1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 17th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )    (np)
  5  Katherine Hensel  )    (np)
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein )  (np)      The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )   (np)     George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    )            Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena  (Army Camp)
 18  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stony
 19  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 20  Colleen Johnson  )   (np)
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )              Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Susan Freeborn   )   (np)
 25  Michelle Pong    )   (np)

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )              Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Ian Smith        )              Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )
 11  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 12  Jacqueline Horvat )
 13  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 14  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 15  
 16  Mark Sandler       )            Ontario Provincial 
 17  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 18  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 19  
 20  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 21  Karen Jones      )   (np)       Police Association &
 22  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 23  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
 24  Annie Leeks      )   (np)
 25  Jennifer Gleitman )

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )              Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  Clem Nabigon     )   (np)
  7  Adriel Weaver     )   (np)       Student-at-Law
  8  
  9  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
 10  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 11  
 12  William Horton   )              Chiefs of Ontario
 13  Matthew Horner   )
 14  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 15  
 16  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 17  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 18  Megan Mackey     )   (np)
 19  Erin Tully       )
 20  
 21  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 22  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 23  Melissa Panjer   )
 24  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 8 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 333 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-429: Document Number 1001101 September 4 05/95 12:03 E-mail to Nancy Mansell 5 from Anthony Parkin Re: Ipperwash 6 Provincial Park. 199 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon resuming at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 9 everybody. 10 11 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed: 12 13 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 14 Q: Good morning, Deputy Carson. 15 A: Good morning, sir. 16 Q: If I could take you to Exhibit P-426 17 please. The logger notes page 18. And you can use 18 either -- I assume the ones that you have in front of you 19 are the same so -- although they're -- that is an 20 assumption actually because there are some minor 21 differences in some of these. 22 But could I take you to -- there's an 23 entry at 7:03 at the top of page 18 that I didn't ask you 24 about and I would like to. It says: 25 "John Carson and Mark Wright

1 orientation of command unit with 2 Sergeant Cousineau. John Carson re: 3 telephones. Have one phone that rings 4 here for calls like Chief to call me." 5 Now what does that refer to? 6 A: That means that I wanted one (1) line 7 that was available for, basically a private line for 8 myself that no one else would have access to. 9 Q: And we'll hear about that line again. 10 But that line going to be recorded? 11 A: At that time I didn't have any idea 12 whether it was recorded or not. 13 Q: Okay. And at this time did you want 14 it recorded or did you simply want a line that was a line 15 direct to you? 16 A: At that point in time I hadn't turned 17 my mind to the issue of it being recorded. I wasn't 18 aware that it was or wasn't recorded. My assumption 19 quite frankly would have been that it would not have been 20 recorded. 21 However, the -- the point I was trying to 22 make at that point in time was that that wouldn't be a 23 number that would be -- that would be widely distributed 24 to the people involved in order to call in, that that 25 number be given to select people who would have direct

1 access to myself. 2 Q: Okay. Now if I could take you to 3 8:27 you had a telephone call with Wade Lacroix? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And for the benefit of My Friends, in 6 the book that -- the book that says, "Audio logger, 7 selected tapes Chief Superintendent J. Carson." 8 If you go to Tab 4 and that's right in 9 front of you. I think that should be that and it says 10 "John Carson and unknown staff sergeant." And I believe 11 that you will identify this as Wade Lacroix. Does that - 12 - on the book that you have in front of you, is that what 13 you've got? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 16 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 17 18 John Carson and unknown Staff Sergeant 19 20 September 5, 1995 21 TIME: 08:20:42 hours 22 Track 1.wav 23 24 MALE: Command Post. 25 MALE: Is Johnny CARSON there.

1 MALE: John CARSON, yes he is in here. 2 MALE: Is that you Bunk. 3 MALE: Yep. 4 MALE: Can I speak at him. 5 MALE: You sure can. Hang on one sec. 6 CARSON: Inspector CARSON. 7 MALE: Good morning sir. 8 CARSON: Hi, how are ya. 9 MALE: Well I was kind of hoping this would have 10 happened when I was on two weeks vacation, 11 not the day I come back. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Now that's Staff Sergeant Wade 15 Lacroix? 16 A: Correct. 17 18 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 19 20 CARSON: Haw, haw, haw, no such luck there bud. 21 MALE: Ah I just received a phone call from the 22 MPP, quite irate, not at us. 23 CARSON: Right. 24 MALE: Ah, he's going to call here. 25 CARSON: You're being recorded by the way, we're on

1 recorded lines here. 2 MALE: Okay. 3 CARSON: Okay. 4 MALE: He wants me to brief him, he's going to 5 call the Premier and say this is 6 ridiculous. 7 CARSON: Yes. 8 MALE: And I want something done. 9 CARSON: Well okay and and so that you know we have 10 4 ERT Teams. Two were on the ground all 11 night and two new ones are in there now. 12 MALE: Okay. 13 CARSON: We're past trying to contain it. 14 MALE: Okay. 15 CARSON: And ah ah our our objective here is to 16 contain and negotiate a peaceful solution 17 with this whatever that may be. 18 MALE: Okay. 19 CARSON: Ah, we have ah, adequate resources at this 20 time to ah to address all public concerns. 21 MALE: Okay. 22 CARSON: Ah, no one ah in the community is is in 23 any danger of anything in our estimation 24 and ah we will maintain that level of 25 service ah as long as it is required.

1 MALE: Okay. 2 CARSON: Okay. 3 MALE: Um we'll address we're going for an 4 injunction. 5 CARSON: Yes Natural Resources are addressing that 6 as we speak. 7 MALE: Okay, who's the ERT ah who's the ERT guy 8 who's the ERT commanders. 9 CARSON: Well, we've got ah one (1), two (2), three 10 (3) and six (6) here. Ah, three (3) and 11 six (6) are on the ground now. One (1) 12 and two (2) are just coming back from 13 debriefing after the nights over. 14 MALE: The only reason I'm asking is if it's a 15 large formation I was, I'm one of the 16 ones, I'm just wondering who you've got 17 doing that. 18 CARSON: I'm sorry. 19 MALE: For a large formation of ERT there is 20 suppose to be a, a ah Staff Sergeant, I'm 21 just wondering if, 22 CARSON: Well at this point, ah. 23 MALE: Well get em on standby. 24 CARSON: No they are here. 25 MALE: No I mean but I mean what what are you

1 going to do with that I mean the only 2 reason I'm asking is I'm one. I just 3 wanted to know. 4 CARSON: You mean as a crowd control operation. 5 MALE: Yeah. 6 CARSON: Well we don't intend to go into that mode. 7 MALE: Okay. 8 CARSON: All they're all they're doing is is a 9 perimeter security. 10 MALE: Okay. 11 CARSON: That's it. 12 MALE: Okay, I get yah. 13 CARSON: Ah, but if you have time, it probably 14 appropriate if you can wheel over here 15 after you get, you know, those phone calls 16 addressed cause you know, you know the 17 plan as well as anybody and because you 18 were away, ah, you missed out on the 19 planning exercise. 20 MALE: Okay. 21 CARSON: But ah, you have intimate knowledge of 22 all, you know our ninety three (93) plans. 23 MALE: Okay. 24 CARSON: And ah, they are very appropriate and you 25 know as this thing rolls along you're

1 probably going to be relieving somebody 2 somewhere. 3 MALE: Okay. 4 CARSON: Okay. 5 MALE: So I'll I'll do that. 6 CARSON: Yeah, so you know, we went through an 7 exercise last Friday ah and setup some 8 plans because the intelligence was 9 supporting this. 10 MALE: Okay. 11 CARSON: And ah, so we took some steps and ah thank 12 goodness we did. 13 MALE: Okay yeah good. Now when you say so four 14 (4) are actually on ground but two (2) are 15 on duty right now. 16 CARSON: Right. 17 MALE: Like two (2) on days. 18 CARSON: Two (2) up and two (2) down. Yeah, twelve 19 (12) on and twelve (12) off. 20 MALE: Twelve (12) on, twelve (12) off. Okay. 21 Okay. 22 CARSON: Okay. 23 MALE: (u/i) will address situation will stay 24 until resolved. 25 CARSON: Yep and I'm on the ground here and I will

1 be here. 2 MALE: Okay and I've got your number right. 3 CARSON: Yeah I don't they we've changed. 4 MALE: (u/i). 5 CARSON: Eh. 6 MALE: How do you want him to call to call me or 7 what. 8 CARSON: I'd prefer that. 9 MALE: Okay. 10 CARSON: Ah, and. 11 MALE: If he'll do that. 12 CARSON: Yeah he knows you and and ah like I if he 13 wants information from me I'd be glad to 14 talk to him, that's not a problem, but I 15 would, I would rather have some idea of 16 what he's looking for so we can be 17 prepared with that. 18 MALE: Let's leave it this way. 19 CARSON: Yeah. I'm already getting calls last 20 night from Rosemary UR. 21 MALE: Okay. 22 CARSON: Yeah. 23 MALE: I guess he was up all last night and he's 24 already got several phone calls. He 25 called me and he just let me know that

16
  1                 he's calling the Premiers and (u/i).
  2  CARSON:        Yep.
  3  MALE:          I guess he met with Wesser BUSH again on
  4                 Saturday.
  5  CARSON:        Oh, okay.
  6  MALE:          So he wants to call and say, look, what
  7                 we've got to do something and.
  8  CARSON:        Yeah.
  9  MALE:          It's now Provincial and so anyway I I'll
 10                 call him back (u/i).
 11  CARSON:        Okay.  Well that's good and let me know
 12                 how you make out with him.  I I I am
 13                 interested in his, in his feelings about
 14                 this.
 15  MALE:          Okay.
 16  CARSON:        Okay.
 17  MALE:          Oh good.
 18  CARSON:        Thanks.
 19  MALE:          Bye bye.
 20  CARSON:        Right oh.
 21  
 22  End of conversation.
 23  
 24  CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:   
 25                 Q:   Now that call that we've just

