1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 19th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )    (np)
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )    (np)
  5  Katherine Hensel  )    (np)
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein )  (np)      The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )   (np)     George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    )            Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena  (Army Camp)
 18  William Henderson )   (np)       Kettle Point & Stony
 19  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 20  Colleen Johnson  )
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )              Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Susan Freeborn   )   (np)
 25  Michelle Pong    )   (np)

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )              Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )    (np)
  8  
  9  Ian Smith        )   (np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )
 11  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 12  Jacqueline Horvat )
 13  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 14  Trevor Hinnegan     ) 
 15  
 16  Mark Sandler       )            Ontario Provincial 
 17  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 18  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 19  
 20  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 21  Karen Jones      )   (np)       Police Association &
 22  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 23  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
 24  Annie Leeks      )   (np)
 25  Jennifer Gleitman )

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )              Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  Clem Nabigon     )   (np)
  7  Adriel Weaver     )   (np)       Student-at-Law
  8  
  9  Al J.C. O'Marra  )   (np)       Office of the Chief
 10  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 11  
 12  William Horton   )              Chiefs of Ontario
 13  Matthew Horner   )
 14  Kathleen Lickers )   (np)
 15  
 16  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 17  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 18  Megan Mackey     )
 19  Erin Tully       )   (np)
 20  
 21  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 22  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 23  Melissa Panjer   )
 24  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 7 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 219 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-434 Document number 1009045. Press 4 release Sept 06/95, 1:46 p.m. 10 5 P-435 Document number 1009043. OPP 6 press release Sept 06/95, 11:06 a.m. 11 7 P-436 Inquiry Document 1011798. Sept 06/95, 8 16:07 Fax from J.F. Carson, Acting 9 Superintendent Incident Commander to 10 Mr. Tim McCabe, Ministry of the Attorney 11 General, Crown Law, re. occupants of 12 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 20 13 P-437 Reserved 75 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon Commencing at 9:01 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 7 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed: 8 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 10 Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 12 morning. Good Morning. Good morning, Deputy. 13 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, Deputy 15 Carson. 16 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 17 18 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: If I could take you back to the 20 logger notes, yesterday we dealt with the call from 21 Inspector Hutchinson. And before we go on, there are in 22 that little red folder that's over there somewhere 23 there's some more press releases and there's a press 24 release that's a short one -- there are three (3) that I 25 wanted to refer to.

1 Now, there's one (1) released to public; 2 it's got September 6, 1912. It's Inquiry Document 3 10099042. 4 Do you see --it looks like this one; it's 5 got some handwriting on the bottom. It should be right 6 at the top, actually, or the third one in. It's Inquiry 7 Document 1009042? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And, this appears to be a press 10 release that was faxed from the OPP detachment on 11 September 6th at 9:12. Do you see the fax line at the 12 top? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And, is this a press release that was 15 issued by the Ontario Provincial Police? 16 A: I -- I don't believe so. I believe 17 this was faxed -- the note on the bottom -- this is a 18 release given to the public and I think it's a fax from 19 Les Kobayashi to Peter Sturdy, I believe, but it was 20 probably done at our detachment. So I'm not -- I'm not 21 sure that that went out -- it doesn't appear to have the 22 format of our normal press releases. 23 Q: Okay. So, you're not sure that that 24 one went out? 25 A: No. Sergeant Babbitt would have to

1 speak to that. 2 Q: Okay. I'll ask Sergeant Babbitt. 3 Then, there's -- the next document in that list; it's 4 Inquiry Document 1009045. And it has on it, "OPP Media 5 Ipperwash September 6th, 1995 1:46 p.m." 6 And, do you recognize that press release? 7 A: Document 1109045? 8 Q: Well, you may be looking at -- yeah, 9 let me just... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: Thank you. 14 Q: It's Inquiry Document 1009045 for 15 release September 6th and. At the bottom you will see: 16 "From OPP media Ipperwash, September 17 6th, 1995, 1:46 p.m."? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And, that's a media release that was 20 issued by the Ontario Provincial Police? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And, that refers to the removal of 23 the picnic tables on the morning at 8:30 a.m.? 24 A: That's correct 25 Q: Perhaps we could mark that the next

1 exhibit, please? 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-434, Your Honour. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-434. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-434: Document number 1009045. 6 Press release Sept 06/95, 7 1:46 p.m. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Then, the next release in this series 11 is simply a release dated September 6th, 1995 and it's, 12 again, from OPP media Ipperwash, September 6th, 1996 at 13 11:06. 14 And it simply is a notice that the media 15 centre was being relocated from the Forest Legion to the 16 Pinery Provincial Park on September 6th? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And, that was sent out? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Perhaps we'll mark that the next 21 exhibit? 22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1009043? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. Document 24 1009043. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-435, Your Honour.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-435. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, for the benefit 3 of My Friends, I apologize, the last one was 1009045. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-435: Document number 1009043. OPP 6 press release Sept 06/95, 7 11:06 a.m. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Then, if we could take you -- go back 11 to the logger notes at page 63, there's a discussion at 12 15:55 with respect to the crew of the tanks. 13 And it's referred to as 'tanks' but are 14 you referring to tanks or the light armoured vehicles? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: The light armoured vehicles? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And then there's a discussion again 19 at the bottom of the page about the concrete blocks? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And there's -- can you tell us, 22 there's a reference about: 23 "John Carson states we have to talk 24 about this. John Carson wants to know 25 if we ourselves will be hampered by the

1 barriers." 2 Can you just tell us about that? What was 3 your concern and what was the discussion? 4 A: Well, just from an operational 5 perspective and particularly from a tactical point of 6 view that I wanted a discussion, particularly with the 7 Staff Sergeant Skinner, who's the TRU leader, to take a 8 look at the -- the point whether or not installing 9 barriers at some point in time could have an adverse 10 affect on our ability to do some operations that may be 11 necessary. 12 Q: And just so that we understand the 13 area that you're talking about, this is an aerial 14 photograph that Mr. Emery is here to assist us today. 15 And it shows on the right, the Ipperwash Provincial Park 16 now as we know from the discussion when the emergency 17 medical people well are here and these maps were used 18 that this is an aerial photograph from 2003 so that the 19 area has changed a bit since then. 20 But can you tell us -- this Army Camp 21 Road, you can see it says, Army Camp Road, running north. 22 The road curves to East Parkway Drive, the road runs 23 north in through what has been referred in these 24 proceedings as the sandy parking lot down to the beach 25 and to the lake.

1 On this photograph the Ipperwash 2 Provincial Park is to the right in the northeast quadrant 3 of this image. And can you tell us -- there's a -- 4 should be laser pointer on the desk, could you point out, 5 Deputy Carson, where you wanted these blocks placed in 6 this area? 7 A: It would -- it would be down at this 8 end here where there could be vehicular access into this 9 area of the Provincial Park. 10 So, it would be right on, basically on 11 this black line. 12 Q: Down but on the beach? 13 A: Right. At the end of the -- where 14 the fencing stops. 15 Q: And perhaps we could just make a note 16 of that. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 I just want to make sure that -- that's 21 where you intended to have them put, they were never put 22 there? 23 A: That's correct. 24 Q: Then the -- there's a discussion; 25 Kent Skinner's in the command post at this time?

1 A: I believe so, yes. 2 Q: And so the discussion was that the 3 blocks be placed on Tuesday, September 7th? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: Then at 16:02 there's a discussion 6 with respect to telephone lines for the -- down at the 7 MNR parking lot for the TOC van and one for the LIMA 2; 8 is that correct? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And, LIMA 2 as we know, was in the 11 St. John's Ambulance trailer? 12 A: Right, that's the Sergeant Team 13 Leader. 14 Q: Pardon me? 15 A: That's the Sergeant Team Leader for 16 ERT. 17 Q: Yes. And -- but the location where 18 LIMA 2 was, was in the St. John's Ambulance... 19 A: That -- that's correct. 20 Q: And, at this point in time in the 21 afternoon of September 6th, was the TRU team truck that 22 was used as the TRU team tactical operations centre, was 23 it stationed at the Ministry of Natural Resources parking 24 lot? 25 A: No, sir.

1 Q: And, was a landline simply going to 2 be installed ready for its use when it arrived? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: If it arrived? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: Then, there's a note at 16:04 with 7 respect to the landlines being operational by six o'clock 8 tonight. 9 And, do you know if those lines were 10 operational by six o'clock? 11 A: I don't believe they were. 12 Q: You don't believe they were? 13 A: Not to my knowledge. 14 Q: Then -- 15 A: I know later that evening we 16 certainly didn't have hard line capability in the TOC 17 van. 18 Q: Okay. Then, at approximately four 19 o'clock, 16:07, you call and leave a message for Tim 20 McCabe with respect to call you back? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And then, you -- at 16:12, Tim McCabe 23 calls you back and for the benefit of My Friends, it's 24 call number 40 and it's -- this short transcript is at 25 page -- Tab 45.

1 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 2 3 Tim MCCABE: and John CARSON 4 September 6, 1995 5 TIME: 16.06.03 hours 6 Track 3.wav 7 8 MCLEAN: Command Post Sgt. MCLEAN. 9 MCCABE: Oh Inspector ah CARSON please. 10 MCLEAN: May I ask who's calling please? 11 MCCABE: It's Tim MCCABE at the 12 MCLEAN: Yes Tim 13 MCCABE: Attorney Generals Office. 14 MCLEAN: Yep I spoke to last time I remember the 15 name just one second please. 16 CARSON: John CARSON. 17 MCCABE: Oh hello ah John it's Tim MCCABE in 18 Toronto. 19 CARSON: Yes yes yeah I just ah called back I just 20 want to confirm ah Detective as Sergeant 21 Mark WRIGHT. 22 MCCABE: Okay. 23 CARSON: Will be our ah representative tomorrow 24 morning. 25 MCCABE: Detective Sergeant Mark WRIGHT.

