1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 12th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )    (np)
  5  Katherine Hensel  )    (np)
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein )  (np)      The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )   (np)     George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    )            Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )   (np)       Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena  (Army Camp)
 18  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stony
 19  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 20  Colleen Johnson  )   (np)
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Susan Freeborn   )   (np)
 25  Michelle Pong    )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )              Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Ian Smith        )              Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )
 11  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 12  Jacqueline Horvat )
 13  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 14  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 15  
 16  Mark Sandler       )            Ontario Provincial 
 17  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 18  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 19  
 20  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 21  Karen Jones      )   (np)       Police Association &
 22  Debra Newell     )   (np)       K. Deane
 23  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
 24  Annie Leeks      )
 25  Jennifer Gleitman )

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )              Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  Clem Nabigon     )   (np)
  7  Adriel Weaver     )   (np)       Student-at-Law
  8  
  9  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
 10  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 11  
 12  William Horton   )              Chiefs of Ontario
 13  Matthew Horner   )
 14  Kathleen Lickers )   (np)
 15  
 16  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 17  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 18  Megan Mackey     )   (np)
 19  Erin Tully       )
 20  
 21  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 22  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 23  Melissa Panjer   )
 24  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 9 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 219 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-409 Document Number 13000079, Minutes of 4 meeting held November 18/94 at 2:00 5 p.m. at the Township of Bosanquet 6 Municipal Office. 18 7 P-410 Handwritten notes of Deputy Commissioner 8 John Carson 1995-1996. 25 9 P-411 Document Number 2002889 CFB Ipperwash 10 Incidents Log May 02/94 to August 10/95. 40 11 P-412 Document Number 1000939, CFB Ipperwash 12 bulletin on background, Issue and action 13 taken by OPP re: Base May/93 TO July 14 31/95, prepared by J.F. Carson. 85 15 P-413 Document Number 2002890, CFB Intelligence 16 Report, July 29/95 to July 04/96. 106 17 P-414 Document Number 1000935, E-mail from Ron 18 Fox, August 02/95 and Anthony Parkin, 19 August 01/95, re: Camp Ipperwash Update. 115 20 P-415 Document Number 2000364, August 09/95 21 report to the Commissioner OPP from J.F. 22 Carson, Acting Superintendent, re: 23 Native Occupation, CFB Ipperwash. 131 24 25

1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-416 Document Number 1000923, E-mail 4 from Anthony Parkin, August 03/95 5 12:04 to Nancy Mansell, c.c to Fos, 6 Carson, Linton; Re: Camp Ipperwash 7 Update 137 8 P-417 Document Number 1000924, E-mail from 9 Anthony Parkin, August 03/95 14:04 10 to Nancy Mansell, c.c. to Fox, Carson, 11 Linton; Re: Ipperwash Update. 140 12 P-418 Document Number 1012239, Letter from 13 Marcel Beaubien, MPP Lambton to 14 Honourable Charles Harnick, Attorney 15 General. Aug.14/95 Re: the Chippewas of 16 Kettle and Stony Point. 153 17 P-419: An email from John Carson to Nancy 18 Mansell, c.c Chris Coles, Aug. 18/95 19 13:07 Re: Potential blockade of Highway 20 No. 21 in Bosanquet Township by Kettle 21 and Stony Point residents. 170 22 P-420 Ipperwash: Map of Police Radio Coverage 23 Sept/95, Chatham and London 24 Communications " Tower Locations and 25 Range" 207

1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-421 Document Number 3000574, Sept.01/95 4 09:00 a.m. OPP Meeting, No.2 DHQ 5 London. 216 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 11 Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning, everybody. 14 15 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed: 16 17 CONTINUED EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 18 Q: Deputy Carson, good morning. 19 A: Morning, sir. 20 Q: Could I take you to Exhibit 397 at 21 page 199, it's Tab 15. It's a note that -- of yours from 22 Tuesday, August 16, 1994. 23 A: Tab, sir? 24 Q: Tab 15. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And the note is for 7:56 in the 5 morning you received a telephone call from Captain 6 Ferguson, LFCA. What's that mean, sir? 7 A: LFCA is the military land forces 8 central base, CFB Downsview. 9 Q: Okay. "Re: CFB Ipperwash", and 10 could you just read the note and tell us what it's about, 11 sir? 12 A: Yes, the note indicates I received a 13 call from Captain Ferguson in regards to Ipperwash. He 14 advised me of an occurrence that happened on the 15th of 15 August, '94 in regarding to Dudley George driving through 16 entrance gate, and rammed MP police vehicle, a Military 17 Police vehicle. 18 Asked if police were involved. We were 19 unaware, or I was unaware of the incident but I would 20 check up on it. 21 Q: And did you do something with respect 22 to that? 23 A: Yes, I had a phone call with Staff 24 Sergeant Bouwman at the Grand Bend Detachment and he was 25 unaware of that occurrence and he was going to follow up

1 for me on that. 2 Q: And it's -- actually, the line says, 3 "unaware of Ipperwash rumour"? 4 A: Occurrence. 5 Q: Occurrence? Oh, okay, sorry. And 6 then the -- there's a note at 11:50, a token call to 7 Superintendent Randall -- 8 A: Yes, and he was also unaware. 9 Q: And did anything -- did you -- do you 10 recall if anything came out of that? 11 A: Not to my recollection. 12 Q: And Captain Ferguson was not at CFB 13 Ipperwash, he was at... 14 A: He was phoning me from Toronto. 15 Q: From Toronto? So the information had 16 gone up through others to him? 17 A: Yes, that's correct. 18 Q: Now, yesterday at the end of the day 19 we were talking about the meeting on November 18th, 1994 20 at the Township of Bosanquet. And I understand -- I 21 showed you some minutes, but I understand that you had 22 not seen those minutes before? 23 A: No, I don't believe I received a copy 24 of them. 25 Q: And the minutes have a -- and prior

1 to the Inquiry, do you recall seeing these minutes before 2 being called to testify? 3 A: I believe they're in the package I 4 reviewed, yes. 5 Q: And -- but that was the first time 6 you had seen them? 7 A: To my knowledge, yes. 8 Q: There's a reference to -- on page 2 9 to -- oh, excuse me. It's Document 13000079; it's the 10 minutes of the Township meeting of -- at -- the meeting 11 at the Township of Bosanquet office on November 18, 1994. 12 And there's a reference to you on page 2, 13 "Inspector John Carson clarified the 14 situation with respect to the 15 appropriate authority to contact if 16 there is an incident. Legal opinion 17 obtained. Indicated that any 18 provincial laws that are broken are the 19 responsibility of the OPP. Criminal 20 activities and damage to property would 21 be investigated by the OPP, even on 22 federal property. However, it was 23 stated that it's not of the role -- not 24 the role of the police to act as 25 negotiators."

1 Do you recall -- I believe you told us 2 yesterday that that was one (1) of -- this was one (1) of 3 the subjects you spoke about. 4 Do your recall stating that the role of 5 the OPP was not to act as negotiators? 6 A: Well, I would have clarified the 7 issue in regards -- the negotiator is referring to the 8 land claim issue. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: That's what I wanted to -- 12 A: Yes. As opposed to negotiator for 13 keeping the peace. 14 Q: And the -- then the municipality 15 lists the -- listed the concerns raised by the 16 municipality. There's five (5) of them; legal access 17 onto Outer Drive and Matheson Drive; safety of people 18 entering and leaving via the illegal accesses. 19 3) Traffic safety on Outer Drive and 20 Matheson Drive vis-a-vis the illegal entrances and 21 increased traffic. 22 4) Use of Camp for possible illegal 23 activities such as stolen cars (see OPP report attached). 24 5) The possibility of an accident whereby 25 the municipality would likely be held responsible, due to

1 the fact that we were aware of the accesses and did not 2 do anything about it. 3 And I understand there -- there's a note 4 to -- there's a reference with respect to digging the 5 ditches and the roads, and Lieutenant Colonel Campbell 6 stated that the reaction of the people living on the land 7 to the proposed work would be a major concern to DND. 8 The response was hostile. He would prefer 9 a non-confrontational role. The recommendations 10 presented today would be forwarded to DND. 11 And on page 1, do you recall that the 12 Lieutenant -- (a), the municipality raising those 13 concerns and Lieutenant Colonel Campbell indicating that 14 he would pass on the -- some of the concerns to his 15 superiors? 16 A: Yes, this is a fair representation of 17 the meeting. 18 Q: And then on the bottom of page 1, the 19 -- there's a reference, 20 "Lieutenant Colonel Campbell was asked 21 if DND will repair the fence and remove 22 the accesses to Outer Drive and 23 Matheson Drive. 24 He stated there were -- there are 25 approximately thirteen (13) people on

15
  1                   shift at the camp covering twenty-four
  2                   (24) hours per day, reporting any
  3                   incidents.  The prime function of DND
  4                   is to provide general security in the
  5                   Camp and is not of one of confrontation
  6                   or repair.  The Camp expenses [et
  7                   cetera, et cetera] -- DND is waiting
  8                   for further information as to the
  9                   status of the return of the camp."
 10                 So did he indicate that it was not DND --
 11  DND wouldn't repair the fences?  Is that your
 12  recollection?
 13                 A:   I didn't get the impression that they
 14  wouldn't, but I think what he was trying to reinforce was
 15  the ability of them to do it with the staff that they had
 16  available to them at the time, and the issues around
 17  potential confrontations.
 18                 Q:   And the -- you told us yesterday you
 19  thought there should be discussions with the occupiers
 20  and with respect to the response and was recommended that
 21  DND should initiate this discussion.
 22                 And I note -- it's noted: 
 23                   "It was agreed that the sooner the
 24                   transfer is negotiated and the land
 25                   returned, the better for everyone."

