1 2 3 TORONTO COMPUTER LEASING INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE MADAM JUSTICE DENISE BELLAMY, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: East York Civic Centre 17 850 Coxwell Avenue 18 Toronto, Ontario 19 M4C 5R1 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 January 27th, 2003 25

2
  1                        APPEARANCES
  2  Ronald Manes            )Commission Counsel 
  3  Patrick Moore  (np)     )
  4  Daina Groskaufmanis     ) 
  5  Linda Rothstein         )City of Toronto 
  6  Lily Harmer    (np)     )
  7  Robert Centa   (np)     )
  8  Gordon Capern  (np)     )
  9  David Moore             )MFP 
 10  Fraser Berrill (np)     ) 
 11  Ken Jones      (np)     ) 
 12  Brian Heller   (np)     )Ball Hsu and Associates Ltd.
 13  Melissa Kronick (np)    )CUPE 
 14  Raj Anand (np)          )Lana Viinamae
 15  Bay Ryley               )
 16  William Anderson        )Wanda Liczyk
 17  Valerie Dyer   (np)     )Dell Computers
 18  Jennifer Lynch (np)     )
 19  Edward Greenspan (np)   )Jeff Lyons
 20  Todd White (np)         )
 21  Hugh MacKenzie          )Jim Andrew
 22  Paul Cavalluzzo         )Dash Domi
 23  Benjamin Barnes (np)    )
 24  
 25  Joyce Ihamaki           )Registrar

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 4 DASH DOMI, Resumed 5 Continued Examination-in-Chief 6 by Mr. Ronald Manes 6 7 8 Certificate of Transcript 219 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 10:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: The inquiry is now in 4 session. Please be seated. 5 6 DASHNOR DOMI, Resumed: 7 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Good morning. 9 Mr. Domi, you're still under oath and I'm not 10 going to tell you every single day, but, you're under oath 11 until you finish testifying. 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. 14 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Now, before I begin, I 16 just want to address a concern that has been brought to my 17 attention by the lawyers here and that's by Commission 18 Counsel, as well as by those representing parties with 19 standing. 20 And it concerns hearing -- it concerns 21 photography in the Hearing Room. And -- no offense to you 22 Mark. Last Friday, a newspaper published an artistically 23 composed photograph. And quite a well artistically composed 24 photograph, I might add, showing Mr. Manes notes while he was 25 examining Mr. Domi.

5
  1                 I'm confident that the newspaper published the
  2  photo with no ill intentions.  However, I cannot stress
  3  enough that in his Hearing Room, lawyers are entitled to the
  4  privacy of their notes.
  5                 And I am therefore asking all photographs --
  6  all photographers, stills and television to refrain from
  7  photographing lawyers notes or any document on which the
  8  lawyers have written any notes.
  9                 We've put a notice to that effect on the glass
 10  doors outside and a copy of the notice will be posted on our
 11  website at www.torontoinquiry.ca.
 12                 I want to emphasize that I firmly believe in
 13  the public nature of this Inquiry and I value the role of
 14  photographers and the role that they have played in bringing
 15  the proceedings to the attention of the public.
 16                 I have no problem whatsoever with
 17  photographers taking photos of documents that have been
 18  entered as Exhibits.  Indeed, those documents are available
 19  in the media room and may be photographed.
 20                 But I consider the notes that lawyers may have
 21  on their lectern or on their desks to be private and I ask
 22  photographers to respect that privacy and therefore not to
 23  photograph them.
 24                 I thank you in advance for your cooperation.
 25                 All right.

1 Mr. Domi. 2 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes...? 4 5 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. RONALD MANES: 6 Q: Good morning, Mr. Domi. 7 A: Morning. 8 Q: Just a little housekeeping between you and 9 I. You were -- or your Counsel was going to look for your 10 resume and I wonder if you'd been able to locate your resume? 11 A: Oh, I'm sorry, I have not. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: But, I will -- 14 Q: Could you -- 15 A: For sure. 16 Q: All right. Diaries, did you keep diaries 17 or an organizer from 1999 through -- through now -- today? 18 A: I believe I have had one (1) for this past 19 -- I'm not sure, I have to check, but I did not keep my 20 diaries. I wasn't -- I had a Palm Pilot at one point that 21 got stolen at the gym that I used to use. 22 Q: Did you say that you had a diary now? 23 A: I believe I do, yes. 24 Q: What period would that diary be for? 25 A: I think in the past year.

1 Q: Could you make that available to -- 2 A: Sure 3 Q: -- your Counsel -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- and the previous diaries, were there 6 diaries or was it the Palm Pilot or -- 7 A: I had a Palm Pilot I believe, in 2000. In 8 1999, I kept a -- like in my daytimer, but I never kept those 9 actually. 10 Q: When would you have disposed of the 1999 11 daytimer? 12 A: When I moved. I believe, when I moved. 13 Q: When would that have been? 14 A: I moved in -- I think it was in late 2000. 15 Q: All right. 16 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: If I might interject, 17 the diary for 2002, that the witness is referring to was 18 shared with Commission Counsel in September and I assume that 19 that's what you want, Commission Counsel? 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Cavalluzzo, if you 21 could direct your questions to me, I'd appreciate it. 22 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Okay. 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr. Manes, is 24 that what you're asking for the one that -- 25 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes, if that's already --

1 if that's already been produced, I know that we've -- we've 2 asked for other diaries, I just wanted to confirm that state 3 of the diaries. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, just so we can make 5 it absolutely clear, is this one (1) that Commission Counsel 6 has looked at previously -- 7 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Yes -- 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- and no longer has or 9 one (1) that Commission Counsel looked at and still has? 10 MR. RONALD MANES: Ms. Groskaufmanis is not in 11 the Hearing Room, if I might have a moment. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You're no where without 13 her. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. RONALD MANES: It's been reviewed and 18 returned the 2000 -- 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Oh, I see. 20 MR. RONALD MANES: -- calendar. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: So, what you're asking 22 for is -- it was returned to Mr. Domi? 23 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes, apparently so. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And not copied, or 25 copied?

1 MR. RONALD MANES: I don't have the answer to 2 that. I'll check at the -- at the break. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. In any event, Mr. 4 Domi, is saying he's prepared to return it -- 5 THE WITNESS: Sure. 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Thanks. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 9 Q: On the last occasion, we had referred in 10 your evidence to a file folder -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- containing documents that -- 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: -- had been turned over by Commission 15 Counsel and I have asked Mr. David Moore if he could locate 16 that file folder, that we would like the actual file folder 17 to be here. 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: All right. Do you recall whether that 20 file folder had your name on it, Mr. Domi? 21 A: I don't believe so, Mr. Manes -- 22 Q: All right. In any event, we'll -- I know 23 Mr. Moore's got a lot to do. I anticipate we'll -- we'll get 24 that. Now, no more housekeeping. 25 When we -- when we last broke, I want to speak

1 with you about -- about specific relationships you had with - 2 - 3 A: Sure. 4 Q: -- people in -- in the City and otherwise 5 and we've talked about some. Let me just confirm some of the 6 statements that you made on your transcript in evidence 7 before. 8 Have you reviewed that transcript? 9 A: No. 10 Q: All right. I'll give you the entry if 11 someone doesn't sound right -- 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: -- the transcript entry. Firstly to 14 confirm with you that when you talk about building 15 relationships, you're talking about befriending people? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And this means people that you meet in 18 business or you meet socially, et cetera? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: There was nothing in the MFP rules which 21 prohibed -- prohibited you from bre -- befriending a client? 22 A: No. 23 Q: MFP was a relationship company and an 24 entrepreneurial company? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And you stated, I believe that you -- if 2 you had to describe yourself in your resume, any 3 characteristic that was outstanding would be that you were 4 driven? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And results oriented? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: All right. Part of your mandate was to 9 pursue and build relationships with clients, including the 10 City? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: All right and I think you -- you said, I 13 have an entry here in any event, that Ms. Payne expected that 14 of you? 15 A: Absolutely, yes. 16 Q: All right and, in fact, I think that's 17 the word you used is absolutely. You were the lead person on 18 the relationships in the City? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And then you said that at 21 some point you had a very strong relationship with Mr. 22 Jakobek, with Ms. Liczyk, and Mr. Andrew, and then went on to 23 say it was around the fall or October of 1999, and then when 24 we went to Tab 15 which was a memorandum dated October 15th, 25 '99, you said that the characterization was correct. That

1 there was a very strong relationship at that point. 2 A: I'm sorry, can you give me the dates of 3 that? 4 Q: Yeah. October 15th, actually, of 1999, 5 by that time you -- it was correct in characterizing your 6 relationship with Ms. Liczyk, Ms -- Mr. Andrew and Mr. 7 Jakobek as a very strong relationship. 8 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Just b -- just before - 9 - an objection before the witness answers the question. My 10 recollection of October of '99 is the reference was strong 11 rather than very strong, and I'm looking in particular at Tab 12 16 of the Domi file. It's 27616, Tab 16 and the reference is 13 strong relationship with IT and Finance senior management 14 people. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay and is this the -- 16 is this the one (1) that was -- 27616, the Q3/Q4 forecast, 17 was it -- 18 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: That's right. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- is that the one that 20 we thought was probably October? 21 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Yes, that's correct. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes, were you 23 reading from the transcript or -- 24 MR. RONALD MANES: I was -- I was reading 25 from my -- my notes. I'm just going to the transcript right