1 CARSON Yes. 2 MCCABE: Okay and he ah will be able to speak as 3 authoritatively to these things as as you 4 would be. 5 CARSON: Yeah that's right well just just to give 6 you a little background on em ah ah when 7 ah Natives ah took over CFB Ipperwash in 8 ah May ninety-three (93). 9 MCCABE: Right. 10 CARSON: Ah he was involved as with that incident 11 ah in conjunction with myself who was 12 Incident Commander at that time and as 13 he's been intimately involved in in that 14 whole um um process since May ninety-three 15 (39) a where my ah police involvement has 16 ah taken place. 17 MCCABE: All right. 18 CARSON: Including execution of search warrants ah 19 relative to ah ah shots fired at a 20 Military helicopter in August of that 21 year. 22 MCCABE: I see. 23 CARSON: So ah other than myself he's the only one 24 that has been involved to that degree. 25 MCCABE: Okay.

1 CARSON: And he's he's been intimately involved in 2 all aspects of this operation. 3 MCCABE: Right all right ah so um I can reach him 4 at this same number ah 5 CARSON: Yeah. 6 MCCABE: this evening. 7 CARSON: That's right ah he's ah he's working out 8 of the same location as I am. 9 MCCABE: Right. 10 CARSON: And ah he's not here right at the moment 11 but ah ah but the number you called me at 12 is is the way to get a hold of him. 13 MCCABE: Okay and that'll that'll be good all 14 through this evening too. 15 CARSON: Yeah like he he may be away for for dinner 16 or something but ah he'll certainly we'll 17 certainly have contact get back to him 18 immediately. 19 MCCABE: Oh okay. 20 CARSON: Okay. 21 MCCABE: So it's eight (8) o'clock ah we're on at 22 nine (9) o'clock. 23 CARSON: Right. 24 MCCABE: If he could meet with us at eight (8) 25 o'clock tomorrow at the ah court house in

19
  1                 Sarnia.  I'm told that the ah the ah Crown
  2                 Attorney ah will let us in and and in fact
  3                 ah he's he's made available an officer a
  4                 room or something for us to have a a
  5                 conversation before court.
  6  CARSON:        Okay that's fine.
  7  MCCABE:        Yep.
  8  CARSON:        No problem at all and I'll I'll brief him
  9                 on the issues as I see it or or the
 10                 concerns that I have.
 11  MCCABE:        All right.
 12  CARSON:        Oh
 13  MCCABE:        and ah so we'll see him at eight (8)
 14                 o'clock in the morning.
 15  CARSON:        I appreciate that.
 16  MCCABE:        Right oh.
 17  CARSON:        Thank you.
 18  MCCABE:        Okay.
 19  CARSON:        Bye.
 20  MCCABE:        Bye bye.
 21  
 22  End of conversation
 23  
 24  CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
 25                 Q:   And at or about this time, the -- you

1 sent a letter to the -- Mr. McCabe. It signed by Mr. 2 Richardson on your behalf. If I could take you to Book 3 1, the large -- one of the large black binders there. 4 It's I -- it'll say on the front 'Book 1' 5 or the back 'Book 1' or 'Book 2'. If I could take you to 6 Tab 14; it's Inquiry Document 1011798. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And this is a letter dated September 9 6th, 1995 which has a fax header on it, OPP Forest Detach 10 Det -- D-E-T, I take it that's Detachment, September 6, 11 1995 at 16:07, and lists a number of names. 12 And was this letter sent under your 13 authority to Mr. McCabe? 14 A: Yes, it was. 15 Q: And the individuals identified -- the 16 twenty-six (26) individuals listed on the letter are the 17 individuals that had been identified as being on 18 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And perhaps we could mark that, 21 Commissioner, the next exhibit please. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-436, Your Honour 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 436. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-436: Inquiry Document 1011798.

1 Sept 06/95, 16:07 Fax from 2 J.F. Carson, Acting 3 Superintendent Incident 4 Commander to Mr. Tim McCabe, 5 Ministry of the Attorney 6 General, Crown Law, re. 7 occupants of Ipperwash 8 Provincial Park. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: Then there's a note about having, at 12 16:15, about having the blocks taken to Pinery -- 13 concrete blocks taken to Pinery Park and not the TOC at 14 the MNR parking lot; is that correct? 15 That's at page 64. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And in these scribe notes there's a 18 number of references to Talk, T-A-L-K, but really what 19 it's referring is TOC, Tactical Operation Centre? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: Then at 16:16 there's a note, and 22 could you tell us about it? There's -- for a short 23 period of time Captain Doug Smith of the Canadian Army is 24 at the command post? 25 A: Yes, Smith returned to the command

1 post and indicated to me that he felt Les Jewells was 2 running things at the Park. There's really no leadership 3 there anymore. Wants to meet with Les Jewells possibly 4 on Friday. Wondered if we wanted anything brought up. 5 And I indicated that I would appreciate it 6 if he would just contact us in advance and if we had any 7 issues, we would certainly discuss it at time. 8 Q: And there's a note: 9 "John Carson really had no contact." 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And did Captain Smith indicate to you 12 or do you recall, the basis of his statement that Les 13 Jewells was running things at the Park? 14 A: I'm not sure if he had -- had a 15 direct discussion with Jewells or others but I know that 16 Smith had been on an ongoing basis in contact with people 17 at the built-up area of the Military Base in respect to 18 issues of maintenance. 19 So, I can only guess that this information 20 was as a result of that ongoing relationship he had there 21 to deal with the maintenance issues on the Base proper 22 that he's drawn these conclusions. 23 Q: And, you cannot recall whether he 24 said anything specifically as to the source of that 25 information?

1 A: I'm afraid I'm unable to do that. 2 Q: And, the logger notes has Jules 3 spelled, J-U-L-E-S, at -- but it's Jewell is J-E-W-E-L-L; 4 that's the person you're talking about? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: Then -- and, if Captain Smith was -- 7 you believed, was speaking -- speaking to people at the 8 Army Camp about the maintenance at the Army Camp, why did 9 you not use Captain Smith to discuss -- ask Captain Smith 10 to discuss the OPP's position with his contacts at the 11 Army Camp to discuss with the people in the Park? 12 A: Well, because of the ongoing issue 13 with the Military Base itself, I certainly didn't want 14 occupiers to see or believe that there was a -- I'm not 15 sure if the right term's relationship, but that -- that 16 the OPP and the Military were working together towards 17 issues against the occupiers, that I -- I wanted to 18 certainly have it the appearance that the Military had 19 their business and we had our business. 20 Certainly, in retrospect, I certainly 21 probably could have used Captain Smith to, perhaps, 22 stimulate more information but I think it would be 23 inappropriate to try to use Captain Smith as an 24 intermediary, given his role and the position between 25 the land claim of the Military Base and -- and the

1 occupiers and -- and the Military's relationship; that I 2 wanted the OPP to be seen as independent from the 3 Military's issue with the Occupiers. 4 Q: Okay. And, did you think about -- 5 let me back up. 6 At this point in the afternoon of 7 September 6th, the position of the OPP was if -- was that 8 the occupiers would remain in the Park until there was an 9 injunction granted ordering the OPP to do something, from 10 the OPP's perspective? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: And, so long as the occupiers stayed 13 in the Park, then the OPP was not going to go into the 14 Park -- 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: -- without a court order? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And, the OPP was -- at this point in 19 time, what was it's position with respect to the sandy 20 parking lot; and, this is at four o'clock on the 21 afternoon of September 6th? 22 A: Well, in -- in my view the sandy 23 parking lot is a very different issue than the Provincial 24 Park. Again, the Provincial Park is -- is under the 25 ownership of the Ministry of Natural Resources. Natural

1 Resources is in the process of getting an injunction 2 relative to that. 3 The sandy parking lot is -- at that time, 4 I believe, it was township or county property, I'm not 5 100 percent clear, however, it was a -- a separate issue 6 altogether. So, the -- the view was, as long as the 7 Occupiers stayed in the Park, the process would be 8 proceed with the injunction, stay the course, just 9 maintain the security in the area and for lack of a 10 better term, it's kind of business as usual. 11 The -- the parking lot was a -- a separate 12 issue. I believe we made the point in regards to the 13 picnic tables earlier in the day that we weren't prepared 14 to allow activity, criminal activity in particular, or -- 15 to deal with that. 16 It would an untenable situation, giving 17 its proximity to the cottages and the information we had 18 received up to that point about the cottages being next. 19 Q: And did you consider asking Captain 20 Smith to pass the message to the people at the Base that 21 if the occupiers stayed within the Park and did not come 22 out of the Park, that the OPP would not go into the Park? 23 A: No, I didn't -- I didn't think that 24 through. 25 Q: Okay. Then the blocks -- at 16:16

1 there's a note that blocks are being sent to -- they were 2 at Pinery Park and the idea was, at that point, to put 3 them in place the next morning at seven o'clock on 4 September the 7th? 5 A: Well there was some -- there had been 6 some discussion about putting them at the -- at the MNR 7 parking lot overnight, but I - I'd asked that they be 8 taken to the Pinery instead, and basically kept out of 9 sight, and then they'd placed in the following morning. 10 Q: Okay. And then there's a note, the 11 second paragraph of the note at 16:16 with respect to 12 security. What's that refer to? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Oh, I believe that was at the 17 Detachment in Forest. 18 Q: Okay. And the -- what was the 19 concern with respect to security at the Detachment in 20 Forest? 21 A: Just given all the activity that was 22 going on, we needed a couple of people there just to 23 ensure that anyone coming to the command post had a 24 business to be there, given it's a regular -- normally, 25 an operational Detachment, that we needed people to

1 direct them to Grand Bend, if necessary, or assist them 2 or if people come in to the command post to see me, they 3 weren't allowed to barge in to the command post. 4 Q: Okay. And then at 16:25 there's a 5 note, there had been a request for some additional 6 security, I see in the notes, with respect to Sarnia and 7 then there's a note at 16:25 that they wanted someone 8 familiar with the -- I take it, with the -- with the 9 occupiers? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And there's a note: 12 "John Carson advised don't want to put 13 Constable George in that position." 14 And so you did not want to use Constable 15 George to identify people? 16 A: I didn't want him at the Court where 17 there was a potential for an altercation and that he 18 would be caught in the middle of it. 19 Q: Pardon me? 20 A: I didn't want him in Court, and if 21 there was some sort of a confrontation there during the 22 injunction hearing that would find Constable George in 23 the middle of -- of an altercation. 24 Q: The Les Kobayashi's back in the 25 command post at 16:29 and there's a discussion there with

