1 2 3 4 TORONTO COMPUTER LEASING INQUIRY 5 6 7 8 ******************** 9 10 11 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE MADAM JUSTICE DENISE BELLAMY, 12 COMMISSIONER 13 14 15 16 17 Held at: East York Civic Centre 18 850 Coxwell Avenue 19 Toronto, Ontario 20 M4C 5R1 21 22 ******************** 23 24 25 June 17th, 2003

2
  1                        APPEARANCES
  2  Ronald Manes   (np)     )Commission Counsel 
  3  Patrick Moore  (np)     )
  4  Daina Groskaufmanis     ) 
  5  Linda Rothstein  (np)   )City of Toronto 
  6  Lily Harmer             )
  7  Robert Centa            )
  8  Gordon Capern  (np)     )
  9  David Moore    (np)     )MFP 
 10  Fraser Berrill  (np)    ) 
 11  Ken Jones      (np)     ) 
 12  Raj Anand      (np)     )Lana Viinamae
 13  Bay Ryley      (np)     )
 14  William Anderson (np)   )Wanda Liczyk
 15  Valerie Dyer    (np)    )Dell Computers
 16  Jennifer Lynch   (np)   )
 17  Edward Greenspan (np)   )Jeff Lyons
 18  Todd White     (np)     )
 19  Hugh MacKenzie  (np)    )Jim Andrew
 20  Jennifer Searle (np)    )
 21  James Orr               )Paula Leggieri
 22  Jeffrey Kramer          )Kathryn Bulko
 23  Amanda Hundert          )
 24  
 25  Joyce Ihamaki           )Registrar

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 4 Exhibits 4 5 6 PAULA LEGGIERI, Resumed; 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Lily Harmer 20 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. James Orr 183 9 Re-Direct Examination by 10 Ms. Daina Groskaufmanis 235 11 12 KATHRYN BULKO, Sworn 13 Examination-in-Chief 14 by Ms. Daina Groskaufmanis 240 15 16 Certificate of Transcript 295 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 2 EXHIBITS 3 No. Description Page 4 5 29 VOLUME III Bound document titled 239 6 "Paula Leggieri" 7 Additional Tab 78 8 9 29 VOLUME IV Bound document titled 239 10 "Paula Leggieri" 11 Additional Tabs 72 and 73 12 13 42 VOLUME I Bound document titled 240 14 " Kathryn Bulko" 15 Tabs 1-82 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 10:00 a.m. 2 3 REGISTRAR: The Inquiry is now in session. 4 Please be seated. 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Good morning. 6 MS. LILY HARMER: Good morning. 7 MR. JAMES ORR: Madam Commissioner, before we 8 start, -- 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr. Orr...? 10 MR. JAMES ORR: -- I was wondering if I could 11 raise a rather fundamental concern, I have about the process. 12 It arises out of a newspaper article in the 13 Globe and Mail this morning, which remarks on the fact that 14 the Inquiry took the unusual step in these binders of 15 releasing my clients personal e-mails which they say quote: 16 "Relates with sexual innuendo and off 17 colour jokes." 18 Of course my client was not taken to those e- 19 mails and these matters are being dealt with in the press. 20 Now, in my submission -- 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Harmer, would you 22 like to have a seat while I deal with this? 23 MS. LILY HARMER: Yes. 24 MR. JAMES ORR: In my submission, and I 25 understand why the binders were put together and it's for the

1 convenience of everybody and move forward. 2 But, it would be my submission that it would 3 be an abuse to put in the those binders documents that you 4 don't believe are probative when you're putting them in. 5 And my client wasn't taken to these documents 6 and in my submission they're not probative. And if those 7 documents were put in with a view that they weren't probative 8 and they weren't going to be referred to in her testimony, my 9 client should get an apology from the people who put them in. 10 The other alternative is, that when they went 11 in, somebody actually thought they were probative because 12 personal e-mails are properly to go to the credibility of the 13 witness. 14 Well, I've got thirteen (13) witnesses with 15 these affidavits arrayed against my client and the City 16 hasn't produced any personal e-mails for these individuals. 17 So, if it's the position of the Inquiry that 18 the personal e-mails are relevant, I want them, for the 19 deponents of the affidavits and Ms. Bulko to level the 20 playing field, and those are my submissions. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Groskaufmanis...? 22 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: Madam Commissioner, 23 those -- the e-mails were put in by -- mostly by Commission 24 Counsel and they were believed to be important and to be 25 probative and I'd like to tell you why.

1 And they certainly weren't put in for the 2 purpose of embarrassing Ms. Leggieri or somehow for some 3 ulterior purpose. 4 The e-mail correspondence between Ms. Leggieri 5 and particularly between Mr. Di Brina, but, also between 6 other members of the staff, were there to try to address the 7 kind of relationship that Ms. Leggieri had with Mr. Di Brina, 8 personally, as well as the kind of relationship that she had 9 with Mr. Di Brina as a staff member and with other staff in 10 the Contract Management Office, and in a sense to show the 11 kind of atmosphere that was there in the Contract Management 12 Office. 13 Mr. Di Brina will be called as a witness. He 14 swore an affidavit in this proceeding. There were questions 15 about him, we intend to call him as a witness. 16 And those e-mails may very well be put to Mr. 17 Di Brina. It wasn't my intention to create another document 18 book for him and he'll be referred to those documents in Ms. 19 Leggieri's binder. 20 I just want to emphasize that they certainly 21 weren't put in for some ulterior or some nefarious purpose 22 and certainly not to purposely embarrass Ms. Leggieri. 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Harmer or Ms. 24 Groskaufmanis, Mr. Orr, I gather is asking for the e-mails of 25 all the other employees. Can you help me with that,

1 recognizing that I have set aside four (4) days for this 2 Inquiry, for this component of the Inquiry. 3 MS. LILY HARMER: If I could just speak to, in 4 particular, I think the most relevant might be considered to 5 be Felix Di Brina's e-mails and we had discussed that with 6 Mr. Di Brina in the course of our investigation. 7 Mr. Di Brina takes the apparently unusual 8 step, at least in the CMO office of double deleting his e- 9 mails immediately after sending or receiving them, which 10 means that they don't exist either in -- sort of an outbox or 11 in a trash can on his system. 12 And so we were unable to obtain any e-mail of 13 any -- from any previous past dates from Mr. Di Brina and he 14 says that has been his practice throughout his tenure in the 15 CMO office. 16 We did not inquire each and every member of -- 17 or each and every individual to look at all of their e-mails. 18 We did go through Ms. Bulko's e-mails in the same way in 19 which we went through Ms. Leggieri's e-mails. 20 And that was an enormous task. We dealt with 21 the other individuals by asking them to provide us with 22 anything relevant but we focussed on Ms. Leggieri, Ms. Bulko 23 and Mr. Di Brina because of the fact that the relationships 24 were brought into issue by Ms. Leggieri in her evidence given 25 on April 9th and 10th.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Orr, do you want say 2 anything further? 3 MR. JAMES ORR: Yeah, I've heard two (2) 4 things. The first thing is that part of the relevance was 5 the e-mails of these people went to the atmosphere in the 6 office. So the e-mails of all the deponents would go to that 7 issue. I would like them all. 8 The second thing I've heard is somebody's 9 gathered up Ms. Bulko's personal e-mails because they were 10 viewed as particularly relevant and I don't have them and I 11 would like those. All the personal e-mails. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Everybody is nodding, so 13 I take it that you do have them. 14 MR. JAMES ORR: Oh, I -- 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Whatever it is. 16 MR. JAMES ORR: I don't -- a disk was sent 17 over of her e-mails? 18 MS. LILY HARMER: The e-mails that were 19 determined to have any relevance whatsoever to the 20 allegations raised by Ms. Leggieri were introduced -- put in 21 -- scanned and put into the database and produced. So they 22 are accessible to all counsel with standing, to all the 23 parties and that is the form in which that was done and that 24 was done some time ago. 25 MR. JAMES ORR: Well, the thing that concerns

1 me about that is, of course, my client is adverse to the City 2 and if it's the City determining the relevance, I'd just like 3 the unedited version and I can take a look for myself. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Well, first of all 5 -- first of all with respect to the personal e-mails of the 6 other Affiants; unless they would be helpful to me in making 7 the decision that I have to make, I -- I see no reason 8 whatsoever to delve into the personal -- the e-mails of 9 thirteen (13) other people. I don't need it for what I need 10 to decide and the real issue for me here is primarily the -- 11 the allegations that Ms. Leggieri makes with respect to 12 employment. 13 What I'm concerned about in this section is 14 whether or not the City has done anything that affects my 15 process and the integrity of the process of the Inquiry; 16 that's what I'm concerned about in this particular section. 17 So off the top of my head, I don't see how that would helpful 18 to me at this point, to have all the e-mails of everybody 19 else. 20 I take it was Ms. Le -- what Ms. Groskaufmanis 21 is saying is that the document book that has been prepared 22 for Ms. Leggieri will be used for all the witnesses who are 23 coming to testify this week and that is not uncommon, Mr. 24 Orr, just so you know. That's -- 25 MR. JAMES ORR: No, they already advised me.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: That's been done in the 2 past rather than cut down any more trees than we need to cut 3 down if -- if a group of witnesses are going to be all 4 touching about on the same thing, we're trying more and more 5 now to put them all into one document binder. So the -- the 6 evidence on all of this has not yet been heard from all of 7 these people. 8 I guess, one of the difficulties with e-mail 9 as I suspect everybody is learning, partially as a result of 10 this Inquiry but also as a result of other things going on in 11 the world, is -- is there -- people tend to sometimes write 12 things in an e-mail that they would never put in a letter and 13 it has resulted in maybe more things happening in an office 14 environment than used to happen before we had the advantage 15 or disadvantage of having this quick method of communication. 16 In terms of whether or not this is an unusual 17 step of releasing the e-mails, I'm not sure that it is, quite 18 frankly, Mr. Orr. I realize you're -- you're just quoting 19 what was in the paper but we -- we'd had e-mails here right 20 from the very beginning of the Inquiry and some of them -- 21 some of them are personal and some of them are not. So at 22 this point, I just don't think it would be helpful to me to 23 have all of the personal e-mails of the people who are going 24 to be here testifying who -- who I hope will be very short 25 and not as long as Ms. Leggieri or Ms. Bulko.

