1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 30th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )    (np)
  5  Katherine Hensel  )    (np)
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein )  (np)      The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )   (np)     George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    ) (np)       Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena  (Army Camp)
 18  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stony
 19  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 20  Colleen Johnson  )   (np)
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )              Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Susan Freeborn   )   (np)
 25  Michelle Pong    )   (np)

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )              Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )    (np)
  8  
  9  Ian Smith        )   (np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (np)
 11  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 12  Jacqueline Horvat )
 13  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 14  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 15  
 16  Mark Sandler       )            Ontario Provincial 
 17  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 18  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 19  
 20  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 21  Karen Jones      )   (np)       Police Association &
 22  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 23  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
 24  Annie Leeks      )   (np)
 25  Jennifer Gleitman )

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  Clem Nabigon     )   (np)
  7  Adriel Weaver     )   (np)       Student-at-Law
  8  
  9  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
 10  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 11  
 12  William Horton   )              Chiefs of Ontario
 13  Matthew Horner   )
 14  Kathleen Lickers )   (np)
 15  
 16  Mark Frederick   )              Christopher Hodgson
 17  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 18  Megan Mackey     )   (np)
 19  Erin Tully       )   (np)
 20  
 21  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 22  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 23  Melissa Panjer   )
 24  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 7 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 204 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 4 P-438 TRANSCRIPTS OF CHATHAM LOGGER 5 TAPE 0146-TRACK 12 "TAC" CHANNEL 6 FOR 06 SEPTEMBER 1995 7 10:27PM - 11:10PM 122 8 P-439 MAP OF IPPERWASH, BOSANQUET TOWNSHIP 9 LAMPTON COUNTY WITH OPP 1993 10 CHECK POINTS MARKED. 163 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon Commencing at 10:33 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed: 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I've been parachuted 13 in. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 15 morning, Ms. Vella. 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, it's not true. Mr. 17 Millar will be just a couple of seconds. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 22 morning, everybody. Good morning. 23 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I guess we 2 really shouldn't have come in yet. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Here he is. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 11 Commissioner. I apologize -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- for the delay. 15 Good morning, Deputy Carson. 16 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir. 17 18 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: If I could, I'd like to go back in 20 time, for a moment, to the telephone call that -- between 21 Stan -- Sergeant Korosec and when he was trying to get a 22 hold of Mr. Dean and the TRU team down in the Pinery 23 Park. 24 And the -- what we've tried to do, 25 Commissioner, is create a better transcript of this. But

1 the issue that I would like to -- I would simply like to 2 play the recording again and then ask Deputy Carson a 3 question with respect to it. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 8 9 September 6, 1995 10 20:25 11 12 Track # 50 13 14 (Unclear) traffic, traffic group. 15 16 .... when we were waiting to take this statement from him 17 (unclear) 18 19 Lacroix is on his way up. To do these guys. 20 21 Operator Marilyn speaking. 22 23 Operator, this is Sergeant Stan Korosec with the Ontario 24 Provincial Police at Forest. I need an emergency cut-in 25 on a phone please. Area code 519-243-8131. It's busy

1 and it's imperative I get a hold of the person on that 2 line. 3 4 Stancore, right? 5 6 Pardon me? 7 8 Your last name is Stancore? 9 10 Korosec - K.O.R.O.S.E.C. 11 12 (I guess nothing to do ... take a step back) 13 14 Thank you. 15 16 And who are you trying to reach there please? 17 18 Kent Skinner. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: Someone, and I believe it's -- I'm 22 trying to identify the voices, Deputy Carson. The last 23 time we spoke of -- you identified Dale Linton's voice, 24 and you identified your voice. And there's a third voice 25 that can be heard on this telephone conversation when we

1 listen to it. 2 A: In -- in the background? 3 Q: In the background; it's in the 4 background. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 7 8 Korosec - K.O.R.O.S.E.C. 9 10 (I guess nothing to do ... take a step back) 11 12 Thank you. 13 14 And who are you trying to reach there please? 15 16 Kent Skinner. 17 18 Thank you. 19 20 (Our objective before this build up ... now we have this 21 shit ....) 22 23 ... Make an arrest). 24 25 (What happens if we just draw back? and evacuate some

1 houses.? 2 3 (Absolutely not.) 4 5 (We can do that too. What basically what we've done...) 6 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: There was a voice that said 10 "absolutely not." Did you hear that voice? 11 A: No. 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 14 15 Our objective before this build up ... now we have this 16 shit ....) 17 18 ... Make an arrest). 19 20 (What happens if we just draw back? and evacuate some 21 houses.? 22 23 (Absolutely not.) 24 25 (We can do that too. What basically what we've done...)

1 2 THE WITNESS: I -- I heard it that time, 3 yes. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And do you recognize that voice? 7 A: I'm not sure, but it sounds, 8 possibly, Mark Wright. 9 Q: And does that -- do you recall today 10 if Mark Wright was part of this discussion with -- 11 A: I -- I don't -- quite frankly I don't 12 recall him being present during the discussion with Dale 13 Linton. 14 Q: Okay. Now we could move forward. 15 When we left on May 19th, we had -- it was at a point 16 where you had got to the MNR parking lot where the TRU 17 team TOC was set up, and the ERT TOC was set up. 18 And the -- when -- on May 19th, we 19 referred to Exhibit 410, and your note that indicated 20 that you, at 21:55, Lacroix and the CMU were at the TOC 21 location, putting the -- at the TOC location. 22 And then we played a conversation that 23 took place at 21:30 -- a communication at 21:34 which you 24 took as being -- your understanding was that the TRU 25 teams were being dropped off to provide observation.

1 Do you recall that? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And we also discussed the -- the 4 reference to the ERT officers who were on observation. 5 Now, can you tell me, at this point time, 6 at nine (9) -- approximately 9:30 on September 6th, 1995, 7 the -- with respect to the TRU team members that were 8 deployed, how many TRU team members were deployed down 9 towards the Park? 10 A: I can't tell you with any certainty 11 whether it was four (4) or six (6), but it would have 12 been at least two (2) teams of two (2), possibly a third 13 team. 14 That decision of how many officers to use 15 for that manoeuver that was requested of Skinner, it 16 would have been his decision to use the appropriate 17 personnel. 18 Q: And if -- and -- so the decision as 19 to how many TRU teams to put down, to do the task that 20 you wanted done, was up to Kent Skinner? 21 A: Right, I assign him the task, and it 22 would be up to him to deploy the appropriate people for 23 the task. Now, there was two (2) things being requested 24 as -- as I recall. One (1) was to get a -- a look at the 25 kiosk, and then the other was to provide cover, on either

1 side of the Parkway Road, for the crowd management team 2 that was about to come up the road. 3 Q: And as I understand it as well, the - 4 - from what you said last day, that the TRU team was to 5 take a look at what was going on in the parking lot? 6 A: That's true, there was -- and there 7 was already an ERT observer team that were in that 8 general area, at this same time, as well. 9 I think you'll find from the transcripts, 10 and from the command post minutes, some of the activity 11 is reported back through those personnel who were ERT 12 officers as opposed to the TRU officers. 13 Q: And... 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me, 18 Commissioner. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And so at this point in time the -- 24 could you hear the communications on the Total Access 25 Channel?

1 A: I was outside of my police vehicle, 2 as the crowd management team are forming up, and dealing 3 with the TRU team personnel, Kent Skinner in particular. 4 Some of it I may have heard, and some of 5 it may have been provided to me by others. I didn't 6 carry a portable radio, so I would have heard all of the 7 transmissions on my person. 8 Q: Okay. And there was a transmission 9 at 21:35 that Lima 1 to all checkpoints, which I am going 10 to play. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: If I said 21:21, I meant -- I should 15 have said 21:35. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 18 19 September 6, 1995 20 21:35 21 Track # 2135 22 23 Lima One to all checkpoints - stand by. 24 Lima One to all checkpoints, be advised in the near 25 future Checkpoints Delta and Alpha will be relieved by

17
  1  uniform.  Will be relieved by uniform at which time Delta
  2  and Alpha will return to the TOC.  Delta and Alpha will
  3  return to the TOC.  Delta will return via Ipperwash Road. 
  4  When Delta is relieved, Delta you are to advise Lima One
  5  at which point Checkpoint Charlie will also leave by Army
  6  Camp Road to 21 Highway and the Ipperwash Road to the
  7  TOC.  Checkpoint Delta is that ten four?
  8  
  9  Lima One, Checkpoint Delta � ten four.
 10  
 11  Checkpoint Charlie, is that ten four?
 12  
 13  Charlie ten four
 14  
 15  Checkpoint Alpha � ten four?
 16  
 17  Alpha ten four.
 18  
 19  CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
 20                 Q:   And what was your understanding as to
 21  the -- what was going to happen as a result of this
 22  communication with respect to uniformed members Delta and
 23  Alpha checkpoints?
 24                 A:   What was happening here is, there was
 25  direction being given that once uniformed members arrived

1 at the checkpoints, the ERT officers were to move to the 2 TOC location. 3 Q: And the TOC location being discussed 4 in this communication is the Tactical Operations Centre 5 at the MNR parking lot? 6 A: That's right, sir. 7 Q: And then, at 21:37. 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 10 11 September 6, 1995 12 21:37 13 14 Track # 2137 15 16 TRU suburban to all ERT members on the ground be advised 17 that TRU members are deploying. Go ahead. 18 19 Tex (unclear). 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: So, at 21:37 that appears to be a 23 communication from the TRU members. Did you hear that? 24 A: Well, it -- it's -- it's a 25 communication that TRU is deploying, it wouldn't be TRU

1 necessarily giving that information. 2 Q: And the -- would be -- they were 3 deploying down East Parkway Drive? 4 A: Yes. I believe they were dropped off 5 in the vicinity and worked their way into position. 6 Q: Okay. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And there's a communication at 21:38. 11 12 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 13 14 September 6, 1995 15 21:38 16 17 Track # 2138 18 19 Lima One to all checkpoints advise which checkpoint has 20 prisoners van. 21 22 Checkpoint Bravo is equipped with a prisoner van. 23 24 Yeah, ten four, be advised it is to be left at the TOC 25 with the keys in

1 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And at this point in time, at 3 21:38, what do you take from this communication? 4 A: Well, the supervisor is checking 5 to determination of a prisoner van. 6 Q: And the prisoner van is to be left 7 at the TOC? 8 A: At checkpoint Bravo which is right 9 outside the TOC, yes, on Parkway Road. 10 Q: And... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: There's a communication at 21:39. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 17 18 September 6, 1995 19 21:39 20 21 Track # 2139 22 23 Lima Two from Checkpoint Delta 24 25 Checkpoint Delta, you calling TRU?

