1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 18th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )    (np)
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )    (np)
  5  Katherine Hensel  )    (np)
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein )  (np)      The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )   (np)     George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    )            Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena  (Army Camp)
 18  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stony
 19  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 20  Colleen Johnson  )   (np)
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )              Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Susan Freeborn   )   (np)
 25  Michelle Pong    )   (np)

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )              Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )    (np)
  8  
  9  Ian Smith        )              Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )
 11  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 12  Jacqueline Horvat )
 13  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 14  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 15  
 16  Mark Sandler       )            Ontario Provincial 
 17  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 18  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 19  
 20  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 21  Karen Jones      )   (np)       Police Association &
 22  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 23  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
 24  Annie Leeks      )   (np)
 25  Jennifer Gleitman )

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )              Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  Clem Nabigon     )   (np)
  7  Adriel Weaver     )   (np)       Student-at-Law
  8  
  9  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
 10  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 11  
 12  William Horton   )              Chiefs of Ontario
 13  Matthew Horner   )
 14  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 15  
 16  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 17  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 18  Megan Mackey     )
 19  Erin Tully       )   (np)
 20  
 21  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 22  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 23  Melissa Panjer   )
 24  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 25

1 2 TABLE OF CONTENTS 3 Page 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed 7 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 269 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-430 Press release dated September 5, 4 1995, at 2:00 a.m. 13 5 P-431 Press release dated September 6 5/'95 at 17:25 hours. 14 7 P-432 CD ROM of photos 0138, 0140, 0146, 8 0148,0149, 0150, 0151, 0159 and 9 images 24 and 35. 42 10 P-433 Document number 1009044. OPP press 11 release Sept 06/'95. 61 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 7 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed: 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 morning. 11 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 13 Commissioner. Good morning, Deputy Carson. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 15 morning, everybody. 16 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Before we begin, I 18 thought we would, perhaps, do some housekeeping -- deal 19 with some housekeeping issues. I will, I anticipate, be 20 the balance of the week with Deputy Carson and -- today 21 and tomorrow. Then, we will sit the week of May 30th; 22 we've got May 30th, May 31st and June 1st and 2nd, which 23 we will do Deputy Carson's cross-examination. 24 Mr. Sandler, and he told us about this a 25 long time ago, has to be in Federal Court on June 6th,

1 7th, 8th and 9th and a long time ago he had asked us to 2 avoid scheduling the senior police officers on those four 3 (4) days. Initially I thought that it, perhaps, would 4 not be a problem; it is going to be a problem given the - 5 - the way the schedule -- how we proceeded. 6 And so I wanted to alert everyone we will 7 try to call, during the week of June the 6th, members of 8 the Interministerial -- people who attended the 9 Interministerial Committee Meeting and we haven't 10 identified exactly who is going to be there during those 11 four (4) days. 12 We had hoped to start with Ms. Julie Jai, 13 but she's not available as I understand it the first two 14 (2) days. So, I'll alert everybody as soon as I can 15 about who's going to be on the 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th. 16 If we don't finish Deputy Carson on the 17 week of May 30th then he will proceed again on the week 18 of June the 20th. So, I just wanted to alert everyone to 19 that. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: Now yesterday we were talking about-- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a

1 minute, Mr. Millar, we have Mr. Falconer. 2 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Good morning, Mr. 3 Commissioner. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Thank you. Good 8 morning, Mr. Commissioner. 9 Mr. Commissioner, I -- I just -- I heard 10 what Mr. Millar said and I appreciated the information in 11 terms of Mr. Millar's point of view. If -- not if, when 12 we are in the middle of cross-examination the week of May 13 30th, it's my anticipation frankly from certainly 14 speaking to my colleagues that we will not by a long shot 15 have finished with Deputy Carson which would mean his 16 cross-examination would be interrupted. We would start 17 another witness. 18 The difficulty is that other witness would 19 unlikely to be finished that following week which would 20 have us two (2) witnesses in the air. And with great 21 respect, I'm not saying we can solve all this now, but 22 certainly from my perspective that's a problem. 23 I understand Mr. Sandler's difficulties 24 scheduling and I completely respect it having many of the 25 same difficulties. I'm simply suggesting perhaps the --

1 the worst case scenario might be to consider not sitting 2 to avoid having two (2) witnesses in the air and having 3 cross-examinations seriously affected. 4 So, anyway, I raise this because what I 5 don't expect to have happen after this lengthy 6 examination-in-chief the cross-examination goes very 7 quickly; I would be surprised with great respect. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 9 Mr. Falconer. I appreciate your alerting us to that and 10 we'll be alive to it. Thank you. Thank you kindly. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, I expect that we 12 will call witnesses that will -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Be able to 14 complete. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- be able to 16 complete. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: But the best 18 laid plans are often -- 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure, the best laid 20 plans are often gone astray and we don't want the issue. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We have one (1) 23 witness in that -- up in the air right now partly because 24 of his schedule and partly because of Mr. Roland's 25 schedule. So we don't want to have --

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: More than we 2 need. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- more than we need. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 Thank you. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: Now the -- if we could go to Exhibit 9 426, P-426, we were at page 40 yesterday dealing with the 10 briefing at 16:45. And the -- this is a briefing for 11 your management team at 16:45 -- was -- do you recall if 12 Dale Linton attended this meeting? 13 I note there's a reference to him at page 14 42. I mean -- excuse me, at page 41, 1702 hours, 15 Inspector Linton briefed by Inspector Carson. 16 A: I believe he's just coming in -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: -- at approximately 17:00 or 5:00 19 p.m. So he -- he may not have been there in the earlier 20 discussions at 16:45. 21 Q: And there's a reference to, Detective 22 Sergeant Wright advised that members have been briefed. 23 Also a press release has been set out also Mark Wright 24 talked to Inspector Robinson and Inspector Robinson was 25 the officer tasked with getting you a helicopter?

1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And as we're speaking about press 3 releases, I wonder if -- in front of you there's a red 4 folder and I gathered together some of the press 5 releases. 6 And the -- if we could take a look at the 7 first two (2) press releases, Deputy Carson, the first 8 one is dated September 5th, 1995, at 2:00 a.m. and it's 9 Inquiry Document 1009040? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And, is this the first press release 12 that was issued by the Ontario Provincial Police or does 13 it appear to be the first press release? 14 There was a reference in the logger tape - 15 - the scribe notes to a press that we looked at -- talked 16 about earlier in the morning of September 5th and I 17 believe this is -- must be the press release that went 18 out around that time? 19 A: I would agree, yes. 20 Q: Perhaps we could mark this press 21 release dated September 5, 1995, at 2:00 a.m. as the next 22 exhibit? 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-430, Your Honour. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-430. 25

1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-430: Press release dated September 2 5, 1995, at 2:00 a.m. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: Then, the next press release, which 6 is 109039 is -- has a date on the top of September 5th, 7 1995, 1009039. 8 And there's a fax cover sheet or a fax 9 indicator on it that it was sent September 5/'95 at 17:25 10 hours, which would be 5:25? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And, this would appear to be the 13 press release that's being referred to by Detective 14 Sergeant Mark Wright at this meeting? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And, this is simply an update as to 17 what is happening with respect to the occupation? 18 A: That's correct and it's identifying 19 the charge -- charge subjects as a result of the incident 20 in the Park the evening earlier. 21 Q: And, the press release indicates that 22 checkpoints at -- third paragraph: 23 "Checkpoints have been set up at the 24 junction of Highway 21 and Army Camp 25 Road, Ravenswood and Middle Road and

1 Parkway Drive. Only local residents 2 are permitted into the area at present. 3 The situation is contained and there's 4 no danger to the public." 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And, at that point in time, at 5:25 7 on September 5th, is this accurate when it says only 8 local residents were permitted into the area? 9 A: Probably. For the most part, yes. 10 Q: But others -- others were permitted 11 in if they... 12 A: They had a reasonable reason for 13 being there. 14 Q: Yeah. And, perhaps we could mark 15 this the next exhibit as Exhibit P-431. 16 THE REGISTRAR: 431. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-431: Press release dated September 19 5/'95 at 17:25 hours. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: Then, we'll come back to the other 23 ones later, they're dated September 6th, Deputy Carson. 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: Then, I note at the bottom of the

1 page, there's a note: 2 "Inspector Carson updated Chief Coles 3 that Marcel Beaubien has contacted the 4 Premier. There is to be a press release 5 by the Solicitor General stating that 6 this is not an Indian issue; it is an 7 MNR and a provincial issue. The John 8 Carson advised that the next meeting to 9 be held at 8:15 hours before new crowd 10 comes in." 11 Now, do you recall the telephone 12 discussion with Chief Coles -- I take it it was a 13 telephone discussion, was he there the afternoon of 14 September 5th? 15 A: No, no. He wasn't there in the 16 afternoon. It would have required to be a telephone 17 call. 18 Q: And, we don't have a note -- a 19 transcript of that call and do you know where you made 20 that call from? 21 A: No, sir, I'm not -- I'm not sure. 22 Q: And, do you recall anything today 23 about the call? 24 A: Only the fact from the notes I -- I 25 did brief him. I don't have any independent recollection

