1 2 3 TORONTO COMPUTER LEASING INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE MADAM JUSTICE DENISE BELLAMY, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: East York Civic Centre 17 850 Coxwell Avenue 18 Toronto, Ontario 19 M4C 5R1 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 January 20th, 2003 25

2
  1                        APPEARANCES
  2  Ronald Manes            )Commission Counsel 
  3  Patrick Moore  (np)     )
  4  Daina Groskaufmanis     ) 
  5  Linda Rothstein         )City of Toronto 
  6  Lily Harmer    (np)     )
  7  Robert Centa            )
  8  Gordon Capern  (np)     )
  9  David Moore             )MFP 
 10  Fraser Berrill (np)     ) 
 11  Ken Jones (np)          ) 
 12  Brian Heller   (np)     )Ball Hsu and Associates Ltd.
 13  Melissa Kronick (np)    )CUPE 
 14  Raj Anand (np)          )Lana Viinamae
 15  Bay Ryley               )
 16  William Anderson        )Wanda Liczyk
 17  Valerie Dyer   (np)     )Dell Computers
 18  Jennifer Lynch (np)     )
 19  Edward Greenspan (np)   )Jeff Lyons
 20  Todd White (np)         )
 21  Hugh MacKenzie          )Jim Andrew
 22  Paul Cavalluzzo         )Dash Domi
 23  Benjamin Barnes (np)    )
 24  
 25  Joyce Ihamaki           )Registrar

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 4 VINCE NIGRO, Resumed 5 Continued Examination-in-Chief 6 by Mr. Ronald Manes 4 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Paul Cavalluzzo 69 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Hugh MacKenzie 111 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. William Anderson 124 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Linda Rothstein 137 11 12 Certificate of Transcript 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 10:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: The inquiry is now in 4 session. Please be seated. 5 6 VINCE NIGRO, Resumed 7 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Abella, would you be 9 kind enough to ask Bill if he could have the heat turned up 10 please. It's freezing in here. 11 Good morning, Mr. Nigro. 12 THE WITNESS: Morning. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. Mr. Manes...? 14 15 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. RONALD MANES: 16 Q: Good morning, Mr. Nigro. 17 A: Good morning. 18 Q: We left off Thursday on your expenses, 19 didn't really go into them at any length, but did want to ask 20 you some questions about them. 21 So, if you could turn to the expense summary, 22 Mr. Nigro, and that would be in Volume 1, number -- number 23 three (3), September 16th, 2000: 24 "TEGH,[that's Toronto East General 25 Hospital] at Milwaukee's, twenty dollars

1 and twenty five cents ($20.25)." 2 At that point, as I understand it, Mr. 3 Jakobek, had become the CEO of the Hospital, in around April 4 2000. Did that entry arise -- that expense arise out of 5 discussions with Mr. Jakobek? 6 A: No, it did not. I just used that entry. 7 Q: Used that entry for what, sir? 8 A: Just convenient to use Toronto East 9 General -- whoever I was with, I can't recall what I 10 discussed, but I may have talked about the Hospital. 11 Q: Looking at that entry, are you recalling 12 now that you were not with anyone from Toronto East General 13 Hospital? 14 A: I can't recall. 15 Q: All right. You said in your evidence last 16 week that you had a cordial relationship with Mr. Jakobek. 17 Do you recall saying that? 18 A: Yes, I did. 19 Q: When Mr. Jakobek did not run for re- 20 election and took this job at Toronto East General Hospital, 21 did you continue that cordial relationship with him during 22 that period? 23 A: A little bit, yes. 24 Q: When you say, "a little bit", in what 25 respect?

1 A: Well, we did stay -- we would chat 2 occasionally. 3 Q: What would be the subject of your chats, 4 if you were to take your mind's eye back to that period of 5 time? 6 A: Nothing specific, just staying in touch. 7 Q: Well, would he call you or would you call 8 him? 9 A: No, I guess at one (1) point within the 10 company, I called him, but -- no, it was just generally, 11 nothing specific. 12 Q: When you say, "within the company I called 13 him," do you mean that you called him -- 14 A: MFP asked me if I knew him and to explore 15 any possible business at Toronto East General. 16 Q: Who was that that asked you to do that? 17 A: I think it was Mike Flanagan, at the time. 18 Q: Mr. Domi would have know that you -- 19 A: Yes -- 20 Q: -- knew him? 21 A: -- yes. 22 Q: Were you trying to do business with -- 23 A: Well, Mike Flanagan -- 24 Q: -- Mr. Jakobek. 25 A: -- Mike Flanagan, I -- I think MFP had

1 boughten a medical company or had some relation with a 2 medical company and they asked me to explore any possible 3 business there, which I was put in touch with some of the IT 4 and their procurement people. 5 Q: I thought you said last week you didn't 6 know anything about IT? 7 A: No, I didn't. They -- they asked -- MFP 8 asked me to speak to Jakobek to see if there were any 9 possibilities -- 10 Q: I see. 11 A: -- at Toronto East General Hospital on 12 the IT side and on the perc -- procurement side. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Procurement of what? 17 A: Whatever was on a possibility of leasing. 18 Equipment -- 19 Q: So you made that contact with Mr. 20 Jakobek? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And did he put you in touch with s -- 23 with -- 24 A: IT. 25 Q: -- people from IT --

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- and procurement? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Both of those? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Did you keep in touch with Mr. Jakobek as 7 you were establishing -- 8 A: Not really. We -- we just continued a 9 bit of a relationship with -- you know, there were several 10 meetings with Mike Flanagan and MFP staff in terms of going 11 to visit and see if there were any potential opportunities 12 there. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: At this particular entry, Number 3, for 17 example, that you say was not -- 18 A: It was just a convenient expense item to 19 put there. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Nigro, I wonder if I 21 Might just help out a little bit here. You -- I'm going to 22 start calling you Radar soon if you keep ask -- answering -- 23 just like in the -- the Ma -- in M.A.S.H. because I think 24 what's happening is Mr. Manes is asking you the questions and 25 you're answering before he even has the chance to get them

1 out. So it may -- 2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: No, no. Don't worry 4 about it. A lot of people do this. It may very well be that 5 you know what he's going to ask you but I don't necessarily 6 know what he's going to ask you. So if you would be good 7 enough to wait until he finishes his question, that would 8 make it a lot easier for me. All right? 9 MR. RONALD MANES: Thank you. Thank you. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Thanks. Yes, Mr. Manes. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 13 Q: So Number 3, that entry at Milwaukee's 14 was not with anyone at T -- Toronto East General Hospital. 15 Is that what you're saying? 16 A: I -- I don't recall that now. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: This would be -- I need to -- let me put 21 the question this way. You started at MFP in September of 22 2000, correct? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: Let me just take you to t -- back to 25 Number 1. If I unders -- so I can understand your -- your

1 evidence here. 2 Number 1 is 3 "September 7th, 2000 in the amount seventy- 4 three dollars and fifty cents ($73.50), 5 City of Toronto, Vinnie Zuchinnis, meal." 6 Is it your evidence that there was no meal at 7 -- involving the City of Toronto on September 7, 2000? 8 A: Well, it's an expense in terms of the -- 9 my interpretation of how the company put it to me, or -- or 10 the people, that I could expense. There was nobody from the 11 City of Toronto at that particular -- 12 Q: All right. D -- do you know who was 13 there? 14 A: I can't recall. 15 Q: W -- it -- I just t -- 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Is there something you 17 remember? 18 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 21 Q: Just an observation that it seems that 22 from the very first time that -- the very first time that you 23 put an expense request at MFP, right from the very beginning 24 these entries are not true. 25 A: Th -- the expenses are true. It was a

1 way to be reimbursed, I guess. I mean, I -- I was told to -- 2 to put that down. I -- you know, it was -- I needed 3 something to put down. 4 Q: When you say the expenses are true, 5 you're saying that you did have a meal with someone, at 6 Vinnie Zuchinnis for seventy three dollars and fifty cents 7 ($73.50)? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: It just wasn't anything to do with City of 10 Toronto? 11 A: I don't recall. I mean could have some 12 discussion of the City of Toronto or something about it, but, 13 I don't -- I don't recall. 14 Q: Is it your interpretation of the policy at 15 MFP, that if you have a discussion about the City of Toronto 16 with anybody, that you can expense that meal as a legitimate 17 business expense? 18 A: That was my impression, yes. 19 Q: Where did you get that impression? 20 A: From people like Dash and others. 21 Q: I suggest you take a hypothetical if I'm a 22 good friend of yours -- let's take a better hypothetical, you 23 go out with your -- your family and you bring up Mr. 24 Jakobek's name. 25 By your interpretation of MFP's policy, you

1 could charge that to MFP as a legitimate business expense? 2 A: That's the impression that I had. 3 Q: And you say you got that impression from 4 Dash Domi and others? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. So, if we go to number 3, is 7 it possible to interpret number 3, that's September 16th, 8 2000, Toronto East General Hospital, at Milwaukee's as an 9 occasion where -- although you can't remember who you were 10 with, you might have discussed something to do with Toronto 11 East General Hospital? 12 A: It's possible. 13 Q: And then again, it's possible that that 14 entry has nothing whatsoever to do with Toronto East General 15 Hospital? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: I see. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Could we go down to number 10? September 22 24th, 2000: 23 "Four hundred and twelve dollars and 24 seventy five cents ($412.75), MFP Tom 25 Jakobek, TEGH, Vinnie Zuchinnis lunch."

1 Did you have lunch with Mr. Jakobek on behalf 2 of MFP, regarding Toronto East General Hospital on September 3 24th, 2000 at Vinnie Zuchinnis? 4 A: I invited him and his family and he did 5 not show. 6 Q: Who were you with? 7 A: I was with my family and some other 8 people. 9 Q: What other people? 10 A: Just some friends. 11 Q: Friends of your family? 12 A: Yes, yes. 13 Q: Could you give us the circumstances 14 surrounding that? 15 A: Well, I had invited him and his family, 16 hoping that I would -- you know, in a family type 17 environment, just to meet with him and things of that nature 18 and just explore any possibility at East General. 19 Q: Did you make the arrangements directly 20 with Mr. Jakobek? 21 A: I can't recall if it was through him or 22 through his secretary. 23 Q: In any event, did Mr. Jakobek, himself or 24 through his secretary agree that your families would get 25 together on September 24th, 2000, at Vinnie Zuchinnis?

