1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 March 10th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )    (np)
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )    (np)
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein )            The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )   (np)     George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )   (np)     Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    )  (np)      Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )   (np)       Aazhoodena  (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stony
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Sue Freeborn     )
 25  Lynette D'Souza  )    (np)

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )              Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )    (np)
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (np)
 11  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 12  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 13  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 14  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 15  
 16  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 17  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 18  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 19  
 20  Ian Roland       )              Ontario Provincial 
 21  Karen Jones      )   (np)       Police Association &
 22  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 23  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
 24  Annie Leeks      )   (np)
 25

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  Clem Nabigon     )   (np)
  7  Adriel Weaver     )    (np)      Student-at-Law
  8  
  9  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
 10  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 11  
 12  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 13  Matthew Horner   )
 14  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 15  
 16  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 17  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 18  Megan Mackey     )
 19  
 20  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 21  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 22  Melissa Panjer   )
 23  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 Discussion 6 7 ROBERT ALLAN ANTONE, Affirmed 8 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 10 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 77 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 91 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 112 12 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 120 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 127 14 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 210 15 16 17 18 Certificate of Transcript 217 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-258 Email dated June 4, 1993 from Mr. 4 Swan to Mr. Gagnon and Mr. Vanierson 8 5 P-259 Email dated August 21st, 1995 from 6 Mr. Hill to Mr. Doerr, three pages. 8 7 P-284 Document No. 7000339 July 27/'95 Maple 8 Situation Report No. 024 period 9 covering July 26-July 27/'95 from 10 Capt. W.D. Smith, Tac. Com. Camp 11 Ipperwash 176 12 P-285 Document No. 1000600 September 18/'95 13 London Free Press article "Long on 14 Stories but short on facts." 200 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:04 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, good 7 morning. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I thought that perhaps 11 it would be appropriate this morning that, given the 12 national memorial service being held today in Edmonton, 13 that we observe a minute of silence in respect of the 14 four (4) RCMP officers, Constables Leo Johnston, Peter 15 Schiemann, Anthony Gordon, Brock Myrol who were killed 16 last Thursday. 17 And as you know and everyone knows there's 18 a national memorial service being held today in Edmonton 19 and perhaps we could -- I would ask that we all stand and 20 observe a minute of silence in the honour of the officers 21 and their families. 22 23 (MINUTE OF SILENCE) 24 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you,

1 Commissioner. Before we start with our witness, there 2 was a couple of housekeeping matters that need to be 3 attended to. 4 We reserved, the other day, Exhibit 258 5 for an e-mail that was dealt with by Mr. Ross and in -- 6 during the examination of Chief Bressette and it's an e- 7 mail dated June 4, 1993 from Mr. Swan, S-W-A-N, to Mr. 8 Gagnon and Mr. Vanierson, V-A-N-I-E-R-S-O-N. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-258: Email dated June 4, 1993 from 11 Mr. Swan to Mr. Gagnon and 12 Mr. Vanierson 13 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And then there was a 15 second e-mail, it was dated August 21st, 1995. The -- it 16 -- the number P-259 was reserved for it and it's a three 17 (3)page e-mail from a Mr. Hill to Mr. Doerr -- D-O-E-R-R. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-259: Email dated August 21st, 1995 20 from Mr. Hill to Mr. Doerr, 21 three pages. 22 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. And Mr. 24 Worme is going to deal with the next wasn't, sir. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. DONALD WORME: Morning, Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 5 morning, Mr. Worme. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: The next witness we 7 will call is Robert Antone. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. DONALD WORME: Mr. Antone will 12 affirm. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 14 morning, Mr. Antone. 15 MR. ROBERT ANTONE: Morning. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Antone. 17 I understand that you are going to affirm this morning? 18 MR. ROBERT ANTONE: Yes. 19 THE REGISTRAR: Very good, sir. Could 20 give us your name in full? 21 MR. ROBERT ANTONE: My name is -- my own 22 -- real name is Tayohdhga and my English name is Robert 23 Allan Antone. 24 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 25

1 ROBERT ALLAN ANTONE, Affirmed: 2 3 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 4 Q: Good morning, Mr. Atone. 5 A: Good morning. 6 Q: Mr. Atone, you have a date of birth 7 of March the 12th, 1949 and I take it on Saturday you 8 will be fifty-six (56) years of age? 9 A: That's correct. And I hope everyone 10 here has a chance to celebrate with me. 11 Q: As -- as we did with Mr. George. You 12 are employed as Executive Director at the Kii-kee-wan- 13 kaan healing lodge at the Muncey Delaware First Nation? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: I wonder if you just might tell us a 16 bit about what that is, what your role is there, and how 17 long you have been there? 18 A: My role as the Executive Director is 19 to -- was in the beginning to develop the programs that 20 we initiated there. We run a twenty-four (24) bed 21 facility where we have -- for First Nations or aboriginal 22 people. We have people coming in all over from Ontario 23 and as well as out east. We've had clients from Quebec 24 and the Maritimes and as well as New York and -- and 25 Michigan.

1 Our program is offered to people who are 2 victims of family violence, victims of abuse in -- in 3 their communities, people who are struggling with mental 4 health issues. And we have a staff of about fifteen (15) 5 people, give or take. Our casual staff as well and our 6 relief staff, we can go up to anywheres up to twenty (20) 7 staff at a time. 8 We -- our primary program is a three (3) 9 week program that has proven very successful over the 10 last six (6) years. We have worked with well over 11 fifteen hundred (1,500) people in the last six (6) years 12 and most of them come from the rural Native communities. 13 What else can I tell you? 14 Q: I take it in -- in the course of that 15 program that you would employ traditional methodologies? 16 A: Our -- the primary focus of our 17 program is based on our cultural practices. And we have 18 to be mindful that we service primarily three -- three 19 (3) to four (4) cultures in the area. 20 We service the Haudenosaunee or Ognahome 21 (phonetic) culture, the Anishnabe culture, the Cree 22 culture, as well as Lanopay (phonetic), which are a 23 Delaware culture. But, where -- our focus is in those 24 four (4) primary cultures in the area. 25 We've had people from other cultures, but

1 we find that there are some universal tools that have 2 evolved over the years of -- of healing and -- and the 3 development of mental health programs among First Nations 4 that are universal -- there's universal practices that 5 seem to work quite successfully with many of our people. 6 Q: And they can transcend the -- the 7 different cultures that you've -- 8 A: Yes, they can. 9 Q: -- referred to? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you, sir, are a member of the 12 Oneida of the Thames First Nation? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And a member of the Oneida Longhouse? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: We've had occasion here yesterday to 17 hear from Mr. Bruce Elijah a little bit in respect to -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: -- the Longhouse. And one of the 20 things that he had told us is that you -- you sit on the 21 opposite side of the house? 22 A: Hmm hmm. I sit on the better side of 23 the house. 24 Q: I see. We'll -- we'll have to ask 25 him that. And I wonder if you might take a moment, even

1 in a general sense, Mr. Antone, if you could tell us a 2 little bit about that governing structure of the Oneida 3 Nation, the organization that is -- 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: -- of the Oneida Longhouse? 6 A: Well -- well, there is -- trying to 7 condense a few thousand years of history, but the -- the 8 longhouse structure is based on three (3) clans, that was 9 instituted probably -- we estimate well over fifteen 10 hundred (1,500) years ago according to our history. 11 And the three (3) clans were structured -- 12 were -- were in the divisions of authority and the -- the 13 political institution, and the organization of our 14 society was developed by the person we -- we refer to as 15 a peacemaker. And he brought those teachings to us and 16 he helped organize our -- our society at that time, as 17 well as all -- all the Iroquois communities. 18 You have to remember that we are -- even 19 though we are a separate Nation, we are directly 20 connected to all of the five (5) Nations, or today the 21 six (6) Nations. The Mohawk, who are the eastern door 22 keepers of -- of the confederacy; we are next door to 23 them. 24 And -- and then we set our regional 25 territories is between -- is in-between the Mohawk and

1 the Onondaga Nation. And - and then west of the Onondaga 2 territory is Acuwga (phonetic), and then the Senecas. 3 And the Senecas are -- are viewed as the western 4 doorkeepers. 5 And around 1716, 17 -- between 1716 and 6 1734 the Tuscaroras became a member -- a formalized 7 member nation of the -- of the Iroquois confederacy. 8 Oftentimes it's -- we refer to ourselves 9 as the Five (5) Nations, but from 1734 we're supposed to 10 -- it takes a long time to get used to saying it, but we 11 are the Six (6) Nations. And -- in our term we asked 12 people to call us the Haudenosaunee, which is the People 13 of the Longhouse or the People Who Build Longhouses. 14 So, within the site of our structure, we 15 have our house, we say is -- is divided in half, meaning 16 that on one (1) side of the house the Wolf clan sits -- 17 the three (3) families of the Wolf clan and on the other 18 side of the house is the three (3) clan -- the three (3) 19 families of the Bear clan and the three (3) clans -- or 20 the three (3) clan families of the Turtle clan. I sit in 21 the Turtle clan. 22 And the reason why our house was divided 23 is so that we could take care of each other, primarily as 24 -- when it was originally structured that way, it was to 25 take care of the times when our families were suffering

1 from grief from the loss of their loved ones and -- and 2 that was -- that was when the house was originally set up 3 that way. 4 And -- and why it was set up that way was 5 to -- so that we could -- when a, say a clan member in - 6 - in the Wolf clan passes on, the other two (2) clans are 7 there to help that family. They say when a family is 8 grieving, they are to do nothing but grieve and -- so 9 that they can take care of themselves, their spiritual 10 well-being during that time. So, the other clans do all 11 the cooking and do all the caring of that family and 12 that. 13 So, that practice is still going on today. 14 So, that was the original reason for the clan system as 15 well as to help organize our society. 16 When the Peacekeeper came, he helped us 17 put leadership inside of those clans and so we have nine 18 (9) designated chiefs -- if you want to call them in the 19 English language -- they're referred to as chiefs. 20 They -- in our -- in our language when you 21 actually translate it, it really means they are more like 22 pathmakers. And -- and what that refers to is that they 23 are to provide guidance and direction for their clan and 24 they are the voice of each of the clans of the -- of the 25 extended families.