1 listened to, the call at 8:27 with Staff Sergeant Lacroix 2 is noted in the -- is noted in the scribe note -- is 3 noted on the Tab 4 at the top of the page. The time is 4 8:20 and there's a seven (7) minute difference between 5 the time identified, 8:20:42, actually, the time 6 identified on the transcript and the note in the scribe 7 notes. 8 And, frankly, we'll see that often. 9 There'll be five (5) or six (6) minutes difference 10 between the time recorded on -- on the logger tape or 11 wherever it's recorded and the scribe notes, and were you 12 aware of that? 13 A: I wasn't aware there was a difference 14 in the recording of the time. 15 Q: And if there is a difference do you - 16 - do you have an understanding of why there might be a 17 difference? 18 A: Well, the time for the scribe notes 19 are as recorded by the scribe who, I suspect, is 20 referring to his personal watch or her watch. And the 21 time in regards to the phone call from logger tape, I 22 mean it's electronic time so it just depends on how those 23 clocks are set. I don't think there's any exact science 24 in how, like, the watches and clocks are certainly not 25 synchronized in any -- with any -- there's on direction

1 to synchronize time. 2 Q: So that at the beginning, everyone 3 involved didn't synchronize their watches and keep them 4 synchronized throughout? 5 A: No. There was never any discussion 6 about that. 7 Q: And in terms of the times, which 8 would be, in general, the more accurate time, the time on 9 the electronic recording or the scribe notes? 10 A: Well, the -- the electronic -- on the 11 logger tapes, I mean, the machine stamps the time. On 12 the scribe notes, it may be that I turned to the scribe 13 and said, you know, This is the information on the phone 14 call and they wrote the time down at that point, which 15 may be the conclusion of the phone call versus, you know, 16 the start of a phone call. 17 So, accuracy is probably more reflective 18 of the time stamp from the logger recorder, I would 19 suspect. 20 Q: Okay. And the note in the tape in 21 the -- at page 19 in the logger tape for this call is 22 very brief. 23 "John Carson received call from Wade 24 Lacroix, advised for ERT. We're trying 25 to contain it. Objective: to contain

1 and resolve it peacefully. No one in 2 community in is any danger as we have 3 adequate services present. At this 4 point request him to attend, as he is 5 aware of plans." 6 And the -- I know it's a long time ago and 7 you probably can't remember this particular call, but the 8 scribe at this point was Karen Shaw and did you instruct 9 her or would you -- did you instruct her to write down 10 this particular item or did she simply pick it up from 11 the call? 12 A: Quite frankly, it could be either and 13 it also could be a situation where she was taking one (1) 14 side of the conversation as I was speaking and I may have 15 said, make sure this is in the information. 16 Q: And when you were on the phone, was 17 the -- was it a speaker phone that the scribe could hear 18 both sides of the conversation or the scribe -- could the 19 -- was it a phone that she could only hear or he, as the 20 case may be, one (1) side of the conversation? 21 A: It was a standard handset, at no time 22 used on speaker phone. 23 Q: And the phones -- the telephones in 24 the mobile command unit, none of them were speaker 25 phones?

1 A: Quite frankly, I don't know if they 2 had that capability or not. 3 Q: And if we look just -- because this 4 is a -- is an example at Exhibit 427, which is at Tab 13 5 of your book, the handwritten scribe notes... 6 A: Yes? 7 Q: And the note that was inserted in the 8 typed log -- typed note is the same as in the handwritten 9 expect for the last line: 10 "We are only using ERT for perimeter 11 security. 12 And -- 13 A: The page number, sir? 14 Q: That's page 389 in Exhibit 427, 8:27. 15 A: Thank you. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And that line's left out. 21 "We are only using ERT for perimeter 22 security, at this point. [Then] request 23 him attend, as he is aware of plans 24 [was inserted]." 25 Do you have any idea why the scribe left

1 that out? 2 A: None whatsoever. 3 Q: Then if I could -- in your 4 conversation with Wade Lacroix, he was talking about Mr. 5 Beaubien, the local MPP and you wanted him to deal with 6 Mr. Beaubien? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: "He" being Wade Lacroix? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: And he was asking you about the -- 11 the ERT teams and a large formation and you note, "You 12 mean as a crowd control operation?" 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And the ERT teams that are used for a 15 crowd control operation is what was called the crowd 16 management unit? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And the crowd management unit ais, I 19 think we spoke the other day, is made up of two (2) ERT 20 teams headed by a Staff Sergeant? 21 A: That's correct. 22 Q: And Wade Lacroix was a Staff Sergeant 23 trained for -- to head up a CMU? 24 A: Yes, he was. 25 Q: And at this point in time, you had no

1 intention of going into a crowd management unit 2 situation? 3 A: None whatsoever. 4 Q: And they were simply being used, the 5 ERT teams, for perimeter security? 6 A: Yes, basically Lacroix had been away 7 on vacation, as I understand it. It was his first day 8 back, so basically it was a -- this call was a briefing 9 of what we were -- kind of the status of the moment, is 10 probably the simplest terms. 11 Q: Okay. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Then if I could -- on page 20 at 8:30 16 there's a note, 17 "Mark Wright advise he's going to 18 debrief 1 and 2 ERT. John Carson still 19 on phone. Request he let him know how 20 he makes out after phone calls. Mark 21 Wright advises Les Kobayashi gone to 22 get MTO, ten (10) barriers, to have 23 them on standby. John Carson to Mark 24 Wright: When it's time, we will take 25 enough ERT to set the same up."

1 And what is that referring to, sir? 2 A: In regards to the barriers? 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: I believe the barriers we're talking 5 about there was setting barriers up along the edge of the 6 Park. It seems to me along the sandy parking lot, down 7 towards the beach area. It was to control access in and 8 out of the Park, as I recall. 9 Q: Okay. Now, at 8:34, there's a note 10 about Don Bell. 11 "Don Bell advises he's going to do 12 surveillance at the Park. Inspector 13 Carson: All we can do now." 14 And I note that in the scribe notes at 15 page 390, the handwritten scribe notes which is Exhibit 16 427, the scribe has noted: 17 "T.R., Don Bell bringing surveillance 18 van guy. [I can't read that] Anyone at 19 Park [then] J.C. - All we can do now." 20 So I take it "T.R." is Trevor Richardson? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And the -- can you read that? Did 23 Don -- 24 A: It's -- 25 Q: -- Bell bringing --

1 A: Surveillance van guy. It says "White 2 eye", actually it should have been Whitehead. 3 Q: White head? 4 A: It's the officer's name, Whitehead. 5 It's just a bit of a mix up in names. "Anyone at Park", 6 then "J.C. - All we can do now". 7 Q: And that particular entry has been 8 trans -- when it's been put into the typed logger tape 9 does not include the reference to Don -- to Trevor 10 Richardson as being the source of the information, nor 11 does it refer to -- is it Constable Whiteside? 12 A: Whitehead. 13 Q: ...Whitehead, in that entry? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And why would that be? 16 A: I have no explanation for why it is 17 other than it's the essence of the message that the 18 scribe captured and took some literary license to get 19 down what she thought was relevant. 20 Q: And what was relevant was that Don 21 Bell was going to do surveillance at the Park? 22 A: Yes, and it's in keeping with, you 23 know, my earlier comments, you know, if people provide me 24 information or I provide direction as -- as to how that 25 is captured.

1 Q: Okay. Then, at 8:34 there's a 2 discussion with Les Kobayashi? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And the -- it's with respect to the 5 injunction. Were you -- I take it you were part of this 6 conversation? 7 A: I believe so, yes. 8 Q: And in the -- if we look at page 390 9 of Exhibit 427. 10 A: Yes? 11 Q: There's an entry, it's 09:34. I take 12 it from the fact that the next entry is 8:42 that the 13 scribe simply made a mistake in the time? 14 A: Yes, correct. 15 Q: And the scribe in this case has 16 identified the speakers, L.C., L.C. -- I take it's Les 17 Kobayashi? 18 A: Yes, it is. 19 Q: "Talked to lawyer, waiting for 20 injunction." 21 Then, J.C., I take it that's you? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Marcel Beaubien calling Premier and I 24 note that it's -- that's in the typed version. Inspector 25 Carson advised that Marcel Beaubien had been in contact

1 with Sergeant Wade Lacroix and he advised that he was 2 calling the Premier. And the handwritten note says: 3 "Marcel Beaubien calling Premier; 4 that's fine, sit tight. Get 5 intelligence info. [And the reference] 6 Get ERT guys working in Park. Get 7 discussions. Some people have to be 8 arrested. Crime guys take care of 9 this." 10 And I note that the scribes, after the 11 Premier's -- reference to the Premier, left out, "that's 12 fine." 13 A: That's -- that's correct. 14 Q: And I know it's a long time ago, but 15 what's your recollection as to what you -- what "that's 16 fine" refers to? 17 A: Well, obviously it's a -- a comment 18 that I made and I guess what I'm reflecting there is, 19 That's fine so he's calling the Premier and we're going 20 to move forward getting more intelligence information and 21 what our work plans will be. 22 And it was just a status update that they 23 had some idea of what was going on behind the scenes and 24 I was briefing the -- the people there of -- of what 25 information I had from Lacroix. But the -- the reference

1 to, "that's fine" is -- is, I guess more than anything 2 else, is probably more indifference than anything else. 3 Q: Okay. Then, L.K. which is, I take 4 it, Les Kobayashi again in the handwritten notes at page 5 390: 6 "Post signs, 'Park Closed.' Fine [then 7 J.C.] -- fine about posting signs. 8 Take it slow." 9 That line is not referred to in the typed 10 notes? 11 A: That's -- that's correct. 12 Q: And: 13 "Fine about posting signs, take it 14 slow." 15 What were you referring to there, sir? 16 A: Well, what I'm referring to, it's -- 17 that's good that we have the signs posted, but let's -- 18 let's be very methodical and take it one (1) step at a 19 time. Let's not -- not rush thing. 20 Q: Okay. Then, there's the entry to: 21 "Tom Bressette agrees with what we're 22 doing." 23 And then, 24 "Sergeant J.C. -- Sergeant Moffitt 25 (phonetic) advised they have

1 communication person to take over. 2 Communication to advise they rotate 3 people around once we get set up. 4 J.C.: D.G. tape with supplies to be 5 brought here." 6 Then there's an entry: 7 "Ask J.C. if he was to answer phone. 8 J.C.: Fine." 9 And all of that was admitted from the 10 typed version. 11 A: Omitted. 12 Q: Omitted, yes. 13 A: Yes, yes, yes. 14 Q: And why was that omitted from the 15 typed version? 16 A: My assumption would be that it's 17 irrelevant to a direction in regards to the events that 18 are taking place. It's -- it's simply logistics. 19 Q: Okay. Then there's an entry at 8:50: 20 "8:48 Don -- Grant advised that Ken 21 Williams, Reeve of Bosanquet is here to 22 meet with him. Inspector Carson met." 23 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: Excuse me, Mr. 24 Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh.

