1 2 3 TORONTO COMPUTER LEASING INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE MADAM JUSTICE DENISE BELLAMY, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: East York Civic Centre 17 850 Coxwell Avenue 18 Toronto, Ontario 19 M4C 5R1 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 January 30th, 2003 25

2
  1                        APPEARANCES
  2  Ronald Manes            )Commission Counsel 
  3  Patrick Moore  (np)     )
  4  Daina Groskaufmanis     ) 
  5  Linda Rothstein         )City of Toronto 
  6  Lily Harmer    (np)     )
  7  Robert Centa            )
  8  Gordon Capern  (np)     )
  9  David Moore    (np)     )MFP 
 10  Fraser Berrill (np)     ) 
 11  Ken Jones               ) 
 12  Brian Heller   (np)     )Ball Hsu and Associates Ltd.
 13  Melissa Kronick (np)    )CUPE 
 14  Raj Anand (np)          )Lana Viinamae
 15  Bay Ryley               )
 16  William Anderson        )Wanda Liczyk
 17  Valerie Dyer   (np)     )Dell Computers
 18  Jennifer Lynch (np)     )
 19  Edward Greenspan (np)   )Jeff Lyons
 20  Todd White (np)         )
 21  Hugh MacKenzie          )Jim Andrew
 22  Paul Cavalluzzo         )Dash Domi
 23  Benjamin Barnes (np)    )
 24  
 25  Joyce Ihamaki           )Registrar

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 4 Exhibits 4 5 DASH DOMI, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-in-Chief 7 by Mr. Ronald Manes 5 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Bay Ryley 83 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Hugh MacKenzie 134 10 11 Certificate of Transcript 213 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 14 VOLUME 2 Bound document titled 80 4 "Dash Domi Documents" 5 Additional Tabs 86 - 87 6 7 14 VOLUME 2 Bound document titled 150 8 "Dash Domi Documents" 9 Addition Tab 88 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 10:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: The Inquiry is now in 4 session. Please be seated. 5 6 DASHNOR DOMI, Resumed: 7 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Good morning. 9 MR. RONALD MANES: Good morning, Commissioner. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Good morning. 11 12 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. RONALD MANES: 13 Q: Mr. Domi, good morning. 14 A: Morning. 15 Q: The last expense items that we're going to 16 review, are expenses relating to Jim Andrew. 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: Now, I'm not going to review with you Tab 19 129 in Volume 2, which is the Henry Birk's and Sons purchase 20 of the pen. 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: We've already gone through that. And I'm 23 therefore going to limit my review with you to Volume 1 of 24 your expenses, so that's what you should put in front of you. 25 A: Okay.

1 Q: And the first one (1) is at Tab 33. Now, 2 Tab 33 is Begdoc 25618, and it is a receipt from Ferro on St. 3 Clair, in the amount of sixty seven dollars and twenty eight 4 cents ($67.28). 5 That would be December -- I'm sorry, it would 6 be April 20th, 1999. And that's your signature as the 7 cardholder? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. Now, there are names -- 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: -- or writing. Is that all of your 12 handwriting? 13 A: Yes, I believe so. 14 Q: All right. Before you identify it as 15 being all -- there is something -- there is handwriting that 16 says N B. 17 A: Yeah. I'm just looking at that, 18 actually. 19 Q: Is that your handwriting? D -- can you 20 tell? 21 A: You know, I just can not tell. I mean it 22 -- 23 Q: It may be something that -- that they put 24 on there as part of the transaction record but -- 25 A: I don't know if -- on the original

1 receipt maybe -- I don't know. 2 Q: There's a twenty-two (22) to the left of 3 that. 4 A: Yes, I s -- 5 Q: Is that -- 6 A: -- see that. 7 Q: Do you know what that is? 8 A: No, I do not. 9 Q: All right. Let's go to the -- to the 10 written entries to the right. City of -- City of Toronto, 11 City TO? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And underneath that, what is that name? 14 A: It looks like Vince. 15 Q: All right and -- 16 A: And Jim. 17 Q: -- next? Jim. Now, would that be Jim 18 Andrew? 19 A: I don't believe so. 20 Q: You don't believe that is Jim Andrew? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. How would you recollect that that 23 would not be Jim Andrew? 24 A: I just don't believe I've ever went to 25 Ferro with Jim Andrew or met him there for any reason.

1 Q: Well, perhaps you were discussing City of 2 Toronto business and in particular, Jim Andrew with -- with 3 Mr. Nigro? Is that a possibility? 4 A: It's very possible, yes. 5 Q: All right and if you were doing that, 6 then in accordance with -- with your general practice, you 7 would put the person's name you were discussing at the City, 8 in this particular case Jim Andrew? 9 A: I may have done that in this case, but 10 I'm not positive it is. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: I know several Jims, so. 13 Q: Do you know any other Jim that relates to 14 the City of Toronto? 15 A: No, I do not. 16 Q: All right. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Number 41 from the same volume and I'll 21 continue only in this volume. Number 41 -- Tab 41. That's 22 Begdoc 26018. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: And as well, we should do these together. 25 Number 42, Begdoc 26026 and those are receipts relating to

1 the Platinum Club and J.J. Muggs on April the 30th, 1999. 2 Now, I've already examined you on this and 3 your evidence was, as I recollect, that you do recall that -- 4 well, first of all we better, for the record, on Begdoc 26026 5 you have this entry: 6 "City of Toronto, Tom Jakobek, Jim Andrew 7 and Wanda Liczyk" 8 And the same on Begdoc number 41 -- I mean Beg 9 -- Tab 41, Begdoc 26018 and about those, you said that you 10 recall that Wanda, Jim and Tom were at a hockey game 11 together, but you could not remember whether this was the 12 one? 13 A: I -- I think this was the one. This was 14 in -- hmm -- in April '99, it seems. 15 Q: April 30th, 1999. 16 A: I believe that they were at a game 17 together, yes, in '99 prior to me doing business with the 18 City. 19 Q: All right. Do you believe this was the 20 one? 21 A: I -- I'm not positive but I -- I -- it 22 must be if they're -- 23 Q: Well, let's ask the question this way. 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: Was there any other game or was there

1 more than one (1) game where Ms. Liczyk and Mr. Andrew and 2 Mr. Jakobek were at a hockey game together and attended the 3 Platinum Club? 4 A: I -- I don't -- no, I don't believe so 5 but there was -- I'll answer like this. In our box, there 6 was occasions when they had been in and out of the box, for 7 sure as guests or as guests of somebody else's or -- but -- 8 it's like a revolving door in our box so -- 9 Q: So, whether or not it appears on your 10 expense report, it's possible that in the comings and goings 11 of the box, that Mr. Andrew, Ms. Liczyk and Mr. Jakobek, were 12 at other -- at other games? 13 A: Very possible, yes. 14 Q: All right. Number 51, Tab 51 and that's 15 Begdoc 25626, now in our -- Commissioner, in our summary 16 here, it is the wrong Begdoc number. 17 But, this in any event, Tab 51 is a receipt 18 dated May 21st, 1999. See that in the upper right-hand 19 corner. It's hard to read. Right beneath the handwriting on 20 the front page, Mr. Domi. 21 A: Yes -- 22 Q: Oh, you do -- 23 A: -- I thought you were talking -- okay -- 24 Q: All right. Sorry, I was talking to you as 25 well.

1 A: Okay. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: I see it yes. 4 Q: And this is at 12:56? 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: Just right below that you'll see that, 7 just celebrating the fact that we can actually read one (1) 8 of these. 9 And it's the amount of a hundred and twenty 10 five dollars and ten cents ($125.10) at Al Frisco's. Now, 11 there's a little thank you note from the waiter on the front 12 page. 13 Go to the second page, now, there is 14 handwriting on that second page of the receipt, can you tell 15 us what the names are -- appear on that second page? 16 A: It says Jim, Rob, City deal. 17 Q: Now, when you say Jim, just to read it 18 accurately, it's Rob Wilkinson? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: The first name. Jim Andrew the second 21 name and City TO, the first name -- 22 A: Yes -- 23 Q: -- the third name? 24 A: -- yes. 25 Q: Now, May 21st is ten (10) days before the

1 RFQ from the City is issued, if that helps you any in respect 2 to this particular discussion. 3 Do you remember meeting with Mr. Wilkinson 4 from you company with Mr. Andrew about City of Toronto 5 business, May 21st, 1999 at Al Frisco's? 6 A: Well, I think we -- we well I'll tell you. 7 I'll answer you like this, I guess. I recall being at ll 8 Frisco more than once with Rob and Jim, once or twice. And I 9 believe this was one (1) of the times. Just general chatter, 10 I guess, as usual. 11 Q: Well, let's take it one (1) at a time, and 12 in particular, this one (1). 13 A: Okay. 14 Q: See if we can have an appreciation of the 15 discussion. Now, the context that I put to you, not 16 necessarily the context of the discussion, was that 17 ultimately the RFQ was issued by the City on May 31st, 1999. 18 Do you recall whether this meeting had 19 anything to do, firstly, with leasing IT at the City? 20 A: I don't know, Mr. Manes, I mean I'm sure 21 we discussed business somehow with Mr. Andrew -- 22 Q: Now -- 23 A: -- which is the capacity for Rob to be 24 there. I mean, I -- I talked to Rob about this so that's how 25 I -- I know.