1 Everyone at the meeting agreed to that? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And there's certain recommendations 4 that were made, including recommend to the Honourable 5 David Collenette, Minister of National Defence, that 6 "He authorize the local Department of 7 National Defence to take the necessary 8 actions to secure the perimeter and 9 access points and roads at army camp 10 Ipperwash; 11 b) Further recommend that the Minister 12 remove the existing bureaucratic 13 obstacles blocking the successful 14 conclusion of the ongoing negotiations 15 regarding the return of Camp 16 Ipperwash." 17 So is that -- were those two (2) -- do you 18 recall those two (2) recommendations having been made? 19 A: I believe that was the fact, the way 20 it was laid out, yes. 21 Q: And there are a list of -- on the 22 document, there's a list attached, a two (2) page list 23 that -- of occurrences in Bosanquet Township area. It's 24 dated November 21st, 1994 and with respect to the fax, a 25 note at the top and it shows that it's from Grand -- the

1 OPP Grand Bend. 2 Was this list, two (2) page list at -- at 3 the meeting or did it come later? 4 A: I can't tell you for sure. I know 5 that there was concern about criminal activity and the 6 action being taken. 7 Given that it -- it was prepared by, it 8 looks like the officers from Grand Bend, being it was 9 faxed from there. But the fax date shows November 21st 10 that it was faxed out, so I -- I don't recall -- I don't 11 recall seeing that document prior to, but it is a 12 representation of the incidents that were occurring in 13 and around that time. 14 Q: But -- and, my question for you is 15 that not all of these incidents are attributed to -- to 16 Camp Ipperwash? 17 A: No, they're not. 18 Q: This is for the whole township? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And there -- from time to time, there 21 are many incidents in a township the size of Bosanquet? 22 A: For sure, yes. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we'll mark 24 that as the next exhibit; it would be Exhibit 409. 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-409, Your Honour.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-409. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-409: Document Number 13000079, 4 Minutes of meeting held 5 November 18/94 at 2:00 p.m. 6 at the Township of Bosanquet 7 Municipal Office 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And I think as I asked yesterday, I 11 believe the fence -- the holes -- the holes in the fence 12 along Outer Drive were repaired with -- do you recall if 13 they were not? I think they were. 14 A: I think there was some effort made to 15 do that. I don't know if it remained repaired or if it 16 was temporary in nature. 17 Q: And the occupiers -- it's my 18 understanding the occupiers helped with those repairs? 19 A: That's my understanding. 20 Q: Then I note that one (1) of the 21 people at the meeting was Rosemarie Ur, the local MP, had 22 you met her before this meeting? 23 A: I don't -- I don't believe so. If 24 so, it may have been once, possibly. 25 Q: And in 1995, if we move forward to

1 the summer of 1995, had -- between 1993 and let's say, 2 the beginning of August 1995, had you met with Marcel -- 3 with Marcel Beaubien from June -- he was elected, I 4 think, in early June, '95. Between June of '95 and 5 August the 1st, '95, have you met with Mr. Beaubien? 6 A: I don't believe so. I think my first 7 actual face-to-face meeting would have been in his office 8 in early August -- late July or early August. 9 Q: I think it's -- we'll come back -- 10 we'll come back to that. And Rosemarie Ur, between the 11 meeting of November 18th and the -- September 4th in this 12 case, did you meet with Rosemarie Ur again? 13 A: I don't recollect off the top of my 14 head that I did. 15 Q: And during the period from May 1993 16 to June -- the change of government in June of 1995, had 17 you met with the Minister of the Solicitor General? 18 A: During which period? 19 Q: May 1993 to June 1990 -- June 1995? 20 What I'm getting at is was -- 21 A: I don't believe so. 22 Q: -- it part of your role -- was it 23 part of your role to meet with the Minister or the Deputy 24 Minister or the senior officials at the Ministry of the 25 Solicitor General?

1 A: Not -- not at that time. The only 2 way I would have met them -- in my role as an inspector 3 at District Headquarters in London, my role didn't 4 include interacting in any way at the Ministry level. 5 Those types of interactions usually would occur from 6 personnel from General Headquarters who performed 7 different roles than mine. 8 Q: And that would be -- would that be 9 the same with respect to the Ministry of the Attorney 10 General? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And the Ministry of Natural 13 Resources? 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: And the Office of the Premier? 16 A: That's correct. 17 Q: And the -- with respect to your role 18 as an inspector in the London District Headquarters, what 19 interaction did you have in the period up to the 20 beginning of September with the senior -- September 1995, 21 with the senior members of the OPP command, as an 22 inspector? 23 A: What interaction? 24 Q: Yes, generally. 25 A: Generally, not a lot. I -- I

1 wouldn't make a lot of trips to General Headquarters. 2 Now, during that period we were in the 3 middle of a restructuring and reorganizing of -- of the - 4 - the Force. As a result of that, I was on some 5 committees that took me to General Headquarters fairly 6 regularly and -- and interacting with the senior command 7 as a result of those kinds of meetings and discussions. 8 But as far as from an operational perspective, my chain 9 of command would travel through Chief Superintendent 10 Coles to General Headquarters. 11 But to your point, if I could just go back 12 to your point in regards to the -- the various Members of 13 Parliament, the most likely reason I would know any of 14 them locally or meet any of them locally had more to do 15 with social functions. 16 For instance, if there was a retirement 17 party, it would be customary to invite the Federal Member 18 of Parliament and the Provincial Member of Parliament and 19 also if we had, for instance, a building opening -- a 20 government building where we would be invited. Or if it 21 was one (1) of our own structures, there would be Members 22 of Parliament and the various ministries may have 23 political representation there. 24 So, it was more on that level that I would 25 have come to know any of the Members of Parliament.

1 Q: Thank you. That -- I expect that, 2 actually, and I guess it was implicit in my question that 3 that kind of thing might happen. I was more -- and I'm - 4 - I'm -- I thank you for clarifying that because -- what 5 I was more interested in was meeting on any sort of 6 official or kind of meetings with -- with the 7 politicians. 8 A: And, in fact, probably -- probably 9 the one (1) member that I would have met more than most 10 at that time would have been Marian Boyd who -- who lived 11 in the City of London. And as the Attorney General we 12 provided security for her at a number of the functions 13 when she was in her constituency. So we would have had, 14 or I would have had, more interaction -- more on a social 15 basis, but -- with her, than -- than most. 16 Q: And after you left as Detachment 17 Commander in May of '93, we've seen a number of 18 interactions that you had with Fred Thomas, the mayor of 19 Bosanquet; the Reeve of Bosanquet; and the meeting on 20 November -- November 18 where the mayor of... 21 A: No, I wasn't there. 22 Q: The -- did you continue to have the 23 annual meetings with the mayor of Forest and -- excuse 24 me, Arkona and Watford after you left the... 25 A: Generally, that would be the

1 responsibility of the Detachment Commander, but -- but I 2 -- I did know the -- the mayor of Forest, for instance on 3 a social basis while I lived in the town of Forest. I 4 knew the mayor of Grand Bend fairly well. Same thing, 5 you know, people that I had seen on a -- on a day-to-day 6 basis; you're going doing your local business. 7 Q: Okay. And with respect to various 8 community groups, were you aware of a community group 9 called, "On Fire?" 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And what was your understanding of 12 the group, On Fire? 13 A: The On Fire group developed 14 particularly during the -- the period of the West 15 Ipperwash shore issue. And they were a represent -- 16 representative of a number of cottage owners who had a 17 number of concerns in regards to that civil suit and the 18 issues around their property values and in their view, 19 lack of support they were getting in order to try to 20 address those concerns. 21 Q: And including lack of support from 22 the OPP? 23 A: Very much so. 24 Q: Now, were you aware in 1994 that the 25 Federal Government, in February, I believe it was

1 February 1994, stated that Camp Ipperwash would be closed 2 as part of the budget? 3 A: Yes. There -- there was an 4 announcement, I believe, now that you mention that in 5 that regard. I -- I can't really put my mind around the 6 -- the date that it would have occurred. 7 Q: Now, we move to 1995. As I 8 understand it, there were few incidents at the Army Camp 9 from January to mid-June 1995? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: And that, in fact, in your notebook 12 for 1995, you don't have any notes in your notebook until 13 June 20th, 1995, or at least the notes that we've been 14 provided and that's the -- the book I'm referring to says 15 1990 -- it should be in the small -- under -- at the very 16 bottom, sir? Just pull that -- not the -- the -- just the 17 top one, yes. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: For the benefit of My Friends it's 22 the book that's got on it "1995 and 1996, Handwritten 23 Notes". 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 2 A: Yes, the first note entry there is 3 June 20th. 4 Q: And these notes, we'll come to some 5 of them a little later on that are in a little different 6 style but could you just quickly take a look, I'm 7 instructed that these are copies of your notes? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And the -- would these notes have 10 been made on or shortly after the dates that are noted on 11 them? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And, again, in 1995 and 1996 was that 14 your normal procedure? 15 A: Correct. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we could mark 17 this book of notes for 1995 and 1996, the next exhibit. 18 It would be Exhibit 410. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-410, Your Honour. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-410. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-410: Handwritten notes of Deputy 23 Commissioner John Carson 24 1995-1996 25

