but why don't we -- 6 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- just wait for the 8 question and then we'll see where we go. All right? 9 THE WITNESS: Sure. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 12 Q: I'm going to suggest that you suggested to 13 the Commissioner yesterday that your company had not acted 14 for a computer company in relation to any bids or any deals 15 with any government, municipal or otherwise, and your 16 evidence yesterday was that you attempted, on behalf of your 17 company, to get a computer company or computer leasing 18 company by the name of Compaq as a client? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that you tried -- attempted to secure 21 Compaq as a client of your -- of your firm but that you were 22 unsuccessful and you never did. 23 A: Well -- 24 Q: Right? 25 A: That's not entirely -- I mean I --

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: What -- 2 THE WITNESS: -- if I'm able to expand on 3 that. I did lead to that but I didn't -- that's not entirely 4 what I was suggesting. I did meet with them, we did discuss 5 doing some work together. They've asked me to do some 6 intelligence gathering in the meanwhile until we confirm 7 something. 8 In that period, I did, indeed, put them on my 9 website because it was an understanding we would work 10 something out but in the end, they chose to offer me a 11 commission deal and I said, you know what, I'm just not 12 interested in straight commission. Thank you very much. So 13 I'm just answering the status of what my relationship was 14 with Compaq. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 17 Q: Well, I'm going to suggest to you that you 18 never said that yesterday. 19 A: Well, you asked me if I worked for them. 20 In the end, I didn't confirm a final contract with them but I 21 did offer some intelligence gathering that I hoped would lead 22 to a contract and I was mistaken in the end -- 23 Q: Did you -- 24 A: -- but they did not give me a contract 25 that I liked.

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: So we'll go through every line of your 4 transcript, sir. 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: No, Mr. -- 6 MR. TODD WHITE: Let's talk about what you 7 said yesterday. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Rothstein? 9 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Commissioner, the point 10 is simple, if Counsel wishes to impeach this witness on 11 evidence he gave yesterday, he should direct the witness and 12 all of us to the page and the reference -- 13 MR. TODD WHITE: Well, I'm doing that. 14 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: And -- and, 15 Commissioner, it isn't necessary for Counsel to deride and 16 threaten the witness with comments like, we'll go through 17 every line of your question -- of your evidence. 18 That kind of intimidating characterization is 19 inappropriate in this Inquiry and indeed, in any Inquiry and 20 I think that Mr. White has to think carefully about the kind 21 of comebacks that he makes to this witness repeatedly. 22 His tone is angry and hostile. He chastises 23 and criticizes the witness for reluctance or willingness to 24 answer questions. 25 I've written down things that appear in his

1 questions frequently like: 2 "You were happy to answer." 3 Or: 4 "You were reluctant to answer." 5 Or you were this or you were that. That kind 6 of characterization of the witnesses evidence without 7 reference to clear impeachment material, in my respectful 8 submission, is not an assistance to the Inquiry, and if 9 frankly, causing the incredible delays that we're 10 experiencing in getting to anything that's truly relevant to 11 your Inquiry. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. White, do you wish to 13 respond to that? 14 MR. TODD WHITE: No. In my respectful 15 submission, I'm not doing anything improper and My Friend, 16 can attempt to characterize my questions any way she wishes, 17 there's nothing improper about my questions. 18 There's be no objections about the way I 19 phrase questions. I'm entitled to ask questions. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: It would be helpful to 21 me, just for purposes of my note taking, you may be here for 22 just a short period of time. I'm here for quite a long 23 period of time. 24 And if you are going to be referring to what 25 the witness said yesterday, it would be helpful to me, to

1 indicate where that is in the transcript. 2 Because I'm connected to the transcript here, 3 and then I can just do a quick cut and paste for my own 4 purposes, and it helps in the making of my own notes. 5 So, I would certainly appreciate it, if you 6 are able to do that. Okay. 7 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: And Commissioner, just 8 so Mr. White understands, I am objecting to the form of many 9 of his questions. 10 I've sat patiently, because I don't want to 11 interfere with cross-examination, but, in particular, I do 12 wish to register a strong objection to the hostile tone that 13 frequently is used in the course of the questioning of this 14 witness. 15 MR. TODD WHITE: That's an unfair 16 characterization and I resent it. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think sometimes what 18 happens when lawyers have a certain style and maybe it's a 19 style that is used elsewhere, there is -- I think I did refer 20 late yesterday afternoon, Mr. White, to the -- I can't 21 remember how I categorized it, but, to the stress level of 22 the -- or the -- I can't remember how I categorized it. 23 But, I did refer to the way in which the 24 questions were being asked. I have a responsibility, as a 25 Commissioner as a Judge, to ensure that there is not an abuse

1 of process, and that there is not an improper behaviour 2 towards witnesses. 3 So, I'm mindful of that and if there is any, 4 I'll let you know. 5 MR. TODD WHITE: I hope Your Honour is not 6 suggesting that I have at all in the past, been abusing the 7 process or been anything of the sort. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I have to say, Mr. White, 9 I'm not at all certain what the relevance is of the questions 10 that would assist me in my Terms of Reference. 11 And I've allowed quite a lot of leeway because 12 I think that that's appropriate in the cross-examination. 13 But, when I look at my terms of reference, and what it is 14 that I'm supposed to be doing, I'm very mindful, and I've 15 said it many, many times, I'm mindful that every day we're 16 here it costs the taxpayers of Ontario and people whoever is 17 paying for their own Counsel, a lot of money. 18 And I don't want to be part of a system that 19 unnecessarily increases the cost of something like a Public 20 Inquiry. 21 So, I'm trying to stick to my Terms of 22 Reference here. All right. 23 But, having said that I recognize that you are 24 a lawyer for Mr. Lyons, and you have a responsibility to do 25 what you need to do for Mr. Lyons.

1 And Mr. Carnevale is here. I do say, that I'm 2 not sure about the relevance of the questions. I've allowed 3 you to go on because I think it's proper cross-examination, 4 but, for what it's worth, I'm the one (1) that has to write 5 the report at the other end, I'm not sure, at this point, 6 what the relevance and helpfulness is going to be for me. 7 Okay? 8 MR. TODD WHITE: Thank you. And I'll explain 9 for the record then, if that's Your Honour's comment. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 11 MR. TODD WHITE: I think the relevance goes to 12 this witnesses credibility, goes to this witnesses 13 willingness to answer simple questions, truthfully, honestly 14 and straightforwardly. 15 And I resent any implication that there's 16 something improper in my question that has caused any delay 17 whatsoever and, in fact, my guess that since I'm only on my 18 first folder about this witness' background and his company 19 and if this witness had have answered simple questions 20 directly, that we would have been finished within the first 21 fifteen (15) or twenty (20) minutes of my cross-examination. 22 And it's my position that this witness has 23 obfuscated and has refused to answer relatively simple 24 questions and I don't understand why and so if it's not clear 25 to the -- to you -- to you, Your Honour, and to the other

1 people present, I feel I have an obligation to pursue it. 2 The examples that come to mind that are when 3 he talks about, you know the associate and I asked for his 4 name and he refused because it's confidential and it was 5 crystal clear that it was Dennis Chong, someone he's already 6 -- 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Daryl Chong. 8 THE WITNESS: That's incorrect. 9 MR. TODD WHITE: Whatever. 10 THE WITNESS: It's not what -- 11 MR. TODD WHITE: Mr. Chong and you know, that 12 took fifteen (15) minutes for that to happen. So, I resent 13 any implication that it's my cross-examination or my 14 questioning or my style that has delayed these proceedings. 15 I -- I -- I don't believe that it has. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Can you help me with 17 respect to the questions regarding his experience and what -- 18 what the usefulness and helpfulness to me as a Commissioner 19 who has to make recommendations? 20 MR. TODD WHITE: It will go to credibility for 21 one thing. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 23 MR. TODD WHITE: And secondly, this witness 24 has talked about what he has told his clients are successor 25 fees and has given evidence about success fees and his

1 experience with success fees and his experience in RFQ's. 2 He's been asked questions about that. 3 RFQ's usually have to do with -- in terms of 4 reference in this Inquiry, has to do with the sale or lease 5 of products to the City of Toronto and more specifically, in 6 this case, computer and related equipment and -- which is one 7 of the reasons Mr. Manes asked him whether or not he's ever 8 -- you know, what involvement he's had in computers and one 9 of the reasons I've asked if he's had any experience or ever 10 had a client in the computer business. 11 And that -- that's how it's relevant and now 12 we're finding out for the first time this morning after I 13 told him about the website that he does have experience with 14 computers -- 15 THE WITNESS: Commissioner? 16 MR. TODD WHITE: -- and that's going to be his 17 new evidence, I anticipate. 18 THE WITNESS: That's incorrect. 19 MR. TODD WHITE: So that's the relevance of 20 the question. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Carnevale? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes? 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I can see, I have 24 peripheral vision. I can see that you have some comments 25 that you want to make. You saw me yesterday, if you have any