1 now. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think the very strong 3 relationships, as I understand it, was in the note that Mr. 4 Wilkinson did. 5 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes, let me read from the 6 transcript, Commissioner, at 158. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay, which day please? 8 MR. RONALD MANES: This would be January 9 22nd. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Hmm hmm, and which page? 11 MR. RONALD MANES: This would be Page 158, 12 Line 19: 13 "Q: All right. So I take it that the 14 characterization of you having developed a 15 strong relationship with IT and Finance 16 senior management and with the key 17 political decision makers in the Megacity 18 was correct? 19 A: Correct." 20 So a strong relationship was the way you were 21 describing it in relation to October 15th, 1999? 22 A: I'd say, I mean I'm not exactly sure what 23 the definition of strong relationships with these individuals 24 is, but I'd say I had a relationship, yes. 25 Q: I'm just --

1 A: Okay -- sure -- 2 Q: -- from your transcript. 3 A: Okay. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes, did you say 5 that that was January the 22nd? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MR. RONALD MANES: That's what I've got on the 10 front here, January 22nd, page 158. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Oh, 158. 12 MR. RONALD MANES: 158. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I thought you said 159, 14 all right. 15 MR. RONALD MANES: If I just might have a 16 moment, so we can put this in perspective? 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Oh, I have it here now, 18 but I thought you'd had said ... 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You did say 158, I just 23 had in my head 159. All right. So -- 24 MR. RONALD MANES: There's just one (1) other 25 entry I want to read to the witness.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Now, just if we 2 can be completely fair to Mr. Domi, in the reading of that 3 transcript of January 22nd, page 158, was there a time period 4 there when you were asking Mr. Domi about the 5 characterization of the relationships as strong? 6 And that says strong, in any event, it didn't 7 say very strong, in the transcript that you read, Mr. Manes, 8 it was strong relationships. 9 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes, that's quite right. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 13 Q: Just one (1) other reference for you, Mr. 14 Domi. 15 A: Sure. 16 Q: Page 149 -- 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Of the same day? 18 MR. RONALD MANES: Same day. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 21 Q: At line 7, let me read this to you: 22 "Well, at some point you would consider 23 that you had strong relations with Tom 24 Jakobek, Wanda Liczyk, and Jim Andrews, is 25 that fair to say from your evidence?

1 Answer: That -- yes." 2 And then we get on to at what point and go on 3 to -- 4 A: Okay. 5 Q: -- establish sometime in the fall and then 6 -- 7 A: Sure. 8 Q: -- October the 15th in relation to that 9 memo. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: It says strong relationships. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. 14 MR. DAVID MOORE: And initially the witness on 15 page 149, in relationship to the time frame said he didn't 16 know, but then -- I don't think you need to read it all, but, 17 starting at page 156, Mr. Manes, was specifically referring 18 to the Q3/Q4 forecast, which although it's difficult to read 19 on the copy, I think we can all read it, it's October 15th, 20 the date of that memo. 21 So, that seems to paint the full picture, in 22 terms of the time frame being discussed. 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And I think when we look 24 at the transcript at page 150, Mr. Domi says: 25 "I'm not exactly sure when I considered it

1 strong. Perhaps when I had something to 2 discuss with them, meaning we had won 3 business in the City of Toronto." 4 So, that would have been at least after July. 5 Okay. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 8 Q: And then, sir, this just for your 9 reference at page 152, line 18: 10 "It was a good thing, a welcome thing, an 11 achievement in your company, sir, to have 12 developed strong relations with Tom 13 Jakobek, Wanda Liczyk, and Jim Andrews, 14 isn't that right? 15 A: Yeah, I -- I'd say it would be, yes." 16 Line 23: 17 "All right, as a salesman for the company 18 that was part of your goal? 19 A: Sure." 20 Now, do you agree with -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- that statement you made? All right. 23 So, when you had developed those strong relationships with 24 Ms. Liczyk, Mr. Andrew, and Mr. Jakobek, you were filling 25 your mandate at the company?

1 A: I was attempting to, yes. 2 Q: Well, according to your evidence, you did? 3 A: Yes. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Somebody coughed, I 5 didn't get what Mr. Domi was attempting to do, sorry? 6 MR. RONALD MANES: Fulfilling his -- 7 THE WITNESS: My duties -- 8 MR. RONALD MANES: -- mandate with the 9 company. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Oh, okay. 11 MR. RONALD MANES: And Mr. Domi said he was 12 attempting to and my response was -- 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I -- I've got all that. 14 MR. RONALD MANES: All right. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Just somebody coughed 16 right at a specific point and I just didn't hear it. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 19 Q: Now, I asked you before whether there was 20 an -- anything at -- at your company at MFP that prohibited 21 you from befriending any client and you agreed, no there 22 wasn't. 23 A: Not that I know of. 24 Q: All right. You had, by October 15th, 25 1999, befriended Mr. Nigro?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Ms. Liczyk? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Mr. Andrew? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And Mr. Jakobek? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: All right. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: With respect to Mr. Nigro, there was some 13 ambiguity I'd like to clear up with you. Prior to working 14 with MFP -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- would you have described your 17 relationship with Mr. Nigro as friends? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And after you started with 20 MFP and according to your expenses within a month or so, you 21 at least started seeing Mr. Nigro about MFP business? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. How did that come about that 24 you started seeing him? Did Mr. Nigro approach you? Did you 25 approach him? Did somebody arrange it?

1 A: I -- I approached Mr. Nigro. Actually, I 2 was working in the province at the time and I was having some 3 trouble in an account there and I just thought I'd ask him on 4 -- I just wasn't clear on how government or a bureaucracy 5 operates and I felt comfortable that Vince would obviously 6 know being a bureaucrat for most of his life. 7 Q: Did you think that he had ever worked at 8 the province? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Did you know prior to that time that -- 11 that h -- his experience was almost exclusively at the City 12 of Toronto? 13 A: No, I -- I -- he worked in a federal 14 level, I'd been told, for a couple years. 15 Q: All right. I -- I appreciate that but at 16 the -- at the time, did you know that Mr. Domi was the -- 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Nigro. 18 THE WITNESS: Mr. Nigro. 19 MR. RONALD MANES: Mr. Nigro was the -- 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You're having the same 21 problem I had last week. 22 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes, in reverse. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 25 Q: Mr. Nigro was a special assistant to the

1 Mayor? 2 A: I did not know that. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: At the time. 5 Q: All right. I take it you knew that after 6 you saw him at the City Hall? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Did you ask Mr. Domi to assist you in -- 9 A: Mr. Nigro. 10 Q: Mr. -- I'm sorry. Did you ask Mr. Nigro 11 to -- I'm writing this down very clearly. Did you ask Mr. 12 Nigro to assist you in understanding the processes at the 13 City? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right and did Mr. Nigro help you in 16 that regard? 17 A: Yeah. I mean, I wanted to understand how 18 Boards or different -- the City is massive and yes, I -- I 19 wanted him to explain or under -- if I could understand, yes. 20 Q: Frankly, you didn't know anything about 21 the -- the procedure at the City or people at the City and 22 you wanted Mr. Nigro to assist you in understanding all that? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: After all, they were a potential client 25 and it's your business to know as much as you can about

1 potential clients. 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: All right. Did Mr. Nigro describe to you 4 what the purchasing process was at the City, including RFPs 5 or RFQs and -- was he involved in that? 6 A: Actually, I don't -- I can't answer that 7 with certainty, but I am assuming I must have asked him at 8 some point -- 9 Q: All right. 10 A: -- how it operated and how different it 11 was from the Province because the Province is -- I was -- in 12 the short time I was at MFP, I have a bit of an understanding 13 the po -- how the Province operated, so I just didn't know 14 when -- municipality -- how it was different from the 15 Province so that's -- 16 Q: At some point, would you have had 17 discussions with, Mr. Nigro, about the leasing RFQ? 18 A: Perhaps when I heard about it, I may have 19 mentioned it to him at some -- some capacity, yes. 20 Q: All right. Do you, to the best of your 21 recollection remember when you first heard about it, so we 22 can give a context to that -- to that time that you spoke 23 with Mr. Nigro about it? 24 A: I just don't want to guess, I'm assuming 25 it's in the period of February or March-ish, I would have

1 probably -- also from understanding through Rob Ashbourne and 2 Irene, because they had been speaking quite a bit. 3 Q: Now, we'll come back to that in just a 4 moment, because I want to talk to you about what you 5 discussed with Mr. Nigro, in February or March, about the 6 RFQ. 7 In your discussions with Mr. Nigro about the 8 processes at the City and the people at the City, did you 9 have occasion to discuss Ms. Liczyk, Mr. Jakobek, Mr. Andrew? 10 A: I -- I probably asked him, particularly, 11 that -- I believe at the time, I recall -- I just recently 12 went over it, there was articles in the paper that we had 13 read quotes from the former budget chief and the chief 14 financial officer regarding Y2K and their expenditures and 15 IT. 16 So, when I read those, I asked Vince on these 17 particular individuals or people or how they fit or -- 18 Q: Former budget chief, I'm unclear, what 19 quote did you read in the newspaper from the former budget 20 chief and who was the former budget chief? 21 A: Tom Jakobek. There was an article in the 22 paper regarding Y2K, there was a lot of media around 23 regarding Y2K, so -- 24 Q: Mr. Jakobek was the budget chief at the 25 time you read the article?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. I understand now. And there 3 was some kind of quote in there or reference to Mr. Jakobek? 4 A: It was a reference from Mr. Jakobek and 5 Ms. Liczyk. 6 Q: And it was in the context of Y2K? 7 A: Y2K and IT. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: I think it was Y2K, and I think -- I can't 10 remember who said what, but -- 11 Q: Do you recall what newspaper? 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. Was it -- did somebody bring 14 that to your attention, or did you just -- 15 A: Rob Wilkinson did, actually. 16 Q: All right. So, you gave Mr. Nigro a call, 17 or you met with him and discussed Mr. Jakobek and Ms. Liczyk 18 and what they had to do with Y2K et cetera? 19 A: Overall, I just wanted to understand Y2K 20 and the City's views -- if he had any idea. 21 Q: Did you discuss Mr. Jakobek and Mr. Liczyk 22 -- Ms. Liczyk, in that context when you -- 23 A: I'm sure I did. 24 Q: All right. Now, do you recall what Mr. 25 Nigro told you about the City and Y2K, and then I'll ask you

