1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 March 9th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )    (np)
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein )            The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )   (np)     George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )   (np)     Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    )   (np)     Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )   (np)       Aazhoodena  (Army Camp)
 18  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stony
 19  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 20  
 21  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 22  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 23  Sue Freeborn     )
 24  Maureen Smith    )   (np)
 25  Lynette D'Souza  )    (np)

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )              Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )    (np)
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (np)
 11  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 12  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 13  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 14  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 15  
 16  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 17  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 18  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 19  
 20  Ian Roland       )              Ontario Provincial 
 21  Karen Jones      )   (np)       Police Association &
 22  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 23  Ian McGilp       )
 24  Annie Leeks      )   (np)
 25

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  Clem Nabigon     )   (np)
  7  Adriel Weaver     )   (np)       Student-at-Law
  8  
  9  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
 10  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 11  
 12  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 13  Matthew Horner   )
 14  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 15  
 16  Mark Frederick   )              Christopher Hodgson
 17  Craig Mills      )
 18  Megan Mackey     )
 19  
 20  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 21  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 22  Melissa Panjer   )
 23  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 BRUCE ELIJAH, Sworn 6 Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 11 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 172 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 174 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. William Henderson 180 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 198 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 212 12 13 14 15 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 272 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-271 Document 7000321 July 13,14/'95 OP 4 Maple, situation report No. 013 5 from Capt. W.D. Smith, Tactical 6 Commander, Camp Ipperwash 55 7 P-272 Document 7000338 July 24, 26/'95 8 OP Maple, situation report No. 023 9 from Capt. W. D. Smith, Tactical 10 Commander, Camp Ipperwash 71 11 P-273 Document 7000573 July 13-17,'95 12 summary of recent developments 72 13 P-274 Document 7000324 July 13-15/'95 14 OP Maple, situation report No. 014 15 from Capt. W. D. Smith, Tactical 16 Commander, Camp Ipperwash 79 17 P-275 Document 7000341 July 28-30/'95 18 OP Maple, situation report No. 026 19 from Capt. W. D. Smith, Tactical 20 Commander, Camp Ipperwash 95 21 P-276 Document 7000576 July 28-30/'95 22 OP Maple, situation report No. 027 23 from Capt. W. D. Smith, Tactical 24 Commander, Camp Ipperwash 100 25

1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-277 First Nation Investigative Team 4 DVD, Video footage September '95 147 5 P-278 Document No. 1001399 November 29/'95 6 Attn: Supt. Parkin re: Project 7 "Maple" 157 8 P-279 Document No. 1009203 December 04/'95 9 08:17 a.m. email to Peter Sturdy 10 from Les Kobayashi, MNR - Parks and 11 Recreation, Subject: Ipperwash 12 Meeting December 02/'95 161 13 P-280 Document No. 1001301 November 1/'95 14 Press Release West Region OPP 15 Listing warrants fro the arrest of 16 individuals as a result of incidents 17 during the Ipperwash Provincial Park 18 occupation. 164 19 P-281 Document No., 2000331 Agenda for 20 Peacekeepers Dinner, November 08/'95 21 13:00 hours 169 22 P-282 Haudenosaunee (People building a 23 Longhouse) Home Web site, 25 pages of 24 official source of news and information 25 re: The Haudenosaunee 220

1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit NO. Description Page No. 3 P-283 Document No. 1000572 July 17/'95 4 Subject: OP Maple Summarizing a 5 number of recent developments. 270 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning, Ms. Vella. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The Commission -- the 11 Commission calls as its next witness, Mr. Bruce Elijah. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning, Mr. Elijah. 14 MR. BRUCE ELIJAH: Good morning. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Elijah. 16 MR. BRUCE ELIJAH: Good morning. 17 THE REGISTRAR: How are you this morning, 18 sir? 19 MR. BRUCE ELIJAH: Good. 20 THE REGISTRAR: Do you prefer to swear on 21 the bible, affirm or use an alternate oath, sir? 22 MR. BRUCE ELIJAH: An alternate. 23 THE REGISTRAR: Alternate oath? 24 MR. BRUCE ELIJAH: Yeah. 25 THE REGISTRAR: Very good. And I

1 understand that you have your own wording to that oath, 2 sir? 3 MR. BRUCE ELIJAH: Yeah. 4 THE REGISTRAR: I ask you to share that 5 with us now and please speak clearly into the mic. 6 MR. BRUCE ELIJAH: Okay. Yeah. 7 8 BRUCE ELIJAH, Sworn: 9 10 THE WITNESS: In our teachings, whenever 11 we -- just about every morning before sunrise, we get a 12 chance to address to and do an evaluation of -- of who we 13 are as a people. And so there's three (3) times in a day 14 that is given to us and it's at sunrise -- just before 15 sunrise and at high noon, about high noon, and -- and 16 just before sunset to acknowledge our walk of life and 17 how we see and how we understand the world and what is 18 given to us. 19 We have responsibility as human beings, as 20 caregivers, as caretakers of those responsibilities given 21 to us, to all of creation and so when it -- when I'm 22 asked to -- to speak to -- to address to, I come from a 23 long lineage from the beginning of time of people who are 24 the truth, who know what respect is and who know what 25 honesty is.

1 So, I stand or sit before you today in the 2 eyes of my ancestors and the future. Oh, okay. 3 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 4 5 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: Mr. Elijah, I understand that your 7 name in English is Bruce Elijah. And would you also 8 advise us of your name and the meaning of your name for 9 our benefit? 10 A: My spirit name is Kalihwakelu, and 11 that was given to me at birth. And we follow in the 12 clans that we are born into. We're a matriarchal society 13 so we follow on the mother's side. 14 The name that is given to me has been 15 handed down from one generation to the next. I don't 16 know how far down I am with that, but when it was given 17 to me, it means one who interprets the teachings. And so 18 that's -- that's the name that I have. 19 And the nation that I come from, we call 20 ourselves Onyotak'aka, people of the standing stone. Or 21 in English we say Oneidas. We're part of the Iroquois 22 Confederacy, the Six Nations, that we call ourselves, the 23 Haudenosaunee, people of the longhouse. And so there's a 24 long history of that. 25 And so today we still continue that and

1 some of my children and -- and pretty well my 2 grandchildren, we go back to where we only have our 3 spirit names. And so we continue that honourable and 4 good ways of who we are as a people in the eyes of 5 creation. 6 Q: Thank you. 7 A: Thank you. 8 Q: I understand that your date of birth 9 is July the 8th, 1945? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And your current residence is at the 12 Oneida Nation in Ontario? 13 A: Correct. 14 Q: Where is that located approximately? 15 A: It's about an hour's drive from here, 16 it took me this morning. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And normally -- and -- all right. 20 It's -- it's nearby London; is that right? 21 A: Yes. Southwest of London. 22 Q: Thank you. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: I understand that the Oneida Nation 25 is comprised of three (3) sister nations?

1 A: Yes. We have a sister nation out in 2 Oneida, Wisconsin, by Green Bay. And our homeland is in 3 Oneida, New York. And, of course, here in southwest 4 Ontario, near London. 5 Q: Would you tell the Commissioner what 6 your -- what your -- I'll say occupation, but what I mean 7 is to say what is your -- your role, your primary roles 8 and responsibilities within your community? 9 A: Within the community my role is -- is 10 basically -- goes back to -- I come from a lineage on my 11 grandfather's side of hereditary chiefs which, in that -- 12 in that role that it's the women that pick who the 13 leaders are to be. We don't have an election as we know 14 it today. You're chosen by who you are, by the family 15 that you're born into. And on -- so that would be the 16 political side. 17 On my grandmother's side, she's a -- she 18 was a healer, she was a midwife. And so I have a little 19 bit of both, I guess. And -- and at a very young age I 20 was taught, trained to -- to be in that way, you know, to 21 -- and my thing I guess in all of this was -- was -- my 22 main interest was how do we stop the pain. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: And so it comes from that way of 25 coming into as to who I am today.