1 So, we still practise that today. I mean, 2 that's been a -- that was our form of government before 3 contact. It remained our form of government until 1934 4 when the Canadian Government imposed the elective system 5 under the Indian Act on our community. And at that time 6 they were -- it was forced upon us by the Department of 7 Indian Affairs and the -- and, of course, they used the 8 RCMP during that time and to -- to force that form of 9 government on our -- on our community. 10 Our government remains -- still remains 11 intact. We still continue to practise what we've always 12 practised and we're continuing to rebuild our nation 13 based on that clan system. 14 So, it's -- it's a functioning government 15 today. If you go into our community we -- true, we do 16 have the Band Council System in our community, but we 17 also have the chieftainship of our original government 18 and they work hand in hand in many cases on particular 19 issues that are going on in our community today. 20 I have been -- been burdened, I guess is 21 the best way I can put it with position of chief of one 22 (1) of the Turtle -- one (1) of the Turtle clan families. 23 And it's a -- the reason why I say it's a burden because 24 it's -- you're given it for a lifetime unless you really 25 mess up. And -- and I have sat as -- over the years for

1 -- in 19 -- around 1972, I was asked to be a faith keeper 2 in -- in the long house, which I continue to serve as and 3 that is another responsibility because our society is 4 highly organized in that way. 5 The faithkeeper is responsible to ensure 6 that our ceremonies and the people are taken care of and 7 so we continue to practise that. 8 All of other clan families do have 9 designated both male and female faithkeepers that are 10 responsible to continue on -- to continue the practices 11 of the clans. 12 In addition to that, in 1982 we had what 13 we all a condolence ceremony or the raising of chiefs in 14 1982, and at that time, I was placed as a sub-chief or an 15 assistant to the principle chief in my family -- extended 16 family clan. 17 And so I served that position until about 18 -- I believe it was about 1994, which is about ten (10) 19 years ago or eleven (11) years ago and then the chief in 20 my family, that extended family, passed away and I have 21 been sitting in that position since that time, for about 22 eleven (11) years. 23 And I continue to serve as a -- 24 representing my extended family in the clan meetings and 25 -- and I represent the Nation, overall, too when I'm

1 asked to do that. 2 In fact, this past weekend, we just had a 3 Nation meeting and we had delegates come from -- from 4 Wisconsin. We have sister communities in Wisconsin and 5 New York and those communities send delegates to a 6 meeting that we held here in our longhouse here. 7 Our longhouse here is considered today the 8 central fire of the Oneida nation and it's here that most 9 of the chiefs live. 10 We have some chiefs living in other 11 territories as well and they continue to come to meetings 12 here. We have some major issues confronting our nation, 13 so we continue to meet on those issues on a regular 14 basis. 15 And I -- I hope that kind of answers your 16 question. 17 Q: It does, thank you. In addition to 18 what I'm -- to the -- to the traditional education which 19 I'm assuming that you would have undertaken in order to 20 fulfil your role as a member of the Oneida Longhouse as 21 well as the other roles of faithkeeper that -- 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: -- you also described, you've also 24 had some western academic experience and I wonder if just 25 might take a moment to tell us about that.

1 A: Well, I was -- I graduated out of 2 Fanshawe College as a social service worker back in -- 3 basically it doesn't matter, you already know how old I 4 am, back around 1971 and -- and following that I -- I did 5 attend a native -- well, it's called a native American 6 studies program at the State University of New York in 7 Buffalo. 8 I was recruited by -- actually Senecas, 9 who were running that program at the time to go there and 10 -- as a student and also to begin doing some teaching; I 11 think it was in my third year I did some teaching there 12 as well. 13 And then in -- and more recently I have 14 been doing online schooling in leadership and management 15 with the University of Phoenix. I've been doing some of 16 that program, as well. 17 So I -- I always says that the -- there's 18 something new to learn every day. So, I continue to 19 pursue my educational career as -- as well, you know. 20 And I find that -- one of the things -- 21 the reason why I guess I pursue those kinds of studies, I 22 always look for areas to look at because you're always -- 23 we are always trying to understand one (1) thing, western 24 society and because there's -- there still remains a huge 25 conflict between western society and -- and our -- and

1 our society, our native society or our native 2 communities. 3 Our native nations are -- are still in -- 4 are still treated to me in -- in this day and age as 5 second class citizens. And why a society does that to 6 the original inhabitants and the caretakers of this land, 7 why they continue to do that is -- I always trying to 8 find the answer why and -- and so your pursue and try to 9 understand western society. 10 And many of the courses I take are trying 11 to understand western philosophy and why they kind of 12 direct their people or have schooled their people into be 13 a -- being oppressors of minorities, so that's -- 14 Q: So, you -- yeah. So, you see 15 education as -- as having a role in terms of bettering 16 things, if I can put it that way? 17 A: Oh yeah, definitely. I think that -- 18 I've been involved in the last, prob -- I think it's 19 about fifteen (15) or sixteen (16) years now, as -- as an 20 educator with First Nations Technical Institute out of 21 Tyendingaga, which is a Mohawk community east of 22 Belleville and they run a -- a Native college. 23 They have articulation agreements with 24 surrounding colleges like Loyalist College, St. Lawrence 25 College, Ryerson University, the First Nations University

1 out in Saskatchewan, and some of those programs, I have 2 been an instructor at some of those programs and -- and I 3 continue to do that. 4 And but one of the things that we're 5 attempting to do there is -- is to use education as a 6 tool of revitalizing and enhancing our cultures and -- 7 and we continue to do that today. I think that we -- 8 education is -- is really important to our people, but 9 we also have to find ways to -- to own our own education 10 system, and that's what we're attempting to do. 11 And -- because if we own the knowledge and 12 we can transfer and tell our story, then it makes a great 13 deal of difference in terms of the -- of the impact it 14 has on -- on the people, our people, particularly, in our 15 communities. 16 Q: Mr. Antone, you have been trained as 17 a negotiator and you have training in crisis management 18 and conflict resolution. I wonder if you would tell us 19 about that, please? 20 A: Well, certainly, I think -- I always 21 refer to my -- my best teacher in conflict resolution was 22 an old man who was -- who was actually the chief in a 23 position in my extended family, and -- and his English 24 name was Demus Elm. And when he passed away he was over 25 a hundred (100) years old.

1 And he grew up during -- all this time he 2 grew up -- he was born in 19 -- in the late 1980's -- or 3 1880's. And -- and I had the good fortune of being a 4 student of his during the 1970's. 5 And -- and he's the one that not only 6 taught me about the confederacy and about our teachings, 7 but was probably the most living example of those 8 teachings. And he was certainly -- had acquired what we 9 call Skanon or the ability to -- to be at peace with 10 himself and with the world around him. 11 And even though he knew all of this 12 history and all of the things that have happened to our 13 people, he was able to achieve that. And I think that 14 one (1) of the things that he used to always remind -- 15 remind us of was to -- was to learn how to achieve that, 16 which is a very powerful gift, you know, for anyone to 17 have, particularly when you're dealing with the kinds of 18 situations we've seen over the years. 19 Because if you can't achieve the peace 20 within yourself, it's -- it's impossible to achieve it 21 outside of yourself. And when you look at Kanesatake, 22 the Oka crisis, those kinds of situations, Kayeagiah, the 23 occupation of land in New York State, many of the 24 protests and demonstrations that have gone on over the 25 years, if you cannot achieve that state of peace inside

1 of yourself during those kinds of incidences, then you 2 are unable to achieve a harmony with -- with a group of 3 people. 4 And so that's one -- one of -- probably 5 the first lessons in terms of being a peacemaker or being 6 a negotiator that I find that comes from our cultural 7 teachings and -- and he was a -- he was a great believer 8 in -- in achieving that. It was -- it was like, in a 9 way, a form of meditation in the most busiest times to be 10 able to achieve that level of confidence, that level of 11 serenity within oneself during those -- during those 12 particular times. 13 The other things that I think -- what I 14 have done is that over the years I've attended a lot of 15 different workshops. I can't even remember some of them. 16 I went to some in Toronto, some in London, some over in 17 the States and those were -- you know, most of them were 18 private companies that were -- were doing conflict 19 resolution, alternative dispute resolution, crisis 20 management; skills, knowledge in those areas. 21 I also probably have an extensive library 22 on the material as well. I probably have, in my own 23 home, probably well over three (3) thousand books in my 24 own -- I mean my own personal library and certainly a 25 good section of that is in -- is in peacemaking and