1 about Mr. Jakobek and Ms. Liczyk? 2 A: I do not recall. 3 Q: All right. Do you recall what Mr. Nigro 4 told you about Mr. Jakobek? 5 A: He was -- actually I can't really recall, 6 but, he mentioned that he was very -- he knew his budget, and 7 I just can't recall really, just that he -- he had quite a 8 good understanding on where the City was going and he -- he 9 was -- felt like he was the boss, so. 10 Q: Felt like he was the boss of what? 11 A: Well, I just -- regarding the budget, it 12 was like it was his. So -- I -- 13 Q: All right. 14 A: Something like that but I'm not exactly 15 positive. 16 Q: And do you recall whether Mr. Nigro told 17 you that Mr. Jakobek was hard to get to know? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Difficult to get along with? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: But that was somebody -- you respected 22 that, that you did want to get to know. You di -- you did 23 want to get along with? 24 A: I just felt for building a client base 25 for myself and my company, yes. That was just my own

1 decision. 2 Q: All right and do you remember what Mr. 3 Nigro told you about Ms. Liczyk? 4 A: No, I don't actually. I don't know that 5 at the time I -- no. I -- I just -- I can't recall, really. 6 Q: In any event, like Mr. Jakobek it was 7 somebody that you wanted to get to know? 8 A: It's someone that I personally -- yes, I 9 -- thought it would be the right thing to do for myself and 10 my company. 11 Q: All right and Mr. Andrew? Do you 12 remember what, if anything, Mr. Nigro was able to tell you 13 about Mr. Andrew? 14 A: Again, I don't -- I don't really recall. 15 I -- I don't really know if Mr. Nigro knew him very well or 16 -- he -- he ha -- he may have, but I just can't recall, 17 really. 18 Q: Very good. Would you -- would he have 19 told you -- would you have known at that -- at that time that 20 Mr. Andrew was the head of IT? 21 A: I probably knew that from within MFP that 22 he was. 23 Q: Oh. 24 A: Obviously. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: There are many, many entries in your 4 expenses regarding Mr. Nigro, either attending meals with you 5 alone -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- or with other people. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Without going into all those expenses at 10 this point, when you expensed Mr. Nigro -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- was that for a business purpose? 13 A: Yes -- 14 Q: All right. 15 A: -- and -- yes. 16 Q: All right. We've heard evidence here 17 that -- from Mr. Nigro about him meeting with Irene Payne and 18 John Rollock on several occasions. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Did you have anything to do with that 21 happening? 22 A: I -- I -- I'm sure I initially introduced 23 -- I don't know if I should call him Mr. Nigro or Vince -- 24 okay, Mr. Nigro to Irene. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You -- you can call him

1 whatever -- I don't have a problem -- 2 THE WITNESS: C -- can I call anybody 3 anything? 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, not anything. Not 5 anything. 6 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: But if there's people 8 that you know and you feel more comfortable calling them by 9 their first names, I have no problem with that. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm just not crazy about 11 calling people Mr., so -- but I'll do that. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, I -- why don't I 13 just leave that up to you? 14 THE WITNESS: Okay. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 16 THE WITNESS: No problem. Thank you. 17 MR. RONALD MANES: And I'm comfortable with 18 that because I'll know who you mean. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 22 Q: So you introduced -- I'll use the first 23 name, as well. It'll be easier for us to just talk. 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: You -- you introduced Vince to Irene?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Introduced Vince to John? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right and what was your intention in 5 introducing them? 6 A: Well, I worked for both of them. John 7 was in government. I think he was general manager or -- I 8 can't remember his role, actually. We worked in government 9 together and John was a guy I worked very closely with, super 10 guy and I just -- being my boss, I guess, I wanted him to 11 meet Vince, and Irene being his boss, I wanted her to meet 12 Vince. So -- 13 Q: I believe you -- you gave evidence that -- 14 previously that, in your private life, if we can put it that 15 way, you liked introducing people to one (1) another, getting 16 them together, you liked the dynamics of that whole 17 situation? 18 A: I just think it's effective in life for 19 everybody. 20 Q: All right. Did you know that Irene had 21 several meetings with Vince? 22 A: You know, I don't -- Irene was a fast 23 paced lady who was always on the move, so I -- there's 24 obviously I'm sure at times, I wouldn't know who she was 25 meeting with and where she was going. And --

1 Q: You had several meetings with Irene? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And where -- let's have talk about 4 periods, from the time you started until the time -- June the 5 11th -- 6 A: Okay. 7 Q: -- the time the RFQ is closed. You had -- 8 you would have had several meetings with Irene? 9 A: Yeah, I'd probably -- yes, I'd probably 10 push for those meetings more often than she probably wished. 11 Q: You would talk about what you were doing? 12 A: Yes. I was attempting to help her, she 13 wanted to market MFP and take the business to another level, 14 so I feel that she kind of -- whether I believed it myself, 15 or whether she made me believe -- well, I shouldn't say she 16 made -- for sure -- just trying to market our company. 17 Q: You would talk about your marketing 18 efforts in relations to people at the City? 19 A: And I was looking to her for kind of 20 somewhat direction on how she did it, or how I can apply it 21 to my life or my opportunity now. 22 Q: So, the answer is, yes, you talked to her 23 -- 24 A: Yes, yes. 25 Q: All right. And I'll go into it what you

1 just said right now. Irene had plenty of experience building 2 relationships, for example, with Mr. Andrew, at the Province? 3 A: I believe so, Mr. Manes. 4 Q: All right. And you looked -- you looked 5 to Irene for some guidance, in terms of how to carry on your 6 marketing efforts at the City, including building 7 relationships at the City? 8 A: I did look to her for more guidance than 9 not. 10 Q: All right. I take it you would have had 11 discussions with Irene about Mr. Nigro? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And building a relationship with Mr. 14 Nigro? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And her building a relationship with Mr. 17 Nigro? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And you would have discussions 20 about Mr. Andrew and building a relationship with him? 21 A: I'd probably look to her for direction on 22 my approach there. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right.

1 A: Sorry. 2 Q: What was your approach with respect to Mr. 3 Andrew? 4 A: Mr. Andrew was a very approachable guy. 5 MFP had, I believe, had a long history with him. And I 6 didn't really have to -- I shouldn't say I didn't have to do 7 very much, but he was a guy that people wanted to be in front 8 of, obviously. So -- 9 Q: Just in relation to Mr. Andrew, and I -- I 10 know we're in the context of Mr. Nigro and discussions, but, 11 in relation to Mr. Andrew, Mr. Wolfraim, agreed that Mr. 12 Andrew liked to be entertained. 13 Do you agree with that characterization? 14 A: Well, I don't know who entertains him or 15 who does what, really. I mean I enjoyed my time with Mr. 16 Andrew. 17 Q: Do you agree with that description that 18 Mr. Andrew likes to be entertained? 19 A: I don't know if I could -- I would see him 20 around, I guess, but I don't know if he liked to be 21 entertained. He may. 22 Q: All right. We'll come to that -- 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: -- when we talk about Mr. Andrew. And did 25 you also have discussions about Ms. Liczyk with Ms. Payne?

1 A: I believe I did. They didn't have -- 2 they weren't very successful in setting up meetings or 3 getting in front of Ms. Liczyk so I often heard her name. 4 Q: You talked about discussing your -- your 5 approach with Mr. Andrew -- about Mr. Andrew. Did you 6 discuss your approach regarding Ms. Liczyk with Irene? 7 A: I believe so. 8 Q: What was your approach? 9 A: Her being the Treasurer, we're going to 10 have get an idea on -- on how she feels about Y2K and IT, so 11 -- and their financial commitments. 12 Q: Did you discuss how you were going to go 13 about that? That's not exactly an approach. That's an 14 understanding why she was important to you but my question is 15 what was your approach in relation to Ms. Liczyk? 16 When I mean approach, how were you going to go 17 about it -- establi -- how were you going to go about 18 establishing a relationship with Ms. Liczyk in order to get 19 intelligence or -- or -- 20 A: I -- I -- I can't recall what we -- 21 Q: I -- 22 A: -- what we would have discussed there. 23 Q: You knew that Ms. Liczyk was notorious 24 for breaking dates and hard to -- hard to get to? 25 A: From what MFP folks --

1 Q: Yes. 2 A: -- our people said, yes. 3 Q: Mr. Nigro confirmed that with you when 4 you talked about Ms. Liczyk? 5 A: I don't know. I don't know that I -- I'd 6 asked him that. 7 Q: And when you say MFP folks, I take it 8 that includes Ms. Payne? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right and as you say, she had been 11 unsuccessful in -- 12 A: I think there was several MFP people that 13 were trying to set meetings up. 14 Q: All right. We discussed s -- some of 15 this last week. Did you -- with Mr. Nigro, did you discuss 16 how you were progressing in your relationships with Ms. 17 Liczyk, Mr. Jakobek, Mr. Andrew? 18 A: I'm sure. 19 Q: All right. Did you discuss the fact that 20 -- that you were developing a relationship with each of them? 21 A: In what time frame? 22 Q: This is to -- up to June the 11th, 1999. 23 A: I would have probably, definitely 24 discussed that with Vince. 25 Q: Would you, looking back in your mind's