1 Q: And what -- how does that role 2 translate, if you will, outside of your community and 3 into the broader aboriginal community? 4 A: I work in many clinics across the 5 Country and I work with doctors to see, you know, the 6 many sicknesses and diseases that our people have is that 7 sometimes, you know, the history of our people is that 8 prior to the turn of the century is that there -- there 9 was no cases of our people having diabetes, cancer, heart 10 conditions or any respiratory problems. There was none. 11 Our people lived to be a hundred years 12 old, plus. And so many of those, again, those teachings 13 is to be able to look at what is our medicines, what is 14 truthfully our medicines that do work. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: So, that's part of what I do, too, is 17 work in the clinics and I work in healing centres across 18 the country. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And indicated also that there was a 22 political aspect to your -- your roles and 23 responsibilities, can you advise as to what the principle 24 form that political role takes? 25 A: What -- in our -- in our confederacy

1 we have fifty (50) chiefs throughout the confederacy. In 2 our community, in our nation we have nine (9) and there 3 are three (3) clans in there, so there are three (3) 4 chiefs in each clan. 5 And at one (1) point, I was -- in the 6 early '60s, I was appointed to one (1) of those 7 positions, up -- up until 1981. And so I spent a lot of 8 time sitting with the elders throughout the confederacy 9 and taking a look at and understanding those -- those 10 responsibilities of understanding what those treaties 11 are, the wording to that and the countries that we have 12 treaties with . 13 And so you take a look at the judiciary 14 responsibilities with the Federal Government and you get 15 a real good clear understanding of where we are in this 16 world, of what works and what doesn't or what is working 17 for our nation and then what -- and what do you do with 18 that and -- and how do you bring it to the attention of - 19 - of the world today? 20 And, you know, in -- I always look at the 21 education system of our country is that the very books 22 that I read when I went to school that depicted us as -- 23 as, you know, people who live in the woods and, you know, 24 are not educated and are illiterate and we're always 25 going to be, you know, wards of, you know, the

1 governments that come into -- and there's been many 2 others prior to, you know, the -- the British. 3 And so when you begin to take a look at 4 it, those are the very books that your children and your 5 grandchildren and our children are reading today in the 6 education system, so nothing has changed. 7 So, you can kind of get an idea of where 8 our thinking comes from and -- and I say it today and 9 I've said it in the past is that, you know, the history 10 of what Canada is based on is not a good one. 11 Q: All right. Now, you indicated that 12 the organization or societal organization that your 13 community was based on, a clan structure -- 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: -- would you advise as to what the 16 three (3) dominant family clans are and what your clan 17 is? 18 A: Yes, we have the -- the Turtle, the 19 Bear and the Wolf and I come from the Wolf family. 20 Q: And what distinguishes the Wolf 21 family from the Bear and Turtle families in terms of 22 responsibilities? 23 A: We are kind of -- go out there and 24 check things out, you know, as the wolf does, checks out 25 his territory everyday and see if everything's all right.

1 As with the Turtles, they're -- they're the people that 2 have the memory of and keep the sacred bundles and keep 3 the sacred ceremonies. And the Bear clan are the keepers 4 of the medicines. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Now, I think you indicated earlier 8 that on the political side, you -- you carried out a 9 particular role from the early '60s -- did you say to 10 1981? 11 A: 1981. 12 Q: All right. And in that connection, 13 did you have occasion to represent your community in the 14 international forum? 15 A: Yes, I did. After Wounded Knee, we 16 were -- there were several people that was asked or 17 chosen -- delegated to look into of what it would -- what 18 would it take to be able to bring our issues before the 19 UN for the Human Rights Commission. Because in the 20 United States there's no way that we were going to be 21 heard and -- and in Canada the same thing. 22 You know, it takes -- very expensive to 23 get a lawyer --I think I'm in the wrong field sometimes - 24 - to get a lawyer and -- and to be able to be 25 represented, to get legal representation to bring it to,

1 say, the Supreme Court of Canada, our concerns, you know. 2 And so we wanted to bring it before the world forum. And 3 so I was one of the people that was delegated to do that. 4 Q: Okay. I wonder if we can spend a few 5 moments on the -- on the governing structure of Oneida. 6 And, in particular, I understand that there is -- there 7 is a structure called the longhouse. 8 I wonder if you would kindly describe the 9 role and place of the longhouse at Oneida? 10 A: The history of the longhouse is that 11 in our language we call ourselves the Haudenosaunee 12 people, that's what it means when you say the longhouse, 13 is that we -- the symbolism of -- there's two (2) doors 14 at each end and we say that the one (1) door would be 15 when we're born into this world and the next door is when 16 we leave this world, when we finish, and so what do we 17 learn in that -- in that space between when you're born 18 until you're finished. 19 And the teaching of that is that there's 20 symbolically these teachings that is given to us. Our 21 governance and how we govern and how we live by are not 22 man-made. In any political world that we live in today, 23 those laws that you abide by are man-made. Ours isn't. 24 Our teachings and our governance is -- is by the Creator. 25 So, you know, that's where, I guess, we

1 differ, you know, in our beliefs. And that -- and that 2 role is that it's neither, you know, me as being 3 president or the king of that makes it happen. It isn't. 4 I have to -- we have a society, a nation 5 of people that we are -- that we're responsible to, that 6 we're accountable to. And they're the ones that choose 7 as to what are we supposed to do or how we're suppose to 8 go about it, and remind us of those roles and 9 responsibilities. 10 So, we learn -- what we're taught is all 11 of those roles and responsibilities of understanding what 12 our role is in that creation. Because also, you know, we 13 -- we have responsibilities not only to the -- to the 14 land, to Mother Earth, and, you know, we are -- and I 15 said it before -- is that the land belongs to us. 16 You know, we didn't come from any other 17 part of the world. This is where we put -- the Creator 18 put us here to look after the resources and the land and 19 all of what it has and that's given to us. And so we try 20 to understand what that role is. 21 And are we competent to be able to -- to 22 handle that. And as human beings, as individuals, we 23 have a choice with that. We have a -- I have a choice 24 either to accept that or not accept it. 25 Q: And I understand that certain types

1 of decisions take place at the longhouse. Can you advise 2 us as to the protocol, if you will, the decision making 3 process that's involved with respect to this -- this 4 organizing or governing structure? 5 A: In order to be able to look at the 6 future we've got to -- we've got to really understand our 7 past of where we come from as -- as a people who are 8 placed on this earth and -- and where our direction comes 9 from and how it plays in that role. And so, to us, we -- 10 we can go back to the beginning of time. 11 And those roles and responsibilities and 12 very clear. And so as we -- as we learn that process, 13 even today as the governance goes, is that we look at 14 mainly what our ceremonies are to be throughout the 15 season. We have nine (9) ceremonies -- major ceremonies, 16 that we do throughout the year. 17 We're also looking at how many new babies 18 are being born in -- in the year to be aware of that and 19 to let the people know that there are ceremonies that are 20 to happen when the children get their names, and the 21 different stages that they go through in life and of -- 22 of bringing awareness to them, and also to be able to 23 look at the future, the future of our people in the world 24 that we live in and, you know, the cutbacks in education, 25 health, you know, a simple thing as water, you know, is

1 it safe to drink? 2 And, as simple as it may be, and it sounds 3 that way at times, is that that is the very essence of 4 life is -- is -- is water. Sometimes we can sit for many 5 days talking about what that future is going to look 6 like. 7 And if you can imagine us living in -- in 8 -- in Canada in the province of Ontario and the little 9 postage stamps community that we live in is that how do 10 we address that to our surrounding communities and -- and 11 that we do have a concern, whether it be housing, whether 12 it be education, whether it be health, sanitation, you 13 know, the air quality, the sicknesses and the diseases 14 that have come to us -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- is that how do we -- how do we 17 exist? How can we? So, I would say that majority of 18 what -- of what our time is based on is -- is the well- 19 being of our families. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: That's what it's all about. 22 Q: And by extension, do your people also 23 have a history of, and responsibility towards rendering 24 assistance to other aboriginal communities when 25 requested?

1 A: That's our -- that's what our whole 2 confederacy is based on, is that we're economists, we -- 3 we, you know, we do the things that is given to us to be 4 able to -- to survive. And in time, that if we do need 5 assistance, whatever -- whatever that may be, then we are 6 to call to the other nations to -- to help us whatever 7 that needs may be. 8 And so again, our people are -- are well 9 known for that in the past, is that there's been many 10 nations that have come to us. For Oneidas alone is that 11 we have twenty-seven (27) other nations that came to us 12 for help back in the 1700s. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And we're reminded of that sometimes 15 by those nations that we have helped in the past. We -- 16 we are still in a treaty making process with other Indian 17 nations. 18 In -- in my time alone I've seen where we 19 made alliances with the Hopis, the Navajos, the 20 Kickapoos, the Yakhis, the Sioux and the -- the latest 21 one is the Shuswap and the Okanagans in British Columbia 22 and that was in 1987 of September. So, that's the latest 23 one. 24 Q: Is there a protocol or process which 25 is to be followed before -- before a decision is made --

1 A: Oh, yes. 2 Q: -- to send individuals out to other 3 First Nations? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Could you explain what that process 6 is? 7 A: Whenever any nation feels that they 8 need assistance or they need help, one (1) of the first 9 things that -- that you have to look into is that you got 10 -- you have to be able to speak your language. 11 And there -- there are three (3) songs 12 that -- that is given to you by your nation and there are 13 three (3) sacred medicines that you will bring to and 14 there are usually runners or messengers that are 15 delegated to first bring that to the Great Council of 16 Peace, which is in Onyota'aka. And they're the -- that's 17 the capital of -- of our Nations, where you first come to 18 -- to seek that assistance. 19 And then from there the, you know, the -- 20 the Grand Council will then decide as to whether they 21 need all of our support or all the Nations' support, or 22 is it an individual Nation that's going to be able to 23 assist. 24 In many cases the history of our people is 25 that there were many Nations that came to us for -- for