1 MR. JULIAN FALCONER: It's not as much 2 by way of an objection as is that the seeking of 3 clarification. It's just that Deputy Commissioner Carson 4 has testified that he assumes that the reasons things 5 were omitted from the typed version is X or Y. 6 And if the assumption is based on pure 7 speculation versus he's been advised by the author or the 8 scribe notes, there's a difference and I'm simply asking 9 if My Friend, in seeking those explanations, could get 10 the basis for them. 11 Because it's been Deputy Carson's evidence 12 that he assumed something. I just -- I'm not -- it's not 13 clear to me certainly in the evidence as to where that 14 comes from. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 17 Q: I think you gave us -- you did give 18 evidence as to your instructions to the scribe and your 19 evidence as to the practice of the scribe as you 20 understood it and when you say -- make the statement, I 21 assume something, on what basis did you make that 22 statement? 23 A: I make that assumption from my own 24 recollection. I -- I've had no discussion during or 25 since 1995 with the scribes involved as to why they did

1 or didn't capture notes in a certain way. 2 So when I say "I assume," I'm -- it's my 3 best guess based on the direction I gave them and what 4 actually enters into the typewritten form from the 5 handwritten form, which seems to me a common sense 6 approach to complying with my direction. 7 Q: And the direction, as you told us 8 yesterday, was -- could you repeat what your direction 9 was again? 10 A: In any incident that I've been 11 involved or had been in that time period, the direction 12 would be the scribe is expected to capture all 13 information being provided to me that has a direct 14 relation to this event or where I give direction to 15 anyone else. 16 Q: And with respect to the types of 17 meetings that you had with Les Kobayashi and the meeting 18 now at 8:50 with Ken Williams, what were their -- what 19 were the instructions to the scribe with respect to those 20 types of meetings? 21 A: Well, I wouldn't have given specific 22 direction relative to any particular meeting. I would 23 just have had expected the scribe to capture the 24 information, for lack of a better term, on the run. 25 The only time there would be specific

1 direction for the most part would be where I had made a 2 telephone call or received a telephone call and the 3 scribe would not have heard the third party, I may have 4 turned to the scribe and said, Capture this, and provide 5 the direction as to the information I wanted captured. 6 Q: And Ken Reeves -- Ken Williams, 7 excuse me, that's referred to at 8:48 and then at 8:50, 8 is not the Reeve of Bosanquet Township. He's the 9 administrator, as I understand it? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And you did meet with him? 12 A: Oh, yes. 13 Q: And the -- one (1) of the questions 14 that he asked was, 15 "Ken Williams wanted to know if a 16 notice of trespass was served on the 17 occupants, advised that they would be 18 getting a court injunction regarding 19 Matheson Drive." 20 And can you tell us what that is about? 21 A: There was some discussion about 22 Matheson Drive and of course, there was issues there 23 about access at Matheson Drive and, you know, the process 24 that would be necessary to deal with the blocking of that 25 roadway.

1 Q: The note in the first paragraph 2 indicated: 3 "Ken Williams advised that he had been 4 talking to the Mayor about the 5 situation. Inspector Carson asked Ken 6 Williams what we can do for them. 7 Inspector Carson advised him that the 8 area is cordoned off, lots of officers 9 available. Public safety is 10 important." 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And then at the bottom of the page: 13 "Inspector Carson stated that they are 14 discussing barricading the area. For 15 his information only. Discussion was 16 made about getting an injunction." 17 Then at the top of the page: 18 "Ken Williams advised that his council 19 will agree with getting injunction. 20 Inspector Carson advised that we are 21 dealing with the Park issue, not the 22 road issue, but have to be prepared for 23 that. 24 And the road there as being referred to is 25 Matheson Drive?

1 A: Yes, sir, it is. 2 Q: "Ken Williams wanted to know what 3 they can help in this situation. 4 Inspector Carson advised him to talk to 5 the layers to get them to start 6 preparing the documents for the 7 injunction. 8 Explained that the party involved has 9 to be made aware of the injunction. 10 There has to be a reason to have the 11 injunction, e.g., trees down in the 12 road. It has to be confirmed. 13 Inspector Carson said heavy equipment 14 may be needed, but not at this point." 15 And that's a discussion -- comments you 16 made to Mr. Williams? 17 A: Yes, I was trying to alleviate his 18 concerns and at the same time, inform him of the 19 processes, the status of how we were proceeding with the 20 Provincial Park issue and to turn his mind to the 21 preparations necessary, if it was necessary to consider 22 an injunction for the roadway at a later point. 23 Q: Okay. And if I could just take you 24 to page 392 of Exhibit 427. 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: At the top of the page there's an 2 entry, starting at 8:50: 3 "K. William talking to Mayor re: 4 situation. J.C. [that's you, or] K.W. 5 talking to Mayor re: situation." 6 K.W. is Ken Williams? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: "J.C. 'Basically what we can do for 9 you, cordon off -- off area, lots of 10 officers available, public safety.'" 11 And then there's a line: 12 "People won't be outside of Park." 13 And that line's not included in the scribe 14 note; that's correct? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And what -- do you recall what you 17 were referring to, "people won't be outside of Park." 18 A: The occupiers. 19 Q: The occupiers? Then... 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: The discussion continued: 24 "Ken Williams wondered about 25 barricades. John Carson advised that

1 people can go to their homes. We just 2 want to know where they're going. They 3 discussed the people going into the 4 Park." 5 And the -- the barricades -- at this 6 point, were the -- the checkpoints -- some of the 7 checkpoints were up, the one at Silver Birch, I think -- 8 the Silver Birch cottages? 9 A: Yes, I believe most of the 10 checkpoints were in place by this point. 11 Q: And -- so that would be the four (4) 12 checkpoints with respect to the A, B, C, and D? 13 A: Yes, sir. 14 Q: Then there's a reference that -- 15 discussion goes on but it indicates that: 16 "Inspector Carson and Ken Williams 17 discussed Outer ride -- Outer Drive 18 area. Going to play it by ear." 19 Then, if you turn to page 394 of Exhibit 20 427, the note for you in the middle of the page with 21 respect of the discussion on Outer Drive indicates: 22 "J.C: Get controls. Not really a 23 safety issue. Any aggravation public 24 not in, have to play it by ear. Not a 25 concern, Outer Drive."

1 The words, "not a concern" are left out of 2 the typed scribe notes? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And what were you referring to when 5 you said, "not a concern?" 6 A: I believe that we felt there weren't 7 any issues on that side of the Military Base, that the 8 focus was over on the Park side. 9 Q: Thank you. Then it -- you go on to 10 say: 11 "John Carson informs Ken Williams that 12 MNR probably won't get an injunction 13 today. He states that we would like to 14 negotiate them out of the Park; it is 15 our preference." 16 And then there's an exchange of numbers: 17 "John Carson informs Ken Williams that 18 this area is a command area, not an 19 operations area. John Carson gives him 20 the new number for the front office." 21 And I take it -- why did you make this 22 statement to Mr. Williams? 23 A: Well, because the Forest Detachment 24 provides policing for the township of Bosanquet and I 25 just wanted him to understand that the Forest Detachment

1 was now a command area as opposed to an operational 2 Detachment, just so he'd understand for calls for regular 3 service were being provided from the office in Grand 4 Bend. 5 Q: And if I could take you to page 395 6 of Exhibit 427. 7 A: Yes? 8 Q: With the -- with respect to the 9 exchange of telephone numbers, there are some items: 10 "JC: Do not give it out. 11 KW: Okay. 12 JC: Cell no. 671-6086. Cell phone 13 secure, no soon." 14 That wasn't included in the typed logger 15 notes? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: Then, there's a note: 18 "Ken Williams inquires about number of 19 people we have here. John Carson 20 states about sixty (60)." 21 And then, if you go to page 396, there's a 22 note in the handwritten scribe notes: 23 "KW: Not much different, start 24 injunction. 25 JC: Trees down, get them out of way.

1 Play it by ear." 2 And that's not included in the typed 3 scribe notes? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: The next line: 6 "JC: Same wavelength like you are..." 7 is included in the typed scribe notes? 8 A: Yes, it is. 9 Q: Then, at... 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: My Friend Mr. Horton points out 14 that... 15 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: Commissioner, I 16 don't know if I'm the only one who's having trouble 17 following the evidence the way -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 19 difficult for everybody, but there's no other way. 20 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: No, I -- I 21 understand, but it just -- I just wanted to make the 22 observation that at least in my attempt to follow the 23 evidence, things seem to be in a different place in the 24 handwritten notes than in the typed notes. And so it's 25 not just a question of things not being included in one

1 and the other, but in some instances they are in 2 different places. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm finding 4 the same thing. 5 MR. WILLIAM HORTON: So therefore -- so 6 therefore, in leading the Witness, which I think we're 7 all -- we'd all like to get on with it, but the Witness 8 may be making assumptions that things are not there and 9 answering the questions because they're not in the right 10 order, but they may be somewhere else in the scribe 11 notes. 12 I just -- I just point that out, and if 13 there's an explanation or something, I would be happy to 14 receive it, but otherwise we may be spending a lot of 15 time on a false premise that if something is not in a 16 certain order, it's not there. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: There was a -- the point that My 22 Friend, Mr. Horton, makes is a -- I was trying to 23 identify some of these things that were missing -- that 24 were in the handwritten notes but in the typed notes; 25 that one happens to be there.