1 Q: That you talked to Rob and that refreshed 2 y -- whatever recollection you had? 3 A: I just asked if -- about Al Frisco and 4 yes. 5 Q: What did Rob say? 6 A: He said that he recalled going there with 7 Mr. Andrew. 8 Q: And did he recall who had arranged that 9 -- looks like a lunch? 10 A: I probably did. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: I'm sure I did. 13 Q: In your discussion with -- with Mr. 14 Wilkinson, did he recall what the meeting was about? 15 A: I -- I'm sure it was regarding business. 16 Q: Yes, I appreciate that but did he -- do 17 you recall what kind of business? 18 A: He wasn't really specific. I'm sure it 19 was regarding to some capacity. 20 Q: Mr. Andrew was the -- 21 A: CIO. 22 Q: -- Executive Director -- 23 A: Right. 24 Q: -- of IT at the City and your company was 25 interested in per se -- persuading the City --

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- to lease its IT from MFP? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. So it would be f -- fair to 5 conclude from that that it's -- it's likely that the 6 discussion surrounded leasing IT through MFP? 7 A: Well, just leasing of IT, for sure. 8 Q: Well -- 9 A: It's our job to win, really but I'm sure 10 we're talking about leasing for sure. That's -- Rob's the 11 expert. 12 Q: It's -- it has some significance that you 13 brought Rob along because he is an expert in -- in leasing 14 and an expert in IT and certainly -- 15 A: I don't know about IT but I -- he's an 16 expert in leasing, that's for sure. 17 Q: Let me put it better to you. You would 18 consider him an expert in leasing of IT? 19 A: Technology leasing, yes. 20 Q: And it would be significant that you 21 brought him along for this meeting? 22 A: Yeah, we looked very closely together 23 throughout. 24 Q: Was there any discussion of the upcoming 25 RFQ? Leasing RFQ at the City?

1 A: We may have had that discussion, yes. 2 Q: Do you remember any of th -- the detail 3 of that discussion? For example, was there any discussion as 4 to when the City was finally going to issue this RFQ? 5 A: I don't -- I don't recall, Mr. Manes, I'm 6 not sure. 7 Q: Is it possible there was such a 8 discussion and you just don't recall it? 9 A: It -- it's possible. 10 Q: You wouldn't feel any reluctance about 11 having discussion with Mr. Andrew about an upcoming RFQ, 12 would you? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. There's no prohibition in -- 15 in -- in that? 16 A: Well, in the m -- not in -- as far as I 17 was concerned, anyway. 18 Q: All right. From my understanding of your 19 evidence and other evidence, it was no secret that the City 20 was going to require a large amount of technology, was 21 considering leasing, and considering other -- issuing a -- a 22 leasing RFQ? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Do you have any idea, I can't tell by the 25 receipt, would you have any idea how long that discussion

1 lasted? 2 A: No. I don't know how long it would have 3 been. 4 Q: The s -- 5 A: I don't think it would have been very 6 long but -- because Al Frisco is about a block and a half 7 away from Metro Hall, so. 8 Q: Looks like the -- the -- th -- the 9 authorization time is 12:59 or almost one (1) o'clock p.m. -- 10 I'm going on the second page, here. 11 A: Okay. Yeah, I'm looking at that, too. 12 Q: I can't tell from this what was cons -- 13 consumed there but -- I don't know if anybody else can -- 14 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: It's on the first page. 15 MR. RONALD MANES: -- but, I still can't tell, 16 it's upside down, number one (1) on mine with -- 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: What are you looking for, 18 Mr. Manes? 19 MR. RONALD MANES: I'm just looking -- on page 20 -- on page 2 of -- 21 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: Page one (1) -- 22 MR. RONALD MANES: -- page one (1), rather -- 23 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Shrimp and souvlaki -- 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: What are you looking for? 25 MR. RONALD MANES: We're looking for what was

1 consumed, what was eaten -- 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Oh -- 3 MR. RONALD MANES: -- or drink -- drunk, and 4 this is page one (1) and it -- 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: One and a half angry 6 shrimp. 7 MR. RONALD MANES: And souvlaki platter and 8 coffee, et cetera -- 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Two tales, two (2) 10 chocolates, one (1) large Evian, I assume, one (1) coffee, 11 one (1) -- I don't know what those say. One (1) glass of 12 Jenard -- it looks like four (4) glasses of wine, I think, 13 but, I'm not sure. 14 One (1) glass Jenard - J-E-N-A-R-D. 15 MR. WILLIAM ANDERSON: Merlot -- 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- Merlot -- and three 17 (3) glasses of Desmond coast. 18 MR. WILLIAM ANDERSON: I got that from Linda. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: From our drinking expert 20 here. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't see this anywhere here. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: On the very first page. 23 MR. RONALD MANES: It's on the very first 24 page. 25 THE WITNESS: I can't --

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I don't think you're on 2 the first page. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm not? Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. 4 Thank you. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 7 Q: Now, let me just refer to another document 8 that we have which is Mr. Andrew's calendar and read what he 9 has to say, at least that this was booked. 10 This is Begdoc 13451 -- 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: 13451? 12 MR. RONALD MANES: 13451. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 16 Q: Tab 30, Dash Domi documents, Volume 2. 17 And I can just read this to you if you want, if you look at 18 -- this is the notation in Mr. Andrew -- 19 A: I don't have that, I guess, do I? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: That would be in Volume 2 of Dash Domi 24 documents. 25 A: Okay. Thank you.

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Now, let me just identify this for the 4 record. Of course, you didn't make this entry, but this may 5 assist your recollection according to the entry in Mr. 6 Andrew's calendar, Dash Domi, meet you at City Hall for early 7 lunch, date, Friday, May 21st, 1999, time 11:30 a.m. to 1:30 8 p.m., subject Dash Domi, meet you at Metro Hall for early 9 lunch. 10 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: With the greatest of 11 respect to My Friend, that only reflects one (1) entry. 12 There is an entry below that, that is also of importance, 13 that says: 14 "11:30 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. CSMT 15th 15 Commissioners." 16 Which my understanding is, that that was a 17 meeting that the Commissioner had that Mr. Andrew attended 18 that day, as well. 19 So, it's not quite as clear, at least in Mr. 20 Andrew's mind that he was at that lunch. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, let's -- I think, 22 all Mr. Manes, as I understand it, is trying to do is to say, 23 here's something from Mr. Andrews calendar, will that -- does 24 that assist you at all? 25 And he hasn't put to him anything else and I

1 don't see anything else in Tab 30 -- 2 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: That's because he's -- 3 they've simply put down one (1) line from one (1) page. 4 There are several other entries on that page. And I don't 5 think it's appropriate to just put one (1) line down, the 6 line that -- 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. MacKenzie, I'm not 8 disagreeing with you. What I'm saying is there is nothing 9 else on this page that we have. 10 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: I appreciate that. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: So, maybe somebody can 12 let me know if there's something else that we should be 13 putting to Mr. Domi. Or if there is -- Ms. Groskaufmanis, 14 do we have this? 15 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: The only thing I can 16 help you with, is perhaps Mr. MacKenzie, may also help. I 17 understand the City has recently provided to Mr. MacKenzie, 18 Mr. Andrews' complete calendar. 19 What we had was searches of Mr. Andrew's 20 calendar over a period of time for certain words. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I see. 22 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: We never received 23 the entire calendar. I understand Mr. MacKenzie only 24 received that very recently, as well. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay.

1 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: So I -- I expect 2 that that may be the document from which Mr. MacKenzie is 3 referring. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Does that help you, Mr. 5 MacKenzie? 6 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: I -- I -- 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I guess when Commission 8 Counsel made the request for documents from parties with 9 standing, what we -- what we received at that time, when Mr. 10 Andrew did not have standing so the documents that we 11 received were from the City, and at that time, they would jus 12 -- they just did searches -- 13 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: Yeah. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- words like MFP or 15 Dash Domi -- 16 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: Sure. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- or Rob Wilkinson or 18 Rob Ashbourne or something like that. 19 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: I -- I appreciate that. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: We don't have what you 21 have. 22 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: I -- I received these 23 documents from the City on the 24th -- 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Of January? 25 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: -- of -- of January,

1 yes. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 3 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: I made them available to 4 Commission Counsel on the 24th -- 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 6 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: -- and this -- the 7 documents that we're looking at now, in which this particular 8 entry is found was received, I believe, the day before 9 yesterday. So with the greatest respect -- 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: It's the -- 11 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: -- there's sufficient 12 time -- 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: That's not -- I don't 14 think that's possible, Mr. MacKenzie, because this document 15 already has a Begdoc number. 16 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: Okay. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- and -- 18 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: Okay. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- they -- that process 20 is a slow one, I can assure you. 21 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: I can imagine it is. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: So what does -- Ms. 23 Groskaufmanis, do we have the document that Mr. MacKenzie is 24 referring to that can be put to the witness? 25 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: I -- I don't

1 believe we have it. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: We don't have it. So 3 maybe, Mr. Manes, -- 4 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Commissioner? 5 MR. ROBERT CENTA: Commissioner? 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- if Mr. -- 7 MR. ROBERT CENTA: The City spoke with Mr. 8 Andrew's Counsel this morning and we've now reached an 9 agreement that the calendar can -- 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Just hang on. Mr. Manes 11 and Mr. MacKenzie -- the -- you're -- you're -- Mr. 12 MacKenzie, you're being spoken about so you might want to 13 hear this. 14 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: My apologies. 15 MR. RONALD MANES: This is not a place where 16 I need that. 17 MR. ROBERT CENTA: The City and Mr. Andrew's 18 Counsel spoke this morning and we've now agreed that there's 19 nothing in the calendar that needs to be redacted for 20 personal be -- because the entries would of a strictly 21 personal nature. 22 The material will now be sent to Mr. Platt for 23 coding and entry into the database and then we'll make copies 24 available to Commission Counsel if they don't already have 25 one.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. All right. So 2 Mr. MacKenzie do you want to wait then until -- until you 3 cross-examine, or do you want to give Mr. Manes whatever it 4 was that you had and -- 5 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: I -- I've provided it to 6 Mr. Manes, now. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Just now? 8 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: I'm perfectly happy with 9 -- if Mr. W -- Manes wants to deal with it now or deal with 10 it later. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, I -- I don't 12 actually know what it says, so I'll leave it up to Mr. Manes. 13 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, I -- I'm perfectly 14 happy to -- to read what it says here and then ask Mr. 15 MacKenzie whether he has information that his client, Mr. 16 Andrew, will testify that he didn't meet with Mr. Domi for 17 lunch on this day, which is really the only -- only issue 18 here. 19 There is another entry that says: 20 "11:30 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. CSMT. 15th 21 Commissioners" 22 And it's under -- it has a private flag under 23 it. So on the face of it, there would be conflicting 24 appointments, both beginning at 11:30 a.m. One with Mr. Domi 25 to meet him at Metro Hall for an early lunch and one with