1 of the discussion. 2 Q: Okay. Then there's a note at the pa 3 -- top of page 41: 4 "Inspector Linton relieving Inspector 5 Carson. Inspector Carson wants every - 6 - to ensure that everyone is taking 7 over for them for the night is aware of 8 their responsibilities for the evening. 9 Be back for 7:00 hours tomorrow 10 morning." 11 And where it says every, I believe it 12 should read everyone to ensure. And you're simply asking 13 your -- telling your people the management, that 14 Inspector Linton will be taking over for the night and he 15 wants to make -- you wanted to make sure that everyone 16 briefed their replacement as to what was expected of 17 them. 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And then at 17:02 there's a note: 20 "Inspector Linton briefed by Inspector 21 Carson." 22 And what -- do you recall anything of that 23 briefing? 24 A: Not from a personal recollection, no. 25 Q: And at 17:08 there's a note:

1 "Inspector Linton advised Inspector 2 Carson that he had talked to Tom 3 Bressette earlier in the day and that 4 he has a concern about the cottages at 5 the end of Outer Drive. 6 Also that he feels that Pinery Park may 7 be next." 8 Do you recall anything about this 9 discussion with Inspector Linton, Inspect -- Deputy 10 Carson? 11 A: I don't -- I don't have a 12 recollection of the discussion but I -- I know that there 13 was concern about the potential issue around the cottages 14 at the end of Parkway Drive that we were aware of. 15 Q: And this refers to the cottages at 16 the end of Outer Drive? 17 A: Yes. And there was concern also 18 raised, I believe, by Mayor Thomas about patrols of Outer 19 Drive as well and the residents in that general area. 20 Q: And can you recall today the 21 reference -- perhaps we could go to for a moment to 22 Exhibit P-427, the handwritten notes? 23 The handwritten notes say at page 446: 24 "Inspector Linton talked to Tom 25 Bressette. Has a concern about cottages

1 at end of Outer Drive. Feel Pinery 2 Park is next." 3 Whose concern -- I'm trying to identify 4 who was concerned about the cottages at the end of Outer 5 Drive and with respect to Pinery Park; do you recall? 6 Was it Inspector Linton or Chief 7 Bressette? 8 A: Well my sense of it was there was 9 concern as a result of the information he received from 10 Chief Bressette. 11 Q: Okay. The concern by Lin -- 12 Inspector Linton? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Okay. Then there's a note that at 15 1727 hours Les Kobayashi and -- and Vervoort are reported 16 that Peter Sturdy is working on a twenty-four (24) hour 17 affidavit. Needs to know who is in the Park. 18 Kobayashi gave him the names that he is 19 aware of and you instructed Mark Wright to give the names 20 of the people at the Park to Kobayashi; is that correct? 21 A: Yes, sir. 22 Q: And at this point in time, at 5:25, I 23 take it from the next note that the helicopter is still 24 not up in the air? 25 A: I believe that's accurate, yes.

1 Q: And then at -- the next note says 2 16:07, it should be 18:07 hours? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And that's reflected for My Friends 5 in the handwritten notes. The -- and at 16:07 in the 6 second paragraph there's a note, the first paragraph: 7 "Inspector Carson stated that Constable 8 Evans and Detective Constable Speck 9 have gone up in the helicopter. 10 Detective Sergeant Wright states, 11 helicopter is up in the air with 12 Detective Constable Speck. And 13 Constable Evans also states that 14 Inspector Robertson is getting the ERT 15 members Nomex underwear. He also has a 16 list of Indian speaking OPP officers if 17 they are required." 18 And so it's at this point in time at six 19 o'clock on September 5th, approximately, that the 20 helicopter arrives and is up in the air over the Park? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: Then, on page 42, there's a note: 23 "Sergeant Seltzer advised that there 24 will be no negotiators overnight. 25 Constable Dowell can be here in two (2)

1 hours if he's required. Sergeant Eve 2 will be here at 08:00 hours, 06 3 Sept/'95. 4 Constable Vince George has been 5 contacted, he is going to think about 6 our request. Make it clear to him that 7 he is not being pressured to be a 8 negotiator. Going to switch shift. 9 Will be coming in in the morning." 10 And, the -- with respect to the 11 negotiations, the request, as we've seen, to Constable 12 Vince George was to act as -- to introduce the 13 negotiators, as I recall? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: Now, what about the -- at this point 16 in time, asking Chief Bressette if he or anyone on the 17 Council could assist with respect to starting 18 negotiations? 19 A: It was very clear to me in 20 discussions with Chief Bressette and as a result of the 21 information that other people who had discussions with 22 him that there -- there was certainly not a very 23 harmonious relationship, I guess, with the occupiers and 24 the Kettle Point Band; some of that had -- had been well 25 articulated in media coverage; some of the statements

1 made by the Band Council in relation to the activities at 2 the Military Base. And that didn't seem to be a viable 3 option that would work. 4 It appeared that even earlier in the 5 month, the Grand Chief had been in the area in August and 6 there -- 7 Q: That's Mr. -- Chief Ovide Mercredi? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: And that, despite his status 11 nationwide and his influence, there didn't appear to be 12 any appetite for a discussion with the occupiers. I got 13 -- I certainly had the impression that Mr. Mercredi and 14 Chief Bressette would not be welcome at -- at the Park or 15 at Camp Ipperwash, particularly. 16 Q: And, what about on the evening of 17 September 5, Miles Bressette and engaging the police 18 officers from Kettle and Stony Point? 19 A: Well, from the ongoing issues we had 20 there, Miles Bressette certainly made it clear that he 21 didn't want his officers working off of Kettle Point and 22 that precluded my ability to request them to go the 23 Military Base or the Park and I didn't -- I didn't feel 24 given Miles' ongoing position around that issue and his 25 relationship with our officers, generally, that he would

1 be supportive or assist us in any way, particularly in 2 this type of incident. 3 Q: And, so that's why you didn't ask? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And, you didn't ask him on September 6 6th? 7 A: No, I didn't. 8 Q: And, what about the first -- in 19 -- 9 September 5th, 1995, there was a First Nations policing 10 branch at the Ontario Provincial Police? 11 A: Yes, there was. 12 Q: And, did you consider asking the 13 First Nations policing branch for assistance with respect 14 to negotiations? 15 A: No, I didn't -- I didn't make any 16 request there. I didn't, quite frankly, I didn't have 17 any knowledge of anybody at the First Nations branch that 18 would have such a relationship that they would be -- 19 would know the individuals involved or be able to 20 establish dialogue with the occupiers or that the 21 occupiers, in fact, would -- would know who they were. 22 Q: And, from what we've seen with 23 Constable Vince George and Lorne Smith, you were 24 attempting to engage people who knew the community and 25 knew the occupiers?

1 A: Correct. Whether it's Vince George, 2 George Speck, and there -- there are many others at 3 Forest. There was certainly a local knowledge and 4 relationships that had been established and I felt they 5 had a reasonable chance, if anybody did, of establishing 6 some dialogue and would not been seen as threatening, as 7 -- as police officers. 8 Q: And on the -- at six o'clock on 9 September the 6th, had you or any -- did -- were you 10 aware of any offers of assistance by -- on September 5th 11 from the assembly of First Nations? 12 A: No office -- no offers had been 13 brought to my attention. 14 Q: And the Chiefs of Ontario? 15 A: Nothing at all. 16 Q: And the Union of Ontario Indians? 17 A: None. 18 Q: And on September 6th, with respect to 19 -- prior to call from Chief Mercredi at approximately 20 11:30 on September 6th, had -- did you receive any offers 21 of assistance from anyone at the assembly of First 22 Nations? 23 A: No, sir. 24 Q: And did you call the Assembly of 25 First Nations yourself?

1 A: No, I didn't. 2 A: What about the Chiefs of Ontario? 3 A: There was no dialogue there, either. 4 Q: And the Union of Ontario Indians? 5 A: No, sir. Now, the only call I did 6 get, I did get one (1) call from well, the call didn't 7 get through. There was -- there was an offer made by an 8 individual, I believe the name was Cindy Elder from, I 9 believe, it's the Manitoulin area. 10 But at the particular time the call came 11 in, I was extremely busy, not able to take the phone 12 call. And I had indicated I would call that person back 13 but I didn't really have an opportunity to make that 14 connection and -- but a call did come in with an offer. 15 Q: Okay. We'll come to that, that's the 16 one (1) call you received. It was from Cindy Elder? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: Now, the -- the note indicates as 19 well farther down, that: 20 "Sergeant Korosec was providing five 21 (5) sets -- had obtained five (5) sets 22 of night visions glasses and they're 23 arranging Outer Drive patrol. They're 24 being well received." 25 Do you have any recollection of what that

1 refers to, "they're being well received"? 2 A: I'm going to make the assumption that 3 the discussion is there are patrols occurring on Outer 4 Drive and feedback from the public is the -- are 5 appreciating the visibility. 6 Q: Okay. And then there's a note: 7 "Inspector Carson wants people with 8 night vision glasses to be out and 9 around Outer Drive to get a sense of 10 what's going on in that area. 11 Detective Sergeant Wright suggests that 12 eight (8) officers be put at Highway 21 13 as a fear First Nations may be bolder 14 tonight. 15 Inspector Carson stated that if the 16 First Nations get lippy, don't take too 17 much. If they become pushy, arrest 18 them and get them out of there." 19 And what's that refer to? 20 Q: Well that refers to, technically, the 21 behaviour that was experienced on the evening of the 4th, 22 that if they get into a confrontation, don't -- don't be 23 wasting a lot of time. 24 Simply, if there is a criminal offence, 25 make the arrest and -- and move the person out of there