1 There's a note about playing it by ear. 2 Ken Williams -- there's a note on page 22, 3 "Ken Williams brought up declaring the 4 area a state of emergency. John Carson 5 advised that he didn't think so." 6 And what was that referring to? 7 A: Well, he suggested that the 8 municipality declare a state of emergency and I cautioned 9 him to not do that; that in my view that was not 10 necessary. I was trying to, for lack of a better term, 11 calm him down. He was somewhat animated about the 12 situation that was occurring. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: I was trying to assure him that we 15 had the situation in hand and that wasn't necessary to 16 take that step. 17 Q: Okay. Then at 9:02, Mr. Kobayashi is 18 back. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And there's a discussion about all -- 21 "Lieutenant Colin Mack Campbell shut 22 all the pumps off at the Park in case 23 the occupants decided to keep them 24 running." 25 And what's that refer to?

1 A: It was a -- it appears Colonel 2 Campbell had a concern about the -- the water supply to 3 the military base and was shutting the pumps down. 4 Q: Then there's a -- 5 "Mark wright brought up the issue of 6 intelligence logs to keep them going. 7 Inspector Carson agreed. ERT sergeant 8 to get a daily report of what happened 9 and give it to Janet Vandenberg." 10 And that's the intelligence log that we 11 referred to and was marked as an exhibit, Exhibit 413 at 12 Tab 5 of your book. Is that what's being referred to 13 here, sir? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: I'm not sure which book we're 18 referring to, sir. 19 Q: In the same book, book 1. It's the 20 big, black book. 21 A: Oh, yes. 22 Q: Or, when I look at that, though, 23 there -- if you look at that, there -- Exhibit... 24 A: It could fall into either log, 25 whether it's under Tab 4 or under Tab 5, depending on the

1 information but it would fall into one (1) of those two 2 (2) categories, the information that the ERT personnel 3 would capture and submit. 4 Q: But if I look at the -- if you look 5 at page 91 and 92 of Exhibit 13, the log that starts on 6 July 29th, it's Inquiry document number 2002890, there's 7 a -- 8 A: Which page of that, sir? 9 Q: It's page 91, the last two (2) pages, 10 sir. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: There's an entry for September 4th, 13 identifying a number of vehicles on that page and then 14 another entry, the same entry continues on the top of the 15 next page and there are no other entries in this 16 particular log. 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: And then if we go to Exhibit 411, at 19 Tab 4 of the black book in front of you, Inquiry document 20 2002889, there are entries for -- on the -- if you go to 21 the last four (4) pages at Tab -- there appears to be an 22 entry at page 66, September 3rd. The next entry is 23 September 6th at eleven o'clock. 24 And that's September 6th -- these, excuse 25 me, I'm in the wrong page. If you go to page 63, it

1 stops at August the 10th '95, Exhibit 411 and then 2 Exhibit 413 appear to take over for August but there are 3 no entries for September 5th and 6th? 4 A: That appears to be the case. 5 Q: So whatever the instruction, the log 6 wasn't maintained? 7 A: That -- that appears to be the issue. 8 Q: Is there another -- was there another 9 log at the time? 10 A: No, sir. 11 Q: Then you asked Inspector Carson 12 wanted to know about any incidents that happened 13 overnight. Detective Sergeant Wright stated that some of 14 the occupants mooned to some of the members and that was 15 the extent of what had happened overnight? 16 A: That was the report, yes. 17 Q: Then you called Staff Sergeant -- 18 Sergeant Babbitt? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the transcript for that call is 21 at Tab 5. It's a call at 9:04. 22 23 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED) 2 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I guess there's a 4 slight technical problem. We have to make sure that it's 5 -- when I know what's the beginning of the tape and it's 6 not coming on. 7 8 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 9 10 John CARSON and Doug BABBITT 11 12 September 5, 1995 13 TIME: 09:04:10 hours 14 Track 3.wav 15 16 CARSON: (to background) Oh finally going through 17 to 18 BABBITT I can't believe it. 19 MALE: (In background) Thanks for checking. 20 BABBITT: Sergeant BABBITT. 21 CARSON: Yeah, this is CNN calling. 22 BABBITT: Yes. 23 CARSON: How are ya? 24 BABBITT: Pretty good. 25 CARSON: John CARSON here.

1 BABBITT: (laughs) You dogger. 2 CARSON: (Laughing). 3 BABBITT: I was going to say God you sound close for 4 CNN. 5 CARSON: (Laughing) Just so that you know all calls 6 to me are are on recorder. 7 BABBITT: Okay. 8 CARSON: (Laughs). 9 BABBITT: That's good. 10 CARSON: Just I just so you know I just want you to 11 know ah but I'm available direct at seven 12 (7) eight (8) six (6) twelve (12) six (6) 13 two (2). If you give that out to anybody 14 you lose your life. 15 BABBITT: Okay. 16 CARSON: Okay. 17 BABBITT: That's a direct line. We're getting lots 18 of inquiries but nothing of a serious 19 nature. 20 CARSON: Okay. 21 BABBITT: Apparently the natives have they told us 22 why they're there. Like I've been saying 23 that no they officially haven't told us. 24 They say well we hear it's an Indian 25 burial ground. I said well maybe, maybe

1 that's what they are saying but they 2 haven't told us anything officially. 3 CARSON: That's right that's right they just say 4 it's their land. 5 BABBITT: Yeah okay. 6 CARSON: Okay. 7 BABBITT: Alright I just wondered if maybe there is 8 something there I didn't know but that's 9 good. 10 CARSON: Right we have we have to try and arrange 11 some meetings and discuss those issues. 12 BABBITT: Okay. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 BABBITT: (u/i) that's the other thing you know I'm 15 telling him that we're going to be meeting 16 with the Ministry of Natural Resources 17 officials sometime this morning. Is that 18 not true. 19 CARSON: Yeah, I already have. They've been here. 20 BABBITT: Okay. 21 CARSON: Yeah. 22 BABBITT: Um and they're asking you know what was 23 the outcome of that meeting. I said I 24 don't know cause they haven't had it. 25 CARSON: Right. Well we're, we're ah working

1 towards a court injunction. 2 BABBITT: Okay. 3 CARSON: Okay. The Ministry ah is ah ah going to 4 ah ah pursue ah a Court injunction to ah. 5 BABBITT: Okay. 6 CARSON: Against the natives. 7 BABBITT: Is that is that okay to ah to say that 8 now. 9 CARSON: Yep, yep, yep. 10 BABBITT: Okay. 11 CARSON: Yep it's no secret. 12 BABBITT: Okay I just don't want to say something 13 and then end up. 14 CARSON: No I hear yah I hear yah that's fine. 15 BABBITT: Okay and then they said they're going to 16 arrange for me to bring my computer from 17 Chatham down here. 18 CARSON: Okay. 19 BABBITT: And ah. 20 CARSON: You you have a fax over there no. 21 BABBITT: Ah (u/i) the fax is all setup and 22 everything else. 23 CARSON: Okay. 24 BABBITT: It's a private line. 25 CARSON: Okay.

1 BABBITT: In here and we're going to get another 2 line for the MNR for their um e-mail. 3 CARSON: Okay okay so you're all you're in good 4 shape then. 5 BABBITT: Yep Bill DENNIS is looking after us. I 6 was upset this morning and he took me 7 under his wind and said Doug, you didn't 8 ask. 9 CARSON: Well there you go see. 10 BABBITT: And I said that I've asked now Bill so 11 he's looking after me. 12 CARSON: Okay. 13 MALE: (laughing). 14 CARSON: Well that that just you know, ask and you 15 receive. 16 BABBITT: I you don't have to listen to my babbling. 17 CARSON: No no that's okay. 18 BABBITT: (laughing). 19 CARSON: Okay that's good if ah like I say if you 20 have any concerns that are coming up like 21 I I don't have any problem if you call me 22 direct. Uh 23 BABBITT: Okay. 24 CARSON: You can do that. I you may get ah you'll 25 get probably Bunk okay.

1 BABBITT: Yep. 2 CARSON: And ah, he may tell you I'm ten-six (10-6) 3 or not ten-six (10-6). 4 BABBITT: Yep. 5 CARSON: Whatever and if I'm available I'll 6 certainly try and address it as quickly as 7 we can. Ah we've had a I've had ah for 8 your information, we've had ah (u/i) if 9 there is if asked we've had ah direct 10 contact with ah the Township of or the 11 Town of Bosanquest. 12 BABBITT: Okay. 13 CARSON: And ah Kettle ah Point ah Chief Tom 14 BRESSETTE. 15 BABBITT: Okay. 16 car Okay. 17 BABBITT: Alright. 18 CARSON: Okay. 19 BABBITT: Thanks John. 20 CARSON: Thanks. 21 BABBITT: Yep. Bye Bye. 22 23 End of conversation. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:

1 Q: And that conversation with -- in that 2 conversation Sergeant Babbitt asked you about the -- an 3 Indian burial ground. The information that, as he put 4 it, apparently the Natives: 5 "Have they told us why they're there? 6 Like, I've been saying that no, they 7 officially haven't told us. They say, 8 Well, we're here, it's an Indian burial 9 ground. I said, Well, maybe -- maybe 10 that's what they're saying, but they 11 haven't told us anything official. 12 Carson: That's right. That's right, 13 they just say it's their land." 14 And at this point in time had you been 15 told by anyone after the beginning of the occupation 16 about an Indian -- a burial ground on the Park? 17 A: Not that I'm aware of, no. 18 Q: And prior to September 4th, had you 19 been told by anyone that there was an indication that 20 there might be a burial ground in the Park? 21 A: There had been commentary to that 22 affect made by, I believe, some of the occupiers, not to 23 me directly, but certainly I was made aware, but there 24 was no indication that, in fact, that was the case. I 25 think if you recall, Tom Bressette and I had some