1 that assistance. And so, again, the history as far back 2 as you can go has been there that -- that we've, you 3 know, we -- we sit down and work out what those protocols 4 and those procedures are, and then we follow them to the 5 T, and we still do. So, that's still in existence today, 6 that process. 7 Q: In relation to -- to your Nation 8 then, has the longhouse considered requests for 9 assistance to other First Nations in, for example, in 10 protests or struggles with respect to reclaiming of land 11 and those types of issues? 12 A: Yes. There have been many people 13 that have come, many Nations have come to -- to us and 14 asked for assistance. And so many of that again is -- is 15 the procedures, the legal procedures as to how would be - 16 - if there was treaties or agreements that was and then 17 to look at the territories of our peoples. 18 And so we have, as you have a map of 19 Canada, we have a map of our territories. 20 Q: In -- in order for someone to be 21 dispatched to another traditional territory or reserve to 22 render assistance on behalf of the Oneida -- on behalf of 23 the -- the longhouse, do they have to be designated by 24 the longhouse for that position? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Okay. And at any time between 1993 2 and 1995 did you sit on the Council at the longhouse, the 3 decision making body? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. Have you discharged the 6 roles of peacekeeper and negotiator on behalf of the 7 Oneida Nation outside of your committee -- sorry, 8 community pursuant to a designation by the longhouse? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And how long have you discharged the 11 roles of peacekeeper and negotiator in that respect, for 12 what period of time? 13 A: Could you repeat that question again? 14 Q: Certainly. Over what period of time 15 have you discharged the role of peacekeeper and 16 negotiator as a designate on behalf of the longhouse? 17 A: My goodness, it's been a while. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you want 22 to stop, Mr. Elijah, we will do so anytime you want to. 23 Do you want a break? 24 THE WITNESS: No. It's all right. That 25 particular role -- there's things that you do in a --

1 within a family, within a community, and part of that 2 training when you do -- when you work for your community 3 will determine if you're -- if you're able to do outside 4 of your community, to -- to other Nations and to other 5 peoples. 6 And so I guess my first test came into 7 being probably in 1958, was sort of my introduction as to 8 am I -- you know, am I capable or am I able to? And, you 9 know, today my thing is always to phase myself out of 10 those responsibilities and those roles and so what you do 11 with that is then you train others, hopefully, you know, 12 to be able to -- to -- to learn this process. Thank you. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: All right. Thank you. Would you -- 16 and is this a -- a role that therefore you continue to 17 discharge? 18 A: Up to now, yes. 19 Q: Would you explain what the role -- 20 primary role and responsibilities of a peacekeeper and 21 negotiator within the Oneida tradition is? 22 A: First of all, I guess the bottom line 23 is that how do we stop bloodshed, first. 24 Second is that to be able to talk to all 25 Parties involved and -- and third is to be able to look

1 at what our -- the issues and what are the concerns that 2 -- that needs to be addressed and to give all parties an 3 opportunity to be able to, you know, to create that 4 platform where they can speak to and address to, so that 5 all -- everybody hears and then to lay out some ground 6 rules in terms of how we can bring a peaceful resolution 7 to that. 8 It seems very basic, but the process of 9 how it goes -- how you do that is very hard to -- to get 10 people to -- to sit down to, to address to. 11 Q: And in that role, then, do you impose 12 decisions or facilitate decisions? 13 A: Facilitate. 14 Q: Now, we've heard some references in 15 this Inquiry to the term, "Warrior Society" and 16 "Warriors", and does that term and phrase have any 17 resonance or meaning to you in your tradition? 18 A: In our -- in our traditions and in 19 our culture we have what we call in our language 20 Atselhadiskohaget (phonetic); and that means the 21 responsibility of -- of the men to be able to provide 22 shelter, to be able to provide food and to be able to 23 provide protection if it is needed. 24 And so we -- as close as I can come to, 25 and we've used it in the past, is peacekeepers and we --

1 again, our culture is based on the great law of peace. 2 It was our peoples and our nations that we 3 gave democracy to the world, not only to us, to the 4 world; that we are the foundation of democracy, freedom 5 of speech, freedom of belief and freedom to exercise to 6 live in balance of creation. 7 And so to this day, you know, people are 8 trying to -- as much as what they can -- to be able to 9 come close to that. We have maintained that and still do 10 to this day. 11 Q: Now, I understand that you assisted 12 with the formation of a group called the Land Rights 13 Committee at one time? 14 A: Yes, this is going back after Wounded 15 Knee again, was that what we needed to is that -- we felt 16 we needed to do, was to be able to educate our people in 17 terms of what was happening in -- in Canada and in the 18 United States and the Americas and what would be 19 happening in the future. 20 We knew that what was -- what happened in 21 Wounded Knee, that there was going to be many hot spots 22 across the Country because of the situations of how -- 23 where our people -- how our people were living at this 24 point in time and so we needed to address to that. And 25 so we felt that we needed to go out there and educate our

1 people. 2 And so this consisted, not only elders, we 3 -- we took our Elders with us and -- to remind us of -- 4 of those spiritual understanding of how we handle and how 5 we deal with things. 6 And then we have many of our youth, our 7 young people, who were in the -- whether they're studying 8 law or whether they were going to school in the colleges 9 and the universities, Native Studies Program across the 10 country, was how do we get them to be able to do the 11 research that is needed. And so we -- there was a lot of 12 involvement with our peoples and our young peoples to be 13 able to -- to clearly understand the -- the times and the 14 world that we live in. 15 The treaties, again, no one talks about 16 those treaties or defines what those treaties are. And 17 if they do, then you have one side, you know, giving 18 their definition of what those treaties are, and we have 19 ours. 20 We have -- and so one of the things that 21 we learned was out of the wampums that we have, that have 22 been confiscated by the RCMP and -- and the police back 23 in the 20's. And so many of those wampums are in the 24 museums today and we don't have access to those. 25 So, you know, you can imagine, you know,

1 again, what those are. Because prior to that or prior to 2 the -- to the 60's I've never seen a wampum belt. I've 3 heard about it, I've seen pictures of it, but I've never 4 actually touched it. Yet, it belongs to our people. 5 And so back in the 20's, that's what the 6 Government did, of Canada, was to go into these 7 communities and -- and confiscate all of those sacred 8 items. And we have a history that's -- that's recorded 9 as to the events of what those were and how it took 10 place. 11 So, what we needed to do is to bring out 12 the true history to our people, as, you know, the lack of 13 what I had at the beginning of the laws of the Canadian 14 law, how it works. And so you have to understand -- try 15 to understand both sides if you can. And so our thing 16 was to be able to see how we can do that with what is 17 written on paper, with the words that go with it, and 18 explain what our wampum belts were. 19 So, we made duplicates of those -- of 20 those wampum belts and we were able to take it to the 21 communities and to show that -- what our laws are, when 22 we say, I guess, natural laws versus man-made laws, and 23 how it works and how it doesn't work. 24 Q: And so the primary function of the 25 Land Rights Committee was an educational one, educational

1 function in terms of oral history and -- and other forms 2 of aboriginal history with respect to land issues; is 3 that fair? 4 A: That would be fair. What we -- we 5 also learn as we go is that what we wanted to be able to 6 do is that the word "education" is kind of a hard word 7 because it goes back to those who have and those you 8 don't have. You know, there's a special school for -- if 9 you're rich, you can afford to -- a special school that 10 you go to. 11 And for those you can't or can't afford to 12 go to those special schools, then, you know, when you -- 13 when you say the word, "education", it depends on where 14 you went to school. 15 Q: All right -- 16 A: So -- so what we do is we took 17 another word and we call it awareness. 18 Q: All right. Raising awareness? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: And over what period of time was this 21 committee active? 22 A: In the early 70's to -- probably to 23 the mid-80's, about fifteen (15) years. 24 Q: Okay. All right. Now, prior to 25 September of 1995 had you been involved as a peacekeeper

1 or negotiator in relation to disputes involving 2 aboriginal rights and land interests? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did those disputes or some of 5 them involve protests and occupations by aboriginal 6 people in which police became involved? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: What -- at what point in the 9 progression of the protest or occupation would you 10 generally become involved? 11 A: Usually when it gets out of hand. 12 I'm not so much involved in the protest and the marches 13 or the sit-ins and, you know. At that time I was 14 farming, so I don't have time to be doing those kinds of 15 things. 16 And my thing was, again, when -- whenever 17 -- for whatever reasons that people are protesting to 18 bring awareness to, is that when it stops for whatever 19 reason and -- and it's usually when the people either 20 won't, you know, when the sit-ins happen and they won't 21 move and police come in and there's, you know, there's 22 people that are injured or hurt, that's usually when I'm 23 brought in, when a crisis happens. 24 Q: And what is your philosophy 25 underlying your approach to resolving or facilitating

1 these types of disputes when you enter into them? 2 A: Hmm hmm. Again, we -- we take a look 3 at who are the people that we can talk to. You know, if 4 there's something that -- if there's an avenue or a 5 process that we need to take, then we take a look at that 6 and see if that's possible. 7 And we -- when we come into the picture we 8 let them know that we've been delegated to -- to be able 9 to bring some peaceful approach to this. 10 Q: And, again, when you say delegated, 11 do you mean reference to the -- the Oneida longhouse 12 delegation? 13 A: Yes. Through our Council -- from our 14 Council. 15 Q: All right. Can you provide us with 16 some examples of -- of some high-profile, if you will, 17 disputes that you have been -- or designated to enter 18 into as a negotiator and what you did in those 19 incidences? 20 A: My first part of -- of being involved 21 with that was with Wounded Knee and then Moss Lake 22 (phonetic) with the Mohawk community up in Canandaigua in 23 Upper State New York. Raquette Point and then in 24 Akwesasne. 25 And then -- oh, my goodness, in British

