1 2 3 4 MACKENZIE VALLEY ENVIRONMENTAL 5 IMPACT REVIEW BOARD 6 7 8 9 HELD BEFORE: 10 Board Chairperson Gordon Wray 11 Board Member Danny Bayha 12 Board Member Frank Pope 13 Board Member John Stevenson 14 Board Member Charlie Snowshoe 15 16 17 18 HELD AT: 19 Northern United Place 20 Yellowknife, NT 21 22 23 May 2nd, 2003 24 Volume 5 25

1 APPEARANCES 2 John Donihee ) Board Counsel 3 4 Robin Johnstone ) De Beers Canada Mining 5 John McConnell ) Ltd. 6 Eric Groody ) 7 8 Yvonne MacNeil ) Department of Justice 9 (GNWT) 10 11 Chief Archie Catholique ) Lutsel K'e Dene First 12 Florence Catholique ) Nation 13 14 Kris Johnson ) North Slave Metis 15 Robert Turner ) Alliance 16 17 David Livingstone ) Indian and Northern 18 Sevn Bohnet ) Affairs Canada (INAC) 19 20 Gavin More ) Government of Northwest 21 Doug Doan ) Territories (GNWT) 22 23 John Ramsey ) Natural Resources 24 Canada 25

1 APPEARANCES (Cont'd) 2 3 Julie Dahl ) Fisheries and Oceans 4 Canada 5 6 Mark Dahl ) Environmental Canada 7 8 Rachel Crapeau ) Yellowknives Dene First 9 Tim Byers ) Nation 10 11 Jean Teillet ) Dogrib Treaty 11 12 Council 13 14 Kevin O'Reilly ) Canadian Arctic 15 Resources Committee 16 17 Mike Vaydik ) NWT and Nunavut Chamber 18 of Mines 19 20 Jason Lepine ) Northwest Territory 21 Metis Nation 22 23 24 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page No. 3 Exhibit List 5 4 5 Social/Cultural/Economic 6 1) De Beers Canada Mining Inc. 10 7 Questions 50 8 2) Yellowknives Dene First Nation 81 9 Questions 94 10 3) NWT & Nunavut Chamber of Mines 100 11 4) North Slave Metis Nation 119 12 Questions 133 13 5) Dogrib Treaty 11 Council 135 14 6) Government of the NWT 145 15 Questions 161 16 7) Lutsel K'e Dene First Nation 190 17 Questions 206 18 8) Superintendent of Catholic Schools 207 19 9) Yellowknife Metis Nation Local 66 218 20 10) NWT Construction Association 21 Closing Statements 22 1) Yellowknives Dene First Nation 233 23 2) Lutsel K'e Dene First Nation 245 24 3) North Slave Metis Alliance 250 25 4) Fisheries & Oceans Canada 257

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS (cont'd) 2 Page No. 3 Closing Statements 4 5) Dogrib Treaty 11 Council 260 5 6) Canadian Arctic Resources Committee 273 6 7) Indian and Northern Affairs Canada 286 7 8) Government of the NWT 292 8 9) De Beers Canada Mining Inc. 298 9 10 11 Certificate of Reporter 311 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBIT LIST 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION 3 1 Opening Statement on the De Beers Snap Lake 4 Project to the Mackenzie Valley Environmental 5 Impact Review Board by The Canadian Arctic 6 Resources Committee 7 2 Environmental Agreement, BHP Billiton ETAKI 8 Diamond Project. Effective January 6, 1997, 9 Addendum April 14, 2003 10 3 Environmental Agreement, Diavik Diamond 11 Project. Effective March 8, 2000 12 4 Air, Waste and Abandonment & Reclamation 13 Statement by De Beers Canada Mining Inc. 14 5 TDS versus Depth in Snap Lake 15 6 Boreholes drilled during the Advanced 16 Exploration Program 17 7 Revised (minor edits) PowerPoint Presentations 18 - NSMA Public Hearing Presentations for the 19 De Beers Snap Lake Diamond Project: 20 - Air, Waste and Abandonment & Reclamation 21 Issues 22 - Hydrogeology Issues 23 - Surface Water Quality and Aquatic 24 Resources Issues 25 - Wildlife Issues

1 EXHIBIT LIST (cont'd) 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION 3 8 Denesoline Recommendations on Na Yaghe Kue 4 (Snap Lake) by Lutsel K'e Dene First Nation - 5 PowerPoint presentation 6 9 Denesoline Perspectives and Issues About the 7 Proposed De Beers Canada Diamond Mine at Na 8 Yaghe Kue by Lutsel K'e Dene First Nation - 9 Revised written presentation 10 10 Intervention on the Snap Lake Project 11 Environmental Assessment by Environment Canada 12 - PowerPoint presentation 13 11 Snap Lake Water Quality: Sources, Effects and 14 Impacts by INAC - PowerPoint Presentation 15 12 Government of Northwest Territories: Wildlife 16 presentation Caribou, grizzly bears and 17 wolverine by RWED - PowerPoint Presentation 18 13 Question Presented at the De Beers Technical 19 Sessions in regards to the use of Royalties 20 by the Government of the Northwest 21 Territories. Letter to Kevin O'Reilly, CARC 22 from Gavin MOre, GNWT, April 28, 2003 letter. 23 14 Destratification in Snap Lake - Response to 24 INAC's presentation titled "Surface Water 25 Hydrology Issues: Snap Lake Project."

1 EXHIBIT LIST (cont'd) 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION 3 Letter to MVEIRB from De Beers, April 29, 4 2003. 5 15 Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) 6 Public Hearing Presentation on the Proposed 7 Snap Lake Diamond Project - Revised PowerPoint 8 presentation. 9 16 De Beers' Snap Lake Project Public Hearings: 10 Issue Presentation, GNWT Department of Health 11 and Social Services - PowerPoint Presentation. 12 17 A Time of Rapid & Fundamental Change: 13 Business Driving the NWT Economy Today & 14 Tomorrow, Investment and Economic Analysis, 15 RWED - PowerPoint Presentation. 16 18 Response to Lutsel K'e's Questions submitted 17 to the MVEIRB for the Snap lake Diamond 18 Project Public Hearing. Technical Memorandum 19 submitted to Lutsel K'e Dene First Nation by 20 De Beers, May 1, 2003. 21 19 Response to YKDFN's Questions submitted to the 22 MVEIRB for the Snap Lake Diamond Project 23 Public Hearing. Technical Memorandum 24 submitted to Yellowknives Dene First Nation by 25 De Beers, May 1, 2003.

1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION 3 20 Plain Language Summary of: Participation 4 Agreement between Diavik Diamond Mines Inc. 5 and Dogrib Treaty 11 Council, April 6, 2000 6 21 Outstanding Environment Canada Issues - March 7 13, 2003. Memo to Robin Johnstone, De Beers 8 from Tom Higgs, AMEC, April 16, 2003 9 22 Snap Lake Diamond Project Mine Water 10 Assessment - Diffusion. Technical Memorandum 11 to Robin Johnstone, De Beers from Ken DeVos 12 and Don Chorley, Golder Associates, April 16, 13 2003. 14 23 Clarification of Issues Discussed During April 15 14th and 17th conference calls. Letter to 16 Dave Balint, DFO from Robin Johnstone, De 17 Beers, April 23, 2003 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Today we'll 4 continue on with the Social, Cultural and Economic phase of 5 the Hearing. 6 As most of you are aware, we are running about 7 a half day behind schedule, so I would ask all presenters and 8 questioners to keep that in mind. We do not have the room 9 after 5:30 tonight, it's been booked for another function. 10 So we need to bear down today, if we intend to finish. 11 And I would also remind those who are in the 12 front of the agenda, that there are people to make 13 presentations at the end. And it's a long day, and if -- if 14 people bog us down in lots of questions, then the people who 15 are making the presentations at the end of the day are 16 disadvantaged. So I would ask you to keep your -- your 17 colleagues in mind. 18 I have one (1) document to file on the record. 19 It's a technical memorandum dated the 1st of May, 2003. And 20 it's submitted to the Yellowknives Dene First Nation from De 21 Beers Canada in response to some of the questions raised at 22 the Hearing. 23 I'd also now call on De Beers Canada to make 24 their presentation. Mr. McConnell...? 25 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

11
  1  We have two (2) presentations this morning related to socio-
  2  economic impacts.  
  3                 Our first presenter will be Dr. Andy
  4  Swiderski.  Andy is the Managing Principal of Terriplan
  5  Consultants, based here in Yellowknife.  He brings over
  6  twenty-five (25) years of inter-disciplinary research,
  7  planning and management in both the private and public
  8  sectors across Canada.
  9                 Andy has project experience in areas of
 10  strategic planning, development, planning and economics and
 11  impact assessment and modelling in both the public and
 12  private sectors.  Andy is a member of the Canadian Institute
 13  of Planners in Alberta, NWT and Ontario.  Andy was the
 14  Project Team Leader for the Economic Impact Assessment
 15  component of Snap Lake.  
 16                 Our second speaker this morning will be Dr.
 17  Peter Homenuck.  He's the founding partner of IER.  He has
 18  more than thirty (30) years' experience in the design and
 19  implementation social impact assessment programs and public
 20  consultation programs for a wide range of environmental
 21  projects.  His clients include public agencies, private
 22  corporations, communities in First Nations.  
 23                 Peter is often retained in a peer review
 24  capacity.  In addition, he has written social impact
 25  guidelines for a number of government agencies.  Until 2001,

1 Dr. Homenuck was a Professor of Environmental Studies at York 2 University where he taught social impact assessment and First 3 Nations relations. 4 He's also taught environmental assessment at 5 the Centre for Indigenous Environmental Resources in 6 Winnipeg, and he was retained by DIAND to review the social 7 impact analysis for the Diavik Project. 8 We'll start with Andy this morning, and then 9 move on to Dr. Homenuck. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. If you'd just 11 give us a minute? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MR. ANDY SWIDERSKI: Good morning, Mr. 16 Chairman, Members of the Review Board, respected Elders and 17 other contributors to this Hearing. 18 This presentation will cover the following 19 areas: We will place the NWT economy in perspective and 20 illustrate how the Snap Lake Project has and will contribute 21 to the economy of communities and the NWT economy overall. 22 We will present some highlights and findings 23 from our Regional Labour Market Analysis that was undertaken 24 as part of our modelling work. We will summarize, briefly, 25 the modelling approach, highlight a few of the key

1 assumptions, and also reflect on the projections that are 2 contained there. Importantly, we will present key economic 3 tacts and fiscal impacts. 4 The NWT economic priorities and direction have 5 emerged from and are outlined in a number of key strategic 6 documents. They include legislative assemblies' vision of 7 towards a better tomorrow, common ground, the Premier's 8 economic strategy panel, and the last several annual budget 9 addresses by the Minister of Finance. 10 The GNWT's economic framework reflects, in 11 part, the values and priorities of communities as well as the 12 Territory overall, and strives for a balanced, diversified 13 and vibrant economy. The framework provides guidance through 14 key principles, factors and considerations, but what does 15 this economic direction mean for communities and developers? 16 Fundamentally, it helps us to recognize and 17 work with the Territories' environmental, cultural and 18 economic future, something that a number of the Elders spoke 19 to during yesterday's evening session, for those of you who 20 were here, and has been expressed eloquently by GNWT during 21 this week. 22 This economic direction tells us that non- 23 renewable resource development, especially diamond mining, 24 oil and gas, is critical to the development of the NWT 25 economy. Resource development needs to strike a balance

1 between economic benefits, social impacts and, importantly, 2 environmental protection. 3 It also makes a fundamental point about the 4 importance and potential of their renewable resources sector 5 and it needs to be recognised and respected. Particularly, 6 the essential role of the traditional economy and the 7 cultural and economic lives of communities and aboriginal 8 people. 9 Diamond mining plays, and will continue to 10 play for the foreseeable future, a key role in creating new 11 and long-term business and employment development 12 opportunities. Through our respectful, long-term commitment 13 to a partnership with communities and governments, De Beers 14 will contribute through the creation of opportunities and 15 choices at the individual, family and community level, to the 16 creation of wealth through employment, investment and 17 business opportunities. 18 And critically, a wider distribution and 19 sharing of those opportunities and wealth across all 20 communities by industry and by government; a key message 21 clearly heard from communities and Elders. 22 De Beers has already invested some 23 $100 million into the Snap Lake Project to bring it to this 24 point. De Beers is not merely investing to continue the 25 momentum in the economy, De Beers is investing in people,

1 both through its own efforts and by building on the work of 2 communities and many government agencies. 3 Mr. Chairman, from an economic impact 4 assessment perspective, there are over one hundred (100) 5 individual indicators that we could put forward. From a 6 practical perspective, there are bundles of indicators that 7 are published through government and public sources and are, 8 importantly, generally agreed upon. 9 Taken together, these indicators assist in 10 addressing key economic impact questions. One (1), what are 11 the economic benefits? And, two (2), from an economic 12 perspective, are individuals, families, communities and 13 governments better off? 14 In view of the volumes of information that has 15 been submitted, with respect to the Board, we have put 16 together, in summary format, to -- to begin our presentation 17 the key indicators which we feel we would like to offer for 18 the Board's consideration. 19 GDP, that is the Gross Domestic Product, is a 20 measure of total economic activities. The trend is one (1) 21 of growing. Investment continues to grow. Retail trade is 22 growing. Employment is growing. Importantly, unemployment 23 is decreasing, social assistance is decreasing and, 24 fundamentally, inflation continues to be low and stable. 25 In the most straightforward terms, the NWT

1 economy is robust and growing. Over the last few, the NWT 2 economy has been among the strongest in Canada. This 3 impressive growth is even more remarkable in light of 4 continuing low inflation rates. 5 The Snap Lake Diamond Project will contribute 6 to maintaining the momentum in the economy of individual 7 communities and the Territory overall. To assist the Board 8 and participants to more fully understand how events can 9 influence the economy, the following figures identify the 10 timing of construction and operation phases of two (2) 11 existing mines along the bottom of the graph that you will 12 see momentarily. 13 The next series of slides are primarily 14 intended to illustrate important patterns and trends rather 15 than detailed statistical discussion. All the statistical 16 data and economic data are either on the public record or 17 available through government publications. 18 The gross domestic product for the NWT, which 19 is the total value of economic activity and is generally 20 accepted as the most meaningful measure of the economy, the 21 economy grew from some 1.9 billion in 1998 to approximately 22 3 billion in 2001. The preliminary estimate for the gross 23 domestic product for the year past, is 2002, is roughly 24 3.1 billion. 25 In 2000, the NWT economy grew by almost

1 10 percent. The following year by almost 19 percent. The 2 increased rate of growth is about three point three (3.3) for 3 the year just finishing as the major construction activity of 4 existing operations come to a close. 5 The largest industry in the NWT is mining, 6 oil, and gas extraction, representing nearly one-quarter 7 (1/4) of the total economic activity. The diamond sector 8 alone accounts for nearly 20 percent. 9 Before proceeding with the next few slides, 10 there is one (1) idea that -- that I would like to share 11 about economic cycles and momentum, and how things are 12 linked. 13 In some ways, the economies of individual 14 communities and a territory behave like the natural world of 15 animals. There are relationship cycles and dependencies, 16 just like the dependence of lynx on the hare, the abundance 17 or scarcity of hare determines the well-being of lynx. 18 The cycles move together and natural 19 relationships of dependence. Similarly, economic growth or 20 decline in one (1) sector or area influences the well-being 21 in other sectors and areas. 22 There are cycles of growth, when investment is 23 made. More people work, they have increased choices, they 24 invest and they spend, which contributes to continued 25 economic activity. This momentum is self-generating.

1 Conversely, there are cycles of decline. When 2 investment declines, less people work, they have fewer 3 choices to meet their needs and aspirations, they spend and 4 invest less, which takes away confidence and momentum from 5 the economy. 6 The next slide, which is the private capital 7 expenditures, as you -- as you can clearly see. Capital 8 investment is an important trigger to the economy. It's 9 important from two (2) critical views; it adds directly to 10 the economy, and it starts momentum in confidence in other 11 individuals, sectors of the economy and businesses. 12 Private capital expenditure is largely through 13 industrial development the last few years show this increased 14 level of investment and confidence in the economy. 15 The next slides will show this momentum with 16 relationship and dependencies in the economy. Retail trade 17 simply shows a corresponding growth with -- in its simple 18 terms, when people have disposable income, they spend and 19 invest which creates additional opportunities for others, 20 local businesses in particular. 21 Manufacturing shipments have changed over 22 time, increasing in the mid-nineties, with a slow down in the 23 some of the industrial activity, and since 1999, continue to 24 grow. 25 The value of diamond shipments starting

1 effectively in 1998, continue to increase. This figure will 2 increase further once Diavik goes into full production, and 3 will increase once again should the Snap Lake Project be 4 approved. 5 Another important indicator is the industrial 6 employment continues to show strong growth during this 7 period. There are important relationships within and across 8 the economy. When investment increases, there is more 9 employment, spending, and higher income. 10 Employment in the goods-producing NWT has 11 shown steady growth during the period. Employment and 12 service-producing industries shows moderate growth and 13 stability during the period as well. 14 Of particular importance, the Board is looking 15 at what has happened with respect to personal income. What 16 has been the effect? What will be the effect? 17 For the Board's consideration, we have 18 presented the following slides, both from two (2) 19 perspectives. One (1) in the primary communities as 20 represented in the project submission as a group, and also 21 the smaller communities with Yellowknife excluded. 22 I will start -- first start with personal 23 income in a primary community -- communities. Overall, 24 personal income shows steady growth in all of the primary 25 communities. More people are working, average incomes from

1 taxation data show an important trend. 2 Personal incomes continue to increase since 3 1995/'96 in real terms. As you can see for yourself, the -- 4 the growth has been substantial but within -- within 5 manageable scope. 6 Between '96 and the year 2000, there's been an 7 increase in average income of some 6 percent. 8 But what is equally important is what is 9 happening in the smaller communities. During that same 10 period, personal incomes show a steady growth in the smaller 11 communities. Families are increasing their economic 12 independence. 13 To illustrate, the income in 1996, just over 14 the 18,000 mark, has grown to just under 20,000 in 1999, and 15 just under 23,000 in 2001. What that means in -- in 16 practical terms, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Board, is that 17 while there -- there are clearly income gaps between the 18 larger and smaller communities, the gap has closed during 19 that period. The average increase during that period, in 20 smaller communities, has been over 21 percent. 21 Corresponding relationship, as I talked about, 22 the hare and the lynx, income support payments continue to 23 show a steady decline. There's been a reduction from the 24 high of almost $6.7 million in 1995, to about 4.3 in 2002. 25 That's roughly a 40 percent decline. While it's a net

1 savings to government, the most important benefit is of 2 increasing self reliance and people's confidence. 3 Looking at the same figure for the primary 4 communities, smaller communities, excluding Yellowknife, 5 income support payments continue to show the same pattern, 6 reduced income support payments enable limited public 7 resources to be targeted to areas of investment and need in 8 communities. 9 Corresponding relationship, as you would 10 expect, is there is a -- a supporting decline in a number of 11 cases of income support payments, both in all the primary 12 communities and in the smaller communities. 13 The relationship cycle of income support 14 payment cases is one of simply more people working, there is 15 less reliance on income support, which shows up in fewer 16 cases, decreased income support payments and fewer total 17 people dependent on government funding. 18 The number of beneficiaries, that is, the 19 number of families with dependents, shows a corresponding 20 decline during that same period. The number of beneficiaries 21 continues to decline during that period from a high of almost 22 18,050 in 1995 to just over nine hundred and seventy (970) in 23 2002. This is -- this is almost a 50 percent decrease during 24 that period. 25 The corresponding change in income support

1 beneficiaries in the smaller communities follows a similar 2 pattern, it's been a reduction of nearly half. 3 Mr. Chairman, I will now move to the next 4 component of our presentation which is looking at the 5 regional labour market of very important questions. 6 De Beers completed a regional labour market 7 cumulative impact analysis to support the modelling and 8 projection work. The analysis fundamentally addressed 9 whether there was sufficient regional labour supply to meet 10 the projected annual labour requirements, both from the 11 proposed Snap Lake Project, as well as the demand from EKATI 12 and Diavik. 13 The regional labour market analysis 14 information is based on the most current and valid data 15 available, and includes not only those persons who are 16 identified officially or defined as unemployed, but those who 17 expressed a willingness to work, particularly vocational 18 work. 19 The analysis has excluded the anticipated 20 additional contribution to the skilled labour market through 21 the comprehensive human resource development strategy, 22 including literacy and apprentice initiatives that De Beers, 23 in partnership with communities, government and learning 24 institutions, is putting in place. 25 The conclusion, Mr. Chairman, of the regional

1 labour market analysis is that the labour supply is 2 sufficient to meet the cumulative labour demand for direct 3 mine jobs. It is also sufficient to meet the cumulative 4 total labour demand of the three (3) mines, particularly for 5 the period ending in 2011. 6 I will now move to the economic and tax 7 models. To ensure the greatest degree of confidence in the 8 economic models that have been put forward, the decision was 9 made early to work with proven models that are used and 10 recognised by government. 11 To that effect, the input, output models from 12 the Bureau of Statistics and Statistics Canada formed the 13 cornerstone of the analysis. As well as the Department of 14 Finance own tax and fiscal impact models. Essentially, we 15 wanted to work with the best tools that were available and 16 bring forward the key project information and assumptions. 17 The economic and tax impact models, the 18 details were submitted on the public record, initially with 19 the original submission as well as subsequent information 20 rounds and technical sessions. The impacts were reviewed and 21 assessed by project phase. 22 They looked at the impact on employment, gross 23 domestic product and labour income. They looked at the 24 impact on Canada and the NWT as well as the tax and fiscal 25 impacts on the Government of Canada and the Government of

1 NWT. 2 Before I present those key findings, 3 Mr. Chairman, I will just spend a moment on model assumptions 4 and key projections. Local labour, by project phase, was 5 built on the assumption that construction would comprise 6 40 percent, the operation and closure would be at 60 percent. 7 Resident workers, those who would -- are 8 either currently resident of the NWT or who would move to 9 take employment and reside in to the NWT, were estimated to 10 form about 50 percent of that local labour estimate. 11 I will now move to some key observations with 12 respect to the economic impacts on Canada which include the 13 NWT. Mr. Chairman, this slide summarises the Canada impacts 14 which includes the NWT, although I will present it separately 15 in subsequent slides. The impacts are for total impacts 16 which include direct, indirect and induced. 17 As -- as is evident on the chart, the total 18 estimated number of -- of jobs during the construction period 19 is roughly thirty-one hundred (3100). I will round these off 20 simply because I think you've had more than your fill of 21 numbers this week. 22 Gross domestic product will be roughly 23 261 million during the construction and labour income will be 24 roughly 188 million. Importantly, on the annual -- that is 25 the yearly impact, for Canada, roughly sixteen hundred and

1 fifty (1650) jobs, about 140 million in gross domestic 2 product and some 107 million in labour income. 3 To conclude the mine closure phase is about 4 three hundred and sixty (360) jobs, roughly twenty-nine 5 thousand (29,000) -- 29.6 million in gross domestic product 6 and about 23 million in labour income. 7 The economic impact on the NWT during 8 construction roughly eleven hundred (1100) jobs, gross 9 domestic product approximately 127 million, and labour income 10 of 101 million. Again, these are just for the direct, 11 indirect and induced. 12 Construction annually for that, about nine 13 hundred and fifty (950) jobs, some 90 million in gross 14 domestic product, and about 76 million in labour income. 15 During the mine closure phase about a hundred 16 and seventy-five (175) jobs, about 19 million in gross 17 domestic product, and some 16 million in labour income. 18 The economic impacts on operations which is 19 perhaps the most critical area because of its sustained 20 length, during the operations phase on the NWT, it will 21 realise benefits in the employment of about seven hundred and 22 thirty (730) jobs, which represent about two-thirds of all 23 the jobs. 24 Gross domestic product is about 68 million, 25 representing above 72 percent of all -- all the benefits

1 during the operations. 2 Similarly, labour income is about 63 million, 3 representing some 78 percent of the total impacts. 4 The economic impacts on Canada, for a 5 cumulative perspective, again I'm highlighting the operations 6 phase alone, on direct, and indirect, this -- this excludes 7 the induced, is about 15,300 jobs, which represent about 67 8 percent. 9 Gross domestic product is about 1.4 billion 10 and labour income is about 1.3 billion. 11 Moving to the last series of slides. If you 12 look at tax and fiscal impacts first for Canada. During the 13 construction phase, net revenues are approximately 40 million 14 annually. There's approximately 26 million, and during 15 closure, is about 5 million. 16 The tax and fiscal impacts on the GNWT are 17 approximately 1.2 million during -- that is net revenues, 18 during the construction, approximately 1.1 million annually 19 during the twenty-two (22) years of operations and .14 20 million during the closure phase. 21 The total cumulative tax and fiscal impact on 22 Canada, in terms of corporate income tax, is approximately 23 156 million. The Federal surtax of 3.5 million. Other 24 taxes, which include personal income tax, fuel tax, GST, 25 property tax, things of that nature, account for another 493

1 million. 2 There is a corresponding saving on the -- 3 savings on the NWT grant of 138 million, and mineral 4 royalties of roughly 80 million for net revenues to Canada of 5 872 million over the life of the project. 6 To conclude, the total cumulative in tax 7 fiscal impact on the NWT during that same period. Corporate 8 income tax is approximately 43.8 million. Other taxes again, 9 in terms of personal taxes, fuel taxes, tobacco taxes, is 10 about 128 million. 11 There is a corresponding grant reduction of 12 138 million under the funding formula with Canada for net 13 revenues of about 34.6 million. 14 Then if you add the per capita grant estimate 15 of about 84.5 million, the cumulative tax and fiscal impacts 16 on the -- the GNWT is roughly 119 million. 17 In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, and members of 18 the Board, I'll conclude this presentation by returning to 19 the two (2) fundamental questions from an economic 20 perspective assessment that we started with. 21 One (1), what are the economic benefits? We 22 submit that the evidence indicates that there are substantial 23 economic benefits through employment, business opportunities, 24 tax and fiscal payments, and these benefits will last some 25 twenty-five (25) years.

1 From an economic view, are individuals, 2 families and communities, and governments better off? We 3 submit that based on the evidence presented that individuals, 4 families, communities, and governments will be better off 5 through the direct, and indirect and induced contributions, 6 and benefits for the Snap Lake Project. 7 Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the 8 Board, and in particular, a note of appreciation for the fine 9 work of the interpreters in communicating some of this 10 complex language. Thank you. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Swiderski. 12 Mr. Homenuck...? 13 MR. PETER HOMENUCK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, 14 Board members. I appreciate the opportunity to talk with you 15 about the socio-economic impact assessment. 16 The first slide identifies three (3) questions 17 that we asked ourselves, and these -- answering these 18 questions is the basis for the socio-economic impact 19 assessment. 20 We seek to understand how a project is 21 expected to impact individuals, families and communities in 22 terms of their social, economic, and cultural well-being. 23 And in addition, we look at the impact on the 24 NWT and Canada as a whole from the economic perspective, as 25 Andy has just concluded.

1 This slide identifies what we consider to be 2 the four (4) key issues to address in this session. And 3 we'll focus on -- on these four (4). 4 I will note that there were a number of issues 5 noted in the Board listing of issues, and many of them dealt 6 with data availability -- availability and clarification of 7 methodology. Our presentation, however, will focus on these 8 four (4) outstanding issues. 9 This slide identifies the steps that we took 10 to understand the social and economic current conditions in 11 communities, and how people felt about, or feel about, 12 similar projects. 13 The methodology that we followed focused 14 heavily on local understanding and experiences. The Socio- 15 economic Impact Assessment is, to a large extent, based on 16 the information collected through community interviews and 17 meetings. 18 This was accomplished by multiple visits, many 19 of them of two (2) to five (5) days' duration in the primary 20 communities. 21 Most communities were visited three (3) to 22 four (4) times during the eighteen (18) month period of the 23 social impact work being undertaken. 24 Prior to community visits, our staff would 25 review existing reports and information. And our fist visits

1 were to -- to have interviews and meetings with a cross- 2 section of community representatives, community members, to 3 have a good understanding of the profiles of the communities, 4 and to identify issues and concerns that people had with the 5 Snap Lake project. 6 Second, through these visits and interviews, 7 we gathered information on people's experiences of the 8 impacts with BHP and Diavik, as people have now had a few 9 years experience with those two (2) projects. 10 At the same time, we gathered information on 11 other similar projects, Cogema and Cominco in Saskatchewan, 12 being two (2) where we also had visits and discussions with 13 people and communities. 14 And third, relying on our professional 15 experience from a number of socio-economic impact 16 assessments, we also developed two (2) possible scenarios: a 17 best case, and a worst case. 18 To understand the situation in the NWT is a 19 fundamental requirement of impact assessment. Since 1990, 20 there have been a lot of significant changes occurring in the 21 territory. 22 Land claim settlement, new regulatory 23 processes, growth in Northern and Aboriginal businesses being 24 some of them. 25 The population has grown by over 6 percent

1 since 1996. Andy talked about employment rates and income, 2 in addition, there's been a decline in some of the 3 traditional land use practices over time. 4 However, it's clear that the traditional 5 economy is still relatively strong, and it's an important 6 cornerstone of lifestyle and culture. 7 Over three-quarters of the people in the NWT 8 consume harvested meat and fish, and this was echoed by the 9 Elders last night. 10 It's also important to understand the 11 government's perspective. And as a result, we carried out 12 reviews of government policies, plans, and programs, and Andy 13 mentioned some of those as well. 14 I want to emphasize that the documents that we 15 looked at, in them the GNWT has advocated for and committed 16 to, working in partnerships with aboriginal groups, industry, 17 other governments, and business, to improve living standards 18 and quality of life for northern residents. 19 And towards a better tomorrow, the GNWT has 20 committed to ensure that income and employment from resource 21 development projects are realized by aboriginal and northern 22 residents. 23 Likewise, the various business plans have 24 identified partnerships to share the benefits of non- 25 renewable resource development as a top priority.

1 In addition, the primary communities and 2 aboriginal organizations have also indicated support for and 3 commitment to working in partnership. And I think this was 4 mentioned by every Elder in their presentations last night. 5 These commitments are also the same 6 commitments that De Beers has made to partnerships. All of 7 the key players are agreed that partnerships play a major 8 role in the economic and social development in the NWT. And 9 I think that that's a good sign that everyone is on the same 10 page with regard to partnerships. 11 I'll add that the Board's Consultant, Richard 12 Roberts, noted in the pre-hearing conference that 13 partnerships take a lot -- lot of commitment and hard work to 14 put in place. But once they're put in place, they work 15 extremely well. And I would point out that our own 16 observation and experience support that view. 17 Now, the emphasis in our analysis in the 18 Environmental Assessment has been on the primary communities. 19 And I'll just mention them so people are aware of what we're 20 talking about, Lutsel K', Wha Ti, Wekweti, Rae-Edzo, Gameti, 21 N'Dilo, Dettah, the North Slave Metis Alliance and 22 Yellowknife. 23 In almost all of these primary communities, 24 there has been growth in educational attainment. In 1989, 25 less than half the majority -- less than half the community

1 members had Grade 9. By 1999, a majority of community 2 members had more than Grade 9. 3 The level of participation in traditional 4 activities over this period has fluctuated in the primary 5 communities. For example, in Lutsel K'e, hunting and fishing 6 rate was at about 53 percent in 1988. It fell to 32 percent 7 in 1993 but then increased again to 74 percent in 1998. The 8 consumption of harvested meat and fish in the primary 9 communities is well over 90 percent. 10 Now, in any socio-economic impact assessment, 11 community views and information are extremely important, 12 that's why it plays a central role in the work that we 13 undertook. The objectives of our community visits were 14 several, it was to obtain and verify information, to confirm 15 and validate our analysis as we carried out our work. And 16 thirdly, to engage in discussion of how impact management 17 measures that were being proposed could best be implemented 18 to meet the needs of the various communities. 19 We visited the communities several times to 20 confirm the information we had was accurate, that our 21 analysis, as we proceeded, was also considered to be accurate 22 and relevant. In the later rounds of meetings, we began 23 discussing the impact management measures and whether or not 24 they might address the concerns and issues that were raised. 25 The meetings that we held, the interviews we

1 held, were with community leaders, that is, Elders, Chief and 2 Council, Band Staff, and importantly, those people that have 3 had experiences with the existing mines and what the 4 implications have been for them and their families. 5 The bottom line is that we held about a 6 hundred (100) interviews and thirty-nine (39) community 7 meetings during an eighteen (18) month period of doing the EA 8 work. And approximately two hundred (200) person days were 9 spent in the primary communities. 10 Since the technical sessions in late November, 11 early December of 2002, we've had another approximately fifty 12 (50) interviews and meetings with key people in the primary 13 communities to discuss the impact management measure that are 14 being developed and refined. 15 This next slide identifies the key social, 16 economic issues and concerns. We've grouped them into nine 17 (9) major categories. And in those discussions in 18 communities, people shared their experiences with us, around 19 the existing mine activity and what it has meant, as well as 20 broader societal conditions with which families and 21 communities are coping. All of this is input to carrying out 22 the impact assessment analysis and the development of 23 measures -- impact management measures. 24 We also, based on our experience and the 25 information generated, described two (2) scenarios, which are

1 in the appendices to the EA. A best case, where all the 2 impact management measure are effectively implemented, and a 3 worst case, where they are not. 4 The best case scenario assumes that the 5 partnerships are developed and implemented, consistent with 6 the stated objectives and commitments of all the parties. 7 The worst case, based on our experience, we consider to be 8 highly improbable but we described it anyway. 9 Why do we consider it to be improbable? 10 Because development and implementation of impact management 11 measures is something that De Beers is committed to. 12 However, if some of the partnerships are not 13 fully developed, then the achievements that we talk about in 14 the EA report could be less than predicted. 15 This next slide provides the framework that 16 shows the relationship between the project, our analysis of 17 the predicted impacts and the responses to those predicted 18 impacts. I'm going to deal with these in some detail as we 19 go through the presentation but I want to take a minute just 20 to explain this slide. 21 Obviously the proposal is the Snap Lake 22 Diamond Project which is in front of the Board. The analysis 23 is of predicted impacts is our analysis in the documents in 24 the Environmental Assessment. And as part of that analysis 25 to deal with the positive impacts, that is maximising them,

1 to deal with the negative effects, to minimise them or 2 prevent them, we've identified a range of impact management 3 measures. Things that need to be done. 4 Who will do what deals with De Beers' 5 responsibilities and also roles and responsibilities that 6 others have to play in dealing with the broad range of 7 impacts that we have identified. How will it be done? Some 8 De Beers is directly responsible for and will do. Others 9 will emerge as a result of partnerships and still others will 10 be identified and be part of formal negotiated agreements. 11 When is all this going to happen? Well, 12 Mr. Chairman, Board Members, as you know, the environmental 13 assessment processes from the beginning of a project through 14 to implementation take a lot of time. But some of them are 15 being done now. De Beers had made commitments to 16 implementing various impact management measures over the 17 project life, and still others will be accomplished when the 18 various agreements and partnerships are negotiated. 19 In our analysis, we focussed on considering 20 the conditions required to maximise the positive effects. We 21 also considered the pre-existing social conditions that 22 community members described to us, such as substance abuse 23 problems, lower education and life skills, levels and 24 pressure on aboriginal cultures. 25 Considering all of these things led to the

1 development of impact management measures to do three (3) 2 things: To maximise the range of positive effects, to work 3 towards addressing negative effects, and to deal with 4 community stated issues and concerned. 5 And also there needs to be monitoring to 6 demonstrate that the impact management measures are, in fact, 7 meeting the needs and to provide the information necessary to 8 make changes as might be required during the life of the 9 project. 10 This next slide deals with some of the major 11 direct impacts. These are the ones that result from the 12 actual mine construction and operation. And our analysis, 13 and Andy mentioned this as well, identified a number of 14 direct impacts including the increased employment for 15 aboriginal northern residents for a more than twenty-five 16 (25) year period. 17 There will be increased employment training 18 opportunities which will assist in developing skills and 19 capacity. And some individuals and families will have the 20 benefit of consistent wage employment and the positive things 21 that that may bring, in addition to the tax revenue that Andy 22 has discussed as part of the direct impacts. 23 In addition, we looked at indirect impacts. 24 That is, some of the things that can happen because Snap Lake 25 Diamond Mine is built and operating. There are some impact

1 management measures that were described which can contribute 2 to the longer term community economic sustainability and 3 diversity through supporting existing and encouraging new 4 northern business. 5 That is, to help create employment 6 opportunities that are not directly related to the Snap Lake 7 Diamond Project but are related to providing services and 8 supporting people who do benefit directly from Snap Lake. 9 In addition, support services to contribute to 10 addressing some of the underlying social concerns, and assist 11 individuals and families in communities, to ensure that 12 people benefit broadly from the Snap Lake project have been 13 identified, and finally, support for activities to help 14 promote cultural well-being. 15 Another requirement of impact assessment work 16 is to look at cumulative effects, and in our discussions in 17 communities, the issues of cumulative effects were rolled up 18 into the issues related to Snap Lake Diamond Project 19 proposal. 20 The cumulative effects were generally 21 discussed by references to experiences with BHP and Diavik, 22 and asking questions like, what differences might a third 23 mine make? 24 Carrying out socio-economic cumulative impact 25 is a challenging process, because the BHP and Diavik

1 experiences are also part of the background that we address 2 in looking the Snap Lake site-specific analysis. 3 In other words, there's overlap. The two (2) 4 blend into each other, so it's not possible to clearly 5 differentiate the effects from BHP and Diavik, from the 6 predicted impacts for the Snap Lake project. 7 However, there is the benefit of having BHP 8 and Diavik as relevant local case studies, and that 9 contributes to some understanding of the cumulative impacts. 10 Now, the approach we used, we took the issues 11 and concerns -- if you remember back to the slide, I think we 12 had nine (9) issues and concerns, and we tried to group them 13 into five (5) broad categories, and then to describe what 14 those cumulative effects could be. 15 The categories we looked at dealt with -- or 16 the themes were employment and income levels, the increased 17 demand for labour, regional economic development, changes in 18 social capacity, and changes in cultural practices and 19 traditions. 20 Our analysis involved the review of all the 21 available information that we had, in terms of the issues and 22 concerns, our reference to scenarios that we developed, the 23 current experiences from the BHP and Diavik projects, and 24 from other similar projects. 25 All of these helped increase understanding of

1 cumulative effects. 2 We also discussed our analysis with a cross- 3 section of community res -- or, representatives. We applied 4 a reasoning process utilizing this information and our 5 professional experience to describe the anticipated 6 cumulative effects. 7 And then, that information was used by us in 8 developing impact management measures for the Snap Lake 9 Diamond project, but developing them in such a way that they 10 also can address cumulative effects. 11 What -- what will be done? What will we do? 12 The socio-economic component of the EA has described fourteen 13 (14) impact management measures, broad categories to address 14 the three (3) areas you see in front of you. 15 These impact management measures are intended 16 to get the most out of a positive effects, and to prevent, or 17 reduce any negative effects. 18 I'll deal with each of those in a moment, in a 19 little more detail. 20 The other point I would draw to your attention 21 is that in identifying the impact management measures, we 22 designed them also to compliment each other. That is, one 23 (1) measure sometimes builds on another, or feeds into 24 another. 25 Many of these impact management measures

1 include actions that are solely the responsibility of De 2 Beers. Others, are ones where De Beers has a role to play in 3 partnership with Government agencies and communities. 4 For example, De Beers will partner with others 5 to provide social and community support, or educational 6 upgrading and training. 7 These impact management measures will be 8 implemented either directly by De Beers, or through a number 9 of agreements, which include the impact benefit agreements 10 being negotiated with communities, the socio-economic 11 agreement, and the range of activities that will comprise the 12 human resources development plan. 13 Now, Mr. Chairman, and Board members, as you 14 know, the EA was submitted in February 2002, and since that 15 time, considerable work has been undertaken to further 16 develop some of these impact management measures. 17 This slide makes reference to the impact 18 management measures for recruitment training and employment. 19 There are five (5) impact management measure categories, but 20 within them there are multiple program activities, and some 21 of them have been identified there. 22 I will make reference to one (1) that's 23 currently underway, and that is the pre-apprenticeship 24 training program, which has twenty-seven (27) participants. 25 It may interest the Board to know that more

1 than seventy (70) people applied for this program, and so De 2 Beers doubled the size of the class to twenty-seven (27) to 3 accommodate all those who were qualified. And of those 4 twenty-seven (27) participants, fifty-five (55) (sic) are 5 Aboriginal. 6 With respect to health and wellness, there are 7 seven (7) impact management measures. In these measures, De 8 Beers has already made major commitments to community liaison 9 personnel to ensure that there is flow of information on a 10 consistent basis between the primary communities and the 11 Company. 12 And also, De Beers has committed to ensuring 13 that transportation to the site will be directly from the 14 primary communities. 15 In both of these instances, these are in 16 direct response to issues and concerns that we heard loud and 17 clear from our meetings with community residents. 18 And with other impact management measures, De 19 Beers has recognized they have a role to play in helping to 20 promote cultural awareness, traditional practices, family, 21 and community support systems. 22 There are two (2) major impact management 23 measures with respect to economic development. And these are 24 to assist northern and Aboriginal business, to obtain 25 contracts, and provide services.