1 comments, I'll give you the opportunity but in the way I run 2 this shop here, it's basically when a person is speaking, 3 they have a right to speak until they're finished. After 4 that I ask somebody else what they have to say. Okay? 5 I know you want to say something but he's not 6 finished yet. So just as a provide you the courtesy of 7 making him wait until you're finished, I want to ask you for 8 the courtesy to wait until he's finished. All right? He's 9 not finished. 10 MR. TODD WHITE: No, that's fine, Your Honour. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Are you finished now? 12 MR. TODD WHITE: Yes. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 14 MR. RONALD MANES: Commissioner? 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes? 16 MR. RONALD MANES: Just in regard to Mr. 17 White's last statement. I don't think Mr. White could ever 18 be accused of ever asking a simple, straightforward question. 19 I think his questions and the way he puts them are in 20 paragraphs. 21 And those paragraphs include commentaries and 22 editorialization and references to a witness' previous 23 testimony. They are very difficult for Counsel to follow, 24 let alone for the witness to follow. 25 So I think to some extent it's the manner in

1 which My Friend puts his questions. Whether or not the 2 witness is being examined for credibility, the foundation for 3 any question has to be relevance. The -- the witness 4 certainly has testified that he has some experience in 5 success fees. He has testified to what experience, limited, 6 that he had with computers. 7 He's given plenty of evidence in that regard. 8 That's one thing. It's quite another thing for Mr. White to 9 then delve into the particulars of that experience to test 10 his credibility. That's where the relevance gets so tenuous 11 and the witness, I say rightfully, is concerned that Mr. 12 White is after names, after companies and wants them on the 13 records. 14 The witness has said that he is reluctant to 15 do that. And my submission is, that at the point where the 16 relevance is so tenuous in respect to credibility or 17 otherwise, and in particular, the Terms of Reference, the 18 prejudicial effect on the witness and witnesses clients, far 19 outweighs any probative value, any helpfulness it may have to 20 the Commissioner. 21 So, while I have sat back to a certain extent, 22 giving My Friend leeway to pursue these various lines of 23 credibility, I say, that at this point, continuing to allow 24 him to go at this witness, time and time again, about his 25 clients and about his experience, as if it's a credibility

1 question really is not helpful any longer. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Carnevale, you wanted 3 to say something? 4 THE WITNESS: About ten (10) minutes ago, My 5 Friend, indicated that -- 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You mean Mr. White? 7 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm sorry, I forgot his 8 name. 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You don't have to call 10 him -- you can if you want, it's just the lawyers often call 11 each other My Friend. 12 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry, I thought we were all 13 being sarcastic. In regards to, Mr. White, he had said that 14 I said, I did not -- or I just now said I worked for them. I 15 did not. I did answer that question. I could expand on it, 16 I did not work for them. I was anticipating a contract. 17 I mean once again, used a phrase incorrectly. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think you told us that 19 you had done some work, this was with respect to Compaq, 20 right? Is that what we're talking about? 21 THE WITNESS: Well, in anticipation of signing 22 the contract, you go through various stages of, sort of, your 23 due diligence. In that phase, I thought we were very close 24 to a deal, at the time, we were doing -- 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Are we talking about

1 Compaq? 2 THE WITNESS: Compaq. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, no, I understand and 4 it was in the course of that, that you and Daryl Chong met 5 with Scott Marentette -- 6 THE WITNESS: And then following that -- 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- did other work on it, 8 eventually they wanted you to take commission, you didn't 9 want to take commission, and so you ended up not doing any 10 work for them? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: What I think, Mr. White, 13 is saying that when you were here yesterday, you testified 14 that you had not done any work for a computer company, and 15 then he looks at your website and the computer company is 16 listed as one (1) of your clients, I guess, I haven't seen 17 your website. 18 THE WITNESS: No, I understand that, and 19 that's why I was clarifying that -- 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes -- 21 THE WITNESS: -- the website I've done -- you 22 know, you don't update every day. I don't have the money to 23 update that every day. 24 The Inquiry does, but, that's something where 25 I have a number of clients I've done work for. And I was

1 fairly close to signing a deal, we didn't sign one (1). So I 2 just haven't had the time to remove it, I guess. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 4 MR. RONALD MANES: Commissioner, I'd like to 5 make this last point. I don't think it's appropriate for 6 Counsel and for Mr. White, to say to a witness, that you're 7 dishonest. 8 I think that in itself, is undignified. I 9 think it's editorializing. I think that it is a submission 10 that Counsel can make, but, I do not feel it is appropriate, 11 to tell a witness he is dishonest, then go on to editorialize 12 why he is dishonest. All packed in a question, at the end of 13 that paragraph. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, Mr. White, it's 15 10:30, let's see if we can get a question. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 20 Q: You were asked yesterday about products, 21 industries that you have worked for, who have been your 22 clients. And you were asked about whether or not, you've 23 worked or deal with -- have dealt with, computers. 24 And your answer I'm going to suggest, and this 25 is page 168, for example. You answer was:

1 "Not at the moment. 2 Q: Have you ever dealt with computer 3 leasing or something? 4 A: Well, other than we tried to get a 5 client, as I indicated earlier, in the 6 computer leasing area, and we didn't. We 7 didn't get that. So we don't do computer 8 leasing. 9 Q: Okay. You'd like to do computer 10 leasing, or computer sales and you tried to 11 get a client that you could work on behalf 12 of to do contracts with whomever, but, you 13 haven't? 14 A: Yes, that's right." 15 Do you recall being asked those questions and 16 giving those answers, just yesterday afternoon? 17 A: Those are correct. 18 MR. RONALD MANES: Commissioner? 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr. Manes? 20 MR. RONALD MANES: I'd like to echo what My 21 Friend, Ms. Rothstein, has submitted to you before. My -- 22 Mr. White is quite entitled to put a prior inconsistent 23 statement to a witness, read out that statement, ask the 24 witness if he agrees he said that, and point out the 25 inconsistency. In my submission, there is no inconsistency

1 whatsoever. 2 Simply reading the witness, his previous 3 answers and saying there's an inconsistency when no such 4 inconsistency exists is inappropriate and not helpful to you, 5 Commissioner. 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm not sure where the 7 inconsistency is, Mr. White. Can you help me? 8 MR. TODD WHITE: Well, I've just read out his 9 transcript. That's all I've done so far. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, but you're -- your 11 -- you prefaced it by saying you were asked yesterday about 12 products and industries, et cetera and then you -- 13 MR. TODD WHITE: Right. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- and then you read the 15 transcript. All right. 16 MR. TODD WHITE: Right. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. So what -- 18 what's your next question? 19 MR. TODD WHITE: Okay. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: What is your question, 21 then, from that? 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 24 Q: That's what you said yesterday under oath, 25 correct?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And when you were talking about trying to 3 get a client, as you indicated earlier, in the computer 4 leasing area and that you didn't. I take it that was about 5 Compaq? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay and so yesterday after I leave the 8 Inquiry, I search on your website and on your website, among 9 other things, is a list of clients that you claim in your 10 website that your firm has represented, right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And of the list, you include Compaq 13 Computer Company as -- as your clients, correct? 14 A: Well, as people I have or have -- have 15 done work for or are -- is doing work for but as I just 16 indicated, at the time I thought we were signing it when I 17 redid my website but as I indicated, we didn't in the end, 18 sign them. 19 Q: Sir, my question was that on your website 20 -- you have a section on your website that talks about your 21 experience and you list as one of your clients, Compaq 22 Computer. Am I correct or incorrect about that? 23 A: I do believe it is on the website, yes. 24 Q: And, in fact, you have never had Compaq 25 Computer as a client of -- of your company in any way,

1 correct? 2 A: Well, we did some due diligence to sign a 3 contract which in the end it wasn't agreeable to and I 4 decided not to sign it. 5 Q: My question was this: They have never 6 been a client of the City Hall Group Inc.? 7 A: No, we were close but you're right. 8 Q: Well, you know the expression close but no 9 cigar. You -- there's a difference between doing due 10 diligence -- for example, you may want an MFP contract so you 11 may have all the people you know do due diligence, find out 12 everything you can about MFP, go and speak to various people 13 at MFP saying I want to be a consultant or a lobbyist for 14 your firm. 15 And you can spend hundreds of hours and if 16 they say thanks but no thanks and you don't get hired by MFP, 17 I take it that -- just as an example, that they were never 18 your client? 19 A: That -- 20 Q: Right? 21 A: That's not the scenario I was referring 22 to, though. You've given a different scenario than what due 23 diligence means to me. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: What Mr. White is saying 25 is that -- as I understand it is that Compaq was not your

1 client in your way that one would normally understand client 2 to be. 3 THE WITNESS: Oh. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: It was someone you might 5 have been pursuing to be a client or working with to try to 6 obtain contract but was not a client? 7 THE WITNESS: Well, we were meeting with 8 staff. Certain staff were prepared to hire us, so we were 9 preparing for that and doing -- in essence, preparing some 10 info for that. It's -- at a different level they decided in 11 the end, you know what, we just don't have the money to do 12 this unless you do it on commission. 13 It's not like the due diligence he referred as 14 just in simply meeting with them. We actually met with the 15 staff and discussed it. Staff were asking us for information 16 and we were going through a process to confirm a type of 17 contract, so we were prepared to do this. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right. But, as I 19 understand what Mr. White is saying, is that all that's fine 20 and well -- 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah -- 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- but, in the final 23 analysis, there was no contract signed? 24 THE WITNESS: In the end, you're right. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And so in the final

1 analysis, they never became a contract? 2 THE WITNESS: No they didn't. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Some one you were working 4 with to try to have a contract, both of you, but, it didn't 5 work out. 6 THE WITNESS: That's right. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: For whatever reason, 8 right. And it is listed on the website, is it listed as a 9 client, or as someone that you have worked with or for or? 10 THE WITNESS: It's listed under -- I have a 11 list which I do not want to divulge here, a list of people 12 who've we've done work for and are doing work for. 13 I don't separate who we still work for. And I 14 haven't updated that list, in a long time, actually. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Are they called clients 16 or people that you're doing work for or -- 17 THE WITNESS: I don't recall the exact 18 wording, but, people or clients or associations whatever it 19 may be that we've done service or have been servicing. 20 MR. RONALD MANES: Does Mr. White have that 21 website hard copy with him or is he reading from something? 22 MR. TODD WHITE: Yes, yes. 23 MR. RONALD MANES: Maybe he could assist the 24 witness in whether it says clients or people I've done work 25 for, or otherwise?