1 respect to the affidavit and that Mark Wright will be 2 your -- the OPP spokesperson? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And a discussion about the blocks? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Then you ask about the list of 7 persons that we've just marked as Exhibit P-436? 8 A: Yes, Richardson indicated it had been 9 faxed. 10 Q: And then at the top of page 66 11 there's a note. Can you tell what that refers to; the 12 first paragraph; the trailer and cameras; the first two 13 (2) points on page 66? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I'm not sure what that discussion -- 18 which trailer we're speaking about. 19 Q: Okay. Then there's a note at 16:42: 20 "Mark Wright and Marg Eve returned from 21 the Park. A few people came and talked 22 to us." 23 And there's a note farther down at page -- 24 on that same page 16:44 with respect to the -- the 25 discussion. Can you tell us what you recall with respect

1 to what Marg Eve and Mark Wright told you? 2 A: Yes. Marg Eve and Mark Wright came 3 back to the command post and they talked about one (1) of 4 the vehicles down there that had MNR lights on it and 5 some discussion about arresting them for stolen vehicles. 6 And Mark Wright indicated he talked with 7 the First Nations person who was operating a vehicle with 8 Ontario license plates on it bearing 062-XCS and the 9 operator stated that they will settle this with guns. 10 Q: And did he tell you -- did he 11 identify the person, did he know the person? 12 A: I don't believe that he knew the name 13 of the person involved. 14 Q: Right. 15 A: I believe at some point in time, 16 perhaps Marg Eve did know the name. 17 Q: And do you have any recollection of 18 the name? 19 A: I'd have to check Marg Eve's notes 20 but I -- I can tell you what I believe it was. 21 Q: Yes? 22 A: I believe it was Dudley George. 23 Q: Okay. And then what else was said? 24 A: Mark Wright and I had a discussion 25 about him appearing in Court tomorrow morning and that I

1 would discuss those details with Mark later. Mark Wright 2 indicated that Les Jewells was in the Park on a picnic 3 table but wouldn't talk to them. 4 And there was some discussion about the 5 media being there, women and children. I asked how many 6 kids were down there and he said four (4) to six (6). 7 They were playing in the area. 8 She -- Marg Eve indicated that a fourteen 9 (14) year old came up to her telling her that he wasn't 10 going to talk to them. She indicated that JP was his 11 name. And Mark Wright told him to go and tell the adults 12 that we want to talk to them. 13 He told -- he told him that and he had 14 left the area. I got a note here that Constable Evans 15 got a picture of the person who said that, We will settle 16 it with guns. 17 Q: And have you seen that picture? Do 18 you know who that picture -- where that picture is? 19 A: I don't believe I've seen it. 20 Q: Okay. Yes? 21 A: I had some discussion with Marg Eve 22 and suggested that when she's down there in uniform it 23 might be better if she removed the stripes from her 24 uniform so it wouldn't appear that she had -- that she 25 was a ranking officer.

1 And I indicated that she should go in in 2 plain clothes and jeans and just simply wear an outer 3 vest as opposed to going in uniform. I thought that 4 might create a more comfortable situation for -- for the 5 approach. 6 And that was about the contents of the 7 discussion as we made note of. 8 Q: And I can't recall was -- did Vince 9 George go down with them to the Park at this point? 10 A: I don't -- I don't believe so. 11 Q: It was just Mark Wright and Marg Eve? 12 A: That's -- that's my recollection. 13 Q: And did they tell you what the -- and 14 it's not in the notes, but did they tell you what the 15 mood in the Park was when they were down there? 16 Kid -- you said children were playing and 17 -- in the Park? 18 A: Well, at that point in time there was 19 a number of vehicles driving around and I -- I think, you 20 know, it was captured in -- in media coverage as well, 21 vehicles being driven around in an erratic manner, 22 particularly for the -- appeared for the benefit of our 23 officers were close by. 24 Q: So, that people were acting out, as 25 you say, for the benefit of the officers and perhaps for

1 the media when the officers were close by? 2 A: That -- that was my sense of it. 3 Q: And, that's not an unusual thing for 4 people at times to taunt police officers? 5 A: It does occur. 6 Q: And the -- with respect to the 7 reference, They will settle this with guns, did Mark 8 Wright or Marg Eve indicate anything about the demeanor 9 of the person who spoke to them? 10 A: I can't recollect if there was any 11 discussion about that particular point. 12 Q: Did -- do you have any recollection 13 if the person was... 14 A: Well, I'll put it this way, I didn't 15 get a sense that it was in jest. Put it that way. 16 Q: Okay. And then, there's a note: 17 "OPP Who car stuck in the sand on our 18 side." 19 And, who told you that? 20 See it; 16:44? Did -- 21 A: Oh, yes. Yes. I'm not sure who 22 reported that in, but I believe that was on the side of 23 Outer Drive as opposed to the sandy parking lot. 24 Q: Oh, on the Outer Drive side? 25 A: That -- that's as I recollect and

1 that's simply from memory. 2 Q: And, the OPP Who car was simply a car 3 that had painted on it, "OPP" and then the words, "W-H- 4 O"? 5 A: That's correct. It was, I believe a 6 -- a white car and it had been -- and there were some 7 tail fins attached to it. 8 Q: And, this was the car that was 9 reported up as being the OPP car that had been taken by 10 the occupiers? 11 A: I believe so, yes. 12 Q: And, that the -- I think in one -- in 13 the call with -- the first call, I believe with Ron Fox, 14 they talked about the -- talked about them -- someone at 15 the MNR saying occupiers had an OPP car and Ron Fox had 16 said that he didn't think when the car they did have 17 simply said on it, "OPP Who" 18 A: Correct. I suspect the information 19 was, there was a car with "OPP" on it and that got 20 construed to be an OPP car. 21 Q: And, that's part of the problem as -- 22 no matter in what situation when information goes through 23 two (2) or three (3) or four (4) or five (5) levels of 24 people, the information gets changed and distorted from 25 how it started out?

1 A: Correct. It's always problematic. 2 Q: And, that's whether it's dealing with 3 a police situation or any other situation? 4 A: I would agree. 5 Q: Then, you had a discussion at 16:35, 6 which is noted at 16:42 here, but it's 16:35 with 7 Inspector Robinson and Mr. -- Inspector Robertson was the 8 individual that was dealing with -- he gave logistics 9 support. 10 He was the gentleman looking after the 11 helicopter issue? 12 A: Correct. He's from -- 13 Q: And -- 14 A: -- from General Headquarters. 15 Q: From General Headquarters? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And, General Headquarters, at this 18 time was still in Toronto or had it moved to Orillia? 19 A: Actually, it was -- it was just 20 literally opening at that time in Orillia. 21 Q: In Orillia? 22 A: A brand new facility. 23 Q: And, it's Tab 46; it's call number 24 41. 25

1 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 2 3 Insp. Ed ROBERTSON and CARSON 4 September 6, 1995 5 TIME: 16.35.06 hours 6 Track 2.wav 7 8 ARCHIBALD: Command Post ARCHIBALD. 9 ROBERTSON: Mr. ARCHIBALD. 10 ARCHIBALD: Yes. 11 ROBERTSON: Inspector ROBERTSON. 12 ARCHIBALD: Inspector ROBERTSON how are you now. 13 ROBERTSON: I'm just fine. 14 ARCHIBALD: Is your day getting any better? 15 ROBERTSON: Uh I don't know. 16 ARCHIBALD: You don't know. 17 ROBERTSON: Who's hanging around there? 18 ARCHIBALD: Ah I've got ah KOROSEC, Inspector CARSON 19 ah 20 ROBERTSON: Let me speak to John would ya. 21 ARCHIBALD: SKINNER okay just one moment 22 (pause) 23 CARSON: John CARSON. 24 ROBERTSON: Hi, it's Eddie. 25 CARSON: Hey how are you doing?

1 ROBERTSON: Not bad I've got sixty-four (64)sets of 2 Nomex Kevelard (ph) coveralls being sorted 3 off a stock shelf right now being loaded 4 into a purolator airplane in Edmonton and 5 they'll be here tomorrow. 6 CARSON: Excellent appreciate that we may need them 7 before we're over. 8 ROBERTSON: Yeah ah the only thing John is that they 9 won't have sh arm shoulder flashes. 10 CARSON: Yeah. 11 ROBERTSON: Um but there gray so the guys should be 12 wearing their gray vests. 13 CARSON: Yep. 14 ROBERTSON: Okay. 15 CARSON: That's right they'd be over top anyway. 16 ROBERTSON: Yeah so at least they're identifiable as 17 police. 18 CARSON: Yep shouldn't be a problem we'll certainly 19 address that. 20 ROBERTSON: Okay and you got the night vision. 21 CARSON: Yep excellent appreciate that all the toys 22 there ah the batons we've got the batons 23 from the ah ASP batons. 24 ROBERTSON: Yeah and then I guess they sent down the 25 their four (4) two (2) two (2) three (3)

1 and four (4) shotguns with em too. 2 CARSON: (laughs) Yeah the guys asked what's the 3 bonus here (laughs). 4 ROBERTSON: Well remember John I own those. 5 CARSON: Okay that's fine that's fine we'll be glad 6 to send it back hopefully with every 7 bullet. 8 ROBERTSON: Ah yes okay. 9 CARSON: (laughs) 10 ROBERTSON: MNR cop coppers still there er. 11 CARSON: Yep oh yeah ah excellent we we've got some 12 excellent video air footage from the air 13 ah it's really helping us out in our sh 14 planning stages here. It 15 ROBERTSON: Yeah. 16 CARSON: It's just been excellent the guys been 17 nothing but cooperative perfect. 18 ROBERTSON: It should for the fuckin price I'm paying 19 for him (laughs). 20 CARSON: Yeah yeah right yeah well I tell you MNR 21 has really helped us out like they they're 22 running a kitchen down there for our 23 troops and everything they're they're 24 excellent. 25 ROBERTSON: (u/I)

1 CARSON: Just hang on just hang on just hold on one 2 sec here hang on. 3 (pause) 4 CARSON: Yeah okay no problem I just ah tied up 5 some of the little things here. Anyway so 6 ah yeah they've they've been ah it's great 7 and like and ah everything is coming 8 through ah any idea when ah military is 9 going to want the guys for the training. 10 (background talking) 11 ROBERTSON: Not yet but I'll take care of that ah 12 first thing in the morning. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 ROBERTSON: Because I'm trying to get a letter through 15 Sol Gen to Sol Gen I've got a draft here 16 right now. 17 CARSON: What I got a letter of agreement of usual 18 you mean. 19 ROBERTSON: Well yeah what it is is asking for ah it 20 says in just Commissioner O'Grady's asked 21 that I seek your assistance to arrange an 22 agreement for the loan or lease of the 23 type of the vehicle on an on needed basis 24 okay. 25 CARSON: All right.