1 CSMT. 2 Now, I wasn't there -- Mr. Domi and Mr. Andrew 3 may have been there. If I just might have a moment? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. RONALD MANES: Now, Commissioner, I'm 8 advised that when Mr. Andrew is called to testify, he will 9 say that he did not attend this early lunch. That he, in 10 fact, attended the other meeting at CMST. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 13 Q: Now, Mr. Domi, just -- we have the 14 following contradiction. We have on this slip an attendance, 15 Mr. Wilkinson, yourself, Mr. Andrew at Al Frisco's. A 16 discussion with Mr. Wilkinson that you've already related to 17 us about this -- this attendance, your evidence and now we're 18 told that Mr. Andrew will say he didn't go to this meeting. 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: Now and -- 21 A: So, he's never had lunch with me, is that 22 what he's saying? 23 Q: On this particular occasion, where there 24 is those conflicting entries -- 25 A: Okay --

1 Q: -- Mr. Andrew is saying, he wasn't there. 2 He was at another meeting. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I didn't take it Mr. 4 Domi, that Mr. Andrew would be saying that he never had lunch 5 with you. But on this day, where he has two (2) conflicts in 6 his calendar, that when he's called to testify that he is 7 going to say, that he chose the other meeting. 8 THE WITNESS: So, Commissioner, I'm sorry, 9 like so he was in this meeting, and he never went for lunch, 10 is that what he's saying? 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think -- 12 THE WITNESS: On this day? 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- on that day. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, okay. I disagree. 15 MR. RONALD MANES: All right. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Mr. Manes? 17 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 20 Q: Now, is there anything else that you can 21 recall, other than what you've testified, including 22 discussions with Mr. Wilkinson, that would assist Mr. Andrew 23 in recollecting whether or not he was at this meeting? 24 A: Not that I can really think of, Mr. Manes. 25 I mean Rob can be asked the same question.

1 Q: All right. Now, you said that this was 2 not the only meeting or -- the only meeting with Mr. Andrew 3 and Mr. Wilkinson that you had at Al Frisco's to your -- 4 A: I don't believe -- I don't believe it was 5 the only meeting we ever had there. 6 Q: All right. Assuming there was another 7 meeting -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- let's take them one (1) at a time, do 10 you recall whether that meeting was after this May 21st, 1999 11 meeting? 12 A: I'm sorry, I don't know. Probably was 13 after that, but I don't know. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: That wasn't a trick question. I just 18 checked with Ms. Groskaufmanis. Let me take you to Tab 65. 19 That's Begdoc 25706. 20 That is a receipt from Al Frisco's dated June 21 18th, 1999. But this time is 23:17, almost 12:00 midnight, 22 on the receipt. And it's for two hundred and twenty two 23 dollars and forty eight cents ($222.48). 24 Now, there is writing on the top, City TO -- 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: -- Jim Andrew, Rob W. -- I take it that's 2 Rob Wilkinson? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Is it possible that this is another 5 meeting that you had with Mr. Wilkinson and -- with Mr. 6 Wilkinson and Mr. Andrew, to which you're referring when you 7 said you had more than one (1) meeting? 8 A: I don't know if this was -- I don't think 9 this was the actual one (1). Let me clarify that. Rob and I 10 have been there many times, at Al Frisco. And I recall being 11 there with Jim Andrew, also. 12 But I'm not clear if this was -- I don't think 13 this was one (1) that -- but, I just can't remember. I don't 14 think it was when Jim Andrew was with us. 15 Q: Do you have a specific recollection that 16 it was not? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: It's possible that Mr. Andrew was present, 19 it's possible that you were just talking about him? 20 A: It's possible that we were just -- yes. 21 Q: Just talking about him? 22 A: Or what -- I just don't know. Actually, I 23 just can't remember. 24 Q: So, to answer my question, it's possible 25 that he was present, on the other hand, it's possible that

1 you were just talking about him? 2 A: I -- I don't think in that period that we 3 were -- had seen each other. I think this was in the 4 supposed black-out period that everyone always talks about. 5 Q: Well, yes it -- it may or may not be but 6 I -- I'm asking for your specific recollection -- 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: -- not whether it was a black-out period 9 -- 10 A: I -- I -- I -- I -- I'm not clear, Mr. 11 Manes. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: To give you a clear answer. 14 Q: Is it -- is it possible that Mr. Andrew 15 was present at that -- at Al Frisco's on June 18th, 1999? 16 A: I don't know at that time if he was. 17 Q: Is it possible that you and Mr. Wilkinson 18 were talking about Mr. Andrew on that date? 19 A: It's possible, yes. 20 Q: At Al Frisco's? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Is it possible that you were not talking 23 about Mr. Andrew at Al Frisco's on that date? 24 A: Probably not, no. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Did you -- you said you had a discussion 4 with Mr. Andrew about the -- the other Al Frisco's entry, May 5 21st, 1999, which we've already been through at some length. 6 A: I had a discussion, I'm sorry, with? 7 Q: With Mr. Wilkinson about -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- the May 21st, 1999 Al Frisco's lunch. 10 Did you have a discussion with Mr. Wilkinson about the June 11 18th, 1999 Al -- Al Frisco's lun -- or dinner? 12 A: Actually, I don't believe I -- I don't 13 know if I did. I may have. 14 Q: In your -- the receipts that you signed, 15 can we be relatively confident that when you put down Mr. 16 Wilkinson's name, that Mr. Wilkinson would be physically 17 present? 18 A: I -- I'd say, yes. 19 Q: All right. Can I take you then back to 20 Tab 59. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Tab 59 is -- is Begdoc 25692 and that's 25 Il Posto Nuovo in Yorkville, eighty-five dollars and ten

1 cents ($85.10), June the 8th, 1999, and c -- I -- this -- 2 above it -- the word Il Posto Nuovo is City of Toronto, TO, 3 th -- is that your handwriting? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. Now there's nothing on here 6 that would indicate who you were with on that -- on that 7 date, other than there's a City of Toronto notation, correct? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: Let -- let me just take you to your 10 expense reports and then you can e -- you can explain this to 11 the Commissioner. Volume 4 of Dash Domi expenses at Tab 16. 12 So Mr. Domi, take Volume 4 of your expenses, 13 go to Tab 16 and you'll see your expense report for the month 14 of June 1999. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then if you go down -- 17 A: Just a second. 18 Q: -- you see the entry, C of Toronto, this 19 is about four (4) down -- 20 A: Yes -- 21 Q: -- J. Andrews, eighty-five dollars and ten 22 cents ($85.10), exactly the amount of ll Posto, June the 8th, 23 1999. 24 A: Okay. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: It also has the two

1 hundred and twenty-eight forty-eight (228.48) at the very 2 bottom going to City of Toronto, J. Andrews, and R. 3 Wilkinson, the one (1) you've just dealt with. 4 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. Thank you, 5 Commissioner. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 8 Q: Right at the bottom. See that Mr. Domi? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now, the bottom one (1), two twenty two -- 11 two hundred and twenty two forty eight (222.48), would have 12 been taken from your slip, but this City of Toronto ll Posto 13 entry for eighty-five dollars and ten cents ($85.10), there 14 is nothing on the slip to indicate that it's Mr. Andrews. 15 There is something on your slip to indicate 16 that this was -- the client was City of Toronto. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Now, would you have -- would this expense 19 report, consistent with your pattern, have been completed by 20 Mr. Pessione? 21 A: I believe so, yes. 22 Q: And this would have been and was approved 23 by yourself, lower lefthand corner, or signed by yourself? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. Would you have told Mr.

1 Pessione that you entertained Mr. J. Andrews at ll Posto for 2 eighty-five dollars and ten cents ($85.10), on -- in respect 3 to that entry? 4 A: I don't know if I would have done that. 5 Well, I probably -- I don't know. I don't think at that 6 point, I knew that many people perhaps, that's what -- I 7 don't know. 8 Q: Well, is it -- is it possible that you 9 told Mr. Pessione that you had entertained Mr. Andrews on 10 that day, but simply didn't put it on the slip after you gave 11 him a slip simply with City of Toronto on it? 12 A: I don't know, Mr. Manes, if I would have 13 done that. 14 Q: You notice -- 15 A: It's possible, I guess, anything is 16 possible. 17 Q: All right. 18 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Commissioner, I wonder 19 if I might interject, just for some clarification as to the 20 document -- documents gathering, because I wasn't here at the 21 time. 22 This is the second or third occasion upon 23 which I have noticed that in respect of a particular 24 restaurant like ll Posto, there are different forms, if we 25 can call them that.

1 If you look at Tab 59, which we are looking at 2 now, you will see that the expense slip is -- indicates what 3 is consumed. 4 And if you look at Tab 64, which is another ll 5 Posto receipt, you will see it's another page, which just 6 indicates the amount of the billing. 7 So, it indicates to me, that in many of these 8 restaurants, there are two (2) or three (3) pages, and 9 sometimes we have one (1) page, sometimes we have them all 10 and sometimes we don't have them. 11 And I'm just wondering, since I wasn't here at 12 the time of the document gathering, whether this is all the 13 Commission has, or -- or whether this is a discretionary 14 decision by the Commission as to what to put in. 15 I just don't know and I just want to seek that 16 clarification. 17 Thank you. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Groskaufmanis? 19 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: Commissioner, I 20 think I can answer that for Mr. Cavalluzzo. 21 This is the form in which the expense reports 22 and expense documents were provided to us by MFP. We've 23 since been provided with the originals and this is the form 24 in which Mr. Domi submitted his expenses. 25 So, there was no discretion, no receipts were

1 removed. No receipts were -- where there was some decision 2 made to include one (1) and not another. 3 This is simply the form in which Mr. Domi 4 submitted -- appears to have submitted his expense report to 5 his employer. 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Does that answer your -- 7 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Yes, it does. 8 Thank you. 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I can't explain 10 restaurant policy, so I can't help you with that one. 11 All right. 12 MR. RONALD MANES: Just from my own 13 experience, you don't need to take ju -- judicial notice of 14 this, if that's correct in the -- in a hearing, but often 15 times, in my experience, you will sign one (1) sheet -- slip 16 that simply has the total and the tip and there will be 17 another one provided that has a breakdown of -- of everything 18 that you ate, et cetera. 19 I take it that -- 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Or it could be just your 21 Visa bill, which doesn't have anything but the price and 22 that's it. 23 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. So, in any event, my 24 understanding is everything that we have on this -- 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right.