1 quickly. 2 Q: And were you referring to outside the 3 Army Camp and the Park or inside the Army Camp and the 4 Park? 5 A: No, this is -- this is definitely 6 outside. 7 Q: Okay. And then there's a note at the 8 bottom -- 9 A: If I could just speak just for a 10 moment, just back to the issue of the night vision and 11 what's going on in the area. 12 I wanted to get some sense, with the 13 assistance of night vision equipment, if there -- there 14 had been a concern raised by Mayor Thomas and the concern 15 for patrols in Outer Drive and then obviously the 16 information that had come in from -- through Chief 17 Bressette about Outer Drive residents, using the night 18 vision equipment to give us some sense as to if there was 19 activity going on at night, that the residents had reason 20 to be concerned or not. And so we were trying to be a 21 little proactive here, to try to determine exactly what 22 was going on over there. 23 Q: And do you recall today what was 24 being looked at -- the border -- the border, the 25 northeast border of the Army Camp runs on the west side

1 and on the south side of those cottages? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And do you -- were the police 4 officers patrolling that border to the extent that they 5 could to see what was happening? 6 A: Yes. They were patrolling through 7 that area and I don't believe there was any activity of 8 any significant concern that was raised. 9 Q: And were they also patrolling on the 10 beach with the night vision glasses in that part? 11 A: I'm not sure. I would have to check 12 individual officers activities to see if they were 13 actually, like, say on foot on the beach. But I don't 14 believe they were on the beach on that side to the base. 15 Q: And in any event you don't recall 16 today receiving any indication that there was any 17 activity on the Outer Drive side of the Army Camp? 18 A: No, sir. 19 Q: Now, Detective -- I mean, Deputy 20 Carson, if there's as we go through these notes which in 21 affect are your notes, if you want -- if there's 22 something that I don't ask you about that you want to 23 tell us about, please do that because I'm not going 24 through every entry. I'm trying to highlight some of the 25 entries so.

1 A: Thank you. 2 Q: Then at the bottom, there's a note: 3 "Sergeant -- Staff Sergeant Dennis 4 advised Sergeant Skinner on the flow of 5 paperwork for his TRU team members. 6 Sergeant Skinner states that he has ten 7 (10) guys stating at the Pinery with 8 ERT team members. 9 Inspector Carson asked Sergeant Skinner 10 if he brought the video printer. He 11 stated he did not. Inspector Carson 12 requested that someone go get it 13 tonight and bring it to the office." 14 Apparently I said TRU team members. I 15 said ERT but -- perhaps I'll start again. 16 "Staff Sergeant Dennis advised Sergeant 17 Skinner on the flow of paperwork for 18 his TRU team members." 19 That's simply what had to do with respect 20 to -- 21 A: Just administrative. 22 Q: -- meaning the administrative 23 requirements. They are always with us. Then: 24 "Sergeant Skinner states that he has 25 ten (10) guys staying at Pinery with

1 the ERT -- with ERT team members." 2 And so there were ERT team people at the 3 Pinery, that's where they -- some of them were staying; 4 is that not correct? 5 A: Some of them. 6 Q: Yes. And the ten (10) TRU team 7 members were staying at the Pinery as well. 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: You wanted the video printer and I 10 think you explained to us earlier, the video printer 11 permitted a still to be printed off a video taken by a 12 video camera? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: And that's why you wanted that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And you had asked -- you asked 17 someone to get it tonight? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: Then if I could take you to page 450 20 of Exhibit 427, there's a note you -- there's a note that 21 says: 22 "Sergeant Skinner is to attend command 23 post meetings." 24 And you wanted Sergeant Skinner to be part 25 of the command team as it's noted in the handwritten

1 notes? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And then it's attributed to you: 4 "Heat from political side. Made strong 5 comments in the House [and then] court 6 injunction moving along." 7 And the scribe notes include: 8 "Advise members that court injunction 9 is moving along." 10 The scribe notes as typed do not include: 11 "Heat from political side. Made strong 12 comments in the House." 13 And do you recall today what you're 14 referring to when you made those -- I take it that this 15 accurately reports these comments as having come from you 16 on the evening of September 5th? 17 A: Yes. They are attributed to myself. 18 Q: And do you recall today, what you 19 were referring to, "Heat from political side. Made 20 strong comments in the House"? 21 A: I don't recall the -- that particular 22 terminology. However, I -- I suspect I'm reflecting on 23 the discussion Inspector Fox and I had in regards to the 24 Blockade Committee and the -- the issues around whether - 25 - the -- the different types of injunctions and -- and

1 all those discussions and his general comments generally. 2 Q: And, what about your discussion with 3 Mr. Beaubien -- I mean, Mr. Lacroix about Mr. Beaubien? 4 A: Well, there would be those comments. 5 Obviously, the -- the information that's being passed 6 along through Staff Sergeant Lacroix. 7 There's also the comments from Mayor 8 Thomas, Ken Williams. I mean there's -- there's a number 9 of people at the various areas of responsibility who are 10 voicing concerns and issues, so it's, quite frankly, 11 coming from all angles. 12 Q: And, what -- at six o'clock on 13 September 5th, what effect, if any, did the political 14 heat, as you put it, have on you and your planning with 15 respect to this incident? 16 A: Well, certainly what we had been 17 planning and what we continued to plan was our approach 18 to this incident by means of an injunction. All it meant 19 was that we had to stay the course. I was informing 20 people of some information that I had received. 21 But the reality of it all is, we simply 22 continue to move forward and there -- there may be some 23 obstacles at the Ministry level in regards to how the 24 injunction or what type of injunction, but that we were 25 going to continue to pursue our injunction process and

1 that, quite frankly, it's just business as usual. 2 Q: Okay. Then, you're reported to have 3 said: 4 "Advise members that the court 5 injunction is moving along." 6 You just spoke about that. 7 "Advise members to keep tonight quiet. 8 Keep a night -- an eye on checkpoints 9 and advise Logistics what your 10 locations are." 11 And, when you indicated, advised members 12 to keep tonight quite, what were you referring to? 13 A: Well, again, we just want to maintain 14 the course, maintain the checkpoints, try -- try to keep 15 this as low-key as possible. Let's sit, hold tight, wait 16 for the injunction and when the injunction comes, then 17 we'll develop some strategy of how we deal with that 18 piece. 19 Q: Okay. Then, there's a note on page 20 43: 21 "Inspector Carson debriefed Inspector 22 Linton; gave him a list of phone 23 numbers of members. Both inspectors 24 took a drive down to the Park. 25 Inspectors Carson -- Inspector Carson

1 instructed Detective Sergeant Wright to 2 go over video and mark on the map where 3 gates are, et cetera. 4 06:32 hours, inspectors left meeting 5 and it ended." 6 And, do you recall taking a drive down to 7 the Park area with Inspector Linton that evening? 8 A: I -- yes, correct. I believe that's 9 -- we both jumped in -- in one (1) of our vehicles and, I 10 believe my vehicle, and we drove down and just had a tour 11 of the area. 12 Q: And, when you say you, "had a tour of 13 the area," did you go along Army Camp Road and East 14 Parkway Drive? 15 A: I can't tell you exactly, but I -- I 16 -- I'm sure I would have. 17 Q: Okay. Now, the -- we've talked a lot 18 about the mobile command unit and I wanted to just, for 19 the benefit of everyone, pull up a couple of photographs. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: And, while we're doing that, while 24 it's... 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Technology is not 4 co-operating with me for a minute, Commissioner. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: On the screen is a photograph of the 10 Forest Detachment. That's the intersection of -- it's 11 photo 138, it's the intersection of Townsend Line and I 12 think it's -- I believe it's Broadway? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And Broadway runs west off Townsend 15 Line? 16 A: Yes -- 17 Q: At that -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And the Forest Detachment is the 20 brown building in the background? 21 A: Yes, it is. 22 Q: And immediately on the right is a 23 photograph of a -- what appears to be a trailer? 24 A: Yes, it's a forty-five (45) foot 25 command trailer.

1 Q: And is that the mobile command unit? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: Now, a number of these pictures were 4 taken -- virtually all of these pictures were taken after 5 September the 6th, but I'm going to pick out some of them 6 that show the inside of both the garage and the mobile 7 command unit. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now, on this photograph, photo 140, 12 there's a parking lot that is used for school buses 13 today. Was that parking lot used by the OPP back in 14 September of 1995? 15 A: It was a -- it was a school bus 16 parking lot at that time. The -- the owners of the 17 property simply allowed us to park our vehicles in there 18 when we needed the space, post-September 6th. 19 Q: And so this was post-September 6th, 20 and the cars that we see there -- there was a large 21 increase in the number of officers after -- post- 22 September 6th, was there not? 23 A: That's accurate. 24 Q: And so the cars we see in this 25 photograph, 140, were cars that were there post September

1 6th. You did not use that parking lot prior to the 2 shooting of Dudley George on September 6th? 3 A: Correct. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And the photograph that -- photograph 8 146 that's on the screen right now is a photograph of the 9 garage area of -- of the Forest Detachment? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And that was used as the -- 12 A: It's a briefing area. 13 Q: -- briefing area? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And some of the various maps that 16 were used, you can be -- see them here, leaning up 17 against the stairway, I guess, to the inside of the 18 Detachment? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And on the -- just inside the door 21 you can see a white board with some words on it; can you 22 read what -- tell us what that was and what the words 23 say? 24 A: It was a poster posting the project 25 plan objective. It says:

1 "Objective. To contain and negotiate a 2 peaceful [underlined] resolution." 3 Q: And who gave instructions for this 4 poster to be posted right at the entrance of the briefing 5 area? 6 A: I directed the Ident. people to 7 prepare that poster personally. And I directed that it 8 be posted and location that is found so that every 9 officer that was being briefed would have a clear 10 understanding and reminder of what the objective was. 11 So whether they, as you noticed in that 12 room, there were things like water and other refreshment 13 needs for the officers so if they attended there for a 14 briefing, for supplies or simply to travel through into 15 the building for other reasons, that every time they came 16 and went through that room, they were in fact reminded of 17 the objective of the project was. 18 Q: And this picture, I believe, was 19 taken post September 6th, was that chart posted in the 20 garage on September 5th and 6th? 21 A: That would have been posted early on 22 September 5th, early morning after the arrival of the 23 commander trailer. It would have arrived in the command 24 trailer when it was delivered to Forest Detachment 25 through the night of September 4th, early morning 6th.