1 MR. TODD WHITE: It's under experience. And 2 it says: 3 "City Hall Group and its network of 4 consultants have had the pleasure of 5 working with the following organizations." 6 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, to be fair to the 7 witness, that is different than saying that it says, clients. 8 MR. TODD WHITE: Well, let's just talk about 9 that. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 12 Q: Is your evidence today as I understand it, 13 that your listing of the word, Compaq, under your list of 14 experience, is there properly, with their permission, and 15 this is someone that you have had the pleasure of working 16 with? 17 Or is it that you anticipated that you might 18 get some work or a contract or some arrangement with them and 19 so you put it on your website and then forgot to take it off, 20 which one (1) is it? 21 A: That's two (2) very long ones -- we were 22 close to getting a contract, in the end we did not sign one 23 (1). So, I probably should remove them from my website, yes. 24 Q: So, just so we're clear. What you're 25 doing on your website, for the world to see, is at the very

1 least, suggesting that this was a client or is a client of 2 yours, or was a client of yours -- 3 A: That's not what I said. 4 Q: -- you had the pleasure of working with, 5 fair? 6 A: Once again, I think it was just read, it 7 doesn't say clients, so I don't know why you put in the word, 8 clients. 9 Q: Well, I'm asking you -- 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think it's what he's 11 suggesting -- 12 THE WITNESS: Yes -- 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- suggesting that 14 without you actually using the word, client, that this is 15 suggesting that it was or is a client of yours. That's what 16 he's saying. 17 He's not saying that you said it was a client, 18 he's saying, you're suggesting it was a client. 19 THE WITNESS: I think at the time, I hoped 20 they would be a client, but, I don't explicitly read there 21 that I called them a client. That's all I can say. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 24 Q: Just so we're clear and the record is 25 clear. After your under experience, you say and it says:

1 "City Hall Group had the pleasure of 2 working with the following organizations." 3 There's a list of a number of organizations, 4 correct? 5 A: Yes, there is. 6 Q: And I'm suggesting that the reason that 7 put it on the website like that, is for what we talked about 8 or started to talk about this morning. 9 So that anyone in the world, who got onto the 10 City Hall Group website, could look at this right? 11 A: That would be the case. 12 Q: And you'd want them to understand and it 13 was your intention, your purpose to suggest to the readers of 14 your website about your company, that these -- that this 15 list, are clients or former clients, that you have had the 16 pleasure of working with, right? 17 A: I don't believe I used the word clients, 18 as you just indicated as you read it. You used the word, 19 clients again, sorry. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: What Mr. White said, is 21 by having it placed on the website that way, is that you 22 wanted them to understand or to suggest to the readers, that 23 this was a list of clients or former clients, that you worked 24 with. 25 THE WITNESS: And that's why I just indicated

36
  1  that clients or former clients, isn't the phrasing on that
  2  web page that he just indicated.  So, I don't feel
  3  comfortable in saying yes to that.
  4  
  5  CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 
  6                 Q:  Well, why did you set out -- let me ask
  7  you this.  When you set up to design your website or any
  8  brochures or any advertising to get your name out there,
  9  could you -- was it your intention to mislead them?  Was it
 10  your intention to --
 11                 A:  No.
 12                 Q:  -- set out a list of companies that you
 13  wanted to work for?
 14                 A:  No.
 15                 Q:  And, in fact, let's get to it.  The
 16  purpose of this web page -- this particular portion of the
 17  web page is to -- it's an advertisement, right?  It's a
 18  promotion?  It's a marketing tool?
 19                 A:  To people I send to the website, yes.
 20                 Q:  Not to people you send.  It's not a
 21  private website.  It's not a -- it's not a website where you
 22  have to become a member and pay a fee or know a password,
 23  right?
 24                 A:  Right.
 25                 Q:  This is a website that anyone can gain

1 access to? 2 A: If you know my address. 3 Q: If you know your name, if you know the 4 name of your company, if you know your website address, if 5 you know your e-mail address, if you do a search on Carnevale 6 or City Hall Group, you'll find it in a second, right? 7 A: I'm sure it would pop up. That would mean 8 they would have known me or my company to do that search. 9 Q: Well, you see, I'm going to suggest that 10 if you type in consulting or Metro Toronto consulting or 11 municipal consulting or municipal lobbying, your group comes 12 up, as well. 13 A: That would be great but I don't believe I 14 paid for that. 15 Q: Well, I'm going to suggest you don't have 16 to pay for it. You know you don't have to pay for it. It's 17 the internet. A Google search engine or a Mamma search 18 engine will find key words in all the web sites and then if 19 you do a search for, you know, municipal consultant, you'll 20 get a number of hits and one of them will be yours. You know 21 that. 22 A: If that's the case. I don't know that. 23 Q: So let's stick to your definition, then 24 that anyone who's ever heard of you or knows of you or your 25 company, you -- if they're reading your website, let's stick

1 with those people, you certainly wouldn't list as you've 2 consulted and worked as a consultant and had the pleasure of 3 working with the following organizations people or companies 4 that you've never met, right? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: And, in fact, what I'm suggesting is that 7 -- well, let's use the language of the website. Forget about 8 clients. A client is -- in your business is an organization 9 or company that you work for or have worked for, right? 10 A: Sure. 11 Q: And that's what a client is and so some 12 web sites call it different things. I've had the pleasure 13 of, you know, providing services to whomever or working with 14 these organizations but what you want the world at large or 15 anyone who happens to go on to your website to understand is 16 that you have worked for this company or these companies and 17 that you're proud of your relationship with it? Fair? 18 A: I think you're stretching. I'm not proud 19 of all the relationships on that list, so. There are some 20 companies I've worked for that I wasn't proud in the end -- 21 that I wasn't happened with the way the relationship worked. 22 So I wouldn't characterize it at that. 23 Q: Well, I don't -- what, did you get fired 24 or -- 25 A: No.

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Well, you understand that a person who 4 reads this list and says, you know, Compaq. Frank Carnevale 5 worked for Compaq. I'm going to call Compaq and see what 6 information I can get. How he did, whether they liked him, 7 whether he did a good job. This is like a list of 8 references, isn't that fair to say? 9 A: Not necessarily. 10 Q: But it's certainly -- okay. So if it's 11 not a list of clients and it's not a list of references, 12 what's it a list of? 13 A: It's a list to give an example of the 14 industries I've had some involvement in -- the companies I 15 have some involvement in. The reason why I say that is you 16 said if they were to call them for references, I don't give 17 any names of who they can call. They wouldn't be able to and 18 most likely not divulge what I've done for them. That would 19 be a pretty bad reference, I think. 20 Q: Pardon? 21 A: You -- I think you heard. 22 Q: No, I don't understand. 23 A: They wouldn't necessarily divulge what 24 I've done for them because it's confidential. So you just 25 said they would be references. That's not the case.

1 Q: Well, it's confidential to them. It's not 2 confidential to you? 3 A: Yes -- 4 Q: Right? 5 A: It is. I can't divulge to you what I've 6 done for a number of my clients. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Now, where are we 8 going with this? 9 THE WITNESS: I'm not too sure. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm not asking you. 11 MR. TODD WHITE: I'm asking for this witness' 12 explanation as to why he put these names on his website. And 13 he says it's not a reference and he's now disagreeing that a 14 client or potential client, or anyone reading up this 15 website, could or would, call these people to get a reference 16 or to find out anything. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, Compaq is a big 18 place. Who are they going to call? Call up and say, hello, 19 I'm Todd White from so and so and I'd like to speak to anyone 20 who has had any dealing with City Hall Group? 21 MR. TODD WHITE: It's going to be done. But, 22 that's my point. And it's not as if -- my point is this, and 23 he knows it. 24 He can't prevent it -- let me give -- 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: No, no. Mr. White, this

1 is the kind of comment that's getting you into trouble with 2 Your Friends here. 3 When we say something like: 4 "...and he knows it," 5 He only -- unless you and he have a 6 relationship outside here that I'm not aware of, he only 7 knows what you're asking him on the witness stand. 8 A couple of times, he's tried to anticipate 9 where you were going and a couple of times, in my view, he's 10 been wrong in terms of where, you were in fact going. 11 So, when you say, he knows it, it's like a red 12 flag to the lawyers sitting here, they all object, because 13 the reality is, we don't know what he knows. That's what's 14 happening. Okay? 15 MR. TODD WHITE: Well, I'll re-ask the 16 question. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm just trying to get a 18 sense of -- I understand what you're saying. He has put on 19 his network on the website, saying that his Group has had the 20 pleasure of working with the following organizations and 21 lists some organizations. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 24 Q: And so, you've testified that the purpose 25 you put it on there, I don't understand you.

