1 2 3 TORONTO COMPUTER LEASING INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE MADAM JUSTICE DENISE BELLAMY, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: East York Civic Centre 17 850 Coxwell Avenue 18 Toronto, Ontario 19 M4C 5R1 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 January 16th, 2003 25

2
  1                        APPEARANCES
  2  Ronald Manes            )Commission Counsel 
  3  Patrick Moore           )
  4  Daina Groskaufmanis     ) 
  5  Linda Rothstein         )City of Toronto 
  6  Lily Harmer    (np)     )
  7  Robert Centa            )
  8  Gordon Capern  (np)     )
  9  David Moore             )MFP 
 10  Fraser Berrill (np)     ) 
 11  Ken Jones (np)          ) 
 12  Brian Heller   (np)     )Ball Hsu and Associates Ltd.
 13  Melissa Kronick (np)    )CUPE 
 14  Raj Anand (np)          )Lana Viinamae
 15  Bay Ryley               )
 16  William Anderson        )Wanda Liczyk
 17  Valerie Dyer   (np)     )Dell Computers
 18  Jennifer Lynch (np)     )
 19  Edward Greenspan (np)   )Jeff Lyons
 20  Todd White (np)         )
 21  Hugh MacKenzie (np)     )Jim Andrew
 22  Paul Cavalluzzo (np)    )Dash Domi
 23  Benjamin Barnes (np)    )
 24  
 25  Joyce Ihamaki           )Registrar

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 4 Exhibits 4 5 6 VINCE NIGRO, Sworn 7 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Ronald Manes 5 8 9 Certificate of Transcript 217 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 NO. Description Page 3 12 VOLUME 1: Bound document titled 70 4 "Vince Nigro- volume 1" 5 tabs 1-100. 6 7 12 VOLUME 2: Bound document titled 70 8 "Vince Nigro- volume 2" 9 tabs 101-207 10 11 13 VOLUME 1: Bound document titled 71 12 "Dash Domi Expenses- 13 volume 1" tabs 1 to 116 14 15 13 VOLUME 2: Bound document titled 71 16 " Dash Domi Expenses- 17 volume 2" tabs 1 - 131 18 19 13 VOLUME 3: Bound document titled 71 20 "Dash Domi Expenses- 21 volume 3" tabs 1-85 22 23 13 VOLUME 4: Bound document titled 71 24 "Dash Domi Expenses- 25 volume 4" tabs 1-108

1 --- Upon commencing at 10:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: The Inquiry is now in 4 session. Please be seated. 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Good morning. 6 Mr. Manes, are you ready to start? 7 Could we have the witness sworn or affirmed 8 please? 9 10 VINCE NIGRO, Sworn: 11 12 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. RONALD MANES: 13 Q: Good morning, Mr. Nigro. 14 A: Good morning. 15 Q: Mr. Nigro, this morning, I'd like to start 16 off by asking some questions about your background. First of 17 all, how old are you? 18 A: Forty-seven (47). 19 Q: All right. Now, as I understand it in 20 1980, you went to work for the City of Toronto in Mayor 21 Eggleton's office? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: From 1983 to 1984 you took a job in the 24 private sector? 25 A: Right.

1 Q: And the name of the company, am I 2 pronouncing this correctly? Fibred. 3 A: Fibred, right. 4 Q: What -- what does Fibred Corp do? 5 A: It was a bread company. 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: It was a what, sir? 7 THE WITNESS: Bread company. 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Bread company. Okay. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 11 Q: What did you do for Fibred? 12 A: I did a lot of the -- just helping the 13 company set up. It was a new company. My family's 14 background is in the baking business and, you know, I helped 15 out setting up a bakery. 16 Q: All right. I -- I didn't ask and I -- I 17 should. What did you do in Mayor Eggleton's office? 18 A: I was the constituency assistant. I 19 started out. 20 Q: Now, the constit -- constituency 21 assistant that you started out as, what is a constit -- 22 A: Helped work with the communities. 23 Q: -- uency assistant? 24 A: Working with the communities, 25 constituents.

1 Q: All right and I take it what that means 2 is that a constituent may have a problem, call in to the 3 office and you're the go-to guy with the problem? 4 A: That and working with, like, the ethnic 5 communities and things of that nature. 6 Q: I understand that that in 1984 you went 7 to work for the then minister, federally, David Collinette? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And what did you do for Mr. Collinette? 10 A: I was his Ontario liaison, worked with a 11 lot of the Ontario issues. 12 Q: I take it that -- that in order to get 13 that job, you had to be a Liberal? 14 A: At the time I was. 15 Q: The job there being short-lived because 16 the Liberals lost the election -- 17 A: Right. 18 Q: -- in 1984 and you landed up back at the 19 City of Toronto? 20 A: Right. 21 Q: City Hall? 22 A: Right. 23 Q: And that's in 1984 and -- but I -- as I 24 understand it you were at City Hall for about thirteen (13) 25 or fourteen (14) years?

1 A: Give or take, yes. 2 Q: What did you do for City Hall? 3 A: Started as a property manager. 4 Q: And then how did you progress from there? 5 A: Worked a little bit on the real estate 6 side. 7 Q: What do you mean? 8 A: The real estate coordinator retired and 9 he asked me to fill that role. 10 Q: And after that? 11 A: Took some time off and went to help out 12 Mel -- Mayor Lastman on that re-el -- on the election. 13 Q: Yes. That's in 1997. 14 A: Right. 15 Q: But I'm saying after you helped out on 16 the real estate side, did you have any other job at City 17 Hall? 18 A: No. 19 Q: All right and then, as I understand it, 20 1997 you took an unpaid leave -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- from City Hall to work for the Mel 23 Lastman cam -- Mayoral campaign. 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And can you tell me, how was it that --

1 that you were a recruited or approached to work on that 2 campaign? 3 A: I was asked to go to a meeting. It was a 4 meeting of people who were working towards the election of 5 Mel Lastman. 6 Q: All right. In that you haven't told us 7 who asked you to go to that meeting? 8 A: Tom Jakobek asked me to go to that 9 meeting. 10 Q: Now, let me ask you some questions in 11 that regard and then I want to talk about that meeting. How 12 did you know Mr. Jakobek? 13 A: I had known him since he -- early '80s. 14 Q: How was that you knew him since the early 15 '80s? 16 A: I was working in his office when he got 17 elected. 18 Q: As a Metro Councillor, City Councillor. 19 Q: City Councillor, right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And did you continue your relationship 22 after he had got elected? 23 A: Continue relationship with who, with -- 24 Q: With Mr. Jakobek -- 25 A: -- Mr. Jakobek, well, relationship, he was

1 around City Hall, I mean, yeah -- yes. 2 Q: Well, did you assist him, at all, in 3 becoming or in any campaign to become a City Councillor? 4 A: I may have canvassed for him a few times, 5 yes. 6 Q: Did you help him by sending him some 7 people? 8 A: I may have, yes. 9 Q: When you say you may have, can you recall 10 whether you did or not? 11 A: I would have send people to put up signs 12 or draw up flyers, things of that nature. As I would have 13 other candidates, as well. 14 Q: I'm just particularly interested in your 15 relationship with Mr. Jakobek. When you say you would send 16 people to put up some signs and the like, where would you get 17 these people from? 18 A: People who would just be around in the 19 community that you'd meet that would want to get involved, 20 you know. 21 Q: People who were -- 22 A: Friends, relatives -- 23 Q: People who worked for the City? 24 A: No, not really. 25 Q: Did Mr. Jakobek ask you to do that, to

1 give him that assistance? 2 A: Yes, he asked for help. 3 Q: How many campaigns did you do that for for 4 Mr. Jakobek? 5 A: Probably one (1) or two (2). 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry? 7 THE WITNESS: One (1) or two (2). 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: One (1) or two (2). 9 Thanks. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 12 Q: Did Mr. Jakobek ever -- 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: We're having a little 14 trouble with the feedback, I'm not quite sure what the cause 15 is, but it's being looked after over there, I gather. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 18 Q: Did Mr. Jakobek ever thank you for your 19 assistance in canvassing and sending the people to assist in 20 his campaign? 21 A: I'd say, yes. I don't remember him 22 specifically thanking me, but -- 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, I didn't hear 24 that. 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah, he would have thanked me.

1 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 2 Q: Would you describe the relationship with 3 Mr. Jakobek as cordial? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Now, you say that Mr. Jakobek asked you to 6 attend a meeting with respect to Mayor Lastman's campaign? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: Did he tell you why he asked you to attend 9 that meeting? 10 A: He wanted to see him elected as Mayor and 11 he was trying to get as many people at that meeting. I -- 12 the sense I got is that he was the Toronto person who was 13 gathering support for him in Toronto. 14 Q: Where was this meeting, do you recall? 15 A: It was at a restaurant. I can't remember 16 the restaurant. 17 Q: Do you recall when that meeting was? Now, 18 we know the election was November of 1997, do you recall how 19 far -- 20 A: I think it was that summer -- mid-summer. 21 Q: Mid-summer? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. Now, can you recall, first of 24 all, about how many people were at this meeting? 25 A: About twenty five (25), thirty (30)

1 people. 2 Q: And do you recall who was at that meeting? 3 A: Yes, some -- some -- 4 Q: Can you give us your best recollection? 5 A: Yeah, Senator Grafestein, Dale and Blaine 6 Lastman, Paul Godfrey, John Danson was there, Len Gil -- 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry? 8 THE WITNESS: Len Gil. 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Oh, sorry, I thought you 10 said Glen Gould. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 13 Q: How would you spell Gill, G-I-L-L? 14 A: I think it's G-I-L. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: Those are the names that come to mind, 17 right now. 18 Q: Do you recall whether Rod Phillips 19 attended that meeting -- dinner? 20 A: I'm not sure. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: He may have, but I'm not sure. 23 Q: John Tory? 24 A: John Tory was there, yes. 25 Q: Jeff Lyons?