1 Lima Two from Checkpoint Delta 2 3 Lima Two � go ahead 4 5 We're in a lot of traffic down here, and a lot of 6 traffic, we're probably going to start getting some rocks 7 coming in any minute 8 9 Ten four Lima One, you read that? 10 11 Lima One to Delta 12 13 Lima One from Lima Two 14 15 Go ahead Lima Two 16 17 Did you read Delta, advises lots happening there, 18 expecting rocks to fly momentarily? 19 20 Yeah, ten four. I'm trying to find out from Delta 21 whether it appears that the women and children have left 22 the camp or not. 23 24 Lima One, Delta � women and children have left earlier 25 on. They passed this checkpoint earlier.

1 Right, ten four Checkpoint Delta. How many vehicles has 2 he got down there? 3 4 Two. There's a big dump truck, there's the batmobile. 5 They've just started a large bonfire. I told the people 6 here if we start getting fire bombs, we're out of here. 7 8 Right, ten four. They're inside the camp though? 9 10 Ten four. They're just inside on the road. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: At this point in time, checkpoint 14 Delta is up near Highway 21, is that not correct? 15 A: I believe so, yes. 16 Q: And what's being referred to is -- 17 what is your understanding of what is being referred to? 18 A: It sounds likes there is a -- a 19 number of people just over the fence and they're 20 anticipating having rocks heaved at them, shortly. 21 Q: And -- but -- and it -- where -- your 22 under -- what is your understanding of the location of 23 where this is taking place? 24 A: That's the checkpoint at Highway 21 25 near the -- just outside of the entrance of the military

1 base, closer to the 21 Highway, but on Army Camp Road. 2 Q: On Army Camp Road and that'd be -- 3 people being referred to are inside the army camp? 4 A: That's -- that's what it sounds like, 5 yes. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And were you advised of this 10 transmission, do you recall? 11 A: I don't recall that transmission at 12 all, quite frankly. 13 Q: Okay. Then at 21:41 there's a 14 communication between Lima 2, Oscar 1, and Lima 1. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 17 18 September 6, 1995 19 21:41 20 21 Track # 2141 22 23 Lima One. Oscar One. 24 25 Go ahead Oscar One

1 We've got a lot of traffic here, ATVs on the beach 2 looking for traffic on the road and cars stopped 3 (unclear) people all over the place here we're going back 4 a little bit (unclear) 5 6 Ten four 7 8 Lima One to Delta. Lima One to Delta 9 10 Lima One, Delta � go ahead 11 12 Okay, Lima One from Delta � stand by one. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: That's very unclear, did you 16 understand any of that? 17 A: It -- very, very little of it, it's 18 over-modulating by the officer who's transmitting back. 19 Q: And the officer -- Oscar 1 was the 20 ERT that 21 was -- 22 A: Yeah, he -- he would be an ERT 23 observer. 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: So, in all likelihood would have been

1 positioned in and around the cottages, off of Parkway 2 Road, in the general vicinity of the Sandy Parking Lot, 3 or in that general area. What -- what's happening here 4 is that he's probably transmitting back trying to keep 5 his voice level low, but because he has the microphone 6 positioned so close to his mouth, that it comes across 7 very muffled. 8 Q: All right. And then, there's a 9 transmission at 21:42 between Lima 1 and Oscar. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 12 13 September 6, 1995 14 21:42 15 Track # 2142 16 17 Lima One Oscar 18 19 Go Lima One 20 21 We got people close by. 22 23 Got the day shift down, coming down right now in crowd 24 management formation to drive them down right now 25

1 They're on the way Oscar 2 Oscar One Go ahead 3 4 Can you confirm if Delta people are I/A we've got people 5 in the (unclear). Just want to confirm of Delta I/A. 6 7 Oscar One from Lima One, if you've gotta get out of 8 there. Get out of there. Ten four. 9 10 10-4. 11 12 Advise when you have. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: And this communication is at 21:42, 16 and the -- it's a communication between Lima 1 and Oscar 17 1? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And the -- Lima 1 is at the mobile 20 command unit in Forest? 21 A: Yes. I believe that's Sergeant -- 22 Sergeant Graham we're hearing. 23 Q: On the... 24 A: On the radio as Lima 1. 25 Q: And Sergeant Graham can be heard to

1 say: 2 "Got the day shift down, coming down 3 right now in crowd management formation 4 to drive them down right now." 5 Did you hear that on the tape? 6 A: Something to the essence of that, 7 yes. 8 Q: And had a decision been made at 9 21:42, which is 9:42, to send the crowd management unit 10 down the East Parkway Drive? 11 A: Well, they were being formed up in 12 the TOC parking lot, at that point I don't believe I had 13 given the authorization to leave yet, but clearly they 14 were being formed up and Graham would have known that. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: But the context here, I -- I'm not 17 sure if -- if it's clear is it? It looks like the -- 18 Oscar team is looking for support of some sort. They're 19 obviously concerned about their position is why Graham 20 would have told them, if necessary, just pull back. 21 Q: Yes. And now Delta, at this point, 22 was still up at Highway -- near Highway 21? 23 A: That's right. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 Q: And in the scribed notes it's 2 reported -- these items are reported in the scribe notes, 3 but what I'm trying to understand is, with respect to 4 these communications: (a) what your understanding of -- 5 is happening and (b) what, if anything, you were told 6 about these particular communications that we're 7 listening to right now. 8 Because at this point, you're down at the 9 MNR parking lot. 10 A: Right. What I can tell you is I -- I 11 knew they were issues with our -- our observation post 12 that there was certainly activity in that parking lot. 13 And some of the transmissions while I was speaking to the 14 likes of -- whether it's Lacroix or other officers there, 15 as -- as I'm standing there I would have heard some of 16 the transmissions over the radio as -- as they were 17 transmitted back. 18 Because each officer would be carrying a 19 portable with a lapel mike, which would have been 20 broadcasting off their shoulder, technically. 21 Q: So some of these you may have heard 22 when you were there? 23 A: Right. And -- and at one -- at some 24 point I end up moving to the TRU team vehicle, and I 25 would have heard all the transmissions from that point.

1 Q: The next transmission is one at 2 21:46. 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 5 6 September 6, 1995 7 21:46 8 9 Track # 2146 10 11 Oscar team on the ground from TAC one. 12 13 Oscar team on the ground from TAC one. 14 15 Oscar, who's calling? 16 17 Oscar team from TAC one, can you go back to the house you 18 just passed? 19 20 That's 10-4. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And can you tell us who, if you know, 24 is TAC 1. 25 A: It's likely the TRU team leader or

1 somebody designated by him; whether it's one of his men, 2 or himself I'm not sure. 3 Q: Do you recognize that voice? 4 A: I'm not sure. I -- I don't think 5 it's Kent Skinner, but it's possible. It's just not 6 quite clear enough to tell. 7 Q: And do you under -- what is your 8 understanding as to what is happening as a result of this 9 transmission? 10 A: Well the -- the TRU team officers are 11 moving into position, and the OSCAR teams are withdrawing 12 from positions, and obviously they're trying to make some 13 connection there as they're, for lack of a better term, 14 trading places. 15 Q: Okay. Then there's a transmission at 16 21:48, and I believe this is Wade Lacroix. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 19 20 September 6, 1995 21 21:48 22 23 Track # 2148 24 25 I need a one district officer to attend at Lima Two to

1 obtain some equipment from the blue van, asap. 2 3 P.C. Root one district I'm at the blue van right now. Go 4 ahead. 5 6 Ten four if you can get a shield over here please, one 7 shield. 8 9 I'll send it right in. 10 11 Right in. 12 13 10-4 Mike. 14 15 I/A to Wade. 16 17 10-4. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: Do you recognize any of the voices on 21 that transmission? 22 A: No, sir, I'm sorry. 23 Q: And then at ... 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 Q: The transmission at 21:49: 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 4 5 September 6, 1995 6 21:49 7 8 Track # 2149 9 10 Delta from Lima One � what's the status like down there? 11 12 Checkpoint Delta from Lima One 13 14 Lima One Checkpoint Delta. I'm very busy down here I 15 wouldn't put uniforms in here just right now, ten four. 16 17 Ten four. Checkpoint Charlie from Lima One. What's your 18 status like? 19 20 We're getting the odd vehicle by here as instructed. 21 22 Ten four. Can I .. you think it's okay if I relieve that 23 ... relieve that position or should I relieve it with 24 uniforms? 25

1 With the road blocked off at either end. Its probably 2 not necessary we be here. 3 4 Charlie � should uniform be there or can we just 5 disregard it? 6 7 Disregard it. 8 9 Okay, Charlie � you want to 1019 the TOC? 1019 the TOC? 10 You know which way not to go and you'll be supplement to 11 the CMU that's forming up down there as an arrest team. 12 10-4. 13 14 10-4. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And, what's your understanding as to 18 what was to happen as a result of this transmission if 19 anything? 20 A: Well, what they're looking at there 21 is, there's some roadblocks in place. It sounds like the 22 one on Parkway Drive and what they've asked is, is there 23 a need for the checkpoint in front of the TOC or can they 24 just have the officers go into the -- the TOC and be 25 available for the crowd management unit.