1 Columbia, in the interior, Williams Lake, Alkali Lake, 2 with -- with the fishing, hunting and fishing case. 3 Gustafson Lake. 4 Let me see -- Big Mountain with the 5 Navajos and the Hopis. Wesacsin (phonetic), that's Parry 6 Island; I forgot about that one, it just came to me, 7 yeah. That's just to name the few that I -- top of my 8 head. 9 Q: I understand you also were designated 10 and attended at the Kanesatake or Oka crisis? 11 A: Yeah, it's true. 12 Q: And you had some involvement in the 13 Wounded Knee? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Wounded Knee occurred -- was it in 16 1973 approximately? 17 A: Approximate, yeah. 18 Q: And what was your specific designated 19 role there? 20 A: Was to bring in clothes -- clothes to 21 them, medical supplies and food. 22 Q: And in relation to -- I believe you 23 had an involvement in the Canandaigua or Upper New York 24 State dispute in 1972 or '73? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And what was your principal role 2 there? 3 A: Was to be able to identify the 4 leaders of those -- of those communities and to be able 5 to -- again we were called in to assist, so my -- my role 6 is to identify who are the people that I'm going to be 7 sitting at the table with. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: You know. And again to facilitate 10 the process. What we try to do in -- in -- as much as 11 what we can in our teachings is that ours isn't to take 12 over, you know, ours is not to take over the negotiations 13 of any process of each committee, ours is to take a look 14 at and help them, you know, and -- and if we can't we'll 15 be honest with them and tell them that we can't. 16 So, we always have to take a look at the 17 situation and -- and as much as we would -- whether I 18 know what the political structure is or what is 19 happening, I would rather sit down with the people and 20 tell me what that process would be or how it works. 21 And so, there's always these meetings that 22 happen prior to, you know, to take a look at and then I 23 report back to the Council to see, you know, whether I 24 can do that or maybe someone else can do that. 25 Q: Hmm hmm.

1 A: There are many people who have 2 different roles and responsibilities within our nation. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: So, it's not always me. Yeah. 5 Q: All right. And I understand that in 6 that community, that was an assistance rendered to the 7 Mohawks? 8 A: It was. 9 Q: And likewise with Akwesasne or 10 Raquette Point, which occurred in 1975, that also was to 11 render assistance to the Mohawk community -- 12 A: Yes, that's right. 13 Q: -- as -- as a negotiator? 14 A: As a negotiator. 15 Q: And then Kanesatake or the Oka crisis 16 in 1990, what was your role there? 17 A: We were asked in the early part of 18 March to -- to see how we could assist, that they felt 19 that there was a -- they needed support and we had asked 20 them at that time of what that support would be. 21 They couldn't give an answer at that time, 22 so what we did was, we -- there was approximately seven 23 (7) people who were delegated to -- to go in and do an 24 assessment and see where and how we could help them. And 25 so there was -- I was one (1) of them that came in,

1 probably at the latter part of -- of March to look at the 2 situation. 3 I didn't spend a whole lot of time there, 4 there was others that did and then I was asked -- of 5 course when it happened, when the shooting incident 6 happened, then I was -- then I was brought back in, again 7 when the crisis, you know, happened. 8 Q: And in relation to Gustafson Lake in 9 1995, you were in attendance there as -- as a negotiator 10 also? 11 A: No. I was brought in to -- to take a 12 look at what the situation is. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: And I sit on -- in British Columbia, 15 there's an elder -- elder's role of all the nations 16 within British Columbia and the interior where they get 17 together, and I sit on a -- on a -- with the Okanagans 18 and the Shuswap as -- as an advisor. 19 And so being that this was a Shuswap 20 situation, I came back in to take a look at how it was -- 21 how it was being dealt with. And the elders were meeting 22 with -- with the peoples, with the native First Nations 23 political leaders there, so that was happening, so they 24 didn't need my assistance and so I -- I was there for 25 approximately five (5) days and then left.

1 Q: All right. And in -- in the course 2 of these -- these matters, did you have any interaction 3 with police or military in discharging your roles? 4 A: I'm asked at different times and it's 5 usually -- it was done through -- mainly with the 6 Military that -- they knew what my role was. Sometimes 7 I'd get a call from the police and inform me of what's 8 happening, was I aware of? 9 And I guess it was more of a -- a 10 questioning or searching as to would I be involved or 11 could I be involved or was I asked, and so as crisis, you 12 know, arised, and usually, you know up -- again, I won't 13 respond unless I'm delegated to. 14 I can't do things on my own, won't do 15 things on my own. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And so, in short then, sometimes you 19 will receive phone calls from the military or possibly 20 the police with respect to the possibility of your 21 involvement in a particular crisis situation and then do 22 you go back to your Council at the longhouse and seek 23 guidance or pass along the requests in those 24 circumstances? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And then receive direction from the 2 Council and discharge whatever it is that you are advised 3 t do? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And you indicated that 6 there were a number of individuals, not just yourself of 7 course, who may be designated or even designated at all 8 to assist and is one of those individuals with whom 9 you've worked from time to time Bob Antone? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And can you describe for us what the 12 -- how the two (2) of you work? In other words, what is 13 the inter-relationship if the two (2) of you are 14 despatched to a particular situation? 15 A: Again, in our longhouse there are two 16 (2) sides, there are two (2) sides of -- of the political 17 structure or how it's set in is that Bob sits on one (1) 18 side and I sit on the other side. 19 And so usually when we're called into a 20 crisis situation is that there are going to be again, 21 with the three (2) clans, the Wolf, the Turtle and the 22 Bear, is that there'll probably be one (1) from each clan 23 that is going to delegated, if not more, and that's just 24 to, I guess that -- not to get into trouble of saying 25 something that doesn't need to be said or do something

1 that, you know, doesn't need to be done. 2 There's always some -- somebody there that 3 you can consult with to -- hopefully to make the right 4 decisions. And so growing up with Bob, that was sort of 5 our role because he comes from that lineage, too. 6 And so we -- many times, not all the time, 7 but many times we -- we do work together. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: So, that's the reason. 10 Q: And when you work together, you have 11 distinct roles or -- or are you both negotiators? 12 A: Mine -- my role in that is doing the 13 frontline stuff. Mine is talking to people, getting 14 involved and -- and making things begin to happen, moving 15 things to happen. 16 His role mainly is to be able to talk to 17 the media and to get something on paper to look at, 18 what's on paper; he does most of the paperwork. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: When did you first become aware of 22 the claims of the Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point in 23 relation to the lands comprising Camp Ipperwash? 24 A: That's been around for quite a long 25 time and getting to know the peoples, you know, of Kettle

1 and Stony Point is, you know, that's something that's 2 always been there as far as I can remember. 3 And different families and -- have raised 4 that -- those -- their concerns and the people who were 5 from or who are descendants of Stoney Point was always 6 looking at and saying that there would come a day, 7 hopefully there would be come a day when they would be 8 able to go back home. 9 And so those kinds of stories and, you 10 know, it was heartfelt and -- and hoping that, yeah, that 11 would be nice, you know, to be able to see the day when - 12 - when they can go home. So, that's been there for a 13 long time. 14 Q: And when -- when you had these 15 discussions with the individuals or families concerning 16 the ability to go home and the wish to go home, what was 17 your understanding as to what lands they wished to go 18 home to in terms of the physical boundaries or, if you 19 will? 20 A: We knew that -- and at different 21 times in the past, you know, there was families that 22 showed me the perimeters of the Military Base and -- and 23 the beach. And I also was aware of between the Military 24 Base and the lands in between there, there's some -- 25 there's a strip of land there that -- that the non-Native

1 people are living also. 2 Q: I'm sorry, between the Base and 3 where? 4 A: Kettle Point. 5 Q: Okay. All right. And, just for 6 clarity, did -- did you understand there to be any claims 7 in relation to the Park area? 8 A: What was the question again? 9 Q: Did you understand there to be any 10 claims or, at least, that the Ipperwash Provincial Park 11 was part of that home territory as pointed out to you? 12 A: Oh yeah. When you look at the land, 13 whether it's Provincial Park or Military, it -- the 14 people of the lands who are from there look at it as 15 their homelands. It doesn't matter whether it's under 16 the Parks or whether it under the Military Base, you look 17 at it as one (1) piece. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: As a whole piece. 20 Q: And is the basis of your information 21 then the actual relaying to you by families of their 22 belief and their history? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And is there any other basis that 25 informed your belief in that respect?

1 A: Back a few years ago we were asked to 2 come and partake in -- in their ceremonies. And I was 3 part of that, I was part of the group that was asked to - 4 - to come and heard many stories of the sacredness of the 5 land of the people of Kettle Point and Stoney Point. 6 And back in the past, several hundred 7 years ago, that was a meeting place for many nations that 8 came across from all over. And people came there at 9 certain times of the seasons and certain times of the 10 year. And sometimes people -- the meetings went on for 11 months and sometimes I would assume that it was longer 12 than that. 13 The place was well known not only for its 14 healing and for people who came there to do healing work, 15 but it was also a place where they come to get certain 16 stones that the flints were made from. It's one of the 17 best places that you can get, you know. 18 So, there was, I suppose, many trades that 19 -- and that was the history of our peoples, was that, 20 again, is that how -- where do we go to assist and to 21 help each others in time of need. And a lot of that was, 22 again, is that what -- how do we use these weapons in our 23 -- for our hunting purposes, you know. And so -- or even 24 for us, for our people, in the farming, in the farming 25 that we did and -- at that time.