1 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Okay. Would you agree that in the 3 period mid to late-June 1995 there was an increase in 4 tension at -- at the Army Camp? 5 A: That's fair to say. Yes. 6 Q: And do you agree there was more 7 frustration on the part of the occupiers with respect to 8 the negotiations and the slow pace of the negotiations? 9 A: That was a sense I -- I believed was 10 occurring. I think also there was a growing -- 11 altercations between the military personnel on Base and 12 the occupiers that was also aggravating or contributing 13 to the discontent. 14 Q: And the -- from your perspective, did 15 you attribute some of that to the frustration on the part 16 of the occupiers? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And Glenn George at this period of 19 time appeared to be occupying a more of a leadership role 20 is that -- 21 A: That's fair. Yes. 22 Q: And you had known Glenn George from 23 when you were a Detachment Commander? 24 A: Yes. In particular, I had met him 25 during the early stages of the occupation --

1 Q: The occupation? 2 A: -- in '93. 3 Q: And in early -- sometime in 1995, 4 Mark Wright was appointed your second in command; is that 5 correct? 6 A: Well, Mark Wright had been working 7 very closely with me actually since 1993. He was 8 involved back during the period when the helicopter 9 shooting occurred and he had stayed involved or -- well, 10 he had stayed involved, particularly -- his role at that 11 time, just to clarify, he was the Detective Sergeant for 12 Lambton County responsible for the supervision of what we 13 referred to as benchmark crime. 14 So any occurrence that meets a certain 15 level of seriousness, he would be responsible to 16 supervise and ensure the quality of those investigations. 17 So it was a natural issue that he would become involved 18 in, in any major incident. 19 Q: And he was, as I think you said, he 20 was involved in the helicopter incident? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And so during the period of time 23 starting in May 1993, he assisted you. Was there a 24 period in time or a point in time when he officially 25 became your second in command or did he simply carry on

1 assisting you? 2 A: He continued on assisting. And I'm 3 not sure I would call it second in command, but any of 4 these incidents, for the most part, involved some 5 potential criminality so it was just a natural part. 6 And as July or as the summer of '95 wore 7 on, it seemed that he was working almost as a 2/IC, I 8 guess, if you want to call it that. He was the other 9 person who probably had the most continual involvement in 10 this ongoing incident. 11 Q: Okay. And clearly when we come to the 12 events of September 4 to September 6, 1995, he was your 13 right-hand person? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And were you aware of any allegations 16 or complaints with respect to Staff -- Staff Sergeant 17 Mark Wright at the time? 18 A: He -- he was acting Staff Sergeant. 19 Q: Regarding his attitude or behaviour 20 towards First Nations people? 21 A: I was not aware of any concerns about 22 his -- his approach to First Nations. 23 Q: And, had you heard of any complaints 24 or allegations? 25 A: I received none.

1 Q: And, if I could take you to this note 2 at page 1 of exhibit 410, this is a meeting I understand 3 regarding CFB Ipperwash? 4 A: Where is it, sir? 5 Q: It's page 1, the -- the note of -- of 6 June the 20, 1995? 7 A: Okay, okay. Yes. I'm sorry. 8 Q: And, that was a meeting attended by 9 Chief Superintendent Coles, Superintendent Parkin, 10 Superintendent Baronski, Inspector Hutchinson -- or, 11 Hutchinson is it? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: Inspector Linton, Inspector Martin? 14 A: Martin. 15 Q: And Inspector Carson? 16 A: Myself, yes. 17 Q: That's you, and then Detective 18 Sergeant Wright, and Staff Sergeant Bouwman? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And, can you just tell us about this 21 meeting, why the meeting took place and what happened at 22 the meeting? 23 A: This was basically a review, an 24 update of the whole issues regarding Ipperwash. 25 And I gave a -- an update, basically a

1 historical review to date, an update on intelligence 2 information and the military involvement, and criminal 3 activity that had been taking place in and around that 4 area. 5 Q: And the intelligence update that you 6 refer to is simply the information that you had received 7 as to who was going on and off the Army Camp? 8 A: Well, intelligence -- that 9 terminology is a very broad comment. 10 I guess I'd just like to -- to emphasize 11 that when I refer to intelligence update here, it's -- 12 it's very broad and it's information that I would be 13 aware of whether it was information I received from the 14 detachment personnel working the area, or from our 15 Intelligence Officers, or something I learned personally. 16 So, it was my overview as -- basically as 17 I knew it from all sources. 18 Q: And we'll come back to intelligence 19 later, but the military exit, there's a reference to 20 military exit? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And the -- what was that referring 23 to, sir? 24 A: I believe that would be in regards to 25 the potential of the military -- or, of the base being

1 evacuated eventually. And this particular summer, the 2 summer of 1993, the cadets attended the Base and -- and 3 used the Base in the summer. 4 The summer of 1994, if -- if my memory 5 serves me correctly, cadets attended the Base but did not 6 use any of the facilities outside of the barracks area. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: And in 1995, there were no cadets 9 brought to Ipperwash at all. So the -- the military 10 usage of the Base had been evolving to less and less over 11 time. 12 Q: And then there's a note, "Possible 13 Alternatives"? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: "Military vacates - Glen George"? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And Ipperwash, then an arrow. 18 A: Yeah. 19 "Patrol of the reserve, military 20 response to incidents." 21 Q: And can you tell us what that refers 22 to -- those notes refer to? 23 A: It would just be apprising them of 24 the patrols of the area, and of how the military had been 25 responding to incidents.

1 Q: And were these notes, do you recall, 2 made at the meeting or just after the meeting? 3 A: In all likelihood, I probably made 4 them during the meeting. 5 Q: During the meeting. Then there's a 6 note, "C. Coles", that refers to Chief Superintendent 7 Coles? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: "MP Marcel Beaubien, PC - update"? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: What does that refer to, and what do 12 you recall with respect of what was said about Mr. 13 Beaubien? 14 A: I don't recall any discussion about 15 him, in particular, but what that means to me is that 16 Coles raised the issue of an update either from or to Mr. 17 Beaubien. 18 Q: And Colonel Matt Campbell, London? 19 A: Correct, he would be the Base 20 Commander of London, responsible for London and CFB 21 Ipperwash. 22 Q: "Negotiating update - status."? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: What do you recall -- who spoke about 25 Colonel Campbell, you or Chief Superintendent Coles or

1 someone else? 2 A: I couldn't be sure who -- who made 3 that point, but obviously it was a status update in 4 regards to the process. 5 Q: And what did you understand -- it's 6 either a status update or somebody wanted a status 7 update, do you recall which? 8 A: I couldn't tell you at this point. 9 Q: Then there's note, "Ron Fox", do you 10 recall what the reference is to Ron Fox? 11 A: No I don't know what I'm referring to 12 at that point. 13 Q: And then, "Oneida Territory - MPP - 14 Middlesex."? 15 A: I don't believe that has any relation 16 to this meeting. 17 Q: To this meeting? Okay. Can you 18 recall anything else about this meeting on June the 20th, 19 1995? 20 A: Not at all, sir, I'm sorry. 21 Q: Now, the next note you have is June 22 28th, 1995. It's at page 2 of Exhibit 410. And there's 23 a series of notes at the end of June with respect to the 24 Army Camp and an allegation with respect to Mr. Glenn 25 George and -- relating to a tractor and to a member of

1 the military, is that correct? 2 A: Which date are you referring to? 3 Q: Starting at June 28th, 1995, page 2. 4 A: Oh, I'm sorry. 5 Q: It's at the next -- 6 A: Oh, sorry, I had the wrong page. 7 Yes. 8 Q: And there's a note, June 28th, 1995: 9 "11:50, telephone call to Inspector 10 Linton, Number 1 district headquarters 11 re: incident Ipperwash base, assault - 12 threaten..." 13 A: "Threatening, discuss the 14 investigation, charges expected where 15 RNPG exists." 16 That was agreed. 17 "As per meeting with Chief 18 Superintendent Coles." 19 Q: And what's that refer to, the meeting 20 re: Superintendent Coles, is that the meeting of June 21 20th? 22 A: I believe so. There had been some -- 23 there would have been some discussion, obviously, as to 24 what action we would take when there were criminal acts 25 taking place.

1 I think you'd find that somewhere in the 2 notes there would be some memos by Staff Sergeant Bouwman 3 also providing some direction. And there may have been 4 some memos or e-mails from myself providing some clarity 5 to the expectations of our officers. 6 Q: And do you recall, off the top of 7 your head, what the expectation was back in 1995, at this 8 time? 9 A: Yes it was, in my view very clear. 10 That where an incident was reported and there was 11 reasonable and probable grounds, that the appropriate 12 charge would be laid. 13 Q: An incident reported with respect to 14 the Army Camp? 15 A: Well, any incident in the area, but 16 at that point we were getting a lot of discussion, a lot 17 of discontent, I guess, that we weren't laying charges 18 relative to some of the criminal events. The military 19 were complaining about that. 20 And also in some of the cases, the 21 occupiers were complaining we weren't taking action 22 against the military staff who they felt were causing -- 23 committing some criminal acts, in their view. 24 Q: Yeah, from the -- 25 A: It was from both sides.

1 Q: From both sides? 2 A: Yeah, it was -- 3 Q: Military thought that the occupiers 4 were doing things, the occupiers thought the military was 5 doing things and both sides didn't think you were doing 6 enough? 7 A: We were getting it from every side. 8 Q: And then if you go down the notes, at 9 13:00, there's something about -- 10 A: "Accompanied by Superintendent Parkin 11 to the Grand Bend Detachment." 12 Q: And then at 15:00? 13 A: "Met with Staff Sergeant Bouwman at 14 the Grand Band Detachment. Bouwman had 15 met with Glenn George and approximately 16 twenty (20) Natives accompanied by 17 Detective Speck. Discussed ongoing 18 mischief, assault over night. 19 Bouwman raised the issue re: Military 20 Police taking action. I re-affirmed 21 that we could take appropriate action 22 any time there was a criminal offence 23 regardless of Military concerns. ATV 24 patrols were not being conducted due to 25 safety and communications.

