1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 November 3rd, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )    (np)
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )   
  5  Katherine Hensel  )    (np)
  6  Megan Ferrier     )    (np)
  7  Murray Klippenstein )    (np)   The Estate of Dudley 
  8  Vilko Zbogar       )            George and George
  9  Andrew Orkin       )  (np)      Family Group
 10  Basil Alexander    )
 11  
 12  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 13  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 14  
 15  Anthony Ross     )   (np)       Residents of
 16  Cameron Neil     )   (np)       Aazhoodena (Army Camp)
 17  Kevin Scullion   )
 18  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stony
 19  Jonathon George  )   (np)       Point First Nation
 20  Colleen Johnson  )   (np)
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )              Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Susan Freeborn   )   (np)
 25  Michelle Pong    )   (np)

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (np)       Lambton Shores
  4  Nora Simpson     )   (np)       Student-at-law
  5  
  6  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  7  Bill Hourigan    )   (np)       Harris
  8  Jennifer McAleer )
  9   
 10  Ian Smith        )   (np)       Robert Runciman
 11  Alice Mrozek     )
 12  
 13  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 14  Jacqueline Horvat )
 15  
 16  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 17  Mary Jane Moynahan    )(np)
 18  Dave Jacklin          )  (np)
 19  Trevor Hinnegan     )
 20  
 21  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 22  Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) (np)       Ontario Provincial Police
 23  Leslie Kaufman     )
 24  
 25

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd) 
  2  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
  3  Karen Jones    )                 Police Association &
  4  Debra Newell     )   (np)       K. Deane
  5  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
  6  Annie Leeks      )   (np)
  7  Jennifer Gleitman )   (np)
  8  Robyn Trask      )
  9  
 10  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal
 11  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
 12  Kimberly Murray   )   (np)
 13  Julian Roy       )
 14  Clem Nabigon     )   (np)
 15  Adriel Weaver     )   (np)       Student-at-Law
 16  
 17  Al J.C. O'Marra  )   (np)       Office of the Chief
 18  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 19  
 20  William Horton   )              Chiefs of Ontario
 21  Matthew Horner   )   (np)
 22  Kathleen Lickers )   (np)
 23  
 24  
 25

5
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd) 
  2  Mark Fredrick    )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
  3  Craig Mills      )   (np)
  4  Megan Mackey     )   (np)
  5  Erin Tully       )   (np)
  6  Peter Lauwers    )
  7  
  8  David Roebuck    )   (np)       Debbie Hutton
  9  Anna Perschy     )
 10  Melissa Panjer   )
 11  Adam Goodman     )   (np)
 12  
 13  Tanya Pagliaroli )              Jeff Bangs
 14  
 15  
 16  
 17  
 18  
 19  
 20  
 21  
 22  
 23  
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 7 4 5 JEFFREY CHRISTOPHER BANGS, Sworn 6 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 9 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 120 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jacqueline Horvat 137 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Alice Mrozek 138 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Lauwers 140 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Anna Perschy 172 12 Cross-Examination by Ms. Leslie Kaufman 184 13 Cross-Examination by Ms. Kim Twohig 191 14 Cross-Examination by Ms. Janet Clermont 199 15 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 205 16 Cross-Examination by Mr. Vilko Zbogar 253 17 18 19 20 Certificate of Transcript 317 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-935 Document Number 2000505. Memo from 4 Jeff Bangs re. Winterization of 5 Ipperwash Provincial Park, November 6 28/'95. 111 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:01 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 9 everybody. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, we call 11 as the next witness Mr. Jeff Bangs. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning, Mr. Bangs. 14 MR. JEFFREY BANGS: Good morning. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Bangs. 16 Do you prefer to swear on the Bible, affirm or use an 17 alternate oath, sir? 18 MR. JEFFREY BANGS: The Bible please. 19 THE REGISTRAR: The bibles on your right. 20 Pick it up with your right hand please, and would you 21 state your name in full for the record. 22 MR. JEFFREY BANGS: Jeffrey Christopher 23 Bangs. 24 25 JEFFREY CHRISTOPHER BANGS, Sworn

1 2 MR. DONALD WORME: Commissioner, I might 3 just take a moment to introduce Mr. Bangs counsel, Tanya 4 Pagliaroli. She is seated here in the front. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 6 morning. 7 8 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 9 Q: Mr. Bangs, I wanted to just start 10 with you -- to go over with you your professional 11 background. And you received a Bachelor Degree in Public 12 Administration from Carleton University in 1992? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And you worked then at Queen's Park 15 as I understand from 1992 until 1995? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And can you tell us the capacities 18 that you were so employed? 19 A: I began working in '92 on a part-time 20 basis as a summer student and subsequently or subsequent 21 to that worked for David Turnbull the MPP for York Mills 22 as a legislative assistant. And then in 1994 having 23 worked on a volunteer basis on his bi-election I worked 24 for Chris Hodgson when he became MPP for Haliburton -- 25 Victoria/Haliburton.

1 Q: And you were an executive assistant-- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- in that capacity as well for Mr. 4 Hodgson? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that has been commonly thought of 7 as political staffer; is that fair? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: Yeah. Now, Mr. Hodgson won a bi- 10 election you just indicated and -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- that's when you commenced your 13 employment with him? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And in March of 1994 he became the 16 MPP did he not? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And you worked with him throughout 19 that period? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And into the election campaign of 22 early '95? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: All right. And Mr. Hodgson was 25 elected as the -- as the MPP, he was the incumbent and

1 was -- and went on to -- to win that election? 2 A: That's correct, in June of 1995. 3 Q: All right. And in -- and at that 4 time you were appointed then by him? 5 A: Yes. When he was sworn into Cabinet 6 and asked to be the Minister of Natural Resources he then 7 asked me very shortly thereafter to be his executive 8 assistant in his minister's office at Natural Resources. 9 Q: And he was -- he also held another 10 ministry as well or another -- another position? 11 A: He was also responsible for the 12 Ministry of Northern Development and Mines and -- 13 Q: And were you his executive assistant 14 in that capacity? 15 A: At a later date. I was -- not until 16 later on in 1996 and into -- then on into 1998. But my 17 first executive assistant experience was at Natural 18 Resources. Minister Hodgson had another staff and 19 another executive assistant at Northern Development and 20 Mines. 21 Q: I see. And you were appointed as 22 Chief of Staff or executive assistant to Minister Hodgson 23 immediately upon his swearing into Cabinet? 24 A: Yes. It was within -- I don't know 25 that it was the same day, but very shortly thereafter.

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Mr. Bangs, I had provided you with 4 copies of documents that are in front of you. They are 5 numbered in this Inquiry as P-922 which is a print-off of 6 the Common Sense Revolution platform. 7 A: Yes? 8 Q: And secondly P-924, Bringing Common 9 Sense to Community Development. 10 A: Yes? 11 Q: And lastly P-925, A Voice for the 12 North, a Report of Mike Harris Northern Focus Tour. And 13 that one's dated January of '95? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: You've had an opportunity to review 16 these? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And you would have seen these 19 documents during the initial period of your -- of your 20 involvement as executive assistant? 21 A: Yes, they were developed by the 22 Progressive Conservative Party in -- or preceding the 23 1995 election in the opposition days. 24 Q: And did you have a role in the 25 preparation of any of -- any of this documentation?

1 A: No. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: When you were initially appointed 6 then as Executive Assistant, Mr. Bangs, I understand that 7 there would have been some orientation period, and -- and 8 can you tell us about that? 9 A: Yes, there was. There was some 10 explanation of the role and responsibility of an 11 executive assistant provided by the Premier's office and 12 to a certain extent I suppose by the Cabinet office who 13 worked with the Premier's office in developing a common 14 set of guidelines for each minister's office that was 15 explained to us. 16 We also went through an orientation period 17 with our new ministry staff. We were meeting a new 18 Deputy Minister, Assistant Deputy Ministers and Directors 19 for the first time and building a relationship with them 20 in the -- in the very early days. 21 Q: As you mentioned the Deputy Minister 22 of MNR, that would be Mr. Vrancart? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And his assistant Peter Allen? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: All right. And would you describe 2 for us please, just in very general terms, the role of an 3 executive assistant? 4 A: There were really four (4) areas, I 5 guess, of responsibility, in a general sense. 6 One was direct management of the 7 Minister's office. So, everything from recruiting, 8 hiring, firing, assigning work assignments to staff in 9 the office; the day to day management of the minister's 10 office. 11 Another area of responsibility was more on 12 the political side and the constituency side looking 13 after not so much the -- the Minister's ministerial 14 responsibilities but his MPP and member of the political 15 party type responsibilities. 16 Being a liaison between the Minister's 17 office and other minister's offices and the Premier's 18 office was a third area of responsibility. 19 And the fourth, and perhaps most important 20 area, at least from my point of view, was the 21 relationship building responsibility with the civil 22 service in the Ministry that we were responsible for. 23 So there's four (4) broad areas of 24 responsibility that -- that I was responsible for. 25 Q: Thank you for that. We'll come to