1 conflict resolution. 2 Also, I think when you observe situations, 3 I think -- I think most of it comes from life experience 4 as well. And I think that one (1) of the most 5 interesting things that -- that -- that I did observe was 6 the -- was the elections in Guyana down in -- I went down 7 with Ed Broadbent in -- in the Jimmy Centre and -- and I 8 was asked to go as -- as an observer down there. 9 And -- and you go down there and you see 10 that kind of situation where it's a life and death 11 situation, where your people are -- are given a -- are 12 trying to have -- exercise democracy in a -- otherwise 13 very hostile environment and -- and you learn from the 14 best. And certainly that -- that experience gave me a 15 lot of skill, you know, around -- and a lot of knowledge 16 around conflict resolution. 17 So, those kinds of life experiences 18 certainly have contributed to my personal development. 19 And I -- I've been -- I would say that overall, the work 20 that we've been able to accomplish over the years have -- 21 have been successful. 22 We certainly don't -- how would you say 23 it, we don't -- we don't market our skills, I guess, 24 like a -- like a company, but I think that when you -- 25 because the way our nation is structured and the way the

1 confederacy is structured that over the years I've had -- 2 I've engaged in -- in a lot of different activities that 3 stretch across our territory. 4 So, one (1) of the -- one (1) of the 5 things that makes a negotiator successful is if you have 6 respect for the people and if you have respect from the 7 people. 8 And one (1) of the things that -- that the 9 old man -- I go back to that teacher again, because 10 that's one (1) of the things he talked about is that in 11 order to gain that -- that inner peace, one has to be 12 able to have respect for yourself and for your people. 13 And -- and if you do that and you go out there and do 14 your very best and you work for the people, you will in - 15 - in engage their confidence in you. 16 So, when you're -- when you're out there, 17 I know that lot of people have asked me, Well, you know, 18 why were you asked to go to Oka? Why -- why wasn't 19 somebody else? 20 And I think that the bottomline is that it 21 really comes down to is that I have worked with a lot of 22 people over the years in -- in the mental health and 23 social work -- social service field and as a result of 24 that I worked among the Mohawk people over the years and 25 -- and it's out of that respect of that work that they

1 called me in 1990. And -- and they says -- and I've had 2 individuals tell me that we have confidence in what -- in 3 your work. 4 And -- and I -- and I -- and I told him, I 5 says, Well, I don't want to be here. You know, this is 6 not the place I want to spend my summer and -- in 1990, 7 but certainly it was, you know. 8 And it was because people had asked me, 9 and it is my obligation as -- not only as a human being, 10 but as -- as a chief in my nation and in my clan, it is 11 my obligation to do the very best for my people. And my 12 people are not only Oneida people, but they are 13 Haudenosaunee and they are Anishnaabeg, too, as well. 14 You know, so, when you look at the -- look 15 across the board, in a traditional way, it is our 16 teachings that we are obligated when we take on the -- 17 when we are placed in these positions we are obligated to 18 fulfil that whenever we are asked to -- to come out and 19 work with people. 20 That's why I say it is a burden that I 21 would gladly retire from. 22 Q: And one that you aren't able to, I 23 take it? Unless -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- as you say, certain --

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- certain things -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- were to happen. 5 A: I could probably do that if I -- if I 6 went out and made a big mistake someplace. 7 Q: We're -- given your background, your 8 training, your experience, is it fair to -- to refer to 9 you as a peacekeeper or do you refer to yourself as a 10 peacekeeper? 11 A: I guess that would be fair to say 12 that. I think being a peacekeeper, I guess, is the best 13 way to say that. I know in -- in my -- in my clan and 14 we've -- I think I'm -- how would you say -- I'm -- I'm 15 trying to -- I'm trying to find a proper way of saying 16 these things which I find, you know, like in these 17 Inquiries, in this kind of process you always have to 18 remind yourself of your own humility and -- and -- 19 because you have these kinds of questions. 20 And when you're -- when you're directing 21 about what I can do or can't do or where I see myself of 22 what I call myself is really a -- forces one to really 23 look at one's ego and we don't -- we're encouraged not to 24 do that. You know, we're encouraged to always exercise 25 our humility and would people refer to me as a

1 peacemaker, I don't know. 2 Is it fair to call me, myself that? Maybe 3 in some instances I am. I would say that I'm a fair 4 negotiator, I'm a fair mediator. I say -- I think I can 5 listen to two (2) sides of a story or probably ten (10) 6 sides of a story and come up with a solution. You know, 7 I think I'm fair in that way. 8 Whether I'm a good peacemaker, I don't 9 know. Only the -- I think there are people out there who 10 have been -- certainly I think if you went and asked some 11 Mohawk people, there would be some out there who would 12 say, Yeah, you did an excellent job and there are some 13 out there that said, no, you never. 14 But, I can tell you there are some people 15 out there who are very grateful, because if I didn't get 16 involved, they said, their husbands would probably not be 17 here today, because they were willing to sacrifice their 18 lives for their cause. And it was only through the 19 intense process of finding a solution there that no --no 20 more deaths took place during -- during 1990. 21 And that was our primary objective, was -- 22 was to ensure that there was no more loss of life. And 23 when I look at this particular incident, and I look at 24 the fact that -- that I was involved here trying to talk 25 to the military prior to the event, prior to Dudley

1 George being murdered here, prior to that, and I ask 2 myself, am I a good peacekeeper? I would say, probably 3 not, because we lost someone. We lost a life here. 4 And -- and I -- I look at it and I say, 5 well, if I was more involved here, and had -- had an 6 opportunity to say more things or do more things, maybe 7 this -- maybe it wouldn't have happened, I don't know. 8 But certainly, I mean, we had at that 9 time, a good relationship with the -- with the military, 10 we were developing that. Did we have one with the OPP at 11 -- prior to the incident? No, we didn't. 12 And -- and I think that it -- that it's 13 unfortunate that we lost someone during that situation. 14 Q: I want to turn to that -- to the 15 situation that you referred to, but just before we get 16 there I understand that you had some awareness of the 17 dispute with respect to Stoney Point? 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: And how did you come about that and 20 when was it that you would have first gained an 21 understanding of those circumstances? 22 A: Well my knowledge of Stoney Point 23 goes back to the 1970's. When I -- when I came out of 24 college, one of the things that I came out of college was 25 -- was a -- was really the notion of community organizing

1 and trying to make a difference in our community. 2 But, you know, what's interesting is that, 3 you know, from the 60's to the 70's there was suddenly a 4 change going on in -- in First Nation communities and 5 that change was that we were becoming more and more aware 6 of what -- what had happened to us historically. 7 We have -- the reservation system that was 8 created here in Canada, isolated us in many -- up until 9 probably the 1970's. Where the reservations were a -- 10 were a way to divide our people up and to isolate them 11 and -- and so we -- there wasn't a lot of contact until 12 probably the late 1960's and 70's, even though we had the 13 residential schools and people were -- children were 14 herded up from a lot of different communities and -- put 15 into these centralized residential schools and there was 16 some contact through that. 17 But, by and large, the reservation system 18 was a -- was a way to isolate our people. 19 So, coming out of the 1970's into the 20 1970's I became more and more aware of that. There was 21 actually material starting to be published by First 22 Nation people and there was a newspapers were starting up 23 and we were getting more and more aware of what was 24 happening to our people. 25 So, coming -- and I became more and more

1 aware of the community up here and I started travelling 2 around to a lot of different communities in southern 3 Ontario and of course, over the year. You know, there 4 was a few people from college that I had met, somebody 5 from Sarnia, I believe there might have been someone from 6 Kettle Point, too. 7 And so we got a -- you get that kind of 8 connection with people. So I came up here and for some 9 reason, I ended up meeting with -- with one of the elders 10 up here at that time. Maybe we just had gone over for 11 tea and her name was Gladys Lunheim. 12 And I remember her and -- and she started 13 telling this whole story, you know, about Stoney Point 14 and this was like in -- probably around '74, something 15 like that. 16 And she -- and she was telling me all this 17 stuff and she even had a document about -- that showed 18 the -- when they -- when they expropriated this land and 19 they took -- and then she told a story about what 20 happened and how they came in here and they bulldozed 21 down their houses and just run them off, you know, like 22 run them out of here. 23 And -- and she was just a child at that 24 time. And -- and -- and she would tell that story with - 25 - with tears in her eyes.

1 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 A: I have to take a few minutes here. 5 Q: No, certainly. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: I take it, Mr. Antone, that after the 10 -- well, let me ask you this, before the occupation of 11 the Army camp, did you have any connection with the 12 people of Stoney Point? 13 A: With -- yeah, I mean from that time 14 on, you know, after I had learned that story about what 15 happened here, at that -- I was the Executive Director of 16 -- of the N'Amerind Friendship Centre at the time. 17 And -- and we also had -- we had -- we 18 were publishing a small newsletter at the time called 19 Tribal Indian News and -- and we had -- I took all of 20 this information that I got and the story from Gladys and 21 I had published it, talking about, you know, what had 22 happened here and it was -- it was -- to me it was the 23 most appalling story I ever heard about how our people 24 were treated, and hearing the fact that some of their men 25 from here had joined the Army, had gone over and fought

1 the war and when they come -- came home, their -- their 2 homes were gone, you know. 3 And -- and when you think about that, 4 that's appalling, you know, and that's -- and that a 5 country would do that to a people. 6 And -- and here is a -- to me it was 7 really just a blatant evidence of the racism that exists 8 in this country and the racist policies and institutions 9 that -- that during that period of time, that denigrated 10 our people, marginalised our people and continue to be 11 instruments today that continue to do that. 12 And so in -- and I continued to stay in 13 contact with the people here. I have a lot of friends 14 from here. And -- and so -- and even at one (1) point 15 during that time one of the men from -- from Kettle Point 16 gave me a tour of the -- of the Stoney Point area, back 17 in the 70's. 18 And we went back to the lakes and the in- 19 lakes there, and -- and just looked at the -- looked at 20 the area and I was -- I was saying, Man, this is amazing 21 that, I says, I can see why they took it away from you, 22 you know, this is a beautiful place, you know, and I 23 says, you've got to do something about it, you know. 24 And -- and, of course, it wasn't until 25 years later, you know, that we heard that, you know, you