1 A: I had invited him -- I told him my family 2 was going to be there and I invited him and his family. 3 Q: And did he accept personally or through -- 4 A: I was under the assumption that he was 5 going to show up. 6 Q: But, I'm asking a more particular 7 question. To the best of your recollection, did Mr. Jakobek 8 through his secretary or himself, accept your invitation for 9 that family lunch at Vinnie Zuchinnis? 10 A: I can't recall a hundred percent, but I 11 think he did. 12 Q: And is it your evidence then that 13 September 24th, 2000, Mr. Jakobek and his family just failed 14 to show? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: Were you upset? 17 A: I was hoping he would come. Was I upset, 18 no, not really. 19 Q: Did you tell your family that you were 20 going to meet Mr. Jakobek and his family? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Wasn't it a bit embarrassing that -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- he just didn't show up? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: When I asked you whether you were upset, 2 I include in that embarrassed. 3 A: Yeah, quite embarrassed. 4 Q: Did you call Mr. Jakobek's office and say 5 where were you? 6 A: I think I may have gotten a message at 7 some point saying that he couldn't ma -- he couldn't -- he 8 had -- something came up and he couldn't make it. 9 Q: A message from him or -- or his 10 secretary? 11 A: I can't recall. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Well, notwithstanding this -- this no- 16 show here September 24th, 2000, did you continue to have a -- 17 cordial a relationship with Mr. Jakobek? 18 A: As cordial as I could, yes. 19 Q: Well, he -- he did arrange for you to 20 meet people in IT and procurement at Toronto East General 21 Hospital, didn't he? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: You were grateful for that? 24 A: Yes. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: You said in your evidence last week that 4 it was Mr. Jakobek who asked you to attend a dinner in 1997, 5 with respect to Mel Lastman's mayoralty campaign. Do you 6 recall that -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- evidence? Did Mr. Jakobek ask you at 9 any point to become involved in his aspirations to be mayor 10 -- 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: -- or a campaign that he planned? 13 A: Not -- not per se, no. 14 Q: When you say not per se, did he or didn't 15 he? 16 A: He did not. 17 Q: Well, I'm interested in -- in -- just 18 that -- that last part of the answer when you say not per se. 19 Was there anything -- or -- or anyone directly or indirectly 20 approach you to become involved in Mr. Jakobek's mayoralty 21 aspirations? 22 A: Not that I can recall. 23 Q: Have you ever had any discussions with 24 Mr. Jakobek regarding his mayoral -- 25 A: Not recent -- I mean he's -- he's --

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Regarding what? Sorry, 2 Mr. Manes. 3 MR. RONALD MANES: Regarding his mayoralty -- 4 THE WITNESS: Mayoralty -- 5 MR. RONALD MANES: -- aspirations. 6 THE WITNESS: Not in recent times. I mean 7 there was always the sentiment that he always wanted to run 8 but we hadn't had any specific discussions, no. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 11 Q: How did you know that he had had 12 sentiment that he wanted to run? 13 A: I -- I think he's had that sentiment for 14 the last twenty (20) years. I don't know. 15 Q: And what gave you that idea that he had 16 wanted to run for the last twenty (20) years? 17 A: Well, I think, like, any time you -- you 18 get on Council, most people their -- the next step would be 19 to run for mayor and I think that's -- that was his goal. 20 Q: Just back to 197 -- '97 for a moment. Do 21 you recall that -- having discussions with Mr. Jakobek back 22 then about whether he was going to run for mayor or not? 23 A: No, it was strictly around Mayor Lastman. 24 Q: He never indicated to you that the powers 25 that be had decided that Mr. Lastman should run and that he

1 should not but rather should just assist in Mr. Lastman's 2 campaign? 3 A: I don't recall that. 4 Q: All right. Why did -- to the best of 5 your knowledge, did Mr. Jakobek agree to introduce you to 6 Toronto East General Hospital's IT person and -- or 7 department and procurement department? 8 A: Well, I was asked from MFP to -- to 9 source it out and I think I asked him and he put me in touch 10 with someone there of which set up meeting -- a couple 11 meetings with our people or the MFP people. 12 Q: I appreciate what the process was, my 13 question is why, in your view, did you think Mr. Jakobek 14 would agree to do that for you? 15 A: Well, I mean I have a relationship with 16 the person and I don't think it hurt having him talk to 17 someone, explore possibilities. 18 Q: Did you have loyalties to Mr. Jakobek? 19 A: No. 20 Q: He did assist you in getting the job as 21 the Mayor's special assistant, didn't he? 22 A: Well, he -- you know, he may have been one 23 (1) of them, I don't know if he was specifically the only one 24 (1). 25 Q: Well, Mr. Nigro, it was Mr. Jakobek that

1 invited you to that meal in the first place? 2 A: Right. 3 Q: And it was subsequent to that meal that 4 you took an unpaid leave of absence from the City to assist 5 the Mayor in his mayoralty aspirations -- 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: -- in his campaign? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: That was a big investment for you to 10 take -- 11 A: Well -- 12 Q: -- an unpaid leave of absence, wasn't it? 13 A: Yes, it was, but, I was looking at the 14 future. 15 Q: You were looking at your future? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you felt that if Mr. Lastman became 18 Mayor that your future would look brighter? 19 A: Possible, yes. 20 Q: When you say possible, you were looking 21 towards a possible job in relation -- arising out of your 22 help with the Mayor's campaign? 23 A: It's possible, sure. 24 Q: Well, before you went and took that risk, 25 didn't you have discussions with Mr. Jakobek about that

1 possibility? 2 A: No, I don't recall that. 3 Q: Let me just understand then. Mr. Jakobek 4 asked you to become involved in the Mayor's campaign, as a 5 result of which, you have to take an unpaid leave of absence 6 for a number of months and its your evidence that you had no 7 discussion with him about taking that kind of risk? 8 A: There were no guarantees. No one said to 9 me that there was any guarantees. I mean it's just an 10 assumption that you make that -- 11 Q: I'm not asking you about guarantees. I 12 fully appreciate there are no guarantees in politics, are 13 there? 14 A: No. 15 Q: But in terms of assumptions did you not 16 have any discussions with Mr. Jakobek, at that time, about 17 the possibility of getting a job out of your assistance to 18 the Mayor in his upcoming campaign, if he were elected? 19 A: I don't recall, Mr. Manes, him saying 20 those words to me, no. 21 Q: I appreciate what you're saying, he didn't 22 say those words, but that's the impression you got from Mr. 23 Jakobek, wasn't it? 24 A: It's possible. I mean I ... 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Then if you'll go down to number 19, 4 October 28th, 2000: 5 "Sixty dollars and seventeen cents 6 ($60.17), TEGH, Vinnie Zuchinnis, meal." 7 Do you recall whether -- this is your third 8 notation here regarding TEGH. Do you recall whether you had 9 a meal with anybody at Vinnie Zuchinnis' regarding TEGH? 10 A: There was probably a meal there, I don't 11 recall specifically any conversation. There could have been. 12 Q: Tell me, am I right in saying that if you 13 actually took a person to a meal that involved company 14 business, you would put the person's name down? 15 A: It's -- can you repeat the question? 16 Q: I'm sorry? 17 A: Can you repeat the question, please. 18 Q: If you actually took a person to a meal 19 or for a meal that involved MFP business, you'd put that 20 person's name down? 21 A: It's possible. I mean, I -- I was still 22 new at the game. I -- I just was feeling my way through it. 23 Q: Well, you might have been new at the game 24 but common sense would have it that you would, on your VISA, 25 say I took so and so. Just put their names down and...

1 Perhaps or no? You know, TEGH, you wouldn't do that? 2 A: I -- 3 Q: Just a matter of common sense? 4 A: No, the general impression I got of the 5 company was to just put the organization or the group you 6 were working with. That was the impression I got. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: But that doesn't necessarily mean that 11 any of these organizations that you've put down, for example 12 the City of Toronto, meant that you were doing City of 13 Toronto business either? Is that what you're saying? 14 A: Well, I was in the City of Toronto. I 15 mean, it -- it's -- like -- no, I mean, it doesn't 16 necessarily. I could have had discussions about the City of 17 Toronto at those meetings but -- 18 Q: When -- when you say you were in the City 19 of Toronto are y -- are you saying it was appropriate at MFP 20 that if you were in the City of Toronto and incurring an 21 expense, you could write it off simply because you incurred 22 the expense within the City of Toronto? 23 A: That was kind of under the general 24 liberal policy. That was my impression. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, I don't