1 discussion about that and there was no -- no reason for 2 me to believe that that, in fact, was the case. 3 Q: Okay. Now, then at 9:25 on page 24 4 there's a note and is this a -- it's John Carson, Trevor 5 Richardson, Mark Wright, Bill Dennis, Brad Seltzer, Stan 6 Korosec, Don Bell and that -- what does this refer to? 7 A: This is a briefing. 8 Q: And this is a briefing that took 9 place on a regular basis? 10 A: Yes, we were attempting to -- to do 11 that. This was one (1) of the earlier ones and I suspect 12 towards the end of that briefing we would have set a time 13 for the next briefing. 14 So, what we were trying to do was set up a 15 series of ongoing meetings to discuss the status at the 16 time, discuss the things that needed to be done, provide 17 direction and then agree to meet at a certain point, 18 usually within the next couple of hours to review how the 19 progress is moving along. 20 Q: And the first entry is with respect 21 to doing surveillance using binoculars, taking pictures 22 to try and identify people and that's -- if I could take 23 you to page 399 of Exhibit 427... 24 A: Yes? 25 Q: In the typed -- in the handwritten

1 version of the notes, there's a entry: 2 "J: John, Jimmy Dyke, Whitehead do 3 surveillance, binocular camera thing 4 identified people." 5 Is -- who's being referred to there, "J", 6 do you know? 7 A: I'm not sure, but it appears in the 8 note -- in the hand or the scribe notes, the typed 9 version that it's Trevor Richardson stating that. 10 Q: Oh, perhaps that's a "T" and I -- but 11 the typed version doesn't include the names of the 12 officers who are going to do the work? 13 A: That's correct. 14 Q: And that was Mr. Whitehead and Mr. 15 Dyke? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: Then one (1) of the things that you 18 wanted was to get a boat from Grand Bend? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And a boat was ultimately obtained? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And then Mr. Richardson advised they 23 were preparing warrants for Roderick George and Abraham 24 David George and Stewart George. 25 Is that correct?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that's with respect to the 3 incidents on September 4th? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And then you advised the group: 6 "John Carson advises that Tom 7 Bressette's on board. Agrees, thinks 8 they're criminals. Ken Williams are 9 getting 10 legal advice for an injunction on 11 Matheson Drive. 12 Town of Bosanquet has advised they will 13 provide any heavy equipment that is 14 needed to remove trees from Matheson 15 Drive. Have a status check on the 16 trees in the road, but do not 17 broadcast. Have one (1) of the ERT 18 guys check it." 19 And then if I could take you to page 400 20 in Exhibit 427, the handwritten notes. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: There's -- at the last -- in the 23 middle of the page in this -- with respect to this 24 particular entry, there's some handwriting: 25 "[Something] security they will do.

1 Have someone dressed like Stan do it." 2 Do you know what the first word is? 3 A: "Adequate security they will do. 4 Have someone dressed like Stan do it." 5 Q: And that's not included in the scribe 6 notes, typed scribe notes? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: I can't see it. 10 Q: What's included is: 11 "Have one (1) of the ERT guys check it 12 out."? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Then Richardson, back to page 24, 15 "Richardson enquires about MNR. John 16 Carson replies MNR is working on an 17 injunction. Trevor Richardson requests 18 that we have them fax it, we will need 19 it." 20 And then at the top of page 25: 21 "John Carson discussed issues about 22 injunction. Stated that the party of 23 the injunction is against. Has the 24 option to appear. Doubtful it will 25 happen today. Advised that sergeant --

1 Staff Sergeant Lacroix has been in 2 contact with Marcel Beaubien, local 3 member of parliament. He is updating 4 the Premier on the situation." 5 And if I could take you to page -- at the 6 bottom of page 400 and the top of page 401 of the typed 7 written -- the handwritten notes, there's a word 8 "federal" that's missing from -- that's included in the 9 handwritten notes that's not included in the typewritten 10 version. 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And "federal," what's being referred 13 to by "federal"? 14 A: That would be the Federal Member of 15 Parliament, I would suspect. 16 Q: And that the person who -- Rosemary 17 Ur was the Federal Member of Parliament, and she had 18 called you? 19 A: She did, yes. 20 Q: Then in any other of the incidents 21 that you were involved in, barricaded persons, had -- and 22 there were a number before this period of time you've 23 told us, or other incidents; had you ever received a call 24 from either the Federal Member of the Parliament or the 25 local MPP?

1 A: Never. 2 Q: And the -- with respect to the 3 incidents that you were involved in, they were incidents 4 involving individuals? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And could you just tell us a little 7 about the incidents you'd been involved in before? 8 A: Well, usually the incidents -- well, 9 I guess -- well I guess maybe some incidents since may 10 differ but prior to that time the majority of the calls 11 where barricaded gun persons, suicidal individuals, 12 hostage type situations; usually violent confrontations 13 gone bad, those types of incidents. 14 Now usually those are resolved in a matter 15 of, I believe probably the longest one we had was maybe 16 thirty-six (36) forty-eight (48) hours but generally 17 resolved within twelve (12) hours. 18 But even in those cases and there have 19 been some that were completed say on other First Nations 20 territories like Moraviantown or Six Nations, we had 21 representatives of council involved. 22 And it would not be unusual maybe to not 23 have -- it would be unusual to have a Member of 24 Parliament but it would not be unusual to have a local 25 representative. Particularly if you're in a community

1 where we had to do evacuation. Or if it was a community 2 that disrupted the business area of the community. 3 And there were certainly the odd occasion 4 where we would assist the municipal department where they 5 would have some contact with their municipal officials. 6 So it was usually that kind of a relationship to -- to 7 help broadcast the message. 8 Often times, for instance, in a rail 9 derailment, I've been incident commander in those kinds 10 of situations where the reeves of the community would be 11 involved and they would speak to the media and look for 12 our guidance and there would be discussion about 13 necessity of evacuation, the length of time that was 14 necessary. So it was all around community interest. 15 Q: Okay. And did those community -- 16 engage the community interest as opposed to dealing with 17 the provincial and federal property? 18 A: That would be fair. 19 Q: Now there's a note: 20 "John Carson wants preparation for a 21 meeting with the occupants. Wants Brad 22 Seltzer in on it to be a spokesperson. 23 Check with Lorne Smith on his 24 availability to be part of the 25 negotiations. Wants to keep the

1 negotiator at lower levels such as a 2 sergeant or staff sergeant." 3 And that's with respect to what; this 4 entry? 5 A: We were -- we wanted to get dialogue 6 established with the occupiers and Brad Seltzer as -- 7 well he -- he was identified as a negotiator but not 8 necessarily a -- he's a crisis negotiator as opposed to a 9 land claim negotiator. 10 And I hope I can differentiate the two (2) 11 different tasks, but he has a very high ability to 12 establish relationships and -- and speak to people. And 13 he's one that along with Lorne Smith who had a -- a very 14 high knowledge of the area and the people involved that 15 thought they would be two (2) very good individuals to 16 try to establish some contact. 17 Q: And then the reference to keep the 18 negotiator at lower levels such as sergeant or staff 19 sergeant? 20 A: Well, what I wanted to do was 21 establish some dialogue. But I wanted to establish, for 22 instance, at a sergeant rank or -- or a staff sergeant 23 level because I didn't want the necessity for myself to 24 have to go out and start doing the negotiations, because 25 then that precludes my ability to do the other tasks that

1 are necessary. 2 And the way negotiations usually work is 3 someone tries to find out what the issue is, they bring 4 it back and then we'll see how we can address those 5 concerns. 6 So it was just trying to, you know, set 7 the ground rules for how we could, you know, work it 8 through, should we able -- be able to establish dialogue. 9 Q: And then there's a note: 10 "John Carson gather information on 11 what's going on in the Park, whether we 12 can people in there. Want to get ERT 13 members in the Park and keep them 14 there." 15 And what's that referring to? 16 A: That goes back to the 17 discussion earlier about attempting to cohabit in -- in 18 the Park and whether that was feasible or not. And 19 basically it was trying to develop some information to -- 20 to -- to look at that option, but, in fact, that never 21 came to pass. 22 Q: Okay. Then the bottom of the page, 23 and I'm skipping over some of these entries, Inspector -- 24 Deputy Carson. If there's any entries that I skip over 25 that you would like to draw to the Commissioner's

1 attention, please do so. 2 The -- then there's a note: 3 "Stan Korosec inquires: what about 4 barriers? 5 John Carson: MNR arranging for 6 barriers to be delivered. Put barriers 7 on beach access, Base side." 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: And what's that referring to? It's 10 the barriers I think you've spoken about before? 11 A: Yes, and -- and I -- I guess I stand 12 to be corrected, because I was thinking in my earlier 13 thoughts anyway, that we're talking about access to the 14 beach area by the Sandy Parking Lot, but this indicates 15 we're talking about access to the beach area on the 16 Military Base side of the Park that would be adjacent to 17 Matheson Drive. 18 Q: And do you recall what the purpose of 19 putting the barriers on the beach access, Base side, was? 20 A: Just to control the flow of traffic. 21 Q: From the Base side of the beach to 22 the Park side of the beach? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: Now, that's assuming that you could 25 go down Matheson Drive or along the beachfront to put the

1 barriers in place? 2 A: Yes, there were some strong 3 assumptions there. 4 Q: And on September 5th, that had not -- 5 did not happen? 6 A: It did not occur. 7 Q: And -- nor on September 6th? 8 A: No, sir. 9 Q: And it never occurred? 10 A: Never occurred. 11 Q: Then, there's -- at the top of page 12 26, there's a reference: 13 "Trevor Richardson suggested that any 14 vehicles we can get to can be towed. 15 John Carson: Tow the cars out of 16 there. Ask Sergeant Korosec if there 17 was any ERT concerns. Stan Korosec 18 advised good bodies will be a 19 confrontation if it goes." 20 And what is that referring to? 21 A: I believe that there -- that the 22 discussion there is about if we towed some vehicles that 23 we were probably going to be faced with a confrontation 24 while were doing that. 25 Q: And where were the vehicles -- the