1 To date, several northern firms, and 2 Aboriginal firms, have had contracts for the Snap Lake 3 Diamond Project. 4 By providing opportunities for northern and 5 Aboriginal business, De Beers will be helping northern 6 communities to diversify over time. 7 One of the activities that has been 8 implemented has been the hiring of a business development 9 coordinator to work with aboriginal and northern businesses. 10 And I expect that some people in the room have had meeting 11 with Mike Padula in that regard. 12 This slide -- who's going to do what? Well, 13 as mentioned before, De Beers will carry out activities by 14 themselves, to implant -- implement impact management 15 measures. I've just provided a few examples. 16 Others will be developed in partnerships, and 17 some of those partnerships might be between De Beers, and one 18 (1) of the other potential partners listed. Other activities 19 may involve many partners. 20 How will this be done? Work has begun. In 21 the technical sessions, De Beers provided a draft report on 22 developing human resources for the Snap Lake Diamond Project. 23 Additional work has been undertaken since then 24 to develop some of the activities. De Beers has also had 25 meetings around partnerships with some government agencies

1 and communities. 2 A number of examples are provided on that 3 slide. I'll just mention one (1). The Career and Technical 4 Centre, which was recently announced, is a partnership 5 between De Beers, the GNWT Education Culture and Employment 6 Department, and the Yellowknife Catholic Schools. 7 In addition to partnerships that would be 8 developed in that manner, there will clearly be more formal 9 agreements, such as the Socio-economic Agreement. 10 When is all of this going to happen? Some are 11 already underway, there's other activities that are underway. 12 An example is the Mine Management Training Committee; a 13 partnership of the GNWT, industry, the communities, and the 14 NWT and Nunavut Chamber of Mines. Their objective is to 15 identify how to meet the broad training needs of the mining 16 industry. 17 The IBA negotiations, which will spell out the 18 relationship between De Beers and primary communities, are 19 underway. 20 It's important to note that other partnership 21 discussions will be undertaken. However, as the Board, I'm 22 sure is aware, development of partnerships emerge from 23 negotiations between various parties, and they take time. 24 However, it's that it's desirable to have 25 these concluded as quickly as possible so the benefits can be

1 realized earlier. 2 Socio-economic monitoring is an integral part 3 of environmental assessment. It's undertaken to confirm 4 predictions of impact and to evaluate the effectiveness of 5 impact management measures. 6 The socio-economic impacts will change over 7 time as the Snap Lake Project evolves, and the impact 8 management measures are implemented. Likewise, over the life 9 of the mine, the impacts could vary from community to 10 community. 11 Therefore, it is important that the trends be 12 monitored on a regular basis, to ensure that impact 13 management measures are appropriate, and to provide 14 opportunities to adapt or modify them as conditions warrant. 15 For example, I fully expect that measures to 16 provide educational upgrading may diminish over time, while 17 measures to provide specialized training will increase. 18 Likewise, measures to provide money management 19 may decrease over time. 20 One (1) of the values of looking at case 21 studies is that you can see what has happened in similar 22 circumstances. And the -- the issues I've mentioned is 23 basically the pattern that has occurred over some twenty (20) 24 years experience with Cominco and Cogema. 25 Now, the socio-economic monitoring agreement

1 is currently being discussed, and there are three (3) main 2 constituencies involved in that negotiation. Each of those 3 constituencies brings with it a view of the -- what the 4 agreement should contain and how it could be managed. 5 They're currently engaged in some discussions, 6 just trying to seek accommodation with all of their 7 respective views. And this is an ongoing process that will 8 continue until an agreement is reached. 9 The broad categories -- among the broad 10 categories being discussed that would be part of such an 11 agreement are training and education, employment, business, 12 health and wellness and the overall protocols for monitoring. 13 The next few slides come to the end of my 14 presentation and summarize. How will people in communities 15 be affected? With the development of the Snap Lake Diamond 16 Project, and the implementation of the impact management 17 measures, we see a number of key benefits. 18 These are in the area of employment, with long 19 term sustained wage employment, skills and capacity 20 development because of increased education and skill level 21 training, community development, which would include 22 increased northern and Aboriginal business development, 23 improving quality of life for families and communities, and 24 some reduction in some of the underlying social conditions, 25 and the tax revenue.

1 De Beers has indicated a commitment to take 2 responsibility for helping put the right conditions in place 3 to ensure that the positive impacts are maximized, negative 4 impacts, minimized. 5 One (1) of the questions might be, do we have 6 enough information? We have considerable amount of 7 information coming directly from the communities, the case 8 studies. And it's our view that we have more than sufficient 9 information for our analysis and to predict potential socio- 10 economic impacts. 11 The analysis we have is based on recent and 12 real experience, and the research and interaction with the 13 communities has identified the ways in which De Beers can 14 ensure that the positive socio-economic impacts are maximized 15 and the negative minimized. 16 How sure are we of our analysis? We have a 17 very high degree of confidence because it is based on 18 extensive research in the primary communities. It is based 19 on relevant, recent experience, discussion with government 20 officials and review of similar projects. 21 And throughout our approach to the socio- 22 economic impact assessment, we drew on the inputs and 23 insights of Elders and other key people in the communities, 24 their insight based on experience with BHP and Diavik, their 25 insights based on experience with government programs. And

1 we used this information to identify appropriate impact 2 management measures. 3 In addition, we have De Beers commitments to 4 the impact management measures, to the monitoring and to a 5 flexible and adaptive approach to impact management. 6 As with all prediction of social and economic 7 impacts, there is some level of uncertainty, and that 8 uncertainty comes from a number of trends and influences. 9 For example, society can be affected by a lot 10 of factors outside the control of a territory or community 11 such as international monetary changes, global markets, 12 exposure to global communication. Likewise, government 13 policies can not necessarily be predicted for long periods of 14 time. 15 Further, all societies and cultures have a 16 dynamic nature to them and they, themselves, change over time 17 by reacting and adapting to a range of influences. 18 Finally, individuals, families and communities 19 will react or adapt differently to projected changes and 20 influences. Some may gravitate to the changes and build on 21 them. Others may not. 22 However, Mr. Chairman and Board Members, the 23 objectives are clear. The objectives are to maximize the 24 positive impacts and minimize the negative impacts over the 25 twenty-five (25) year life of this project.

1 So this means, regardless of what changing 2 influences occur over the next twenty-five (25) years, we 3 need to keep focussed on those objectives to maximize the 4 positive and minimize the negative and as we go along, make 5 the changes necessary to ensure we meet those objectives. 6 The way to do that is to have an effective process of 7 monitoring and adaptive management. 8 De Beers is committed to fourteen (14) impact 9 management measures as noted and are currently doing a number 10 of activities and I believe Robin Johnstone mentioned the 11 activities that he's doing in 2003 and the commitments 12 they've made to date. 13 My final slide. Are these socio-economic 14 impacts acceptable? In our judgment, the overall socio- 15 economic impacts are acceptable. The basic question one has 16 to ask is: With the approval of the Snap Lake Diamond 17 Project, will people be better off as individuals, families, 18 and communities? 19 It is possible that there may be some adverse 20 impacts for some individuals and some families. This is 21 precisely why the impact management measures have been 22 designed to minimize these adverse impacts by creating 23 support systems to help individuals and to encourage them to 24 take advantage of some of the opportunities that will arise 25 because of this project.

1 With the implementation of the impact 2 management measures and the monitoring for -- program for the 3 Snap Lake Diamond Project, we believe there will be many 4 socio-economic benefits beyond mine employment. And these 5 include an increase in socio-economic sustainable 6 development, efforts -- additional efforts to address 7 outstanding pre-existing social conditions, support for 8 traditional values, increased individual capacities and 9 increased community capacities. 10 But, Mr. Chairman, Board Members, in 11 conclusion, in the context of my summary, I say we are 12 confident that the overall socio-economic impacts from the 13 Snap Lake Diamond Project will support the objectives of the 14 GNWT and bring benefits to the primary and catchment 15 communities. Thank you. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Homenuck. 17 Thank you. Questions for De Beers, Yellowknives Dene...? 18 MR. TIME BYER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes. 19 We have one (1) for Mr. Swiderski. Andy, you said that one 20 (1) of the important benefits of -- of mine developments is, 21 of course, increased income for community members and, of 22 course, from that you have reduced welfare payments. 23 Now, the benefit of having reduced welfare 24 payments is that it frees up, in your opinion, Government 25 money that can be put back into social and education programs

1 into the community. 2 I'm wondering, do you have any information at 3 all, and I know you're not a -- a Government person, but do 4 you have any information at all as to whether, in fact, 5 freed-up monies do go back into community programs, or would 6 those monies go back into general revenues of Government to 7 be redistributed to God knows what Government programs? 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Byers. I 9 think that that's a question that the Proponent can't answer, 10 however, the Government of the Northwest Territories will be 11 making a presentation, and I think probably, they'll be in a 12 position to answer that question. 13 Ms. Crapeau...? 14 MS. RACHEL CRAPEAU: Rachel Crapeau, 15 Yellowknives Dene. I have a question for Mr. Homenuck. 16 Slide number 19, on the impact management measures, he talked 17 about a program that people applied to for training, and I 18 was wondering which program that he was talking about, where 19 at least seventy (70) people applied. 20 Was that on the site learning centre, or the 21 literacy programs? I couldn't catch which one it was? 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. 23 McConnell...? 24 MR. JOHN McCONNELL: Mr. Chairman, I'll ask 25 John Simpson of Genesis Group to respond to that question.

1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. Simpson...? 2 MR. JOHN SIMPSON: John Simpson, Genesis 3 Group. It's the trades entrance study tutorial program. 4 It's happening next door at the College right now, and it's 5 to prepare people to pass the trades entrance exam. 6 MS. RACHEL CRAPEAU: Trades entrance and 7 tutorial training at Arctic College? 8 MR. JOHN SIMPSON: It's a De Beers program, 9 and it's in partnership with the college. Trades entrance 10 study tutorial, it's called the TEST program. It's sort of 11 -- to prepare people for the test, the trades entrance exam, 12 so they can go in -- go on to be apprentices and journeymen. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 14 MS. RACHEL CRAPEAU: Just one (1) more 15 question, please? 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead, Ms. Crapeau. 17 MS. RACHEL CRAPEAU: For Mr. Homenuck's 18 presentation. In the second last slide, how sure are we, 19 that one. It -- it says, in these measures -- in part, these 20 measures would -- will also be implemented through IBA 21 negotiations, socio-economic agreements, and the third one 22 (1), I'm interested in, the socio-economic monitoring 23 program. 24 The monitoring program, is it designed so that 25 people from the communities can be part of that monitoring

1 program? 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. McConnell...? 3 MR. JOHN McCONNELL: John McConnell with De 4 Beers. Mr. Chairman, we recognize that there's certainly a 5 need for community involvement in the socio-economic 6 monitoring program, and those -- those negotiations with the 7 GNWT, and the primary communities are ongoing right now, and 8 would form a component of a socio-economic agreement. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir. Indian and 10 Northern Affairs Canada? 11 NWT and Nunavut Chamber of Mines? No. 12 Northwest Territory Metis Nation? No. 13 North Slave Metis Alliance. Ms. Johnson, 14 there was a question from last night, and I believe De Beers 15 now has somebody available to answer that question that was 16 asked last night? 17 MS. KRIS JOHNSON: I'm just going to wait for 18 Ron to come back, and -- Kris Johnson for the North Slave 19 Metis Alliance -- I just have a few questions. 20 You mentioned that there would be growth in 21 directly affected communities, and you had a graph on the 22 first presentation. I'm just wondering if that growth's 23 uniform for all Aboriginal communities? 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Swiderski...? 25 MR. ANDY SWIDERSKI: Andy Swiderski with

1 Terriplan. Mr. Chairman, the -- the figure that was 2 presented, were actuals not -- not projected estimates, and 3 they are for the -- the primary communities. 4 I think it would be fair -- fair to say that 5 your conclusion is correct. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms. Johnson...? 7 MS. KRIS JOHNSON: Kris Johnson from the 8 North Slave Metis Alliance. I have another question. You 9 mentioned that if the agreements that are being developed are 10 not as predicted that the impact on communities will not be 11 as defined in the EA. 12 Would you be of the opinion that it would be 13 safe to say that these agreements should be before the Board, 14 before they can make their assessment? 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. McConnell...? 16 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: John McConnell, De Beers 17 Canada. I think we've -- we've made a commitment to 18 negotiate these agreements with communities and the GNWT 19 Government. 20 The Board is aware of the components of these 21 agreements, and what are involved. There is the past 22 precedence of the EKATI Mine, and Diavik. 23 So, I think the Board can take some comfort in 24 understanding the commitments that are contained in these 25 agreements, and that it's not necessary that they be

1 concluded before the Environmental Assessment process is 2 complete. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. Johnson...? 4 MS. KRIS JOHNSON: One more question for 5 clarification. Kris Johnson, from the North Slave Metis 6 Alliance. 7 You mentioned that in some of your graphs you 8 took out Yellowknife to get a more accurate example of what 9 the directly effected communities would look like. 10 Did that include taking out the North Slave 11 Metis? 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. 13 Swiderski...? 14 Mr. McConnell...? 15 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: John McConnell, De Beers. 16 It's our understanding that the North Slave Metis Alliance 17 represents Metis in communities, including Yellowknife and 18 Rae-Edzo. 19 So, I guess you could say that, in part, some 20 would be taken out in that analysis, and some would still be 21 in. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. Johnson...? 23 MS. KRIS JOHNSON: I'm going to pass it off to 24 Ron Balsillie, for his questions. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr.

1 Balsillie...? 2 MR. RON BALSILLIE: Right. I just have one 3 (1) question that wasn't answered last night. And could you 4 tell us, please, what is the present value of your existing 5 discovered diamond reserves, on an undiscounted and before 6 tax basis? 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. 8 McConnell...? 9 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: Mr. Swiderski will 10 answer. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. 12 Swiderski...? 13 MR. ANDY SWIDERSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 14 Andy Swiderski, with Terriplan. The -- the estimated total 15 resource life of the mine is 32.34 million karats, with an 16 estimated current market prices, approximate value of 3.913 17 million, Mr. Chairman. 18 MR. RON BALSILLIE: Thank you, that's it. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: 3.193 billion. Thank you. 20 Thank you, Mr. Balsillie. 21 Fisheries and Oceans Canada...? 22 Dogrib Treaty 11...? 23 Canadian Arctic Resources Committee, Mr. 24 O'Reilly...? 25 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Thank you. A couple of

1 questions. The first one is with regard to a technical 2 memorandum that De Beers submitted to the Board on February 3 the 28th, it's titled, Overview of Project Milestones and 4 Monitoring and Management Programs for the Snap Lake Diamond 5 Project. 6 Table 1, indicates that De Beers anticipates 7 completing negotiations on a socio-economic agreement by June 8 the 3rd, and finalizing the Impact and Benefit Agreements on 9 the same date. 10 I'm just wondering, are these dates still good 11 for De Beers, is that what they anticipate? 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. 13 McConnell...? 14 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: Thank you. John 15 McConnell, with De Beers. We still think those dates are 16 goals, however, one of the biggest problems has been 17 capacity, in both government and the Aboriginal communities. 18 And just the ability to get people together to 19 meet to carry out these discussions and finalize things. So, 20 they're probably now stretched targets, in terms of 21 concluding agreements by those dates, but we still are 22 committed to completing them prior to moving the project to 23 construction. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. 25 O'Reilly...?

1 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Thank you. I do have a 2 couple of other -- a few other questions, here. In Mr. 3 Swiderski's presentation, on the 6th slide, he indicates that 4 De Beers has already invested some $100 million into the Snap 5 Lake Diamond Project. 6 I assume this is the investment after the 7 purchase? And what was the purchase price for the property, 8 or is that something that can be disclosed? 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. McConnell...? 10 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: John McConnell with De 11 Beers. This is the actual investment in the exploration 12 process, to date. It does not include the purchase price. 13 However, I don't think the purchase price is 14 confidential. The purchase of Winspear and Aber's (phonetic) 15 share in the project was something in the order of $500 16 million. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. So, with the 18 five hundred (500) plus the hundred (100), then, the total 19 expenditures to date has been approximately 600 million? 20 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: That's correct. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. 22 O'Reilly...? 23 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Thank you. Further on 24 in Mr. Swiderski's slides, there's so many I don't know 25 which -- I guess it's at the top of page 4, this is the two

1 (2) graphs showing -- bar graphs, showing the decline in 2 income support payments in primary communities, and then 3 another one (1) with primary communities excluding 4 Yellowknife. 5 And I'm just wondering whether these bar 6 graphs include -- it's my understanding that the Government 7 of the Northwest Territories claws back or reduces social 8 assistance payments by the equivalent amount of impact and 9 benefit agreement payments that may be made to Aboriginal 10 communities. 11 So does this -- how does -- does this bar 12 graph actually account for that? 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Swirderski...? 14 MR. ANDREW SWIRDERSKI: Thank you, Mr. 15 Chairman. Andy Swirderski with Terriplan. The information 16 that is projected in our presentation is from published 17 sources, from the GNWT. I do not have any information with 18 respect to whether that includes or excludes claw backs. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Swirderski. 20 Perhaps you could put that to the Government of the Northwest 21 Territories when they make their presentation, Mr. O'Reilly? 22 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Yes, thank you. There's 23 another slide that I wanted to ask a question about, this is 24 at the top of -- it's the first one (1) on page 6. And the 25 title of the slide is, 'Model Assumptions and Projections.'

1 And it talks about local labour, and that the 2 assumptions that were used in the modelling, and it says: 3 "Construction, 40 percent, operations and 4 closure at 60 percent." 5 Are these targets, then, that De Beers is 6 prepared to commit to in a socio-economic agreement? 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. McConnell...? 8 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 9 I guess much has been made, both by the GNWT and others, 10 certainly in the technical session and in opening 11 presentations this week, about De Beers willingness to -- 12 willingness or unwillingness to commit to employment targets. 13 I think, to a certain extent, we've taken a 14 different approach on employment targets, and that's based on 15 a -- a number of things. First, is my experience at 16 Nanasivik (phonetic), that targets can sometimes become 17 stumbling blocks if they're un -- unrealistic. And they can 18 become dis-incentives in striving for higher levels. 19 Second, targets, on their own, can have a 20 negative impact of they're not managed properly. 21 For example, we hear in the communities now, 22 that, don't be hiring kids that are in Grade 10 and 11. 23 Don't come into our community and offer them jobs as truck 24 drivers. We want them to finish high school. 25 So that is a possible negative impact of

1 imposing targets on an industrial operation. 2 And third, I guess part of our reluctance has 3 been that we haven't understood, really well, what the 4 employment capacity would be in the area post-Diavik 5 construction. 6 Now, this all said, in the -- Mr. O'Reilly's 7 correct, in our economic analysis we did make projections of 8 40, 60, 60 percent northerner employment during construction, 9 operation and closure. 10 I guess, based on the more recent information 11 such as the capacity analysis carried out by Terriplan, the 12 announced closure of the Miramar Con Mine in 2005 and, kind 13 of, anecdotal evidence of the success of our recent 14 apprenticeship bridging program, you know, we are -- we feel 15 that those estimates that we've made in the economic analysis 16 can be met and are willing to commit to those targets. 17 But, you know, we have gone a step further, we 18 think, with the HRD strategy that we've put together. We 19 feel that this is a real opportunity to move forward with and 20 ensure that there are -- that we can surpass those goals and 21 that there are both northerner and Aboriginal participation 22 in the project at all operational and management levels 23 throughout the twenty-five (25) year life of the mine. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. O'Reilly...? 25 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Sorry, I guess I wasn't

1 quite sure. Was that a yes or a no then? 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Up to you to make up your 3 mind, Mr. O'Reilly. 4 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Okay. Maybe I'll ask it 5 again then: Is De Beers then prepared to commit to these 6 targets in a socio-economic agreement? 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. McConnell...? 8 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: John McConnell with 9 De Beers. Yes. We feel very comfortable that we can meet 10 those estimates. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 12 Mr. O'Reilly...? 13 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: I'm very pleased to hear 14 that and I think that's the first time we have that 15 commitment from the Company. 16 One (1) further question on the last set of 17 slides -- the set of slides from Mr. Swiderski, the very last 18 slide shows, I think it's corporate income tax from the 19 Government of the Northwest Territories -- or that would 20 accrue to the Government of the Northwest Territories, and 21 does that figure reflect, I believe, last year in June the 22 territorial government reduced the corporate tax rate, if I 23 remember correctly I think it was from 12 to 10 percent which 24 is about a 7 percent drop cumulatively. 25 But does this figure actually reflect that

1 drop in the corporate tax rate? 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Swiderski...? 3 MR. ANDY SWIDERSKI: Mr. Chairman, Andy 4 Swiderski with Terriplan Consultants. The change in the 5 GNWT's corporate tax structure was from 14 to 12 percent and 6 second, the adjustments to this figure do not include that -- 7 that minor reduction. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 9 Mr. O'Reilly...? 10 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Thanks. I guess it's 11 more than just a minor reduction although the marginal rate 12 was from fourteen (14) to twelve (12) that's actually a 13 7 percent decrease in the -- in the rate but we won't quibble 14 about that. 15 I did want to ask one (1) other question of 16 De Beers and it relates to the handout that we've got from 17 the Government of the Northwest Territories on their socio- 18 economic presentation and maybe I'm jumping the gun a bit, 19 but I'm afraid that if my colleagues at the territorial 20 government don't ask this question, it may not get asked. 21 So, on their over -- or their PowerPoint 22 presentation there's some discussion of energy sources for 23 the Snap Lake mine and it mentions in here that De Beers 24 utilised low sulphur fuel in its air emission predictions and 25 that, I guess, was the basis for their modelling.

1 Is De Beers actually going to use low sulphur 2 fuel at the site? 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. McConnell...? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. JOHN McCONNELL: John McConnell with De 8 Beers. I -- I guess I'm not exactly sure, but I will find 9 out, and get back to the Board with the answer to that 10 question later in the day. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. McConnell. 12 Mr. O'Reilly...? 13 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Okay, yeah, I'd -- I'd 14 appreciate the hearing back, and if they will prepare to make 15 that commitment, I think it would be a helpful one (1). 16 I think my colleague just had a few questions 17 as well. Thank you. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, that being the case 19 then, we will take a coffee break. It's now 10:30. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 10:30 a.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 10:43 a.m. 23 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, we'll now resume the 25 Hearing. And we had questions from CARC for the proponent?

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Dr. 4 Montgomery...? 5 MS. SHELAGH MONTGOMERY: Thank you. Shelagh 6 Montgomery, CARC. I have a quick question, it's based on 7 some of the information presented during Andy Swiderski's 8 talk, specifically page 6, the slide in the top right corner, 9 'Canada Impacts'. 10 And I'm just curious, in the annual operations 11 column we have a value for average annual expenditure of 12 about 120.7 million. Total expenditure, just above that, 13 over the twenty-two (22) years of anticipated operations is 14 indicated as not available or not applicable. 15 I'm just curious would that value simply not 16 be simply more or less twenty-two (22) times a hundred and 17 twenty point seven (120.7)? 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Swiderski...? 19 MR. ANDY SWIDERSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 20 Andy Swiderski with Terriplan. The -- the figure that 21 Dr. Montgomery refers to is that -- it's not applicable in 22 the sense that the intent of the 120.7 million in annual 23 operating costs generally will -- will be a consistent 24 pattern over the twenty-two (22) years. 25 But with respect to the question of is a

1 figure available, I will provide that momentarily, Mr. 2 Chairman. The basis equation is, as Dr. Montgomery outlined, 3 it is a factor of about twenty-two (22) years but there are 4 some adjustments depending on what part of the year 5 construction and operations start. But generally that is the 6 pattern. And it is contained in the full EA submission. 7 MS. SHEILA MONTGOMERY: Okay. Sheila 8 Montgomery, CARC. So the follow up then to that is, if it's 9 approximately one-twenty point seven (120.7) times twenty-two 10 (22) that's about 2.7 billion over twenty-two (22) years. 11 We heard that the estimated -- the value of 12 what's anticipated to be mined at De Beers over its lifetime 13 is about 3.9 billion so the anticipated -- and that doesn't 14 even include taxes and other, sort of, deductions from that 15 amount. 16 That ends up with a positive amount of about 17 1.2 billion over twenty-two (22) years, is that what's 18 anticipated, that would be about 5 million per year? 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 20 Mr. Swiderski...? 21 MR. ANDY SWIDERSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 22 The -- the point with regards to what's left over is a rather 23 complicated accounting question and I am not -- I am not 24 qualified as an accountant to address that. 25 But, essentially, once -- once you take a look

1 at the operating costs, take -- take off corporate taxes, 2 mineral royalties, depreciation on the operations, that is 3 essentially what you're left with, Mr. Chairman. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Okay. Next up, 5 Government of Northwest Territories, any questions for the 6 Proponent? 7 MR. GAVIN MORE: Gavin More, Northwest 8 Territories. We have no questions. But I would -- we would 9 like to make one (1) remark for the record and I'd like to 10 introduce Lesley Allen, Deputy Minister for Education, 11 Culture and Employment. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Keep it short 13 please. Thank you. 14 MS. LESLEY ALLEN: Thank you, 15 Mr. Chairperson. As -- as they said, I'm Lesley Allen from 16 the GNWT. Just a point of clarification. 17 We are relieved that there is now a commitment 18 by De Beers to employment targets. This is the first time we 19 have heard this and we are looking forward to confirming this 20 through the socio-economic process. Thank you. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Lutsel K'e Dene 22 First Nation, Ms. Catholique...? 23 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: Massi. I have 24 several questions. First question was -- was -- there was 25 mention of the increase in income in the affected communities

1 and I was just wondering is the data that was used to show 2 this for our community depicted the total membership of the 3 First Nation at home or also membership that were living 4 elsewhere? 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Swiderski...? 6 MR. ANDY SWIDERSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 7 Andy Swiderski with Terriplan. Ms. Catholique's question is 8 a fairly straightforward response. The information which -- 9 which we submitted to the Board was based on tax filings, and 10 tax filings are rooted to the permanent address of the filee. 11 So, the question is the income that's 12 attributed to the community of Lutsel K'e is for those who 13 are resident there, Mr. Chairman. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. 15 Catholique...? 16 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: Also, the -- the 17 next -- thank you, Mr. Chairman. The next question is, when 18 did the representatives of De Beers come to visit our 19 community to collect the data that has been presented on -- 20 on our community, and -- and what type of -- what type of 21 data was collected, and who -- who is the person that was met 22 with? 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. 24 Swiderski...? 25 MR. PETER HOMENUCK: Mr. Chairman, Peter

1 Homenuck. The -- that information is outlined in the 2 environmental assessment, and we can provide full details, 3 but I would just mention that I have just in front of me, 4 records of about eight (8) meetings, and we met with a number 5 of people, that's Chief, and Council members, Band Staff, 6 Elders, had a community meeting, and I can provide all the 7 dates. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. 9 Catholique...? 10 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: Just on that 11 question, was that for the socio-economic specifically, or 12 was it just meetings in general of other sources? 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Homenuck...? 14 MR. PETER HOMENUCK: Yes, Peter Homenuck. 15 The meetings I'm referring to, all but one (1) were with 16 respect to the socio-economic information gathering 17 information, information checking, verification. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. 19 Cathlolique...? 20 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: Okay. Next 21 question. There is also mentioned in your presentation the 22 -- the continuation of the -- our culture, and I just want to 23 know, how does De Beers see how they're going to be doing 24 that? 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Homenuck...?

1 MR. PETER HOMENUCK: Yes, Peter Homenuck. De 2 Beers will contribute it to promoting traditional values and 3 culture in a number of ways. They've made commitments to, 4 for example, providing country food at the site. 5 They've made commitments to ensure that there 6 is cross-cultural training. They've indicated they will en 7 -- engage in assisting with providing information to school 8 systems, as that might be appropriate, and in -- in effect, 9 what they will discuss in IBA negotiations with communities. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. 11 Catholique...? 12 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: There was also, in 13 your presentation, that provisions would be made in -- as an 14 indirect effect of the development on our -- on the social 15 services, leading towards healthy families, and I was kind of 16 wondering, how that was going to lead to healthy families, 17 because in our community, we know that social service does 18 not lead to healthy families. 19 It's only a band-aid to -- to not going 20 anywhere, and I -- I don't really understand how -- of what 21 you -- what you're -- what -- what it is that you're talking 22 to in regards to social services. 23 I would have thought it would have been better 24 to -- to say -- lead to healthy families would have been 25 education, support. So, just a clarity of that -- that one

1 (1), please? 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. 3 McConnell...? 4 MR. JOHN McCONNELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 5 I -- I don't think there was a question there. It was more 6 of a comment, or statement. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms. Catholique, would you 8 like to try again...? 9 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: I don't know which 10 slide that is, but there is a slide there that mentions, I 11 guess, it was in Peter Homenuck's presentation of -- fourteen 12 (14), slide 14. 13 "Analysis indirect impacts with 14 implementation of the impact measures -- 15 impact management measures, indirect 16 impacts on people and communities will 17 include provisions of social support 18 services leading to healthy individuals, 19 families and communities." 20 And I'm -- I'm just wondering, what does the 21 provisions of social support service mean? 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. 23 Homenuck...? 24 MR. PETER HOMENUCK: Yes, Peter Homenuck. 25 The point that's being referred to is that, there's a

1 recognition that community support services are things that 2 are needed in the primary communities. This was raised in 3 the various meetings that we had. 4 We fully recognize that that's a primary 5 responsibility of government, but De Beers is prepared to 6 assist in any way they can with respect to providing 7 counselling, for example, for mine employees, of employee 8 families, and counselling at the site. 9 But another element is clear recognition. And 10 your point about education, in terms of broad healthy 11 individuals and communities, there's a range of educational 12 activities that could be undertaken. And a whole series of 13 wellness initiatives have been identified for consideration 14 and for discussion with the communities. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. 16 Catholique...? 17 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: Marci, Mr. 18 Chairman. There was also mention in your presentation a 19 liaison person? I want to know if that liaison person is 20 going to be something similar to the liaison person that we 21 had for BHP, which is only one (1) person? And in the 22 Diavik one (1), it was a person that was hired before the -- 23 our IBA implementations could be done, and that person did 24 not -- either of them did not speak our language. 25 And I -- will the person -- will it just be

1 one (1) liaison person, or will it be a liaison person for 2 each of the Aboriginal groups that have a specific language? 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. 4 McConnell...? 5 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: John McConnell with De 6 Beers, Mr. Chairman. We've committed to two (2) liaison 7 personnel. We are faced with the problem of human resources 8 in terms of what languages they'll be -- they'll speak. 9 However, it is certainly our preference that, 10 of the two (2), one (1) would be fluent in Chipewyan and one 11 (1) would be fluent in Dogrib. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. 13 Catholique...? 14 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: Last question. 15 There was also mentioned in the presentations that some 16 contracts have been led. And I -- I just want to know if any 17 of those contracts are held with Lutsel K'e and which ones 18 are they? 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. McConnell...? 20 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: John McConnell. The 21 contracts referred to were during the advanced exploration 22 program, which concluded in August of 2001. So there are no 23 outstanding or ongoing contracts right now. 24 But the contracts that were in place with 25 Aboriginal groups during the AEP included EKATI Site

1 Services, Dogrib Development Corporation, and a joint venture 2 -- help me out here, Nahanni Construction. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 4 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: Marci. That's all 5 I have. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Before we move 7 to the next presentation, which is by the Yellowknives Dene, 8 I have a number of questions from the Board. 9 There is a lot of talk about employment, Mr. 10 McConnell. And for the record, the Board would like to know 11 if De Beers will be paying transportation costs for employees 12 who are living outside of the Northwest Territories, to and 13 from pickup points in the Northwest Territories? And if 14 there are going to be exceptions for the criteria? 15 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: John McConnell with 16 De Beers. No. We won't be paying transportation costs 17 outside of the NWT. Point of hires will be within the NWT. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir. I 19 understand that there was a list of community meetings in the 20 EIA, have De Beers updated this list since the filing of the 21 EIA and if you haven't, would you be prepared to do so? 22 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: We have updated it. 23 There has been ongoing meetings and we would be quite happy 24 to file that with the Board. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir. The Board

1 understands that you're presently negotiation IBA's with 2 affected communities and while the contents of those IBA's 3 are private, could the Proponent please advise the status of 4 the negotiations? 5 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: John McConnell with 6 De Beers. I guess, status is always a difficult thing in 7 terms of gauging it, say, from zero (0) to ten (10). But 8 you're correct, we are in active negotiations with Dogrib 9 Treaty 11 Council, the Yellowknives Dene representing N'Dilo 10 and Dettah, Lutsel K'e First Nation and the North Slave Metis 11 Alliance. 12 I'll start with the Dogrib Treaty 11 Council. 13 We've had negotiations with the Dogrib, actually going back 14 to my days with Winspear. So back to 1999. A lot of 15 discussions around Dogrib being involved as an equity partner 16 in the project and there's been various meetings up until, I 17 guess, the end of 2002. 18 Presently, we have had very few discussions 19 with them. As you can understand, they've been very focussed 20 on their land claim negotiations which are far more important 21 to them than focussing on discussions on a diamond mine 22 development. 23 However, those negotiations are coming to a 24 close with the Government of Canada so there has been 25 indications that -- from the Dogrib that they would like to

1 get back to the table and we would, as I said earlier, hope 2 to wrap those negotiations up with a -- an agreement as soon 3 as possible. 4 Similarly, with the North Slave Metis 5 Alliance, we've made very good progress on negotiations of an 6 IBA with them. Up until early this year, I think as people 7 know, there is a new election for a new board and officers 8 this weekend. 9 It was at the request of their legal counsel 10 that we suspended negotiations in November until the new 11 board of directors was put in place. So we'd anticipate that 12 negotiations there will pick up once the new board and 13 officers are in place. 14 The Yellowknives Dene, we, I guess, if you 15 were, as I said, measuring it from one (1) to ten (10), I 16 would characterise it as maybe being around seven (7) to 17 eight (8) in terms of negotiation. 18 There are a number of components of these 19 negotiations as we've discussed in the past, financial, 20 training, employment, business opportunities and many of 21 those aspects have been finalized, particularly wording of an 22 agreement has been finalized. 23 However, we are down to the most difficult 24 area which is always the financial component and we have a 25 number of meetings scheduled over the course of the next two

1 (2) months and we would hope to address those concerns there 2 and hopefully reach agreement. 3 Lutsel K'e, following very similar format to 4 that of the Yellowknives Dene in terms of the agreement. 5 And, I guess, again, characterising it from one (1) to ten 6 (10) we're probably around five (5). And -- we have agreed 7 on a number of areas, but there's a lot of work to be done 8 there yet. 9 And, again, we have a number of meetings 10 scheduled over the next couple of months and we would hope to 11 conclude those as soon as possible. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir. For Mr. 13 Swiderski, in your slide presentation, on page 28, titled, 14 Regional Labour Market, you say: 15 "Labour market conclusion: regional labour 16 supply sufficient to meet cumulative 17 demand, sufficient to meet cumulative total 18 labour demands, sufficient to meet 19 cumulative demand for both total and direct 20 mine jobs. The analysis further validates 21 the modelling labour assumptions and 22 projections." 23 On page 31, it says: 24 "Of the percentage estimated to be resident 25 in the Northwest Territories, one half

1 (1/2) are likely to be recruited from 2 outside the NWT, given the current 3 challenging labour force supply shortage." 4 How do you reconcile those two (2) statements, 5 Mr. Swiderski? On one (1) hand, you seem to be saying 6 there's enough, and two (2) pages later, you say there's a 7 shortage? 8 MR. ANDY SWIDERSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, 9 Andy Swiderski. The -- the approach that -- that was taken 10 towards the regional labour market analysis was a very 11 conservative one (1). 12 What was tabled, Mr. Chairman, was basically a 13 numerical analysis. The -- the practical reality is that 14 while the numbers and bodies numerically are there, there -- 15 there will always be some -- some sense of -- of maximizing 16 recruitment, and retention. 17 Just because we have bodies, does not -- does 18 not necessarily translate into everybody wanting to work in 19 this type of industry, or allied industries. 20 So, it's -- it's an attempt to try and 21 communicate that while the numbers are there, it is -- it is 22 not to be taken for granted, which again, is part of the 23 strategy to -- to have ancillary training, and human resource 24 development programs. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir. Mr.