1 A: Possibly. I don't recall him there. 2 Q: When you say possibly, I take you don't 3 have a s -- specific -- 4 A: I don't have a specific -- 5 Q: -- recollection. 6 A: -- recollection of Jeff being there. 7 Q: All right. If I just might stop you at 8 Mr. Lyons, how long have you known Mr. Lyons? 9 A: On -- about fifteen (15) years, on and 10 off. 11 Q: We'll come back to him. Do you recall 12 who organized this dinner? Dinner meeting? 13 A: I don't know specifically. I just know 14 who invited me. 15 Q: All right. Now, the people that you've 16 just mentioned at -- at the dinner, did you know these people 17 on a first name basis? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Your title at the -- at campaigns was co- 20 director of campaign operations? Is that -- 21 A: I thought it was sign person but you're 22 probably right. Yes. 23 Q: I'm talking about your formal title, -- 24 A: My formal title? 25 Q: -- not what you did.

1 A: My -- I was co-director of operations 2 with Bruce Davis. 3 Q: Bruce Davis, is he -- now does he have a 4 company called Urban Intelligence? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: He is a lobbyist now? 7 A: If he considers himself a lobbyist today. 8 I don't know what he considers himself. Probably is. 9 Q: Now, I take it your -- your -- your 10 comment about, I -- I don't know specifically, but it's -- 11 A: Well, I -- 12 Q: -- you were the sign guy? 13 A: -- I was following up on what the Mayor 14 had said. I was the sign guy or whatever. 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: And -- 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You mean when he was 18 here -- 19 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- testifying? Okay. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 23 Q: What's a sign guy? 24 A: The guy who goes out and help put up some 25 signs, organizes people to put up signs.

1 Q: All right. 2 A: It's a crucial part of the campaign. 3 Q: You participated in many campaigns? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. Now, d -- did you, as the 6 director of operations, have occasion to work with the Mayor? 7 A: Very rarely. 8 Q: Th -- th -- the reputed Mayor, at that 9 point? 10 A: Very rarely. 11 Q: All right. Did -- at that point, this 12 1997 summer -- the fall election, did you know Wanda Liczyk? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Do you know of whether Wanda Liczyk ever 15 participated in -- in Mayor Lastman's campaign? 16 A: I don't -- I have no specific 17 recollections. The only recollection I have is I -- I've 18 told you, when there was an issue during the campaign 19 regarding some financial feedback, she was called on -- on 20 the phone. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: She was called on the 22 phone -- all the -- 23 THE WITNESS: On the phone. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- all the time? 25 THE WITNESS: On the phone. Telephone.

1 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 2 Q: Called on the phone to help? 3 A: Well, brought up the issue and gave some 4 advice. 5 Q: Can you t -- can you give us a -- fill us 6 in more about the circumstances. What was the issue? 7 A: It was an issue, if I recall, of a church 8 and the tax arrears and the campaign thought it was a good 9 idea to try to get the church up and going and Wanda was 10 called. 11 I remember Dale Lastman got her on the phone 12 to get her advice on whether that was a good thing to do. 13 Q: Do you remember approximately was that 14 the summer, fall, winter of 1997? 15 A: That would have been during the campaign. 16 Q: During November? 17 A: November. 18 Q: Would Ms. Liczyk have been the Chief 19 Financial Officer at that point of -- of the new City? 20 A: No. 21 22 Q: Was Mr. Danson, John Danson involved with 23 that issue, involving the church? 24 A: I think he may have been, yes. It was a 25 conference call, there was quite a few of us around.

1 Q: Who else was on that conference call, 2 besides Mr. Danson -- 3 A: I think it was myself, Rod Phillips, 4 Bruce, there was -- Dale Lastman was either there or on the 5 phone, John Danson. 6 Q: Was there any discussion prior to placing 7 the call to Ms. Liczyk about why Ms. Liczyk was called upon 8 this specific issue? 9 A: The sense I got was that the Mayor or the 10 Mayor's son, had confidence in her and wanted her opinion. 11 Q: Did you have any sense that the Mayor or 12 the Mayor's son, or anyone in relation to the Mayor's 13 campaign staff relied on Ms. Liczyk any other time? 14 A: I'm not aware of any other occasions. 15 Q: Now, if we can go forward a bit. We know 16 that, of course, the Mayor was elected, first Mayor of the 17 new City, and as I understand it you became one (1) of his 18 special assistants. 19 A: Right. 20 Q: Now, can you tell the Commissioner how 21 that came about, that you became one (1) of the Mayor's 22 special assistants? 23 A: After the campaign, he put his campaign 24 team together and I was approached by Rod Phillips, not just 25 after the election, maybe about a month or so after he put

1 his staff together. 2 Rod and I met and he asked me to join the 3 staff. 4 Q: All right. Did you have an understanding 5 whether this was with the Mayor's approval? 6 A: Yes. I didn't ask specifically, but I 7 just assumed that it was. 8 Q: All right. Did you -- I should ask the 9 question this way. 10 Mr. Slobodsky and Mr. Stein, Andrew Stein, 11 they were also special assistants to the Mayor? 12 A: Correct. They were on his staff from 13 North York. 14 Q: And, of course, you were not from that 15 North York -- 16 A: Group -- 17 Q: -- group? 18 A: -- no. 19 Q: What was your function as the Mayor's 20 special assistant? 21 A: Well, they brought me in to deal with the 22 Toronto issues. When I say the Toronto issues, you had Andy 23 and Allan who had the North York background, and they brought 24 me in mainly to continue work on Toronto issues. 25 Q: Give me --

1 A: Could be anything from TTC to policing to 2 infrastructure. 3 Q: Would you have had any dealings with Mr. 4 Lyons in that capacity? 5 A: Jeff would be around, but I had no 6 specific dealings, but he would be part of the, I guess, the 7 structure, as a lobbyist. 8 Q: All right. We'll come to that. Did you 9 assist the Mayor, as well, with federal matters? 10 A: Yes. Well, I gave them my advice as a 11 staff person whenever federal issues came up, whether it was 12 housing or funding for a project. 13 Q: Would it be accurate to say that the 14 preponderance of your working career was spent at the City of 15 Toronto? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And that your value as a special assistant 18 was mainly giving advice to the Mayor on Toronto issues? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And in that capacity, you would have 21 specific knowledge of various departments and people, in 22 those departments, at the new City? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And in some cases, you would know them on 25 a first name basis?

1 A: Some. 2 Q: And from time to time you would have 3 dealings with Ms. Liczyk, for example? 4 A: Not specifically but there were occasions 5 were there would be briefings on and new issues, yes. 6 Q: All right and IT? 7 A: That was not my background, so I had no 8 dealings with it. 9 Q: All right. We're going to come back to 10 that in a moment. 11 You left the Mayor's office as his special 12 assistant in or around April of 1999, to take on a job at 13 TEDCO? 14 A: Right. 15 Q: TEDCO is an acronym for the Toronto 16 Economical Development Corporation. 17 A: Right. 18 Q: Now, can you tell us what were the 19 circumstances that caused you to leave as the Mayor's 20 assistant after less than a year and a half and -- and go 21 over to TEDCO? 22 A: Well, there were a lot of people that had 23 left that department and they were -- 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- which department, 25 sorry?

1 THE WITNESS: TEDCO. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Oh, had left TEDCO? 3 THE WITNESS: Where people had left TEDCO and 4 I had been asked by Mike Feldman, at the time he was on the 5 board, if I was interested, in going over there and helping 6 keep it, you know, going. 7 I think -- they needed some help and he spoke 8 to the Mayor and the Mayor asked me through Rod Phillips at 9 the time, if I was interested in going over to TEDCO. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 12 Q: You say that you were asked to go over 13 there and help after a number of people had left. What was 14 to be your function? In fact, what was your function? 15 A: Vice president of operations, again. 16 Q: What did you do as vice president of 17 operations at TEDCO? 18 A: Just assessed properties, deal with the 19 tenants, things of that nature. 20 Q: Did you have occasion when you were over 21 at TEDCO to have any dealings with Mr. Lyons? 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. Paul Godfrey? 24 A: I'd speak to Paul Godfrey occasionally. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And I understand that you left TEDCO in 4 October of 1999? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: That's about six (6) months there at 7 TEDCO? 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: That was on an unpaid leave for about six 10 (6) months? 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: And we'll come t -- to those dates. What 13 were the circumstances which caused you to leave TEDCO after 14 six (6) months? 15 A: I did not get along with the chairman. I 16 was trying to get a permanent position there and that's for 17 -- I guess -- I guess, I got forced out. That's what it came 18 down to. 19 Q: Who was the chairman of TEDCO? 20 A: Fred Eisen. Fred Eisen. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Just for purposes of our 22 court reporting, can you spell that please, Mr. Manes? Is it 23 E - I -- 24 THE WITNESS: I think it's E - I -- 25 MR. RONALD MANES: E - I - S - E - N.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: E - I - S - E - N. 2 Thank you. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 5 Q: Did you have occasion before you got 6 pushed out to speak with Mr. Godfrey about the situation at 7 TEDCO? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Why was it that you chose to speak with 10 Mr. Godfrey about the situation at TEDCO? 11 A: Well, he's a person who's got a lot of 12 knowledge and he also had a great interest in the waterfront 13 and I have a relationship with Mr. Godfrey and respect his 14 opinion and spoke to him. 15 Q: Did you speak with anyone else about your 16 leaving? 17 A: I would have spoken -- yeah. Rod 18 Phillips. Especially Rod Phillips. I kept him posted. Also 19 Mike Feldman who was on the board. 20 Q: Do you recall whether you asked Mr. 21 Phillips or anyone else to speak with the Mayor about your 22 problems at TEDCO? 23 A: I did, whether it happened or not, I -- I 24 -- I don't know. 25 Q: Would that --

1 A: Obviously he can help -- 2 Q: Okay. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Now, from October 1999 to March of 2000, 7 you were on unpaid leave? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: What does that mean, unpaid leave? 10 A: Just was in a -- you keep your benefits 11 and your opportunity to get back into a another position 12 somewhere. You don't just technically leave the City, so I 13 took an unpaid leave of absence, keeping my options open. 14 Q: All right. And I understand that you 15 landed a job in the Planning Department at the City of 16 Toronto in April of 2000? 17 A: Again, I was asked at that point by Allen 18 Slobodsky, to help out with the issues they had regarding 19 Union Station, mainly on the federal side. 20 Q: Is it accurate to say that you represented 21 the City with the Federal Government during that period of 22 time? 23 A: I represented -- I helped the City, 24 representing their interests, or at least putting their 25 issues forward with the Feds, working with a team of people.