1 Bouwman advised that patrols on the 2 beach expected during the daylight 3 hours with the appropriate personnel 4 with proper radios and they would be 5 tested if necessary to ensure that. 6 No known incidents of aggression 7 towards OPP. Charges were expected no 8 later than Friday. Be prepared to re- 9 route traffic if a roadblock occurs. 10 Negotiate first and advise the Incident 11 Commander." 12 Q: Yes? And then you went and viewed 13 CFB Ipperwash and the Park? 14 A: Yes. I went -- I went personally. 15 Q: Did you drive into CFB Ipperwash? 16 A: Not likely. I -- I haven't noted 17 that I did. I -- I probably just travelled the general 18 area. 19 Q: And then, you went to Forest and 20 met... 21 A: Yeah. 22 "I met with Detective George Speck who 23 indicated the investigation was 24 progressing well. Evidence for assault 25 and threatening. More statements on

1 Thursday to be completed and a warrant 2 for arrest was going to be obtained." 3 Q: And on Thursday, January 29th, 1995, 4 page 3 of Exhibit 410, there's a note at the top of the 5 page. I guess that's still June 28th that you had a call 6 with Mark Wright and updated him? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: And then there's a note under -- as 9 part of that note, the last line: 10 "[something] daily log." 11 A: We discussed a daily log, a -- a 12 reactive and a proactive log. 13 Q: Yes? And, what does that refer to? 14 A: Well, at that time there were so many 15 people involved in this and there were so many 16 occurrences being reported to this person and that person 17 and some of it was being reported to the Forest 18 detachment, some to the Grand Bend detachment and it was 19 getting very difficult to manage all the information. 20 So, Detective -- Sergeant Wright and 21 myself entered into a discussion as to how we come to 22 some sense of having one (1) point of tracking all of -- 23 all of these events. 24 So, anyway, that entered into a strategy 25 where we would develop a log where all the activities

1 involved by all the members would be tracked on -- in one 2 (1) document. 3 Q: And in fact, that document was 4 created? 5 A: Yes, it was. 6 Q: And, if I could take you to Book 1 of 7 the -- yes, that should be Book 1, Deputy Carson, at Tab 8 4, there's -- there's Inquiry Document 2002889. 9 A: Yes, that's the log. 10 Q: And, this log starts May '94, and 11 runs through, initially, to August the 10th/'95, and then 12 re-starts in July '96, and runs to January/'69 (sic). 13 What I'm interested in is the period of 14 time -- the first sixty-three (63) pages up to the end of 15 August 28th, 1995. 16 And can you tell us how this log was 17 created? You and Sergeant Mark Wright discussed it in 18 late June and did someone go through and pull together 19 all of the incident reports up to the beginning of June - 20 - the beginning of July 1995? 21 A: That -- that's -- that's it in a 22 nutshell. We -- we reviewed the occurrences that had 23 been reported as formal reports and we also asked the 24 Members that we were aware of who had some involvement, 25 to go back in their notes and provide the information so

1 it could be entered in the log. 2 So that we were able to sort it 3 chronologically and you'll notice by date, time, place 4 and who the source was. And this was also providing me 5 the -- the ability to see what individuals -- part 6 individuals had been responsible for. So I was -- we 7 were able to go back and talk to the right person if we 8 need additional information. 9 Q: Okay. And perhaps we could mark the 10 first sixty-three (63) pages of this document, 11 Commissioner, as the next exhibit, it would be Exhibit 12 411. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-411, Your Honour. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What tab 15 number is that at again? 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's at Tab 4 of the 17 book that you have, sir. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-411: Document Number 2002889 CFB 20 Ipperwash Incidents Log May 21 02/94 to August 10/95 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 24 Q: And where was this log kept? 25 A: It was kept at the Forest Detachment

1 by the administrative staff there. 2 Q: So all incidents would -- reported to 3 a person in Forest who would then enter them into the 4 log? 5 A: Correct. And then the log would be 6 distributed to the people who required it. 7 Q: And in the summer of 1995, July 1995, 8 who -- who were the people who required it? 9 A: I would get a copy of it, Mark Wright 10 would get a copy of it and people like Inspector Linton 11 and Chief Coles would have access too, if they wanted it. 12 Q: If they wanted they would simply call 13 and ask for it? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: Now I note as we go on in the summer 16 of July, particularly after -- if you go to page 16. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Could you 22 put this on the screen, as well? 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Certainly. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Actually, if we even 3 go back to June 28th, it's page 14, page 13. For you it 4 appears that someone has starting at 11:50 really put 5 your notes into this log. Have I read that correctly? 6 A: That's fair. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Could you look through a few of these 11 pages, because it appears to me when I looked at this 12 that what someone had done is simply take your notes to - 13 - and entered them into the log, at least in this period. 14 A: Yeah, that -- that's fair. 15 Q: Yeah. And the log itself indicates 16 in July, if you look through the pages in July, that 17 there were very few incidents in July at the Army Camp. 18 Is that a fair statement? Or at the Provincial Park? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And is that your recollection that 21 there were very few incidents? 22 A: It was just -- just the ongoing 23 issues with the Military there. 24 Q: And -- 25 A: And examples of, if I could, like on

1 the 25th of July you'll see where there's campfires down 2 by the beach, and the Ministry of Natural Resources are 3 complaining of loud -- loud music and air horns being 4 blown, and that type of thing. 5 So, it was -- it was -- for the lack of a 6 better term, nuisance type issues down at the beach, 7 relatively close to the Ipperwash Park itself. 8 Q: And is it -- that fair to say that at 9 the park itself, during the summer, that there were those 10 types of nuisance type incidents by non-aboriginal people 11 who -- young people who visited the park. Loud music, 12 drinking? 13 A: Well, there -- there may have been 14 drinking, but the issue with loud music and that, the 15 Park Wardens actually kept a pretty close tab on that, 16 and -- and that kind of behaviour certainly was not 17 common. 18 Q: Not common. Now, if I could -- which 19 would you prefer to use, the log or your notes with 20 respect to some of this period at the end of June, at the 21 beginning of July? 22 A: I prefer to refer to my notes, if I 23 could. 24 Q: Okay, let's go back to your notes. 25 It's Exhibit 410.

1 Now, on Thursday June -- June 29th, 1995, 2 you met with Lieutenant Colonel Campbell, or you had a 3 telephone conversation with him; it's on page -- 4 A: Yes, yes. 5 Q: And he advised you that Captain Doug 6 Smith form the Military Police had been assigned to 7 Ipperwash? 8 A: Yes, that's correct. 9 Q: And there's a note: 10 "Wishes to attend District 11 Headquarters, re: rules of engagement 12 as per...", 13 I can't read the next word, "National 14 Defence Headquarters"? 15 A: I'm sorry -- 16 Q: It's the note for June 29 -- 17 A: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. 18 "Wishes to attend District 19 Headquarters, re: rules of engagements 20 as per the National Defence 21 Headquarters." 22 So that's -- that's the military's Defence 23 Headquarters, Ottawa. 24 Q: Then what's the next note? 25 A: "Will require a meeting with Captain

1 Smith and Staff Sergeant Bouwman, will 2 attend District Headquarters 09:30 to 3 further discuss recent incidents." 4 And Colonel Campbell came to my office. 5 Q: And the note of the meeting with him 6 is the next note, as a matter of fact? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: And can you tell us what happened at 9 that meeting? 10 A: We arranged a -- a -- a briefing for 11 Smith, Bouwman, Campbell, and myself, was going to occur 12 on Friday at 2:00 in the afternoon at Grand Bend. 13 Advised Campbell it was an update 14 regarding outstanding charges that were to be laid. 15 Q: And then at 10:00 you received a 16 telephone call from Detective Speck? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And that's about Ed Isaac. What -- 19 A: "Ed Isaac from Walpole Island had 20 been seen at Ipperwash overnight, 21 subject known for violence and weapons, 22 warrant last year. Note, AK-47 and 23 tear gas". 24 Q: And what's that refer to, the event 25 from the year before?