1 that last point you've just made. But the first point 2 was the managing or the staffing of the minister's 3 office? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I understand that you went 6 through a screening process as it were when -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- when you were recruited.? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And what did that amount to? 11 A: There was -- it wasn't -- it wasn't 12 very complicated. It was a process that was initiated by 13 the -- the Premier's office, post election, in the period 14 between the election and the swearing in of the new 15 government and the new cabinet. 16 It was a time when it was anticipated that 17 ministers offices would be requiring staff and there were 18 many people seeking jobs and putting their names forward. 19 And in an effort to coordinate that, the Premier's office 20 set up a central process to receive resumes. 21 People could come forward and express an 22 interest in different positions within ministers offices. 23 And they -- they accumulated I believe it was presented 24 to us in a binder form, a collection of resumes that was 25 provided to -- well in the case, the first step was to

1 provide it to ministers and from that suggested list of 2 potential executive assistants for them to choose 3 executive assistants. 4 And in my case it wasn't as rigorous 5 because I had a pre-existing relationship with my 6 minister. This binder and the screening process was then 7 turned over to executive assistants to -- as a tool. 8 So, we were able to look at the different 9 resumes and people who had come forward and expressed an 10 interest in different position. 11 And I guess the only other thing I can say 12 about it is that it was -- an effort was made prior to 13 the material coming to me to categorize based on people's 14 areas of interest and -- and where people involved in the 15 screening process thought they might be best suited to 16 different positions. 17 So, it was a tool that was provided to us 18 in the form of a binder. 19 Q: The previous relationship that you 20 had with Minister Hodgson of course included, I think as 21 you pointed out, the last of the four (4) general areas 22 was relationship building? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And as I understand it you had 25 engaged in that process with Minister Hodgson prior to

1 the election of '95? 2 A: Yes we did -- well in the sense that 3 as a -- as a critic responsible for an area, he was the 4 critic for Natural Resources and in that role we did work 5 with a variety of stakeholders that affected that 6 particular Ministry. 7 Q: The stakeholders would include what - 8 - what groups for example, Mr. Bangs? 9 A: Most of the major client groups of 10 the Ministry of Natural Resources from Forestry, the 11 Ontario Internal Forestry Industries Association, Ontario 12 Sawmillers Association, environmental groups like 13 Wildlands League and World Wildlife Fund, the Ontario 14 Federation of Anglers and Hunters, a whole -- Ducks 15 Unlimited; the whole variety of client groups in the 16 Ministry of Natural Resources. 17 Of course, in opposition it's -- it's -- 18 you don't have all the resources of government but it was 19 an effort -- an effort was made to reach out and -- and 20 have relations with those people in opposition. 21 Q: Aboriginal groups, Mr. Bangs, were 22 they seen as stakeholders? Was there that similar 23 reaching out? 24 A: There -- there was -- there were 25 certainly stakeholders to many of the issues affecting

1 Natural Resources. The party also had a critic 2 responsible for Native Affairs who would have done that 3 kind of outreach. It was not something that I recall 4 doing in that time period in the -- preceding the 5 election. 6 Q: And just to cover off that area, was 7 there any liaison as -- as you can recall as between the 8 critic for Aboriginal Affairs and the -- the critic for 9 Ministry of Natural Resources? 10 A: I don't recall. 11 Q: In the early days then of -- when you 12 were -- when you were appointed as Executive Assistant to 13 then-Minister Hodgson, it's a new portfolio for him, can 14 you tell us about those initial days in terms of the 15 activity that was going on, the briefing processes. 16 A: It was a -- a very busy time. As you 17 can imagine, it was a change in government, a change in 18 people in Minister's offices and for many of us it was 19 quite a learning curve, especially on some of the more 20 technical issues within the Ministry. 21 The -- we, I think, commenced our briefing 22 process very quickly, relative to some other Ministries. 23 And I say that because immediately upon the Minister 24 being sworn in or very shortly thereafter, we were on a 25 plane going to Northern Ontario to look at forest fires.

1 And the Deputy -- it was a particularly forest fire 2 season that year, and the Deputy arranged to have himself 3 and the ADM's come along on the trip with us. 4 So, it wasn't just a trip to look at 5 forest fires, it was actually a working trip. So, on the 6 plane on the way to Northern Ontario and while we stayed 7 over, we arranged briefings throughout the course of this 8 trip. 9 So, immediately from the start, we began 10 briefings on a whole range of issues affecting MNR. 11 And I think, my sense was that the -- 12 there was an effort on behalf of the Deputy and his staff 13 to prioritize. So, in issues that they anticipated would 14 affect the Minister sooner, on a more urgent basis, the 15 ones that he was likely to encounter first, were at the 16 top of their priority list. 17 Forest fires was, of course, we learned 18 about the budget for forest fires and the operation on 19 the ground and that was the first briefing I recall 20 having in some detail. 21 But beyond that it was -- it went through 22 every division of the Ministry over a period of time, 23 flowing from that first trip and on for many weeks. 24 Q: And would that characterise the pace 25 throughout --

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- that initial period at least? 3 A: Yes, it was a very busy time. And 4 again, we talked earlier about staffing, we were also in 5 the process of staffing so as we get more staff on board, 6 more people were included in those briefings and it went 7 on -- it went on all summer really. 8 Q: In terms of the relationship between 9 your Minister and the -- and the new Deputy in this whole 10 briefing process, how would you describe that 11 relationship? 12 A: I would characterise a relationship 13 with both the Deputy, his own office staff, Peter Allen 14 being the lead person in that office on his behalf, and 15 his ADM's and directors, the senior staff of the Ministry 16 and our office and our Minister got along very well. 17 We hit it off quite well right from the 18 start. We had a very good working relationship. 19 One of the things that was talked about in 20 the orientation as a new Executive Assistant and -- and 21 new Minister's staff, was the need to respect the -- the 22 hierarchy within government and within the Ministries and 23 recognizing the Deputy as the head of the Ministry in the 24 organization and not -- not going around the Deputy to -- 25 to talk to his staff, and really working in co-operation

1 with the Deputy. 2 So, we had a very cooperative relationship 3 right from the start. I think it worked very well and to 4 this day, look back on the experience as quite a good in 5 terms of how quickly we formed that relationship. 6 Q: Given the role of the Deputy as 7 you've just described it, what was your interface or the 8 interface of your Minister with the -- with the civil 9 service? 10 A: It was -- well, depending -- as I was 11 explaining the briefing process, they had prioritized 12 based on which issues the Minister would be encountering 13 sooner. 14 I thought the Deputy did a good job of 15 that prioritization. And then putting the right people 16 in the room for briefings with the Minister, the people 17 in the Ministry who were experts in certain areas to 18 brief the Minister in a very forthright and knowledgeable 19 basis. It was very interactive. 20 And in the early -- early days, do you 21 recall any briefings on -- on Aboriginal issues and 22 particularly contentious Aboriginal issues? 23 A: There were -- I remember the Ministry 24 staff providing a briefing to us in the initial period. 25 I don't know exactly when it was in the sequence but we

1 were briefed on issues across the Province that might 2 affect the Ministry of Natural Resources and have a First 3 Nation component to them. 4 Q: And can recall for us who it was that 5 would have been involved in providing these briefings? 6 A: The -- the Ministry had its own legal 7 services branch so people like Barry Jones, who I think 8 was the director of legal services at the time, 9 participated. 10 And there were also people in the Ministry 11 who were specifically assigned to Aboriginal issues, 12 people like Mel Crystal. Leith Hunter, I don't know that 13 she was specifically assigned, but people like Leith 14 Hunter. 15 Karen Wishart was another person who 16 participated in briefings on -- on First Nations issues. 17 Those are the people -- David DeLauney who was another 18 person in the Ministry who participated in those 19 briefings. 20 Those are the people who would participate 21 in -- in giving us that scan of the Province and where 22 the issues might be occurring or were potential to occur. 23 Q: Were you familiar with a person by 24 the name of Julie Jai? 25 A: Julie Jai worked in another ministry.

1 I did become familiar with her on August 2nd at meeting 2 at ONAS. She worked at ONAS. 3 Q: And in this initial period in terms 4 of the briefings do you recall whether Julie Jai might 5 have been providing some of those briefings? 6 A: I can't say for certain. I was not 7 in a briefing on the MNR scan of issues with Julie Jai. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: You have had a chance to look at the 12 -- the campaign material as well as -- 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: -- if I can call it, the basic policy 15 type of documentation -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- or at least it was a -- a basis 18 for formulating policies as we understand here? 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: And can you recall whether with -- 21 within those documents, or subsequent in the initial 22 period, in the policy formulation period, whether there 23 was any policies or guidelines that were issued during 24 the summer of 1995 relating to Aboriginal peoples or 25 issues?