1 heard in the news that, you know, that there was some 2 actions taken around Court actions and attempts to -- to 3 get the land back, you know. And so I've always stayed 4 in -- stayed in touch with the whole issue. 5 Q: And I take it that sometime after the 6 occupation of the -- of the ranges in May of 1993, that 7 you would have heard about that? 8 A: Oh yeah. Yeah. I -- I heard when 9 they did to that, and I says, Way to go. 10 Q: Did you have any advance knowledge 11 that that was going to happen? 12 A: No. No. I -- I wasn't party to 13 that, to them going into -- when they were -- when they 14 occupied the range area. But, when I did hear about it, 15 I says, I -- I knew I think, you know, deep -- deep down 16 and I always felt that -- that someone was going to do 17 something at some point because -- just because of the 18 sheer atrocity of the whole situation, you know. So, I 19 knew that they were going to -- they were going to do 20 something. 21 And -- and then I never got actually 22 involved with it until -- until the day that I got a call 23 to come and do some sensitivity work with the -- or 24 sensitization with the Military. 25 Q: Okay. And you were contacted by whom

1 and when? 2 A: I was thinking about that the other 3 day. It was actually a lady, Anishnabe Kwe, Ojibway 4 woman from -- who was actually from Saugine, who worked 5 for the Provincial Government in Toronto, her name was 6 Priscilla George, she was the one that actually contacted 7 me. She says -- she called me and she says, You know, 8 she says, I just got a call, I don't know who from, from 9 the Department of Defence or somebody, asking if they 10 knew any facilitators around who could go and do some 11 sensitization work with the Military at -- at Ipperwash. 12 And she said, Would you like -- would you 13 like to help do that. I says, Well that sounds 14 interesting. And, I says, And it's just down the road 15 from -- from my home. So, I says, Yeah I wouldn't mind 16 doing that. 17 So, it was arranged and -- and I can't 18 remember whether it was the Captain that called us 19 eventually and then we came in and arranged the dates and 20 -- to come in and do that. 21 Q: When you mention Captain, do you 22 recall his name? 23 A: I believe it was Smith. 24 Q: All right. We've had other -- other 25 evidence that the date of that training was July the 12th

1 and 13th, 1995? 2 A: Yeah. That would be -- probably be - 3 - I knew it was the summertime. 4 Q: And can you tell us what your role 5 was in this training and what the -- what the nature of 6 the training was, what the outcomes were, what the 7 objectives were? 8 A: I was trying to -- after thinking 9 about it, when I knew I was coming here, I was trying to 10 remember exactly what it was. And I think one of -- I -- 11 a bit of the conversation was around that the -- the 12 Military at the time the -- the men that were actually 13 stationed there, they were getting more and more agitated 14 or uncomfortable with the Stoney Point -- Point people 15 living in the -- in the range area. They had now -- I 16 think they had been there for about three (3) years and 17 they weren't going away, you know. 18 They figured, well, once winter came 19 they'd all leave and be gone and that never happened, you 20 know, and so they -- so they were getting more and more 21 uncomfortable. And I guess there was -- at that time 22 there was -- there was bit of badgering that was going 23 on, too, you know, between -- between some of the 24 soldiers and some of the men from -- from Stoney Point. 25 And so our objective was, you know, when

1 they came in was -- when he call us -- cultural 2 sensitization is really -- is about helping people 3 understand your culture, understand your way of -- way of 4 thinking or understand your world view. 5 And that was our intent was to come in and 6 -- and help the Military -- the soldiers there that were 7 in the field at that time to help understand what the 8 situation was about because obviously they had their own 9 -- their own perspective of it, you know. 10 And I guess they wanted to know -- they 11 didn't understand that there are -- there are some deeply 12 rooted feelings and -- and attitudes and beliefs around - 13 - around why that is still Stoney Point land and why the 14 people still believe that and -- and what is -- what is 15 the cultural view, you know, the -- the diversity of 16 culture and the -- the dynamics that were going on at the 17 time. How can we understand that better and if we 18 understand it better, how can it build -- can we build a 19 relationship? 20 And in the end, that was -- that was 21 objective was to try and build a relationship between the 22 Stoney Point people that were occupying the range and the 23 Military. Is that possible to do? And we'll say, Well, 24 yeah, you know, and -- and maybe some of the -- some of 25 the people could sit down and talk about the situation

1 because they have to co-exist in what is termed as the 2 Stoney -- as the Stoney Point area. 3 So, when we came in, we did the 4 sensitization. We -- we explained to them the history 5 from our perspective of what happened to our people here 6 in North America and certainly they didn't have any 7 knowledge of that. 8 And from our perspective, it's important, 9 I think, in a sensitization process to understand how 10 that -- how the invasion of North America, how it impacts 11 the -- the makeup, the characteristic, the -- the dynamic 12 of the Anishnaabeg person or the Ongwahonay person; how 13 it impacts that person, and how it causes certain 14 attitudes and beliefs about society. And -- and the fact 15 that I mean, overall, I mean the number one (1) factor is 16 that it destroys the ability to -- to have any trust 17 between cultures, when you look at that history. 18 People say, Well, why don't you trust the 19 White Man? I say, Why should I? Tell us -- show me one 20 (1) treaty that wasn't broken. You know, show me one (1) 21 agreement that wasn't broken and -- and that's evidence 22 enough right there why you don't trust the White Man, you 23 know, and -- and that's a reality in our communities. 24 You know, when you look at -- you look at 25 this whole situation, I mean, it's a -- it's a blatant --

1 blatant reality, you know, when -- when somebody can come 2 in and expropriate your -- your whole reservation and 3 turn it into a -- a -- a bombing range or a gunning range 4 or a military base. I mean, what kind of integrity is 5 that of -- of that society, you know? 6 When you look at those kind of incidences 7 and the way our people were treated historically, there - 8 - there is -- there is not much to trust about Canadian 9 society in terms of Indian rights or our Native rights or 10 aboriginal rights, you know? 11 I mean, they are constantly, whether it's 12 the Court system or the Government, constantly attempting 13 to chip away at our rights, you know, and -- and they're 14 continuing to do that today? How many -- how many cases 15 are in Court today concerning our rights, you know? And 16 they continue to try and manipulate that system to -- to 17 reduce our rights. 18 In fact, you know, I mean even the 19 constitutional process was a way to reduce our rights. 20 You know, and you look at Section 35 of the constitution 21 and does it afford us our full right as aboriginal 22 people? No, it doesn't, you know. 23 And they -- they went through that whole 24 conversing process to try and limit our capacity to limit 25 our ability to exercise our rights as indigenous people

1 of this Country. 2 So, yeah, there's -- in that process of 3 trying to de -- sensitize the military, they had to 4 understand our view and where we were coming from as 5 indigenous people, you know, and how that was -- how that 6 sets within us a certain attitude, a certain belief about 7 what is -- what is real here, you know. And as a -- can 8 we build a trust process between two (2) parties. 9 When you look at that situation and you 10 try to get the best measure of trust between two (2) -- 11 between a aboriginal or an indigenous party and the 12 Military, you try to build the best trust factor there, 13 even to a point where at least they can share on a daily 14 basis, what is going on. And that was the intent of that 15 process to try and build that. 16 Were we coming to that? I mean, we did 17 have meetings with the Stoney Point people shortly after 18 the training and we were talking to them about, Well, can 19 you sit down with the captain, is it possible to -- to 20 try and work out some arrangements around this co- 21 existence in this territory. There was -- that 22 discussion was going on and we were kind of the mediators 23 of that process, Bruce and myself. 24 So, the -- the most important thing was, 25 one (1) is that they were -- what I remember was that the

1 Military was concerned that their men were getting too 2 agitated to remain and in control of their emotional -- 3 in the field, you know. 4 So, that was -- that was their concern, 5 because they were getting -- because I guess they were 6 around there, I mean, there's always the -- the usual 7 stuff there. There's a lot of racism -- racist kind of 8 statements that -- that the men were making about the 9 Stoney Point people. 10 And so there was -- there was -- they were 11 concerned that -- that they might lose control out there 12 and that was -- and that was one of the reasons why we -- 13 that they were having this sensitization process so that 14 they could -- so that -- so that a situation wouldn't 15 escalate between the military and the Stoney Point 16 people. 17 And so in that process I think that we 18 were very -- I think we were successful in helping people 19 understand the perspective that we have as indigenous 20 people around relationships, treaties, the dynamics of -- 21 between western society and indigenous society; what is 22 the dynamics between those two (2), you know. And I -- 23 and I think we were successful in helping them understand 24 what those were. 25 And in a way, help -- it kind of set in

1 motion, I guess, the eventual decision for them to -- to 2 vacate. 3 Q: All right. And having dealt with the 4 relationship aspect and the sensitization as you put it, 5 do you recall other topics of discussion; for example, 6 the issue about unexploded ordinances and the 7 decommissioning of the army base? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Do you recall that that -- as that 10 being a -- 11 A: Yeah -- 12 Q: -- an issue as well? 13 A: Yeah, there was some discussion 14 around that; that that was one of the -- that was one of 15 their main concerns was that -- that there was unexploded 16 ordinances out there and that they had to continue to 17 secure the area because of that. 18 And I know we understood that, and -- and 19 we said, Well, what is the process? I mean, here you had 20 the Prime Minister just before that, announcing that they 21 were returning the land. 22 I mean, when were they going to do that? 23 What was the process? You know. When were they going to 24 institute a system to make that happen? 25 Of course that, you know, when you're