1 And as I say, my focus in all of this is to 2 try to determine whether the integrity of the Inquiry process 3 has been negatively affected. That's my real interest here. 4 And if it has, then obviously it's very 5 serious to me and if it's hasn't, then obviously, it's a 6 serious issue, as well. All right. Mr. Orr? 7 MR. JAMES ORR: I guess, the only issue I 8 would raise, is I understand the ruling with respect to all 9 the other people, but Ms. Bulko is being put forward, you 10 know, exactly adverse to my client, and I would like the 11 unredacted e-mails without the City's input into their view 12 of what's relevant or not. 13 And they may well be right on what's relevant, 14 but usually the other party doesn't get to make that decision 15 completely, especially if they're the party being 16 investigated into. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Groskaufmanis, do you 18 know -- can you help me on that? 19 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: Perhaps I can, 20 Commissioner. 21 We have asked all parties with standing to 22 produce all documents that would be relevant or that would be 23 helpful to this Inquiry. 24 We have not -- we've asked that of MFP, we've 25 asked that of the City, we've asked that of Ms. Viinamae and

1 Mr. Andrew and Ms. Liczyk. 2 We asked the same of Ms. Leggieri, as a party 3 with standing. We have asked those -- we have asked parties 4 to produce documents, we've asked them to do that based on 5 your rules and the undertaking is they have to state -- they 6 have to produce those documents. 7 Commission Counsel has not gone behind that 8 except where we've noticed there might be documents missing, 9 or where there are pointed inquiries. 10 We haven't, for example, gone on a fishing 11 expedition through MFP's records to try to determine what is 12 relevant or what is helpful but, certainly we've pushed them 13 where there are issues. 14 It would be unusual, to say the least, now to 15 ask the City to go behind the City's investigation and to -- 16 and behind the City's document production, because this is 17 document production not unlike any other, and to require them 18 to turn over huge amounts of documentation, much of which is 19 probably irrelevant, some of which may very well be 20 confidential and engage privacy interests for example, that 21 are far outside the scope of this Inquiry and permit Mr. Orr 22 or Ms. Leggieri to make those kinds of inquiries. Mr. Orr is 23 actually in the same position. 24 Certainly I asked him, whether Ms. Leggieri 25 had personal e-mail accounts. We have two (2) e-mail

1 accounts that we've seen of Ms. Leggieri that are personal, 2 one (1) is a Cogecco account, the other is what I call the 3 Hotmail account. 4 I asked him whether Ms. Leggieri had turned 5 over all documents that were relevant from the Cogecco and 6 Hotmail accounts, Mr. Orr advised me that, yes, she had in 7 fact turned those over, he'd make further inquiries and if 8 there was anything, he would turn them over. 9 It would have been -- what Mr. Orr is asking, 10 is similar if I had simply said, well that I'd like to have 11 all of the e-mails from Ms. Leggieri's Cogecco and Hotmail 12 accounts and to turn those over and permit me to go through 13 them. 14 First of all, I think that's probably an 15 unwieldy and an unnecessary complication in trying to move -- 16 try to move this part of the Inquiry forward in a fair 17 manner. We're going to bog ourselves down on that. 18 It doesn't seem to me that Mr. Orr has -- it 19 would be unprecedented for Mr. Orr to go through the City's 20 e-mail account to satisfy himself. 21 If there are particular documents he thinks 22 there might be missing, or particular inquiries that he 23 thinks the City should have made, you know, I welcome him to 24 try to address those. 25 But simply to do a double check or to go on a

1 fishing expedition, it's my submission, that that's outside 2 the scope of what would be acceptable for parties with 3 standing. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Harmer...? 5 MS. LILY HARMER: I'm just looking at a chart 6 that Mr. Centa has shown me that is a summary of all of the 7 e-mails, the number, the volume. 8 And the City's -- during the City's 9 investigation, the total number of e-mails that were reviewed 10 was over twenty thousand (20,000). 11 I don't think it would be helpful and I echo 12 Ms. Groskaufmanis' comments on this and your concern also, 13 Commissioner, if that exercise was gone through again by 14 anyone. 15 I can simply tell you that the City approached 16 this investigation and this particular part of the 17 investigation, with a -- as it would any document production 18 exercise, use an arguably relevant test, and produce anything 19 that might be arguably relevant to what was raised and put in 20 issue by Mr. Orr's client herself. 21 And so to that extent, we are fully satisfied 22 that we have done the absolute most that we could do, in 23 terms of identifying arguably relevant in the document from 24 whomever. From either Ms. Bulko or Ms. Leggieri and I -- I 25 do think that is sufficient and appropriate and is all that

1 needs to be done in this case. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Orr...? 3 MR. JAMES ORR: The City had all of Ms. 4 Leggieri's e-mails. I mean, they haven't produced any for 5 periods because we understand they can't access them but they 6 are the adverse party. They've had all my client's e-mails 7 and they've looked through them. 8 I am adverse to them and I don't have all Ms. 9 Bulko's e-mails to look through. I'm just trying to get on 10 the same kind of footing because these e-mails are being put 11 to my client to test her credibility. I'd like to look 12 through those e-mails to see if there's some that I would 13 like to put to Ms. Bulko to test her credibility and I 14 believe that would assist the Commission in weighing the 15 credibility of these witnesses. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Groskaufmanis, do you 17 want to say one more thing? 18 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: I don't -- I don't 19 intend to belabour this point. Madam Commissioner, this is 20 an Inquiry, it's not a trial. Mr. Orr -- Mr. Orr and Ms. 21 Leggieri are parties with standing. They are not adverse in 22 interest in a legal sense to the City or to the Commission. 23 The Commission is not adverse in interest to Ms. Leggieri or 24 to Ms. Bulko. Our -- the Commission, we're there to try to 25 understand what happened, to try to understand the facts of

1 what's there, to get a full and complete picture. 2 I'm a bit concerned about the use of adverse 3 in interest because simply this is -- this is an Inquiry, it 4 is not a trial and the same kinds of -- the same kind of 5 interests are not engaged. 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Harmer...? 7 MS. LILY HARMER: If I could just add, the 8 City has a proprietary interest in all of the e-mails from 9 its em -- that are generated by its employee at the City on 10 City computers. 11 Ms. Leggieri was reminded of that very fact by 12 Ms. Bulko in an e-mail to her. I don't have the reference 13 here but I can certainly raise that in my questioning of Ms. 14 Leggieri. And there are significant confidential issues that 15 also are raised. 16 Ms. -- Ms. Bulko is a manager and therefore 17 has access and is provided via e-mail with a number -- a 18 variety of confidential City documents, which it's not 19 appropriate, in my submission, to permit anyone else to go 20 through just for the -- the exercise that is -- the -- the 21 document, just for the record, that was sent by Ms. Bulko to 22 each of her supervisors, to Chris Hull, Paula Leggieri, and 23 Line Marks on the 19th of February, 2002. It's Begdoc 24 COT0-62957. It says: 25 "One thing I have learned from this KPMG

1 review is that our e-mails are not our own 2 personal business. The data is corporate 3 property." 4 And then she goes on to say that: 5 "It pops up on the PC every morning before 6 signing on. I just want to remind you that 7 all the tools including PC, internet, 8 printers we use daily in our job are 9 corporate assets used to perform our 10 business and must be used for business use 11 only. Please communicate this to your 12 staff. This is not an accusation of 13 inappropriate use, this is simply just a 14 reminder." 15 So she was reminding the staff on that day of 16 that policy. So just to bring that to your attention, as 17 well. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, on the 19 basis of what both -- both Ms. Groskaufmanis and Ms. Harmer 20 have said, I don't see any point right now of ordering the 21 City to provide all Ms. Bulko's e-mails. 22 I am concerned about confidentiality and 23 privacy issues because obviously the City has to be -- has to 24 deal with that and I'm not prepared to find that Ms. Harmer 25 and Ms. Centa who went through the twenty thousand (20,000)

1 e-mails have done anything in bad faith and I know Mr. Orr, 2 you're not suggesting that. 3 MR. JAMES ORR: No, I'm just saying -- 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I know that you're not 5 suggesting that they have and I know what you're saying. 6 What I'm saying -- 7 MR. JAMES ORR: Yeah? 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- is that as far as I'm 9 concerned, couns -- it was counsel for the City who went 10 through all of the e-mails and tried to find those that were 11 arguably relevant and helpful to me and I'm prepared to 12 accept that at this point. 13 If there's anything that, in the course of the 14 Inquiry that, Mr. Orr, that you find that you think would be 15 helpful then I'd suggest that you speak with Commission 16 Counsel and see if we can get that; that has happened with 17 others in the Inquiry between MFP and the City, for example, 18 where Commission Counsel has -- has assisted but this is -- 19 this is not a situation where we have parties where we have 20 adverse interest. This is a Public Inquiry and the parties 21 with standing are not people who are adverse in interest. 22 We use the word, party, simply because its 23 sort of easier to use, and it's one (1) of the words that 24 lawyers understand. 25 But if you look at all of the documentation of

1 other Public Inquiries, there have been times when they say 2 specifically that party is not intended to mean, party in the 3 way its used in the rules of civil procedure. 4 So, at this point, I don't see that it would 5 be helpful to me to do that. We've taken another twenty (20) 6 minutes today that I think would be more useful to hear from 7 the witnesses so I can make a determination and a final 8 analysis of whether the integrity of the Inquiry process has 9 been affected. 10 But I encourage you to speak with Ms. 11 Groskaufmanis and Ms. Harmer, if there's anything specific 12 that you think that you want them to look into but I'm not 13 interested in a fishing expedition of twenty thousand 14 (20,000) e-mails. 15 Okay. Ms. Harmer...? 16 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. LILY HARMER: 18 Q: Good morning, Ms. Leggieri. 19 A: Morning. 20 Q: I know you told Ms. Groskaufmanis 21 yesterday that you didn't belong to a union at the City, 22 correct? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And that's because you were a supervisor, 25 right, and at a supervisory level you're not a union member?