1 Q: Okay. Early morning -- 2 A: Correction, 5th. 3 Q: -- of September 5th? 4 A: Yes, I'm sorry. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And this is simply another shot of 9 the garage area that was used for the briefings? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And as I understand it, the briefings 12 were -- on the shift change, all of the officers going 13 out to the checkpoints or their duties, would be briefed 14 and then the officers who had been out on the road when 15 they were relieved, would come in and be debriefed? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And that happened on September 4th -- 18 I mean September 5th and September 6th? 19 A: Right. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Then photo 149 is simply a further 24 view of the inside of the garage? 25 A: Yes. The last two (2), this one and

1 the one previous, both are photographs that were taken 2 from the doorway as you enter into the main office. 3 Q: The main office inside the 4 Detachment? 5 A: Right. The photographer would have 6 been standing with their back to the -- through the 7 doorway into the main building. 8 Q: And this photograph is photograph 150 9 -- is a shot of the inside of the Forest Detachment? 10 A: Yes, it is. 11 Q: And that's as it was setup after 12 September 6th? 13 A: Correct. The photographer would have 14 been standing basically in the same doorway but just 15 turned in the opposite direction from the previous photo. 16 Q: So he would -- the photographer was - 17 - in this photograph the garage would be behind the 18 photographer? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And this is simply another shot of 21 the inside of the Detachment as it looked post September 22 6th? 23 A: That's right. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 2 Q: Then this shot, 1 -- photo 159 shows 3 the front of the Forest Detachment. The shot is taken, 4 really, at the edge of the property on the Townsend Line 5 side looking straight through west, approximately, and is 6 that -- that's the command trailer immediately in the 7 background? 8 A: Correct. And, if that -- at this 9 point if I could just explain, in -- in regards to the 10 trailer itself, as you can see, there's the main door you 11 enter. So, you could walk from the trailer into the 12 garage right next door to it and to the front portion of 13 the trailer is the Communications Centre portion of the 14 trailer. And if you turn to left from that doorway is 15 the meeting area of the trailer. 16 Q: Okay. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: There used to be a picture there, 21 Commissioner. My computer or I have done something, but 22 perhaps, I've got... 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 Q: What I'm looking for is a photo 2 inside the Command Trailer and I've got two (2) on this 3 CD. There were certainly some where those "X's" were. 4 And I apologize, Commissioner for... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: This is a photo, it's image number 24 9 and do you recognize that photograph? 10 A: Yes, that's the Communications area 11 of the Command Trailer. 12 Q: So, as you -- on the photograph that 13 we looked at a minute ago when the door -- you would -- 14 when you entered the door -- the side of the trailer, you 15 turned right, you were in the Communications section of 16 the Command Trailer? 17 A: That's right. 18 Q: And, I see on the back of -- at least 19 when this picture was taken there's some maps and charts 20 put up at the back of the -- the trailer and that's of 21 this area? 22 A: Correct. That's for the assistance 23 of the dispatchers. 24 Q: And, we have another photograph? 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 4 going to make some of these photographs or all them 5 exhibits? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'm going to make them 7 all exhibits. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Because 9 these last ones do not have a number on them. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, what I'll do, 11 Commissioner, is -- is we'll get a CD -- create a CD ROM, 12 put the numbered photographs as well as photograph the 13 image number 24 that I just referred to and image number 14 25 that's on the screen now and we could, perhaps, just 15 reserve a number -- it'll be the next number -- 16 THE REGISTRAR: 432. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-432: CD ROM of photos 0138, 0140, 19 0146, 0148, 0149, 0150, 0151, 20 0159 and images 24 and 35. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- 432. And, again, 24 this is the Communications side of the trailer? 25 A: Yes. What you're seeing here is the

1 back of the people that were sitting in the previous 2 photograph. 3 Q: And then if you turn left into the 4 trailer, it's the area of the trailer that you use for 5 yourself and -- as incident commander and the -- your 6 command team? 7 A: That's correct. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now, the -- the evening of September 12 5th, the -- there's a reference at page 44 and I know 13 that your -- weren't on duty but I understand that 14 Inspector Linton has passed away? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And do you know how long ago he 17 passed away, approximately? 18 A: It's in the last, I believe it was in 19 the fall of 2000 or 2001. It's been about four (4) 20 years. 21 Q: And there's a note at 21:06: 22 "Mark Dew assigned vulnerable points 23 and brief letter for handout." 24 Do you have any knowledge of what's being 25 referred to there?

1 A: No, sir, I'm afraid I don't. 2 Q: Then there's a note at the bottom: 3 "Ken Skinner enquiring about light 4 armour vehicles. Inspector Linton 5 advised one (1) is negotiated through 6 London police service. Short time and 7 long term plan is that military 8 providing two (2) LAV and we have four 9 (4) drivers. 10 Inspector Linton: I would like to see 11 them floated here. We should have them 12 here." 13 And at this point in time as we looked at 14 -- spoke about yesterday, the arrangements had been the 15 London police service would provide you with a light 16 armoured vehicle for an emergency use only, if that was 17 necessary? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And the military was -- it was still 20 the military lending you the vehicles, or lending the OPP 21 vehicles for the same purpose, defensive purposes, was 22 still being -- going through the chain of command at the 23 military? 24 A: It was still in progress, yes. 25 Q: Okay. And then the -- there's a note

1 at page 45, 21:25: 2 "Rob Graham reports natives have a fire 3 at the gate. Dumpsters and signs are 4 blocking the Park entrance and Matheson 5 by way of camp entrance, parallel with 6 our checkpoint. Approximately ten (10) 7 natives standing around on Ipperwash 8 Beach on the east. And on the part of 9 the -- and the part of the chain is 10 down. 11 Ipperwash -- Inspector Linton, Bob 12 Graham can look at the end of Ipperwash 13 beach." 14 And do you know what is being referred to 15 here, Inspector Carson? 16 A: In regards to the fire location or -- 17 Q: Fire location and then the beach. 18 With respect to the fire location, it is simply at the 19 main entrance to the Ipperwash Park? 20 A: In that vicinity, yes. 21 Q: And the -- or do you know if it's 22 down at the entrance off the sandy parking lot? 23 A: Well, that's -- that's what I am not 24 sure about. It was my perception, has always been my 25 perception, that it was near the entrance to the -- the -

1 - the Park entrance proper, the road that leads to the 2 kiosk. In that general area is where I always had 3 perceived it to be. 4 As a result of some information in recent 5 months, I guess that could be debated as to exactly where 6 that was. 7 Q: At the time back in 1995 and we'll 8 come to that, you thought that the fire in the dumpsters 9 were -- dumpsters were at the main entrance, the main 10 gate and we've heard evidence at the Inquiry that there 11 was a fire on the inside of the Park by the gate that 12 opens up from the sandy parking lot into the Park near 13 the Park store? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And that's what you're just referring 16 to now? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Then Ipperwash beach that's being 19 referred to here, it's the part of the beach down by the 20 Park; is that correct? 21 A: I believe so, yes. 22 Q: Then at 22:26 hours: 23 "Kevin Robson advises video was up -- 24 the video was through wall facing 25 outside to see who was approaching I

1 think. 2 Mark Dubois is working on same. He's 3 the guy that does this work." 4 Then the video is the video that was in 5 the kiosk gatehouse; is that what's being referred to 6 here? 7 A: Either that or the one in -- in the 8 maintenance shack. One or the other. 9 Q: Okay. Then there's a note: 10 "Wade Jacklin reports at 22:43 a couple 11 of cruiser windshields smashed from 12 24:12 which is at checkpoint 'B'. It 13 sounds like rocks being thrown at them. 14 Wade Jacklin is trying to confirm with 15 Lima 2. Rob Graham is going down to 16 their location." 17 And Wade Jacklin was an ERT team member? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: And Rob Graham was an ERT team 20 sergeant? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And we have -- I'm going to play -- 23 we don't have a transcript of this but I'm going to play 24 a -- an extract from the Chatham -- one of the Chatham 25 communication tapes, Commissioner. And the note, the

1 time on the tape, Deputy Carson is 22:29:38. 2 Now 24-12 is a number for a car is that 3 correct? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And the -- what is -- 6 A: The number is assigned to a person as 7 opposed to the vehicle. 8 Q: Pardon me? 9 A: The number is assigned to the person 10 as opposed to the vehicle. 11 Q: Oh, okay. But it would be a person 12 who would be in the -- 13 A: One -- one of the ERT personnel. 14 Q: -- in the car? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And the -- 6-8 is one of your 17 communications codes; is that correct? 6-8? 18 We're going to hear about a 6-8 on this. 19 A: A 6-8? 20 Q: Yeah. Perhaps not. Oh, excuse me. 21 It's six (6) to eight (8) people on the road. Anyway I'm 22 going to play this and we'll then stop and listen to it. 23 A: Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What tab is 25 it?