43
  1  dealing with a -- a Captain at -- at that rank and, you
  2  know, in the field down there, they don't have those
  3  kinds of answers.
  4                 Q:   Okay.
  5                 A:   And there was a disconnection between
  6  what was -- what the public was hearing and what was
  7  happening in the field there, you know.
  8                 So ,I think that -- that there was a lot
  9  of politicizing of the -- of the issue in the surrounding
 10  -- with all the parties that were involved with the
 11  situation.  I think that really didn't allow for any
 12  rapid movement and change in -- in the status of -- of
 13  the land.  And, as we know today, I mean, the land is
 14  still, I believe, under DND, is it not?
 15                 And so there really has never been a -- a
 16  real official transfer yet, even though it was announced
 17  years ago.
 18                 Q:   Was there a discussion at that time
 19  as well, Mr. Antone, about when reversion would occur,
 20  that is when the land would be returned?
 21                 A:   No one knew, you know.  Certainly at
 22  that level of the Military, they didn't know anything
 23  about that. They -- they knew that -- I think my sense is
 24  of it is that they always felt that announcement by the
 25  Government saying that they were going to return the

1 land, put them in a position of jeopardy, you know. 2 Because here, I mean, you've got Native 3 people that are saying, Give me back my land, and they're 4 ready to take the land, and they're having to say, Well, 5 you know, stop, woa, just a minute here, you know, and -- 6 and you've got the Prime Minister saying, Let's give the 7 land back, you know. It -- it created a -- it 8 jeopardized the whole situation. 9 Q: And it was your view that -- that 10 this cross-cultural awareness training that was invited 11 by Captain Smith, that there was a -- a degree of success 12 on that? 13 A: Oh yeah, I would say so. Because I 14 think that, from what I heard before that, well, before 15 there was actual -- the Stoney Point people moved into 16 the -- the main Base, there was a reduction in -- in the 17 incidences that happened between the Stoney Point people 18 and the men that were patrolling the area, you know. 19 That was reduced, you know, in terms of -- 20 I guess there was, like, name calling and, you know, and 21 stuff like that that was going on. And there was always 22 some fear that, you know, something would happen, you 23 know. 24 And I guess there was a reduction in that, 25 you know. People started to calm down, there was less,

1 from what the Captain was saying, there was less -- less 2 intensity, reduced the intensity of the -- of the men on 3 the Base. 4 Q: All right. You've talked about 5 before the people moved onto the main Base and you've 6 also told us, Mr. Antone, that your role as a mediator, 7 that you had various meetings with the Stoney Point 8 group? 9 A: During that time? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: Yeah. Well -- 12 Q: And in those various meetings did you 13 have discussions with the people on the ranges, with the 14 -- with the occupiers of their intentions with respect to 15 the Base, that is the built-up area? 16 A: You mean about whether or not they 17 were going to take it over or -- 18 Q: Sure. 19 A: No. In fact, when -- when that did 20 happen it really surprised me. Because I think it was 21 late afternoon when Captain -- when Captain Smith called 22 -- called me and -- and said, Something's going on here, 23 you know. And so -- 24 Q: If I can just interrupt you briefly. 25 The -- do you recall the date that Captain Smith would

1 have called you and provided -- 2 A: No, I can't remember those -- 3 Q: -- this information? 4 A: -- I can't remember that. All I 5 remember is that was when they -- when they moved onto 6 the Base. And so Bruce and I got together and we -- 7 fortunately we were both home at the time, and -- and we 8 got together right away and we came up. 9 Q: When Captain Smith called you, do you 10 recall the nature of the discussion? I appreciate, given 11 the time -- the time that has elapsed since then, that 12 you may not recall the exact words, but do you recall the 13 nature of the discussion? 14 A: All I can say, it was something 15 around, you know, The Stoney Point people are moving onto 16 the Base, we don't know what's going on. And there was - 17 - there was a bit of panic in his voice. I would say a 18 bit of panic, you know, like really -- really -- really 19 concerned. 20 And so we said, Well, we'll come up right 21 away and find out what's going on, you know, and -- 22 Q: So, you and -- you and Mr. Elijah, 23 Bruce Elijah, attended to the Army Base? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And what happens when you arrive?

1 A: Well, when we arrive we -- we parked 2 at the gate area and they let us drive right on if 3 remember right. And the Captain met us there and we 4 talked to him and -- and he gave us sort of a description 5 of what was going on. 6 He says that he had -- all of his men were 7 -- were moved, which would be north of the parade area 8 and over on this side and more towards the gate and the 9 Stoney Point people were in the -- on the southeast end 10 of the Camp area, so they would have over that way. 11 He told us where they were concentrated 12 and -- and asked us if we, you know -- I says, Well, 13 we'll go over and talk to them and find out what's going 14 on. 15 He says that he -- at that point I 16 remember him telling us that he had some semi trucks 17 there and they were loading up whatever valuables that 18 they had or -- that they had in the -- in the buildings 19 and in the area. They were already loading them up by 20 that time. 21 And -- and that he says, We're getting 22 everything out that we -- that is -- that is valuable or 23 whatever and he says then , And we're planning on moving 24 it out of here. He says, I just don't want any -- I 25 don't want any confrontation between his men and the

1 Stoney Point people. 2 Q: What was the -- what was the mood 3 like at -- as between the Stoney Point people and -- and 4 the Military? 5 A: It was -- it was pretty tense there. 6 I was -- I know that the soldiers were -- were staying 7 away. Like, they were staying on this side of the -- of 8 the parade area and -- or on what would be the north -- 9 yeah, the north side, the northwest side of the parade 10 area and the Stoney Point people were -- were in the 11 south part of it, which is along the highway area and 12 they were pretty excited, you know. 13 I mean, they were -- they had -- they said 14 that they were in there. I mean, when we went over there 15 they were all excited, they were -- said they weren't 16 going to leave and they said, I don't -- I don't care 17 what you have to say, you know, we're -- we're not 18 leaving and this is our land and -- and all of that. 19 So, there was a lot of -- there was a lot 20 of excited energy during that. And so we -- we sat -- we 21 tried to get some of the men together and we -- we sat 22 with them and talked to them for probably about an hour 23 and we told them, I says, Well, you know, make sure your 24 -- make sure your people don't start -- start fighting 25 with the soldiers, you know. I says, There's no reason

1 to do that. 2 I mean, you're -- you're in here right 3 now. You know, let's -- let's see if we can work 4 something out with the Captain and, you know, and we were 5 just trying to figure out what to do at that point. 6 Q: The Stoney Point people that you were 7 speaking to, did you advise them that the Captain had 8 indicated to you that they were going to be removing 9 their assets and -- and vacating? 10 A: Yeah, yeah. We told them that they 11 were removing their assets, but we didn't know at that 12 point whether or not they were going to vacate. 13 Q: I see. 14 A: And then, so, after we talked with 15 the Stoney Point people, then we went back over and 16 talked to Captain Smith and talked to him about what was 17 going on, what he thought and -- and we -- and he says, 18 Well, what do you think is going to happen? 19 I says, Well, I said, I don't think 20 they're going to leave. You know, I says, probably the 21 only way you're going to -- the only way they're going to 22 leave is that you're going to have to force them out of 23 here. 24 And -- and he says, Well, I -- he says, I 25 don't want to do that. You know, he said, I don't want

1 to -- I don't want to start a fight, you know. Like, I 2 says -- I says, You're going to -- you're going to have a 3 fight if you try. I says, that's pretty obvious, you 4 know. 5 And so we had -- and so when we were 6 having that discussion around that, I said -- you know, 7 one (1) of the things I mentioned, Well, you know this 8 land's already -- they already said they were going to 9 give it back. Well, why don't you just leave? 10 You know, why start a big fight here? You 11 know, and all it's -- people are just going to get hurt. 12 You know, what are you losing? I mean, you got all your 13 assets loaded up and, you know, let's just -- I mean, 14 we'll stay here, we'll go over and tell them, you know 15 just -- leave you guys alone, you know, get your stuff 16 out of here and we make sure that they don't interfere 17 with what you guys are doing. 18 And -- and so that's basically what it 19 was, was I mean, we ended up being kind of -- to help 20 them to -- help them to move, by keeping the -- the real 21 owners of the land at bay, you know. 22 I guess if you want to call it that, and 23 so we went over and talked to them and we told them, Look 24 it, it looks like they're going to leave. They said, 25 They can't leave until they're ordered to leave.

1 I said, That's the reality. You know, I 2 says -- and the Captain says, Well, he says, I'll call 3 Ottawa and find out what to do. 4 And so he called, I guess, whatever their 5 command post is, I guess, and talked to people there and 6 it wasn't until later that evening that he finally got -- 7 they finally told him to vacate. 8 Q: Up to that point in time, did you 9 have any dealings at all with the Kettle and Stoney Point 10 Band council? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. Now, I expect, Mr. 13 Antone, that -- perhaps before I go there, part of your 14 role as a negotiator, as a mediator would be to 15 facilitate discussion, to facilitate communication -- 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: -- between the two (2) parties and -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: -- from what you've told us, that is 20 what it appears to me, in any event, that you were doing. 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: And anything that would be said on one 23 side, you would repeat to the other party and vice versa. 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: And did you, at -- I expect we may

1 hear some evidence, Mr. Antone, that you had reported to 2 Captain Smith that the Stoney Point group was armed. Do 3 you recall saying anything like that? 4 A: No. No, I would -- they were -- they 5 weren't armed. They were angry, but they weren't armed. 6 Q: You've told us then that Captain 7 Smith received a phone call or had made a phone call and 8 had eventually, ultimately received orders to vacate. 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: Were you present when that happened? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Where you present when the phone call 13 was -- 14 A: No, I wasn't -- 15 Q: -- made? 16 A: He -- he went into the -- they had an 17 office off on the north side of the gate and that's where 18 he had gone in and when he came out, he says, he just 19 said that he had his orders to leave and so they were 20 going to do that. 21 By that time, I believe the semis or the 22 trucks that were loaded down had left and there was just, 23 I think, a few vehicles that they were taking out and so 24 we just tried to help him to make sure that we stayed 25 with him until he walked out of the gate.