1 McConnell, could you provide the Board with a prediction of 2 the -- the dollar value, and the percentage of total contract 3 spending by De Beers that they propose to do in the Northwest 4 Territories for construction operation and closure phases? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: This question, by the way, 9 is a follow-up to your written response, that you would 10 provide that information at the Hearing. 11 MR. JOHN McCONNELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 12 In our EA, we committed to maximizing purchasing goods and 13 services -- services that, you know, can be reasonably, and 14 competitively sourced in the NWT. 15 Now, our projections are that during 16 construction, those -- those dollar values will be 17 approximately 35 to 45 percent of the projected construction 18 costs. 19 And, during the operations phase, those 20 numbers would be between 50 and 60 percent of the annual 21 operating costs. 22 Now, we think one (1) of the advantages of a 23 third diamond mine is that it does bring more business to the 24 NWT, because now with three (3) operating diamond mines in 25 the area, it makes more sense for some of the smaller

1 contracting outfits to relocate here. 2 So, those numbers could increase over the life 3 of the mine, and certainly, you know, we will be making every 4 effort to increase that through a number of avenues, 5 including having a resident business development manager that 6 is there, not only to communicate what the opportunities are 7 with De Beers, but to be there to assist, particularly 8 Aboriginal companies in, you know, how to bid on contracts, 9 how to put business plans together, so that they're 10 encouraged to participate in the business opportunities 11 provided by the ongoing operation. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir. Could you 13 give us a dollar value for those two (2) numbers, and with 14 the understanding that it's a prediction. 15 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: The -- it'll be -- that 16 percentage will be in relation to, during construction, 269 17 million, operations, 120 million, annually. And at closure, 18 25 to 35 million annually. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir. And I only 20 have one (1) final question before we proceed to Yellowknives 21 Dene. I'm somewhat surprised nobody asked it, but I will. 22 Could you please state for the record, De 23 Beers position on the supply of rough diamonds to the 24 Northwest Territories market? 25 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: John McConnell with De

1 Beers. During the technical sessions we made the commitment 2 to try and work with the GNWT to come up with a facility for 3 the provision of rough, to one (1) or more NWT cutters and 4 polishers. So that commitment stands. And we're presently 5 working with the GNWT to sign an agreement with that regard. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir. We'll now 7 move on to the Yellowknives Dene First Nation. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MS. RACHEL CRAPEAU: My name is Rachel 12 Crapeau, Manager of Land Environment Program for the 13 Yellowknives Dene First Nation. 14 I approached our Health and Social Services 15 Development Program at the Yellowknives Dene First Nation in 16 November and December, during the technical sessions, and 17 asked them to put together a paper towards the Public 18 Hearing. And they did put something together. 19 Also, from the Land Environment office, we 20 provided information to the Board regarding our comments on 21 health and social impacts. And therefore, we're going to 22 start with Tim Byers, whose going to present our Land 23 Environment issues. 24 With me at the table I have Sharon Thomas, she 25 works with our Health and Social Program. And with her,

1 beside her, is Celine Charlo, she works with the Health and 2 Social Program by dealing with the cultural issues for the 3 community. 4 She helps young people and older people go out 5 on the land and -- and provide cultural activities, learning, 6 training in that -- in those areas. And that's Celine's part 7 of the work. 8 The other person for our community is Alice 9 Abel, who is a counsellor. And she worked at the Nachiseque 10 (phonetic) Centre in Hay River in the past. And we're happy 11 to have her working with our First Nation because she's a 12 member of our First Nation. And I remember growing up with 13 her in Wool Bay. 14 And she's worked and helped a lot of the 15 people in our communities, counselling services and she's 16 been facilitating and implementing and helping the young 17 people get help, over the years. 18 So we'll start off with Tim Byers and then 19 we'll go to our report that we -- we prepared for you, today. 20 And I passed around to you and put it in your table. Thank 21 you. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms. Crapeau. 23 Mr. Byers...? 24 MR. TIM BYERS: Tim Byers for Yellowknives 25 Dene. The Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act

1 provision 115(b) calls for the protection of not only the 2 economy of northerners but also their social and cultural 3 well being. 4 Employment training and social programs are 5 important benefits to the Yellowknives Dene from development 6 but just as important are the safeguarding of the present 7 quality of life in our communities. 8 Yellowknives Dene relatively -- their 9 relatively peaceful existence and community values could come 10 under indirect pressure from the same development that 11 contributes to the local economy. 12 An important factor in this proposed mine that 13 could possibly impact Yellowknives Dene quality of life is 14 uncontrolled migration of many more people into Akaitcho 15 lands. 16 The GNWT wants De Beers to encourage southern 17 employees to remain in the north and I would refer you to the 18 GNWT technical report of February 2003 on that. This 19 technical report of the GNWT's also quoted from the Bureau of 20 Statistics' predictions that the NWT will require a total of 21 about fourteen hundred and sixty-eight (1468) new houses or 22 apartments by the year 2008, just five (5) years from now. 23 There is no estimate provided of what 24 percentage of these housing units will be in Yellowknife and 25 area. However, if we consider that about two-thirds of these

1 homes would be needed in Yellowknife, given De Beers 2 examination of GNWT and Stats Canada's data that shows 3 Yellowknife received 60 percent of all migration into the NWT 4 in recent years, then housing would be needed for about nine 5 hundred and eighty (980) more families than presently live 6 here. 7 De Beers predicts that their contribution to 8 this total immigration will be 10 percent. So, in other 9 words, ninety (90) to one hundred and five (105) new jobs 10 during operation will be taken by people who migrate into 11 Yellowknife and subsequently live here. 12 De Beers also anticipates significant 13 immigration into the Northwest Territories and I quote 14 "The GNWT may receive $84.5 million from 15 per capita funding through increased 16 population from migration into the NWT over 17 the life of the Snap Lake Diamond Project." 18 Cumulative social impacts contributed by this 19 development and others have not been adequately evaluated. 20 The foreseeable negative impacts on Akaitcho lands and 21 communities from immigration of many new workers and their 22 families are unknown. 23 We know that increasing population, especially 24 within a short time period, being new land use challenges. 25 We would assume, for instance, that many or most new

1 residents into the area will have or soon acquire their own 2 snowmobiles. Most, as well, may want to hunt. 3 So, will the land and wildlife in Akaitcho 4 areas be able to withstand the added pressures of increased 5 snowmobile traffic on existing trails or will new trails have 6 to be created? Will there be increased hunting pressure from 7 numerous additional hunters on our lands? 8 There's anxiety based on previous experiences 9 over some social pressures arising from a larger workforce 10 entering the communities. Some Aboriginal people from other 11 northern communities who will work at Snap Lake may not feel 12 entirely comfortable in Yellowknife due to its size or 13 cultural differences. 14 Consequently, these workers may go to smaller 15 nearby communities of N'Dilo and Dettah to spend all or part 16 of their time off. Since these communities lack the 17 resources to accommodate many new visitors, there is pressure 18 to house these people in -- in community homes. This can 19 create certain strains for community members. 20 Thus, we strongly recommend that De Beers 21 investigate A, whether Aboriginal communities have the 22 ability and infrastructure needed to absorb an influx of new 23 residents, and B, whether an increase in the local human 24 population will put any new pressures on the land's renewable 25 resources, and wildlife.

1 Yellowknives Dene cannot support the 2 construction of Snap Lake project before these cumulative 3 effects on the communities are assessed. 4 In the realm of increasing income gaps between 5 rich and poor, one (1) cumulative impact of big developments 6 like mines, is that the sudden larger incomes of mine 7 employees cannot be shared by everyone in the community. 8 This results in a larger gap between rich and 9 poor families. During the economic boom times, the people 10 who aren't receiving the higher incomes will suffer 11 economically, due to inflation of the cost of goods and 12 services that only the people with good paying jobs may be 13 able to afford. 14 This is not a problem that is unique to the 15 north. Widening gaps between rich and poor are experienced 16 wherever there are new sources of high incomes that only part 17 of the population can benefit from. 18 And finally, from my portion of our 19 presentation, the disruption of education. Another impact 20 from the mines is that young people feel increased pressure 21 to leave school and get a job with the mine, rather than 22 completing their education. 23 Intelligent and talented young people who 24 could follow such career paths, as medicine, biology, social 25 work, law, these young people will often be lured away from

1 the dreams of college by big money offered by mines. 2 So, once all the mines have shut down, will 3 the people trained in the new mining technology, they seem to 4 have two (2) choices awaiting them. Either continue their 5 education where they left off before their mining career, or 6 leave the NWT to pursue mining jobs elsewhere once these 7 mines shut down. 8 Thank you very much for your time. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. Crapeau...? 10 MS. RACHEL CRAPEAU: This paper was put 11 together by Health and Social Development Program for 12 communities. 13 In our paper, in the needs assessment, the 14 Yellowknives Dene First Nations members and leaders are 15 concerned about the impacts the mines have had on the health 16 of its members working at the mines, and their families. 17 The Yellowknives Dene First Nations population 18 is approximately at eleven hundred (1100) members, and the 19 social issues in these communities are many, and include the 20 following. 21 In my paper, I've got a list of twenty-one 22 (21) items, starting with financial problems, unemployment, 23 gambling, drugs and alcohol problems, family violence, mental 24 health issues, child abuse and neglect, lack of affordable 25 housing, high STD rates, criminal activity and violent

1 crimes, high level of suicide ideation, issues on residential 2 schools, loss of culture and language, grief and loss issues 3 with FAS/FAE and NAS/NAE, child witnessing violence, 4 dysfunctional relationships, teen drop-outs at schools, 5 sexual assault and abuse in -- and incest, teen pregnancies, 6 and homelessness. 7 These are items that we identified as items 8 that needed work, but the diamond mines, you know, although 9 they provide employment for many of our members, have led to 10 exacerbation of many of these social problems. And we're 11 talking about other mines in the past too. 12 Members now have access to large sums of 13 money, but in most cases, not -- they are not educated in 14 financial planning. 15 Large amount of money are avail -- readily 16 available, and some of our members have serious problem, not 17 only with alcohol, but other easily accessible illegal drugs, 18 such as cocaine, crack, and other addictive narcotics. 19 Gambling is also a major problem with our 20 members. There is no intervention available for those 21 members who have a gambling addiction. 22 This area for counseling is seriously under- 23 funded, and this paper addresses the need for those members 24 who need counseling and treatment in this area. 25 The increased alcohol and drug use, the

1 increased gambling, and the two (2) week schedules of being 2 in and out of the communities can -- can negatively effect 3 spousal and family relationships. 4 The increased workload for the family member 5 not working at the mines has, in many cases, led to 6 frustration and fatigue for the spouse. 7 When the working spouse returns to the home, 8 dramatic shifts are required in the dy -- in the dynamics of 9 the family. 10 Many of our members have a difficult time 11 adjusting to these necessary changes. And in some cases, 12 this results in increased family violence, and abuse of 13 alcohol and other drugs. 14 This interruption also results in the loss of 15 culture and language, if there is no concerted effort to 16 maintain these when they return home. 17 Other problems created by employment at the 18 mines include daycare arrangements, especially if both 19 parents work at the mine, or children are in the care of a 20 single parent who works at the mines. 21 According to Les Harrison, some of the 22 children in care with Health and Social Services are placed 23 in care, this because of lack of daycare planning and 24 provisions. 25 In summary, it is our belief that in order for

1 people to heal, they need to reconnect with their culture, 2 and heal from their wounds from within. 3 Many people drink to escape their feelings of 4 shame, inadequacy, and guilt. The most difficult aspect of 5 programming is to convince the people in need to access 6 services that are available. 7 Providing counseling services in N'Dilo and 8 Dettah, and at the mine sites, would allow far more 9 integrated approach with referral services to other agencies 10 and organizations located in Yellowknife. 11 On the land, healing and treatment programs 12 have been shown to be effective, and would allow for 13 integration of services in a culturally relevant environment. 14 In the last few years, our statistics have 15 shown an increase in the number of people utilizing our 16 services. 17 It is our belief that our members are more 18 likely to benefit from services provide -- provided in a 19 culturally appropriate set -- setting. 20 It is our goal to provide, safe, responsive, 21 and relevant programs in order to the meet the needs of the 22 Yellowknives Dene First Nation members, including those 23 members effected by resource development. 24 Programs to target these -- those effected 25 people who work in the mining industry, need to be planned

1 and implemented included -- including on-site counselling and 2 support programs. 3 A lack of the resources has prevented us from 4 implementing these needed programs, and thus reaching this 5 target population. 6 It is our belief that we need to have 7 programs, including counselling programs, available in the 8 communities of N'Dilo, Dettah, and on-site at the mine so 9 that the Yellowknives Dene First Nation members and effected 10 people can be encouraged to access these services. 11 An integrated and adaptive approach. The 12 Yellowknives Dene First Nation Health and Social Development 13 program has provided health and social programs since 1994. 14 It has been obvious for a number of years that 15 the mining industry has negatively impacted our people. 16 Although the mines provide needed employment 17 opportunities, but many social and health programs occur due 18 to lack of -- lack of or poor financial planning and other 19 life skills, needing enhancement. 20 Other health and social programs already 21 existing in our communities lead to many of our members 22 lacking skills to either work at the mines or continue their 23 employment once hired on by the mines. 24 One (1) of the main issues our members in the 25 community, including those working at the mines are dealing

1 with, are issues related to family members who attended 2 residential schools. 3 Problems such as loss of culture and language 4 has resulted in a sense of belonging, which can result in 5 excessive alcohol and drug abuse, unemployment, relationship 6 and family problems, violence, abuse, homelessness, et 7 cetera. Cultural programs for re-establishing this feeling 8 of belonging should become a priority for all community 9 programs dealing with Aboriginal populations. 10 I think I made a typo. Anyway, our last and 11 final comment on this. Therefore, it is our belief the 12 Yellowknives Dene First Nation health and social development 13 program can be adaptive, creative and planned for counselling 14 services to be provided for the communities of N'Dilo, Dettah 15 and on site at the mine. 16 This is what I worked on until 2:30 last night 17 and I know there's some writing mistakes, but I think the 18 message is clear. That we can try and do some helpful 19 services and -- and be -- be there for our people who work in 20 the mines and for other people who we can help like we've 21 been doing. 22 And we did not have this kind of employment 23 assistance programming that we could provide for people in 24 the 1930's, '40's, during the years of Giant and Con Mines, 25 during the years of all the other mines in the past.

1 And therefore, we realize, I -- I believe, 2 now, that we could do something about the problems that we 3 know -- we seem to know a lot about. I also remember one (1) 4 Elder woman telling me that, we've been dealing with alcohol 5 problems ever since Giant Mine started, ever since people 6 started working in mines. 7 We -- we seem to know more about how to deal 8 with our young people who -- who are having problems and we 9 can talk to them and they'll listen to us because we are a 10 family, we are related. Even though a son is not my son, 11 he'll recognize me as an auntie and I could talk to the young 12 person and give words of advice. And just a few words might 13 turn the person around. 14 We now have people from the community working 15 in our health and social services program who probably could 16 do the same thing, today. We didn't have that kind of 17 program before. 18 And I remember being a young person in Grade 8 19 in St. Pat's (phonetic), one (1) year, thinking that this -- 20 alcohol problems that were affecting the families was not 21 something that I wanted to deal with all my life. But I used 22 to wonder, where does one (1) person go to, to talk to about 23 how to deal with these kinds of problems? 24 I never did know it back then, in -- in Grade 25 8, but I do know, now, that if I had a problem, I would have

1 to go to our counsellors at health and social program, and 2 they can direct me in the right place. 3 It's nice to know that we can help each other 4 this way, whereas before, the young person was at a loss and 5 didn't know where to turn to. But it's not all doom and 6 gloom and I believe that we can provide services and be 7 helpful. 8 And Sharon is here sitting with me to answer 9 questions. Also Alice is here as counsellor to answer 10 questions if you have any questions. And I'll leave it to 11 them. Thank you. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms. Crapeau. 13 Questions, Mr. McConnell...? 14 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: Just have one (1) 15 question for Rachel and her team, Mr. Chairman. You know, 16 Rachel's outlined a number of areas of negative impacts that 17 are also addressed in our Environmental Assessment. 18 I think programs related to these areas are 19 all the responsibility of GNWT and in our EA we've outlined 20 some areas where we think we can enhance these programs to 21 hopefully mitigate the negative impacts. 22 I guess my question for Rachel would be: You 23 know, what other areas, other than those outlined, would 24 Rachel and her team see De Beers being able to assist with? 25 I think we heard from the Elders last night

1 that we have to all work together to assist each other. So, 2 you know, we're looking at, you know, we've made a big deal 3 about partnering, it's kind of those opportunities we would 4 like to hear from Rachel. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. McConnell. 6 Ms. Crapeau...? 7 MS. RACHEL CRAPEAU: What we're looking at 8 and what we were talking about during the technical sessions 9 back in December was that all companies have available 10 counselling services through an employee assistance program. 11 We would like to be considered to do this type of work for 12 your company. 13 This way we could also be available in the 14 communities for the people who work for the mines to provide 15 that type of services. And I know that when I worked for CBC 16 a long time ago when people had problems there was employee 17 assistance program that one can access counselling services 18 through a type of program that the company offered. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. McConnell...? 20 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: No further questions. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Questions from 22 other Intervenors for Yellowknives Dene? Mr. O'Reilly...? 23 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Thank you, Mr. Wray. 24 Similar to the questions that -- the question I had yesterday 25 in terms of the timing of environmental agreements, I want to

1 ask the parties that are here that are likely to be involved 2 in the socio-economic agreements and perhaps impact and 3 benefit agreements if they have any views or positions on the 4 timing of those agreements? 5 Should they be completed before the close of 6 the public registration? Should they be completed before 7 construction starts and I'll ask the same question of all the 8 parties. I think it'll benefit the Board in terms of 9 formulating some of the recommendations you may have to make. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. Crapeau...? 11 MS. RACHEL CRAPEAU: The socio-economic 12 agreement, from my experience, it didn't matter if it was 13 done before construction -- by construction is fine. I would 14 rather not push it and try to have it done before May 24th. 15 Thank you. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Okay, if no 17 more questions, thank you very much, Ms. Crapeau. Oh, 18 Mr. Vaydik...? 19 MR. MIKE VAYDIK: Mike Vaydik, Northwest 20 Territories and Nunavut Chamber of Mines. My question is for 21 Rachel. 22 Your statement that mining has had a negative 23 effect on the Yellowknives Dene, I wonder in that statement 24 if you've taken into account mining's contribution to 25 community infrastructure in terms of the development of

1 roads, the barge system, the development of the hydro plant 2 that provides us with electricity from both Snare and the Con 3 Hydro? And the development of early community housing in 4 Yellowknife? 5 The very real contribution into community 6 recreation facilities, such as the fact that Giant Mine 7 contributed the lumber when Jerry (phonetic) Murphy Area 8 burned down. 9 So, I -- I just wonder if -- if you considered 10 those secondary impacts of the mining industry on community 11 infrastructure in -- in your community? Thank you. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. Crapeau...? 13 MS. RACHEL CRAPEAU: Thank you. I appreciate 14 these types of questions, because it makes community people 15 wonder about what good does a mine do for the Dene community. 16 We got our road to Dettah because our Chief, 17 the late former Chief, Joe Embry (phonetic), had a chance to 18 meet the Queen in 1969, or 1967, when she came to visit, and 19 I remember that visit very well, because my brother in-law, 20 the late Joe Tobie (phonetic) was the translator for him. 21 The Chief asked the Queen if they could make a 22 road to Dettah, for our community, and the white people who 23 were there did not want the Chief asking that kind of 24 question of the Queen, but the Queen allowed the question 25 anyways, and said that she would talk to the Chief about his

1 request. 2 After talking to Joe Embry, she said that she 3 was going to check into it, and look into a road for our 4 people in Dettah, because on windy days, if it was -- there 5 was an emergency, or anything, it would be really hard to 6 travel by boat to town. 7 People would be risking their life to drive 8 into Yellowknife for emergency help, and we only had an old- 9 fashioned type of -- really old bush radio for communication. 10 Sometimes that was not really working very 11 well, and we did have an emergency one (1) day in July when a 12 man fell down, and people didn't know what happened to him. 13 I -- I suppose he had a heart attack, but I 14 can remember either Alfred (phonetic) or Jonas Fishbone 15 (phonetic) back then, they said that they had to take a boat 16 out to cross the lake, and try and get to Dr. Stanton 17 (phonetic). 18 Because of things like this, Joe Embry asked 19 the Queen for help to get a road, and the Queen helped the 20 Chief, and we got our road. It was not because of the mines. 21 1971 was when we finally got power in our 22 communities. When Giant Mine started in the six (6) -- 23 thirties and forties, we didn't not get power to our 24 community then, so it was not a benefit. 25 And, the -- all the food and everything that

1 goes to the community here, we had access to eventually, but 2 also, building materials or anything from the mines, I don't 3 really believe we were presented with gifts from the mines, 4 with free lumber or anything. 5 All I remember is some people from our 6 community, where their dog teams providing wood to the mines, 7 because they needed fuel. They were burning wood, and they 8 did not make that much money for their one (1) cord of wood 9 back then. 10 And, my late teacher, who used to teach in St. 11 Pat's school, and she lived at Giant Mine, she said she 12 remembers meeting with hunters and trappers in the evening to 13 buy caribou meat and moose meat from the people, because the 14 mine company officials did not allow them to provide that 15 source of -- and nutritious diet for their families on the 16 mine site. 17 So, maybe -- maybe, some people make some 18 little bit of money back then too, but I don't think it was 19 really that much. 20 So, when we think about the benefit to our 21 communities over the years, that's why the Elders were 22 talking the way they did yesterday. 23 We didn't see a lot of it. Thank you. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any further 25 questions? Okay. If not, thank you very much, Ms. Crapeau,

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1 Ms. Thomas, and Ms. Able, and Ms. Charlo. 2 The next presentation, and we will -- it's 3 11:45. Mr. Vaydik, timing on your presentation; 20 minutes? 4 Okay. Well we'll do the NWT and Nunavut 5 Chamber of Mines presentation, and then we'll adjourn for 6 lunch, and then we'll come back after lunch for questions of 7 the Chamber, if there are any. Thank you. 8 MR. MIKE VAYDIK: Hi. Thank you. Thank you, 9 Mr. Chairman, and Members of the Board. I'm Mike Vaydik, the 10 general manager of the Northwest Territories and Nunavut 11 Chamber of Mines. 12 I was born in Yellowknife. I've worked in the 13 oil and gas, and mining exploration industry as a geological 14 technician. 15 Subsequent to that, I spent over twenty-five 16 (25) years in government in many departments. I've lived in 17 every region of the Northwest Territories and Nunavut. 18 I've been involved in construction projects, 19 regional planning, community management, and government 20 management and regional development, in that times. 21 For the last seven (7) years, I've been with 22 the Chamber of Mines, as the general manager. I should also 23 point out that I've served as a Chair of the Keewatin 24 (phonetic) Health Board. 25 And I've served many communities in -- in the

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1 Northwest Territories and Nunavut as a JP and coroner, over 2 the years. 3 The Chamber of Mines that I represent, 4 represents over six hundred (600) members who are involved in 5 producing, exploring for minerals, and supply and associated 6 consulting companies who serve that industry. And also, 7 prospectors and individuals who are interested in the mineral 8 industry of the Northwest Territories and Nunavut. 9 Today I'm not going to talk about Snap Lake, 10 I'm going to talk about what's been going on in our industry 11 for the last ten (10) years, or twelve (12) years, and try 12 and give you an idea of the incredible opportunity that's 13 been presented because of diamond mining, and how Aboriginal 14 communities, in particular, are participating. 15 The mining has been the mainstay of the 16 north's economy since the days of the fur trade. 17 MS. JEAN TEILLET: Excuse me, Mr. Chair. I 18 hate to interrupt, but we're having a translation on the 19 headset to Dogrib problem. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I'm sorry. 21 MR. MIKE VAYDIK: Am I -- am I going to fast? 22 MS. JEAN TEILLET: No, we're not getting you 23 at all. And -- oh, are we getting you now. We weren't 24 getting you at all in Dogrib, so... 25 MR. MIKE VAYDIK: Is it okay now?

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1 MS. JEAN TEILLET: Is it fixed now? Okay. 2 Thank you. I'm sorry to interrupt. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 4 MR. MIKE VAYDIK: Okay. Thank you. The -- 5 mining's contribution to the NWT's gross domestic product, 6 GDP, has varied between 25 to 35 percent, over the past few 7 years. 8 And we are currently experiencing the best GDP 9 that the NWT has ever experienced. Over $3 billion dollars, 10 according to the figures that I got on Monday, in real GDP. 11 For the first time in history, we are 12 approaching the GDP of a province. And even though it's only 13 PEI, we -- we're getting -- we're getting there. 14 So, what -- what does this mean, in terms of 15 the mining industry? The growth has been driven, by and 16 large, by the diamond mining sector over the past few years, 17 and by construction related to the diamond mining sector. 18 Those are reported separately, so, it's 19 important to know the -- the relationship as -- as mines were 20 constructed. 21 I'd like to just move on to what we found out 22 about the population when -- when this study was done. Over 23 the period 1990 to 2001, our population grew by 13 percent to 24 about 41,000. About 50 percent are Aboriginal persons. 25 The growth in the Aboriginal population

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1 parallels the total population growth in the Northwest 2 Territories. Now, one (1) is probably by -- by birth and one 3 (1) by -- in migration. But that was a bit surprising to 4 some people who read that statistic. 5 Another key statistic is the total number of 6 people from twenty-five (25) to forty-four (44) years old 7 grew by more than 50 percent. And that represents the gross 8 age range of people entering the labour force. So that's a 9 very key statistic. 10 What we found about is that 66 percent of our 11 population have completed high school and about half of the 12 1,400 students currently receiving funding for post-secondary 13 education are Aboriginal. So that's a -- an increase over 14 the past -- what's happened over the past. And currently, 6 15 percent of -- of our population work in the mining industry. 16 I wanted to draw one (1) conclusion from one 17 (1) community, about the impact of the new opportunities in 18 employment. In Rae-Edzo, four (4) years ago, there were 19 about three (3) people in post-secondary school. This year, 20 there are about a hundred and thirty (130) people in post- 21 secondary school from that community. 22 It's an incredible increase, any way you want 23 to measure it. And I place that -- I -- I credit that to 24 three (3) things. Community leadership, we have the Chief, 25 has been very vocal in telling his people that they need an

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1 education in order to participate fully in the modern 2 economy. 3 We also have an education system that is in 4 tune with the local community and seems to be fairly 5 responsive to its needs. And I think the third thing is that 6 there's now, among the young people in that community, a real 7 expectation that they can get a real job, and that's 8 important. 9 I know, Members of the Board, communities 10 we've lived in over the years, we -- we've been engaged in -- 11 in revolving door training, where we train people for 12 opportunities that don't materialize. And it's so much more 13 helpful when you can actually say, when a guy gets a 14 certificate, you get a job. And that's what we're 15 experiencing now. 16 I skipped a couple of slides because of the 17 time constraints. I wanted to focus a bit on 18 entrepreneurship. What -- what we're seeing is that, 19 communities are involved, now, at all stages of project 20 description and -- and implementation. 21 The communities demand and are getting 22 consultation at the very early exploration stage, during the 23 environmental assessment, as we're doing here, through the 24 mine development and operation, including ongoing 25 environmental and social impact monitoring, and through to

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1 closure and reclamation. 2 We believe that the key to this has been early 3 engagement and continuous engagement in consultation efforts. 4 And I think environmental agreements and environmental 5 agencies are -- are an example of that continuing commitment 6 to consult. 7 The other thing that we think has made -- made 8 a major impact on how mining companies and particularly 9 Aboriginal communities interact, is the fact that land claims 10 are settled in the main. There are three (3) claims settled 11 and three (3) on the way, agreements -- interim agreements 12 have been signed. 13 And that provides companies and the community 14 itself with some certainty over what the rules are, who the 15 landlord is and how you're expected to operate. 16 The other major change has been the 17 implementation of the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management 18 Act, and I don't have to tell the Board about that. But 19 that's a -- another key element of -- of Aboriginal 20 commitment to and involvement in our business. 21 Mining exploration generally in Canada, we've 22 been seen as a world leader in, and certainly have led 23 Canadian jurisdictions, in terms of exploration expenditures 24 over the past few years. 25 Most of that exploration expenditure has been

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1 for diamonds and that exploration results, in itself, whether 2 you find anything or not, it -- it implies benefits for 3 northern business, Aboriginal businesses in terms of supply 4 of services and -- and employment opportunities. 5 Just to give you one (1) example of that is 6 EKATI services. A local Aboriginal owned company. It 7 started out catering to about a twelve (12) man exploration 8 camp at the Diavik site. 9 That company has grown over several years to 10 now, at the peak of Diavik's construction, they provide a 11 catering service to about thirteen hundred (1300) people and 12 now at the operation phase they've scaled back to -- to five 13 hundred (500) people. 14 But you can imagine the impact of that kind of 15 volume of business to a small company. 16 They've learned a lot. They've -- they've 17 participated in a very real way in the development of that 18 project. 19 I wanted to talk a bit about sustainable 20 development because I know that's where we're all going. 21 This slide attempts to show the relationships between 22 communities, governments and industry that are so necessary 23 to bring sustainable development about. 24 The government really is the supporter of the 25 development. They have a mandate to develop people and

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1 provide for their needs and this can mean providing funds and 2 programs to support that development. 3 And one (1) of the very real ways that 4 government has supported some of our efforts is contribution 5 by, particularly DIAND and the Government of the Northwest 6 Territories into supporting our mine training committee which 7 is a group of industry, Aboriginal, government 8 representatives and the training institutions that have been 9 engaged in providing over three hundred (300) training 10 opportunities for northerners and I'll speak a little bit 11 more about that later. 12 Communities have become partners and 13 beneficiaries and facilitators of a lot of the activities in 14 communities. Again, the leadership shown in some communities 15 by -- by leadership to encourage people to participate in -- 16 in partnership agreements has been key to the success in that 17 area. 18 Industry -- industry brings a technical 19 background, experience and the investment to make mining 20 happen and it's a very key element of that. 21 What barriers did we face? As -- as you've 22 heard several times, the shift from traditional lifestyles to 23 a wage economy, very real problem of time away from community 24 and family, seasonal preferences related to subsistence 25 harvesting, unfamiliar workplaces and cultures, lack of

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1 necessary skills and experience and relevant training to mine 2 site work and little support or longer term incentive to take 3 on other than lower wage and lower skilled jobs. 4 What -- what we've found over the past while 5 is that Aboriginal communities have provided leadership and 6 vision, a local workforce, traditional knowledge and an 7 understanding of the land and resources and their capacity on 8 co-management boards. 9 Governments have provided funding and some 10 expertise, access to markets, GNWT has been developing 11 performance standards to assist us in developing training 12 programs. In some degrees, some scientific expertise and 13 transfer of best practices. 14 Industry has provided the technology and 15 experience, the capital investment and the business 16 experience at the mining business. 17 What we've found is that by engaging 18 communities as active participants, it has led to a shared 19 commitment to maximize those opportunities and benefits and 20 to support the development of business in individual 21 capacities. 22 And, in view of time, I'm going to skip this 23 next series. 24 Some of the key successes were early 25 engagement, open and on-going communication, monitoring

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1 committees to ensure transparency, credibility, and 2 understanding of our performance, the recruitment of 3 Aboriginal liaison officers, who -- who are on-site, and in 4 the communities, flexible employment benefits and programs. 5 These probably aren't as flexible as everybody 6 would like them, but there is, certainly, an attempt by 7 communities to -- or by mining companies to be as flexible as 8 possible in their shift scheduling, etc. 9 Numerous training and support programs. I 10 think anyone's who's visited the diamond mines would 11 understand immediately there's a considerable, on-going, on- 12 site effort to allow people, to encourage people to upgrade 13 their skills, not only for the job they have now, but so they 14 can progress through the -- through the -- the ranks, and -- 15 and become supervisors and managers. 16 There is cross-cultural training and 17 awareness, and this goes both ways, both for non-Aboriginal 18 people, and for Aboriginal people. This -- there is a major 19 shift between communities, and a -- and a work site -- a 20 remote work site. 21 And my conversations with counsellors at -- at 22 sites say that the most successful workers, are the people 23 who -- who understand that, and make that shift, who have 24 their family organized at home, so that -- that when they 25 leave, their family knows that the bills are paid, and -- and

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1 that they'll -- they'll be looked after, and the guy then, 2 can get up to the site, or the woman can get up to the site, 3 and perform well at the job, without worrying about what's 4 going home. 5 And, I know from -- from my talking to people 6 who've been involved in human resources, so it -- at remote 7 mine sites over many years, that they will tell you that over 8 90 percent of the people who quit the job at remote mine 9 sites, don't quit it over the job. They quit it over social 10 issues, and over the fact that they miss their home, or their 11 home misses them. 12 So, it is a major challenge, and it's one (1) 13 we're trying to deal with. We -- we -- in our mine training 14 curriculum, we try to build in, well, in fact, we do build 15 into every course, a life skills training component that 16 tells people what to expect on rotational work. 17 It tells them how to try and manage some of 18 those -- those issues, and be able to participate fully and 19 successfully in a -- in an on-site job. 20 I just wanted to -- to lay out some of the 21 results that have been achieved -- achieved. In 2001, 22 revenue from the EKATI Mine to northern Aboriginal business 23 increased to $105 million. That's $105 million that wasn't 24 around before EKATI came. 25 Ten (10) percent of -- up to 10 percent of

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1 diamond production from EKATI is purchased by local cutters 2 and polishers. Kete Whii, a Dogrib, Yellowknives Akaitcho 3 trucking joint venture hold a nine (9) year, three hundred 4 mil -- three (3) -- $30 million contract that's created at 5 least twenty (20) full time jobs. 6 Those long term contracts are -- are key too, 7 because it allows that join venture to capitalize it's 8 investment in equipment, and to sketch out a -- a long term 9 training plan for its staff. 10 The NSR employment solutions are -- a Rae 11 company has a contract for employee recruitment, so we're 12 seeing these companies get into some of the soft services. 13 It's not just driving trucks, and hauling -- hauling ore. 14 If we look at the Diavik � Diavik project, 15 when we did our report, almost half a billion dollars 16 representing 50 percent of the total expenditures was awarded 17 to Aboriginal join venture businesses. 18 EKATI services, the Yellowknives Dene join 19 venture holds a 5 million -- $4.6 million contract to supply 20 labour and materials, food and accommodation, and camp 21 management to Diavik. 22 Lac De Gras Constructors, an Inuit joint 23 venture, hold a $262 million contract for mine -- earth 24 works. 25 Tlicho Logistics, a Dogrib joint venture --

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1 sorry, I didn't -- I didn't change the slide. Thank you. 2 A Dogrib joint venture delivers freight to the 3 mine site, maintains the water treatment plan, and the 4 airstrip. 5 Several other joint venture companies -- I 6 wish I could say this, and I'll -- I'll probably be 7 corrected. A Lutsel K'e Dene company works on core sampling 8 and other engineering services, and North Slave Metis, 9 Metcon, has -- had a contract to install piping. 10 So, what we're seeing is that the resource 11 development, not only mining and mining exploration, but oil 12 and gas, forestry, hydro-electricity, transportation. 13 It -- the resource development is providing 14 opportunities in all this sector. 15 Aboriginal participation has incurred -- has 16 occurred, and is occurring in virtually every -- every facet 17 of -- of the mining business, contracting and employment, 18 joint venture businesses, training and skills development, 19 technology transfer, and long term commitments that have 20 enabled that to happen. 21 And long term information sharing, which is 22 allowed Aboriginal business to participate at a very low risk 23 because companies have been forthcoming with information 24 about the company's business. 25 Community benefits: stronger, more reliant

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1 people, increased resources in infrastructure, secure and 2 stable demand for the local workforce over the mine life, and 3 diverse skills and capacity within the community. 4 And I -- I tell this to -- to high school 5 classes that I meet with, is that the EKATI, or the Diavik 6 mine, in many ways is like your home community. 7 They need almost all the services that -- that 8 home community requires. So, any skill that you gain to work 9 on a mine site, will also help you in your home community. 10 Obviously the volume of jobs aren't there, but 11 the skills that you develop to work at a mine are 12 transferable. 13 And when you -- when you are trained, if 14 you're trained in a apprenticeship program, and you get your 15 red seal, you can work anywhere in Canada. And by -- by 16 extension, anywhere in the world. 17 We -- what our experience has been over the 18 past while, is that aboriginal business corporations are the 19 primary building blocks of the -- of the northern economy. 20 The training and skills of aboriginal people 21 continues to increase and diversify. Construction and 22 operating costs of the mines are well managed, and we hope 23 that -- that indicates that there will be successful 24 management of those projects, right out to completion and 25 closure.

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1 We believe that performance of the existing 2 operations against financial, environmental, social targets 3 has exceeded exp -- expectations. 4 And there are some important issues that have 5 been identified, and we've heard some of them today, but we 6 believe that those issues are being addressed in a 7 cooperative, open, and adaptive management style that 8 will -- will help us form the partnerships we need to deal 9 with those issues. 10 And one of the things that stands out, is that 11 Aboriginal people have demonstrated their willingness and 12 capacity to welcome the mining industry as partners in the 13 future of the Northwest Territories. 14 I wanted to -- no, I skipped a slide. It's 15 all right. I'll read it from my -- from my notes. I wanted 16 to -- to read into the record a quote from Joe -- Chief -- 17 Grand Chief Joe Rabesca, of the Dogrib Nation. 18 And this occurred about four (4) years ago at 19 a joint industry Aboriginal resource development forum, which 20 was attended by about sixty (60) people from Aboriginal 21 groups, from as far away as Baffin Region, and virtually 22 everyone in the Northwest Territories. 23 Chief Rabesca said: 24 "The future of our people depends on the 25 development of our resources and our land.

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1 More and more young people are becoming 2 better educated as time goes on, and we 3 can't expect them to have a good living off 4 trapping. We need to focus on developments 5 which have the opportunity to create long 6 term wealth for our people. We believe the 7 mining industry is one (1) of the ways that 8 we will do that, and we welcome future -- 9 future and -- and further participation by 10 De Beers." 11 I did want to speak, very briefly, about our 12 Mine Training Committee. I -- this committee is, as I say, a 13 fairly loose coalition of -- of people from the mining 14 industry, Aboriginal groups, training institutions. 15 And I wanted to indicate a few of our success 16 stories. We -- we embraced a set of principles, early on, 17 that we weren't going to train people to go onto future 18 training courses. We were going to train people for real 19 jobs in an industry. 20 So one (1) of our principles is that the 21 training programs are industry driven, that the industry 22 identifies what jobs are needed and sets up the training 23 programs with the institutions, so that people can access 24 those opportunities. 25 We've also tried to make our communities --

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1 our training programs community based as much as possible. 2 We've had training opportunities provided in communities 3 where people told us that we couldn't do it because there 4 weren't any facilities. 5 Well, it's amazing what you can do with a 6 little partnership and a little help. And if you go to the 7 Chief and say, look, we need a shop for six (6) weeks to put 8 on a course, is there any way you can help us? 9 And it's amazing, if you get the political 10 people involved at the community level, and they understand 11 that this is benefit to their people, it's amazing what you 12 can do. And we've had several success stories. 13 We've -- we've put things like modern welding 14 equipment on wheels so that we can take it around to 15 communities, instead of trying to build a shop in -- in one 16 (1) training centre and fly people into the training centres. 17 We've taken the -- the shop on the road, as it were. 18 We've -- the -- the other thing that I -- I 19 alluded to before, is that our -- our training programs are 20 based on job assurances. The assurance being that if you get 21 through this course, you have a reasonable expectation of 22 getting a job in a reasonable level of time. 23 And I -- I want to focus on just one (1). 24 This was a -- a mill operator training program that we held 25 in Fort Smith. We operated it much as a -- as a mine job, we

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  1  took people from as far away as Kugluktuk and Cambridge Bay,
  2  from all over -- from all over the Northwest Territories and
  3  we flew them into Fort Smith, two (2) weeks in, two (2) weeks
  4  out.  
  5                 And the educators at the time said, oh, you
  6  can't do that, because you'll -- and we tried to work them
  7  twelve (12) hours a day, too.  And everybody said, well, you
  8  can't learn for twelve (12) hours a day, it just won't work.
  9                 Well, we said, let me -- let us try it,
 10  because half of the day is practical, half of it's in the
 11  classroom.  So we want to try this.  What we found out is
 12  that, because we had two (2) weeks in and two (2) weeks out,
 13  the -- the students were competing against their cross-shift. 
 14  They were trying to do better than the guys that were on when
 15  they were off.
 16                 And we had guys in -- in the classroom at 6:30
 17  in the morning, working on projects, working on computer
 18  studies.  So interesting things happen if you just keep an
 19  open mind and -- and try some real partnerships.  
 20                 And we -- we think we've been very successful
 21  in trying to seize on those partnerships.   And -- and the
 22  mining industry has -- has responded extremely well, to
 23  trying to set up those. 
 24                 I should point out that we've done most of
 25  this with pilot funding from the Department of Indian

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1 Affairs. We now have a -- a strategic plan before HRDC 2 Canada which we hope to get ongoing multi-year funding for 3 this initiative, and we hope that we'll hear very soon that 4 we've been successful. 5 That concludes my remarks, thank you very 6 much. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. 8 Vaydik. We'll now take a break for lunch and we'll reconvene 9 at 1:30. Thank you. 10 11 --- Upon recessing at 12:15 p.m. 12 --- Upon resuming at 1:40 p.m. 13 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll get 15 underway now. 16 A little bit of housekeeping. Later on this 17 afternoon, Ms. Fratton, one (1) of the Board staff, will hand 18 out an updated list of exhibits. 19 Okay, we had -- we were at the question phase. 20 Any questions for the NWT and Nunavut Chamber of Mines. 21 Mr. McConnell...? 22 Any questions of a general nature from other 23 Intervenors for the NWT Chamber? 24 Okay. The next presentation that we have is 25 the North Slave Metis Nation, Ms. Johnson?

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1 Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, the North Slave 2 Metis Alliance. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 MS. KRIS JOHNSON: I have some copies of the 7 presentation for anybody who hasn't received one. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MS. KRIS JOHNSON: Good afternoon, my name is 12 Kris Johnson. I will presenting the socio-economic and 13 cultural issues that are still outstanding at the Snap Lake 14 Diamond Project for the North Slave Metis Alliance. 15 We will be examining these issues as they 16 relate to the questions the Board will be answering. Is the 17 development likely to have a significant adverse impact on 18 the NSMA community? Can the impacts be mitigated? Does the 19 development pose significant public concern? 20 The issues we'll be examining are, cultural 21 and heritage resources, facilitation and collection of 22 traditional knowledge, existing subsistence economy, North 23 Slave Metis economy, housing, mine production rate, 24 infrastructure, language use, resource use, spacial 25 boundaries, and cumulative effects.