1 A: I believe so. 2 Q: Okay. Then the next page there's, at 3 the top of the page on June 29, 1995, you spoke to 4 Inspector Linton? 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: And can you tell us about that 7 conversation? 8 A: Yes, he was updated in regards to the 9 meeting, and I suspect that's the meeting with the 10 Military Colonel. 11 "Discussed radio problems as per Staff 12 Sergeant Bouwman, recommend testing of 13 equipment, will supply Bill Noble, who 14 is our technologist from the London 15 area in regarding radio systems if 16 necessary. Linton will also have this 17 discussion with Staff Sergeant Sharp, 18 who's the Comm. Centre Supervisor out 19 of Chatham. Advised Linton of a memo 20 regarding reporting, charges to be laid 21 today. Recommend Sergeant Hutton -- or 22 Hudson assist Detective Speck". 23 Sergeant Hudson was one (1) of the 24 Supervisors posted to Forest. 25 Q: To Forest, and was he the -- one of

1 the individuals who was the liaison Officer with the 2 First -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- the Kettle Point police? 5 A: Yes, he'd been a liaison for several 6 years. 7 Q: Then there's a note to -- June the 8 30, 1995 at 14:00 hours, Grand Bend Detachment, you met 9 with Colonel McDonald, Captain Smith, somebody else whose 10 name I can't read? 11 A: It looks -- I'm not sure what the 12 name is. 13 Q: That would be someone from the 14 Military? 15 A: I believe so. It's not a name that I 16 recognize. 17 Q: It's actually in your note it says 18 "medical advisor"? 19 A: I'm not sure what that refers to. If 20 Smith has some medical background or not. 21 Q: Staff Sergeant Bouwman, Inspector 22 Carson and can you just tell us what the discussion -- 23 A: Yes. The essence of the discussions 24 of the Military Police were going to patrol the exterior 25 perimeter of the Base, and particularly around the gun

1 ranges. There would be no patrol of the training area. 2 And after dark there would be no patrol outside of the 3 built-up area of the -- I'm sorry, not the Park, of the 4 Military Base. 5 Q: And the patrol of the training area, 6 does that refer to the rifle ranges where the people were 7 -- were camped? 8 A: The training area would be all of the 9 bush area. 10 Q: All of the bush area? 11 A: Back in the tank ranges and all 12 through the two thousand (2,000) acres. For the most 13 part, excluding the firing ranges. 14 Q: Then there's a note July 2nd that 15 there was a problem at this time with respect to ATV 16 patrols along the beach -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- in front of the Army Camp; is that 19 correct? 20 A: Yes, sir. 21 Q: The Ontario Provincial Police were 22 using ATVs, All Terrain Vehicles, to patrol along the 23 beachfront from Port Franks over to, I guess, Kettle 24 Point? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And there were some members of the 2 occupying group who felt that the OPP should not be 3 driving their ATVs along the beachfront? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: And the -- there were some, including 6 Carl George, as I understand it, who did not object to 7 the OPP using the ATVs along the beach front? 8 A: You say he did not object? 9 Q: Did not object. 10 A: Yes, there was mixed views on patrol. 11 Q: And on July 2nd, 1995 the -- there's 12 a note with respect to the issue of ATV patrols; can you 13 just tell us about this, Deputy Carson? 14 A: Yes. 15 "Staff Sergeant Babbitt advises of a 16 fax re: Ipperwash at 13:50 on 1st of 17 July, a minor confrontation at the 18 beach area. Staff Sergeant Bouwman was 19 present with Glenn George. Was advised 20 there was a warrant for Glenn's arrest. 21 Stated he would turn himself in at ten 22 o'clock on Sunday. The natives, twenty 23 (20) to twenty-five (25) did not wish 24 to see ATV patrols. Move vehicles in 25 the road to block the entrance.

1 Bouwman advised that he was unable to 2 contact myself." 3 Q: Then at the top of the page? 4 A: At the top of the page I discuss the 5 notification process with Bouwman and expecting that he 6 would, in fact, notify me of these issues and in his view 7 this was a no big deal. 8 Q: And, in fact, you've got in quotes 9 "no big deal"? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And that was his view? 12 A: His view. 13 Q: Okay. Then I note that you -- and 14 Mr. Bouwman was the Detachment Commander at that time; 15 still at Forest? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And you reported that you had a 18 telephone call with Chief Superintendent Coles? 19 A: Yes, I did. 20 Q: And can you just tell us about that 21 conversation? 22 A: "We agreed that we would suspend the 23 patrols, have some discussion with 24 Chief Tom Bressette, get some opinion 25 from him. Attempt to locate Glenn

1 George and arrest. There was some 2 discussion he may be located in a 3 vehicle travelling off the base. 4 Would make some effort to not provoke a 5 confrontation and we had no intention 6 to do a media release at this time 7 until an arrest had been made." 8 Q: Then you then spoke to Staff Sergeant 9 Bouwman and the ATV patrols were suspended and you asked 10 him to contact Chief Bressette if possible? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: Then you had a telephone call as well 13 with Inspector Ron Fox? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And it says: "Updated re: issues". 16 A: Yes. "Updated re: issues. Advised 17 of information from a Brian Hay from 18 Paragon. Suggests potential Oka 19 situation at Ipperwash. Hay is a 20 Military Major, public -- public 21 relations." 22 And I have question mark. 23 Q: Now, this is the second time in this 24 period of time that we've seen Inspector Ron Fox's name. 25 When did Inspector Ron Fox come into the

1 picture? 2 A: He went down to the ministry -- it 3 would be just in the months leading up to this time 4 period. It was, I believe, in early or spring of '95, 5 possibly. He had been the inspector at the Provincial 6 Police Academy in Brampton prior to that and -- and he 7 had just transferred over, working as First Nations 8 liaison at the ministry. 9 Q: And "the ministry" is the ministry of 10 the Solicitor General? 11 A: Yes, sir. 12 Q: And had you known or worked with 13 Inspector Fox prior to his involvement in -- at the 14 ministry as First Nations liaison officer? 15 A: Yes. Actually, I knew him fairly 16 well; we had been on some courses together previously, 17 courses like executive development. 18 We had -- while he was director of the OPP 19 academy, I was -- excuse me, I was acting District 20 Commander of -- of 2 District, London, of which the 21 Ontario Police College is within that geographic area of 22 responsibility. And as the commander of the Academy, he 23 had a lot of interaction with the operations at the 24 provincial -- or at the Ontario Police College because of 25 the number of recruits we had going through the college.

1 And any time there were any incidents at 2 the college, my staff investigators ended up going out 3 there to resolve some issues, and when he needed 4 instructors, often times the instructors came from staff 5 within my district. 6 And so there was ongoing work that the two 7 (2) of us had to do together, particularly around the 8 police college. 9 Q: And what was your understanding of 10 his duties as First Nations Liaison officer with the 11 Ministry of the Solicitor General? 12 A: Well, I have to admit I would have 13 had a very superficial understanding, but it would be my 14 understanding that he would be an advisor to the -- to 15 the ministry, to the bureaucracy in regards to First 16 Nations issues and assisting in the agreements that were 17 being proceeded with, the various territories across the 18 province, in regards to the provincial-federal agreements 19 for policing. 20 Q: And at this time in 1995, was there a 21 division in the Ontario Provincial Police with respect to 22 First Nations policing? 23 A: Yes, there was a First Nations 24 branch. 25 Q: And can you tell us what the role of

1 the First Nations branch was of the Ontario Provincial 2 Police? 3 A: Well, that branch would work in 4 concert with the liaison officer, but in particular, 5 administering the responsibilities for policing in the 6 First Nations territories where the tri-partied or the 7 tri-party agreements were in place. 8 So, they basically administered First 9 Nations policing programs for the majority of the 10 reserves across the province. 11 Q: And the -- can you just tell us what 12 your understanding in 1995 of the tri-partied agreement 13 was? 14 A: Well that's the agreement that 15 provides the policing for the First Nations territories, 16 where there's agreement from the federal government, the 17 provincial government and the local Bands in the 18 administration and deployment of policing services. 19 Those are normally done through hiring of 20 First Nations officers, and the OPP has the role of being 21 the administrator of that program. 22 Q: And at or about this time, or shortly 23 before this time, the Anishnaabek police service had been 24 developed, before 1995, and what was the relationship, if 25 any, between the Anishnaabek police service and the OPP?

1 A: I'm probably not a very good person 2 to -- to really have much opinion on that. The -- the 3 Anishnaabek service was new in the mid '90's and, for the 4 most part, it involved territories in, I would call, 5 Central Ontario; some in the south may consider it north, 6 but more, say, in the Sault Ste. Marie/Sudbury 7 corridor/North Bay. 8 They weren't involved in the policing 9 agreements in southern Ontario, particularly the 10 southwest region, so I had minimal or no contact with any 11 of the members of the Anishnaabek Police Force. 12 Q: And were you directed by Chief Coles 13 or someone else in the hierarchy to interact with 14 Inspector Ron Fox? 15 A: Was I directed to? 16 Q: Yeah. You didn't seem to deal with 17 Doug Scott when he was the First Nations Liaison Officer 18 and I'm just -- from the review of the notes it looked 19 like Superintendent Parkin or Tom -- Superintendent Wall 20 dealt with Doug Scott and not you and how did you get, 21 then, to the -- the person dealing with... 22 A: Well, a couple of things happened at 23 that time. It was in and around that time that 24 Superintendent Wall retired. 25 Q: Yes?

1 A: It's also around that time 2 restructuring of the -- Forest is underway. 3 Superintendent Parkin had been the -- the District 4 Commander at Sault Ste. Marie, and in, I believe it was 5 June '95, he transferred to the London Region 6 Headquarters and worked with Coles, basically taking the 7 job, for the most part, that Wall was doing. 8 So, there was a period of transition going 9 on there and quite frankly, there was a bit of a gap for 10 -- for lack of a better term and with my own personal 11 familiarly with -- with -- with Ron Fox, I simply made 12 the calls. 13 Q: And, what were you expecting to get 14 from Inspector Fox? What was -- what was he -- what did 15 you want him to do for you or you for him? 16 A: He would be the person that I would 17 go to, for instance, if I had a question in regards to 18 land claim issues or any outstanding agreements with any 19 of the First Nations issues. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: For instance, he -- he may have been 22 -- I believe I'd asked him to research whether there was 23 any official land claim regarding Ipperwash Park and I 24 believe he undertook to -- to have that researched. 25 Q: Okay. Then, back to your notes on

1 the -- July 2nd, you had a discussion at 22:00 hours with 2 Staff Sergeant Bouwman? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And he advises he had spoken with 5 Chief Bressette? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And your note indicates that Chief 8 Bressette does not support Glenn George; feels Military 9 should take action? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And is that a fair representation of 12 the telephone call with Staff Sergeant Bouwman? 13 A: I believe so, yes. 14 Q: Then, there's -- the next day you had 15 a call with Staff Sergeant Bouwman and ultimately Glenn 16 George surrendered himself with respect to the -- the 17 complaints against him? 18 A: I -- I'm sorry? 19 Q: Glenn George was -- surrendered 20 himself to the OPP with respect to the -- the charges 21 that had been laid against him; is that correct? 22 A: I don't -- well, wait a minute. I 23 don't see that in -- in that note on Monday the -- the -- 24 Q: It's not in your notes, I'm trying to 25 short circuit some of this.