1 Q: And perhaps we could take you back 2 to Exhibit 437, which is the computer file with the 3 photos that we did last week, because I think that 4 checkpoint Charlie was not in the location that you just 5 told us. It'll come back up on the screen and we need 6 the Army Camp Road and Highway 21 to -- to show the 7 checkpoints on Army Camp Road. 8 And, checkpoint Charlie or Checkpoint "C" 9 was on Army Camp Road? 10 A: Oh, correct, you're right, yes. 11 Q: And so, the checkpoint on Army Camp 12 Road that's referred to as "C" was being removed and the 13 officers were being sent to the TOC? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And, they were to act as an arrest 16 team? 17 A: I didn't hear that, specifically, but 18 they would be available for the CMU leader to us. 19 Now, whether he indicate arrest team or 20 not, I -- I didn't discern that. 21 Q: Okay. Perhaps we'll just play that 22 last part of that conversation -- play the whole... 23 24 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 25

1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The gremlins have got 2 us, Deputy Carson. Sometimes the... 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 5 6 September 6, 1995 7 21:49 8 9 Track # 2149 10 11 Delta from Lima One � what's the status like down there? 12 13 Checkpoint Delta from Lima One 14 15 Lima One Checkpoint Delta. I'm very busy down here I 16 wouldn't put uniforms in here just right now, ten four. 17 18 Ten four. Checkpoint Charlie from Lima One. What's your 19 status like? 20 21 We're getting the odd vehicle by here as instructed. 22 23 Ten four. Can I .. you think it's okay if I relieve that 24 ... relieve that position or should I relieve it with 25 uniforms?

1 With the road blocked off at either end. Its probably 2 not necessary we be here. 3 4 Charlie � should uniform be there or can we just 5 disregard it? 6 7 Disregard it. 8 9 Okay, Charlie � you want to 1019 the TOC? 1019 the TOC? 10 You know which way not to go and you'll be supplement to 11 the CMU that's forming up down there as an arrest team. 12 10-4. 13 14 10-4. 15 16 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, it sounds like it says 18 supplement the CMU as in arrest team. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: As an arrest team? 22 A: That's what it sounds like. 23 Q: And 10-19 is simply -- it means to -- 24 to -- 25 A: Come back --

1 Q: -- to the TOC? 2 A: Yeah, to come back to the TOC, yes, 3 return to. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Commissioner, I may 8 be the only one, but I'm rather confused by how we're 9 proceeding on with this witness. 10 We have here in Mr. Carson one of the most 11 crucial actors in this whole scenario and we're spending 12 literally hours having him serve as an interpreter of 13 some barely audible tapes which he may or may not have 14 heard at the time and most of which he's not able to 15 actually decipher. 16 I would have thought that what we need to 17 hear from Mr. Carson is his evidence as to what he 18 recalls happened, what he did, what he recalls doing and 19 why he recalls doing it. 20 And what we have here is something that 21 doesn't even qualify as a particularly a way of 22 refreshing the -- the witness' memory. They're not his 23 records, they're not necessarily conversations he heard 24 at the time and I'm -- I'm left really unclear. 25 Even if eventually we get to hear what

1 this witness' memory is of the events, it will be 2 impossible for you, Mr. Commissioner, to distinguish 3 between what he has an independent recollection of and 4 what is merely his interpretation of these audio 5 recordings. 6 And the most important point is we're -- 7 we're losing the force of the importance of this witness' 8 evidence and we should -- we should be hearing it as he 9 remembers it today and we should -- we should hear it 10 without having it interrupted and, frankly, diluted to 11 the point of almost insignificance by having him 12 endlessly comment on inaudible chatter. 13 So I'm -- I'm -- I'm just -- I may be the 14 only one and if I am, I'm happy to sit and listen, but 15 frankly, my submission is it's not -- it's not an 16 effective way to proceed and it's not a good use of time. 17 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Commissioner, I arise 18 on the simple point of My Friend who just spoke to say 19 he's not the only one. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, this is 21 as you know, an investigation and that's what we're 22 trying to do. It's not a trial, it's not a court, it's 23 not a -- it's a -- it's not that kind of civil -- either 24 civil or criminal proceeding. 25 You're instructed and your mandate is to

1 investigate and we're simply doing part of -- it's -- 2 what -- this is information that was available and at the 3 time and I'm -- from this witness, who has given evidence 4 and will give more evidence this morning, I'm simply 5 asking him what he knew or did not know or understand as 6 to what was happening under his command at the relevant 7 period -- at this period of time on September the 6th. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Where are 9 you going to go -- what's going to happen from hereon in? 10 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Well, Commissioner, 11 if Mr. Millar were asking the Witness the question that 12 he just said he was asking the Witness, I'd have no 13 problem. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah. 15 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: What he's asking the 16 Witness to do is to endlessly comment on -- on tapes that 17 -- and -- and I would have thought that if Commission 18 Counsel was properly prepared, Commission Counsel would 19 know in advance whether or not this Witness had any 20 relevant evidence to give on a particular tape or not as 21 opposed to having us listen to audiotape and then have 22 the Witness say in two (2) or three (3) words that he can 23 barely make it out himself. 24 So, it's not a good use of time and it is 25 blunting the impact of this Inquiry if we continue on

1 that way and in terms of an investigation, Commissioner, 2 the value -- any -- any competent investigation will 3 first try to determine what the Witness actually 4 remembers, unprompted by a whole quagmire of -- of 5 inaudible audiotapes. 6 So, we -- we've waited a long time to -- 7 to have this Witness answer for what he did on that 8 evening and in -- in my submission we're entitled to know 9 that and to know what this Witness actually remembers 10 without having him taken through all this material. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, thank 12 you. Thank you. I think Mr. Millar is going to ask him 13 what he knows -- 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Of course, that's what 15 I've been doing for the last -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think so. 17 Where do you go from here, Mr. Millar? I mean, how do 18 you anticipate this Witness going from here on? 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, we're going to 20 finish -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How many 22 more of these tapes? I know there's one (1) long one 23 that you... 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We have a few and 25 there's one (1) very long one and the -- which we will

1 get to in due course unless you tell me not to. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we're 3 having people standing up and I'm anxious to get on with 4 it. Having the objections isn't going to make us go any 5 faster, but I do appreciate them. 6 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I'm -- I'm -- wasn't 7 to -- to rise, but I've a couple of concerns. Frankly, 8 for an enterprise that is supposed to be getting at the 9 facts, I'm finding hearing these recordings, although 10 sometimes they aren't -- it -- it isn't possible to get 11 the content from. I'm finding hearing the -- the 12 recordings to be helpful, first of all, in understanding 13 the facts. 14 And with respect, every lawyer and, I'm 15 sure, yourself in this room can distinguish between what 16 the Witness is saying that -- that is his observations 17 and what is interpretation, reasonable interpretation, 18 which is quite helpful in understanding these facts and I 19 -- I must say I -- I'm very concerned to hear the sort of 20 rhetoric that I'm hearing this morning suggesting that 21 Commission Counsel's not prepared -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 23 MR. PETER DOWNARD: -- or that somehow 24 Commission Counsel's trying to obscure the dramatic 25 portions of the evidence. I think that 's quite

1 inappropriate and we could do without it. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 3 very much, Mr. Downard. I'm not anxious to have all 4 lawyers speaking on this issue. I'd like to move on. 5 Yes, Mr... 6 MR. MARK SANDLER: I'm just going say 7 briefly, I've been quiet up until this point, even though 8 Deputy Commissioner Carson is -- is my Witness. 9 This is always a dilemma when you've got 10 two (2) facts that -- that intrude. The first is, that 11 we're asking a Witness to describe events that occurred 12 ten (10) years ago. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 MR. MARK SANDLER: And -- and for Mr. 15 Horton to expect, with great respect, that with -- with 16 absolute clarity this Witness will remember which 17 conversations he heard and which parts of them he heard 18 and which he didn't, isn't really doing justice to this 19 Witness or any other Witness, frankly, in these 20 proceedings. 21 And, second of all, when you have the 22 interrelationship between chronology and personal 23 knowledge, it's always a dilemma for Commission Counsel 24 or anyone else to decide how much of it to play to an 25 individual witness, but the chronology is helpful and as

1 I will submit as we get to some of the conversations, 2 communications, a little bit later on, critical whether 3 or not -- whether or not Deputy Commissioner actually 4 heard each and every one of them, but critical to 5 articulate the chronology and explain what happened. 6 So, in my submission, it's -- it's a 7 difficult task and I don't envy Commission Counsel, but I 8 don't see any real alternative in dealing with it in this 9 way. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not 11 anxious to hear anymore on this. I think that Commission 12 Counsel is very well prepared. I'm aware of that. I 13 know how difficult it's been to prepare this for some of 14 the reasons that Mr. Sandler just said and I think we're 15 making progress and although it is difficult, I think we 16 all acknowledge that, I think we're making progress and I 17 just want to keep on going. 18 So, if you would carry on, Mr. Millar, I 19 would appreciate it. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: The -- with respect to the -- at 23 21:49, the TRU team is down in -- as we've heard, is down 24 towards the -- the Park, and at this point in time had 25 you heard anything back, do you recall, from the TRU

1 team? 2 A: I don't believe so. 3 Q: And the -- at 21:54 there's a 4 communication between Lima 2 and Lima 1 with respect to 5 the CMU and an arrest team. 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 8 9 September 6, 1995 10 21:54 11 12 Track # 2154 13 14 Lima Two - Lima One 15 16 Lima One, Lima Two go ahead 17 18 I need any ERT that are at the TOC site there, I got five 19 coming from Charlie they are to supplement the CMU as 20 best as possible as an arrest team and anyone left over I 21 want manning those two vans that are down there, that'll 22 be two in each and they're to remain at the TOC unless 23 they're called to pick up 1092's. Is that ten four? 24 25 10-4. I only have two people here. I'm not sure what's