1 vehicles that were being towed, where were they? 2 A: I -- and -- and this is an assumption 3 again on my part, but I believe we're talking about this 4 barrier installation and vehicles in and around that 5 area, if there were vehicles left in the way there. 6 Q: Okay. And on September the 5th, were 7 any vehicles towed in and around the Park? 8 A: None. 9 Q: On September 6th, were any vehicles 10 towed in and around the Park? 11 A: No, sir. 12 Q: Then: 13 "John Carson: If we get an 14 opportunity to get in, arrest suspects, 15 get in and get out with them. Mark 16 Wright advises getting a warrant for 17 Glenn George. Get pictures to show the 18 Number 3 District officers who have 19 just arrived." 20 And that's -- what's that referring to? 21 A: That's referring to the persons that 22 we were in the process of getting the warrants for. 23 Q: And if I could take you to page 402 24 of Exhibit 427... 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: There's a reference at the top of the 4 page: 5 "Three (3) guys won't know anyone." 6 That's not been carried over into the 7 scribe notes. What -- that's attributed to you, what -- 8 do you recall that statement? 9 A: The -- the essence of that statement 10 on page 26, I believe, is captured by, "Get pictures to 11 show the Number 3 District officers who have just 12 arrived." 13 Q: And your concern was what? 14 A: Identifying the persons who would be 15 subject of arrest. 16 Q: And then there's a note: 17 "John Carson advised that St. John's 18 have provided an ambulance. Bill 19 Dennis advised that the ambulance was 20 on standby. John Carson advised that 21 the St. John's Ambulance can be used 22 for twenty-four (24) hour coverage and 23 can be driven by our Members. Have it 24 down at scene." 25 And if I could take you to the scribe

1 notes at page 402, there's an entry: 2 "St. Johns have stuff, generator here. 3 Ambulance here. Our group can drive 4 it." 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: Our guys. 8 Q: "Our guys can drive it." The 9 reference to "generator here" has been admitted. What -- 10 do you recall today what your reference to "generator 11 here" was to? 12 A: I -- I believe the generator had to 13 do with a generator being used down at the TOC site -- 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: -- at the MNR parking lot. 16 Q: And was there an actual ambulance -- 17 St. John's ambulance at the TOC site at the MNR parking 18 lot on September 5th? 19 A: Apparently what it was, was a St. 20 John van. I was of the mistaken impression, quite 21 frankly, that it was a -- a -- an equipped ambulance, but 22 in fact it was a van with very -- with some equipment on 23 board, but not equipped as a basic ambulance would be. 24 Q: And when did you learn that your 25 assumption that it was a fully equipped ambulance was

1 wrong? 2 A: Several years later. 3 Q: After the incident? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Then there's a reference -- John -- 6 third reference from the bottom: 7 "John Carson: Once we get in the Park, 8 remember public safety. 9 Stan Korosec: Put as many in the -- 10 people in the Park as possible." 11 And again, what's that referring to? 12 A: Again, that was the strategy around 13 the possibility of cohabitating in the Park, and putting 14 officers to remain in there. 15 Q: All right. And then at the bottom of 16 the page: 17 "Mark Wright arranging for a chopper to 18 attend." 19 And that's a helicopter? 20 A: Yes, it is. 21 Q: And why did you want a helicopter? 22 A: We wanted to be able to have the 23 ability to monitor from the air, to put an observer up 24 there and also to video, to determine how many people 25 were in the Park at any given time.

1 Q: And in fact, at the top of the next 2 page, Mark Wright states that it's a way to see activity 3 in the Park? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And who was Inspector Roberston who's 6 referred to on page 27? 7 A: He was an inspector responsible for, 8 I believe we called it field coordination at that time. 9 But the -- the branch at general headquarters in Orillia 10 that provided the air services for the organization. 11 Q: Okay. Then there's a note: 12 "Bill Dennis advised that he is ranging 13 -- arranging for a computer for 14 Sergeant Babbit to be used for 15 preparing media releases. Going to 16 keep Staff Sergeant Bouwman informed 17 because people are calling him." 18 And Staff Sergeant Bouwman, at this point, 19 was the Detachment Commander in Forest who had been moved 20 to Grand Bend? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: Then there's a note: 23 "Stan Korosec asked about the use of 24 the TRU team. 25 John Carson: Get an assessment of the

1 situation. Every hour have a briefing 2 so everyone knows what's going on." 3 What is the reference to the TRU team, the 4 use of the TRU team? 5 A: I don't recall what the particular 6 reference was to, but at this point in time there was no 7 assignment that was relevant to a TRU -- a TRU team 8 tasking. 9 Q: Then Mark Wright -- there's a note 10 third from the bottom: 11 "Mark Wright brought up the issue of 12 having an MNR representative attend our 13 hourly reading -- meetings. 14 John Carson stated, 'Yeah, you're 15 right. We should have a representative 16 here.'" 17 And did that happen? Did a representative 18 of MNR start to attend your hourly meetings? 19 A: Yes. For the most part Les Kobayashi 20 attended pretty regularly. He, I think I alluded 21 earlier, was the Superintendent of the Pinery and 22 Ipperwash Provincial Parks. 23 And that would provide him the opportunity 24 to be aware, provide input as he knew it, and of course 25 to keep his superiors informed as to the status of the

1 ongoing occupation. 2 Q: Then Brad Seltzer brings up the issue 3 of the negotiator. And at the top of page 28 is the 4 reference -- at the bottom of page 27: 5 "Brad Seltzer stated that the 6 negotiator should know what's going on 7 and that the negotiator shouldn't 8 change, it should be the same one all 9 along. 10 John Carson advised that that was a 11 good idea." 12 And what did you understand was being 13 suggested by Mr. Seltzer at this point? 14 A: It was just a matter of keeping the - 15 - the lead negotiator in the loop, that if we had to 16 press the into action in a crisis negotiation role, that 17 there wouldn't be a need to bring somebody up to speed, 18 they'd already know what's happening. 19 Q: Okay. Then a note: 20 "Mark Wright wants to have Vinnie 21 George meet with the occupants at noon 22 hour." 23 That's Constable Vince George? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: "John Carson instructed Brad Seltzer

1 to go with him. Mark Wright to check 2 with Stan Korosec and have Vinnie 3 attend here at 11:00 hours." 4 And as I understand it, Brad Seltzer and 5 Vince George did not go at noon that day? 6 A: I don't -- 7 Q: Perhaps, we'll get to it. Do you 8 recall? 9 A: I couldn't tell you from the top of 10 my head, I'd have to check further in the notes. 11 Q: Then at Tab 6 of the book in front of 12 you there's a telephone conversation that you had, that's 13 referred to at 9:51 hours in this book. But on the 14 actual -- at Tab 6 the reference is to 9:43 and the 15 actual line -- the actual tape that we've got starts at 16 page 2 where you answer the phone "hello". 17 And again, with respect to the times here, 18 there's about seven (7), eight (8) minutes difference in 19 the times. And the logger tape, I think you said 20 earlier, would be the more accurate time? 21 A: Correct. At least consistent anyhow. 22 Q: At least consistent? And this is a 23 briefing by you of Superintendent Parkin? 24 A: Yes, it appears he called me and I 25 gave him an update.

1 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT BELOW) 2 3 John CARSON and Tony PARKIN 4 5 September 5, 1995 6 TIME: 09:43:48 hours 7 Track 1.wav 8 9 CARSON: Hello. 10 PARKIN: Good morning John. 11 CARSON: How are yah? 12 PARKIN: Well I'm good. 13 CARSON: Good good. 14 PARKIN: And I don't like to be bothering you. 15 CARSON: No that's no problem as a matter of fact I 16 wanted to call you guys ah right shortly. 17 We just had a little briefing here and I 18 was ah doing one of natures important 19 things. 20 PARKIN: Okay just before you get on with that. 21 CARSON: Yeah. 22 PARKIN: Um. We were in here ah talking. 23 CARSON: Uh huh. 24 PARKIN: Um. Basically what we don't want to 25 bother you.

1 CARSON: Yes. 2 PARKIN: What we would like is ah if you like ah if 3 you can call me. 4 CARSON: Yes. 5 PARKIN: Ah the Chief he's on the phone to Ron FOX 6 now and he will handle Gerry BOOSE and 7 (u/i). 8 CARSON: Okay. 9 PARKIN: And he's expecting a call from the 10 Commissioner. 11 CARSON: Okay. 12 PARKIN: Ah if you will deal with me. 13 CARSON: Yes. 14 PARKIN: Okay rather than me calling you if we 15 could at least establish that you will 16 call me at some periodic times. 17 CARSON: Okay. 18 PARKIN: So that. 19 CARSON: Yeah. 20 PARKIN: If I don't have up to date the information 21 that we can tell them we will be talking 22 to the Incident Commander at such and such 23 a time. 24 CARSON: Good. 25 PARKIN: Unless it's an emergency and then you call

1 anytime. 2 CARSON: Right okay and what I'll do I'll give you 3 a phone number here that's a direct line 4 into the Command Post is for me. 5 PARKIN: I've got that one(1) two (2) six (6) two 6 (2). 7 CARSON: That's right. 8 PARKIN: Okay I've got that. 9 CARSON: So if you need to call you should be able 10 to get, if you if you get a busy signal on 11 that I'm on it. 12 PARKIN: Yeah exactly. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 PARKIN: But and and we appreciate like, I wouldn't 15 want to be being bothered by phone calls 16 so I'd rather much rather it come from 17 you. 18 CARSON: Yeah. 19 PARKIN: This way. 20 CARSON: Okay. So ah what would you like two (2) 21 hours. Every two (2) hours. 22 PARKIN: That'll be fine. 23 CARSON: Okay. So ah we look now the next one ah 24 no later than twelve (12) o'clock. 25 PARKIN: Okay.