1 A: Okay. 2 Q: And, ultimately, do you recall if, 3 ultimately, Glenn George was charged with respect to 4 these incidents? 5 A: I believe he was. 6 Q: Now, if I could take you to Tab 2, 7 your next note after July the 3rd is July 27th, 1995? 8 And this is a note that has at the top, it's at page 8 of 9 Exhibit 410. It has at the top "Document Not Previously 10 Disclosed." 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And from your perspective and looking 13 at both your notes and at Exhibit 411, you had very -- 14 had no involvement it appears from July the 3rd '95 to 15 July 27th, 1995? Or perhaps to put it another way; not 16 such that you made a note of it? 17 A: Well, the -- the difficulty here is 18 what I ended up doing, just so I could help clarify my 19 note taking here. I started to split out the notes for 20 Ipperwash from my day to day notes because I was still 21 trying to run the district. 22 So I may have the odd note within my day- 23 to-day notes that may not appear here in their midst. So 24 I do have some brief notation on meetings or comments in 25 -- for instance, on Tuesday the 25th of July, I had a

1 call with -- well, again, I'm not sure. I'm sorry, this 2 is in regard to another incident, I'm mistaken there, 3 sorry. 4 Q: I noted that in the log, your name 5 didn't appear from the period July 3rd to July 27th and 6 the -- 7 A: That's fair. 8 Q: And the next note that we have been 9 provided is July 27th, can you tell us about this note 10 and what happened on July 27th? It was a meeting with 11 Colonel Campbell? 12 A: That's correct. 13 "London CFB Ipperwash. Concern re: 14 Native confrontation. Harassing the 15 Military Police. Feels there will be 16 problems." 17 Now this must be -- it says July 27. 18 Q: It says July 27th. It must be -- 19 A: June 27. 20 Q: -- June 27. 21 A: It would make more sense because it's 22 talking about Canada Day. 23 Q: And at the bottom of the page it 24 looks more like June 28th as well. And then over the 25 page is July 29th.

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes, because this is interspersed. 4 The next note on that same page is June 28th. So it was 5 a handwriting error of my penmanship. 6 Q: On which? 7 A: I would suggest Tuesday should be 8 June 27th at 16:30 that I talked with Colonel Campbell. 9 Because the following note is Wednesday, June 28th at 10 08:00. So that would have had to have been June 28th. 11 Q: Okay. And it's simply meeting with 12 respect to the -- we've talked about the increasing 13 tensions at the Military Base in -- at the end of June? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: And I note that Colonel Campbell -- 16 there's a note: 17 "Will be clearing most equipment by 18 July 15." 19 Is that referring to the military 20 equipment from the Army Camp? 21 A: That's what I understand, sir. 22 Q: And you discussed with him having a 23 meeting with Glen George? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And was there a meeting with Glenn

1 George at -- at or about this time that you attended? We 2 saw a note with respect to Sergeant Bouwman. 3 A: I suspect it's regarding a meeting 4 that Bouwman had I believe. 5 Q: Then on June 28th, you spoke to 6 Inspector Hutchinson? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And that doesn't appear to deal with 9 Ipperwash? 10 A: No, it doesn't. 11 Q: And -- but then you had a discussion 12 about Ipperwash on June 28th with the telephone call with 13 Inspector Linton? 14 A: That's correct. 15 "There was four (4) incidents 16 overnight. We laid charges where 17 information was available. Linton 18 agreed. A meeting in Toronto regarding 19 Military." 20 Q: And without going back, these are the 21 incidents I believe that involved Glen George? 22 A: I would suspect. 23 Q: And then at 12:00 on that day you had 24 a telephone call with Inspector Duffield? 25 A: Yes, I did.

1 Q: And tell us about that? 2 A: There was information from the 3 Military Public Affairs people that there was rumours 4 regarding Ipperwash of a blockade that came from Captain, 5 I believe it's Mark Bossy, of Public Affairs. 6 And that information was provided to our 7 Media Relations staff. 8 Q: And Inspector Duffield was an Officer 9 serving in the office of the Commissioner? 10 A: Yes, he was the Executive Officer. 11 Q: And Marilyn Murray? 12 A: She was the Director of Media 13 Relations. 14 Q: Okay, and then on July 29, 1995, 15 there's a note? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: It's your note, your advice that -- 18 with respect to the takeover of the built-up area? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And when were you advised that the 21 built-up area had been taken over? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I was called on the Saturday

1 afternoon, off duty, and I left my residence at 2 approximately 2:58, 3:00 -- so it was probably slightly 3 earlier than that when I left, but it would be just 4 before that that I was notified. 5 Q: And are you looking at the same note 6 that's page 9 of exhibit -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And there's not a note of the 9 telephone call, but from this note it helps your memory? 10 A: Oh, I recall getting the phone call. 11 I -- I was paged, and I actually -- I -- I believe I 12 picked up Sergeant Wright at a private residence that he 13 was visiting in London, and we proceeded together to the 14 Ipperwash area. 15 Q: And when it says, "CSO activated", 16 what's that refer to? 17 A: Media Relations Officer. 18 Q: Oh. And so you attended at Ipperwash 19 -- at Camp Ipperwash with Sergeant Wright? 20 A: Yes, at 3:30 in the afternoon I was 21 at the main gate. 22 Q: Can you tell us what you did? 23 A: "I met with Captain Doug Smith. He 24 advises that the -- the Natives 25 represented by Bert Manning are

1 ordering the Military to leave. 2 Approximately forty (40) persons in the 3 built-up area. A bus had rammed into 4 the drill hall and reversed into a 5 Jeep. A bus and passenger vehicle was 6 blocking the entrance at the gate. 7 Captain Smith spoke with Manning, 8 allowed them into the church and the 9 officers mess to prevent damage and 10 confrontation." 11 Smith had opened up those buildings. 12 "Discussed with Smith, he must advise 13 the Natives they do not have peaceful 14 possession of the built-up area, and 15 request that they leave immediately. 16 If not, he will request the OPP. The 17 Military is not prepared to seek an 18 injunction. May leave Base if 19 required. Need to store the files and 20 weaponry". 21 Q: And then "- okay"? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And the -- if not -- the reference, 24 if -- if not something request -- will request OPP? 25 A: Correct.

1 Q: Can you tell us about that 2 discussion? 3 A: Well, that was the discussion in 4 regards to making notification to the occupiers that they 5 were, in fact, trespassing in the built-up area, and that 6 he would notify them -- or, my suggestion to him is, you 7 -- if you want us to take any action, first of all you 8 have to notify them they're trespassing. 9 You have to tell them that if they don't 10 agree to leave once they are made aware they are 11 trespassing, then the OPP will be asked to take action. 12 So it was a notification process. 13 Q: And -- but the OPP -- it had been my 14 understanding that the OPP would not take any action 15 without an injunction with respect to the Army Camp? 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And did you discuss that with him? 18 A: Well, it's further on. It says the 19 Military was not prepared to seek an injunction. But I 20 felt it was important for him to make the occupiers aware 21 that, at this point in time, they were, in fact, 22 trespassers. 23 So it was just a notification process. We 24 had no intentions of making any arrests, but we wanted to 25 make it clear about the trespassing or for the Military

1 to make that clear, if they so desired. 2 I mean, that would be their call. 3 Q: And do you know, on July 29th, 1995, 4 if captain Doug Smith did advise the occupiers they were 5 trespassing? 6 A: I believe he did not. 7 Q: He did not? 8 A: Not to my knowledge. 9 Q: And he told you that the Military 10 were not to -- prepared to seek an injunction? 11 A: That's my understanding, yes. 12 Q: And then you called Captain -- Chief 13 Superintendent Coles and advised him of that? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And then on page 10, the next page -- 16 A: I was told... 17 Q: You thought that Colonel Sweeney was 18 going to travel to Forest? 19 A: And he should be arriving in two (2) 20 hours. 21 Q: And Colonel Sweeney was the senior 22 Military Officer? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And then you had another discussion 25 at 7:00 -- at 5:15 with Captain Smith?