1 ROBERTSON: Ah the OPP will adhere to any restrictions 2 required including the covering of all the 3 DND identification, ah the OPP will 4 provide experience vehicle operators okay. 5 CARSON: Yep. 6 ROBERTSON: Put our own markings on them. 7 CARSON: Right matter of fact I have the whole 8 decal kits here. 9 ROBERTSON: Okay so this can be faxed actually Phil I 10 think was faxing it to RUNSMAN's offices 11 as of about an hour ago. 12 CARSON: Okay. 13 ROBERTSON: Ah and then I'll set up the training first 14 thing in the morning that has to I have to 15 make ah an under the table request. 16 CARSON: Okay okay. 17 ROBERTSON: (laughs) 18 CARSON: No problem. 19 ROBERTSON: All right so that's rolling. 20 CARSON: Okay. 21 ROBERTSON: Anything else. 22 CARSON: No no I think other than that we're in 23 pretty good shape. That's that's great I 24 appreciate all your help. 25 ROBERTSON: You're welcome.

1 CARSON: Eh I tell yah (laughs) it's been busy 2 around here. 3 ROBERTSON: I imagine. 4 CARSON: Yeah. 5 ROBERTSON: Is SKINNER still looking for me or was he 6 just being rude earlier. 7 CARSON: Ah just a second (to background) 8 Kent were you looking for Inspector 9 ROBERTSON? 10 He he has a question for you whatever it 11 is he he was he's not really that bad of 12 an asshole you really don't have to say 13 that about him. 14 ROBERTSON: (laughs) 15 CARSON: (laughs) You sit here and just ah what the 16 fucks going on here. Here he is. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And he then continues to have a 20 discussion with Kent Skinner about an issue involving the 21 TRU team, but not with respect to anything in relation to 22 the Ipperwash Park? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And the -- can you tell us -- there's 25 at page 297 of this transcript, there's at the top of the

1 page, it's Robertson and he's talking about the Nomex 2 Kevlar overalls and you respond: 3 "Excellent, appreciate that. We may 4 need them before we're over." 5 And what we're you referring to? 6 A: Well that's Nomex, and it's Kevlar; 7 it's -- that's the material the coveralls are made of, 8 the fire retardant material. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: It's just that at, you know, at some 11 point in time, if and when the injunction is provided and 12 depending on the status of that, it may be necessary to 13 have that kind of kit available to us. 14 Q: All right. And at the bottom of the 15 page, I take it that Mr. Robertson had sent down -- 16 Inspector Robertson, some additional rifles; is that 17 correct? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And there were four (4) .223s; and 20 what's that refer to? 21 A: That -- that's the model of weapon. 22 Q: Okay. And that's a -- 23 A: That's a rifle. 24 Q: A rifle. 25 A: Normally used by ERT personnel.

1 Q: Normally used by the ERT people? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And four (4) shotguns? 4 A: Right. 5 Q: And had you requested these 6 additional firearms? 7 A: No, that was why the commentary there 8 about being the bonus because, quite frankly, I would 9 suggest Robertson wasn't known for sending anything that 10 wasn't requested. 11 Q: Okay. And then you note, 12 "Okay, that's fine, that's fine. We'll 13 be glad to send it back hopefully with 14 every bullet." 15 And what were you referring to there, sir? 16 A: I was indicating I hoped we wouldn't 17 need the equipment at all. 18 Q: Okay. And then at the book -- page 19 298 at the bottom of the page, he refers to the letter 20 from the Commissioner with respect to requesting the 21 equipment. 22 Did you have any understanding of what had 23 to happen in order for a request for the use of the 24 military equipment to be put through? 25 A: Well, I understood there had to be a

1 formal request to go up the chain, and it had to go up 2 through the Solicitor General and to the Federal 3 Solicitor General. 4 Q: Okay. Had you ever been involved in 5 such a request before this incident? 6 A: No. And that type of request is -- 7 is normally done by the headquarter staff, and Robertson 8 would be normally -- his position in that particular 9 bureau he worked in, would normally be the place where 10 that would originate. 11 Q: Okay. Now, if I could take you back. 12 We spoke briefly yesterday about the -- an individual by 13 the name of Cindy Elder. 14 A: Yes. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And we don't have, 16 Commissioner, a transcript of Ms. Elder's first call, but 17 we have a call that -- there's a partial transcript; it's 18 at Tab 43. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And it's a -- the transcript there is 22 between Bob Grimalson and Mr. -- and Deputy Carson. And 23 who is Bob Grimalson, Deputy Carson? 24 A: Actually, it's Bob Drummelsmith. 25 Q: Oh, how do you...

1 A: D-R-U-M-M-E-L-S-M-I-T-H. 2 Q: Can you do that for me again? D-R..? 3 A: D-R-U-M-M-E-L-S-M-I-T-H. He's the 4 Com. Centre unit commander staff sergeant at London Com. 5 Centre. 6 Q: Okay. And this is the -- Cindy 7 Elder is the person that you referred to yesterday? 8 A: Yes. 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 11 12 CINDY ELDER and BOB DRUMMELSMITH 13 14 ELDER: Is this Mr. CARSON? 15 DRUMMELSMITH: No, it's not. 16 ELDER: Oh, I'm sorry, I was looking for John 17 Carson. 18 DRUMMELSMITH: Yeah, he's not in the building right now, 19 could I take a message? 20 ELDER: You sure can, it's Cindy Elder calling 21 from Approaches Mediation. 22 DRUMMELSMITH: Hmm hmm. Purchase Mediation? 23 ELDER: No, Approaches Mediation, sorry. I get 24 all tongue tied sometimes when I -- 25 DRUMMELSMITH: Hmm hmm.

1 ELDER: -- say the name of our own place here. 2 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay, and what did you need -- what -- 3 could I have him call you back? 4 ELDER: You can do. Actually why I'm calling, is 5 that he and I spoke I guess well over a 6 month ago. 7 DRUMMELSMITH: Hmm hmm. 8 ELDER: And Ipperwash was sort of winding down and 9 seemed to be under control. 10 DRUMMELSMITH: Hmm hmm. 11 ELDER: And I see it's -- 12 (Background conversation) 13 ELDER: -- turned up the volume again? 14 DRUMMELSMITH: Quite a bit. 15 ELDER: Yeah. So I thought I would give him a 16 call back again. 17 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay. 18 ELDER: I'm also dealing with Gustafsen Lake out 19 west too. 20 DRUMMELSMITH: Oh. 21 ELDER: So there may be some stuff from that 22 you might be able to use that might help 23 you with this one (1). 24 DRUMMELSMITH: You know, I could get him to call you 25 right back if you'd give me your number.

46
  1  ELDER:         Sure can, it's -- I'll give you the one  
  2                 (1) eight hundred (800) line.  One (1) 
  3                 eight hundred (800) -- 
  4  DRUMMELSMITH:  Hmm hmm.
  5  ELDER:         Eight (8) one (1) one (1) nine (9) eight  
  6                 (8) seven (7) five (5).
  7  DRUMMELSMITH:  Nine (9) eight (8) seven (7) five (5).
  8  ELDER:         Right.
  9  DRUMMELSMITH:  Okay, with any luck at all he should call 
 10                 you back within a couple minutes.
 11  ELDER:         Terrific.
 12  DRUMMELSMITH:  Okay.
 13  ELDER:         Thanks.
 14  DRUMMELSMITH:  All right, bye now.
 15  
 16  End of Conversation.
 17  
 18  Bob GRIMALSON & CARSON 
 19  September 6, 1995
 20  TIME: 15.56.52 hours
 21  Track 1.wav 
 22  
 23  ARCHIBALD:     Command Post ARCHIBALD.
 24  GRIMALSON:     Yeah is ah CARSON there?
 25  ARCHIBALD:     Just one moment can I advise who's calling

1 sir? 2 GRIMALSON: Yeah it's Bob GRIMALSON. 3 ARCHIBALD: Just one moment please. 4 CARSON: John CARSON. 5 GRIMALSON: Yeah John it's ah Bob GRIMALSON calling. 6 CARSON: Yeah. 7 GRIMALSON: I just got a call from a lady Cindy ELDER 8 of Approaches and Mediation. 9 CARSON: Oh yeah Cindy ELDER yeah. 10 GRIMALSON: And she wanted ah you to call her and 11 seemed to think it was important. I've 12 got a one (1) eight hundred (800) number. 13 CARSON: Okay would you call her back. 14 GRIMALSON: Uh huh. 15 CARSON: Say I'm extremely busy and unless there is 16 something that she can supply you of 17 information that ah is of urgent nature I 18 just don't have time. 19 GRIMALSON: Okay. 20 CARSON: Okay cause like I am immdated with phone 21 calls from hell and back. 22 GRIMALSON: Okay. 23 CARSON: And ah unless there's something that has 24 ah a direct effect on this incident I 25 don't have time today to talk to her.