1 outside right now. You're not talking about the check 2 point are you? 3 4 No. The ones that are at the TOC, that aren't doing 5 anything � how many you got at the check point Alpha? 6 7 I've got two people at the TOC here right now and at 8 check point Alpha I should have eight people. 9 10 Lima Two this is Alpha, we have 6 bodies here, six bodies 11 here with I/A. 12 13 (Unclear) ... the CMU do so. 14 15 Okay, repeat that Lima One. 16 17 If you can relieve some members from Alpha if they're not 18 busy, they don't need all eight down there, they can 19 attend the TOC and supplement CMU when they arrive if 20 they're not already there. 21 22 I need to clear this with Alpha. 23 24 You want them suited up then? 25

46
  1  No the supplement will be in softac, softac.
  2  
  3  Alpha to Lima Two.  This is Alpha we have six bodies
  4  repeat six bodies, we can definitely let at least two go
  5  with a caged van if you want that?
  6  
  7  Yeah, ten four.
  8  
  9  If so you'll be in softac and supplement CMU as an arrest
 10  team.
 11  
 12  Okay, I'm sending two one district ERT teams that are
 13  going across to TAC to assist as an arrest squad.
 14  
 15  CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
 16                 Q:   And that communication at 21:54 is --
 17  did you hear that communication?
 18                 A:   I don't recall it.
 19                 Q:   And as a result of that
 20  communication, what is your understanding, was going to
 21  happen at 21:54?
 22                 A:   They were moving some of the
 23  uniformed -- some of the officers -- what they're
 24  referring to here as soft tact, is they would be in grey
 25  uniforms without their protective crowd management gear

47
  1  on.  
  2                 So it would be same uniform as they had on
  3  normal checkpoint duty.
  4                 Q:   And then I'm going to play two (2)
  5  transmissions, Commissioner, one at 21:52 and one at
  6  21:53.
  7  
  8            (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW)
  9  
 10  September 6, 1995
 11  21:52
 12  
 13  Track # 2152
 14  
 15  Lima One, Delta.
 16  
 17  Go ahead
 18  
 19  We've got a problem here, we need some uniforms right at
 20  21 keeping them out of here.
 21  
 22  Delta, ten four.  I'll send you six right now.
 23  
 24  Send them up right at 21 and just don't let anybody down
 25  here.  They have I/A lighting us up.

1 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And what did you understand -- 3 firstly, did you hear this transmission? 4 A: No. But what's happening is there's 5 -- just to explain what they're talking about when they 6 say lighting us up, it's common practice that very bright 7 spotlights are used and put into the area where the 8 officers are and -- and in particular, into their eyes, 9 if possible, to make it difficult for them to see what's 10 going on. 11 Q: Okay. 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 14 15 September 6, 1995 16 21:53 17 18 Track # 2153 19 20 Lima Two, Delta we've got three vehicles northbound 21 towards the base. 22 23 Ten four Delta. 24 25 Is this from the army camp Delta, or on the road?

1 On the army ... army base road, army base road. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And did you hear that transmission? 5 A: No, sir. 6 Q: Then with respect to -- at 22:02 7 there's a transmission. 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 10 11 September 6, 1995 12 22:02 13 14 Track # 2202 15 16 Lima two this is Alpha. 17 18 Go ahead Alpha. 19 20 For your info we turned another pick-up truck around 21 again. Turned another pick-up truck around again 22 (unclear) try and just blocked off ... 23 24 Ten four. 25

1 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And Alpha -- firstly did you hear 3 this transmission? 4 A: No, sir. 5 Q: And Alpha, at this point, was located 6 near the MNR parking lot? 7 A: I believe so. 8 Q: Then at 22:06. 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 11 12 September 6, 1995 13 22:06 14 15 Track # 2206 16 17 Oscar One from Lima Two 18 19 Lima Two Oscar One 20 21 Are you still in position Oscar One? 22 23 10-4 still in position. Go ahead 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:

1 Q: And that's a communication between 2 Oscar 1, which was the observation team? 3 A: Yes, it was. 4 Q: The ERT observation team? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: And what is your understanding as to 7 -- firstly, did you hear this transmission? 8 A: I don't recall hearing it. 9 Q: And what's your understanding as to 10 what is happening at -- as a result of this transmission? 11 A: It -- it's difficult for me to tell 12 what -- what they're up to. I just can't hear it very 13 clear, I'm sorry. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And at 22:07. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 20 21 September 6, 1995 22 22:07 23 24 Track # 2207(a) 25

52
  1  Oscar, Oscar One, Lima Two.
  2  
  3  Go ahead Lima Two.
  4  
  5  Oscar One, Lima Two, you want to fall back to the TAC,
  6  fall back?
  7  
  8  10-4
  9  
 10  CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:   
 11                 Q:   And at -- did you -- were you able to
 12  hear that --
 13                 A:   Yes, the --
 14                 Q:   -- Deputy Carson?
 15                 A:   The Oscar team was directed to return
 16  to the TOC site.
 17                 Q:   And did you direct the Oscar team to
 18  return to the TOC site?
 19                 A:   No, I did not.
 20                 Q:   And who would have made that
 21  decision?
 22                 A:   Well, what would happen in -- in a
 23  case like that is between the ERT leaders and the TRU
 24  team leaders, they would have worked out the deployment
 25  of personnel, so that the TRU people would have relieved

1 the ERT officers who were on observation. 2 So, it -- it's a process that they will go 3 through at the supervisory level, particularly the 4 sergeants or the staff sergeant, to ensure that the TRU 5 team know, and -- and it's key that they know where the 6 observation teams are, because as they move into 7 position, you don't want them stumbling over each other, 8 or mistaking them for -- for something else. 9 So, it's -- it's a -- that's a typical 10 hand off that takes place in any operation where ERT 11 teams are providing containment, and then TRU team would 12 relieve them. 13 Q: Okay. And then at 22:07 there's 14 another transmission. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 17 18 September 6, 1995 19 22:07 20 21 Track # 2207(b) 22 23 Lima Two Delta. 24 25 Lima One Delta

1 Lima Two Delta 2 3 Lima Two to Delta 4 5 Lima Two this is Delta 6 7 There's two more vehicles headed north loaded with 8 people. 9 10 Is this from where you are? 11 12 I/A 13 14 I/A 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: That second transmission was a 18 different transmission. Did you hear this transmission? 19 The first one with respect to vehicle -- the traffic 20 going north? 21 A: I -- I don't recall it personally. 22 Q: And when did you make the decision to 23 send the CMU down East Parkway Drive? 24 A: Well technically that decision was 25 made

1 -- we were going to form up the crowd management team 2 when I was back at the command post in my discussion with 3 Dale Linton that we're going to -- to do that, given the 4 circumstances, as we understood them at that time. 5 As I went forward -- I mean, as I 6 indicated in one of my notes, that if they're sitting 7 around having a wiener roast, obviously we're not going 8 to do anything. But it was clear, as I got forward, 9 there was a lot of activity going on down there. 10 And the information continued to support 11 that -- the -- the information from the observer teams 12 was that there was a number of people moving around, and 13 -- and that actually it -- it was not lessening at all. 14 So, you know, quite frankly it was just a 15 matter of continuing the decision as opposed to making a 16 new decision, I would suggest, and verifying the 17 information as we understood it earlier. 18 Q: And at this point in time, at 22:07, 19 had you heard back from the TRU team? What information 20 had you received from the TRU team? 21 A: I can't tell you off the top of my 22 head what I heard back from TRU team but in -- I know I 23 had requested information on -- on the sight lines from 24 the kiosk, and there was a number of transmissions to the 25 TRU team TOC vehicle.

1 But I -- I can't tell you specifically 2 which piece of information I had at that given time. But 3 -- but clearly I was satisfied that the activity was 4 still present in that parking lot area between the 5 information received from the OSCAR teams, and the other 6 information provided to me by the ERT supervisors and the 7 TRU team leader. 8 Q: And -- 9 So it's really not any one particular 10 fact. I mean it's -- it's a culmination of a number of 11 issues that are happening all at the same time. 12 Q: And -- and can you tell us what the 13 key factors were with respect that -- you said there's a 14 -- a series of factors, events that were happening, well, 15 what were those events? 16 A: Well, you have now people out on the 17 roadway, there had been a vehicle damaged earlier. You 18 have a number of them around those cottages adjacent to 19 the Park. 20 We're getting information from the OSCAR 21 team that there has been activity in the area of the -- 22 the beach, coming up the beach, that the individuals had 23 bats or bat-like objects and there was concern about the 24 cottages in the area that they would be broken into. 25 We certainly had a lot of information that

1 continued to come our way from the occupiers themselves 2 that the cottages were next. 3 There was the bus and the car roaring 4 around and, in fact, there was some information here that 5 vehicular traffic was now into the parking lot area, so 6 it -- it's not any one (1) thing, it's a whole host of 7 things together. 8 Q: And anything else? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Not off the top of my head as I'm 13 sitting here, I'm sorry. 14 Q: And, we heard the last day, a 15 transmission with -- that you were part of with respect 16 to Mr. -- Sergeant Wright where he asked for information 17 to be advised if the bus or the dump truck or vehicles 18 went out into the parking lot, do you recall that? 19 A: I believe there was something to that 20 effect, yes. 21 Q: And, he asked to be advised as soon 22 as -- it was the sit rep. report reference in the 23 telephone call and asked to be advised immediately if the 24 bus or the, I believe it's the dump truck, went out into 25 the parking lot.