1 Q: Working with a team of -- 2 A: With a team of people, that the City had. 3 Q: Now, was this the -- in your history -- 4 your working history, was this the first time that you 5 directly did business with the Federal Government? 6 A: What do you by business? 7 Q: Of the nature that you would do with the 8 government regarding Union Station, negotiations, contractual 9 issues, et cetera? 10 A: I guess -- I guess you could say that, 11 yes. 12 Q: Now, you did that from April 2000 to 13 August of 2000, approximately three (3) months and then you 14 left -- you left the Planning Department of the City of 15 Toronto? 16 A: Well, the deal was completed and Union 17 Station was in the hands of the City. 18 Q: Before you left, did you have another job? 19 A: Well, I -- during that -- the month of 20 August, that time frame, Mike Flanagan at MFP had called me 21 and started talking to me about a job at MFP. 22 Q: What was Mr. Flanagan's position at MFP, 23 do you recall? 24 A: Vice President. 25 Q: When you say, we'll go into it more later,

1 when you say he started calling you, you are confident that 2 that was while you were working at the City of Toronto? 3 A: It was while I was working on the Union 4 Station project. 5 Q: Did you accept the position while you were 6 still working at the City of Toronto on the Union Station 7 deal? 8 A: No. 9 Q: So, am I to take it that your discussions 10 with Mr. Flanagan started in August of 2000 and continued 11 after you left City of Toronto? 12 A: Pretty much. 13 Q: When you took the job at the City of 14 Toronto on the Union Station deal, I take it that and correct 15 me if I'm wrong, that you knew that this was a temporary or 16 short term position? 17 A: Correct. I thought I had possibilities of 18 working there later on. 19 Q: Now, and again we'll get to this later. 20 As I understand it, you accepted the position at MFP and 21 started working there in about September of 2000? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And you were on a two (2) year contract? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And as I understand it, remuneration was

1 -- you were paid one hundred and fifty thousand dollars 2 ($150,000) as a draw plus a car allowance? 3 A: Right. 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Actually, how much? One 5 hundred and fifty (150)? 6 MR. RONALD MANES: One hundred and fifty 7 thousand dollars ($150,000) per year -- 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 9 MR. RONALD MANES: -- and a car allowance. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 12 Q: And I further understand that you left 13 MFP's employ in or about March of 2000 and were paid out the 14 balance of your contract which was presumably ended at the 15 end of August or September of 2002? 16 A: That's correct. 17 MR. DAVID MOORE: Did My Friend say -- 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, I think 19 that's wrong. Yeah. Mr. Manes, you said he left MFP's 20 employ about March 2000. 21 MR. RONALD MANES: Oh, sorry. March 2002. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 25 Q: So -- so your contract was -- would have

1 been terminated four (4) or five (5) months prior to the 2 contractual termination date? 3 A: Right. 4 Q: And that -- as I understand, you are -- 5 you are not employed at the present time? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: If I might, I -- I'd like to take you 8 back to your employment in the Mayor's office which would 9 have been in 1998 until April of 1999, when you went over to 10 TEDCO. 11 First of all, can you assist us at all with 12 what the general atmosphere was in the -- in the Mayor's 13 office after amalgamation? 14 A: Hectic. Very hectic. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: It was hectic? 16 THE WITNESS: Hectic. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Is that what you said? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 22 Q: Could you tell me, was it one (1) of the 23 functions of the staff to advise the Mayor on, including your 24 function -- on various issues that the Mayor would seek their 25 advice on? For example, dealings with Councillors and issues

1 involved in the -- in the City government et cetera? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And how many staff assistants did the 4 Mayor have to provide that kind of assistance? 5 A: About four (4) or five (5). 6 Q: Including yourself? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And I take it you'll tell me that -- that 9 as far you were concerned, those four (4) or five (5) staff 10 were competent at their jobs? 11 A: I think so. 12 Q: Did the Mayor seek advice on the 13 operation of the -- the City from other than his staff? That 14 is outside his staff? 15 A: I think he did. 16 Q: Okay. We've heard reference to the 17 Mayor's kitchen cabinet. Is that something -- a term you're 18 familiar with? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: What's a kitchen cabinet? 21 A: A group of people I think -- I think it's 22 a group of people that the Mayor has confidence in who would 23 meet occasionally, weekly or bi-weekly, depending on the 24 agendas. 25 Q: Who would you say in your experience in

1 and in your judgement, was the person that the Mayor relied 2 on primarily in his kitchen cabinet? 3 A: Well, I was never there. I wasn't invited 4 to one (1) of those meetings. Probably Paul Godfrey, John 5 Tory. 6 Q: And why do you say, given your experience 7 and knowledge that it was probably Paul Godfrey and John 8 Tory? 9 A: I don't know per se, I'm giving you my 10 calculated guess, two (2) guys who have been around, know the 11 issues very well, former Metro Chairman. 12 Q: The Mayor had a close relationship with 13 Paul Godfrey, is that correct? 14 A: I think so. 15 Q: Would it be fair to describe them as very 16 close friends? 17 A: I think so. 18 Q: Did the Mayor have the same type of 19 relationship with John Tory, in your estimation? 20 A: I don't think as close, no. 21 Q: Now, can you -- can you tell us who was in 22 the Mayor's kitchen cabinet other than Mr. Godfrey and Mr. 23 Tory? 24 A: As I say, I've never been there, but just 25 some of the names that I would hear, Mike Holt, a MPP --

1 Q: He was a liberal MPP? 2 A: Right. I think Herschel Ezrin, Rod 3 Phillips would attend, I'm sure there was others, but -- 4 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Could you just spell Mr. 5 Ezrin's name for the Court Reporter, please? 6 MR. RONALD MANES: Herschel is H-E-R-S-C-H-E- 7 L. 8 THE WITNESS: I'm not 100 percent he was 9 there, but, that's a name that I would hear. 10 MR. RONALD MANES: E-Z-R-I-N. That's what I 11 understand. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Is it E-Z or E-S? 13 MR. RONALD MANES: If I might just have a 14 moment. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Anyway it doesn't matter, 16 we can get back to that. I just want, Mr. Nigro, just so you 17 know. 18 You see that woman sitting way over there, it 19 is helpful for -- she's the Court Reporter and they need the 20 correct spellings of names. 21 So, don't worry too much, we can get Mr. Manes 22 to do all of that work. Okay. 23 MR. RONALD MANES: It is H-E-R-S-C-H-E-L, E-Z- 24 R-I-M. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Thanks.

1 2 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 3 Q: Would Jeff Lyons have been in the kitchen 4 cabinet? 5 A: He may have. 6 Q: John Danson? 7 A: I'm not sure. I'm not sure about John 8 Danson, mainly because that was a -- the Mayor's group -- 9 somebody chose -- I don't think John was there. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: But I could be wrong. 12 Q: Now, while you were at the City, and I 13 want to take you back to this, you had dealings on occasion 14 with Wanda Liczyk? 15 A: Strictly in briefings. 16 Q: I think what you're saying is that there 17 were occasions when you briefed the Mayor on certain issues 18 and Ms. Liczyk was in attendance? 19 A: In attendance, correct. 20 Q: Would she be in attendance with others, or 21 would she be in attendance solely with you and she and the 22 Mayor? 23 A: No, it would be a monthly briefing session 24 -- 25 Q: All right.

1 A: -- with maybe ten (10), eleven (11) 2 people. 3 Q: Would Mr. Garrett? 4 A: Mr. Garrett would be there, Finance, 5 Shirley Hoy, mainly the Commissioners, and the staff people 6 -- the appropriate staff people on the appropriate issues at 7 the time would be. 8 Q: Were you ever in a position to see Ms. 9 Liczyk's comings and goings in relation to the Mayor's 10 office? 11 A: Well, I worked there so, I'd see all kinds 12 of people coming and going. 13 Q: Would you say that Ms. Liczyk was a 14 frequent or infrequent visitor to the Mayor's office? 15 A: I'd say frequent. 16 Q: Could you tell us your impression as to 17 the kind of access that Ms. Liczyk had to the Mayor? 18 A: Well, when I was there, she had fairly 19 good access. I mean she was obviously from North York and 20 they had a relationship from North York and she had free 21 access. 22 Q: Did you have, from your -- your 23 knowledge, in your dealings with -- with the Mayor, Ms. 24 Liczyk in the briefings and her comings and goings, did you 25 have any sense of Ms. Liczyk's relationship with Mr. Garrett,

1 the CAO? 2 A: Not in the early -- not -- not in the 3 early stages, no. 4 Q: Did an impression develop over time? 5 A: Well at times I -- I thought and the 6 growing sense was that there was a bit of friction there. 7 And specifically where, I don't know, but I just got the 8 sense there was a bit of friction there. 9 Q: Can you tell us what the sense was as to 10 the source of that friction? 11 A: Just general commentaries I guess, 12 afterwards, and just you know, when you leave the room 13 quickly, or you know, you -- you could sense there was some 14 -- at times, some friction. 15 Q: Did you know that Ms. Liczyk had sought 16 the CAO's job at the City? 17 A: Well, I'd heard that she was interested 18 in that position. 19 Q: Did you have any sense that -- that -- of 20 the fact that Mr. Garrett occupied that position instead of 21 Ms. Liczyk, had it caused any kind of friction between them? 22 A: Well, the -- the -- the rumour at the 23 time was that all the North York crowd was getting all the 24 key jobs, and you know, there was this North York against 25 everybody else type of attitude early on in the stages, and I

