1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 May 11th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )    (np)
  5  Katherine Hensel  )    (np)
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein )  (np)      The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )   (np)     George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    )            Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena  (Army Camp)
 18  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stony
 19  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 20  Colleen Johnson  )   (np)
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Susan Freeborn   )   (np)
 25  Michelle Pong    )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )              Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Ian Smith        )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )
 11  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 12  Jacqueline Horvat )
 13  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 14  Trevor Hinnegan     ) 
 15  
 16  Mark Sandler       )            Ontario Provincial 
 17  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 18  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 19  
 20  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 21  Karen Jones      )              Police Association &
 22  Debra Newell     )   (np)       K. Deane
 23  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
 24  Annie Leeks      )
 25  Jennifer Gleitman )

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )              Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  Clem Nabigon     )   (np)
  7  Adriel Weaver     )   (np)       Student-at-Law
  8  
  9  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
 10  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 11  
 12  William Horton   )              Chiefs of Ontario
 13  Matthew Horner   )
 14  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 15  
 16  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 17  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 18  Megan Mackey     )   (np)
 19  Erin Tully       )
 20  
 21  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 22  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 23  Melissa Panjer   )
 24  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 9 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Certificate of Transcript 222 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-401 Telecommunications Ten Codes used by 4 OPP in 1993-1995 10 5 P-402 Document No. 7000282 letter from Major 6 General W.B. Vernon, Commander, Dept. of 7 National Defence to Commissioner T. 8 O'Grady OPP re: meeting with Wall & Carson 9 about occupation of Camp Ipperwash Stoney 10 Point Group 118 11 P-403 Document Number 1010495, London Free 12 Press Article, "Camp Ipperwash-Toll 13 Collectors held for Bail Hearing" 167 14 P-404 Document Number 2002648 July 21/93 letter 15 to Sheriff Ed Finlon, London Courthouse 16 from Detective Sergeant M.A. Wright, 17 number 5901 OPP Petrolia Re: Complaint 18 against Mr. Scott Ewart, Licensed Bailiff 167 19 P-405 Search Warrant Camp Ipperwash 1993 20 photos taken by Constable Evans, OPP 21 from helicopter, photos 0302 to 0324 22 CD ROM 204 23 24 25

1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-406 Document Number 2002494 Aug. 24/93 4 Letter to the Commissioner OPP.-Toronto, 5 from J.F.Carson, Inspector OPP Forest 6 Re: CFB Ipperwash/Stoney Point. 208 7 P-407 Document Number 2000990 Sept.24/93. 8 MSGCS Briefing Note, Issue: native 9 demonstration Camp Ipperwash 210 10 P-408 Document Number 2000716, May 02/94 11 letter to the Superintendent OPP 12 Chatham from Detective Sergeant M.A. 13 Wright, OPP. Re: operational 14 plan-occupation of CFB Ipperwash 214 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon convening at 10:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 7 JOHN FREDERICK CARSON, Resumed: 8 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 10 Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 12 morning. Good morning, Deputy Commissioner. 13 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 15 everybody. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Before we start, I 20 thought perhaps before I forget, we should mark a 21 document that was provided to me, Commissioner, by Mr. 22 Sandler's office, and it's -- I've provided a copy of 23 this to all of the parties. It's a document that lists 24 telecommunication codes used by the OPP back in 1993. 25 And it's in the small -- there it should be in that one

1 on your right hand, Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think I 3 took it out yesterday. That's fine. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The small one that was 5 in your right hand. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 7 think there's anything there. I took it out yesterday. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh. It's gotten -- it 9 looks like this. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think I 11 know the one you mean. There it is. 12 13 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Okay. If we could mark that -- I'll 15 ask Deputy Commissioner Carson, this document that's 16 listed telecommunications, it has a number of codes on 17 it. Is that the -- a sheet of the codes in use by the 18 Ontario Provincial Police in 1993 and in 1995? 19 A: That's correct, it's a standard ten 20 (10) code list. 21 Q: It's a standard -- the ten (10) code 22 is a standard list used by police officers? 23 A: It's an international code -- ten 24 (10) code used for transmissions for brief messages for 25 policing.

1 Q: And perhaps that could be marked the 2 next exhibit, it would be Exhibit 401. 3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 401, Your Honour. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 401. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-401: Telecommunications Ten Codes 7 used by OPP in 1993-1995 8 9 CONTINUED BY DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: And, another thing I was going to ask 11 you yesterday, when you were in Forest as the Detachment 12 Commander, you were there for approximately four (4) 13 years, did you know Dudley George when you were in 14 Forest? 15 A: Not personally, no. I -- I knew the 16 name, but I didn't know him personally. 17 Q: And Mr. Sam George, did you know Mr. 18 Sam George? 19 A: Yes, I'd met Sam. Sam, I believe at 20 that time was working with Kettle Point in regards to 21 assisting persons with job opportunities, if I'm not 22 mistaken, a -- a counsellor, I believe. And he had 23 attended my office on occasion and, if my memory serves 24 me correctly, we had worked together for some co-op 25 programs, I believe.

1 Q: And if I could take you to Exhibit 2 397, please, it's the book of notes and your notes. If 3 you get both of them out in case we have a problem. It's 4 the book of notes dealing with 1990, 1993, and 1994. 5 At Tab 3, page 38, it's June 1st, 1993... 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: Yes? 10 Q: And that's your note? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: And again, as you told us yesterday, 13 these notes were made at or about the time of the event 14 or shortly thereafter? 15 A: Yes, sir, they were. 16 Q: And this note simply, as I read it, 17 is a note of a planning meeting on June the 1st at the 18 Chatham District Headquarters; is that correct? 19 A: Yes, I had met at the District 20 Headquarters in Chatham with Staff Sergeant Lacroix and 21 Detective Staff Sergeant Matthews. 22 Q: And where it says, "prepare 23 operational plans," does that relate to Ipperwash? 24 A: Yes, particularly in regards to the 25 Military issues there. Staff Sergeant Lacroix was the

1 prime individual assisting me with those plans. 2 Q: And Staff Sergeant Lacroix, at the 3 time, was based in Petrolia? 4 A: Yes, he was the Detachment Commander 5 of that Detachment. 6 Q: And if I could then take you to the 7 next page, it's June the 3rd, I believe, and it's 13:55 8 at 10:21, that's a telephone call to Chief 9 Superintendent's office; is that correct? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And could you just tell us briefly 12 what you discussed with the -- the Chief Superintendent? 13 A: My notes indicate that there were no 14 issues with any points discussed. 15 Q: You discussed the operational plan 16 first and he had no issue with any of those points? 17 A: Correct. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: "Discussed legal position, ownership 20 of the property still not determined. 21 Chief Superintendent prepared to main - 22 - to maintain the present status, 23 pending further developments." 24 Q: And the reference to "ownership of 25 property still not determined," what does that refer to?

1 A: That refers to the discussions in 2 regards to the colour of right issues around the return 3 of the property and if, in fact, if there were, for lack 4 of a better term, grey areas around ownership. 5 Q: Okay. And on the next page, June the 6 3rd, 19:10, is it 10:21 -- pardon me? June the 4th, 7 excuse me. Oh, thank you, I missed one. 8 And at the bottom of the page on page 40: 9 "19:10, 10:21 to Sergeant Bell. He 10 will be at Ipperwash 13:00 Saturday, 05 11 June '93. Will also be available 12 Sunday if required. Will photo and 13 take plates of vehicles attending pow- 14 wow." 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And was that a pow-wow at the Army 17 Camp? 18 A: That was my understanding, yes. 19 Q: And Sergeant Bell's task at this time 20 was to identify people going in and out of the occupied 21 area of the Army Camp? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: Then if I could take you to page 42, 24 June the 7th. The first entry is at 14:00, it's a 25 telephone call to, I can't read that.

1 A: Superintendent Wall. 2 Q: Okay. And the first -- 3 A: "Discussed operations plan was okay. 4 Legal opinion regarding the Trespass of 5 Property Act. Superintendent will 6 contact all division superintendents 7 and update re: operational plan." 8 Q: The reference to legal opinion re: 9 Trespass to Property Act; can you tell us what that was 10 about? 11 A: To tell you the truth I -- I don't 12 know what the essence of the discussion was. I -- I know 13 we had some -- we had researched some issues around the 14 Trespass to Property Act and the defence controlled 15 access regulations on the Military Base. 16 So I -- it would be speculation be around 17 that type of issues. 18 Q: One (1) of those issues? 19 A: Right. 20 Q: Then you had a telephone call at 2:15 21 with Staff Sergeant Lacroix and it's as I read it, he -- 22 you discussed the logistic plan being discussed. He was 23 going to fax it. And Staff Sergeant Lacroix is to 24 prepare joining instructions? 25 A: That's correct.