1 A: Right. 2 Q: And, had you been given any 3 information as of this time at 22:07 or shortly after ten 4 o'clock on September 6th, whether or not the school bus 5 or the dump truck had gone out into the parking lot? 6 A: No. I -- I -- I don't -- I don't 7 recall and I don't believe the bus or the school bus had 8 actually went into the parking lot at that point in time. 9 I was of the impression there were vehicles out in the 10 parking lot, but I was not -- not of the impression that 11 it was the bus or the -- the -- the dump truck. 12 And, I guess, to your last point the 13 other issue with the school bus is, every time the school 14 bus has been brought into play here, there has been -- 15 been clearly some issues and I refer back to the -- the 16 school bus became a key factor in -- as the weapon of 17 choice in the drill hall incident. 18 So, once that was brought down there, 19 there was -- and it was being driven in the parking lot - 20 - Provincial Park, there was certainly some concern what 21 the intent was to do with it. 22 Q: Okay. And, at 22:11, you spoke to - 23 - you called the Command Post and -- in the -- the two 24 (2) volumes that are up on the -- yes? It's volume 25 number 2 and Tab 54 for My Friends. It's a conversation

1 at 22:11 on September 6th. It's conversation number 56 2 on the Carson Master Complete Final without Elapsed Time 3 list. 4 5 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 6 7 John CARSON and Dale LINTON 8 9 September 6, 1995 10 TIME: 22:11:47 hours 11 Track 1.wav 12 13 PETERMAN: Command post, PETERMAN. 14 CARSON: Hi, Rose, it's John CARSON here ah is Dale 15 there please? 16 PETERMAN: Ah yeah hold on. 17 CARSON: Or Mark WRIGHT. 18 LINTON: Yes John. 19 CARSON: Hi Dale. 20 LINTON: Hello...hello. 21 CARSON: Can you hear me Dale? 22 LINTON: Just barely, go ahead. 23 CARSON: Okay, do do we do we know who lives in 24 that that house at the end? 25 LINTON: No we'll find out.

1 CARSON: Ah if at all possible we could call there 2 and see if anybody is there...can you hear me? 3 LINTON: Yeah. 4 CARSON: Okay for two reasons, a) to get some 5 information and b) to tell them to stay 6 away from the Park side of that (I/A) (static). 7 LINTON: Okay. 8 CARSON: Okay. 9 LINTON: Yeah. 10 CARSON: And if you can confirm that can you call 11 me back... 12 LINTON: Yeah. 13 CARSON: On my cell phone? 14 LINTON: Yeah. 15 CARSON: Okay. 16 LINTON: Yeah. 17 CARSON: Okay thanks. 18 LINTON: Bye. 19 Background radio transmissions...I got four, four units 20 21 End of conversation. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: And the -- at Tab 54 at the top of 25 page 345, the transcript indicates that you say you:

1 "Okay, for two (2) reasons, (a) to get 2 some information and (b) to tell them 3 to stay away from the park side of 4 that." 5 And then it was inaudible and there was 6 static. 7 Did you hear that on that tape? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 Q: And what were you -- what was the 10 purpose of this call to Inspector Linton at this point in 11 time at 22:11 on September the 6th? 12 A: We were trying to identify if there 13 were occupants in the house, if they could provide us 14 with any information they may have from what they could 15 see from their vantage point, and also to stay away from 16 the side of the house that faced the sandy parking lot. 17 Q: And the house that you're referring 18 to is which house? 19 A: It's the first house that borders 20 against the property of the sandy parking lot. 21 Q: And immediately to the west of the 22 sandy parking lot? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then did you hear back from 25 Inspector Linton, do you recall?

1 A: I'm not sure if he called me back, 2 but at some point in time I was of the impression the 3 house was vacant or there was no one home. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: I'm not sure how I achieved that 6 information. 7 Q: And perhaps you could point out on 8 what is Exhibit 437 the location of the house that you 9 are concerned about? 10 A: This one here. 11 Q: And perhaps we could mark that with a 12 Number 1? And then at eleven (11) -- at 22:34 you had a 13 conversation with Mark Wright and it appears at Tab 55 of 14 the book of calls and it's call number 57. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 17 18 John CARSON and Mark WRIGHT 19 20 September 6, 1995 21 TIME: 22:34:54 hours 22 Track 1.wav 23 (Dialling of phone...we are unable to complete your call 24 as dialled...) 25 PETERMAN: Command Post, PETERMAN.

1 CARSON: Yeah this is Inspector CARSON here 2 (static) (I/A) please. 3 PETERMAN: Ah I can hardly read you, who are you 4 asking... 5 CARSON: It's Inspector CARSON here, is Mark WRIGHT 6 there? 7 PETERMAN: Yeah hold on. 8 WRIGHT: Yeah John. 9 CARSON: Yeah is ah did we hear back ah on who 10 lives in that house on the corner or if they're if 11 they had a phone number in there? 12 WRIGHT: Yeah I think ah Inspector LINTON was 13 talking to the guy in the house... 14 CARSON: Yeah. 15 (background talking...no I found out who is he) 16 WRIGHT: No he found out who he is but we have... 17 (background...I got his name but he's not home) 18 WRIGHT: We found out who he is but he's not home. 19 CARSON: Okay so there's nobody home...are you sure 20 of that? 21 WRIGHT: Yeah and... 22 (I/A background talking) 23 WRIGHT: We got his...are you still there John? 24 CARSON: Yeah yeah. 25 WRIGHT: Yeah we got his name, his number and he's

1 not there. 2 CARSON: Okay okay okay. 3 WRIGHT: Okay. 4 CARSON: Okay so okay that's good, thanks. 5 WRIGHT: Okay hang in there brother. 6 CARSON: Okay thank you. 7 WRIGHT: Okay bye. 8 CARSON: See you. 9 10 End of conversation. 11 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The address, I 13 believe, Commissioner, of that first cottage is 6848 East 14 Parkway Drive, just simply for the record. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: And with respect to the cottages 18 along in this area, other than the first cottage, at this 19 point in time now at 10:30 on -- approximately on 20 September the 6th, what if anything, had you -- what 21 instructions, if any, had you given with respect to the 22 other cottages? 23 A: Well, it was my understanding that 24 the cottages were going to be contacted and people 25 advised to stay in their homes. It was a matter of just

1 -- it wasn't an evacuation as opposed to just telling 2 them to stay put. 3 Q: And who was -- who was to do that? 4 A: Well, that would have been handled by 5 the command post from Inspector Linton's position. 6 Q: So, do you know if that -- do you 7 know if that was done on the... 8 A: I don't know how much of it gone 9 done. I -- I -- it's my assumption that it got started 10 but didn't get finished. 11 Q: So that's your assumption but you 12 don't know -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- if one (1) or two (2) or anybody 15 was spoken to? 16 A: I -- I don't know for sure exactly 17 how that worked out. 18 Q: And did you give that instruction to 19 Inspector Linton to notify the people in the cottages? 20 A: I'm not sure if I gave that direction 21 specifically or it was something we had discussed and 22 just agreed that he would take care of that. 23 But in -- in my mind there was certainly 24 an understanding that was going to be addressed. And -- 25 Q: And there's a note although we don't

1 have a telephone call of it in the -- at 22:17 in the 2 scribe note Exhibit -- 3 A: Could I -- could I just take you back 4 to -- to your earlier question for a moment -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: -- in regards to the -- the factors. 7 The one factor I -- I neglected to -- to discuss was the 8 whole issue of the risk to these cottages and the 9 ramifications of the risk to these cottages. 10 And in particular relating to Mark 11 Wright's meeting with the people at the TOC site earlier 12 in the afternoon and the -- the sense that he received 13 from those people and that they were actually going to 14 march on the Park at that point in time that he had 15 talked them out of that. 16 And it was certainly an issue for me that 17 we understand that very clearly that if -- if any of 18 these cottages were broken into or damaged, that this 19 issue was going to be most difficult to try and address. 20 So I -- I'm sorry I just neglected to add that factor. 21 Q: And why would it be more difficult to 22 address? 23 A: Because quite frankly I don't think I 24 could have imposed any control on the group of people 25 that Mark Wright had met with. They were determined and

1 I think it was his persuasion that convinced them to let 2 the police work with this to -- we're making sure we have 3 the adequate resources to address it. 4 And just stay calm here and -- and he 5 tried to reduce the tension. And I think if -- if the 6 cottages were broken into or damaged in any way, that our 7 credibility would have been absolutely lost and that the 8 cottagers would have taken it into their own hands quite 9 frankly. I think their confidence level was on edge. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And Commissioner, 11 perhaps it would be a good time for the morning break. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 13 very much. We'll take a morning break. 14 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 15 for fifteen (15) minutes. 16 17 --- Upon recessing at 11:47 a.m. 18 --- Upon resuming at 12:06 p.m. 19 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 21 resumed. Please be seated. 22 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Commissioner, just 23 to take a moment. In my enthusiasm to make my point as 24 effectively as I could, I -- I did something quite 25 unforgivable and which I do regret and I want to

1 apologize to Mr. Millar. 2 I have just the highest regard for his 3 ability as counsel and I do know he's very well prepared 4 and that he's worked harder than -- than any of the rest 5 of us to be ready. That wasn't the point I was trying to 6 make. It was really a rhetorical reference and I -- I 7 regret that. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much. 10 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Any my apologies to 11 Mr. Millar for that. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, Mr. Horton. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: Now, Commissioner and Deputy Carson 16 when -- if I could take you to Exhibit 426, which is the 17 scribed notes. And you have your own copy of those 18 scribed notes. It's page 79 at 22:17 hours and there's a 19 reference: 20 "John Carson called Dale Linton 21 regarding evacuation." 22 And I don't know and perhaps you can tell 23 us what you remember about that conversation. We don't 24 have a transcript of it unless it is referring to the 25 conversation that we played at 22:11.