1 You've testified that it's not to suggest to 2 any reader that these are clients or former clients that 3 you've actually worked with, that's not what you're doing, 4 right? 5 A: No, once again, that's wrong. 6 Q: Right, you're not suggesting that? 7 A: No, no I can't -- you use so many words 8 and so many ideas, I'm having trouble following. 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: He's saying you're not 10 suggesting that they're clients or former clients, and you 11 said that he's wrong. 12 THE WITNESS: No, no, I am suggesting that 13 they're clients or former clients, and that's why I've 14 indicated, in that situation, that's one (1) where I guess it 15 was premature in our discussions to assume they would have 16 been a client. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 19 Q: But, I've asked you that question before, 20 and you adopted the words of Mr. Manes, that no, I never used 21 the word, client there -- 22 A: No -- 23 Q: -- I never used the word, client, there? 24 A: In the website you asked, and on the 25 website --

1 Q: Right -- 2 A: -- it doesn't indicate the word, client. 3 Q: I understand that. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: But, my point is this. And let me talk 6 about it in general terms. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: That it was your intention and the purpose 9 that you listed these companies names, your purpose, so that 10 the readers would understand or believe, that these -- this 11 group of people, are clients of yours or former clients of 12 yours, that you've had the pleasure of working with, correct 13 or incorrect? 14 A: That would be correct. 15 Q: And so my point is this. Compaq has never 16 been a client of yours, only a potential client from your -- 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: -- that's what I understood your evidence 19 to be yesterday. 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: So, my point is this. Compaq, the word, 22 Compaq in that list, if you're being honest, on your website, 23 should not have been included ever, right? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: And again, if you had these discussions

1 with Compaq back in 2000, which is you know a year after you 2 started up your business, for the very first time, as you 3 know, City Hall Group of one (1), you should never have put 4 it on in 2000, right? 5 A: I don't recall the timing I put it on. We 6 were discussing, after that lunch with Scott Marentette, we 7 were in discussions with Compaq for a number of months. I 8 don't know the exact timing when I changed the website and 9 when I included, Compaq, on that list. 10 But, it was obviously prior to -- in the end 11 myself deciding not to accept the contract. 12 Q: Yourself deciding? 13 A: As President of the Company. 14 Q: I see. So, it should never have been put 15 on and it should have been taken off, right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And for a number of months after 2000, I 18 take it takes it to 2001, right? 19 A: I would think yes, December 6th of 2000, 20 so it would have been 2001. 21 Q: So, you've had it on throughout all of 22 2001, despite the fact, or some portion of 2001, despite the 23 fact that you've never actually worked for them or had them 24 as a client and you continued that into 2002, 2003. Right? 25 A: I haven't made any adjustments -- I

1 haven't looked at that list to determine what new companies I 2 should put on. There are companies I have as clients I have 3 chosen not to put on yet. We haven't had time. 4 Q: You haven't had time? If I were to 5 contact Spunmedia, would they tell me the last time they ever 6 updated anything in your website was back in 2001? Is that 7 what they'd say? 8 A: I don't believe what they would say. I 9 don't understand when they would answer that or I've made 10 changes or not to that list, as I've just indicated. 11 Q: So, my point is this and you've -- I think 12 you've now just confessed to it that you could have made -- 13 you could have removed that word anytime in the last couple 14 of years? 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I guess when you use the 16 word confess, Mr. White, you get the reaction that you got 17 throughout the room. So -- 18 MR. TODD WHITE: Well, the witness has now 19 suggested to you, Commissioner, that he hasn't had time to 20 update his website and it hasn't been updated for some period 21 of time. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, I've heard all his 23 answers and I've taken them down. All I'm saying is when you 24 -- when you throw out a word like confessed, you see the 25 reaction it had by everybody around the room and it's your

1 choice to use the words that you choose but that's -- 2 MR. TODD WHITE: So, let me rephrase. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- and then that's what 4 gets you into trouble. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 7 Q: I'm going to suggest that you've -- again, 8 I -- I didn't even raise it yet. I just mentioned the word 9 website today and you, in anticipation of what I may get to, 10 you knew before me even saying anything today that Compaq was 11 still on your website, didn't you? 12 A: If you would have asked me that yesterday, 13 I might have answered that too but you didn't ask. 14 Q: So it's something that you've always known 15 that Compaq is on your website and it shouldn't be, right? 16 A: I haven't had time to remove it. I 17 haven't reviewed the list lately to even add new clients I've 18 had for over a year. So it hasn't been one of my priorities. 19 Q: Well, -- well I'm going to suggest that 20 you've always known that Compaq was on your list and it 21 shouldn't have been, right? 22 A: It's not something I've thought about 23 every day. So I don't -- I don't know what you mean by 24 you've always known. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think what he's saying,

1 Mr. Carnevale, and I think you've already agreed with it -- 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- in any event, that the 4 people on the list are clients or former clients. Compaq was 5 not a client. Although you had hoped that they would be, it 6 didn't work out. They should not have been on the list. I 7 think -- 8 THE WITNESS: That's right. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 11 Q: Well, let's skip back to one of the things 12 that you started with this morning and one of the 13 explanations that you're now offering to the Commissioner as 14 to, you know, companies you've worked for or anything like 15 that about getting permission. 16 Got permission -- whether or not you've had 17 permission to use a client's name at this Inquiry and you've 18 testified that you've actually taken steps to do that. Did 19 you take steps to get permission from your clients to use 20 their names on your website? 21 A: With the staff I was dealing with or am 22 dealing with, yes. 23 Q: Who at Compaq did you get permission from 24 to use their company name on your website? 25 A: I was speaking to a few individual sales

1 team people including Scott Marentette and that was the 2 discussion that, can I freely use the fact that we'll be 3 doing work with you and he indicated, sure, you know, this 4 thing should be done shortly. Then in the end I decided I 5 don't want to sign this. This isn't what I wanted for the 6 company and we just walked away. 7 Q: Okay and so as you're walking away and 8 again, because you don't have an office, you have your cell 9 phone which is always with you, right? Right? 10 A: That may be. 11 Q: As you're walking away from that deal, I 12 take it that it would have taken you a minute or two (2) to 13 call one of your associates, to call your partner or to call 14 Spunmedia and said, next time you update our website, take 15 off the word Compaq from our list of experience. Could have 16 -- it would have taken you two (2) minutes, right? Maximum. 17 A: I don't know. 18 Q: Well, that's fair, though, isn't it? 19 A: When I was walking away from the meeting? 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: I don't think it was on the top of my 22 mind. 23 Q: No, that -- that's fine but I'm just as -- 24 whether or not you could have done that. 25 A: Probably.

1 Q: And the day afterward, the weekend 2 afterward, you could have left someone a message, next time 3 you're on the website -- next time anyone's going to make 4 any changes to the website, take off Compaq? 5 A: Possibly. 6 Q: Because before I even mentioned it -- 7 before I even said anything about Compaq being on a website, 8 you knew yesterday, for example and you know today that 9 Compaq's on your list, right? 10 A: I think this morning I realized that, you 11 know what, yeah, that might be a question and as you were -- 12 were alluding to it, I thought I might as well clarify it 13 now, before you suggest I've been dishonest, as you have. 14 Q: No, you see, you just testified a few 15 minutes ago, that you could have told me this yesterday. 16 A: No, you could have asked me this 17 yesterday. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: I would have answered that, why it was on 20 the website. 21 MR. RONALD MANES: No, right is the problem. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry? 23 MR. RONALD MANES: Right is the problem. The 24 witness said in his previous testimony, he wasn't asked the 25 question. And Mr. White, has now rephrased it, and the

1 witness has now corrected it, yet again, saying you didn't 2 ask me the question yesterday. 3 Only an observation, sorry, Commissioner. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 6 Q: You knew yesterday, when we were talking 7 and first of all when Commission Counsel was talking about 8 Compaq, when I was talking about Compaq, when you were 9 testifying about your relationship with Compaq and whether or 10 not, they ever became a client, or whether you not, you did 11 any computer work at all -- 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: -- you knew at that time, that Compaq was 14 on your list of clients on your website? 15 A: I didn't connect -- if the question was 16 asked on my website, I would have thought, oh, that's right, 17 I think it's on the list. 18 So, it wasn't asked and I wasn't thinking that 19 as a question proposed to me yesterday. This -- 20 Q: I -- 21 A: -- morning when you mentioned the website, 22 it occurred to me that, oh, that's probably the case, for 23 that. 24 Q: I'm not suggesting that you had it in your 25 mind, but, if you had have been asked, whether Compaq is on