1 Q: And what does that refer to? 2 A: That means he would -- he would 3 prepare a -- basically a checklist if officers were going 4 to be requested to attend the area for an assignment that 5 upon arrival or either on arrival or prior to them being 6 deployed, they would be provided a list of instructions. 7 Normal things would be like where they 8 report to, the kit they'd be expected to bring with them; 9 those types of logistics. 10 Q: And then at 16:15 there's a telephone 11 call from Greg Cherewyk, SIU, C-H-E-R-E-W-Y-K, SIU. I 12 take it from what our discussion was yesterday, that's 13 the Military notice -- 14 A: It's Military Special Investigations. 15 Q: -- from the Military. 16 A: Military Police. 17 Q: And he's giving you some advice from 18 an informant; is that correct? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: And this advice was that there was a 21 number, a hundred (100) AK47 rifles -- 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: -- at Kettle Point in the Ipperwash 24 area? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And can you -- 2 A: "The Natives were preventing access 3 to road adjacent to Outer Drive since 4 late last week. Feels camps are moving 5 closer to the bush area. Feels his 6 informant is reliable." 7 Q: And the road that's being referred 8 to, adjacent to Outer Drive is -- was -- was it your 9 understanding that was within the Army Camp? 10 A: I believe so. 11 Q: It wasn't a public road outside of 12 the Army Camp that was being referred to? 13 A: No, I don't think so. I believe it 14 was access with the Military personnel. 15 Q: Okay. Then if I could take you to 16 page 44. And there's a reference June 8th, 1993, at 17 10:30 there's a -- you received a call from Staff 18 Sergeant Lorne Smith. 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And he indicates that he's received 21 information that people from Kettle Point will block 22 Highway 21 on June the 17th? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: And he indicated there were strong 25 feelings between -- could you read that last --

1 A: Yes. "There will be strong feelings 2 between the Kettle Point and Stoney 3 Point people." 4 Q: And so that was a concern. Is this 5 the first time you had heard of a possible blockage of 6 highway 21? 7 A: I believe so, yes. 8 Q: And then did you have -- at 14:05 9 there's another entry? 10 A: Yes, I had proceeded to the Grand 11 Bend Detachment and met with Staff Sergeant Smith. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: We discussed the issue at length. 14 Staff Sergeant Smith had been the liaison Officer with 15 Kettle Point for many years prior as a Supervisor at the 16 Forest Detachment, and -- and he knew a lot of people in 17 the Kettle Point area. 18 Q: So, he -- 19 A: So, he had a -- and he -- he 20 supervised the First Nations Policing Program for many 21 years, so he -- he had a -- a very sound understanding of 22 the local politics. 23 Q: And did acting Staff Sergeant Smith 24 reside in the Forest area? 25 A: Yes, he had -- he had been in the

1 area for many years. 2 Q: But was he living at -- back in 1993 3 was he still living here, do you know? 4 A: Close by. 5 Q: Okay? 6 A: In -- in -- within the county here. 7 Q: And the note goes on to say that 8 Lorne feels KP people upset? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Then can you just tell us a little 11 bit more based on your notes of what -- 12 A: Yes, he feels there was a secret 13 meeting in regards to the possible road closure. He 14 doesn't feel the Natives would use firearms or become 15 violent unless outsiders became involved. 16 He also requested that I not use him as a 17 negotiator, and explained for personal reasons he didn't 18 want to get involved, while he did support, you know, 19 somebody doing that function. 20 Q: But he simply didn't want to -- 21 A: He didn't want to do it, personally. 22 Q: Then at page 46, June 9th, 1993, 23 there's a note. Now, Deputy Commissioner, if there's -- 24 I'm simply highlighting some of these notes. There's 25 pages and pages of them, but if there's something that

1 you would like to highlight that I haven't, or draw to 2 the Commissioner's attention, please stop me and we'll do 3 that? 4 A: Thank you. 5 Q: At the top of the page, there's an 6 entry "June 9, 1993, 15:30 P.C. Morse, Intel advised -- 7 advising 1021"? 8 A: Yes, he -- he had called me. 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: "Disregard the detail re: monitoring 11 for the weekend. Keep the 17th of June open re: possible 12 blockade". 13 Q: And, was P.C. Morse a -- an Ontario 14 Provincial police officer, or was he an RCMP officer? 15 A: He was part of the joint forces team. 16 I -- I'm not sure if he was one of ours of if -- the RCMP 17 officer. 18 Q: Can you tell us, back in 1993, what 19 the -- I think it's called JFO. It's joint -- 20 A: It's a Joint Forces Intelligence 21 Operation, yes. It's a JFO that was based out of London. 22 Sergeant Bell was the Supervisor, and there was 23 representation from OPP, RCMP, and London City Police on 24 that unit. 25 Q: And what did it deal with, generally?

1 A: Well, their responsibility was to 2 monitor criminal activity, generally speaking, for the 3 greater -- it would be the London district as -- from a - 4 - an OPP perspective, but within the city of London and 5 the surrounding area that may affect all the police 6 agencies. 7 Q: So -- so this wasn't a -- a -- an -- 8 this JFO wasn't set up simply to deal with Camp Ipperwash 9 and the issues at Ipperwash back in 1993; it was a 10 general cooperation among police forces? 11 A: Oh, absolutely. It -- it -- it 12 certainly was not specific to Ipperwash. They had many 13 other duties before and after. 14 Q: And it was simply used -- some of the 15 people that -- that were involved in the JFO were 16 Officers serving with the OPP and used the assistance of 17 other Officers in the JFO? 18 A: Correct. 19 Q: Then on June 11, 1993, page 47, at 20 11:40 there -- you received a telephone call from Staff 21 Sergeant Beacock. He had met with Tom Bressette and Carl 22 George; is that correct? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And can you just tell us what you 25 recall, using your notes as to what Staff Sergeant

1 Beacock told you? 2 A: Tom Bressette indicated: 3 "The Federal Government advising 4 they're not turning the Base over. 5 Will discuss other lands and money. No 6 demonstration on Highway 21. Carl 7 George denies any knowledge of 8 firearms. A bulldozer comment." 9 Apparently there was a comment he had made 10 earlier about a bulldozer, was said to have been in jest, 11 and that he didn't participate in any meeting. 12 "Appears there was mixed feelings re: 13 the federal discussions, and more 14 meetings were planned in the future." 15 Q: So the advice that you received from 16 Staff Sergeant Beacock was that he had been told by Chief 17 Tom Bressette that the Federal Government wasn't going to 18 turn the Base over, at least in June of 1993? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: Then if I could take you to the next 21 page, page 48, Saturday, June 12th, '93. At nine o'clock 22 you received a telephone call from Acting Sergeant Parks, 23 I take it? 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: And he's simply advising you that a

1 new camp had been set up at the Base between the creek 2 and the barracks? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: And that's -- was along Highway 21? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And there's a note of -- on June the 7 13th, '95, again you receive -- can you tell us what that 8 note says; It's at 8:30. 9 A: At 8:30 in the morning I personally 10 patrolled the Ipperwash area, viewed where the new camp 11 was set up, and noted that there was no significant new 12 activity other than that new camp. 13 Q: At this point in time, in 1993, you 14 were still living in Forest? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And when did you physically move from 17 Forest? 18 A: August the 1st of that year. 19 Q: Of that year? Then if I could take 20 you to page 50. The top of the page, Tuesday June 15th, 21 1993, 11:45 you received a telephone call from Acting 22 Staff Sergeant Beacock. 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: And -- 25 A: He spoke to me in regards to a

1 meeting at Bosanquet Township where concerns were raised 2 about potential problems. There was some emergency 3 planning taking place. He had spoke with Ken Williams, 4 who's administrator at Bosanquet Township in Thetford. 5 Constable Silverman had received a call 6 from Brent Hodsdon, Ministry of Natural Resources, will 7 serve a letter on Ipperwash Provincial Park re: the 8 ownership; and that there was -- Howard Hampton, one (1) 9 of the MPPs, was -- was to visit the Pinery Provincial 10 Park on Friday the June the 18th to open a new visitors 11 centre that had been constructed. 12 And on the 14th of June, Maynard and Carl 13 attended Bosanquet Township, claiming the land from 14 Ravenswood to Goderich to Park Hill, with the exception 15 of the village of Grand Bend. 16 Q: And this is being reported to you by 17 Acting Staff Sergeant Beacock, who had it reported to him 18 by Ken Williams? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: And Ken Williams was the 21 administrator of the Township of Bosanquet? 22 A: Quite -- right. 23 Q: And so it was third hand by the time 24 it got to you? 25 A: That's right.

1 Q: And Howard Hampton, at the time, in 2 1993, was a member of the government? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And the letter that was being 5 referred to by Silverman, it's -- Constable Silverman had 6 received the letter from Brent Hodsdon, is that what the 7 note -- what's that about? 8 A: I'm not sure if he had served a 9 letter to Silverman or he was going to produce a letter 10 affirming the ownership of the Park. 11 Q: That was simply related to who owned 12 the Park? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Then later that day at 12:10, you 15 spoke with Detective Superintendent Wall on the phone, 16 and can you tell us -- review that conversation? 17 A: Yes, and I guess and just to correct 18 my last comment in regards to the ownership, this 19 clarifies it here somewhat, because the update to 20 Superintendent Wall goes that I updated him on the latest 21 information and that I had raised the concern about 22 serving notice to the natives in regarding to Ipperwash 23 Park. 24 So the gist of the earlier discussion must 25 have been that the Ministry of Natural Resources were

1 going to serve the occupiers with a letter in regards to 2 Park ownership. 3 "A letter to KP will state that the 4 Park is not -- a letter to Kettle Point 5 will state that the Park is not a part 6 of the land claim issue. Park properly 7 purchased and processed. Advised of 8 latest land claim at Thedford, also 9 that Kettle Point people left the area. 10 Cadets are coming the first week of 11 July." 12 Q: And the reference to the latest land 13 claim at Thedford is a report that you received with 14 respect to the land from Ravenswood Wood Road to Goderich 15 to Parkhill? 16 A: I believe so, yes. 17 Q: And what was your concern with 18 respect to serving the occupiers with respect to notice 19 regarding Ipperwash Park? 20 A: Well, as I -- as I read the note at 21 12:10 I'm not sure if it was a notice to the occupiers, 22 or if it was a notice to the Kettle Point Band in regards 23 to affirming the ownership, but I don't recall what my 24 particular concern was at the time. But as -- as I 25 recall, there was no outstanding land claim against