1 MR. RONALD MANES: -- is in the record. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 6 Q: Now, we just happen in -- in -- in this 7 record at Tab 59, to have again what was consumed here at Il 8 Posto Nuovo. Does that assist you -- what was consumed 9 assist you at all in recalling whether Mr. Andrew was -- was 10 there or not? 11 A: No, Mr. Manes, I don't know what -- 12 Q: All right. 13 A: -- he particularly eats or drinks so I -- 14 I don't know. 15 Q: All right. You didn't -- you don't -- I 16 mean nothing by this, but you don't know whether in your 17 entertaining of Mr. Andrew, he preferred a particular kind of 18 food or kind of drink that would assist you? 19 A: No, I wouldn't -- I wouldn't know, no. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: This does say, and I again we -- we've 24 heard this may not necessarily be accurate, this does say 25 Table 2, Guests 3 --

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- and if you look at what was consumed, 3 it looks like there was at least three (3) meals. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: C -- cap -- carp -- where there's 6 fusilli, gnocci and breast of chicken and then a carpaccio 7 sandwich as an appetizer. Does that assist your recollection 8 as to -- as to who was there? 9 A: No. It does not. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: If Mr. -- Mr. Domi, if 11 it -- if there were three (3) people there and you're 12 claiming the expense on it and let's say it was you, that's 13 one (1) person. If it's Vince, you can put Vince down or Rob 14 Wilkinson, you put him down as well. 15 If -- if there -- if you're talking about Jim 16 Andrew but there are only two (2) guests, then you can -- you 17 might put down Jim Andrew meaning that you're just talking 18 about him but if there are three (3) guests and you have you 19 and Rob and Jim, is it likely then that Jim actually was 20 there or that you and Rob and somebody else were talking 21 about Jim Andrew? 22 THE WITNESS: It may have been -- we -- there 23 -- we may have been discussing some -- I mean, I've been 24 there with -- 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: With somebody --

1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: With a third person? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. I've been there with 4 Irene many times and a few MFP folks like Rob and -- I've 5 been there with many people, Commissioner, so. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 8 Q: When -- when you were there with Mr. 9 Wilkinson or -- let's take Mr. Wilkinson, would you 10 generally, on your slips, note that Mr. Wilkinson was there? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. Ms. Payne. When you were 13 there with Ms. -- when you went out somewhere with Ms. Payne 14 and expensed that MFP would you note on the slip that Ms. 15 Payne was there? 16 A: I would say I was inconsistent, Mr. Manes 17 -- 18 Q: All right. 19 A: -- in doing that, so. 20 Q: So sometimes you would, sometimes you 21 wouldn't? When you say inconsistent? 22 A: Yeah, I was just inconsistent. 23 Q: All right. Number 73 -- Tab 73. That's 24 Begdoc 25687. This is another Posto restaurant entry, two 25 hundred and forty-six dollars and seventy-two ($246.72), July

1 28th, 1999. 2 Two hundred and forty-six dollars and 3 seventy-two cents ($246.72), it's the only page we've got. 4 Now, in the upper right-hand corner, this appears to be, see 5 the time there, Mr. Domi -- 20:48, right above the 6 handwriting? 7 A: Yes. This is 74, right? 8 Q: Yes, 73 -- 9 A: Yes, I've got it. 10 Q: All right. So, this is at 8:48 p.m., that 11 at least the receipt was authorized or the transaction was 12 authorized, see that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And underneath that, it says, 15 City of Toronto, City TO? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Jim Andrew? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. Do you recall on this date, 20 July 28th, 1999, being with Mr. Andrew at ll Posto? 21 A: I do not recall, Mr. Manes. 22 Q: Now, would it assist you, at all, if you 23 remembered that -- assume this to be true, that MFP was 24 formally decided by Council to be the winner of this RFQ the 25 day before, July 27th --

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- 1999. Does that assist you at all? If 3 it doesn't, you can tell me, but does that assist you at all, 4 in respect, to whether Mr. Andrew, was there the day after 5 that formal announcement? 6 A: I'm not certain I can clearly answer that, 7 at that point, I just can't recall in '99. 8 Q: I appreciate that -- 9 A: I'm sorry? 10 Q: -- I appreciate it's difficult to clearly 11 answer many questions about these expenses, so long ago. But 12 do you recall, for example, that after the formal 13 announcement, perhaps and I'm not saying there's any evidence 14 that we have of this, but perhaps you took Mr. Andrew to 15 dinner? 16 A: It's possible, yes. 17 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Commissioner, I'm 18 starting to have some difficulty hearing the witness. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You are? 20 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Yes, I am. He's 21 starting to drop his voice and not speak clearly into the 22 microphone. 23 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 24 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Thank you. 25 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

1 MR. RONALD MANES: I think the witness 2 responded for My Friend, it's possible. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: He said, it's possible, 4 yes. 5 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. All right. 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: If anyone else has 7 trouble hearing a witness or a lawyer or me, please let me 8 know, so that -- I don't want anyone to not be able to hear 9 at any time. All right. Thank you. 10 Mr. Manes...? 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 13 Q: Now, would it assist your recollection and 14 that possibility if you try to look back in your mind's eye 15 and see whether Ms. Payne may have -- may have been there, at 16 this July 28th, 1999, meal at ll Posto? 17 A: It's possible, we've been there many 18 times. I don't know if this was one (1) of the occasions, 19 but -- 20 Q: Have you ever been to ll Posto Nuovo with 21 Mr. Andrew and Ms. Payne? 22 A: Not that I can clearly recall. 23 Q: All right. When the announcement was 24 formally made that MFP was the winning bidder on the 1999 25 City of Toronto leasing RFQ. Was there any kind of

1 celebration at MFP? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you -- 4 A: I was definitely excited, but MFP's kind 5 of -- 6 Q: All right. 7 A: No, we're not that type of company. 8 Q: You knew Mr. Andrew, certainly, at that 9 point? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: You had -- 12 A: I sure did. 13 Q: You had, without going into any 14 controversy with the use of words, had a very cordial 15 relationship with him? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: As far as I was concerned, yes. 19 Q: Did you call Mr. Andrew and share your 20 excitement with him? 21 A: I may have done that, sure. 22 Q: All right. Remember you gave evidence a 23 few days ago about a meeting of some kind with Mr. Andrew and 24 Ms. Payne in relation to the successful bid. 25 A: Yes, I did.

1 Q: Is it -- is it possible that this was -- 2 that July 28th, 1999 was such a -- was the meeting that you 3 were referring to? 4 A: I -- I'm not sure if I can -- when 5 exactly it was, Mr. Manes, but -- 6 Q: D -- did you feel any need to reward Mr. 7 Andrew for MFP's successful bid? 8 A: No. 9 Q: All right. Did you see any need to show 10 him your appreciation by taking him out to dinner? 11 A: No, I wouldn't say that. 12 Q: I'm sorry? 13 A: No, I wouldn't say I would -- show my 14 appreciation but I would have had no problem taking him out. 15 Q: Is it possible that the July 28th, 1999 16 dinner at Il Posto Nuovo was with Mr. Andrew and yourself, at 17 least, to show him, at least, your appreciation for -- or at 18 least having a celebration with him regarding MFP's 19 successful bid? 20 A: I don't know if -- I -- I just don't 21 know. 22 Q: Number 95, Tab 95, sir. This is Begdoc 23 25871. As you can see from this receipt, it is almost 24 illegible and doesn't appear to have any -- any tip or any 25 total or any signature on it and the only handwriting appears

1 to be on the top of it. This is for Harbour Castle Steak 2 House, City of TO, Jim. 3 Now, again, we got these from MFP's records 4 and it's obvious that this was submitted by you -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- some -- and although it has no 7 signature, date. That is -- is your handwriting? City of 8 Toronto, Jim? 9 A: Yes, it looks that way. 10 Q: And would that Jim have been any other 11 person but Jim Andrew that you were referring to? 12 A: I -- I don't think so, no. 13 Q: Does it assist your recollection in that 14 regard, when you say I don't think so, that this was at 15 Harbour 60 Steak House? 16 A: I -- I'd say I've seen Jim there, yes. 17 Q: When you say you've seen Jim there, to be 18 more specific, you have invited Jim there? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And -- on more than one (1) occasion? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And if I suggest to you that there were 23 several occasions, would that be accurate? 24 A: Yeah. Yes. 25 Q: Now, are you able to put a number to

1 several occasions? Would that be more than ten (10)? 2 A: No. I don't think so. 3 Q: Between five (5) and ten (10)? Does that 4 sound -- 5 A: I don't know if that's -- well, I'm just 6 not sure, really but it's more than one (1). I -- I'd 7 invited him there many times, yes. The actual times he's 8 been there with me, I -- I don't know -- or seeing him there. 9 Q: Well, when you have entertained Mr. Andrew 10 at Harbour 60 -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- has it always, and I underlined always, 13 has it 100 percent of the time, related to a hockey game or 14 have there been occasions where it was apart from a hockey 15 game? 16 A: I'd say probably during an event, a hockey 17 game at Air Canada Centre, yes. 18 Q: When you say an event, is it possible -- 19 and hockey game at Air Canada Centre, is it possible, there 20 were other events that Mr. Andrew attended? 21 A: I don't know. I mean maybe a basketball 22 game, but I'm not sure. 23 Q: Do you recall inviting Mr. Andrew to a 24 Raptors game or games? 25 A: I'm sure I did. I invited a lot of