1 A: Management, yes. 2 Q: And so that means that the terms and 3 conditions of your employment aren't covered by a collective 4 agreement, right? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: Okay. And so, you don't have a written 7 employment contract either, do you? 8 A: I do not. 9 Q: And so you don't have a written contract 10 guaranteeing you a job with the City? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. And one (1) of the things that 13 you've talked about is the idea of being a permanent employee 14 with the City. That concept is familiar to you? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And I want to talk to you a little 17 bit about what that means to you, to be a permanent employee. 18 And I understand that was an important matter for you when 19 you were transitioning from the Conversation Authority to 20 Councillor Filion's office, correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: That was an important issue, you wanted to 23 make sure that you were considered a permanent employee when 24 you made that switch? 25 A: That I maintained my permanent status,

1 yes. 2 Q: Right. And what -- what you mean, I take 3 it, and I want to walk you through some context, and we'll 4 see if we both understand what you mean by permanent status, 5 is that when you move from one (1) position in the City to 6 another position in the City, you take certain benefits or 7 things with you, is that fair? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: So, for instance, you might take with you 10 your vacation entitlement, however many weeks of vacation 11 you're entitled to, is that right? 12 A: You might. 13 Q: Okay. And another thing you would take 14 with you, would be the level of benefits, if you for instance 15 if, length of time at the City matters to your benefits, you 16 would carry that forward with you, from one (1) job to 17 another? 18 A: Benefits are based on your job position, I 19 believe, not on your seniority. 20 Q: Okay. Fair enough. So that doesn't -- 21 that's not necessarily part of a permanent status, right? 22 A: What it is a continuation of your 23 employment. 24 Q: Okay. So, when you say continuous, you 25 mean in other words, your length of service with the City

1 when you take your new position would include and carry 2 forward the length of time you spent in previous positions 3 with the City, as a permanent employee, is that fair? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. So, we're really talking about 6 length of service. 7 A: Can you -- 8 Q: Okay, let's use the example, from when you 9 moved from the Conservation Authority to Councillor Filion's 10 office. 11 And I may have my numbers a little bit wrong, 12 but you were at the Conservation Authority, for about ten 13 (10) years is that right? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And when you went to Councillor's Filion's 16 office in 1998, you were concerned to ensure that your 17 employment in his office recognized that you were a ten (10) 18 year City employee, as opposed to a brand new City employee? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. So, that's what I mean by length of 21 service, we're in agreement on that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. So, as a permanent employee with 24 permanent status, you carry your length of service with you, 25 it's portable, right?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And if your position were to be 3 eliminated, for instance, then and you're entitlement to 4 reasonable notice, assuming there was nothing else for you, 5 let's say your position was terminated as a result of its 6 disappearance, that your entitled to a severance payment, 7 which would recognize that length of service that you brought 8 with you? Fair enough? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. It doesn't mean when you're a 11 permanent employee, I take it, that you're guaranteed a job 12 with the City; is that fair? 13 A: I don't think any employee is guaranteed a 14 job. 15 Q: Okay. That's -- that's helpful. And so 16 you're not guaranteed a replacement job necessarily if your 17 job disappears for some reason? 18 A: I don't think any job is guaranteed in any 19 company. 20 Q: Okay. And if your job disappears, does 21 that mean you're not -- there's no guarantee of the employer 22 having to find you a replacement job for that? 23 A: Unless they have a policy on it, no. 24 Q: Okay and so in -- in your particular case, 25 does it -- as I understand it, there is no policy

1 guaranteeing an employee a job so long as that person is not 2 a member of a union at the City. Is that your understanding? 3 A: There is no policy but there is probably 4 precedent. 5 Q: Okay. There may be precedent but there's 6 no policy that you're aware of that says if a job -- if your 7 job disappears, the City is obliged to find you another one. 8 Fair enough? 9 A: Fair enough. 10 Q: Okay. And similarly there's no policy 11 which says if your job disappears, the City is obliged to 12 provide you with training to enable you to qualify for 13 another job, right? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Yes, that's -- I'm right? 16 A: Yes, you are right. 17 Q: Okay, thanks and if the City chooses to 18 assist an employee in training, for instance, that's at, more 19 or less, to put it very bluntly, at the City's discretion? 20 Is that right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And there may be precedent but again, it's 23 -- it's what the City chooses to do or not to do? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Correct?

1 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: And similarly with helping an employee to 3 find another position. Again, it's something the City might 4 do but it's nothing they're required to do. Right? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: Okay. So, the bottom line, I take it 7 then, in terms of -- even if you're permanent employee is 8 that you're not entitled to a job. You've already agreed to 9 that and that -- e -- that's even if you're a good employee, 10 right? 11 A: That's -- yes, that's quite correct. 12 Q: Whether you get glowing performance 13 reviews or otherwise? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And it's -- it's even if y -- the only 16 reason you're -- you're out of a job is because your job 17 becomes redundant, right? Not that -- it may not have 18 anything to do with something you've done. It may simply be 19 a redundancy? 20 A: What are you asking -- 21 Q: Re -- 22 A: -- me? 23 Q: The reason why -- the fact that you don't 24 -- you may not be entitled -- you're not entitled to a job 25 even if you're a good employee and even if the only reason

1 your job disappeared is because it's redundant? 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think she's asking you 3 as a hypothetical, not what happened to you. Is that 4 right -- 5 MS. LILY HARMER: I am not -- 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- Ms. Harmer? 7 MS. LILY HARMER: -- I'm simply doing this as 8 a general concept. 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: General, right. It 10 was -- 11 THE WITNESS: Hypothetically, if your job is 12 redundant -- 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. LILY HARMER: 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: What did you ask me? 17 Q: I asked you -- well, we've agreed that 18 you're entitled to a job at the City and I said that's even 19 if your job has disappeared because of redundancy. No matter 20 what reason. We can do it this way; no matter why your job 21 has disappeared, it doesn't matter -- the reason doesn't 22 matter. You're still not entitled to a job, right? 23 A: Well, I guess that would depend on the 24 circumstance but in most cases, yes. 25 Q: It would depend on what circumstance?

1 A: Well, I mean, if you're let go without 2 cause, I guess that could be different. 3 Q: I don't -- 4 A: In general, if you don't have a jo -- if 5 the City decides to end your job and inform you, then yes. 6 Q: Then yes, you're not entitled to a job? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And whether that's -- whether that's for 9 and so -- wh -- I'm just a little confused about with -- 10 without -- without cause. 11 A: Well, you're -- I don't know all the 12 different circumstances. 13 MR. JAMES ORR: Your Honour? 14 THE WITNESS: This is a very general question. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr. Orr? 16 MR. JAMES ORR: I'm a little worried here 17 because the City and Ms. Leggieri are involved in an 18 employment dispute and I didn't think this was a venue to 19 test her knowledge about the concepts of employment law. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, I don't -- I don't 21 think she's testing her on employment law. She's a City 22 employee who is aware, so far, of everything. 23 If it -- if it helps you, Mr. Orr, MFP is 24 suing the City, the City is suing MFP, Lana Viinamae is suing 25 the City and I -- now, you tell me that there's an employment

1 issue between Ms. Leggieri and the City. So that seems to be 2 at least four (4) that I'm aware of in this Public Inquiry so 3 far. 4 So I -- I don't think Ms. Harmer is asking Ms. 5 Leggieri what the law is and if she is asking her what the 6 law is then I'll ask her not to talk to her about what the 7 law is. She's shaking her head so I assume that she's 8 agreeing that she's not asking what the law is. 9 MR. JAMES ORR: I'm just a little worried 10 about the hypotheticals, that's all. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, I don't -- I -- 12 well, first of all it's cross-examination but second, I don't 13 have a problem with it. Ms. Leggieri was a manager or is a 14 manager at the City and so she knows -- 15 THE WITNESS: The supervisor -- 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- the supervisor, so 17 that's part of management, I understand. Is that what you 18 just said earlier? 19 THE WITNESS: The management position. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Management position, so I 21 would expect somebody in a management position in the City to 22 have some understanding of what the City's position is with 23 respect to termination or finding jobs for other people, or 24 something like that. 25 In her case, she might need to know, more for

1 -- partly for herself, but also for her employees, although 2 the staff who reports to her are unionized. Okay. 3 MS. LILY HARMER: Thank you. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. LILY HARMER: 6 Q: And I just want to -- I want to move on, 7 but I just want to clarify the point and it may just be my 8 misunderstanding of your use of the concept. 9 You said something about, without cause. When 10 I said to you -- 11 A: I said you were being very general. If 12 you could just repeat the question I'll simplify it if I can. 13 Q: Okay. Let me go back -- let me go back 14 and we'll do that again. 15 We've agreed, we've established that a 16 permanent employee at the City of Toronto is not necessarily 17 entitled to a job, if their job disappears. We've 18 established that. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And my final question to you on that 21 point, and that exists, that -- that -- there's no 22 entitlement even if your job disappears through no fault of 23 your own, right? 24 And even if you've been an exemplary employee 25 and there's no issue about your conduct or cause of anything