1 A: I -- I suspect it is, sir, because 2 the next phone call is Linton calling Jago (phonetic) 3 residence regarding identifying cottagers. So, he's -- 4 he's made an effort shortly thereafter to do that. So, I 5 suspect that is what that is about. 6 Q: And, do you know where the Jago 7 college -- cottage is or was? 8 A: It's -- it's down near the end. It 9 isn't right at the end, but it's -- it's in close 10 proximity to the end of the... 11 Q: And, the Richardson's? 12 A: Richardson, I don't think lived on 13 Parkway at that time, but I think Richardson was someone 14 who knew most of the people in that area. 15 Q: And then, there's an entrance 22:26 16 hours: 17 "Dale Linton spoke to Judy resident -- 18 Richardson at residence; will call 19 back." 20 Then, 22:28 hours: 21 "Bill Dennis called back 22 Hannahson(phonetic) with names." 23 And, who is, "Hannahson?" 24 A: I was under the impression 25 "Hannahson" was the name of the people in the last

1 cottage. 2 Q: That was my impression, too. The 3 first cottage that -- beside the -- 4 A: Yeah. Yes, yes. 5 Q: -- the sandy parking lot. And then, 6 do you have any information today as to whether or not 7 Mr. Dennis spoke to the Hannahsons? 8 A: I -- I'm not sure. I -- I don't 9 know. 10 Q: Because shortly thereafter there's a 11 -- your call with Mark Wright where Mr. Wright -- 12 Sergeant Wright said there was no one home? 13 A: Right. Now, see, what may have -- 14 may have happened, and this is speculation on my part at 15 best, is that they may have determined information as to 16 where to get a hold of Hannahson even though they weren't 17 there. They may have been elsewhere, but they were able 18 to contact them at, but that's just a guess. 19 Q: Because there's a reference at 22:31 20 in the logger tape -- I mean in the scribe notes: 21 "Dale Linton attempted to call 22 Hannahson residence, no answer." 23 A: Right. 24 Q: And then, it was shortly thereafter 25 that you spoke to Sergeant Wright?

1 A: Correct. 2 Q: Then, there's a note at 22:28 hours: 3 "Bill Dennis advised one (1) arrest has 4 been made." 5 That would be at twenty-eight (28) minutes 6 after 10:00 on September 6th and had any arrests been 7 made at this point in time, Deputy Carson? 8 A: I'm not aware of an arrest at this 9 point. 10 Q: And the... 11 A: I'm not sure where -- where Bill 12 Dennis would have received that information because at 13 this point the crowd management team had -- had not even 14 gone down the road to the parking lot yet. 15 Q: Okay. And at 22:13, there's a 16 transmission. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 19 20 September 6, 1995 21 22:13 22 23 Track # 2213 24 25 All units from Lima Two, all units from Lima Two, cut

1 your radio talk to a minimum, keep your radio talk to a 2 minimum. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And, what was your understanding as 6 to why LIMA 2 was broadcasting this transmission at 7 thirteen (13) minutes after 10:00? 8 A: About keeping talk to a minimum? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Well, as -- as you heard with that 11 trans -- the transmission immediately prior to his 12 transmission, the transmission became cut out and what's 13 likely happening is two (2) officers in close proximity 14 are keying the microphone at the same time which destroys 15 the ability of -- of the one radio to get through. 16 So, what he's saying is basically, unless 17 it's absolutely urgent, you don't talk so that when 18 someone needs the air, it's -- it's available for a 19 transmission. 20 So, that's the difficulty when you have 21 that many radios working in such close proximity of each 22 other. 23 Q: And then at 22:14: 24 25 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW)

1 2 September 6, 1995 3 22:14 4 5 Track # 2214 6 7 TAC from CMU. 8 9 TAC from CMU. 10 11 Go ahead CMU I'm Lima Two. 12 13 Lima two from CMU I/A. 14 15 Coming in loud and clear. 16 17 I/A. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And did you recall hearing this 21 transmission at -- on September the 6th? 22 A: No, sir. 23 Q: And it appears to be a radio check by 24 the CMU? 25 A: That would make sense, yes.

1 Q: And at this point in time, at 2 approximately -- 3 A: And I guess I just need to point out 4 that, like, I don't recall today hearing it. That 5 doesn't mean I didn't hear it. Like I may have been in a 6 position to hear many of those transmissions, but -- but 7 from my recall today, I just, you know, can't say that I 8 in fact heard it or not. 9 Q: Okay. And what were your -- did you 10 give instructions to Staff Sergeant Lacroix in the -- at 11 the MNR parking lot when the CMU was being formed up? 12 Did you discuss with him what he was to 13 do, what you wanted him to do? 14 A: I had a discussion with Lacroix back 15 at the command post in Forest, before I went forward when 16 the team was being ordered to the MNR parking lot for 17 assembly. 18 He was putting his protective gear on at 19 the outside, back end of the command post trailer and 20 while he was putting his gear on, we had a discussion 21 about what the expectations were. 22 And it was very clear to him that his 23 instructions were to take the crowd management team, move 24 into the sandy parking lot and not into the Park, that 25 his task was simply to remove the people with the

1 baseball bats and the subject of all the other issues we 2 had, off the sandy parking lot back to the fence, but 3 they were -- it was clear and I think you'll hear 4 evidence from now Inspector Lacroix that the direction 5 was absolutely clear, he was not to go into the Park. 6 Q: And were there instructions to staff 7 -- then Staff Sergeant Lacroix to establish a checkpoint 8 at or near the sandy parking lot? 9 A: Well that was -- part of the 10 discussion was, hopefully if we clear the parking lot and 11 if the occupiers stay in the parking lot, then we could 12 re-establish the checkpoint on Parkway Road that was 13 closer to the corner than where the TOC site was located? 14 Q: And was that one of the things you 15 wanted him to do? 16 A: Eventually, the first thing was to 17 get the Park clear -- or the parking lot, I'm sorry. 18 Q: All right. And at quarter after -- 19 approximately quarter after 10:00 on September the 6th, 20 the -- had you heard back from the TRU team with respect 21 -- or TRU teams with respect to the sandy parking lot and 22 the kiosk? 23 A: Well there was information coming 24 back. Now, again you need to understand here, in regards 25 to the TRU team operations, it's on a separate radio

1 frequency, totally separate from all other officers. 2 So the command post would not hear it; the 3 only people who would hear it would be TRU team officers 4 and the TOC van for the TRU people. So, the information 5 would be coming back directly to Constable Zupansic 6 (phonetic) who was in the truck and to Staff Sergeant 7 Skinner who was in the truck monitoring the 8 communications. 9 I found myself at the -- at the TRU team 10 truck with Staff Sergeant Skinner and he would be 11 providing the information as he was receiving it. 12 Q: And, could you hear the radio 13 transmissions from the TRU team back to the truck? 14 A: That -- that particular vehicle is 15 equipped with both radio systems for the TRU team 16 transmissions, which is broadcast in a speaker in the 17 truck. So it is audible in the truck, so I would have 18 been able to hear that and also it is equipped with the 19 same radio as the ERT personnel and it was on speaker and 20 I would have been able to hear the transmissions from the 21 ERT officers as well. 22 Q: And at this point in time, do you 23 recall having heard back from TRU as to the kiosk or what 24 was going on in the sandy parking lot? 25 A: I remember being satisfied that there

1 was no issue around sight lines from the kiosk and 2 whether Skinner told me that directly or it was 3 transmissions I overhead, I quite frankly can't tell you 4 which it was, but I remember being satisfied about that 5 and I was certainly of the impression that there was a 6 significant amount of activity occurring in the sandy 7 parking lot, even after the TRU team personnel were in 8 position. 9 Q: And the TRU TOC team -- TOC truck had 10 the capability, as I understand it, to record the 11 communications between the TRU team and the TRU Tactical 12 Operations Centre? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And, we don't have any of the 15 communications between the TRU teams that were down East 16 Parkway Drive and the TRU team Tactical Operations 17 Centre? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: And why? 20 A: Well, I -- I -- when I was in the 21 truck and I forget the reason why, but the truck stalled. 22 The truck -- the communications system had been running 23 in the back of the vehicle and in order to activate the 24 recording equipment for the TRU team equipment, it 25 requires the operator, as in most normal tape recording-

1 type equipment, where you have to press a "Play" and a 2 "Record" button together in order to activate the record 3 function and it was set to record and was actually 4 performing that function. 5 The truck stalled, then when the -- Staff 6 Sergeant Skinner restarted the truck, as -- as you know, 7 the vehicle goes through the recycling process as -- as 8 you start it up and any interior lights go out 9 momentarily while you start your vehicle. 10 Well, unbeknownst to the operator, the -- 11 when the recorder came back up on power, it came back up 12 on, "Play" and as I understand it, the wheels on the tape 13 were rolling as though it was operating normally, but in 14 fact, he would have had to re-enter the record button; it 15 was only playing, it was not recording. So, it was, for 16 lack of a better term, a finger problem around the record 17 position on the tape recorder when the truck was 18 restarted. 19 Q: And, when did you learn of this 20 explanation, Deputy Carson? 21 A: Oh, not until some time later. We -- 22 we were of the assumption that it had all been recorded. 23 Q: Then, if I could take you to a 24 transmission at 22:19. 25

1 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 2 3 September 6, 1995 4 22:19 5 6 Track # 2219 7 8 CMU explanation, threats 9 10 CMU we're going to move down. We're going to move 11 forward. 12 13 Get through here and get out of the way of these trucks 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR 16 Q: At 22:19 this transmission, do you 17 recognize the name -- the person who's speaking? 18 A: It's Lacroix who's giving the 19 commands. 20 Q: And what do you understand were the 21 commands that he gave? 22 A: Oh, it sounds like he's forming the 23 team up, just moving them out past the trucks in the 24 parking lot still. 25 Q: And box formation, what does that

1 refer to? 2 A: That's -- that's the formation he 3 wants them to -- to take as they move up the road. It's 4 just the way they line the officers up in -- in a square. 5 Q: And did you observe the CMU formed up 6 into the box formation in the MNR parking lot? 7 A: They -- they were lined up in columns 8 in the parking lot facing out towards Parkway Drive and 9 as they started to move, I went into the TRU team truck 10 with Staff Sergeant Skinner where I stayed for the 11 duration. 12 And the crowd management team would have 13 moved past the vehicle where I was and I watched them 14 leave. So as -- as this is taking place I'm watching 15 this from the front seat of the TRU team truck. 16 Q: And at this point in time, had you 17 made a decision to proceed with the CMU going to -- to 18 continue sending the CMU down East Parkway Drive? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the next transmission that we 21 have is at 22:22. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 24 25 September 6, 1995

1 22:22 2 3 Track # 2222 4 5 Prisoner van move up. Lights out. 6 7 I/A 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And did you hear that " prisoner van 11 moving up, lights out"? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: And what did that signify to you? 14 A: Well they just wanted the vehicle 15 brought up without any lights on it. They didn't want to 16 light up the team obviously. 17 Q: And at 22:24. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 20 21 September 6, 1995 22 23 22:24 24 25 Track # 2224(a)