1 people. 2 Q: And do you recall if Mr. Andrew attended 3 Raptors games or game? 4 A: He may have, but I'm not sure. 5 Q: You used the box for the Raptors games or 6 did you have -- 7 A: I have, yes. 8 Q: Did you ever give Mr. Andrew tickets for 9 the Raptors games that were not in the box? 10 A: No, I don't believe so. 11 Q: All right. Let me take you out of Mr. 12 Andrew's context, for just a moment. I recall that we had a 13 slip and we checked it out, it appeared to be a Mariah Carey 14 concert. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Who did you attend a Mariah Carey concert 17 with? 18 A: Oh, God, I don't know. I don't know when 19 that was. 20 Q: I'll assist you with that -- 21 A: Sure -- 22 Q: -- because I don't have it right off the 23 top of my head. 24 A: -- sure. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: I'm going to get you that reference and 4 we'll provide it to your Counsel and see if you can answer -- 5 A: Is it from a date, Mariah Carey or -- 6 Q: It's -- I can't answer that at this point. 7 A: Okay, I'm sorry. 8 Q: I have it listed on my -- 9 A: Okay -- 10 Q: -- on my notes. 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: And, in fact, if you just give me a moment 13 here -- well, I'll get that after. I don't want to -- might 14 be able to get it by the -- by the break. 15 In any event, you don't -- you don't remember 16 who you attended the Mariah Carey concert with, but you 17 remember attending the concert? 18 A: God, I've been to so many events there, I 19 don't know. I've been there so many times, I just don't 20 know, really. 21 Q: Did you ever have City of Toronto staff or 22 Councillors to the box, for other than a sports event, like a 23 concert? 24 A: I believe I must have, yes. 25 Q: Now, do you remember, even if it's hard to

1 put a date to it, what events you might have -- or events you 2 might have had City staff or Councillors to, other than the, 3 you know, hockey or sports events? 4 A: I'm just trying to think -- I don't know 5 what concerts or -- I've just been to so many there, I just 6 don't know -- or games -- I just -- 7 Q: And I said, City staff or Councillors, let 8 me take them separately -- 9 A: Okay -- 10 Q: -- and in particular, Councillors. Do you 11 recall events or an event other than a sports event, that you 12 had a Councillor or Councillors to? 13 A: I do not, no. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Now, the -- the next entry is Entry 102, 18 Begdoc 25875. That's the November 11th, 1999, receipt at 19 Cafe Victoria that you've already testified to with respect 20 to Mr. Godfrey and Mr. Andrew. Now, I'm not going to go back 21 through that again. 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: All right. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 Q: I'd like to take you to the -- the 2 photocopier issue. 3 A: Okay. Do I have that here, or -- 4 Q: No, I'm just going to ask you some -- 5 A: Oh, okay. 6 Q: -- some questions. If I might just have 7 a moment. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now, what I'd -- would like to do with 12 you is proceed on the basis of what Councillor Balkissoon 13 testified to -- 14 A: Sure. 15 Q: -- and ask, I'm not going to quote him 16 but I'll summarize what he said -- 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: -- and ask if you agree or disagree. 19 Councillor Balkissoon said that after he held 20 the photocopier report -- photocopy report to Council, he 21 received a telephone call from you, Mr. Domi? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right and he says that you played 24 "telephone tag", quote unquote, for a while and eventually 25 connected?

1 A: I don't know if we played telephone tag, 2 but he did call me back, yes. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: For sure. 5 Q: And Councillor Balkissoon said that you 6 and he had a long conversation? 7 A: I don't think it was long, no, but it was 8 -- we had a conversation. 9 Q: What's you -- would you call it a short 10 conversation? Medium? 11 A: I -- well, I -- sorry, I -- let me 12 rephrase that. I don't know what -- I mean, it was probably 13 ten (10) minutes or so, maybe a little longer but it wasn't 14 -- 15 Q: All right. So -- 16 A: Okay, that -- I guess it's fairly long. 17 Q: Councillor Balkissoon said that you told 18 him that the City had an agreement with MFP, that the City 19 was bound by that agreement and that MFP and you were 20 entitled to that photocopier business. 21 Now, let's just take those and break those up 22 a bit. Did you tell him that the City had an agreement with 23 MFP? 24 A: I said we -- I believe I said we had -- 25 we're -- we're an approved vendor with the City, yes.

1 Q: My -- my question is did you say that the 2 -- the City had an agreement with MFP? 3 A: The City was doing IT, yes, in the -- in 4 the -- in the City, yes. I mean MFP, I'm sorry. 5 Q: Pursuant to an agreement? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: All right. Did you tell him that the 8 City was bound by that agreement? 9 A: No, I did not. 10 Q: Did you tell him that the City was 11 entitled to this photocopier business? 12 A: I'm sorry? 13 Q: Did you tell him that the C -- that MFP 14 was entitled to this photocopier business? 15 A: I did not say that, no. I just wouldn't 16 -- wouldn't say that. 17 Q: Did you tell Mr. -- or Councillor 18 Balkissoon, that MFP had a similar agreement with the 19 Province of Ontario, and that the infrastructure equipment 20 that was put into the City, the network, was to be leased 21 from MFP? 22 A: I did not say that. 23 Q: Did you -- let's just break those down. 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: Did you say that MFP had a similar

1 agreement with the Province, as it had with the City? 2 A: What I did tell him, I believe, is I spoke 3 to him once, was I -- I just told him about MFP and our 4 capacity in the Province just to -- I tried to tell him about 5 MFP a little bit, that's all I did. 6 I didn't say the City was bound by anything to 7 MFP, in any way. I never said that. 8 Q: All right. Mr. Balkissoon testified that 9 you said to him, during this conversation, that as the City's 10 and I'm quoting, "current leasing provider", there would be 11 an objection if somebody else -- somebody else's equipment 12 were connected to the network. Do you remember making that 13 statement? 14 A: I did not say that. I mean we're vendor 15 neutral, so I wouldn't -- I wouldn't say that. 16 Q: Well, do you remember -- 17 A: Or project neutral, we're neutral on all 18 that, so I wouldn't say that, no. 19 Q: Do you remember saying to Councillor 20 Balkissoon that you, that is MFP, was the City's current 21 leasing provider? 22 A: I told him we did leasing in the City of 23 Toronto, the Y2K, yes. 24 Q: What you're saying is you didn't say that 25 you objected to somebody else's equipment being connected to

1 the network? 2 A: Well, it just would make no sense. No, I 3 wouldn't say that. 4 Q: I take it from what he was saying, you 5 were saying was that it was you, the lease provider that had 6 to provide the equipment and had to authorize the equipment 7 that's going to be attached to the other equipment that it 8 was leasing from MFP? 9 A: I'm sorry? 10 Q: I take it what he meant in his evidence, 11 that MFP, being the current leasing provider, had to 12 authorize what equipment was attached to, or integrated with, 13 the equipment that MFP was leasing to the City? 14 A: No, I never said that. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: I have no right to say that. 17 Q: All right. Councillor Balkissoon said, 18 that if -- that he told you that if you believe that MFP had 19 a contract with the City that required the City to lease the 20 photocopiers, then you should have -- meaning you, Mr. Domi, 21 should have MFP's lawyers sue the City. 22 Do you recall any discussion like that? 23 A: No. 24 Q: All right. Was there any discussions 25 about suing the City?

1 A: Never. Like what -- no, I have no right 2 to say that. 3 Q: All right. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think it wasn't that 5 you said it, but Mr. Balkissoon said, that you should speak 6 with your lawyers, is that right, Mr. Manes? 7 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Not that you said you 9 would sue, but that he was saying, you know, if you're 10 interpreting it this way, and I think you're interpreting it 11 wrong, but if you think you're right, you should have your 12 lawyers contact the City. 13 It was sort of in that kind of a context. 14 THE WITNESS: No, Commissioner. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: So the word lawyers never 16 came up? 17 THE WITNESS: No, not that I can recall. No, 18 it wasn't -- it just wasn't like that. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 21 Q: Councillor Balkissoon testified that you 22 said that you were not going to pursue any legal action, but 23 that you were quite confident that you would win again? 24 A: What I did say was, I had -- we had no 25 issue with re-tendering. I never said anything like that. I

1 mean the City can choose to do whatever they wish. I never 2 said any of those things, so I had no problem with tendering. 3 Q: Did you say to him or convey the 4 impression to him, as far as you can recall, that you were 5 confident that you would win this tender? 6 A: I had no problem with him -- I may have 7 said something like that, but I had no problem with 8 tendering, at all, nor would I ever. 9 Q: Now, it's my understanding that 10 ultimately MFP did tender and MFP did provide the lowest bid? 11 A: I believe so, yes. 12 Q: All right. Now, was it your -- was it 13 your view at the time of that -- of your discussion with Mr. 14 Balkissoon, that MFP was -- was the exclusive provider of 15 technology to the City? 16 A: No, that actually doesn't make sense. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, what do you mean 18 by that? 19 THE WITNESS: Mean, Commissioner? 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: When you say it doesn't 21 make sense, what are you talking about? 22 THE WITNESS: Well, I mean, if I was going to 23 say exclusive provider and in the same conversation say, I 24 have no problem re-tendering, I don't know -- I would have no 25 problem, like the City chooses to do whatever they wish, so I

1 had -- I wouldn't have a problem, MFP wouldn't have a problem 2 with that. 3 So, I -- I never said that, no. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 8 Q: An area that you might be able to assist 9 us with so we can understand your -- your evidence clearly 10 about black-out periods, because we've heard different 11 evidence about it -- 12 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Commissioner, just 13 before we move onto a separate topic. Just in respect of 14 that last area of testimony in respect of Mr. Balkissoon, he 15 -- he testified prior to my receiving standing. For context 16 just for the record today, do -- Mr. Manes, could you help us 17 with the date of that conversation? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: We can certainly -- do 22 you want anything more than the date -- 23 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Yes. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- for now, because -- 25 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: No, there's another --

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- we can -- 2 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: -- yes, we can get that 3 at the break, that's fine, I just thought the record may be 4 clearer when you're reading this transcript some time from 5 now in respect of this question. 6 But the second -- 7 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: It's after the Barber 8 article, whenever the Barber article is. 9 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Okay, well we'll get 10 the date later, thank you. 11 The second question was, was the Councillor -- 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, I can 13 help -- 14 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: All right. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- I think it was May 16 the 2nd, that they -- that they had a meeting at City Council 17 and that the document was -- was discussed, and then we also 18 had a video that was introduced and played here. 19 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Okay, so that's May the 20 2nd of -- 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Of 19 -- of 2000, was 22 it? 23 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Of 2000, thank you. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: 2001. 25 MR. RONALD MANES: 2001, and it -- it may be

1 after the -- it may be the day after May the 2nd, because -- 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right, right. 3 MR. RONALD MANES: -- there's another -- 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: It was either May 2nd or 5 May 3rd -- 6 MR. RONALD MANES: -- there's -- 7 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Okay, that's fine, I 8 just wanted context for that. 9 The other question I would have in respect of 10 the Councillor's evidence, and that is whether the Councillor 11 was asked whether he has any notes of that conversation? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: Commissioner, I 16 don't believe Councillor Balkissoon was asked that question, 17 and my recollection, and we checked the transcript you can 18 see that he had that discussion on the cell phone I believe, 19 while he was driving. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: While he was driving? 21 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: That was my 22 recollection. Now, I'll double check the transcript. 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay, I don't have that 24 recollection, but I don't know if anyone asked him if he had 25 notes.