1 eye, have left the impression with Mr. Nigro that you had 2 developed very strong relationships with Ms. Liczyk, Mr. 3 Andrew, Mr. Jakobek, in that period of time? 4 A: I don't believe I would have, no. 5 Q: All right. All right. Well, let me then 6 ask you some questions about -- about that -- that statement. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Wh -- which -- this is 8 up to June '99, is that -- 9 MR. RONALD MANES: This is before. Before 10 June 11th. Between the time -- 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: As he started and -- 12 MR. RONALD MANES: And June 11th, '99. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- June 11th? Okay. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 16 Q: Just limit us to that period -- 17 A: Sure. 18 Q: -- because we've already talked about 19 after that period -- 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: -- to a certain extent and we're just 22 trying to get some idea about the -- about the nature of that 23 relationship with these people during that period of time. 24 A: Now, you remember last week we went to 25 Tab 33. This is a May 6, 1999 e-mail or diary entry

1 regarding a haircut? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: I'm not going to take you all through Ms. 4 Liczyk's haircut with, I think you said he was your best 5 friend Gian Frank? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. At Fiorio's? 8 A: Yeah, everybody knows about Fiorio now. 9 Q: All right. I take it you've talked to 10 Mr. Frank? 11 A: Yeah, I did. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: City TV is in front of his salon. 14 Q: Now, you were friendly enough with Ms. 15 Liczyk that you were able to speak with her about 16 recommending a -- I think you said the best person in Toronto 17 to cut her hair? 18 A: I -- I probably would recommend Gian 19 Frank or -- if I met someone once, I don't have to be very 20 friendly to recommend someone there, so -- 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: -- I was probably pretty comfortable in 23 how I said it. 24 Q: All right. You gave evidence last week 25 that there were a number of hockey games, there was -- we

1 won't talk about how many, but several hockey games -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- meals -- 4 A: -- yes -- 5 Q: -- and drinks? 6 A: -- yes, yes. 7 Q: And you gave evidence last week that in 8 those entertainment events, that you did not discuss 9 business? 10 MR. WILLIAM ANDERSON: Well, excuse me, I 11 have a short objection, it has to do again with the time 12 frame, I'm not entirely certain whether or not the evidence 13 last week was restricted to the time frame up to June the 14 11th. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think that's fair, Mr. 16 Manes. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 19 Q: Okay, that's fair, in fact it wasn't 20 restricted, I think your evidence was that whenever there 21 were hockey games, meals and drinks, you didn't discuss 22 business? 23 A: I just attempted to let people enjoy 24 themselves and so -- 25 MR. WILLIAM ANDERSON: My objection was with

1 respect to the use of the word several. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well the several came up 3 last -- 4 MR. WILLIAM ANDERSON: Several hockey games, 5 yeah -- 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, then -- just hang 7 on here. 8 MR. WILLIAM ANDERSON: And again -- 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Hang on. What's your 10 objection about the use of the word several that did come up 11 last week? 12 MR. WILLIAM ANDERSON: That the several was 13 in reference to a longer period of time after June the 11th. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I guess what Mr. Domi is 15 saying that it doesn't really matter when it was. Whenever 16 it was, the hockey games, he wasn't talking business. So, 17 whether it was before June 11th or after June 11th, he wasn't 18 talking business with Ms. Liczyk, is that -- have I got that 19 right? 20 THE WITNESS: You -- yes. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: If I'm wrong, tell me 22 now. 23 THE WITNESS: No, no, you -- that's fine. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm not -- no, honestly, 25 I'm not trying to put words in your mouth --

1 THE WITNESS: No, that's fine. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- so if I've got that 3 wrong, you tell me. 4 THE WITNESS: That's fine. 5 MR. WILLIAM ANDERSON: It was my 6 understanding of the evidence that there were not several 7 hockey games prior to June the 11th, that there was in fact 8 just one (1). And I'm not sure that that's clear from the 9 record. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 12 Q: Whatever number of hockey games there 13 were during this period of time, whatever number of meals 14 there were, whatever number of drinks there were with Ms. 15 Liczyk, in this period of time, you did not discuss business? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: All right. And we'll get to this 18 expense, but April 24th, 2000, you had chartered a private 19 plane -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- to go to -- was that the Ottawa 22 Senators -- 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: -- Maple Leaf -- 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: -- game? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And we'll hear evidence about that -- 6 about the seven hundred dollar ($700) cheque that she gave 7 you, et cetera? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: I'm just asking you to confirm that she 10 was on that plane? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: You chartered and went to the Maple Leaf 13 game and came back? 14 A: I'm sorry, when year was that in? 15 Q: April 24th, 2000. 16 A: Okay. 17 Q: All right. And with respect to Ms. 18 Liczyk, did you attend what -- her unofficial fortieth 19 birthday party? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right, you -- that was in -- do you 22 remember when that was? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Do you remember where that was? 25 A: That was at her -- her home.

1 Q: Did Ms. Liczyk invite you directly? 2 A: You know, I can't remember really, who 3 invited. 4 Q: Was it a written invitation or a verbal 5 invitation; do you recall? 6 A: I -- I can't recall, I don't think it was 7 a written invitation. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: But I don't recall really. 10 Q: Did you take anybody? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. Did you -- can you tell me 13 where that birthday party was? 14 A: I already said it was at her home. 15 Q: When you say, you would say, do you have 16 a -- a recollection of it being in her home, or is that 17 something that you've heard or read somewhere else? 18 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Just, objection, he -- 19 he -- he already -- what he said is I already said it was at 20 her home, not that he would say it was at her home. 21 MR. RONALD MANES: I think the witness' exact 22 words were, I would say it was at her home and I was just 23 asking -- 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You've already asked him 25 just a --

1 MR. RONALD MANES: All right. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- minute ago or so, do 3 you remember where it was and he said at her home. 4 MR. RONALD MANES: Oh, all right. 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: So, you're asking him 6 again where it was. I don't know if you mean at her home or 7 the address? 8 You already asked him that and he said -- 9 MR. RONALD MANES: I've got that. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- that it was at her 11 home. 12 MR. RONALD MANES: All right. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 15 Q: When you say I would say it was at her 16 home, do you have a specific recollection that it was at her 17 home? 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: No, Mr. Manes -- 19 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes? 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- I think -- you asked 21 him -- well, let's go to the beginning of Ms. Liczyk, you 22 asked him with respect to -- or if he had attended her 23 unofficial birthday party and he said, yes. You asked him, 24 do you remember where it was. He said, at her home. And 25 then you asked him if she had invited you directly, and he

1 said he couldn't remember, and then a few more questions and 2 then you asked him, do you remember where it was. And he 3 said at her home, or whatever he said would have been at her 4 home, or whatever it was. But you'd already asked him that 5 question. 6 MR. RONALD MANES: I -- 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Did you -- I just want 8 to make sure you know you asked him the same question? 9 MR. RONALD MANES: I did -- 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 11 MR. RONALD MANES: -- I did. My -- there was 12 a -- I don't want to go into the reason that I asked him 13 again, but I just want to confirm with the witness that it's 14 from his own recollection that it was at his (sic) home as 15 compared to -- to what someone else told him. 16 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I didn't -- 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 19 Q: That's all right. 20 A: -- you lost me there. 21 Q: Do you have -- is it your own 22 recollection that you were at Ms. Liczyk's home for her 23 birthday party, or is -- is that something that you read or 24 heard somewhere else? 25 A: No, I -- I'd been there once, I recall

1 that one (1) time. 2 Q: The once that you had been there, is that 3 for the birthday party or was it -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- all right. Do you remember where, 6 without giving an address, but do you remember the area of 7 the City that Ms. Liczyk -- 8 A: I have absolutely no clue -- 9 Q: All right. 10 A: -- where she lives. Well, I think it's 11 in North York, but I -- I have no clue -- 12 Q: All right. 13 A: -- where that may be. 14 Q: Was it an apartment, a home? 15 A: I believe it was a home. 16 Q: All right. Do you remember how many 17 people were at this party? 18 A: Gees, I mean I'd be guessing, but I'd 19 say -- 20 Q: Best estimate? 21 A: -- eighty (80). 22 Q: All right. 23 A: Ninety (90). 24 Q: Now, was there anyone other than you, 25 from MFP, at her birthday party?

1 A: No. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Just out of curiosity, 3 when you went did you know that it was a birthday party that 4 you were going to? 5 THE WITNESS: I believe so, I just don't 6 know, Commissioner. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 9 Q: Well, just picking up on that last 10 question, did you bring a present? 11 A: I think I may have brought a bottle of 12 wine or something, but I'm not going to go anywhere empty 13 handed really. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: That's not... 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: This might seem like an odd question to 20 you, but bear with me on it. Do you remember if you would 21 have expensed that present? 22 A: I don't think so. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: I don't know, I mean, no. 25 Q: Why wouldn't you expense the present?

1 A: I just -- a bottle of wine, perhaps I 2 took from home, I have many. 3 Q: All right. Do you remember whether there 4 were any City people there that you knew? 5 A: Yeah, I didn't -- firstly, I don't recall 6 staying very long. But I think I -- I ended up speaking to - 7 - to Jim Andrew most of the evening. 8 Q: Do you remember if Lana Viinamae was 9 there? I'm not suggesting that -- that she was. I'm just 10 asking you -- 11 A: No, I can't recall that, no. 12 Q: All right, and Katherine Bulko, Paula 13 Leggieri, and -- 14 A: No. 15 Q: -- Line Marks? You remember they were 16 not there? 17 A: I -- I don't recall them being there -- 18 Q: All right. 19 A: -- no. 20 Q: So I take it the only one (1) you recall 21 from the City being there was Mr. Andrew? 22 A: Right, correct. 23 Q: Do you remember whether Mr. Godfrey was 24 there? 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Which one (1)?