1 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 2 So it kind of seemed to me or -- or it 3 seems to me a moot point to -- to make an issue of 4 pointing out the ownership of the Park. 5 Q: Then, if I could take you to page 53, 6 June 17th, '93 at 3:05: 7 "Received a telephone call from Major 8 Bob Howell at CFB Downsview." 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And that's simply setting up a 13 meeting. 14 A: Yes, a meeting they were setting up 15 with myself, for the first of the week, with Major Doug 16 Wright wishing to attend. 17 "Will arrive at the London District 18 Headquarters on Monday the 21st of 19 June, between 10:00 and 10:30." 20 Q: And then there's a reference at 21 fourteen (14) -- 15:45 in the afternoon. You had a 22 telephone call with Detective Superintendent Tom Wall and 23 updated re: meeting and Military appointment for Monday? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And what -- do you recall what the

1 meeting is that you updated him about? 2 A: I'd have to go to the notes of the 3 21st of June to see what the meeting actually -- 4 Q: Okay. No, but updated re: meeting -- 5 oh, I see. 6 A: The meeting is -- is going to occur. 7 Q: On -- on the Monday. 8 A: I was just giving him a heads up that 9 it was coming. 10 Q: I just read that, I'm sorry. And he 11 advised... 12 A: He advised me that Deputy 13 Commissioner Campbell supports the current direction 14 that's being worked upon. 15 Q: Okay. Then, I note at 16:15 there's 16 a note: 17 "Few people at camps, minimal 18 activity." 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: Do you drive by the Army -- Army Camp 21 at that point? What's that based on? 22 A: Yes, it appears I was in the general 23 area until about eight o'clock that night, so I -- I must 24 have driven by personally. 25 Q: Then I may be taking you back, but on

1 the next page, page 54, there's a -- a note that I think 2 tells about the meeting. There's a note June 17th, '93 3 at 13:30. These pages may be out of order. 4 A: Yes, it is. 5 Q: And that's a meeting that you had 6 with the MNR? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: And it was attended by Acting Staff 9 Sergeant... 10 A: Lorne Smith, Superintendent Les 11 Kobayashi, Enforcement Specialist Brett Hodsdon and Terry 12 -- I don't have the surname -- I believe is a -- 13 Q: Humberstone? 14 A: In all likelihood, that's probably 15 it. 16 Q: And when you say, "Enforcement 17 Specialist Brett Hodsdon", what did you understand, back 18 in 1993, that an -- the role of an Enforcement Specialist 19 with the MNR? 20 A: Well, the Ministry of Natural 21 Resources have a number of investigative personnel as 22 part of their enforcement team, and there are some who 23 have supervisory or special -- special assignments in 24 regards to enforcement. Some may specialize in -- in 25 fish or gaming areas of their business.

1 So, it's just a -- a matter of someone 2 having a special assignment, as I understood it. 3 Q: Okay. And... 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Prior to going on with this meeting, 8 I wanted to just take you back -- in the black book 9 that's in front of you, the small black book, there's a 10 letter that's been marked Exhibit P-181 and it's Inquiry 11 Document 2001235. It's at Tab 16. 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: And this letter shows you as having 14 received a copy and it refers to a notice having been 15 served by Mr. Scott Ewart, on June the 9th, at 16 approximately 10:30. And there's a document attached 17 that's entitled "Notice Department of National Defence, 18 Ipperwash Cadet Camp". 19 And -- were the documents attached to the 20 letter attached to it -- is that the notice that was 21 received by -- that you understood the Department of 22 National Defence had received? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And what was your understanding that 25 this notice had referred to?

1 A: Well, it indicates in this memo that: 2 "Maynard George had stated the above 3 notice had been served, giving the 4 Military thirty (30) days to vacate the 5 premises, or their next step may be to 6 move in with bulldozers." 7 Q: And that perhaps was the bulldozer 8 comment that we had -- 9 A: Correct, I believe so. 10 Q: -- that we just spoke about a minute 11 ago? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And if I could take you to P-182 14 which is at Tab 18 in the book that's in front of you. 15 This is Inquiry Document 2002536. 16 It's a letter dated June 11, 1993, and, 17 again, it's a -- a copy shown to you. And this refers to 18 a discussion that we had a few moments ago, that Sergeant 19 Beacock had attended an information meeting with 20 Bosanquet Township officials at 9:30 on June 11th, and 21 they discussed Camp Ipperwash and the problems that it 22 might create. 23 And he was informed -- Sergeant Beacock 24 says that Maynard George and Carl George had attended the 25 office of Bosanquet Township on June the 14th with large

1 maps indicating land claims from Ravenswood Road east of 2 Parkhill and north to Goderich, with the exception of the 3 village of Grand Bend. 4 And then at the bottom of the page, Brent 5 Hodsdon, Elmer, MNR, advised Acting Sergeant Silverman 6 that Pinery Park Superintendent Les Kobayshi will be 7 presenting a letter to Maynard George later this date, 8 informing George that the Ministry of Nature Resources 9 own Ipperwash Provincial Park. 10 Hodsdon also advised that the Honourable 11 Howard Hampton would be visiting Pinery Provincial Park, 12 Friday, June 18th, 1993 to open a new visitor centre. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then Sergeant Beacock says: 15 "My concern would be: Should the 16 Ministry of Natural Resources serve the 17 above mentioned letter on Maynard 18 George, and the First Nations people 19 become aware of Mr. Hampton's visit to 20 Pinery Park -- Provincial Park on June 21 18th, 1993, some type of demonstration 22 may occur during his attendance." 23 And so the concern that Staff Sergeant 24 Beacock had was from a policing perspective with respect 25 to a demonstration if a letter was sent that day?

1 A: That's right. 2 Q: Then we could go back to June 17th, a 3 meeting at page 54. 4 As I look at this, this simply is a 5 meeting to discuss the possibility of what would happen 6 if there was a occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park in 7 1993? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And the -- there's a reference, the - 10 -after operations planning, there's a line: "Command Post 11 participation". Have I read that correctly? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: And what does that refer to, sir? 14 A: That means that there would be 15 representation from the Ministry of Natural Resources in 16 our command post. It would be like a joint management 17 team. 18 Q: With respect to...? 19 A: Any Ipperwash Park issues. 20 Q: Okay. And we'll come back to that, 21 because that was something that happened later on in 22 1990. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 Q: I have a -- My Friend, Mr. Horton, 2 points out that there is an implicit assumption in my 3 question. And the assumption was and perhaps from out of 4 that there was going to be an occupation of the Park. 5 What was being discussed at this point in 6 time? 7 A: The issue at this time was that the 8 Military may take some unilateral action in regards to 9 the occupation of the firing ranges. 10 If that was to happen, it would be 11 necessary to secure the area around the Military Base to 12 allow them to carry that out if they did proceed. In 13 doing so, we would have restricted access to the general 14 area and may require the Ipperwash Park be evacuated. 15 Also, there was some concern that if 16 action was taken against the occupiers by the Military in 17 regards to the Army Base, there was the potential of the 18 attention being turned to the Provincial Park. 19 Q: So that was the concern at the time? 20 A: Yes, and it was a matter of 21 brainstorming all the options, so that Ministry of 22 Natural Resources could prepare some action plans that 23 they could deal with, and that they were aware that we 24 were developing some plans and that the two (2) 25 operational needs would be worked out in -- in concert.

1 Q: And so at this point in time it was 2 still -- there was still -- there was still a live 3 possibility that the Military might take some action on 4 its own? 5 A: Very much so. 6 Q: I thank My Friend Mr. Horton, 7 Commissioner. 8 Now, as a result of that meeting, what if 9 anything was done? Was there a plan created or what 10 happened immediately after June 17th with respect to this 11 issue, if anything? 12 A: Well, the OPP had our own operational 13 plan that I think we talked about yesterday -- 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: And we were suggesting that the 16 Ministry of Natural Resources develop their own 17 contingency plans which, I understand, that they were 18 working on. 19 Q: Then on page 57, June 18th, 1993, you 20 received a telephone call from Ken Williams at Bosanquet 21 Township, and could you tell us what that call was about, 22 briefly? 23 A: On June the 18th? 24 Q: June the 18th. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: Yes, I received a call about 10:20 in 4 the morning from Ken Williams from Bosanquet Township. 5 He indicated he had a visit from Maynard George. 6 He was sharing with me that if there was 7 an eviction that they would have to use other lands, 8 reiterated the claim to Godrich to Ravenswood. 9 And again, I shared with them that we were 10 developing operational plans. The Township was preparing 11 evacuation procedures, and that there would be a meeting 12 when the plans were developed so that we could compare 13 the potential operational needs. 14 Q: And, what were -- what was the 15 Township -- did you understand why the Township was 16 preparing evacuation procedures at this point in time? 17 A: Well, it was contingency planning in 18 the event that we had to secure that area. I think it's 19 important to note, depending on how the Military 20 proceeded, our advice had been and continued to be that 21 they seek an injunction. 22 If it was necessary for them in the type 23 of injunction they would seek to serve notice on the 24 occupiers, that hearing would take place. 25 It's my understanding that that could be

1 for a period of time, in fact could be a significant 2 period of time between notice and actual hearing. 3 And it would be necessary to set up and 4 secure the area, in the interim, from the time of notice 5 until the actual time of the execution of the order. 6 And so, that area -- to secure that area 7 would require quite a significant geography around the 8 Military Base to prevent additional people coming in as 9 supporters for the occupation itself. So, that would 10 include a fair bit of population within Bosanquet 11 Township, so they needed to understand what impact that 12 would have. 13 Q: And so the planning at this point in 14 time was to -- in the event that something did happen to 15 isolate the Army Camp, is that -- 16 A: Correct. 17 Q: And that would require the OPP to do 18 things on Outer Drive, Highway 21, and Army Camp Road? 19 A: I would suggest the planning was such 20 that it would be much broader than that. It would have 21 to go back to the junction at Northville at 79 and 21, 22 and perimeter roads that would actually take it back as 23 far as Ravenswood. 24 Q: Okay. Then on that same day, you had 25 a -- at 13:15 you spoke with Sergeant Beacock again.