1 understand. You mean if you're physically in the City of 2 Toronto and -- 3 THE WITNESS: Well, it was -- you know, y -- 4 you're in the City of Toronto and you're trying to do 5 business. They wanted you to get out there and just -- I -- 6 what I was trying to do was to just get to know as many 7 people as I could and -- and yes, it was just a convenient 8 way to expense an item. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 11 Q: So you could be physically present in the 12 City of Toronto and take your family out and that would be a 13 legitimate business purpose? 14 A: I thought so. 15 Q: Let me take you down to Number 26. 16 That's November the 12th, 2001: 17 "One hundred and eight dollars and seventy- 18 nine cents ($108.79), City of Toronto, 19 Barracuda's for lunch." 20 It -- if I -- let me just take you to the 21 expense receipt. Go to Tab 26 of your -- Mr. Nigro. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Y -- are you at Tab 26?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. You'll s -- 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: That's 28437. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 6 Q: Yes, t -- 28437 and I'm referring you to 7 the second page, 28438 and that's -- that's the notation. 8 Could you read that for the -- for our record? What that 9 notation is. 10 A: To what -- myself? 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: The RCMP? 13 Q: Yes. All right. It says "RCMP..." 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: Now, am I to take it that this one 16 hundred and eight dollars and seventy-nine cents ($108.79) 17 was in relation to the -- at Barracuda's's Grill in 18 Mississauga was in relation to the RCMP? 19 A: Probably. My explanation for that? 20 Q: Well, before you anticipate me because I 21 have -- of course, I would like an explanation for that. If 22 I could take you to -- so we can -- if I can take you to 23 Volume 2. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 Q: This may not be the right volume. If I 2 just might have a moment, Commissioner. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 MR. RONALD MANES: What I'm looking for, 7 Commissioner, is the expense report on this particular item 8 and my notation is wrong. 9 If I just might have a moment. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 14 Q: This would be Volume 2, Mr. Nigro. Sorry, 15 Commissioner, for the delay. 16 Volume 2, Tab 200. And this is your expense 17 report. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Tab 200? 19 MR. RONALD MANES: Tab 200. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes. 21 MR. RONALD MANES: And it looks like -- 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Does it look like 100? 23 MR. RONALD MANES: It looks like 100, it's 24 actually 200. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. Did we not

1 get better tabs yet? 2 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFAMANIS: We don't have them 3 yet. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay, can we get those, 5 because this is ridiculous. 6 MR. RONALD MANES: All right. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 9 Q: Now, if we go to Volume -- 200 -- and 100 10 on our Tabs, you see that's your expense report from November 11 1st, 2001 to November 30th, 2001? 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: That's 28413. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 15 Q: And there's a signature there in the upper 16 right hand corner, is that your signature? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And it's approved by -- whose signature is 19 that? 20 A: I have no idea -- Martin -- I think it 21 could be Martin. 22 Q: Martin what's the last name? 23 A: Martin McCain, I think it was. 24 Q: All right. And here we have for: 25 "A hundred and eight dollars and seventy

1 nine cents ($108.79), City of Toronto." 2 See that? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. So, on your expense report for 5 this meal, one hundred and eight dollars and seventy nine 6 cents ($108.79), you indicate City of Toronto, but on the 7 actual receipt you've put RCMP. 8 Can you explain that? 9 A: Well, I probably put RCMP at the time on 10 the receipt and the person who filled this out for me 11 probably put City of Toronto down. 12 Q: When you say, the person who filled it out 13 for you, didn't you fill out your own expense reports? 14 A: No, I had -- since I got there, I had 15 someone do it for me. I just put them in a package and I 16 gave them over to someone and that person would fill them out 17 for me. 18 Q: Who was that person, I just want to -- 19 A: His name was Sandy. 20 Q: Sandy Pessione? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Let me just understand what process you 23 say you took. Let's just use this number 26, as an example. 24 You have a receipt from Barracudas, and on it 25 RCMP?

1 A: Correct. 2 Q: And you've give that receipt, together 3 with other receipts, for that month of November to Mr. 4 Pessione? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: And then Mr. Pessione, then fills out your 7 expense report -- 8 A: Yes -- 9 Q: -- for you? 10 A: -- yes. 11 Q: And it would be Mr. Pessione then that 12 decides that RCMP means City of Toronto? That's where I'm 13 confused. Can you help me? 14 A: Well, he probably put in the City of 15 Toronto in error in the ledger when he filled out the expense 16 report. 17 Q: I see. Could you recall who you were with 18 November 10th, 2001, at Barracudas for lunch in respect to 19 the RCMP? 20 A: Well, that's a restaurant near MFP and I 21 was probably there at lunch with either -- for sure Dash and 22 either probably Rob Wilkinson or someone, most likely it was 23 Rob Wilkinson, and we were probably discussing our approach 24 on the account. 25 Q: Excuse this naive question, why didn't

1 you just put down Rob Wilkinson? 2 A: Because generally my -- my sense was, you 3 know, that these two (2) guys from the office go out to 4 lunch, they ask you to pick up the tab and whatever the 5 discussion was, that what you expense it at. 6 Q: Did you tell Mr. Wilkinson that you would 7 be expensing RCMP -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: -- for that lunch? 10 A: I wouldn't have said that to him, no. 11 Q: At the lunch -- let's just take that 12 lunch for an example so that I can understand the process. 13 Would you have discussed clients other than RCMP? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Why didn't you choose one(1) of those 16 other clients? 17 A: He probably asked me to pick up the tab 18 and, you know, that was one (1) of the accounts I was working 19 on. It was the easiest thing to put down at the time. 20 Q: You say that was one (1) of the accounts 21 you were working on? Is that right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Did you ever entertain anyone from the 24 RCMP? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Could you look through your summary and 2 -- and tell me where there is another entertainment for the 3 RCMP where you actually entertained someone from RCMP? 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes, can I -- 5 maybe Mr. Moore can assist here. I don't know if the same 6 thing has happened with respect to Mr. Nigro's expenses and 7 whether the only things that were put down here are ones 8 where it says specifically City of Toronto. If it is then 9 there -- there might be no answer to your question. 10 MR. DAVID MOORE: And I -- I think from 11 recollection that that's the case and using this one (1) as 12 an example, because there was a City of Toronto designation 13 associated with it, notwithstanding the fact there was also 14 an RCMP notation, it stayed in the database because of that 15 either ambiguity or overlap. Call it what you will. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Hmm hmm. 17 MR. DAVID MOORE: I'm going from memory now 18 when I say that I believe there are other expenses or chits 19 that would solely relate to the RCMP that are not in the 20 database and also going from memory when I say -- at least I 21 believe, there would not be as many as remain in the database 22 as reflected by these summaries but -- but I -- I believe 23 there are some. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Thank you. Mr. 25 Manes?

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. RONALD MANES: I wonder if -- if I just 4 might have a moment? 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Hmm hmm. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 10 Q: We will have a look at those -- those 11 other receipts. In the meantime, Mr. Nigro, let me ask you 12 this question. 13 Did all the other sales people, like yourself, 14 at MFP use Mr. Pessione to put in their -- fill out their 15 expense reports and submit them for authorization. 16 A: I -- when I got there, Dash -- that was 17 what Dash was doing and he said -- he asked me to do the same 18 thing or suggested I do the same and that's what I did. 19 Q: Then what would happen, would that 20 expense report come back to you and you would just sign it? 21 A: I would look -- yeah, sign it, hand it 22 in. 23 Q: Well, did you ever look at it to see if 24 it was accurate? 25 A: Yes, I did.

1 Q: Well, then if you take this Number 26, 2 for example. When it came back to you and said City of 3 Toronto and Barracuda's, which doesn't ap -- Barracuda's 4 doesn't appear very often on your expense account, if -- if 5 at all, would you not see that Barracuda's was an RCMP 6 expense as opposed to the City of Toronto? 7 A: I probably missed it Mr. Manes. I -- you 8 know. 9 Q: You're not perfect? 10 A: You know, I... 11 Q: All right. Now, if you'll then turn to 12 number 33, that's December 16th, 2000, for: 13 "Four hundred and forty one dollars and 14 seventy two cents ($441.72), TEGH, Wildfire 15 Grill, meal." 16 Do you recall who you took out for four 17 hundred and forty one dollars and seventy two cents 18 ($441.72), regarding TEGH? 19 A: I don't recall. 20 Q: Where is the Wildfire Grill, do you recall 21 that? 22 A: Yonge and York Mills, as I recall. 23 Q: Is that some place that you entertained 24 regularly, because I don't see it? 25 A: No, not really, I just see it here.

1 Q: The answer is, no, it's not somewhere that 2 you entertained regularly? 3 A: No. 4 Q: I guess my question is, well if that's 5 right, isn't that something that you would remember, given 6 that it was a pretty big meal, four hundred and forty one 7 dollars and seventy two cents ($441.72), close to Christmas 8 2000? 9 Within three (3) or four (4) months after you 10 were at MFP, you have no recollection of who you were with at 11 Wildlife -- at Wildfire Grill? 12 A: I can't recall, sorry. 13 Q: Well, let's see if we can, this is -- just 14 your recollections back in December of 2000, I appreciate 15 it's hard to recall, but it is close to Christmas. 16 Let's take number 35. December 20th, 2000. 17 "Sixty dollars and forty three cents 18 ($60.43), City of Toronto, Grazie 19 Restaurante lunch." 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: G-R-A-Z-I-E. 21 MR. RONALD MANES: G-R-A-Z-I-E. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: That's okay, only (1) of 23 us has to spell it Mr. Manes. 24 MR. RONALD MANES: Oh, sorry. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: It would be better if it

1 were you. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 4 Q: Mr. Nigro, do you remember that lunch? 5 A: Possibly, I don't know, I'm not sure. 6 Q: What's your best recollection? 7 A: I think I had lunch with someone that I 8 was letting them know what I was doing and exploring any new 9 possibilities. 10 Q: Who was that person? 11 A: I think his name was Gene Plouffe, I'm not 12 a 100 percent sure. 13 Q: How do you spell his last name? 14 A: P-L-O-U-F-F-E. 15 Q: You were exploring what possibilities? 16 A: Well, I'm in a new job, trying to meet 17 with as many people as I could. 18 Q: Did you make the notation in your expense 19 account for City of Toronto or was that Mr. Pessione's idea? 20 A: I probably put City of Toronto on the 21 receipt and he put it on the -- 22 Q: All right. Do you recall whether around 23 this time you had lunch with Mr. Craig Sorbara, the President 24 of the Ontario Liberal Party? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: That was at that point, now MPP for Vaughn 2 King Aurora? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Is it possible, that this entry, December 5 20th, 2000 was entertaining Mr. Sorbara? 6 A: I think I had lunch with him at Grano and 7 not Grazie's but I could be wrong. 8 Q: Did you expense that lunch? 9 A: I -- I don't recall. I may have. 10 Q: It was around this time? 11 A: I don't know for sure but -- but I do 12 remember having lunch with him, yes. 13 Q: Was that to dis -- to discuss MFP 14 business or other business? 15 A: No, it was just -- well, I let him know 16 what I was doing and he was letting me know what he was doing 17 out there. 18 Q: If you turn to Number 40. 19 "January 10th, 2001 for one thousand three 20 hundred and twenty-eight dollars and 21 ninety-four cents ($1,328.94), Dash Domi, 22 Jeffrey Lyons, Islington Travel Agencies 23 Limited, Airfare Toronto to Montreal 24 return." 25 That's the -- the trip involving Via-Rail?