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1 Cultural and heritage resources. De Beers has 2 not considered potential impacts of the project on Metis 3 archeological resources. The NSMA requested De Beers survey 4 the area for Metis historic sites and heritage resources. 5 De Beers has not consulted with the NSMA about 6 the impacts of the project on Metis cultural and heritage 7 resources. De Beers later committed to re-analyse 8 artifacts. Re-analysis has yet to be done. 9 Without this information, the NSMA cannot 10 assess or mitigate the impacts of the Snap Lake Diamond 11 Project on their culture and heritage resources. Without 12 this information, the Board cannot assess the impacts of the 13 Snap Lake Diamond Project on the NSMA cultural and heritage 14 resources. Thus the Board cannot approve the project until 15 the impacts on the North Slave Metis Alliance community can 16 be properly assessed and mitigated. 17 Facilitation and collection of North Slave 18 Metis Alliance traditional knowledge. De Beers has not 19 facilitated the collection of North Slave Metis traditional 20 knowledge to aid in understanding and mitigation of impacts. 21 The NSMA, in collaboration with Mackenzie 22 Valley Environmental Impact Review Board, identified the need 23 for an NSMA TK study. De Beers has had ample opportunity to 24 work with communities to incorporate TK, and they have not 25 fulfilled this commitment.

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1 Without this information, the North Slave 2 cannot adequately assess or mitigate the impacts of the Snap 3 Lake Diamond Project on their community. 4 Without this information, the Board cannot 5 assess the impacts of the Snap Lake Diamond Project on NSMA 6 community or the environment. 7 Thus the Board cannot approve the project 8 until it is fully assessed, using traditional knowledge to 9 ensure all impacts are mitigated. 10 De Beers did not make an effort to provide, 11 analyse, or monitor traditional land use, and subsistence 12 economy in the NSMA community. 13 The NSMA have a strong subsistence economy and 14 traditional land use they would like to see protected. And I 15 just have some figures here. Eighty-eight (88) percent of 16 the sampled NSMA reported participated in traditional land 17 use activities throughout a single year. 18 Forty-two (42) percent of the sample reported 19 spending over two (2) months on the land during a year, and 20 62 percent of the sample reported over one (1) month of land 21 use during a year. 22 And then I just have a graph here, at the end 23 of NSMA's reliance on their traditional economy, by 24 percentage of the community population. I'm not going to go 25 through all these graphs, just to cut down on time. They're

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1 there for your reference later. 2 In the De Beers EAR executive summary, it 3 states: 4 "Is unclear how opportunities and a wage 5 economy will affect traditional 6 lifestyles." 7 The impact of the wage based rotational work 8 schedules on subsistence economic activity is uncertain. 9 De Beers has not analysed, or tried to 10 understand the NSMA traditional economy, and its link to 11 community health and wellness. 12 De Beers provides no concrete plan on how to 13 work with the NSMA to ensure that its subsistence economy is 14 enhanced and protected from negative impacts. 15 Failure to understand the North -- the Metis 16 traditional economy could lead to impacts on cultural 17 survival, individual health, stresses on wage economy, and 18 social cohesion in the community. 19 Without this information, the North Slave 20 cannot assess, or mitigate the impact of the Snap Lake 21 Diamond Project on their community. 22 Without this information, the Board cannot 23 assess the impacts of the Snap Lake Diamond Project on the 24 North Slave Metis Community. 25 Thus the Board cannot approve the project

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1 until the impacts on the North Slave Metis Community can be 2 properly assessed and mitigated. 3 NSMA's economy. De Beers has not described 4 the North Slave Metis Alliance's existing economy, skills, 5 education levels and barriers to employment, and I just have 6 a graph here, that shows the difference between the 7 unemployment rates of Yellowknife and the affected 8 communities, and you can see the NSMA is far higher than 9 Yellowknife, so it can't be lumped in with the Yellowknife 10 data. 11 Why is this important? To ensure a 12 recruitment program is developed specific to the NSMA, thus 13 creating certainty over the numbers of members qualified for 14 employment. 15 To ensure training and education programs be 16 developed for members so they are skilled and qualified for 17 employment before trained southerners are sought for 18 employment. 19 To ensure a baseline of current employment 20 education and skill levels exist so changes in the baseline 21 economic conditions can be traced over time. 22 The NSMA requested De Beers conduct a survey 23 to identify who would be interested in working in underground 24 mining and then train them. De Beers committed comprehensive 25 recruitment and training programs are being developed.

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1 The NSMA informed De Beers many of our people 2 want to work for you, De Beers need a more aggressive 3 training program so we can compete with southerners. 4 Training should be started during, and as part 5 of the operation phase. Sorry, that should say, during 6 construction and planning, as part of the operation phase. 7 And then I have a graph here that shows the current education 8 levels for the sample of NSMA. Again, De Beers confirmed it 9 was developing recruitment and training programs. 10 De Beers has acknow -- acknowledged the NSMA's 11 concern expressed about youth becoming involved in the 12 project in terms of education, training and employment. 13 De Beers committed to work with the NSMA on 14 these education and training needs. And I have a graph here 15 that just shows what's summarized at the bottom here, that 16 20 per -- 26 percent of the NSMA membership is under the age 17 fifteen (15), and 28 percent of the NSMA membership is 18 between the ages of sixteen (16) and twenty-nine (29). 19 Two (2) years later, De Beers has not 20 described the existing wage economy, skills and barriers to 21 the employment of the NSMA. 22 De Beers has not surveyed members' skills, 23 education, and employment potential. Two (2) years of 24 potential training for NSMA members has been wasted. 25 The NSMA has provided De Beers with community

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1 based economic data. The data reveals the NSMA's economic 2 environment differs from other aboriginal communities. 3 Generic recruitment and training programs not 4 specific to the NSMA community, do not address these 5 fundamental differences. 6 Again, in De Beers EAR executive summary, it 7 states: 8 "De Beers recognizes that a key component 9 of priority hiring strategy is a training 10 program. De Beers will tailor training 11 programs to take advantage of employment 12 opportunities at Snap Lake." 13 Without community specific programs, the NSMA 14 cannot assess or mitigate the impact of the Snap Lake project 15 on their community. 16 Without this information, the Board cannot 17 assess the impact of the Snap Lake Diamond Project on the 18 NSMA community. 19 Thus the Board cannot provide -- approve the 20 project until the impacts on the NSMA community can be 21 properly assessed and mitigated. 22 NSMA housing. De Beers has not described the 23 NSMA's existing housing environments. There are chronic 24 housing shortages and high levels of overcrowding in 25 aboriginal communities.

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1 Housing conditions are linked to individual 2 and community health and wellness. Housing upgrades and more 3 housing units are required within affected communities. 4 Without this information, the NSMA cannot 5 assess or mitigate the impacts of the Snap Lake Diamond 6 projects on their community. 7 Without this information, the Board cannot 8 assess the impact of the Snap Lake Diamond Project on the 9 NSMA community. 10 And finally, the Board can not approve the 11 project until the impacts on the North Slave Metis Alliance 12 community can be properly assessed and mitigated. 13 Mine Production Rate: Any potential for De 14 Beers to change mine production rates during production 15 jeopardizes all predictions and mitigation measures in the 16 EAR. The NSM -- NSMA agree with Gartner Lee when they say 17 changes to the production rate have impacts on the mine life, 18 social economics of the project, and the proposed mine site 19 facilities. 20 The Board must set a non-negotiable mine 21 production rate, for if the mine production rate changes, all 22 predicted impacts and proposed mitigation measures are made 23 invalid. The production rate can not change at all without 24 further application. 25 NSMA Infrastructure: De Beers has not

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1 described the NSMA's existing infrastructure environment. 2 The NSMA represent an indigenous Metis community that 3 delivers services and holds the same governmental 4 responsibilities as other Aboriginal communities in the NWT. 5 Unlike other communities, the NSMA receive no core funding 6 from the government. 7 It is uncertain whether the NSMA will be able 8 to adapt to changes on the same plane as other communities 9 because it does not possess the same resources and 10 infrastructure. The impacts of the Snap Lake diamond project 11 can not be assessed until the impact benefit agreements, 12 socio-economic agreements and environmental agreements are 13 finalized. 14 Without this information, the North Slave 15 Metis can not assess or mitigate the impacts of the Snap Lake 16 diamond project on their community. Without this 17 information, the Board can not assess the impacts on the 18 Metis community, thus the Board can not approve the project 19 until the impacts on the North Slave Metis community can be 20 properly assessed and mitigated. 21 NSMA Language Use: De Beers reached no 22 conclusions about anticipated or possible changes to the 23 NSMA's use of their indigenous Metis language, Michief. 24 Michief is an endangered language in all Metis households 25 across Canada. Michief is well known and spoken by Metis

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1 elders. 2 The language is not being passed on to young 3 Metis generations. 15 percent of the sample of NSMA members 4 speak Michief. The majority of NSMA mem -- an -- NSMA 5 members indicated a strong desire to learn Michief. 6 Without this information, the NSMA can not 7 assess or mitigate the impacts of the Snap Lake diamond 8 project on their culture and their community. 9 Without this information the Board can not 10 assess the impacts of the Snap Lake diamond project on the 11 NSMA community. Thus the Board can not approve the project 12 until the impacts on the NSMA community can be properly 13 assessed and mitigated. 14 Resource Use, Spacial Boundaries and 15 Cumulative Effects: In the overview, the project milestones 16 and monitoring and management programs provided by De Beers 17 states traditional land use, no monitoring identified. 18 De Beers has not properly established the 19 maximum zone of influence of the Snap Lake Diamond Project on 20 Metis fisheries. There is evidence that the mine's 21 development will negatively affect Metis fisheries outside 22 the regional study area. 23 Negative impacts to the fisheries will result 24 in corresponding effects on Metis culture, land use, economy, 25 health, Aboriginal rights, and spiritual and cultural

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1 practices. 2 Without this information, the North Slave 3 Metis Alliance cannot assess or mitigate the impacts of the 4 Snap Lake Diamond Project on their community. Without this 5 information, the Board cannot assess the impact of the Snap 6 Lake Diamond Project on the NSMA community. 7 Thus, the Board cannot approve the project 8 until the impacts on the North Slave Metis community can be 9 properly assessed and mitigated. 10 What can be done in a further review to remove 11 the uncertainty surrounding the Snap Lake Diamond Project? 12 Cultural and heritage resources. De Beers 13 must re-analyse artifacts for Metis heritage in order for the 14 NSMA and the Mackenzie Valley Environmental Impact Review 15 Board to properly assess the impact of the Snap Lake Diamond 16 Project on Metis cultural and heritage resources. 17 Mine production rate. One (1) of the 18 conditions the Board has a responsibility to determine is the 19 scope of the project. The mine production rate has a 20 significant impact on the results of this EA. 21 The Board must impose a condition on approval, 22 that De Beers commit to the production rate as 3,000 TPD in 23 order to ensure a mine life of twenty-five (25) years. 24 Traditional knowledge. De Beers needs to 25 incorporate traditional knowledge into the development,

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1 monitoring and mitigation of the Snap Lake Diamond Project. 2 De Beers must implement its commitment to facilitate and fund 3 the NSMA's collection of traditional knowledge. 4 Traditional economy. De Beers needs to 5 conduct further analysis on available community data to 6 establish certainty that the wage economy will not negatively 7 impact the NSMA's traditional economy, social cohesion and 8 individual health and wellness. 9 De Beers possesses sufficient information on 10 the traditional activities of many Aboriginal Nations and now 11 must analyse it, predict impacts, propose mitigation measures 12 and establish monitoring protocols to assess the change in 13 Aboriginal economies over time. 14 NSMA economy. De Beers must survey the NSMA 15 for existing skills, education levels and employment 16 potential. De Beers must describe the existing wage economy, 17 skills and barriers to employment of the NSMA. 18 De Beers must develop community specific 19 recruitment and training programs that reflect the NSMA's 20 economic environment. 21 De Beers must use the NSMA's community-based 22 data to develop the necessary training, education, and 23 recruitment programs that meet the specific needs of the 24 community. 25 De Beers must work with the NSMA to ensure

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1 proper baseline data is in place and monitoring protocols are 2 developed before the project is approved, so that deviations 3 in the NSMA economic baseline can be traced over time and 4 mitigated, if necessary. 5 Housing. De Beers needs to work with the NSMA 6 to develop baseline data on the adequacy of housing and 7 levels of over-crowding in the community to determine what 8 adverse impacts on housing conditions will be, to monitor and 9 mitigate changes to the NSMA housing environment, to ensure 10 predictions about impacts on individual and community health 11 and wellness are possible. 12 For it to ensure -- yeah -- to ensure 13 predictions on impacts on individual community health and 14 wellness are possible. 15 NSMA infrastructure environments. De Beers 16 must subscribe the existing NSMA infrastructure environment, 17 determine how the capacity of the NSMA community can be 18 equalized to other communities to ensure the NSMA have the 19 same resilience and ability to adapt to change. 20 Inadequacies in infrastructure must be 21 mitigated. Impact benefit agreements, socio-economic 22 agreements, and environmental agreements must be finalized 23 before the Board can accurately assess the impacts of the 24 project on Aboriginal communities. 25 NSMA language use. De Beers must determine an

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1 an -- the anticipated and possible changes to the NSMA's use 2 of Michief as a result of the Snap Lake Diamond Project. 3 De Beers, and the NSMA must develop a Michief 4 language program as part of the De Beers mitigation 5 protocols. 6 Resource use, spatial boundaries, and 7 cumulative effects. De Beers must assess the resource use of 8 the NSMA. De Beers must determine the maximum zone of 9 influence of its workforce on local fisheries. 10 De Beers must determine the direct and 11 cumulative effects of the project's workforce on local 12 fisheries. 13 De Beers must develop mitigation measures with 14 the NSMA to reduce any impacts on Metis fisheries. Again, I 15 have a quote from the Interim Guide adopted by the MacKenzie 16 Valley Environmental Impact Review Board: 17 "It is only when a development's effects 18 are known and understood that it is 19 possible to determine and implement 20 effective mitigation measures and to make 21 an informed decision about supporting the 22 development." 23 Is there is significant public concern 24 regarding socio-economic and cultural issues? The following 25 organizations have documented outstanding socio-economic and

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1 cultural issues with the Snap Lake Diamond Project: 2 The North Slave Metis Alliance, Yellowknives 3 Dene First Nations, Northwest Territory Metis Nation, Lutsel 4 K'e Dene First Nation, Dogrib Treaty 11, Government of the 5 Northwest Territories. 6 Is the development likely to have a 7 significant adverse impact on the North Slave Metis Alliance 8 community? Yes. 9 Can the impacts be mitigated? No. Community 10 specific monitoring or mitigation has not been developed. 11 Does the development pose significant public concern? Yes. 12 Finally, again, where there's no sufficient 13 information to determine the impacts of a project on the 14 environment, the precautionary principle must be applied. 15 Thank you. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms. Johnson. 17 Questions? Mr. Johnstone...? 18 MR. ROBIN JOHNSTONE: De Beers Canada, Robin 19 Johnstone. The North Slave Metis raised concerns that their 20 document Can't live without work was not considered in the 21 EA. 22 De Beers has responded several times during 23 the information request process, but this information was 24 specifically included in the research for the Environmental 25 Assessment.

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1 In IR, 3.11.1, De Beers refers directly to the 2 concerns and recommendations included in Can't live without 3 work, and notes that many of those are addressed in whole or 4 in part by the Impact Management measures discussed in 5 Section 5.3.4 of the EA. 6 In fact, counting them up, approximately fifty 7 (50) of the eighty (80) recommendations around socio-economic 8 concerns are addressed. 9 What information does the North Slave Metis 10 have that supports their claim that it is not -- this 11 document is not being considered by De Beers in the 12 Environmental Assessment? 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. Johnson...? 14 MS. KRIS JOHNSON: Again, I'm going based on 15 information submitted by the North Slave Metis' experts, and 16 their request that that question be submitted to us in 17 writing, and we'll get back to you on that. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll note, for 19 the record that there was no answer. Thank you. 20 Additional questions? 21 Thank you very much, Ms. Johnson. 22 MS. KRIS JOHNSON: Thank you. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: We -- moving on, we now have 24 a presentation from the Dogrib Treaty 11 Council. 25 Ms. Teillet...?

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1 MS. JEAN TEILLET: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: And I note that this is not 3 a written presentation. 4 MS. JEAN TEILLET: No, it's -- it is not. 5 That's correct. We have no powerpoints, no slides, and no -- 6 but we do have a very important member of the Dogrib 7 community here. 8 One of the Elders, Dogrib Elders, Alexi 9 Arrowmaker, who is from Wekweti, which is one of the small 10 Dogrib communities, very much wishes to speak to the Board, 11 to the Government, and to the Proponent, about the social 12 economic effects that he sees in the small communities. 13 And Elder -- this Elder has been waiting for a 14 long time to say his words at this hearing. So, he's 15 going -- he's -- he's also aware that we're under time 16 constraints so he's going to make his comments brief, but he 17 has some things he wants you to hear. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms. Teillet. 19 Could you, for the record, identify the presenter? 20 MS. JEAN TEILLET: The presenter is Alexi 21 Arrowmaker. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good day, sir. 23 24 (THROUGH DOGRIB INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 25

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1 MR. ALEXI ARROWMAKER: Thank you. I would 2 like to also present some of my concerns at this public 3 hearing. When you -- when you're in a public meeting, you're 4 here to express concerns. We are not only speak -- we're not 5 only speaking for ourselves as an individual but we're 6 speaking on behalf of our people and our community which 7 wh -- where we come from. 8 So when you become an -- when you become an 9 elder, you don't always remember everything. Right now I am 10 over eighty (80) years old and I might just forget a few 11 things that I want to express. I'm not -- I don't have any 12 written presentation and so I'm -- I'm going to speak from 13 what I want to say. I don't want to -- 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 If you want to do -- if you want to do 18 something, you have to say what you -- what you want to say, 19 but a lot of people are kind of afraid to really express 20 their concerns, I think. 21 I've been involved in a lot of meetings for 22 the past thirty (30) year -- over thirty (30) years and -- 23 but I've been involved in a lot of meetings, even though I'm 24 -- I'm -- I don't read or write in English or understand or 25 speak English, but if you don't say anything or express your

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1 concern, nothing will be done or nothing will be changed. 2 So sometimes you're afraid to ex -- really ex 3 -- express your concerns about a lot of things that are 4 happening and then nothing will change if that happens. If 5 you -- if it's -- if you don't say what you want to say. 6 I want to be able to change some things but 7 I'm -- I'm not in any political position but I'm an elder and 8 I want to express my view as an elder. We don't have our 9 Chief at our meetings right now but at the end, it's going to 10 be the political leaders in our communities who are going to 11 make a decision on what happens with this project but we, as 12 elders, have to express our concerns and our views on this 13 project before it is developed. 14 So I want to talk about the social impacts on 15 this project and I'm very concerned about it. I'm also 16 concerned about the -- the government Social Services 17 program. Are they -- are they really helping the people in 18 the north? I will -- I will explain to you what I'm s -- 19 talking about. 20 It seems like they're not really -- they -- 21 they're not helping people. They're ac -- actually hindering 22 the people in the way that they're working with people. 23 We who come from small communities, it seems 24 like all the develop -- the -- the government is -- the 25 government -- the Social Services are helping the people in

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1 our communities to relocate into bigger communities or cities 2 like Yellowknife, and also people don't leave our communities 3 not only for the jobs, but they're here because of social 4 problems in the communities and Social Services helped them 5 to relocate into Yellowknife and live in -- in buildings like 6 this. 7 If I don't talk about the pro -- these 8 problems, nothing is going to be done about it. So -- but 9 we're supposed to be only talking about the environmental 10 effects. Wh -- in the past, we only talk about the -- the 11 land, the wildlife and the water but that's not only what it 12 -- the -- the mining development does not only affect those. 13 It also affects people and affects the 14 community family structures and social structures of the 15 community. 16 So when -- when there's a development such as 17 a mine like this, there's a lot of problems that go with it. 18 It's -- I want to say what I'm concerned about about this 19 development. 20 The mining companies should look at the people 21 that are going to be working in the mines, because the kind 22 of person that they hire, a person that is not -- does not 23 have drug and alcohol problems, who can hold onto their job. 24 And -- and if the family -- if a wife and 25 husband are also working for the mining companies, both

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1 working for a mining company, then who is going to take care 2 of their children? And if there's also marital problems 3 within that, because of the -- the work -- because of the 4 work that they -- that work, then what's going to happen to 5 the -- the community fabric -- of social fabric in the 6 community? 7 I think we have to also think about all those 8 kinds of social issues that we're faced with because of other 9 mining companies. If I was in a -- a -- if I was a leader, I 10 would look at those -- the drug and alcohol program that is 11 facing our people today because of the development. 12 This alcohol and drug problem is a big issue 13 in a community. And I think we should really deal with 14 those, but nobody wants to deal with it because -- and also 15 the government is kind of afraid to bring out all those kind 16 of issues that are -- that the people are dealing with. 17 And now they want the -- now the mining 18 companies want to develop this mine. But even the government 19 knows there's a lot of social problems and they don't want to 20 talk about those kinds of issues because they think that the 21 mining companies may not develop the mines if they -- if they 22 bring those kind of issues. 23 But we have to bring them up because we're not 24 the only communities that are dealing with those kind of 25 problems. There's a lot of problems because of this two (2)

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1 weeks in, two (2) weeks out, that the people are dealing with 2 in the communities. And there's a lot of problems -- family 3 problems because of that. 4 Today, our whole life is changing. We are now 5 living in the west -- more of a western society lifestyle. 6 And -- because now, that's the way it is. Most of the -- the 7 western lifestyle where a woman and -- and man, both husband 8 and wife work and their children go to school. And that's 9 how the native communities are now changing and it's not like 10 it was before. 11 So those are all the changes that's happening 12 in the communities. But what about if the family all work 13 for the communities, who is going to take care of their 14 families? Who is going to check up on the -- on the children 15 when they come home from after school to make sure that they 16 are going to school and they are -- they're being well cared 17 for? 18 That is not our lifestyle, but -- but today, 19 everybody wants to make money. So our whole lifestyle is 20 changing. So you guys are probably wondering what I'm 21 saying. We all are inter-related somehow, we all have to 22 live on this Earth together. 23 We can't live alone in our own societies 24 either. So we -- we want to be able to solve some of those 25 problems so that we can work together and live together.

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1 If I was -- if I was in a leadership -- a 2 leader, I would -- I would really take a -- a look at this 3 drug and alcohol issue which is facing a lot of communities 4 today. And if we do that, only then can we have harmony in a 5 community and with the mining companies. 6 But -- but now, it -- it seems like there's so 7 much problems and social services helping all the people to 8 re -- those kind of people with problems to relocate in 9 Yellowknife and live in a building like this. 10 So I'm -- I'm really -- I think that social -- 11 social services in the North is really not helping the 12 people, because they are separating the families and -- and 13 taking their children away from them. 14 But it's -- I have a family of my own, if you 15 want to be taken care of by social services, just sit there, 16 and you just -- or you don't do anything, you just let them 17 do all the work, and it's -- it seems like the -- the social 18 services program has disrupted a lot of people's lives -- 19 lives in the Dene communities, because of the way that they 20 have made the -- the people depend on them. 21 And so -- so today, I -- I really wanted to 22 talk about a lot of accumulative effects on the development, 23 but it's -- this is the last day, and some -- sometimes, that 24 -- there's a lot of other things to be said, but it's -- it's 25 -- the time -- we're limited with time today.

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1 But there's a lot of -- our Band Council and 2 Chiefs -- and maybe they don't agree with what I'm saying, 3 but these are my concerns from the development, and I'm 4 talking for my community, so I'm going to mention all of 5 these things that people really don't want to talk about. 6 I want -- I want to be able to make sure that 7 the -- the mining companies know these -- what kind of 8 affects it's having right now in a community, and the -- the 9 native people in the community want to work, but also want to 10 have a good family homes, and good families too, but this -- 11 drug and alcohol is really affecting the whole family 12 structure in the communities, which is my -- which is the 13 biggest concern that we have as Elders. 14 But we have to think -- we have to make these 15 tough decisions for our people in -- in the future, so that 16 our children's children can have -- can live a better life. 17 And not only for the mining companies, but for 18 the Government, and for the Aboriginal Government, and for 19 the mining companies so that we can have a better working 20 relationship in the future. 21 And -- but -- but we may not agree with 22 everything each other, but sometimes when you see the people 23 -- homeless people, or poor people, we feel sorry for them, 24 especially the -- the young children whose families are away 25 at work, and they're -- almost like they're on their own.

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1 We want to take -- and as soon as those social 2 services sees them, they should be able to help those kind of 3 people, but they're -- they're not doing it in the right way. 4 They're taking them away -- out of the 5 community, and replacing them, and putting another burden, 6 another problem into the bigger populated communities. 7 From Fort Smith to Inuvik, that -- that vast 8 area in the Mackenzie Valley, we all experience alcohol and 9 drug problems. Whoever is Government employees, if you can 10 plan and listen to the people, and observe what's happening 11 in the community, maybe you can make better decisions for the 12 community people. 13 There's times when we have to deal with 14 unexpected deaths as well, so you as Government employees 15 have to plan and -- and observe the communities so that if 16 there's any need of help in a community, I'm sure the people 17 will be very grateful for any kind of programs or -- or kind 18 of work that you can make the communities feel -- make a 19 healthy and well-being of the people. 20 So -- but if you do not look into these kinds 21 of problems, with alcohol, with all the money that's being 22 generated through employment, there'll be a lot more unhappy 23 people in the communities, as well as individuals will be 24 suffering from all this unnecessary stress. 25 Because you're going to be wrapping up the

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1 meeting soon, I needed to say something. I wanted a chance 2 to speak twice during this hearing, but I wasn't able to, and 3 I'm not speaking from any notes, but I'm talking to you 4 because I'm very concerned about my family, my immediate 5 family, my three (3) boys that live with me. 6 Because I feel saddened by some of their 7 inabilities to maybe -- maybe work. Maybe if it's 8 employment, we can -- we can't fix anything overnight, but we 9 need to be aware of what is it like out there. 10 If I was a leader, I would shut down all 11 alcoholism and drugs, but we can't control the drug problem, 12 but it's alcohol that we can't shut down. 13 For example, sometimes, like, if you look 14 around the community, why are the convenient stores open 'til 15 two o'clock in the morning? Is it necessary that, like, is 16 it because people are buying groceries at two o'clock in the 17 morning, that these kind of convenient stores are open? 18 Is it right to keep these kind of things like 19 this operating in -- in the community? That's all I have to 20 say for now. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, sir. 22 The next presentation is from the Government 23 of the Northwest Territories. And I believe there are two 24 (2) or three (3) presentations. Mr. More, do you want to 25 introduce your...?

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1 MR. GAVIN MORE: Gavin More, Government of the 2 Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, actually 3 we have five (5) speakers, and I'll just introduce them 4 briefly. They will speak through PowerPoint presentations. 5 The first speaker will be Cathy Praamsma, the 6 Assistant Deputy Min -- Minister with Health and Social 7 Services, followed by Lesley Allen, Assistant Deputy Minister 8 for Education Culture and Employment, followed by Martin 9 Irving, Diamond Project of RWED. Then Pietro DeBastiani, 10 Energy Secretary of RWED. And our last presentation will be 11 Dan Westman, Economic Planning of RWED. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MS. CATHY PRAAMSMA: Mr. Chair, we are ready 16 to proceed. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Go ahead. 18 MS. CATHY PRAAMSMA: Good afternoon. My name 19 is Cathy Praamsma, and I'm the assistant deputy minister for 20 the Department of Health and Social Services, in the 21 Government of the Northwest Territories. 22 My role today is to speak briefly to the 23 potential impacts of the Snap Lake Project on the people and 24 families in the impacted region. 25 Our view is consistent with the message given

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1 earlier in the week by the GNWT in our opening presentation 2 related to this proposed project. 3 The project has the potential to offer many 4 positive benefits to the people of the NWT, however, it is 5 anticipated that there will also be negative impacts on 6 family structure. I'll provide a bit of background in this 7 area and make comments on areas where we believe greater 8 certainty is required. 9 The GNWT has a direct responsibility to 10 maintain a healthy balance between industrial development and 11 social health and wellness. Joint efforts from government, 12 industry and communities are required to prepare for and to 13 mitigate these potential negative impacts. 14 This slide highlights possible areas for 15 negative impacts from industrial development projects. 16 Several regions of the NWT has seen a steady increase in the 17 development activity over the past few years with existing 18 diamond mines, as well as continued diamond and oil and gas 19 exploration. 20 In some communities, we have ser -- we have 21 observed increases in such areas as children in care, patient 22 visits at healthcare centres and utilization of family 23 violence shelters. De Beers has acknowledged in their 24 environmental assessment report that their proposed project 25 has the potential to result in similar social impacts.

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1 De Beers has proposed a number of measures to 2 offset the anticipated negative social impacts under the 3 headings of Sustainable Social Development, Substance Abuse 4 Prevention and Treatment, and Family Support Services. For 5 our part, the GNWT is fully prepared to establish joint 6 arrangements with communities and the proponent to prepare 7 for potential impacts on northern families. 8 The GNWT currently invests approximately 24 9 percent of its overall budget to providing health and social 10 services for the people of the Northwest Territories. We 11 have also launched two (2) major program initiatives directly 12 related to addressing the social impacts of development. 13 The first is a major review and changes to the 14 mental health and addiction services. This is a multi-year 15 project and will be a prime candidate for extension and 16 expansion through partnership. 17 We have all re -- also recently launched a 18 call for community-based wellness projects for impacted 19 communities. We agree that there is a need for partnership 20 and we are open to establishing partnerships with industry 21 and communities on these and other related projects. 22 We are committed to negotiating a socio- 23 economic agreement with De Beers to formalize these proposed 24 partnerships. We see this as a primary process in gaining 25 commitment from De Beers to mitigate potential impacts.

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1 To date, -- to date, De Beers has not yet 2 provided information as to what they will bring to these 3 partnerships, such as dollars, people and facilities nor has 4 De Beers stated explicitly what it expects in terms of 5 contribution from government and community partners. 6 To close, Mr. Chairman, we are seeking 7 certainty from the proponent to their commitment to share in 8 the responsibility for preparing for anticipated impacts. 9 We look forward to successful negotiation of a 10 full socio-economic agreement which includes details on how 11 the proponent will contribute their resources to these 12 efforts. And I'd like to turn this over to my colleague from 13 Education. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MS. LESLEY ALLEN: Good afternoon. I'm Lesley 18 Allen, assistant deputy minister for the Department of 19 Education, Culture and Employment. I'm going to speak with 20 you today about northern employment. As part of our mandate 21 to protect the interests and well-being of all the residents 22 of the NWT, we feel it's necessary for De Beers to address 23 northern employment up front through a socio-economic 24 agreement. 25 Employment Targets: As was mentioned by Doug

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1 Doan from the GNWT, on the first day of these Hearings, De 2 Beers must set employment targets. We were relieved, today, 3 to hear that they -- they have indicated that they will set 4 these targets, because we need certainty that northerners are 5 going to be hired. 6 We expect that these targets will be for the 7 contractors and subcontractors as well. This commitment 8 needs to be made to the socio-economic agreement process, to 9 ensure this project will provide benefit to the NWT. 10 NWT Labour Force. You've heard a lot and 11 you've seen a lot of statistics so I'm going to go through 12 this section fairly quickly. The information we have -- the 13 information we have is based on the NWT Bureau of Statistics, 14 2002. 15 There are approximately 42,000 in the 16 Northwest Territories. Of the total population, 29,400 are 17 working age fifteen (15) years and older, 21,000 are 18 employed. We are currently -- we currently have 7,100 19 residents not participating in the labour force. 20 Current labour force activity in the NWT shows 21 that the employment rates are high and the unemployment rates 22 are low. That being said, there are 1,300 unemployed persons 23 and 5,700 persons between the ages of fifteen (15) and sixty- 24 four (64), who are not currently in the workforce, that have 25 the potential to serve as an available workforce.

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1 Along with the population that is currently 2 not working every year, we have approximately two hundred and 3 sixty (260) Grade 12 graduates in the Northwest Territories. 4 This presents an invaluable opportunity to engage these 5 people in the world of work. 6 Now that there has been a commitment made 7 regarding employment targets, we will need to ensure that 8 there are mitigation measures in place as well. 9 Inclusion of all NWT communities. In order to 10 build capacity, De Beers needs to expand the catchment area. 11 De Beers will be recruiting staff from communities that are 12 already party of the Diavik and EKATI catchment area. 13 It is critical to expand the catchment area to 14 include other parts of the NWT, such as the Deh Cho and the 15 Sahtu. There are areas in the Northwest Territories that 16 experience high unemployment and could provide -- or could 17 prove to be a valuable source of potential employees. 18 In the primary communities, there are seven 19 hundred and ninety (790) employment insurance clients. And 20 of these seven hundred and ninety (790), three hundred and 21 twenty (320) have trades related experience. Employment 22 insurance clients are clients that have worked in the past 23 and are looking for work. 24 In our catchment communities, there are four 25 hundred and eighty (480) employment insurance clients. Two

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1 hundred and ten (210) of these have trades related 2 experience. From all of these regions, we can see that by 3 increasing the catchment area to the entire Northwest 4 Territories, we were able to increase the potential labour 5 pool. 6 Promoting the North. The Department of 7 Education, Culture, Employment will continue to work with 8 De Beers and the communities to ensure a strong partnership 9 is in place. We feel it's necessary to capture these details 10 and commitments through a socio-economic agreement. 11 Through training and employment, the human 12 resource capacity in the NWT will continue to rise. Workers 13 are needed in the communities as well at the mine sites. De 14 Beers has example -- has identified ten (10) apprenticeship 15 positions. We feel that this could be increased. 16 Both the catchment area and the slight -- fly 17 in sites will have to be expanded to achieve high levels of 18 northern employment. Both EKATI and Diavik have recognized 19 this and have adjusted their operations accordingly. 20 The cost of living in the NWT communities is a 21 major concern. Currently, many employers provide incentive 22 for people to live and work in the north. 23 In order to maximize northern employment, 24 De Beers needs to provide real incentives for employees to 25 remain in, or relocate to the NWT.

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1 Without these incentives, northerners may move 2 to southern locations, taking labour capacity, and project 3 benefits away from the Northwest Territories. 4 What needs -- what is needed from De Beers? 5 It is the conclusion of the Department of Education, Culture, 6 and Employment that the following is needed from De Beers: 7 employment commitments to ensure northern benefits; this has 8 been confirmed, but it needs to include the subcontractors 9 and the contracts. 10 Inclusion of all NWT communities, the 11 continuation of training efforts that lead to employment, the 12 promotion of the north as a place to live, and a certainty of 13 commitment through a socio-economic agreement. 14 Thank you. Now I would like to pass it over 15 to Martin Irving. 16 MR. MARTIN IRVING: Hello, my name is -- my 17 name is Martin Irving, and I'm the Director for Diamond 18 Projects for the Government of the Northwest Territories. 19 The Government of the Northwest Territories 20 believes that our diamond mining industry is more than just 21 finding and extracting precious gems from kimberlite ore. 22 We believe that a properly developed diamond 23 industry will also include secondary activities that create 24 wealth, jobs, and economic opportunities. 25 We believe that a secondary diamond industry

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1 -- that secondary diamond industry activities can, and should 2 be undertaken in the Northwest Territories. 3 To accomplish this goal, we recommend that De 4 Beers enter into a written MOU with the Government of the 5 Northwest Territories, to supply rough diamonds from Snap 6 Lake for cutting and polishing in the Northwest Territories. 7 We have benefitted already from the 8 development of a secondary diamond industry, resulting from 9 rough diamond supply from existing diamond mines. 10 A supply from the EKATI Diamond Mine has 11 created approximately one hundred (100) full time jobs in 12 three (3) factories. 13 This employment is nine (9) to five (5), five 14 (5) days a week. This means no fly-in, fly-out locations for 15 persons who prefer regular working and home life conditions. 16 The cutting and polishing factories have 17 developed a new export market for a unique NWT product, and 18 the direct impact on the NWT gross domestic product in 2001 19 from these three (3) factories was approximately $9 million a 20 year. 21 A supply from the Diavik Diamond Mine will add 22 further jobs, and economic benefits. The recently completed 23 Tiffany Factory alone has a capacity to employ seventy-five 24 (75) people. 25 De Beers has made express commitments within

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1 the environmental assessment process to support the 2 development of the NWT secondary diamond industry. 3 In its conformity report, De Beers committed 4 to establish a sorting and valuation facility in the 5 Northwest Territories, and in technical hearings, De Beers 6 made the clear commitment to make a supply of Snap Lake rough 7 diamonds available to manufacturers based in the Northwest 8 Territories through the socio-economic agreement process with 9 the Government of the Northwest Territories. 10 While work had started on a memorandum of 11 understanding as between De Beers and the GNWT, progress to 12 date has been slow. In addition, there have been statements 13 made that suggest De Beers may be reconsidering their 14 commitment to supply rough diamonds directly for 15 manufacturing in the Northwest Territories. 16 The GNWT requests the Board to require from De 17 Beers, confirmation of their commitment to establish a 18 sorting and valuation facility in the Northwest Territories 19 off mine site, creating employment opportunities for 20 Northerners in the sorting and valuation of rough diamonds, 21 and make a supply of Snap Lake rough diamonds available to 22 NWT based manufacturers to support the development of the 23 secondary industry through the GNWT socio-economic agreement 24 process. 25 Thank you, and I'll pass it off to Peitro.

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1 MR. PIETRO DEBASTIANI: My name is Pietro 2 Debastiani, I'm a policy advisor with the energy secretariat, 3 Department of Resources Wildlife and Economic Development. 4 The Energy Secretariat is developing a 5 comprehensive NWT energy strategy that addresses issues and 6 opportunities related to domestic industry and community 7 energy supply and demand, to the development of NWT energy 8 resources, and to the environmental sustainability of our 9 energy systems. 10 The proponent utilized the following factors 11 in evaluation the energy supply options for the mine site. 12 Prior experience, suitability, cost, and environmental 13 impact. 14 They concluded that diesel fuel was the most 15 appropriate energy form for use at the Snap Lake mine. The 16 GNWT is investigating all options to reduce fossil fuel used 17 in the NWT through energy efficiency, and the use of 18 renewable energy. 19 De Beers is proposing to use fossil fuels 20 imported from southern refiners at the proposed Snap Lake 21 mine. 22 Volumes of fuel for each use category at Snap 23 Lake are, 28 million litres per year for generating 24 electricity, which equates to about 80 gigawatt hours of 25 electricity production, 8 million litres per year for

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1 heating, and 4 million litres for transportation. Those 2 volumes for generation will increase over time. 3 The NWT has several developed rivers in the 4 Great Slave Lake basin, with the capacity to supply cost 5 effective electricity to new demand clients, such as De 6 Beers' Snap Lake mine. 7 Hydro-electricity is more environmentally 8 sustainable as an energy source, than non-renewable fossil 9 fuels. As well, the GNWT encourages De Beers to purchase low 10 sulphur diesel for all non-hydro energy requirements at the 11 mine site. The GNWT itself specifies low sulphur diesel in 12 all of its own fuel purchasing contracts. 13 Expansion of the NWT's hydro-electric 14 generation and transmission system, results in legacy 15 infrastructure, to serve future energy demand for NWT 16 communities, and the non-renewable resource sector. 17 This also provides sustainable business 18 opportunities for aboriginal businesses and other NWT 19 business interest. The positioning of cost effective hydro- 20 electricity transmission infrastructure in the Slave 21 Province, can improve prospects for a sustainable mining 22 industry in the NWT. 23 The GNWT, and the Government of Canada, are 24 committed to working with industry to address climate change, 25 and air pollution.

