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1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 March 30th, 2005 25
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1 Appearances 2 Derry Millar ) Commission Counsel 3 Susan Vella ) 4 Donald Worme, Q. C ) 5 Katherine Hensel ) 6 Jodi-Lynn Waddilove ) 7 8 Murray Klippenstein ) The Estate of Dudley 9 Vilko Zbogar ) (np) George and George 10 Andrew Orkin ) Family Group 11 Basil Alexander ) Student-at-Law 12 13 Peter Rosenthal ) Aazhoodena and George 14 Jackie Esmonde ) Family Group 15 16 Anthony Ross ) Residents of 17 Kevin Scullion ) Aazhoodena (Army Camp) 18 William Henderson ) Kettle Point & Stony 19 Jonathon George ) (np) Point First Nation 20 21 Kim Twohig ) (np) Government of Ontario 22 Walter Myrka ) 23 Sue Freeborn ) (np) 24 Lynette D'Souza ) (np) 25
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1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Janet Clermont ) Municipality of 3 David Nash ) (np) Lambton Shores 4 5 Peter Downard ) The Honourable Michael 6 Bill Hourigan ) (np) Harris 7 Jennifer McAleer ) 8 9 Ian R. Smith ) Robert Runciman 10 Alice Mrozek ) 11 Harvey Stosberg ) (np) Charles Harnick 12 Jacqueline Horvat ) (np) 13 Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) Marcel Beaubien 14 Trevor Hinnegan ) (np) 15 16 Mark Sandler ) (np) Ontario Provincial 17 Andrea Tuck-Jackson ) Ontario Provincial Police 18 Leslie Kaufman ) (np) 19 20 Ian Roland ) (np) Ontario Provincial 21 Karen Jones ) Police Association & 22 Debra Newell ) (np) K. Deane 23 Ian McGilp ) (np) 24 Annie Leeks ) (np) 25
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1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Julian Falconer ) (np) Aboriginal Legal 4 Brian Eyolfson ) Services of Toronto 5 Julian Roy ) (np) 6 Clem Nabigon ) (np) 7 Adriel Weaver ) (np) Student-at-Law 8 9 Al J.C. O'Marra ) Office of the Chief 10 Robert Ash, Q.C. ) (np) Coroner 11 12 William Horton ) Chiefs of Ontario 13 Matthew Horner ) 14 Kathleen Lickers ) (Np) 15 16 Mark Frederick ) (np) Christopher Hodgson 17 Craig Mills ) (np) 18 Megan Mackey ) 19 20 David Roebuck ) (np) Debbie Hutton 21 Anna Perschy ) (np) 22 Melissa Panjer ) (np) 23 Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) 24 25
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1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 JOAN CATHERINE GOLDI, Sworn 6 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 10 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 63 8 9 JOHN WERNER GOLDI, Affirmed 10 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 69 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 93 12 13 GORDON BURTON PETERS, Sworn 14 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 105 15 16 Certificate of Transcript 231 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-286 E-mail from Commission to Mr. And Mrs. 4 J. Goldi and Goldi Productions, March 5 24/05. 36 6 P-287 Videotape of Robert Isaac interview with 7 Mr. And Mrs. Goldi, Goldi Productions 8 Limited. 37 9 P-288 Letter addressed to Susan Vella, 10 February 22/05 from J. Goldi, Goldi 11 Productions, Re: Possible Liability 12 resulting in release of tapes. 48 13 P-289 E-mail to J. Goldi, November 19/04 14 from Commission Re: Robert Isaac and other 15 related tapes. 50 16 P-290 Initial request made to John and Joan 17 Goldi, July 21/04 from Commission for 18 Robert Isaac and related tapes in their 19 possession 54 20 P-291 Document Number 9000020, July 14/93 fax 21 from Mr. Ernie Hobbs, E.E. Hobbs and 22 Associates Limited to Mr. E. Anthony Ross 23 Re: "Chippewa Draft Agreement" July 13/93 131 24 25
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1 EXHIBITS (cont.) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-292 Document Number 9000030, Letter from 4 Ronald C. George Law Office to Chiefs of 5 Ontario, Attention: Gord Peters, July 27/93, 6 Re: Agreement on working relationships, 7 Kettle Point/Stoney Point. 133 8 P-293 Document Number 1009973, Letter to 9 Premier Mike Harris from Chiefs of 10 Ontario, September 7/95 Re: Ipperwash 11 Provincial Park. 151 12 P-294 Document Number 14000060, Letter to 13 Chief Gordon Peters from Premier Mike 14 Harris, Re: Ipperwash Provincial Park. 154 15 P-295 Document Number 1011862, September 7/05 16 letter to all First Nations in Ontario 17 from Gordon Peters, Ontario Regional 18 Chief 157 19 P-296 Document Number 1006430, September 20 7/95, Chiefs of Ontario News Release 21 "Chiefs of Ontario Condemn Killings at 22 Ipperwash Park." 159 23 P-297 Document Number 1006430, September 24 8/95 Multi-fax from Gordon B. Peters, 25 Ontario Regional Chief, Chiefs of Ontario,
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1 EXHIBITS (cont.) 2 No. Description Page 3 to the Honourable Ron Irwin, Minister, 4 Indian and Northern Affairs, Re: 5 Ipperwash. 192 6 P-298 Document Number 1003159, September 7 14/95 London Free Press article "Ipperwash 8 Deal Nearer, Barricades Come Down." 204 9 P-299 Document Number 1010176, November 29/95 10 letter to Honourable Chris Hodgson, Minister 11 of Natural Resources from Gord Peters, 12 Ontario Regional Chief, Chiefs of Ontario, 13 Re: Ipperwash Provincial Park. 220 14 P-300 Document Number 1009028, December 8/95 15 letter to Chief Gord Peters, Ontario 16 Regional Chief from Honourable Chris 17 Hodgson, Minister of Natural Resources 18 and Northern Development and Mines, Re: 19 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 222 20 P-301 Document Number 1012179, January 21 23/96 memorandum to Ron V. Rancart, 22 Deputy Minister, Ministry of Natural 23 Resources from Andromache Karakatsanis, 24 Re: Situation at Ipperwash Provincial 25 Park. 224
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1 --- Upon commencing at 10:33 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. Good morning everybody. Nice to see everybody 8 back again. Hope everybody had a happy Easter. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning. The 10 Commission calls as its next witness, Joan Goldi. 11 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mrs. Goldi. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning. 14 MS. JOAN GOLDI: Good morning. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Mrs. Goldi, do you prefer 16 to swear on the Bible, affirm or use an alternate oath? 17 MS. JOAN GOLDI: I don't know. What's 18 the difference? 19 THE REGISTRAR: Which do you prefer? 20 MS. JOAN GOLDI: I'll affirm. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Affirm? Very good then. 22 State your name in full for us please. 23 MS. JOAN GOLDI: Joan Catherine Goldi. 24 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 25
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1 JOAN CATHERINE GOLDI, Sworn: 2 3 EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 4 Q: Thank you very much, Mrs. Goldi. I 5 understand that you are here as a result of a summons 6 served by the Commission? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And it was served on you in your 9 personal capacity and in your capacity as a director and 10 officer of Goldi Productions Limited? 11 A: That's correct. 12 Q: You currently reside at 1409 Malibu 13 Terrace in Mississauga, Ontario? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And you are currently a director of 16 Goldi Productions Limited and have been since 1984? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And you have been an officer, namely 19 the secretary of the company, since 1984? 20 A: I guess so if that's my position. 21 You seem to have looked at my papers more than I have 22 lately. 23 Q: All right. Well, we did take the 24 opportunity to conduct something called a corporate 25 search and you are -- have been president since 1990?
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1 A: Okay. If you say so. 2 Q: Do you have any reason to dispute my 3 question? Thank you. 4 A: No, my husband and I think -- I think 5 switched vice president and president, we don't know 6 which is which. 7 Q: And your husband is John Goldi? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: And he also is a director and officer 10 of Goldi Productions Limited? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And he resides at 1409 Malibu Terrace 13 with you? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: I also understand that Goldi 16 Productions Limited's registered head address is 1409 17 Malibu Terrace in Mississauga? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And are you the person that primarily 20 responsible for filing the company's annual filings with 21 the Ministry of Consumer and Business Services? 22 A: Yes. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
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1 Q: And you and Mr. Goldi are the only 2 officers and director of the company? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And you are the only shareholders of 5 the company? 6 A: That's correct. 7 Q: Your studio or the company's studio 8 is also located in your house at 1409 Malibu Terrace? 9 A: That's correct. 10 Q: The business of Goldi Productions 11 Limited is the making of documentaries? 12 A: Documentaries and educational 13 material, yes. 14 Q: Thank you. Audio visual material? 15 A: Some is audio visual, some is 16 written. 17 Q: All right. And are you primarily the 18 producer of these materials? 19 A: Yes. Well, my husband and I are both 20 producers. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: But I do the main job of the liaison 23 and things like that. 24 Q: And I understand that Mr. Goldi's 25 primary role is as a cameraman and director?