1 Where's that prison van? 2 3 Coming up I/A now 4 5 The second prisoner van is just leaving the TOC. 6 7 It's coming. 8 9 ... the wrong way. Denny behind me. 10 11 Back her up. Denny 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And were there two (2) prisoner vans, 15 Deputy Carson that you recall? 16 A: I'm pretty sure there were two (2) 17 prisoner vans available but I'm not sure if they brought 18 both vans up or not. 19 Q: Then another transmission at 22:24. 20 21 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 22 23 September 6, 1995 24 22:24 25

1 Track # 2224(b) 2 3 Mike One to CMU. 4 5 TRU Team Tango, CMU Tango, test. 6 7 That's 10-2. 8 9 Ok, try mine now. Kent you read me? 10 11 Can you read me at all? 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And can you tell us what's happening 15 there, what's your understanding? 16 A: Sounds like there some radio checks 17 going on. 18 Q: Then at 22:27. 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 21 22 September 6, 1995 23 22:27 24 25 Track # 2227

1 Lima One from CMU. We heard a tower call from Chatham, a 2 single I/A tower call. Somebody in the perimetre may 3 have a repeater on. Something's going on here. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, what I'm 5 going to now play is the -- it's a forty (40) minute 6 segment of the march down the road and there's a 7 transcript that we provided you and the Deputy Carson and 8 I've provided it to My Friends some time ago in a laconic 9 form. 10 It's -- this transcript runs from 22:27 11 down to 23:09 and I'm going to play it and -- in it's 12 entirety with one (1) or two (2) stops during the course 13 of the conversation. 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED- TRANSCRIPT FOLLOWS) 16 17 CHATHAM LOGGER TAPE 0146-TRACK 12 18 "TAC" CHANNEL FOR 06 SEPTEMBER 1995 19 10:27 P.M.-11:10 P.M. 20 (Current Time-10:27) 21 LACROIX: CMU advance slow pace should be tenth 22 (10th) of a k. 23 LACROIX: TOC to CMU we're advancing to within ah 24 three- hundred (300). 25 HEBBLETHWAITE: Wade do you want to hold on for a minute.

1 LACROIX: Okay halt. 2 HEBBLETHWAITE: I just got an idea. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: Do you recognize the voices on the 6 transmission at this point in time? 7 A: I'm afraid I don't. 8 Q: I'm instructed that one is Wade 9 Lacroix and the other is Hepple -- Mr. Hebblethwaite. 10 A: It could be. Hebblethwaite is a 11 sergeant who -- who would be one of the supervisors on 12 that team and Lacroix is the commander of the team. 13 But I suspect as we move in here the 14 voices will be more clear for identification purposes. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 17 18 LACROIX: Okay ah (I/A)...good news they've got 19 rocks and sticks piled up and we all know 20 we can beat that (I/A)...rocks and sticks 21 that's in our Bailiwick. All we have to 22 worry about is little brown stocks and 23 black barrels. Okay we're going to 24 advancing in a moment. Advance. 25 OFFICER: (I/A)...boys.

1 LACROIX: Stay in our pairs whatever you do do not 2 leave your buddy. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And, Deputy Carson, what is your 6 understanding as to what is happening at this point in 7 time? 8 A: They're just moving down the road at 9 this point and approaching the corner, but still on 10 Parkway Drive and obviously they're operating in pairs 11 together and there's just some caution here about making 12 sure they keep an eye on one another. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 15 16 ALPHA: Lima two this is Alpha. Checkpoint the 17 Uniform members have arrived what do what 18 what do you want to do with the two ERT. 19 LIMA 2: Ten-three (10-3) Alpha. 20 LACROIX: Everybody stay off the air unless 21 somebody's hurt up or down or you hear 22 anything any kind of noise...(I/A) strange 23 noise... 24 LACROIX: TOC CMU how do you read. 25 LIMA 2: CMU Lima 2. I'm reading you.

1 LACROIX: Ten-four (10-4). 2 MALE: (I/A) radio static. 3 MALE: (I/A) radio static. 4 OFFICER: (I/A)...I see some lights. 5 MALE: (I/A) radio static. 6 MALE: (/A) radio static...formation...(I/A). 7 SKINNER: CMU ah TAC 1 be advised ah you've been 8 spotted by their forward observers and 9 their forward observers are retreating. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: Can you identify who was the person 13 speaking at that point? 14 A: That was Staff Sergeant Skinner who 15 was sitting right beside me in the TRU team truck. 16 Q: And was there a transmission to the 17 TRU team truck at or about this time? 18 A: Information would have come over the 19 TRU team radio and this is being relayed over the ERT 20 team radio to the crowd management team. 21 Q: Now you say information would have 22 been; do you recall the information being transmitted? 23 A: Do I recall today hearing that? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: Not specifically.

1 Q: Pardon me? 2 A: Not specifically. But there were a 3 number of transmissions coming back with status of what 4 was happening as the team moved up the road. 5 Q: And can you tell us, today, what you 6 can recall of those transmissions before we proceed? Do 7 you have a recollection of what those transmission are? 8 A: Well there -- there was certainly 9 information that you're going to hear, very shortly, 10 about someone being spotted on a roadway with a stick. 11 At first it was thought to be a firearm. That 12 information clearly came over the TRU team radio, was 13 relayed to the crowd management team. 14 When that was confirmed by the TRU team 15 personnel, then the crowd management team was given the 16 approval to continue to move forward. And then there 17 will be transmissions coming back from the TRU team that 18 they had shot someone and that that person had ran back 19 into the Park. 20 Those -- those transmissions I'm certainly 21 well aware of. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 24 25 LACROIX: (I/A)...to the Centre Pole.

1 LACROIX: Everybody alert stay spread out. 2 LACROIX: Watch vehicle. 3 OFFICER: That's TRU in the vehicle. 4 LACROIX: Halt. 5 LACROIX: (I/A) dressing shields down. 6 LACROIX: TOC to CMU. 7 LACROIX: TOC to CMU. 8 SKINNER: CMU TAC 1 go ahead. 9 LACROIX: TAC 1 CMU two to three hundred (200-300) 10 metres out awaiting instructions. 11 SKINNER: Standby. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Now at this point in time, is the -- 15 we hear the communications between Sergeant Skinner and 16 Staff Sergeant Lacroix. Were the communications flowing 17 back between the TRU tactical operation centre and the 18 CMU? 19 A: I'm not sure if I understand how you 20 mean �- what's happening -- 21 Q: Yeah. Who's in charge of the 22 communications here? 23 A: Oh. Well Skinner is the relay 24 person. 25 Q: Yes.

1 A: In the back of the truck, the TRU 2 team truck is Constable Zupansic who is monitoring only 3 TRU team radio. But in the front of the vehicle Skinner 4 is monitoring both and he's the relay person between TRU 5 and ERT. 6 So as -- as TRU -- I'm sorry, as Skinner 7 provides the direction to ERT, it's on my direction. 8 Q: And ERT being in this case the CMU? 9 A: Yes. I -- I'm sorry, it might be a 10 bit confusing here. 11 Q: And they're now, at this point in the 12 transmission, which for the benefit of My Friends, is...I 13 haven't got the exact -- approximately 22:35 and the TRU 14 team -- the CMU indicates it's two (200) or three hundred 15 (300) metres out from the sandy parking lot? 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: And on Exhibit 320 -- 427, two (2) to 18 three hundred (300) metres is being indicated by a red 19 line. So it's beyond the -- part of the image that's on 20 the screen? 21 A: I -- I would beg to differ, sir. 22 Q: Okay. Where do you put the team at 23 this point? 24 A: Right in about this area here. From 25 the MNR parking lot to this corner is point seven (.7) of

1 one (1) kilometre, that's seven hundred (700) metres. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: So if they're reporting back that 4 they're approximately three hundred (300) metres out, 5 they're slightly over a halfway to the corner from the 6 sandy -- or from the MNR parking lot. 7 Q: So the -- so I misunderstood. The -- 8 the reference is two (2) to three hundred (300) metres 9 from the -- 10 A: Corner. 11 Q: -- from the corner, right. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: It's just -- this is important. It's 16 just -- checkpoint A-2 is -- you can see where it says, 17 "TRU TOC" on the left-hand side, Deputy Commissioner. 18 And this transmission: 19 "TAC 1 CMU two (2) to three hundred 20 (300) metre out awaiting instructions." 21 Where -- what was your understanding as to 22 where the CMU was located, at this point, on September 23 the 6th? 24 A: It would be in this general area 25 right about here.

1 Q: And two (2) to three hundred (300) 2 metres from... 3 A: From this corner. 4 Q: From the corner of East Parkway Drive 5 and Army Camp Road? 6 A: Right. And just -- if I can help you 7 a little, Lacroix is a former TRU team leader, has -- has 8 worked as a TRU team leader for many, many years and what 9 any TRU team leader will do or -- or part of the standard 10 operations is that before, for example, in a high-risk 11 warrant, they will go to a certain stage, report back and 12 ask for permission to -- to continue. So, he's at that 13 point now, basically waiting for, for lack of a better 14 term, the green light to take over and handle -- handle 15 it from there. 16 Q: Okay. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: We're trying to identify on Exhibit 21 437, the -- and we'll do it by 22:35 where Staff Sergeant 22 Lacroix says they're two (2) to three hundred (300) 23 metres out. 24 Then -- and a number "2" would have been 25 marked.