1 It's in the middle of the page, sir, June 18, 1993? 2 A: At 13:15? 3 Q: June 18 at 13:15 -- or, 11:15, excuse 4 me? 5 A: Oh, I see, okay. Yes, I did. 6 Q: And you asked him to locate Maynard 7 George? 8 A: Yes, I asked him to locate Maynard 9 and discuss the Stoney Point position with cadets coming 10 in soon. We're prepared to discuss the issues regarding 11 the Military. 12 Q: Were they prepared to discuss issues 13 with Military? 14 A: What's -- well, that -- that was the 15 question. Were they prepared to -- 16 Q: Okay? 17 A: -- we wanted to seek that information 18 out. 19 Q: Then something had been damaged over 20 night? 21 A: It looks like steel -- steel marker 22 posts of some sort were damaged over night. I -- I'm not 23 sure which steel markers those are. 24 Q: It -- I think it's steel marker posts 25 damaged over night?

1 A: Right. 2 Q: And the Military felt that the 3 occupiers were responsible? 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: And do you have any idea where those 6 posts were? 7 A: No, it doesn't -- I -- I don't 8 recall. 9 Q: And on the next page, page 58, June 10 18, '93 again at 14:00 hours, you got a telephone call 11 from Sergeant Dan Bell -- Don Bell, excuse me? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: And can you tell us about what you 14 learned in that telephone call? 15 A: I got a call from Sergeant Don Bell. 16 It indicated he had met with Chief Tom Bressette and 17 Earl. 18 Q: Do you know who Earl was? 19 A: I believe it's Earl Bressette. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: "No significant new information. ID 22 of the video that was taken of the 23 individual breaking the lock was Bert 24 Manning. Bell indicates that a Native 25 informant who may participate with the

1 Camp as a result of Maynard..." 2 Q: Soliciting? 3 A: Yes. 4 "...soliciting assistance regarding 5 support and participation." 6 Q: So, Sergeant Bell was having 7 discussions with Chief Tom Bressette as well? 8 A: Correct. 9 Q: Then on -- at page 60 there's a note 10 Monday, June 21st to June -- at 9:50 a telephone 11 discussion with Acting Staff Sergeant Beacock. 12 A: That's correct. He indicates a memo 13 he's received from Ron Baldwin from the Ministry of 14 Natural Resources in regards to a possible demonstration 15 today. 16 "Military have denied access to the 17 Kettle Point people, they would not 18 approve. The Chief Bressette had been 19 advised by Maguire (phonetic)." 20 I believe that's the captain on the Base 21 at that time. 22 Q: Did you understand what was happening 23 at this point, with respect to the Kettle Point people 24 being denied access to the Army Camp? 25 A: I believe what was happening there

1 was access through the main gates was the issue, if I'm 2 not mistaken. 3 Q: The main gate on Army Camp Road? 4 A: Right, in the built-up area. 5 Q: Yes. Okay. It wasn't along Highway 6 21? 7 A: I don't believe so. 8 Q: Then, there's a note about Brett 9 Hodsdon. 10 A: Yes. 11 "Brett Hodsdon advised that Beacock -- 12 he advised Beacock that Maynard George 13 had met with Les Kobayashi on Friday 14 afternoon. Upset that Howard Hampton 15 had not been available. Thought he was 16 to be at Ipperwash, actually it was the 17 Pinery. Maynard thought he had been 18 misled. Advised that if removed from 19 the Base Ipperwash and Pinery Parks 20 would be occupied." 21 Q: Okay. Then, on June 21st and in the 22 notes that My Friends have page 61 is June 22nd, but if 23 you go to page 62 it's back again to June 21st; it's 24 simply out of order. The -- there's a note at 16:45, you 25 are paged by P.C. Gagne?

1 A: Forest Detachment? 2 Q: Yes. Can you tell us what that note 3 says? 4 A: "Advised that CFB Ipperwash advised 5 Constable Gagne of Kettle Point -- 6 advised the members of Kettle Point 7 that the access through the main gate 8 for the fireworks was prohibited." 9 Q: So, this is with respect to what we 10 were just discussing a minute ago. It clarifies it was 11 through the main gate? 12 A: Correct. 13 Q: And was -- there was going to be a 14 celebration on the Army Camp that -- in June? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: Then if I could go back to June 22nd 17 at the bottom of the page for a moment on page 62, June 18 21st, '93 at 13:50 you spoke to Ron Baldwin at the MNR? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And what was that about? 21 A: We discussed the Blockade Committee 22 and plans in regards to an -- the occupation. And it 23 looks like we were setting up a meeting for Wednesday the 24 23rd of June for 8:30 in the morning. 25 Q: Now, the representative, I believe,

1 of the OPP at the occupation at the Blockade Committee at 2 the time, you weren't -- 3 A: That would have been Inspector Doug 4 Scott, I believe. 5 Q: It was Doug Scott? 6 A: In 1993, yes. 7 Q: And was he the Native Affairs liaison 8 with the blockade committee back then? 9 What I'm trying to get at, is he at the 10 same job as Ron Fox had later on? 11 A: Technically I believe so, yes. But I 12 -- it's my understanding they had a couple of functions 13 there, that being one (1) of them, but they'd also 14 provide advice to the Deputy Minister, I believe. 15 So they -- they worked out the Deputy 16 Minister's office. 17 Q: And did -- back in 1993, did you have 18 any direct conversations or telephone discussions with 19 Inspector Doug Scott? 20 A: No, sir. 21 Q: And with respect -- was this -- prior 22 to 1993, had you been involved with the Blockade 23 Committee with respect to any of the issues that you were 24 involved in? 25 I think you told us that you had not been

1 involved in any blockades or occupations. 2 A: No, I -- I wasn't involved with Doug 3 Scott or the Blockade Committee at all. 4 Q: Okay. And during this period of time 5 in 1993, you had no direct contact with anyone at the -- 6 at the Blockade Committee except for Deputy Super -- 7 Superintendent Wall? 8 A: Yes, and Superintendent Wall worked 9 out of the division office in London -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: And it's important to note that he 12 had been in the First Nations Bureau prior to coming to 13 London. So, he had a significant amount of understanding 14 of how the agreements were constructed and who the 15 various participants would be at the ministry level and - 16 - and with the Federal Government in regards to the 17 various policing agreements. 18 So he was, for the most part during 1993, 19 particularly, or until he retired, was the conduit that I 20 would receive that kind of information. 21 Q: So -- and do you know if he attended 22 -- we know that he attended one (1) inter-ministerial 23 blockade committee in May. 24 Do you know if he regularly attended the 25 meetings?

1 A: I don't believe he was a standing 2 member. 3 Q: And -- but at the time in '93, at 4 least in May and June of '93, you would get any reports 5 through Detective -- Superintendent Wall? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And not directly from Doug Scott? 8 A: Right, I received no information 9 direct from Doug Scott. 10 Q: And if I could take you back to the 11 note at page 62, at 19:30, there's a note, "PC Gagne." 12 Can you tell us -- can you tell us what that's about? 13 You received a telephone call from P.C. 14 Gagne? 15 A: Correct. He -- he called me at my 16 residence indicating of an incident that occurred on the 17 16th of June, that occurred at night in the bush. 18 Military officers were confronted by natives with hunting 19 rifles. 20 Q: And did he tell you when he had 21 learned about this incident or anything else about it? 22 A: I suspect he had just learned about 23 it. 24 Q: And why do you suspect that, sir? 25 A: Because he called me at home, and it

1 would be unusual that he would make an effort to call me 2 at home with some information he had had for a period of 3 time, unless he thought it was important that I be aware 4 of it right away. 5 Q: Okay. Then if I could take you to 6 June 22nd, again, and in our book it's page 61. It's a 7 separate page. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And it may be the back of one of your 10 pages. 11 A: It is, yes. 12 Q: And there's a name, Bill Crate, C-R- 13 A-T-E -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Who was Bill Crate? That's the first 16 time we've heard his name, at least that I can recall. 17 A: Well, he's a superintendent today in 18 media relations. I -- I believe at that time Bill Crate 19 also worked down at the Ministry for a period of time. 20 And he may have had one (1) of the other 21 roles with the Ministry in regards to policing advice. 22 Q: And the Ministry you're referring to 23 is the Ministry of the Solicitor General? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: And one (1) -- at least one (1) of