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1 A: Cameraman, director and editor. 2 Q: And editor. Thank you. I understand 3 that your company has won many awards for its 4 documentaries. 5 A: That's correct. 6 Q: I also understand that your husband 7 and you, under the auspices of your company, conducted a 8 number of interviews with individuals who were then 9 residing at the former Camp Ipperwash after the shooting 10 death of Anthony O'Brien George? 11 A: Yes, several months after. 12 Q: And these interviews were conducted 13 at the Camp Ipperwash facilities? 14 A: Yes. I believe all of them were, as 15 far as I can recall; it was a long time ago. 16 Q: And I understand that these 17 interviews were conducted generally between December of 18 1995 and February of 1996? 19 A: They may have gone on until March but 20 I think, yes, I think primarily in that period, most of 21 them being in -- I'm not sure, I'd have to check my 22 dates. 23 Q: All right. But that -- 24 A: That general period, yes. 25 Q: Thank you. And these interviews were
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1 conducted in the presence of yourself and Mr. Goldi? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And was there anyone else present 4 aside from the interviewee? 5 A: I can't recall. I think it was 6 mostly just us and the interviewee; there may have been 7 other people in the room at the time. 8 Q: All right. Now, how did you obtain 9 access to these individuals inside Camp Ipperwash? 10 A: We initially -- well, we had a small 11 development project after the -- after the shooting, 12 because we had, once upon a time, proposed to CBC a 13 program on the -- on Ipperwash because we had an interest 14 in that area and we'd worked with native people as 15 teachers and as filmmakers in the Canadian North for a 16 long time. 17 So after the events at Ipperwash in 18 September, CBC called us and said, Do you think you could 19 go and find out what's really going on. And we said, 20 Well, we'd try. 21 And we -- we asked through several 22 organizations to help us; I think the -- as I recall, I 23 think the Chiefs of Ontario, and we called a couple of 24 other groups who knew people that we knew in the North. 25 And several people came and interviewed us and checked us
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1 out and then they helped us make the introductions to 2 people at Ipperwash. 3 And we explained to people that we -- we 4 basically wanted to find out what was going on. We 5 didn't believe that the newspapers were necessarily 6 telling us exactly what was going on. We lived in small 7 native communities in the North as teachers and worked 8 with people as -- as filmmakers. And we knew that what 9 went on in the press was not always the full truth of 10 what went on. 11 So we spent a lot of time just talking to 12 people. And we basically concluded that -- that what was 13 in the newspapers was not really what was happening. And 14 for our development report to CBC we said, People told us 15 that there were no guns at Ipperwash, everybody told us, 16 and we said we -- 17 Q: I wonder -- I wonder if I could just 18 stop you there. 19 A: Sure. 20 Q: I -- rather than telling us what 21 other people told you, what I'm -- I just wanted to know 22 how it was that you managed to get into the facility and 23 to talk to these people -- 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: -- and I think you've indicated that
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1 you -- you were -- that introductions were facilitated, 2 that you spoke to these people for a long time. 3 And then did they agree or some of them 4 agreed to be interviewed by you for purposes of a 5 possible documentary? 6 A: That was after we'd been there a long 7 time. Like, we went -- we really got to know people 8 because, well, because we liked them basically, I guess. 9 Q: All right. And as a result then, you 10 conducted a number of interviews; is that correct? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: But, excuse me, I'd like to say 14 something else first. At this point, by the time we 15 conducted the interviews, CBC had told us that they would 16 not go ahead with the documentary. They -- they 17 basically told us, when we put in our report to them, 18 that they didn't believe what we said or they had reason 19 to doubt. 20 They -- they told us we were, to quote, we 21 were too much on the side of the Indians and they were 22 not going to go ahead with the documentary and they'd 23 finish out the development proposal. But, we said, We 24 are going to go ahead and try and record interviews 25 anyway --
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1 Q: All right. 2 A: -- because we felt it was important. 3 Q: All right. And the purpose of 4 conducting the interviews was to have raw material for a 5 possible documentary in the future? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: I understand that you -- amongst the 8 people you interviewed, you interviewed Carolyn George, 9 Dudley George's sister -- sister? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: David George? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Pierre or Perry George? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Leland George? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: JT Cousins? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Buck Doxtator? 20 A: Yeah, yes. 21 Q: And Robert Isaac? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And what was the general parameter of 24 your interview with these individuals? 25 A: I don't know what you mean by
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1 parameter? 2 Q: What I -- what I mean is, what was 3 the -- what were the areas that you sought to cover in 4 your interviews? 5 A: Events surrounding the shooting and 6 also people's relationship to Camp Ipperwash and the 7 historical leading up to it. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: And the events that happened the 10 night of the shooting and close to that time. 11 Q: All right. Now, I just want to have 12 an understanding of the process of the interview. Was 13 there a preliminary interview that you conducted prior to 14 filming the interview? 15 A: By the time we interviewed each 16 person we knew that person very well and they knew us and 17 trusted us because otherwise you can't get a good 18 interview. And basically we turned the camera on and we 19 asked the -- the people to talk. 20 We -- we already knew from them what they 21 wanted -- I shouldn't say what they wanted to say, what 22 their background was on the -- on the part of the story 23 that we were interested in. And we basically turned the 24 camera on and let them talk and when they ran out of 25 things to say we would prompt them by saying, Could you
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1 please tell us about such and such. 2 Q: All right. And the people asking the 3 questions, did that alternate between yourself and Mr. 4 Goldi? 5 A: Yes, hmm hmm. 6 Q: I understand you also interviewed 7 Marcel Beaubien? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And that was -- 10 A: He didn't -- he didn't say much. 11 Q: And that was in his office in -- on 12 or about March the 14th, 1996? 13 A: I can't remember when it was, but 14 that sounds about right. Hmm hmm. 15 Q: All right. And I also understand 16 that you and your husband viewed certain broken picnic 17 tables on or about December the 5th, 1995, that were 18 located at the MNR parking lot, which was formerly the 19 site of the Tactical Operation Centre? 20 A: Yes. That was after hunting high and 21 low for them. We hunted all up and down the coast, we 22 went up to the -- I shouldn't say the coast -- the shore, 23 and we went up to the Pinery. 24 We searched all there -- all there, piles 25 of tables. Like, when people told us the story about
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1 sitting on the tables and the police cruisers coming and 2 hitting the tables, we honestly could not believe that 3 this would happen, and so we were curious. So we hunted 4 high and low and we finally found broken picnic tables 5 and they were, as you say, right beside the site where I 6 believe the OPP had had their headquarters. 7 Q: All right. I understand you also 8 recorded other objects which may be associated with the 9 occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park and, for example, 10 you recorded footage of Dudley George's -- what has been 11 called Dudley George's ambulance or Pierre George's car? 12 A: I don't know, I'm not the 13 cinematographer. I wasn't there when that was done. 14 Q: That was something that Mr. Goldi 15 did? 16 A: I don't know. 17 Q: Well, you viewed it, you have seen 18 it. 19 A: I don't think I have seen it, to tell 20 you the truth. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: Like, a lot of the footage I have not 23 seen. That was put away for nine (9) years and there's 24 too much footage to have gone through. 25 Q: I appreciate it, but you'll recall
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1 that certain members from the Commission attended at your 2 studio in April and May of 2004, and in your presence 3 certain videos were shared with members of the 4 Commission? 5 A: Excuse me. I was not there. Peter 6 Rehak told me not to bother showing up for that showing. 7 Q: There were two (2) showings. 8 A: That's right. That was the second 9 one that was on May 10th, that's when according to what 10 you've written to us that footage you saw, but I was not 11 there. 12 Q: Fair enough. You're also aware that 13 Goldi Productions Limited has footage of what has been 14 called the "OPP Who" car also known as Robert Isaac's 15 former car? 16 A: We had a little of it. But we didn't 17 have much because for the documentary that we finally 18 made, we had to buy it from CBC and CTV's footage. The 19 footage that was in the documentary was all purchased 20 from them. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: Of the "OPP Who" car. 23 Q: Now, do you recall having interviewed 24 any other individuals associated with the events of 25 September the 6th, 1995, other than whom I have listed?
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1 A: I haven't got -- I haven't got a list 2 with me. 3 Q: Well, Mrs. Goldi, did you not refresh 4 your memory knowing that you were summonsed to come 5 today? 6 A: No. You just asked me -- you didn't 7 ask me to speak. You just asked me to show up with this 8 tape. If you'd asked me I might have brought a list. 9 Q: All right. Did your company maintain 10 a catalogue of tapes identifying what was on each tape? 11 A: No. 12 Q: How did you keep record then of your 13 various tapes? 14 A: Numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, when they come 15 out of the camera, and they were put away. We had a 16 total of way over a hundred (100) tapes. A hun -- 17 somewhere between a hundred and sixty (160) and two 18 hundred (200) tapes. And they were numbered. 19 And they were dated and when -- when we 20 finally began the project on the documentary again last 21 year, when CBC did a development contract and then 22 commissioned the documentary, we had to start going 23 through and logging tapes. 24 We viewed the week before your first 25 viewing, when you came to our place. We spent about
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1 sixty (60) hours going through the tapes day and night -- 2 Q: Well -- 3 A: -- trying to figure out what was on - 4 - on them so that we could find some that you would find 5 useful. 6 Q: And when you say one hundred (100) to 7 two hundred (200) tapes dated -- 8 A: No. A hundred and sixty (160) to two 9 hundred (200) tapes because -- 10 Q: All right. Thank you. 11 A: -- we shot for a long time. We also 12 did a lot of material with people when -- on the 13 followup. Like we were at a lot of meetings and things 14 like that where -- where people were trying to get the 15 land claim solved. 16 Q: All right. These tapes were 17 consecutively numbered and dated? 18 A: Well, I think John probably kept a 19 log of the dates, but they were numbered, yeah. 20 Q: And a log that would say -- 21 A: No. We didn't keep a log. 22 Q: Well, I thought you just said that -- 23 A: No. We put the numbers, it's called 24 a pencil. You take the tape, you take it out of the 25 camera and put a number on it.