1 MR. RONALD MANES: Paul Godfrey? 2 THE WITNESS: No. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 5 Q: He was not there? 6 A: No. 7 Q: All right. Rob Godfrey? 8 A: No. 9 Q: All right. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Would you agree with me that in respect to 14 Ms. Liczyk and Mr. Andrew and Mr. Jakobek, as time went on 15 your relationship with them became more friendly? 16 A: I'd have to agree with Mr. Andrew and Ms. 17 Liczyk. 18 Q: Mr. Jakobek's another matter? 19 A: He's a different animal. 20 Q: All right. We'll come to him then in a 21 second. 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: Let's talk about Mr. Andrew then. 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: From what I understand of your evidence it

1 was Mr. Andrew who had told you, at some point -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- that you had won the -- MFP had won the 4 -- 5 A: Correct, from what I recall it was Mr. 6 Andrew, yes. 7 Q: Remember we talked about the fact that Ms. 8 Payne was there? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. And then there was some 11 discussion about when that took place, I'm not going to go 12 back to that, but was there an official notice from the City 13 that you had been awarded the leasing contract or was the 14 communication through that meeting with Mr. Andrew? 15 A: I cannot recall an official awarding. I'd 16 have to say from what I can recall it was from Mr. Andrew 17 informing us. 18 Q: Now, in your expense account, and let me 19 just turn to -- I think the easiest way for us to do that is 20 -- Mr. Domi, let's turn to your Volume 1 -- 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: -- and I'm going to go by this expense 23 summary prepared by Commission Counsel. 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: And if you'll go to entry 102.

1 A: 102? 2 Q: Yes. That's in -- just give me a moment 3 and I'll go to it, as well. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Can you -- let me just describe this entry 8 for our record here. Entry 102, 11/04/1999. That's November 9 4th, 1999. 10 "Sixty seven dollars and fifty six cents 11 ($67.56), City/TO J. Andrew, P. Godfrey, 12 Cafe Victoria, breakfast." 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Can you tell us what -- this was about a 15 month or so after the contract was signed, at least October 16 1st -- 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: -- 1999. What was that -- what's that 19 entry all about? First of all, were you there at this 20 meeting? 21 A: Yes, I believe I was. 22 Q: Did you arrange this meeting? 23 A: I believe I did. 24 Q: What was the purpose of the arranging the 25 meeting?

1 A: I -- from what I recall, at the time it 2 was -- what month was this again, sorry? 3 Q: This was November the 4th, 1999. 4 A: I -- the only thing I can recall from 5 that was I think that Mr. Andrew was interested or -- in one 6 of the Commissioner's positions, I think and he wanted to 7 have a meeting with Mr. Godfrey, I believe, just to have a 8 chat. 9 Q: Did he approach you about arranging a 10 meeting with Mr. Godfrey or did you approach him? 11 A: I -- I can't recall, Mr. Manes, who 12 approached who, but someone must have approached somebody. 13 Q: How -- I take it you knew from Mr. Andrew 14 that he was int -- interested in one of the Commissioner's 15 positions? 16 A: I -- yeah, I re -- I don't recall which, 17 but I -- he was interested in something. 18 Q: Th -- that information came from Mr. 19 Andrew? In other words, Mr. Andrew was the one that told you 20 -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- interested in it? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And in the course of that conversation, 25 the -- Mr. Godfrey's name came up?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Do you recall whether you brought it up 3 or he brought it up? 4 A: I -- I just can not recall. 5 Q: Well, at this point, November 4th, 1999, 6 you were close enough with Mr. Andrew that he would share 7 that aspiration with you, wanting one of the Commissioner's 8 jobs. Do you agree? 9 A: He was a very friendly guy, I guess. He 10 must have, so -- at the time. 11 Q: All right. In any event, I take it after 12 that conversation and whoever brought the -- the name up, you 13 contacted Mr. Godfrey? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Mr. Andrew did not know Mr. Godfrey 16 personally? 17 A: He'd have to answer that. I d -- I don't 18 know that, Mr. Manes. I'm not sure. If he'd ever met him -- 19 I -- I don't know. 20 Q: Obviously, out of this conversation you 21 were the best person to contact Mr. Godfrey because you were 22 a friend of his? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. You told Mr. Andrew that -- 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: -- you were friends? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: Mr. Andrew knew or -- or would have 4 known, would he, that you were also friends with Rob Godfrey? 5 A: Yeah -- well, I shouldn't say yes. I -- 6 I don't know if he would have known that. 7 Q: In any event, it was -- it was Paul 8 Godfrey who you were friends with and who -- 9 A: Thank you. 10 Q: -- you were going to talk to about Mr. 11 Andrew's aspirations for a Commissioners position? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And did you then talk to Mr. Godfrey? 14 Paul Godfrey? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. What did you tell him? 17 A: I just asked him -- well, I'm sure I must 18 have asked him if we could have breakfast so -- if that's 19 what it was here. Cafe Victoria. 20 Q: Did he know who Mr. Andrew was? 21 A: I don't know. 22 Q: Did he know -- did you tell him why you 23 wanted him to meet with Mr. Andrew? 24 A: I may have told him that I had a client 25 of mine that I wanted to meet with him, introduce to him or

1 -- but I -- I don't know. 2 Q: But he would know that Mr. Andrew -- 3 before this lunch you would have told him that Mr. Andrew was 4 from the City? 5 A: I may have. 6 Q: You would have told him that he aspired 7 to a Commissioners job? 8 A: I -- I don't know if I briefed him before 9 I -- I got there. I mean, this -- 10 Q: Why did you do that favour for Mr. 11 Andrew? 12 A: He was a client. 13 Q: Well, you had many clients you told us 14 before, Mr. -- Mr. Domi; is that right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Well, was there something special about 17 Mr. Andrew that you would fix up a lunch with Mr. Godfrey? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Mr. Godfrey's a very important man, 20 agreed? 21 A: I -- I guess, yes, I agree. 22 Q: Mr. Godfrey's a very busy man? 23 A: He's -- he always made time for me. 24 Q: If it was important enough to you; 25 correct?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And this was important enough to you that 3 he made time for you -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- to go meet with Mr. Andrew? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Did you have some sense of what possible 10 assistance Mr. Godfrey could be to Mr. Andrew in achieving 11 the Commissioner's job? 12 A: No. No, I did not. 13 Q: You knew by that point, November 4th, 14 1999, that Mr. Godfrey was influential in the City? 15 A: I'd say. 16 Q: Influential with the Mayor? 17 A: I don't know if anybody's influential 18 with the Mayor, it's possible. 19 Q: Possible, all right. You would know at 20 that time that Mr. Lyons was a top lobbyist at the City? 21 A: I -- I knew he was a lobbyist, yes. 22 Q: Okay, well didn't -- we'll come to this, 23 didn't Mr. Nigro tell you that Mr. Lyons was the top 24 lobbyist? 25 A: He told me he was a lobbyist, but I mean

1 I don't know what a top lobbyist means, but definitely, yes, 2 he was -- he was -- he was visible at City Hall. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: You knew at that time that Mr. Lyons and 7 Mr. Godfrey were very friendly? 8 A: I -- I may have, yes, at the time. 9 Q: When you talked with Mr. Lyons or with 10 Mr. Godfrey about meeting with Mr. Andrew, did you talk about 11 what possibly Mr. Godfrey could do to use his influence to 12 help Mr. Andrew? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Was it at least your hope that there was 15 something Mr. Godfrey could do for Mr. Andrew? 16 A: I never really thought of it. He was -- 17 he was a client that wanted to have a meeting, and I just -- 18 being help -- tried to be helpful. 19 Q: He was a client. Let me -- let me ask 20 you something about that. The City of Toronto was your 21 client? 22 A: I -- yes. 23 Q: Mr. Andrew worked for the City of 24 Toronto? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: He was a key decision maker for the City 2 of Toronto in respect to IP (sic); right? 3 A: IT, yes. 4 Q: IT rather? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what he was meeting with Mr. Godfrey 7 about was his advancement at the City of Toronto, his 8 personal advancement; correct? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: You were doing Mr. Andrew a personal 11 favour? 12 A: I suppose you could characterize that. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And you agree with me that you hoped 17 something good would come out of that meeting, to assist Mr. 18 Andrew in achieving that -- 19 A: Sure. 20 Q: -- all right. Do you -- this meeting, 21 according to your expense summaries and chits, was at the 22 Cafe Victoria? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Where is that? 25 A: Royal York, excuse me, not the Royal York

1 -- 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: That other big one (1) 3 with the roof. 4 MR. RONALD MANES: Let me -- 5 THE WITNESS: King Edward. 6 MR. RONALD MANES: We understand it's the King 7 Eddy. 8 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 9 MR. RONALD MANES: All right. 10 THE WITNESS: It says, Royal on this, so I was 11 -- on the top of that. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 14 Q: Do you remember being there? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And the people that were 17 present was you and Vince, Paul Godfrey and Mr. Andrew? 18 A: I'm sorry, me and who? 19 Q: All right. Maybe I should ask the 20 question this way. Who was present at that breakfast? 21 A: I believe, Mr. Godfrey and Mr. Andrew and 22 myself. 23 Q: I said Vince and I mis-spoke myself. Mr. 24 Nigro was not there? 25 A: Not that I can recall, no.

1 Q: All right. Now, do you recall how long 2 that meeting was? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Best estimate, more than an hour? 5 A: No. 6 Q: All right. So everybody sits down, 7 introduce Jim to Paul? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And who starts the ball rolling? 10 A: I -- I just -- that was in 1999, I don't 11 really recall, Mr. Manes, perhaps myself. I don't know. 12 Since I tried to -- I'm sure I must have said something. 13 Q: Well, did you say something about the 14 reason for the meeting was that Mr. Andrew wanted to talk 15 about obtaining a Commissioner position at the City? 16 A: I don't believe I would say that. 17 Q: Somebody must have said it, that's what 18 you were all there for? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: So, if you didn't say it, it -- and Mr. 21 Godfrey didn't say it, then Mr. Andrew must have? 22 A: He may have -- he knew what -- because I 23 wouldn't know what Commissioners position or anything like 24 that, but he probably had more insight to his interest than I 25 would.