1 -- I think that was part of the friction. 2 Q: When you say the rumour, that -- that was 3 the perception? 4 A: Well, it was the perception. 5 Q: And I take it that in your dealings with 6 Ms. Liczyk, there was nothing in your dealings with Ms. 7 Liczyk, where she ever suggested to you, or your dealings 8 with Mr. Garrett, where he ever suggested to you that there 9 was any friction, but rather this was a perception? 10 A: Strictly perception. 11 Q: Yeah. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now, I'd like to speak with you about 16 Dash Domi and your relationship with him, dealings with him. 17 Firstly, can you tell me whether you have had any occasion to 18 speak with Mr. Domi about the Inquiry here? 19 A: Not recently. 20 Q: When was the last time you spoke with him 21 about the Inquiry? 22 A: About two/three (2/3) weeks ago. 23 Q: What were the circumstances? 24 A: More general from the standpoint of his 25 -- you know, stress and just --

1 Q: In -- in telling me what the 2 circumstances were, perhaps you can first tell me, did you 3 contact him or did he contact you? 4 A: He called me. 5 Q: On -- on the telephone, I take it? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And how long was the telephone call? 8 A: A few minutes. 9 Q: Was he calling from -- from work? 10 A: His cell phone. 11 Q: From his cell phone? And you said that 12 it had -- this call had to do with stress? 13 A: Well, yeah, just he was telling me that 14 he -- he was having a tough time, you know, all the media 15 attention. 16 Q: Anything else that you can recall, he 17 said he was having a tough time because of all the media 18 attention? 19 A: Yeah, I try to avoid his calls basically, 20 as well. 21 Q: He had called you -- 22 A: Well, he would have left me messages, but 23 I would never return them. 24 Q: Did he, during the course of this brief 25 conversation, ask you when you expected to give evidence?

1 A: No. 2 Q: Did he tell you what he was doing at MFP, 3 at that time? 4 A: Looking over transcripts. 5 Q: Did he tell you that during his telephone 6 call? 7 A: I think he did say he was looking at 8 transcripts. 9 Q: And did he elaborate on that? 10 A: No. 11 Q: So he talked about the stress, the media 12 attention, he told you he was looking at transcripts. Any 13 other conversation that you can think of? 14 A: Not that I can recall. 15 Q: Do you recall if he -- if he told you 16 what transcripts he was looking at? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Have you been following the -- 19 A: A little bit. 20 Q: -- on the web? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Have you been looking at the transcripts? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Did you tell him that you were looking at 25 the transcripts as well?

1 A: No. 2 Q: And that was the -- the conversation two 3 (2) or three (3) weeks ago, I take it there's been no 4 conversations since that time? 5 A: No. 6 Q: You took a moment to pause there, is that 7 -- are you confident -- 8 A: Well, he's left me some messages and 9 stuff, but I -- 10 Q: Did you tell him that -- 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, I think -- I 12 don't know if you were finished. He left you some 13 messages -- 14 THE WITNESS: Just some messages, I never 15 returned the calls. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 19 Q: Did you tell him during the course of 20 your conversation two (2) or three (3) weeks ago, that you 21 didn't want to talk to him? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Did you tell him why? 24 A: I just thought it was smart and that, you 25 know, we all stay within our own focussed areas and prepare.

1 Q: He was telling you what he was doing in 2 preparation, that is reading the transcripts. Did you tell 3 him what you were doing in preparation? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Did you tell him that -- 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: In fairness, Mr. Manes, 7 I don't think he said he was reading the transcripts in 8 preparation. I -- 9 MR. RONALD MANES: All right, sorry -- 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- I didn't hear Mr. 11 Nigro to be saying that. 12 MR. DAVID MOORE: I don't -- I mean, it's 13 easier just to sit here and let this go in, but -- 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes. 15 MR. DAVID MOORE: -- I don't know, how far 16 this is going, or this is something My Friend is suggesting 17 is inappropriate about this, but I'll just sit here and 18 listen I guess, for the time being. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. I just wanted to 20 make sure that he was -- that in questioning him, that we -- 21 we just make sure, Mr. Manes, that in citing Mr. Nigro, I 22 didn't hear him to say that Mr. Domi was saying that he was 23 reading the transcripts in preparation, just that he was 24 reading transcripts. 25 Did -- did I get that wrong, Mr. Nigro?

41
  1                 THE WITNESS:   No, you're right.
  2                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:   Okay.
  3  
  4  CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES:   
  5                 Q:   All right.  Then let me -- let me just
  6  ask you about that.
  7                 In telling you that -- that he was reading the
  8  transcripts, did he tell you or did you form the impression
  9  from what he said, that he was preparing for the Inquiry?
 10                 A:   Yes.
 11                 Q:   And that -- 
 12                 A:   Yes.
 13                 Q:   Is that something that he -- he told you?
 14                 A:   No, I just sensed it.
 15                 Q:   All right.  Did you tell him what
 16  preparation you were doing?
 17                 A:   No.
 18                 Q:   All right.  Did you tell him that you
 19  were looking at the transcripts?
 20                 A:   No.
 21                 Q:   Okay.  Now, you told us that that
 22  conversation occurred two (2) or three (3) weeks ago -- 
 23                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:   Just so you know, Mr.
 24  Nigro, there's nothing wrong with looking at the transcripts,
 25  all right.  It's on the web on purpose so people can have

1 ready access to it, and I'm happy if people are looking at 2 the transcripts, all right. 3 Mr. Manes...? 4 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 7 Q: Did you -- you testified that you avoided 8 his calls, you didn't return his -- some of his previous 9 calls. Do you recall when you spoke with him previously, 10 that is previous to this two (2) or three (3) weeks ago? 11 A: Probably on the weekend. 12 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry. 13 THE WITNESS: The weekend. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: The weekend? 15 THE WITNESS: Hmm hmm. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 18 Q: How long ago was that? 19 A: This past weekend. 20 Q: Oh, this past weekend. All right, and 21 can you give me the circumstances of that conversation? 22 A: Sure. He called to -- once again, 23 stressed out, and I kept the conversation very short. 24 Q: Help me with this, you said that -- that 25 conversation that you had with him two (2) or three (3) weeks

1 ago, that he told you he thought it was best that they not -- 2 you not speak. 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: But he then called this weekend. 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And do you recall, was he -- do you 7 recall when that conversation took place? 8 A: Late in the afternoon. I was -- late in 9 the afternoon. 10 Q: On -- on a weekday or weekend? 11 A: On a weekend. 12 Q: And how long was that conversation? 13 A: A couple of minutes, not even. 14 Q: Was it from his cell phone or was he -- a 15 land phone? 16 A: Well, he had left me a mess -- yeah, it 17 was f -- I'm pretty sure it was from his cell phone. 18 Q: He had left you a message? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And you called him back? 21 A: I didn't call him back, then he called me 22 back. 23 Q: All right and can you tell us what was 24 discussed during that telephone call? 25 A: Just strictly like I've said. Just that

1 he felt very, very stressed out and didn't know where to 2 turn, actually. Those were his exact words. 3 Q: Can you explain what tha -- what -- what 4 -- what -- like, can -- did he expand on what he meant by he 5 didn't know where to turn? 6 A: I just got the sense that he was on his 7 own. 8 Q: Did he tell you that he had any concerns 9 about giving evidence to the Inquiry? 10 A: Not to me. 11 MR. DAVID MOORE: Can I -- can I just inquire 12 -- I mean, what the relevance of this is and how far My 13 Friend intends to go with this. I mean -- I just don't 14 understand. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes? I -- I 16 assume that most people who come to testify, whether it's at 17 an Inquiry or whether it's in court are -- are not usually, 18 as a rule, happy about having to be here and that some of 19 them would have concerns. So I -- I'm not sure quite where 20 you were going with that. 21 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, Commissioner, I'm -- 22 I'm interested in -- in the fact that Mr. Nigro had 23 conversations with -- 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Hmm hmm. 25 MR. RONALD MANES: -- Mr. Domi and the fact

1 that he had conversations with Mr. Domi even though he'd told 2 Mr. Domi that he didn't want to have conversations. I'm 3 interested in the fact that Mr. Domi told Mr. Nigro certain 4 things and exactly what he told him and I'll be asking Mr. 5 Nigro about those things that he told him. 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I -- I don't -- I -- 7 MR. RONALD MANES: -- nothing necessarily. 8 MR. DAVID MOORE: I'm not even interested in 9 that. So what -- I mean, what does it got -- I mean, we're 10 here to, I would have thought, to heard evidence about the 11 transactions and events and what happened and relative to -- 12 to the terms of reference of the Inquiry and dissecting what 13 -- what -- two (2) people who worked together and knew each 14 other in the past may or may not have discussed blow by blow 15 leading up to the Inquiry, I -- I question, myself, as to the 16 relevance. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Well, I think 18 there is -- I think that it's relevant, that clearly 19 credibility is going to be something that I am going to have 20 to have to make a decision about at some point or another. 21 So I think, Mr. Nigro, we're trying to get a sense of -- you 22 know, you're the one who's been talking with Dash Domi and 23 we're just trying to get a sense through Mr. Manes as to what 24 the conversation was about. 25 Roughly, you know, how many you've had,

1 especially in the last little while and I expect that over 2 the course of the next few days you'll be asked questions 3 about conversations you've had with Mr. Domi and a whole 4 bunch of other people as well. 5 So I think what we've got is you mentioned 6 that there was some conversation a few weeks. He told you 7 not to call him -- or you told him, sorry, not to call you. 8 He has still called you and Mr. Manes is just trying to get a 9 sense of, just sort of generally, what the conversations have 10 been about. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 13 Q: So just to -- to -- to recap, Mr. Nigro, 14 Commissioner. I this telephone call on, was it last weekend? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: On last weekend Mr. Domi said that or 17 left the impression that he was stressed out and in 18 particular, he said to you that he had no where to turn or 19 that he was on his own. I think we're -- 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: And then I asked you to elaborate on what 22 he meant by, I think it was 'on his own', as to whether he 23 said -- 24 A: He didn't say anything. The impression I 25 got is that, obviously the people he thought were friends of