1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There's no -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We don't 3 have it? 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: There's no -- no 5 transcript to this. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, that's 7 fine. 8 9 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 10 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR:: I'm sorry, 12 Commissioner, I'll just play that again. 13 14 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: Now, that is not the -- it 18 didn't work out as well -- it didn't sound -- we didn't 19 get as much sound as we -- you can if you listen to it 20 out of the system, but it appears the problem that's 21 being discussed at this point is a problem in the parking 22 lot leading down to the water, did you take that from 23 that transmission? 24 A: Yeah, there's a discussion about some 25 activities at the corner of Parkway and Army Camp Road.

1 So, they're -- they're talking about right in that 2 parking lot 3 Q: And, that's what we refer to as the 4 sandy parking lot? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: And that, the picnic tables where -- 7 there were some picnic tables in the sandy parking lot -- 8 in the parking lot? 9 A: I didn't pick that up out of the -- 10 out of the transcr -- out of this transmission. 11 Q: Okay. I'll try it again because 12 there -- just so that -- to make sure that -- they call 13 them "benches" on the -- on the tape and I'll play it -- 14 A: Oh, okay. Okay. 15 Q: -- once more so that... 16 17 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 18 19 Q: I don't know if we could get the 20 sound up a little bit higher. It's... 21 22 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 23 24 Q: So we can hear someone saying, "We're 25 down here by the fence."

1 Do you hear that? 2 A: I didn't hear the term "fence". I 3 did hear the benches that time. 4 Q: We'll start again. 5 6 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 7 8 Q: You heard that then? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 12 13 Q: And they appear to say, "May we have 14 some assistance down here. They're throwing stuff at 15 us", or words to that effect. 16 A: Yes. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 19 20 Q: Do you take that to be two (2) 21 different officers? There -- there was one that was 22 louder that said, "block -- blocking the parking lot with 23 benches", and then someone in the background says, "down 24 to the water"? 25 Q: Yes, there appears to be more than

1 one (1) officer communicating there. 2 3 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 4 5 Q: I'm going to replay that, 6 Commissioner. 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 9 10 Q: Can you pick up what the officer is 11 saying there? 12 A: No, I'm sorry, it's not clear. 13 Q: What we'll do, Commissioner, is we'll 14 -- we'll try to get a transcript made of this if we can. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 It's pretty hard to pick up some of it, obviously. 17 Is any of it typed? 18 19 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: And that's -- Lima 2 is at the MNR 23 parking lot, the tactical operations centre in the St. 24 Johns Ambulance trailer? 25 A: Correct.

1 Q: And they're speaking there to 2 Sergeant Graham who's leaving the Forest Detachment? 3 A: It sounds like he's on his way down, 4 yes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Our 6 transcription service is pretty sophisticated, and I 7 don't think it's picking up the -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, no, they won't 9 be able to pick it out and Mr. Falconer wishes to add 10 something again. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 12 to come to the mic if you have something to say? Usually 13 when people stand up, we assume they have some comment. 14 Yes, Mr. Falconer...? 15 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: I was just going to 16 seek clarification from My Friend, which I probably could 17 have done from back there about where on the logger tape 18 list he's at. 19 I understand there's no transcript, but 20 for us to follow him in terms of which tape he's relying 21 on; if he could kindly just direct us to which Chatham 22 logger tape we're at in terms of the list provided to us? 23 Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's the revised list

1 that I sent out and Mr. Falconer makes a good point. I 2 apologize to My Friends, it's region -- it's number 5, 3 September 5th, 22:29:38 Chatham 0143 track 12 disc 12 of 4 20. 5 And on the list that we distributed, the - 6 - there is a bit of a description that was done by Gerry 7 Woodworth who listened to this very carefully. It's 8 basic -- it's -- it's basically what's on part of -- on 9 the -- on this -- on the tape, but it's not a perfect 10 transcription. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: But, at any rate, that -- you would 14 agree with me that this particular incident, from what we 15 can hear on the logger tape is at East Parkway Drive and 16 Army Camp Road in the sandy parking lot? 17 A: Correct. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 19 Horton...? 20 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Commissioner, I just 21 have some difficulty with this evidence. Given the 22 quality of the tape, given the fact that the Witness has, 23 quite properly I think, indicated that he's had 24 difficultly hearing the tape from time to time, what we 25 seem to have is Mr. Millar telling the Witness what he's

1 heard on the tape -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Asking him. 3 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- and then -- and 4 then having the Witness confirm what's on the tape. And, 5 I'm just wondering what the value of the evidence is, 6 because I'm much more interested to know what the Witness 7 remembers today independently -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: -- about these 10 events. And what we essentially have rather than having 11 that evidence first in a -- in a reliable way is -- is a 12 tape put to him that's barely audible. And then have Mr. 13 Millar reconstruct it for the Witness and then have the 14 Witness basically tell -- confirm that what Mr. Millar's 15 heard on the tape is correct. 16 And I -- this is an important area, 17 actually, not just in terms of whether the events 18 occurred, because there has been lost of evidence of 19 that, but what Mr. Carson's recollection of those events 20 is and -- and how -- how they related to -- to his 21 overall activities. 22 So, I -- I really would suggest that in 23 this area there should not be any further leading and I'm 24 sorry that I actually took so long to get up because I've 25 had that concern now for -- for several minutes.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 2 Mr. Horton. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: You weren't on duty on the evening of 6 September 5th? 7 A: No, sir, I wasn't. 8 Q: And you were briefed in the morning? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: And the briefing in the morning was 11 at 06:34 hours, it's page 47? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And could you tell us what you were 14 told in the morning and you can refer to the notes if you 15 need to about what happened overnight in the parking lot 16 -- overnight when you were away? 17 A: When I returned in the morning I was 18 advised that the officers on the checkpoint, they'd be 19 the one in the area of the trailer park on Army Camp 20 Road, had observed a fire down -- down the roadway in the 21 area of the entrance of the Park. 22 The officers went down to check it out. 23 When they arrived there they were met with a barrage of 24 rocks, which ended up causing damage to several cruisers. 25 That's -- that's the -- in a nutshell, the

1 information as I understood it or my perception of the 2 information as I recall today. 3 Q: And, the -- what else were you told 4 about what happened overnight? 5 A: I was also advised that there had 6 been -- the officers had heard a number of gunshots at 7 one (1) point through the night. 8 Q: And were you told how many gunshots 9 there were -- they heard during the night? 10 A: I was told it was in the area of 11 fifty (50) to a hundred (100) rounds of fire that 12 appeared to be automatic gunfire. 13 Q: And what else were you told happened 14 during the night? 15 A: That there had been activity inside 16 of the Park and vehicles such as a dump truck and a back 17 hoe operating in the area. 18 Q: And who briefed you with respect to 19 what happened overnight? 20 A: I met with Inspector Linton. 21 Q: And anyone else? 22 A: Apparently Stan Korosec and Mark 23 Wright were there as well. 24 Q: And Mark Wright was on the day shift 25 with you?

1 A: Yes, he was being brought up to speed 2 as I was. 3 Q: And what about Stan Korosec? 4 A: I believe Stan had been one (1) of 5 the night shift sergeants. 6 Q: And were you -- what, if anything, 7 were you told about the cruisers? 8 A: Well, we had several that were 9 damaged, or three (3), I believe, to be specific. 10 Q: And then what did you do? There's a 11 note at the top of page 48. 12 A: I asked the question if 13 Superintendent Parkin had been brought up to speed and 14 briefed on the activities overnight. 15 Q: Yes, and anything else? 16 A: I requested that K9 be brought up to 17 the area. 18 Q: And why did you request that K9 be 19 brought up to the area? 20 A: Again, it was to have another one of 21 the tools that are available to us close at hand, in the 22 event that we required the use of a canine for a -- for a 23 track. 24 Q: And anything else? 25 A: We had some further discussion about

1 the light armoured vehicles and about the process to get 2 them and where we possibly could store them and about the 3 identification markings that would be placed on them. 4 Q: And was there a discussion about 5 storage of those vehicles? 6 A: Yes. I had mentioned to Staff 7 Sergeant Skinner that he could look to Pinery Park to see 8 if there was any location within the Park that we could 9 have access to or we could put them into a building and 10 secure them. 11 Q: Then there's a note at 6:46 and can 12 you tell us, either from your recollection if you have 13 any, when -- or from the note what you or anyone else 14 that you were meeting with did or said? 15 A: Well, I continued to meet with 16 Inspector Linton and we talked about the entrance to the 17 beach and he speaks to the fact that he doesn't think 18 there's much problem about access from the beach 19 entrance. 20 And apparently the -- overnight, Mark Dew 21 had been able to print out still photos from the videos 22 that could be handed out, if necessary, in regards to the 23 press release that was going to take place that day. 24 Also, I identified the fact that we needed 25 to get the helicopter up to check out any potential road

1 blocks in the Park itself that may have been constructed 2 as a result of the back hoe and dump truck that had been 3 operating through the night. 4 Q: And there's a note at 6:55 that 5 Inspector Linton went off duty. Then there's a note 6 about you. Can you tell us what that refers to? 7 A: It says that I was adjusting Doug 8 Babbitt's press release. I must have been provided a 9 copy of his draft press release and was making some -- 10 probably some grammatical changes. 11 Q: And in front of you in the red 12 folder, there's a press release. It's Inquiry document 13 1009044. And that's a press release dated September 6th, 14 1995. It has on it a faxed note with respect to Peter 15 Sturdy. 16 But is this the press release that was 17 being worked on in the morning of September 6th, or do 18 you know? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Are you referring to Document 23 1009042? 24 Q: No, 1009044. 25 A: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, that would make