1 CARSON: Before you break for lunch you will have 2 something the next. 3 PARKIN: That's great. 4 CARSON: Update. 5 PARKIN: That's great. 6 CARSON: Ah we had a meeting here just a few 7 minutes ago and we intend to have another 8 one at eleven (11) o'clock to get another 9 look at it. 10 PARKIN: Okay I can I just ask you a couple of 11 preliminary questions? 12 CARSON: Yeap. 13 PARKIN: Of the Chief that I have. 14 CARSON: Okay. 15 PARKIN: And they are quick hits. 16 CARSON: Yep. 17 PARKIN: Ah. 18 CARSON: By the way this is all all this phone 19 stuff is on on recorder in the Command 20 Post here. 21 PARKIN: That's fine. 22 CARSON: Okay just so you know. 23 PARKIN: And okay thanks and the only ah the reason 24 is of course Hutch is out West. 25 CARSON: Yes.

1 PARKIN: (laughs) and he attended your meeting. 2 CARSON: Oh yes. 3 PARKIN: (u/i). 4 CARSON: Yes, yes. 5 PARKIN: So. 6 CARSON: A good representative he was too. 7 PARKIN: Operational Plan. 8 CARSON: Yes, It's done. 9 PARKIN: Is there a copy somewhere. 10 CARSON: Yes they're all here and in fact I wanted 11 to get one down to the Chief ah today. 12 PARKIN: Okay. 13 CARSON: Ah. 14 PARKIN: So that's forthcoming. 15 CARSON: Yeah we'd have to arrange how we get it 16 down there that's all. 17 PARKIN: Well um, what I'll do is I'll do that. 18 CARSON: Okay. 19 PARKIN: I'll get somebody from two (2). 20 CARSON: Okay. 21 PARKIN: To just go there and get it. 22 CARSON: Okay. 23 PARKIN: (U/i) Operational or (u/i) do you have fax 24 capabilities? 25 CARSON: Oh Jeez, it's too big to fax. It's a it's

1 a binder. 2 PARKIN: All right, (u/i) operations plan. 3 CARSON: Okay. 4 PARKIN: And ah so you've got it and will obtain 5 it. 6 CARSON: Right. 7 PARKIN: A spokesperson for the group. 8 CARSON: Ah we haven't ah ah a name because they 9 keep, it looks like Bruce MANNING err Bert 10 MANNING I mean. Ah but that that seems to 11 change ah. We spoke to them last night to 12 some degree tried to serve them a notice 13 and they said they would talk to us at 14 noon today. 15 PARKIN: Okay. Ah the press is reporting that it's 16 the Chippewa's the Tims that are in there. 17 CARSON: Okay. 18 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And the transcript has a -- doesn't - 22 - it's -- it should be "Thames" -- T-H-A-M-E-S rather 23 than the "Thames" that's in the transcript, Chippewa of 24 the Thames. 25

1 (AUDIOTAPE PLAYED, TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED BELOW) 2 3 4 PARKIN: That's incorrect. 5 CARSON: Is the Stoney Point people who are 6 occupying the base. I spoke with Tom 7 BRESSETTE the Chief. 8 PARKIN: Stoney with an E. 9 CARSON: Yes. 10 PARKIN: Ah Stoney Point. So they're the same 11 people that the militants from the 12 occupiers from the camp. 13 CARSON: Right. 14 PARKIN: Okay. 15 CARSON: And ah I spoke with Chief BRESSETTE and ah 16 there there's absolutely no support 17 whatsoever from the elected community. 18 PARKIN: Oh okay, um, demands. 19 CARSON: Ah none ah it's just it's their land. The 20 ah park and Matheson Drive. Um our 21 information is we okay just to give you 22 the kind of readers digest version of what 23 happened last night like ah there like 24 they swarmed in there and they got into a 25 verbal barrage. A back window of a

1 cruiser was ah smashed out. Ah and there 2 was a flare thrown at one of our guys and. 3 PARKIN: What time was that? 4 CARSON: Ah that all started at seven (7) thirty 5 (30). 6 PARKIN: So that was after the campers were out. 7 CARSON: Well there was, campers were out but there 8 was still day use people in there. 9 PARKIN: Oh yeah. 10 CARSON: And they were ah ah evacuated by MNR and 11 our people. 12 PARKIN: Okay. 13 CARSON: Okay. 14 PARKIN: So how did we get into an altercation just 15 protecting ourself? 16 CARSON: Yeah we were just in there and they wanted 17 us out basically. 18 PARKIN: Uhum. 19 CARSON: And ah they just confronted our people who 20 were there and got into a barrage to get 21 off their land. 22 PARKIN: Uhum. 23 CARSON: Okay. 24 PARKIN: Any OPP officers hurt? 25 CARSON: No none.

1 PARKIN: Where they told at that time that they 2 were trespassing? 3 CARSON: Yes. 4 PARKIN: Okay. 5 CARSON: And they went back with ah around eleven 6 (11) thirty (30) with ah Superintendent of 7 the Park, Les KOBAYASHI. 8 PARKIN: Uhum. 9 CARSON: And ah although they weren't able to 10 deliver or to hand over a copy of a notice 11 ah ah they did have conversation with 12 somebody at the gate who who would not 13 accept accept it, you know they just kept 14 backing away from them. But they are 15 aware we have a piece of paper for them, 16 that in in fact relative to the 17 trespassing issue. 18 PARKIN: And that that piece of paper is. 19 CARSON: It's just a notice that ah the park is 20 officially closed by the Superintendent 21 and they are trespassers. MNR is pursuing 22 an injunction. 23 PARKIN: Okay they are pursuing? 24 CARSON: Yes. 25 PARKIN: Okay. Um. Um. How did they set up the

1 video? Is the case where somebody has to 2 go in and retrieve tapes? 3 CARSON: Oh for for ah the surveillance? 4 PARKIN: Yeah. 5 CARSON: Ah, that's being fed back to Grand Bend 6 Detachment. 7 PARKIN: Is it working? 8 CARSON: Well the problem you got is we have to 9 have authorization to turn it on. 10 PARKIN: That's for the audio eh? 11 CARSON: And video. They have to have a general 12 warrant for that. Okay and our crime guys 13 are working on that with the Crown 14 Attorney as to what we need in order to 15 make that happen and you know, ah. 16 PARKIN: And that's different than the information 17 we got from HUTCH. 18 CARSON: Well that's my understanding too, but they 19 we were talking to the Crown Attorney last 20 night on it. 21 PARKIN: So that's being followed up on? 22 CARSON: Yep. T (u/i) T (u/i). 23 PARKIN: As we speak. 24 CARSON: Yes. 25 PARKIN: Cause that's important.

1 CARSON: Yep absolutely. 2 PARKIN: (u/i) back to Grand Bend. 3 CARSON: And and they broke into the maintenance 4 shack by the way. 5 PARKIN: Uhum. Ah yeah Jeez I hope we can get that 6 up and running today. 7 CARSON: Well I hope so. 8 PARKIN: (u/i) warrant. They must be saying that 9 that's the same as our ident people going 10 in then. 11 CARSON: Yeah. 12 PARKIN: Or video. Okay. Current status of the 13 situation? 14 CARSON: Oh, well we have ah checkpoints set up on 15 ah twenty-one (21) and Army Camp Road and 16 then down the Army Camp Road at the last 17 residence prior to the park to control 18 traffic in and out and on Parkway Road 19 which runs lake front, ah. 20 PARKIN: Okay, you got a checkpoint at twenty-one 21 (21) and Army Camp. 22 CARSON: Yeah. 23 PARKIN: And then at. 24 CARSON: Where the last residence is, I think it's 25 called Silver Birch Cottages or something

1 like that which is the last one prior to 2 the military or the ah park itself. 3 PARKIN: Okay. 4 CARSON: When you come down that road. 5 PARKIN: And I know Silver Birch Park ground. 6 CARSON: Yeah. 7 PARKIN: Silver Birch trailer camp and then where? 8 CARSON: And then on Parkway Road which is, runs 9 along lakefront. So just just up the road 10 where the houses start there and then at 11 west Ipperwash and ah ah and ah Parkway. 12 So if you went to Ravenswood and cut over 13 to the lake. 14 PARKIN: Uh huh. 15 CARSON: Well where that turns on Parkway, it's a 16 checkpoint there. 17 PARKIN: So how close is our inner perimeter? 18 CARSON: Not very, ah were probably half a 19 kilometre out. 20 PARKIN: So we don't have Matheson Drive. 21 CARSON: No there's ah trees across Matheson Drive. 22 Apparently and we got ah ah Jimmy DYKE and 23 Donny BELL up here and they're going down 24 there now to have a have a look see. Ah 25 we don't know you know it appears they may

1 even have for the most part went back into 2 the military base ah through the night. 3 We don't know to what degree and we're 4 asking for the helicopter as we speak to 5 come down so we can have a look from 6 above. 7 PARKIN: So I guess what I'm hearing is we don't 8 have containment. 9 CARSON: Not well we don't know what we have like 10 we we don't have containment as as we 11 normally understand it, no. 12 PARKIN: So they can go in between the park and the 13 grounds without us being aware. 14 CARSON: That's right and what they've done is 15 they've locked Matheson Drive gate so you 16 can't get down it at this point and 17 they've also cut a whole in the fence so 18 they can drive right through the end of 19 the park, you know free wheel right out 20 there. 21 PARKIN: Ah do we have any Marine in the water? 22 CARSON: Ah that's being done as we speak. 23 PARKIN: Okay. And your next meeting is at ah 24 twelve (12) o'clock? 25 CARSON: Ah eleven (11).