1 the numbers, the 314 number, I believe was a government 2 number? 3 A: Yes. That looks like the Toronto 4 government directories. 5 Q: And then there's a note, "Racism in 6 Military - media." Firstly, have I read that correctly? 7 A: Yes. I -- I believe that was just 8 some commentary on some media coverage. 9 Q: And then, "court order"? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: What does -- can you -- does this 12 assist you in -- with recalling what the conversation was 13 with Mr. Crate? 14 A: I'm not sure what our discussion was 15 because quite frankly I don't even recall having this 16 discussion with Bill. 17 Q: There's -- at the bottom I think it 18 reads: 19 "D/Commissioner and Commission feel 20 court is the avenue." 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And that's with respect to -- what 23 did you -- what do you understand that to mean today? 24 A: That a court order or a court 25 injunction would be the avenue that we would proceed with

1 or would be expected to proceed with in regards to this 2 type of incident. 3 Q: And there's a reference as well, 4 "request [something] of meeting with 5 Major Howell." 6 A: The status of a meeting with Major 7 Howell. 8 Q: And had the meeting taken place at 9 this point yet? I don't think I missed it. 10 A: No, I think we'll see that on the 11 23rd, I had a meeting with Major Howell. 12 Q: Okay. Thank you. 13 MR. MARK SANDLER: Just going to say if 14 you look at page 62 -- 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: My Friend is saying if 16 I look at page 62 -- 17 MR. MARK SANDLER: The first entry for 18 June 22nd -- be of assistance. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 21 Q: Yes, at -- it's page 62 in the book, 22 June 22nd, '93. Telephone call from Major Bob Howell 23 arrange -- 24 A: That's correct. 25 Q: -- for a meeting 23 June, '93, 15:00

1 hours District Headquarters, London. 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And then there's a note 10:35 with 4 Bill Crate. It's the same -- you have two (2) notes for 5 the same conversation? 6 A: That's right. I'd just jotted some 7 phone numbers and a couple of comments on the opposite 8 page. 9 Q: Then if I could take you to page 64, 10 June 23rd, '93 at 8:30. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And there's a note -- what's this 13 referring to? 14 A: The one with Don Bell? 15 Q: It says -- no, the one below it, sir. 16 A: Okay. 17 Q: June 23rd at 8:30. 18 A: That's a meeting at 8:30 in the 19 morning with Ron Baldwin from the Ministry of Natural 20 Resources and Brett Hodsdon. It was at the District 21 Headquarters in regards to the Ipperwash issue. 22 "MNR is concerned about the Military 23 strategy. They feel the Military will 24 use -- will use unilateral action and 25 cause operational problems for the

1 Ministry of Natural Resources. 2 They feel if the Natives are removed 3 from the Base, the Parks will be 4 targeted. Concern about an occupation 5 in Pinery Provincial Park due to the 6 geography in access. 7 Feel that injunction is the route they 8 should go. Discussed evacuation plan 9 regarding good routes, et cetera. Not 10 prepared to risk campers evacuation 11 will occur. Legal issue of ownership 12 established by the Ministry of Natural 13 Resources, communicated to Kettle Point 14 and Stoney Point via memo. Believe 15 Ministry of Natural Resources would 16 obtain injunction. Minimize media 17 impact. Would prefer sooner than later 18 if action is to be taken, given we're 19 talking of the 23rd of June, and 20 heading into the July 1st summer 21 season." 22 Q: And so, the Ministry of Natural 23 Resources were concerned that the Military might do 24 something unilaterally, and create problems with both of 25 the parks?

1 A: Correct. 2 Q: And the Ministry of Natural Resources 3 shared the Ontario Provincial Police's view, I take it, 4 in June of 1993, that a -- an injunction should be 5 obtained by the Military with respect to the Park -- with 6 respect to the Army Camp? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: Then at page 67 of Exhibit 397, 9 there's a note on June 23, 1995 at 15:00, and I take it 10 this is the meeting with the Military? 11 A: Yes, that's with Major Bob Howell, 12 and another member he brought with him by the name of 13 Motyl, �O-T-Y-L. 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: We discussed the issues, the OPP's 16 position was that we would respond to any criminal act, 17 or as directed in a Court Order. Military were not in 18 favour of a Court Order. 19 They were concerned in regards to the 20 incident related earlier, regarding the rifle, and that 21 was still being investigated. 22 I pointed out the issue, you know, could 23 move to the Ipperwash Park on Highway 21 or forcibly 24 ejected. 25 Discussions required between the Natives

1 and the Military -- 2 Q: Was that your position? 3 A: Yes. Howell advises they cannot 4 discuss anything because the group is not recognized. 5 Q: So the Military took the position; 6 because the occupiers were not officially recognized, 7 they wouldn't talk to them? 8 A: Correct. Their -- their view was, 9 the only individuals that had the right of negotiation, 10 in regards to the return of the Military Base, was with 11 the Kettle Point Band Council. 12 Q: Okay, and if you could go on, please; 13 pointed out? 14 A: Yes, I'm just trying to get the 15 context here. 16 "...pointed out that it may be 17 necessary, prior to any Court Order or 18 other actions. He will convey the 19 message to his Superiors. Discussed 20 operational plans in the event of an 21 eviction. Timing is critical. 22 Security of the area is critical due to 23 possible -- possible warrior support. 24 Possibly a seventy-two (72) hour 25 waiting period. Decision to be made on

1 the 23 of June, in regards to the cadet 2 program..." 3 Q: And what's that refer to? 4 A: Well, every summer they had -- the 5 Base was literally filled with cadet training through the 6 summer months, so they would be arriving soon. 7 Q: And so that -- the decision was going 8 to be made whether they were going to have the program or 9 not? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: As a matter of fact, they did have 12 the program that summer? 13 A: That summer and in 1994. 14 Q: And then it goes on? 15 A: "...pointed out that the Court Order 16 required for the -- pointed out that a 17 Court Order was required for support in 18 law..." 19 Q: And what's that refer to? 20 A: Well, that -- that's pointing out to 21 them that as -- as a police agency, we expected a Court 22 Order to agree or, I -- direct that upon recognition of 23 ownership of the property, what police action should or 24 should not be. 25 Q: So, your concern, the OPP's concern

1 was you wanted a Court to determine the issue of 2 ownership before the OPP did anything? 3 A: Correct. As -- as the landowners, 4 they were expected to demonstrate to the Court that it 5 was their -- that they rightfully owned it, and that -- 6 the steps to be taken to address the occupation. 7 Q: Okay. Then if you could go on? 8 A: Also, internal security of Base would 9 be a Military responsibility. Major Howell would advise, 10 on the 24th of June, of the information to his superiors. 11 Q: And then there's a note in the 12 margin, at least on our -- the photocopy of page 67. 13 A: Yes. 14 "We must be named in the injunction. 15 The Sheriff may be responsible for 16 service." 17 Q: And, what your -- and what does that 18 refer to? 19 A: Well, we would expect that if the 20 Military went forward with an application that there 21 would be some commentary in regards to what was expected 22 of the OPP. 23 Q: Then, on the next page, June 23rd at 24 16:05, I take it this meeting with the Military lasted 25 just under an hour?

1 A: It appears so, yes. 2 Q: Because your entry -- as you had a -- 3 you called Chief Superintendent Coles? 4 Q: Yes, I called him at 16:05, 4:05 in 5 the afternoon, updating him on the issues to-date, the 6 meeting with the Ministry of Natural Resources Mayor -- 7 Major Howell meeting and the gun incident. 8 "Advised him that I felt the Military 9 will not get an injunction. MNR is 10 prepared to get an injunction now, 11 legal issues are prepared. I discussed 12 the lack of discussion between the 13 Military and the Natives. 14 Chief Superintendent suggested I 15 contact Maynard George in an effort to 16 dispel the rumours, tell them -- tell 17 him that he'll be warned in regards to 18 an injunction. We are -- we are 19 peacekeepers, Military will seek the 20 injunction." 21 Q: So, his -- the Chief Superintendent's 22 advice was to try to pass on information to Maynard 23 George that it would be the Military that would be 24 seeking the injunction, not the Ontario Provincial 25 Police?