1 A: Correct. 2 Q: Could you tell us what the circumstances 3 were that -- under -- under which you made that trip? 4 A: I knew that Jeff Lyons was on the board 5 of r -- Via-Rail and I asked him if there were any 6 possibilities at Via-Rail. He had suggested he would set up 7 a luncheon with the -- the chairman. 8 Q: Who was the chairman of Via-Rail at the 9 time? 10 A: Marc LeFrancois. 11 Q: Now, tell me, January 10th, 2001. Was 12 Mr. Lyons retained as a lobbyist at that time for -- on 13 behalf of MFP? 14 A: I don't know if he was retained as a 15 lobbyist but my understanding is that he was on retainer. 16 Q: What was he retained for if he wasn't 17 retained as a lobbyist? As far as your understanding is? 18 A: I -- I, you know -- you'd have to ask 19 him. I just -- 20 Q: He was on retainer to do what, as far as 21 you understood? 22 A: I have no idea. He was -- I guess he was 23 someone that was worthy of having, you know. 24 Q: Well, you called Mr. Lyons to give you 25 some assistance with Via-Rail.

1 A: Well -- 2 Q: Correct? 3 A: -- all that really happened is that in 4 discussions with Mr. Flanagan and exploring o -- in our 5 meetings of looking at all future and possible federal 6 scenarios, it was suggested that, you know, let's talk to him 7 and see if there's any opportunities. That's really how that 8 whole thing evolved and I called him and he set up the 9 luncheon. 10 Q: Let's talk to him to see if there are any 11 opportunities, him being Mr. Lyons? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Well, when you talk to him to see if 14 there's any opportunities and knowing that he was on 15 retained, would you not have known that he was on retainer as 16 a lobbyist and would identify -- would be of assistance in 17 identifying or pursuing opportunities? 18 A: Well, I knew he was on retainer. Whether 19 he was a lobbyist or just being on retainer. I -- I knew he 20 was on retainer, yes. Was he on retainer as a lobbyist? 21 Possibly. I mean -- 22 Q: Mr. Lyons, as I understand it, had -- had 23 -- did two (2) things. He was a lawyer and he was a 24 lobbyist. 25 A: That's my understanding.

1 Q: All right. Now, was it your 2 understanding that as the retainer on behalf of MFP, was as a 3 lobbyist as opposed to a lawyer or are you just saying that 4 he was on some kind of retainer that you don't -- don't know? 5 A: My -- I don't know specifically. I just 6 know he was on retainer. 7 Q: Well, I don't want to pursue this much 8 further but I'm -- I'm puzzled by this because you've been in 9 politics for quite a long time. You've testified that you 10 know -- you've known Mr. Lyons for twenty (20) years. He's 11 on retainer by a company that you're working and is going to 12 set up something with -- with one (1) of his relationships 13 and you're saying that you didn't know that he was on 14 retainer to be a lobbyist? 15 A: Well, he's on retainer, I mean I -- 16 sometimes I think they would use him as -- just for 17 information, learning about different people. Was he used as 18 a lobbyist? It's possible. I -- I'm not sure -- certain of 19 the terms of how he was used, but I think he was there for 20 more than just a lobbyist. 21 Q: I see. What was Mr. Domi doing going to 22 Montreal to this meeting with the -- the chair of Via Rail? 23 A: He just came for the trip, I mean he was 24 a person who -- you know, he and I worked on -- well, we 25 worked together all the time I mean at MFP, so it wasn't out

1 of the ordinary that he came to this trip. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: The -- when you say you worked together 6 all the time with Mr. Domi, could you explain what you -- 7 A: Well, we worked together -- 8 Q: -- meant by that? 9 A: -- I mean we worked -- in the office, you 10 know, we -- we would see each other all the time, and he 11 would you know -- 12 Q: Well, I understand seeing one another all 13 the time is -- is one (1) thing, and -- and even being 14 located in the City of Toronto physically with someone is 15 another thing, but when you say you're working together all 16 the time, does that mean that there was some kind of 17 relationship that would -- business relationship with Mr. 18 Domi where he would come along on all of your potential 19 accounts? 20 A: We -- we worked -- I mean he was a -- a 21 person who thrived to learn all the time, and yeah, you know, 22 we just worked on a lot of things together. 23 Q: Were you splitting commissions? 24 A: From when I got there, the -- the -- the 25 understanding we had is that we were going to work on a -- on

40
  1  a -- on a fifty/fifty (50/50) split, yes.  Well, work
  2  together unless told otherwise.
  3                 Q:   Now, let -- let -- let's just break that
  4  down for a moment.  When you got there, there was an
  5  understanding that you -- there would be a fifty/fifty
  6  (50/50) split and that you would work together?
  7                 A:   Correct.
  8                 Q:   How did that understanding come -- come
  9  about?
 10                 A:   That was the -- the discussion I had with
 11  my client who put it to me.  I think it was also a way of
 12  Dash continuing to work with me.
 13                 Q:   You had discussions about this
 14  fifty/fifty (50/50) split with Mr. Domi prior to -- 
 15                 A:   Not really -- 
 16                 Q:   -- Mike Flanagan?
 17                 A:   -- it was Mike Flanagan who -- who put --
 18  put the -- put those terms to me.
 19                 Q:   I appreciate that -- that what you say
 20  about Mr. Flanagan putting those terms to you, what my
 21  question is, did you have discussions with Mr. Domi prior to
 22  going over and interviewing and accepting the job at MFP with
 23  respect to having a working partnership with him, and
 24  splitting your commissions with him?
 25                 A:   We -- we talked about working together,

1 but I don't recall the wordings of fifty/fifty (50/50) and 2 splitting the commissions, no. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Mr. Nigro, you know that Mr. Wolfraim 7 testified that you and Mr. Domi split a fifty thousand dollar 8 ($50,000) commission on the City deal. Did you know he 9 testified to that? 10 A: I know he testified to that, but for the 11 time I was at MFP, all I received was my draw and only my 12 draw, and how that was made up, I was never told. I did not 13 get any bulk commission cheques or anything of that nature, 14 it was strictly a draw for the time that I was there. 15 Q: Is it your evidence then that you saw no 16 document, nor had any discussion with anyone from MFP, 17 including Mr. Domi, that led you to believe that you were 18 splitting a City commission with Mr. Domi? 19 A: All I received was my draw. 20 Q: Is the answer to my question yes, there 21 -- there were no discussions or documents or anything that 22 led you to believe that you were splitting a fifty thousand 23 dollar ($50,000) commission with Mr. Domi in respect to the 24 City deal? 25 A: I'm not aware of that.

1 Q: This is the first you've heard of it? 2 A: Yes -- 3 Q: When Mr. Wolfraim gave evidence? 4 A: -- yes, yes. 5 Q: Did you ever get a commission cheque of 6 any kind? 7 A: No, strictly a draw in the time that I was 8 there. 9 Q: On the draw cheque, did you ever -- was 10 there ever a notation as to the draw including something in 11 relation to the City of Toronto? 12 A: No -- it was direct deposit to my account. 13 Q: Did you ever get a document reconciling 14 your draw with whatever commissions you had earned? 15 A: Occasionally I had seen some type of 16 expensing that was e-mailed to me, but I had no recollection 17 or understanding of what that was. 18 Q: I don't understand what you said. Maybe 19 you can explain it. What do you mean, you received an 20 expensing -- 21 A: Well, like they sent all the sales people 22 like where all their accounts were, what levels they were at. 23 I mean I would see that. 24 Q: When you say, "what levels they were at", 25 can you explain what that means? What levels --

1 A: What their commissions were and things of 2 that nature. 3 Q: Those were just numbers, or did they have 4 actual names of accounts? 5 A: No, they actually had names of accounts. 6 Q: All right. In those -- in those expense 7 e-mails, did you ever see your name with City of Toronto and 8 a number -- a dollar figure after it? 9 A: I don't recall. I may have. I don't 10 recall specifically. 11 Q: Prior to going over to work for MFP you 12 did assist Mr. Domi with the City of Toronto account, isn't 13 that true? 14 A: Based on helping him out, in terms of 15 talking to him and relaying who was who and things of that 16 nature, yes. 17 Q: And after going over to MFP, did you 18 assist Mr. Domi with the City of Toronto account, or continue 19 to assist him? 20 A: Well I would continue to answer the 21 questions and you know, whenever, if I knew the answer, I 22 would answer the question, not only to him but to Mr. 23 Wolfraim and Mr. Flanagan and whoever in the Company had 24 questions regarding the City. 25 Q: All right. Do you remember any occasion