1 like that to lead to the disappearance of your job, or to the 2 termination of your employment, right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: In any circumstance, you're not entitled 5 to a job with the City if your job disappears, right? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: Thank you. Now, with respect to finding 8 jobs or getting a position with the City, as I understand it 9 and you're probably more familiar with this than I am, but 10 jobs are, for the most part, posted on a website that is run 11 by the Human Resource Department, is that right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And that website is accessible to 14 City employees who can go online and look to see what jobs 15 are available at any given time, is that right? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Do you know whether that website is also 18 available to the general public? 19 A: I believe so, but I'm not sure if they 20 would see the same types of jobs. 21 Q: Okay. And as I understand it, some jobs 22 may be posted, by posted I mean advertised, simply 23 internally, so that only City employees may be eligible to 24 apply in some circumstances, is that -- is that right? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And other times, it may be that the job is 2 advertised widely and both City -- current City employees and 3 members of the public are invited to apply, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And typically, when you're 6 looking for a job, as a City employee, when you're looking 7 say to advance, or to move to another area, whether laterally 8 or for advancement purposes, you don't usually just walk into 9 a new job. You usually have to apply for it, is that right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you usually have to compete with other 12 applicants, right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that's indeed what you were doing in 15 some of the job information that we looked at yesterday. I 16 think you had applied for a couple of jobs in August of 2002. 17 You had applied to a job posting on the Human 18 Resources web page, is that right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And you new that you would apply 21 and you'd go through the process and if you -- you might 22 become the successful applicant, if you were the winner of 23 that competition, right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And you had to do that, in fact,

1 for your current position of supervisor of leasing, even 2 though you'd been in the job for a period of time, there was 3 a formal posting and you went through a formal process, is 4 that right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Right. Okay. And you were the successful 7 applicant obviously, of that one (1)? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. Now -- I want to talk now 10 specifically about your position, the supervisor of leasing 11 position. 12 I take it that there's no issue with your 13 evidence -- in your evidence, that that position has now 14 become redundant, have I got that right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And that -- you knew that, at least 17 by the meeting with Kathryn Bulko of October 25th of 2002, 18 right, that it was going to become redundant? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. You knew leasing was going to end 21 and I understand that in the course of that meeting, you 22 discussed with Ms. Bulko the fact that there was about two 23 (2) months of work left, there was a report she wanted you to 24 prepare for the end of the year, which would wrap up the 25 leasing program, is that right?

1 A: That's not correct. 2 Q: Okay. So, you did not understand that 3 there were two (2) months of work left, is that your 4 evidence? 5 A: She did not tell me that there was two (2) 6 months of work left -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: -- at the time. 9 Q: So Ms. Bulko did not tell you that in the 10 meeting of October 25th? 11 A: She did not. 12 Q: And did you, yourself, form an impression 13 that there was two (2) months of work left at some point in 14 time? 15 A: I did not. There was no time period. 16 Q: All right and until when -- when did you 17 become aware of the fact that you had two (2) months left in 18 the job? 19 A: I received a letter on December 16th 20 saying that the supervisor position had work for two (2) 21 months. 22 Q: That was the letter from Ms. Bulko on the 23 16th of -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- December.

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay and we're going to go look at some of 3 those letters later. So we can -- we can do that then, just 4 so we -- I don't skip -- fumble around with books, if that's 5 all right with you? 6 So were you advised that there was -- that you 7 would need to be wrapping up the leasing program at that 8 time? 9 A: Yes. The leasing program, I was told, 10 would end it -- to wrap -- to wrap up the leasing program. 11 That was in November that she actually used the words wrap up 12 the leasing program. 13 Q: And that was at the early part of 14 November, the meeting that you told us about? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. I think -- I think the date you 17 gave that meeting was November 6th, right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. SO whether it was the 25th of 20 October or November 6th, sometime around that time period you 21 understood you were wrapping up the leasing program? 22 A: She said start to look at how you're going 23 to wrap up the leasing program. 24 Q: And did you understand at that point that 25 you had a couple of months to do that?

1 A: No, I did not. 2 Q: Okay and how long did you expect it would 3 take you? 4 A: I didn't know because I had to go back and 5 look at what are all the steps involved. 6 Q: I see and so -- all right. Okay. So at 7 that point in time -- we're going to come back to that point 8 but at that point in time, you understood that at some point 9 in the future, not too far down the road presumably, your 10 position would no longer exist. 11 A: I didn't -- 12 Q: Right? 13 A: -- know a time period. 14 Q: Okay, you had no idea? 15 A: I had no idea. 16 Q: So did you expect it might last for 17 another six (6) months? 18 A: We had a lot of work and we were very busy 19 so I had no idea. 20 Q: Did you think it was possible it could 21 last for another six (6) months? 22 A: I had no idea of the time period. 23 Q: Did you give it any thought, whatsoever? 24 A: No, I as -- no, I did not. 25 Q: So did you have in your mind that there

1 was actually going to be work for a considerable period of 2 time? 3 A: What I was told was that the Supervisor's 4 position would be ending but I would receive training and IT 5 did not want to lose a competent employee. So in my mind, 6 there would be a transition. 7 Q: I understand that but I'm talking about 8 the work that was related specifically to the Supervisor of 9 Leasing position which, as I understand it, you would be 10 responsible for wrapping up whatever leasing programs still 11 existed. 12 So if we just focus on that part, not what you 13 anticipated would happen through a transition period, what 14 period of time did you have in your mind that you would 15 continue in that role? 16 A: At that time, I did not have a period in 17 mind. I had to go back and look at what had to be done. 18 Q: So you didn't have any idea? 19 A: I didn't. 20 Q: Okay and what -- so -- okay, so what you 21 did know was that at some point in the future it would end 22 and there would have to be a transition. 23 What -- so what -- as I understand it, it may 24 be in addition to the period of time, what wasn't clear to 25 you at that point in time was what was going to happen to you

1 and what position you might ended up in -- might end up in 2 and that's what you really wanted clarity on at that point. 3 Is that right? 4 A: Could you just repeat that? I'm sorry. 5 Q: Yeah. What wasn't clear to you once you 6 were made aware the Supervisor of Leasing position was going 7 to end was what was now going to happen to you and what 8 position you might find yourself in? Is that fair? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: You knew your job was ending, the one you 13 were in -- the position you were in? 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: But you didn't yet know what you were 16 going to be doing next? Right? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: Okay. And that was one of the things that 19 you discussed with Kathryn Bulko in your meetings with her in 20 October and early November -- 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: -- of 2002? And if we go to -- can -- do 23 you have Volume III there and Tab 77. It should be right 24 near the end. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Do you have that? 4 A: I do. 5 Q: Those are your notes that you provided us 6 with yesterday morning. Is this your -- these are your notes 7 in your handwriting? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: And this is a note from the meeting that 10 you attended with Kathryn on October 25, 2002? 11 A: October 17th, it says. 12 Q: Oh, yes. I've got mine already opened. I 13 meant to ask you to turn to the fourth page in please. 14 That's what happens when you're to prepared. Okay? And its 15 got a B/F at the top, and it's October 25/02. 16 You've got -- 17 A: -- yes, hmm hmm -- 18 Q: -- that page? Okay. And as I understand 19 it, these are notes you made of your meeting with Kathryn 20 Bulko on October 25th 2002? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: Okay? And so we see here that what was 23 discussed was, the first point was: 24 "Will retain in IT or other area...: 25 Is that with, what's the -- what are the last

1 two (2) words? 2 A: It just means in the Corporation. 3 Q: Oh, in the Corporation. Okay. So, if -- 4 with the City, in other words? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Will retrain in IT or some other area in 7 the City? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: Okay. And in the next point: 10 "Will not lose a skilled labourer? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you've got that in quotes. Was that 13 for some reason, why that's in quotes? 14 A: Well, because that's the word she used. 15 Q: Okay? What are those little initials over 16 at the left? Says, HRIT? 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: What does that -- 19 A: -- this is what she said, HRIT, will not 20 loose a skilled labourer, such as yourself. 21 Q: Okay. The next point, support job 22 transition? I take it that's a discussion about how Kathryn 23 and the Division will assist you in -- in trying to 24 transition into something new? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And then as you -- 2 A: -- said they would support a job 3 transition. 4 Q: Right. And then close out position? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. I'm going to stop there. So those 7 are the -- the things that were discussed in terms of what 8 was going to happen to you. And that's Paula, the person, 9 not the Supervisor of Leasing? Right? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: Okay. And I've made that distinction 12 because we understand, I think you agree that a position can 13 end and then what -- what this -- what your meeting then was 14 about was what would happen to you individually? Right? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: Okay. And when it says, City -- the City 17 support -- where says support job transition, I take it that, 18 that would mean, and I think I -- you've already indicated 19 this; that would mean assistance in identifying -- helping 20 you identify new job opportunities that might become 21 available? 22 A: Well, what I was told is that we would 23 look at job opportunities in the area, or what training in 24 IT, and we would talk about it later on. 25 Q: So, by "we", who do you mean?

1 A: Kathryn and myself. 2 Q: Right? For the two (2) of you, would 3 discuss this issue further? Right? 4 A: She just said, we'll talk about it. I 5 asked her if, look it, will I lose my salary? She said, 6 you'll be fine, don't worry about it. There's -- this is a 7 very general meeting. 8 Q: Right? 9 A: Not specific. 10 Q: And so in identifying these new 11 opportunities, that was something you would do jointly, I 12 take it? That was your understanding? 13 A: My understanding was that, I said, well 14 what will happen? She says, don't worry. We'll -- we'll 15 work with you. We'll sit down and talk about it. 16 Q: Right? 17 A: And I didn't think the onus was on for me 18 to go find everything. I thought, she said, don't worry, 19 we'll talk about it further. 20 Q: You didn't think the onus was on you to 21 find yourself another position? 22 A: No. She said we'd talk about tran -- 23 transition, that there, you know, there might be a position 24 in IT. It was very general discussion. I don't -- all she 25 told me was that HRIT will not lose a skilled labourer; they

1 would support a transition, and we'll talk about it further. 2 Q: And you didn't think the onus was on you 3 to take positive steps in that direction? 4 A: That's all that we discussed; what I just 5 told you. 6 Q: Right? But -- okay. So let's just talk 7 about when you come out of that meeting, I take it you would 8 -- you understand your position is going to disappear at some 9 point and you understand the City's going to give you some 10 assistance in finding a job. 11 Did you think that you had any obligation or 12 any -- was there any incentive from that to -- for you to go 13 out and look for work? 14 A: I was -- it was not clarified to me, 15 whether IT had a position in mind for me to train for, or 16 what would happen. We -- she said we'll discuss at a later 17 date. It was not clear to me. I did not know if -- I -- 18 that -- those are the questions I asked when I raised later. 19 Will IT have a certain position for me to 20 train for? 21 Q: I see. So you didn't take steps yourself. 22 You waited to have that further discussion sometime in the 23 future? Is that right? 24 A: That clarification. 25 Q: Right? So you waited --