1 Q: Mr. Andrew would? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Of course. So, Mr. Andrew, said something 4 about wanting a Commissioner's position and do you recall 5 what response, if any, Mr. Godfrey made? 6 A: I can't really recall, it was just -- I 7 don't think we -- we talked about many things, I think, but 8 I'm not positive. But, I can't recall really. 9 Q: Well, there's usually small talk and 10 things like that and then you get down to business? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: Is that what happened here? 13 A: I'm assuming that that's what happened, 14 yes. 15 Q: All right. You don't have a specific 16 recollection, is what you're saying? 17 A: No, I do not. 18 Q: Did you talk to Mr. Andrew about this 19 meeting subsequent to the meeting? 20 A: I don't think so, no. 21 Q: Did you talk to Mr. Godfrey about this 22 meeting, subsequent to the meeting? 23 A: I don't believe I did. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 Q: Would it be fair to make an observation 2 that you expected Mr. Andrew to be grateful to you for 3 setting up the meeting in the first place? 4 A: Well, grateful -- I was just trying to -- 5 I don't know he doesn't -- I don't know about that one (1), 6 being grateful. 7 Q: All right. Let me put it in other words. 8 Would it be fair to say that you were just doing a friend a 9 favour? 10 A: Yeah, I was just doing a -- I was just 11 being -- trying to be helpful, if I could. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: There's been some evidence here about a 16 notation in 1999, in Irene Payne's documents, Volume 3, Tab 17 12. 18 A: Oh. 19 Q: Would you turn to -- 20 A: Sure. 21 Q: -- Volume 3, Tab 12. 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: I want to ask you about that. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 Q: Are -- are your pages numbered, Mr. Domi? 2 A: At the bottom right hand corner there. 3 Q: At the bottom there? All right. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Good. Could you turn to Page 13? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Now, there is an entry there and this is 8 an entry that is made by Ms. Payne's executive assistant, not 9 Ms. Payne, as we understand her evidence. Did you know her 10 executive assistant? 11 A: Ms. Vivaldo? 12 Q: Correct. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Now, I understand that Ms. Payne was 15 often difficult to -- to access and it -- would it be right 16 of me to -- to conclude from that that often you would have 17 discussions with Ms. Vivaldo if you wanted to get to see Ms. 18 Payne or communicate anything to her? 19 A: Yes, she didn't -- she didn't like -- I 20 wasn't one to go through her, but she didn't like it. I -- I 21 would, at times speak to her and at times go directly to 22 Irene. It's just -- 23 Q: Fine. 24 A: -- it's just my nature. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I -- I didn't know when

1 you said she didn't like, I don't know what she didn't like. 2 THE WITNESS: Ms. Vivaldo. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: She didn't like -- 4 THE WITNESS: She was -- she was -- what I 5 recall, she was kind of protective of Irene at the time. 6 MR. RONALD MANES: All right. 7 THE WITNESS: So. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 10 Q: Would you s -- say Ms. Vivaldo was -- was 11 competent as far as you're concerned? Organized? 12 A: I - I don't know. She -- she must have 13 been, working for Irene. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: So -- 16 Q: Let's go to that -- that notation there. 17 "October the 11th -" 18 Dash -- that's a hyphen -- dash and that's 19 either a line under it or a line through it. 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: And then: 22 "J. Andrew -- Andrews" 23 with an S 24 "(Hawaii) - Dash will pay." 25 A: Yeah.

1 Q: I understand that -- that -- from Ms. 2 Payne's evidence, she was arranging some work related program 3 in Hawaii. Do you know anything about that? 4 A: It was a sales conference. 5 Q: And when was that to take place in 6 Hawaii, do you remember? 7 A: Whew. I think my years are mixed up. I 8 think '99 at some point. 9 Q: This notation is a '99 notation. We've 10 at least determined that, because Ms. Payne was gone after 11 '99. 12 A: Oh, yes. Correct. 13 Q: That's right so we know -- 14 A: Okay. 15 Q: -- we know that. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And underneath that same notation, it 18 says, 19 "See Hodgson - getting the right people" 20 Wh -- was there a di -- was there a discussion 21 about -- with -- between you and Ms. -- Ms. Payne or did you 22 have some understanding of the company that -- that the 23 company was trying to arrange a sales conference in Hawaii 24 for a number of days and trying to get the right people 25 there?

1 A: I -- I don't know about getting the right 2 -- I took it as a sales conference. 3 Q: Were you asked to assist in -- in the 4 sales conference in any way? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Did you know of the sales conference from 7 Ms. Payne? 8 A: There was just a lot of chatter about it 9 within the -- the sales reps. 10 Q: There are some notations here and there 11 were discussions between your company and Ms. Liczyk about 12 Hawaii, and I'll get to those in a second. Did you ever have 13 a discussion with Ms. Liczyk about the possibility of her 14 attending this sales conference in Hawaii? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Did you ever have a discussion with Mr. 17 Andrew about him possibly attending a sales conference in 18 Hawaii? 19 A: No, not that I can recall, no. 20 Q: Do you have any explanation for this 21 notation, "Dash will pay", in relation to J. Andrews 22 (Hawaii)? 23 A: No, I think that's -- it was bizarre when 24 I saw it. 25 Q: When did you first see that?

1 A: When David had given me the -- Mr. Moore 2 had given me the -- we went over Irene's calendar. 3 Q: Are you saying that that would not have 4 -- that notation would not have arisen out of any 5 conversation that you had with Mrs. Vival -- with Ms. 6 Vivaldo? 7 A: I mean it's just, "Dash will pay," why? 8 Q: Well, I'm just asking -- 9 A: No. 10 Q: -- all right. 11 A: That's bizarre. I don't know if 12 bizarre's the right word, but that's how I feel about it. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Were there any discussions between you 17 and Ms. Payne about whether a particular expense should go on 18 the corporate account or your personal expense account? 19 A: We just never had that type of -- it 20 wasn't -- expenses had never been an issue, I never -- I 21 never heard anything. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: To this day. 24 Q: Do you know how -- 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, you never

1 heard anything to this day? 2 THE WITNESS: Regarding expenses at our 3 company, no. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 7 Q: Do you know how -- what the arrangements 8 were with your -- your brother and the box, in -- in terms of 9 who was to pay, how much to pay and whether it was going to 10 come off of your expense account or if it was some general 11 account at the company? 12 A: I'm sorry, it's my brother's box -- 13 Q: I -- 14 A: -- go ahead, I'm sorry. 15 Q: First of all, what were the arrangements 16 between your brother and MFP, regarding the rental of the 17 box? 18 A: I believe MFP signed a lease with my 19 brother's company. 20 Q: All right. Did that -- the cost of that 21 lease come off of your expense account? 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. Do you know where it was -- 24 how it was booked? 25 A: I have no clue.

1 Q: Were you involved in those discussions? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Well, you must have been involved at 4 least to the extent that you must have arranged -- made that 5 leasing arrangement between MFP and -- and your brother's 6 company? 7 A: I just had documents from my brother's 8 company and I handed it to someone at MFP. 9 Q: All right. Whose idea was it to rent the 10 box? 11 A: I believe I may have took Irene down to a 12 game, or somebody from MFP, and they just liked it and -- 13 Q: Whose idea was it to rent the box? 14 A: I don't know -- 15 Q: All right, was it possible that it was 16 your idea? 17 A: To rent the box? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: I mean I would -- I would definitely say 20 it was a good thing for us. 21 Q: Was that part of your marketing plan, 22 using that box to entertain clients? 23 A: I'm sure it was part of Irene's plan. 24 Q: I'm asking about your plan, was it part of 25 your marketing plan to entertain clients at the box?

1 A: If I could, sure. 2 Q: All right. So, getting back to this 3 notation, Dash will pay, you said that that is -- that was 4 bizarre and you have no information about how that -- 5 A: No -- 6 Q: -- came about? 7 A: It was a sales conference, I don't know 8 why I would -- I mean everyone's -- nobody that's going there 9 is paying, why would I be paying? Makes no sense. 10 Q: All right. Well, we're at the point with 11 Mr. Andrew where it was Mr. Andrew who told you that you'd 12 won, you arranged that breakfast with Mr. Godfrey to assist 13 Mr. Andrew, you don't know how this notation came about, in 14 late December, December the 23rd according to your expense 15 account, you bought a Cartier pen? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. 18 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: The year was 2000. 19 MR. RONALD MANES: 2000. 20 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: Different year. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 22 MR. RONALD MANES: December 23rd, 2000. 23 THE WITNESS: Correct. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES:

1 Q: And let's go to that entry in your 2 expenses, if we could. 3 A: Okay. Which Volume is that in, 1 or 2? 4 Q: Keep that Volume 1 in front of you, Volume 5 1 of your expenses, Mr. Domi. 6 A: Okay. 7 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: It's Volume 2 -- 8 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes, I'm just -- 9 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: -- Volume 2 expenses. 10 MR. RONALD MANES: -- I'm just going, if I 11 can, at this point, Mr. MacKenzie, I am just going to the 12 entry prepared by Commission Counsel, not to the actual 13 expense at this point. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 16 Q: And I'd like to turn to 129, entry 129 of 17 the year 2000. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: It's in Volume 2. 19 THE WITNESS: Expense -- 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Do you recall, Mr. Manes, 21 that last week we had this issue, the books have all been 22 redone and they've been done according to year, I gather. 23 So, and remember you had something that was a 24 little different than the rest of ours. In any event, it's 25 Volume 2.