1 where Mr. Wolfraim, Mr. Flanagan, or Mr. Domi had -- asked 2 you questions regarding the City of Toronto account? 3 A: Well, the questions they would ask me 4 would be political and political in nature. I mean I was 5 never asked specific questions regarding the IT, I wasn't 6 aware of that stuff. Mainly of the processes. Who was who. 7 Q: Well, we've heard that from you and from 8 Ms. Payne, about the processes, the who's who, et cetera. 9 But by the time you got over to MFP, surely they -- you had 10 told them as much as you knew about the processes and about 11 various people that were at the City, like Ms. Liczyk or Ms. 12 Viinamae or whomever, am I right? 13 A: Five (5), six (6) months into the job, 14 while I was there, once -- once the Windsor and the Waterloo 15 stuff started to hit, and then some of the Toronto stuff 16 started to unfold, it was -- it was really always you know, 17 a daily chat. 18 Q: I see. So, it was in the context of when 19 the Windsor and the Waterloo stuff hit and the City of 20 Toronto stuff started to hit, that you were approached by Mr. 21 Wolfraim, Mr. Flanagan -- 22 A: Yes, yes -- 23 Q: Okay -- 24 A: -- different names kept coming up, yes. 25 Q: And asked about these people?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: But, that had -- you wouldn't be entitled 3 to a commission, just for giving that kind of advice in that 4 context, would you? 5 A: You'd have to ask them that, I don't know. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: So if we go back to Number 40, January 10 10th, 2001, you and Mr. Domi and Mr. Lyons go to Montreal to 11 see the chair of Via Rail. Did MFP get any business out of 12 that? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Am I to take it, then, from your 15 arrangement with Mr. Domi flew -- through, as you say, Mr. 16 Flanagan, that if business had come out of that you would 17 have split that business fifty-fifty (50/50)? 18 A: Poss -- yes. 19 Q: The commissions? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, while you were at MFP did you have 22 anything to do with the City account? 23 A: No. Aside from offering my advice on 24 questions that were asked of me of the people you met -- 25 Q: Yes, you've given that evidence. So are

1 you as puzzled as I am, why you'd be entitled to split a 2 commission with Mr. Domi on the City account? 3 A: Well, that's what was put to me. 4 Q: Is it possible that -- that you were -- 5 received a commission or perhaps even were hired at MFP in 6 recognition of your assistance to the company and Mr. Domi on 7 the City of Toronto account? 8 A: I don't think so. 9 Q: You were at the City -- you were at the 10 -- MFP from September 2000 to March 2002? 11 A: Some -- yes. 12 Q: In all that time, did you ever bring in a 13 client? 14 A: I worked on a lot of areas. You know, 15 it's a -- it's a business that when I got there, they told me 16 it takes a year and a half to two (2) years to get your first 17 account but I -- as I explained to you, five (5) or six (6) 18 months into the job it was very, very difficult to work the 19 accounts because of the bad publicity. 20 Q: All right. I appreciate that. I -- I 21 just -- 22 A: W -- why didn't I get any account -- I 23 was working on trying to get some accounts. 24 Q: Okay. The bottom line is no? 25 A: No.

1 Q: What reasons did MFP give for your 2 termination in March of 2002, which was four (4) months prior 3 to the contract termination date? 4 A: I was told that they were winding the 5 company down and that they were letting blocks of people go 6 and when they let me go, I was one (1) of the blocks -- in 7 one (1) of the blocks. 8 Q: Who told you that? 9 A: Mike Flanagan. 10 Q: But they paid you out for the balance of 11 your contract? That is to September of -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- 2002. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: They didn't ask you to work there? 16 A: They just -- 17 Q: Work out your contract? 18 A: No, they just released me. 19 Q: Did you have some discussions about your 20 termination with Mr. Domi? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Could you give us the benefit of those 23 discussions? What did you say? 24 A: Well, I think he knew it was coming. It 25 was just a matter of the timing. There was some people that

48
  1  were let go before me and there were some people that were
  2  let go after me and most of our discussions were really on
  3  timing of everybody else more than anything else.
  4                 Q:   But at that time where you were let go,
  5  March of 2002, where they were letting people go in blocks,
  6  Mr. Domi was not released?
  7                 A:   No, he was not.
  8                 Q:   Mr. Domi is -- is still there?
  9                 A:   As far as I know.
 10                 Q:   From your discussions with -- with Mr.
 11  Domi, can you tell me if there were any discussions with him
 12  relating to his continuing on with the company?
 13                 A:   Well, I -- I think he was in a position
 14  where he didn't know.  He did not know when his time would
 15  come up.  
 16                 Q:   You had discussions with him in that
 17  regard?
 18                 A:   Yeah, yes.
 19                 Q:   Did Mr. Domi ever tell you how much he
 20  made in commissions on the City of Toronto lease contracts?
 21                 A:   No, he did not.
 22                 Q:   We've heard evidence here from Mr.
 23  Wolfraim, that it was $1.2 million.  Did you -- 
 24                 A:   I read about it in the newspaper.
 25                 Q:   Were you surprised or not surprised?

1 A: I mean, it's a -- it's a -- it's a high 2 stakes -- I guess, you know, the numbers that you hear of the 3 other salespeople making weren't out of the ordinary, it's 4 just that I -- I didn't know that he had made that amount of 5 money until I read about it. 6 Q: Mr. Nigro, you played some part in that 7 success, didn't you? 8 A: I may have, I don't know. 9 Q: Well, didn't you have any sense when you 10 saw that number, that here you played some part in that 11 success, including the benefit of your knowledge and 12 experience, discussions about your relationships, the use of 13 your name, meetings with Ms. Payne, other members of MFP, all 14 that and you don't get anything? 15 A: All -- all I received, as I told you, is 16 in my contract, the draw, for the time that I was there. No 17 specific lump sums, none of that. You can look at the T-4 18 and how it was disbursed to me, it was strictly a -- a draw. 19 Q: Didn't you have a -- an assumption like 20 you had back in 1997, with Mr. Jakobek, that if you helped 21 with MFP -- you helped MFP and Mr. Domi, that something good 22 was going to come out of that for you? 23 MR. DAVID MOORE: Well, I think he's already 24 been asked that question before, a couple of times. 25 MR. RONALD MANES: Yeah.

1 MR. DAVID MOORE: I mean, I -- I'm not 2 intervening in any of this cross-examination. 3 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, don't. 4 MR. DAVID MOORE: But there are certain 5 aspects of it I feel -- 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes... 7 MR. DAVID MOORE: -- are not in the scope. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes...? 9 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes, I'm so sorry. 10 THE WITNESS: I can answer that question. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Go ahead, I don't have a 12 problem with the question, because he's tying it into the -- 13 the Tom Jakobek component. 14 Yes, Mr. Nigro...? 15 THE WITNESS: No, I -- I didn't expect any 16 job out of it. I mean, no. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 21 Q: Going back to the -- a trip to Montreal, 22 did you ultimately meet with the chair of Via Rail? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: When you were on that you took a 25 commercial flight back and forth?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Was this an overnight -- 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Was it a flight, I 4 thought it was a -- was it a flight then, or a train? 5 MR. RONALD MANES: Train. 6 THE WITNESS: No. 7 MR. RONALD MANES: No, it's air -- I have 8 here airfare. 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Oh. 10 THE WITNESS: No, it was an airfare. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Airfare, okay. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 14 Q: You took that flight back and forth, was 15 that an overnight -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: Did you have occasion to discuss business 18 while you were -- other business besides Via Rail when you 19 were all together, you, Mr. Domi and Mr. Lyons? 20 A: Nothing specific that I can recall, 21 strictly, mainly about this -- this -- this particular 22 meeting. 23 Q: You don't recall discussing any of the 24 City of Toronto business? 25 A: I do not know.

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: All right, could we go down to number 42, 4 this is: 5 "Seven hundred and fifty dollars ($750), 6 City of Toronto, Domi Sports Enterprises 7 Inc., tickets, hockey." 8 Do you recall what that's for in relation to 9 the City of Toronto? 10 A: Well, yes, these are a game that Dash 11 asked me to pick up on my tab, at the time and expense it. 12 Q: What was -- who was -- who did he say he 13 was entertaining? 14 A: I don't recall the specifics there but, it 15 could have been -- I don't remember who was there, but -- 16 Q: Did you ask, or wasn't it relevant? 17 A: It wasn't relevant, it was you know, he 18 just asked me to pick up the tab and expense it. 19 Q: Was there any question, or did you ask him 20 why he thought you should pick up the tab, or it was 21 important for you to pick up the tab, rather than for him to 22 pick up the tab? After all, he had his own expense account? 23 A: He asked me to do it at the time. 24 Q: Do you recall whether you picked up the 25 hockey tickets?

1 A: From the actual -- 2 Q: Yes -- from Domi's Sports Enterprises -- 3 A: That is -- what that is, is that he would 4 have paid for the box, or the box would have been paid, and 5 these would have been extra tickets he had asked me to pick 6 up. 7 Additional tickets for the box. That's my -- 8 my recollection. 9 Q: But, you don't have a recollection, as to 10 whether he told you who they were for, if he told you at all? 11 A: I don't recall that. 12 Q: All right. Number 43, February 3rd, 2001: 13 "Five hundred and forty seven dollars and 14 ninety two cents ($547.92), TEGH Air Canada 15 Centre, in-suite drinks." 16 Now, do you think that that has anything to do 17 with number 42? 18 A: Probably the same day. I was there. I 19 picked up the tab that night. 20 Q: All right. So, now if you can recall 21 that, are you able to recall whether that night, there was 22 anyone in the box from the City of Toronto or Toronto East 23 General Hospital? Numbers 42 and 43? 24 A: It's possible. 25 Q: Do you have specific recollection?

1 A: Not specifically on that night, but, you 2 know, but different people would drop in at different times. 3 Q: While you were there? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: How many times were you there in the box? 6 A: I'd say about six (6), seven (7) times 7 maybe, to the best of my recollection. 8 Q: Now, of the six (6) to seven (7) times 9 that you were there, we'll get the periods of time in a 10 moment, but in the six (6) to seven (7) times that you were 11 there, do you recall whether Ms. Liczyk was there? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And how many occasions of the six (6) to 14 seven (7) times when you were there, was Ms. Liczyk there? 15 A: Maybe two (2), three (3) times. 16 Q: Did you meet her sister Donna? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Was she there on those occasions? 19 A: I don't know every occasion, but she was 20 there on at least twice that I can recall. 21 Q: And Mr. Domi was there? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Now, do you recall, these six (6) to seven 24 (7) times, from what period to what period? 25 A: I don't recall specifically.