1 GRIMALSON: Okay. 2 CARSON: And ah the best I can do is sometime 3 tomorrow. 4 GRIMALSON: Okay. 5 CARSON: Okay. 6 GRIMALSON: Alrighty. 7 CARSON: And and we're not trying to be ignorant 8 I'm just you know that's just life right 9 now. 10 GRIMALSON: Yep. 11 CARSON: Okay. 12 GRIMALSON: No problem. 13 CARSON: Thanks Bob. 14 GRIMALSON: Yep. 15 CARSON: Right. 16 End of conversation 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: And, the -- I'll play the balance of 20 the call, because Mr. Drummelsmith calls her back. 21 Unfortunately, we'll have to work through the call, but 22 you had made a note in your notebook which is -- or your 23 -- the little three (3) ring scratch pad that you used; 24 it's part of Exhibit 4 -- P-410, page 56? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And, Cindy Elder called Bob 2 Drummelsmith? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And, does that refer to this call 5 with Mr. Drummelsmith? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And then, there's a note: 8 "Tim McCabe, 08:00, courthouse, Sarnia 9 [something] office." 10 A: Don Vale? 11 Q: Pardon? 12 A: Don Vale. 13 Q: Don Vale office. And, that's a note 14 from your call with Tim McCabe? 15 A: Tim McCabe. 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT FOLLOWS) 18 19 CINDY ELDER and STAFF SERGEANT DRUMMELSMITH 20 21 DRUMMELSMITH: Staff Sergeant DRUMMELSMITH. 22 ELDER: Is this Mr. CARSON? 23 DRUMMELSMITH: No, it's not. 24 ELDER: Oh, I actually was looking for John at 25 this one.

50
  1  DRUMMELSMITH:  Yeah, I can likely get him to call you  
  2                 right back if you'd give me a number.
  3  ELDER:         Sure can.  It's -- I'll give you the one 
  4                 (1) eight hundred (800) line, one (1) 
  5                 eight hundred (800) -- 
  6  DRUMMELSMITH:  Hmm hmm.
  7  ELDER:         Eight (8) one (1) one (1) nine (9) eight  
  8                 (8) seven (7) five (5).
  9  DRUMMELSMITH:  Nine (9) eight (8) seven (7) five (5).
 10  ELDER:         Right.
 11  DRUMMELSMITH:  Okay, with any luck at all he should call 
 12                 you back within a couple minutes.
 13  ELDER:         Terrific.
 14  DRUMMELSMITH:  Okay.
 15  ELDER:         Thanks.
 16  DRUMMELSMITH:  All right, bye now.
 17  
 18  End of Conversation.
 19  
 20  Bob GRIMALSON & CARSON 
 21  September 6, 1995
 22  TIME: 15.56.52 hours
 23  Track 1.wav 
 24  
 25  ARCHIBALD:     Command Post ARCHIBALD.

1 GRIMALSON: Yeah is ah CARSON there? 2 ARCHIBALD: Just one moment can I advise who's calling 3 sir? 4 GRIMALSON: Yeah it's Bob GRIMALSON. 5 ARCHIBALD: Just one moment please. 6 CARSON: John CARSON. 7 GRIMALSON: Yeah John it's ah Bob GRIMALSON calling. 8 CARSON: Yeah. 9 GRIMALSON: I just got a call from a lady Cindy ELDER 10 of Approaches and Mediation. 11 CARSON: Oh yeah Cindy ELDER yeah. 12 GRIMALSON: And she wanted ah you to call her and 13 seemed to think it was important. I've 14 got a one (1) eight hundred (800) number. 15 CARSON: Okay would you call her back. 16 GRIMALSON: Uh huh. 17 CARSON: Say I'm extremely busy and unless there is 18 something that she can supply you of 19 information that ah is of urgent nature I 20 just don't have time. 21 GRIMALSON: Okay. 22 CARSON: Okay cause like I am immdated with phone 23 calls from hell and back. 24 GRIMALSON: Okay. 25 CARSON: And ah unless there's something that has

1 ah a direct effect on this incident I 2 don't have time today to talk to her. 3 GRIMALSON: Okay. 4 CARSON: And ah the best I can do is sometime 5 tomorrow. 6 GRIMALSON: Okay. 7 CARSON: Okay. 8 GRIMALSON: Alrighty. 9 CARSON: And and we're not trying to be ignorant 10 I'm just you know that's just life right 11 now. 12 GRIMALSON: Yep. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 GRIMALSON: No problem. 15 CARSON: Thanks Bob. 16 GRIMALSON: Yep. 17 CARSON: Right. 18 End of conversation 19 20 CINDY ELDER and STAFF SERGEANT DRUMMELSMITH 21 22 (phone ringing) 23 ELDER: Approaches Mediation. 24 DRUMMELSMITH: Yes, Cindy? 25 ELDER: Yes.

1 DRUMMELSMITH: Yeah, it's Bob DRUMMELSMITH calling. 2 ELDER: Hi. 3 DRUMMELSMITH: I was able to get a hold of John CARSON, 4 and he said unless it's something that 5 could assist with the incident they're 6 dealing with right now, the closest he 7 could get back to you is tomorrow. 8 but -- that's a little blunt maybe but -- 9 ELDER: Well, that's why I was calling was to 10 offer him some assistance with the 11 situation right now. 12 DRUMMELSMITH: Yeah, that's what I suggested to him. 13 ELDER: Yes. No, that is definitely why I was 14 calling him. I would not even impose 15 myself on him under the circumstances, I 16 know what he is going through. 17 DRUMMELSMITH: Hmm hmm. 18 ELDER: Yeah, I think I could definitely help him 19 out with that. 20 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay. 21 ELDER: If -- if he wants me to. 22 DRUMMELSMITH: Yeah, I'm kind of caught in the middle 23 here, right. 24 ELDER: Oh, I'm sure you are. That's fine. I 25 just thought that in light of the fact

1 that I've been working with the RCMP on 2 The West Coast with Gustafsen, as you 3 know that's like really hot right now. 4 DRUMMELSMITH: Hmm hmm. 5 ELDER: That, you know, he may want to try some of 6 of the stuff that we've done to try and 7 calm that one (1) down. 8 DRUMMELSMITH: Hmm hmm, okay. 9 ELDER: I'm still in town right now, so timing is 10 good. 11 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay. Okay, I can relay the message to 12 him. He is the boss, so if -- 13 ELDER: Okay. 14 DRUMMELSMITH: -- if he's -- like I don't always 15 (inaudible) he's really busy. 16 ELDER: Yeah. 17 DRUMMELSMITH: So anyway, he will get back to you, but he 18 said it may not be until tomorrow. 19 ELDER: Okay, that's -- 20 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay. 21 ELDER: -- that's fine, just so that he -- you 22 know, I just want him to know that, yes, I 23 was still keeping an eye on it and -- 24 DRUMMELSMITH: Hmm hmm. 25 ELDER: -- if he wants some help with it, we'd be

1 happy to offer him some assistance, and -- 2 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay. 3 ELDER: -- take it from there. 4 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay, Cindy. 5 ELDER: Thanks a lot. 6 DRUMMELSMITH: I will relay this information. 7 ELDER: Okay. 8 DRUMMELSMITH: Okay. 9 ELDER: Bye bye. 10 DRUMMELSMITH: Bye now. 11 12 End of conversation. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 15 Q: And it was Ms. Elder, was the only 16 person that you told us earlier in your evidence that 17 called to ask -- try to assist? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And on this page 56 of Exhibit 410, 20 after the note to McCabe, there's a note that looks like: 21 "front-end loader, forklift." 22 A: Yes. 23 "A bus in the built-up area. Les and 24 Russ running the show. Leadership 25 questionable."

1 Q: And when was that note made as best 2 as you can recall today, Deputy Carson? 3 A: My guess -- best guess is that's, you 4 know, in the afternoon of the 6th. 5 Q: And with respect to the next note: 6 "Will settle this with guns." 7 And then the license number appears on the 8 left. 9 "Mark Wright, women and children, six 10 (6) kids." 11 Was that note made after the note about 12 Les and Russ? 13 A: I'm making the assumption it was. 14 Q: And perhaps to assist, you had a 15 meeting with Captain Smith; was this note made as part or 16 part of it made as a result of your meeting with Captain 17 Smith? 18 A: That would seem to be -- to make 19 sense, yes. 20 Q: And Les and Russ, who do they refer 21 to? 22 A: That's -- that's Les and Russ Jewell. 23 Q: Okay. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 Q: Then you had a discussion with Doug 2 Babbitt at 16:55 and it's -- 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: -- Tab 47; the transcript. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And, it's noted at 16:48. It's -- 7 for the benefit of My Friends, it's call number 42 on the 8 Carson Complete -- Master Complete List. 9 10 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 11 12 CARSON and Doug BABBITT 13 September 6, 1995 14 TIME: 16.48.00 hours 15 Track 1.wav 16 17 CARSON: Doug. 18 BABBITT: Yes. 19 CARSON: How are yeah. 20 BABBITT: All right. 21 CARSON: Good. 22 BABBITT: Um do we now have a spokesperson we're 23 dealing with? 24 CARSON: No. 25 BABBITT: We don't eh.

1 CARSON: No. 2 BABBITT: So we still have no contact with anybody 3 inside that ah camp. 4 CARSON: Well we were down there again this 5 afternoon. 6 BABBITT: Okay. 7 CARSON: And we attempted to ah make contact see if 8 we could have ah they would identify 9 somebody to us as a spokesperson. 10 BABBITT: Yeah. 11 CARSON: And they refused to talk to us. 12 BABBITT: They did ah. 13 CARSON: Yeah. 14 BABBITT: Okay. 15 CARSON: Yeah so adult ah adult ah natives were 16 there and refused to ah to ah talk to our 17 ah people. 18 BABBITT: Okay I I just wanted to check on that and 19 make sure that something hadn't occurred 20 in in the meantime. 21 CARSON: Yeah the only one between you and me the 22 only ones that would talk to them were the 23 kids. 24 BABBITT: Really. 25 CARSON: Yeah yeah.