1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And, the decision with respect to the 3 injunction, I take it, would be that of the Military, not 4 the Ontario Provincial Police? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: Then, later that day on page 69 of 7 Exhibit 397, you had a -- there's a note with respect to 8 Acting Staff Sergeant Beacock? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: It's 19:00 hours? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And can you tell us about that note? 13 A: "I was accompanied by Acting Staff 14 Sergeant Beacock and we patrolled the 15 Ipperwash Base area. Observed about 16 thirty (30) Natives on the range area 17 near the pistol range. Walls of a 18 building were being erected. Drove up 19 to the area of construction, there was 20 Native music being played from a 21 pickup." 22 Q: Now, did you drive into the Army Camp 23 or just along the fence? 24 A: I believe we drove in. 25 Q: Okay. And, that building is a

1 building that's still there, I think it was called the 2 Argument Hall or -- do you know what -- 3 A: The -- the meeting hall, yes. 4 Q: The meeting hall? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And were you in that building at any 7 time afterwards? 8 A: I was never in it. 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: "I drove up to the area of the 11 construction. Maynard George 12 approached us, had a discussion in the 13 cruiser. Asked Maynard in regards to 14 calls on Saturday about raid." 15 Q: Do you know what that's referring to? 16 A: I'm not sure. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: "Information had been received from 19 Thedford trying to dispel rumours. 20 Told him -- told -- told him to call if 21 he had a concern. We would keep the 22 peace; we would investigate any 23 criminal acts. 24 The problem was with the Military, not 25 the police and asked him how he

1 intended to resolve it and Maynard 2 advised that he was involved with the 3 Geneva Convention, Military is 4 trespassing [and something to do with 5 court in July]. Also Ipperwash Park 6 was moved [I'm not sure what the next 7 word is] to Native land. 8 Q: On to Native land? 9 A: That could be. 10 "Cleared -- clear that Maynard has no 11 intention to compromise in any way." 12 Q: Okay, and later that night you had a 13 discussion with -- there's a note, Carl Walsh? 14 A: Yes, he's one of the Military Police 15 special investigators, and just discussed the 16 construction of the building. And that information, 17 Military information, would be forwarded to Ottawa by 18 Walsh. 19 And there was a concern regarding the flow 20 of information -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- I'm not sure what the concern was. 23 Q: Okay. Then on the next page, page 24 70, June 24th, '93, you had a telephone call -- number of 25 telephone calls, one (1) at 7:20 with Ron Baldwin --

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you simply, I take it... 3 A: It was just an update on the meeting 4 I had with Major Howell, the construction that was going 5 on, Military concern. Continued, basically, a wait-and- 6 see approach. 7 Q: And that was -- the OPP was 8 continuing a wait-and-see approach? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And there's a note, "escalate the 11 issue", did either you or he feel that the construction 12 might escalate the issue? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: It certainly concerned -- the 16 Military was getting more nervous as more activity was 17 taking place. 18 Q: Okay. Then at 10:15, Chief 19 Superintendent office. Was that a meeting with Chief 20 Superintendent Coles? 21 A: Correct, I believe I attended his 22 office. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: I discussed the meeting with Maynard 25 George.

1 "We discussed the approach regarding 2 court order. Chief Superintendent 3 agrees with the approach to date. 4 Discussed problems regarding 5 intelligence branch. Discussing issues 6 with local Detachment. Chief 7 Superintendent contacted intelligence 8 at general headquarters, Inspector 9 Lawrenson (phonetic). Reinforced the 10 chain of events and information to 11 myself or Staff Sergeant Beacock or 12 Sergeant Bell. 13 I will continue to act as the Incident 14 Commander." 15 Q: And what were the problems with -- in 16 -- regarding intelligence branch? 17 A: I believe there had been a phone call 18 to Forest Detachment where one of the constables had 19 answered the phone and one of the intelligence officers 20 were providing intelligence information directly to the 21 constables as opposed to delivering it to myself or the 22 Detachment Commander. 23 Q: So it was the flow of information was 24 going directly to the line officers as opposed to the 25 persons responsible for --

1 A: Right. 2 Q: -- getting the information? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: Okay. And then at 13:30 you had a 5 telephone call with Superintendent Randall, and he was at 6 Chatham, I think, Superintendent Randall? 7 A: That's correct, he was the -- 8 Q: Yeah. 9 A: -- commander at Chatham district 10 headquarters and basically it's another update around the 11 various meetings. 12 Q: Okay. Then at the top of the next 13 page, page 71, June 24th, '93 at 16:05 you had a 14 telephone call with Major Bob Howell? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And can you tell us what... 17 A: Yes, I'm just checking my note here. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Yeah, he indicated that: 22 "The Military has, verbally and in 23 writing, communicated the position -- 24 their position regarding the occupation 25 to Stoney Point. Their legal

1 department was not keen on an 2 injunction. They would consider DCARS 3 [the defence controlled access 4 regulations]. 5 Also, Section 41 of the Criminal Code 6 re: defence of real property. Also 7 sending a three (3) man reconnaissance 8 team. Cadets still coming at this 9 time. Recon. members to [I believe 10 it's] travel to base with me in the 11 a.m." 12 Q: And that's with him? With Major Bob 13 Howell? 14 A: I believe so, yes. 15 "Advises no construction activity this 16 date. Twelve (12) Military Police 17 officers will arrive tomorrow. Orders 18 are to police the camp and not to be 19 confrontational." 20 Q: Okay. Yes? 21 A: "Updated him re: my meeting with 22 Maynard. Two (2) was communication was 23 very productive. Discussed the concern 24 re: Carl Walsh. Not sure his approach is 25 productive on a local basis. Major will

1 address." 2 Q: And the last line? 3 A: I got: 4 "May he ask to remove trespassers 5 sensitive." 6 Q: And what does that refer to? 7 A: I'm not -- I'm not quite sure quite 8 frankly. 9 Q: And: 10 "Discussed concern re Carl Walsh, not 11 sure his approach is productive." 12 And what were you referring to there? 13 A: There was an issue with Carl Walsh 14 but I forget exactly if it was chain of command of 15 reporting information or exactly what it was. 16 Q: Okay. Then if I could take you to 17 page 73 of Exhibit 397 and once again if there's 18 something that I've skipped over that you would like to 19 point out, Deputy Commissioner, please do so. 20 At page 73 it appears to be a back of a 21 note. 22 A: Right it's the back page of my other 23 writings. 24 Q: And do you know which date this is? 25 A: Well, the facing page is Friday the

1 25th of June so I presume it's that day that I had 2 scribbled that in. 3 Q: And what is this referring to. Fred 4 Thomas, he was the Mayor of the Township of Bosanquet? 5 Is that correct? 6 A: Yes. It's -- it's just a series of 7 telephone numbers for Fred Thomas, for Mayor Minielly 8 from Forest, Ministry of Natural Resources -- 9 Q: And Chief Tom Bressette? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: It says, he will call back. His 13 phone number and the phone number of legal services. 14 Q: And then, "K.P. Norm -- 15 A: Shaunell. 16 Q: And what's that refer to? 17 A: I'm not sure what that was about. 18 Q: Then on Friday, later that day on 19 Friday, June 25th, you had another discussion at 10:25 or 20 did you have a meeting with Major Howell? 21 A: Yes. He notified me that he would be 22 flying into London with an action response unit, arriving 23 around 12:30 to discuss operational plans. 24 Q: And what was your understanding of an 25 action response unit?

1 A: I had no idea what they were. I -- I 2 would -- I was about to learn shortly thereafter. 3 Q: Okay. Then you also note that you 4 had a telephone discussion at 11:30 with Chief Tom 5 Bressette and can you tell us about that meeting? That 6 tele -- was it a meeting or a telephone call? 7 A: I must have gone up to Kettle Point. 8 No, I couldn't have. It must -- it must have been a 9 phone call because at 10:30 I had been on the phone with 10 Superintendent Wall so it must have been a phone call. 11 But if I could just point out in the -- in 12 the 10:30 phone call with Superintendent Wall, I had 13 requested he attend the 12:30 meeting with the Military 14 with me. 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: And we were concerned about the legal 17 position the Military might take and with his experience 18 I was looking for some -- some assistance. And he had 19 the experience in regards to blockades. 20 Q: The line says, 21 "Also his experience [something]". 22 A: "Also his experience important re: 23 Native blockades." 24 Q: Okay, thank you. 25 A: So, it looks like I spoke with Tom

1 Bressette: 2 "Discussed the ongoing issue. A 3 meeting Monday at nine o'clock. Tom 4 will be attending the meeting in 5 Toronto or he will assign somebody." 6 And that may have been my note in regards 7 to Norm Shawnoo. 8 Q: Oh, I see. 9 A: Regarding Norm. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: "Maynard has launched an alarm a 14 couple of times requesting assistance." 15 Q: What's that refer to? 16 A: Well, I believe I'm soliciting Chief 17 Bressette's assistance in trying to keep this dialogue 18 moving. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: "Maynard is contact warrior society 21 et cetera. Tom disagrees with the 22 approach. Meeting next week regarding 23 the framework for negotiations." 24 Q: Meeting with the Federal Government? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Yes. 2 A: "Feels they will only be carried out, 3 no other way." 4 And I note here Norm Shaunell, so he must 5 have assigned Norm Shaunell to come to this meeting. 6 There was concern re: the police/native 7 relationships. I'm not sure if that's my concern or if 8 it's Tom's concern. 9 And there was a belief that the occupiers 10 would squat on farmers' land if they were evicted. 11 Q: Okay. And if I could take you back 12 to the note with this -- Chief Superintendent -- with 13 Superintendent Wall. The latter part of that note 14 indicates that he was going to request a lawyer at the 15 legal branch for a legal opinion regarding Section 41 and 16 the DCARS? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: So -- 19 A: And we're looking for a -- a quick 20 around by noon if possible, so we could be armed with 21 that information for the Military meeting. 22 Q: So the OPP wanted to find out if the 23 Military was right with respect to what they were saying 24 about -- 25 A: Correct.