1 PARKIN: Okay. 2 CARSON: Ah we're our guys are the crime guys are 3 getting ah our pursuant three warrants for 4 the incidence involving the cruiser and ah 5 the flare and that. We know we have 6 identified the people involved. 7 PARKIN: Warrants being obtained. 8 CARSON: Now we're if if the 9 PARKIN: (U/i) charges Mischief. 10 CARSON: Ah there's ah yeah Mischief and then there 11 will be ah. 12 PARKIN: Assault Police. 13 CARSON: Ah yeah Assault Police and probably a 14 Possession of Weapon Dangerous or 15 something along that line. 16 PARKIN: And um subjects ah identified. 17 CARSON: Yep. 18 PARKIN: So we're getting warrants by name. 19 CARSON: Right. Hopefully you know ah and and we 20 will once we obtain the warrants we will 21 make a press release on that. 22 PARKIN: Uhum. 23 CARSON: And hopefully an opportunity will p9resent 24 itself that we can scoop those guys. We 25 don't know if we can or we can't MR. DAVID

1 BUTT: you know I think we have lots of 2 people here in daylight ah that we may be 3 able to ah get into the park while I we 4 know they've parked some junk CARSON: in 5 around the entrance to the you know the 6 normal driveway but we don't know to what 7 degree. So if we can develop that 8 information and see then maybe we can put 9 the ERT right back inside the park if we 10 can get access. 11 PARKIN: Ah ah I'm only going to ask this question 12 because I'm sure that the Chief is 13 probably going to ask it. How did we ah 14 given the fact we have people there when 15 this all happened. How did we lose 16 containment? (U/i). 17 CARSON: Ah well it was a matter of safety. Like 18 somebody is going to get their head caved 19 in if we'd of stayed in there. 20 PARKIN: Okay. 21 CARSON: Cause they were really getting getting 22 irate with our guys and ah ah I would 23 suggest the damage to the cruiser was you 24 know indicative of what more we were going 25 to get into.

1 PARKIN: What was the damage to the cruiser done 2 by? 3 CARSON: Who. 4 PARKIN: What did they use to do the damage? 5 CARSON: Um. I (u/i). 6 PARKIN: Kept booting the doors. 7 CARSON: No no they smashed the back window out of 8 it. 9 PARKIN: Uh huh. 10 CARSON: I'm not sure what what you know device 11 they used but somehow or another they 12 smashed (u/i) through a rock through it or 13 a baseball bat or something. But they 14 they were prepared to to take us on at 15 that point and we just didn't have the 16 numbers to do it. Because all we had was 17 the one (1) District ERT at that time with 18 ah, with ah eight (8) in one (1), you 19 know, ah ah. 20 PARKIN: How many how many people do we think we 21 are dealing with? 22 CARSON: Well there was up to forty (40) ah ah ah I 23 would suggest at the height of it there 24 for a while and the the women and the kids 25 are in there too of course.

1 PARKIN: Okay any anything else that you want to 2 give me while I've got you on the phone. 3 CARSON: Ah I think that's about it ah we're we're 4 going to try and ah go down and talk to 5 them (u/i) of course that's what we want 6 to do ah. The township is ah pursue in 7 getting their legal house in order if a if 8 we can't get the roadway clear or have any 9 trouble with that they're going to get an 10 injunction for the roadway too. 11 PARKIN: Where are we talking? 12 CARSON: Matheson Drive. 13 PARKIN: Yeah. No I ah yeah sorry bad question. 14 Where where are we doing our negotiating 15 from? 16 CARSON: Well we don't know yet ah they said last 17 night that they were prepared to to talk 18 to us at noon and ah like you know we're 19 we're, will have to play that by ear as we 20 develop that. 21 PARKIN: Okay. Ah. 22 CARSON: Cause what what I would like to do like 23 like or or if we can achieve it is get ERT 24 inserted into the Park so at least we're 25 just in there and in their face even you

1 know, not not to physically scoop em and 2 drag them out but just just to be in there 3 and keep an eye on their activities. 4 PARKIN: But you can't your problem now as I 5 understand you is you can't drive onto 6 Matheson. 7 CARSON: We can't that's right that's right. 8 PARKIN: You've got it blocked off and what are 9 they fell trees across the road. 10 CARSON: That's what it sounds like yeah. 11 PARKIN: So you need the helicopter? 12 CARSON: Yep. 13 PARKIN: And and are you looking after that? 14 CARSON: That's being addressed ah I just talked to 15 Mark here in a minute see how he made out. 16 PARKIN: Okay um are you getting calls from any ah 17 is anybody getting to you the park and 18 government officials. We've been talking 19 to BEAUBIEN this morning. 20 CARSON: Yeah he ah he called LACROIX. The 21 LACROIX's handled that ah so he's kind of 22 run ah interference for us that way. 23 PARKIN: Is somebody else bothering you or media 24 getting to your (u/i). 25 CARSON: Ah no Doug's doing an excellent job

1 handling that, ah Ken WILLIAMS the 2 Administrator from the Town of Bosanquet 3 ah was here. We talked to him. MNR has 4 been here ah doing you know anything we 5 want. If we want front end loaders or 6 chainsaws, whatever the township is ah 7 more than happy to help us out. 8 PARKIN: Ah, is twenty-one (21) Highway still open? 9 CARSON: Oh yeah. 10 PARKIN: Okay. 11 CARSON: Yeah. 12 PARKIN: So basically then, I guess our containment 13 is Ipperwash and the Military Base. 14 That's the inner perimeter? 15 CARSON: Ah not the Military Base. Just just 16 access ah through down on ah Army Camp 17 Road (u/i). 18 PARKIN: And from the cottages eh? 19 CARSON: Yep, yep. I mean we have no way of really 20 containing the Military Base really. Not 21 not you know and be any effectiveness to 22 it whatsoever. 23 PARKIN: Okay. And you have enought ah resources 24 there now? 25 CARSON: I think so I think so I'm pretty

1 comfortable with that. 2 PARKIN: So what have you got you've got ah. 3 CARSON: T (u/i) six (6) and three (3) District ERT 4 are on the ground now and one (1) and two 5 (2) District are in bed. 6 PARKIN: Okay. 7 CARSON: I've got use of ah St. John's Ambulance ah 8 ah Command Post vehicle that's being used 9 for like ah talk down near there. 10 PARKIN: So you've got the trailer ah right at 11 Forest Detachment? 12 CARSON: That's where I'm talking to you from yep. 13 PARKIN: Okay so the media aren't bothering you 14 there. 15 CARSON: No no not. 16 PARKIN: (u/i) they're using the Legion. 17 CARSON: Yep. 18 PARKIN: What em. Ah ah in you're your relief. 19 CARSON: Yes. 20 PARKIN: Ah. 21 CARSON: My relief. 22 PARKIN: Yeah. 23 CARSON: Okay I haven't address it. Ah what I did 24 ah is I worked off about ah ah one (1) 25 thirty (30) and then I went to bed and ah

1 and then I was back in here for seven (7). 2 PARKIN: Okay, so you're good for. 3 CARSON: Yep oh yeah yeah I'm okay today. 4 PARKIN: Um okay but what um and Dale will be 5 coming in. 6 CARSON: I haven't talk to Dale there's a note here 7 to call. I guess he's ah waiting for my 8 ah call. 9 PARKIN: I guess you guys should come up with when 10 you're going to do the switch. 11 CARSON: Yep. Yep. 12 PARKIN: Okay. 13 CARSON: Yep. 14 PARKIN: All right so the bottom line is like I say 15 ah I won't we won't be bothering you. 16 CARSON: Yep. 17 PARKIN: You know. 18 CARSON: Yep. 19 PARKIN: We'll wait for your calls. 20 CARSON: Okay. 21 PARKIN: And um the only thing that might happen 22 either later today is that ah the Chief 23 and I may come. 24 CARSON: Yep, that's fine. 25 PARKIN: But that will only be to see you.

1 CARSON: Yep. 2 PARKIN: And ah to to show support and then leave. 3 CARSON: Yep. 4 PARKIN: Okay. 5 CARSON: You know I'd I'd welcome that. I don't 6 have any trouble with that. 7 PARKIN: Okay. 8 CARSON: Yep. 9 PARKIN: But we'll let you know. 10 CARSON: Yep. 11 PARKIN: And if it doesn't happen today then it 12 might be tomorrow or whatever it just 13 depends on how things are going. 14 CARSON: Yep well I think ah were in reasonably 15 good shape ah ah you know I think the the 16 planning we did has paid off in the short 17 term ah, you know there's some organized 18 confusion but but I think for the most 19 part it's ah ah as well as we could 20 expect. 21 PARKIN: Yeah I'm just um I guess it's it's 22 unfortunate we couldn't maintain the park. 23 CARSON: Well huh. 24 PARKIN: But that's a decision that has to be made 25 by the people that ah we you say. I mean

1 if ah we're going to get beat up for (u/i) 2 that reason. 3 CARSON: Well that's right and we we could have 4 maintained the park if we had every you 5 know the numbers that people have here 6 now. At that time we probably could of 7 maintained it but you know it would have 8 it would have meant somebody getting hurt 9 last night. 10 PARKIN: Ah they're going to say we got caught by 11 surprise. Is that accurate? 12 CARSON: Ahhh not. 13 PARKIN: They're going to say that well we knew 14 this this was going to happen. 15 CARSON: Well we anticipated it and we anticipated 16 that it would happen when we weren't there 17 at all is what we anticipated. So the 18 fact that we were there is is a bonus. 19 (Laughs) I guess from a public safety 20 point of view. We really expected it to 21 happen today after our presence had had 22 left, but they chose to do it when we were 23 still around so ah you know we had 24 anticipated em doing it, ah you know we 25 just didn't know when.

93
  1  PARKIN:        Okay, alright I let you go.
  2  CARSON:        Okay.
  3  PARKIN:        And ah we'll be talking to you at around
  4                 noon.
  5  CARSON:        Okay.
  6  PARKIN:        Alright.
  7  CARSON:        Thank you.
  8  PARKIN:        Bye.
  9  CARSON:        Right bye.
 10  
 11  End of conversation.
 12  
 13  CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
 14                 Q:   Commissioner, perhaps it would be an
 15  appropriate time, I have a number of questions about this
 16  conversation, to have the morning break?
 1