1 any website, your immediate answer in a split second, would 2 have been, yes, because it was something that you hadn't 3 forgotten, right? 4 A: You probably would have reminded me, yes. 5 Q: Right. And so, in the last couple of 6 years, I'm going to suggest that you've had thousands, if not 7 millions of opportunities to update your website and simply 8 remove that one (1) name? 9 A: Probably. 10 Q: And I'm going to suggest that you 11 intentionally haven't? 12 A: No. 13 Q: But, you've made other changes to your 14 website, changes that you wanted to make? 15 A: The only changes I've made, to my website, 16 if I made any, which I don't recall if I have, would have 17 been towards adding people, bios on my website, things that 18 were relevant to my meetings with people. 19 Q: No, I thought you testified just a little 20 while ago, that you've updated your list and it has some new 21 clients on it, maybe not all new clients -- 22 A: No, I actually testified I did not update 23 my list and that's very dishonest. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: He said the opposite. He 25 said, he's had clients for the last year that he has not put

1 on the website. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. TODD WHITE: 4 Q: Well, have you had clients for the last 5 year that are on your website? 6 A: I don't believe that's the case. I don't 7 know. 8 Q: Okay, so you haven't updated your client 9 list on your website, for a year? 10 A: I don't know how long. I really don't 11 know the last time I updated it. 12 Q: So, give us your best education guess, as 13 to when the last time you updated your client list on your 14 website -- 15 A: I don't know -- 16 Q: -- or caused it to be done? 17 A: -- I don't know. 18 Q: Could it have been a month ago, a couple 19 of months ago? 20 A: I don't believe so. 21 Q: But, it's possible? 22 A: Everything is possible, I just don't 23 recall it. I have clients now for the past two (2) months 24 that aren't up there, so -- 25 Q: Her Honour, asked you yesterday a number

1 of times, and asked you to think about the work that you've 2 done in the past, and to think about the products that you've 3 represented or the companies that you've represented that 4 sell or lease or do something with various products. 5 And we'll talk about services in a second. So 6 let's just stick to products. And we went through a number 7 of things as to, whether or not, you acted on companies that 8 provided certain products. 9 And we went through a list of things like 10 computers and the answer was, no. Leasing, the answer was, 11 no. Am I right about that? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: Paper, the answer was, no. Pens, no. 14 A: Well, you asked about, pens. Pens, paper, 15 there's a company I do work for that could be those products, 16 but, I don't recall ever selling those products via that 17 company, to promote those products, it's been other products 18 similar to that. 19 Q: What do you mean other products similar to 20 that? 21 A: Well, I don't want to get into it, because 22 that would divulge who the client is and what specifically I 23 do for them. 24 Q: Well, that's one (1) of the concerns I 25 have about your evidence. Because one (1) of the things that

1 we talked about yesterday, as an example, because throughout 2 this Inquiry, we've been talking about computers and people 3 didn't like the example I was using for computers, so I used, 4 telephones. 5 So I asked you about telephones. And again, 6 you didn't answer, you didn't comment, you didn't want to 7 comment, you had confidentiality issues, you didn't want to 8 disclose the name of your client or the services that you 9 did; right? 10 A: I believe Madam Commissioner told me to 11 discuss it today. 12 Q: Right. But on your website you have Bell 13 Canada listed, as one (1) -- 14 A: I'm sorry -- 15 Q: -- of your clients on your website, it's a 16 phone company isn't it? 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. White, I'm just 18 wondering where we're going to go with this? I'm just 19 asking? 20 MR. TODD WHITE: I'm cross-examining him on 21 whether or not he's ever had a client -- 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I know, it's now eleven 23 o'clock, we haven't even got to the part that is presumably 24 the part that directly engages Mr. Lyons' interests, and I'm 25 just wondering, are we going to go through this with every

1 single one (1) of Mr. Carnevale's clients, or people who are 2 on the website, I'm just asking you? 3 MR. TODD WHITE: Well, I don't anticipate 4 doing that. But it was crystal clear that the word phones 5 came up a number of times yesterday, this witness has refused 6 to answer that, or refused to confirm that he's operated or 7 worked for any phone company, even though there's lots of 8 them. 9 And -- and in the public 10 www.cityhallgroup.com, Bell Canada is proudly listed as a 11 client. So, it's not a secret -- 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: That doesn't mean -- 13 MR. TODD WHITE: -- it's not confidential, 14 it's not private -- 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- well, Mr. White, but 16 just because they've worked for Bell -- you can ask them if 17 Bell Canada is their client, it doesn't mean he did any work 18 on phones. I mean, Bell Canada has gone to great effort to 19 show that it does more than just phones. 20 MR. TODD WHITE: Well -- 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: That doesn't mean that he 22 did work on phones, it may be that he did, I don't know, I 23 just don't know where we're going with this. 24 MR. TODD WHITE: Your Honour, to -- to be fair 25 to me, I -- I was pulling my hair out yesterday, as were a

56
  1  number of people, simply to get the name of one (1) product
  2  that he's represented a company for.
  3                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:  And I asked him to go --
  4  to go last night, and in fact, as I thought, we had agreed
  5  that -- what I asked him to do was to go and look at what
  6  sort of experience he has had, what sort of experience that
  7  he has had in his company, dealing with whatever products or
  8  services, I didn't ask him to look at the names of the
  9  organizations, in fact, I thought that we were specifically
 10  not getting into the names of the organizations.  I thought
 11  you were trying to find out what his level of experience was. 
 12  So, to that extent, I asked him to find that out.  
 13                 But if I -- if the transcript shows that I
 14  said something else, then let me know.
 15                 MR. TODD WHITE:  No, but -- but because, and
 16  here's the because -- because the witness didn't want to
 17  divulge any information that would disclose the name of
 18  clients, for confidentiality reasons, for privacy reasons,
 19  and I found out last night -- 
 20                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:  Yes.
 21                 MR. TODD WHITE:  -- that he has clients that
 22  are on a worldwide web, that are not only public knowledge,
 23  it's an advertising vehicle.
 24                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:  I took Mr. Carnevale to
 25  be saying something perhaps just subtly different from what

1 you're saying. They're on the web, they're on his website, 2 they're public. And he, however, companies, individuals, do 3 not necessarily want to be involved in an Inquiry, and they 4 don't necessarily want their names coming out in an Inquiry 5 that has nothing to do with them. 6 Individuals don't like it, companies don't 7 like it, most of the people that I have sitting here before 8 me are not very happy to be here. 9 And in the last week we've had two (2) 10 individuals who didn't even want to say where they worked, 11 and that their companies had asked them not to say where they 12 worked. 13 So, I take it from what he's saying today and 14 what he said yesterday, was that he doesn't want to have to 15 divulge that in the course of this Inquiry. Anybody can go 16 to the website and find out if they're interested, but in 17 terms of it having been published through the Inquiry, that's 18 what he's hoping that he doesn't have to go through. 19 Have I got that wrong? 20 THE WITNESS: No, that is correct. I do have 21 a list, as you've asked yesterday, of what industries, and 22 tried to narrow it down, and not just specific to service. 23 But I've narrowed it down for you, but now it seems he wants 24 to discuss the companies, and I'm still not prepared to 25 discuss the companies.

1 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, you see, my 2 difficulty is that my sense of where Mr. White is going is 3 that it's not to examine the witness about his experience, 4 but rather as a matter of credibility, examine the witness 5 about whether or not he has actually sold products for the 6 particular companies that he's listed on his website. 7 So, that Bell Canada, for example, is listed 8 on his website, did he actually sell telephones for Bell 9 Canada, as opposed to what he said yesterday in terms of -- 10 of telephone sales. 11 And at this rate we could be going through 12 every single client, and having him tested, having them 13 exposed in public, which is what Mr. Carnevale didn't want, 14 and all as a matter of credibility as to what products, if 15 any, he, quote, "sold for them," although he's already 16 testified that he doesn't sell products for any company, he 17 sells the company, and certain products and services they 18 might be involved in. 19 So, I submit that we are going nowhere down a 20 credibility path, that equally leads nowhere. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. White, just in terms 22 of yesterday, I had asked the witness, thinking that it would 23 shorten things for you and him, given that he hadn't come 24 here yesterday prepared or understanding that he was going to 25 be talking about his firm. So, I ask him, you'll recall, if

1 he would make a list. 2 And I understand that he has come with that 3 list, and the list was designed to flesh out what his 4 experience has been and I did it because I thought that that 5 was what you wanted. 6 And Mr. Carnevale is here now with that list. 7 MR. TODD WHITE: Well, with the greatest of 8 respect, Your Honour, that's not quite the way it happened. 9 We -- we gave -- I asked him some pretty simple questions, as 10 to what type of work he did, and the example I gave and the 11 example that you forwarded on to him. I'm a criminal lawyer. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, I remember. 13 MR. TODD WHITE: Murder, sexual assault, 14 whatever, a list of -- 15 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, I'm sorry -- 16 MR. TODD WHITE: -- products that he's sold, 17 and just so we're clear, you know where I'm going from, and 18 Mr. Manes has said that numerous times. But just so you 19 understand where I'm coming from. 20 At page 4 of the transcript, which is the 21 little page 8, Mr. Manes was asking -- 22 MR. RONALD MANES: I'm sorry, what page? 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Page 8. 24 MR. TODD WHITE: Page 8. Mr. Manes was -- one 25 (1) of the very first questions he asked him, what a lobbyist