1 A: I don't know that -- I don't recall 2 any specific policy directives being issued. I do know 3 that the -- the areas flowing from the campaign documents 4 that were most -- of most importance to us at the 5 Ministry of Natural Resources were the items that spoke 6 to creating and seeking out economic development 7 opportunities, was one (1) area. And the other area 8 being to be -- have a more open and inclusive land claim 9 process in a communications sense. 10 Those are the two (2) areas that stick out 11 in my mind flowing from those documents that affected us 12 at the Ministry of Natural Resources. 13 Q: And the latter point that -- you just 14 mentioned, that this the inclusive -- including a -- a 15 broader voice in the land claims processes that is 16 contained in the Voice of the North document there in 17 front of you? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You were also aware, Mr. Bangs, of a 20 policy guideline entitled, Statement of Political 21 Relationship? And that's found at Tab 1 of the book of 22 documents in front of you. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And marked as Exhibit P-643. 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: You had some familiarity with this? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. Had you looked at it back 4 in those days? 5 A: No, I had not -- I had not seen this 6 document prior to recently meeting you and -- and seeing 7 it then. 8 Q: Okay. And you were aware of it in -- 9 in what -- in what capacity? 10 A: I was aware of its existence. I knew 11 that -- and I don't recall exactly when I became aware, 12 if it was prior to the election or after as part of the 13 briefing process of Natural Resources, but I certainly 14 was aware of its existence having been entered into by 15 the previous government with the First Nations of 16 Ontario. 17 And I understood that it was a document 18 that spoke to the requirement of the Province to enter 19 into dialogue and discussions and negotiations on a 20 government-to-government basis with First Nations on 21 matters that affected them. 22 Q: Okay. Thank you. Again in the 23 summer of 1995 you had been provided a briefing, as I 24 understand it, with respect to a matter going on at 25 Serpent Mounds?

1 A: Yes, I believe that was part of the - 2 - the issue scans that were provided by -- in the -- in 3 the initial round of briefings, that were provided by the 4 Ministry of Natural Resources staff. We were briefed on 5 the -- the history of her -- of Serpent Mounds and the 6 nature of the -- the land claim situation and the fact 7 that it was First Nations land. 8 Q: All right. And we -- we'll come to 9 that in -- in some more detail in a moment. 10 A: Sure. 11 Q: But occurring around the same period 12 of time was the incident at Ipperwash that we -- we've 13 been focussed on here? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And how did you become aware of -- of 16 this matter? 17 A: The first time I heard about 18 Ipperwash was, I believe late, July of '95. I was in a 19 meeting -- an Executive Committee meeting of the Ministry 20 which was a standing meeting, I believe, we had weekly, 21 and the Ministers or the Deputy Minister's executive 22 assistant Peter Allen had been out of the room for some 23 time. 24 He entered the room and asked me to come 25 out into the hallway and he told me that there had been

1 some incidents at Ipperwash -- or Camp Ipperwash I 2 believe, and that he briefed me on what had -- what had 3 happened and what was likely to be reported in the media, 4 that there was an occurrence. He told me that it was -- 5 there was quite some history to the situation and that 6 the OPP were in charge and they were the lead on the 7 ground. 8 So, it was very much informational in 9 terms of the way he explained it to me. Not that it's 10 really that important, but at the time he actually had to 11 refer me to a map to indicate where Ipperwash Provincial 12 Park and Camp Ipperwash were. I did -- I was not aware 13 prior to that. 14 Q: And aside from a sense of -- of the 15 history behind this issue did he convey to you any -- any 16 potentials, either with respect to a confrontational 17 matter or -- or risk or threat? 18 A: I don't know that it was in that 19 initial conversation, but certainly in that time period 20 and then leading into the August 2nd briefing at ONAS we 21 were certainly made aware that there was quite some 22 history and a longstanding police presence in the area 23 since the occurrences in '93 on Camp Ipperwash. 24 And there was -- it was indicated to us 25 that there had been repeated suggestions or recurring

1 suggestions that this might spread perhaps to the Park, 2 beaches in the area, perhaps even private properties in 3 the area; that's the way it was explained to us. 4 Q: And if I can refer you to Tab Number 5 3 of the book of documents in front of you, Mr. Bangs, 6 that is a document -- there's a document there, an 7 e-mail -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- to Barry Jones from Peter Sturdy. 10 It has been marked as P-777. And I note that on the 11 second page of that that you were copied with this? 12 A: I see that. 13 Q: Firstly, do you recall seeing this 14 document and secondly is there anything in here that is 15 not consistent with your understanding at that point in 16 time; that is, August 1st of 1995? 17 A: I don't recall seeing this particular 18 e-mail. I -- I note that it was copied to me so I may 19 have, but I don't recall it. I do remember hearing these 20 events relayed to me verbally by the Deputy's Executive 21 Assistant, Peter Allen. 22 Q: And it would appear that there was 23 the potential for the occupation of the Park that had 24 stemmed -- or pardon me, that had been relayed through a 25 conversation with Inspector Carson if you look at the

1 document? 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: And this is I believe consistent with 5 what I was saying, that we were hearing that there were 6 suggestions, and the way it was explained to us was that 7 this was -- it was a recurring thing, that it had 8 happened the preceding year and suggestions that the Park 9 might be next and other -- perhaps other properties might 10 be next, was the way it was presented to me. 11 Q: And in receiving this information as 12 I'd ask you earlier, was there any sense of concern as a 13 result of that? 14 A: Well, certainly it was -- it was 15 important information to know. From a -- a Natural 16 Resources point of view there was not an initial concern 17 in the sense that we were being told that it was an OPP 18 matter, that the OPP were the lead on the ground and that 19 there was no role for us at that point in time. It was 20 informational, the way it was relayed to us. 21 Q: Thank you. I want to turn to the 22 subject of the Interministerial Committee on Aboriginal 23 Emergencies. You're familiar with that body? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: It's been referred to variously as

1 the Blockade Committee or the Barricade Committee -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- of the IMC? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. Under Tab Number 5, 6 that's Exhibit P-498, it's an appendix that's entitled, 7 Guidelines for Responding to Aboriginal Emergencies, and 8 in quotations, "Blockades". 9 Are you familiar with this document? 10 A: I have not seen this document before. 11 Q: You've had an opportunity to review 12 it? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And is that -- does that reflect your 15 understanding of the role of the Committee either in 16 August of '95 or later? 17 A: In a general sense, yes. My 18 understanding of the Committee was that it was -- it was 19 a standing committee in the sense that it existed within 20 government led by ONAS. The -- the makeup of the 21 Committee changed constantly as different issues arose. 22 So, depending on the nature of the issue, 23 if it was a provincial highway that was affected the 24 Ministry of Transportation might be at the meeting for 25 example, and not the Ministry of Natural Resources.

1 So, the membership of the Committee was 2 somewhat fluid in that sense. And my understanding of 3 the Committee was that it was a clearing house, or 4 information gathering body, and also there to create 5 options or recommendations. 6 Q: With respect to decision making, did 7 you understand this Committee to have any such role? 8 A: No, I did not understand it to be a 9 decision making body. 10 Q: We know from other documents that 11 have been provided in testimony that there was a meeting 12 of this Committee on the 2nd of August 1995. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you had been invited to that 15 meeting. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Is there anything that you can recall 18 firstly with respect to -- to this meeting? 19 A: Not -- not in any great detail. It 20 was -- it was convened as a meeting to very much go 21 around the table, was the format, and for people to 22 report on -- from their different Ministry's perspective 23 what they knew and what they were hearing about incidents 24 in the Camp Ipperwash, at that time, area. 25 And it was in some respects I suppose, a

1 repeat of information I'd been hearing the week prior and 2 in the -- in the day preceding that through my Deputy's 3 office. 4 Q: Did you have a general impression 5 from that meeting as to whether there was -- there was 6 any sense of urgency or concern that -- that should be 7 taken into account? 8 A: No, not a -- not a great sense of 9 urgency. Again there was this notion that this is -- 10 this -- these threats have been -- have happened before, 11 there have been recurring incidents over the preceding 12 two (2) years. 13 So, it was very much informational in that 14 sense. And also the takeaway point for me was that there 15 was still no direct impact on the Ministry of Natural 16 Resources and that is was an OPP matter. The OPP were 17 the lead on the ground and it had no direct bearing on 18 the Ministry of Natural Resources at that point. 19 Q: In terms of the OPP being the lead on 20 the ground, what -- what do you mean by that? 21 A: That we were told that as part of 22 this long history the OPP were in the area. And we were 23 told that they had surveillance underway, that basically, 24 that they were the lead agency on the ground and -- and 25 they were in charge of the situation.

1 Q: And as a consequence of receiving 2 this information from this meeting, what -- what did you 3 do? What was your role? 4 A: My role and that of the Ministry 5 staff who were there were to take note of it. And we did 6 at a later time brief our Minister upon returning to the 7 Ministry and the Deputy Minister on what we had heard at 8 the meeting. 9 Q: I want to ask you a bit about the 10 dynamics of the meeting if you can recall that. 11 A: Okay. I'll try. 12 Q: Do you remember the parties -- the 13 people that were there, the -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- the representations that they 16 made? 17 A: I don't remember a great deal of 18 detail about the representations that were made. I do 19 know that there were representatives from the Ministry of 20 Solicitor General, Ministry of Natural Resources, ONAS, 21 Attorney General's office. There were people from the 22 ministries. There were people from the political offices. 23 I think the -- the record of minutes 24 indicates the attendance list. But there were certainly 25 people represented from a variety of ministries and

1 offices in attendance. 2 And it was -- what I recall of it was that 3 in some respects it was a repeat of information I was 4 hearing through our Ministry and it was a round table 5 fact gathering type of meeting. 6 Q: All right. You mentioned the minutes 7 of that and I'll draw your attention then to Tab Number 4 8 of the book of documents. It's marked as P-503 and it -- 9 and it purports to be the minutes and documentation 10 arising out of that Interministerial Committee meeting of 11 August 2nd, '95. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You've had a chance to review those 14 today, would you have received them at the time, Mr. 15 Bangs? 16 A: I think they were distributed to me 17 shortly after the meeting occurred. 18 Q: And do you have a recollection of 19 receiving those back in that time period? 20 A: I remember that they were 21 distributed. I don't know how long after the meeting 22 they were distributed and I -- I don't know that I took 23 particular note of them at the time because I had just 24 been at the meeting. 25 Q: Among the references in those meeting