1 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Thank you. 2 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: But certainly 3 Councillor Balkissoon has produced all of the documents in 4 his possession in any way relevant to this Inquiry, to 5 Commission Counsel. They have reviewed everything that was 6 maintained in his office that had anything to do with this 7 matter. 8 MR. RONALD MANES: My recollection of our 9 interviews with Councillor Balkissoon is that -- consistent 10 with what Ms. Rothstein said, that he gave us all -- every 11 scrap of paper he had, in relation to this, and that he 12 didn't keep notes of this conversation. 13 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Thank you. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I do, in my notes it 15 does say that there was a discussion on his cell phone, 16 you're right, Ms. Groskaufmanis. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 19 Q: Now, in respect to the black-out period, 20 first of all, can you give us your understanding of what a 21 black-out period is? 22 A: Well, from what I'm told it's an 23 evaluation period. When you're responding to an RFP or an 24 RFQ, or whatever it'd be, and there's a period where, I don't 25 know what the -- my personal view is that -- well you don't

1 see people, you don't discuss anything with -- like I don't 2 know, but it's a black-out period, if -- I don't know if it's 3 zero (0) communication, perhaps that's what it is, but -- 4 Q: All right, let's take that -- that 5 understanding that it is an evaluation period. Do you know 6 whether the evaluation period begins after the RFP or RFQ is 7 issued by the City or whether it begins or it is included 8 after the response date has expired? 9 A: I'm not sure really, I mean, perhaps when 10 the City -- 11 Q: Let me give you the specific -- 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: -- instances here. We know that -- that 14 the RFQ, leasing RFQ is issued by the City, May the 31st, 15 1999. 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And we know June 11th is the close date? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: Now, did you at that time, take you back 20 to May 31st, 1999, consider that that period of time between 21 May 31st, 1999 and June 11th, 1999 was a black-out period? 22 A: I don't know if I'd consider it a 23 black-out period, because I mean I'm sure there's questions 24 that come up or clarification that needs to be made. So, I 25 don't know.

1 Q: Subject to situations where the City 2 needed some clarification on a bid, did you at that time, 3 consider it a black-out period, that -- that is for example, 4 that unless asked, you should have no contact with the City 5 or don't discuss anything with the City, I'm just using your 6 -- your words, zero (0) communication? 7 A: Well, that's -- I don't know, I guess 8 that's the general views of how business should be conducted, 9 I guess. 10 Q: Was that your view at the time? 11 A: Because I was so new into it, I wouldn't 12 say it was my personal view, no. 13 Q: Well, I appreciate that -- that you were 14 being informed and educated by others, you said that you 15 understood that the -- the black-out period was an evaluation 16 period. So I take it that when you say you understood, 17 somebody must have -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- assisted your understanding in -- in 20 that regard. Can you recall who that would have been that -- 21 A: I -- I really can't recall if it was our 22 -- I don't know if it was -- it may have been Jim -- Jim 23 Andrew, but I'm not certain. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Jim Andrew did you say? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. But I'm not certain of

1 that, what exactly it was, Commissioner. 2 MR. KEN JONES: Excuse me a moment, just a 3 clarification. I'm not sure in putting the question, whether 4 Mr. Manes is referring to the period of May 31 to June 11 as 5 an evaluation period or black-out period, and I'm not sure 6 what the witness is referring to that period as either. 7 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: I think the point, 8 Commissioner, is we're trying to find out from the witness 9 what he thought about it and not what Mr. Manes thinks. I 10 think that's what we're trying to do. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right, I think the -- if 12 I can assist, Mr. Manes just gave the dates between May 31st, 13 the date of the leasing RFQ, and June the 11th, the closing 14 date, basically what was Mr. Domi's view as to whether or not 15 that was a black-out period. Okay? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 19 Q: Now, and the -- 20 MR. KEN JONES: Well, what was confusing -- 21 sorry, what was confusing me was use of the term evaluation 22 period. 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I didn't -- I don't have 24 him saying evaluation period, but -- 25 MR. RONALD MANES: The witness --

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- that was before he 2 gave those dates, he said the word evaluation period before 3 he gave the dates of May 31st to July (sic) the 11th, he's 4 breaking it down. 5 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: When he was first 6 asked, Commissioner, what a black-out period was. I recorded 7 that he said, from what I'm told, it's an evaluation period. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right, right. 9 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: And it's not clear when 10 he was told that or what he's relating that to. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think Mr. Manes is 12 trying to get to that. 13 MR. RONALD MANES: And that's exactly -- 14 that's exactly where -- where I'm going -- 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You -- 16 MR. RONALD MANES: -- with this and I'm not 17 talking about any particular black-out period now. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 20 Q: I just would like to know who -- who told 21 you or educated you about the black-out period, and you've -- 22 you've said that it's possible that it's -- it was Jim 23 Andrew? 24 A: Well, perhaps I may have -- I don't know, 25 I don't know why I -- I thought that, but it may have -- it

1 may have been Jim actually saying something about it, I don't 2 know. 3 Q: I know it's been a long time ago, and 4 this must have been in the -- in the early stages at MFP, 5 perhaps I should -- shouldn't even approach it that way. Do 6 you recall when you might have had a discussion with Mr. 7 Andrew about black-out periods? 8 A: I do not, Mr. Manes, recall exactly when 9 that would have been. 10 Q: Do you recall whether Mr. Andrew ever 11 referred to an eval -- a black-out period as an evaluation 12 period? 13 A: I don't know what he would have referred 14 to it as, really. 15 Q: And when I asked you the question, the 16 first name that came into your mind was Mr. Andrew? 17 A: Yeah, I don't know why, but it just kind 18 of -- 19 Q: All right. 20 A: -- did. 21 Q: I take it -- let's just talk about that 22 for a moment, that in the discussions that you've had with 23 Mr. Andrew, cordial relationship, you'd talked about the City 24 -- City's processes, including the RFQ process? 25 A: Yes, I'm sure I did.

1 Q: All right. And would that include 2 discussions of black-out periods or evaluation periods, 3 something like that? 4 A: I don't know, it may have, but I -- I 5 think more importantly it was what was -- understanding the 6 RFQ or whatever, what was involved in it, more importantly. 7 Q: Now, between June 11th and the date that 8 Council announced the winning bid, which was July 27th, did 9 you consider that period to be a black-out period? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: I guess I would, yes. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And would it be your understanding of a 18 black-out period, so far as it related to June the 11th to 19 July 27th, that it was understood or prohibited that there be 20 any contact with the City in relation to the RFQ? 21 A: I'd say that was probably understood from 22 my point of view. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 Q: Now, during that period of time, do you 2 recall whether you had contact with the City or a 3 representative of the City or a City Councillor, for any 4 business other than the leasing RFQ? 5 A: No, I cannot recall that, Mr. Manes. That 6 was probably -- no. 7 Q: Would you have seen anything wrong or bad 8 or prohibitive about discussing business with City officials 9 so long as it didn't have anything to do with the RFQ? 10 A: My personal point of view, I probably 11 would say I would -- yeah -- I wouldn't -- I personally 12 wouldn't have a problem with it, if it's not discussed or -- 13 Q: Were you aware of any City written policy 14 with respect to black-out periods? 15 A: No, it was never brought to my attention 16 or I wasn't aware of it. 17 Q: Were you aware of any written policy at 18 MFP regarding black-out periods? 19 A: No, I was not. 20 MR. RONALD MANES: It's 11:30 Commissioner, I 21 think I can get that information in the meantime and I may 22 have one (1) or two (2) other questions. 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: We can take a break. 24 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: I wonder just before you 25 go, Madam Commissioner, in terms -- we're leaving the black-

1 out period, which is very -- 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm not sure if we are 3 leaving it -- 4 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: If we're not then, I'll 5 save it. 6 MR. RONALD MANES: I might say that I imagine 7 that I'm not the only person that's going to have questions 8 about, Mr. Domi's understanding of the black-out period. 9 So -- from my discussions with other Counsel, 10 so I'll just leave it at that and these are all the questions 11 I -- 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Cavalluzzo, you're 13 saying, given that if he is, in fact, leaving the black-out 14 period -- 15 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Right -- 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- you -- 17 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: -- I just want to, I 18 don't think, My Friend, was intending to be unfair in his 19 questions, but in respect of the period between May 31 and 20 June 11, I think it's very crucial that we look at Tab 1 of 21 Dash Domi's book, which is the addendum. 22 It's a letter dated June 7th of '99, an 23 addendum to all bidders, which basically says, here is an 24 addendum to the RFQ and then it says: 25 "the deadline for any further questions

1 arising out of this RFQ will be 4:30 on 2 Wednesday, June 9." 3 So, I think that that document is crucial in 4 terms of the period May 31 to June 11, when witnesses are 5 being asked about that specific period. 6 Thank you. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Domi, did you know 8 about that? Do you remember getting that addendum? 9 THE WITNESS: I do not remember, Commissioner. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Was it ever brought to 11 your attention? 12 THE WITNESS: It may have Commissioner. A lot 13 of those things would have probably been picked up by Sandy, 14 so and forwarded to Rob, at the time, I think. So -- 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. We'll take the 16 break now. 17 MS. BAY RYLEY: Sorry, could I just -- 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Who is -- 19 MS. BAY RYLEY: Bay Ryley. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes. 21 MS. BAY RYLEY: It sounds like Mr. Manes is 22 going to be done -- finished soon after the break. And I 23 just -- something has come up from this morning's testimony 24 that I need to speak to our client about. 25 And I just would be concerned about -- if Mr.