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1 Displacing fossil fuels with renewable energy 2 assists in reducing greenhouse gas emissions and other air 3 pollutants in the NWT. 4 And the provision of hydro-electricity will 5 provide protection from possible future increases in the 6 price of fossil fuels. 7 The NWT have hydro-electricity available to 8 meet growing domestic demand. Hydro expansion and 9 transmission options to Snap Lake are under consideration 10 from several sites. 11 The GNWT will move forward on hydro -- will 12 not move forward on any hydro-electric initiative without the 13 support of effected aboriginal interests in the NWT. 14 I'll pass it on to Dan Westman now. 15 MR. DAN WESTMAN: Hi, my name is Dan Westman. 16 I'm manager of Economic Planning and Resources Wildlife and 17 Economic Development. 18 I'd like to make a short presentation on 19 business and -- well, it's in four (4) parts. Overview of 20 economic growth and the GDP, impacts on business -- sorry 21 guys. 22 Some business challenges end up on one (1) 23 slide on observations and conclusions. Next slide. 24 This chart shows GDP growth, and GDP -- GDP 25 growth in NWT since our creation in 1999. The interesting

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1 point is that the construction industry accounted for the 2 vast majority of growth, followed by mining and oil and gas. 3 Construction is also closely associated with mining. 4 It was during this period that the Diavik 5 property was developed and BHP completed construction. We 6 can also see some significant growth in other sectors of the 7 economy, including trade, finance, professional services and 8 accommodation. 9 By contrast, government growth which is at the 10 top of the slide, increased very little. 11 This chart shows retail trade in the Northwest 12 Territories since our creation. As you can see from the 13 chart, it's been very strong. Retail fills the end of the 14 tier are -- are approximately $40 million per month now. 15 This compares to 24 to 25 million per month back in 1999. 16 Economic theory predicts a close correlation 17 between personal incomes and retail sales. We can see this 18 in this chart from where the arrows are shown up there from 19 that Christmas buying peak and it also is shown in the next 20 slide which talks about personal incomes in the NWT. 21 This slide shows, again, personal incomes by 22 month in NWT since we were created. If you can remember back 23 to the first slide, it shows that there's a close correlation 24 between the two (2) trends, as we would expect. 25 Labour income, now, in the NWT is

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1 approximately one hundred and thirty dollars ($130) per -- 2 $130 per month up from $83 million per month back in 1999 and 3 in fact, we're one of the richest provinces in Canada on a 4 per capita basis. 5 Not many people think of the wholesale 6 business being important in the NWT but, in fact, it's almost 7 half the size of retail trade. The thing to point out about 8 the wholesale trade industry in the NWT is it's closely 9 associated with mine resupply and the arrows up there show 10 the -- the peaks that happen during the winter road resupply 11 season and during that time of the year wholesale trade can 12 double in one month. 13 The Canadian Federation of Independent 14 Business just released results of their member survey of what 15 their members think is important to overall business 16 development in the NWT. Ninety percent of all the businesses 17 surveyed saw the diamond industry and oil and gas development 18 as being important to business success in the NWT. Tourism 19 is also shown as being significant. Next slide, please. 20 One issue we face, and it's been raised by 21 some presenters, is housing. Right now, our -- our vacancy 22 rate in Yellowknife is one-third (1/3) of 1 percent. We 23 don't have any official vacancy data for -- for other 24 communities but there's some anecdotal evidence that there's 25 a shortage in al -- in a lot of communities and even in

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1 places like Hay River. 2 Well, we'd like to consider from a business 3 perspective is that the development of two (2) mines, along 4 with exploration like companies like De Beers has created 5 large and ongoing benefits for NWT businesses and the 6 economy. Businesses see continuing growth as tied to 7 resource development. 8 In terms of direct impact, it should be 9 possible to purchase most goods and services in the NWT and 10 as was pointed out by De Beers. We now have three (3) -- or 11 possibly three (3) operational diamond mines. The employment 12 targets for business should be established within a socio- 13 economic agreement. 14 Aside from the direct impacts of mine 15 purchases, business development is closely associated with 16 NWT employment and income. Our conclusion is and as has been 17 stated today by De Beers, the employment targets should be 18 established in a socio-economic agreement. 19 One issue for business and employees is a 20 shortage of affordable housing. While this not an issue or 21 the sole responsibility of the mining industry, it is an 22 issue that needs to be addressed if NWT employment is going 23 to be maximized. 24 It is our conclusion that the GNWT and De 25 Beers should work together collaboratively through a socio-

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1 economic agreement to deal with some of the issues of housing 2 and that's it, Mr. Chairman. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Just prior to 7 going to questions of the GNWT, and somewhat related to the 8 GNWT presentation, Mr. McConnell had indicated that he had an 9 answer to the question posed by Mr. O'Reilly, this morning, 10 on the use of low sulphur fuel. 11 Mr. McConnell, do you think you could give us 12 that answer now, sir? Thank you. 13 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 14 I think the question was related to the type of fuel that we 15 had proposed using at Snap Lake. And I just needed to get a 16 clarification and the proper terminology. 17 But the fuel is a P-50, which is a low gel 18 point low sulphur fuel. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir. Questions 20 of the Government of the Northwest Territories? 21 Mr. McConnell...? 22 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: Many very cynical 23 questions come to mind, but I'm sure it's got something to do 24 with having sat here for five (5) days, so I think we'll 25 pass.

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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 2 Yellowknives Dene. Questions of the 3 Government of the Northwest Territories? 4 MR. TIM BYERS: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, 5 I'd like to, I guess, re-pose the question that I earlier 6 asked Andy Swiderski. 7 And that is, with increased incomes resulting 8 in reduced welfare payments, the benefit is supposed to be 9 freeing up of government money to put into -- which can then 10 be put back into social and education services in the 11 communities. 12 So I guess I would ask the GNWT, when these 13 monies are freed up, does the money go back into community 14 programs? Or is it put into general revenues? Thank you. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms. Allen...? 16 MS. LESLEY ALLEN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 17 Lesley Allen from the Northwest Territories, GNWT Government. 18 The answer to that question is -- is that we have done 19 increases in the last two (2) years, into the income support 20 programs. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Byers...? 22 MR. TIM BYERS: Yes, could you explain what 23 the income support programs are? 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. Allen...? 25 MS. LESLEY ALLEN: Thank you, Mr.

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1 Chairperson. Again, Lesley Allen, GNWT. The income support 2 program is a program that's based on need. And so people 3 bring their resources and then -- and then the needs are 4 examined in terms of the requirements or the expenditures on 5 a monthly basis and then those needs are topped up. 6 In our program, we have a number of smaller 7 programs with it. For example, we have the food, shelter and 8 clothing, as well as we have enhanced benefits related to 9 furniture, emergency and seasonal clothing. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Byers...? 11 MR. TIM BYERS: No further questions. Thank 12 you very much. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Byers. 14 INAC? 15 NWT and Nunavut Chamber of Mines? Mr. 16 Vaydik...? 17 MR. MIKE VAYDIK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I 18 just had one (1) comment about Ms. Allen's presentation. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is it a question or a 20 comment, Mike? Because -- 21 MR. MIKE VAYDIK: You only want questions? 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 23 MR. MIKE VAYDIK: Okay, I'll move -- I 24 won't -- I will move onto questions, then. 25 My questions regard the local cutting and

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1 polishing facilities that have now been operating for some 2 five (5) years. And I wonder if the government can report as 3 to what percent of EKATI production has actually been taken 4 up by the factories? 5 MR. MARTIN IRVING: Martin Irving from the 6 Government of the Northwest Territories. At this time, the 7 three (3) cutting factories purchasing approximately 4 8 percent by value of the EKATI Diamond production. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. Vaydik...? 10 MR. MIKE VAYDIK: Thank you. I wonder if Mr. 11 Irving could comment on the total value of subsidies to the 12 factories by the GNWT? 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Irving...? 14 MR. MARTIN IRVING: I -- I don't have a total 15 number with me at this point. We provide support programs to 16 the diamond businesses, the same as any other business in the 17 Northwest Territories. 18 The support is provided in training -- 19 training, wage subsidies, and training program through Aurora 20 College, and through the provision of loan guarantees. 21 But, there are no specific support programs 22 that are only open to the diamond industry. They are open to 23 all businesses. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. Vaydik...? 25 MR. MIKE VAYDIK: Thank you. This morning,

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1 the Government of the Northwest Territories asked De Beers 2 about their commitment to employment targets, and I -- I 3 wonder what the experience has been of the local cutting and 4 polishing factories. 5 Do they have targets for Aboriginal 6 employment? What are they, and are they -- those targets in 7 any way tied to the subsidies? 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. Irving...? 9 MR. MARTIN IRVING: Martin Irving, Government 10 of the Northwest Territories. As I said early -- the -- 11 earlier, that the funding support -- part of the funding 12 support provided to the factories is for training of 13 Northerners. 14 At the moment, 55 to 60 percent of the 15 workforce are Northerners, the rest are imported skilled 16 workers, working as trainers, and providing the necessary 17 skill and expertise for the industry to grow here. 18 There are no specific targets for the cutting 19 factories. There are, however, training plans that they 20 provided to the GNWT, and that are reviewed with the 21 factories and the Government of the Northwest Territories on 22 an on-going basis. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. Vaydik...? 24 MR. MIKE VAYDIK: Thank you. Just at lunch 25 hour, I read that there are now sixteen thousand (16,000)

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1 cutters in China. At the end of next year, there are 2 scheduled to be about twenty-one thousand (21,000) diamond 3 cutters in China, and I'm wondering if Mr. Irving could 4 comment on what possible effect that might have on the 5 ability of the Northwest Territories as a jurisdiction, 6 considering that we're a high-cost jurisdiction to compete in 7 that international marketplace? 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. Irving...? 9 MR. MARTIN IRVING: Martin Irving from the 10 Government of the Northwest Territories. Diamonds are cut 11 all around the world in numerous different jurisdictions. 12 Some of them are low wage environments, such 13 as China or India. Others are what you would consider higher 14 wage environments, such as Antwerp, Tel Aviv, New York, or 15 indeed, Northwest Territories. 16 The critical issue is what are the types of 17 diamonds that are -- you are cutting and polishing. It's the 18 value and type of the rough that you are cutting that 19 determines where -- where it is economic to be cut and 20 polished. 21 One (1) of the premises and principles that 22 the Government of the Northwest Territories has in this -- in 23 this approach with both BHP and Diavik, and hopefully, with 24 De Beers as well, is that the rough diamonds that are 25 provided are in -- in fact, economic to be cut and polished

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1 here in the Northwest Territories. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. Vaydik...? 3 MR. MIKE VAYDIK: I'm finished. Thank you. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. North Slave 5 Metis Alliance, questions for GNWT? DFO? 6 MS. KRIS JOHNSON: Sorry, I forgot to ask Ron 7 -- Ron Ball -- Balsillie has a few questions. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. 9 Balsillie...? 10 MR. RON BALSILLIE: Okay. How many people, 11 including contact as an income, consultants are currently 12 employed by De Beers directly on this project. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. That, sir, is 14 not a question that the GNWT could -- could answer. Sorry. 15 MR. RON BALSILLIE: Is there anyone in this 16 room that can answer that question? 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: There is, however, we're 18 not in the question phase of De Beers, we're in the question 19 phase of the GNWT, sir. 20 MR. RON BALSILLIE: Okay. Does the GNWT have 21 any responsibility for ensure that Aboriginals are employed? 22 Yes? No? Not sure? 23 MS. LESLEY ALLEN: Thank you, Mr. 24 Chairperson. It's Lesley Allen from the GNWT. Yes, we do. 25 We have an affirmative action policy.

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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. That relates, 2 though, to GNWT, not to De Beers Snap Lake Mine? 3 MS. LESLEY ALLEN: I'm Lesley Allen, GNWT. 4 Through the socio-economic agreement process, we are 5 encouraging first Aboriginal people and then Northeners. So 6 that's how I would answer the question. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So you -- when you 8 refer to affirmative action policy, you're talking about your 9 socio-economic monitoring agreement that you would negotiate 10 with the proponent, De Beers, correct? 11 MS. LESLEY ALLEN: Yes. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Balsillie. The -- yes, 13 the answer to your question is, yes, they have some role in 14 hiring at -- at De Beers. 15 MR. RON BALSILLIE: Thank you. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Dogrib Treaty 11? 20 Questions of the GNWT? 21 CARC? Mr. O'Reilly...? 22 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Thank you, Mr. Wray. 23 I'd like to ask the Government of the Northwest Territories 24 one (1) of my favourite questions on the timing of socio- 25 economic agreement and the memorandum of understanding on

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1 supply of rough diamonds, whether these should be in place 2 before the operation of the mine? Or whether they have any 3 other position on the timing? Thank you. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. Doan...? 5 MR. DOUG DOAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 6 We're quite surprised by that question. From the GNWT 7 perspective, we do -- we do see some -- some distinct 8 advantage in having an agreement concluded before the closure 9 of the Public Registry on May 28th. 10 But at the same time, we recognize that we are 11 working with a number of other parties, to -- to meet this 12 agreement, or to reach this agreement. We're sensitive to 13 the needs of the communities, so from our perspective, while 14 we would like it done as soon as possible, our view is that 15 it must be concluded by the 30th of June. Thank you. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. And just for 17 the record, the Public Registry closes on May 23rd. However, 18 as Mr. O'Rielly pointed out yesterday, Section 10 gives us 19 the ability to extend it. Thank you. 20 Mr. O'Reilly...? 21 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Thank you. Kevin 22 O'Reilly, CARC. I wanted to -- I asked this question of De 23 Beers this morning, in terms of one -- a couple of the charts 24 in Mr. Swiderski's presentation, showed declining social 25 assistance payments over a period of years in the primary

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1 communities. 2 And I'm wondering if the -- the Government of 3 the Northwest Territories can explain whether this -- what 4 the reason for this decline is. Is it because more people 5 are working? Or is it -- does the claw backs in the social 6 assistance payments have any role to play in this? Thank 7 you. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms. Allen...? 9 MS. LESLEY ALLEN: Thank you, Mr. 10 Chairperson. Lesley Allen, GNWT. Because more people are 11 working, because the economic growth in the Northwest 12 Territories is so robust, the number of people on income 13 assistance has gone down. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. 15 O'Reilly...? 16 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Thank you. Just for 17 clarification, then. Is it the policy of the Government of 18 the Northwest Territories to still claw back payments made to 19 individuals under impact benefit agreements from social 20 assistance? 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. Allen...? 22 MS. LESLEY ALLEN: Thank you, Mr. 23 Chairperson. Lesley Allen, GNWT. I'd like to just clarify. 24 What happens is, if somebody gets an IBA single payment to an 25 individual, and that person is on income assistance, then

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1 that income is taken into consideration. 2 So, if their needs are of certain amount, then 3 that is taken into consideration. Thank you. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms. Allen. Mr. 5 O'Reilly...? 6 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Thank you. Kevin 7 O'Reilly, CARC. That sounded like a yes to me, but I'll go 8 on. 9 I have a question about commitments in a 10 socio-economic agreement, and I was pleased to hear De Beers 11 this morning, make a commitment with regard to employment 12 targets in a socio-economic agreement. 13 But, are there other kinds of targets that the 14 Government of the Northwest Territories is looking for in a 15 socio-economic agreement, say, for instance, contracting, or 16 purchasing in the North? 17 Or, perhaps other targets, and if they could 18 explain that a little bit, that would be helpful. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. Doan...? 20 MR. DOUG DOAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 21 It's -- it's Doug Doan with Resources, Wildlife, and Economic 22 Development. 23 There's -- there are a number of areas where 24 we -- we believe that targets are -- are appropriate. One 25 (1) of them, of course, is employment. A second one (1)

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1 involves procurement. 2 We also believe that there should be targets 3 established for such things as the transfer of rough to help 4 out with secondary industry, and also with respect to 5 training. 6 There are other initiatives and items that we 7 believe would go within the socio-economic agreement that 8 might not have precise targets associated with them. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. 10 O'Reilly...? 11 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Thank you. Could the 12 Government of the Northwest Territories let us know whether 13 De Beers has made, or has made any commitments in any of 14 these other areas with regard to specific targets during the 15 negotiations to date? 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. Doan...? 17 MR. DOUG DOAN: Mr. Chairman, if I'm not 18 mistaken, De Beers has provided commitments earlier today, 19 both in terms of employment and procurement. 20 They have put numbers on the table, and I 21 believe their presentation dealing with training also 22 identified specific numbers for targets. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. 24 O'Reilly...? 25 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Thank you. Kevin

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1 O'Reilly with CARC. I just want to turn now to the 2 memorandum of understanding on the supply of rough diamonds. 3 There's a lot of variation in terms of the 4 size and type of rough diamonds, and I understood Mr. Irving 5 to say that you want to make sure that they get diamonds that 6 are economic here. 7 Are there any other sort of targets, or 8 considerations that they feel should be part of the MOU, and 9 that they'd like some direction from the -- or some 10 assistance with the Board, on specifying any of this in terms 11 of whether that -- the supply of rough should be one (1) of 12 mine, or size, type, so on. Thank you. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Doan...? 14 MR. DOUG DOAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The 15 GNWT is seeking targets for the supply of rough to our 16 manufacturing -- to a northern manufacturing industry. The 17 specifics and the -- the nature of the agreement is something 18 that we believe is yet to be negotiated in a memorandum of 19 understanding with the company. Thank you. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. O'Reilly...? 21 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Thank you. One (1) -- 22 one (1) further question. Will this -- I always like to ask 23 this question, but will this MOU action be a public document 24 when it's concluded. Thank you. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. Doan...?

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  1                       (BRIEF PAUSE)
  2  
  3                 MR. DOUG DOAN:   Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  The
  4  -- the last two (2) agreements, which were executed between
  5  the Government of the Northwest Territories and diamond mine
  6  operations were in fact, public documents.
  7                 In this particular instance of course, the
  8  agreement has not yet been negotiated, but we would expect
  9  that it would be a public document.  Thank you.
 10                 THE CHAIRPERSON:   Thank you.
 11                 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY:   Thanks.  Just a couple
 12  more questions.  The next one is for Mr. DeBastiani with
 13  regard to the energy profile of -- of the De Beers Snap Lake
 14  mine.  Can you let me know if there's any differences between
 15  the energy profile of this mine and, say, the other diamond
 16  mines and if that difference in energy profile might lend
 17  itself to alternative energy use in any way?
 18                 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY:  Thank you.
 19                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  All right.
 20                 MR. PIETRO DEBASTIANI:  Pietro DeBastiani,
 21  RWED energy secretariat.  In fact, the Snap Lake mine is a
 22  larger percentage user of electricity than the other mines. 
 23  I would imagine that's due to the fact that it's an
 24  underground operation and not a surface open-pit operation. 
 25  With the Diavik and EKATI about two-thirds (2/3), 66 percent

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1 of the fuel is used in transportation related activities 2 whereas that percentage is significantly lower at -- at the 3 De Be -- proposed De Beers Mine. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. 5 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Thank you. My last 6 question, then, is for -- in regards to the presentation from 7 Mr. Westman, I think. The -- the last slide that he used -- 8 the very last point was -- discussed the shortage of housing 9 in the Northwest Territories and I guess, in particular, in 10 Yellowknife. 11 And I noted earlier, I think, in one of the 12 other GNWT presentations that they were -- will -- would like 13 to encourage De Beers employees to -- that don't live in the 14 Northwest Territories to settle in the Northwest Territories. 15 I just find it a bit of a contrast that on one 16 hand, they want people to move here but there's a housing 17 problem and I guess I might slip on another hat that I wear 18 on occasion and ask what sort of specific assistance is the 19 government of the Northwest Territories prepared to give on 20 the issue of housing? 21 Are we talking about investing more money into 22 public housing or what sort of assistance they talking about 23 here? 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. Westman...? 25 MR. DAN WESTMAN: With regard to the issue of

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1 housing, we were kind of open to suggestions and you're right 2 about -- my presentation looked at things from an economic 3 and business impact. So, if we want people to work at the 4 mine and not everybody's going to be hired from the Northwest 5 Territories, the economic impacts are far greater if the 6 person is living up here than if they're commuting down to 7 Edmonton. 8 Housing is an issue that has to be dealt with. 9 We haven't been proscriptive, to date, on that. We have 10 looked at some options ourselves, one of them was cooperative 11 housing. In fact, we're thinking about sponsoring a 12 conference on that. That's not specifically what's in our 13 mandate housing but cooperatives are -- 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Westman. I 15 could suggest, Mr. O'Reilly, that the City do something with 16 paved-over parking lots in the downtown core which might help 17 the lot of us. However -- 18 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Well, thank you for that 19 suggestion. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: I'll take it back wearing 24 my -- another hat. I did want to -- 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Questions misdirected.

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1 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: It's always nice for me 2 to get questions once in a while, right? My colleague, Dr. 3 Montgomery, has one or two (2) questions. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Dr. Montgomery...? 5 MS. SHELAGH MONTGOMERY: One quick question 6 related to the first part of the presentation from GNWT 7 related more generally to the social -- social services -- 8 health and social services. 9 There were a number of significant points made 10 in that presentation about details that they felt were 11 lacking in the environmental assessment. For example, can 12 not evaluate effectiveness of proposal -- proposed mitigation 13 measures without much needed details. 14 I'm just wondering, would the GNWT find it 15 satisfactory that the EA process closed prior to having these 16 much needed details? 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. Doan...? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 MS. CATHY PRAAMSMA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 22 It's Cathy Praamsma from the Department of Health and Social 23 Services, GNWT. I think we would find it satisfactory if the 24 information came in prior to the decision making. 25 MS. SHELAGH MONTGOMERY: Okay.

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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess the follow up is 2 going to which decision because there's a number involved in 3 this process. We have the -- the phraseology for the last 4 three (3) or four (4) days has been prior to the close of the 5 Public Registry, prior to the regulatory process, or prior to 6 the beginning of construction, I guess are the three (3) time 7 frames I've been asked about. 8 MS. CATHY PRAAMSMA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 9 Cathy Praamsma for the GNWT. Prior to the regulatory 10 process. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. 12 O'Reilly...? Thank you. 13 Okay, Environment Canada? No? 14 Lutsel K'e Dene First Nation? Ms. 15 Catholique...? 16 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: Marci cho, Mr. 17 Chairperson. I will ask my question in Chipewyan. 18 19 (THROUGH CHIPEYWAN INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 20 21 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: The question -- the 22 question I would like to ask is to the Government of the NWT. 23 The way that they have, on Chart 3, it says about housing, we 24 have social problems and family stress within that -- the 25 question is, are you having community or -- is it about the

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1 community or just the whole NWT that you're talking about 2 when you say about socio-economic problems, here? 3 I asked of the family stress part of Slide 3 4 included housing? 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. Allen...? 6 Ms. Praamsma...? 7 MS. CATHY PRAAMSMA: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 8 Cathy Praamsma, Department of Health and Social Services. 9 The potential impact slide that the individual is referring 10 to, was around family stress, obviously having the lack of 11 housing or overcrowding would contribute to that. 12 13 (THROUGH CHIPEYWAN INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 14 15 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: And how about the 16 culture and language, is that included in that, also? 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. 18 Praamsma...? 19 MS. CATHY PRAAMSMA: Yes. Thank you, Mr. 20 Chairman. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. 22 Catholique...? 23 24 (THROUGH CHIPEYWAN INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 25

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1 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: So if the language 2 and culture is included, if we're going to have difficulty 3 with this in our -- in our communities, how come it's not in 4 that -- within the social health and wellness, when you talk 5 about with the education of the -- educational programs? 6 And about the hydro? And how -- and how 7 people would need -- more money would have problems? And how 8 come -- I was asking the question, is, how come they're 9 talking about culture and language, also? They never said 10 anything about those. 11 MR. DOUG DOAN: Mr. Chairman...? 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Doan...? 13 MR. DOUG DOAN: The issues that have been 14 raised are all very important issues and these are issues 15 I -- I responded to in earlier question about targets, by 16 that suggesting that in addition to the targets, there would 17 be a broad range of other issues that would be dealt with, 18 within the context of the socio-economic agreement. 19 The issues that have been raised are all 20 issues that the GNWT would wish to see addressed through the 21 socio-economic agreement, and the GNWT has made offers to 22 involve the Aboriginal parties in the development and 23 negotiation of that socio-economic agreement. Thank you. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. 25 Catholique...?

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1 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: Marci, Mr. 2 Chairman. Then, I want to know the composition of the -- the 3 groups that are sitting on -- at the socio-economic 4 negotiations in the -- the socio-economic negotiations? 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. Doan...? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MR. DEBORAH ARCHIBALD: Deborah Archibald 10 with the Government of the Northwest Territories. The 11 parties that are currently at the negotiating table are the 12 Government of the Northwest Territories, De Beers, the North 13 Slave Metis Alliance, the Lutsel K'e Dene First Nation, the 14 Dogrib, and the Yellowknives Dene. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. 16 Catholique...? 17 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: Marci, Mr. 18 Chairman, my question then is, why is the -- the Government 19 of Canada not sitting at this table? 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms. Archibald...? Mr. 21 Doan...? 22 MR. DOUG DOAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The 23 socio-economic issues, and the socially -- the subject of the 24 socio-economic agreements are generally responsibilities 25 which fall under the mandate of the Government of the

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1 Northwest Territories, and for that reason, the Government of 2 the Northwest Territories has led in this process. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. 4 Catholique...? 5 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: Sorry, my mind was 6 wandering there. Could you repeat that please? 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Doan...? 8 MR. DOUG DOAN: The subject matter, which is 9 dealt with in the socio-economic agreement responds to issues 10 and subjects which fall under the mandate of the Government 11 of the Northwest Territories. Thank you. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms. Catholique...? 13 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: Marci. Then I have 14 a question that has -- that relates to past experience then, 15 and we -- just so that the Board doesn't think that I'm 16 wandering off some more here. 17 Lutsel K'e has been involved in two (2) other 18 socio-economic agreements; one (1) was BHP, and also with the 19 -- the Diavik Diamond Mine. In both agreements, the 20 exclusion of the -- the Federal Government has affected the 21 implementation off of those agreements where we see increased 22 benefits of programs delivery in the communities and we -- we 23 do not see an increase, or a positive deliverance of those 24 programs within the community. 25 And, we think that the reason that is

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1 happening is that the -- the person that holds the purse is 2 not at that table, and -- and we know -- and we understand 3 that should there be any increase in the funding that's given 4 from the Federal Government to the GNWT, any amount doesn't 5 increase the level that they -- they rated, I guess is the 6 word. 7 And -- and so, our question is, how -- how 8 does it the GNWT perceive in increasing the -- the funding 9 requirements in the small communities, if that's -- if they 10 -- the funding from the Federal Government can't be 11 increased. 12 And, I saw this beautiful chart there now, and 13 every time I see monies, I go a little bit -- with money 14 signs in my eyes, and maybe that's why I can't really focus 15 very good. 16 And so, people that know me, they know that's 17 true, but show a whole bunch of charts, showing more 18 employment, more -- more revenue for the GNWT, doesn't mean 19 anything to us, because the funds, and the tax, the way that 20 it's set in the royalties, are all held in somewhere else. 21 And so, we're wondering, how will those -- how 22 will -- how does the GNWT perceive more additional funding to 23 be given to the smaller communities in their program 24 delivery? 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. Doan...?

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1 MR. DOUG DOAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I 2 think we share some of the sentiments that have been 3 expressed by Ms. Catholique. There is no question that the 4 distribution of benefits from development is not -- is not in 5 a particularly balanced fashion right now. The GNWT is 6 working on a process through the inter-governmental forum 7 which will deal with the issue of devolution and the issue of 8 resource revenue sharing. 9 The GNWT is strong advocating the federal 10 government to invest further resources with the GNWT so 11 program delivery can keep up to the needs that are brought 12 about by development and the final point I would make is that 13 notwithstanding the fact that the benefits are not 14 distributed in any proportionate manner. 15 There's -- nonetheless, there is an incentive 16 for the GNWT because there is, in fact, some benefit enjoyed 17 as a result of increased personal taxation, increased 18 corporate taxation, increased employment of NWT residents and 19 -- and the -- the benefits that that does entail. It is not 20 keeping pace with the demand for program delivery but there 21 is clearly benefit for the people of the NWT. Thank you. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. 23 Catholique...? 24 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: That's the only 25 question that I have, which was the money question but I

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1 think my -- Addie Jonasson who will be doing a presentation 2 later on behalf of the Lutsel K'e has a question. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 4 MS. ADDIE JONASSON: Thank you. I have one 5 (1) question and this is for the Department of Education, 6 Culture and Employment. Will they be exploring any training 7 program in the community relevant to the mining industry? 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. Allen...? 9 MS. LESLEY ALLEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. 10 I'm Lesley Allen, GNWT. Yes, we -- we mentioned in our 11 presentation that we would be working with the communities 12 and De Beers on developing a strong partnership relationship 13 related to training and education. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 15 MS. ADDIE JONASSON: Thank you but the 16 question was will they be doing the program in the 17 communities? 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms. Allen...? 19 MS. LESLEY ALLEN: Lesley Allen, GNWT. In 20 working with partnership, of course, where there are 21 facilities and where there are the instructor, they're -- 22 they will be done in the communities but we -- we're just 23 working that out right now with -- with the people that are 24 at the table with us related to the socio-economic agreements 25 and with De Beer.

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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms. Allen. 2 MS. ADDIE JONASSON: Thank you. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Okay, I have a 4 couple of questions before we take a break. Mr. Doan, in 5 presentation filed by -- by De Beers, it showed that net 6 revenues to the Federal Government over the life of the mine 7 are predicted to be $872 million. To the government of the 8 Northwest Territories, the revenue is predicted to be $35 9 million. 10 Now, this morning we saw a slide which changed 11 that net revenue number to 119 million but I think that's 12 predicated on the GNWT receiving about $84 million in per 13 capita transfers that would accrue with an increase of 14 immigration. Now, the 119 million obviously would be 15 somewhat cut down because with an increase in population is 16 an increase in schools, et cetera. 17 Anyway, the bottom line is that in either 18 scenario and I was going to say best and worst but there is 19 no best case scenario here for the north, the government of 20 the Northwest Territories would receive about 1.4 million a 21 year extra or under the scenario presented this morning, 22 approximately just under 5 million a year. 23 In either of those cases, is there anywhere 24 near sufficient to pay for or accommodate the increased cost 25 to the government of the Northwest Territories brought about

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1 by the development in the north? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: It should be a really easy 6 answer. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MR. DOUG DOAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 11 This is very much a -- a gross estimation because I can't -- 12 I can't answer with absolute integrity. But it would be our 13 considered view that that number would not come close to 14 covering the increased costs. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir. And I have 16 one (1) final question. Is it the position of the Government 17 of the Northwest Territories that De Beers Canada should 18 provide rough diamonds to the local cutting and polishing 19 industry, in the Northwest Territories, under the same terms 20 and conditions as currently done by other diamond mine 21 operators? 22 MR. DOUG DOAN: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to 23 refer that question to Martin Irving, please? 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Irving...? 25 MR. MARTIN IRVING: Martin Irving, Government

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1 of the Northwest Territories. Yes, that's our position, that 2 our policy on the provision of rough, applies to all diamond 3 mining companies in the Northwest Territories. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir. We'll now 5 take a short coffee break. And after the coffee break, we 6 will hear presentation by Lutsel K'e Dene First Nation. And 7 I also have notice of short presentations by Kurt von Hagen, 8 Superintendent of Yellowknife Catholic Schools, Bill Ange, 9 President of YK Metis Nation Local 66 and the NWT 10 Construction Association. Thank you. 11 12 --- Upon recessing at 3:42 p.m. 13 --- Upon resuming at 3:56 p.m. 14 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Just prior to 16 asking the delegation from Lutsel K'e to make their 17 presentation, I neglected to recognize Mr. O'Reilly. After 18 the Dogrib presentation he had a question. And I apologise, 19 Mr. O'Reilly. 20 Ms. Teillet, Mr. O'Reilly's question was, do 21 the Dogrib Treaty 11 have a position on the timing of IBA, or 22 environmental monitoring agreements? And when should they be 23 in place? 24 MS. JEAN TEILLET: Again, the Dogrib's note 25 that De Beers has committed to do these. And -- and Mr.

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1 McConnell's statement as to the progress that's been made 2 with the Dogrib's is quite accurate in terms of them being 3 preoccupied with the land claims agreement, at the moment. 4 But we do anticipate that to be over very 5 soon. Regardless, in terms of timing, we don't think that 6 it's possible to do these things before the close of the 7 Public Registry. Although we think that good progress can be 8 continued to be made on it, we'd liked hearing GNWT say June 9 30th, but we're not quite willing to put down a hard and fast 10 deadline on it. 11 So I think that we'd be more comfortable in 12 saying that it should be done before we get to the regulatory 13 stage, Mr. Chair. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms. 15 Teillet. Mr. Doan, I also -- I had written a question down 16 in front of myself, and I forgot to ask it. 17 Was there a reason for the June 30th date? Is 18 that a -- is that a target date or do you have a particular 19 reason for -- for that date? 20 MR. DOUG DOAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The 21 reason that we stated that date is that De Beers has made a 22 commitment, which is based on June, and we have made a 23 commitment of June. And the 30th of June is the -- the last 24 day of that month. Thank you. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir. We'll now

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1 move to Lutsel K'e presentation. Ms. Catholique, could you 2 introduce your presenters and then the Board will move down 3 to its table? 4 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: Good afternoon. I 5 have two (2) people presenting this afternoon on behalf of 6 the Lutsel K'e Dene First Nation. Gloria, who is at the 7 table, will be doing a presentation on information data that 8 we've collected on the impacts that we've had in regards to 9 the other two (2) developments. The -- the mining 10 development. 11 And then Addie will be doing a presentation on 12 the work that the program heads have put together, pulled 13 together this week, as to what we see should be done in 14 regards to the social and economic, and cultural issues. 15 Marci. Addie Jonasson, Gloria Enzoe. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. If just -- if 17 you give us just a minute here. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Go ahead. 22 MS. GLORIA ENZOE: Hi, I'm Gloria Enzoe, like 23 Florence Catholique has said. On the copies that are handed 24 out, there's a typo on your right side of the page, there's a 25 -- there's an example of our surveys.

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1 Those numbers on the side there are supposed 2 to go down one (1), two (2), one (1), two (2), three (3), 3 four (4), but they came out fifty-six (56) and thirty-four 4 (34) and stuff like that. 5 Okay, and they handouts that you have, they 6 are not in order, so can you just follow along? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MS. GLORIA ENZOE: The surveys that we were 11 recording on the part of the larger community health 12 monitoring project that begun in Lutsel K'e in 1996, the 13 study was fun -- funded by the West Kitikmeot Slave study 14 society. 15 Indicators were developed, based in 16 interviewees with each household in a community. The 17 qualitative and quantitative surveys were developed to 18 monitor many different kind of indicators about self- 19 government, healing, and cultural preservation. 20 The other people who had worked on this 21 project in the last seven (7) years are Angie Lantz, Evelyn 22 Marlowe, Dennis Drygeese and Brenda Parlee. 23 Dr. John O'Neil from the Aboriginal Centre of 24 Health Research at the University of Manitoba helped us 25 develop a -- this survey so that we could be confident about

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1 the way that we asked questions, and interpreting the 2 results; see attached community-based monitoring 3 questionnaire. 4 In addition to this larger health monitoring 5 questionnaire, we have done qualitative research on impacts 6 of mining employment. The survey results we will present 7 today are from 2001 qualitative semi-direct interviews with 8 mine employees, and their families. 9 These results tell you about the quality of 10 employment, based on experience of employees, and how this -- 11 how this employment has affected families in our community. 12 We focussed on families, because this is -- is 13 the impact that employees have talked about the most. 14 Definition. When we were talking the mining 15 sector, we are mainly talking about employment with the 16 existing EKATI and Diavik Diamond Mines. 17 Of the twenty (20) people we interviewed, over 18 half of them were employed full-time. Sixty percent part 19 time, casual, seasonal jobs represent only 15 percent of the 20 employment. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 MS. GLORIA ENZOE: Quality employment. As we 25 -- sorry. As we ask the mine employees what do you like

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1 about your job? We asked them -- team work, 31 percent, 2 training and skill development, 28 percent, enjoy the work 3 task, 18 percent, and the other question was, how could your 4 job be improved. 5 Sorry. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MS. GLORIA ENZOE: Okay. Better work 10 schedule, 23 percent, better teams -- better teamwork, 17 11 percent; unknown nil, 15 percent; childcare in community, 13 12 percent. 13 We also asked mine employees if they -- if you 14 are no longer working, why did you leave your job? Family 15 problems, 30 percent; end of contract, 25 percent; still 16 working, 20 percent; too few -- too few Aboriginal people, 5 17 percent; health reasons, 5 percent; did not like their 18 workplace, 5 percent; perceived racism, 3 percent. 19 We also talked to families about the impact of 20 employment on the family. We asked them how has employment 21 benefitted your family. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MS. GLORIA ENZOE: We asked them how

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1 employment has benefitted the family. Help pay bills on 2 time, groceries, 59 percent... 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 MS. GLORIA ENZOE: I'm sorry. I think I 7 missed that page. Other questions were, we also asked, is 8 work affecting your family and how. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MS. GLORIA ENZOE: No, 30 percent; breakdown 13 of relationships with children, 27 percent; not enough time 14 with children, 23 percent; increasing responsibility and 15 pressure on spouse, 14 percent; breakdown of relationship 16 with spouse, 7 percent. 17 In summary, the results of the survey tell us 18 about the importance of family in our community. These 19 results also tell us that mining employment may be negatively 20 affecting family life. In order for our community to benefit 21 rather than be negative -- negatively affect -- affected by 22 the proposed De Beer diamond mine, we recommend the 23 following: 24 Family time. Employment in the mining sector 25 creates stress within the family. The two (2) week rotation

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1 schedule separates parents from their children and spouse 2 from each other. Our research has revealed many different 3 emotional, mental, as well as physical health problems 4 resulting from this separation. 5 De Beer Canada should work with mine employees 6 as well as helping social service resource people in our 7 community to help mitigate these effects. See presentation 8 by Lutsel K'e at health and social services. 9 Investment in daycare. The government of the 10 Northwest Territories is responsible for funding education in 11 our region. Childcare for children under school age is a 12 major issue. If employees do not have a responsible ch -- 13 child b -- childcare, it creates stress and anxiety in them 14 as an individual and in the family. They are more likely to 15 miss work or quit their jobs for that reason. For our 16 community to benefit from the proposed De Beer diamond mine, 17 further work must be done to ensure. 18 Time on the land. The other major impact of 19 the diamond mining industry relates to traditional land use. 20 The community is based on a land-based way of life: caribou 21 hunting, fishing, berry harvesting and trapping. The land is 22 part of our identity. 23 Employees working at the diamond mines report 24 spending less time on the land and their families than do -- 25 than do other members of our community, this can cause for

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1 emotional stress and anxiety. 2 Conclusion. Many of our health issues we 3 talked about are not about physical illness. They are issues 4 of emotional stress and anxiety. There is no outward sign 5 that employees and their families or other members of the 6 community be -- may be suffering. However, emotional stress 7 and anxiety can lead to many other social problems that -- 8 and physical health effects in our community. 9 These impacts may not be visible today or 10 tomorrow but -- but may be next year or in five (5) years. 11 Children growing up with self-childcare facilities and 12 absence of one or more parents will surely have devastating 13 impact on our community in the future. 14 By sharing this information with you today, we 15 hope that you will consider how the government of the 16 Northwest Territories, the Government of Canada, De Beers 17 Diamond Mines as well as other mines, can help us deal with 18 these health issues before we see a health crisis in our 19 community. Thank you. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 MS. ABBIE JONASSON: I will now do the second 25 part of the presentation. Will Lutsel K'e benefit from

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1 another mine? 2 Introduction. The purpose of this 3 presentation is to take a brief look at the impact of the 4 mining development on housing, social services, health, 5 recreation, education, culture, employment, justice and 6 economic development in Lutsel K'e. 7 Community Profile. We have a Band membership 8 of six hundred and fifty-one (651) people. Our current 9 population is three hundred and ninety-six (396). We are an 10 isolated fly-in community. 11 We have limited access to resources. The cost 12 of living in Yellowknife is 100 percent, and in Lutsel K'e it 13 is 175 percent, according to GNWT Bureau of Statistics. We 14 are a 95 percent Aboriginal community. 15 Community Services. We have a two (2) nurse 16 nursing station, a healing centre consisting of social 17 services, alcohol and drug and prenatal services. We have a 18 senior citizens home where we have respite and meal programs. 19 We also have a home care program. 20 We have dental, therapy services, heli-health 21 services, housing office, Co-op Store, a school from 22 kindergarten to Grade 10, and an adult Ed. Centre. 23 We also have a fire hall, forestry base, 24 renewable resource office, treaty entitlement office, 25 recreation office, MLA office, economic development office,