1 minutes is the -- the possibility of an occupation of 2 Ipperwash Provincial Park; one of the topic items. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And what do you recall in terms of 5 that -- in terms of that discussion? 6 A: Only that it was mentioned as a 7 possibility in the meeting. Again, as was the suggestion 8 that there -- it could spread to other properties as 9 well. 10 Q: And I take it from your earlier 11 responses that that was discounted, at least in the sense 12 that it didn't appear to be an immediate or imminent 13 concern or threat? 14 A: Correct. Well, it wasn't that it was 15 discounted, it was that the way it was explained to me, 16 the way I understood it from these briefings, was that 17 there had been a history prior to the summer of '95 where 18 suggestions like these had been made before and not acted 19 upon. 20 And therefore, the way it was presented to 21 us was that this was not necessarily any more urgent than 22 what had been heard or rumoured or speculated on before. 23 And that's my memory of the way this 24 information was presented. 25 Q: Thank you for that. And in addition

1 to that, there was -- or was there, I should ask, any 2 discussion around the possibility of a burial site or 3 burial grounds being within the Park boundaries? 4 A: At the August 2nd meeting I don't 5 recall that coming up. 6 Q: I understand that part of the 7 information that was provided as well, in terms of the -- 8 the history that was given to the -- to the group of this 9 area, was some discussion around the history of Camp 10 Ipperwash itself and the appropriation of that -- of that 11 land? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Is there anything that you can add to 14 -- to that, in terms of your recollection? 15 A: There was considerable discussion to 16 educate the collective group at the meeting about the 17 long history of Camp Ipperwash going back to the Second 18 World War and the way that the land had been expropriated 19 and turned into a Military Base. 20 And there was also considerable discussion 21 about the period '93 to 1995 and -- and actions that had 22 occurred beginning of 1993 on the Camp Ipperwash 23 property. And that was -- that was discussed in the 24 meetings. 25 Q: Was there discussion about the title

1 to the Park, as -- as part of this? 2 A: There was information provided at the 3 meetings. I remember information being provided that 4 indicated that the Province had clear title to the Park 5 and there was some description, I remember, of the 6 history. 7 I don't recall the exact dates and the 8 sequence but that the -- the Park had not been obtained 9 directly from the First Nation, but from a third-party 10 who had at a -- at a previous time in history obtained it 11 somehow, but I don't recall exactly how that occurred. 12 But, it was made known to us that the Park 13 was under clear title by the Province, or of the 14 Province. 15 Q: Given your responsibilities as 16 executive assistant, I take it that this information 17 would be flowed up your chain of command and -- and you 18 would brief your Minister? 19 A: Yes, yes. 20 Q: Do you recall that you, in fact, did 21 brief him following this meeting of August the 2nd? 22 A: Yes. I don't know exactly when the 23 briefing occurred, if it was immediately following or 24 shortly thereafter, but it did occur. And it -- I 25 believe it was in the company of Mr. Vrancart and Mr.

1 Allen and we collectively talked about and updated the 2 Minister on what we had heard on the August 2nd meeting. 3 Q: And again, do you recall whether and, 4 pardon me, do you recall what level or degree of concern 5 or -- or imminent threat might have been conveyed as part 6 of this briefing? 7 A: Exactly as I've described here. The 8 way it was presented to us and -- and the way we 9 understood it coming away from the meeting. 10 Q: Throughout the month of August, you 11 had received additional information with respect to the 12 goings on at Camp Ipperwash and surrounding areas? 13 A: I believe sometime in August, again I 14 don't recall the exact date, but there were incidents 15 reported in the media of confrontations that occurred, I 16 believe, on the beach at Ipperwash Provincial Park 17 between, it was suggested at the time, people from -- who 18 had been occupying Camp -- Camp Ipperwash, and -- and 19 confrontations were occurring between those people and 20 campers in the Park. 21 And I believe some of that was reported in 22 the media at the time. So, we did learn about that 23 through our normal media clipping review and -- at the 24 Ministry. 25 Q: And do you recall any specific

1 incidents that you might tell us about? 2 A: There was -- there was one incident 3 that sticks out in my mind. It involved a car being 4 driven onto the beach at Ipperwash Provincial Park in the 5 presence of campers using the beach. 6 And I think it was suggested that the car 7 was doing donuts on the beach and acting in a -- in a 8 dangerous manner. And my memory is that someone of -- I 9 think it was a father of one (1) of the children on the 10 beach attempted to stop this from happening and was 11 perhaps injured while this was occurring. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: And I believe that was reported in 14 the media at the time. 15 Q: During the same period of time did 16 you have any occasion to either deal with or hear from 17 the local MPP, Marcel Beaubien? 18 A: I don't believe in the -- in that 19 time period, prior to the Labour Day weekend I did. I 20 certainly knew Mr. Beaubien because he was a member of 21 the Government Caucus and I would see him from time to 22 time at Queen's Park. But, I don't recall talking to him 23 about this issue in August of '95. 24 Q: And had you any direct contact with 25 any of the MNR staff that were on the ground?

1 A: No. I may have met Mr. Sturdy in 2 another briefing on provincial park matters. I -- I 3 remember seeing Mr. Sturdy at some point in August of 4 1995, but I don't believe it was on -- in relation to 5 this issue at all. 6 Q: Mr. Kobayashi? 7 A: No. No. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: I'd asked you earlier about an 12 incident occurring in and around the Labour Day weekend 13 at Serpent Mounds Provincial Park? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Would you tell us about your 16 involvement in that? 17 A: Well, as -- as I described earlier we 18 had been briefed on the history of Serpent Mounds and the 19 -- the fact that it was First Nations land and there was 20 a legitimate title and claim to that land by the First 21 Nation. 22 My memory is that -- my -- what I remember 23 of that weekend was on the Friday at the beginning of the 24 long weekend I was actually enroute to a cottage for the 25 weekend with my wife and I believe the Minister was

41
  1  enroute to a cottage as well and we received a call from
  2  our Deputy's office indicating that a demonstration was
  3  occurring, or a blockade, was occurring at Serpent
  4  Mounds.
  5                 The -- our first concern was for public
  6  safety and ensuring that everyone was safe.  We were told
  7  that the OPP had been called and that again they were the
  8  -- the lead on the ground.  And we were told that public
  9  safety was being addressed and campers were being turned
 10  away for the weekend.
 11                 The -- the only matter that really was
 12  discussed as far as MNR was concerned, and it was the
 13  Minister's idea to -- from a public relations point of
 14  view ensure that campers enroute to the park who were
 15  turned away were given a -- I don't know what the term
 16  was, if it was a coupon or certificate that they could
 17  use at another provincial park that weekend or at another
 18  time, just recognizing that, you know, people look
 19  forward to their -- their weekend camping vacation as a
 20  bit of a holiday and it was simply a PR thing.
 21                 And that was pretty much the extent of,
 22  just to let the police -- when we were told the police
 23  were the lead on the ground and we really had not much
 24  more involvement in it than that at the beginning of the
 25  weekend, nor throughout the weekend for that matter.

1 Q: You were aware, however, of the 2 outcome of -- of that event? 3 A: The outcome in what sense? Sorry? 4 Q: Well, maybe just tell us what did -- 5 what did -- what did happen? 6 A: Well following -- 7 Q: Whether or not that situation was 8 resolved? 9 A: Well, following -- following the 10 weekend and I -- it wasn't immediately following the 11 weekend, but sometime later that fall the Ministry 12 entered into negotiations with the local First Nation to 13 assume management of the Park on a co-management basis. 14 And at the time, I believe Minister 15 Hodgson suggested it very early in the process, and it -- 16 it actually related to not only knowing the fact that 17 they -- it was First Nations land and it was -- they had 18 clear title to the Park, that from a practical point of 19 view one of our missions at the Ministry of Natural 20 Resources was finding cost savings within the Ministry 21 and part of that exercise was finding partnerships in the 22 private sector or other partners to co-manage provincial 23 parks. 24 And because of the clear title situation 25 and the First Nations' desire to take over the Park and -

1 - and reclaim the Park, the co-management arrangement 2 worked and I believe to this day it is still the case. 3 Q: You mentioned that there were 4 negotiations; is that -- is that what I understood? 5 A: I believe so. There had to be some-- 6 Q: All right. I'm sorry. 7 A: There had to be some sort of 8 negotiation or agreement put in place with the First 9 Nation following that. I don't -- I was not directly 10 involved in it. 11 Q: I was just going to ask you that. 12 Thank you. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Turning then to the occupation of the 17 Ipperwash Provincial Park, when did you first become 18 aware of that, Mr. Bangs and how was that -- how did that 19 come about? 20 A: I believe it was when I was returning 21 to or shortly after arriving back in Toronto after the 22 Labour Day weekend on the Monday afternoon or Monday 23 evening, I was told -- I was notified by Peter Allen from 24 our Deputy's office that the occupation was occurring. 25 And I believe in that conversation he told