1 Manes, is only going to be a few minutes, then I wouldn't be 2 prepared to start right away without speaking to our client. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, do you have twenty 4 (20) minutes is that -- is that going to be enough for you to 5 do whatever it is that you need to do? 6 MS. BAY RYLEY: I'm not sure, it may be, but I 7 hope I can connect with her, so -- 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, why don't I give 9 you a couple of extra minutes. We'll come back at twenty- 10 five (25) to because we've already taken a -- I'm sorry, five 11 (5) to. I see all these looks of horror here. 12 We'll come back at five (5) to and then, Ms. 13 Ryley, we'll see how -- how far we go. I don't know how much 14 longer Mr. Manes is going to be, but if it's necessary for us 15 to take an earlier lunch to accommodate that, then we're 16 going to have to do that. 17 MS. BAY RYLEY: Thank you. 18 THE REGISTRAR: The Inquiry will recess until 19 five (5) to 12:00. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 11:32 a.m. 22 23 --- Upon reconvening at 11:55 a.m. 24 25 THE REGISTRAR: The Inquiry will resume.

1 Please be seated. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes...? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MR. RONALD MANES: Commissioner, just a few 10 things. First of all, on the -- on the clarification of that 11 June 7th document that Mr. Cavalluzzo referred us to at Tab 1 12 of Mr. Domi's documents. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes? Mr. Domi testified 14 that he couldn't recall having seen this. I think this was 15 some time ago. 16 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes, well I just -- I 17 thought I had taken Mr. Domi to that document. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I -- I have a note here 19 that you did and that he said he couldn't recall seeing it. 20 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes, that's right. That's 21 at Page 56, Lines 15 to -- 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Page 56 of what -- what 23 are you reading, Mr. Manes. That is January 23rd, 2003, and 24 perhaps we should go through the whole thing because there 25 was another document involved.

1 I sorry, I just don't -- if I could just have 2 a moment here. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 MR. RONALD MANES: If you'll -- Commissioner, 7 I'm going to be referring to Tabs 1, 2 and 3, that are 8 related to the June 7th letter, which for our record here, 9 we're at Volume number 1 of Dash Domi documents. 10 Tab 1 is Begdoc number 3902, that's a letter 11 dated June 7th, 1999, addendum number 1 from Frank Spizarsky, 12 S-P-I-Z-A-R-S-K-Y, Manager Purchasing and Materials 13 Management. 14 Tab number 2, I understand there is an 15 enclosure in that letter, document number 3903, and that 16 relates to server configurations. And document number 3, 17 which is Begdoc number 3907, Estimated Leasing Volumes, and 18 the total of the estimated leasing -- leasing volumes is 19 forty-three million one hundred and fifty thousand dollars 20 ($43,150,000). 21 And the reason I read those all out to you is 22 the following exchange at -- at January 23rd, 2003, at pages 23 56 to 57, starting at line 13. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES:

1 Q: "Tab 1 of -- of your binder there, I'm 2 referring Mr. Domi to, Okay -- this is a 3 letter dated June 7th, or this document, 4 3902, 3902, it's a letter dated June 7th, 5 1999 from Mr. Spizarsky of Purchasing, and 6 it's an addendum to the RFQ, did you ever 7 see that?" 8 A: I can't recall seeing it, I'm sorry. 9 Q: All right, and if you can go to Tab 3, 10 document 3907? 11 A: Okay. 12 Q: You will see that -- that it's part of 13 this addendum? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And it says, estimated leasing volumes? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And it -- it has approximate value for 18 each asset type? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: Now, if you add all those up -- well, 21 first of all, have you ever seen that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right, good. If you add all those 24 up by my figures, it's forty-three million 25 one hundred and fifty thousand dollars

1 ($43,150,000)? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right, when you say you saw that, 4 why is that you can remember that, seeing 5 that particular document. Did you see it 6 at that time? 7 A: Yeah, I just -- I -- I can't recall when 8 I saw this table, but I have seen it." 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Another matter that was brought up 13 previously was the Mariah Carey concert. In respect to that, 14 Tab 42 in Volume 2 of Mr. Domi's expenses. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: That is Begdoc number 26188. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Eight hundred and forty-five dollars and 23 forty-seven cents ($845.47) at J. J. Muggs, and on that day 24 -- that by the way, the time was 22:38 or 10:38 in the 25 evening, that -- on that date and at that time, was the

1 Mariah Carey concert. 2 This is a total here of eight hundred and 3 forty five dollars and forty seven cents ($845.47). 4 Now, does that assist you at all in knowing 5 whether you went to the Mariah Carey concert on that evening 6 and entertained to the extent of eight hundred and forty five 7 dollars and forty seven cents ($845.47)? 8 A: I'm sure I did entertain. 9 Q: All right. Would that have assisted you 10 -- did that assist you in knowing who you entertained on that 11 date, in your box? 12 A: I do not remember at the time -- I can't 13 even remember the concert really. 14 Q: All right. If I recall you gave evidence 15 yesterday regarding expensing your birthday party May 18th, 16 2001 -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- it was Harbour 60, eleven hundred and 19 sixty eight dollars ($1168). I take it that you brought that 20 expense to the attention of MFP in relation to discussions 21 regarding the Inquiry? 22 A: I believe so, yes. 23 Q: All right. And you told them that -- that 24 expensing that was the wrong thing to do? 25 A: I can't remember saying that, but, I'm --

1 yes. 2 Q: Did you pay back MFP for eleven hundred 3 and sixty eight dollars ($1168)? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Did MFP ever request it? 6 A: No. 7 Q: All right. 8 MR. RONALD MANES: Those are my questions, 9 Commissioner. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 11 Mr. Domi, I'm just still a little uncertain 12 about the black-out period -- 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- and what you knew and 15 when. So, can you tell me, when you first remember even 16 hearing about a concept like a black-out period? 17 When would you have first even have heard of 18 that? 19 THE WITNESS: Commissioner, I may have heard 20 it from -- actually from perhaps John Rollock, because he was 21 -- John and I started on the same day at MFP. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 23 THE WITNESS: And he was my boss, I answered 24 to him, between him and Irene. And he worked in the 25 government and he may have also told me.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Do you recall him 2 specifically telling you or are you -- 3 THE WITNESS: I don't really recall 4 specifically, but he was kind of trying to help me out a lot 5 because I was in a tough task, obviously. And he was a 6 bureaucrat in the Province. Started on the same day as I 7 did, like I said. And he was of great assistance to me and 8 in -- 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And in terms of -- of 10 let's say it was John Rollock who told you about the 11 black-out period. 12 Do you remember when he would have told you 13 that? Was it when you were both first starting or was it 14 when you were getting close to a RFQ or -- do you have any -- 15 can you pin down at all when that discussion might have 16 happened? 17 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure, Commissioner. I 18 can't give you an exact time or -- 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: By the time the RFQ was 20 issued, so that was the end of May 1999, May 31st, 1999, are 21 you in a position to help us here now, as to whether or not, 22 you knew about that concept, at that point? 23 THE WITNESS: I'm sure I was told about it, 24 yes. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: By that point, you knew?

1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. All right. 3 Thanks a lot. 4 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes, any questions 6 arising out of that? 7 MR. RONALD MANES: No Commissioner. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Thank you. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay so -- 13 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Madam Commissioner, 14 before we move on, I just want to clarify one (1) thing for 15 the record, particularly, in light of us trying to protect 16 reputations here. 17 My Friend yesterday asked questions concerning 18 the Philadelphia trip and suggested that there was an 19 allegation of a racial slur and it wasn't clear when that 20 occurred and we have done some research -- 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Hmm hmm. 22 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: -- and the Philadelphia 23 game that we heard so much evidence about yesterday was on 24 Sunday, May 2nd. It was the sixth game of that particular 25 series. The alleged ra -- racial slur occurred in the third

1 game -- 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 3 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: -- of that series which 4 took place on Monday, April 26th. The Philadelphia game, you 5 may recall, was on Sunday, May 2nd. 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 7 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Okay? So that -- I 8 just wanted to clarify that. 9 The other I want t -- to clarify for the 10 record is that in respect of the allegation against Tie Domi, 11 no action whatever was taken by the NHL or any other 12 authority because of lack of proof. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Thank you. 14 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Thank you. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Now, I took it that Mr. 16 Manes was asking those questions not because he was saying 17 that Tie Domi had done anything like that but that -- only to 18 try to refresh Mr. Domi's memory of why the game in 19 Philadelphia might have been memorable at that time because 20 there were allegations that had been made before that. 21 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: But I -- but for the 22 record, I just wanted to clarify when, in fact, the 23 allegation -- 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 25 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: -- occurred in respect

1 of the game and it was the third game. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right and it -- just -- 3 just so I have it clear. It -- it means that at the time 4 that Mr. Domi was at the Philadelphia, the alleged -- the 5 allegation had already been made. 6 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: That's correct. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right. Okay. 8 While we're tying up loose ends on -- on that, 9 I gather that -- I don't have it here, our articling student 10 is ill. 11 I think we worked him to death but he did -- 12 he did make -- he did go through all of the cell phone 13 records that you -- remember we had said yesterday, rather 14 than have you at your hourly rate to have to count them all 15 up and I think he found that something like 80 percent -- 16 around 80 percent or so of all of those calls were under the 17 -- a minute and thirty-eight (38) seconds. Is that fair? 18 MR. RONALD MANES: That -- that's what he 19 found. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. If that helps 21 anybody. 22 Okay, so Counsel -- 23 THE WITNESS: That's interesting, 24 Commissioner, actually, that's -- 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Groskaufmanis?