1 does. And he said, what we do as Municipal consultants, a 2 combination of -- 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Before that he said it 4 was pretty loose, a term that was pretty loose. 5 MR. TODD WHITE: Right. 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, okay. 7 MR. TODD WHITE: Could range from that, could 8 range to selling products, or services on behalf of our 9 clients, assisting them with various contracts in cities, 10 that's what he -- what he says. 11 Now, My Friend, Mr. Manes, is saying, he 12 didn't say that he sells products, he sells companies who 13 sell products. And it's pretty clear to me, and again, 14 correct me, Your Honour, if I'm wrong and call me stupid if - 15 - and I'm prepared to accept it. 16 But I think the evidence that I have heard 17 during this Inquiry is that -- and he's testified about it 18 yesterday, that products are sold to the City of Toronto, as 19 an example, or a Municipality, by a company. And companies 20 employ lobbyists or consultants to assist in the sale of 21 those products. 22 And so what I've asked him for, what I thought 23 Your Honour asked him for yesterday, was a list of products 24 that he's sold. So, that -- and his answer was I think that 25 if I give a list of products, I may divulge confidential

1 information about who my clients are and what services I 2 perform for them. 3 And so Your Honour gave him a number of 4 opportunities, adjourned my questioning to give him an 5 opportunity to think about it over night and to get a list of 6 these things, and as well, Your Honour also talked about the 7 services, because they were two (2) separate things, and his 8 answer in examination-in-chief was exactly the same. 9 And so, as I -- as I -- again, and I'm not 10 being facetious when I say this, I expected that those 11 questions would last about one (1), maybe two (2) minutes. 12 If you're not comfortable with saying the 13 client's names, because they're confidential, they're not in 14 the public domain, then give me a list of products. 15 Computers, widgets, pencils, machinery, typewriters, 16 whatever, cell phones, cars, what are the services? Leasing, 17 accounting -- 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Whatever. 19 MR. TODD WHITE: Whatever. And that's -- I've 20 asked him and you recall last night before we ended, I asked 21 him if he could give us one (1) product name, not name, one 22 (1) product. A phone, a paper, something and he has refused 23 to do so. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, I asked Mr. 25 Carnevale, if he would put together a list. He has a list

1 here. I am interested in hearing what the list is. 2 So, Mr. Carnevale, can you tell me what the 3 list is that you've put together? 4 THE WITNESS: Well, based on the question of 5 experience, I put together a list of a few points. For 6 example, I've worked for and am working for a few large 7 companies, energy distribution networks. 8 And what we do for them, I can't obviously get 9 specifics, but, involves municipalities and their interests 10 in Boards and Commissions. 11 Another company is a large company selling 12 components for automated transportation solutions. And 13 specifically we promote the company and their solutions and 14 their specific -- their specific benefits they provide to 15 various governments across Canada. 16 Now, in regards to experience, I don't know if 17 you need more than that. But, at this time, I think that's 18 -- I think that's enough. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes? 23 MR. RONALD MANES: I do have a transcript 24 reference, Commissioner, page 189, starting at line 24. And 25 it reads as follows:

1 "MR. TODD WHITE: Perhaps he can give us 2 even one (1), just one (1) product that he 3 lobbied on behalf of a client and the 4 client has actually sold to the government. 5 MR. RONALD MANES: He doesn't lobby 6 products, that's the problem. The witness 7 has testified, I don't know again, how many 8 times, that he lobbies on behalf of 9 companies that in turn sell products. So, 10 he's not a front line salesman. He doesn't 11 sell products. 12 MR. TODD WHITE: I get that sir, we all get 13 that." 14 And that, now, Mr. White, is going back to the 15 examination In-Chief, and a general question, on what a 16 lobbyist does and forgets, that he did get the concept of the 17 difference between selling a product and selling a company 18 that sells products. 19 So, he got it by the end of yesterday, that we 20 started right back into it today. 21 The other thing, I'd like to say, 22 Commissioner, in the strongest term, My Friend has emphasized 23 that he is a criminal lawyer, that he represents clients 24 charged with murder and sexual assault. This is not a 25 criminal proceeding.

1 There is no one here charged with murder or 2 sexual assault or any criminal offence. We do not make a 3 findings in a criminal context or a civil context. The 4 witness is not accused and My Friend is not a prosecutor. 5 MR. TODD WHITE: Well, with the greatest of 6 respect, Your Honour, I'll give a different example. Ron 7 Manes is a civil litigator and may deal with family law 8 issues or whatever. 9 It was no -- 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think in fairness to 11 you, Mr. White, you did say you did more than that yesterday, 12 in talking about -- 13 MR. TODD WHITE: Administrative law in front 14 of Boards and Commissions and Security Commissions. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- exactly. So, we have 16 now, what Mr. Carnevale gave us in terms of some experience 17 that he has. 18 Is that sufficient for you, Mr. White, or are 19 you wanting to go further than that? 20 MR. TODD WHITE: I think I have to go further 21 than that. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, let's go. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 MR. TODD WHITE: My first question is, hydro 2 or energy. Why couldn't you have said that yesterday? Why 3 couldn't you have said that yesterday? 4 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Madam Chair -- 5 Commissioner, I don't think it is appropriate to test this 6 witnesses credibility by asking questions that are only about 7 why the witness was prepared or not prepared to answer. 8 This is all -- the whole line of questioning 9 is only relevant to credibility. I can't imagine how given 10 that the evidence that this witness has given, that is 11 directly relevant to terms of reference is hearsay, anyway. 12 Why such a wide scope should be given to credibility cross 13 examination. 14 And in my view, it's argumentative and 15 improper to cross examine the witness on his willingness or 16 unwillingness or purported willingness or unwillingness to 17 answer questions, particularly in the face of your direction, 18 Commissioner, that all witnesses who come here from private 19 industry, have expressed reluctance about revealing what they 20 view to be confidential information. 21 So, in my respectful submission, if we 22 continue to go down the road, where the focus of the cross- 23 examination is on why the witness appeared reluctant to 24 answer a question or not, we will be going down a road of 25 such tenuous relevance, to this Inquiry, as to really create

1 some serious concerns about the time it will take, and the 2 value it will yield. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. White, I want to give 4 you an opportunity to respond to that, and I have mentioned 5 today that I am concerned about what the relevance is and how 6 it will assist me in what I have to do in the final analysis 7 in making recommendations for the Inquiry. 8 MR. TODD WHITE: Perhaps I'll ask the witness 9 and his colleagues to be excluded and I'll answer that 10 question, Your Honour. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Carnevale, this has 12 happened on a number of occasions where a witness has left 13 the Hearing Room for a few minutes. So, would you mind doing 14 that, it's just a way -- it's not uncommon, it happens in 15 Court all the time, and it has happened here a few times. 16 And if there are any friends of yours here, right now who -- 17 well why would I direct a member of the public to leave, 18 actually, Mr. -- 19 MR. TODD WHITE: Just so there's no temptation 20 for whatever's said in this to be said to anyone or said to 21 the witness. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, here, I'll tell you 23 what. Mr. Carnevale, I'm going to ask you to leave. If 24 there is anyone here who is directly related or connected in 25 any way to Mr. Carnevale or is here because they want to

1 watch the Proceedings, they do not have to leave if they do 2 not want to. 3 However, it will put -- it could put Mr. 4 Carnevale in a difficult situation if it looks like he was 5 talking to them afterwards. All right. 6 So, I'm asking you to leave, Mr. Carnevale. I 7 suggest that those who are with you, might want to leave, 8 someone has already left, so I think that that's probably 9 already what happened, and we'll call you right back. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, can I just ask. I'm 11 not too sure, if I'm leaving -- 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You're not going very 13 far. 14 THE WITNESS: -- then in regards to my 15 rights -- 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- you're not going very 17 far. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: This happens all the 20 time, don't worry about it. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 23 THE WITNESS: Good. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: We wouldn't kick you out 25 for a second if this wasn't something that -- and it has

1 happened in this Inquiry on a number of occasions already, 2 all right? 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay, thank you. 5 6 (WITNESS RETIRES) 7 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr. White. 9 MR. TODD WHITE: Thank you, Your Honour. As 10 Your Honour well knows, the -- the reputation of Mr. Lyons is 11 at stake in -- in these Proceedings and -- and during the 12 course of these Proceedings. 13 I have a theory of this case, and I have a 14 theory with respect to this witness and this witness' 15 credibility, in my respectful submission, is the most 16 important thing for Your Honour to consider, if Your Honour 17 ever decides to get into this area, given that the evidence 18 that we've heard so far. 19 And I'm entitled, and I think I'm obligated on 20 behalf of Mr. Lyons, to show this witness to this Commission, 21 and in order to protect Mr. Lyons' reputation. And testimony 22 has been given by this witness, that as Your Honour can sure 23 well see from the examination-in-chief and cross-examination 24 by Mr. Manes, is contradictive, and in quite stark contrast 25 in some respects to the evidence of other witnesses who have