1 Because, by this time, the people had -- 2 had moved towards the gate and they were in the gate 3 area, the Stoney Point people, as well as there was 4 people arriving from Kettle Point as well, so there was 5 more and more people gathering there and so -- so I 6 remember that we --Bruce and I both just stayed with the 7 Captain and he was -- he made sure all of his men were 8 out and then he was the last one to get in his vehicle 9 and drive his vehicle out of the gate. 10 And there was -- I mean it was pretty 11 tense, still, at that point, and we just stayed in 12 between him and -- and the Stoney Point people because 13 there was, you know, I mean, they were -- they wanted to 14 argue and they wanted to make their point and we just 15 told them, Why don't you get out of there, it's just -- I 16 says, Don't respond, I says, Just -- just get in your car 17 and leave, you know, and which he eventually did. 18 Q: And do you recall, Mr. Antone, 19 whether at that time there was any discussion as between 20 the Captain or any other authority of the military and 21 anybody with -- among the Stoney Point group as to the 22 maintenance of the infrastructure, water treatment, 23 anything like that at that time? 24 A: No. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And aside from your involvement, as 4 you've just described, on the -- on that occasion, which 5 I'm going to suggest to you is the 29th of July, 1995, 6 did you have a further role to play? 7 A: No. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And once the Stoney Point group was 12 on the base, Mr. Antone, in the built-up area, did you 13 have a role with the -- with the occupiers at all, in 14 terms of providing them advice as to next steps or what 15 to do or what not to do? 16 A: No, I remember just -- just -- we did 17 have a meeting with a few of them, saying, Hey look it, 18 you guys won your case, you got your land back. You 19 know, they're gone, take care of it. You know, take care 20 of what you got. 21 You know, and -- and I think we stayed 22 around visit with them for a little while and then we -- 23 then we left. We didn't stay around too long, though. 24 Probably less than an hour. 25 Q: All right. We understand, Mr.

1 Antone, that one of the outcomes of the cross-cultural 2 awareness training, that had taken place on the 12th and 3 13th of July, was a plan for a further meeting to occur, 4 on or about the 26th of August. 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Do you recall that? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And do you know whether or not, first 9 of all, that that meeting occurred on the 26th of August, 10 1995? 11 A: No, I don't think it did. I think it 12 -- you know, if -- if it continued to go on, I think what 13 our -- if I remember right, I think there was supposed to 14 be like -- we were supposed to meet with the military and 15 then go back and meet with Stoney Point people and 16 eventually, at some point, Kettle Point would have to 17 have been brought into that, process. 18 And -- but it never -- it never occurred, 19 you know. Everything kind of mushroomed after that. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: In terms of any of your discussions, 24 whether prior to this or up to that point, Mr. Antone, do 25 you recall whether you or whether you were in the

1 presence of anyone in term -- in -- where the -- a 2 discussion about the issue of -- of firearms was raised? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: I remember -- what I remember of 7 those -- of some discussions around that was that it was 8 always -- the question was always raised about -- about 9 1990, you know. They knew that we were inside of the 10 treatment centre in Haudenosainee and they knew that 11 there was weapons involved in that situation. 12 And -- and when they had asked -- I 13 remember people asking us about that. I said, well, you 14 know, they had them in 1990, you know. What's -- why 15 can't we have them today, you know? And I says, Well, 16 you know when you think about it, I says, in 1990 they 17 were of little value in 1990. 18 You know, of course, they scare everybody, 19 I says, but I says, you know -- and I remember those 20 kinds of discussions. I says -- I says, I don't support 21 that kind of idea. I says, You're in a -- you're -- 22 you're in a win-win situation right now. I says, You 23 bring weapons into it, you're in a win/lose situation and 24 you're going to be a loser. 25 You know, and I says, I would never

1 support anyone who -- who brought weapons into a 2 situation like that. I says they -- they are only going 3 to jeopardize the cause, you know, and that's always been 4 a point that I've always advocated over the -- over the 5 years, you know, that they only endanger everyone. 6 You know, and they don't do justice to our 7 cause. So if there was any discussion it was a 8 discussion to discourage them even thinking about things 9 like that, but there was certainly no -- no weapons that 10 I ever seen in that -- in the situation there. 11 Q: And do you recall, Mr. Antone, 12 whether among the Stoney Point group, whether there was 13 anybody that shared the sentiments you expressed? 14 A: Did anybody in -- you mean in Stoney 15 Point? 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: Oh yeah, there was -- I would say 18 that the majority of them understood that. You know, I 19 think -- I think a lot of times that kind of talk is -- I 20 call it ego talk. You know, and -- and people have to 21 have that kind of discussion because it -- it -- it's 22 part of the reality, you know. 23 I mean, they're saying, Well all of these 24 -- these people coming at us, they all got guns, you 25 know, and -- and all of that kind of discussions. So

1 it's -- well, it's because they're -- they don't know how 2 to -- how to fight in a good way, you know. And I says 3 that, Our -- our way of life does not -- does not 4 advocate that kind of -- that kind of action. 5 And so I think that -- I think a lot of 6 the people there recognized that. And certainly I -- I 7 would imagine that they did because I've never ever seen 8 anything like -- any kind of weapon used in that respect, 9 hey. 10 You know, I understand that there were 11 hunters in there and -- and they -- they'd go out and go 12 hunting once in awhile. But even then I never even seen 13 that -- those weapons, if they did use, you know, their 14 hunting weapons so. 15 Q: Okay. And given your -- given your 16 advice to them and your -- your discussion to them that 17 you discouraged that sort of thing and what you've told 18 us earlier about your role and your -- and traditional 19 teachings as a peacekeeper -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: -- is that consistent or? 22 A: I would -- I would hope so. I was -- 23 I hope I'm not sounding schizophrenic here, you know, and 24 I would say it's very much consistent. 25 Q: Following this, we have come to

1 understand, Mr. Antone, that in September of 1995, people 2 had moved then from the built-up area an in fact moved to 3 occupy the Ipperwash Provincial Park. 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: And I take it that you became aware 6 of that at some point? 7 A: Yeah. I think I was -- I was trying 8 to find my planner for that year but I think I already -- 9 it was already -- it's already been lost, and -- but I 10 believe I was out of town during that -- during that 11 time. And I remember being called from someplace that 12 this was occurring. 13 And -- and in fact I -- I think that they 14 were there probably three (3) or four (4) days before the 15 actual incident happened, hey. And, but I think most of 16 the -- of the information that I became about it was 17 after the incident, where I talked to people about, you 18 know -- you know, What real -- what happened, you know, 19 What occurred, you know, How come. And -- and so people 20 were telling me after. But I wasn't -- wasn't aware that 21 they were going to do that. 22 But I certainly when they -- when there 23 was trouble I -- they did call me and I came up after 24 that. 25 Q: And when you say, they called you,

1 who would that be? 2 A: You know, I -- I can't remember who 3 it was but I know there was a message on my machine at 4 the time saying that -- it was a very excited message, 5 that -- that's somebody's been shot, you know, there's, 6 you know, there's all, like, basically all hell breaking 7 loose up in Ipperwash, you know. 8 And so I -- I tried to find Bruce and -- 9 and I know that -- that day I -- I couldn't find him that 10 day and I -- I just came up at that time. 11 Q: Okay. Now, during the -- during the 12 summer, leading up to this event, had you heard any 13 discussion among the people in occupation of -- of Camp 14 Ipperwash as to their intentions with respect to the 15 Park? 16 A: You know, I can't honestly say 17 whether it was before or after what I -- what I heard, 18 you know. Well, I mean, it was always what I heard, 19 whether they were going to occupy it or not, I didn't 20 know, but I all -- but I -- what I did hear before and 21 what I've heard probably years before that was that the 22 area was a burial ground, you know. And -- and people 23 were always upset that it became a, you know, a park, you 24 know. 25 And -- and I says, Well, I says, You know,

1 I -- I mean, it's no different from -- I says, That 2 society doesn't have much respect for our -- for our 3 people who are living, let alone our people who have 4 died, you know, and are buried. 5 I says, You take a look at Haudenosainee, 6 I mean, the whole incident in Oka, they were planning on 7 bulldozing the graveyard there, you know, and turning it 8 -- and extending their golf course, that's what the whole 9 incident was about. 10 That's what the whole incident was about 11 there. They wanted to turn the grave yard into a golf 12 course, you know, and -- and I says, When you have a 13 society that has that much disrespect for our people, you 14 know, I says, What -- what do you expect? You know, so I 15 know that the Stoney Point people are -- that area was 16 always viewed as a -- as a burial ground and a -- and a 17 sacred area, you know. 18 So, it didn't surprise me, you know, when 19 I actually -- when they -- when they did occupy it, it 20 didn't surprise me, you know. 21 And I thought they -- I thought they did - 22 - and I don't know whether it was really -- sometimes you 23 know, you wonder -- I wonder sometimes whether it was 24 really an organized effort, because -- because when you 25 look at what happened, when they -- they were up there --