1 And so it became -- I became more aware of 2 -- of the community and -- and the resources and what -- 3 you know, it has a history of its past. I was very 4 intrigued by it and understanding what those where. 5 Q: And did you also form an 6 understanding based on -- on what you heard from the 7 people concerning the nature of why it was that they were 8 unable to go home and what it was that caused them to 9 leave there in the first place? 10 A: Yes. Again, in trying to -- to take 11 a look at, you know, the picture, get a full picture of 12 what happened, how did they lose their lands and who made 13 those decisions for those things to happen, and try to 14 understand what was going on, you know, outside of Kettle 15 and Stony Point, what was Canada thinking at that time, 16 it they were -- if it was, is that I would look at Canada 17 and then why take land away from Native people when you 18 have so many other -- such big chunks of land that you 19 could put any military base on. You know, why take it 20 from the native people? 21 So, there was an agenda, you know, that 22 was done and how to disturb and how to disrupt, you know, 23 that lifestyle and what they knew it as to be. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: So, you get to learn that and look

1 into it and to see where that thinking comes from. 2 Q: All right. Now, what was your first 3 formal involvement in the Camp Ipperwash dispute? 4 A: I was asked by Bob -- Bob Antone to 5 assist him to do a workshop for the Military and that was 6 early part of that spring, I think it was, of that year. 7 Q: Do you under -- who -- where did the 8 original, or least where did the request to conduct this 9 seminar originate from? 10 A: It was from the Military. 11 Q: Okay. And did you have any under -- 12 what was your understanding as to what it was that the 13 Military, and this is the Military I take it, at Camp 14 Ipperwash; is that right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: What is it that they wished to 17 receive from you in terms of a seminar? 18 A: As I understand is that our job was 19 to create an awareness and -- and also to be able to 20 address to the spiritual aspects of what the land means 21 to us as a people. 22 And with that in mind, I -- we, you know, 23 the rumours was that -- that the military base was going 24 to be less and less and less each year and that there's 25 that time coming where -- where Canada or the Province of

1 Ontario are going to be working together to be able to 2 give the land back to -- back to the people of Stoney 3 Point. 4 Q: And I wonder if you would just look 5 at for a moment, the document at Tab 4 of your brief. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And it's Inquiry Document Number 10 4000328. It's a article by the Globe and Mail and it's 11 dated Saturday, July 15, 1995. And you'll see -- I'll 12 just read a little bit for you at the beginning of the 13 article: 14 "With tensions rising because of an 15 increasingly violent aboriginal 16 occupation of this military camp, two 17 (2) key Oneida negotiators from the 18 1990 Oka crisis have begun talks to 19 negotiate a peaceful resolution. 20 Captain Doug Smith, commander of the 21 Military Police Detachment at the camp 22 on Lake Huron said in an interview that 23 when he arrived on June 28th, quote, 24 'tensions in the area were escalating 25 to the point where they were about to

1 go out of control. There was genuine 2 fear that what could happen here could 3 turn into something similar to Oka.'" 4 Close quote. 5 Now, was it your understanding that one 6 (1) of the reasons why the Military requested that you 7 assist in putting on this cross-cultural awareness 8 training session was to deal with the Military's 9 perception of the environment that was going on in the -- 10 at Camp Ipperwash in terms of the occupation and the 11 military presence? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And did you have -- did 14 you have direct dealings with Captain Smith at this time? 15 A: Again, Bob and I -- it was mainly -- 16 Bob was the one that was, you know, was more in contact 17 with him than I was. You know, I was there with him and, 18 you know, we -- we heard the concerns in -- in -- in 19 talking with him and also our -- made it fairly well 20 aware to him that we had to -- we also have the 21 responsibility to give whatever -- whatever the 22 discussions were, you know, to -- to the people of -- of 23 Stoney Point. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: So, you know, whatever concerns he

1 had we had to bring it to them too. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And -- and just going back to the -- 5 the seminar itself, did -- was a -- a cross-cultural 6 awareness seminar, in fact, conducted for the benefit of 7 the Military? 8 A: Yes, there was. 9 Q: And do you recall when it was 10 conducted? 11 A: The exact dates, no. 12 Q: Could you kindly look at Tab 1 -- 13 A: Tab 1. 14 Q: -- of your brief. It's Inquiry 15 Document Number 7000321 and it is a -- a note -- 16 confidential note prepared by Captain Smith, noted as 17 being the Tactical Commander for Camp Ipperwash. 18 The first item refers to the cultural -- 19 cross-cultural awareness training being conducted and 20 that several high ranking native negotiators are present. 21 Now, my understanding is that this seminar 22 occurred on July 13th and 14th of 1995. 23 Does that sound about right to you? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And was it, therefore, prior to the

1 occupation of the built-up area by members of the Stoney 2 Point Group? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And were there other individuals at - 5 - at 2(C), it's indicated that the seminar was completed 6 and that the following persons were in attendance as -- 7 as facilitators included Captain David Scandrett of the 8 Canadian Rangers; do you recall him? It's page 1. 9 A: Yeah. I don't recall. I know that 10 there was a lot of people there -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: -- but I can't remember exactly what 13 their roles were. And up to that time, Canadian Rangers, 14 you know, I've heard of them or I heard of the outfit, 15 but I really didn't know what they did up until that 16 time, and so we had a chance to, again, you know, as they 17 introduced themselves and what their roles and 18 responsibilities is, do you become aware of, you know, 19 what their -- what their role is. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: So, it's an educational part, yes. 22 Q: And what did you -- what did you 23 understand their role to be relative to this matter? 24 A: The -- the Rangers, as we got to -- 25 we got a chance to talk to -- it might have been this --

1 this person, this Captain David, is that maybe that was - 2 - you know, if -- if it was him, but we talked -- there 3 was two (2) individuals that we talked to and their role, 4 as they explained to us was that to be able to help 5 communities in time of crisis, whether it's to bring in 6 generators or -- for electricity or -- or build a bridge, 7 or repair a bridge if need be, in a crisis situation. 8 And -- and so that was interesting to know 9 that -- that a communities we, you know, we can ask for 10 these assistance and for their help. 11 Q: And it lists here that there was a 12 Leigh Jensen, native education policy unit with the 13 Ministry of Education and Training at Ontario. Do you 14 recall that person or someone -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: He was there. And Priscilla George, 17 Native Education Policy Unit, again with the Ministry of 18 Education and Training Ontario? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Paul Trivett, who I understood was a 21 police constable with the OPP in the First Nations 22 policing section. Do you recall him being there? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And also Constable Murray Wood, again 25 with the OPP in the First Nations policing section?

1 A: I don't remember. 2 Q: All right. Apparently there was a 3 reporter from the Globe and Mail there by the name of 4 Peter Moon? Do you recall that? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. Dick Bressette, as an elder 7 from Kettle and Stony Point First Nation? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Bob Antone, as a negotiator? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And yourself, again, as a negotiator? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And can you tell us what types 14 of topics were discussed by yourself and Mr. Antone at 15 this two (2) day seminar? 16 A: Again, it's taking a look at what the 17 land means to -- to our people. Because it seems to be 18 that they were thinking it -- Military Base, as they were 19 looking at the former Military Base and that there's all 20 kinds of ammunition being buried or, you know, back out 21 there, is that what good is that land to the people of 22 Stoney Point. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: And so there was -- you know, the 25 talks were that there was going to be -- it would take a

1 long time to -- to clean the area, so how did that entail 2 and what was that all about. 3 And so our thing was to try to sensitize, 4 I guess, the Military in terms of what the land means to 5 us, no matter what state it's in. And then how do we, 6 you know, yeah, how do we clean it up and how soon can 7 that land revert back to -- to the original people's. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: So, our thing was to be able to -- to 10 address to that and -- and at the same time I guess to 11 put a, you know, a time of when the -- when the land 12 would be reverted back to the people. So our role was 13 mainly to -- I guess to get both sides to see as to why 14 it had to take this process. 15 Q: So, to facilitate an understanding 16 not just with respect to the Military in terms of letting 17 them understand why the land was important, but also to 18 the aboriginal people to understand what practical issues 19 there were involved? 20 A: That's right, yeah. 21 Q: And what was your -- what was the 22 response by the Military to the teachings that you 23 provided, from your -- based on your observations? 24 A: There was very little understanding 25 of our cultural heritage and what those -- what the land

1 means to us. And so we had to kind of walk them through 2 it, doing little ceremonies just to get them -- to 3 sensitize them to understand where our people were coming 4 from on that. 5 Q: All right. And what, if anything, 6 did you learn in terms of the Military's attitudes 7 towards the occupying members of the Stoney Point group 8 as a result of this cross-cultural awareness training 9 seminar? 10 A: We -- after each session we sit down 11 and -- and do an evaluation in terms of did, you know, 12 did we address to, did we, you know, with the topics and 13 -- and do we feel that they're ready to go to the next 14 level. There are different stages that we go through. 15 And -- and so we were looking at that, that there were 16 going to be many more meetings that needed to happen. 17 Q: So, then it was anticipated that this 18 was the first -- 19 A: It was the -- 20 Q: -- step? 21 A: -- first one. Yeah, first step. 22 Q: And did you communicate what you 23 learned from the Military to members of the -- the Stoney 24 Point group who were at the Camp? 25 A: Yes, we did.