1 testified in these Proceedings. 2 And so credibility is everything, when it 3 comes to this witness. And I'm respectfully -- I submit, I'm 4 entitled to cross-examine on any area when it comes to 5 credibility. And I'm not cross-examining on areas that are 6 you know, outside of the realm of cross-examination. 7 In fact, no one could dare suggest that the 8 cross-examination to date, is cross-examination that deals 9 with any issue that's outside the four (4) corners of this 10 Inquiry. 11 I'm not cross -examining him on his personal 12 life. I'm not cross-examining him on his, you know, criminal 13 record or I'm not cross examining him on anything that the 14 collateral fact rule, for example, would prohibit me from 15 calling evidence on. 16 I'm cross-examining him only on the evidence 17 that he's given so far. And in my respectful view, I mean it 18 may not be clear to Your Honour, and if it's not, I think 19 that is what makes it even more critical. 20 That this witness has presented himself as an 21 experienced President of City Hall Group Incorporated with 22 lots of experience and in my respectful -- and again, has 23 given views and given evidence in pretty strong language, in 24 some respects, pretty clear language, in some respects, that 25 creates a picture of him, during his examination In-Chief, of

1 being a decent, hard working, powerful, important and 2 experienced man, who knows this, knows that, has an opinion 3 about this, an opinion about that and has clear recollections 4 about this, and clear recollections about that. 5 Absolutely no animus towards Jeffrey Lyons. 6 Absolutely no motive against Jeffrey Lyons. Absolutely no 7 involvement in causing this press story to break. Absolutely 8 no pressure. Absolutely no requests. Only requests he made 9 was that -- not even a request, just a question, are you 10 going, Mr. Simone to the Inquiry? 11 No. And that's it. That's all he's done. 12 His credibility is everything. And as I said, and again I 13 may -- I'm as frustrated as anyone else here. 14 Because I would have thought these questions 15 would have been pretty simple. But, I want to be able to 16 demonstrate for Your Honour, that an honest and again, I'm 17 not making submissions at the end of the day, but, as Your 18 Honour, well knows, a witness who is honest and a witness who 19 is accurate, will answer questions freely, will answer 20 questions directly and it goes to their credibility, for the 21 world to see. 22 And so, I've been mindful, all day yesterday, 23 at the insistence of Mr. Manes, only after the insistence of 24 this witness. He wants to protect the confidentiality, 25 privacy of clients.

1 He doesn't want clients names to be known. 2 It's private, it's secret, it may reveal what I'm doing for 3 them, what I did for them, and certainly not one (1) company. 4 And, Your Honour, will recall, that time and 5 time and time again, Your Honour asked me, well Mr. White, 6 are you asking for the name of his clients? 7 And my answer has always been, absolutely not. 8 Because the witness has made it crystal clear and Mr. Manes, 9 has made it crystal clear, time and time again, the witness 10 has concerns about disclosing the names of his client. 11 And I can tell you, I don't believe his 12 explanation today, that doesn't want it coming up in the 13 Inquiry. The Inquiry is a public forum. And Your Honour has 14 said time and time again, there is nothing we can do to 15 control it. 16 The transcripts are on the internet. They're 17 on the website. Well, his information that he supposedly 18 didn't want to talk about, is on the website. 19 Anyone in the world, back to my nine (9) year 20 old niece, if they so wanted to, could click on Inquiry.ca, 21 find out this guys name, see that he doesn't want to tell -- 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I don't want to hear you 23 too much -- I know how to work the net. 24 MR. TODD WHITE: But, I mean so, the point is 25 this. I'm entitled to cross examine him on that. And again

1 I may not be as experienced as, Your Honour, but I've never 2 experienced where a witness has to be admonished so many 3 times, to simply answer a question. 4 Leave relevance to me, and if you have any 5 concerns and Your Honour, honestly believes, like we all did, 6 that his genuine concern was that his clients names were 7 confidential. 8 And so, my surprise when I have a list of 9 probably about thirty (30) clients on a web page, that can't 10 be the answer. 11 And so when he gives, you know, energy as an 12 example, I mean it's crystal clear, I'm he's got Enbridge, 13 he's got Hydro One, he's got a number of other things -- 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Because those are all -- 15 MR. TODD WHITE: But -- 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: But I -- I -- 17 MR. TODD WHITE: It's not secret. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I know it's not secret. 19 MR. TODD WHITE: He claimed that it was. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. White, here -- here's 21 where -- I think you've made some very, very good points here 22 in terms of Mr. Lyons' interests and that you've here to 23 protect his reputation as it is your responsibility to do. 24 And we have evidence from Mr. Carnevale that, 25 in terms of testing his credibility, there is ample, ample

73
  1  opportunity to test his credibility on the discussion he says
  2  he had with Scott Marentette, with Rob Simone, with the
  3  police, any inconsistencies in what he said to the police and
  4  various other things here that go directly to the issue that
  5  I'm going to have to decide with respect to -- to Mr.
  6  Carnevale and this whole issue, which is a separate issue
  7  that has somehow come up in the Inquiry and I've watched you
  8  for a number of days, now.  
  9                 I can see you're a very experienced Counsel
 10  and you can certainly make points with clients -- or with
 11  witnesses.  I have no doubt that when you start talking about
 12  what happened here, that we will then be dealing with those
 13  particular issues and that that's where I will have the
 14  greatest opportunity to see and test his credibility because
 15  whether he wants to talk about his private business or the
 16  companies he's worked for.  
 17                 I have to tell you Mr. White, it's not
 18  uncommon for me to see people, whether here or in a trial,
 19  who are quite prepared to come and talk about other things
 20  but their private business.  So it doesn't surprise me that
 21  he doesn't want to talk about his private business.  
 22                 Having said that, I don't have difficulty with
 23  you testing the credibility of it, the difficulty I'm having
 24  is I think it's taking us off the course of what this Inquiry
 25  is about and what I'm ultimately going to have to decide and

1 I think you can do it anyway. 2 MR. TODD WHITE: The -- the only -- the only 3 comment I'd make is that if I have the opportunity to destroy 4 a witness' credibility, I think I'm entitled to do it. I'm 5 not simply to, you know, damage it based upon the allegations 6 he's made, which Your Honour may well know or some of them -- 7 some of which are inconsistent with his police statement or 8 things like that. 9 But what I'm dealing with is and I'm -- and 10 I'm just starting, is basic questions that -- and again, when 11 -- when -- I thought the answer was pretty clear yesterday 12 that he doesn't, never did, work in the computers, work for 13 Compaq, never got that contract and he's given different 14 answers in respect to that. 15 I'm of the view and again, I have a theory, 16 that his entire list of clients are nonsense and I have a 17 theory, as well, that -- that when it comes to a product, his 18 reluctance to talk about products is because there are none 19 and so when he's hired by gas and hydro people and other 20 people, he's hired on a pittance retainer to keep his ear to 21 the ground through friends and to see what information on 22 policy and what -- and that's what I understand his evidence 23 was with respect to Molson's. 24 He wasn't lobbying to sell beer. He was 25 listening to see what's happening in the City of Toronto and

1 that's my understanding as to what's happening with liquor 2 licensing, patios, sporting events. Those kind of things and 3 to give them a heads up. You know, by the way, you know, 4 there's going to be a big rally and perhaps you want to get a 5 Molson adverti -- something like that. 6 So the sale of products and I use that word 7 without meaning any disrespect to anyone. I think we all 8 understand, it's like the sale of computers to the City of 9 Toronto. The sale of products is something that he doesn't 10 have any experience with and when I've gone through the list, 11 I don't see any products. 12 I see a lot of services, management 13 consulting, tow trucks, automation solutions, things like 14 that. So my first question is, what's the secret because 15 there are no secrets and why can't he answer the question and 16 still, he hasn't listed a product and so Your Honour may, you 17 know, so when Your Honour says, is that good enough, Mr. 18 White? 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You see for me, and I'll 20 hear from Commission Counsel and from Ms. Rothstein as well, 21 but for me sitting here as the Commissioner of this Inquiry, 22 and at the end of the day I have to make recommendations and 23 I have to obviously assess credibility, in a way that has 24 turned out to be probably more important in this Inquiry than 25 it has been in some other Inquiries.