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1 Q: All right. 2 A: You put it in the box. 3 Q: You segregated the tapes so that they 4 would not be confused with other tapes that you would 5 have relating to other projects? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Is that fair? 8 A: Yeah, they were put in boxes. 9 Q: All right. Were the boxes labelled? 10 A: Ipperwash. 11 Q: Thank you. And how long -- how much 12 footage would be contained in terms of minutes on each 13 tape, on average? 14 A: They're half hour tapes. 15 Q: And how long, typically, were the 16 interviews that you conducted of each of the inter -- 17 individuals? 18 A: The series of interviews? It varied 19 from one (1) or two (2) tapes to -- I -- I don't know how 20 long the longest one was. Maybe three (3), four (4) five 21 (5) tapes. 22 Q: And did you maintain the underlying 23 raw unedited tapes of these recordings? 24 A: Pardon? 25 Q: Did you maintain the raw and unedited
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1 tapes of these recordings? 2 A: Did we retain them? 3 Q: Did you keep them? 4 A: Well, we kept them. I'm not sure 5 what you're asking me. 6 Q: Well, I -- 7 A: We made a documentary. 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: Obviously we had tapes to make the 10 documentaries. 11 Q: And after you made your documentary, 12 which I understand was over the course of this past 13 summer and it aired the fall -- 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: -- did -- did you continue to 16 maintain the tapes? 17 A: The tapes that we had -- actually the 18 tapes that were in the show have disappeared and we have 19 no idea where they went. We were running two (2) 20 projects in the summer. We had a horrendous deadline. 21 We had four (4) students working in our house. And we 22 don't know where the show tapes are. 23 They were kept in a separate box in the 24 editing room, but after the -- after the editing was done 25 -- like you don't use them once you've digitized them --
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1 you don't go back to the tapes. And when we went -- 2 finally went to hunt for them when you wanted them, we 3 can't find the show tapes anywhere. We have no idea 4 where they are. 5 Q: Now, when you say that you digitized 6 them, can you explain to me what -- what that means? 7 A: Well, John did the digitizing. It 8 means you run the tape into the computer. 9 Q: All right. And did -- and did you do 10 that at your studio? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: And so is there a record of the 13 digitized version of these recordings? 14 A: What do you mean a record? 15 Q: Well, do you have a digitized 16 recording? Do you still have that data? 17 A: The digitized recording? 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: No, we wipe that off the disks when 20 they're through, the storage is too expensive. It comes 21 off the drives when the show is over. 22 Q: What tapes do you have remaining, 23 then, relating to these -- to the Ipperwash-related 24 interviews? 25 A: All the ones that were left in the
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1 boxes that weren't part of the show. 2 Q: All right. And where are those 3 tapes, currently? 4 A: They're all in our house in the 5 editing studio and in the storage room upstairs. 6 Q: Did you provide a duplicate copy of 7 the -- the tapes that you used for the documentary that 8 aired on CBC to the CBC? 9 A: Why would we supply them to the CBC? 10 No. 11 Q: I'm asking the question -- 12 A: The CBC has no rights to those. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: No, they have the -- they -- they 15 receive the master. Like, when you have a contract with 16 somebody you provide them with the finished master, but 17 they see the tapes as they go along. I mean, if they 18 want to view, they can look at -- they can look at 19 material. I mean they don't look at the tapes, they look 20 at the computer. 21 Q: All right. And if I understand it 22 correctly, you made these recordings back in 1995 and you 23 -- you managed to keep and maintain all of the tapes up 24 and through the summer, fall of 2004 for the production 25 of this CBC documentary?
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1 A: Well, they -- they were in boxes, 2 they were stored in a room. That's what happens when you 3 do a show. You put them away and they're stored. 4 Q: Now, you -- you were noticed -- 5 notified as early as the spring of 2004 that this 6 Commission was interested in viewing these tapes? 7 A: The -- in viewing the tapes? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: Yes. I believe Peter Rehak contacted 10 me about the end of February or beginning of March, 11 something like that. 12 Q: And as a result, you made these tapes 13 or certain of them available for viewing by members of 14 the Commission in April and May of 2004? 15 A: That's correct. 16 Q: And these tapes all had audio 17 components, the interviews? 18 A: The interviews? 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And starting in July of 2004, 22 Commission Counsel advised you of its interest in 23 obtaining copies -- certain of -- of -- certain of the 24 tapes? 25 A: Yeah, that's right.
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1 Q: And this is before the CBC 2 documentary was made, obviously? 3 A: No, I'm sorry, it was after we had 4 started on it. The CBC documentary was finally 5 commissioned at the beginning of May. 6 Q: All right. Now, one (1) more 7 question, do you still have the computer on which the 8 digitized tapes were stored before they were erased? 9 A: Well, they're stored on external 10 drives from the computer. 11 Q: Okay. But do you still have the 12 computer and the hard drive? 13 A: The hard drive? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: The computer is there. 16 Q: Excuse me. Sorry, go ahead? 17 A: We have the computer, but it's old, 18 it's not being used. It's been replaced with a new 19 system. It was at the end of its life. 20 Q: Do you still have the external hard 21 drive upon which the digitization occurred? 22 A: Hard drives? 23 Q: Yes, the external hard drives. 24 A: The hard drives are there. 25 Q: All right.
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1 A: But the material's not on them, 2 they're being used for other shows. 3 Q: And where is this -- this piece of 4 equipment; is that at your home as well? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Thank you. Mrs. Goldi, under the 7 summons served upon you and your company you were 8 required to produce certain tapes today. And I'm going 9 to go through the list and ask you what it is, if 10 anything, that you have brought today. 11 First, we requested all raw, unaltered, 12 unedited audiovisual material, recording and interview 13 conducted and recorded under the auspices of Goldi 14 Productions Limited of the late Robert Isaac in relation 15 to events which occurred at Ipperwash Provincial Park 16 including the period from September 4th to 7th, 1995, and 17 the events leading to the occupation of Ipperwash 18 Provincial Park and CFB Camp Ipperwash, and immediately 19 following the shooting death of Anthony O'Brien Dudley 20 George. 21 Did you bring those tapes with you today? 22 A: I have the tape that my husband gave 23 me. You've got to ask him about the tapes, he makes the 24 tapes, I'm not an editor. But, yes, we have the tape of 25 -- that was made early on. When you -- when -- I think
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1 it was Peter Rehak that first told me that the Commission 2 would want to view the tapes, like, it was a long time 3 after you came and viewed the other tapes. 4 And at that time I believe my husband made 5 a tape because he thought you might -- you had mentioned 6 when you were viewing it that you would want a tape of 7 Robert Isaac, and he made a tape at that point. And I 8 believe that's the one we've got. I don't know, I'm not 9 the editor. 10 Q: Well, you'll recall that -- that a 11 tape was received by the Commission and that the 12 Commission provided correspondence to you indicating that 13 the tape, when played, did not have any audio and 14 appeared only to be with respect to part of the interview 15 that was conducted by you of Robert Isaac; that is, that 16 part which pertained to the events of the evening of the 17 6th of September, but not the initial part of the 18 interview. 19 A: Well, I don't know which part of the 20 interview it had but it had audio when it went out of the 21 house because I told John to make sure, Let's check and 22 make sure there's audio. And I sat there and it was 23 played, and it had audio when it was sent to you. 24 The picnic tables didn't have audio 25 because there was never audio --
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1 Q: Perhaps you could just -- 2 A: -- in the original. 3 Q: -- stay right now with the Robert 4 Isaac. 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: You have a tape in front of you, can 7 you -- is there a label on it? 8 A: "Robert Isaac Interview, Goldi 9 Productions Limited." 10 Q: All right. And you have advised me 11 this is a -- a duplicate copy of the tape that was 12 already sent to the Commission? 13 A: I don't know what tape it is. It's 14 the one my husband made and gave to me. 15 Q: Did you not have -- 16 A: I'm not the editor. 17 Q: Why did your husband make it for you? 18 A: I don't know what you're asking me. 19 Q: Well, as you know, the Commission has 20 made numerous attempts to serve your husband, all of 21 which have failed. 22 A: Excuse me. That was with your guy 23 who pounded on the door when my husband was away and 24 wouldn't identify himself. He looks like something from 25 Satan's Choice Motorcycle Gang; I was scared out of my
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1 wits. 2 Q: This is -- you were served by -- 3 A: You -- you served it to Goldi 4 Productions Limited and the officers of Goldi Productions 5 Limited, so obviously he's going to show up. But I'm not 6 answering the door for a guy who looks like that when I'm 7 by myself in the house. 8 Q: Do you recall receiving an e-mail 9 from the Commission asking when Mr. Goldi would kindly 10 make himself available to be presented with the summons? 11 A: I didn't receive that e-mail. 12 Q: I'm going to show to you a copy of an 13 e-mail, it's addressed to 14 John.Goldi@GoldieProductions.com and to 15 JGoldi@Sympatico.ca; are these not the e-mail addresses 16 for your husband and for Goldi Productions? 17 A: They go into his computer, I don't 18 see them. We get hundreds of e-mails a day. 19 Q: That wasn't my question. Are those 20 the accurate e-mail addresses? 21 A: They're not my e-mail, no. They're 22 for Goldi Productions, yes. 23 Q: Thank you. And you are an officer 24 and director of Goldi Productions, are you not? 25 A: But I don't read all the e-mail.