1 BABBITT: Isn't that something eh. 2 CARSON: Yeah. 3 BABBITT: Oh okay we're going to be pulling the plug 4 here pretty soon and moving our stuff down 5 to their location 6 CARSON: Oh is everything set up down there. 7 BABBITT: Yeah it's all set to go so I mean it's 8 it's an easy move. 9 CARSON: How how are the folks at the Legion okay? 10 BABBITT: Oh yeah they're fine they you know there's 11 no difficulty there at all. I'm going to 12 turn over the key back to them the tables 13 and chairs are back here and we'll be out 14 of their hair. 15 CARSON: Tell them we appreciate their help. 16 BABBITT: Okay. 17 CARSON: Yep. 18 BABBITT: We'll we'll get some of my fancy thank you 19 letters later (laughs). 20 CARSON: Ah I was going to say ah like don't forget 21 after this is over will ah we'll make it 22 right with em. 23 BABBITT: Yep. 24 CARSON: Okay. 25 BABBITT: Thanks John.

1 CARSON: Thank you. 2 BABBITT: Yep bye. 3 End of conversation 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And, at that point they're getting 7 ready to move to Pinery Park Detachment and he wanted to 8 know, as it said, whether or not there was a spokesperson 9 identified? 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: Then, there's a note at 16:55: 12 "John Carson: We go in with a Court 13 Order and they run. We will tack it on 14 one (1) of the sheds. They will 15 eventually come and read it." 16 And, who was that discussion with? 17 A: That's not clear, but it's 18 probably Mark Wright. 19 Q: And, the car in the sand, there's a 20 note about a police monitor? 21 A: Yes, there was some discussion we 22 know if it -- if -- if there's a police monitor in it or 23 not. 24 Q: And, at this point in time back in 25 1995, could the radio communications of the police

1 offices -- of the Ontario Provincial Police be monitored 2 by scanners? 3 A: Yes, it could. It was what's 4 referred to as an analog system that was being utilized 5 at that time and it could be easily monitored with a 6 monitor that could be purchased quite easily at places 7 like Radio Shack. 8 Q: And, since that time has the 9 technology changed so that it's not easily monitored? 10 A: Now, in -- in southern Ontario, not 11 necessarily in northern Ontario, but in southern Ontario, 12 we use a -- a digital system, which is a much more 13 sophisticated system, technologically that requires a 14 special scanner that's not commercially available in 15 Canada. 16 Q: Is it available in the United States? 17 A: Yes, it is. 18 Q: Commercially? 19 A: Yes, it's a fairly expensive piece of 20 equipment, but it can be purchased. And normally in 21 Canada to monitor digital systems, you require 22 authorization from Industry Canada, however, if they're 23 purchased in the States and brought back, they can be 24 utilized without that authorization. 25 Q: But back in 1995 because the

1 communications were analog they could be monitored and 2 was that a concern? 3 A: Yes. It was a concern. 4 Q: And why was that? 5 A: Well clearly any transmission made by 6 the police to -- to any of the officers could be overhead 7 by anyone who chose to listen. 8 Q: Then at 17:00 hours: 9 "Janet Vandenberg brought in John 10 Carson an updated copy of affidavit." 11 And there's a reference to Inspector 12 Robertson. And whose affidavit -- do you recall today 13 whose affidavit was being referred to there? 14 A: I believe that was a draft from Tim 15 McCabe. 16 Q: For...? 17 A: For the affidavit for the injunction 18 the next morning. 19 Q: And was it your affidavit or Les 20 Kobayashi's affidavit or can -- do you recall? 21 A: It certainly wasn't mine. 22 Q: Okay. And then there's a note about 23 in the next paragraph: 24 "Stan Korosec, do you want Trevor 25 Richardson to go to a homeowner's

1 resident? 2 John Carson advises that he wants 3 Trevor Richardson to go and talk to 4 this individual and see if he has any 5 other information (individual who 6 called in car stuck in the sand)." 7 And what was that about? 8 A: We wanted the -- I was directing 9 Richardson to have someone interview the caller who 10 reported the vehicle stuck in the sand near Outer Drive. 11 Q: Okay. And then at the top of page 68 12 there's a note at 18:12. 13 "Briefing at 18:12 hours with command 14 members." 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And the -- could you just tell us 17 about this briefing? 18 A: That would be the briefing of the 19 supervisory team, management team, Sergeant Richardson, 20 Korosec, I don't believe Mark Wright was there at that 21 point in time, but the usual group whose been involved. 22 Q: And there's a note that: 23 "Don Bell went to find the car but it 24 was gone by the time he got there." 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And then there's a note about someone 2 who lived at the beach end of the Army Base. 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: Yes. And then they -- there's a 5 reference with respect to not being practical to bring in 6 cameras? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And then there's a note -- do you 9 recall what those cameras are; the ones that you couldn't 10 recall before? 11 A: I'm not sure but it probably would be 12 referring to cameras that work at -- in the dark, or 13 after dark. 14 Q: "John Carson: Are residents aware we 15 are in there? 16 Yes, they are aware." 17 And which residents were you referring to 18 at this point? 19 A: Well this -- this resident that this 20 discussion's taking place about is at the -- on the Outer 21 Drive side of the military base. And I believe my 22 question was trying to determine if the residents in that 23 area were aware of the OPP being in there and the patrols 24 and trying to -- as -- as it indicated, the one (1) 25 family live on the beach at the end of the Army Base and

1 comment they are paranoid. 2 And it was trying to ensure they 3 understood that we were close by and were able to allay 4 their concerns. 5 Q: And on the map that's -- that the 6 photograph that's up on the screen, Outer Drive runs 7 along the eastern boundary of the Army Camp? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: And then there's a little square that 10 one can see on this map, and is that the -- in the upper 11 right hand corner of the Army Camp, and is that where the 12 cottage is that you're referring to here are -- is the 13 area where the cottages are? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I -- I believe they're to the right 18 in this area here. 19 Q: So, that would be on the area west -- 20 east of the -- the notional boundary for the Army -- Army 21 Camp if it ran directly north to the -- to the water? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And, there is a square area with 24 cottages that would fit within the block of the Army 25 Camp if the Army Camp -- the border ran directly up to

1 the water; is that not correct, the northeast corner? 2 A: To tell you the truth, it's been so 3 long since I've been back there I can't confirm that. 4 Q: Okay. We've heard evidence that 5 there are cottages in that upper right-hand corner. 6 A: That -- that's possible. I've been 7 all through there, but it's been a long time. 8 Q: And, you have a note -- we'll come 9 back to that for a moment. There's a note: 10 "John Carson: Made to understand that 11 a Court Order -- Order is being sought. 12 Trevor: Safety factor. 13 John Carson: Safety issue can be 14 claimed out because [it says] he [I 15 take it, it means] we have already been 16 ambushed." 17 Right? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And, what's that refer to? 20 A: Well, I -- once again I was 21 cautioning the members involved who ensure that our 22 members are practising personal safety because I didn't 23 want to have a repeat of the circumstances of the night 24 before. 25 Q: And, the circumstances the night

1 before as you understood them? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And the reference to the court order? 4 A: It's just a -- that's just the point 5 that the court order was being sought and I suspect given 6 that Janet Vandenberg had just brought me the copy of the 7 affidavit I probably shared with them that it -- that it 8 was in process and that Mark Wright would be attending 9 the next morning. 10 Q: Okay. And then, there's a note: 11 "John Carson: Mark Wright gone to see 12 if there is a meeting tonight." 13 What's that refer to? 14 A: I'm not sure. 15 Q: Okay. And, was there a meeting with 16 respect -- a meeting of cottagers at or about this time? 17 A: In fact, there was. Mark Wright 18 basically stumbled onto a meeting of cottagers in the 19 parking lot near the TOC site that the officers were 20 using; the St. John Ambulance. There was a -- a number 21 of people in there who had assembled and were quite irate 22 about the circumstances that were occurring in the 23 Provincial Park. 24 In fact, as I understand it from Mark 25 Wright, they were very upset and discussing literally

1 walking -- marching into the Park and confronting the 2 occupiers. My understanding is that Wright convinced 3 them that we were doing what we could do, that we were 4 pursuing an injunction and that we had sufficient 5 personnel there to handle the situation and to -- he -- 6 he persuaded them not to -- to go to the Park. 7 Q: Okay. Then, there's a note: 8 "Stan Korosec notes the site of 9 protestors. Mark Wright called and 10 advised he saw nothing." 11 And, do you know what that refers to? 12 A: I'm not sure. 13 Q: Okay. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Then, there's a note: 18 "John Carson telling Stan Korosec to 19 brief his guys. Tell them they're 20 hanging on for an extra hour again 21 tomorrow." 22 And, is that the overnight ERT teams? 23 A: Yeah, correct, so that they're 24 prepared -- they -- they realize they'll stay on an 25 extra hour while the barriers are being placed.

1 Q: And then, Richardson was going off 2 duty, Mark Dew was going to be on duty and there's a 3 reference: 4 "Stan Korosec to cover operational 5 things with teams. 6 John Carson: Tells -- tell team 7 members to keep heads up. 8 Trevor Richardson: If something 9 happens, have it called in, and it can 10 be put on OMPPAC. 11 John Carson: If damaged cars, bring 12 them back here. Going to make media 13 event out of them." 14 And what's being referred to in this 15 paragraph? 16 A: It's just that it -- if there are 17 occurrences overnight that the information be reported 18 back to the team at Forest so that the occurrences could 19 be entered on to the OMPPAC occurrence system. 20 And the reference about damaged cars was 21 that we wanted to make sure that if -- if we did have 22 damaged vehicles, that the media had an opportunity to 23 see the situation we were faced so that clearly they 24 could understand what was happening. 25 Q: So, that if a car was damaged, you

1 wanted to show it to the media? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And then there's a note: 4 "Les Kobayashi heading off to Sarnia 5 tomorrow at 8:15, Court at 9:00 for 6 emergency injunction. Want this kept 7 quiet. Arranging for an extra Court 8 security. Hopefully an injunction 9 tomorrow." 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And at the top of the next page it 12 simply reports that you: 13 "Will brief Mark Wright tonight." 14 And at this point, the -- regarding the 15 injunction, Mark Wright is aware of the history of the 16 dealings with Ipperwash; is that correct? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And Inspector Linton was not there 19 yet? 20 A: Not yet. 21 Q: And then there's a note: 22 "Brad Seltzer and Lorne Smith had been 23 at out at Kettle Point collecting 24 information on their feelings of the 25 situation. Mark Wright and Marg Eve