1 Then... 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED 4 BELOW) 5 6 LACROIX: (I/A)... from Sierra 1. 7 SKINNER: (I/A)...Sierra I what's going on with the 8 spotlights. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: And that is Sergeant Skinner; "CR1 12 what's going on with the spotlights"? 13 A: I think that the message you can 14 hear, I -- I suspect it might be Lacroix asking Skinner 15 what's going on with the spotlights to get the 16 information from the TRU team if they can see what's 17 happening up the road. 18 Q: And what spotlights are being 19 referred to? What was your understanding on September 20 6th? 21 A: Oh that the occupiers had a -- a 22 number of high powered spotlights they were shining 23 around the road. We had some information earlier that 24 the officers, the TRU officers when they were deploying 25 they were dropped off I believe from a suburban vehicle

1 had a number of spotlights shined on them as they worked 2 their way into the bush. 3 4 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED 5 BELOW) 6 7 HEBBLETHWAITE: TOC to CMU anything from Sierra 1 please. 8 HEBBLETHWAITE: TOC from CMU anything to report from 9 Sierra 1 in regards to what spotlights are 10 et cetera. 11 SKINNER: CMU from TAC 1 the spotlights are from the 12 occupants and they are roaming wildly. 13 HEBBLETHWAITE: Is Sierra 1 in position. 14 SKINNER: Standby. 15 SKINNER: CMU to TAC 1 advising Sierra 1 and Sierra 16 2 are not repeat not in position. 17 HEBBLETHWAITE: Copy copy. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: There's no reference on the tape, but 21 did you give an instruction Lacroix had -- Staff Sergeant 22 Lacroix had -- was told to standby, did you give an 23 instruction to proceed? 24 A: I don't believe so. 25

1 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED 2 BELOW) 3 4 LACROIX: Advance one (1) hydro pole. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: And did you take -- what do you take 8 from that command, "Advance one (1) hydro pole?" 9 A: They're just moving up the road a few 10 feet. 11 Q: Okay. 12 13 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 14 15 LACROIX: Hold spread out especially Contact Squad 16 from the other squad give yourself a 17 little bit of space. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And what is the reference to, contact 21 squad? 22 A: Well, that would be just relative to 23 their formation. The contact squad is the front -- the 24 officers who are leading the -- the front of the pack. 25 Q: Okay.

1 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED 2 BELOW) 3 4 SKINNER: CMU be advised ah party on the road may 5 have a weapon in his hand. 6 DEANE: Tex to CMU person down the road does have 7 a weapon does have a weapon. 8 LACROIX: Okay everybody move split right left split 9 right left split right left split right 10 left everybody split right left take a 11 knee take a knee. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Deputy Carson, the voice on the tape: 15 "CMU be advised a party on road may 16 have a weapon in his hand." 17 Do you recognize that -- did you recognize 18 that voice? 19 A: Yes, that's Skinner. 20 Q: And then, the next transmission was: 21 "Tex to CMU person down the road does 22 have a weapon; does have a weapon." 23 Who -- do you recognize that person? 24 A: Actually, I think it's still Skinner 25 on -- I think it should be, "TAC" to CMU.

1 Q: TAC to CM person? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And the name -- the person... 4 A: It -- it sounds to me like it's still 5 Skinner on the -- the microphone. 6 Q: So that the transcript that 7 identifies it is Mr. Deane, you think is wrong? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: And then the command: 10 "Everyone move, split right, left, 11 split right, left, split right, left, 12 right left. Everybody split right, 13 left, take a knee, take a knee." 14 And what is your understanding as to (a) 15 who gave that command and (b) what happened? 16 A: That was Lacroix, and he's getting 17 them off the roadway and -- and down into a defensive 18 position off the side. 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED 21 BELOW) 22 23 HEBBLETHWAITE: CMU to TOC we've read that and we've taken 24 cover. 25 HEBBLETHWAITE: TAC CMU confirm one man with weapon long

1 gun. 2 SKINNER: CMU from TAC 1 are you holding your 3 position. 4 HEBBLETHWAITE: TOC yeah ten-four (10-4) CMU is holding 5 position holding position. 6 SKINNER: Ten-four (10-4). 7 SKINNER: Subject is believed to be armed. 8 HEBBLETHWAITE: Copy that one (1) subject armed long gun. 9 SKINNER: Ten-four (10-4). 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: Do you recognize the name of the 13 person who's speaking with Sergeant Skinner at this 14 point? 15 A: Yes, it sounds like George 16 Hebblethwaite. 17 Q: Hebblethwaite? And what was his 18 position? 19 A: He was one of the sergeants on the 20 team out of the Mt. Forest area. 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 23 24 SKINNER: CMU ah TAC 1. 25 CMU TAC 1.

1 CMU TAC 1. 2 HEBBLETHWAITE: TAC 1 you're cutting yourself out at the 3 start go ahead CMU. 4 (Current Time - 10:14 p.m.) 5 SKINNER: CMU confirmed the subject has a stick that 6 has been confirmed by Romeo Stick. 7 HEBBLETHWAITE: Copy that CMU copy. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And 'Romeo' refers to what? 11 A: That's one of the TRU team -- teams 12 that are on observation. 13 Q: Okay. 14 15 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 16 17 HEBBLETHWAITE: TAC 1 DO WE HAVE Sierra In position CMU. 18 SKINNER: Standby. 19 HEBBLETHWAITE: TAC 1 do you have Sierra in position ah 20 key your mike for a second before talking 21 please in this TAC. 22 MALE: (I/A). 23 SKINNER: CMU standby (simultaneous talking). 24 SKINNER: CMU TAC 1 25 CMU TAC 1.

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1 HEBBLETHWAITE: Go ahead. 2 HEBBLETHWAITE: THE COURT: 1 go ahead. 3 SKINNER: Alpha and Sierra 2 can cover your 4 position. 5 SKINNER: CMU TAC 1 do you copy. 6 7 (Current Time - 10:48 p.m.) 8 HEBBLETHWAITE: Copy that copy that we're engaging. 9 LACROIX: (I/A) keep your distance spread out. 10 SKINNER: CMU if you read Sierra 1 is on your left 11 flank. 12 HEBBLETHWAITE: Contact squad back up contact squad back 13 up. 14 LACROIX: Right cover back up a bit. 15 HEBBLETHWAITE: Right cover back up right cover. 16 LACROIX: (I/A) back back CMU. 17 LACROIX: (I/A) TAC to CMU. 18 SKINNER: Go ahead CMU. 19 LACROIX: They're on the ah provincial provincial ah 20 property. 21 SKINNER: Ten-four (10-4) take up a defensive 22 position. 23 LACROIX: Contact squad ah back up slowly. 24 25 (Current Time - 10:54 p.m.)

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1 LACROIX: Shield chatter. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: What, at this point in time, Deputy 5 Carson, what is your understanding as to what had -- what 6 was happening? 7 A: It appears, at this point, that 8 they've moved the crowd management team into the Sandy 9 Parking Lot and that the occupiers have returned into the 10 Provincial Park itself. And there was instruction given 11 to the crowd management team that they take up a 12 defensive position. 13 Q: And who gave -- I see on the -- the 14 transcript it's Sergeant Skinner who is referred to as 15 communicating the order. Who gave that order? 16 A: I did. 17 Q: And what did you expect the CMU to do 18 when you gave the order to take up a defensive position? 19 A: Just take a position back in the 20 Sandy Parking Lot and to wait and see what -- what the 21 reaction to that was. 22 Q: And then, there's a reference from 23 Lacroix at approximately 10:54 p.m., "Shield chatter". 24 And what does that -- did that mean to you on the evening 25 of September the 6th?

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1 A: Shield chatter is the -- crowd 2 management teams carry a shield in their left hand and 3 arm, and the right hand will carry their baton. The 4 shield chatter is rapping the shield with a baton to make 5 noise. It's just a -- a, for lack of a better term, an 6 intimidation effect. 7 Q: And what is the -- what is the 8 purpose of the intimidation effect, as you put it? 9 A: To -- to keep whoever the crowd 10 management team is dealing with, just to provide some 11 psychological impact that they stay away from the crowd 12 management team. 13 Q: Okay. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED 18 BELOW) 19 20 (Current Time - 10:55 p.m.) 21 HEBBLETHWAITE: TOC from CMU be advised that we're at the 22 perimeter the ah badgers are within the 23 bounds of the park the badgers are in the 24 park over. 25 SKINNER: CMU to TAC 1 that's a ten-four (10-4) ah

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1 request you hold your position. 2 HEBBLETHWAITE: CMU copy that hold position. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: Deputy Carson, the -- the 6 transmission TOC from CMU: 7 "Be advised that we're at the 8 perimeter, the badgers are within the 9 bounds of the Park, the badgers are in 10 the Park, over." 11 Do you recognize who the speaker was? 12 A: I believe it was Lacroix. But it 13 indicates on the transcript as Hebblethwaite but it -- it 14 sounds actually more like Lacroix to me. 15 Q: And the reference "badgers are within 16 the bounds of the Park." what did you understand from 17 that on the evening of September 6th? 18 A: What that means is the occupiers who 19 were in the Sandy Parking Lot have now moved back into 20 the Provincial Park. The term 'badgers' is just a term 21 so they can be understood over the air as to who they're 22 dealing with, so we -- we know which individuals we're 23 talking about on the air. 24 Q: And at this point in time the -- at 25 10:48 on page 6 of the transcript, there's instructions

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1 for the crowd management unit to take up a defensive 2 position, and there's an order from Staff Sergeant 3 Lacroix "Contact squad backup slowly." 4 Then at 10:54 there's an order "Shield 5 chatter" and then at 10:55 the advice that "the badgers 6 are within the bounds of the Park." 7 What is your understanding as to what 8 happened, at this point in time, between the time the 9 crowd management unit was instructed to take a defensive 10 position, and the communication that "The badgers are 11 within the bounds of the Park"? 12 A: Which took place in between? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Not much of anything that the crowd 15 management team is basically static and the occupiers are 16 in the Park and the officers are out in the Sandy Parking 17 Lot. 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 20 21 SKINNER: CMU TAC 1 are you in a position of cover. 22 HEBBLETHWAITE: Negative... (I/A) 23 SKINNER: TAC 1 ten-nine (10-9). 24 HEBBLETHWAITE: Negative right now we're out in the open 25 but we can take cover go ahead.

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1 TAC 1: CMU TAC 1 take cover and mai