47
  1  his around him, whether personal or whatever, you know, I got
  2  the sense that he was been abandoned a little bit, you know.
  3                 Q:  Did Mr. Domi ask how you felt?  
  4                 A:  No.
  5                 Q:  And during that conversation did Mr. Domi
  6  tell you what he was doing at MFP, at that point?
  7                 A:  No, not at that point.
  8                 Q:  So, we had spoken about a conversation two
  9  (2) or three (3) weeks ago and a conversation this past
 10  weekend.  
 11                 Do you recall other conversations that you've
 12  had with Mr. Domi, with respect to the Inquiry, since the
 13  Inquiry was called in March of 2002?
 14                 A:  Well, once I got let go from MFP, our
 15  conversations obviously have been less and less and less. 
 16  But never a lot of specifics about the Inquiry.  I just try
 17  to keep to myself on that.
 18                 Q:  Well, let me give you an example.  If you
 19  recall in October of last year, the Inquiry was adjourned for
 20  investigation.  Do you recall having a conversation with Mr.
 21  Domi regarding that adjournment?
 22                 A:  Well, he  -- I was at the hospital that
 23  day, he had called left me a message, I called him back and
 24  he had told me that it had been adjourned.
 25                 Q:  Yes.  You were at the hospital?  What --

1 A: My father was in the hospital, at that 2 point. 3 Q: Right. I thought it was the General 4 Hospital? 5 A: No, it was Toronto Western. 6 Q: All right. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Just to make sure I heard 8 you right. He said he had been interviewed, is that what you 9 said? 10 THE WITNESS: No, he phoned to let me know 11 that the Inquiry had been put on hold. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 14 Q: Right. Do you recall what he said to you? 15 A: That there was an investigation and that 16 it would resume at some point. That was it. 17 Q: Do you recall whether he said anything to 18 you about what he thought the investigation was about? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Do you recall in that conversation, 21 whether there was anything other than simply telling you that 22 the Inquiry had been adjourned for an investigation? 23 A: Not to my recollection, that was about it. 24 Q: I take it that you know that the Toronto 25 Star, ran an article about some allegations that we're going

1 to hear about here involving Toronto lobbyists. Did you read 2 that article? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Did you have a discussion with Mr. Domi 5 about that article? 6 A: No. 7 Q: When you read that article did -- were any 8 of the allegations familiar to you, any of the evidence that 9 was being alleged there, familiar to you? 10 A: No. 11 Q: At any time since the calling of this 12 Inquiry, have you met with Mr. Domi? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: How many times have you met with Mr. Domi? 15 A: During the summer, a couple of times. 16 Q: Where did those meetings take place? 17 A: One (1) was at a local gym, the other one 18 (1) was at a coffee shop. 19 Q: Now, just for our record here, do you 20 recall where -- where the local gym was that you met? 21 A: On St. Clair, yeah. 22 Q: St. Clair -- 23 A: It was the St. Clair Gym, it was during 24 the summer, something like -- 25 Q: Does Mr. Domi live around St. Clair, do

1 you know? 2 A: No. 3 Q: You live at Christie and St. Clair? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Do you remember when that meeting was in 6 particular? 7 A: No, not really. 8 Q: All right, and was the meeting at the 9 coffee shop -- well, just with the local gym meeting, was 10 that your -- do you recall whether -- I can't recall your 11 evidence, was that meeting during the summer? 12 A: Yeah, it was during the summer. 13 Q: And the meeting at the coffee shop, was 14 that subsequent to the meeting at the gym? 15 A: I think it was after -- I think it was 16 afterwards. 17 Q: Afterwards. You don't recall how long? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Now, whose idea was the first meeting? 20 A: Well it both his, both Domi's. 21 Q: And where did you meet at the local gym, 22 is there a coffee shop there or something? 23 A: In the -- in the reception area. 24 Q: How long did you meet for? 25 A: Fifteen/twenty (15/20) minutes.

1 Q: When Mr. Domi set up the meeting, did he 2 tell you what he wanted to talk about? 3 A: No, just a lot of hand holding kind of 4 thing. 5 Q: Can you give us your best recollection of 6 what was discussed during the course of that meeting? 7 A: Nothing specific, just like I said, you 8 know, he just had no sense of where this whole thing was 9 going. And just a lot of hand holding really, it was -- 10 there was nothing specific. 11 Q: Did he talk with you about his interviews 12 with Commission Counsel? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Did he talk with you about his expenses 15 at MFP? 16 A: Not real -- no. 17 Q: I'm just talking about the -- the meeting 18 at the local gym? 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: And your evidence is that there was no 21 discussion about his expenses -- 22 A: Didn't -- 23 Q: -- at that meeting? 24 A: -- not at that meeting. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And you told us that when you -- when you 4 talked with him on the weekend, that he felt that he was on 5 his own. Could you tell me whether there was any such 6 discussion at the meeting at the local gym. That is, did he 7 tell you how he felt? 8 A: I think he was frustrated at that point 9 as well. 10 Q: Did he tell you -- that was your 11 impression? 12 A: That was my impression. 13 Q: All right, now how did you form that 14 impression, Mr. Nigro, can you tell us about that? 15 A: He just you know, he just -- he just 16 rambles on and rambles on, and I just got the sense that he 17 was very frustrated at that point. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Then he called you to set up another 22 meeting, and this time at the coffee shop? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Did he tell you why he wanted to meet at 25 the coffee shop?

1 A: Again, I guess he's just so used to 2 talking to me all the time, and then you know, you -- there 3 was a -- a time where you -- you leave, and I -- I just got 4 the sense all the time that he just wanted to, you know, get 5 together. 6 I just don't think he's got as many friends 7 as -- 8 Q: Well he certainly considered you a 9 friend? 10 A: I think so. 11 Q: We'll get into that in a little bit more 12 detail. Do you recall how long the meeting was at the coffee 13 shop? 14 A: About twenty (20) minutes. 15 Q: Where was the coffee shop again? 16 A: College Street. 17 Q: College street. And let's go a specific 18 -- this meeting at the coffee shop, did Mr. Domi discuss his 19 expenses with you? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Could you tell me whether you have a -- a 22 recollection of what he discussed with you? What the 23 conversation -- 24 A: Just again, I -- I think the conversation 25 was more along the lines of his situation at MFP. He had the

1 sense, he didn't know whether he was coming or going there. 2 You know, it was more about that. 3 Q: Can you elaborate about what he told you 4 about his situation at MFP and -- 5 A: I think he just got the sense that they 6 were just keeping him around. I -- I -- I think his 7 frustration was more around that. 8 Q: Did he tell you whether he was out doing 9 sales calls or conducting h -- his ordinary job or whether he 10 had a different kind of job? 11 A: No. I don't think he was doing anything. 12 I don't think he was going on any specific sales calls, no. 13 Q: Did he have any sense of why he was being 14 kept around at MFP if he wasn't going on sales calls and if - 15 - 16 A: For the Inquiry. 17 Q: Is that was he said? 18 A: He may have said it. 19 Q: Can you -- can you tell why he thought 20 MFP was keeping him around for the Inquiry? 21 MR. DAVID MOORE: Well, isn't that something 22 that Mr. Domi should answer? It's a specific conversation 23 that the witness recalls. I mean, we have attempted to 24 cooperate with the Inquiry, including Mr. -- in making Mr. 25 Domi available, et cetera, et cetera. I'm not going to

1 belabour it but -- but -- you know, again, I'm not sure what 2 the relevance in that -- in this -- in -- is there a spe -- 3 specific point to the conversation that My Friend wants to 4 ask him about, he should do so. 5 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Mr. Manes? 6 MR. RONALD MANES: The question was can you 7 tell us why Mr. Domi told you that he thought MFP -- 8 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, he won't be able 9 to say why -- why Mr. Domi told him but he -- 10 MR. RONALD MANES: But whether Mr. Domi told 11 him? 12 THE WITNESS: I thought he w -- he was just 13 frustrated. I mean, he had no sense of what his situation 14 was. That's the best of my recollection, Mr. Manes. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 17 Q: As I understand your evidence, we can 18 read back the transcript for Mr. Moore, that you had -- you 19 had said that Mr. Domi told you that he thought that MFP was 20 just keeping him around for the Inquiry? 21 A: Yeah, he may have said that. 22 Q: All right and my next question to you was 23 why did he -- did Mr. Domi tell you why he thought that the 24 -- that MFP was just keeping him around for the Inquiry? 25 A: I just sensed that -- I -- he just said,

1 no one over there was talking to him, giving him, you know, 2 where he was at. 3 Q: Did he talk to you about what he was 4 doing at MFP to lead you to believe that he wasn't doing 5 anything at the time? 6 A: I don't think he was doing anything. 7 Q: Can you tell us your recollection, the 8 best as you can, of the conversation, what -- how you formed 9 the basis of that conclusion? That he probably wasn't doing 10 anything? 11 A: I don't think it was anything specific 12 but I -- I just -- that's the best of my recollection. I 13 mean... 14 Q: In the conversation at the local gym or 15 the conversation at the coffee shop did Mr. Domi ever discuss 16 your -- or talk to you about any of his relationships at the 17 City? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Did he ever talk to you or discuss with 20 you any of his relationships with MFP by name? 21 A: Well, he had a good relationship with 22 Mike Flanagan, Rob Wilkinson -- maybe with Rob Wilkinson a 23 close relationship, I thought, a good working relationship 24 and Mike Flanagan. It's a very -- not many people there to 25 start with and those are the two (2) people I think he had a

1 cordial relationship with Peter Wolfraim. 2 Q: Irene Payne? 3 A: Yes, I think so. 4 Q: I guess my question was about discussions 5 regarding people at MFP. Was your evidence -- 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You mean at the gym or at 7 the coffee shop? 8 MR. RONALD MANES: At either the gym or the 9 coffee shop. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 12 Q: Was the evidence that you just gave about 13 the relationship with Mike Flanagan or Rob Wilkinson, et 14 cetera, were those -- 15 A: Those conversations never came up at the 16 coffee shop. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: You're asking me what I thought his 19 relationship was with these people. That's the question I'm 20 giving you. Those conversations never happened at those two 21 (2) meetings, no. 22 Q: Right. So, he didn't discuss anyone from 23 the City and he didn't discussion anyone, in particular, from 24 MFP, during the times -- during the time he met with you at 25 the local gym or the coffee shop?