1 Q: And what did you convey to them? 2 A: What we try as much of what we can is 3 to be able to, again, to bring it to their attention of - 4 - that there were talks and that there was the beginning 5 stages of -- of addressing to them getting their lands 6 back, so... 7 Q: And what was their -- their response 8 to the information that you provided? 9 A: I think in any situation like that I 10 could just, you know, imagine the anticipation of some of 11 the elders, is that they don't have a whole lot of time 12 and so the sooner the better. And some, again, maybe for 13 the younger generation, is that as we hear, again, 14 promises, you know, and when is that -- you know, the 15 reality of -- of that going to happen. 16 So, we can only convey of what we felt and 17 what we were asked to, you know, to -- to participate in 18 and but there was a process, a beginning process. 19 Q: All right. Commissioner, before we 20 move on, I'd like to make this document the next exhibit 21 for clarification of the record, please. 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Exhibit is P-271, 23 your Honour. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-271. 25

1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-271: Document 7000321 July 2 13,14/'95 OP Maple, situation 3 report No. 013 from Capt. 4 W.D. Smith, Tactical 5 Commander, Camp Ipperwash 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: We will come back to this document in 9 a little bit, Mr. Elijah, but I wonder if I can move onto 10 another topic for the moment. 11 A: Sure. 12 Q: Up to this point in time, that is the 13 time of the cross-cultural awareness training seminar, 14 had you already had discussions with members of the 15 Stoney Point group who were occupying the land about 16 their intentions to -- to occupy and reclaim the Camp 17 Ipperwash lands? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And over what period of time did 20 these -- or I should put it this way, when did these 21 discussions start? 22 A: Right around that time, in July, was 23 that there was more. They had requested as to a lot of 24 the questions that they had was how do we deal with the 25 Oka crisis, what would be, you know, the proper

1 procedures or -- and what not to do or get themselves 2 into. 3 So, that was many of the discussions at 4 that time. 5 Q: And based on what you advised us 6 earlier, had there been a request for assistance made at 7 that -- by the -- the Stoney Point group to the Oneida 8 nation or to the longhouse for your assistance? 9 A: That happened later on. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Yeah. It wasn't at that time. 12 Q: So, in this -- at this time was your 13 involvement more in the nature of an informal 14 involvement? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, you indicated that they wished 17 to know some of -- of your advice with respect to how to 18 do things and how not to do things. Can you tell us what 19 advice you gave to these members with respect to what 20 they should do and what they shouldn't do? 21 A: It seems to, at that time, that the 22 Military Base was going to be handed back to the people 23 at Stoney Point; seems like that was -- you could see 24 that in the horizon that that was going to happen. With 25 -- with the Park, that was another -- another issue.

1 And so I -- again, I, you know, I didn't 2 deal with it as much at that time with the Park, because 3 that -- in the -- you know, that's in the season when the 4 Park is open to the public and so we had, you know, part 5 of what I had said to them, I remember, was stating that 6 why don't you wait until after, you know, after the 7 season is over with. 8 Q: All right. And that's with respect 9 to plans to occupy the Park? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: And what was the rationale behind 12 your advice that they should wait until after the Park -- 13 sorry, the season, closed? 14 A: There's less people. 15 Q: Did you provide them with any other 16 advice in relation to what they -- how they should go 17 about this proposed occupation of the Park? 18 A: No. 19 Q: All right. Earlier, prior to July of 20 1995, had you had discussions with individuals from the 21 Stoney Point group, the -- concerning the advisability of 22 occupying lands? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And in that relation, who did you 25 have conversations primarily with?

1 A: With the elders. And whenever -- 2 whenever I met with the Elders then we always met with 3 their daughters or their sons or relatives and so it was 4 -- and there was children, too, sitting and we sat with 5 them and talked to them about what the process would be 6 in -- in, you know, it is most -- I guess we're looking 7 at again, is that how do you do it in a peaceful way. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. And when did those 9 conversations happen in relation to either the occupation 10 of the Camp or the Park? Was it before one of those 11 events or -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Which? When? Before which event? 14 A: Before the shooting incident there 15 was many meetings that took place and some we were 16 invited to -- to potluck and social events and, again, 17 that's an awareness, you know. 18 And there was topics listed in terms of 19 what, you know, what -- what the topics would be. And 20 so, again, ours was to identify what -- what those 21 concerns would be. 22 Q: All right. And, just so that I can 23 understand a little better the timeframe over which these 24 discussions occurred -- 25 A: Hmm hmm.

1 Q: -- did they commence after the 2 occupation of the Camp in May of '93 or before? 3 A: After. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And were there -- which -- who were 7 the primary elders with whom you had the majority of your 8 discussions? 9 A: I can't remember offhand. 10 Q: Okay. Is it fair to say that they 11 were elders who were self-identified as having had 12 ancestral connections -- 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: -- to the Stoney Point Reserve? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. You indicated that there 17 was a desire to understand how to carry out an occupation 18 in a peaceful manner. What advice then did you give in 19 relation to how that might be accomplished? 20 A: One (1) of the grandmas had mentioned 21 that, she says, Do we tell our sons, our men to -- to go 22 in and take the land back. And I say, No that would be 23 the wrong move because if the men go in then the police 24 will come in or the Military will come in and they know 25 how to deal with men, you know, We'll shoot them.

1 And, I said, The best way to do it is -- 2 is get the grandmas and the children to do it. I says, 3 They don't know how to deal with that. 4 Q: And did you have any other advice in 5 terms of conduct of the people when they are -- once they 6 were onto the land? 7 A: We had several meetings with them 8 that they had called us to sit in or to ask us if we 9 would come in and say what is the next step, you know, to 10 do, yes. 11 Q: All right. And -- and what steps did 12 you suggest? 13 A: What -- again we come back to, you 14 know, what is it that they want, you know, the things 15 that -- they've been living on the land, you know, and 16 the surrounding areas, designated area, and -- 17 Q: Of the Camp, Ipperwash? 18 A: Yeah. Yeah. And so it was just a 19 matter of, you know, coming in to the Camp itself where 20 the buildings are, so... 21 Q: Hmm hmm. Did you provide them with 22 any advice concerning whether or not there should be 23 firearms of any kind? 24 A: No. 25 Q: You didn't provide them with advice

1 or you didn't -- 2 A: We -- no. What we did was we -- we, 3 as negotiators, is that we hardly ever get involved with 4 where there's -- there's guns or weapons involved. It 5 just doesn't make sense. You know, that's -- that's sort 6 of how we -- how we do things. 7 If, in -- in a crisis situation where 8 there is, then again, how do we come in to, you know, to 9 put the weapons down, because that doesn't make sense, 10 you know. Again, ours is to avoid bloodshed. 11 Q: And did you convey this as one (1) of 12 your -- one (1) of your ground rules to these 13 individuals? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: If your advice had been -- well, 16 okay. And you referred to a particular conversation with 17 -- with one of the grandmas; can you recall which grandma 18 that was? 19 A: Glenn George's mother. 20 Q: Okay. All right. As of then, the 21 early summer of 1995, prior to the cross-cultural 22 training session, were you aware then of -- of any 23 considerations by the occupiers to move into, ultimately, 24 the built-up area? 25 A: I had heard rumours about it, but

1 personally, myself, to -- somebody to talk to me about 2 it, no. 3 Q: All right. So, these were general 4 conversations that you were involved in -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- seeking general advice? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: You didn't have any information or 9 understanding about things like the timing of this 10 possible -- 11 A: I had no idea. 12 Q: Thank you. Now, I'd like to address 13 next, the period following the cross-cultural awareness 14 training seminar. And there was a period following July 15 13th and 14th -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would this 17 be a good time to take a break? 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's almost 20 10:30 and -- 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- it certainly is 22 convenient and I was just seeking advice from My 23 Colleague. We certainly could. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 25 would be a good time to take a morning break.

1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. Thank you. 2 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 3 for fifteen (15) minutes. 4 5 --- Upon recessing at 10:26 a.m. 6 --- Upon resuming at 10:43 a.m. 7 8 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 9 resumed. Please be seated. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 THE WITNESS: I'd like to address next, 14 the period following July 13th and 14th, or the cross- 15 cultural awareness training seminar up to the occupation 16 of the built-up area, so the time between mid July and 17 the -- and the end of July, essentially. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: Now, as I understand your earlier 21 evidence, the Oneida longhouse will not send people into 22 another aboriginal community without an invitation or 23 request and you indicated just before the break that at 24 least as of the time of the seminar, that request had -- 25 had not been received?