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1 income support and parks office, justice coordinator, two (2) 2 Member Detachment, RCMP Detachment, airport terminal, CARC 3 office, band office and a DPW office. 4 The impact on food chain. Caribou migration 5 route impacted because of mining development. Over time, 6 traditional food consumption will be reduced and will be 7 replaced by store bought foods. Caribou has not been 8 harvested close to the community for the last two (2) years. 9 Fuel emissions from the mines going into 10 traditional food sources such as caribou, fish and birds will 11 be passed onto the human food chain, and long term health 12 effects could be very detrimental to the community. 13 Impact on Health. Over time, the historical 14 traditional diet will change resulting in an increase of 15 diseases such as diabetes, heart disease, colon cancer and 16 high cholesterol. This will increase the demand for primary 17 health care services and may reduce life span of community 18 members. 19 Impact on Health. The reduction of 20 traditional foods in the community's diets, especially in low 21 income families, will result in nutritional deficiencies. 22 The consumption of cheaper processed foods will result in 23 increase of dental problems and obesity. 24 Impact on health and culture. If caribou 25 harvesting activities decrease, this will lead to reduction

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1 in physical activity, and a loss of the part of the culture. 2 Loss of traditional activities on the land, 3 such as preparing meat, and dry meat making, camping, lots of 4 skills in preparation of hides, and finished products. 5 Impact on social issues. No income to high 6 income paying jobs quickly result in social problems. No 7 orientation on how to cope with a sudden change of lifestyle. 8 No life skills, money, and debt management. 9 Social housing, rent increases, jumping from 10 thirty-two (32) dollars per month, to the maximum unit rent 11 of one (1) bedroom, fourteen hundred and ninety-nine (1499), 12 two (2) bedrooms, one (1) -- one thousand nine hundred and 13 twenty-six (1,926), three (3) bedrooms, two thousand, three 14 hundred and fifty-five (2,355), four (4) bedrooms, two 15 thousand, seven hundred and eighty-three (2,783). 16 Impacts on more social issues. If alcohol and 17 drug abuse has been a problem, high income may trigger higher 18 addiction problems; cocaine, crack, bootlegging, and 19 trafficking. 20 Cocaine and crack use is becoming a big 21 northern problem. Cocaine and crack dealers are targeting 22 high earners. 23 With the increase of bootlegging and drug 24 trafficking in Lutsel K'e, income earners are expending fifty 25 (50) dollars, to three hundred (300) dollars per bottle, ten

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1 (10) dollars per joint. Traffickers are benefitting, and 2 families are suffering. 3 Family stability is affected by children 4 starting to act out, being spoiled by money, becoming 5 materialistic. Money replaces love out of guilt. 6 Traditional values become lost again. 7 Child welfare issues developed if spouse at 8 home cannot cope, and turns to gambling or alcohol and drugs. 9 Inadequate child care for spouses left the community 10 potentially leaves them unable to fulfill their employment 11 obligations. 12 Family stability is affected by, when an 13 employee returns to family, they may end up mis-managing 14 their income, and this causes more relationship problems. 15 For example, bills are not being paid, spouse 16 is not having enough money to maintain the home when employee 17 goes back to work, there is not enough core funding available 18 to have a community program in place to work through these 19 issues with affected families. 20 Increase in housing damages are alcohol- 21 related. The crime statistics show that -- show there is a 22 definite rise in liquor and drug offenses. 23 For the period, January through April 2003, 24 there has been thirty-five (35) criminal code charges, 25 including nine (9) liquor offenses, and three (3) drug

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1 offenses. 2 For the year 2002, there were two hundred and 3 eight (208) criminal code charges. Ninety-five (95) percent 4 of these were alcohol and drug related. 5 With this many people having criminal records, 6 it may prevent community members from securing employment for 7 the next three (3) to five (5) years. 8 Sudden changes to the structure of the family 9 unit is decreasing traditional values and activities. Mining 10 employment causes dysfunctional families, because the family 11 is split up for the -- for half the time, and there is a lack 12 of community support programs in place to help deal with 13 separation, and relationship issues. 14 Current employment -- employee assistance 15 programs funded by the minds are not culturally appropriate. 16 Employment opportunities seem to favour single 17 males or females. Supports are not in place for mothers, or 18 single parents, as there are no daycare facilities on-site. 19 This means that we cannot help our high-risk, 20 low income groups moving to the employment field, and the 21 opportunities that mining offers. 22 If this group does secure employment, extended 23 family members are ending up taking on parental 24 responsibilities so the family unit structure shifts again. 25 The mines contribute to social problems by not

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1 addressing these groups, as these people are more prone to be 2 living over-crowded housing and having social issues and 3 lower education levels. The mines have not been forthcoming 4 with programs and resources to assist the community deal with 5 the social impact of mine development. 6 Main social is -- issues in the community are 7 generational effects of residential schools on parenting, 8 family violence as a result of addiction issues, alcohol and 9 drug abuse, gambling, discipline problems with children 10 resulting in behaviour issues in the schools and poor 11 academic achievements. 12 High number of school dropouts, teen mothers, 13 STDs, FASFA -- main social issues in the community are a high 14 number of income support clients, fewer graduates from school 15 or colleges. We only had one high school graduate since 16 1999. 17 Main social issues, housing shortages 18 resulting in over-crowding and family abuse. Currently there 19 are thirty-one (31) applicants on the community waiting list 20 for social housing. Twenty-two (22) require one bedroom 21 units, five (5) require two (2) bedroom, three (3) require 22 three (3) bedroom, one requires a four (4) bedroom. 23 We seen -- we are seeing mining employees 24 moving away because there is no new housing and social 25 housing becomes un-affordable. In terms of these families

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  1  which could go towards the local economy has been lost. 
  2  Although the mines have employed local people, they move away
  3  and the community still remains largely populated with
  4  unskilled workers and less role models for our school
  5  children.
  6                 The community needs to be developed at a
  7  faster rate to keep up with the needs of the members so they
  8  won't want to relocate out of town.
  9                 Statistics.  We have eight (8) people with
 10  diabetes, three (3) with cancer, twenty-four with STD's
 11  within the last year, four (4) teen mother -- mothers under
 12  sixteen (16), seventeen (17) crimes and treatment within the
 13  last three (3) years.  
 14                 We have forty-six (46) call backs at the
 15  health centre related to alcohol and drugs.  Twelve (12)
 16  families with full time -- employed at the mine, five (5)
 17  relocated to Yellowknife.  We had eighty-five (85) percent of
 18  potential employees failing pre-employment drug tests.  
 19                 We've had five (5) alcohol related deaths over
 20  the last -- or seven (7) alcohol -- alcohol related deaths
 21  over the last five (5) years.  We have twelve (12) children
 22  with development delays based on the nippissing screening
 23  done in 2001 on a random group of thirty-five (35) children
 24  ages zero (0) to twelve (12).  Oh, sorry.  We have ten (10)
 25  at the correct stage of development, twenty (20) with some

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1 form of developmental delay, five (5) later diagnosed with 2 FAS/FAE. 3 Recommendations. Mines invest in housing for 4 mine employees. Mines develop incentives to meet the needs 5 in families. Investment in early childhood development in 6 the community and on-site through adequate day care 7 facilities. Mine to build and maintain a facility out on the 8 land to provide a full range of family and individual support 9 services. 10 This commitment will ensure yearly operational 11 costs are provided by the mine. The community shall be 12 guaranteed the employee assistance program contract to 13 provide culturally appropriate support programs for the 14 mining employees and community members. 15 Mines to use this facility for a pre- 16 orientation program for all northern and southern workers. 17 Community input and approval process must be in place in the 18 development of this pre-orientation program. Mine to train 19 and contract community resource workers to provide workshops 20 and programs at the mine sites, as well as at -- on the land 21 facility; to be established at the mine to be used as a 22 communication and counselling tool. 23 Close working relationship must be guaranteed 24 with the Lutsel K'e Band, school pathways and adult education 25 to promote training, education and employment.

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1 Mine must provide long term plan and financial 2 commitment to this process. Mine to support cultural 3 programs so community can retain culture but grow with new 4 developments by use of on the land facility for language and 5 cultural programs. 6 Integrate on the land facility programs with 7 the Lutsel K'e school curriculum. Review potential employee 8 with -- with criminal record and assist them to get into 9 programs to overcome their issues and get them employed. 10 Heavy investment in community infrastructure 11 is needed to encourage employees to stay in the community. 12 For example, school expansion, health centre expansion, more 13 housing units, youth and recreational facilities, child care 14 facilities, retail, restaurant and hotel development. Must 15 create opportunity for community business development and 16 training initiatives. 17 The mines will influence how our culture will 18 evolve in the future. Long after the mines have finished 19 their production, our community will still exist as it has 20 since time immemorial. These changes may not be what the 21 community wants for its future. Marci cho. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for that 2 excellent presentation. Questions? Any questions from the 3 floor, for Lutsel K'e? 4 Mr. O'Reilly...? 5 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Thanks for recognizing 6 me without putting my hand up. 7 I'm wondering if Lutsel K'e First Nation has a 8 position on the timing of the completion of a social economic 9 agreement, and impact on benefit agreement? Whether these 10 should be completed before the close of the Public Registry, 11 before the Environmental Assessment, submitted before 12 construction? What -- what -- is there any preference or 13 position? Thank you. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms. Catholique...? 15 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: When the socio- 16 economic and the IBA agreements should be completed, was that 17 the question? 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, when -- when -- what 19 is your preference for timing? Prior to the close of the EA, 20 prior to regulatory, or prior to construction? 21 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: I think yesterday, 22 that question was asked to me in regards to the Environmental 23 Assessment. And our -- our answer is the same. That I think 24 that it should be completed before the -- the closing of the 25 Registry.

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1 I know that that date is set as May the 23rd, 2 but I think it's -- it can be recommended -- and we recommend 3 to the -- the Board that that date be extended. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any additional 5 questions for Lutsel K'e? Okay, the next presentation I 6 have, I have notice of Kurt Von Hagen from Yellowknife 7 Catholic Schools. Mr. Von Hagen...? I guess, just use this 8 table at the front, sir. 9 You don't have overheads, do you? 10 MR. KURT VON HAGEN: I do not. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MR. KURT VON HAGEN: Thank you, Mr. Chair and 16 to the Board, for the opportunity. I appreciate having a 17 short period of time, here, with you this afternoon. I know 18 it's at the tail end of a long five (5) days and by the looks 19 of it, it might go longer than that. 20 I stand here today, as Superintendent of 21 Yellowknife Catholic Schools. And I am here acting, I guess, 22 as both citizen, and in an educational capacity. 23 And, it's probably not usual to hear from 24 people like myself at these kinds of meetings, but I thought 25 that I had a responsibility to step forward, and to, I guess,

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1 for the perspective on the floor. 2 Less than a decade ago, the Northwest 3 Territories, and the City of Yellowknife were in economic 4 decline. Correspondingly so was much of our social 5 infrastructure, and poor throughout all of our communities. 6 Division, devolution, downsizing were the 7 operative words. Certainly in Yellowknife, we were -- we 8 were very challenged. Obviously, this is not a time to 9 relive the past, and it is not my purpose to review in detail 10 just how challenged we were. 11 However, perhaps it's time to review our 12 present status. With the arrival of the diamond industry, we 13 have experience a resurgence within the Territories. 14 While there will be those who decry, or 15 criticize the economic activity in the environmental impact, 16 and the spin-off social ills associated with the diamond 17 development. 18 I believe it is important to capture just what 19 this most significant exploration and development has meant 20 for the north. 21 We should be concerned with the shadow side of 22 the development, but we should also be equally inspired by 23 the positive that diamonds has made upon us. 24 One (1) way to do so, is just to list the 25 kinds of activities, and initiatives that have taken place as

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1 a result, some of which, I'm sure, have been alluded to 2 throughout these past five (5) days. 3 We've experienced the creation of countless 4 northern companies, suppliers, and workers. We've seen the 5 rise of geotechnical and geosynthetic services, the renewal 6 and replenishment of expediting and charter services has been 7 incredible, as outfitting companies have realized 8 unprecedented prosperity. 9 We've seen the growth of standard services in 10 the areas of surveying, engineering, firefighting, ice road 11 maintenance. The growth of camp and accommodation 12 management, food, and environmental services has been 13 unparalleled. 14 The eruption of entire new industries, like 15 the unprecedented diamond cutting and polishing, has been 16 tremendously beneficial. 17 The training and support for apprenticeable 18 positions has grown with these developments. Construction, 19 logistics, contract mining, and site servicing have reached 20 new heights. 21 Heavy mechanic installations for the mining 22 sector have also taken off. Growth in drilling, and 23 blasting, trucking, and hauling, security, and training, has 24 been equally phenomenal, and the list goes on. 25 None of the aforementioned begins to address

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1 the soft side, the human resource development, and the 2 training. There has been, and will continue to be, 3 tremendous investment in the training of our people. 4 In fact, supply can't meet the massive demand 5 at the present time. However, that has not stopped our 6 diamond industry players from investing hundreds of thousands 7 of dollars in on-site training facilities, with a focus on 8 upgrading, support for apprenticeships, operational training, 9 and more. 10 The arrival of the diamond industry has raised 11 the educational bar in a supportive contest. Early school 12 leavers are now receiving their education in a different way. 13 Adult learners, are now realizing educational goals, in 14 conjunction with meaningful employment. 15 Expectations within the work environment have 16 led to job embedded learning, and the transference of these 17 higher education levels, and expectations of the communities 18 of the north, will add value to each of them. Overall, the 19 potential for community development is higher than it has 20 ever been. 21 So, who has benefitted from this economic 22 activity, from this development? The simple answer would be 23 to say that the north in general has. A closer look suggest 24 more specifically, that northern residents, Aboriginal Bands, 25 communities, and even the Government have realized the

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1 dividends. 2 The manner in which residents have benefitted 3 has largely been addressed in earlier comments. The long 4 overdue benefit to Bands and their communities has been lived 5 through impact benefit agreements, or participation 6 agreements. 7 The parameters and terms of the many 8 agreements between the respective diamond mines and bands, 9 have had an immediate and direct positive impact on 10 Aboriginal people. 11 Both capacity and independence have been 12 enhanced, and it has fit with the self-governing model that 13 Bands are seeking. 14 This is not to suggest that there shouldn't be 15 some concern about the developments that are taking place. 16 Certainly, the GNWT has learned from each time that it has 17 negotiated the parameters for our first two (2) diamond 18 mines. 19 This particular Board has also grown, as it 20 has to entertain the respective environmental impact of each 21 project. It will continue to do so now, as it entertains 22 this new De Beers development. 23 It would be safe to say that the people of the 24 north have also had to grow, and make adjustments to the new 25 realities of these developments.

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1 My position would be to engage these new 2 developments in a constructive and challenging manner. 3 Ensure that there is integrity, ensure that there is 4 responsibility across the spectrum of commitments that are 5 made by these huge corporations. They are here for a 6 purpose. 7 Their intent is to make a profit. Our intent 8 should be to ensure that they don't make a profit at a great 9 expense to the north but we should not arbitrarily dismiss 10 them out of hand. 11 We should continue to have high expectations. 12 We should continue to engage them constructively to address 13 the concerns of northerners. The day of corporate 14 indifference or social irresponsibility within the countries 15 or regions chosen for development has disappeared. 16 A quick scan of the world suggests strongly 17 that people will no longer tolerate irresponsible 18 developments or the social injustices associated with them. 19 We need to demand that these companies live up 20 to their promises. They need to meet their environment 21 obligations. They need to work towards sustainable 22 development. They need to meet their obligations to the 23 human resource sector and they must honour their 24 participation agreements with our First Nations people. 25 Having said this, we must also be realistic

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1 and fair. We cannot expect that the diamond mines can do 2 everything on their own or do everything for us. We cannot 3 expect them to do all of the work. We must work in 4 partnership and relationship with them. Clarity of purpose 5 and sound communication strategies will go a long way to 6 achieving successful and sustainable development. 7 This can not be just for the short term. We 8 must adopt this approach for the long term. These mines will 9 be with us for twenty (20), twenty-five (25), thirty (30) 10 years at a minimum. It will require vigilance on both parts. 11 Let's invest our energies in realizing a mutually beneficial 12 partnership characterized by responsible and honourable 13 cooperation. To it -- to do anything less or else will be 14 the north failing. 15 We cannot expect to have the dividends offered 16 by such developments without investing of ourselves, as well. 17 We have the capacity to do so. Let's use that capacity to 18 realize a vision of a better north, both directly through 19 these developments and indirectly through secondary and 20 tertiary industries supporting them. 21 De Beer has made a strong part in honouring 22 its commitments to the north. It has begun to invest in 23 significant and meaningful initiatives as a means to support 24 long term growth. Two (2) projects that illustrate their 25 approach are the NWT apprenticeship support materials and

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1 investment in the career and technical centre being built by 2 our particular district. 3 In the first, De Beers has partnered with the 4 Department of Education, Culture and Employment, Human 5 Resources Development Canada, Indian and Northern Affairs 6 Canada, Skills Canada, Northwest Territories Nunavut, Aurora 7 College and the Genesis group to produce five (5) modules 8 designed to support the learner in realizing the competencies 9 required to meet the entrance level for apprenticeship 10 programs. 11 Aside from the working relationships that it 12 has taken to produce these quality and useful materials, De 13 Beers has helped produce a resource that will support long 14 term development of our people. Investing in the people of 15 the north is our greatest hope. This, in my view, is a 16 visionary approach to development and I do have those 17 materials here if anyone cares to see them. 18 In the second example, which is a little 19 closer to home, De Beers has invested significantly in the 20 construction and eventual operation of a career and technical 21 centre. That is going to be located in our City. Our 22 objective is to establish this centre that -- and that it 23 will promote pre-employment exposure and experience for our 24 students in the trades. It is our belief that this project 25 can drive some significant issues to foster an environment

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1 that can produce trades-ready students for the northern work 2 place. 3 While the centre will cater to the needs of 4 Yellowknife students, it's also our intent to open the 5 facility to all students across the north, to Aurora College 6 programs, to Skills Canada programs, to industry participants 7 and to our community. 8 Again, this facility is an investment in the 9 future and supports the long-term development of people. In 10 my view, this is an appropriate and strategic approach to 11 contributing to northern development. If these are examples 12 of how De Beers intends to do business, I would say that it 13 is a positive sign of things to come. 14 In closing, I would suggest that we have made 15 a good, strong start in further developing the Northwest 16 Territories. The last five (5) to seven (7) years has 17 catapulted the north onto the world stage. The potential 18 earning power of the north is at an all time high. We 19 certainly do not want to take a step back at such a critical 20 stage. 21 Let's take advantage of an opportunity that 22 will add value to the Territories. I believe that in De 23 Beers, we have a corporate citizen that will respond 24 positively to the expectations we have of them. In fact, on 25 at least a local level, that's been my experience.

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1 Let's work with them to make sure that 2 together, we can meet those expectations. Thank you, Mr. 3 Chair. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir. Any 5 questions for Mr. Von Hagen? Okay, thank you very much, sir. 6 The next presentation -- I'm sorry, Ms. 7 Catholique...? 8 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: I'm sorry, but I 9 didn't catch who the presenter was -- was speaking on behalf? 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, it's Kurt Von 11 Hagen, Superintendent of Yellowknife Catholic Schools. 12 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: Is that the -- the 13 organization that just -- I think I read in the paper 14 something about a half a million dollars? 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Von Hagen...? 16 MR. KURT VON HAGEN: Happy to respond. You 17 are correct in that. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you -- microphone, 19 sir? 20 MR. KURT VON HAGEN: It is on. Yes, you're 21 correct in that assumption. We have been the recipient, 22 recently, in partnership Memorandum of Agreement with De 23 Beers Canada. 24 But I would like to highlight that, while it 25 will directly impact us and the facility we plan to build, as

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1 I've highlighted, the intent is to have this facility also 2 answer the needs of northerners in general. 3 And I would add, as well, that you have a 4 school district that has invested $1 million in this project, 5 aside from the monies that we're referencing right now with 6 De Beers. Thank you. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir. Ms. 8 Catholique...? 9 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: Marci. Also, you 10 spoke to the IBA. And I just wanted to know if you knew the 11 content of any of the IBA's? 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. Von 13 Hagen...? 14 MR. KURT VON HAGEN: Again, I -- I've only 15 had a cursory review of those agreements. My understanding 16 is, and my hope would be, that through those participation 17 agreements or impact benefit agreements, that the peoples of 18 those communities impacted most directly, will receive 19 positive benefit. 20 And I would hope, even as this process does, 21 that the vigilance that people like yourself have, will 22 ensure that those -- those benefits go directly to the people 23 that they most impact. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms. 25 Catholique...?

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1 MS. FLORENCE CATHOLIQUE: Marci. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you very 3 much, sir. Second presentation is Mr. Bill Enge, YK Metis 4 Nation Local Number 66. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Enge. And 9 if you could present your co-presenter for the record, 10 please? 11 MR. BILL ENGE: Good afternoon, Panel Members 12 and ladies and gentlemen of the audience. 13 My name is Bill Enge, and I am President 14 Yellowknife Metis Nation Local 66. I have been the President 15 of this organization for the past seven (7) years. I have 16 been involved directly and indirectly with diamond 17 development going on in this region, dating all the way back 18 to the early BHP days and culminating today in the third 19 consecutive diamond mine to be built in this region. 20 I'm here today because Yellowknife Metis 21 Nation Local 66 has a thousand (1,000) members, and 22 development that goes on in this region effects our 23 membership positively and negatively. But thus far I can say 24 that what I have seen in terms of development, it has been 25 overwhelming positive as opposed to negative, with respect to

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1 the socio-economic impacts on the members that I represent. 2 And I'm sure I can say the same for members of 3 this community and across the North. The Northwest 4 Territories needs economic development and we need jobs and 5 we need to bring ourselves into a level of prosperity that 6 the rest of this country enjoys. 7 So, having had said that, I would like to say 8 that my members are in support of the construction of De 9 Beers Snap Lake Project. 10 The presentations, and the work that has gone 11 into today's -- or, this week's presentation, we are very 12 satisfied with, and we see that De Beers is, in all 13 likelihood, based on what we have seen thus far, going to be 14 a good corporate citizen of our region, our community, and 15 across the Northwest Territories as a whole. 16 Now, one (2) of the things that we very much 17 appreciate it, and we felt we deserved as Aboriginal peoples 18 who have Aboriginal rights to the lands and resources in this 19 region, is the introduction of impact benefit agreements by 20 the diamond companies with the Aboriginal Groups that are 21 going to be affected, or impacted by these developments. 22 I was a negotiator with respect to the very 23 first impact benefit agreement that Metis secured between BHP 24 and the Metis of the North Slave Region. 25 In that regard, we had to go so far as to

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1 construct a new regional organization known as the North 2 Slave Metis Alliance to do that job, and I think it's public 3 knowledge that there was a lot of growing pains with respect 4 to getting the Metis organized in this region to do that very 5 job. 6 And, that's not to say the growing pains are 7 over today either. We're still right in the midst of it 8 right now, but we'll work our way through these -- these 9 piecing difficulties, and eventually get where we need to go. 10 Now, I wish to address the -- the notion that 11 the South Slave Metis Tribal Council, who are now call 12 themselves the Metis Nation of the Northwest Territories, has 13 some kind of Aboriginal right to the land and resources in 14 this region. 15 We take exception to that contention. As far 16 as we're concerned, this is our home land. The South Slave 17 Metis Tribal Council has changed their name, so they can act 18 like they have a pan-territorial mandate. That's simply not 19 the case. 20 We are actively lobbying the Federal 21 Government, the Territorial Government, and anybody else who 22 will listen to us, to get to the negotiations table. 23 We see this region as our region. There is a 24 line in the sand here, and they've crossed it. While I 25 understand that the South Slave Metis Tribal Council, or the

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1 Metis Nation Northwest Territories as they are now called, 2 wants to hold a Mackenzie Valley panel here, and responsible 3 for not addressing the Fort Resolution, Metis. 4 Well, we find that as an absurd argument. 5 They have a -- a lands and resource negotiation underway, 6 which does not include lands of the North Slave Region. 7 We therefore, categorically state, for the 8 record, that we do not expect this Board to make De Beers 9 application contingent on the introduction, or the securing 10 of an impact benefit agreement with the -- with the Metis 11 Nation of the Northwest Territories, or as they're know, as 12 the South Slave Metis Tribal Council. 13 With that in mind, I would just like to wrap 14 up my -- my discussion here today, with the Panel, or -- or 15 presentation by saying once again, that the Metis and 16 Aboriginals, or Aboriginal counterpart, the Treaty 8 Indians, 17 the Dogrib Indians, and to some extent, the Inuit from 18 Kugluktuk, must benefit from lands and resource development 19 going on in their homelands, and in their backyards. 20 I would expect that this Board would make the 21 issuance of permits and license recommendations to the 22 Department of Indian and Northern Affairs to -- contingent 23 upon the securing of an impact benefit agreement with those 24 Aboriginal peoples whose -- whose lands are being developed 25 without the benefit of a land claim in place.

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1 So, with that, I would like to introduce my 2 counterpart, Mark Douglas, who is the Vice President of the 3 Rae-Edzo Metis Local 64, who is here on behalf of his 4 membership to present the views of the Rae-Edzo Metis to this 5 Board. Thank you. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Enge. Mr. 7 Douglas...? 8 MR. MARK DOUGLAS: My name is Mark Douglas, 9 from Rae-Edzo. I just want to state just for the record that 10 the North Slave -- North Slave Region, the people that are 11 here represent -- or the Dogrib communities, Rae-Edzo, Lac de 12 Gras, Kumati (phonetic) and Boobati (phonetic) and 13 Yellowknife people in Dettah. This not the South Slave Metis 14 Tribal council territory. This is our home land and we will 15 say what we are going to do. Don't infringe on our rights. 16 Please respect what we are going to do and we can work with 17 anybody and will do things right. 18 I would like to make a longer speech but I 19 keep it really short. Thank you very much. Massi. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir. Mr. Enge, 21 that you very much. Questions? Thank you very much, Mr. 22 Enge, for your usual eloquence. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: The next presentation is for 2 the -- by the Northwest Territories Construction Association. 3 Gentlemen? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. DAVID TUCKER: Thank you very much. I'd 8 like to make some brief introductions. To my far left is Ken 9 Zarkowitz (phonetic). He works with Nahanni Construction and 10 he's the Director on our Board and to my immediate left is 11 Bill Ahoe. He's with Central Mechanical Systems and also, 12 past president and director of the Northwest Territories 13 Construction Association. We have a brief oral presentation. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Your name, sir? 15 MR. DAVID TUCKER: My name -- that's the first 16 part of the presentation. My name is David Tucker and I'm 17 the president of the NWT Construction Association. We are 18 here today to lend De Beers our full but not unconditional 19 support for the development of the Snap Lake diamond mine. 20 We support this development because 21 appropriate development of northern resources is the best and 22 perhaps the only realistic way for all northerners to achieve 23 prosperity and we support this development because it 24 supports the Construction Association's -- Association's 25 vision for the future of the north, a vision in which the NWT

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1 because a half territory, making a meaningful contribution to 2 the Canadian Federation and where northerners are the masters 3 of their own destiny. 4 What qualifies the Construction Association to 5 take a position on this important development? Well, for 6 one, construction is now the largest industry in the NWT 7 accounting for 71 percent of territorial GDP. Contractors, 8 architects and engineers collectively comprise the largest 9 private sector employer in the NWT and pay the highest wages 10 of any sector outside government. 11 Moreover, our members live and work in the 12 NWT, are active in recruiting new people to the north and 13 improving northern skills levels. Finally, more than most, 14 our industry is particularly vulnerable to swings in the 15 territorial economy and hence to development decisions such 16 as the one we are addressing here today. 17 Of course, the construction industry has a 18 vested interest in resource and economic development, 19 however, the association does not advocate resource 20 development at any cost. In our view, it is critical that 21 northerners assess the inevitable cost of resource 22 development, be they environmental, social or financial and 23 balance those costs against the anticipated benefits. 24 Only those projects whose benefits exceed 25 their costs deserve our support. It is also our view that

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1 economic and social benefits accruing from the development of 2 the Snap -- Snap Lake mine will far outweigh the 3 environmental and social costs. 4 Our association will not be speaking to the 5 environmental costs associated with this proposed 6 development. I'm sure you've been provided with testimony in 7 this regard already and steps required to mitigate negative 8 impacts. Rather, we wish to speak to the economic and social 9 benefit the Snap Lake mine will be bringing. 10 The evidence for our position is gleaned from 11 past experience prior to the development of the BHP and 12 Diavik diamond mines, the economy of the NWT was in dire 13 straights. Unemployment had reached almost 14 percent in 14 late 1999 but has since plummeted to 6.3 percent by November 15 of 2002. 16 The Construction Association's view is that 17 but for a profound and persistent skills gap, unemployment 18 levels in the NWT could be lower skill, thanks largely to the 19 development and ongoing operation of diamond mines in the NWT 20 but these figures merely represent economic improvement. 21 On the social front, territorial welfare 22 payments dropped by almost 70 percent between 1999 and 2002. 23 In two (2) recent annual reports produced by the GNWT to 24 assess the EKATI and Diavik's impact on North Slave 25 communities, conclude that there are no noticeable negative

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1 socio-economic repercussions attributable to the mines. 2 In fact, they find average incomes have 3 increased while spousal assaults have declined. And they 4 find that more residents of the smaller communities have 5 passed Grade 9, and more of them have earned certificates and 6 diplomas than prior to the advent of diamond mining in the 7 NWT. 8 The reports also find that 70 percent of EKATI 9 employees from the small communities, and 50 percent of 10 employees -- Yellowknife employees, are drinking alcohol less 11 often than before they began working at the mine. 12 Likewise, our industry has seized the 13 opportunities presented by diamond related industrial 14 development, to actively build capacity, both in support of 15 the existing mines and in anticipation of future development. 16 Not so long ago, our non-industrial capacity 17 was well developed, but we had precious little industrial 18 construction capacity. Now, with EKATI and Diavik under our 19 belts, there is not much mine construction our members -- 20 northern members cannot handle. 21 This capacity building allows our industry to 22 provide even more employment opportunities to northerners, 23 which, in turn, strengthens social well-being of -- the 24 social well-being of our territory. 25 We commend the two (2) existing mines for

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1 their considerable support in allowing us to increase our 2 construction capacity. And we should point out that they 3 have likewise provided many other northern and Aboriginal 4 businesses with opportunities to grow and mature. 5 I referred earlier to a skills gap. The 6 shortage of skilled workers is the most significant barrier 7 to fully realizing the potential of northern resource 8 development. The NWT has one (1) of the youngest and fastest 9 growing populations in the country, some 3,900 territorial 10 young people, aged ten (10) to fourteen (14), will be looking 11 for work over the next five (5) years, and another 3,800, 12 aged five (5) to nine (9), will enter the labour force after 13 them. 14 The chances of their finding steady, well 15 paying and meaningful jobs will be improved with the addition 16 of a third diamond mine, but only if we ensure that they have 17 the skills necessary to realize these opportunities. 18 Elementary literacy and numeracy are basic prerequisites for 19 any kind of meaningful employment, even in construction, yet 20 far too many of our youth are leaving school without these 21 crucial skills. 22 De Beers appears to understand that the skills 23 gap is one (1) of the biggest obstacles to building 24 additional northern capacity. We are encouraged to believe 25 this because De Beers has recently made substantial financial

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1 contributions to a proposed trades training centre that you 2 heard about in the previous presentation. 3 We are also encouraged by De Beers funding of, 4 and participation in, development of course material to 5 assist territorial residents in passing the trades entrance 6 exam, also discussed in the previous presentation. 7 So, yes, we support De Beers' proposal because 8 it is definitely in our interests to do so. But for the 9 reasons mentioned, we submit, that virtually everyone stands 10 to benefit significantly. 11 And you don't have to take my word for it. A 12 recent survey found that more than 80 percent of NWT based 13 EKATI employees agreed their lives would improve over the 14 course of five (5) years. 15 Of course, the extent of which northerners 16 truly benefit from the resource development depends on 17 enlightened interaction between Aboriginal governments, the 18 territorial government, the Federal Government, industry and 19 resource developers. 20 This brings us to the conditions for our 21 support, conditions which impose obligations on the federal 22 and territorial governments, as well as on De Beers. The 23 most significant obligation that the federal and territorial 24 governments must bear relates to the skills gap. 25 The Government of the NWT no doubt has their

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1 bests interests in mind when it insists that developers hire 2 a large percentage of northerners. But the reality is, that 3 there are only so many able bodies to go around and even few 4 skilled workers available. 5 So the actual net result of setting 6 unrealistically high northern employment quotas is to 7 encourage the appearance of compliance, without necessarily 8 encouraging genuine capacity building. 9 It is the construction association's 10 experience that the two (2) existing diamond mines have made 11 genuine attempts to expand northern capacity and meet their 12 quotas. However, what may have been a reasonable obligation 13 to impose on BHP, may no longer be reasonable for any of the 14 mines, simply because there are now two (2) mines, the 15 government and a growing business community, tapping the same 16 pool of talent. 17 When we start desperately competing for the 18 same employees, we inflate our labour costs and diminish our 19 competitiveness versus the south. Once the talent pool has 20 been exhausted, it is necessary to replenish the pool, a much 21 more difficult task than simply demanding compliance with a 22 quota. And we would argue, a task for the federal and 23 territorial government. 24 Replenishing the pool requires that we address 25 issues like adequate education, affordable housing and an

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1 attractive cost of northern living. It also requires that we 2 encourage our young people to stay in the north and excel in 3 the north, that we encourage migration to the north, and that 4 we take the long view of capacity building. 5 These are not obligations we can pose -- 6 impose solely on resource developers or industry. These are 7 burdens our governments must take up. 8 We would ask that De Beers and this 9 territorial government to take great care in crafting the 10 northern participating policies, particularly their 11 definition of northern business. 12 A major deficiency in past socio-economic 13 agreements is that instant northern companies, southern 14 companies setting up arrangements of convenience without 15 actually creating additional northern capacity, have 16 benefitted disproportionately from industrial development. 17 We have no objection to southern companies 18 working in the north, but we object to the pretense that 19 these storefront companies are, in fact, northern. 20 This is a sham in which everyone participates. 21 Industry participates, because it's an effective way to 22 secure work, Governments turn a blind eye out of convenience, 23 and the mines succumb to it as a result of unrealistic 24 quotas. 25 This self-delusion only makes it more

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1 difficult to accurately monitor our progress towards the goal 2 of genuine capacity building. 3 We are again encouraged that De Beers 4 understands the realities of Northern capacity building, 5 versus arrangements of convenience. They have indicated a 6 willingness to assess the capacity of northern businesses to 7 meet their needs, and to adjust the composition of their 8 tender packages to maximize realistic northern participation. 9 And, we would further suggest that the con -- 10 that they consult local industry on an on-going basis, as 11 they develop their construction plans, and post construction 12 strategies. 13 In conclusion, it is our view that De Beers is 14 not different from BHP or Diavik. They have simply come out 15 on to the scene at a different time. 16 Further, our response to the Snap Lake 17 development proposal should be no different than our response 18 to previous mine development proposals, but it should reflect 19 the new realities faced by northerners. 20 If we can come to grips with the reality of 21 our present circumstances, the Snap Lake development can make 22 a significant, positive contribution to our collective well- 23 being. 24 If Aboriginal, territorial, and Federal 25 governments, northern businesses, and De Beers can act in

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1 accordance with these realities, this project is deserving of 2 our support. 3 Thank you for the opportunity to share our 4 views on this potentially important milestone on the road, we 5 hope a short road, to northern prosperity, self-sufficiency, 6 and independence. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir. Questions? 8 Questions? Okay. Thank you very much, sir. We will now 9 take a short twenty (20) minute break, and then we will 10 reconvene with closing statements. 11 De Beers will be the last to make their 12 closing statement, with the exception of myself, and if other 13 Intervenors could just indicate to Glenda if you have a 14 closing statement to make, so that I've a -- a list of who to 15 call on. Thank you very much. 16 17 --- Upon recessing at 5:03 p.m. 18 --- Upon Resuming at 5:31 p.m. 19 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, ladies and 21 gentlemen. We will now reconvene in the -- the marathon of 22 the Hearings and the final stage. 23 The first closing statement will be made by 24 the Yellowknife Dene First Nation. 25

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1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MS. RACHEL CRAPEAU: Good evening. My name is 4 Rachel Crapeau for the Yellowknife Dene First Nation Land and 5 Environment Committee. I want to say that I'm glad that we 6 had a chance to look at the De Beers Snap Lake diamond 7 project. 8 From the start of 1996 or '97, I can't 9 remember when, it was Winspear company back then. We were 10 involved with looking at the fish baseline -- fish collection 11 work data back then but, since then, after Monoprose 12 (phonetic) came involved and now De Beers, things have 13 shifted with our involvement with looking at data -- baseline 14 data collection work. 15 And afterwards what we did was we just only 16 looked at information that was sent to us through faxes or 17 mail and also starting with the project description. It's 18 been quite a bit of work in the last two (2) years leading up 19 to today. 20 Meanwhile, at the -- aside from just looking 21 at the De Beers Snap Lake project, our committee has been 22 busy working on the Bathurst Caribou Management Plan and 23 we're on the committee and our member Lars Goulet (phonetic) 24 has been participating at those meetings. 25 And also, hopefully down the road we'll have

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1 the Cumulative Assessment Management Committee and that we'll 2 be able to look at all mines as a whole and everything that 3 happens in the area of our territory for the Yellowknife Dene 4 First Nation. The cumulative effects of everything and I 5 know that we've got a cumulative effects assessment 6 management planning meeting coming up pretty soon right after 7 we're done here. 8 We've also been busy with the Diavik 9 comprehensive study which took us a full -- it seemed like 10 forever but I think it was two (2) years of straight work and 11 I remember those meetings. 12 I didn't count the amount of meetings, but 13 when I was given the -- an award of excellence with working 14 with our Land and Environment Committee members in that 15 process, they said we did at least three hundred (300) 16 meetings or more. That was quite a bit and we participated 17 in the environmental assessment -- environmental agreement 18 negotiations for Diavik and BHP. 19 In the -- in the future that we are hopeful 20 that we would have one regional monitoring board to handle 21 all the monitoring of all the mines. That's our one wish as 22 a committee but that's to be seen later on. We would like to 23 also get started on protected er -- area work for our 24 territory because we're being bombarded with requests for 25 land from anyone and everyone.