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1 Q: I'm going to show you a copy of the 2 e-mail provided. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: No, I've never seen this e-mail. 7 Q: For the record, the e-mail is dated 8 March 24, 2005. It's addressed to Mr. and Mrs. Goldi: 9 "I understand from our process server 10 that he has been unable to serve Mr. 11 John Goldi with a Summons to Witness 12 requiring him to appear to testify on 13 Wednesday March 30, 2005, despite 14 numerous attempts. Our process server 15 was, however, able to successfully 16 serve Mrs. Goldi with a virtually 17 identical summons. Mrs. Goldi has been 18 summonsed both in her personal capacity 19 and in her capacity as an officer and 20 director of Goldi Productions Limited. 21 I am writing to inquire as to when and 22 where Mr. Goldi would like to be 23 personally served prior to Wednesday, 24 March 30, 2005. If he does not wish to 25 make himself voluntarily available,
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1 then I will seek an order from the 2 Commissioner allowing a form of 3 substitutional service. In terms of 4 Mrs. Goldi, please come to the Hearing 5 prepared to advise the Commissioner of 6 all the locations, addresses of any 7 place, receptacle or unit, including a 8 storage unit, security box or other 9 storage facility, at which Goldi 10 Productions Limited stores its audio 11 visual and related materials. 12 In Mr. Goldi's most recent letter to 13 us, he indicated that Goldi Productions 14 Limited were required by the terms of 15 its insurance to store these materials 16 off-site. If this is so, then as an 17 officer and director of the company, 18 Mrs. Goldi has access to this 19 information if, indeed, she doesn't 20 already know. 21 I expect that Mrs. Goldi will bring to 22 the Hearing on Wednesday, all of the 23 materials required by the summons, 24 which is identified by the summons." 25 Now, you've indicated that you did not
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1 read this? 2 A: No, I haven't read the e-mail. I 3 read it now, yeah. 4 Q: And did Mr. Goldi indicate to you 5 that he had read this e-mail? 6 A: No, we don't discuss e-mail. We have 7 been up to our ears in work. 8 Q: Well, this -- 9 A: And we planned to come here. You 10 served us, we came, he's there. We brought -- you can 11 have all the information you like; I can supply you with 12 that information. The -- the -- requiring materials to 13 be off-site, according to the insurance, is only during 14 production and that expires the day -- that insurance and 15 that requirement expires the day the show is broadcast. 16 Q: All right. Thank you. I'd like to 17 tender into evidence now, as the next exhibit, the e-mail 18 that we have just identified. 19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-286, Your 20 Honour. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-286. 22 Thank you very much. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-286: E-mail from Commission to Mr. 25 and Mrs. J. Goldi and Goldi
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1 Productions, March 24/05. 2 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Second, I'd like to 4 tender into evidence at this time, the tape which has 5 been brought by Mrs. Goldi, identified as -- as an -- as 6 the interview -- or we haven't established that it's a 7 partial interview or not, Commissioner, and we'll have to 8 view the tape in order to determine that, but let's mark 9 this as the next exhibit. 10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-287, Your 11 Honour. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-287. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-287: Videotape of Robert Isaac 15 interview with Mr. And Mrs. 16 Goldi, Goldi Productions 17 Limited. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: Now, by the terms of the summons, you 21 were also required to produce today, all raw, unaltered, 22 unedited, audio visual material, recording, and an 23 interview conducted and recorded by you under the 24 auspices of Goldi Productions Limited of Perry George, 25 also known as Pierre George, the brother of the late
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1 Dudley George, in relation to events which occurred at 2 Ipperwash Provincial Park, including the period from 3 September 4 to 7, 1995, the events leading to the 4 occupation of the Ipperwash Provincial Park and CFB Camp 5 Ipperwash and immediately following the shooting death of 6 Anthony O'Brien Dudley George. 7 Did you bring that tape with you today? 8 A: I don't have that tape. 9 Q: What happened to that tape? 10 A: I have no idea. We had -- during the 11 summer we were producing a show with the shortest -- from 12 beginning to air time for a major feature length 13 documentary that I've ever heard of. We had a very short 14 deadline. 15 We also had another project running. We 16 had four (4) students working for us, we were all in a 17 small space and we did all kinds of housecleaning and I 18 have no idea where those tapes went, they disappeared 19 somewhere. When we went to look for them towards the end 20 of October we couldn't find them anywhere. We have 21 hunted high and low, we've gone through everything. 22 I -- I mean, tapes get lost. We've had 23 people lose tapes in the -- the past. We've had 24 government people lose tapes, we've had lawyers lose 25 tapes.
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1 Unfortunately, we don't know where the 2 show tapes were because as they were digitized, as far as 3 I know, they were thrown into a box in the editing room. 4 They were separated out from other tapes. I have no idea 5 where they are. 6 The only thing I can think of is that they 7 must have gone out by accident in a load of garbage, 8 because we were throwing out all kinds of old tapes. 9 We've been doing television for years and our house was 10 full of old tapes. It's -- I'm afraid it's been a bone 11 of some contention in our household. 12 Q: Now I want to also ask you, the 13 summons required you also to bring all raw, unaltered, 14 unedited audio visual material recorded and produced by 15 you under the auspices of Goldi Productions Limited of 16 the following scenes relating to the events which 17 occurred at Ipperwash Provincial Park between September 4 18 and 7, 1995. 19 Specifically broken picnic tables believed 20 to be the picnic tables removed by the OPP from the 21 Ipperwash Provincial Park area in or about September 5 or 22 6, 1995. Did you bring that with you today? 23 A: I don't have the originals of those. 24 Q: Well, copies will do. 25 A: You have a copy.
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1 Q: Did you bring a copy today? 2 A: No, you have the only copy in 3 existence other than what is on the -- on the final 4 production of the show. 5 Q: Did Pierre George's car, the day he 6 retrieved the car from the police pound, the vehicle 7 called the "OPP Who" car, and any other audio visual 8 material scenes relating to the Ipperwash Provincial 9 Park, the CFB Camp Ipperwash and the site of the former 10 OPP Tactical Operations Centre located at the parking lot 11 operated by the Ministry of Natural Resources off from 12 East Parkway Drive. 13 Did you bring any of that footage with you 14 today? 15 A: I've never seen that footage. No, I 16 don't have it. 17 Q: Did you make enquiries of your 18 husband with respect to that as an officer and a director 19 of Goldi Productions? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what was his response? 22 A: We don't have the tapes. I just told 23 you we hunted high and low for all the tapes. 24 Q: Mrs. Goldi, do you recall having a 25 conversation with Commission counsel to the affect that
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1 you said that the Robert Isaac tape, in particular, had a 2 great amount of commercial value to you because he was 3 now deceased that it was one (1) of the hottest tapes 4 that you possessed? 5 A: I have never discussed any tape I own 6 in terms of commercial value; never. 7 Q: You indicated that it was -- the most 8 -- one (1) of the most valuable tapes that you possess; 9 did you not? 10 A: I have never discussed any kind of 11 commercial value. There is no commercial value to those 12 tapes. 13 Q: Well, let's do -- let's delete the 14 word "commercial." Did you not say to Commission Counsel 15 that the Robert Isaac tape, in particular, was a valuable 16 and important tape? 17 A: I have not used anything to do with 18 valuable. I may have said it's the best tape and it's 19 very important, but it has no commercial value. What you 20 interpret in terms of valuable and what I interpret, are 21 totally different. 22 All the good parts of Robert, all the 23 important parts are in the documentary. They're out in 24 the world doing all kinds of promotion of what Robert 25 wanted. To me as a filmmaker the important parts go into
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1 the show, that's why you make a show. And I would never, 2 ever, purposefully lose any of my show tapes, believe me, 3 I never would. 4 But I have been working in a mess all 5 summer, piled up with lots of other people in a very 6 small space, computer works climbing all over each other. 7 Believe me, I would never lose tapes on purpose. 8 Q: Mrs. Goldi, these are tapes which you 9 managed to maintain from 1995 to 2004. These are tapes 10 which you knew the Commission had an interest in 11 reviewing. These are tapes that you knew since the 12 summer, the tapes that the Commission wished to have. 13 And you're telling me now that you don't 14 know where any of these tapes are, that they've been lost 15 somewhere. Coincidentally the tapes that we want. Not 16 the tapes -- all of the tapes, but just the tapes that we 17 want. 18 A: What do you mean the tapes that you 19 want? All the tapes -- 20 Q: The tapes that were the subject of 21 the summons, Mrs. Goldi. 22 A: The tapes that were in the show, all 23 the tapes that were used in the show, that were pulled 24 out of the other boxes in storage. It was one (1) box 25 because it -- they were thrown in in the editing room as
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1 they were digitized and that's the box we can't find. 2 It's all -- all the tapes that were used 3 in the documentary show and the interviews that were 4 digitized for it. And we -- we did make a tape, or my 5 husband made a tape early on in the season. As soon as 6 you indicated that you wanted the Robert Isaac tape, he 7 made a tape of it. 8 Q: The difficulty is, is that the tape 9 that your husband made was not of the entire Robert Isaac 10 interview and that -- and we determined that the sound 11 had been erased and a letter immediately -- 12 A: Don't ask me. 13 Q: -- was directed to Goldi -- Mr. 14 Goldi, with respect to Goldi Productions Limited advising 15 of the mistake and asking for it to be rectified. The -- 16 the offer was made to rectify the mistake, but we never - 17 - you never sent, nor did Goldi Productions send, the 18 revised tape. 19 A: Excuse me, I read the letter that he 20 wrote to you and he said that he would send it to you if 21 you wanted it as soon as you asked for it and you never 22 asked for it. I brought it today. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
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1 Q: Now, we'll get back to that -- that 2 e-mail. I propose to produce to you what the 3 Commission's response was to that offer of invitation, 4 but before we get to that, we received -- the Commission 5 received from Goldi Productions Limited a letter dated 6 February 22, 2005. And I'm going to show you a copy of 7 this letter and then we'll review it. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: Now, is this a letter that you have 16 seen before? 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: I'm sorry, could you say, "yes" for 19 the record, please? 20 A: Sorry, yes, I have seen this, hmm 21 hmm. 22 Q: Thank you. And it's addressed to 23 Susan Vella, the Ipperwash Inquiry, dated February 22, 24 2005? 25 A: That's right.