44
  1  me that the Deputy was going to be notifying the
  2  Minister, simultaneous to his phone call to me.  The
  3  information that he relayed to me was that the occupation
  4  was occurring.  
  5                 We had a discussion about public safety. 
  6  And at the time it was the regular routine for that
  7  particular park to close down after the Labour Day
  8  weekend anyway so any campers who had not already left
  9  were in the process of leaving the Camp -- the Park
 10  anyway.
 11                 And so public safety was either addressed
 12  -- or public safety of campers was either addressed or
 13  being addressed at that particular time.
 14                 And beyond that I don't believe there was
 15  much more discussion.  He did make the point again that
 16  the OPP, as we'd been told earlier in the summer, had
 17  been involved in -- in the situation, and they were
 18  certainly the lead on the ground and responsible for
 19  activities on the ground at that time.
 20                 Q:   And obtaining this information, what
 21  did you do with it?
 22                 A:   I made a phone call to the Premier's
 23  office -- to Ms. Hutton in the Premier's office.  I don't
 24  remember if we spoke or if I left her a message.  But I
 25  do remember making the call to give her the -- the

1 information. 2 Q: And why it would be necessary to 3 provide her with that information? 4 A: There was a -- a protocol between 5 offices, Ministers offices and the Premier's office and 6 also in fact between Ministries and the cabinet office 7 was a dual reporting process. 8 Protocol that if you were aware of 9 information that was breaking issue or -- or something 10 that was -- that was occurring that the Premier might be 11 asked about or might be reported in the media, it was 12 partly protocol and partly courtesy to notify colleagues 13 in -- in the Premier's office. 14 At the same time the expectation was that 15 the Ministry would, and the Deputy's office, would notify 16 the cabinet office. And so that's why that call was 17 made. 18 Q: And do you recall whether that 19 process was followed, whether protocol or courtesy with 20 respect to the Serpent Mounds incident that you just told 21 us about? 22 A: Well with the Serpent Mounds 23 incident, I did not make that call on the Friday when I 24 first learned about it. So I -- no, I did not make that 25 call.

1 Q: Okay. And in addition to passing 2 this information along regarding the occupation of 3 Ipperwash Provincial Park, did you discuss -- can you 4 recall, with your Minister, any strategies that might be 5 undertaken, whether communication or otherwise? 6 A: No. Not on -- not on that day. 7 Q: Were you provided any instructions 8 from your Minister to do anything as a result of having 9 this information? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Were you aware, Mr. Bangs at that 12 time that beyond the general long history the OPP had in 13 the region, or in the area, I think as you've explained 14 to us, that they had set up either in Forest or somewhere 15 near Ipperwash Provincial Park, a centre to deal with the 16 matter? 17 A: No. 18 Q: As a result of the occupation, we 19 understand that there was a further meeting of the 20 Interministerial Committee on Aboriginal Emergencies. 21 A: Yes. On -- 22 Q: Was that -- 23 A: -- on the 5th. 24 Q: On the 5th of September, 1995? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: That you were invited to this meeting 2 as well? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. You did attend that 5 meeting? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And prior to attending that meeting 8 you had some interaction with your Minister, I take it? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. Can you tell us about that? 11 A: It would have been by phone because 12 he had not returned to the city at that point. And it 13 wasn't -- it was quite limited only to inform him that I 14 was going to this meeting and I would be reporting to him 15 following the meeting on what the outcome of the meeting 16 was. 17 Q: Okay. Were you aware at that point, 18 Mr. Bangs, that there had been, or there would be some 19 discussion with respect of the obtaining of an 20 injunction. 21 A: Not at that point. 22 Q: You don't have any recall of that? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Tell us then about the meeting of 25 September 5th of 1995 of the Interministerial Committee.

1 A: It -- it was conducted much the same 2 way that the meeting on August 2nd was. It was Chaired 3 by people from ONAS. It was conducted as a round table, 4 at least at the beginning of the meeting, as an update, 5 going around the table Ministry by Ministry, getting 6 information on the table. 7 Predominantly led by, I believe, Mr. Fox, 8 representing the Solicitor General with his update being 9 the most lengthy; people from MNR, some in the room and 10 some on the speaker phone providing additional 11 information. 12 And beyond that, as far as information 13 being reported from the field, I don't know that there 14 was much more. The other Ministries in the room didn't 15 have a presence in the field or on the ground and most -- 16 that's why I say most of the information provided to the 17 meeting in the round table session, was from MNR and from 18 -- predominantly from Sol Gen and then was supplemented 19 by information from -- from MNR. 20 Q: So, they would -- they would have 21 commenced the meeting by providing again, the history, as 22 you've indicated? 23 A: I don't know -- well, I don't 24 remember if they got into the history in that meeting. 25 For me it was from memory from the previous meeting where

1 the history had been known to us. 2 There were new participants at this 3 particular meeting than at the previous meeting. I don't 4 remember if -- if there was much time spent on the 5 history of -- of the whole situation. 6 Q: One individual you did mention was 7 Mr. Fox. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Ron Fox. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And who did you understand he to be? 12 A: Mr. Fox was introduced at that 13 meeting, and my understanding of his role was as a 14 seconded OPP officer; seconded to the Ministry of 15 Solicitor General as an advisor to senior officials at 16 the Solicitor General's Ministry and as a liaison back to 17 police headquarters. 18 That was my understanding of his function. 19 Q: In terms of the type of information 20 that he was providing to the Committee, can you tell us 21 anything about that? 22 A: He was -- he was providing 23 information about what was -- what was happening at 24 Ipperwash. 25 Q: Do you have any detail that you --

1 A: No, I don't recall the exact detail 2 of what he was reporting on. 3 Q: Did you get any sense of Mr. Fox's 4 capacity beyond what it was that he had been introduced 5 as? 6 For example, did you know that -- that he 7 was in contact with somebody at the frontline? 8 A: That was not evident at that meeting 9 to me. 10 Q: The information -- in terms of that 11 information that was provided to the Committee, was it 12 then understood as to who these people in the park were 13 and what there -- what they wanted? 14 A: No, it was very unclear, was the way 15 it was presented to the meeting and that's the way I 16 remember it, that who these people were was very unclear. 17 There was an apparent lack of a spokesperson on behalf of 18 this group and no articulated demands as to what it was 19 that they -- that they wanted. 20 That was very unclear at that time, that's 21 my memory of it. 22 Q: All right. And as a result of the 23 occupation, I take it that there would have been some 24 discussion about how to end it, in terms of first of all 25 providing -- providing notice to, you know, to vacate?

1 A: There was -- 2 Q: Do you recall that? 3 A: There was some discussion about that. 4 Q: All right. Can you recall any 5 details about that discussion at this moment? 6 A: I don't recall many details other 7 than there -- there was a discussion about the -- an 8 injunction, the possibility of an injunction at some 9 point. 10 And there was a discussion about the OPP 11 enlisting the involving of Mr. Kobayashi on the ground, 12 because of his knowledge of the Park, being the 13 superintendent. 14 Q: Okay. And Mr. Kobayashi would be 15 enlisted to do what? 16 A: I don't know all the details of what 17 he was being asked to do. I'm not aware of that. 18 Q: Do you recall whether or not there 19 was any concern registered by anybody with respect to 20 this potential enlisting of Mr. Kobayashi? 21 A: I and the other people from MNR, I 22 don't know that we -- we voiced it directly in that 23 meeting, but we certainly to our Deputy and our Minister 24 about the fact that Les was going to be asked to so 25 certain things and we shared a -- a common concern for

1 his safety. 2 And I remember having a discussion about 3 only -- only if Les agreed to do this. And if he agreed 4 to cooperate with the OPP and do this, it was up to him. 5 It wasn't up to us as to whether -- it was what -- what 6 he felt comfortable with. 7 Q: All right. And the concern for his 8 safety, that you and others from the Ministry, that came 9 about why? 10 A: Because of the -- the incidents that 11 were occurring in association with the occupation and the 12 way it was being reported to us. 13 Q: And again, I'll ask you if you can 14 recall any of the details of the incidents that were -- 15 that were -- had occurred? 16 A: At that point it was -- it was 17 presented to us as an occupation with a leaderless group 18 with lots of threats and -- and suggestions and rumours 19 that this may spread. 20 And it was a very uncertain situation, but 21 the uncertainty caused us to be concerned for an employee 22 of the Ministry of Natural Resources having any role at 23 all in it. 24 Q: Okay. I want to ask you a bit about 25 Debra Hutton -- you -- or Debbie Hutton. You know who

1 she is? 2 A: Yes, I do. 3 Q: And you knew her at that time having 4 dealt with her on numerous previous occasions? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. It's been reported and -- 7 and we have documentation where she is reported to use 8 the word, 'hawkish' in relation the Premier's feelings 9 with respect to the situation. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Can you describe for us what your 12 under -- well, first of all did you hear that? 13 A: Yes, I did. 14 Q: And having heard that do you have -- 15 can you tell us what your sense was about the use of that 16 word and the context? 17 A: My -- what I thought she meant when 18 she said it was that she was expressing the view that the 19 Premier was cautious and wanting the group and -- and the 20 Government to respond carefully to this because it was 21 one (1) of the first encounters the new Government was 22 having with a First Nations issue. 23 And that there was -- for that reason we 24 needed to think through very carefully what options were 25 going to be developed; that's the way I interpreted it.