1 sense that this the release that we're referring to. 2 Q: Okay. And that refers to -- at 3 approximately 11:00 p.m. on 5 September '95: 4 "Three (3) Ontario Provincial Police 5 vehicles on patrol near the main 6 entrance of Ipperwash Provincial Park 7 had their windshields damaged. Rocks 8 were thrown coming from inside 9 Ipperwash Provincial Park which is 10 occupied illegally by a group of First 11 Nations people. 12 No officers were injured. Police have 13 no suspects. No other incidents 14 occurred overnight." 15 And the -- have I read that correctly? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And perhaps we could mark this as the 18 next exhibit. It would be Exhibit -- 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-433. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 433. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-433: Document number 1009044. OPP 24 press release Sept 06/'95. 25

1 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: And we'll come back to that press 3 release in a minute. There's a note at 7:14 and can you 4 tell us about -- what -- about what happened at 7:14? 5 A: It came to my attention that there 6 were a number of picnic tables on the sandy parking lot 7 out by the roadway at the corner of Army Camp and Parkway 8 Road. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: As a result of that, I assigned Mark 11 Wright to attend and -- and if possible video the scene 12 and return to determine exactly what the circumstances 13 were there. It appears that after the damaged cruisers 14 around midnight, that the officers had moved back the 15 checkpoints a bit and when daylight came in the morning, 16 they were -- they found these tables were piled near the 17 roadway. 18 Q: And did you see the video that Mark 19 Wright took? 20 A: I don't believe he actually took a 21 video. 22 Q: Okay. Then there's a note at 7:18. 23 Can you tell us what happened at 7:18? 24 A: I received a call from Inspector Ron 25 Fox and I advised him about the damage to the cruisers,

1 about the tables that were piled outside the Park. That 2 we were going to get the video. That the location of the 3 piled tables were adjacent to private property and that 4 there was a potential with fire near those adjacent 5 houses if the tables were set on fire. 6 And I indicated that, you know, if the 7 tables -- yeah, if the tables were set on fire there 8 would be damage to the homes. 9 And I also indicated I had spoke to Chief 10 Bressette the day before and he thought we should do 11 something. John -- I -- I indicated I was going to call 12 the Mayor of Bosanquet and speak to him about the 13 incident. 14 And that we were going to deal with this - 15 - actually I think that part is more a briefing than the 16 discussion with Ron Fox. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: But we were going to deal with the 19 table issue right away. 20 Q: And what is your recollection of 21 where -- do you know where the tables were that are being 22 referred to at this point on the morning of September the 23 6th? 24 A: My understanding from recollection is 25 that the tables were piled in a line across the parking

1 lot at the road's edge such that it would prevent 2 vehicular traffic from accessing that parking lot; that's 3 -- that's how I -- I sensed it in -- in the descriptions 4 I was provided. 5 Q: And, the -- we have no transcript or 6 audio of the telephone call with Inspector Ron Fox on the 7 morning of September 6th. Do you know why that -- that 8 wasn't -- either -- it appears not -- do you know if it 9 was recorded on -- if it wasn't recorded, why it wasn't 10 recorded? 11 A: I received the call from Ron 12 according to these notes. I couldn't tell you if I 13 received it in the Command Post or if it came in on a 14 different line within the Detachment that's not recorded. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: He may have even called me on my cell 17 phone, for that matter. 18 Q: Perhaps it would be a good time for 19 the morning break, it's 10:30? 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 21 for fifteen (15) minutes. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 10:29 a.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 10:48 a.m. 25

1 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: Now, there's a note at 7:25 to -- at 6 page 49 and can you tell us what happened at 7:45 -- 25, 7 excuse me? 8 A: 25 or -- oh, 7:25. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: I'm sorry. Well, I asked Stan 11 Korosec to see if he could get the helicopter up to keep 12 an eye while we removed the picnic tables and -- but 13 prior to that I wanted Mark Wright to -- to get down 14 there, have a look and come and report back. 15 Q: Okay. And then, there's a note at 16 7:29 and what happened at 7:29? 17 A: Korosec returned -- came back to the 18 Command Post indicating that the helicopter would be 19 ready to go in thirty (30) minutes. 20 Q: And then, at 7:30 you called 21 Superintendent Parkin? 22 A: Yes, I did, and gave him an update of 23 the damage to the cruisers and the issue of the tables 24 being piled on the roadway and that Peter Sturdy was 25 working on the affidavit overnight and Ron Fox had been

1 advised. 2 Q: And, there's a note that you must 3 appear if it is set on fire? 4 A: Yes, there -- I -- I obviously 5 briefed him on the issue that if the tables were set on 6 fire, the -- the risk to the neighbouring cottages. 7 Q: And, do you know where the reference 8 -- the tables at this point are -- what was your 9 understanding of where the tables were? 10 A: They were piled on the -- on the 11 sandy parking lot on the edge of the roadway at the end 12 of Parkway Drive where the junction of Army Camp Road. 13 Q: And, Commissioner, I'm going to play 14 tape 23; it's in the document, 15 "Carson_Master_complete_final _without elapse_REV2.doc" 16 D-O-C. 17 And we don't have a transcript. For -- 18 for all of these that I play we will get transcripts 19 done, the ones that we don't have, and they'll be 20 distributed to My Friends. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 24 25 John CARSON and Anthony PARKIN

1 PARKIN: Hello. 2 CARSON: Good morning, how are you today? 3 PARKIN: Not too bad, how are you. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 6 Q: And that's Superintendent Parkin? 7 A: Yes, it is. 8 Q: And you? 9 A: That's me. 10 11 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 12 13 CARSON: Good, good. Just thought I'd give you a 14 quick 15 update here before we get into some other 16 meetings here, I can tell you that -- 17 PARKIN: Oh, okay. 18 CARSON: -- because I thought you'd want stuff as 19 early as possible. 20 PARKIN: Great. 21 CARSON: Last night we got a bit of an ambush -- 22 PARKIN: Oh. 23 CARSON: -- around eleven o'clock, 11:30, they set 24 a fire on -- on Army Camp Road itself, so 25 the ERT guys went down to check it out and

68
  1                 got bombarded by rocks from people that
  2                 were over the Park gate. 
  3  PARKIN:        Some -- some of the militants -- 
  4  CARSON:        Yeah.
  5  PARKIN:        -- were throwing them from -- from behind
  6                 the -- the gate, eh?
  7  CARSON:        Right.
  8  PARKIN:        Okay.
  9  CARSON:        Okay, so we got three (3) -- three (3)
 10                 damaged cruisers, you know, some -- 
 11  PARKIN:        All right.
 12  CARSON:        -- windows damaged.
 13  PARKIN:        And there was nobody -- nobody hurt?
 14  CARSON:        No, no, we got out of there okay.  But
 15                 overnight they piled a bunch of picnic
 16                 tables over the fence, between the fence
 17                 and the first cottage, right at the
 18                 beachfront.
 19  PARKIN:        Okay, now let me get this.  Over the
 20                 fence, on the beach?
 21  CARSON:        Yeah, now if you drove down Army Camp Road
 22                 and continued straight off the end of it
 23                 and you go on to a -- a big public parking
 24                 area.
 25  PARKIN:        Okay.

1 CARSON: And that takes you right down to the 2 waterfront. 3 PARKIN: Okay. 4 CARSON: So what they did is that area between the 5 first cottage and the fence to the park, 6 which is either township or County 7 property, I don't know which. 8 PARKIN: Yeah. 9 CARSON: They piled a whole slew of picnic tables 10 in there and we don't know why, evidently 11 they did it for a -- you know, to create a 12 -- a humongous bonfire or what, I don't 13 know, and I've got somebody going down 14 right now to check it out to see exactly 15 what's there. 16 PARKIN: Uh huh. 17 CARSON: And I've MNR arranging some vehicles, 18 trucks and that, and we're going to haul 19 them out of there. 20 PARKIN: Okay. 21 CARSON: And we'll put the helicopter up to provide 22 the eye for cover, in the event that -- 23 that they try to, you know, cause us any 24 aggravation. And we've got the nighttime 25 ERT teams are just being debriefed now,

1 and I'll have them just stand by while the 2 -- the dayshift ERT go in and take them 3 out. 4 PARKIN: Okay. 5 CARSON: Okay. 6 PARKIN: Yeah. 7 CARSON: But I think we've got to get them out of 8 there, because if they set a fire, we 9 can't get the damn fire department in 10 there to, you know, to prevent it from 11 spreading to the next door house, if it -- 12 if it's the way I think it is. 13 PARKIN: Yeah. So I guess there'd be somebody 14 (inaudible) house, (inaudible) the cottage 15 or something? 16 CARSON: Well I think it's -- I think it's not a 17 year round residence, I don't believe. 18 PARKIN: Yeah. 19 CARSON: Okay. But it -- but it's a significant 20 cottage in cottage terms. 21 PARKIN: Right, right, yeah. 22 CARSON: And so you know, from a public perspective 23 I think that we've got to address that 24 quick, quick. 25 PARKIN: No, that's great.