1 Q: Let see if we can narrow it down. Would 2 the six (6) to seven (7) times, when you were working at MFP? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. So, it would be between 5 September 2000 and March of 2002, correct? 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: Correct? 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You have to say yes or 10 no, for the -- 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Thanks. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 15 Q: Any one else from the City of Toronto 16 besides Ms. Liczyk and her sister, that you can recall, in 17 the six (6) to seven (7) times that you were in the box? 18 A: One (1) time or another I think a lot of 19 people were through that box. 20 Q: I appreciate that, but I'm asking you if 21 you have a specific recollection to assist the Commissioner 22 in the Inquiry here. 23 A: I remember people like Joe Halstead was in 24 there once, Alan Slobodsky was in there once. Mike Feldman 25 was in there once. Betty Disero.

1 Q: How many times Betty Disero? 2 A: Once. 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: That's -- that's what I can recall right 5 now. 6 Q: Do you remember at any time -- any of 7 those six (6) to seven (7) times if you met Lana Viinamae? 8 A: Yes, yes. Actually, she was there. 9 Q: How many times? 10 A: A couple times that I can recall. 11 Q: And did you meet Katherine Bulko? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: How many times? 14 A: I've seen each a couple times, I think. 15 Q: And Ms. Leggieri? 16 A: Yeah. I don't know as many times, but 17 for sure once. 18 Q: Mr. Andrew? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: How many times? 21 A: At least a couple times. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Was Mr. Lyons ever in the box when you

1 were there? 2 A: I -- I never recall Mr. Lyons, no. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. Now, in those six (6) to seven 4 (7) times you were in the box, was there ever anyone from 5 Toronto East General Hospital in the box? 6 A: I think Tom may have dropped in one (1) 7 of the games. 8 Q: That is Tom Jakobek? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Did you invite him to the game? 11 A: No, I didn't. I didn't invite him. 12 Q: To your knowledge, did anyone from MFP 13 invite him -- 14 A: Well, Dash did -- 15 Q: -- to the game? 16 A: Dash did most of the inviting of all 17 these people. 18 Q: Well, people could just drop in couldn't 19 they? 20 A: Yeah. They could do that too. 21 Q: Y -- w -- when you saw Mr. Jakobek, did 22 you have any understanding whether he was just dropping in or 23 he was being entertained by MFP on MFP's tab? 24 A: I don't recall specifically. 25 Q: Well, when you say you don't recall

1 specifically, was there anything in your discussions with Mr. 2 Jakobek or any other representative of MFP, including Mr. 3 Domi, that would lead you to believe one (1) way or the other 4 whether he was being ent -- entertained, at least on the 5 occasion that you saw him, by MFP. 6 A: He may have been entertained that day. I 7 -- I can't recall if it was a drop in or if he was there for 8 the whole game or a period or two (2). 9 Q: When you saw him, did he eat anything? 10 Do you recall? 11 A: I don't -- I don't remember. 12 Q: When you saw him did you talk to him? 13 A: Probably. 14 Q: Do you have any recollection of the 15 discussions with him? 16 A: Not -- not -- not specifically, no. 17 Q: Let me just ask you about Ms. Liczyk for 18 a moment. When you saw her on these two (2) or three (3) at 19 the -- in the box, was she watching the hockey game? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Did you see her talking to Mr. Domi or 22 any other representative of MFP or just watching the hockey 23 game? 24 A: Well, the box is inducive (sic) to move 25 around. I mean, I don't know specifically who she was

1 talking to but people would tend to move around and in 2 between periods talk, yes. 3 Q: Well, I'm just talking about from what 4 you could see, was she talking to Mr. Domi or any of -- 5 representative of MFP while you saw her at these -- 6 A: Yeah, she would be talk -- 7 Q: -- two (2) or three (3) games? 8 A: -- she would be talking to Mr. Domi, yes. 9 Q: Did you talk to her? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Now, from what you could hear and what 12 you s -- you, yourself, talked to her about, did you talk to 13 her about MFP business? 14 A: No, I did not. 15 Q: Did you hear Mr. Domi talk to her about 16 MFP business? 17 A: I do not know. 18 Q: Did you hear any talk about, generally, I 19 -- the IT business in general, or leasing in general, 20 anything like that? 21 A: No, no, I did not. 22 Q: When you -- when MFP took clients out to 23 something like, you know, the hockey games, wasn't the 24 purpose to talk business? 25 A: The sense that I had was strictly to just

1 build the relationships. 2 Q: You mean get friendly? 3 A: Get friendly, get to know people. 4 Q: All right. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Now, if you go to entries 58, 64, 65, 68 9 and 69 of page number 6, and that is -- well, let me just ask 10 you a general question, I'll identify those for the -- for 11 the record. Those are all TEGH. Ginger Group Florist, Metro 12 Toronto Convention Centre, ACC Centre Sports, Vinnie 13 Zuchinnis, J.J. Muggs, any of those entries have anything to 14 -- directly to do with TEGH? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Well, entry 58 is the Ginger Group 17 Florist, what was that for, flowers, plants? Do you recall? 18 A: I can't recall that one (1), no. 19 Q: Do -- do you know where the Ginger Group 20 Florist is? 21 A: No, I don't recall that. 22 Q: This is something that would have -- 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: It says it's on 50 St. 24 Clair Avenue Road. 25 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. I just didn't 2 know if that would help Mr. Nigro to remember where it was. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 5 Q: Does that -- does that assist you, Mr. 6 Nigro? 7 A: No, it does not, I don't recall that. 8 Q: That would be right near St. Clair and 9 Yonge, wouldn't it be? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: You remember you met with Mr. Domi at the 12 gym, recently you went -- 13 A: Right. 14 Q: -- where was that gym located? 15 A: It's 52 St. Clair. 16 Q: So, this is right next door. Does that 17 assist your recollection? 18 A: I -- I don't recall the transaction. 19 Q: Is This perhaps something that you did 20 for Mr. Domi, not to suggest that there's any evidence of 21 that, I'm just trying to help you to recall -- 22 A: I -- I don't recall, Mr. Manes. 23 Q: All right. Let's go over to the next 24 page here. And this would be entries 74, 75, 78, 79, 80, 81, 25 82, and 86.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: 84? 2 MR. RONALD MANES: And 84. Thank you, 3 Commissioner. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 6 Q: All those entries are for TEGH. Do any 7 of those entries relate directly to T -- TEGH entertaining, 8 sir? 9 A: Well, I was working the account and most 10 of those times I just used the entry on putting those 11 expenses in. 12 Q: Well, let's just take an example when you 13 say you're working the account. Number 80 at May 21st, 2001 14 is: 15 "Ninety dollars and five cents ($90.05), 16 TEGH, Frankie Tomatto's, meal." 17 Do you remember -- where's Frankie Tomatto's? 18 A: It's in the east end. 19 Q: Do you remember being there with someone 20 in relation to the Toronto East general account? 21 A: I don't recall specifically, no. 22 Q: Is it possible that the entry at -- the 23 meal at Frankie Tomatto's had nothing to do with Toronto East 24 General Hospital? 25 A: It's possible.

1 Q: And if you just take these entries now, 2 numbers 89, 91, 96 and 103, to page 8. Those are all TEGH 3 entries, meals, lunches and the like? Any of those entries 4 relate directly to Toronto East General Hospital, it contains 5 their -- contains the -- 6 A: I can't recall specifically. 7 Q: -- acronym TEGH, you can't recall? 8 A: No, cannot recall. 9 Q: Where is the Banknote Bar? 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: The which? 11 MR. RONALD MANES: The Banknote Bar. That's 12 number 91, June 29th, 2001. 13 THE WITNESS: Bathurst and King. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 16 Q: Bathurst and King. You've seen those 17 entries before, do you recall what may have caused you to go 18 to the Banknote Bar, Bathurst and King? 19 A: I'm sorry, I don't remember. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes, just let me 24 know when you'd like to take the morning break. 25 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. All right.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm quite happy to keep 2 going, if you have more questions in this regard. 3 MR. RONALD MANES: I have more in this regard 4 and this is as convenient time to break as any, Commissioner. 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay, we'll break until 6 10 to. 7 THE REGISTRAR: The inquiry is in recess 8 until ten (10) to 12:00. 9 10 --- Upon recessing at 11:30 a.m. 11 12 --- Upon resuming at 11:50 a.m. 13 14 THE REGISTRAR: The inquiry will resume, 15 please be seated. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm told the heat is 17 going up, so eventually we'll all be warm enough. 18 Mr. Manes...? 19 MR. RONALD MANES: Thank you Commissioner. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 22 Q: Now, from -- there are a number of entries 23 for TEGH that I'll read off to you and you can tell me, sir, 24 as you follow along with me, whether you can recall any of 25 them involving a representative of TEGH?