1 A: That's right. I had a discussion 2 with Smith. 3 "He advised of the meeting he had with 4 Bert Manning. Has allowed the natives 5 to occupy -- occupy two (2) buildings. 6 The natives will not [I believe it's] 7 force into any other buildings at this 8 time. Captain Smith has not discussed 9 the general travel access to the 10 building -- built-up area. Advised 11 Captain Smith we will be doing ident. 12 work at the drill hall where the damage 13 is to be photographed. 14 Smith to advise Bert Manning prior to 15 travelling to that area." 16 Q: And that refers -- what does that 17 refer to? The bus incident? 18 A: That's correct, and the 19 identification work to be required by the police. 20 Q: And the OPP was investigating the 21 incident with respect to the bus and the Jeep? 22 A: Correct. 23 Q: And was that incident of concern to 24 the OPP? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And why was it of concern to the OPP? 2 A: In our view, it was an overt criminal 3 act. 4 Q: And you asked Captain Smith to advise 5 Bert Manning that the OPP would be going to that area of 6 the built-up area -- of the Army Camp? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: And why did you do that? 9 A: Because I wanted him to make sure 10 that there was no misunderstanding when the police 11 arrived, what -- what functions they would be carrying 12 out. 13 Q: Okay. And then at 17:30 you had a 14 meeting with Maynard George? 15 A: Yes. "He delivered a document, 16 advised that the native people now occupy 17 the Base. I indicated to him that he does 18 not have peaceful possession and therefore 19 it's a trespass. I further advised that 20 anyone on the built-up area is committing 21 an offence and may be arrested and 22 charged. Maynard acknowledged that issue. 23 Sergeant Babbit [who was a Community 24 Service or Media Relations Officer] was 25 briefed on his way to Forest to prepare

1 a media release." 2 Q: And when you say that you advised 3 Maynard George that anyone on the built-up area was 4 committing an offence, and may be arrested and charged, 5 not simply -- what was the charge that you were referring 6 to? 7 A: Off the top of my head I couldn't 8 tell you which one I was thinking about at that 9 particular moment in time, but I wanted him to clearly 10 understand that there was a requirement for him to have 11 peaceful possession of property, and that if he had 12 forcibly taken the property or taking over the property 13 from the Military, that he could, in fact, be charged; or 14 anyone doing so could be charged. 15 Q: Not that you were going to, but that 16 was simply a possibility. 17 A: No, I was just trying to explain to 18 him the legalities of what was taking place. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Then there's a note, "18:10, Captain 23 Smith," what's that note refer to? 24 A: He indicates that the natives do not 25 wish the police identification.

1 Q: And that's with respect to the bus 2 incident? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: Then what happened? You had some 5 discussions with the Forest -- you went back to Forest, 6 you had a discussion with Captain -- Chief Superintendent 7 Coles, and then at 23:35 there's a note, Bob Antone, 8 Bruce Elijah. What's that refer to? 9 A: I believe they -- I'm not sure if 10 they were arriving at the area, I'm not sure what my note 11 is referring to. But I have a note that they're 12 Akwesasne negotiators, or they had been negotiate -- 13 involved in negotiations at Akwesasne, some -- sometime 14 previous, and that it was quiet at that time; both 15 entrances were blocked at the gate. 16 I'm not sure what or how I got that 17 information. 18 Q: Okay. And then at five (5) to 12:00, 19 23:55, you're advised by Constable Vince George that the 20 Military has vacated CFB Ipperwash. "Officers -- 21 A: "Assisted peaceful vacancy." 22 Q: And does "officers" refer to your 23 officers, the OPP officers? 24 A: I believe we had some officers 25 standing by there at the time.

1 Q: And so it was at that point that the 2 Military left? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And what does that mean to you, as 5 the Incident Commander of -- you were still the Incident 6 Commander with respect to the Army Camp? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And the Military leaving the Army 9 Camp, what did that mean to you? 10 A: Well, it created some concern. Here 11 we had the occupiers now taking over the built-up area. 12 There had been a significant incident with the bus and 13 the Jeep, only by good fortune that someone wasn't 14 seriously injured in -- in that altercation. And as a 15 result of that aggression, the Military chose to withdraw 16 from the Military Base to avoid further confrontations. 17 There was discussion or comments made at 18 that time that Ipperwash Park is next. And quite frankly 19 it was causing me serious concern as to what kind of 20 challenges it was going to create from a policing point 21 of view. 22 But I also knew, at that point in time, 23 once that became public knowledge, what had taken place 24 that day, and as the Military vacated, that it was going 25 to cause a tremendous anxiety in the broader community.

1 And, I felt, also within the Kettle Point community, in 2 regards to the potential return of the Military Base in 3 the negotiation process with the Band Council proper. 4 So I could see that this was really going 5 to escalate the challenges that we were going to face, on 6 -- on a whole host of issues. 7 Q: And on July 30th you had a telephone 8 conversation with Chief Superintendent Coles, where some 9 of those challenges; I think you discussed them with him? 10 A: Yes, I did. 11 Q: You -- can you just tell us what your 12 call with Chief Superintendent Coles was about? 13 A: Well, we had quite a discussion, it 14 was more questions than it was answers, I can assure you. 15 I updated him on the overnight issues; issues of the 16 Military -- of the Military, turned over to who, that 17 Chief Tom Bressette, you know, any potential Band Council 18 resolutions that they may seek or desire, like who was 19 the land being returned to. 20 That -- that raises the issue of, you 21 know, is -- does the land get turned back to the 22 occupiers, those who were ticket holders from -- from 23 years ago, the ones who are occupying at this point in 24 time, or the Band -- the official Band at Kettle Point. 25 The whole issue of who has ownership. We

1 still had some anxiety around the whole agreement from 2 '42, and -- and all that process and -- and where that 3 was going to go next. Who do we talk to? 4 We certainly were having difficulty 5 determining who was the leader or Chief. Bert Manning 6 was doing a lot of the talking at this point in time. 7 For quite a period of time it had been Carl George and 8 Glenn was heavily involved in '93 as well, and it just 9 clearly wasn't -- it was not obvious. 10 So we talked about having Superintendent 11 Parkin come up and -- joining me at Forest and some 12 discussions with Ron Fox, who was the -- as we spoke of 13 earlier, the First Nations liaison at the -- the 14 Ministry, and regarding keeping him up to date on what's 15 going on. 16 Q: You and Chief Superintendent Coles 17 discussed you keeping Ron Fox up to date? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: He wasn't part of this conversation? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: And you indicated that -- earlier 22 that you had known Glenn George when you were Detachment 23 Commander or -- and in early -- in May of 1993. Is it 24 fair to say, from your perspective, that over the period 25 of time from May of '93 to the end of June '95 that Glenn

1 George had become more militant in 1995; he hadn't been a 2 militant person as before? 3 A: I -- I think that's a fair 4 observation. And I'd -- I'd have to refer to my notes 5 specifically, but around the -- the incident on Matheson 6 Drive, I believe it was Glenn, it was Glenn or Carl, for 7 sure, but when -- when there was some discussion when the 8 three (3) people were arrested for taking the tolls, we 9 had some discussion to the point that you've made your 10 point publicly, you know, You take your people home, I'll 11 take my people home, and we can all move on here. And it 12 was like, Oh, okay, and -- and away we go. 13 And so, that kind of a -- an ability had - 14 - had been established back then. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 16 Orkin? 17 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Thank you, 18 Commissioner, I hesitate to rise and interrupt the flow, 19 but I just wanted to flag with respect, My Friend's use 20 of the word, "militant," which I think may have overtones 21 that are -- are very subjective, and he may perhaps, 22 respectfully, use another word. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: Certainly. It was -- that had --

1 there was nothing -- you -- the problems that -- that 2 occurred at the end of June 1995 with Glenn George and 3 earlier in -- in 1995, were out of the ordinary, were 4 they not? 5 A: It was certainly a much more 6 aggressive behaviour. 7 Q: That had not happened with Glenn 8 George and the OPP before? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: Or it certainly hadn't happened with 11 the OPP and it hadn't happened, from your understanding, 12 with the Military? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: That's all I was referring to, Mr. 15 Orkin. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 17 would be a good time to take our morning break -- 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- if you're 20 finished with that point. Are you finished with that 21 point? 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes, thank you. 23 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 24 for fifteen (15) minutes. 25

1 --- Upon recessing at 10:29 a.m. 2 --- Upon resuming at 10:48 a.m. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 5 resumed. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, 7 Commissioner. Before we begin I wanted to make an 8 announcement that earlier in the week the Sam George and 9 his family and Murray Klippenstein and Andrew Orkin had 10 put up on the -- taken the initiative and had planned and 11 created the ability to get the proceedings by -- by web- 12 cast on -- over the Internet. 13 And the Commission has discussed the issue 14 with Mr. Orkin and with Mr. Sam -- on behalf of Mr. Sam 15 George, and I'm pleased to announce that the web-cast is 16 now available on the Commission's website. 17 It's www.ipperwashinquiry.ca And it's at 18 no charge. But I wish to acknowledge the work done by 19 Sam George and his family and Mr. Orkin and Mr. 20 Klippenstein in getting this matter up and running. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 22 for your assistance. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: Now, if we could go back to the

1 notes, on July 30th as well, you met with Lieutenant 2 Colonel Sweeney? 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: And Lieutenant Colonel Sweeney -- can 5 you just tell us about your meeting with Lieutenant 6 Colonel Sweeney? 7 A: Yes. I met him at the Forest Golf 8 Course. 9 "He advises that the land has not been 10 turned over to anyone, that the 11 Military left the Base for safety 12 reasons, and will be an issue for 13 Department of National Defence Ottawa. 14 Captain Smith will be remaining local 15 and available, staying at the Forest 16 Golf Course. They will be contacting 17 the Ministry of Natural -- Ministry of 18 Natural Resources, reference: the water 19 supply. And further information will 20 be forthcoming in regards to the Hydro, 21 et cetera." 22 Q: And with respect to the water supply, 23 that was an issue as the water supply for the Base came 24 from the -- from the reservoir on the Park? 25 A: Yes. It's within the Park itself.