1 CARSON: Okay. 2 PARKIN: The videos. 3 CARSON: Yes. 4 PARKIN: Working? 5 CARSON: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no problem. The one 6 (1) place is getting information, the 7 other one (1) there's no activity. 8 PARKIN: Oh, okay, good. 9 CARSON: Okay. 10 PARKIN: Because -- okay, well that's great. 11 CARSON: Yeah. 12 PARKIN: That's good. 13 CARSON: And we got a -- we got a video from the -- 14 from the sky. 15 PARKIN: Yeah. 16 CARSON: And we have the video printer (inaudible) 17 so we can print out some pictures and see 18 some of the activity going on outside, and 19 we're going to work on that some more 20 today. 21 PARKIN: Again I guess the next thing you'll have 22 to explore is audio? 23 CARSON: That's right. 24 PARKIN: Okay. 25 CARSON: Okey dokey.

1 PARKIN: So basically it's very quiet except for 2 the one (1) incident there where the guys 3 got some bottles and stuff thrown at them? 4 CARSON: Yes. 5 PARKIN: No injuries, a couple cruisers with some 6 minor damage? 7 CARSON: Yeah. 8 PARKIN: Were there any negotiations (inaudible). 9 CARSON: Not overnight. 10 PARKIN: No -- no, talking? 11 CARSON: No, we're going to push that a little bit 12 today. 13 PARKIN: Okay. And do you expect to hear anything 14 from MNR today? 15 CARSON: Hopefully. Peter Sturdy was working on 16 the affidavit overnight and I hope to hear 17 right away. The Park Superintendent and 18 the enforcement guy is here this morning. 19 So we're -- 20 PARKIN: Okay. 21 CARSON: -- we're expecting, you know, information 22 as soon as it's available. 23 PARKIN: Okay. All right then, I'll wait to hear 24 from you next, and I'll send a little 25 update to (inaudible) this morning.

1 CARSON: Okay, and Ron FOX is already called and 2 he's got the majority of that information 3 already. 4 PARKIN: Great. 5 CARSON: Okay. 6 PARKIN: Okay, fine. Have a good one. 7 CARSON: Okay. 8 PARKIN: Talk to you later. 9 CARSON: Okay, bye. 10 11 End of conversation. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Now, the cottage that you're 15 referring to in this call, there is, today, a big white 16 cottage right next to the Sandy Parking Lot on the west 17 side, at the top of the beach over -- top of the dunes, I 18 guess, or the hill, overlooking the water. 19 Was that cottage, to your understanding, 20 there in 1995? 21 A: I believe it is. But -- 22 Q: What is the cottage that you were 23 concerned about back in 1995 in this conversation? 24 A: It's the first cottage right next to 25 the parking lot. If you're standing in the Sandy Parking

1 Lot and looking down Parkway Drive, you're -- you can't 2 help but look at that cottage. 3 Q: Okay. And now if I could take you 4 back to the calls that we were looking at -- we listened 5 to, the first call that we listened to was Call Number 5 6 on the document, "Carson addition without collapse", that 7 I provided to My Friends. And that call was recorded at 8 22:30 and refers to -- you have -- you listened to the 9 recording, along with the rest of us, and it's not the 10 best. 11 But it -- where do you take the loc -- 12 from what you could hear on the call, where do you take 13 the location of the problem to be, as reported by the 14 officers, in that telephone call -- in that radio 15 transmission? 16 A: In -- in regards to the bonfire on 17 the roadway? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: Oh. It -- it was my understanding 20 that it was near the entrance of the Park on -- on the 21 Army Camp Road but closer to the Park entrance. 22 Q: And in the transmission that we 23 listened to at 22:29, 24:12 to Lima 2, do you know the 24 location that they're referring to in that transmission? 25 A: Yeah, but quite frankly I can't be

1 certain, but it -- it appears to be closer to the Sandy 2 Parking Lot. 3 Q: Then there is a -- a note at 7:35 and 4 what happens at 7:35? 5 A: Les Kobayashi advises me that at 9:30 6 the inner -- inter-ministerial meeting will be taking 7 place. 8 Q: And "that you will know", it says 9 now, but it -- presumably should be "know more after 10 that"? 11 A: Yeah -- Yes. We -- we would expect 12 to get some information from that as to the progress of 13 the injunction process. 14 Q: And at 7:38 you give -- what do you 15 do at 7:38? 16 A: I directed Kent -- Staff Sergeant 17 Kent Skinner to get the police decals we have, that's the 18 markings we want to put on the LAV's if and when they 19 arrive. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: And we wanted to have them available 22 to us at the -- at Forest so that when -- when the 23 opportunity comes, that we will be able to quickly mark 24 them up as we need. 25 Q: Yes.

1 A: Then Stan Korosec was directed to 2 have the Number 1, two (2) District ERT teams go down to 3 the TOC site and just standby until Mark Wright arrives. 4 And that the Ministry of Natural Resources 5 is getting some vehicles that will meet them there so 6 that they can remove the picnic tables. 7 Q: Yes. And then at 7:50? 8 A: "Mark Wright came back to the command 9 post drawing the scene of a dozen, 10 twelve (12) tables, two (2) tents, two 11 (2) children/teenagers. 12 And I said get the ERT teams -- oh the 13 two (2) ERT teams, that are prepared to 14 go off duty, to go in and get it all 15 and clear it out. And make sure that 16 Constable Evans [he's one of the 17 identification officers] is there to 18 video tape everything and have the 19 chopper up with an eye and have him 20 stand off." 21 What I'm saying here is have him stand 22 away until we go in then he could move in closer once -- 23 once the officers are in there moving -- removing the 24 picnic tables. 25 Q: Okay. Then, the -- at 7:51 you have

1 a call, although it's not noted, with Mr. Doug Babbitt 2 about a press release and that's call number 24 on the 3 list, "Carson Master Complete Final Without Elapsed Time" 4 And, it's -- we don't have a transcript of 5 this call. 6 7 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 8 9 John CARSON and Doug BABBITT 10 11 (Phone ringing) 12 13 BABBITT: Sergeant BABBITT. 14 CARSON: Oh, you are there. Yeah, I just want to 15 make sure, yeah, hang on just a sec, yeah. 16 Oh, okay. 17 How's it going? 18 BABBITT: Good. 19 CARSON: Any calls this morning? 20 BABBITT: Very, very few. 21 CARSON: Did you get the press release all right? 22 BABBITT: No, we haven't got it here yet. 23 CARSON: It's not there yet? 24 BABBITT: I don't think so. 25 (Background) Did a press release come in?

1 No, we haven't got anything here. 2 CARSON: It didn't come back? 3 BABBITT: No, we're waiting for it, just -- just -- 4 CARSON: Okay, I'll -- I'll take care of it right 5 now. 6 BABBITT: Okay. 7 CARSON: Thanks. 8 BABBITT: Thanks, John. 9 CARSON: Bye. 10 11 End of Conversation. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Then, at 8:08 you have -- it's call 15 number 25 on the list, "Casts Carson Master Complete 16 Final Without Elapse" at 8:08, and the -- we don't have a 17 transcript for it, it's a very short one, but we'll just 18 play it. 19 20 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 21 22 John CARSON and Doug BABBITT 23 24 (Phone ringing) 25

1 BABBITT: Sergeant BABBITT. 2 CARSON: Hang on, Doug. 3 (Talking in the background) 4 CARSON: You got your fax? 5 BABBITT: Yes, I did. 6 CARSON: Okay, sorry about that, there was a little 7 -- little issue here, not a big deal. 8 BABBITT: Okay. It's -- it's already gone out. 9 CARSON: Okay. 10 BABBITT: I sent it to everybody else that we're 11 supposed to send it to. 12 CARSON: Okay. All right. 13 BABBITT: Okay, thanks, John. 14 CARSON: Is everything else okay? 15 BABBITT: Yeah, we're looking forward to our move 16 today. 17 CARSON: Oh, right, that's being addressed? 18 BABBITT: Yeah, it is, everything's being looked 19 after. That Bill DENNIS was a good guy to 20 choose. 21 CARSON: (Laughing) 22 BABBITT: (Laughing). 23 CARSON: The right people for the right job, my 24 friend. 25 BABBITT: There you go.

1 CARSON: Okay. 2 BABBITT: Thanks. 3 CARSON: Thanks. Oh by the way. 4 BABBITT: Yeah. 5 CARSON: I guess you and I are bunking together 6 allegedly tonight. 7 BABBITT: Oh, I'm down in Pinery or Grand Bend now. 8 CARSON: Oh, okay. Well that'll work out just 9 fine, because I give -- well, I gave Dale 10 LINTON my key, and he can sleep during the 11 day, I'll go in there tonight, so that'll 12 work out just fine. 13 BABBITT: Okay. 14 CARSON: Okay. 15 BABBITT: All right then, thank you. 16 CARSON: Yeah. 17 BABBITT: Okay, bye. 18 CARSON: Bye. 19 20 End of Conversation. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Then, at -- and that's -- the press 24 release, I believe, that was being discussed was the one 25 we marked as P-433?