1 A: I don't recall per se, I mean he may have 2 said that Mike Flanagan was -- he was trying to get a sense 3 from him. He may have said that. I don't recall -- exactly 4 what his wording is on that. 5 Q: Now, have you told us -- from the best of 6 your recollection, the meetings and telephone calls that 7 you've had with Mr. Domi regarding the Inquiry? 8 A: Can you repeat the question please? 9 Q: Have you told us, from the best of your 10 recollection, the meetings and telephone calls that you've 11 had with Mr. Domi regarding the Inquiry? 12 A: Pretty well, yes. 13 Q: Thank you. Let me then take you to the 14 background of your relationship with Mr. Domi. Can you tell 15 me, what were the circumstances and when were the 16 circumstances that you met Dash Domi? 17 A: Well, I knew Dash's sister and one (1) of 18 his relatives. And he I think, I'm not sure, sometime after 19 he got the job, he -- actually it was one (1) of his 20 relative's friends, who called me and said, he would be 21 giving me a call. And then he started showing up. 22 Q: When did -- his sister is Trish? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: You met Mr. Domi through his sister Trish? 25 A: Correct.

1 Q: When would that have been? 2 A: I think about a year or two (2) before 3 '97, '95 and '6, somewhere in there. 4 Q: All right. Now, do you recall whether you 5 as well met him, coincidentally through Fred Pristine? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: Now, that's P-R-I-S-T-I-N-E. Now, can you 8 tell me, who is Fred Pristine? 9 A: I think he's some sort of a relative. And 10 I've known Fred for about twenty (20) years. 11 Q: What's his business? 12 A: Printing business. 13 Q: Did he own a hairdressing salon? 14 A: I'm not sure. I don't know. He worked in 15 a hair salon, but, I don't think he owned it. 16 Q: He worked at a hair salon? 17 A: Right. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: You mean Fred or Dash? 19 THE WITNESS: Fred. 20 MR. RONALD MANES: Fred? 21 THE WITNESS: No, Fred owns a printing shop. 22 MR. RONALD MANES: All right. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 25 Q: Dash worked as a hairdresser?

1 A: That's what I'm told. 2 Q: Did you know him -- 3 A: When he was a hairdresser -- 4 Q: -- assuming he worked as a hairdresser, 5 did you know -- 6 A: -- no. 7 Q: -- him when he worked as a hairdresser? 8 When you met Dash through Trish, and coincidently through 9 Fred Pristine, what was Dash doing for a living? 10 A: At that time, I think he was working for 11 Fred Pristine -- at a stint with Pristine. 12 Q: What was he doing for Mr. Pristine? 13 A: I have no idea. 14 Q: Since the time you met Dash until today, 15 you have had conversations and met with him innumerable 16 numbers of times. Is that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: In all those times, did Mr. Domi ever tell 19 you about his background, working as -- in a hair salon? 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: In a what? 21 MR. RONALD MANES: Hair salon. 22 THE WITNESS: He would joke about the fact 23 that he had a lot of good times working as a hairdresser. 24 Q: Now, I take it that would have -- that 25 would have been before he was working with Mr. Pristine?

1 A: No, I met him when he was with Mr. 2 Pristine, I didn't really know him when he was a hairdresser. 3 Q: And in terms of your relationship with 4 Mr. Domi, did you ever go to the Domi house? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Innumeral -- innumerable occasions? 7 A: No, some occasions, not innumerable, no. 8 Q: Did you know the Domi family? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Did you consider yourself close with the 11 Domi family and Mr. Domi? 12 A: Well, I knew his mother -- I know his 13 mother and -- 14 Q: All right. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And from your relationship with Mr. Domi 19 and the Domi family, in specific his -- his mother, did you 20 have an understanding that Mr. Domi had a relationship with 21 Paul Godfrey? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Did you have an understanding that Mr. 24 Domi had a relationship with Rob Godfrey -- 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: -- Paul Godfrey's son? Can you tell me, 2 what was your understanding of Mr. Domi's relationship with 3 Paul Godfrey? 4 A: My sense is that they had a good, strong 5 relationship. Mentor type -- type relationship. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: That's my guess of it. 8 Q: What was his relationship with Rob 9 Godfrey? 10 A: Very good, close, buddies. 11 Q: And again taking you back then, a 12 relationship with John Danson? 13 A: Dash's? 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Back when? 15 MR. RONALD MANES: Back then. This is -- 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: '95/96 area? 17 MR. RONALD MANES: Yes. 18 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes. 19 THE WITNESS: I -- I don't know. 20 MR. DAVID MOORE: I really didn't understand 21 what the time frame was. 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 23 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well let's -- 25 MR. DAVID MOORE: Please clarify that.

1 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- let's clarify that. 2 Thank you, Mr. Moore. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 5 Q: The relationship with Mr. Godfrey, Paul 6 Godfrey and Rob Godfrey, was that a relationship that you -- 7 that you learned about back in '95/96? 8 A: No, it was probably closer to '97, in 9 that area. 10 Q: All right. Now -- now I'm coming to -- 11 to John Danson. Is that a relationship that you learned 12 about in 1997 or around that area? 13 A: Of Dash's and John's? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: John Danson was Mayor Lastman's campaign 17 manager? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And what did you -- what did you 20 understand as to the -- the nature of their relationship? 21 A: Friends, liked each other. 22 Q: All right. When you -- after Mr. Domi 23 worked for Fred Pristine in some -- in some way, did he as 24 far as you know, go to work for someone else other than MFP, 25 or before he went to work for MFP?

1 A: I don't know. 2 Q: Did you know him when, assuming this is 3 right, that he was working at a gym? 4 A: No, I knew him when he was working with 5 Fred Pristine, a little bit, and then he started showing up 6 at City Hall. 7 Q: This is after he worked for -- started to 8 work for MFP, or before? 9 A: Dash? 10 Q: Yeah? 11 A: No, when he started to work for MFP. 12 Q: In other words, he started showing up at 13 City Hall -- 14 A: Yeah -- 15 Q: -- after -- 16 A: -- when he had the -- 17 Q: All right. 18 A: But I did not know him when he had the 19 gym, no. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: I never was in his gym, either. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: In the course of your relationship, you

1 would have had discussions and -- and we've produced some of 2 them, we've heard some of them, regarding his time as a 3 hairdresser? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you had discussions regarding his time 6 at the gym? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Was your impression from Mr. Domi that he 9 was successful at both being a hairdresser and what he did at 10 the gym? 11 A: I think so. Well, that's the impression 12 he gave me. 13 Q: Did -- in your discussions with him, did 14 you get an impression as to what was the main basis for his 15 success as a hairdresser and at the gym? 16 A: People person. He just wanted to deal 17 with people. 18 Q: Now, that was your impression from him. 19 What's your own opinion of what -- 20 A: I think he was a people person. I think 21 he works it hard. And he works hard at building 22 relationships. 23 Q: You knew that prior to him going with MFP? 24 A: Yeah, yeah I think so. 25 Q: Were you of the view that in relation to

1 your own relationship, that he worked it hard? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Prior to him going to MFP? 4 A: Not as hard as afterwards. 5 Q: Not as hard as afterwards? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: My sense in speaking -- in your evidence, 8 is that you did not know that Mr. Domi had a job at MFP, 9 until a relative told you? 10 A: Yes. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And did you in 1997, 1998, know Dave 15 Robson? 16 A: I met Dave Robson through Dash. 17 Q: This is after he worked at MFP? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. We'll go into that. I take it 20 the answer to my question, is no, you didn't know him prior 21 to -- 22 A: Oh, I didn't know him prior to that, yes. 23 Q: All right. When did Mr. Domi first 24 approach you on behalf of MFP? 25 A: Can't remember specifically but he -- the

1 first time he came around, he had told me that he had been 2 given the City account and that he wanted to meet as many 3 people as he could. 4 Q: He'd been given the City account and he 5 wanted to meet as many people as he could. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Now, we know that Mr. Domi signed an 10 agreement October 26th, 1997, and according -- with MFP and 11 according to the evidence, started working at MFP sometime in 12 the beginning of November. That's what we know at this 13 point. 14 In relation to the evidence that you just gave 15 on the first approach on behalf of MFP, where he said he'd 16 been given the City account, can you recall when that was, 17 what month? 18 A: Maybe in January. I don't recall 19 specifically. 20 Q: January of 1999 -- 21 MR. DAVID MOORE: '98. 22 MR. RONALD MANES: '98 -- 23 THE WITNESS: '98 maybe. 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Just I think -- Mr. 25 Moore, it's a mistake on a year, I don't think it's a big

1 deal. 2 I think Mr. Manes, you asked him, he said that 3 Dash Domi signed the agreement in October '97, I think you 4 meant '98. 5 MR. RONALD MANES: '98 -- 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: And so you're behind in a 7 year on everything. 8 MR. RONALD MANES: So, I'm -- 9 MADAM COMMISSIONER: So, you started the 10 beginning of '98, you said '97. 11 MR. RONALD MANES: That's right. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 14 Q: So, I take it -- when you refer to January 15 you're talking about January 1999? 16 MR. DAVID MOORE: I guess my concern, Madam 17 Commissioner, is -- 18 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, I'd like to get an 19 answer from the witness before -- 20 THE WITNESS: Mr. Manes, I can't recall the 21 specific -- 22 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Why don't we take 23 the morning break. 24 Mr. Nigro, you've been following the 25 transcripts. We usually take a break around 11:30 and we'll