1 down at Park but did not have much 2 luck." 3 And did you have any understanding at this 4 point, at almost 6:30 on September 6th, as to what Brad 5 Seltzer and Lorne Smith had found out? 6 We'd talked about it earlier before -- or 7 in the afternoon on September 6th, but what was your 8 understanding of how they were making out at this point? 9 A: I believe at this point in time, they 10 hadn't returned back yet -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- and so I didn't have any up to 13 date information at that time as to their progress. 14 Q: Okay. And the -- at some point on 15 the evening of -- in the late afternoon or early evening 16 of September 6th, did you learn that Brad Seltzer and 17 Lorne Smith had set up a meeting for the next day, with 18 one of the occupiers? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And when did you learn that, sir? 21 I may have missed it in the notes. 22 A: Actually, I think it's in the next 23 bullet, sir, at 18:37. 24 "Seltzer returned back from Kettle 25 Point and updated [myself] on the

1 information he's received from Kettle 2 Point." 3 Q: Okay. And what do you recall that he 4 said about that? 5 A: As I recall, he indicated that he had 6 made some inroads at Kettle Point and he felt he was 7 going to be able to establish some discussion the 8 following morning. 9 Q: And do you recall if he said who he 10 was going to meet with? 11 A: I can't, but I can assure you that 12 Sergeant Seltzer probably has notes that reflect that. 13 Q: Okay. And then back up to the note 14 above, the last note at the briefing. 15 "John Carson: Keep our heads up. 16 Trevor Richardson: Concerned about 17 checkpoint 'C'. 18 John Carson: Have night vision there. 19 Make sure they pay attention. 20 Stan Korosec advises they can bring 21 more in. 22 John advises, You are giving them 23 another target. 24 Stan Korosec: Use night vision and 25 keep an eye."

1 And what's being referred to there? 2 A: Well, that's just to caution the 3 members who are working the checkpoints near the Park to 4 be careful. They had night vision to monitor things, but 5 at the same time they had to be very careful that if they 6 were too close, that it creates the situation where they 7 become the target and I didn't want that to happen. 8 We were just trying to maintain the status 9 quo here and not get into any of the confrontations. 10 Q: Okay. And, if I could take you to 11 page 57 of Exhibit 410, the notes from the small scratch 12 pad, I think you're calling it, the Hilary(phonetic) 13 scratch pad? 14 A: Yes? 15 Q: And, there's a note at 18:15. Is 16 that a note with respect to the meeting that we've just 17 reviewed? 18 A: There's a note at 18:15 hours from 19 Sergeant Trevor Richardson about the -- the north edge of 20 the Base, about -- 21 Q: Yeah? 22 A: -- not being any access from that 23 area? 24 A: Yes? 25 Q: But, I -- I believe what we're --

1 well, I know we indicated earlier we were going to have 2 some personnel in there, but I -- I believe there was 3 also going to be some night vision used on the other side 4 of the Park as well. So, I'm -- I'm not sure which side 5 of the situation this is actually referring to in the 6 note that you just discussed. 7 Q: Okay. And then, there's something, 8 emergence -- 9 A: AG. Yeah, AG emergent injunction, 10 court security. 11 Q: And, does that refer to the meeting 12 we've just looked at, at 18:15? 13 I'm just trying to place when you made 14 these notes, sir. 15 A: It's probably. 16 Q: And then, the last note? 17 A: Mark -- oh, that was a request for 18 someone to get some additional clothing for him from his 19 residence. 20 Q: Oh, I see, with respect to going to 21 Court? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And, I wonder if you could tell us -- 24 and we're going to put up on the screen, the map of the 25 area, what your understanding of where the checkpoints

1 were and, perhaps, we could run the -- the photograph so 2 that we -- great. 3 There were -- at this point in time, at 4 approximately 6:30 on September 6th, four (4) 5 checkpoints? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: And, checkpoint 'D' was around the 8 Army Camp -- entrance to the Army Camp. Was it north of 9 the Army Camp or south of the Army Camp at this point in 10 time or do you recall? 11 A: It would be right near the Army Camp 12 entrance. Now, I -- I couldn't tell you if it was prior 13 to or just beyond, but it was right near the entrance of 14 the Base. 15 Q: So, it was -- checkpoint 'D' was 16 close to the entrance to the Base and, perhaps, we could 17 simply mark on this. 18 What we'll do is, when we're finished, 19 we'll make this an exhibit. Perhaps we can just reserve 20 an exhibit number for it. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-437. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-437? 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-437: Reserved 25

1 THE WITNESS: In -- in all likelihood, it 2 was -- in all -- all likelihood it was probably prior to 3 the gate entrance, but that's a guess on my part at best, 4 so... 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: Do you believe -- I -- all I'm -- 8 what I'm just trying to get now is what your best 9 recollection is of where they were. We'll get some other 10 evidence... 11 The -- I note that in project -- perhaps 12 this would be a good time for the morning break, it's 13 10:30. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good idea. 15 We'll take the morning break now. 16 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 17 for fifteen (15) minutes. 18 19 --- Upon recessing at 10:28 a.m. 20 --- Upon resuming at 10:47 a.m. 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 23 resumed. Please be seated. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:

1 Q: Before the break we were simply 2 trying to establish where the -- you understood the 3 checkpoints were at approximately 6:30 on the evening of 4 September the 6th and we started with 'D'. And there's 5 also in Exhibit P-474 which is a copy of Project Maple, 6 an outline of where the checkpoints had originally been 7 contemplated to be. 8 But we dealt with 'D' which was around the 9 entrance to the Army Camp. Then 'C' was north on Army 10 Camp Road near, I believe -- where was it along Army Camp 11 Road? 12 A: I believe we had moved it in the are 13 of Silver Birch subdivision. 14 Q: And -- 15 A: It's right at the crest of the hill. 16 It's about half way down. Probably in this general area. 17 Q: It had originally been farther north 18 at -- 19 A: Yes, it would be -- originally it was 20 at the last roadway in which I think is Sunny -- 21 Summerside or Sunnyside, something like that. 22 Q: And it may be -- perhaps we could 23 it's original position as C -- C-1 and that was at the -- 24 near Gratton (phonetic) Drive? 25 A: That's correct.

1 Q: And Gratton Drive is the last street 2 that's -- that's before East Parkway. But the campground 3 runs north from Gratton Drive and you thought it was at 4 the northern edge of Gratton Drive? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And perhaps we could -- it would be - 7 - I mean the northern edge of the trailer park near the 8 entrance? 9 A: Right. 10 Q: So that it would move farther north 11 at the original position? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: In the area -- approximately in the 16 area that -- where the laser beam is on, would that be 17 approximately correct? 18 A: Your first -- it's actually the other 19 way. It's up this way. 20 Q: No. But I'm trying to establish 21 where it was originally. 22 A: Oh, originally it -- it would have 23 been at Gratton Drive. 24 Q: At Gratton Drive? 25 A: Right.

1 Q: Oh, okay. Okay. 2 A: And then it was moved back closer to 3 the Highway 21. 4 Q: And but was it moved back after 6:30? 5 We will see something -- 6 A: On the -- on the 6th? 7 Q: On the 6th. 8 A: No, it was moved back through the 9 night of the 5th. 10 Q: Through the night of the 5th it was 11 moved back so on -- during the day on the 6th, you 12 believe that the checkpoint was at -- closer to Clemens? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And is there -- there's a trail park 15 at that intersection? 16 A: Yes, I believe that's Silver Birch 17 subdivision. 18 Q: Okay. And perhaps we could mark that 19 with C-2? 20 Then checkpoint 'A' was up on East 21 Parkway? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: And if we go -- do a highlight -- 24 enlarge East Parkway and... 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 4 Q: And it was closer to Army Camp Road? 5 A: Yes, originally I was of the 6 impression it was right near the junction here, right 7 where the first cottage would be, but I suspect it was 8 actually farther back in this area near the curve. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: You originally thought it was closer 13 to the actual intersection of -- where East Parkway turns 14 into Army Camp Road? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: But you believe on the eve -- by the 17 evening of September 6th, it was back by the curve? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And perhaps we could mark that 'A' 20 and perhaps A-1? 21 And the cottage that you were concerned 22 about that we spoke about yesterday, with respect to the 23 picnic tables, is that the cottage that is the first 24 cottage that one can see on this aerial photograph? 25 A: That's correct.

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: You initially thought that the 4 checkpoint was closer to -- at the intersection and then 5 was moved back to A-1? 6 A: That was my sense of it, yes. 7 Q: So, that on the evening of September 8 -- at 6:30 on September 6th, the checkpoint was at, you 9 believe, A-1? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And then if we go west on East 12 Parkway Drive towards the Ministry of Natural Resources 13 parking lot, I wonder if you could highlight that, Mr. 14 Emery, for us. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And the portion that was used during 19 this incident by the Ontario Provincial Police was the 20 part of the parking lot that was marked off, the part we 21 see on the easternmost part of the MNR parking lot? 22 A: As I recall, the St. John Ambulance 23 vehicle was in this general area. 24 Q: And perhaps we could put a marker 25 there; St. John's Ambulance.

1 And it's in the southeast quadrant of the 2 parking lot, approximately? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And then while we're at it here, 5 later on during the evening of September 6th and we'll 6 come to it, the TRU team truck was stationed in the 7 parking lot and can you recall today, approximately, 8 where the TRU team truck was? 9 A: It would have been in this general 10 vicinity right here. 11 Q: A little bit north of the St. John's 12 Ambulance location? 13 A: Yes, the driveway cuts across the 14 center of the parking lot and I believe we were on either 15 side of that driveway or very close proximity to that 16 driveway. 17 Q: So it should be called a TRU -- and 18 we'll label it, "TRU team TOC" T-O-C? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And were the St. John's ambulance 21 location, perhaps we should mark that, "ERT TOC." Is 22 that a better description? 23 A: That's fair. 24 Q: And, it would be E.R.T.? 25 A: Correct.