1 A: -- that's -- that's a big difference. 2 Q: Okay? So you were waiting, as I under -- 3 if I understand what you've said, you were waiting for 4 further clarification before you took any steps to look for 5 job opportunities? 6 A: No. That's not. What I'm saying is, this 7 is what we discussed. She said don't worry about it, work on 8 -- go back, work on, see how long things were going to take 9 with their leasing program, but that was it. 10 Q: Right? And so my question is, when you 11 left that meeting you didn't feel; I take it from what you 12 said, that there was any imperative or any urgency, or any -- 13 any reason for you to go out and start looking for another 14 job; is that what you're saying? 15 A: The meeting was so evasive that I was very 16 confused. 17 Q: The meeting was evasive? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Because -- why, because Ms. Bulko said 20 that you'd discuss it again later? 21 A: No. What -- the meeting was evasive 22 because she was saying on one (1) hand, the supervisor 23 position is ending, close out the program. On the other hand 24 she is saying, don't worry, IT does not want to lose a 25 competent employee, we'll support your job transition and

1 we'll talk about it. That was very evasive and confusing to 2 me at the time. 3 Q: Now, let's just get that straight, so 4 you're told your job's ending, and you're told that you'll be 5 given some assistance in -- in dealing with that situation, 6 and you found that evasive; right? 7 A: I didn't know what type of assistance, 8 what job would I be training for, where would this job be, 9 what -- how long would the training last, will I be paid for 10 this -- will I be paid while I'm training, how -- those types 11 of questions, that affect me. 12 Do I -- do I get paid, when -- when does my 13 job end officially? When -- when will my pay cheques stop, 14 how long will this be supported for, what am I training for? 15 Q: Ms. Leggieri, would it not then -- 16 A: Those -- those questions were not 17 answered. 18 Q: Okay, so you left the meeting with some 19 concerns; fair to say? 20 A: I was told when I left, don't worry about 21 it. 22 Q: But what you're -- 23 A: So you know what, when someone says, don't 24 worry about it. 25 Q: What?

1 A: When -- when someone says don't worry 2 about it, your concerns are settled. On the other hand, 3 she's speaking out of both sides of her mouth, but she's 4 telling me not to worry about it. It was evasive and 5 confusing. 6 Q: I understand that, that's your evidence. 7 And so, if it was evasive and confusing, I take it you still 8 had concerns, fair enough? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you didn't, though, take any steps 11 then to do anything on your own, in terms of looking for work 12 or to -- 13 A: My steps were to meet to clarify with her 14 and try to meet again to clarify what she was saying. 15 Q: Okay. And what efforts did you make to 16 meet again with her? 17 A: We met again -- we talked -- we -- I don't 18 know the exact date when we met again, but we did meet after 19 that. 20 Q: Okay, and so your concerns were -- 21 A: We met on the 17th of October and then the 22 25th, and then on November 6th. 23 Q: All right, and so you had further 24 discussions with Ms. Bulko at that time; right? 25 A: Same story, yes.

1 Q: So you continued to have concerns after 2 all of those meetings? 3 A: I was told not to worry about it. 4 Q: Right, and I understand that, but you've 5 also told me that you were hearing conflicting stories -- 6 A: Yeah, it was very confusing, it was very 7 evasive. 8 Q: So, which was it? Did you have concerns 9 when you left the meeting, or did you not? Did you go along 10 with the suggestion that you not worry? 11 A: Of course I still had concerns because of 12 the evasiveness of the meeting. 13 Q: Okay, but with those concerns, despite the 14 fact that you had three (3) meetings, you still didn't take 15 any steps to look for work on your own, or to identify any 16 opportunities; am I correct? 17 A: What I did do was I e-mailed HR. 18 Q: Is that the November 6th e-mail to Janis 19 David? 20 A: And I -- I don't know the exact date, I do 21 recall e-mailing HR, and I also know that Janis David didn't 22 -- was also evasive. And from my understanding of evidence 23 here, she was -- she had known of a staff report that this 24 position was ending. 25 And when I tried -- when I asked her for

1 information she said on the phone, I don't -- you know, I'm - 2 - this is the first I've heard of it, I guess I'll have to 3 talk to Kathryn. So, that was evasive. 4 Q: Ms. Leggieri, we'll talk about -- we'll go 5 to those e-mails in a few moments, and we'll talk about that 6 further. 7 I just want to make -- I just want to make 8 sure I understand that -- was it your view at the time, 9 having come out of those meetings, where you've had as you 10 describe it, evasive conversations; did you understand that 11 it was going to be the City who would identify the job 12 opportunities for you and that you didn't have -- you could 13 sit back and wait for them to do that? 14 A: I was told exactly what I told you before. 15 Q: You were told that the City would support 16 your job transition; right? And that you didn't need to 17 worry; is that a fair description? 18 A: That IT would not lose a skilled labourer, 19 yes. 20 Q: Right. But did you understand then, was 21 it your assumption, that the City would find you a job? 22 A: My understanding was that IT would not 23 lose a skilled labourer, that I would -- that they would 24 support my job transition. 25 Q: But, Ms. Leggieri, I'm just trying to

1 understand. I understand what you've said -- 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think that was a comma. 3 I -- were you finished? 4 THE WITNESS: I'm done. 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. LILY HARMER: 8 Q: Okay, but my question for you is, did you 9 expect and assume that the City would find you another job? 10 A: I didn't expect and assume, I was told I 11 would get assistance and training. And so I asked questions 12 like, what would the job be, how long will the training -- 13 would be at, and I was not given that information, she said, 14 don't worry about it, you'll not lose your salary. 15 I said, you know, Kathryn, I do have a twelve 16 (12) year old son, she said, don't worry about it, you will 17 not lose your salary. And don't worry about it. 18 Q: And so you just sat back then and said, 19 fine, I'll just wait and see what they do for me? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Is that right? 22 A: I e-mailed HR. 23 Q: Okay. I'm going to deal with that in a 24 moment, as I said. Now, the meeting that you had -- the last 25 meeting that you had with Kathryn I think you said was on

1 November the 6th; right? Of 2002? 2 And that was -- that was about three (3) weeks 3 before you went on sick leave; right? 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Are you okay? 5 THE WITNESS: I actually just need to -- 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 7 THE WITNESS: -- take a break. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Why don't we take what, 9 five (5) minutes, is that enough? 10 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that would be great. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay, we'll take a five 12 (5) minute break. 13 THE REGISTRAR: Order. The Inquiry will 14 recess for five (5) minutes. 15 16 --- Upon recessing at 10:52 a.m. 17 --- Upon resuming at 11:20 a.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: The Inquiry will resume, 20 please be seated. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right, as I 22 mentioned, I think it was on April the 9th when you were last 23 here, Ms. Leggieri, if you ever need a break, you just let me 24 know. 25 THE WITNESS: Okay, thank you.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay? 2 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. Ms. 4 Harmer...? 5 MS. LILY HARMER: Thank you. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. LILY HARMER: 8 Q: I think when we broke, Ms. Leggieri, we 9 were just -- I was just going to start -- or I had just asked 10 you about your sick leave, and I believe my question was that 11 at the -- you had your last meeting with Ms. Bulko on the 6th 12 of November, and within three (3) weeks you had taken sick 13 leave; is that right? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Your sick leave started November 26th? 16 A: Yes, it did. 17 Q: Okay. And so you weren't at work from 18 that point on; right? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And you haven't been back to work since 21 that date; correct? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. And in -- 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Was that -- sorry, was 25 that, no, it's not correct, or no --

1 THE WITNESS: No, I haven't been back. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. LILY HARMER: 5 Q: And so going on sick leave means that you 6 haven't been available to attend any kind of training 7 courses; is that fair? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you haven't been available to attend 10 job interviews; right? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay, and just -- just to clear up one (1) 13 small matter with respect to sick leave. When you're on sick 14 leave as a -- as a City employee, as I understand it, and 15 again, you'll know this better than I; you -- while you're an 16 employee with the City, you accumulate sick credits; right? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And those are to be available when you 19 need to take sick days or a period of sick leave; right? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And this -- and so when you go on sick 22 leave those -- you use those credits to continue your pay for 23 as long as you have credits to cover the period; right? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And each employee will have their

1 own number of credits, depending on their usage in the past 2 and how long they've been employed; right? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: Okay. And I -- as I understand it, the 5 information about your sick credits is contained on your pay 6 stub, so you have information available to you to tell you 7 what -- what credits you have? Do you -- 8 A: No -- 9 Q: -- do you remember that, can you 10 determine -- 11 A: -- I don't. 12 Q: All right. It's not a big issue, and I 13 don't have one (1) to show you, so we'll just leave that. 14 Once you've -- so once you've used up your sick credits, when 15 you're on sick leave, you may have some other credits that 16 you can use, such as vacation pay; right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Vacation time? 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: And there's also something at the City 21 called lieu time? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And as I understand lieu time, that is 24 time where you work extra hours, it's like overtime, that you 25 get pay in lieu; right?

1 A: If approved, yeah. 2 Q: If approved, right. So, you have to get 3 it approved, and once it's been approved, you can accumulate 4 that as a credit, and you can either take time off, or you 5 can use it to apply towards a sick day, if you need to; 6 right? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: Okay. Thank you. And ultimately, for 9 somebody on sick leave, there's a six (6) month waiting 10 period, as I understand it, after which time an employee is 11 entitled to apply for long term disability; right? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: And -- so you have to wait six (6) months, 14 you can't apply sooner than that; right? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: And then that long term disability is 17 through an insurer I think; right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And -- and an employee has to apply 20 and they may or may not be eligible, and that's up to the 21 insurance company to decide; right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay, so those are matters that would be 24 important to someone like yourself, who goes on sick leave; 25 correct?