1 Q: -- the Criminal Code and DCARS? 2 A: Yes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 4 would this be a good point to take a morning break? 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're going 7 to just -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's fine, thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 10 morning break. 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 12 for fifteen (15) minutes. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 11:19 a.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 11:40 a.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed. Please be seated. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: Deputy Commissioner, before we go on, 22 I would like you to go back to a couple of entries that I 23 should have -- that I didn't take you to. 24 The first is on page 70, it's June 24th, 25 1993 at, I believe it's 13:15 hours. It's a telephone

1 call with Inspector Bill Crate. 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: Is it a telephone call or a meeting 4 or -- 5 A: It -- it would be a telephone call. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I called to him to discuss the 8 overnight issues and that at 13:30 on the 25th there was 9 going to be a meeting of the blockade committee. He was 10 also requesting daily updates by fax to assist the 11 blockade committee meetings. 12 I would advise him of Military calls, 13 particularly regarding whether the cadets were coming or 14 not. 15 Q: So he wanted you to send daily 16 updates by fax and what was your understanding as to what 17 was going to happen with those updates? 18 A: Well, he would take that information 19 and use it to deal with the issues in regards to the 20 blockade committee decisions. 21 Q: So you were providing him information 22 and he would provide information to those who were 23 attending that blockade committee. Is that your 24 understanding? 25 A: Right. The relevant information,

1 yes. 2 Q: And was he attending the blockade 3 committees, Mr. -- 4 A: I believe so. 5 Q: Then we spoke just before the break 6 about the defence regulations and your meeting with -- 7 with Major Bob Howell. I would like to take you to page 8 72 and it's Friday, June 25th. 9 You had a meeting or a discussion with -- 10 you had a telephone call firstly with Bill Crate about 11 your meeting with Major Howell, then there's a reference 12 there: 13 "Discussed call from Major Howell. 14 Cadets still coming to Ipperwash -- 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: -- then C.C. or fed regs - a concern, 17 urge court injunction." What's that 18 refer to, sir? 19 A: That's the information I'm providing 20 to him that the issue with regards to the Criminal Code 21 sections or federal regulations that might be applied was 22 a concern and that our position was to urge a court 23 injunction. 24 Q: And then at 8:10, was this a meeting 25 with Chief Superintendent Coles?

1 A: No. I believe it was a phone call. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Where again, we discussed the Section 4 41 of the Criminal Code and the defence access 5 regulations. 6 "Not comfortable with the sections in 7 the Criminal Code or the defence 8 regulations." 9 That again, the preference is a court 10 order and Chief Superintendent Coles, he had some reason 11 to believe that the cadets might not be coming. 12 And I asked for legal opinions in regards 13 to Section 41 of the Criminal Code and he suggested 14 Superintendent Wall was going to follow that up. 15 Q: And who wasn't comfortable with the 16 Sections and who wanted the court order. You referred to 17 court order, was it you or he or both? 18 A: I would suggest it was a combination 19 of both. 20 Q: So, the OPP were very concerned about 21 Section 41 and the use of the defence regulations -- 22 access regulations? 23 A: Correct. 24 Q: Then if I could take you to page 75 25 it's June 25th at the top of the page, Brett Hodsdon --

1 Brett Hodsdon, excuse me. 2 A: Yes, it talks about: 3 "Maynard arrived at the Ipperwash 4 Provincial Park with three (3) people 5 in suits, checked the area regarding 6 the beach and buildings, etcetera. 7 Talked about the terms of a court 8 injunction." 9 Potentially, some of the conditions might 10 be, such as not trespass within a half a mile of -- of 11 the Military Base, which in fact, would cover the 12 geography of the Provincial Park as well. And there had 13 been a native person in the park on a dirt bike, who had 14 been issued a ticket. 15 Q: And was -- with respect to the Park, 16 was it a concern that the injunction might cover the 17 Park, the Provincial Park? 18 A: The -- the concern was that the 19 attention would be turned to the Park next. And I 20 believe the discussion was well, if the conditions such 21 as not return within a half a mile of the Military Base 22 that, in fact, Ipperwash Park would also be covered in 23 that geography. So it really would not be an issue. 24 Q: Oh, I see. Okay. Then, later that 25 day, at the page 78, there's a note June 25th, '93 at

1 14:30, Major Bob Howell, Colonel Miller, I take it, 2 and... 3 A: Wylie? 4 Q: Wylie? 5 A: Right. 6 Q: Well, it's -- then -- they were -- 7 was this a meeting? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And where was the meeting, sir? 10 A: It was in the board room of District 11 Headquarters at London. 12 Q: And then, there -- it -- after Wylie 13 there's -- it says, "MP built-up area?" 14 A: Right. 15 Q: What's that refer to? Was that 16 another person attending the meeting? 17 A: I'm -- I'm not sure if it was a -- a 18 Military Police officer from -- from Ipperwash or not. 19 Q: And then, from the OPP side... 20 A: It had Detective Superintendent Tom 21 Wall, Bernay -- Bernie Derubie, who's a regional officer, 22 Major Peter Atkinson, Lieutenant Colonel Matt MacDonald, 23 who was the Commanding Officer. 24 Q: So -- 25 A: Derubie, Atkinson, and MacDonald are

1 all Military personnel. 2 Q: So that there were six (6) Military 3 people or seven (7) Military people, and Superintendent 4 Tom Wall, and yourself? 5 A: Correct. 6 Q: Yes. And tell us about this meeting? 7 A: "We discussed the operational plan 8 regarding Ipperwash, reiterated the 9 problem with any approach other than an 10 injunction. Military prefers other 11 than an injunction. The position -- 12 our position was reaffirmed by 13 Superintendent Wall. Criminal matters 14 will be dealt with, the injunction will 15 require action and give direction. 16 Discussed the Military Police present - 17 - presence. Limited reference. No 18 contact with." 19 Q: Do you know what that's referring to? 20 A: I'm not sure. I -- I think there was 21 -- there was some discussion, perhaps at this meeting, in 22 regards to the range of duties that the Military Police 23 would -- would in fact engage in. So, there was -- there 24 was some stress with the Military personnel, the Military 25 Police personnel, as to what they could or couldn't do in

1 regards to taking action against occupiers. 2 Q: And we've seen in the operational 3 plan that was marked Exhibit 400 and we discussed 4 yesterday that the OPP would look after serious crimes, 5 and is that what was being referred to at this -- in this 6 meeting? 7 A: No, sir, what we saw yesterday was 8 our -- our policy that is in police orders, that is, 9 general policy across the organization. What we are 10 trying to reaffirm here that any criminal offence, 11 involving the occupiers, where we have reasonable or 12 probable grounds we would investigate and if appropriate, 13 lay the appropriate charges. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: So, we just wanted to reiterate one 16 (1) more time that we were prepared to take action where 17 we had the authority to do so. 18 We were certainly feeling that the 19 Military felt we were shirking our responsibility in not 20 taking action, particularly in regards to what they saw 21 as the trespassing on the base. 22 Q: So that your position -- the OPP's 23 position was they needed to get an injunction, which 24 would direct the OPP to do something. The Military 25 didn't want to get an injunction, they wanted something

1 done without an injunction? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And was that how it was left at the 4 end of that meeting? 5 A: Yes. The staff -- the Military 6 personnel under MacDonald's command were en route to CFB 7 Ipperwash to assess the situation from their perspective. 8 Q: And Colonel -- Mr. MacDonald -- 9 Lieutenant Colonel MacDonald, was he from London? 10 A: He was from Camp Petawawa. 11 Q: Oh, Camp Petawawa? 12 A: Yes. He was commander, I believe, of 13 the Royal Dragoons at that time. 14 Q: Okay. Then at page 79, there's a 15 entry, "16:30 MNR Ron Baldwin." 16 A: Yes, he advises of blockade committee 17 call and that he indicated the Deputy Minister was to 18 urge an injunction with the Federal Deputy Minister. 19 Q: And do you which Deputy Minister was 20 going to urge an injunction with the Federal Deputy 21 Minister? 22 A: No, sir, I'm not sure who was who at 23 that time. 24 Q: And then there's a note that I think 25 answers that question. At five o'clock you had a

1 telephone conversation with Inspector Crate? 2 A: Correct. 3 "Updated re: the meeting. Deputy 4 Commissioner Naigle to call John Tuff 5 Deputy Minister of Justice Federal. 6 Requesting injunction approach." 7 Perhaps it's Taft, "to request same 8 through Deputy Minister, Department of 9 National Defence." 10 Q: And so this request that this matter 11 be dealt with by a Court Order, as opposed to any other 12 form of action, was moving up the chain of command in the 13 Ontario Provincial Police? 14 A: I'm sorry? 15 Q: It was -- there -- the issue of 16 getting a Court Order as opposed to -- as the -- the 17 issue from the OPP's perspective that it wanted the 18 Military to get a Court Order with respect to the 19 ownership, was moving up the chain of command in the OPP? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And Deputy Commissioner Naigle, he 22 was one (1) of two (2) deputy commissioners at the time? 23 A: Yeah, it was -- Deputy Naigle was a 24 she. 25 Q: Oh, she, excuse me.