1 Q: TOC? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: It's -- then, if we could go -- bring 4 the image up farther west on East Parkway to the 5 intersection of the Ipperwash Road and Ipper -- and East 6 Parkway Drive, can you tell us of where your 7 understanding checkpoint 'B' was, originally? 8 A: Checkpoint 'B'? 9 Q: 'B' 10 A: It should have been right at the... 11 Q: This is East Parkway; it runs east 12 towards the MNR parking lot. And this is Ipperwash Road 13 running down from -- 14 A: Correct. It should have been right 15 in here, right at that junction. 16 Q: And, we'll call that 'D' -- 17 checkpoint 'D'? 18 A: That was 'B', I believe. 19 Q: I mean, excuse me, 'B'. I'm getting 20 my 'B's' and 'D's' mixed up. 21 I'm sorry, Deputy Carson, it's 'B'. 22 A: Thank you. 23 Q: Now, can I just go back to Cindy 24 Elder for a minute? 25 Cindy Elder called at approximately four

1 o'clock on the afternoon of September the 6th and it's 2 fair to say, is it not, Inspector -- I mean, Deputy 3 Carson, that at that time you still had not succeeded in 4 making any contact with the occupiers? 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: And, you were, at that point, at 7 approximately four o'clock waiting for Marg Eve and Mark 8 Wright to return from their visit to the -- to the Park? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And, Cindy Elder was -- had called 11 you earlier on in August, I believe, to offer assistance 12 or to talk to you? 13 A: Yes, I spoke to her in August. 14 Q: And, why didn't you call her back on 15 the afternoon of September 6th when she was the only 16 person, up to that point, who had offered assistance? 17 A: Well, there was a couple of issues. 18 First of all, I was very busy as I 19 indicated to Staff Sergeant Drummelsmith at that 20 particular moment and I certainly indicated I'd get back 21 to her. 22 The second part is, as I recall she was 23 from the Manitoulin area, and what I really needed at 24 that particular point in time was somebody local who 25 could establish something, like, right now. And quite

1 frankly, I'm not sure what our -- how our discussion went 2 originally in August, but I -- I didn't recall -- I don't 3 recall today that she had made any contact in the 4 Military Base at that time that provided any specific 5 help at that time. 6 Q: Back in August? 7 A: Back in August? 8 Q: Yes...? 9 A: So, while I certainly wanted to find 10 out what she had to offer, I didn't have any sense that 11 from our previous discussion that she could do something 12 imminently for me, maybe a little more longer term, but 13 in the short-term, I'd get back to her as soon as I 14 could, which at that point in time, I felt the next 15 morning probably my best guess. 16 Q: Okay. And, there was no other reason 17 not to call her back right then in the afternoon. 18 A: No. If -- if I would have time and 19 not been busy I -- I would have taken the call, quite 20 frankly. 21 Q: Okay. And as you said to Mr. 22 Drummelsmith, you had many calls, coming in and out, on 23 the afternoon of September the 6th? 24 A: It was a very busy time. 25 Q: And if we could move ahead at 18:37,

1 I asked you about Mark Wright and: 2 "Mark Wright gone to see if there was a 3 meeting tonight." 4 And the -- then I talked about a meeting 5 with the cottagers. 6 The meeting that Mark Wright went to, do 7 you know what meeting he was to go -- was going to at the 8 reference at 18:12, on page 68? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I'm not sure which meeting that 13 particular meeting was, or where exactly it was, but I'm 14 sure that he could share that with you. But what I do 15 know is, as he encountered the people who were assembled 16 at the MNR parking lot, he literally stumbled onto that 17 meeting. 18 That wasn't the meeting that he had 19 planned to -- to... 20 Q: To -- to attend? 21 A: Right. So when I spoke of his 22 interaction with the local residents who were discussing 23 marching into the Park, that was -- that occurred by 24 happenstance. 25 Q: And that was at the MNR parking lot?

1 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: And then there's a note 18:37 hours: 3 "Mark Wright is at LIMA 2 talking to 4 Mayor Fred Thomas." 5 LIMA 2 was the name assigned to the ERT 6 sergeant in charge of the communications at the ERT TOC 7 centre in the -- the Ministry of Natural Resources 8 parking lot? 9 A: That's correct, sir. 10 Q: And LIMA 1 -- 11 A: Would be the sergeant, in charge of 12 ERT operations, who was actually in the command post in 13 Forest. 14 Q: And when you're in the command post 15 in Forest, when you were in that part of the trailer that 16 you used, the back part of the trailer, could you hear 17 the communications between the sergeant manning the -- I 18 take it he was manning the radio? 19 A: Right, well assisting there. There 20 would be a civilian radio operator, and the ERT sergeant, 21 both working there. 22 Q: And when someone called for LIMA 1, 23 who would they get? The civilian radio operator or the 24 sergeant? 25 A: Either of them could answer the

1 radio. 2 Q: And could you hear the radio when you 3 were in your part of the trailer? 4 A: It was possible if I took time to 5 listen. 6 Q: But you had to stop and listen to -- 7 A: Yeah. I mean I -- I could hear the 8 chatter going on in the other end of the trailer but I 9 would have to stop and pay attention in order to actually 10 pick up the -- the discussion. But I could make out what 11 was being said if -- if I chose to do that. 12 Q: Okay. And so it was reported to you 13 that Mark Wright was talking to Mayor Fred Thomas at the 14 MNR parking lot, and that's where the meeting was with 15 respect to the -- where the cottagers were? 16 A: That's right, sir. 17 Q: And you understood as a result of the 18 meeting that the cottagers were not going to go down to 19 the Park? 20 A: My understand was Detective Sergeant 21 Wright had persuaded them not to do that. 22 Q: Then there's a note: 23 "Kent Skinner advised John -- Carson to 24 inform Inspector Linton to not page us 25 from these phones, page us from the

1 Detachment phone." 2 And do you have any recollection today why 3 Kent Skinner asked you to do that? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And what was that? 6 A: It's a matter of the technology as 7 I'm sure you recall as we've listened to these 8 telephones. When you hear someone keying in the phone 9 number, and you hear the clicking sound of the phone 10 being cycled through with each key punch entry, the 11 pagers respond to the -- the -- the push button phone 12 tone. 13 So most of your phones have a different 14 tone with each number. The trailer -- the command 15 trailer didn't have that capability to have tones, so it 16 -- it sounds like a rotary dial is taking place. 17 You had to go into the Detachment to use a 18 phone that would actually have touch tone capability. 19 Q: So that you needed touch tone 20 capability to communicate with the TRU team pagers? 21 A: Well, the -- the TRU team pagers and 22 -- and any of the pagers where, if you left a phone -- 23 like, there's -- there's two (2) ways of paging someone. 24 You can page them and leave your number by keying it in 25 on a touch tone phone, or some you can leave a voice

1 message, some are capable of both. 2 If we were going to do a call out for TRU 3 there's one (1) number that we can call that does a group 4 page, but that group page has to be done from a touch 5 tone phone. 6 Q: I see. So that -- 7 A: Okay. 8 Q: -- the Detachment phones were touch 9 tone phones, but not in the command trailer? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Then at 18:42 there's a meeting, 12 Inspector Linton and Inspector Carson, that's you, Les 13 Kobayashi, and Marcel Beaubien? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And if I read these notes correctly, 16 that meeting went on for about twenty-five (25) minutes 17 until approximately 7:05 on page 71? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And can you tell us a little bit -- 20 first of all, why was Mr. Beaubien there in the command 21 trailer? 22 A: Well, he attended the command trailer 23 and he was there to discuss the issues as -- as he knew 24 it in regards to his constituents. 25 Q: Yes? And tell us a little bit about

1 this meeting from what you can recall. 2 A: Well, he attended the trailer and 3 Linton and Kobayashi were there as well, and he indicated 4 he had sent a fax to the Premier, and that he was looking 5 for a phone call in -- in regards to the contents of that 6 fax. 7 I informed him that there was a -- an 8 injunction going forward tomorrow morning at nine 9 o'clock, and he indicated he was aware of that, and he 10 wondered if there was anything we could do. 11 And I indicated to him that things were 12 moving towards the Court Order and -- and explained how 13 that works in relation to potential criminal charges. 14 And he raised the point that the property 15 owners are very concerned, they're frustrated, and feel 16 that they are not being treated equally, and I reinforced 17 that this is not a land claim issue, there's been no 18 legal claim to the -- to the Park. 19 And Kobayashi indicated that the -- the 20 property had been researched, and there was no burial 21 ground on that property. 22 Linton was there, he enquired if there was 23 any -- any commentary back from the Solicitor General and 24 Beaubien indicated that they had been meeting today. 25 And I indicated to Beaubien the background

1 of what had taken place; that we had Members in the Park, 2 and when the -- when the occupiers came into the Park we 3 had been outnumbered, and that the officers had been 4 swarmed, and why we had left the Park for safety reasons. 5 Q: And there's a note "Les Kobayashi was 6 present when the natives took over". 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: He was there in the Park? 9 A: Yes, he was. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: And I indicated that there were women 12 and children there, and that puts us in a very awkward 13 position; we're not just dealing with occupiers, but 14 we're dealing with women and -- and children. 15 And I certainly tried to reassure Beaubien 16 that we did appreciate -- understand the concerns of the 17 residents, and that we had approximately thirty (30) 18 people working at any given time, and that we had our 19 officers out talking to the residents to make sure they 20 knew we were there, and we had foot patrols being 21 completed around the area and, again, reinforced that the 22 issue of safety is important. 23 Beaubien indicated he didn't mind taking 24 controversy if the situation can't be handled by the 25 police services, something has to be done to handle the

1 situation. 2 And I again reassured him that we wanted 3 to get it resolved. We don't want anyone to get hurt. 4 We want to do everything we can to -- to stress that 5 point, nobody gets hurt. 6 I also stated, that you know, we had a lot 7 of good people working. We had two (2) ERT teams on the 8 ground and the officers were doing a good job. 9 Linton suggested to Mr. Beaubien that we 10 certainly appreciated his efforts, that -- and Beaubien 11 indicated he had been talking to Chief Chris Coles and 12 suggested that the MNR contact Coles so they're aware of 13 the situation, which -- which we certainly had been doing 14 anyway. 15 In that discussion around that, I pointed 16 out to Mr. Beaubien, you know, that once the Park's 17 clear, what happens after that? 18 And, his concern was about the residents