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1 Q: The first paragraph reads: 2 "After talking to our lawyer we are 3 very worried that we face potential and 4 serious liability problems that will 5 result from your uncontrolled release 6 of our unedited raw footage to the 7 media and to the public." 8 And then six (6) paragraphs down, it's 9 written: 10 "Public use and release of our unedited 11 material in the way you demand could 12 leave us open to a lawsuit that could 13 force us into personal and corporate 14 bankruptcy." 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: And then onto the third page, please, 17 second paragraph -- or second page, excuse me. Quote: 18 "You cannot use any of this material in 19 public until you have provided us with 20 a -- with the protection we need with a 21 zero deductible E and O (phonetic) 22 insurance certificate as outlined 23 above. 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: Now, nowhere in this letter does it
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1 suggest that the reason why the materials are not going 2 to be produced to us is because they are lost, but rather 3 because you received, apparently, advice to the effect 4 that by producing tapes to the Commission as evidence, it 5 would expose you to liability and you wished the 6 Commission to buy you an E and O insurance policy; isn't 7 that right? 8 A: That's with regard to the Robert -- 9 to the tapes that we have. We've been threatened, 10 obviously. When you -- obviously, when you do a 11 documentary like that one, has threats from people -- the 12 bus chasing type of lawyers. 13 Q: And I'd like to know, please, without 14 getting into the details of any conversations, I'd like 15 to know the name of the lawyer that you consulted in 16 respect to this advice. 17 A: Ashton -- what's her last -- Kelly 18 Lynn Ashton (phonetic). 19 Q: Thank you. 20 A: She's the one who does our errors and 21 omissions insurance for CBC. 22 Q: And did you advise that this was -- 23 the purpose of seeking these tapes was to tender as 24 exhibits at a Public Inquiry? 25 A: I'm -- I don't understand your
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1 question. 2 Q: That the use of the tapes would be to 3 be produced for purposes of entering into evidence at a 4 Public Inquiry? 5 A: No, I discussed it just in very 6 general terms. 7 Q: Thank you. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Give me a few minutes 12 to find the right document. Mr. Registrar, I would like 13 to hand up two (2) further documents for -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 15 going top make the -- the letter of February 22nd -- 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- an 18 exhibit? 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. Thank you, 20 Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 22 you should. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The next exhibit 24 please. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That would
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1 be -- 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-288, Your Honour. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 288. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-288: Letter addressed to Susan 6 Vella, February 22/05 from J. 7 Goldi, Goldi Productions, Re: 8 Possible Liability resulting 9 in release of tapes. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 12 Q: I'm now producing to you a e-mail 13 that's addressed to john.goldi@goldieproductions.com 14 dated November the 19th, 2004. It's in response to Mr. 15 Goldi's letter of November 2nd, 2004 in which he, amongst 16 other things, makes an offer to reconfigure the tape and 17 send it to us. 18 And you might look at the second page of 19 that, top paragraph, last line, I quote: 20 "You indicated -- you have indicated 21 that you will send the reconfigured 22 tape of Robert Isaac and we would 23 appreciate receiving it immediately. 24 We will pay for the overnight courier 25 fee, in this respect, to expedite the
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1 receipt. Furthermore, we require to -- 2 we continue to require production of 3 the balance of the video tape footage 4 required under the summons which 5 continues to be in full force and 6 effect; this includes production of the 7 entire Robert Isaac video and the other 8 scenes which you recorded. 9 In the event we do not immediately 10 receive these items, we will have no 11 choice but to exercise the Inquiry's 12 remedies to compel full disclosure of 13 all relevant tapes in your possession 14 and/or under your control. 15 I will be in my office on Monday and 16 Tuesday of next week to receive your 17 reply and the required video tapes. We 18 will also require a sworn affidavit 19 confirming the integrity, authenticity, 20 completedness and -- of the video tapes 21 which I have draft -- which I will 22 draft for your review and signature." 23 Did your -- did this e-mail not come to 24 you attention? 25 A: I don't think I've seen this one
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1 before. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I would like to make 3 that the next exhibit, Commissioner. 4 THE REGISTRAR: It's P-289, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-289: E-mail to J. Goldi, November 7 19/04 from Commission Re: 8 Robert Isaac and other 9 related tapes. 10 11 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. This is to 12 john.goldi. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 15 Q: I -- I appreciate that. 16 A: We're only two (2) people. We are 17 trying to make a living. We work sixteen (16) hour days. 18 I don't read every mail that comes to my husband, every 19 piece of e-mail that comes to my husband. 20 Q: Mrs. Goldi, no such suggestion has 21 been made to you. But the fact of the matter is, is that 22 these e-mails are all relevant and pertinent to the tapes 23 in question which are the product of the Goldi 24 Productions Limited. There has been numerous 25 correspondence back and forth by e-mail as between
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1 Commission Counsel and yourselves. 2 And so to suggest that -- that you didn't 3 read the e-mail does -- does not mean that the e-mail did 4 not come to John Goldi's attention or that it would have 5 come, in terms of content, to your attention. 6 A: I'm not saying it didn't come to John 7 Goldi's attention. I'm saying I didn't see it because I 8 can't read all the e-mails that come through. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: We searched high and low for the 11 tapes. I believe it was in late October when we were 12 looking for them to send to you. That's when we 13 discovered we didn't have the box. 14 And the only thing I -- can conclude is 15 that it went out during the summer when we were 16 housekeeping. I have no idea. I'd be glad to bring them 17 to you if we had them. 18 Q: And just for the record, I'd like to 19 show to you the first request that was made of you for 20 production of these tapes. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: Thank you. 25 Q: And you'll see this is a letter dated
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1 July 21, 2004 addressed to John and Joan Goldi, 1409 2 Malibu Terrace from Mr. Derry Millar. 3 And here is the initial request you'll 4 agree, for certain of the tapes in your possession, 5 particularly showing an interview with the late Robert 6 Isaac, a number of the scenes of physical surroundings of 7 Ipperwash Provincial Park and items which were the 8 subject of description by several of the aboriginal 9 persons whom you interviewed in preparation of a 10 documentary on the shooting death of Anthony Dudley 11 George; you agree that that's the first formal request 12 that was made of you for these tapes? 13 A: Yes, and it's vary vague. And, also, 14 on July 21st I was in the middle of production, I had -- 15 we had to deliver, according to our contract with CBC, we 16 were supposed to deliver our rough cut at the beginning 17 of August and deliver the finished show at the beginning 18 of September. 19 After I received this, I believe I spoke 20 to Derry on the phone and I said I'd try and get an e- 21 mail to him but I just didn't because we were totally 22 harassed. For one (1) thing, we couldn't have made the 23 tapes at that point because we did not have two (2) days 24 to go hunting for stuff and we couldn't -- couldn't do 25 any kind of taping of stuff or use our studio for
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1 anything else. 2 Like, I -- I'm sorry but our thing to the 3 CBC just came first. It's a deadline, it's my contract, 4 it's a living, and we had to do it. 5 Q: Mrs. Goldi, when did you complete the 6 -- the CBC documentary? 7 A: On September 20th. 8 Q: And, therefore, as of the date of 9 this letter you were in possession of the Robert Isaac 10 tapes, were you not? 11 A: I have no idea. I assumed, when I 12 received the letter and spoke to Derry, that I was, but 13 as far as I know, they'd all been digitized. I really 14 don't know if I had them at that point. 15 Q: In any event, there was certainly a 16 copy, whether it's digitized, on video or whatever, there 17 was a copy in existence when you got this letter from the 18 Commission and you took no steps to preserve a copy, did 19 you? 20 A: Pardon? 21 Q: You took no steps to preserve a copy 22 of that tape after being notified that it was required -- 23 A: There was a copy -- 24 Q: -- because you were busy making a 25 documentary?