1 A: That's right. 2 Q: Okay, so you need to -- you need to deal 3 with issues of credit -- sick leave credits, and you need to 4 think about if somebody was on it -- and I'm not saying you 5 necessarily, but if somebody is on sick leave for a long 6 period of time, their mind -- they might turn their mind to 7 eligibility for long term disability; right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And in order to be eligible for long term 10 disability, as I understand it, and I don't know if you know 11 this as a supervisor, but maybe you can help me, you have to 12 be a City employee; right? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: Okay. So, it wouldn't be very helpful, 15 would it, if somebody's employment was terminated if they 16 were intending to apply for LTD before that six (6) month 17 period was up; right? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: Okay. And you -- you yourself then have 20 been on sick leave since November 26th, so it's lasted now a 21 period of about six and a half (6 1/2) months. You haven't 22 been in a position to be able to advise the City when you 23 might be able to return to work, have you? 24 A: I don't know what job I have to go back 25 to.

56
  1                 Q:  No, but I'm talking about your -- your
  2  sick leave status, and as I understand it, when an employee's
  3  on sick leave, they're obliged to keep their employer
  4  informed of their -- of their medical status, and at some
  5  point they advise their employer that they're able now --
  6  their doctor said that they're able to return to work. 
  7  Right?
  8                 A:  That depends on the job you're doing   
  9  and -- 
 10                 Q:  Right.
 11                 A:  -- and --
 12                 Q:  And that's up to you and your doctor and
 13  presumably the employer to determine when that appropriate
 14  period of time is?
 15                 A:  That's right.
 16                 Q:  Or point in time?  And you haven't advised
 17  the City at any point during your sick leave that you've been
 18  able to return to work, have you?
 19                 A:  I don't even know if I'm a City employee
 20  still.
 21                 Q:  Well, Ms. Leggieri, I put it to you that
 22  you haven't been told by the City that you are not a City
 23  employee.  You haven't been terminated, right?
 24                 A:  And I haven't been told that I still have
 25  a job.

1 Q: But you haven't been terminated by the 2 City, have you? 3 A: I haven't been told either way. I have 4 not received written termination -- 5 Q: No. 6 A: -- but I'm confused. 7 Q: I understand that you're confused. 8 A: And that's why I hired a l -- an 9 employment lawyer to clear up this confusion. 10 Q: I understand all that and I don't want to 11 go into -- 12 A: I can't answer that question. I'm 13 confused. I don't know if I have a job or if I don't. 14 Q: And my question wasn't about whether or 15 not you had a job. My question was whether or not you'd ever 16 advised the City that you were now capable, that your doctor 17 had said you are able, to return to work. 18 A: Why would I advise the City if I don't 19 know if they're my employer or not? 20 Q: I guess until you are advised they are 21 not, why wouldn't you; would be my question back to you. 22 A: I've been sending numerous e-mails and 23 have lawyers on it trying to see if I am. Why couldn't they 24 just give me a straight answer and then I could get back to 25 them.

1 Q: So I take it that your answer to my 2 question is no you have not advised the City that you are 3 capable or able to return to work from your sick leave? 4 A: No. 5 Q: All right. And you haven't advised the 6 City that you're able to engage in any kind of training that 7 might be available to you? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And you haven't advised the City that 10 you're now medically able or might be medically able to 11 engage in any kind of serious job interviews or job searches, 12 right? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: Okay. So I -- I put it to you then that 15 given to those circumstances, there hasn't been any real 16 opportunity for either you or the City, anyone at the City 17 including Ms. Bulko, to follow through on any of the steps 18 that we -- that were discussed between you and Ms. Bulko in 19 your meeting of October 25th? 20 A: She had opportunity to confirm that in 21 writing like I asked. I don't trust her verbal. 22 Q: So until -- just so I understand that, 23 until you got confirmation in writing from Ms. Bulko that she 24 would assist you to obtain training and she would, I'll use 25 your words from your notes:

1 "Support your job transition" 2 Until you got that in writing, your -- I take 3 it your position is, you're not going to engage in either 4 looking for training or looking for work. Is that fair? 5 A: No. What I had was other -- you're 6 simplifying it. I had sent an e-mail for -- asking for more 7 than that clarification. 8 Q: So there are a lot of things -- a number 9 of things that you want clarified before you'll engage in 10 those activities? Is that -- have I got that right? 11 A: I'm -- no, I'm getting confused. You'll 12 have to simplify the question or go back. 13 Q: Well, my question was until you got 14 written clar -- confirmation from Ms. Bulko of -- of the 15 things that you discussed at the October 25, 2002 meeting, do 16 I understand you to be saying that you will not engage in 17 looking for a job -- another job at the City or in train -- a 18 training opportunity? 19 A: Why would I look for a job when I don't 20 know if I have a job still? I was not told -- if I have a 21 job still, then why do I have to actively search for another 22 job. I was not told if I had a job or not. 23 Q: So, I take it -- 24 A: So if I have a job, I don't need to go 25 find another job.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, if the -- 2 THE WITNESS: I was not -- 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: If the -- 4 THE WITNESS: I was not -- 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: If -- 6 THE WITNESS: I was not clear. I asked for 7 job status. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right. 9 THE WITNESS: Do I have a job? 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: But as I understood it, 11 when we -- when we talked yesterday you mentioned that -- 12 that you understood that it was the position that was being 13 declared redundant? 14 THE WITNESS: Right. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right. 16 THE WITNESS: Not my City status. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right. So if the 18 position is redundant, it doesn't necessarily mean you don't 19 have a job, it means the position no longer exists. 20 THE WITNESS: That's right. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: So, if -- 22 THE WITNESS: But then I was sent a letter 23 saying there was two (2) months, so I asked for 24 clarification. I just -- I was very confused. I didn't -- 25 my -- my -- I just want to know to this -- like, do I -- have

1 a job or do I not have a job? On one hand you're saying I do 2 have a job, you said I'm still employed by the City but then 3 you're asking why I'm not looking for jobs. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I guess the -- the -- 5 what I understand Ms. Harmer to be asking you is that if you 6 are still employed by the City, they can't do anything until 7 they hear from you as to whether you're medically able to go 8 back to work. 9 THE WITNESS: But I never got -- 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I just want to make sure 11 I've got that right. 12 THE WITNESS: That's a -- 13 MS. LILY HARMER: Thank you, Commissioner, 14 that's exactly where, what I was trying to get at. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, I was never clarified 16 whether I was still employed by the City. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. LILY HARMER: 19 Q: But, that wasn't -- I don't believe that 20 was my question -- 21 A: The question was, if I'm employed by the 22 City, is that correct, then why would I notify them? I 23 didn't know if I had a job or not. 24 Q: So, the fact that you didn't have 25 clarification -- let me just --

1 A: It makes a big difference if you have a 2 job with the City, or you don't, to answer your question. 3 Q: Ms. Leggieri, you know you don't have a 4 job as the supervisor of leasing, because that's 5 disappearing, right. You do know that? 6 A: The supervisor position, yes. 7 Q: Of leasing? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: It's gone? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. You know that in order for you to 12 have another job, there has to be something available, right? 13 Or you're going to have to get training to become qualified 14 for something, right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: One (1) of those two (2) things has to 17 happen, right? 18 A: I guess, yes. 19 Q: All right. And in order to do either of 20 those things, you need to be involved in that process, don't 21 you? 22 A: I would like to be involved in that 23 process but I needed to know my job status. I was involved 24 by sending e-mails and trying to -- I was at home sick, 25 sending e-mails, sending months of e-mails trying to confirm

1 that. 2 That was my involvement. I wasn't just 3 letting it lie. I wanted confirmation -- that was my 4 confirmation, I had specific questions. 5 And then once those questions were answered, 6 then I could best deal with my illness and how that would 7 work. Once those questions of what job would I be trained 8 for, what type of training would it be? When -- would I be 9 paid? How long would that be? All those are factors when 10 you're not -- when you're ill. 11 Q: And my -- 12 A: And returning to work. 13 Q: And my question to you, Ms. Leggieri, was 14 it's not -- I put it to you that it's not possible for the 15 City to determine those things until you say you're able to 16 return to work and can become involved in that very process? 17 Do you agree with that? 18 A: No, because I didn't know I was a City 19 employee or not. I didn't know if I have a job. 20 Q: What does that have to do with anything? 21 A: I think that has to do with everything. 22 Q: You've been told you don't have a job, as 23 supervisor of leasing, right, you know that? 24 A: A position of supervisor -- 25 Q: You have been told that you will no longer

1 be working for the City of Toronto as the supervisor of 2 leasing, right? That job -- that position, pardon me -- 3 A: The position of the supervisor of leasing 4 is -- 5 Q: Is gone -- 6 A: -- is gone. 7 Q: So, now what you're left with and what 8 you've discussed with Ms. Bulko in her meeting of October 9 25th, is that you need to be trained for something else and 10 you need to get out and look at job opportunities that become 11 available, other positions in the City. 12 You mentioned yesterday -- 13 A: Well, there could be other jobs in IT that 14 would -- could be come available that I could be trained for. 15 Q: Certainly -- 16 A: Such as I notice that there is a 17 supervisor position. 18 Q: -- and IT is part of the City, so you need 19 to find another job in the City if you're going to remain an 20 employee with the City. You have to find something else, 21 right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: That is your status. Your job -- your 24 position is over and you need to find something else, right? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And in order to find something else, you 2 have to be -- you yourself have to be part of the process of 3 figuring out what that something else is going to be, right? 4 A: All right. As I said before, all I know, 5 is what I was told at the time, and I was trying to seek that 6 -- I was trying to seek clarification. On one (1) hand 7 they're telling me that I'll have training. I just wanted to 8 clarify that. 9 Q: And so as I understand it then, what you 10 were looking for from the City was an actual job, saying here 11 this is what you will be doing when you come back to work, is 12 that what you were looking for? 13 A: No, I was looking for clarification on my 14 job status, was I still a City employee or was I not? 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Leggieri, you just 16 mentioned that -- and it very quick, so I might not have 17 heard it correctly, but I thought you said that you notice 18 that there is a supervisor position in IT right now? 19 THE WITNESS: That's right. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Is that right? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, there is. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And is it your view, 23 that the City should be telling you about that position then, 24 or -- 25 THE WITNESS: It's not posted on the internal