1 Numbers 104, 105, 113, 115, 118, 122, 132, 2 133, 137, 139, 141, 142, 143, 144. To the best of your 3 recollection, did any of those involve -- involve 4 entertaining a person from Toronto East General Hospital? 5 A: I don't recall specifically, sir. 6 Q: You don't recall specifically, can you 7 give me your general observations, whether you believe that 8 any of those entries involved entertaining people from 9 Toronto East General Hospital with respect to MFP business? 10 A: There could have been conversations that I 11 had with all the other people like -- but as I said, it was 12 -- I used that entry to expense it. 13 Q: All right. If I just might -- this will 14 be my last question about your expenses, sir. If I can take 15 you back to number 58, March 14th, 2001. 16 This is: 17 "Two hundred and fifty-three dollars 18 ($253), TEGH, the Ginger Group Florist" 19 Do you recall giving evidence previously, that 20 you just didn't recall that transaction? 21 A: Yeah. I -- I don't recall. 22 Q: I appreciate that. Did that -- that was 23 a -- a florist shop right next to the gym? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: This -- the reason I -- perhaps I can --

1 I can tweak your memory here. This was a purchase for two 2 hundred and fifty three dollars ($253) from a florist. Is 3 that something of significance that may trigger your memory? 4 Two hundred and fifty-three dollars ($253) from a florist? 5 A: I -- I -- I don't recall, Mr. Manes. I 6 -- 7 Q: Is it -- you've given evidence that you 8 were sometimes asked by other people to expense things for 9 them and you gave some instances to Mr. Domi. Do you recall 10 whether perhaps this was not a purchase that you made, but 11 was being made on behalf of one (1) of your fellow MFP 12 employees, including Mr. Domi? 13 A: I -- I -- I don't recall. 14 Q: Had you ever bought flowers or anything 15 else from the Ginger Group Florist? 16 A: No. 17 Q: If I can just ask you this last question. 18 In your mind's eye, picture where the gym is -- if you can 19 picture that. You have to say yes or no for -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- the record. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Then picture in your mind's eye the 24 Ginger Group Florist. 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: You could picture that in your -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- mind's eye. Now, do you remember 4 going in there and making a purchase on any occasion? 5 A: I'm not 100 percent sure. I don -- I 6 don't recall. 7 Q: I appreciate that -- 8 A: Obviously, I walked in there and I 9 purchased something. I just don't recall -- 10 Q: I appreciate that you're not 100 percent 11 sure, but can you -- can you share your best recollection 12 with us as to make a purchase at the Ginger Group Florist 13 next door to the gym? 14 A: To the best of my recollection, walking 15 in there and purchasing something. I -- I -- that's the best 16 I can recall. 17 Q: Do you recall whether that something was 18 flowers or a flower pot or...? 19 A: I can't recall. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Just so I might follow 21 up, Mr. Nigro, do you -- do you recall actually going in 22 there, then and -- and buying something but just not 23 remembering what it was? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay.

1 2 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 3 Q: Now, just to follow that up. Do you 4 remember whether you were buying something for yourself or 5 something that you had been asked to buy for an MFP employee? 6 Something for Mr. Domi? Anything like that assist you? 7 A: No, I don't remember any of that. Sorry. 8 Q: Is it possible that that was a personal 9 purchase as opposed to -- 10 A: It -- it could have been someone who was 11 sick or someone that I was trying to do some business with 12 and I -- I -- I don't recall specifically. 13 Q: In any w -- in any event, do you have a 14 specific recollection that this wasn't a purchase involving 15 Toronto East General Hospital? 16 A: I -- I'm not certain. 17 Q: All right. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Thank you, sir. Those are my questions 22 for you. 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: All right. Have we had 24 any discussion about who is going next? Any agreement? 25 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Yes, Commissioner --

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes. 2 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: -- I am going next, I 3 understand. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay, thank you. So 5 there's -- this is Mr. Cavalluzzo, Mr. Nigro, on behalf of 6 Dash Domi. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes will be 11 removing all of that stuff, so you can use the table. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: How far away is this 16 going to be? Is that fine? Okay. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: 19 Q: Mr. Nigro, I am Mr. Domi's counsel, and I 20 have a few questions to ask you concerning certain testimony 21 you gave on the previous day. 22 But before doing that, if I could perhaps put 23 some context to my questions, I want to initially deal with 24 your employment history from -- from the testimony, I didn't 25 understand some of it, and I'd like just to briefly take you

1 through that, because I may have further questions in respect 2 of it. 3 Now, I understand between 1980 and 1983 you 4 were the constituency assistant for Mr. Eggleton, who was the 5 Mayor at the time? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And then you left that job in about 1984 8 and you went to the Federal Government to work with Mr. 9 Collinette? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And was Mr. Collinette the Minister of 12 Transport at the time? 13 A: He was the Minister of State for 14 Multiculturalism. 15 Q: Okay, and how long did you stay with Mr. 16 Collinette? 17 A: Until the Liberals were defeated, a 18 couple of years, year and a half. 19 Q: Okay. Now, I don't recall my history, 20 but I thought they were defeated in 1983? 21 A: I don't specifically remember, but I -- 22 after they lost the election I left them. 23 Q: So Mr. Mulroney, who defeated them, was 24 elected in 1983, so you must have left in 1983? 25 A: Somewhere in that nature, I think.

1 Q: Okay. So, then you left and this would 2 have been 1983, not 1984, you came to the City of Toronto? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you said you worked on the real 5 estate side; is that correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And was Mr. Eggleton still the Mayor? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you continued working for the City of 10 Toronto until 1997, which was the year of the Megacity -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- election? 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And in 1997 you worked on Mayor Lastman's 15 campaign? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I understand in that campaign for the 18 Megacity election that Mr. John Danson was his campaign 19 manager? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And after Mr. Lastman was elected in 22 1998, it would have been effective in terms of his Mayoralty, 23 you were his special assistant, I understand? 24 A: One (1) of them, yes. 25 Q: Okay, and just briefly, what were your

1 duties and responsibilities as a special assistant to Mayor 2 Lastman? 3 A: At that time working with mainly the 4 communities and a lot of the Toronto issues, waterfront 5 infrastructure, those type -- 6 Q: And in terms of working the waterfront 7 infrastructure, I assume that related to dealings you would 8 have to have with the Toronto Harbour Commission? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And that would require some Federal 11 experience or expertise? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And is that why the City of Toronto used 14 you on that particular brief, because of your Federal 15 experience? 16 A: I think so. 17 Q: Okay. Now, in April of 1999, you went to 18 work for TEDCO? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the Chair of TEDCO at that time was 21 Fred Eisen? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And TEDCO, was that a -- was that a 24 Federal or a Municipal entity? 25 A: Municipal.

1 Q: And once again, would -- was TEDCO 2 working with the Harbour Commission? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And once again, was your expertise with 5 the federal government used by the City of Toronto in having 6 you deployed at TEDCO? 7 A: I don't know if it was specifically for 8 that, but could have been. 9 Q: Okay. And you see nothing wrong with 10 that? 11 A: I don't think so. 12 Q: In other words, the fact that you may have 13 experience in a particular area, which your new employer 14 relies upon, there's nothing wrong with that. It's done 15 every day, is it not? 16 A: I think so. 17 Q: Now, how long did you -- how long did you 18 stay at TEDCO? 19 A: Until -- until October of '99. 20 Q: And in October of '99 you -- I understand 21 you went on an unpaid leave? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And what were you doing during the period 24 of the unpaid leave of absence? 25 A: Not very much.

1 Q: Were you representing the City at all, in 2 respect of the Union Station? 3 A: No. 4 Q: When -- when did that take place? 5 A: April of 2000. 6 Q: So, in April of 2000, you were called upon 7 to represent the City -- 8 A: I was asked to work with a team of people. 9 Q: Right. And in terms of the Union Station, 10 once again, that's a matter under federal jurisdiction? 11 A: At the time, yes. 12 Q: Right. It's railways, so it's under 13 federal jurisdiction? 14 A: Yes, yes. 15 Q: Right. And once again, the City of 16 Toronto there would have been using you because of your 17 federal experience? 18 A: I think so, yes. 19 Q: Okay. And then you joined MFP in 20 September of 2000? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you left MFP in February of 2002? 23 A: No, I think it was March. 24 Q: March -- 25 A: Middle of March, April.

1 Q: Okay. Thank you. Just one (1) other 2 thing, you may recall, I'm a political junkie, so you may 3 recall that the Provincial Liberals were elected in between, 4 about 1985, '86 -- and 1990, my recollection was that you 5 were involved with the Provincial Liberal Government, is that 6 correct? 7 A: Not per se, no. 8 Q: Not per se, no. Were you involved as an 9 advisor, or anything like that? 10 A: No. 11 Q: No, okay. How did you know Mr. Sorbara? 12 A: That's a good question. 13 Q: That's why I ask them. 14 A: Pardon? Okay -- sorry -- I knew Craig 15 Sorbara, through the Columbus Centre, through working with 16 Villa charities and things of that nature. 17 Q: Okay. Now, when you -- you were asked a 18 question by Mr. Manes, about meeting Mr. Sorbara, you though 19 it may have been at Grano. 20 A: Right. 21 Q: Now, I understand that that would have 22 been with Mr. Sorbara was in his private life, he wasn't a 23 politician at the time? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: Okay. Now, you were asked a number of

1 questions concerning Mr. Domi's expenses. When did you -- 2 when did you first review or first see Mr. Domi's expenses, 3 or that summary that Mr. Manes took you through? 4 A: When the Counsel showed it to me. 5 Q: And when was that? 6 A: A month and a half ago, something like 7 that. 8 Q: Was it a month ago, two (2) months ago, 9 three (3) -- 10 A: I got -- a couple of different packages. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Is this something that 12 Commission Counsel can help us with? 13 MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: Yes, if Commission 14 Counsel can be of assistance, that's fine. 15 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFAMANIS: If it's assistance, 16 Commissioner, and assistance to Mr. Cavalluzzo, I believe a 17 summary was first shown to Mr. Nigro, in August or September 18 of 2002. 19 A full summary was sent to him I think, about 20 two (2) or three (2) -- about two (2) months ago and then 21 there was some -- when there were updates, for example, when 22 other documents were added. I'm certain Mr. Nigro first saw 23 it in August or September of 2002. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO:

1 Q: So, in August or September of 2002, was 2 the first occasion upon which you saw Mr. Domi's expenses? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And many of those expenses, for example, 5 related to the year 1999? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: And so that, I guess, three (3) years 8 after the fact, you're looking at somebody else's expense 9 sheets and you were being asked questions as to whether you 10 were there, whether you weren't there -- 11 A: Right. 12 Q: -- and so on and so forth. Pretty 13 difficult process, you would agree? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Did anyone meet with you individually to 16 take you through these expenses or did you just review them 17 on your own? 18 A: I did it on my own. 19 Q: Okay and what about prior to your 20 testimony? 21 A: I discussed it with Counsel. 22 Q: And how -- 23 A: S -- 24 Q: How -- 25 A: Sorry.