1 they were up there having a picnic and they were having a 2 picnic there because the weather was nice and all the 3 campers were gone home. They had already closed the 4 Park, you know. 5 And, so they were having a -- they went up 6 there and had a -- had a picnic up there. They had -- it 7 was a beautiful place, too, as well. So, you know, so, 8 they were up there enjoying the area and -- and then it 9 mushroomed into this whole incident. 10 Q: I take it that this is something you 11 learned? You've just advised us that you arrived, then, 12 on the scene after the shooting? 13 A: Yeah, yeah. 14 Q: All right. And can you tell us when 15 it was that you did arrive at -- at Camp Ipperwash or at 16 Stoney Point? 17 A: You know, I -- I was trying to -- I 18 think it was the -- it had to have been the day after. I 19 don't know if it was the day after or two (2) days after, 20 but it was -- there was still a lot of police in the 21 area, I mean, the area was pretty much -- pretty tight. 22 It was pretty much shut down. 23 And -- when I came in and -- but, somehow 24 I -- I came -- I drove right into the Camp and -- and 25 then I went up to -- went up -- they showed me where the

1 site was and -- and then in the -- at that time, I mean 2 we -- we offered our tobacco at that time as we came 3 there because it was -- whenever there's a death, there's 4 a certain way you have to go into the area for ourselves, 5 so, we had to go in there and put tobacco down and pay 6 our respects, to what -- what has happened. 7 And -- and then from there, at that point 8 I think I was contacted -- we tried to talk to the -- to 9 the people -- to the family at the time. I mean, there 10 was a lot of emotions running at that time and it was 11 mainly just to try and calm everybody down, calm the 12 situation down and -- but it was -- it was -- it was just 13 really an emotional state at that point. 14 While I was there I was -- I believe I was 15 contacted by the Chiefs of Ontario office as -- as well 16 through Gord Peters, who was the Regional Chief at the 17 time and -- and said that they were coming into the area. 18 Him and his assistant, I believe, was -- was Richard 19 Pawless and -- and they said they wanted me to, you know, 20 brief, you know, find out as much as I could and then 21 brief them as -- when they came into the area. And -- 22 and just to -- to look at the overall situation. 23 There was -- I was just trying to 24 remember all -- everything was just rolling, like, it was 25 -- it was pretty crazy around that time and I remember

1 looking for -- yeah, when I had arrived there, it was -- 2 it was actually in the evening, because I was looking for 3 -- looking for Bruce, I believe, and -- because he was 4 already in discussions, I believe -- I believe with the 5 OPP and the APS at the time. 6 I believe it was Anishnaabeg Policing 7 Services was involved and they were trying to -- I guess 8 they were having discussions to try and figure out what 9 to do. 10 The primary focus, right around that time, 11 was -- was -- I remember shortly afterwards, I guess to 12 secure the area. But, as well as to try and secure -- 13 secure the area where the incident happened, where Dudley 14 was shot, so that the investigations unit could come in - 15 - and so I remember going -- 16 Q: I want to deal -- I want to deal with 17 that area in -- in some detail, Mr. Antone -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: -- but I'm wondering, Mr. 20 Commissioner, if this is an appropriate time for the 21 morning break? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: This would 23 be a good time -- 24 THE WITNESS: To take a break? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- to take a

1 break. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 7 for fifteen (15) minutes. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 10:31 a.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 10:47 a.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed, please be seated. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 16 Q: Mr. Antone, just before the break, 17 you were telling us that shortly after your arrival, or 18 at some point after your arrival at Camp Ipperwash at 19 Stoney Point, on the 7th of September 1995, that you were 20 eventually shown to the site. 21 I believe you used the -- used the phrase, 22 "they showed us to the site." 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And I guess I would ask you just to 25 clarify on that, first of all who "they" is and who "us"

1 would be? 2 When you say they showed us to the site, 3 who was it that you recall would have shown you to the 4 site where Mr. Dudley George was shot? 5 A: I can't remember everyone, but I 6 believe one of them was -- was Glenn -- was Glenn George. 7 But I can't remember, I know it was some of the family 8 members and -- that had taken us up to the area, up to 9 the Park, because we had gone into the camp gate and took 10 the road up to the -- up to the site. 11 Q: Okay. And when you say, "us," I take 12 it you were with somebody else? 13 A: No, I wasn't. I was probably -- 14 that's probably just my plural term for -- 15 Q: All right. And can you tell us, when 16 you arrived there, what was it that you would have 17 observed in terms of that site? 18 A: Well, actually when the -- when I was 19 there, they walked me through what happened. The people 20 that -- there was people there who were -- who were there 21 at the time and they took me through what happened, where 22 they were seated, the area that they were sitting in or 23 having a picnic, and which was about, oh, I don't know, 24 maybe two hundred (200) feet away from the fence. 25 Then they showed me where the fence area

1 was, where that kind of sandy area was that goes down to 2 the beach and then where the road -- the paved section 3 is. 4 And we walked out to that. They showed me 5 where -- they had already marked the area where Dudley 6 had fell and then they took me out onto the road and then 7 down the road where the -- the OPP -- I guess where they 8 were -- about where they were dragging Bernard and where 9 they were taking him and then -- then beyond that, they 10 took me over to where -- where I guess what was perceived 11 or what they felt was -- was the OPP kind of field 12 office, which was a trailer and all of the site and 13 everything was all abandoned at that point. 14 Q: Okay. It will be described as the 15 tactical operations centre? 16 A: Yeah, yeah. 17 Q: Did you have occasion to view inside 18 of any of the facilities that were being used? 19 A: Yeah, we looked inside. I mean they 20 had -- I -- what I remember is that there -- there was 21 maps and -- and that was basically it. I think mostly 22 everything was -- was gone at that point. I mean, there 23 was furniture around in there and stuff like that, but -- 24 I remember there was -- there was some computers there 25 too as well.

1 Q: Okay. And at that point when you 2 were shown around by various individuals, did you see 3 whether or not these individuals had taken anything from 4 those facilities? 5 A: I don't know whether there was 6 anything to take at that point. There was -- I don't 7 think -- I don't think there was. 8 Q: And given what you observed at the 9 sandy parking lot, in that area, did you see whether or 10 not there had been any steps taken to secure or otherwise 11 preserve that area for the investigation that would 12 ultimately ensue? 13 A: Yeah. They were -- they were 14 attempting to, you know, to keep the area so that no one 15 disturbed the area. But, I think that at that point 16 there was even -- I mean, I remember somebody coming to 17 me and showing me, like, what would you call it, spent 18 shells I guess, that some of them had picked up. They 19 were laying around the area. 20 I mean, they probably should have left 21 them alone but somebody had picked some -- picked some of 22 those up and they had -- and they told them, Well put 23 them in a bag and save them, and, you know, all that. 24 Whether that ever happened, I don't know. 25 So, I was -- when I went there I finally -

1 - when I finally got connected with Bruce and others, 2 they had -- they had finally had arranged a meeting and 3 by then I believe some other people had come into the 4 area and, like, the Regional Chief and -- and that. We 5 like -- I remember going down after being in the area for 6 a while. 7 I was -- I was up there for maybe an hour 8 or so and then I left and went down to the main camp and 9 -- and connected up with some people, I think either by 10 phone or whatever, and -- and they made arrangements to - 11 - I can't remember. 12 I think that it seemed like the -- the 13 biggest fear that -- that I remember hearing is that they 14 were afraid that they were going to take the Park or take 15 the land back away from them. And, I says, Well I don't 16 think that's going to happen. And we just had to figure 17 out what -- what needs to happen now. I says, There -- 18 this -- this whole incident has to be investigated. 19 So, I remember going to a meeting with the 20 OPP, I believe it was at Stony Point -- Kettle Point Band 21 office. And I -- and I can't remember which day it was, 22 whether it was that day or the next day or what, but I 23 remember going there and the whole discussion was around, 24 Well we've got to have access to the site to do an 25 investigation, and all that kind of stuff.

1 And I says -- because I had asked them, I 2 says, What's -- what is the problem, what's -- what needs 3 to be done here. And they says, Well, they says, we need 4 access to the site and we need to -- so that the 5 investigations unit can come in and then we can -- we can 6 do an investigation and find out what happened. 7 And -- and then -- so I says, Well what 8 was the stumbling block. They were saying, Well the 9 people over at Stoney Point won't let us do the 10 investigation. 11 Says, Well I don't think -- I don't think 12 that's the case because I just came from there and 13 everybody's talking about it, like, you know, Why did 14 they do this, you know, we want to know why, you know, 15 and, you know, Let's -- let's find the answers, let's do 16 an -- why are they investigating it, or whatever. 17 I mean, those were kind of -- some many 18 questions out there. So, I says, Well, I says, Wait 19 here, I says. And I believe Gord Peters and myself, we 20 went back over to Stoney Point and -- and said, Hey, you 21 know, these guys, the OPP and the investigation unit 22 wants to come in and -- and they want a guarantee of 23 their safety, and all that kind of stuff, because they're 24 saying that you guys are preventing an investigation and 25 all that.