66
  1  internet.
  2                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:  Right.
  3                 THE WITNESS:  You'd think I'm in IT, I have
  4  had positive performance reviews.  I've worked well within
  5  our unit.  Everybody else is being transitioned.  They're
  6  saying I lack some training in IT, they could say, okay,
  7  here's a position, here's the training you would require, or
  8  even let me know, and at least let me go through the job
  9  process for that in our area, it's in our own unit.
 10                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:  And do you -- 
 11                 THE WITNESS:  I feel I'm qualified for that.
 12                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:  All right.  And are you
 13  able to go back to work then, do you know whether you're able
 14  to go back to work?
 15                 THE WITNESS:  I would be able to speak to my
 16  doctor, and I'm integrating myself.
 17                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:  Yes.  Okay, I guess the
 18  question then becomes, which comes first, from the City's
 19  perspective, do they have to know that you're physically able
 20  to go back to work first, before they talk to you about
 21  potential jobs; or do they have to talk to you about
 22  potential jobs and then see if you're physically able to go
 23  back to work.
 24                 THE WITNESS:  I think the City -- 
 25                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:  I guess I'm going to need

1 some help -- 2 THE WITNESS: -- has an obligation -- 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- on that from the City, 4 as to -- 5 THE WITNESS: -- to tell -- to tell me if I 6 have a job or not, and just to tell me the truth. They said 7 that they knew all this restructuring was going on and that 8 my position ended, why -- you know, it would be -- in my 9 dealings with the City and common practice with people, is I 10 haven't been treated the same way as everyone else. It was 11 very evasive. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And is it your 13 information that -- that when someone is on sick leave, that 14 the City would find them a job while they're on sick leave, 15 or does the City wait to find out whether they're physically 16 capable of coming back to work before they try to find them a 17 job? 18 THE WITNESS: In normal cases if you're on 19 sick leave, you'd have to notify your employer, but -- 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right. 21 THE WITNESS: -- I didn't know my job status. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I guess we're sort of 23 going around in circles, I think that's the -- 24 MR. JAMES ORR: Well -- 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- that's the gist of --

1 THE WITNESS: Let's -- 2 MR. JAMES ORR: -- Madam Commissioner -- 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes. 4 MR. JAMES ORR: -- maybe it'd be helpful. I 5 guess the City -- this a bureaucracy, they've got a lot of 6 written policies that might help us understand -- I just 7 didn't see it in any of the materials. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, it would be helpful 9 to me, Ms. Harmer, if -- if -- if we could have some 10 clarification of that, because what I hear Ms. Leggieri 11 saying is that the employer should wait to hear from -- as a 12 general rule, to wait to hear from the employee as to whether 13 or not they're physically able to get back to work. 14 MS. LILY HARMER: And that's -- that is my 15 understanding. It will be -- there will be, as I understand 16 it, the Executive Director of the IT Division, who will be 17 most familiar with the policy -- those kinds of policies in 18 the IT Division, and he will -- Mr. James Ridge, and he, as I 19 understand it, will be attending to give evidence later this 20 week. 21 We can certainly undertake to see if there are 22 written policies in that regard, but it is my understanding 23 that the City -- 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Is Mr. Ridge giving 25 evidence this week, is he being called as a witness this

1 week? 2 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: That's our 3 intention. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay, all right. Okay -- 5 MS. LILY HARMER: So, we will certainly -- 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: What I'm saying, Ms. 7 Harmer, is it would be helpful to me to know what the City's 8 policies are with respect to that issue. 9 MS. LILY HARMER: Certainly, and I don't think 10 it will be different from what Ms. Leggieri has described, 11 which is that a person on sick leave is not expected to take 12 a -- take a -- to be available for a position until they 13 advise the City of that. 14 THE WITNESS: Well that's what -- you asked my 15 -- I'm not sure on the policy. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. LILY HARMER: 18 Q: Okay, thank you. Okay, I'd like to move 19 to the steps that you've taken since the meeting with Kathryn 20 Bulko, and I'm going to try and move through these quickly, 21 but there are a number of them that you've -- you've taken, 22 to deal with the -- the information that you were provided 23 with by Ms. Bulko, that the Supervisor of Leasing position 24 was ending. 25 And I'd like to ask you to first turn to, and

1 I think we've looked at this before, but Volume II, Tab 88, 2 please. 3 And this is the -- this is the e-mail exchange 4 that you had with Ms. David starting, I believe, on November 5 the 6th. Volume II, Tab 88, do you have that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And in this you were asking Ms. 8 David -- this is the e-mail in which you were asking Ms. 9 David about the -- your years of service; right? 10 You want to know whether the years of service 11 that you put in at the Conservation Authority are -- are -- 12 are going to be carried forward and counted for your 13 employment with the CMO; right? 14 A: Yes -- yes. 15 Q: And this happens on the very day that you 16 have your last meeting with Ms. Bulko; right? 17 A: I don't know if it was the last meeting at 18 the time, I can't remember if the -- 19 Q: Well, you've told us there -- 20 A: -- I can't -- 21 Q: -- were -- 22 A: -- that was a meeting that we had, I don't 23 know if we talked after that, but, yes. 24 Q: Okay, but you've told us about three (3) 25 meetings, I think, October 17, 25, and November 6. This is

1 certainly an e-mail that you sent to Ms. David on the day one 2 of those meetings took place? 3 A: Yeah. Is this the first e-mail I sent to 4 her? 5 Q: I believe so. Yeah, it starts on the 6 second page, Page 2 of 2 because as Ms. Groskaufmanis was 7 explaining yesterday, you have to start at the bottom of an 8 e-mail and work up. 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: Okay? 11 A: There's no other e-mails because I don't 12 have -- 13 Q: So you sent her an e-mail saying: 14 "For clarification, are the years of 15 service spent with an agency, board or 16 commission of the City also recognized as a 17 City of Toronto employee?" 18 Right? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: And you didn't ask about anything else in 21 that e-mail. That was your concern? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: You -- you weren't asking her about any of 24 the issues that you dealt with Kathryn about. You weren't 25 asking her about training?

1 A: Yeah. No, I was not directed to go to HR 2 so -- 3 Q: Yeah. And you weren't asking about other 4 job opportunities, right? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. You were solely focus on what -- 7 how many years of service the City was going to give you 8 credit for? 9 A: That's -- in this e-mail, yes. 10 Q: Okay and you have an exchange with her 11 that goes on for some time on that day, right? Now, if you 12 could turn to Volume III. I'm afraid we have to jump back 13 and forth a little bit, I apologize, but Tab 5 of Volume III. 14 I'm sorry, Madam Commissioner. I should have 15 given you the Doc -- the Begdoc number that -- for Volume II, 16 Tab 88. It was 62821. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. LILY HARMER: 20 Q: Do you have Tab 5? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: This -- if we look at the very last e- 25 mail, the one at the top of the page, it's November 13th and

1 this is a continuation of the e-mail we just looked at where 2 you were seeking clarification about your years of service. 3 Okay? 4 So you continued a correspondence with HR, Ms. 5 David, during that period of time and you'll see that your - 6 - on that same page you're -- in the middle of the page -- 7 it's the Entry 11-08-02 from you to Janis at 11:54 a.m. Do 8 you see that? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: You say to Janis: 11 "Please advise: 1) How to check my 12 employee file --" 13 And you were doing that looking for a letter 14 with respect to your employment with Councillor Filion? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: And secondly you say: 17 "Who can I -- who I can escalate this to, 18 to get this resolved." 19 And what did you mean by that? Were you 20 getting frustrated with HR and you wanted them to do 21 something more quickly or you wanted to go above Ms. David's 22 head or what were you referring to? 23 A: Well, if you look back into her -- to 24 this. She's not giving me an answer. She -- 25 Q: Is this part of -- sorry, go on?

1 A: She's asking me for information. 2 Q: She's not giving you an answer to your 3 question about whether the years of service are going to be 4 counted or not? Do I understand that? 5 A: She's just giving me suggestions and I'm 6 -- she's saying: 7 "You may consider checking your employee 8 file. It would probably contain the 9 letter." 10 And so I said how do I check my employee file. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: And next step, if it's not there then how 13 do I get a copy? That -- that's an e-mail right above. 14 Q: What did you mean by who I can escalate 15 this to to get this resolved? 16 A: How can I get -- how can I check my 17 employee file and the letter itself. 18 Q: So, in -- in escalating you're basically 19 asking the same question twice, how to check your employee 20 file? 21 A: Just give me a second here. 22 Q: Sure. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 A: I have to read the rest of it just to -- 2 Q: Go ahead. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: I believe I was asking if the letter is 7 not in there then how can I get a copy of the letter. 8 Q: Right. That -- which e-mail are you 9 looking at now? 10 A: H -- I said had it -- you asked me what -- 11 "2) Who can I escalate this to get this 12 resolved?" 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: I was just wondering how do I check my 15 employee file and if that letter's not in there or I can't 16 provide that letter, then -- then what do I do. 17 Q: You're asking who. So you're looking 18 for -- 19 A: Janis. 20 Q: -- someone else? 21 A: Janis. 22 Q: Well, you s -- no, but you say who I can 23 escalate this to. So you're asking -- 24 A: Well, if she -- 25 Q: -- Janis who --

1 A: If she -- she's saying that she's not 2 going to help me, that I should go to my employee file to get 3 this information and help myself and I'm saying, well, if I 4 go to my employee file and the letter's not there, then who 5 do I go to? 6 Q: Okay, so 7 A: Because she's not -- she's saying well, 8 you can check your file. 9 Q: Did you have an issue with that, the fact 10 that she told you to check your own file? 11 A: No, I think I asked her, who do I call and 12 she gave me a name. 13 Q: Okay. At the top of that page, you ask 14 her a different question. 15 You ask her: 16 "What is the compensation for years of 17 services when being terminated, is it two 18 (2) or four (4) weeks a year?" 19 A: Yes. I put those numbers in, yes. 20 Q: Right, you were looking for some 21 information from her as to what would happen if you were -- 22 your employment was terminated with the City? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And why were you looking for that 25 information?