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1 We've been working on the Contwoyto-Tibbitt 2 winter road monitoring and we started monitoring from Ross 3 lake to monitor the amount of people who travel on the winter 4 road. That's why through this process to -- this week we 5 were interested in the amount of winter road use the mine was 6 going to be involved in in the future when their -- when 7 their project opens. 8 But besides that, from talking with the elders 9 in pre -- in preparation for the public hearings, we were 10 interested in the air quality and the quality of the fish 11 after the mine closes. If it's going to be edible or if it's 12 going to be different. What is the fish going to be like in 13 the future and the land when it goes through reclamation and 14 there's growing again, is the food going to be good for the 15 caribou and for the animals that live off the land? 16 I was hoping that all the experts would still 17 stay around for Thurs -- yesterday's evening to listen to the 18 Elders because their concerns were basically -- of the 19 nature. That we want to make sure that the land and the 20 waters will not be totally jeopardized for future use. 21 And Mr. Chapman, who had to leave really 22 early yesterday, I -- or Wednesday, I believe, answered my 23 question because I had to ask him on behalf of an elder, is 24 there going to be the same kind of fish in the lake after the 25 mine closes and the man said, yes, which made me happy to

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1 hear that. 2 We had concerns regarding environmental 3 protection issues, the health issues of the workers, the 4 health of the animals. If there's going to be problems with 5 air quality and these things, I think we've put our questions 6 forth and we've got some of the answers and we're pretty 7 satisfied with some of the answers that we've got. 8 We have to do some more reading after we're 9 done and we'll have to get together with the Land and 10 Environment Committee members to -- to go over the answers 11 that we were provided with and -- 12 The week has been pretty scary, at times, 13 because I felt like I was in court and I felt as if I didn't 14 know if I should ask anything in case I'm out of order and I 15 might get into trouble and I won't say anything ever again. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 But I was wanting to mention that we had just 20 a quick little paper that we put together regarding our 21 concerns from this week. For example, who's in charge of air 22 quality regulation? 23 We are concerned that there are currently 24 existing the void in the government's ability to regulate air 25 quality. In Southern Canada, the provinces are in charge of

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1 setting the regulatory framework for regulating air 2 emissions. 3 In the Northwest Territories, the National 4 Energy Board has that mandate for the oil and gas industry 5 for emissions from at least one aspect of gas development, 6 the flaring off of impurities in natural gas. 7 The only aspect of air pollution that can be 8 regulated by the Mackenzie Valley Land and Water Board is 9 dust deposition and acid inputs deposited into lakes. This 10 through the Class A water licenses and RWED through its 11 Environmental Protection Act from 1994 has established 12 maximum acceptable limits for sulphur dioxide and total 13 suspended particulates and that's the microscopic particle 14 that can be breathed into the lungs but this has no 15 regulatory standing and thus is not enforceable. 16 However, we do not have any mechanisms in the 17 NWT for regulation and enforcement of air quality standards 18 for mine developments. It seems that federal and territorial 19 governments have only an advisory role to play in 20 environmental management of air -- air pollution. 21 It is unfortunate that we do not yet have a 22 government regulation that can punish a developer who 23 pollutes beyond the guideline or threshold. We would like to 24 see some progress made in this regard, our regulators in the 25 NWT.

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1 Otherwise the only recourse we have to ensure 2 that De Beers and other mines do not contribute to air 3 pollution problems is th -- is through legally binding 4 environmental agreements or litigation. 5 When is risk acceptable? Last Wednesday, Mr. 6 Johnstone used a familiar argument in talking about risk and 7 uncertainty. The argument, one that the nuclear energy 8 industry in Canada also uses is that there are all kinds of 9 risks in life that Canadians willingly accept in their daily 10 lives. 11 We are never certain whether the plane or car 12 that we travel in will crash. We are never certain that the 13 person serving us a meal at a restaurant has used proper food 14 handling and cooking methods to assure the food is safe to 15 eat but we take it all in faith that we will be safe. 16 However, there is one very big difference 17 between these everyday risks and the risks De Beers is 18 talking about. The risks we take in our own lives are 19 voluntary. We accept the risks and uncertainties exist and 20 are prepared to live with those risks. 21 The risks from the Snap Lake project are 22 involuntary risks, that is these risks are imposed on the 23 land by De Beers, the animals, fish and Aboriginal resource 24 users are not volunteering their lives to take on the risks 25 if De Beers is wrong with their predictions of no significant

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1 impacts. 2 Gathering traditional knowledge. Yellowknives 3 Dene have concerns about the way their people's traditional 4 knowledge has been gathered. It appears to us that what De 5 Beers calls TK gathering has been more like information 6 exchange. 7 Their methods of getting people's TK have not 8 been adequate nor accurate. Science has it appear we view 9 process or evaluating scientific information before it is 10 brought out to the larger scientific community. 11 Experts in the scientific field, similar to a 12 study -- study scientist will review the scientist's draft 13 report for accuracy for methods, results and conclusions. 14 Traditional knowledge reporting should have the same peer 15 review process before a develop it -- a developer uses the TK 16 that is shared. 17 What we mean is whatever TK is used by the 18 company should be reviewed by the most knowledgeable TK 19 holders and a larger segment of the community, for example, 20 the Land Environment Committee or Land Environment 21 Committees. This review of the YK -- Yellowknives Dene 22 traditional knowledge that is being sought by the company 23 should be assessed by the Yellowknife Dene people checking on 24 the accuracy of the TK document before it is used by the 25 company.

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1 This is the short information that we've put 2 together for our closing remarks and that I was just thinking 3 that throughout this week. As a member of the Yellowknife 4 Dene First Nation member, I was feeling as if -- that some 5 people were trying to claim land and as a person who lives in 6 Dettah. 7 And the people who live in our communities, I 8 know that young people when they hear other people claiming 9 land that is not theirs, it up -- it upsets them and that to 10 hear things like that makes you feel kind of really funny. 11 But also I noticed that some time ago when I 12 was working on the Band Council, I was talking to a colleague 13 of mine who was looking at a list of names of -- of people 14 who were considered Metis -- membership people and she knows 15 that her children were listed as Metis and she said that she 16 had listed them as Yellowknives Dene First Nation members and 17 that they were Treaty and she said, how come the Metis people 18 were gathering names of people without the parent's consent. 19 I thought that was kind of interesting and 20 also, I was just wanting to say that it's been a long week, 21 interesting and that I hope that we were helpful in this 22 process and that whatever work that we will have to do in the 23 future, we'll be there to provide the help that's needed but 24 also we expect to be forthcoming also and in Michelle 25 Caper's(phonetic) words, let's do something to work really

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1 well together. Thank you. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms. Crapeau. 3 Chief Edjaracon, welcome, sir. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 CHIEF RICHARD EDJARICON: Thank you. I'd like 8 to thank the Board for giving -- giving me the opportunity to 9 come over and say a few words. Actually, when I sat here 10 listening to people about coming to the presentation here 11 today speaking on behalf of our community, I don't know if 12 I'm -- actually, if I'm still the Chief. 13 But it -- it disturbs me when people speak on 14 behalf of our community and I wish these people would stick 15 around so that they could listen to what I have to say but 16 I'm want to just talk about a couple of points that I want to 17 kind of send a message here. 18 Is that -- you know, all week we've been quite 19 busy with our own Dene Leadership meeting here in Dettah. We 20 had an opportunity to have all the Chiefs come through our 21 community. They gave -- I even seen Charlie Snowshoe so it 22 was good to see you. 23 And you know, when I hear people saying that 24 this is their territory and I think a lot of people are 25 coming to the Board here and saying the same thing and I'm

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1 here to -- just to make a comment about that and I want to 2 kind of clear the air a bit but as you all know, the Akaitcho 3 is in the process already. 4 We have a framework agreement that was signed 5 in July 2000 that leads all thirty-five (35) principles. 6 Part of its governance, the biggest issues is land. And 7 we've been quite busy in this area for the last three (3) to 8 four (4) years. 9 Having said that, one of the things that we 10 were really concerned about was the issue with our neighbour 11 tribes about the boundary and that's something you almost 12 have to be careful what you wish for because it comes true 13 and if it does happen, then what do you do? 14 So we've been quite busy in -- in this area 15 trying to, you know, we were talking on going to court and we 16 went down this road and at the end of November of last -- 17 this past year, we had a huge celebration in regards to this 18 overlap boundary and to us, I think that was something that 19 -- that clearly indicated that who's territory this is and I 20 -- I've got a map here I want to give you before I leave 21 But I want to just let you know that also 22 within the Akaitcho territory we have a few agreements on the 23 table. We have an agreement with the Government of the 24 Northwest Territories and the Government of Canada called a 25 political court.

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1 We also have the interim measures agreement, 2 again with the Government of Canada and the Government of the 3 Northwest Territories and to us that's something that -- its 4 interim measures agreement that until we get to a certain 5 point in negotiations then, you know, those are things that 6 we want protected. 7 So we're going down this road, as well, and I 8 am getting really concerned now that industries open door to 9 people that are trying to claim territory in the same lands 10 we live on and I'm just here to kind of help clarify that 11 this territory that we're all in is the Akaitcho territory 12 and home of the Alnisan (phonetic) First Nation, Lutsel K'e, 13 Dene First Nation and also Dene que (phonetic). 14 And we have a huge territory and we're moving 15 along in a process that's quite unique and again, we're -- 16 like I said, you have to be careful what you wish for and it 17 comes true. So in November of this year we resolved this 18 issue and now we're scratching our heads and regrouping and 19 moving forward. 20 So I just want to kind of shed a little bit of 21 light on, with the Board, of where we're at -- in our process 22 and, you know, we do -- we are concerned about other interest 23 groups that are -- that are out there. That are -- 24 especially interest that this is their traditional territory. 25 But this map that I have here, it was

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1 something that we worked on for some time and also this map 2 that we have we brought to the Legislative Assembly this year 3 prior to the Dogrib's moving forward and -- and going to the 4 initiating process. 5 We call it a -- it's a very expensive map that 6 we had when we brought over to the Legislative Assembly and 7 that shows all the traditional trails, burial sites and all 8 the traditional use area and this map is so huge, it went all 9 the way into Nunavut up to the -- up to Copper, Cambridge and 10 all in that area. 11 So we know where we come from. We know who we 12 are. We have a land base and we're also a government. 13 That's why we're at the table of Government Canada and when 14 people speak on our behalf I'm a bit concerned and I want to 15 make sure that, for the record, that, you know, that's 16 cleared but also I want to kind of send a message to industry 17 that you've got to be careful you don't open the doors to 18 everybody. 19 I think if I was going to the Quitchen 20 (phonetic) area, I know who to see if I was a developer. I 21 will see the people that own the land -- sought to, same 22 thing. They have agreements and those are things that I -- 23 that I'll respect. I'll have to do that. 24 So when people come to our area, Chief 25 Catholique is here today. She's saying Dene que. This map

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1 is a very important map and you know, maybe you could reach 2 it to bring it up. Just so that I want to leave it with you. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would appreciate that, 4 sir. Thank you very much. 5 MR. RICHARD EDJARICON: Thank you very much. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I'll now call 7 upon Chief Catholique from Lutsel K'e Dene First Nation to 8 make the closing statement on behalf of the Lutsel K'e Dene. 9 CHIEF ARCHIE CATHOLIQUE: Thank you, Mr. 10 Chairman. I know Monday I was over here and had the 11 opportunity to make my presentation at the beginning and -- 12 and I had the opportunity to speak in my own language but 13 this afternoon, I don't think I can do that because some of 14 the interpreters are not here but that's all right. I can do 15 it in English. 16 I just want to thank you, again, for giving 17 the time here to make my closing remarks and also the people 18 that are here this afternoon. One of the things that I 19 talked about over and over is that, you know, the Elders back 20 home tell me that, you know, there's people out there that 21 are wanting -- wanting to work the land. 22 People coming in. The mining industry wanting 23 to develop maybe gold or diamonds then -- and what they're 24 saying now is that they're going to go and talk to those 25 people and make sure that -- make sure that the environment

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1 and the waters and the wildlife are -- are -- are going to be 2 protected. 3 Today, I think a couple of mining industries 4 that are on our territory are going to try their best to make 5 sure that the environment is -- is going to be looked after, 6 the wildlife and the waters, and so on. 7 And I think also, that De Beers that is going 8 to -- wanting to do a similar type of work to mine diamonds, 9 and again, I'm here to remind these people that -- that 10 they're going to have to respect the animals and the waters 11 and the land. 12 And I hope that they -- I do have a lot of 13 faith in these people when they talk about how they're going 14 to take care of the land. 15 So, I'm going to leave it at that. And again, 16 you know, I've been asked that -- in a way I can help with 17 these -- these people that are going to work the land, and 18 give the support behind. 19 I know a lot of time -- a lot people has 20 talked about, you know, the land. As Akaitcho people, 21 we'd -- as a young people, when we were growing up, we have 22 been taught to take care of the land. 23 And I'm sure our friend, Charlie, understands 24 that. And I'm sure that he'll speak often about these 25 things, and I'm glad that he's -- he's up there and making

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1 decisions up there. 2 So, I think, you know, when I came over here, 3 I walked in here, there was a lot of people -- a lot of 4 people, different organizations, that are making 5 presentations. 6 And I was thinking, you know, all these people 7 here, you know, are wanting to -- they all have interests, or 8 they all want to be part of what's happening on Akaitcho 9 territory, on our traditional lands. 10 And I was -- I really wasn't, you know, what 11 to make of it, what to think of it. The amount of people 12 talking and making presentations, and these are the lands 13 that I -- I grew up on, these are the lands where I went 14 hunting and trapped and provide for my family. 15 And, you know, from a -- from a trapper, to 16 become -- to be involved in a business, such as the mining, 17 you know, when you be part of that kind of an industry and 18 how you're going to benefit from it. It's a fast -- fast 19 growing thing for the community. 20 And I know the GNWT was here and making 21 presentation earlier, I listened to part of what they were 22 saying. 23 I know the GNWT is -- I think they're trying 24 their best to -- to meet the needs of the communities, but 25 the communities itself know what's needed out there.

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1 To give you an example, for one that I'd talk 2 a lot about is the education of the young people back home. 3 You know, the last five (5) years that -- our graduation is 4 young kids that are coming out of schools are quite low. 5 And, you know, if I became a Chief, I'd have 6 the opportunity to look into it. And one of the things that 7 I found out was that the programs that are being run out 8 there should be run by our own people. 9 So, I've approached the Minister to -- to do 10 this, and I've been given that opportunity to do that this 11 year. 12 And some money that has been involved in 13 that -- there is no money, but I'm quite fortunate because, 14 you know, the agreements that I have made has provided me 15 with a few dollars to invest in the education. So, that was 16 quite good. And that investment that is going to come out 17 good in the end, I know. 18 And again, you know, when you were talking 19 about the social issues here, I know the last few days you 20 have been talking about social issues. 21 One of the things, I think, is happening with 22 the mining industry; there's people coming in from the south, 23 southern workers that come into the mining industry, there's 24 a clash between the aboriginal people, and a lot of our young 25 people are quitting because of that.

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1 So, I think there's a need to investigate, or 2 to -- to look into what I'm saying here. Probably that has 3 been brought up earlier, but again, I want to -- I want to 4 stress that here. 5 And also, the -- a lot of people too also are, 6 you know, when they leave, that the housing situations, the 7 house that they live in, or some of them, they don't have any 8 housing, and it's very difficult for them to, you know, to go 9 into the mines and leave their families behind. 10 And so, that's something that I -- I talked 11 about, I think, in the beginning. And again, I want to -- I 12 want to stress that, so that, you know, there can possibly be 13 something done about that. 14 I know one of the things that we're doing in 15 our discussions with the Federal Government -- one of the 16 things that we talked about is that we all are going to have 17 to work together. 18 And I know our Elders talked about that when 19 our signing of the treaty's, and what they're saying that we 20 want people to -- to live on our lands, and they can work, 21 and work together. 22 And I think, you know, that -- that can be 23 done, and done in a way that we'd, you know, agree to it, and 24 been asked, what do you think -- this is how -- can I be able 25 to do this, you know, that's quite simple to ask.

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1 And a lot of times, you know, things are -- 2 have been done without our involvement, so, but today, you 3 know, this is -- this is good this is what's happening here. 4 The people are listening to -- to us, and I 5 want to thank you for that. I just don't want to say too 6 much, I just want to thank you guys for giving the 7 opportunity here, and I'm hoping to see the De Beers, John, 8 and those people again. 9 So, the other thing too, this is the 10 last -- last comment too. Also, I think, you know, when 11 we're talking about social issues, you know, I think if it 12 was done in a way where they would go and talk to the 13 communities; where you sit down, and like, have a panel -- 14 and all these social issues that's -- that's effected the 15 communities within the jobs that happening in the mining 16 industry, then their going to collect a lot of information. 17 That way, you'll understand where the 18 communities are coming from. So, I just want to leave you 19 with that, and Marci cho. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Chief Catholique. 21 And, the Board truly appreciates the input and hard work that 22 Lutsel K'e Dene First Nation have made this week, represented 23 by Florence Catholique. Thank you very much. 24 North Slave Metis Alliance, Ms. Johnson...? 25 MS. KRIS JOHNSON: Thank you. Kris Johnson,

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1 for the North Slave Metis Alliance. I just have a few 2 comments I'd like to make in closing. 3 Before I begin, I'd like the Board to 4 seriously consider the disadvantages aboriginal communities 5 has had to deal with throughout this process. 6 Due to time constraints, I'm not going to go 7 into great detail. If you'd like more detail, please refer 8 to the document submitted by the North Slave Metis Alliance 9 to the public registry, April 16th and 25th, 2003. 10 However -- however, I would like to bring your 11 attention to the report, The Mackenzie Valley Environmental 12 Impact Review Board released October 1999, entitled, Views on 13 the Diavik Diamond Project Comprehensive Study Report. 14 In this report, the Mackenzie Valley 15 Environmental Impact Review Board, called for a clear, 16 consistent process that would allow for meaningful 17 participation by aboriginal groups. 18 When will the Board be acting on these 19 recommendations to ensure aboriginal communities can 20 adequately participate in environmental assessments of 21 projects proposed on their lands? 22 In the same document, the Board criticizes the 23 Diavik process for not being realistic about party's capacity 24 to respond and raise concerns about exhaust -- exhausting 25 resources.

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1 It is very apparent to the North Slave Metis 2 Alliance; and De Beers, based on their line of questioning, 3 and other aboriginal communities, that this process is now 4 plagued by the same problems. 5 I will leave this with you, in hopes that the 6 capacity and funding issues aboriginal groups have raised 7 throughout this process do -- do not end up being shelved in 8 another report. 9 I would also like to clarify why the NSMA has, 10 to the best of their ability, tried to stay involved in this 11 EA. 12 Historically, Metis in the north -- north, 13 have experience extremely negative impacts from mining; 14 especially when considering the giant mine project. 15 Metis people have been made sick, and saw 16 traditional harvesting areas polluted. And I believe, Alice 17 Lafferty, did a good job of speaking about this last night. 18 This is why the Metis want their concerns addressed, and this 19 is why we are here. 20 Now, on to our presentations. You will have 21 noticed the presentations I gave are all centered around 22 answering the questions: Will the Snap Lake Diamond Project 23 have significant adverse environmental impacts, can these 24 impacts be mitigated, and is there significant public 25 concern?

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1 And I apologize for the repetitiveness of 2 these presentations, however, it was important because these 3 are the questions the Boards -- the Board will be answering, 4 in order to fully assess the impacts of the Snap Lake Diamond 5 Project, as set out in the Mackenzie Valley Resource 6 Management Act. 7 Again, this is why the North Slave Metis have 8 focused our attention on these big picture questions. 9 Basically, the Boards assessment is a three (3) part process. 10 First, they must assess the baseline 11 information, and determine if there is sufficient information 12 to make accurate predictions. 13 Second, they must assess monitoring programs, 14 and their ability to predict impacts. And third, they must 15 assess mitigation measures, and their ability to reduce 16 impacts. 17 The Board has been left hanging at the first 18 step in this process, assessing the baseline information. 19 What we have all heard repeatedly, is that baseline data is 20 inadequate to make accurate predictions. 21 This issue must be resolved before the Board 22 can make an accurate assessment of the impacts associated 23 with the Snap Lake Diamond Project. 24 Now, and I stress, now, we can all work 25 together to ensure accurate baseline data exists, so we can

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1 move to the next step. 2 Traditional knowledge could be the key that 3 we're all looking for. Aboriginal communities have 4 generations worth of information and data that has yet to be 5 explored. 6 The Mackenzie Valley Environmental Impact 7 Review Board, must enforce the requirement that traditional 8 knowledge be considered equally to western science. 9 It is very apparent that this is yet to 10 happen. De Beers has an opportunity to forge relationships, 11 fill in gaps in data, and remove the uncertainty surrounding 12 their impact predictions. 13 Aboriginal communities are ready, willing, and 14 receptive to working with De Beers, however, there's one 15 problem; aboriginal communities do not have the resources, or 16 capacity, to record their traditional knowledge. 17 In fact, aboriginal communities don't even 18 have the resources to adequately participate in this EA. As 19 a result, we're all stuck at the first step in the EA, 20 repeatedly assessing inadequate baseline data, attempting to 21 justify impact predictions made from invalidated models. 22 This issue of inadequate baseline data must be 23 addressed before we can move to the second step, which is 24 monitoring. 25 Once traditional knowledge and western science

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1 have been used to provide the best available baseline data, 2 impact predictions can be made. 3 As De Beers so eloquently stated yesterday, 4 impact predictions are not absolute, and that is why 5 monitoring is so important. 6 Again, this is why the Mackenzie Valley 7 Environmental Impact Review Board must adhere to their Terms 8 of Reference, and require detail monitoring programs be 9 developed before an accurate assessment of the proposed 10 project can be made; this is the Boards obligation. 11 And in further review of the project, De Beers 12 will have the ample time and opportunity to develop 13 monitoring programs with detailed, specific objectives, 14 proposed approach, methodologies, and traditional knowledge. 15 Monitoring programs must be developed before 16 an accurate assessment of the impact predictions can be made. 17 Once again, this has to be done before we can 18 move to the third step in the process, mitigation. Again, 19 because of time constraints, I'm not going to go into great 20 detail about proposed mitigation measure. 21 I'm only going to say that, De Beers has 22 provided some mitigation measures, however, without adequate 23 baseline data, and detailed monitoring, it is impossible to 24 measure if mitigation is sufficient or effective. 25 Furthermore, until the socio-economic impact

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1 agreements, IBA's, and Environmental Agreements, are 2 finalized, it will be impossible for the Board to assess 3 whether or not mitigation measures sufficiently address the 4 impacts outlined by aboriginal communities. 5 Again, I would like to draw the Boards 6 attention to the Mackenzie Valley Environmental Impact Review 7 Boards comments regarding the Diavik process, and views from 8 the Diavik Diamond Project comprehensive study October, '99. 9 In this report the Mackenzie Valley 10 Environmental Impact Review Board acknowledged, that without 11 the -- without the completion of IBA's, neither the Board, 12 nor the Minister, can determine the effectiveness of the 13 treatment of socio-economic effects. 14 The Board acknowledged this information was 15 needed to assess mitigation measures. Once again, I ask the 16 Board to seriously consider their comments in this document, 17 and how they plan to justify their assessment without this 18 pertinent information. 19 I do not want to take up any more of your 20 time, except to say to the Board, please consider the 21 documents submitted to the Public Registry, and discussed 22 throughout this process, in the context of aboriginal people, 23 their culture, and their future generations. 24 The NSMA has not had sufficient resources to 25 have our expert resource -- witnesses available to present

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  1  the outstanding issues, or answer questions during these
  2  public hearings. 
  3                 So, I urge the Board to review the documents
  4  we have provided to the Public Registry, to supplement, and
  5  clarify points made during my presentations. 
  6                 We have an opportunity, and an obligation to
  7  ensure this EA addresses the concerns of aboriginal
  8  communities, we must take it. 
  9                 We are encouraged by what we've heard this
 10  week, however, we must recommend this project to a further
 11  review, so that we can be confident aboriginal people, and
 12  the environment are protected.  Thank you. 
 13                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms. Johnson.  
 14                 Fisheries and Oceans...?
 15                 MS. JULIE DAHL:   Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 
 16  This is Julie Dahl, from Department of Fisheries and Oceans. 
 17  The Department would like to thank the Review Board for the
 18  opportunity to present our outstanding issues with respect to
 19  the proposed Snap Lake Diamond Project. 
 20                 We have listened closely throughout this
 21  public hearing in order to seek resolution of our outstanding
 22  issues, and to ensure that all issues of interest to DFO have
 23  been identified and adequately addressed. 
 24                 We have heard that there are still
 25  discrepancies as to the quantity and quality of mine water

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1 that will ultimately be discharged to, and impact on, Snap -- 2 the water of Snap Lake. 3 With respect to metals, DFO would like to 4 recommend that the forms and state of metals of concern, such 5 as chromium, in the discharge and in Snap Lake, be clearly 6 stated. 7 And that thresholds for treatment, such as the 8 coagulation of filtration described by De Beers as optional, 9 be based as a starting point on meeting CCME criteria in the 10 discharge, as this would afford the greatest protection to 11 the aquatic community of Snap Lake. 12 De Beers claims conservatism throughout their 13 assessment, the application of CCME would continue this 14 approach. 15 De Beers assessed various treatment plant 16 configurations to address the issue of metals in the 17 discharge, and presented their findings in a technical 18 memorandum on treatment alternatives. 19 In our technical report addendum of March 20 14th, DFO noted that without data to support De Beers' choice 21 of treatment approach, reviewers cannot assess whether the 22 most environmentally beneficial approach was chosen, and 23 whether impacts due to metals in the discharge have been 24 mitigated to the extent possible. 25 DFO, therefore, recommends that the data to

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1 support the treatment approach chosen by De Beers be provided 2 for review. 3 Further, we have heard that the Impact 4 Assessment is based on achieving a discharge concentration of 5 five (5) milligrams per litre of TSS, and the associated 6 metals in that fraction. 7 If, however, difficulties are encountered in 8 continually achieving this lever -- level, TSS may be greater 9 than the five (5) milligram per litre, and metals are likely 10 to be proportionately higher in the discharge above those 11 concentrations assessed in the EA. 12 It is not clear if a TSS value of five (5) 13 milligrams per litre is a best case scenario for a 14 conservative estimate on what is achievable. 15 The potential difficulties in continuously 16 achieving five (5) milligrams per litre of TSS, supports the 17 need for optimizing treatment approaches from the onset to 18 ensure metal concentrations do not exceed those assessed for 19 impact, and ideally, meet more protective CCME values. 20 Should the project proceed, a TSS 21 concentration of no more than five (5) milligrams per litre 22 can be allowed to ensure impacts are not greater than 23 assessed, this of course, will be the role of the Land and 24 Water Board to set, but will have direct and important 25 relationship to the approach taken in the EA.

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1 With respect to TDS, given the possible 2 discrepancies with TDS loading predictions, the issue should 3 be resolved, and if necessary, new predictions be provided 4 prior to the conclusion of the EA. 5 DFO has identified concern with the TDS 6 concentrations predicted by De Beers, and the impacts to the 7 aquatic community of Snap Lake. 8 Discussion is needed on what mitigations are 9 available to address elevated TDS, for example, extending the 10 use of grouting to mitigate flows, and the environmental 11 considerations for such an approach; given that the use of 12 grout itself can increase TDS concentrations. Thank you. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms. Dahl. 14 Ms. Teillet, Dogrib Treaty 11...? 15 MS. JEAN TEILLET: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 16 Before I start I want to convey the Grand Chief's apologies 17 for not being here. 18 He felt the need to go back to his family. He 19 said he's been away too long, and he needed to go home. And 20 he thought the Board would probably understand. 21 So, I'm going to do my best to convey our 22 closing comments. I'm not going to reiterate, or remind the 23 Board about our opening comments, with respect to the Dogrib 24 agreement, I'm sure you heard it, and it's on the record, and 25 particularly the obligations that that puts on the Board.

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1 I'd rather like to focus our remarks on the 2 task that is before the Board right now, the determination of 3 whether there are likely to be significant adverse impacts 4 arising from this project, and if so, whether these effects 5 can be mitigated. 6 In other words, I guess the question is: Are 7 we going to reject the proposal, are we going to recommend it 8 with terms and conditions, are we going to send it to review? 9 In answering these questions, the Dogrib 10 Treaty 11 council would like to state our conclusions, with 11 respect to some of the outstanding issues. 12 These generally fall into three (3) 13 categories: hydro-geology, Snap Lake water quality, and the 14 caribou. 15 And finally, we'd like to make, what we hope 16 are helpful recommendations on how to deal with the 17 cumulative effects. 18 With respect to water, the Dogrib Treaty 11 19 council says that there are still uncertainties with respect 20 to water. We've heard varying opinions as to whether or not 21 the project is likely to have significant adverse effects. 22 De Beers stated that it has confidence in its 23 predicted potential maximum flows, and potential water 24 quality variability from the mine workings. They also state 25 confidence in their contingency plans for water storage and

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1 treatment. 2 Dogribs take the position, that there are 3 remaining uncertainties associated with De Beers predictions 4 of water volumes and water quality. 5 And these uncertainties fall into two (2) main 6 areas: Basically, insufficient data and contingency 7 planning. 8 Now, with respect to hydro-geologic 9 characterization, Dr. Wilbur listed several areas where he 10 said that the data is insufficient. I'm just going to 11 briefly list them. He said, there were lack of any samples 12 below a hundred and fifty-five (155) metres. 13 He said, there was a lack of data with respect 14 to country rock, lack of data to inform us with respect to 15 hydro-static conditions of the groundwater environment 16 outside the working zone. 17 Lack of data, with respect to how well the 18 surface water in the lakes is connected to the deeper 19 groundwater zones. 20 Lack of groundwater field data that calculate 21 large or small scale horizontal gradients. Lack of data to 22 quantify the role of fractures in the groundwater flow. 23 And finally, he expressed concern with respect 24 to model calibration because there were very few data points, 25 and no long term data.

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1 Now, with respect to groundwater quality, the 2 Dogrib Treaty 11 Council has the following concerns, which 3 mostly arise also do to insufficiency of data. 4 The connate water concentrations and profiles 5 below a hundred and fifty-five (155) metres of depth. Again, 6 variability modeling, total dissolved solids concentration 7 values, mine flow, and again, contingency plan for higher 8 than expected mine inflows. 9 And including in that, we looked at the -- 10 that Dr. Wilbur expressed concerns about expanding the water 11 management pond, and -- or the -- and flooding parts of the 12 mine, as to whether those were realistic, or ultimately would 13 be helpful as contingency plans. 14 Now, with respect to Snap Lake water quality, 15 and fish and aquatic habitat, the Dogribs are of the opinion 16 that some issues remain outstanding. 17 The effect of the change in phosphorus 18 balance, the effect of reduced dissolved oxygen 19 concentrations, the effect of total dissolved solids 20 toxicity, impacts to benthic invertebrates, and interactive 21 effects. 22 Now, on our second topic, on wildlife. I'd 23 like to point out again, that the Independent Environmental 24 Monitoring Agency data shows that there is statistical 25 evidence showing that we already have minor adjustments by

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1 the caribou to the BHP Project. 2 And I'm going to say what I understood Dr. 3 Gunn to state, and hope I got it right. Dr. Gunn -- our 4 understanding is that Dr. Gunn stated in her presentation, 5 that although she had not examined the Independent 6 Environmental Monitoring Agencies data, this kind of minor 7 adjustment to a development was what she would have expected. 8 And we also note, that the Alaska Report shows 9 that this kind of minor adjustment is merely the first stage, 10 and that we can expect, as density of development increases, 11 major shifts in the use of habitat. 12 Dr. Gunn also pointed out to us that caribou 13 react slowly. And I believe she used the term as saying that 14 something like, we might not know for as much as fifteen (15) 15 years. 16 Now, we note that even if it takes fifteen 17 (15) years for us to recognize the effects in caribou, that 18 is still within the projected life of this mine. 19 Now, there is traditional knowledge, which is 20 now on this record, in this hearing, that shows that the 21 caribou are already acting differently than they have in the 22 past. 23 And we also have a prediction from some 24 aboriginal people of further changes. And as you heard 25 yesterday in the quote that the Dogribs read into the record,

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1 with respect TEK by Dr. Batiste (phonetic), and Dr. Henderson 2 (phonetic), traditional knowledge is better at predictions 3 than scientific knowledge. 4 Now, the evidence also showed that a major 5 shift in the habitat use by the caribou would have 6 significant effects on aboriginal peoples who rely on this 7 area. 8 This would be significant negative social, 9 cultural, spiritual, and economic consequences for all of the 10 aboriginal peoples in the Mackenzie Valley. 11 So, as a result, we say that this Board is in 12 possession of sufficient evidence to make a finding that 13 there are likely to be significant adverse impacts on the 14 caribou. 15 Now, the Dogrib Treaty 11 Council is not 16 saying that De Beers Snap Lake Project, in and of itself, is 17 the cause of the significant adverse impact on the caribou. 18 However, it's contribution is what we're 19 calling another brick in the wall of the development. And 20 that can be considered a cumulative effect within the meaning 21 of the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act. So, this is 22 a dilemma for us. What are we supposed to do about it? 23 We've identified a significant adverse impact, 24 but unfortunately, and I really would like to underline this, 25 there is no known mitigation for that identified impact,

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1 short of dismantling this development wall that we're talking 2 about. 3 Now, there have been several suggestions that 4 we set up a regional monitoring agency, to gather knowledge 5 on the effects of the wall cumulatively. 6 And indeed, the Dogribs fully support this 7 recommendation, however, we note, as we emphasized earlier, 8 monitoring is not mitigation. 9 If indeed, the caribou are already being 10 effected in a minor way, and the slippery slope we're sliding 11 down here is leading to major effects on the caribou, then 12 monitoring is simply going to provide us with ring side 13 seats, and high powered magnifying glasses with which we can 14 more closely observe the long, slow destruction of these 15 magnificent caribou herds. 16 Monitoring will do nothing to mitigate 17 development effects, nothing to save the herd, and nothing to 18 save the lifestyle of the aboriginal people who rely on those 19 herds. 20 The Dogribs are deeply concerned that 21 monitoring seems to be the only recommendation that has been 22 discussed, so far, to come forward to deal with cumulative 23 effects. 24 So, we ask ourselves, are there other ways to 25 assess and deal with these cumulative effects, other than

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1 monitoring. 2 As we've stated before, the -- with respect to 3 this, De Beers' project is just another brick in the wall. 4 Dogribs pose this question to this public hearing, and to the 5 Board: Given that we've accepted the placement of the Snap 6 Lake brick in the wall, given if we do, but say it's a given, 7 how many more bricks are we going to add to the wall? 8 We think this a very pertinent question. And 9 it may be that we should all consider authorizing this Snap 10 Lake project as the last project that the wall can support. 11 It may mean that we decide to take a 12 development hiatus on the wall. Now, please note, I'm not 13 saying a development hiatus in all of the Mackenzie Valley, 14 I'm saying that we might want to consider a development 15 hiatus for the wall, at least until we get sufficient 16 information to see what the effect of the existing density on 17 the wall is on the environment. 18 Now, we say this hiatus is not a holiday from 19 development, and it can be used to fill two (2) specific 20 needs. 21 And the first, is the need for comprehensive 22 planning in the Mackenzie Valley. We note that decisions 23 about the conditions for industrial activities in the 24 Mackenzie Valley are made by territorial, Federal, and now, 25 by aboriginal bodies.

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1 However, communication and coordination among 2 these bodies is, to say the least, somewhat weak and 3 sporadic. 4 Now, developers have, in the past, exploited 5 these weaknesses, and I know this Board is very aware of the 6 -- what I will call, the BHP exploitation of what happened 7 last year in the extension pipe line. 8 The difference between this Board, and the 9 Water Board, and I know that Mr. Wray knows what we're 10 talking about. So, what we say is that environmental 11 assessment, licencing, and permitting decisions have been 12 happening on a case by case basis. 13 And they have been made without a Mackenzie 14 Valley wide comprehensive plan that would identify the scope, 15 intensity, direction, or consequences of these activities. 16 Now, similarly, project specific 17 rehabilitation of disturbed habitat is also planned without 18 an overall plan to identify valley wide land use goals, 19 objectives, performance criteria, or monitoring requirements. 20 We see little consideration has been given to 21 how different future trajectories would be viewed by 22 different groups, especially by aboriginal people. 23 We're suggesting that what is needed is a 24 Mackenzie Valley wide land use plan, actually, a plan 25 composed of two (2) -- two (2) plans because we say there are

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1 two (2) kinds of comprehensive planning that are needed to 2 better explain and manage the environmental effects of 3 development in the Mackenzie Valley. 4 The first, we say, is a comprehensive valley 5 wide land use plan to guide industrial development, and 6 assist in planning for the ongoing with, and the eventual 7 departure, of the diamond industry from the region. 8 I think the plan should identify land use 9 goals. It should be based on the needs of the land, fish, 10 and wildlife, not based on the needs of development. 11 The plan should give substantial weight to 12 aboriginals subsistence harvesting activities. It should 13 include specific performance criteria, and monitoring 14 requirements, tied to restoration and rehabilitation 15 objectives. 16 And, it should provide an inventory of current 17 facilities, including an assessment of the nature and extent 18 of existing contamination. 19 The plan should also include protected areas. 20 And we also note that these protected areas could function as 21 control areas that would be -- could be accessible to 22 researchers. 23 Dogribs believe that even if changes occur in 24 the political, or market arrangements, or other factors come 25 into play that make this plan obsolete, the exercise of

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1 creating a comprehensive plan would provide a shared vision 2 of goals for the Mackenzie Valley. 3 And it would help to identify areas where 4 knowledge is inadequate, and it would thus help to guide 5 research and monitoring. 6 And it goes without saying that such a valley 7 wide land use plan must be done with the full partnership of 8 aboriginal peoples. 9 The second need is for a coordinated, 10 comprehensive research plan. This plan should include a 11 regional assessment of ecological and human values that have 12 various degrees of sensitivity to disturbance, with a view to 13 ranking their importance and the urgency of addressing them. 14 Important research questions developed through 15 collaborative efforts of scientists, aboriginal peoples, 16 local communities, industry and regulatory agencies, and the 17 identification of key indicators of environmental status and 18 trends and how they'll be measured. 19 What we're saying is, this is the kind of 20 planning that needs to happen, and it needs to happen now, 21 because what we have is the tail wagging the dog, we have 22 industry setting the development trends and the whole tone 23 for how this Mackenzie Valley is going to move into the 24 future. 25 As we hope you realize, our suggestions go far

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1 beyond monitoring, and they also go -- well, what we should 2 say is they go beyond project specific monitoring, and they 3 also go beyond cumulative effects impact monitoring, which 4 are the only other alternatives we've heard to date. 5 The Dogrib Treaty 11 Council states 6 categorically that it is not enough to simply recognize that 7 there are cumulative effects, especially on the caribou and 8 then just monitor those effects. 9 The Dogrib urge us all, everybody, Government, 10 Aboriginal groups, this -- and regulatory agencies and 11 industry, to take action to engage in land use planning and 12 research needed, so that we can take action before it's too 13 late. 14 The Dogribs believe that the above actions 15 taken to identify and reduce the undesirable effects of 16 interactions amongst development effectors, and the habitat 17 animal and Aboriginal people receptors, should greatly 18 improve the quality and quantity of data in future decision 19 making. 20 However, we know that we are likely never 21 going to know enough to be absolutely certain. Dogribs must 22 proceed to live and prosper in this Mackenzie Valley in the 23 face of uncertainties, and we know the information will never 24 be sufficient to eliminate uncertainty and future problem 25 solving.

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1 So, we therefore remind the Board about our 2 earlier comments on the precautionary principle, and I have a 3 copy here of the case -- the Spray Tech case, which I will 4 hand up for the -- to be placed on the public record. I 5 don't know if I can hand it up right now, and then it's done, 6 thank you. 7 In paragraph 31, is the operative paragraph, 8 if you want to take note of that. 9 We say, however, that despite the 10 precautionary principle and perhaps taking it into account, 11 we say there is enough information for the Board to make its 12 assessment of whether or not there's likely to be a 13 significant adverse impact on the basis of the cumulative 14 effect information before you. 15 This means the Board can, under Section 128 of 16 the MVRMA, recommend terms and conditions for this project, 17 that address these cumulative effects, both for the proponent 18 and for Government. 19 In conclusion, the Dogribs said that the Board 20 should find that the De Beers Snap Lake Project is likely to 21 have significant adverse impacts, but we do not ask the Board 22 to reject the project, rather we ask the Board to apply terms 23 and conditions to the De Beers Snap Lake Project to address 24 the issues raised above with respect to water, caribou and 25 the cumulative effects.