1 Yes. 2 Q: And then -- there's in front of you, 3 in Book 1, the large book that's open, at Tab 9 there's a 4 memo to file from Don Matheson, it's Inquiry Document 5 1010278. And he indicates that he had a call from you at 6 9:15 a.m. -- or 9:50 a.m., excuse me, on July 30th to 7 advise -- wherein you advised him that a Colonel, 8 presumed Colonel Sweeney, was being flown in by 9 helicopter, and that you would get back to him after the 10 meeting in regard to MNR's concerns of water quality, 11 quantity, safety, and camper and staff safety. 12 I note that that's not in your -- that 13 there's no note of that in your notes, but do you recall 14 advising Mr. Matheson at 9:50, or in the morning, about 15 the fact that Colonel Sweeney was coming in? 16 A: I didn't make a note of it that I can 17 see, and while I don't remember making that phone call, 18 if it -- I wouldn't be -- I would concur I probably did. 19 Q: Sure. And then I note, on page 12 of 20 your notes there was a -- you called Ron Fox and left him 21 -- and left him a message to call back. Why were you 22 calling Ron Fox? 23 A: I was updating him on the status of 24 what had taken place, to assist him. 25 Q: And then there's a note:

1 "11:30 Sergeant Bowman advised of 2 status [something] contact MNR re: 3 water plant." 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And then there was a -- there's a 6 note that you met with Superintendent Parkin at Forest? 7 A: Yes, Parkin attended Forest 8 Detachment. We reviewed the events to date, discussing 9 further possibilities that we may have to deal with. 10 Staff Sergeant Bowman indicated, he was there as well, 11 that Constable Parks had advised him of comments made 12 during the period when the Military were leaving at 11:30 13 the night before, that were made by some of the 14 occupiers, comments that Ipperwash Park was next. 15 Past discussions with Glen George and 16 Staff Sergeant Bowman, George had stated that Ipperwash 17 and Pinery Park were native lands. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. And then there's a -- 19 there's a note that again Mr. Matheson made, but at this 20 time it's Inquiry Document 1010160. It's a memorandum he 21 did on July 31st, that he attended this -- attended a 22 meeting on the morning of July 31st, at approximately 23 11:30 with you, Constable Speck, and Superintendent 24 Parkin and he doesn't appear in your notes, but you 25 recall --

1 A: Actually he does, sir. 2 Q: Oh, does he? Oh. 3 A: Yeah, at 13:20, the bottom of that 4 page, pardon my writing, but it's: 5 "Assistant Superintendent Don Matheson 6 attended Detachment, briefed and 7 discussed issue of bunkhouse. Twenty 8 (20) beds available." 9 Q: Yeah, he -- he indicates in his notes 10 that he was -- actually met with you and Superintendent 11 Parkin twice on that morning, simply with respect to the 12 issues. 13 But the point that at the meeting at 11:30 14 he says the following: 15 "While at the Forest OPP Detachment, 16 Captain Ross of the Military Police 17 informed Inspector John Carson, 18 Superintendent Tony Parkin, Detective 19 Constable George Speck, and myself, 20 that when he was leaving CFB Ipperwash 21 at approximately 11:30 p.m., 29th of 22 July, 1995, a Native person said to him 23 something to the effect, that the 24 occupancy of Ipperwash Provincial Park 25 was next on their list."

1 And you indicated that the -- one (1) of 2 your Officers had said the same thing, that you reported 3 at this meeting? 4 A: Yeah, I would just suggest it's a -- 5 a misunderstanding of who said what. 6 Q: In any event, the note at the bottom 7 of the page with respect to Assistant Superintendent Don 8 Matheson, and Mr. Matheson was the Assistant 9 Superintendent of Ipperwash Park? 10 A: Yes, they -- I believe the way it 11 worked is the Superintendent and Assistant Superintendent 12 were responsible for both Pinery and Ipperwash. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And he worked for MNR. 15 Q: Yes. And -- 16 A: He was a local resident. 17 Q: And the -- was Mr. Kobayashi a local 18 -- local resident, he was the Superintendent? 19 A: I could be wrong, but it strikes me 20 that Mr. Kobayashi lived in Exeter, I believe, where Don 21 Matheson lived in Ipperwash Beach area. 22 Q: Then at the top of the next page, 23 it's page 13 -- 1355, there's a note about a meeting. 24 What's that refer to? 25 A: This is a native meeting at 14:30 or

1 2:30 p.m. 2 "Group and others? ID liaison per 3 person, next meeting at 15:00, 4 information from Bert Manning." 5 And I've got a note or an arrow with Mark 6 Wright. I'm not sure, but I can only presume that Mark 7 Wright provided me that information. 8 Q: And then there's a note that you 9 spoke to Ron Fox and updated him, is that correct? 10 A: Yes, at two o'clock. Updated him 11 about the events overnight, regarding the Military and 12 public safety. 13 Q: And then there was a -- you had a 14 number of discussions with Wade Jacklin? 15 A: Yes. In regards to calling in the 16 Emergency Response Officers. That they were -- the 17 equipment they were to attend -- to attend with and be 18 prepared to be there for a couple -- two (2) nights. And 19 we're looking for twelve (12) officers at least, and we 20 would get extra officers from London, if necessary. 21 Q: And then at 4:15 you had a briefing 22 with Superintendent Parkin? 23 A: Yes. We set up a program where we 24 had -- or a patrol where we had Steve McDonald, who was a 25 sergeant, and that there be twenty-four (24) hour

1 coverage of -- of supervision. 2 Q: And that's at the Park or the Army 3 Camp? 4 A: Well, that would be for the patrol of 5 the -- of the general area. 6 Q: Okay. And then Superintendent Coles 7 attended? 8 A: Yes, he did. 9 Q: And who else attended the meeting? 10 Was this in Forest? 11 A: I believe it would have to be, yes. 12 Q: And the -- who else attended the 13 meeting? There was yourself, Chief Superintendent Coles? 14 A: My notes says here "MNR discussion, 15 Ron Baldwin", but I'm not sure if the discussion was in 16 regards to Ron Baldwin or with Ron Baldwin. He's the MNR 17 director out of Aylmer. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: But I -- I'm not sure what -- what 20 that's referring to other than the MNR interest around 21 the Provincial Park. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: And the notifications will be made by 24 Chief Superintendent Coles to notify Bill Currie, who I 25 believe, at the time, was acting as Deputy Commissioner

1 for a short period of time. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: And an issue sheet would be developed 4 for Monday a.m., which would just be the typical briefing 5 note that would go forward to general headquarters. 6 Q: Then there's a note "Military 7 position", did you discuss that? 8 A: Yeah, this would just be the -- the 9 discussion points regarding the Military position, the 10 Kettle Point position, particularly Chief Bressette, who 11 the spokesperson would be for the Native group, and the 12 NCO as being the supervisors available at the location 13 here in Forest. 14 Q: And "Military media", what's that 15 refer to? 16 A: At some point I was made aware that a 17 military -- I'll say Military medic. I'm not sure if 18 it's medic or media; it could be either one "Captain 19 Landale" --I'm not sure what that refers to. 20 Q: Then if I could take you to the next 21 note at 21:30, there's a briefing note prepared with 22 Detective Sergeant Mark Wright. 23 "Janet Vanderberg prepared -- delivered 24 to London for e-mail to Nancy 25 Mansell."?

1 A: Correct. 2 Q: And if I could take you to Book 1, 3 Tab 6, Inquiry Document 1000939. There's a document 4 entitled "Canadian Forces Base Ipperwash". It's a two 5 (2) page document that appears to have your signature on 6 the -- or your name is on the second page, J.F. Carson. 7 A: Yes, it is. 8 Q: This is the note that was prepared 9 that's being referred to here? 10 A: Yes, it is. 11 Q: And perhaps we could mark this as the 12 next exhibit? 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-412, Your Honour. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-412. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-412: Document Number 1000939, CFB 17 Ipperwash bulletin on 18 background, Issue and action 19 taken by OPP re: Base May/93 20 TO July 31/95, prepared by 21 J.F. Carson. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 24 Q: Then if I could take you to Tab 7, 25 Book 1, that same book in front of you. There's an e-

1 mail that's dated July 30th, 1995 at 16:47. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And it's -- identifies you as Acting 4 Superintendent John Carson, as the -- the last one, at 5 this point in time in July of 1995, you are -- had been 6 made an Acting Superintendent? 7 A: Yes. I had been doing -- I had been 8 fulfilling that role for about a year at that time. 9 Q: Oh, for about a year? 10 A: I think since June of '94. 11 Q: Okay. And the -- this is an e-mail, 12 from what I look at it -- read from it, it's to all 13 members, Lambton, Kent, and Essex Counties. And it's a - 14 - I take it there's a distribution system? 15 A: Yes, what this is is -- you're 16 correct in that it's an e-mail. It's -- it's a message 17 capability within our then Records Management system 18 where we enter our occurrence reports. So any Officer 19 who logs on to enter occurrence information would check 20 their mail messages. 21 And this message went out on the Internal 22 Occurrence Management System for distribution to all 23 Officers within the Kent, Essex, and Lampton geographic 24 area. 25 Q: And it was sent out by you or on your

1 instructions? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And I note that it refers to the 4 Military leaving at approximately 11:30 p.m. on July 29. 5 "The Military has not given up their claim," and then it 6 goes on, 7 "Our concern is now that of the 8 adjacent properties, in particular, 9 Ipperwash Provincial Park and 10 integrated response is put in place. I 11 am the incident Commander in this 12 matter, Superintendent A. Parkin who is 13 the Superintendent in charge of 14 operations for West Region is an 15 overall Commander of the incident. 16 Chief Superintendent Coles of West