1 Q: All right. Now, the suggestion 2 perhaps may be made to you, Mr. Bangs, that the word 3 'hawkish' perhaps describes aggressive tendencies or 4 behaviours? 5 Does that -- does that fit with your 6 recollection of anybody's attitude in that meeting? 7 A: The -- Ms. Hutton, for those who did 8 not know her, may have interpreted the way she spoke 9 somewhat differently than I would have having known her 10 from previous encounters. She was a very results 11 oriented person and was driving the meeting towards the 12 development of options that she could take back to report 13 to the Premier on. 14 And I didn't read much more into her 15 comments than what I've just said, that it was to -- to 16 be careful and cautious about how we proceeded. 17 Q: Beyond her use of that word do -- do 18 you recall whether or not she had made any queries of the 19 Committee as to what position or actions the Premier 20 ought to take? 21 A: I don't recall that. 22 Q: Do you recall her saying that: 23 "The Premier wanted the fucking Indians 24 out of the Park and to use guns if you 25 have to."

1 A: No. 2 Q: Is that something you might recall if 3 it were used? 4 A: If that were said I would think I 5 would remember it. 6 Q: All right. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: I understand that there was some 11 reference made by Ms. Hutton to the Serpent Mounds matter 12 that you had described for us earlier? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And what was the context of that and 15 what do you recall of her commenting on that? 16 A: I believe she asked why this 17 particular Committee had not met on the matter of Serpent 18 Mounds and why this forum had not been convened. 19 Q: You've mentioned earlier that you did 20 not as -- as you did with respect to the Ipperwash matter 21 place a -- a protocol or a courtesy phone call to -- to 22 her, or to the Premier's office? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And was that raised with you? 25 A: She, outside this meeting, did

1 suggest to me that it would have been proper protocol to 2 have informed the Premier's office about what was 3 happening at Serpent Mounds. 4 Q: Okay. Given the context that you 5 described for us and the -- the use of the word that the 6 Premier was 'hawkish' on this matter, I understand that 7 you would have raised a counterpoint to that? 8 A: Shortly after she made the comment, I 9 raised the point that I thought we had to mindful of the 10 statement of political relationship which was still in 11 existence and on the books. 12 Even though it was signed by the previous 13 government with First Nations, it was still an existing 14 live document and I thought we needed to be mindful of it 15 and perhaps follow some of the elements of it. 16 Q: All right. And some of the elements 17 of it, what do you -- what do you mean by that, Mr. 18 Bangs? 19 A: I was describing earlier my general 20 knowledge of it to indicate that the Province, when 21 dealing with First nations issues and matters that 22 affected First Nations had an obligation and a commitment 23 with First Nations to engage them in discussion and 24 dialogue and consultation on those matters. 25 Q: Now, I'll take you to a document in a

1 moment that outlines the context of this discussion. We 2 had a chance to review that earlier. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: How was that point that you had 5 raised taken? 6 A: I don't recall that it was -- we -- 7 we began talking about other things. My comment was 8 noted and we moved on. 9 Q: So, in terms of the suggestion, and I 10 take it from your earlier response, is that you were 11 suggesting that there ought to be some dialogue or 12 negotiations occurring? 13 A: Yes. I thought that was the 14 appropriate way to try to proceed. Despite the 15 challenges with the lack of an identified spokesperson 16 for the group, I thought some action or some effort 17 should be made to establish some dialogue. 18 And do you recall whether, specifically, 19 anybody within the Committee rejected that suggestion 20 that there ought to be negotiations? 21 A: No. 22 Q: We've heard something about the -- 23 the potential for Mohawk warriors to also show up. Do 24 you recall anything like that arising in that meeting? 25 A: I remember that suggestion being

1 made. I don't recall who -- who mentioned it. I believe 2 it was part of the round-the-table discussion of who 3 knows what of potential consequence for circumstances on 4 the ground. And that I do remember the comment being 5 made, but I don't know by who. 6 Q: I'd asked you earlier about the 7 prospect of an injunction being sought -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Do you recall that discussion and 10 would you tell us about that? 11 A: I do remember the discussion. Not 12 being a lawyer, I did not engage in the discussion. And 13 it was my memory of that part of the discussion was that 14 it was put on the table as a possible tool that the OPP 15 might use if they were to present something to the 16 occupiers. 17 But again, not being a lawyer, the nuances 18 of it were somewhat lost on me. 19 Q: You did understand, however, that the 20 MNR would have some role in this, did you? 21 A: I understood that the MNR field 22 staff, Les Kobayashi being one of the most active, would 23 play a role in contributing evidence and evidentiary 24 material to the Attorney General's office in drafting the 25 request for an injunction in support of the OPP.

1 Q: Okay. There was some discussion as 2 well, Mr. Bangs, about the time lines surrounding the 3 obtaining of an injunction and so forth. 4 Do you recall that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what can you tell us about that? 7 A: That there was considerable 8 discussion about just the length of time it takes to get 9 before a Judge. And I believe it was suggested by someone 10 from the Attorney General's office that it could be later 11 that week, or possibly even the following week before, 12 through the normal course of things, they could actually 13 get in front of a Judge and -- and present their 14 material. 15 Q: Okay. Did that timeline present any 16 concern for you at all? 17 A: Not for me, no. 18 Q: Anybody else? 19 A: There was discussion in the room 20 about trying to find quicker -- a quicker process to 21 proceed to obtaining an injunction. 22 Q: And do you -- 23 A: The injunction -- 24 Q: -- recall -- I'm sorry? 25 A: The injunction, was what I was just

1 saying. 2 Q: And do you recall who was leading 3 that discussion to find a quicker way? 4 A: I believe Ms. Hutton was asking 5 questions in the development of options as to what -- 6 whether the timeline indicated by the Attorney General 7 staff was the only timeline that might be pursued. 8 Q: And toward that end do you recall 9 her, again speaking on behalf of the Premier, words to 10 the effect that, you know, Let's get this done in a day 11 or two (2), we're not going to wait? 12 A: No, I don't remember that. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: I'll ask you to turn to Tab Number 9, 17 Mr. Bangs, of the book of documents in front of you; 18 those are handwritten notes of Eileen Hipfner. First of 19 all, do you know Eileen Hipfner? 20 A: No. 21 Q: All right. And they're marked as 22 Exhibit P-510 in this matter and you'll see on the very 23 first page that there's a date at the top, the 5th day of 24 the 9th month 1995, Aboriginal Emergencies Committee 25 meeting.

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: You've had an opportunity to review 3 these? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And does it accord first of all with 6 your recollection of -- generally, of the discussion that 7 occurred at that meeting? 8 A: Generally -- generally, yes. 9 Q: And if I can take you to page 4 of 10 that document. And right at the -- at the top there's 11 comments that evidently are attributed to you. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. 14 "We can afford to wait." 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: "If get injunction we'll be expected 17 to move in. Don't want to escalate 18 situation." 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Does that reflect the -- the position 21 that you had taken -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- and advocated at that meeting? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. Did anybody share that

1 view with you? 2 A: I believe that the people from the 3 Attorney General's office certainly did. 4 Q: All right. What about the field 5 staff in MNR that were participating on the telephone? 6 A: I don't know that they disagreed. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: You had mentioned earlier that Mr. 11 Fox had a -- a role to play within the meeting? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Do you know what position Mr. Fox had 14 taken with respect to the issue of -- of the timelines 15 that were being discussed? 16 A: I believe he was advocating that 17 there needn't be any haste. So, consistent with what 18 I've indicated here in the notes. 19 Q: And as a result of those two (2) 20 positions, that is that there was no need for haste and - 21 - and I'm assuming on the other side of that, there was 22 some degree of wanting to get things done a little 23 quicker I think is the way you put it. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And as a result of those two (2)

1 positions, did you get a sense that there was any 2 conflict in the room beyond that, or -- or a level of; 3 perhaps I can ask you that? 4 A: My interpretation of what was 5 happening was that there was a discussion about options 6 and getting all of the options on the table from one end 7 of the spectrum to the other. 8 There was a discussion about trying to 9 move the process along quicker and there was a discussion 10 about -- that the fact that it would perhaps take longer. 11 And I remember the discussion occurring. 12 Q: Do you know what the outcome of that 13 discussion was as -- again, just in relation to those two 14 (2) positions respecting timelines? 15 A: No. I don't know that there was an 16 outcome that we both discussed at the meeting. But, I 17 don't know that there was an outcome at that meeting. 18 Q: All right. And you came away from 19 that meeting, I take it -- well, maybe just ask what was 20 your impression then when you came away from the meeting? 21 A: The -- the main issue that affected 22 me coming out of that meeting was the notion that my 23 Minister was being asked or directed to be the main 24 spokesperson on this matter. 25 Q: And who provided that direction?