69
  1  break for twenty minutes, and then usually in the afternoon
  2  we take a break as well.
  3                 Okay.  And if you find that you need a break
  4  for any reason, you just let me know.
  5                 THE WITNESS:  Okay.
  6                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:  All right. You're not
  7  forced to be here, sitting there, if you need a break.
  8                 THE WITNESS:  Thank you. 
  9                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:  All right.   
 10                 THE REGISTRAR:   The Inquiry will recess until
 11  ten (10) to 12:00.
 12  
 13  --- Upon recessing at 11:30 a.m.
 14  
 15  --- Upon resuming at 11:50 p.m.
 16  
 17                 THE REGISTRAR:   The Inquiry will resume. 
 18  Please be seated.
 19  
 20                       (BRIEF PAUSE)
 21  
 22                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:   Yes, Mr. Manes?
 23                 MR. RONALD MANES:   Thank you, Commissioner.
 24  
 25  CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES:

1 Q: Mr. Nigro, I hope we left off in the -- 2 in the right year, since I've been a year behind. It's 3 January of 1999, at this point. Perhaps it would be of some 4 assistance if I mark the Exhibits that I'm supposed to mark, 5 Commissioner. 6 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 7 MR. RONALD MANES: Firstly, there are -- in 8 respect to the witness' evidence, there are two (2) volumes 9 of documents. Volumes 1 and Volume 2 which would be Exhibit 10 12. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT 12 VOLUME 1: Bound document titled "Vince 13 Nigro- volume 1" tabs 1-100. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT 12 VOLUME 2: Bound document 16 titled "Vince 17 Nigro- volume 2" 18 tabs 101-207 19 20 MR. RONALD MANES: In addition to that, there 21 are four (4) volumes of Dash Domi expenses in 1999, 2000, and 22 2001, and I would like to mark those four (4) volumes at 23 Exhibit 13, Volumes 1, 2, 3 and 4. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT 13 VOLUME 1: Bound document

1 titled "Dash Domi 2 Expenses- volume 3 1" tabs 1 to 116 4 5 --- EXHIBIT 13 VOLUME 2: Bound document 6 titled " Dash 7 Domi 8 Expenses-volume 9 2" tabs 1 - 131 10 11 --- EXHIBIT 13 VOLUME 3: Bound document 12 titled "Dash Domi 13 Expenses- volume 14 3" tabs 1-85 15 16 --- EXHIBIT 13 VOLUME 4: Bound document 17 titled "Dash Domi 18 Expenses- volume 19 4" tabs 1-108 20 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES:

72
  1                 Q:   Mr. Nigro, let me take you, just to see
  2  if this will refresh your recollection as to the particular
  3  dates when Mr. Domi first approached you.  Let me take you to
  4  Volume number 1 -- 
  5                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:   Of whose?
  6                 MR. RONALD MANES:   Of Dash Domi's expenses,
  7  which would be Exhibit 13.
  8  
  9                       (BRIEF PAUSE)
 10  
 11  CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES:
 12                 Q:   Now, at the -- the front of that Volume
 13  1, Exhibit 13, is an expense summary, Dash Domi, do you see
 14  that?
 15                 MADAM COMMISSIONER:   It's even before the
 16  tab.  Are you on Dash Domi number 1?
 17  
 18                       (BRIEF PAUSE)
 19  
 20                 MR. RONALD MANES:   If I just might have a
 21  moment to clarify something with Mr. Moore.
 22  
 23                       (BRIEF PAUSE)
 24  
 25                 MR. RONALD MANES:   Just have a moment here.

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 4 Q: The expense summary, is that a -- this is 5 prepared by Commission Counsel, sir. Have you seen this 6 expense summary before? Have you been shown that by 7 Commission Counsel? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And is this a -- this is a summary that 10 you reviewed? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: The -- the first entry, number 1, first 13 two (2) entries, but the first entry, Mr. Moore and I agree 14 that that can't be January 27th, 1998, because Mr. Domi 15 wasn't there January -- 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: It doesn't say January, 17 it says July or June, the sixth -- the sixth month is June. 18 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, let's see whose 19 summary we have here, because the one (1) I have -- 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: I think when Mr. 21 Cavalluzzo was here, we -- I thought we'd all agreed it was 22 -- that we figured it was the twelfth month, so it was 23 December 27th, 1998, that was what we had told Mr. 24 Cavalluzzo. 25 MR. DAVID MOORE: Now, are we referring to

1 the summary or to the -- the expense sheet. The summary 2 has -- 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, the summary has 4 06/27/1998. And if you look at the first expense, as I 5 assume that's how we're working this out, I thought it said, 6 06/20 -- or sorry, 01 -- oh, I see what's happening here. 7 MR. DAVID MOORE: I have -- the summary I 8 have -- the first entry on the summary that I have, maybe I'm 9 operating from an earlier summary, I'm not sure. But the 10 first date entry is 01/27/98. I have on mine. 11 MR. RONALD MANES: That's the summary that I 12 have. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well the one (1) that is 14 in my book, in the Dash Domi -- the new Dash Domi book, says 15 06/27/98 and the City's as well. 16 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Mine too. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: What does your's say, Mr. 18 Nigro? Does your's say 06 or 01 on the very first one (1)? 19 Number one (1)? 20 THE WITNESS: 06. 21 MADAM COMMISSIONER: 06. 22 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Mine is up to date -- 23 mine is apparently up to date -- 24 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Ms. Rothstein, we're 25 having trouble with the microphone for you. We have to turn

1 them on and off now. 2 MS. LINDA ROTHSTEIN: Commissioner, sorry. 3 Mr. Smith has made a note on my expense summary that it is up 4 to date, as of the 15th of this month. 5 So, it may be that you and I, have either an 6 earlier or a later version. 7 MR. DAVID MOORE: Right, I expect what 8 happened is, and there have been some documents passed out 9 over the last couple of days, and it may well be that a 10 revised page one (1) of the summary to reflect the change 11 from 01 to 06, has been circulated. 12 And that neither Mr. Manes nor I, have put the 13 right page back in our book as a substitution. 14 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 15 MR. DAVID MOORE: I suspect that that's what 16 has happened. 17 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Oh, I see. 18 MR. DAVID MOORE: Hopefully that's -- I'm not 19 presenting evidence, but, hopefully -- 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: The ones that we've been 21 given now, are the new -- the new ones that were all put 22 together for the Dash Domi expenses, I guess, rather than 23 have to go back and forth, they've all been placed into one 24 (1) grouping, which would have been useful if we'd have that 25 right from the start.

1 Anyway, so where are we, Mr. Manes, with 2 respect to the first one (1)? What do you and Mr. Moore 3 think the date is? 4 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, I'm going to skip the 5 first date, because -- now I've got the revised, revised, 6 revised, revised, revised and number one (1) is 06/27/98. 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes, that's -- 8 MR. RONALD MANES: We know that that can't be 9 right, even though the receipt seems to -- can be read as 10 that, because Mr. Domi was not employed June 27th, 1998. 11 MADAM COMMISSIONER: With MFP. 12 MR. RONALD MANES: With MFP. 13 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right. 14 MR. RONALD MANES: So, we have no idea what 15 that entry means. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 18 Q: Number two (2) is December 19th, 1999. Do 19 you see that, Mr. Nigro? 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Number two (2)? 21 MR. RONALD MANES: Entry number two (2), 22 December -- December 19th, 1998. 23 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Right. 24 MR. RONALD MANES: All right. 25

1 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 2 Q: Now, if everybody is on the same page, 3 that's a meeting, according to this entry, a meeting at -- 4 something at the Maple Leaf Gardens Hot Stove Lounge for 5 drinks, V. Nigro and D. Robson, according to this entry. 6 Now, do you recall having drinks with Dave 7 Robson and Dash Domi at Maple Leaf Gardens, December 19th, 8 1998, in the Hot -- the Hot Stove Lounge? 9 A: I don't remember if it was the Hot Stove 10 Lounge, but, I do remember having -- with Dash and Dave 11 Robson, yes. 12 Q: All right. So, would this -- would this 13 assist you, in terms of your recollection, as to when you 14 first spoke with Mr. Domi, regarding his -- his new job at 15 MFP and that he was given the City account? 16 A: No, I don't know, the only thing I can 17 recall from that Dave Robson meeting was that Dash had told 18 me that Robson was -- had a lot to do with him getting the 19 job and he wanted me to meet him. 20 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Is his -- can I just ask 21 you, Mr. Nigro. The first time that you had breakfast, 22 lunch, dinner, drinks, whatever with Mr. Domi, after he was 23 at MFP, and while you were at the City, were you alone with 24 Mr. Domi or were you with Mr. Domi and someone else? 25 THE WITNESS: No, the first time it was just

1 myself and Dash. 2 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 5 Q: Would that have been, to the best of your 6 recollection, before you had this -- 7 A: Yes, yes -- 8 Q: -- drink with Robson? 9 A: -- yes. 10 Q: All right. That gives us some idea. From 11 what you're saying, Dash Domi told you that Mr. Robson had 12 recommended him for the job? 13 A: He told me that he had great -- he had a 14 lot to do with him getting the job. 15 Q: Now, he didn't know Mr. Robson at that 16 time? 17 A: No. 18 Q: But, did he tell you anything about his 19 discussions with Mr. Robson, that his circumstances -- 20 A: No, he just told me that he wanted me to 21 meet the top guy. 22 Q: But in terms of him getting the job at 23 MFP and Mr. Robson's recommendation, did he tell you how that 24 came about? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: All right. Could you relate that to us? 2 A: He had told me that his brother, Tie, had 3 introduced Dash to Dave Robson and Dave Robson had 4 recommended Dash for a job. 5 Q: Did -- do you recall whether Dash told 6 you about his interviewing at MFP and what they asked and 7 what he told them in order to get this job? 8 A: No, I can't recall that. 9 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether Mr. Domi 10 told you that MFP was aware of his relationship with the 11 Godfrey family, for example, prior to him getting the job 12 with MFP? 13 A: No. I -- I had no idea. 14 Q: All right. Did -- in your discussions 15 with Mr. Domi about him getting a job at MFP, did you ever 16 discuss whether he knew anything about Information 17 Technology, computers, leasing? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Well, didn't you ever say to him, Dash 20 what do you know about leasing technology? 21 A: I -- I think he was just so happy to have 22 a job at that point, the impression I got, and that's it, 23 really. 24 Q: I appreciate that but in his enthusiasm 25 for having gotten the job, did he ever -- didn't you ever

1 wonder how he got such a job when he -- and whether he knew 2 anything about leasing information technology? 3 A: No. The only comments that were probably 4 made was that -- that they had a lot of expertise as a 5 company. I mean, surrounding him. I mean that he was a 6 salesperson opening doors. 7 Q: Do you at least recall having some kind 8 of discussion with him in that regards? 9 A: Something along that nature, yeah. 10 Q: D -- do you recall -- when you say 11 surrounding him, do you recall a specific discussion where he 12 said that he -- he was going to have a lot of technical 13 expertise surrounding so he didn't have to know anything 14 about information technology. Anything like that? 15 A: I don't recall anything specific like 16 that. 17 Q: All right. Did he tell you how much he 18 was going to make a year? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Didn't you wonder? 21 A: Sure, I wondered. Yeah. 22 Q: You were friends at that point? 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: Why didn't you ask him how much did he -- 25 how much are they paying you?