1 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, yes, fine. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And it's at what number? 3 MR. RONALD MANES: 129. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MR. RONALD MANES: You see that the difficulty 9 I have with doing it this way, Commissioner, is that's the -- 10 that's the slip, the summary of which is at the index in 11 front. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Of Volume 2. 13 14 CONTINUED BY RONALD MANES: 15 Q: Volume 2. So, if you go to the index in 16 front -- 17 A: Okay. 18 Q: -- and we'll look at the slip, as well. 19 And go to entry 129 -- 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: 25919, please, Mr. Manes? 21 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 24 Q: Now, that's December 23rd, 2000: 25 "Eight hundred and five dollars ($805.00),

1 City/TO, Henry Birk's and Sons, 2 (Yorkville), Cartier pen." 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: Now, on the actual slip, the receipt your 5 Visa receipt at Tab 129, there is nothing as I -- it's hard 6 to see, but do you see anything there about City of Toronto? 7 A: No, I don't see anything, no. 8 Q: Who would have made -- who would have put 9 in your expense account or your expense summary would have 10 put City of Toronto in? Did you prepare that or did someone 11 else prepare it? 12 A: No, I didn't -- I did not prepare it. 13 Q: All right. Who would have prepared that? 14 A: A guy that worked with me by the name of 15 Sandy Pessione. 16 Q: All right. Now, this is the receipt for 17 your purchase of a -- of the Cartier pen -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- for eight hundred and five dollars 20 ($805) and that you purchased that for the purpose of giving 21 it to Mr. Andrew? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: I take it that you told Mr. Pessione that 24 so that he entered City of Toronto? 25 A: I -- I -- I may have told him because he

1 knows Jim, Mr. Andrew. 2 Q: Did you tell him you were buying a pen 3 for Mr. Andrew? 4 A: I can't recall telling that, no. 5 Q: Well, you gave him a slip -- I take it 6 you gave him this slip -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- 25919 for eight hundred and five 9 dollars ($805). Did he not ask you, well what's that for 10 from Henry Birk's? 11 A: I can't recall. He may have, but I -- I 12 just -- I'm not certain of that. 13 Q: Well, if he didn't ask you and he didn't 14 otherwise know, it would just have been a good guess. 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: Actually, on your expenses it says City 17 of Toronto. This wasn't really for the City of Toronto, it 18 was really for Mr. Andrew personally that you bought this 19 pen? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: What did Mr. Andrew do to deserve this 22 pen? 23 A: He -- he was -- he was our client and I 24 just bought him the pen. 25 Q: All right. Well, the City of Toronto was

1 your client. 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: Mr. Andrew worked for the City of 4 Toronto. 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: All right. So this pen was a personal 7 gift from you to Mr. Andrew? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you expensed it through MFP? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: So it was a gift from you, yes, but from 12 MFP as well? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right and what did Mr. Andrew do 15 personally for you and MFP to deserve a eight hundred dollar 16 ($800) Cartier pen? 17 A: He was just our client. 18 Q: Ms. -- 19 A: City of Toronto. Pardon? 20 Q: Ms. Liczyk was your client? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Did you give her a pen? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Ms. Viinamae was your client, did you 25 give her a pen?

1 A: No. 2 Q: Mr. Jakobek, did you consider him, as the 3 Budget Chief, your client? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Did you give him a pen? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Did you give a gift -- first of all, do 8 you consider this pen a gift? 9 A: Yeah. I -- I consider it a gift. 10 Q: All right. Did you give a gift to anyone 11 else in the City of Toronto that anywhere near approximated 12 an eight hundred dollar ($800) Cartier pen? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. What made Mr. Andrew unique 15 in that regard, in respect to your gift giving? 16 A: I just felt he was a CIO and I just gave 17 him the pen. 18 Q: All right. Well, I want to understand 19 this in t -- in terms of your relationship. It was Mr. 20 Andrew who told you that you'd won. Mr. Andrew who you'd 21 arranged the Godfrey meeting with. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Mr. Andrew who you gave this gold pen to. 24 Especially with respect to the Godfrey meeting and the gold 25 pen, I guess what I'm wondering is why would you be doing

1 these kinds of favours for Mr. Andrew, a City employee? 2 A: I chose to buy him a pen. 3 Q: You assumed that he would be grateful for 4 receiving such an expensive and beautiful pen, I -- 5 A: Well, I don't know. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I assumed he -- he'd may be. It was my 8 choice to do that. 9 Q: Yes. I'm not -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- we -- we -- we do know that Mr. Andrew 12 sent it back -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- after a couple of weeks but I'm just 15 talking about -- 16 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: I don't know if it's 17 fair to say after a couple of weeks. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: He said a couple of 19 weeks. 20 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. 21 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: That's not fair. That's 22 not the evidence. 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, there is no 24 evidence. 25 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: No, I know, that's the

1 point. But Mr. Manes is giving in the evidence that it was 2 in a couple of weeks -- 3 MR. RONALD MANES: Well -- 4 MR. HUGH MACKENZIE: -- that is not Mr. 5 Andrew's evidence, Mr. Andrew will say that -- 6 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, just a minute -- 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: But just hang on, both 8 of you. 9 It's nobody's evidence at this point, the only 10 evidence there is is what comes in the box. At this 11 particular point all we know is that Mr. Andrew gave it back. 12 Mr. Domi, do you know how long it took before you got it 13 back? 14 THE WITNESS: Commissioner, I can't recall 15 how soon after. I mean the next time I saw him -- I -- I 16 can't give you whether it was two (2) days or two (2) weeks 17 or -- 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 19 THE WITNESS: -- I have no idea. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 22 Q: And remember when you talked with 23 Commission Counsel about your expenses -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- and in particular this expense. Do

1 you remember whether at that time you had a recollection of 2 how long it was when you received the pen back? 3 A: It was probably at some point the next 4 time I saw him, but I don't know how soon after it was. He 5 made a point of telling me that he wanted to, and that's 6 fine. 7 Q: All right. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Is that when you got it 9 back, did he give it to you personally back, or did he send 10 it to you? 11 THE WITNESS: You know, Commissioner, I can't 12 remember. I think I may have -- he may have given it back to 13 me. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Personally you mean? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 19 Q: Now, this -- although I can't read it, 20 but this is apparently dated December 23rd, this purchase at 21 Birk's? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: So, I take it this is a -- a Christmas 24 gift? 25 A: I -- I believe so.

1 Q: All right, I don't want to put any words 2 in your mouth or I will get Mr. MacKenzie -- 3 A: It was the 23rd, that's probably what it 4 was; yes. 5 Q: All right. Do you recall that Mr. Andrew 6 returned the pen after Christmas? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. Do you recall whether he 9 returned the pen in the New Year? 10 A: I -- I just -- it's possible, I just 11 can't -- yeah. 12 Q: Do you remember whether you were even in 13 the office between December 23rd and -- and the next business 14 day in -- in January? 15 A: Which office? 16 Q: In M -- at MFP? 17 A: Say that again, sorry? 18 Q: Do you remember whether you were even in 19 the office from December 23rd to the first week in January? 20 A: I'm sure I was. 21 Q: All right. Do you remember whether Mr. 22 Andrew in any event, at some point, called you to tell you 23 that there was something about the pen, or did you see him, 24 do you remember how that happened? 25 A: I can't recall, Mr. Manes. He -- he --

1 he must have called me, but I just -- 2 Q: In any event, whenever it was that Mr. 3 Andrew returned the pen, do you recall the conversation, and 4 in specific, the reasons that he returned the pen? 5 A: He just -- no, I -- I -- I can't recall 6 specific reasons, but he probably said it was -- 7 Q: Well, let's hold on there -- 8 A: Okay. 9 Q: -- do you have a specific recollection of 10 what Mr. Andrew told you? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Now you said he probably told you, what 13 -- what is it that he probably told you? 14 A: I -- I don't -- actually I just -- I 15 cannot recall what he said regarding this pen, but I -- he 16 felt perhaps it was -- maybe he felt uncomfortable with it, I 17 don't know, I have no idea. 18 Q: Why do you say that? 19 A: Well, because he returned it. I mean I 20 -- I had no issue with it. 21 Q: Why would you think that he might feel 22 uncomfortable with it? 23 A: I don't know. 24 Q: When you -- when you made the gift to 25 him, did you feel uncomfortable in giving it?