1 A: That came from the Premier's office 2 from Deb Hutton. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And I had initially indicated, even 5 prior to speaking with my Minister, that I didn't think 6 it was appropriate for the Minister of Natural Resources 7 to be the lead spokesperson on this matter. 8 Again, because of the history over the 9 course of the summer we were repeatedly told that it was 10 an OPP matter. The OPP were the lead. And then in the - 11 - once something has occurred we're being told that the 12 Ministry of Natural Resources is to be the lead 13 spokesperson. 14 I did not agree with that and expressed 15 that. And -- and subsequent to that, confirmed that my 16 Minister felt the same way. 17 Q: As a result of receiving these 18 directions from the Premier's office, what did you do? 19 A: Returned to the Ministry and notified 20 my Minister that this discussion had occurred and that 21 this was the role he was being asked to play. He did not 22 agree, but having been given the direction he then -- he 23 carried it out, but was not -- certainly not entirely 24 comfortable in doing so. 25 Q: And what was the responsibility of

1 the Ministry as a result of receiving these directions 2 insofar as preparing your -- your Minister to take and -- 3 and to discharge these directions that had been provided 4 now? 5 A: The Ministry in consultation with 6 ONAS, the Attorney General's office, the Ministry of the 7 Solicitor General, but the Ministry of Natural Resources 8 being the lead crafted a series of messages -- a 9 suggested message note for the Minister that came through 10 the Deputy's office and was provided to the Minister, 11 that he then used at a media availability later that day. 12 And he did as instructed. 13 Q: And if I could just ask you to look 14 at Tab Number 11, it's Inquiry Number 3000806? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: It's a Minister's note from Ron 17 Vrancart. You've identified him as being the Deputy 18 Minister? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And it concerns the occupation of the 21 Park. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Suggested responses. Is this the 24 document that you're referring to? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: All right. Now, I'm not sure, Mr. 2 Commissioner, if this has been made an exhibit yet and... 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: What's it's number 4 again? 5 MR. DONALD WORME: 3000806. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 7 if I -- 8 MR. DONALD WORME: I don't -- I don't 9 believe it has been. The trouble obviously is that some 10 of these documents appear within portions of others, 11 bearing a different Inquiry document number. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 918. P-918. 13 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 18 Q: The role that you would have played, 19 Mr. Bangs, in developing this Minister's note, can you -- 20 can you tell us what that might have been? 21 A: I was the recipient of the note 22 having been vetted by the -- the Deputy's office and 23 signed off by Deputy Vrancart and I did not object. I 24 don't know that I had a -- much of a role from an 25 editorial point of view, but certainly didn't object to

1 the note that was being presented to us. It was 2 consistent with what had been discussed and the 3 information that we were working with at that time. 4 Q: Going back to the meeting do you 5 recall there being discussion with respect to the 6 possibility of a burial site being within the Park 7 boundaries? 8 A: I believe it did come up at the 9 September 5th meeting. Again it was not anything that 10 was presented as a definite. 11 It was asked around the table what 12 different Ministries in the Province knew about the -- 13 the possible existence of a burial site and no one was 14 able to provide evidence or any indication even that that 15 might, in fact, be true. 16 And again it was presented to us as the 17 result of rumours and speculation in the community as to 18 why this occupation might be occurring. And with -- in 19 the absence of an identified spokesperson for the group 20 the OPP had no one to confirm whether or not that was the 21 reason or one (1) of the reasons why this action was 22 occurring. That's the way it was presented to us and the 23 way I remember it. 24 Q: All right. Do you know whether that 25 information was -- was supported or not supported by

1 anybody within the community? 2 A: I remember as part of the information 3 presented at -- I believe it was on the -- at the 4 September 5th meeting, and I don't know if it was from 5 MNR staff or Sol Gen staff, but the comment was made that 6 Chief Bressette had indicated publicly that the occupiers 7 were not speaking on behalf of their community. And I 8 don't know -- I can't say that he discounted the comments 9 that were -- that were being attributed to them. I can't 10 say that. 11 But, I do know that -- I do remember quite 12 vividly that Chief Bressette made the point that these 13 people were not speaking on behalf of, or with authority 14 of their community. That's -- that was presented to us 15 in one (1) of these meetings. It's certainly one (1) of 16 the things I remember. 17 Q: All right. And after -- after 18 leaving the Committee meeting you told us that your -- 19 your next step was to brief your Minister? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yeah. And inform him that he would 22 now be taking the lead on communications? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And his response to that was, I think 25 you said he shared your -- your view?

1 A: Yes, and -- and the view of the 2 Deputy. The Deputy and I shared the concern that it was 3 not appropriate for the Minister of Natural Resources to 4 be the lead spokesperson on a matter. 5 It just happened to be taking place in a 6 Provincial Park, but it had much broader consequences, 7 potentially. 8 Q: And further to the briefing that you 9 provided your Minister and the document that was prepared 10 through the Deputy Minister's office, what happened? 11 A: Later that day, there was a media 12 availability that occurred that was not planned by us, 13 but it occurred in the lobby of the Minister's office. 14 Our receptionist notified us that there 15 were several reporters assembling in our lobby. And the 16 Minister then went out and basically stuck to the script 17 but did encounter the media and did speak to the media 18 about the matter. 19 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether or not 20 this -- these documents for such notes to be provided to 21 the Premier's office in the same fashion as you'd 22 indicated earlier when matters would come up, you would 23 inform the office as a matter of protocol? 24 A: The..? 25 Q: The speaking notes. The Minister's--

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- notes? 3 A: Yes. They would have been provided 4 both to cabinet office and to the Premier's office. 5 Q: If I can direct you to Tab number 18. 6 There's a series of documents in there. It's marked as 7 P-732. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: The initial fax cover page is -- 10 would appear to come from you to Shelly Spiegel? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And you've had a chance to 13 look at these before coming here today, Mr. Bangs? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Do you recognize those documents as 16 being documents you had circulated? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And included in there, there's -- the 19 second portion is a transcript of Minister Hodgson's news 20 conference of that day? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Together with two (2) OPP news 23 releases dated September the 6th? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the letter of notification to MNR

1 field staff? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. Just with respect to the media 4 availability session, that's -- that's a press 5 conference, isn't it? 6 A: I would not describe it as a proper 7 press conference. A press conference in my mind is 8 something that is deliberately arranged with a podium and 9 a microphone and it is -- it's hosted by you. 10 This was not that situation. The media 11 came to our office. 12 Q: All right. It's more of a -- what -- 13 what's been described, perhaps by some, as a scrum? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: Yes, that's a good way to 17 characterise it? 18 Q: And were you -- were you a 19 participant in that? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Given what you've indicated about the 22 position that you and others within the Ministry had 23 taken, respecting the Minister's now taking a lead role 24 in communications, I understand that you had some 25 conversations with Ms. Hutton of the Premier's office on

1 -- around that? 2 A: During this period of time, yes, I 3 did speak with Ms. Hutton and repeatedly expressed our 4 view that it was not appropriate for our Minister to be 5 the lead spokesperson. 6 Q: And how was that view met? 7 A: We were told -- I was told that, for 8 the time being, he was going to be the lead spokesperson. 9 Q: All right. I want to turn nextly to 10 the Committee meeting of September the 6th. 11 Perhaps, just before we leave that, is 12 there any further to your recollection, Mr. Bangs, that 13 you can tell us about -- about September the 5th? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. And we understand that there 16 was a Committee meeting that commenced the first thing in 17 the morning, well, perhaps not the first thing but 18 certainly early in the morning of September the 6th? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you had been invited to that as 21 you had attended the previous meeting? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And what can you tell us about -- 24 about that -- that meeting? 25 A: In terms of format, it was very

1 similar to the one the preceding day. It was an around 2 the table reporting of what people had heard the 3 preceding day and over night. 4 I would describe the meeting as being of a 5 higher level of concern and -- and a bit more charged 6 environment because of the information that was being 7 reported. 8 There were reports being received from Sol 9 Gen and from MNR field staff; suggestions that there had 10 been vandalism, I believe, the suggestion that a -- a 11 building had been burnt. And then this is also the 12 occasion where the issue of gunfire was raised. 13 So at that, hearing the collection of 14 those reports started off the meeting in a much higher 15 level of concern that -- than we'd had the previous day. 16 It seemed to be an escalating situation. 17 Q: Now each of those items you've just 18 mentioned, can you attribute those to any particular 19 speaker? 20 A: The -- the only one that I can 21 specifically attribute from memory is the gunfire 22 suggestion coming from MNR field staff, who I believe to 23 have been Peter Sturdy, reporting over the phone. He was 24 not in the room. 25 Q: Was there any response and reaction

1 to that report of gunfire or anybody within the meeting 2 that you can recall? 3 A: Mr. Fox immediately stopped -- he 4 didn't stop the meeting, but he immediately interjected 5 and indicated that he was not aware of that and that he 6 would have to make efforts to confirm whether or not the 7 OPP had heard that as well. 8 Q: All right. Did you get any 9 impression as to -- as to this -- this -- the difference 10 in the information that was coming forward? And here we 11 have Mr. Fox who evidently was connected to the OPP -- 12 A: Hmm hmm. 13 Q: -- in some fashion as you -- I think 14 as you told us. 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: The -- at that point in the meeting I 18 thought it was actually appropriate and helpful to the 19 meeting that he did it -- that he in fact interjected, 20 because if -- it was important that the meeting 21 participants knew whether or not that was, in fact, true. 22 And he did I think properly interject and 23 indicate that he had to confirm that information and we 24 should not necessarily believe it to be true. And I 25 thought that was appropriate at that point in the