1 A: As far as I know, that it hadn't up 2 to that point, but there were -- there were talks about 3 that leading up to that -- 4 Q: All right. 5 A: -- as to what the procedures and what 6 the protocol would be. 7 Q: And did you provide that information 8 to -- to anyone? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: Who did you provide that information 11 to? 12 A: Again, to the elders and to the women 13 and -- and their families. 14 Q: All right. And was a request 15 ultimately received by the longhouse for assistance? 16 A: It was. 17 Q: And from whom was it received? 18 A: Again, I can't say because I wasn't 19 there. 20 Q: All right. Was it -- can you tell me 21 whether it was from the representatives of the Stoney 22 Point Group who were occupying the land, or the Kettle 23 and Stony Point Band itself? 24 A: It was the people of Stoney Point. 25 Q: All right. And do you recall

1 approximately when that request was received, 2 approximately? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: I don't know, but it was, you know, 7 leading up to I think it was just before the shooting 8 incident. 9 Q: All right. And so you believe it was 10 after -- after the occupation of the built-up area? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Possibly, was it after the occupation 13 of the Park commenced? 14 A: In or around there. 15 Q: Okay, thank you. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 All right. I wonder if you would go next 20 to Tab 1 of your binder and it's Inquiry Document Number 21 7000321 and it's Exhibit P-271. 22 We looked at this document earlier, I'd 23 like to draw your attention to -- it's the third page of 24 the document, but it's noted as being page 2 of 4. 25 This is the notes by Captain Smith. And

1 you'll see at Tab, or sorry, Item 3C-A. Particularly, it 2 says: 3 "During the process of the CCAT, a plan 4 of action was developed that would 5 enable the Military to mediate its way 6 out of this situation. 7 This plan also presented a means of 8 immediately reducing tension between 9 the Stoney Point group and Military 10 persons of Camp Ipperwash and in the 11 near future, will provide a means of 12 ensuring the environmental assessment 13 is completed in conjunction with the -- 14 with an orderly hand over of the land 15 to Kettle and Stony Point Band/Stoney 16 Point group. 17 The plan is -- as outlined as follows 18 and a detailed plan will be developed 19 over the next two (2) weeks." 20 And Item A refers to the holding of a 21 meeting or native circle to be held on the Oneida reserve 22 to be conducted over five (5) days starting August 26th, 23 1995 to be attended by various individuals including 24 yourself and Bob Antone and various elders, 25 representative from the OPP, representative from Kettle

1 and Stony Point Band police, Captain Scandrett of the 2 Rangers and et cetera. 3 Then at B it indicates that: 4 "The meeting will be conducted with a 5 view to determining the following: 6 Establish a plan that will allow the 7 environmental assessment clean up to be 8 completed in a secure manner and in a 9 manner that is satisfactory to the 10 natives, 11 M. M. Dillon..." 12 Who I understand was the -- the agency 13 that might be cleaning it up, 14 "...and the Military. And to establish 15 a plan that will allow the military to 16 meet its obligations of due care and 17 diligence with respect to the signing 18 and jurisdiction of the area, until the 19 environmental clean up and hand over is 20 complete, and to establish a plan that 21 will allow the Kettle and Stony Point 22 Band police to begin a joint patrol law 23 enforcement on the training area prior 24 to and during the clean up, 25 essentially"

1 Do you recall there being plans to hold 2 such a meeting or native circle at which these items 3 would be discussed and negotiated? 4 A: There was talks, again, of -- of 5 different procedures as to how that would be addressed 6 and this -- that particular one I don't believe I was 7 there for that one. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: But there was, yeah, there was -- you 10 know, again, recommendations and suggestions in terms of 11 how can we get --if there was any way that we were going 12 to facilitate the process, then we were willing to do 13 that at -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: -- at that time, yes. 16 Q: And if you look next at Tab 3, this 17 is Inquiry Document Number 7000338. It's another 18 confidential memorandum or notes by Captain Smith for the 19 period, July 24 to July 26th, 1995 and if you look at 20 item 2(C), it indicates that: 21 "During the past twenty-four (24) 22 hours, the following has been 23 determined. Bob Antone and Bruce 24 Elijah have been in contact with Glenn 25 George at least three (3) times. All

1 three (3) meetings were positive and 2 the Stoney Point Group remains 3 interested in attending a native 4 circle. 5 All Parties are concerned about the 6 probable Stoney Point Group reaction 7 when they are -- when they are 8 officially informed that the meeting of 9 August 26th is now cancelled." 10 Turn over the next page: 11 "Bob Antone and Bruce Elijah will meet 12 with Tom Bressette, 25th or 26th of 13 July, 1995 with a view to convincing 14 him to sponsor the meeting scheduled 15 for July -- August 26th, '95 and the 16 Ministry of Natural Resources has 17 erected a large sign on the Military 18 beach side of Ipperwash advising 19 campers not to proceed west of the 20 Ipperwash boundary." 21 Now, do you recall, firstly, whether or 22 not you had a meeting -- well, firstly let me ask this, 23 do you -- do you have any understanding as to why the 24 August 26th meeting was -- is now cancelled or was 25 cancelled?

1 A: What we always try to do is that 2 whenever any of the parties is -- is in these sessions, 3 in -- in these meetings is that if something comes up for 4 reasons why, that things get cancelled and then as soon 5 as was hear that from one (1) of the parties, then we 6 always take a look at what would be the following dates 7 that people would be available to do that. There was 8 many meetings that was cancelled, you know. This was not 9 the only one. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: But, you know, again, we're looking 12 at when can we, you know, bring all the parties together? 13 Q: But wasn't it at this time that the 14 concept of having a meeting which would accomplish or 15 attempt to accomplish the items that we just reviewed -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- was not going to happen, it's 18 just that it couldn't happen on that particular day? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: All right. Could we make this the 21 next exhibit, Commissioner? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-272. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 25

1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-272: Document 7000338 July 24, 2 26/'95 OP Maple, situation 3 report No. 023 from Capt. W. 4 D. Smith, Tactical Commander, 5 Camp Ipperwash 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: And would you also look, please, at 9 Tab 44 of your book; it's Inquiry Document Number 10 7000573. 11 It appears to be another typed memorandum 12 or notes originating from the Military. And at the 13 bottom of the first page there's a report that the 14 cultural -- cross-cultural awareness training was 15 conducted at Camp Ipperwash July 13th to 14th to assist 16 Military Police and Camp staff in understanding native 17 issues and actions, which you've talked about. 18 And then on page -- the following page -- 19 under page 3, there's -- under Item -- Item 8, I think it 20 is for: 21 "Following discussions with the Camp 22 staff and MPs, Bob Antone and Bruce 23 Elijah proposed a traditional meeting - 24 - native meeting -- a circle be held at 25 a neutral site on August 26th. The day

1 coincides with, quote "new moon", close 2 quote and has native significance and 3 outlines the same objectives." 4 And that's the -- that's again, the same - 5 - the meeting that we were talking about that -- that was 6 cancelled. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: All right. So, make this the next 9 exhibit, please? 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-273. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-273. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-273: Document 7000573 July 13- 14 17,'95 summary of recent 15 developments 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: Now, were you able to have a meeting 19 the Chief Tom Bressette as was proposed to talk about the 20 possible sponsorship by the Band of this meeting? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Do you recall what the outcome of 23 that meeting was? 24 A: The majority of the time that we had 25 meetings with Tom was that he -- he couldn't come out and

1 say that, This is what we're going to do. What he would 2 always say is that he has to get back to his Council and 3 then they'd let us know, you know, if it was -- 4 Q: All right. 5 A: -- yeah. So, that's how things 6 happened. 7 Q: And did you -- I'm sorry. 8 A: And just, you know, again, for your 9 information, is that what -- what we do or what I do is 10 that when -- when we're having meetings, is that they 11 mention there again of -- of the new moon phases, is that 12 that's when we have meetings, is on a new moon phases. 13 Because if you have a meeting on a full 14 moon it does not happen. And if you have -- try to have 15 a meeting after the full moon it doesn't happen in -- in 16 a last quarter. 17 So, majority of, again, you know, of 18 practices is that to have a good meeting and to have, you 19 know, some of these -- if there's any decision or an 20 agreement happens, then it's usually on a new moon 21 phases. So, that's part of, again, you know, my 22 availability is that, you know, it's on those phases. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Now, you indicated that -- that Glenn

1 George and others were -- were supportive of this meeting 2 originally? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did that support change or did 5 that view change at anytime? 6 A: I think there's always a precaution 7 on all parties, again, is that who, you know, who the 8 representatives are and who -- and it's part of what we 9 do, is that it's not us to decide as to who sits at the 10 table. What we try to do as much as what we can is to 11 have all the parties represented, and they will be chosen 12 by their own -- their own communities. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And the planning of this meeting of 16 course was in -- in July of 1995, that's when it was at 17 least being discussed for the later date, and was -- was 18 a new meeting date ever established? 19 A: I don't know. Again, that part, I 20 was probably in another part of the country, so I wasn't 21 aware of that one. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: How was this left, the issue of 25 trying to have a -- a meeting, a joint meeting to discuss

1 these issues of the turnover -- turnover of the property, 2 how was it left when -- when you left the situation? 3 A: Around what time would that be? 4 Q: Well, I'd have to ask you. My 5 understanding is that a meeting, to your knowledge, was 6 not re-established because you -- at least, you left the 7 situation. 8 A: Hmm hmm. Whenever -- whenever I'm 9 not there, there's always somebody that steps in -- 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: -- to take my place. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: Again, I'm not the only person that, 14 you know -- meetings -- or -- happens or doesn't happen 15 not because of me, you know, my availability, is that 16 there are other things that I do across the country that 17 I'm called for. So, you know, again the question comes 18 back, is that was I there at that one? No, I wasn't. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: Then you have no knowledge as to 22 whether or not a new date was set; is that fair? 23 A: No. 24 Q: All right. I wonder if you would -- 25 I wonder if we would go to Tab 2, please, of your