1 A: I believe so, yes. 2 Q: And, was there some discussion about 3 the automatic weapon fire that you had received 4 information about with respect to the press release; do 5 you recall? 6 A: Was there -- do you mean was it 7 discussed whether we put it in or not? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: I -- I don't have any independent 10 recollection one (1) way or the other, quite frankly. 11 Q: Okay. Then if I could ask you at 12 8:11, there's a note and can you tell us what happened at 13 8:11? 14 A: "Had some discussion and Sergeant 15 Korosec indicated that the back-hoe and 16 the dump truck were in there last night." 17 Q: And when it says "in there last 18 night", what is being referred to? 19 A: Oh, we're talking about in the 20 Provincial Park itself. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: "And Constable Mark Granston 23 apparently pepper strayed somebody and 24 thinks he hit him with the pepper 25 spray. And I asked Kent Skinner if he

1 had the large cannister of pepper stray 2 with the TRU team. 3 And Korosec indicated we had an extra 4 case of OC spray and Bill Dennis will 5 look after getting that. And also some 6 discussion about getting ASP batons for 7 the ERT officers. 8 Q: And what is OC spray referred to? 9 A: It's -- the common name is pepper 10 spray. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: There's a -- there's a proper 13 terminology but I'll -- 14 Q: And -- 15 A: I messed -- I messed that up. 16 Q: -- who suggests getting ASP batons? 17 A: I believe that was my direction. 18 Q: And why was that? 19 A: Well at that time we were just in the 20 middle of transitioning from a twenty-six (26) inch 21 wooden baton that was carried on the belt in a eye hook 22 and we were moving to an ASP baton which is a metal 23 collapsible baton. 24 The ASP collapsible baton is carried on 25 the belt but it collapses to roughly six (6), seven (7)

1 inches in length. And it's a much easier piece of 2 equipment to carry on the belt. 3 The -- the difficulty with the wooden 4 batons, the use of the baton and the effectiveness of the 5 baton is -- is really no different. The issue is that 6 the larger twenty-six (26) inch baton, a lot of officers 7 don't carry it because it's cumbersome. And when you're 8 trying to get in and out of vehicles it's getting caught 9 and it's hanging down the side of your leg and it's just 10 a real aggravation to carry. So what we had done in our 11 patrol vehicles is we had placed baton holders on the 12 inside of the -- both front doors. 13 And unfortunately what ends up happening 14 is most of the time officers when they need the baton 15 it's in the holder in the front door and not on their 16 belt where it's needed. 17 So some of the officers at that time had 18 ASP batons in their equipment and some did not. And I 19 wanted all the officers to have the use of force 20 equipment available to them in the event that it was 21 required. 22 So the simple way to do that was to issue 23 them all with the same ASP baton and with the -- the 24 holder that would be on their belt so that they would 25 have their baton with them at all times.

1 Q: And when you refer to the use of 2 force; you just referred to use of force? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And what's -- what did you mean by 5 that? 6 A: Well use of force equipment is all 7 the equipment that's available to an officer in the 8 different levels of force necessary. 9 When you talk the basic use of force, you 10 talk about hand to hand use of force applying personal -- 11 taking control physically then your next use of force is 12 a baton or pepper spray depending on the situation the 13 officers face. 14 And of course it -- it escalates to the 15 lethal use of force, that being the 40 calibre pistol 16 that the officers carry. So it's just one of the levels 17 in the continuum of force. 18 Q: And the -- when the ASP baton is 19 extended, it extends to how long back in 1995? 20 A: I believe it's twenty-six (26) 21 inches. 22 Q: And it was made of metal? 23 A: It's metal, yes. 24 Q: And we will have an ASP baton before 25 Inspector -- Deputy Carson is finished to demonstrate to

1 everyone. So -- he -- now there's a note: 2 "John Carson brings up the issue of 3 training for the ASP batons. Stan 4 Korosec advises that Dave Stankevich 5 can do the training. 6 John Carson asked Stan Korosec to find 7 out how many we need. Call stores to 8 get them." 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And in the normal -- when you -- 11 normally when a new piece of equipment back in 1995, was 12 introduced, what type of training would there have been, 13 normally, with respect to an ASP -- a piece of equipment 14 such as the ASP baton? 15 A: Well, depending on what the -- the 16 equipment is, I mean, any new equipment introduced is 17 accompanied with the appropriate training. 18 An ASP baton, as far as the use of the 19 baton, is identical to a wooden baton. The only issue 20 between that -- from a training perspective that's 21 required in regards to an ASP baton is the fact that it 22 is collapsable and so it's how you carry out, how you 23 take it out of the holder, how you open it and how you 24 retract it, that the training is required to address. 25 Q: Okay.

1 A: So, it's a -- it's a handling of it, 2 as opposed to the actual use -- the actual -- like, 3 there's no new training in regards to the types of 4 strikes and where you can strike and that type of thing. 5 It's just a handling of the -- of the -- 6 of the baton itself. 7 Q: The ASP baton, as I understand it, 8 has as well, at the end of the -- when it's -- at the end 9 of the baton, has a little metal sort of round metal 10 piece? 11 A: On the very tip? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Yes, it's round, ball-like, yes. 14 Q: Now, the -- I note at page 51 of the 15 logger notes, the two (2) calls that I played with 16 Sergeant Babbitt are listed at 8:14 and 8:15 and the 17 calls as noted on the logger tape were 7:51 and 8:08. 18 I take it those were the same calls? 19 A: I believe so. 20 Q: Then at 8:15, there's a note that 21 Mark Wright advised you that the Mayor of Bosanquet was 22 there to see him and you asked Mark Wright to ask the 23 Mayor to come in. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And that's Mayor Fred Thomas?

1 A: It is. 2 Q: And there's a note at 8:17, can you 3 tell us what happened in your meeting with Mayor Thomas? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 A: We had, it appears to be a fairly 8 lengthy discussion. He indicated they had a regular 9 Council meeting and this issue didn't help much. They 10 were just in the process of opening tenders for a water 11 line for the Ipperwash area. 12 Q: And does that refer to the whole area 13 or the Army Camp or what or do you recall? 14 A: I think it's a water line that 15 actually travels past CFB Ipperwash and into the 16 Ipperwash beach area is how I understand it, which may 17 not be a 100 percent -- 18 Q: Yeah -- 19 A: -- accurate, but -- 20 Q: Sure. 21 A: -- generally I was of the 22 understanding it went past the Military Base. 23 Q: Okay. Yes? 24 A: I indicated that we had been talking 25 to Tom Bressette and he wasn't supportive of -- of the

1 actions of the people down there. And the Mayor 2 indicated to me that he didn't want me to take offence in 3 regards to the issues they were trying to address and I 4 believe we're talking about the press release that had 5 gone out the day before. 6 Mayor indicated they were trying to take a 7 low key to this. And they feel they are the third-party 8 involved here. 9 Again, he reiterated the issue about Outer 10 Drive and I assured him that we were dealing with that 11 and that we had put a patrol on that area and, 12 particularly, we were using the ERT teams. 13 Fred Thomas indicated the residents are 14 pleased with the visibility of the police officers and 15 happy, basically, that we are there. He inquired about 16 school buses and I indicated they could go down and turn 17 around and in particular we're talking about the Silver 18 Birch area on Army Camp Road. 19 And, I just had some discussion with him 20 in that we prefer they go down and turn around and come 21 back out as opposed to going down around the corner by 22 the Provincial Park. And informed him that the cruisers 23 had the windows smashed out of them the night before and 24 the Mayor indicated he'd been in contact with Marcel 25 Beaubien and informed him of the situation.

1 Fred Thomas asked about the injunction and 2 I advised that if -- well, I -- I take him through the 3 whole process again about the differences between 4 trespass and the use of an injunction and -- and that 5 type of issues in regards to the legal processes. And 6 that explaining to him that, you know, we need to get a 7 court order and if there's a violation of a court order, 8 we have a criminal offence and the steps that allow us to 9 take in regards to release with conditions, et cetera. 10 And again, a court order would declare the 11 issue of ownership of the Park. And we agreed that the - 12 - the Park is being occupied illegally. 13 The Mayor indicated to me that we, the 14 police, have the full support of the community and feels 15 they're being terrorized. And I indicated to him that 16 the Premier and the Solicitor General wanted to deal with 17 this and that the Interministerial Meeting is going to 18 take place again this morning. 19 And, I also alerted him that the occupiers 20 had moved in garbage containers up against the gate, 21 piled up some wood and there had been a fire and when the 22 officers responded they were ambushed with rocks. 23 He also indicated that he's concerned 24 about his spouse, that she's at home alone and the 25 location where they live. And he didn't want officers

1 going to the house and speaking to her, that she was very 2 upset, but he would like some patrols in the area if 3 possible. And I -- I assured him I'd make sure that our 4 supervisors were aware of the location of his residence 5 and provide patrols. 6 At this point, I had informed him that we 7 had undercover people working in the Park through the 8 month of August and Thomas reiterated again that the 9 people are very upset out there. 10 And the only other thing that took place 11 in regards to this meeting was that Minister Thomas 12 wanted to be kept in the information loop, that if we did 13 succeed in getting an injunction, that Ken Williams would 14 let -- be made -- be made aware of it and that they could 15 work through with their plans and they had equipment such 16 as backhoes available if that was necessary. And, I 17 assured him we'd keep in touch. 18 Q: Okay. And, there's a reference that 19 you -- you referred to at the top of the page: 20 "The Premier and Solicitor General want 21 to deal with this." 22 And, what was this about? 23 A: Again, this is about the -- the 24 meeting that's going forward on -- I believe it was 9:30 25 that day, the Interministerial meeting to seek the

1 injunction and the sense is, is that the Premier and 2 Solicitor General are supportive of that process 3 continuing. 4 Q: Okay. And when you were briefed in 5 the morning of September the 6th, you were told as you 6 testified both before and after I played the -- the 7 communication at 22:29 on September 6th, that you 8 understood the alter -- the fire to be on Army Camp Road 9 outside the main gate to the camp? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And the main gate to the camp would 12 lead past the kiosk or gatehouse into the Park? 13 A: Right. We're talking the main gate 14 into the Provincial Park. 15 Q: Into the Park, yes. 16 A: Right, right, yes. 17 Q: And were you advised by anyone that 18 the -- that officers had tried to push picnic tables out 19 of the sandy parking lot? 20 A: No, sir. 21