1 meeting. 2 Q: I should perhaps just ask you, the 3 other information that came forward was the vandalism you 4 described? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Can you -- can you recall any further 7 detail beyond the generic wording? 8 A: I believe there was discussion about 9 a building being burnt, but beyond that I don't know. 10 Q: And the building that was burnt, how 11 -- how was that described? What building was it? 12 A: I don't know. I don't remember which 13 building. There are a number of buildings in the Park 14 and I don't recall which one was being referred to. 15 Q: And just so I'm clear, you don't 16 recall who specifically would have been providing that 17 information? 18 A: I believed it to be Peter Sturdy by 19 phone. But Inspector Fox -- Mr. Fox also made reference 20 to some of the events overnight. And I'm not certain 21 which was attributed to which speaker. 22 Q: Might it be a report of burning 23 picnic tables as opposed to a building, Mr. Bangs? 24 A: Possibly. I remember it as a -- as a 25 building but --

1 Q: All right. You've used the words "a 2 bit more charged" in describing or characterizing this 3 meeting from the day previous. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: I'd asked you earlier whether you had 6 a sense of any kind of tension in the -- in the meeting 7 from the day previous. What would you say about this 8 meeting in that respect. 9 A: Now I wouldn't describe it as been 10 tense. I would describe it as the collective group 11 having a higher -- a heightened level of concern and 12 again predominately because of the kind of information 13 that we were hearing was occurring on the ground. 14 Q: Perhaps before I move further into 15 the substance of that meeting, do you recall whether 16 there was any meetings that you would have attended prior 17 to this Committee meeting? 18 A: I don't believe so. 19 Q: You had indicated to us that you had 20 some ongoing discussions with Ms. Hutton regarding the 21 view that you and others within the Ministry shared about 22 who ought to be carrying the lead on this. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Did that continue on that day? 25 A: Yes. It was raised in that -- in

1 that meeting that day and I did make the point again at 2 that meeting. 3 Q: If I could refer you to Tab Number 4 15, Mr. Bangs. These are again notes -- handwritten 5 notes of Eileen Hipfner dated the 6th day of September 6 1995. They're marked as Exhibit P-636. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: You've had a chance to review these 9 before coming here? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And on page 3 of those notes, there 12 are comments there that are evidently attributed to you 13 as well? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. Perhaps I can just read 16 those. It says: 17 "Bangs: Went to M..." 18 Well, maybe I can't read them. 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: "And plan developed at the table. He 21 spoke to eight (8) to ten (10) 22 [something]" 23 But I'm really interested in the third 24 line where it -- where it indicates the way things are 25 escalating:

1 "M [which I'm assuming to be the 2 Minister] doesn't want to carry this 3 especially in threat to nearby lands." 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And at the bottom of the 6 page, there's some comments that this is spiralling out 7 of MNR's hands. 8 A: Where do you see that, sorry? 9 Q: Just at the -- just before the -- 10 A: The bottom of the reference to me? 11 Q: Of that reference, I'm sorry. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: That's right. Four (4) lines down. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And do you recall making those 16 comments? Is that properly attributed to you? 17 A: I believe so, yes. 18 Q: And that's consistent with what 19 you've just told us? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And in relaying this both 22 to the meeting as well as you've told us, to Ms. Hutton, 23 what was the reaction that you were met with? 24 A: That for the time being we would 25 continue to be the spokesperson.

1 Q: Beyond the indication that your 2 Minister would continue to be the lead on this, did Ms. 3 Hutton give you any other indications or impressions of - 4 - of how this matter was being viewed? 5 A: Me directly? 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: No. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: I want to move nextly to your 12 understanding, Mr. Bangs, -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you think 14 this would be a good point to take a morning break? It's 15 up to you? 16 MR. DONALD WORME: Absolutely -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this a 18 good point? 19 MR. DONALD WORME: -- Commissioner. 20 Certainly. 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 22 for fifteen (15) minutes. 23 24 --- Upon recessing at 10:25 a.m. 25 --- Upon resuming at 10:46 a.m.

1 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 3 resumed. Please be seated. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: Thank you, 6 Commissioner. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 9 Q: Mr. Bangs, we were talking about the 10 meeting of September the 6th, 1995, the Interministerial 11 Committee Meeting that you were in attendance at? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: I wanted to ask you about your -- 14 first of all with respect to your understanding of any 15 line as between government or politicians and police and 16 police operations. 17 A: It was something that I was 18 knowledgeable -- knowledgeable about before attending at 19 these meetings and it was also something that was spoken 20 to in the -- the course of these meetings. 21 Q: In terms of being knowledgeable about 22 -- about that what can you tell us about -- about that 23 beyond that? 24 A: That there is a very definite line 25 between the political arm of government and the police,

1 whether it's Provincial or at the Federal level, the 2 RCMP, and that that line is not to be crossed by 3 politicians directing the activities -- the operational 4 activities -- of the police regardless of the force. 5 Q: And when you say you were aware of 6 this; before your duties in government, how did you 7 become aware of that? 8 A: Common knowledge. I mean we learn 9 about it in school and I certainly learned about it in 10 university and -- as part of public administration. It's 11 -- I don't know exactly when I would have first learned 12 about it, but it was certainly something that I was 13 knowledgeable about. 14 Q: You've indicated a flurry of 15 briefings when you first came in as the Executive 16 Assistant to Minister Hodgson. Can you recall whether or 17 not that was part of a briefing? 18 A: Not specifically to police forces, 19 but there was an element of it within the Ministry of 20 Natural Resources in terms of the Minister's relationship 21 and responsibility with conservation officers of the 22 Province who are in some ways regarded as law enforcement 23 officers -- who certainly are law enforcement officers. 24 And a very similar relationship exists 25 between the Minister of Natural Resources and the

1 conservation officers in the province. There's a line 2 and it should -- should not be cross -- shall not be 3 crossed. 4 Q: Given the discussions of the meeting 5 of the 6th, or the days previous, did you get any sense 6 that -- that -- that this was not understood by anybody? 7 A: I believed it to be understood, but I 8 certainly understood it myself. 9 Q: All right. And was there anything 10 that you observed or heard that gave you an impression 11 that it wasn't understood by anyone in the meeting? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Do you recall whether or not anybody 14 in the meeting spoke up to reinforce this issue or... 15 A: On September 6th? 16 Q: Or -- or the day previous? 17 A: I know that it was addressed in one 18 (1) or both of those meetings, but I -- I don't recall by 19 whom. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: In terms of the injunction that was 24 discussed that would be sought -- 25 A: Yes?

1 Q: -- I think you said to provide a 2 further tool for -- for the police service? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. What role did you 5 understand your Ministry to have in obtaining that 6 injunction if any? 7 A: My understanding at the time was that 8 the field staff of MNR, predominantly Mr. Kobayashi, 9 would be providing evidentiary material to the OPP and to 10 -- well, predominantly I suppose to the Attorney 11 General's staff who were drafting the motion for the 12 injunction. 13 Q: And that was the extent of the 14 involvement? 15 A: I believe so. That's my -- my memory 16 of it. 17 Q: But the MNR would certainly be -- be 18 a party to the injunction? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. You'd indicated that 21 there were reports of -- of vandalism and -- and such; 22 guns or gunfire I think? 23 A: That was reported at the meeting, 24 yes. 25 Q: All right. Do you recall any

1 suggestion of the use of baseball bats or people using 2 baseball bats, vandalism of a vehicle? Do you recall 3 anything like that at all, sir? 4 A: Not specifically. I do remember a 5 discussion about vandalism and a fire as I -- as I 6 described earlier, but as far as the details I don't 7 remember. 8 Q: You had expressed, I think you've 9 told us, the reluctance on the part of the Ministry to be 10 lead on this. I -- I take it that that would have 11 continued? 12 A: Yes. It did continue at the 13 September 6th meeting. 14 Q: If I can take you to Tab Number 15 15 being the notes of Eileen Hipfner. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And marked as Exhibit P-636. At page 18 7 of those notes, Mr. Bangs -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- you'll see in the middle of the 21 page there is again a comment that is attributed to you. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: It reads: 24 "MNR may withdraw its staff from area. 25 Not have them participate any longer."

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that's consistent with what 3 you've told us was the position you and others had taken 4 at that meeting in previous -- 5 A: Yes. We had -- both the Minister and 6 I had discussed with the Deputy and the deputy's EA a 7 concern for MNR field staff. And we were having 8 discussions about the possibility of withdrawing staff 9 from that area and reassigning them elsewhere until 10 matters -- or circumstances had changed. 11 Q: Okay. And part of that suggestion 12 about withdrawing field staff was the growing sense of -- 13 of concern you -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- relayed to us -- related to us 16 earlier? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. In terms of some of that 19 information, particularly the gunfire and the response 20 that Mr. Fox evidently was obliged to provide, did you 21 get a sense or did you have any impression about the 22 propriety of that information coming forward to the 23 meeting; the gunfire specifically? 24 A: I don't understand. 25 Q: I -- I'm sorry.

1 A: The appropriateness? 2 Q: Yeah. I -- I realize you -- and 3 recognize that you've told us earlier that you felt that 4 that kind of information was, I believe you use -- used 5 the word helpful. 6 A: Hearing the report from around the 7 table from the various ministries at these meetings was 8 helpful. The information reported about gunfire, I think 9 was -- it was important, I indicated this earlier, that 10 it -- that Mr. Fox interjected and said that he would 11 have to confirm. 12 He was not aware of it and he would have 13 to confirm whether or not that had occurred. And he 14 cautioned that he did not know whether or not it was true 15 and he would have to check it out. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: As far as the appropriateness it was 18 -- it's factually -- it was a fact or a -- it's fact that 19 it was presented in that meeting. I don't know that the 20 information was factual. 21