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1 That concludes my comments. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms. 3 Teillet. 4 Canadian Arctic Resources Committee, Mr. 5 O'Reilly. 6 MR. KEVIN O'REILLY: Thanks, Mr. Wray. I'm 7 just going to ask My Colleague to pass some copies of ours 8 out to the other parties. I think the Board has copies of 9 our written presentation, and once again I'll -- I will not 10 read from it. 11 First off, we'd like to thank the Board for 12 the opportunity to participate in the Hearings. We think 13 that the Hearings were run efficiently and fairly, and we 14 believe all the treaty -- all the parties were treated 15 respectfully, and that there was flexibility shown by the 16 Board to ensure the presentations and questioning relevant to 17 the Proceedings was encouraged, so we -- we thank you for 18 doing that. 19 We also commend the Board for its use of 20 technical experts, given that this was a -- that it remains a 21 very complex project and environmental assessment. 22 We do want to compliment De Beers for their 23 professional and courteous demeanour throughout the Hearings. 24 We -- we appreciate the fact that DIAND did secure the 25 assistance of several independent technical consultants, and

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1 we hope that the -- the funding for them to continue to do 2 this can be found. 3 And we also want to compliment the -- 4 compliment the Aboriginal governments for doing the same, 5 given their limited capacity, and we hope that our limited 6 participation has added some value to the Hearings. 7 We'd like to go over a little bit about what 8 we see as the duties of the Board at this point. We offer 9 some further observations, and we make some recommendations. 10 I guess we see that right now the Board has 11 two (2) task before it, as this environmental assessment 12 starts to wind down. The first is to determine whether 13 there's any significant adverse impacts from this project, 14 and secondly, whether there's any significant public concern. 15 If you find that there is likely significant 16 adverse impact on the environment, the Board must also 17 determine whether these impacts can be prevented with 18 imposition of measures. And like the previous presentation, 19 clearly monitoring is not a preventative measure in itself. 20 What's important is the management capability and response to 21 monitoring. 22 I think it's fair to say that virtually all 23 the Intervenors at this Public Hearing have expressed 24 concerned with the project or in some ways how Government is 25 going to attempt to manage this development.

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1 We do offer some -- some thoughts on how 2 significance can be considered, and I'm not going to read 3 those points for you, they're -- they're part of our written 4 submission. 5 In terms of significant adverse impact 6 determination, CARC is not in a position to independently 7 assess the likelihood of significant adverse impacts to the 8 environment from a potential Snap Lake Diamond Mine. 9 But it's pretty obvious to us that there's 10 conflicting views as to whether there's appropriate baseline 11 information to analyze and predict the impact of this 12 development on the environment and people. 13 There are also conflicting views as to whether 14 all the impacts have been identified, and whether they've 15 been properly assessed. 16 These issues have been raised by the 17 Aboriginal parties to this Proceeding, by GNWT, DIAND and 18 some of the Board's own experts, and they generally fall in 19 the areas of socio-economic matters, wildlife, water and 20 cumulative effects. 21 We were also surprised to learn that De Beers 22 did not assess or predict what the effects may be of their 23 use of the winter road for wildlife, and possibly other 24 valued eco -- ecosystem or socio-economic components assessed 25 with the winter road.

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1 We further note that there does not appear to 2 have been any analysis of the potential impacts on the Ahiak 3 Caribou herd by De Beers. 4 I think it's clear that some of the potential 5 impacts of this development are going to be adverse. And 6 that there appears to be considerable uncertainty over the 7 impacts and their predictions, that we don't think should be 8 left to monitoring and adaptive management. 9 Environmental assessment is the proper place 10 for these differences to be sorted out, not the regulatory 11 monitoring phase that some have suggested. 12 What sort of options does the Board have 13 before it now, and I don't want to go into a great amount of 14 detail here, but they're set out in Section 128.1 of the 15 Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act. 16 One (1) -- one (1) of the options is for you 17 to find that an environmental impact review is not necessary, 18 that this can simply go on to the regulatory process. 19 You could also find that there are significant 20 adverse environmental impacts, and that you could order an 21 environmental impact review. 22 You could find that there's significant 23 adverse environmental impacts, and recommend that the project 24 go ahead, based on the imposition of measures to prevent 25 those impacts.

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1 You could find that there's significant public 2 concern and then you'd have to order an impact review. 3 Finally, you could find that there are 4 significant adverse impacts that cannot be justified, and 5 then you would go ahead and reject the -- the project. 6 We cert -- certainly don't envy the -- the 7 Board, in making the -- a difficult determination on which of 8 these options is the best. I guess we -- we'd want to raise 9 a few questions at this point. Does the Board have the 10 necessary information to decide whether all the impacts have 11 been properly identified and assessed? 12 If the Board finds that the development is 13 likely to cause a significant adverse impact, can that impact 14 be prevented and how? 15 We think that it's really necessary for the 16 Board to know with some certainty, what the mitigation 17 measures are and how effective they will be in preventing an 18 impact. 19 Is it sufficient for the Board to recommend 20 that a series of agreements be negotiated? What are their 21 timing in relationship to regulatory approvals that allow the 22 construction or operation of the mine? 23 What level of detail should the Board have in 24 making the determination of whether the preventative measures 25 can mitigate any significant adverse impacts?

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1 I guess, we feel it's difficult to understand 2 how there can be much certainty over the measures to prevent 3 adverse impacts, in the absence of the agreements that have 4 been the subject of a lot of discussion over the last few 5 days. 6 And I guess we -- we think that there's some 7 merit in having such agreements on the public registry, prior 8 to the Board making a determination on whether mitigative 9 measures can prevent significant adverse impacts from the 10 Snap Lake Mine. 11 I'm going to move on now to some observations, 12 we did review the relevance of our recommendations from our 13 opening statement. We firmly believe that they have been 14 supported and in fact, reinforced through the submissions and 15 questioning at these Hearings. We fine tuned some of these 16 recommendations and I'm not going to spend a lot of time 17 reading them, thankfully. 18 We do want to go back to the issue of 19 participant funding, we note that some of the Aboriginal 20 parties at the Hearing did not want to be questioned, given 21 their limited capacity or inability to bring forward their 22 technical advisors. We believe that in itself was a clear 23 demonstration of a need for participant funding in this type 24 of Proceeding. And we've offered a couple of recommendations 25 there, some ideas for you, and we hope that you can follow up

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1 on them. 2 On the issue of cumulative effects and 3 integrated resource management, we did provide, as we 4 committed to on the first day, some smaller versions of the 5 two (2) maps that we had posted on the wall. 6 There was one (1) additional map that we've 7 also filed, that shows a high induced development scenario 8 for the Slave Geological Province, and we referred to this 9 map in our opening statement, and we're thankful for our 10 consultant, and actually having completed a -- a good draft 11 of that. 12 So, you -- you have three (3) maps now before 13 you. We did provide them to the other parties and there were 14 extra copies, I know, available on the table outside. 15 The reason why we've give -- we've given you 16 these maps is that we hope that they can assist the Board in 17 understanding the regional context for this project, and a 18 potential for regional cumulative effects. 19 We believe that it should be clear to the 20 Board that there is significant concern around the issue of 21 cumulative effects in the Slave Geological Province, and we 22 point out that this has been ongoing issue since the BHP 23 Environmental Assessment Panel. 24 We see that there's a critical need for 25 thresholds or limits of acceptable change to be developed

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1 collectively by all the stakeholders, to ensure that there 2 are no irreversible and undesirable adverse cumulative 3 effects from a development boom that's currently under way in 4 the Slave Geological Province. 5 We want to note again that there are 6 unfulfilled commitments on the part of Government, in 7 relation to cumulative effects. We think that it's fair to 8 say that there are some technological, methodological and 9 jurisdictional challenges, but yesterday we heard that there 10 are also financial hurdles. 11 No funds have been identified this year for 12 the cumulative effects assessment management framework, and 13 other critical components of this work, and there is no 14 commitment to long term funding. I certainly don't blame the 15 representative here from DIAND for that, I want to make that 16 very clear. 17 We did offer a recommendation on this issue, 18 oh, I just -- sorry, we want to point out a few other issues, 19 some missing components of that framework, and there's some 20 commonality between some of the things we're going to say in 21 our last presentation. 22 We too agree that there's a need for land use 23 planning on the Northwest Territory side, the Slave 24 Geological Province. 25 We support the call of the Dogrib Treaty 11

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  1  Council for more effective, fully staffed and publicly
  2  reported inspection and enforcement by DIAND on permits and
  3  licenses in the NWT.
  4                 It's important for you to know that DIAND's
  5  current policy of non-disclosure on inspection reports, where
  6  there's -- they have a non-disclosure policy on inspection
  7  reports where there's any instance of non-compliance.
  8                 This makes it virtually impossible for the
  9  public to actually know what's going on out there, and I
 10  undertake to provide a copy of a -- of an e-mail that I
 11  received from the Regional Director General on this issue,
 12  for the public registry, for the benefit of the Board and the
 13  public.
 14                 I think it's also important to note that there
 15  are no reclamation standards for mine closure in the
 16  Northwest Territories.  There is a vague commitment in the
 17  June 2002 Mine Site Reclamation Policy, but we really need
 18  those standards in place.
 19                 I'm not going to read the -- the second
 20  recommendation, but once again we need to have a recommitment
 21  from the Federal Government on this cumulative effects
 22  assessment management framework, and the cumulative impact
 23  monitoring program.
 24                 I guess one (1) sentence we've added here is
 25  that the Board may also wish to consider what specific

282
  1  commitments or support from De Beers is appropriate, for the
  2  timely and effective implementation of the -- the two (2)
  3  measures that I mentioned.
  4                 On the issue of a fair return to the Crown and
  5  fair distribution of the revenues, there hasn't been a lot of
  6  discussion around this perhaps, but we've heard little
  7  convincing evidence of the -- that Governments have seriously
  8  considered how to make an inherently unsustainable practice,
  9  namely diamond mining, contribute towards a sustainable
 10  development and diversification of our economy, without
 11  building up a dependence on diamonds.
 12                 It's clear to us that GNWT needs more money to
 13  cope with development, but it is not willing to raise the
 14  funds through new taxation where we can keep all of the
 15  revenues, there's no clawbacks, at least within the time
 16  frame of the current formula funding arrangement.
 17                 We have the same two (2) recommendations in
 18  terms of a fair return to the Crown, and we think that there
 19  needs to be a public review of the mine -- mineral royalty
 20  and taxation regime, and we think that the Board should make
 21  some recommendations about targeted use of revenues from non-
 22  renewable resource development to help diversify our economy
 23  and promote more sustainable development.
 24                 On the issue of socio-economic and
 25  environmental agreements and impact and benefit agreements, I

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1 think we heard some overwhelming support for the completion 2 of these agreements, at least before construction and 3 operation of the mine. 4 Some have even ventured to say that these 5 agreements should be before the Board, in advance of their 6 report, on this environmental assessment. And we believe 7 that should be the case as well. We believe these -- these 8 recommend -- or these agreements should be in place before 9 any approvals are issued that would allow construction or 10 operation of the development. 11 We request that the Board consider making an 12 amendment to the scheduled closure date for the public 13 registry, as to allow for the filing of the socio-economic 14 agreement, and the environmental agreements, prior to the 15 issuance of your report on this environmental assessment. 16 I have a few words here about climate change. 17 In my quick review of what De Beers had estimated as their 18 greenhouse gas emissions, and it appears to me that the Snap 19 Lake project alone, will result in a 10 percent increase in 20 the emissions of greenhouse gas -- gases, from the baseline 21 year of 1990 for Northwest Territories emissions. 22 And there doesn't seem to be much effort on 23 the part of Government to evaluate this project, in light of 24 our Kyoto commitments. I think that's understandable, given 25 that we only ratified the Kyoto protocol during the course of

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1 this environmental assessment. 2 But we -- we request that you ask the -- the 3 responsible Ministers to assess this project, in light of 4 Canada's ratification of the Kyoto protocol, and that 5 procedures be developed to ensure that all future 6 developments in the Mackenzie Valley receive similar 7 consideration. 8 Finally, I want to touch now on the 9 determination that you have to make as a Board, under Section 10 128.1 of the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act. 11 Given the public concerns expressed by CARC 12 and others at this hearing, particularly those from directly 13 -- the directly affected Aboriginal parties, we think it 14 would be difficult to conclude that the issues and concerns 15 that have been raise are not significant. 16 Furthermore, the Government of the Northwest 17 Territories, and some other parties have raised issues around 18 the adequacy of baseline information, on which the impacts 19 were predicted. The need to test impact hypothesis, and a 20 lack of details on mitigation measures. 21 Based on this, we conclude that there is a 22 high level of uncertainty regarding the impacts on this 23 project, and their probability or likelihood that once again, 24 there's high uncertainty around the probability, high 25 uncertainty around the likelihood of these impacts.

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1 We feel that there is substantial evidence to 2 support a finding of significant adverse effects from this 3 project, on the basis of some of the evidence that you have 4 before you. 5 But given that there's tremendous uncertainty, 6 we feel that in the face of this uncertainty, we think it 7 prudent for the Board to exercise the precautionary 8 principle, and determine that a significant adverse impact is 9 likely from this project. 10 And finally, we -- we recommend that the 11 Mackenzie Valley Environment Impact Review Board order an 12 impact review of the Snap Lake Project, based on a finding of 13 significant public concern, and the likelihood of a 14 significant adverse environmental impact. 15 Thank you very much for your patience. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. I 17 have next up, INAC, GNWT and then we'll close with the -- 18 from De Beers. But the Chair drank a bottle of water, so he 19 needs to take about three (3) minutes, so if you'll just bear 20 with us and just -- we'll take a quick three (3) or four (4) 21 minutes and we'll come right back, thank you. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 6:52 p.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 7:00 p.m. 25

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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, ladies and 2 gentlemen. The next presentation is Indian and Northern 3 Affairs Canada. Mr. Livingstone...? 4 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Thank you, sir. In 5 the interests of time I think I can get this done, certainly, 6 in less than an hour. 7 Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before I summarize our 8 position on the technical issues related to water quality, 9 I'd like to make some general observations. 10 We've been somewhat bemused by the absolute 11 uncertainty exhibited by De Beers and its experts in many 12 areas, and particularly with respect to water quality. For 13 example, the bold assertion by De Beers that there will be 14 not the loss of a single species of any kind, is both 15 startling and unsubstantiated. 16 Long experience has shown us that caution 17 accompanied by a strong dose of humility is essential in the 18 North. Over-confidence is a dangerous thing. 19 The Elders have spoken last night, and we, are 20 agreed. If this project proceeds, it must do so with great 21 care and caution. Immediate attention needs to be paid by De 22 Beers to gathering the additional environmental baseline 23 information necessary to support its project. 24 De Beers also needs to further develop 25 rigorous and focussed monitoring programs, an effective

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1 adaptive environmental management program and robust 2 contingency planning. 3 The monitoring programs carried out by De 4 Beers need to be done in the context of regional cumulative 5 effects monitoring, whether through a regional body or 6 through an NWT-wide one (1). An environmental agreement is 7 necessary to set the context for that monitoring. 8 Whether an arms length NWT-wide research and 9 monitoring centre will be established remains to be seen, but 10 the concept appears to have widespread support and is one (1) 11 that we'll be actively pursuing over the next weeks and 12 months. 13 Now, to the technical issues. With regard to 14 geotechnical, geothermal and geochemical issues for the North 15 Pile, our primary outstanding issues concerns the proponents 16 assessment of the behaviour of the pile during, and more 17 importantly, following mine operations. 18 The proponents analyses were previously 19 portrayed as the expected results and have been presented 20 here as conservative worst case. We do not agree that the 21 analyses represent conservative worst case or even probable 22 scenarios. 23 We note, in particular, that the proponent was 24 not able to identify -- to specify, at this Hearing, the 25 approximate time when the pile would be completely frozen,

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1 and the proponent did not contest any of our criticisms of 2 its geotechnical, geothermal and geochemical modelling 3 procedures or results. Our position is that there remains 4 uncertainty regarding the performance of the pile. 5 We note that the proponent has stated that 6 there is no prior experience in the construction and 7 operation of a paste pile in an Arctic environment. That 8 said, we feel that the outstanding issues are manageable, 9 with further studies, rigorous and focussed monitoring, 10 effective adaptive environmental management and solid 11 contingency planning. 12 Outstanding technical considerations with 13 regard to the North Pile, and there are a number of them, can 14 be dealt with during the regulatory process. 15 With respect to hydrogeological issues, we 16 remain unconvinced with the level -- that the level of 17 certainty ascribed by De Beers, to water quality predictions 18 exists. De Beers has characterized, in these Hearings, that 19 the occurrence of TDS, chloride and connate groundwater at 20 concentrations two (2) to three (3) times those assumed in 21 the EA, is unscientific, illogical, impossible and 22 improbable. 23 In our judgement and scientific opinion, such 24 occurrences are not only logical and possible, but are 25 probable. De Beers in intransigence with higher TDS,

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1 chloride and connate groundwater, and hence mine water 2 discharge, and in Snap Lake as noted, and in our view, is in 3 sharp contrast to its stated commitment to conservatism and 4 realism. 5 In essence, De Beers disputes our concern re 6 TDS, chloride, by involving a new concept, the flow versus 7 concentration teeter totter. De Beers contends that it 8 cannot have high flow and high concentration. However, the 9 North Lake's data refutes this concept. 10 There is both high TDS, chloride and flow 11 permeability measured in north lakes monitoring wells. We 12 remain concerned that Snap Lake is in both a high flow and 13 high concentration environment. 14 De Beers did not want to use the North Lake's 15 data because it considers those data to be within a discharge 16 zone. However, the available head data do not conclusively 17 support this -- this exclusion. And the data from Well 18 MW0205, adjacent to Snap Lake, shows higher concentrations of 19 TDS and chloride than assumed by De Beers for the entire mine 20 operation. 21 We remain convinced that concentration of TDS 22 in the range of two (2) to three (3) times higher than those 23 projected by De Beers, is a realistic possibility. 24 With respect to water quality, there remains 25 the likelihood of significant adverse environmental effects

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1 related primarily to increased TDS concentrations in Snap 2 Lake. 3 TDS, including calcium and chloride at 4 concentrations two (2) to threefold above the levels De Beers 5 considers among, "the worst things that could happen", will 6 likely result in loss of species, changes in food chains and 7 other effects such as reduced growth and reproduction in the 8 remaining species. 9 Functional communities will remain in Snap 10 Lake but not to the same extent as is presently the case. 11 The Lake will not be dead but it will be impaired, and this 12 impairment will remain for decades past abandonment, before 13 recovery occurs. 14 And it is likely that the recovery will not 15 result in exactly the same eco-system as presently exists in 16 Snap Lake. And that, in our view, is the environmental cost 17 of doing business. 18 It's tolerable, to use Stella Swanson's buffet 19 analogy. The table will be sparser, the food not as 20 appetizing but it will be edible. It will sustain life. 21 We recognize the Board has in front of it, 22 divergent opinions from DIAND and its experts, and De Beers 23 and its experts. The Board and its experts have some work to 24 do in bridging the gap. 25 I'd suggest, though, that it may be less

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1 important to bridge the gap, to try to develop a consensus on 2 the degree of significance of the adverse effects, than it is 3 to develop the mitigation measures necessary to ensure the 4 impacts are the minimum possible in the circumstances. 5 Ensuring that there will be improved baseline 6 information, rigorous and focussed environmental monitoring 7 programs, a sound adaptive environmental management regime 8 and robust contingency plans, those are the areas which, in 9 our view, require the Board's greatest attention. 10 So to conclude, we feel that there are no 11 outstanding water quality issues that would prevent this 12 project from proceeding to the regulatory stage, subject to 13 measures developed by the Board. 14 I'd like to thank the Board for its attention. 15 I trust that we've been helpful through or presentations and 16 our interventions throughout the process, and I hope that 17 we'll be able to continue to provide support to the Board in 18 future Environmental Assessments. 19 I do apologise for the relatively early 20 departure of our experts, but I assure you, they stayed as 21 long as they possibly could. 22 In a final note, Charlie, I really hope that I 23 don't read about you in the paper anytime soon. Thank you 24 very much. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr.

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1 Livingstone. We now move to the Government of the Northwest 2 Territories, Mr. Doan...? 3 MR. DOUG DOAN: Mr. Chairman and Members of 4 the Board, my name is Doug Doan. Thank you for this 5 opportunity to provide summary comments on behalf of the 6 Government of the Northwest Territories. 7 We have also listened carefully to the words 8 spoken by the proponent and by the other parties involved in 9 this Hearing. The development of two (2) diamond mines, and 10 the exploration activity by companies like De Beers, has 11 created significant benefits for NWT businesses and the 12 economy. 13 Our northern business community sees continued 14 growth as an important element of our positive investment 15 climate. The development of the De Beers property can 16 contribute to our continued strong economic performance. 17 At the same time, we know that developments of 18 this nature have impacts on the environment and wildlife. 19 These impacts must be understood and mitigated. 20 Progress is evident in a number of areas, but 21 there are still issues outstanding in both the environmental 22 and the socio-economic areas. In my closing remarks, I would 23 like to briefly outline some of these issues and how they can 24 be addressed. 25 De Beers has done an excellent job of

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1 analysing the fiscal and tax benefits resulting from this 2 project. Total cumulative tax and fiscal benefits to Canada 3 were estimated by De Beers at $872 million. The total 4 cumulative tax and fiscal benefits to the Government of the 5 Northwest Territories were estimated at $119 million. 6 This disproportionate sharing of the fiscal 7 and tax benefits, between the Federal Government and the GNWT 8 speaks directly to our desire to maximize the socio-economic 9 benefits to NWT residents, through negotiation of a socio- 10 economic agreement. 11 We appreciate that De Beers has committed, 12 during this Hearing, to a number of specific targets. We 13 look forward to negotiating mutually agreeable targets 14 through the socio-economic agreement process. 15 These targets would specifically address 16 issues, including but not limited to, employment procurement, 17 development of a sustainable secondary industries, including 18 the provision of rough diamonds and training. 19 The agreement also needs to establish 20 commitments to monitor and mitigate cultural impacts and to 21 promote positive social development. It is the socio- 22 economic agreement that provides the GNWT, and the parties, 23 with the formal commitments that the socio-economic impacts 24 predicted by De Beers, will be achieved. It also establishes 25 a process whereby the GNWT and the parties, can work with De

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1 Beers on further mitigation methods when those targets are 2 not achieved. 3 The GNWT respectfully asks the Board to 4 consider the need for a comprehensive socio-economic 5 agreement to complement the impact benefit agreements between 6 the company and the Aboriginal communities. 7 The GNWT would like to see the socio-economic 8 agreement concluded by June 30th, 2003. But in the absence 9 of a completed socio-economic agreement by the time that you 10 make your recommendations, we would ask the Board to 11 recommend that a condition of approval commits De Beers to 12 negotiate a socio-economic agreement which addresses the 13 issues I mentioned. 14 Those issues include but again are not limited 15 to, employment targets, procurement targets, provision of 16 rough diamonds to support secondary industry development, 17 training of NWT residents, monitoring and mitigation of 18 impacts and promotion of positive social development. 19 The GNWT is pleased to have the commitment of 20 De Beers and the interest of DIAND, First Nations and the 21 Metis in entering into an Environmental Agreement. We 22 believe an Environmental Agreement will allow us to do a 23 number of things. 24 Rigorously test environmental and cumulative 25 effects impact predictions, ensure appropriate and effective

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1 site specific monitoring programs are conducted, strengthen 2 regional monitoring programs through links to other project 3 monitoring and links with regional research and monitoring 4 conducted by government. 5 Ensure adequate and effective environmental 6 management plans are in place, including plans for waste 7 management, treatment of contaminated soils, air quality 8 monitoring and emission tracking. Ensure strong and ongoing 9 cooperation with stakeholders and involve stakeholders in 10 adaptive environmental management. 11 The GNWT is prepared to work with De Beers, 12 First Nations, Metis, Federal agency and non-government 13 organizations to ensure comprehensive, cooperative approaches 14 to understanding, monitoring and managing the environmental 15 impacts of this development. 16 The GNWT respectfully ask the Board to 17 consider the need for an Environmental Agreement. We ask the 18 Board to recommend that a condition of approval commits De 19 Beers to negotiate and implement an Environmental Agreement 20 that will ensure that the programs and plans necessary for 21 managing and monitoring impacts are in place before 22 construction begins. 23 However, environmental impacts are not linked 24 just to this project. There are other existing and proposed 25 activities within the Slave Geological Province that give the

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1 people of the NWT cause for concern. We have heard this 2 week, repeated concerns about the potential for increasing 3 human activity in this area, to effect the caribou. 4 While the Snap Lake Project is small in 5 footprint, it will contribute to the cumulative environmental 6 changes in the Slave Geological Province. Therefore, the 7 project must also contribute to the understanding of, and 8 management, of cumulative effects. 9 Unfortunately, the baseline data and analysis 10 conducted by De Beers in their Environmental Assessment, did 11 not contribute significantly to the body of knowledge 12 necessary for managing cumulative effects. 13 However, we are confident that De Beers' 14 commitment to an Environmental Agreement, and their 15 commitment to participate in regional cumulative effects 16 monitoring programs, will help to address this. 17 The need for an integrated and effective 18 approach for cumulative effect, assessment and management in 19 the Slave Geological Province is not a new message. Both the 20 Environmental Assessment Review Panel Report on the EKATI 21 Mine in 1996 and the Comprehensive Study Report on the Diavik 22 Diamond mine in 1999, recognize it was not those specific 23 developments that were likely to result in significant 24 change, but the cumulative impacts of multiple developments. 25 In 1999, in response to the Diavik

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1 Comprehensive Study Report, the Federal Minister of the 2 Environment committed to the development of a regional 3 cumulative effects management framework. 4 In 2001, the National Round Table on the 5 Environment and the Economy identified cumulative effects 6 management as essential for the sustainability of Aboriginal 7 communities in Northern Canada, and recommended the Federal 8 Government invest $25.8 million over six (6) years, to 9 develop and implement cumulative effects management in the 10 NWT. 11 While progress is being made, it has been 12 slow. And as we have heard at this Hearing, funding remains 13 uncertain. Some of the parties at this Hearing have stated 14 that while they are not against development, they are very 15 concerned that there's currently no process to satisfactorily 16 predict, understand, manage or monitor cumulative impacts in 17 the NWT. 18 The proponent has committed to a collaborative 19 approach to monitoring and managing regional cumulative 20 effects. Now we need a process for this to occur. As 21 mentioned earlier, the total cumulative tax and fiscal 22 benefits to the Government of Canada and the GNWT, are 23 disproportionate. 24 We believe that the Government of Canada has 25 the responsibility and the resources to invest in cumulative

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1 effects management, and in doing so, provide some certainty 2 to the people of the NWT that development will only occur in 3 a responsible and environmentally sensitive manner. 4 Therefore, we ask the Board to recommend that 5 the federal commitment to regional cumulative effects 6 assessment and management framework, which was made in 1999, 7 now receive the necessary funding to move quickly towards 8 implementation of the framework components. 9 Thank you very much. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir. We will 11 now move to the final presentation of the day/evening, that 12 of De Beers Canada. Mr. McConnell...? 13 MR. JOHN MCCONNELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, 14 Members of the Board. I want to express my thanks for the 15 Board's conduct of this Public Hearing. We appreciate the 16 Board's careful attention to the presentations and 17 submissions, and your patience throughout this long week. 18 And I commend the Board Members for your personal 19 contribution to public service. 20 Let me also express my appreciation to the 21 Intervenors, and their specialists, and advisors, for the 22 respectful tone -- of their -- for their respectful tone of 23 this hearing. 24 In addition, I want to compliment you for 25 achieving the stated purpose of the establishment of this

299
  1  Board, which is in the words of the MVRMA:
  2                   "To enable residents in the Mackenzie
  3                   Valley to participate in the management of
  4                   its resources for the benefit of the
  5                   residents, and of other Canadians."
  6                 Consultation, and openness are key notes of
  7  the environmental assessment process set up by the MVRMA, and
  8  conducted under the authority of the Board.  These values
  9  have been honoured in practice.
 10                 De Beers has consulted with Aboriginal
 11  communities.  I have personally attended many of these
 12  sessions.  Some of the details are part of the record.  We
 13  intend to carry on consultation as the project goes forward.
 14                 In my opening statement, I submitted that I
 15  would demonstrate that the Snap Lake Diamond Project is not
 16  likely to have a significant adverse impact, and that you
 17  will have good reason to recommend approval of the
 18  development, subject to mitigation measures we have proposed.
 19                 The proceeding this -- proceedings this week
 20  reaffirm my confidence.  This public hearing should likewise
 21  instill the Board with confidence in the merits of the Snap
 22  Lake Diamond Project.
 23                 Early in the development of the project, De
 24  Beers assembled a world-class team of experts, and instructed
 25  them to listen and learn, to investigate, and innovate.  The

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1 result is a sound mining and environmental plan, and a 2 thorough reliable environmental assessment. 3 De Beers is proud to put its name on the EA, 4 and on this project. I am proud to put my name on both. 5 Relevant issues have been analysed from many 6 angles. All initial solutions have been critically reviewed. 7 Consultation has never stopped, and the solutions have been 8 refined and improved throughout the process. 9 In the collective opinion of our team of 10 experienced and capable scientists and engineers, this is a 11 comprehensive, and reliable environmental assessment. 12 The Intervenors have echoed during the 13 hearings what our team has told us, that we listen, and we 14 are responsive. 15 The adaptive management that we plan to use in 16 our environmental management program is not an novel, modern 17 concept. It is a way of life. 18 When we emphasize our commitment to 19 monitoring, we mean we have developed systems to keep abreast 20 of changes, recognizing, for instance, that caribou behaviour 21 may change for reasons that nobody can predict. Our efforts 22 to mitigate have to respond to unforeseeable changes. That 23 is our plan. 24 Harry Simpson said on Thursday evening, 25 something to the effect that no matter who we are, we depend

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1 on water, and meat, and fish, and other products of the earth 2 to live. 3 That sentiment is as wide, as it is simple. 4 We all share the same resources of this land, and our 5 responsibility for its careful stewardship. 6 The values reiterated to us on every occasion 7 by the Elders are the same values by which we live our lives. 8 We have children, we worry about their future. 9 All of us share this planet. We have heard the Elders speak, 10 and we learn from what they say. 11 During this hearing, and throughout our 12 consultation, the Elders have told us to respect the air, the 13 land, and the water, because our lives depend on them. 14 We must cause as little adverse impact as 15 possible. Let me remind you very briefly how our plans will 16 contribute to the well-being of the people, and how we will 17 protect the air, the water, and the land. 18 First, the people. The health and well-being 19 of people is of primary importance to De Beers. This is true 20 for the people who work for De Beers, and for their families, 21 as well as the people in the communities. 22 We spent a lot of time in the communities, 23 listening and learning about social and economic concerns. 24 People told us they have -- they are concerned about 25 employment, education and training, life skills, family

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1 support and culture, business opportunities, and traditional 2 resource use, and ecological integrity. 3 While these are general concerns, and are not 4 are -- and are not specific to our project, we work in 5 partnership with communities, and government to maximize the 6 benefits, and opportunities for people in the north, and to 7 manage and mitigate impacts. 8 De Beers recognizes that our project will not 9 proceed in isolation. Its effects have been considered, 10 along with the other major diamond developments, and other 11 projects and activities that will influence the social and 12 economic fabric of the region. 13 Through a long-term commitment to partnership 14 with communities, and Governments, De Beers will contribute 15 to creation of opportunities and choices at the individual 16 family and community level; creation of wealth through 17 employment, investment and business opportunities; generation 18 of tax and fiscal revenue payments for governments; and a 19 wider distribution of sharing of these opportunities and 20 wealth across communities. 21 Now to air. The design of the project greatly 22 reduces concerns about air quality. For example, dust will 23 be reduced, because mining will be underground in a wet 24 environment, primary ore crushing will also be underground, 25 and ore will be moved by covered conveyor, not trucks.

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1 In addition, the project is designed to 2 minimize energy use, and therefore, the emission of 3 greenhouse gases. Every stated concern about air quality has 4 now been addressed. 5 And, water. De Beers recognizes that Snap 6 Lake is a comparatively small head water lake, and this makes 7 it relatively sensitive to changes in water quality. 8 Through consultation with communities, we have 9 received the message loud and clear, that Snap Lake is 10 important to the people. We heard this again last night from 11 the Elders, who spoke eloquently. 12 The project has been designed to minimize 13 effects on Snap Lake, and downstream water bodies. 14 By confining the main project activities to a 15 small footprint on the Northwest Peninsula, impacts to 16 aquatic habitat will be negligible. 17 The project will include a state of the art 18 water treatment plant, using the best available technology 19 that is practical, and proven in the north. 20 Most of the water entering the mine comes from 21 Snap Lake, and the water treatment plant will ensure that it 22 is clean and clear when it is returned to the lake. 23 De Beers has been listening to, and 24 interacting with communities since 1999, and we have adapted 25 our design, based on concerns that we have heard.

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1 As recently as last month, we were advised the 2 design of the ditch between the North Pile and Snap Lake to 3 prevent seepage to the lake. 4 This was a result of recommendations made by 5 Intervenors. De Beers had been, and remains committed to 6 incorporating all practical measures, to minimize effects on 7 Snap Lake. 8 An issue was raised at the Hearings about 9 possible concentrations of total dissolved solids in connate 10 groundwater. The idea and data presented were not new to De 11 Beers. They have for some time, for part of the available 12 information, an understanding of groundwater flow processes 13 that were considered in preparing the comprehensive 14 environmental assessment. 15 This issue is very important to De Beers. We 16 are confident that our environmental assessment predictions 17 of changes to water quality in Snap Lake strike the right 18 balance between conservative enough that the effects will not 19 be greater than predicted, yet realistic enough that changes 20 are within the realm of what is possible. 21 We looked at how the combination of water 22 quality changes may affect aquatic life in Snap Lake. There 23 will be a balance between the lake-wide stimulatory effects 24 of phosphorus, and the slight negative effects from lower 25 dissolved oxygen in small parts of the lake in mid to late

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1 winter. 2 The change in total dissolved solids is not 3 high enough to cause an effect on aquatic life in Snap Lake. 4 The total overall effect is expected to be small changes in a 5 relative abundance of some algae, zooplankton, and bottom- 6 dwelling organisms, with no elimination of species, and no 7 measurable change in fish populations. 8 De Beers has committed to effective 9 environmental monitoring in the underground mine on-site, and 10 within Snap Lake, to ensure that Snap Lake is protected. 11 The combination of an effective monitoring 12 program, and on-going modelling will verify the environmental 13 assessment predictions, anticipate changes that will occur, 14 and support adaptive management to protect Snap Lake. 15 And finally, to the land. De Beers has 16 designed the project to minimize the footprint, and to 17 incorporate reclamation. As a result, impacts on the land 18 are minimized. 19 De Beers has drawn on many sources of 20 information to assess how wildlife may be affected. As the 21 Board heard this week, the focus has been on caribou, 22 wolverine, and grizzly bear. 23 We have look to traditional knowledge, RWED 24 data, new data that we have collected ourselves, monitoring 25 data from other projects, and the general scientific

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1 literature. De Beers has used all these lines of evidence in 2 the environmental assessment. 3 We appreciate the special place of caribou, as 4 Elders have emphasized last night, and many times before. 5 Based on the experience at Snap Lake and other projects, we 6 know of many things we can do to mitigate impacts. 7 De Beers' objective is zero wildlife mortality 8 as a result of the project. While we cannot absolutely 9 guarantee to meet that objective over the twenty-five (25) 10 year life of the mine, our considered expectation is that we 11 will be very close. 12 Of course, there are other possible effects on 13 wildlife. Questions have been asked about the potential for 14 the project how caribou move through the area, and what the 15 meat -- and what that means to caribou populations. 16 Based on what we see happening at other mines, 17 we expect that when caribou are within a few kilometres of 18 the Snap Lake Diamond Project, they may spend less time 19 eating there. Nevertheless, our careful study has concluded 20 that the effects of caribou populations from the Snap Lake 21 Diamond Project will be undetectable. 22 The bigger concern, as the Board has heard 23 from several sources, is how the cumulative effects of human 24 activity, such as mines, hunting camps, and hunting, combined 25 with natural factors, like insects, harvesting, predation,

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1 and weather, all act together to influence caribou 2 populations across -- across the Slave Geological Province, 3 and beyond. 4 De Beers reiterates our commitment to 5 participate in a practical way of monitoring cumulative 6 effects. 7 Data collected by De Beers, both wildlife 8 populations, notably grizzly gear and wolverine, will like 9 while -- likewise contribute to region-wide information that 10 will in turn, contribute to a broad scale understanding of 11 cumulative effects on these species in particular, and 12 wildlife in general. 13 In closing, the rewards of continuous 14 learning, and -- improvement were evident this week. Not a 15 single presentation at this public hearing demanded that the 16 project be stopped. 17 The Board has heard that pretty much everyone 18 wants the benefits of development. The jobs and careers, the 19 hope and promise, and the economic spin-offs that resource 20 development has brought to communities throughout the history 21 of Canada, but, we all want development in a way that 22 protects the water, the land, and the wildlife. 23 De Beers shares those goals and aspirations. 24 This approval process is not about choice between building 25 and conserving. It is about doing the two (2) together.

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1 We have recognized from the outset that as the 2 developer of the project, it is incumbent on De Beers to 3 achieve the objective of sustainable development. 4 By not only listening, but hearing, we have 5 put together a plan that I personally have every confidence 6 will protect the environment from significant adverse 7 impacts, and will protect the social, cultural, and economic 8 well-being of residents and communities in the Mackenzie 9 Valley. 10 Those are the aims of the Resource Management 11 Act. I sincerely believe that through collaboration and 12 consultation, they are being achieved. 13 Our goal with the Snap Lake Diamond Project is 14 economic growth, balanced by good stewardship. This goal is 15 consistent with the company's overall mission. 16 The mission statement of De Beers was 17 articulated a century ago by Sir Ernest Oppenheimer, and it 18 rings every bit as true today, as it did then. 19 Our mission is to make a profit, but in such a 20 way that we make a real and lasting contribution to the 21 country, and the communities in which we operate. 22 I, respectfully, urge the Board to recommend 23 that the Minister of INAC approve the Snap Lake Diamond 24 Project, and refer it to the Land and Water Board for the 25 final stage of the regulatory project -- regulatory approval.

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1 Thank you very much. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: On behalf of the Mackenzie 7 Valley Environmental Impact Review Board, I would like to 8 thank you all for your patience, and your perseverance over 9 the past five (5) long days and nights. 10 Even though they are gone, I'd like to, in 11 particular on the record, thank the people who probably 12 worked the hardest here this week, and that is the 13 Interpreters. 14 I also wish to commend a caring staff, and all 15 of those who made this hearing proceed as smoothly as it has. 16 To the Board staff, thanks for putting up with 17 me, and to our consultants, we got lots of work to do. 18 The Board understands how much effort it takes 19 to prepare for, and participate in a Hearing like this, and 20 we appreciate your efforts to assist us in understanding this 21 proposed development, and its potential environmental and 22 socio-economic effects. 23 Particular, we want to thank the Elders who 24 attended and shared their knowledge, wisdom and humour with 25 us last night. As indicated then, the Review Board will give

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1 traditional knowledge equal weight, along with scientific 2 information, which we have heard over the last five (5) days. 3 Input from First Nations and Metis is also 4 appreciated, and critical. We thank you for the time and 5 efforts to assist this Board. 6 To the -- the developer, De Beers Canada, 7 DIAND, the Government of the Northwest Territories, and other 8 Government agencies who brought their considerable expertise 9 to bear on the scientific, and other issues in this hearing, 10 thank you, your help is greatly appreciated, and we hope that 11 it will continue. 12 As I'm sure some of you aware, this is the 13 Board's first major environmental assessment, and as such, is 14 still developing its process. 15 Bringing this proceeding to a close has been a 16 challenge for all participants, but the Review Board is 17 determined to continue to develop its processes in a way 18 which will allow us to identify, and deal efficiently with 19 the environmental issues in our environmental assessment 20 process. 21 The Board is also aware of the demands in 22 terms of time and financial resources, which a public hearing 23 can place on all parties. 24 We are particularly sensitive to the capacity 25 issues, which continue to arise from small communities, and

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1 Intervenors. Unfortunately, the Mackenzie Valley Resource 2 Management Act does not include provision to deal with these 3 issues. 4 However, it is a major concern of the Board, 5 and we will continue to raise this issue with Government, as 6 we have done consistently for the past two (2) years. 7 Once the report is in the Minister's hands, it 8 is our intention to do a thorough review of the process, and 9 to take advantage of a lessons learned workshop that we will 10 organize, in order to continue to improve our procedures, and 11 this process, and we would encourage all of the participants 12 in this one (1) to participate in that workshop. 13 As you know, it is our intention to have the 14 report to the Federal Minister by the end of June. We have a 15 lot of work to do yet, but we thank you all very much for 16 your help to date. 17 We stand adjourned. 18 19 --- Upon adjourning at 7:40 p.m. 20 21 Certified Correct, 22 23 _________________ 24 Wendy Warnock, Ms. 25 Court Reporter