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1 A: A tape was sent to you. 2 Q: Sorry. 3 A: It was made early in July, I believe, 4 it was -- or maybe it was mid-July, but a tape was sent 5 to you. As far as I knew, it was the tape you wanted. 6 Q: And we advised you that it was not. 7 In any event, I'd like to make this the next exhibit, 8 Commissioner. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-290. 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-290: Initial request made to John 12 and Joan Goldi, July 21/04 13 from Commission for Robert 14 Isaac and related tapes in 15 their possession. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: Mrs. Goldi, I'd like to know the 19 addresses of all of your offsite storage facilities, 20 please, with respect to Goldi Productions Limited? 21 A: What do you mean our "offsite storage 22 facilities"? 23 Q: My understanding, based on earlier 24 correspondence from Mr. Goldi, is -- and as you 25 confirmed, is that you have to have -- your insurance
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1 requires you from time to time to store tapes offsite. 2 Where -- what are the locations of those sites? 3 A: It was -- it was stored at John's 4 mother's house; she's eighty-nine (89) and the father 5 just celebrated his one hundredth birthday. Without 6 telling them, we put it in their basement storage. 7 Q: Is -- and what is the address of that 8 house, please? 9 A: God, you're not going to harass old 10 people. There is nothing there now. Believe me, there 11 is nothing there, I'll swear on the bible or anything you 12 want. Please do not harass the old people. 13 Q: The Commission is not in -- in the 14 business of harassing anything, Mrs. Goldi. 15 A: I'm -- I'm sorry, I'm not -- 16 Q: We would like to have -- 17 A: Sorry, I'm not implying that. But 18 just please don't -- we didn't even tell them we put it 19 there but we put it there. 20 Q: And what is the address of the house, 21 please? 22 A: It's an apartment on White Oaks 23 (phonetic) Boulevard in Oakville. 24 Q: The exact address, please? 25 A: I don't know. I would have to look
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1 in my book, which is at home. I'll e-mail it to you if 2 you want. 3 Q: Thank you. Do you have any other 4 storage facilities or security box or receptacles at 5 which you store tapes from time to time? 6 A: Our masters are stored at our 7 duplicating lab, which is VCR -- VCR Active Media 8 (phonetic). 9 Q: And what's the location of that 10 business? 11 A: It's on -- it's in Mississauga. I'll 12 get you the address after, I don't have it right here 13 with me -- 14 Q: And is that the -- 15 A: -- but I brought it. 16 Q: Is that under Goldi Productions 17 Limited? 18 A: Yes. No, it's not under -- the tapes 19 are under Goldi Productions Limited. They're a 20 duplicating house and the masters are stored there for 21 our finished shows -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- that we duplicate the master for 24 the -- for the Ipperwash documentaries there. 25 Q: And did you check with that facility
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1 to see if they had an extra copy? 2 A: Yeah. We've had stuff going in and 3 out. We checked because we had stuff at Simram 4 (phonetic) as well. 5 Q: And, the response? 6 A: They only have the masters. 7 Q: They have the masters? 8 A: They have the master for the 9 documentary, the finished documentary. 10 Q: Okay. Are you in poss -- were you 11 provided with physical items by members from the Army 12 Camp when you were interviewing them between December and 13 February or March of '96, such as David George's drawing 14 of -- of his conception of the police marching? 15 A: Which drawing? You mean the one we 16 used -- 17 Q: The one that's on -- the one that's 18 on your web site? 19 A: There's no drawing on our web site. 20 Do you mean the one we used in the documentary that we 21 filmed? 22 Q: Well, there's one that I saw that is 23 on your web site, but in any event, it may well have been 24 in the documentary, but did you receive any such physical 25 items --
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1 A: No, we put -- 2 Q: -- that were lent to you. 3 A: -- excuse me, that -- that drawing 4 was commissioned when we were shooting this summer on the 5 documentary and we were down here pretty well every 6 weekend and we knew that David George was a really fine 7 artist. 8 We remembered that he was and we went and 9 visited him several times and tried to persuade him to do 10 some -- some conceptual art and he did that drawing for 11 us. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: And we paid him the price that -- 14 that he wanted for it. That was done this summer, at 15 least that's what he told us, so I assume that was the 16 case. 17 Q: But were you not lent certain 18 physical material such as video tapes; do you recall any 19 -- being lent any materials from anyone at the Army Camp? 20 A: Terry and -- I can't remember his 21 wife's name, lent us some and we duplicated some and gave 22 them back, I believe, but I don't know where those are. 23 We had -- there were some materials that Ben Pouget 24 (phonetic) said that they had, but he had lent them to a 25 native fellow who was making a documentary in Toronto.
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1 And we kept phoning and phoning that guy 2 to see if we could borrow them and we could never get 3 hold of him. I believe, as I recall, we even went to his 4 apartment looking for him and he wasn't home. And Ben 5 told us that the material somehow got destroyed in a 6 flood or something and we were never able to get hold of 7 it. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: We know that's material that -- that 10 was made shortly after the -- shortly after the shooting. 11 Q: All right. All right. Commissioner, 12 I'd like -- I'm sorry -- propose to adjourn this 13 examination pending the Commission's ability to review 14 the -- the tape and determine whether or not the further 15 attendance by Mrs. Goldi might be required in the future. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you need 17 to hear it now? 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, not here now. I 19 wouldn't propose to do it here now. We'll review it in 20 due -- in due course. Well, we may be able to play it 21 here, we're not sure. It depends on the tape, obviously, 22 but I'd like to adjourn the examination for now pending a 23 possible recalling of this witness depending upon what we 24 find on the tape. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine.
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1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. I propose 2 that we take a fifteen (15) minute recess right now. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 4 I was going to suggest and we sort of see where we are 5 and where we're going. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And we'll see where we 7 are and perhaps we can look at the tape quickly and -- 8 and then I can make a determination as to whether we will 9 need to recall the Witness. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 11 that's a good idea. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right, fair enough. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 14 break now. 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 17 very much. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 11:32 a.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 11:48 a.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed. Please be seated.
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1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mrs. Goldi, would you 2 take the stand please? 3 THE WITNESS: Me? 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Commissioner, I can 5 advise that we've been able to view at least a part of 6 the tape and -- and the audio is on this copy of the 7 tape. It is obviously a -- a partial -- copy of the 8 partial interview but I have no further questions for 9 Mrs. Goldi. 10 However, there may be some individuals or 11 parties who wish to cross-examine and perhaps we could 12 see. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Does any of 14 the parties wish to cross-examine this witness? Or do 15 any of the parties wish to cross-examine? 16 Mr. Klippenstein...? How long do you 17 think you might be? 18 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: About five (5) 19 minutes, sir. 20 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: I'm not -- Mr. 21 Commissioner, I'm not quite so concerned about a cross- 22 examination but it's procedural matter where we're going 23 with this. 24 And I can't quite tell -- and I -- and I 25 understand -- I understand the dilemma My Friend's
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1 facing. But if -- if other documents were to be produced 2 -- other tapes were to be produced and the difficulty is 3 that my client was interviewed in one (1) of those tapes 4 apparently; I haven't seen it. 5 Obviously My Friend hasn't seen it either, 6 I take, or hasn't -- doesn't have a copy that's about to 7 be produced. But prior to -- should the Witness be 8 recalled and should that tape be produced, I'd obviously 9 like sufficient advanced production of that tape so that 10 I can review it with my client and prepare any cross- 11 examination that might be necessary. 12 But I'm not sure where we're headed, 13 whether there's to be -- there's many options that My 14 Friend has, ranging on a continuum from contempt all the 15 way through to -- to simply seeking to attend and produce 16 orders. I don't know -- or produce the tapes -- I don't 17 know where we're headed but I've got to protect my 18 client's interest by making this point before you now. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 20 you've done that. 21 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Thank you, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 23 anything you wanted to add to that? 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The -- the intent of 25 seeking the Robert Isaac tape was because Mr. Isaac is
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1 deceased -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Deceased. 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- and therefore, this 4 would be a statement made very close to the event with 5 respect to Pierre George, there's an issue about his 6 ability to -- to testify that -- so we were seeking that 7 tape. 8 And the physical objects are objects that 9 either are in a deteriorated state or they're no longer 10 available for inspection. So these -- this was a way to 11 get evidence that we could not otherwise get at. 12 In the event that we obtain other tapes 13 that are relevant, then of course we'll disclose those 14 and if we have to recall the Witness to put them in, 15 we'll do that and My Friends will have notice of that. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 Does that satisfy your concern? 18 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Yes, thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 All right, we'll do the cross-examination. It's just Mr. 21 Klippenstein. 22 Mr. Klippenstein...? 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN. 25 Q: Good morning, Mrs. Goldi. My name is
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1 Murray Klippenstein and I'm the lawyer for the Estate of 2 Dudley George and for some of the brothers and sisters of 3 Dudley George. 4 We've had some discussion this morning of 5 some tapes that apparently are no longer available. I 6 don't know if you're aware of this but the -- the family 7 members of Dudley George have been calling for a public 8 inquiry for many years, including from right after the 9 shooting and repeatedly month after month, year after 10 year. 11 Can you give me some idea if the -- if the 12 government of Premier Harris had called a public inquiry 13 shortly after the shooting or a year or two (2) 14 thereafter, would access to some of these tapes have been 15 a little easier? 16 A: What do you mean "easier"? 17 Q: Would some of them been available 18 that are not available now? 19 A: Well, they were available when we 20 started the documentary because we digitized them. Did 21 you see the documentary that was on CBC? 22 Q: Yes, yes. 23 A: Because I can provide you with a copy 24 of it -- 25 Q: Yes.
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1 A: -- probably. 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: I mean if the family members have 4 copies. 5 Q: Right. 6 A: The tapes were available until we did 7 the documentary but we have not handed them out to 8 different people. 9 Q: Right. 10 A: Because it would simply take too long 11 to have duplicated them. 12 Q: But if Premier Harris had called an 13 inquiry previously, those tapes would have been 14 available? 15 A: What do you mean would they have been 16 available? They were available until we did the 17 documentary. They disappeared somewhere during our 18 production in the summer. I'm not sure what you're 19 asking. 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think that though the 21 evidence is in that they were available at a certain 22 period of time and they were not available at another 23 period of time. And whatever can be drawn from that, can 24 be drawn from that. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: From that
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1 evidence -- the tapes existed up until the time the 2 documentary was produced. 3 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you. I - 4 - I don't need to pursue the question any further. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 7 Q: With respect to the -- the tapes that 8 -- that are not available anymore, that -- that may have 9 been inadvertently disposed of, to the best of your 10 recollection or knowledge, was there any evidence or 11 suggestion, in any of the materials on those tapes, that 12 the Native protestors had guns in Ipperwash Park from the 13 beginning of the occupation until the shooting of Dudley 14 George? 15 A: No, exactly the opposite -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just an 17 answer to -- 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just a minute, hold 19 on. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- just 21 before you answer the question. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think that this -- 23 this question is -- is inappropriate. It's asking for 24 the Witness's recollection of what was on tapes which 25 allegedly no longer exist. We've had the direct evidence
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1 of the witnesses, most of whom were interviewed by the 2 Goldi's and I think that the value that can be added by 3 this person is -- is minimal. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I agree with 5 that. 6 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: If I may -- if 7 I may make a submission on that, Mr. Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MR MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: My Friend has 10 referred to parts of an interview of Robert Isaac, who is 11 deceased; interviews of Mr. Pierre George, who may or may 12 not be called. She's mentioned evidence that has 13 deteriorated, so some of that may not be available. And 14 so my question and my -- and the answer of Mrs. Goldi may 15 be the best available evidence on that question. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, if it 17 -- I'll let you answer that, Ms. Vella. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. The -- the 19 tape that we have -- I haven't seen the whole thing but 20 I'm somewhat familiar with it -- I believe that Mr. Isaac 21 speaks to the issue, so Mrs. Goldi would not be the best 22 evidence in that respect. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you 24 expect to play that tape at some point; the one of Robert 25 Isaac?