1 Q: How far prior to the hearing was that 2 that you reviewed Mr. Domi's expenses with Counsel? 3 A: I don't recall specifically. 4 Q: You don't recall -- 5 A: I don't recall the time. 6 Q: Well, maybe -- 7 A: This summer? 8 Q: Was that the last time you met with 9 Counsel I -- prior to your testimony was in the summer? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: I -- 14 Q: Is that your recollection? 15 A: That's my recollection. 16 Q: Okay. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. -- is this 18 something, again, that Commission Counsel can assist with? 19 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: One (1) moment, 20 Commissioner. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: Mr. Cavalluzzo, 25 Commissioner, if it assists we went -- I believe the meeting

1 -- 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: To me, please. 3 MS. DAINA GROSKAUFMANIS: Yes. Sorry. 4 Commissioner, the -- there were meetings with Mr. Nigro both 5 in August 2000 and September 2000. I know the meeting in 6 September 2000, we went over the expenses. Commission 7 Counsel subsequently met with Mr. Nigro, I believe, once in 8 person and I think two (2) or three (3) times over the phone 9 to discuss those same expenses. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. PAUL CAVALLUZZO: 12 Q: Okay. Did you talk to anybody else about 13 the -- Mr. Domi's expenses? 14 A: No, I did not. 15 Q: Now, one (1) thing that I would ask you 16 is do you keep a diary? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Could we see the diary so that we could 19 check the diary along with the dates of the expenses? 20 A: I -- I don't have the diaries with me. 21 Q: Where are they? 22 A: I don't -- I haven't kept my diaries from 23 the last three (3) or four (4) years. 24 Q: You haven't kept them but where are they? 25 A: I don't know where they are. I have no

1 idea. 2 Q: I -- 3 A: I don't recall where my diaries are. 4 Q: I'm sorry? 5 A: I don't have my diaries. 6 Q: But did you keep diaries at the time? 7 A: Generally, but yeah, I don't -- 8 Q: Okay, where are they? 9 A: I don't have diaries. 10 Q: No, but if you -- if you kept diaries, 11 which you say you -- 12 A: I would have had them at home if I had a 13 diary. 14 Q: Okay. Are they at home now? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Where are they? 17 A: I have no idea. 18 Q: You have no idea where your diaries are? 19 Did you destroy them? 20 A: No. If I had diaries, they would be at 21 home. 22 Q: Could you undertake to me to look for 23 them? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And I would ask Commission Counsel if

1 they could follow up on that. Thank you. 2 What about notes? Did you keep notes of what 3 you did? 4 A: Sometimes. 5 Q: All right and would those notes as well 6 be at home? 7 A: If they are, they would be at home. Yes. 8 Q: All right and I would ask you as well to 9 look for those notes. 10 A: Okay. 11 Q: Now, I'd like to ask you some questions 12 about your relationship with Mr. -- Mr. Domi. You said you 13 knew him for a couple of years prior to him coming onto the 14 City scene, so to speak? 15 A: So to speak. 16 Q: And you knew him through his sister and a 17 relative of -- of his, Mr. Pristine, you said? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you said that Mr. Pristine called you 20 and said that Mr. Domi had a new job and he would be calling 21 you? 22 A: To the best of my recollection, yes. 23 Q: Okay. Did you say he better not call me? 24 A: Did I say he better not -- 25 Q: Yeah.

1 A: -- call me? 2 Q: Did you say don't -- don't have him call 3 me? 4 A: No, I never said that. 5 Q: There's nothing wrong with him calling 6 you, is there? 7 A: No. 8 Q: His calling -- b -- why do you -- do you 9 recall why he was calling you? 10 A: The first time, no. 11 Q: All right. Now th -- come on, you knew 12 that he was new on the job and he -- you told us in your 13 testimony that he wanted to learn. 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: He wanted to learn what was going on at 16 the City. I'm using your words here -- 17 A: Right. 18 Q: -- from your testimony. 19 A: Right. 20 Q: He wanted to learn the processes. He 21 wanted to learn about Council. 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: Isn't that correct? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: He wanted to learn about the committees?

1 A: Correct. 2 Q: And, in fact, you -- you said in your 3 testimony that Mr. Domi was pretty green as far as politics 4 were concerned -- City politics were concerned? 5 A: I thought so, yeah. 6 Q: Okay and did his questions of you 7 indicate that he was very green as far as City politics were 8 concerned? 9 A: Y -- probably in the early stages. 10 Q: Okay and you said that -- I'm quoting 11 from you again, and I just want to get some context to this. 12 You said that Dash was a people person? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: You said that he worked very hard at 15 building relationships? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Right. And you said that he was 18 persistent? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: In fact, you went so far as to say in 21 terms of building these relationships he became pushy? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And what seemed to me from your 24 testimony, that he was really seeking from you, your guidance 25 and advice as far as how City Hall operated?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Now, had you ever done that yourself when 3 you get into a new job, you call upon a friend who's already 4 there and you try to learn as much as you can from that 5 friend? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: There's nothing wrong with that is there? 8 A: I don't think so. 9 Q: And you also told us that you told him 10 who the key decision makers were, whether they were 11 bureaucrats or politicians? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And did you introduce Dash to these 14 people or tell him -- or -- or did he go on his own to 15 introduce himself, after you told him who these people were? 16 A: He went on his own. 17 Q: Are you sure you -- you didn't introduce 18 him to some people? 19 A: I may have, I don't specifically remember 20 anybody specifically. 21 Q: The other thing you said that I wanted to 22 ask you about before we come to some expenses, you said that 23 he was trying to impress Irene Payne, his boss; is that 24 correct? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Did he tell you that, or was that just 2 your impression? 3 A: I think he may have mentioned that to me. 4 Q: Before we get into the expenses, was Dash 5 a guy that was always at City Hall? 6 A: I think so. 7 Q: He became part of the woodwork? 8 A: He was there quite a bit, yes. 9 Q: Now, I wonder if you -- if you looked at 10 the summary of Dash's expenses. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Now, the very -- the very first item that 15 I want to refer to, I'm not going to be referring to items 16 where you agreed you were there, but the first item that I'd 17 refer to is item 3, which is in the left hand corner. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And that's at Il -- Il Posto -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: -- right? And it will be Dash's evidence 22 that you and he were at Il Posto about ten (10) times during 23 the period. Do you recall being with him about ten (10) 24 times during the period? 25 A: I -- I've been with him at Il Posto, as I

1 said, I don't know if I recall ten (10) times, but I've been 2 there definitely with him at times. 3 Q: Often? 4 A: I don't know about often, but I've been 5 there with him, as I've said. 6 Q: Now, in your testimony, to be fair to 7 you, you said three (3) or four (4) times. I'm putting it to 8 you, it was much greater than three (3) or four (4) times? 9 A: I've been there -- I've been there with 10 him, to the best of my recollection, three (3) to four (4) 11 times -- 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: -- I've obviously been there on my own, 14 while he's been there as well. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: But I don't recall being there ten/twelve 17 (10/12) times with him. 18 Q: Right. Well, certainly if you were there 19 more than three (3) or four (4) times, correct? It may not 20 have been -- shown up on his expense sheet. I looked at your 21 expense sheet, it doesn't show up there. Il Posto doesn't 22 come up once. 23 I'm putting it to you again, Mr. Nigro, that 24 you were there close to ten (10) times, around ten (10) times 25 with Dash?

1 A: As I said, I've been there with him, I 2 don't know, like I said, ten (10) times. 3 Q: Your friend -- your friends of the owner? 4 A: Yes, I know the owner. 5 Q: Right. And Dash would meet you because 6 that was a convenient location when you were working at City 7 Hall? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Now, item 5 is -- is a thousand dollars 10 ($1,000) for hockey tickets. Hockey is getting expensive, is 11 it not? 12 Now, I understand that these were two (2) 13 tickets for the last hockey game at Maple Leaf Gardens, a 14 sentimental evening for some. Do you recall being there? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you were there with Mr. Robson? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I understand that Mr. Domi was 19 standing room, you two (2) guys had the tickets and he was in 20 the standing room? 21 A: I don't recall where he was, but I was 22 sitting with Mr. Robson. 23 Q: You were sitting with Mr. Robson? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. The next item is Pizza -- Pizza

1 Banfi. Now, Pizza Banfi is on Spadina? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Just north of St. Clair? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Pretty close to where you live? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: You live at Christie and St. Clair? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: The world now knows where I live, but, 11 yes. 12 Q: Pardon me? 13 A: Everybody knows where I live, yes. 14 Q: Okay. Do you recall being with Mr. Domi 15 at Pizza Banfi -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- on numerous times? 18 A: I've been to Pizza Banfi with him, but -- 19 yes, yes. 20 Q: And do you recall, it's certainly 21 convenient for you, was it not? 22 A: Sometimes -- 23 Q: Right? 24 A: -- sometimes. 25 Q: Well, not sometimes, if you live at close

1 to -- 2 A: No, I have four (4) kids, sometimes it's 3 convenient and sometimes it's not. 4 Q: Okay. And you would agree with me that, 5 for example, in respect of item 6, you say that you never -- 6 you were never there with Rob Godfrey and Dash. However, you 7 were there with Dash at times? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. Now, if you go to number 17, in 10 respect of number 17, there's no identification for the 11 restaurant. Now, in respect of that item, you said that: 12 "I have never had a meal with these three 13 (3) people." 14 Right? Have you ever had a meal with Dash and 15 John Danson? 16 A: I don't recall. 17 Q: The one -- 18 A: It's possible, I don't recall. 19 Q: Okay. But, when you said you've never had 20 a meal with these three (3) people, the three (3) people 21 being Dash, John Danson and Jakobek, you mean that you never 22 had a meal with the three (3) of those together at one (1) 23 time, is that correct? 24 A: Yes, yes. 25 Q: You've had meals with Dash. You've had

1 meals with Danson and you've had meals with Jakobek, 2 presumably? 3 A: Yes. 4