1 And so, I've been quite reluctant with all 2 counsel to restrain counsel in terms of cross-examination. 3 However, I can tell you that from my perspective, I think 4 it's going to be far more relevant for me to see how he does 5 when you ask him questions about Mr. Marentette, Mr. Simone, 6 Mr. -- the OPP. 7 And after that, if you still want -- if you 8 feel that you haven't accomplished what you need to do and 9 you still want to go into something further, then you may -- 10 you may feel you need to, you may very well feel that you 11 don't need to at all. 12 But I'm just saying that from where I sit here 13 right now, and now it's 11:30 and I can think of maybe you 14 know, two (2) things that we've accomplished in the hour and 15 a half that we've been here already. 16 So, why don't I hear from Mr. Manes, and Ms. 17 Rothstein, if they have anything further to say, and -- and 18 then we'll take a break before we call on Mr. Carnevale. 19 MR. RONALD MANES: Commissioner, Mr. White is 20 indeed -- has a responsibility to protect Mr. Lyons 21 reputation, and it is right to say that the credibility of 22 witnesses is an important issue, and in fact, in this Inquiry 23 it is a critical issue. 24 But credibility does not give My Friend, Mr. 25 White, the right to cross-examine on any area. He concedes

1 he can cross-examine on -- he shouldn't be cross-examining on 2 the witness' personal life. 3 MR. TODD WHITE: No, I can, I'm not, but I 4 can. 5 MR. RONALD MANES: I don't -- 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'll hear from you 7 further, Mr. White, if there's anything further. As I have 8 said in the past -- 9 MR. TODD WHITE: Okay. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- I give counsel an 11 opportunity to reply always. I know it's a little tempting 12 here because we have all these microphones around, it's a 13 little tempting for people to just speak up whenever they 14 want to, but I'm still trying to run this as much like a 15 courtroom as possible. 16 MR. TODD WHITE: I apologize. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Mr. Manes...? He 18 said he wasn't going into any collateral -- 19 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes, credibility, and Mr. 20 White's cross-examination, must be relevant to an issue in 21 this case, must be helpful to you in making a report on the 22 Terms of Reference. The questioning must be proper, it must 23 recognize as well, in this context, that the witness has 24 certain interests that he is concerned about. 25 Mr. White is proceeding to cross-examine the

1 witness on his business life, not his personal life, but his 2 business life. And he says that he can do this to the extent 3 that he can, to use his expression, quote, "destroy," 4 unquote, the witness. And I take it what he means is destroy 5 the witness' business credibility in any way he can. 6 My submission to you is that approach is 7 completely improper, it has not -- it's not helpful -- 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Are you saying he's 9 suggesting he wants to destroy his business credibility? 10 MR. RONALD MANES: I'm -- I'm suggesting that 11 when Mr. White says he's wants to quote, "destroy," unquote, 12 the witness, what he is saying is that his intention or his 13 object or his theory, would enable him to destroy the 14 witness' business credibility. 15 It -- it is -- it enables him to go through 16 his resume or his -- his website, and take each and every 17 client or former client and examine to his heart's content, 18 until he gets some admission that it may not have been a 19 client at the time, or it was once a client, but was not any 20 longer a client, or that the product that he was selling for 21 the client, was not the product that he represented he was 22 selling for the client. 23 That in my submission, is not only not 24 helpful, but, it is improper. This examination to this 25 point, is the most, I won't use a pejorative, in pursuing

1 that. 2 My sense, as I sit here, Commissioner, is that 3 in the exchanges with this witness because it's on this one 4 (1) issue, that turns over and over again, that there is a 5 hostility, there is a animus between the witness and Counsel. 6 And I submit, that that is promoted by Counsel 7 by persisting in an area that simply is not helpful any 8 longer to Your Honour. 9 Mr. White says that he does not believe the 10 witness' explanation today. Well, he may not very well 11 believe the witness' explanation. He may not like this 12 witness. 13 He may very well want to destroy this witness. 14 But, it's not for Mr. White to decide on this witness' 15 credibility. It's for the -- Mr. White to examine the 16 witness properly. 17 He has received an answer over and over and 18 over again about the use of this business name, about the 19 reasons that he did not want to say clients names, in the 20 context of an Inquiry. 21 He will continue to return to that and return 22 to that until he gets an answer to his liking and it doesn't 23 appear that he is going to get that answer. 24 If Mr. White has made any point, that point 25 has already been made. And I submit that to allow him to go

1 on, ad infinitum here, is not only going to cost a lot of 2 time and a lot of money, from the taxpayers, but, it is not 3 going to achieve the result that he seeks. 4 So, I submit that he should just go on to a 5 relevant area. 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 7 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Commissioner, obviously, 8 this is a longer debate than is ideal. 9 But, let me just see if I can provide some 10 outline for the way this question ought to be approached, 11 about how far down this road, Mr. White, ought to be entitled 12 to cross-examine this witness, Mr. Carnevale. 13 I start from the proposition, Commissioner, 14 that it's absolutely true that Mr. Lyons or anyone else, 15 whose reputation is at stake is entitled to have an 16 opportunity to cross-examine a witness and put them at some 17 reputational risk, on issues of credibility. 18 But, it is important to that when the cross- 19 examination is direct to credibility issues, that means by 20 definition, it is a collateral issue. It is not an issue 21 directly related to the scope of this Inquiry. 22 It does not follow that because one (1) is 23 entitled to cross-examine a witness on credibility and to 24 demonstrate a witnesses lack of credibility, that any and 25 every question that any Counsel can create, that has some

1 relationship to that issue, that collateral issue of 2 credibility only, is proper or necessary or allowable. 3 That simply doesn't follow. Questions will 4 fall afoul of the rules permitting them if they're 5 argumentative. If they characterize the witness evidence in 6 a way that is really argument, as opposed to a proper 7 question. 8 Arguments are best left for the end of the 9 case, Commissioner, and should not in the ordinary course, 10 form the basis of a particular question from Counsel. 11 There are a variety of other rules. Indeed 12 one (1) does potentially on issues of credibility create the 13 prospect that one needs collateral facts in order to really 14 test the witnesses credibility. 15 It won't, I don't think be possible to truly 16 understand the credibility of this witness with respect to 17 his experience, as a consultant lobbyist by only looking at 18 his website. 19 I would have thought, Commissioner, that one 20 (1) would have to explore at length, the actual work that 21 he's done for each of the company's that's listed and indeed, 22 to really understand whether what he's telling us is true, or 23 not, to test it by other evidence. Other means of suggesting 24 the answers are either true or false. 25 So it will, inevitably, take us down the road

1 of collateral facts and issues, in my submission. 2 More specifically, I haven't yet heard this 3 witness refuse to answer a question that you have directed 4 him to answer and that's important, because although it's not 5 helpful and I wish it weren't so myself when questioning 6 witnesses, witnesses are entitled to say to a Counsel, gee, I 7 don't want to answer that question. Do I have to? 8 And absent direction from you, it is not 9 appropriate for Counsel to characterize their reluctance as a 10 refusal to answer questions that is demonstrative of their 11 credibility. 12 So I think you need to give clear direction to 13 this witness and indeed, to others who are going to be coming 14 to this Inquiry who may have the same concerns about privacy 15 interests, exactly where the lines are. I think you need to 16 tell Mr. White. 17 I think you need to tell the witness how far 18 down the road of exploration into his private affairs you 19 think is necessary and proper in order to allow Mr. White to 20 test his credibility and then if the witness refuses to 21 answer, then you can direct him to answer and then Mr. White 22 can deal with the witness in that fashion. 23 But at this stage, to accuse the witness of 24 keeping secrets that are public, to accuse the witness of 25 refusing to answer crystal clear questions and suggest that

1 all of that should be answered by the witness in the witness 2 box and is of assistance to you in determining issues of 3 credibility is, in my respectful submission, the wrong way to 4 go about it and runs afoul of all of the rules that Counsel 5 are mindful of not breaching. 6 The particular rule, in this case, of getting 7 into lengthy arguments with the witness that are just that, 8 argument for the end of the day and not questions. 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. White? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. TODD WHITE: I think we've spent more time 14 on the argument than the entire I've spent asking questions 15 on this witness. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: It's only been ten (10) 17 minutes. 18 MR. TODD WHITE: But -- well, this round. In 19 my respectful submission, I'll say once again, I'm entitled 20 to cross-examine on credibility. The witness has said that 21 he has been involved in contracts, in RFQ's. He's given 22 evidence on it. He's sold products on behalf of clients. 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, let me ask you one 24 thing and ask you to address this issue. What if after your 25 cross-examination, I say -- or what if he even admits that

1 he's been in business for four (4) years. He's not -- he 2 hasn't been around over a long time. The most significant 3 contract he's ever dealt with is $20 million. That the 4 people on his website may or may not all be his clients. 5 Let's say we go that far. Where does -- where 6 -- how -- 7 MR. TODD WHITE: Then -- 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- how does that -- 9 MR. TODD WHITE: Then he has lied under oath 10 to Your Honour in not directly answering questions 11 yesterday -- 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well -- 13 MR. TODD WHITE: -- about -- 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I -- 15 MR. TODD WHITE: -- giving me -- 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: What I -- 17 MR. TODD WHITE: -- a product. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Hang on, hang on. What 19 I've given you is something he's already said. 20 MR. TODD WHITE: No, but -- 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Everything that I've said 22 is something that is already in evidence. He's only been in 23 business for four (4) years. He -- 24 MR. TODD WHITE: I'm not cross-examining on 25 that.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: No, but I'm saying, like, 2 I -- what I'm saying is if at the end of the day what I have 3 before me is a young man who has been in business for four 4 (4) y