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1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: We will tender that 2 tape at some point. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's an 4 exhibit now? 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It is an exhibit but 6 we intend to also play it for the parties once they've 7 had an opportunity to have a look at it. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think you 9 should move on, Mr. Klippenstein. I don't think that's a 10 useful area of cross-examination. 11 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, 12 Commissioner. I have no further questions, thank you. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 14 very much. 15 You're excused now. Thank you very much. 16 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 17 18 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 19 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The Commission would 21 like to call as its next witness John Goldi. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hello. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 24 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Goldi. 25 MR. JOHN GOLDI: Hi.
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1 THE REGISTRAR: How are you, sir? Do you 2 prefer to swear on the bible, affirm, or use an alternate 3 oath? 4 MR. JOHN GOLDI: Affirm is fine. 5 THE REGISTRAR: Very good, sir. Could 6 you state your name in full for us? 7 MR. JOHN GOLDI: Which? 8 THE REGISTRAR: State your name in full. 9 MR. JOHN GOLDI: John W. Goldi, G-O-L-D- 10 I. 11 THE REGISTRAR: And the W stands for? 12 THE WITNESS: Werner, W-E-R-N-E-R. 13 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 14 15 JOHN WERNER GOLDI, Affirmed: 16 17 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: Mr. Goldi, I understand that you 19 presently reside at 1409 Malibu Terrace in Mississauga? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you are currently a director and 22 officer of Goldi Productions Limited? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: And with your spouse, Mrs. Goldi, 25 Joan Goldi, you are the sole shareholder -- sole
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1 shareholders of that company? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: I understand that -- were you advised 4 that there were attempts to serve you with a summons to 5 witness -- to appear at this Inquiry? 6 A: That's right. My wife told me when I 7 got home that somebody was there. 8 Q: All right. And did she share with 9 you the -- the summons that she received? 10 A: Yes. We looked at it, yeah. Hmm 11 hmm. 12 Q: So you were aware that she was being 13 summoned, as was the company? 14 A: Sure, yeah. 15 Q: And you assisted her with respect to 16 attempting to comply with that summons? 17 A: Oh, yes, that's why I'm here, because 18 I have not been served with a summons. 19 Q: All right. Thank you. And did you 20 receive a copy of an e-mail from me dated March the 24th, 21 2005, Exhibit P-286, perhaps that can be put before the 22 Witness. 23 A: Yeah, I'd appreciate it. March 24th? 24 Q: 2005. It's Exhibit P-286. 25 A: Just the one (1) pager there?
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1 Q: It's a one (1) pager -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: It's addressed, "Dear Mr. and Mrs. 4 Goldi --" 5 A: "I understand from our process 6 server --" 7 Q: That's right. 8 A: Okay, fine. Yes, I have that. 9 Q: And we requested as to whether you 10 would voluntarily produce yourself for -- 11 A: Sure. 12 Q: -- service. 13 A: Right. 14 Q: And you got that e-mail? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: You didn't respond to it. 17 A: Well, I'm here. 18 Q: All right. But you didn't respond to 19 me that you had receipt or that you would be here. 20 A: No, I guess I didn't. 21 Q: Thank you. Now, you wrote to me -- 22 you'll recall that -- you will recall that you provided 23 us with a copy of a tape of the interview of Robert Isaac 24 some time ago and that we wrote you back to indicate that 25 we could not obtain the audio on it and that there was
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1 quite a lot of wording across the top and the bottom. 2 And we asked you to reconfigure it so that we could have 3 audio and reduce the writing on this image. 4 A: This story goes back a lot further 5 than that. 6 Q: I appreciate -- 7 A: The story -- 8 Q: Oh, go on. 9 A: The story begins actually when you 10 guys were in our house asking to see which kind of tapes 11 you wanted to see. And I distinctly remember asking you, 12 Rick, and Derry whether you were interested in seeing 13 tapes of interviews before the night of the shooting, 14 whether -- when people were down at the Camp and 15 picnicking or on the Camp -- Army Camp years themselves 16 and everybody said, No, we're interested in the night of 17 the shooting. 18 So, tapes that you asked to see of 19 interviews were all based on the night of the shooting. 20 And that happens to be the way Robert's tape is now 21 configured because subsequent to that, listening -- 22 talking to Peter Rehak and talking to Derry on the phone, 23 the -- what you guys wanted kept changing from viewing or 24 showing or seeing, dupes, no dupes, dupes with things on 25 them.
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1 It kept changing over and over. And one 2 (1) time during this -- July I think, I made -- I made 3 that VHS copy of Robert's interview on the day of the 4 shooting. That's why it's split off, because your 5 interest and focus, as expressed to me on April 7th and 6 May 10th, was the day of the shooting. So, when I had 7 free time some time, it must have been July, I -- I did a 8 VHS dub of Robert on the day of the shooting and you have 9 that tape. 10 Q: Now, you'll appreciate that during 11 the course of showing the Commission members various 12 interviews, you showed to us the entire interview of 13 Robert Isaac, which -- which related to not just the 14 events of September the 6th, but his prior attendance at 15 the Park and the aftermath of the shooting; is that not 16 correct? 17 A: No, it's not correct. I do not 18 recall whether I showed you the whole Robert interview, 19 because it is on two (2) tapes. It's on two (2) tapes, 20 and you specifically referred to your notes in your e- 21 mail to me that that interview was on one (1) tape and 22 you confirm that Rick Moss's (phonetic) notes also 23 confirm the interview you wanted was on one (1) tape. 24 The -- his interview exists on two (2) tapes, but the day 25 of the shooting it was on one (1) tape.
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1 Q: Mr. -- Mr. Goldi, now, with all due 2 respect -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- you have received correspondence 5 and e-mail from the Commission since May of 2004 asking 6 for the entire unedited interview of Robert Isaac. 7 A: That's not true. I'd like to see an 8 e-mail from May say -- showing me that you want Robert 9 Isaac's interview or any other interview on tape. I 10 think the first notice we ever got in writing that you 11 wanted -- that you wanted footage was from Derry to Joan 12 on July 27th. 13 Q: July the 21st. This is Exhibit P- 14 290, perhaps you can put that letter before the Witness. 15 THE REGISTRAR: He has it. 16 THE WITNESS: Is that Derry's letter? 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's Mr. Millar's 18 letter, that's correct. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay, fine, yeah. And I 20 think that's the first letter we ever got asking us for 21 tapes, not May as you just said or June -- 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: No, no. That -- you misunderstood 25 me.
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1 A: Okay. 2 Q: I indicated that we saw the entire 3 tape, and that's why in -- in -- in April and May and 4 that's why we know what it is we're asking for. And it's 5 clear, Mr. Goldi, from the tape that we have, that you 6 have produced, that it starts mid-sentence and it ends 7 mid-sentence, so you'll agree, sir -- 8 A: It could be. It could be. 9 Q: -- that what you produced to the 10 Commission or at least what Mrs. Goldi produced to the 11 Commission today, is not the entire interview as you 12 conducted it, but a segment of it. 13 A: That's right, yeah. 14 Q: And you'll agree from your review of 15 the -- of the summons served upon Mrs. Goldi that we 16 didn't ask for a partial interview, but rather the whole 17 interview. 18 A: Hmm hmm, but as I said -- 19 Q: Isn't that true? 20 A: I guess. 21 Q: And you'll recall that we caused you 22 to be served with an earlier summons, sir, which also 23 asked for the entire unedited interview. It did not say 24 an edited interview, it said the entire unedited 25 interview.
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1 A: Well, as -- as I mentioned, the 2 interview was on two (2) tapes. You told me that it was 3 your expert advice that it was on one (1) tape, and that 4 is the tape you wanted. I can find the e-mail where you 5 say those exact words. 6 Q: Sir, we indicated that we knew the 7 tape number of -- insofar as you relayed it to us and it 8 was tape number 55 -- 9 A: Actually, the tape -- 10 Q: -- but I didn't have the tape. 11 A: -- which is not the tape number for 12 that interview, ma'am, I'm sorry. 13 Q: Well, then I guess -- 14 A: It's the wrong tape. 15 Q: -- we have the wrong tape. 16 A: The tape you have there is tape 56, 17 which is Robert on the day of the shooting. 18 Q: Now, sir, Exhibit 290 is the letter 19 from Mr. Millar and you'll see in front of you dated July 20 21, 2004, it's addressed to both you and to Joan Goldi. 21 And we are requesting, among other things, the video 22 tapes in your possession showing an interview with the 23 late Robert Isaac, not an edited or partial interview. 24 A: Okay. Fine. 25 Q: Furthermore, you received an e-mail
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1 from us indicating once you had given to us the partial 2 interview without audio, that we expected you to produce 3 the entire interview. 4 A: Well, -- 5 Q: If you'd like we could look at the e- 6 mail to you dated November 19, 2004 and it's Exhibit P- 7 289 and in that e-mail we outline that we require the 8 entire interview, not the partial interview and with 9 sound. Do you have that in front of you, sir? 10 A: I'm trying to find it. 11 Q: Perhaps you can show -- 12 A: I don't know if I have it. I would 13 appreciate a copy of that document. 14 Q: Certainly, of course. 15 A: I'm not sure where the heck it is 16 now. 17 Q: Exhibit 289. It's the detailed 18 response to your letter of November the 2nd. 19 A: Yeah, among the interviews we 20 reviewed was April 7, was the one conducted by Robert 21 Isaac. 22 Q: That's right. 23 A: His interview was recorded on tape 24 55. 25 Q: That was our information.