1 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: Well, I just as a 2 housekeeping matter before we start cross-examination. There 3 was two (2) additional documents provided by Ms. Ryley on 4 behalf of Ms. Viinamae. I've distributed them, I believe, to 5 Counsel this morning. They are Tab 86 and 87 in Volume 2 of 6 the Dash Domi documents. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Thank you. Now, 8 do we have agreement as to who is going when? Counsel? Yes? 9 Who is going first then, if we have agreement? Ms. Ryley, is 10 that you? 11 MS. BAY RYLEY: Yes. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Everybody seems to be 13 looking at you, so. 14 MS. BAY RYLEY: I am going first. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. And are you 16 ready to proceed now? 17 MS. BAY RYLEY: Yes. I expect I'll be a 18 little over an hour. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. All right, thank 20 you. 21 Mr. Domi, so you know, Ms. Ryley is Lana 22 Viinamae's lawyer. 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Groskaufmanis, is 4 there a Tab 85? I have 86 and 87 here, but I don't have -- 5 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: I -- I -- I believe 6 there's -- I'm just trying to check that myself. I believe 7 Tab 85 are the Sky Charter documents -- 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 9 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: -- that were handed 10 to us yesterday after the afternoon break. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay, so we'll insert 12 that later. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MS. BAY RYLEY: We're running out of room 17 here. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes, could you 19 remove some of your material? 20 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: Commissioner, if I could 21 just add one (1) thing. I hurt my back last Saturday and 22 will find it very difficult to stay standing when I ask 23 questions after Bay, so if -- if it's all right with you, I 24 would hope to ask questions from a seated position? 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Oh.

1 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: If that's okay. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay, I think you might 3 to speak with your physician though, usually they tell you to 4 stand when you have a bad back, as opposed to sitting. 5 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: It hurts more when I 6 stand, unfortunately, I have to lift my foot up actually -- 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 8 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: -- to -- to make it not 9 hurt so much. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, why don't we see 11 where we are by the time we get to you, and whether your back 12 is still hurting at that point? 13 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: Okay. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay? 15 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: Yes. 16 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Madam Commissioner, if 17 it'll assist, I could ask -- I could switch places with Mr. 18 MacKenzie -- 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Oh. 20 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: -- so he can be in 21 clear sight of the witness, that might assist as well. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: That would be very kind, 23 thank you. 24 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: Thank you. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ready?

1 MS. BAY RYLEY: I'm ready. 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. BAY RYLEY: 4 Q: Mr. Domi, if you could please turn to Tab 5 57 in the document -- the second document book? 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: So Volume 2 -- 7 MS. BAY RYLEY: Volume -- yes, Volume 2. 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. Number 2? 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. BAY RYLEY: 11 Q: Yeah, it says Colours of Christmas at the 12 top. 13 A: Oh, I'm sorry, that's Volume -- 14 Q: This is Domi Documents 2. 15 A: Oh, okay. 16 Q: It's not the expenses. 17 A: All right, sorry. 18 Q: All right. And in connection with that 19 if you could turn to Tab 9 in the same book. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: Could you tell me what the purpose of 25 this event was, the Colours of Christmas?

84
  1                 A:   It's -- at Christmas time MFP would
  2  sponsor this for inviting all our -- our customers and
  3  clients.
  4                 Q:   And did you -- I understand you didn't
  5  attend this event?
  6                 A:   I don't know, I've been to one (1) of
  7  them.
  8                 Q:   Okay.  I understand the year -- the year
  9  2000 one (1) you didn't go?
 10                 A:   I may not have, no.
 11                 Q:   And so this is a -- a type of customer
 12  appreciation?
 13                 A:   Yes, for many customers, yes.
 14                 Q:   And who -- who would be invited?
 15                 A:   Well, I think we'd invite most of our
 16  customers.
 17                 Q:   Was there a mix of -- there's a mix of
 18  public and private sector customers there?
 19                 A:   Yes.
 20                 Q:   And I understand that the City employees
 21  who went were not the only public sector employees -- 
 22                 A:   No.
 23                 Q:   -- who attended this event?
 24                 A:   No.
 25                 Q:   There were Provincial Government --

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- employees who were there too? 3 A: I believe so, yes. 4 Q: And if you turn to Tab 47 of the same 5 binder. 6 A: Forty-seven (47), okay. 7 Q: It's the same event, but from December 8 2nd, 1999. 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: On Tab 47, it shows Ms. -- Ms. Viinamae 11 did attend -- or sorry, Tab 57 -- 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Ryley, could you -- 13 are you at Tab 57 or 47? 14 MS. BAY RYLEY: I was and then I went to 47, 15 if we could go back to 57. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Fifty-seven (57). 17 THE WITNESS: Okay. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. BAY RYLEY: 20 Q: It's document number 29117, for the 21 record. So, Ms. Viinamae did attend in 2000, in the year 22 2000? 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Maybe, Ms. Ryley, if I 24 can just assist here. We have never seen this document 25 before, and Mr. Domi will not have seen it before, so if you

1 could tell us what this is, that might be helpful, okay. Tab 2 57? 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. BAY RYLEY: 5 Q: Do you -- maybe, Mr. Domi, you could 6 explain what this is? 7 A: This is probably, Commissioner, a list of 8 -- I don't know if -- a list that invitations seems to have 9 been sent to, and I don't know if -- 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Is this an MFP document? 11 THE WITNESS: I believe so, yes. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 13 THE WITNESS: Actually I'm just trying to 14 look at all the names here, yes, it's all MFP -- 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: 29117? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. BAY RYLEY: 20 Q: So on -- on 29117, it shows that Ms. 21 Viinamae was sent an invitation and she responded, it says 22 RSVP -- RSVP two (2), I assume that means two (2) tickets? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And if we go back to Tab 47. 25 A: Okay.

1 Q: That's document 29113. 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: What does it show there about Ms. 4 Viinamae's attendance? 5 A: It says, no. 6 Q: So, she didn't attend in -- in 1999? 7 A: Well -- 8 Q: She didn't attend this event? 9 A: -- that's what it says on here, yes. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Ryley, forgive me, 11 but I've never seen this document before, so I don't know, is 12 this a document now that says, this is a different year, is 13 that the idea? 14 MS. BAY RYLEY: There's two (2) Colours of 15 Christmas. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 17 MS. BAY RYLEY: One (1) was from 1999, 18 December '99, and one (1) is from December, 2000. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. So what -- all we 20 know here is that MFP, through Dash Domi, extended an 21 invitation to the individuals listed, and that Lana Viinamae 22 said she would not be attending. 23 I don't know if it means that she didn't 24 attend, but it means that she said she would not be 25 attending.

1 I guess we can draw a natural inference. 2 MS. BAY RYLEY: It says she was not attending 3 and she will testify that she did not attend. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. BAY RYLEY: 7 Q: And, Mr. Domi, if you could just tell me 8 who did respond that they would be coming to the 1999 event, 9 judging from the chart that we have here, from the City? 10 A: Okay. It says two (2) at the top there, I 11 don't know what that's for, but I don't know -- 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Maybe that's you, Mr. 13 Domi? 14 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, Commissioner, sorry. 15 two (2), it's blank there next to Jim Andrew, it says, no, 16 Lana. Brendan Power says no. Wanda Liczyk two (2) theater 17 and whoever that may be under there. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, I would have 19 thought that that was two (2) for you -- 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: No, for Mr. Andrew, no 22 for Ms. Viinamae, two (2) theatre for Mr. Power and two (2) 23 for Wanda Liczyk, is that now how that would be, or is the 24 other way? 25 No for Andrew, no for Viinamae, two (2)

1 theatre for Power, it's not clear. 2 THE WITNESS: You may be correct, 3 Commissioner, I just -- I just don't know how they lined up 4 here. Yeah, I guess you're right. It says, no, no, two (2), 5 two (2). 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. BAY RYLEY: 9 Q: Do you recall -- Ms. Viinamae will testify 10 that she didn't attend in 1999, do you recall otherwise? 11 It's hard to tell, I know, by this chart but -- 12 A: Yeah, no I do not recall otherwise. 13 Q: Now, if you could turn to Tab 59 in the 14 same binder. 15 A: Okay. 16 Q: Document 13270. 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: And this indicates that Ms. Liczyk had a 19 meeting with you, WKC, who I believe is Ken Colley and Ms. 20 Viinamae. 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: And it shows the meetings was from 2:00 to 23 3:00 p.m. on that day, January 17th, 2001. 24 A: Okay. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Ryley, can you help

1 me with the spelling of Mr. Colley's name please? 2 MS. BAY RYLEY: Ken Colley -- C-O-L-L-E-Y. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Thanks. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. BAY RYLEY: 6 Q: I understand that Rob Wilkinson, Katherine 7 Bulko and either Al Schultz or Len Brittain also attended 8 this meeting. Do you have any information that would 9 contradict that? 10 A: I do not. Rob was definitely at a meeting 11 like that. So -- so -- 12 Q: Sorry Rob? 13 A: Wilkinson. 14 Q: Yes was -- I'm sorry I didn't hear your -- 15 A: Oh, I'm sorry, because I don't see Rob's 16 name on here, but Rob was definitely at a meeting like that, 17 yes. 18 Q: And Tab 72 in the same binder. 19 A: Okay. 20 Q: Document 25008. 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: And this is a e-mail from Lee Ann Currie 23 to you and Rob Wilkinson, and it looks like it's cc'ed to two 24 (2) other MFP people. 25 A: Okay.

1 Q: And it says: 2 "Hi Dash, just following up on the document 3 that the City was to prepare. Brendan, 4 Lana [I believe] to clarify the signatory 5 issues that we have had with the execution