1 A: I just never asked him how much he made. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Well, when he first approached you about 6 the fact that he'd been given the City account. Did he ask 7 you to help him? 8 A: He wanted to know how the system kind of 9 worked; wanted to know who was who. 10 MR. DAVID MOORE: In fairness, I don't know 11 the witness has said or anybody has said that he first 12 approached him -- that when he first approached him it was 13 about getting the City job or in connection with the City 14 work. 15 MADAM COMMISSIONER: L -- let's clarify that, 16 Mr. Manes. I think Mr. Nigro did say that he first started 17 seeing a lot more of -- of Mr. Domi after he started -- after 18 Mr. Domi got this job at MFP. 19 MR. RONALD MANES: I think that then the 20 witness -- 21 MR. DAVID MOORE: And my copy of his evidence 22 says to be on it, that he estimated that was sometime in 23 January but anyway. I just like to be accurate with the 24 premises built under the questions put to the witness. 25 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Well, I -- I think in

1 fairness, Mr. Moore, he did say he thought it was sometime in 2 January but then was presented with the expense account which 3 say it was -- that they'd had this drink in December. 4 MR. RONALD MANES: And the witness went on to 5 say that it was sometime prior to that drink. 6 And I -- I believe the witness said -- 7 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Why don't we just ask 8 him -- 9 MR. RONALD MANES: All right. 10 MADAM COMMISSIONER: -- ask him your next 11 question. 12 MR. RONALD MANES: Well, I was -- I was going 13 to. I -- let me go back and then confirm what the witness 14 has already told us. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 17 Q: Do you recall giving us evidence before 18 the break, that when Mr. Domi first approached you, he 19 advised you that he had been given the City account? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: Did he, when he first approached you and 22 was -- and advised you that he had been given the City 23 account, did he ask you for help with the City account? 24 A: No. 25 Q: What did he ask you, if anything?

1 A: Well, as I said, he was very green and 2 had no idea of how the process or -- 3 Q: Process -- 4 A: -- well, Government worked, generally. 5 He wanted to know who was who and how things worked. 6 Q: All right. Who was who -- 7 A: And how things worked, how the process 8 worked, the system, Council, committees. 9 Q: Yes, well, that's what I'm asking you. 10 How things worked, Council, et cetera, at the City? 11 A: Right. 12 Q: So in answer to my question, did he ask 13 you for a -- and when he first approached you for help, am 14 I -- 15 A: Guidance, he asked me for guidance more I 16 think. 17 Q: All right, and that is in -- that would 18 be in relation to how the City operated, who was who, et 19 cetera? 20 A: Correct. 21 Q: All right. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And did you give Mr. Domi advice in that

1 regard, on occasion? 2 A: Yeah, yes, I did. 3 Q: All right. Can you tell us, generally, 4 what advice did you give Mr. Domi about how the City was 5 operated, and who was who? 6 Let's take the first part, what advice did you 7 give Mr. Domi as to how the City -- 8 A: Well the general comments, to the best of 9 my recollection, was that it was a -- a -- it was a new 10 system, a new set up for the Megacity and there were a lot 11 more people, and it was a very, in many ways, you know, 12 complicated process. 13 Q: You told him who the key decision makers 14 were, didn't you? 15 A: Yeah, we talked about different people. 16 Q: All right. But let's -- let's start, and 17 we'll make a list of the people that -- that you talked about 18 and then ask you what you talked to him about them. 19 Who did you say were the -- to Mr. Domi, were 20 the key decision makers at the City? 21 A: I don't know if I ever told him who the 22 key decision makers were, I -- the best advice I gave him was 23 to get a sense of exactly where he wanted to go, and then 24 once you know the area you want to go after or work on, you 25 know, then you would work with the appropriate people, or get

1 to know the appropriate people. 2 Q: Who did you consider at that time you 3 worked as the Mayor's staff assistant, to be key decision 4 makers -- 5 A: I -- 6 Q: -- at the City of Toronto? 7 A: -- Wanda, Tom, and some of the other 8 politicians, you know. 9 Q: Who? 10 A: And think he got to know Lorenzo 11 Berardinetti and Betty Disero and different people. 12 Q: We're just trying to get -- get an idea 13 of who and then what the discussions were, so we can put 14 ourselves with you back then and get an appreciation of how 15 you informed Mr. Domi. 16 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Who is Tom? Mr. Nigro 17 you said -- 18 THE WITNESS: Jakobek. 19 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Okay. Thanks. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 22 Q: So, you told us about Wanda Liczyk, Tom 23 Jakobek, Berardinetti, Disero, any other politicians, that 24 you spoke with him about that you thought were important? 25 A: Not that come to mind, right now.

1 MR. DAVID MOORE: Did My Friend say 2 Berardinetti? 3 MADAM COMMISSIONER: Yes. That's what the 4 witness said. 5 MR. DAVID MOORE: Oh, Lorenzo, okay. I'm 6 sorry. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. RONALD MANES: 9 Q: Now, can you tell us, why you thought at 10 that time that Wanda Liczyk was a key decision maker at the 11 City, as it related to Mr. Domi's job at MFP? 12 A: She was the CFO and she had a good 13 knowledge of the overall government. 14 Q: Well, everybody would know that Ms. Liczyk 15 was the CFO and would have an overall knowledge of the 16 government, but did you give Mr. Domi, as his friend, any 17 information or advice that was not generally available to the 18 public? 19 A: No. 20 Q: So, your evidence is that all you told Mr. 21 Domi about Wanda Liczyk was that she was the CFO and that she 22 had broad knowledge of the government? 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: That's it? 25 A: Yeah and you should get to know these

1 people. 2 Q: What assistance did you think that Ms. 3 Liczyk could be to Mr. Domi that you recommended that he get 4 to know her? 5 A: Nothing specific. Just she was someone 6 who had, as you said, access to -- you know, she seemed to be 7 in control, and you know, she was someone he should get to 8 know. 9 Q: Well, let me help you with this. Did you 10 tell him about how tight she was with the Mayor? 11 A: I may have said that they were -- had a 12 good relationship. 13 Q: That they were? 14 A: They had a good relationship. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Now, what did you tell Mr. Domi about 19 Councillor Jakobek? 20 A: That he was the budget chief and that he 21 was also another person he should get to know. 22 Q: Did you tell Mr. Domi anything other than 23 the fact that Mr. Jakobek was the budget chief and that he 24 was a person that Mr. Domi ought to get to know? 25 A: The only thing I told him was that he was

1 a tough person to work with, but you know, then I gave him a 2 bit of heads up that he's -- he's a tough guy to work with. 3 Q: How did you know he's a tough guy to work 4 with? 5 A: Well, that's his reputation. 6 Q: But, you certainly told Mr. Domi that you 7 had a cordial relationship with Mr. Jakobek? 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: Is that right? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And Mr. Domi -- you would have told Mr. 12 Domi that you had assisted Mr. Jakobek in a few Councillors 13 elections? 14 A: That I assisted Councillor Jakobek on a 15 few -- 16 Q: Yes? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: I say you would have told Mr. Domi that? 19 A: No, I never -- I don't think I ever did 20 tell him that. 21 Q: Are you saying you remember that you 22 didn't or do you remember? 23 A: I don't specifically remember telling him 24 that, no. 25 Q: All right. Well, when you told Mr. Domi

1 that you had a cordial relationship with Mr. Jakobek, did you 2 use the word cordial? That -- that was my word that I 3 introduced to you. 4 A: Probably some word in that nature. 5 Working relationship. 6 Q: And why would that be relevant to Mr. 7 Domi and his discussions with you, that you had a working 8 relationship or a cordial relationship with Mr. Jakobek? 9 A: He just wanted to know who -- who was who 10 and who I knew, and that's probably just some feedback I gave 11 him. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now, you knew what Mr. Domi's job was at 16 MFP didn't you? 17 A: All I knew was he was in sales. 18 Q: Sales. Leasing? 19 A: All I knew was he was in sales. 20 Q: He talked to you about IT didn't he? 21 A: Not really. 22 Q: He didn't talk to you about -- 23 A: Very rarely. 24 Q: -- the Information and Technology 25 Department?

1 A: No. 2 Q: Didn't talk to you about Jim Andrew? 3 A: No, only because I had no idea or any 4 clue of any IT at the time, well, I still have no idea of IT. 5 Q: Well, at the time did you know who Jim 6 Andrew was? 7 A: No, I did not. 8 Q: And -- and is it your evidence here, that 9 at no time did Mr. Domi talk to you about Jim Andrew? 10 A: No. 11 Q: No, that's not your evidence, or no, he 12 didn't talk to you? 13 A: He never spoke to me about Jim Andrews 14 (sic). 15 Q: Right. Well, let me ask you this. Did 16 Mr. Domi ever speak with you about Lana Viinamae, Kathy 17 Bulko, and Paula Leggieri? 18 A: Well, he would bring up their names. 19 Q: All right, and would he tell you, or did 20 you already know what Department they were in? 21 A: I had no idea of where they worked until 22 he brought it up to me. 23 Q: And when he brought it up to you, did he 24 tell you that they worked in Information and Technology? 25 A: Yes.