1 A: No. 2 Q: And to get back to my point to you, this 3 was a Christmas gift, this was an expensive pen; yes? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: You hoped he would be appreciative of -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- receiving that? Right. 8 MR. RONALD MANES: It's past 11:30 -- 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 10 MR. RONALD MANES: -- almost twenty (20) to, 11 Commissioner. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Why don't we come back 13 at -- well, it's in between, so let's say twelve o'clock. 14 THE REGISTRAR: Order. The Inquiry will 15 recess until twelve o'clock. 16 17 --- Upon recessing at 11:38 a.m. 18 19 --- Upon resuming at 11:58 a.m. 20 21 THE REGISTRAR: The inquiry will resume, 22 please be seated. 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr. Manes...? 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 2 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 3 Q: Mr. Domi, the -- would you turn to Tab 4 129, and that's in your Volume 2 and that's the document 5 25919, that's the Henry Birk's and Sons purchase of the pen? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: I had a discussion with Mr. MacKenzie, at 8 the break -- 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Just so you know, Mr. 10 MacKenzie is Jim Andrew's lawyer. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 14 Q: And he pointed something out to me, and 15 this relates, as well, to the time in which Mr. Andrew 16 contacted you about this pen. And he pointed out that, 17 although it's very hard to read, that if you look at the very 18 bottom of this slip, Birk's slip, you'll see 12-12 -- 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Zero zero (00). 20 MR. RONALD MANES: Zero zero (00). Might I 21 have a moment? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES:

1 Q: I'm advised that this particular slip, is 2 not in respect to the pen that you gave to Mr. Andrew. That 3 this slip is for something else, but that you did give Mr. 4 Andrew a pen, it was as far as we know from Birk's, but it 5 was December 23rd, 1999. 6 Now, that is what I understand Mr. Andrew is 7 going to testify to. Let's forget this slip for a moment and 8 tell me, do you remember whether you gave Mr. Andrew that pen 9 in 1999 or in 2000? 10 A: I can't remember. 11 Q: And if Mr. Andrew testifies that it was 12 December 23rd, on or about there, of 1999 that he received 13 that -- that pen, would you have a basis for disagreeing with 14 that? 15 A: I gave him a pen. Exactly when it was, I 16 don't know. 17 Q: Assuming for a moment, it was December 18 23rd or around there, 1999. That would be about a month and 19 a half after the Godfrey King Eddy meeting, correct? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And that would be after Mr. Andrew told 22 you that he -- that MFP had won? 23 A: I believe so. 24 Q: Did the pen -- giving the pen have any 25 relation to MFP winning the RFQ?

1 A: No. 2 Q: Is it your evidence that this was a 3 purely personal gift from you to Mr. Andrew? 4 A: Correct. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Let's talk about your relationship with 9 Mr. Jakobek. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: Did Mr. Nigro introduce you to Mr. 12 Jakobek? 13 A: I don't remember, Mr. Manes, if Mr. Nigro 14 actually made the initial introduction. 15 Q: When I say introduce, I mean either by 16 way of contacting Mr. Jakobek and saying that you'd call or 17 meeting in the hallway or any way in which Mr. Nigro -- 18 A: He may have, yes. 19 Q: Did M -- Mr. Nigro introduce you to Ms. 20 Liczyk or Mr. Andrew? Do you remember? 21 A: No, not that I've -- I can recall. 22 Q: All right. Would you have met with Mr. 23 Jakobek or spoken with him frequently throughout the period 24 of your relationship with him? 25 A: I --- I attempted to, yes.

1 Q: Were you successful? 2 A: He was always very short with me. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: He was always very what? 4 THE WITNESS: Very short. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 7 Q: Well, again we're trying to get an 8 understanding -- 9 A: Okay. 10 Q: -- of the nature of your relationship 11 with Mr. Andrew -- or Mr. Jakobek and why you had a strong 12 relationship with him. 13 In September of 2000, did Mr. Jakobek invite 14 you to play golf at the Toronto Hunt Club? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Did he invite anyone else to play golf in 17 -- with him and you? 18 A: Actually, I -- I'm not exactly sure how 19 or who had set that up, but I believe it was Mr. Jakobek. 20 Q: Who set it up? 21 A: I -- I believe he did. 22 Q: All right. Let me help you on this. 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: Ms. Liczyk played golf -- 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: -- on that day? And Jim Andrew played 2 golf -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- on that day? 5 A: When was this again? I'm sorry. 6 Q: This was in September 2000. 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: All right. Do you remember playing golf 9 at the Toronto Hunt Club with Mr. Jakobek, Ms. Liczyk, Mr. 10 Andrew? 11 A: I remember going there, yes. Golfing. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: I'm not golfer, so. 14 Q: Well, you played all -- did you play nine 15 (9) holes or eighteen (18) holes? Do you remember? 16 A: A small course, I remember, but one (1) 17 thing I remember about it was the story they had told us 18 about Ronald Reagan golfing there or something, so -- 19 Q: Ronald Reagan golfing there? 20 A: Ronald Reagan or I don't know, something 21 like that, but -- 22 Q: In fact it was Mr. Jakobek who told you 23 that story? 24 A: There was another gentleman with us, who 25 was -- I don't know -- actually I don't know who was a member

1 there, or if you've got to be a member, I have no idea. 2 Q: Well, what was the other fellow doing 3 there? 4 A: I don't know, he was just an older 5 fellow, but I don't know who he was. 6 Q: Well, much older, I understand -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And he sort of tagged along, did he? 9 A: Yeah, I believe he did. 10 Q: All right. Perhaps he was the member, 11 was Mr. Jakobek a member of the Toronto Hunt Club? 12 A: I have no idea. 13 Q: All right. Why did -- well, let me, 14 before I ask you that question. I understand that after the 15 golf game, Mr. Jakobek invited Ms. Liczyk and Mr. Andrew and 16 yourself back to his home? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: For drinks? So, am I to take it that 19 whatever amount of golf you played, or attending at Mr. 20 Jakobek's home, this took most of the day? 21 A: Actually, not really. Like, it was 22 pretty -- pretty quick. 23 Q: Well then I have to ask again, especially 24 by virtue of the fact that you're not much of a golfer from 25 what you say?

1 A: Yes, I'm not. 2 Q: Was it nine (9) holes or eighteen (18) 3 holes, do you remember? 4 A: I think it was nine (9). 5 Q: All right. 6 A: It was a small course, I don't know how 7 far the course went or anything like that, but I think we 8 golfed -- it was a short game. 9 Q: Morning or afternoon, do you remember? 10 A: I don't know. 11 Q: Okay. Now, why do you think that Mr. 12 Jakobek invited you to play golf with him? 13 A: I had perhaps put several invites out to 14 him for different things, I don't know. 15 Q: Anything Mr. Jakobek said to you that 16 day -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: -- to give you a specific idea why you 19 were there? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did Mr. Jakobek say anything about why he 22 invited Ms. Liczyk or Mr. Andrew? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Did you all talk about, that is you, Ms. 25 Liczyk, Mr. Andrew, did you all have a conversation before or

1 after or even during this golf game, as to why Mr. Jakobek 2 invited you out as a group? 3 A: Not -- I just can't really recall exactly 4 what the purpose was, but I definitely liked being in that 5 company. 6 Q: Why is that? 7 A: Well, just -- just people I'd like to 8 understand at the City, and -- 9 Q: Well, all three (3) people, Ms. Liczyk, 10 Mr. Andrew and Mr. Jakobek, by that time you had strong 11 relationships with? 12 Do you remember talking business? 13 A: I really can't recall what -- I mean, I 14 was more of a listener to the -- they all are -- know their 15 business and I'm probably just a listener. 16 Q: Well -- 17 A: What they're discussing, or... 18 Q: -- I'm not suggesting this happened, but 19 would you remember that, for example, that Mr. Jakobek and 20 Ms. Liczyk talked numbers? 21 A: No, I -- I -- 22 Q: It wasn't that kind of a occasion? 23 A: I don't rem -- no, I don't remember 24 exactly. 25 Q: Was it your impression from that day,

1 that this was purely social? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Was there any talking politics, from what 4 you can recall? 5 A: They -- they did a lot of talking and 6 I -- 7 Q: Did a lot of listening? 8 A: -- I did a lot of listening. 9 Q: So, who's the they that did a lot of 10 talking about politics? 11 A: I don't know, I mean they -- they all 12 know their business, I -- I don't know who -- who knows more 13 or who knows what, but -- 14 Q: Well, did Mr. Jakobek have discussions 15 with Ms. Liczyk about political things? 16 A: I am assuming that they did, yes. 17 Q: Do you have a -- a recollection of that? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Same thing with Andrew? 20 A: Yes -- I just -- 21 Q: Mr. Andrew? Did Mr. Jakobek talk at all 22 about his future intentions? 23 A: No, not that I can remember, no. 24 Q: His political intentions? Did he say 25 anything about his intention to run for City Council for

1 another term? 2 A: Don't know. 3 Q: Well, it was very nice of Mr. Jakobek to 4 invite you back -- you all back to his house, wasn't it? 5 A: Yeah, actually it was -- I wasn't going to 6 say no. 7 Q: All right. This was the first time ever 8 being to Mr. Jakobek's house? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: How about Ms. Liczyk, was that the first 11 time she'd ever been to Mr. Jakobek's house? 12 A: I don't know. 13 Q: Well, maybe the discussions you had with 14 Ms. Liczyk subsequent to September 2000, or with Mr. Andrew, 15 didn't somebody say anything about that golf game or being 16 invited back to Mr. Jakobek's house? 17 A: That somebody being? 18 Q: Anybody, you or Ms. Liczyk or Mr. Andrew, 19 make some comment about wasn't that a nice thing, wasn't that 20 an odd thing, what do you think was on his mind, anything 21 like that? Any comment? 22 A: I really can't recall actually any 23 comments regarding -- back then. 24 Q: Well, from your point of view, in your 25 mind, did you think hearing nothing to the contrary, that Mr.

1 Jakobek was doing this as a -- not only a social thing, but a 2 friendly gesture? A gesture to you, Ms. Liczyk and Mr. 3 Andrew? 4 A: It's possible, yes. 5 Q: Did you have any sense as to why Mr. 6 Jakobek would invite you along with two (2) City employees, 7 Ms. Liczyk and Mr. Andrew? 8 A: I don't really know. It was -- I perhaps 9 extended many invitations to him and the three (3) of them 10 to, I don't know, a function or something, but I'm not 11 exactly clear on what was the purpose for it from anyone's 12 point of view. From their point of view, anyway. 13 Q: So, it would just be speculation on your 14 part? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Do you -- do you remember whether during 17 that day or time, the golf course, house, that there was any 18 discussion of Paul Godfrey? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Do you remember there was no discussion of 21 Paul Godfrey, or you don't remember? 22 A: I don't recall any discussion regarding 23 Paul Godfrey. <