1 documents brief. It's Inquiry Document Number 7000324. 2 And this is a report by Captain Smith for 3 the period July 13 to 15, 1995. In Item 1(C): 4 "A Native activity during the reported 5 period to -- through observation of the 6 built-up area continued occupation in 7 the Military beach. IAW, paragraph 4 8 of Reference A, Bob Antone and Bruce 9 Elijah were observed meeting with Glenn 10 George and several others on the 11 Military beach during the evening of 12 July 13, 1995. The results of this 13 meeting have not been officially 14 conveyed to this office but the lack of 15 Stoney Point group activity suggests 16 they were successful". 17 Do you have any recollection as to what -- 18 what was going on at that time which caused you to meet 19 with certain individuals? 20 A: In any season, July 13 is a hot day 21 in this part of the country, so the day that they had 22 called for this meeting is -- I mean, we didn't want to 23 have a meeting in a closed room. 24 Q: No. 25 A: So we, you know, we always said -- I

1 always said, well, there's the beach, you know. Why 2 don't we sit, you know, in the water and we'll have a 3 meeting and cool, you know. And so that's what that one 4 was. 5 Q: Yeah, I was more interested in the 6 content or what gave rise to the meeting. We understand 7 this was during the period, remember, that you were 8 conducting the cross-cultural training awareness -- 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: -- and earlier we looked at that. 11 I -- 12 A: What we were -- what we were talking 13 about at that time was -- was -- there was a group of 14 people coming from up north and they wanted to have 15 ceremonies, so that's what that discussion was all about. 16 And for your information again, is that 17 the Park itself is -- is a very sacred place and that was 18 pointed out to me by the elders and by the people of 19 Stoney Point that, again, you know, going back to what I 20 had said previously is that many years ago there was many 21 people that came for healing and stayed for long periods 22 of time until they were well and were able, you know, 23 then to go back home -- 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: -- and so part of what the people of

1 Stoney Point were talking about at that time was that 2 when would they be able to use the facility, you know, 3 for that purpose of -- of healing, because there was many 4 people from across the country who were -- who wanted to 5 come there for that purpose. 6 So, that meeting, that's what that one was 7 about. 8 Q: So, had the -- had the military 9 expressed a concern to you about the -- the activity of 10 people from outside coming on to the Camp Ipperwash 11 property for whether -- ever -- whatever purposes, 12 ceremonies or otherwise? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And -- 15 A: There was concerns, yeah. 16 Q: And this meeting was intended to try 17 to resolve or at least address those -- 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: -- concerns? And how -- how were the 20 concerns addressed? 21 A: Again to bring the -- all parties and 22 inform them of what the discussions was during, you know, 23 for their information. 24 Q: Did you advise the military as to 25 what you had discovered in terms of why people were

1 coming in -- onto the Camp Ipperwash? 2 A: As part of the awareness, yes. 3 Q: All right. And what did you tell 4 them? 5 A: Told them that there's possibilities 6 that there would be a set time when -- when there would 7 be people coming in to -- to attend ceremonies. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Did -- and what was the military's 11 response? 12 A: Well, they -- they -- I guess in 13 anybody is that what they were looking for is that what 14 is the intent and what, you know, what is the outcome 15 going to be, looking at is there going to be, you know, 16 problems with that or, you know, and ours was to, you 17 know, to let them know that there wasn't, and there was 18 just these ceremonies that were going to be taking place. 19 Q: All right. We'd like to make this 20 the next exhibit please, Commissioner. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-274. 22 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-274: Document 7000324 July 13- 25 15/'95 OP Maple, situation

1 report No. 014 from Capt. W. 2 D. Smith, Tactical Commander, 3 Camp Ipperwash 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: And if you would return to Tab 3, 7 which is Exhibit P-272, or Inquiry Document 7000338. 8 Item 2(C) in particular. I'll read from it: 9 "During the past twenty-four (24) hours 10 the following has been determined..." 11 And I should indicate this is a report by 12 the Military for the period July 24 to 26, '95. 13 "...the following has been determined. 14 Bob Antone and Bruce Elijah have been 15 in contact with Glenn George at least 16 three (3) times. All three (3) 17 meetings were positive and the Stoney 18 Point group remains interested in 19 attending a native circle." 20 And we talked about that a little bit 21 earlier, but my question here is, do you recall having 22 approximately three (3) meetings with Glenn George and 23 others by July 25th? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you've told us, one (1) of the

1 purposes of the meetings was with respect to the issue of 2 having ceremonies and individuals coming from outside the 3 community to attend. What were the other topics or major 4 topics that were being discussed? 5 A: Again, it's -- it's the well-being of 6 -- of the families. And the -- one of the -- one of the 7 things that they wanted to do was -- requesting, was that 8 they wanted to have workshops for -- for the women, for 9 the ladies, for the grandmas and so part of that 10 discussion was -- was taking place too. 11 And we had brought in some of the clan 12 mothers from my community to -- to meet with them and to 13 -- to set up of how that was going to happen. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: So, that was part of the discussions 16 at that time. 17 Q: And were you also relaying, at least 18 facilitating discussions around concerns that the 19 Military -- sorry, that the environmental assessment had 20 to be done in a certain way and -- and the Military's 21 position on that versus the Stoney Point group's position 22 on that? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And can you just recall for us what, 25 if any, difficulties or concerns there were as between

1 the two (2) organizations with respect to the conduct of 2 an environmental assessment? 3 A: I've only heard what the concerns 4 was. I wasn't involved with -- I knew that that was 5 going to happen. I knew that that's supposed to happen. 6 So that wasn't my thing. And so I heard the concerns and 7 I heard, you know, there was companies that was going to 8 do the -- the cleanup. 9 I heard, you know, rumours and I heard 10 names of that, but I -- I wasn't really into that because 11 I knew that that was going to happen, there was other 12 parties and other people who were going to be doing that. 13 Q: All right. 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: So, that wasn't an issue with which 16 you had specific -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: -- concern? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Or at least involvement I should say? 21 A: Yeah. And, again, in -- whenever we 22 come in to -- to help and to support, we have to look at 23 that. So, that's another -- you know, that's not what my 24 role is. My role is to deal with a crisis, you know, or 25 hopefully to avoid crisis.

1 Q: All right. Okay. 2 A: Okay. So, there are people who -- 3 who were there who, you know, who were addressing to 4 that, to those concerns and hopefully, you know, to be 5 able to resolve that. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Do you know who those other persons 9 were? 10 A: No, I don't. 11 Q: Did you have -- you indicated you had 12 some discussions with Chief Tom Bressette from time to 13 time, did you have any discussions that were specifically 14 in relation to the -- the advisability or propriety of 15 the occupation by these members of the Stoney Point group 16 of the Camp Ipperwash lands? 17 A: Again, in talking to -- to Tom, there 18 was, I guess, from his, you know, political arena, is 19 that, you know, he says, you know, and that's what he 20 goes by even to this day, is that when he is representing 21 the -- the people of Kettle Point and Stoney Point, 22 that's his role, and then would take a look at, you know, 23 the people of Stoney Point who -- who are there; you 24 know, there's two (2) different entities, two (2) 25 different peoples.

1 And so, again, you know, what we -- I have 2 to be reminded of what my role is, is to be able to give 3 those parties an opportunity to be able to address their 4 concerns and to carry it out. So, in talking with him, 5 yes, we were looking at how to resolve this and how do 6 we, you know, carry on with -- without interfering with 7 their -- or what he has to do. 8 Q: All right. Okay. And in -- in the 9 course of assessing, of course, the needs or -- of the 10 people in terms of what you could do to assist, was one 11 of the needs identified by you the -- evolve around the 12 working relations between the Band Chief and Band Council 13 on the one hand and the Stoney Point group on the other? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And did you -- were you able to take 16 any steps towards trying to facilitate the establishment 17 of a working relationship? 18 A: I believe that we made some headways, 19 you know, and, you know, whether all parties were 20 acceptable to that, but these were the names that came up 21 and that's what I, you know, again, we don't decide as to 22 who that is but these are the names, you know, that -- 23 that are being brought by each party to sit at the table 24 for discussions. 25 Q: All right.

85
  1                 A:   Yeah.
  2                 Q:   In terms of representatives from the
  3  various organizations --
  4                 A:   Exactly.
  5                 Q:   -- to then talk about the issues that
  6  -- that bind them?
  7                 A:   That's right.
  8                 Q:   All right.  When did you first learn
  9  that the Stoney Point group or members from it, moved
 10  into the built up area of Camp Ipperwash?
 11                 A:   It was in July.
 12                 Q:   And did you have any advance notice
 13  that this event was going to happen on a particular date?
 14                 A:   No.  
 15                 Q:   Okay.  Were you contacted by -- well,
 16  let me ask you this first, how did you first find out
 17  that -- that individuals had gone into the built-up area?
 18                 A:   I was out west.  I believe I was in
 19  British Columbia and I was -- when I heard, you know,
 20  that there