1 Which we knew at that point was the 2 furthest thing from the truth. It was -- to me it was an 3 exaggerated excuse not to -- to do anything right away, 4 you know. I think, well, I mean, I -- the tensions were 5 pretty high on both sides because, I mean, somebody just 6 -- somebody got killed, you know. 7 So, they said that, what they had asked, 8 if you could have the Native police secure the area, 9 they'd have no problem, you know, with doing an 10 investigation. 11 So, we went back and we said, you know, 12 There's no problem, you know, having Indian police come 13 in and secure the area and they would be more than 14 willing to cooperate. 15 And all they wanted to know, is they 16 wanted to make sure that -- that they -- that they had 17 someone that was involved. And I think we had -- at that 18 point we had designated someone to be there to help watch 19 the situation as the investigation unfolded. 20 And then that was arranged. 21 Q: Just if I can -- if I can back up for 22 a moment, and get some clarification, Mr. Antone. The 23 meeting that you had with the OPP at the Kettle Point 24 Band office or administration centre, do you recall who 25 it was that would have been representative of the OPP at

1 that meeting? 2 A: No, I don't. I can't remember his 3 name. 4 Q: You mentioned the investigation unit. 5 I gather you're referring to the special investigations 6 unit? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And do you recall who would have been 9 representing that body? 10 A: No, I can't remember the name either. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: You've had a -- an opportunity during 15 the break, Mr. Antone, to review a memorandum of 16 understanding that bears a date of around the 17th of 17 September, marked in these Proceedings as P-47. 18 And first of all, you did take a look at 19 that document? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: And you're familiar with that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And that is a memorandum of 24 understanding that you were part and parcel of 25 negotiating --

1 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: -- and what you have just spoken to? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right, okay. And beyond the 5 assistance that you rendered in allowing access or in 6 gaining access by the OPP and the SIU together with a 7 First Nations investigative team, did you have a further 8 role, Mr. Antone? 9 A: No, I didn't. At that point I -- I 10 think I might have been around a couple more days just as 11 a concerned observer. 12 When the Minister of Indian Affairs came 13 around, I think it was during that period of time. And I 14 don't know whether that was before the 25th or after, I 15 was -- I went up there just to hear what was going on 16 there. 17 We tried to facilitate -- I was with Chief 18 Peters at the time and we were -- we had hoped to try and 19 see whether the Minister would actually go to the site 20 and go to -- to the -- to Stoney Point but he refused to. 21 You know, he said it was too un -- I guess 22 too unstable a situation whatever. 23 Q: All right. And you said that, "we 24 had designated." Again, I just want to get some 25 clarification from you.

1 "We had designated somebody to sort of 2 watch that." 3 I take it that, as your role diminished, 4 there would have been someone else to continue in an 5 observation capacity? 6 A: Hmm hmm. Following the incidents, 7 one (1) of the -- one (1) of the people that we asked to 8 go over and -- and to continue observation and -- of the 9 situation, because they had -- the Stoney Point people 10 had requested our presence at the -- in the Camp and, of 11 course, you know, I mean myself, I'm too busy to -- to 12 stay there. 13 So we had asked around and one (1) of the 14 persons that volunteered to do that was Layton and so he 15 was -- he was designated to go over and -- and be with 16 them. 17 Q: And again, for clarification, who 18 would have designated him to be with them? 19 A: I would say probably -- because the 20 request -- I remember during -- whether it was during 21 that particular -- I think it was around that particular 22 time, the family had come to the longhouse and had asked 23 if --if our Council, the Chief's Council would designate 24 someone to continue to work with them, you know, to help 25 them out and it was out of that request that we sent

1 Layton to do that. 2 Q: And this would have came from the -- 3 from the -- 4 A: Family at Stoney Point, yeah. 5 Q: And in terms of the designation, that 6 would have been by the Oneida Longhouse? 7 A: Yeah, the Oneida Longhouse. Yeah, 8 the Council there. 9 Q: All right. Okay. If I could just 10 have a moment. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MR. DONALD WORME: I think those are all 15 the questions that I have for Mr. Antone at this point, 16 Commissioner. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much. Who wishes to examine Mr. Antone? We'll take 19 a quick -- Mr. Klippenstein...? 20 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: About fifteen 21 (15) minutes. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fifteen (15) 23 minutes. 24 And Mr. Rosenthal...? 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: About half an hour.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About a half 2 an hour? And Mr. Ross...? 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Perhaps ten (10) 4 minutes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps ten 6 (10) minutes. 7 Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: About five (5) 9 minutes. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About 11 five (5) minutes. 12 Mr. Roland...? 13 MR. IAN ROLAND: A little longer; maybe 14 an hour and a half. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 16 Hourigan...? 17 MR. WILLIAM HOURIGAN: Fifteen (15) 18 minutes. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 20 O'Marra...? 21 MR. AL O'MARRA: Five (10) to ten (10) 22 minutes, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 24 should be able to complete the examination today. We'll 25 start right away and get right into it and we should be

1 able to get through it. 2 We usually adjourn at 3:30 on Thursday. 3 If we have to stay a little longer we will, but we should 4 be able to be finished by 3:30. 5 Mr. Klippenstein, do you want to start? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 10 Q: Good morning, Mr. Antone. 11 A: Good morning. 12 Q: My name is Murray Klippenstein, I'm 13 one (1) of the legal Counsel for the Estate of Dudley 14 George and for Sam George and other brothers and sisters 15 of -- 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: -- of Dudley George. I, first of 18 all, wanted to get a little clarification on something 19 you mentioned in your testimony about your role as Chief. 20 I think you mentioned you were a Chief of the Turtle 21 clan, is that right? 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: and my impression was that that was a 24 Chief in -- in the traditional structure of your 25 governance rather than, for example, as elected under the

1 Indian Act; is that right? 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: Could you say just a bit more about 4 your position as Chief and how that fit in with your -- 5 your governing structure traditionally? 6 A: Well, in a -- from where I sit, I sit 7 in the Turtle clan and there are three (3) Chiefs in the 8 Turtle clan. And -- and I represent one (1) of the 9 extended families. And so in -- in -- in deliberation in 10 our Council, each of the three (3) -- three (3) -- the 11 three (3) -- the three (3) clans council together, the 12 Wolf clan, the Bear clan and the Turtle clan. 13 And so as -- when we do that, we -- when a 14 solution or an issue comes on the floor, it's usually 15 introduced by the well of the nation, which is the Turtle 16 clan and then the fire keepers are the Wolf clan and the 17 Bear clan has their own designated responsibilities. 18 So, we try to -- when an issue is put on 19 the floor, we -- we keep discussing that issue until we 20 come to a consensus -- a solution by consensus. And then 21 that's presented to the floor or it's -- it's -- once 22 it's all folded together, the Wolf clan will announce it 23 and say, This is what we've resolved, this is our 24 solution, and this is how we're going to take care of the 25 -- the issues.

1 Q: And is -- is that system of Chiefs 2 that you're a part of a traditional one that goes quite 3 far back historically? 4 A: Oh, yeah, it's -- as I had mentioned 5 earlier, it's a system of government that has been in 6 place as far as we know, well over fifteen hundred 7 (1,500) years and -- 8 Q: And then you mentioned something else 9 in your testimony about an occasion in the 1920s or '30s, 10 when you said the Canadian Government and the RCMP had 11 imposed the Indian Act elective system on your people. 12 Can you tell me a bit more about that? 13 A: Yeah. That happened in 1934; I 14 believe it was in the June of that year. Prior to that 15 our -- our -- see, our people originally moved to -- to 16 Southern Ontario from Upstate New York in 1840. And we - 17 - we came here to -- and left our area because of the -- 18 there was just too many white people in Upstate New York. 19 So, we moved here hoping that there would be less of 20 them, and -- and at that time there was. 21 And so when we came here it was -- it was 22 also to rebuild our Nation as well. At that time we were 23 -- we were -- our commun -- our Nation was in pretty sad 24 shape in -- in 1840. 25 We had -- we had -- most of our -- during

1 the wars down there, lot of our territory was destroyed. 2 We had huge orchards that were burnt, cut and burnt by 3 the US Military and -- and also the -- the wars have -- 4 they burnt many of our villages. And so we were seeking 5 refuge by that time, by -- and so we came up here. 6 And -- and there's a long story about why 7 we chose this place too as well, but we -- when we came 8 here our -- our Nation was governed, our community was 9 governed by the traditional chiefs up until 1934. 10 And then -- and for a number of years the 11 Indian agent that operated out of the Caridoc Agency out 12 of -- which was -- the Indian Agent Office was located 13 right across the river in -- on -- in a Chippewa 14 community, in the village of Muncey, was where the Indian 15 agent, Caridoc, and the RCMP were stationed. 16 And they -- and they controlled the -- the 17 communities in that area; Chippewa, Muncey of the Thames 18 and as well as Oneida, as well as all the other 19 communities too. That was the main agency that -- of 20 Indian Affairs that controlled Southern Ontario, the 21 Indian communities in Southern Ontario. 22 So, by 1934 they -- they held an election 23 in our community, which I believe only -- I can't 24 remember but there's -- I haven't read that material for 25 a while and -- but there was only about twenty-six (26)

1 people that actually voted in the election that elected 2 the first -- first Council. And it was supposed to be an 3 trial-and-error situation, well, they said, Well -- well 4 you guys can try it out for a while if you like it. 5 But, what happened just before that was 6 that there was a meeting held with the Indian agent; they 7 said they did not want to accept the system. And -- and 8 the man I was telling you before, the Demus Elm who was 9 one of my teachers, he was -- he was present at that 10 meeting and he was the secretary of the Council. 11 And when he left he said, We are not 12 accepting this, we already have our system of government. 13 So, he left and took the minute book and -- of the 14 meetings and all the documents of meetings at that time 15 and left the meeting. And then most of the leadership at 16 that time walked out of the meeting. 17 But, the government proceeded, because 18 they had some allies in our community who were 19 acculturated, who were assimilated by the system by that 20 time, and they chose to accept this white man system of 21 government that was imposed on us. 22 Q: And you said that in the first 23 election something like twenty-six (26) people voted? 24 A: Hmm hmm. 25 Q: Was