1 A: At the time, after meeting with Kathryn, I 2 started -- she was saying, you know, your job's -- she was 3 speaking out of both sides of her mouth, for lack of better 4 word, that your supervisor position has ended, but will be 5 trained and I have a responsibility to my son and I wanted to 6 see what would happen, I had to have a safety net, and I 7 needed to make sure all the bases were covered for myself. 8 Q: And so one (1) of the bases that you 9 wanted to cover was knowing how much money you'd be entitled 10 to if the City terminated you, right? 11 A: No, I think you should have all the 12 answers to your questions and I wanted know what was the 13 compensation, yes, that's what I was asking. 14 Q: Right, so one (1) of the features of your 15 safety net, would be to know how much money you were entitled 16 to if your employment was terminated, is that fair? 17 A: That was a question that I had at that 18 time. 19 Q: Right. 20 A: And what's the compensation of years of 21 service, just because I just wanted to know what the policy 22 was. 23 Q: Right. And I take it there are other 24 features to your safety net, not just knowing how much money 25 you might be entitled to, there are other things you'd want

1 to do in order to protect your twelve (12) year old son, 2 right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And -- okay -- and those kinds of things 5 might be looking for a job? 6 A: If you don't have one (1), yes. 7 Q: Right. Taking the initiative to look for 8 work? 9 A: Or the initiative to confirm whether you 10 have a job, or not. 11 Q: Right, okay, so one (1) of the pieces of 12 your safety net, one (1) of the features of your safety net 13 is to try and find out -- 14 A: Whether I have a job -- 15 Q: -- what your job status was? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: Okay, can you turn to Tab 6 of that same 18 Volume, Volume III, and before I forget the Begdoc number for 19 Tab 5 of Volume III was 62838. 20 And if you go to Tab 6, the -- Begdoc 62846. 21 The -- this is an e-mail -- the first e-mail is dated 22 November 14th, the one (1) at the top, you see that? 23 A: What number are we at? 24 Q: Tab 6 of that same Volume III. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: This is like 62848 -- but it might -- 4 Q: It's really hard to read -- 5 A: Paula, do you recall what happened, that 6 one (1)? 7 Q: The subject line is -- 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: It's a long, long story? 9 MS. LILY HARMER: Yes, it's a long, long story 10 that's how it starts. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. LILY HARMER: 13 Q: Tab 6, you've got that? 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: The re: line -- the subject line is re: 16 years of service, okay. 17 And this is more communication with Janis 18 David on November 14th, and there's a string that precedes 19 that date, correct? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And so this is the same -- I think there 22 may have been several replies using the same stream of 23 e-mails. You've been talking to Ms. David about your 24 employee file and your years of service. 25 And you tell Ms. David, in the middle of that

1 first page, on the 12th of November, you're talking about 2 still not being able to find the letter. You'd want to 3 escalate in HR for assistance, if you can't find it. 4 And then you say: 5 "I have been reminded on a weekly basis for 6 over the past year that my position will be 7 ending and would like to resolve this issue 8 for obvious reasons." 9 And I know you talked about this with Mr. 10 Kramer yesterday, I just want to put that in context. 11 You told Ms. David now, that you've known for 12 a long period of time that your position will be ending and 13 you want to get some issues resolved as a result, right? 14 A: I think I said I was also saying a year, 15 but, what that is, is I was getting mixed signals, you know, 16 and also -- from Kathryn saying you know, there's no leasing, 17 et cetera, but that was the position of the supervisor of 18 leasing, but not my job. 19 Q: That's what you say, you say: 20 "I've been reminded on a weekly basis that 21 my position will be ending." 22 A: Well, I had -- I had concerns, yes. 23 Q: And in fact the supervisor position of 24 leasing was ending? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And you'd been reminded about that on a 2 weekly basis, right? 3 A: Well, I was generalizing, yes, but I was 4 also on a weekly basis told, don't worry about it, you'll be 5 transitioned, but I was very worried because -- 6 Q: Yeah -- 7 A: -- but I was also reminded -- on the other 8 hand I'm told, don't worry about it, you'll be transitioned 9 for a long period of time, and after you've been told that 10 for a period of time, I guess you start to get, saying okay, 11 what's going on? I need a concrete answer. 12 Q: And you need to resolve some issues? 13 Right? 14 A: Yes. And I -- 15 Q: That's okay. I just want you to focus on 16 the words on the page -- 17 A: -- well that those -- 18 Q: -- please tell me -- 19 A: -- were taken out of, you know, and it's 20 also how I felt when I -- it's okay to focus on things like 21 that, words -- but I'm telling you why I wrote them. 22 Q: These are the words you chose to send to 23 Janis David? Right? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: And -- and you told her you'd been

1 reminded on a weekly basis? Right? For a long period of 2 time? Right? 3 A: Yes, but I didn't fill in the rest of the 4 stuff -- 5 Q: I appreciate that, but you were telling 6 her that you'd known for a long time and you'd been reminded 7 repeatedly that your position was ending? 8 A: No. I had -- I had concerns and I was 9 like told, yeah, you know, leasing was ending on one point in 10 time, but then, I was also told, don't worry about it, you'll 11 be transitioned. I had concerns, and I wasn't -- we did not 12 have the best relationship -- 13 Q: I -- I understand -- 14 A: -- Kathryn and I so -- 15 Q: -- I -- understand that you had concerns, 16 and I think you've told them -- us about them at some 17 length -- 18 A: -- okay. If you're asking me if I typed 19 those words, I did, yes. 20 Q: And you meant them when you typed them, 21 presumably? 22 A: I told you right now what I meant. 23 Q: Well, I'm not sure I have your answer, 24 but, can I take those words as -- as they read? Do they 25 speak for themselves?

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Which -- words, which 2 words Ms. Harmer, are we talking about? 3 MR. JAMES ORR: I don't know what's -- 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- I have been reminded 5 of -- 6 MS. LILY HARMER: -- oh, that one, okay. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- what she said, she said 8 that she was generalizing on the, reminded on a weekly basis. 9 But she did say that there was a discussion on a weekly basis 10 about the -- the transition stuff. 11 MS. LILY HARMER: I -- I guess -- 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Orr, is there -- was 13 there something further -- in this matter -- 14 MR. JAMES ORR: -- well, I was just going say, 15 we seem to be retilling the same soil and giving the -- 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- but that's coming from 17 Ms. Leggieri not -- 18 MR. JAMES ORR: -- well -- 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- not from Ms. Harmer -- 20 MR. JAMES ORR: -- and these are the same 21 e-mails, the same as yesterday, and -- but, you know, just in 22 the interest of moving along. 23 MS. LILY HARMER: I will certainly do my best 24 to do that, Madam Commissioner. Yesterday, Mr. Kramer, spent 25 some time talking about the over a -- over the past year

1 period, and -- 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes. 3 MS. LILY HARMER: -- with that evidence Ms. 4 Leggieri indicated that she'd been speaking generally and it 5 really wasn't over the past year. What's she now telling me 6 is that she's speaking generally about having been -- 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes. 8 MS. LILY HARMER: -- reminded on a weekly -- 9 THE WITNESS: I mean the whole thing. The 10 whole -- I was just very flowery in the way I speak. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. LILY HARMER: 13 Q: 'Flowery'? So you exaggerated? 14 A: No. I was just -- I was -- yeah, I was 15 upset, confused. I was just saying, I've been reminded on a 16 weekly basis over the past year. I've been told, as I said, 17 numerous times that, you know, the writings on the wall, the 18 leasing position's over, but then I've also been told I would 19 be transitioned. 20 Q: Right. 21 A: In fact, I did transition, and that's -- I 22 was very confused. 23 Q: So are you telling us then that your 24 confusion led you not to be terribly careful in the words 25 that you chose to send to this person in HR?

1 A: I should've been more careful and filled 2 in the whole story. 3 Q: Then if we look above that? What Ms. 4 David says is, she wants to know what you mean, your position 5 will be ending? She sends you that question back? Do you 6 see that? 7 A: Yeah, and this is in November, but she 8 knew in September that that position is going to be ending, 9 but yes, she was asking me. 10 Q: I don't have any information about that. 11 What you're saying is, that somehow you have information that 12 Ms. David was aware that your position was going to be 13 ending? 14 A: Well, her name is on the staff report in 15 September, and that's what I found through this, and I'm just 16 saying that. Yes. She asked me, what do I mean my -- by my 17 position will be ending. She wanted to know what I meant by 18 that. 19 Q: Had you identified your position to Ms. 20 David at that point? I don't see that in the -- 21 A: -- she knows my position. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: She doesn't? 24 Q: I'm wondering if -- 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Leggieri, if you

1 could help me -- help me with this? What I hear you to be 2 saying, and I just want to make sure that I've got it right, 3 is that when Ms. David, says here: 4 "what do you mean your position will be 5 ending?" 6 THE WITNESS: That's right. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You assumed that she must 8 have known that your position was ending because her name was 9 on that staff report? Yes? 10 THE WITNESS: And now I'm looking at the Staff 11 Report, and her name's on there, and she's the HR Consultant. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right? 13 THE WITNESS: So. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And this staff report, 15 was your name on the Staff Report as someone who would be -- 16 THE WITNESS: -- my position. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Your position. 18 THE WITNESS: Ye