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1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: "In his interview, Robert Isaac 3 outlined his involvement in First 4 Nation efforts to reclaim the former 5 Stoney Point Reserve; his background in 6 the Friendship and Honour Club from 7 Walpole Island; his initial involvement 8 with Dudley George as caretakers of the 9 Camp Ipperwash beach --" 10 A: Okay, I've got it all in front of me. 11 All I -- all I -- 12 Q: Excuse me, sir, if I might just 13 finish my question? 14 A: Sure, sorry. 15 Q: Thank you. 16 "In or around spring of 1995 in his 17 detailed account of the occupation of 18 Ipperwash Provincial Park and the 19 ultimate confrontation with the OPP, 20 which resulted in the shooting death of 21 Dudley George. 22 As you know, Mr. Isaac is deceased and 23 hence the only direct evidence of which 24 the Commission is aware of Mr. Isaac's 25 perceptions of these events is what is
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1 recorded in your interview of him. You 2 will appreciate that Mr. Isaac, as a 3 direct participant in the events 4 leading up to the actual occupation 5 itself of Ipperwash Park, would have 6 been a critical witness at the Inquiry. 7 It is in the public interest that his 8 entire unedited recorded interview be 9 called as evidence at the Inquiry. In 10 addition, we reviewed recordings of 11 various things relevant to the 12 occupation of the Park including Pierre 13 George's car and certain broken picnic 14 tables. These video tapes are also 15 important, since these objects no 16 longer exist, either at all or in their 17 original form. 18 Accordingly, on September the 20th, 19 2004, the Commission caused both you 20 and Mrs. Goldi to be served with a 21 summons to appear, in which you were 22 obliged to produce at the inquiry inter 23 alia the entire unedited taped 24 interview of Robert Isaac. 25 In our covering letter of September 17,
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1 2004, we detailed the various videotape 2 recordings which we require and why. 3 We also indicated that if you were able 4 to provide the Commission with copies 5 of the requested materials before 6 September 28 together with a sworn 7 affidavit attesting to the authenticity 8 and integrity of the tapes, we would 9 endeavour to have the tapes entered 10 into evidence on consent without the 11 need to have you personally appear. 12 In response, in October 2004, I had a 13 telephone conversation with Joan Goldi 14 in which she expressed concerns 15 regarding protection of your commercial 16 interest in the raw videotape footage, 17 notwithstanding the fact that your 18 documentary had already aired on CBC 19 television. I indicated that I would 20 look into the -- what the Commission 21 might be able to do in this respect. 22 In my e-mail communication of October 23 11, 2004, I provide the Commission's 24 response, i.e., you could attach a 25 simple header publicizing that you
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1 retained intellectual property rights 2 in the footage. 3 In the latter part of October we 4 received a package containing two (2) 5 videotapes. The first was a duplicate 6 recording of part of Robert Isaac's 7 interview and the second was a limited 8 shot of broken picnic tables. Neither 9 had any sound which we could access. 10 Both had several large lines -- several 11 lines in large font affixed across each 12 image providing advertising for your 13 production company as well as the 14 traditional copyright line which 15 hampered the visibility of the images. 16 In my e-mail communications of October 17 27, 2004, I set out the Commission's 18 grave concerns for the deficiencies of 19 your production which falls short of 20 the requirements set out in the 21 Commission's summons. By e-mail dated 22 October 29, 2004, you stated that you 23 would look into our concerns and 24 advise. 25 By e-mail attachment dated November 2,
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1 2004, you provided a letter in which 2 you provided a response to the 3 Commission's concerns. In the letter 4 you advised that you could not find the 5 balance of Robert Isaac's interview or 6 the other footage required by the 7 Commission. 8 Your advice raises further grave 9 concerns on the part of the Commission 10 particularly when measured against Mrs. 11 Goldi's persistent advice to me that 12 the Robert Isaac video footage was the 13 most valuable piece of footage you had. 14 Further, our notes indicated that the 15 entire interview was on one (1) tape. 16 I specifically made a note of the tape 17 number due to the fact that Robert 18 Isaac was deceased, as did our 19 investigator, Inspector Rick Moss. 20 You have indicated that you will send a 21 reconfigured tape of Robert Isaac, and 22 we would appreciate receipt 23 immediately. We will pay for the 24 overnight courier fee in this respect 25 to expedite receipt."
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1 Sir, we did ask you for the entire 2 unedited videotape. We refer back to our original 3 summons of September the 20th, and we -- and we asked you 4 for the -- the entire tape. 5 Now, you'll agree with me that what you 6 have caused to be produced to the Commission today 7 through Joan Goldi is a partial recording of the Robert 8 Isaac interview, notwithstanding your knowledge as back 9 as at least July of 2004 that we required the entire 10 unedited interview? 11 A: Well, all I'm saying is you have kept 12 moving the goal posts on me throughout this period on 13 what you were after and what you weren't after. 14 The letter you're quoting here, where 15 you're saying you want all of this stuff with Robert 16 talking about the friendship and honour club, you weren't 17 interested in that when you were at our house watching 18 the tapes, because I brought up all the stuff outside the 19 night of the shooting, there was no Commission interest 20 in seeing these tapes. 21 So that was my understanding, that you 22 weren't interested in the tapes of Robert then, on that 23 day either, which is why in July I made the tape you now 24 have. My tape does not reflect your November e-mail 25 here. It reflects my understanding of your presence at
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1 my house expressing your views on what you were 2 interested in hearing from Robert Isaac. 3 Q: In fact, it was written in response - 4 - given in response to the letter from Mr. Millar of July 5 21, 2004 -- 6 A: Right. 7 Q: -- in which he requested the 8 interview -- 9 A: Right. 10 Q: -- with the late Robert Isaac -- 11 A: Okay. So that's -- 12 Q: -- not the partial interview -- 13 A: Okay. 14 Q: -- Mr. Goldi. 15 A: Yeah. And -- 16 Q: In any event, you were clear, if not 17 in the summer, then by the fall, that we wanted the whole 18 interview? 19 A: That's right. And the -- the tape 20 that I provided you was one that I made sometime in July 21 based on my understanding of your needs in July. I was, 22 in July, in the midst of the toughest job I've ever had 23 in my life. 24 If you -- to give you a point of reference 25 of what we were doing, we were doing a one and a half ( 1
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1 1/2) hour feature documentary. A guy who does a 2 documentary that's an hour long, gets a year and more to 3 do it. 4 We were given eight (8) weeks. It's 5 unheard of, in Canada, that someone does a feature 6 documentary in one and a half (1 1/2) -- in one and a 7 half ( 1 1/2) hours in eight (8) weeks. It's undoable 8 and that it be done by two (2) people is even -- it's 9 just impossible. 10 Q: Mr. Goldi, I -- I think we all 11 understand that you and Mrs. Goldi had a busy summer -- 12 A: In other words -- 13 Q: -- and we also -- 14 A: -- I was also making tapes for the SI 15 -- for the -- for the Commission. I wasn't -- that when 16 Derry's letter arrived, I did not start going through 17 tapes making tapes or dupes. We let it ride. We let it 18 slip. 19 Q: Mr. Goldi -- 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: -- you had a request from a public 22 inquiry. You knew that we wanted the tape. 23 A: And you have a tape that I gave in 24 answer to your request. 25 Q: You knew that we wanted the whole
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1 interview and you have not produced that, have you? 2 A: Well, the point is, by the time 3 November came around, we couldn't find the originals, as 4 I pointed out to you in my letter that -- in November 5 here. My letter of November 2nd pointed out to you that 6 we couldn't find the originals. 7 The -- the tape I made from you first was 8 made off a VHS and this one was made off a VHS too. They 9 were not made off the original masters. I don't think 10 you understand how a television documentary is edited. 11 Q: Mr. Goldi -- 12 A: And maybe that's the problem. 13 Q: -- I -- I don't require -- I don't 14 think the Commission is benefiting from your -- your 15 evidence concerning the process of editing and 16 documentary so let's -- 17 A: Well, it explains why the tapes 18 disappeared. 19 Q: -- let's -- let's keep this focussed. 20 Now on February 22nd, 2005, you caused a letter to be 21 written on behalf of Goldi Productions Limited; is that 22 right? 23 A: Which letter are you referring to 24 please? 25 Q: Letter after we -- after talking to
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1 our lawyer. 2 A: Okay, fine. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-288. 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 7 Q: It's Exhibit P-288. It should be in 8 front of you, Mr. Goldi. 9 A: It's fine, I'll go from memory. 10 Q: Well, do you recall causing that 11 letter to be sent to me? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You don't 13 have to go from memory. We've got a copy for you. 14 THE WITNESS: Okay. Yeah, that's fine. 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Do you have it there? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Have you got 17 a copy? 18 THE WITNESS: Yeah, okay, it's here. 19 That's the one you provided, that's fine. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: Thank you very much. And you 23 indicate, sir, that the reason that you are not providing 24 the unedited raw footage to us is because of concerns you 25 have with respect to liability if these tapes are
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1 tendered into the Public Inquiry as evidence. 2 And that you require the Commission to 3 provide you and to purchase for you, a certifi