1 A: She, yes. 2 Q: And so she was going to call the 3 Deputy Minister of Justice and the Federal Deputy 4 Minister of Justice and request that they seek an 5 injunction? 6 A: Correct. 7 Q: And she was going to -- did you 8 understand she was going to ask the Deputy Minister of 9 Justice to also request the same through the Deputy 10 Minister of Defence? 11 A: Correct. 12 Q: Okay. Then on June the 26th, you had 13 another meeting with Lieutenant Colonel MacDonald at, I 14 think it's 16:00 hours? 15 A: 13:00. 16 Q: 13:00? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Actually before that, in the morning 19 on September 26th, you had -- June 26th, excuse me. 20 A: June, yes. 21 Q: It's Saturday, June 26th. 22 MR. MARK SANDLER: Just wishful thinking, 23 Mr. Millar. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps. 25

1 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: The -- you had a -- I take it from 3 this note you were at the Forest Detachment, you met with 4 Acting Sergeant Silverman and you also -- the note 5 indicates you met with Captain Prentice and Sergeant... 6 A: Doug McGuire. 7 Q: Doug McGuire. 8 A: I actually attended the Base. 9 Q: Can you just tell us a little bit 10 about this? 11 A: Yes, we -- I was at the base, talking 12 to Captain Prentice and Sergeant McGuire, who's a 13 Military Police officer, discussing the criminal offences 14 situation, and again reiterating the OPP will deal with 15 criminal occurrences, that we will arrest, that the 16 Military Police should detain any activity, any criminal 17 activity they encounter, and that we would follow it up 18 by returning the individuals to Forest and processing the 19 -- the whatever the arrest was about. 20 Q: With respect to criminal activity? 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And who was Captain Prentice? 23 A: Captain Prentice, I believe, was a 24 temporary base commander. He had -- was on a -- a short 25 term assignment there.

1 Q: Okay. Then at 13:00 you met with 2 Lieutenant Colonel MacDonald? 3 A: Correct. 4 Q: And where was that? 5 A: That was at the Apple Tree Inn in 6 Arcona. 7 Q: Okay. And tell us about that 8 meeting. 9 A: We discussed the operations plan, 10 concern about security of the water plant, the criminal 11 offences, the issues of photo identification, gate 12 security, the property after the fact. 13 Q: What's that refer to? 14 A: Well, once the Military, if they take 15 action, what -- what happens to the property after the 16 fact if there's subsequent issues that arise from that. 17 "I will meet with Maynard. Yellow tape 18 on the road to base camp." 19 There was an issue there in regards to 20 where the occupiers could travel, I believe between the 21 firing ranges and the built-up area; so there was some 22 discussion about putting yellow tape across the -- the 23 lane or the drive -- driveway. 24 Q: The road that's parallel to Highway 25 21?

1 A: Correct. 2 Q: On the inside of the Park? 3 A: So it was an indicator of -- 4 Q: drawing a line. 5 "Concern about firearms and pickups. 6 Consider Wes Cam Video through the 7 RCMP. 8 The Colonel will call me back tomorrow 9 and that he informed me he would be in 10 London overnight." 11 Q: Okay. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now, can you tell us what a Wes Cam 16 is? 17 A: A Wes Cam? 18 Q: Wes Cam, yes. 19 A: A Wes Cam is a high powered camera 20 that is normally operated from aircraft. In this 21 particular case the RCMP had that tool available to them 22 on one of their helicopters. 23 And that particular kind of a unit can 24 operate at extended or considerable heights, with very 25 significant clarity. So for instance, the exact

1 distances -- I may not be accurate, but I believe you 2 could stand off at say 5000 feet and still have a pretty 3 fair picture of activity at ground level. 4 Q: So that -- and the OPP at that -- in 5 1993, did not have that ability? 6 A: We did not. 7 Q: And whose suggestion was this that 8 you consider the Wes Cam? Was that -- 9 A: I'm not sure which one it was. But 10 it would -- it would certainly be in this type of 11 discussion. Something that would be -- if there was 12 going to be any action taken just from a -- an 13 operational preparedness point of view, you would look to 14 have that kind of a tool available to you. 15 So it -- it would be pretty normal that 16 either, or both of us, would have either thought about 17 that or looked for that kind of support. 18 Q: Okay. And at the top of the next 19 page on June 26, 1993, at 18:50 you had a telephone call 20 with a Major Carr? 21 A: That's right, Simon Carr requesting a 22 meeting with the Colonel Sunday morning at nine o'clock 23 at the District Headquarters. 24 Q: And that's again, Colonel McDonald? 25 A: Correct.

1 Q: And at page 82 you -- there's a note 2 at 15:15, can you tell us about that? 3 A: "I went to the Ipperwash Base, unable 4 to locate Maynard George. He might be 5 at his residence. I was accompanied by 6 Acting Sergeant Silverman. I attended 7 the residence of Maynard George on the 8 14th concession. 9 Maynard came out -- came out from the 10 rear of the residence. We discussed 11 the safety issues as a concern of the 12 municipalities. Discussed the issues 13 of guns and pickup trucks, to which he 14 denied any knowledge. 15 Assures that he will encourage members 16 to not display any weapons. 17 To alleviate any doubt I asked him to 18 supply a membership list allowing me to 19 differentiate from Stoney Point or 20 other people. Advised he would do 21 that. 22 Maynard spoke about cooperation; 23 advised that yellow tape allows Militia 24 to use the built-up area and the 25 munitions depot. Advises his people

1 agree to honour this line that's in 2 place and that he will be going to 3 Ottawa, expects announcement on Monday 4 that will turn over the Base to Stoney 5 Point. 6 Indicated that he spoke to Prime 7 Minister Kim Campbell last week. Also, 8 he's meeting with provincial officials 9 re: the sovereignty of the land from 10 Bosanquet to [I'm sorry] from 11 Ravenswood to Goderich. Ipperwash Park 12 belongs to Stoney Point they will not 13 disrupt the Park, but will -- will 14 rename it Stoney Point Memorial in 15 honour of the veterans." 16 Q: And, that had been one (1) of the 17 requests that veterans be honoured at the -- earlier by 18 Maynard George and Carl George, is that not correct? 19 A: I believe that's the reference. 20 Q: Okay. Then, on June 27th, 1993, you 21 -- there's a reference at 08:00 to Captain Prentice. Can 22 you tell us about this -- the note at the top of the 23 page? 24 A: Correct. I was at the Forest 25 Detachment.

1 "Special Investigative Officer Lloyd 2 Stone came to the Detachment, advised 3 that a tractor had travelled [perhaps 4 that's through the road]..." 5 Q: Through the road and spots. 6 A: "...and spots the field area." 7 I'm not sure exactly what he's referring 8 to there. 9 "Captus -- Captain Prentice patrolling, 10 removes yellow tape to gain access. 11 Advised Stone this causes me concern 12 re: potential confrontation. Will 13 discuss with Colonel MacDonald." 14 Q: So, you -- you're -- you had a 15 concern about Captain Prentice going on the other side of 16 the yellow tape? 17 A: Yes, I -- I was of the impression we 18 had some understanding that the yellow tape was basically 19 allowing everybody their space, so to speak, and I 20 certainly felt that removal of the tape was antagonistic 21 in nature. 22 Q: So that was antagonistic in nature by 23 the Army? 24 A: Correct. 25 Q: And then, at 8:30 you had a cell

1 phone call with Lieutenant Colonel MacDonald? 2 A: That's right, I did, where I did 3 express my concerns. He was already aware of the issue. 4 "He feels the Base Commander will be 5 alone when he has access, that he felt 6 it was necessary for him to be able to 7 travel through that area. I suggested 8 it may provoke an issue, will be 9 discussed this afternoon in Toronto." 10 And then it's -- I believe that's 11 MacDonald -- Macdonald going to discuss it in Toronto. 12 "Updated him on the meeting I had had 13 with Maynard George and potentially the 14 yellow tape issue. Maynard advises he 15 will recognize the boundary." 16 So, I'm just trying to reaffirm with him 17 what had been established in that meeting and the -- that 18 I had discussed the weapons issue with Maynard and that 19 he was prepared to supply a list of the names of the 20 Occupiers. 21 Q: Okay. And then, on page 84 there's a 22 note, which must be on the back of one (1) of your pages? 23 A: It is. 24 Q: That refers to: 25 "Keele and Sheppard, Major General

1 Vernon, Cadets re: weapons, Monty 2 Casino, Keele near Sheppard." 3 What's that referring to, sir? 4 A: That's referring to a meeting that's 5 being set up in Toronto at CFB Toronto and Monty Casino 6 is a motel close to the Military Base where I would be 7 spending the evening. 8 Q: All right. Is that at CFB Downsview? 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: And then, you also received a call -- 11 did you get this information as part of this call from 12 Lieutenant Colonel Ray Rom -- is it Romses on June 27th, 13 at nine o'clock? 14 A: No, actually that occurred at -- a 15 little later down the page at 14:30 hours -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- when I was paged by Colonel 18 MacDonald. I was being requested by Major General Brian 19 Vernon to attend their meeting at CFB Downsview at 8:30 20 the following morning. 21 Q: Okay. And there's a note, "concerned 22 about the safety of cadets concerning -- considering 23 weapons issue. Expressed the -- " 24 Did he express a concern about that? Was 25 that an issue raised -- that's in your note with -- at

1 14:30. 2 A: I believe those would be my concerns. 3 Q: Okay. Then the reference to 4 Lieutenant Colonel Roy Romses at the top of the page? 5 A: Correct. 6 "We discussed intelligence issues..." 7 Q: Was Major Simia Carr part of this -- 8 A: That's Simon Carr. 9 Q: Yes. Was he part of this 10 conversation? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I'm not sure where this meeting or -- 15 it must have been a meeting at the Military Base on 16 Sunday morning, because both Major Carr and Colonel 17 Romses were -- was involved. 18 But I don't remember Romses being in the 19 area, so I'm not sure if it's a phone call or a face to 20 face. 21 Q: Okay. Now there's an entry, 22 "Discussed intelligence issues"? 23 A: That's right. 24