1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 March 2nd, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )    (np)
  4  Donald Worme, Q.C. )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  Jodie-Lynn Waddilove)   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein ) (np)       The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )  (np)      George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       ) (np)       Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    )            (Student-at-law)
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stoney
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Sue Freeborn     )
 25  Michelle Pong    )   (np)

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (Np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )    (np)
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )
 11  
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  
 15  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 16  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 17  
 18  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 19  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 20  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 21  Peter West         ) (np)
 22  Ngai On Young      ) (np)
 23  
 24  
 25

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
  3  Karen Jones      )              Police Association &
  4  Debra Newell     )   (np)       K. Deane
  5  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
  6  Annie Leeks      )
  7  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  8  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  9  Julian Roy       )   (np)
 10  Adriel Weaver    )              (student-at-law)
 11  
 12  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
 13  Robert Ash, Q.C.  )   (np)       Coroner
 14  
 15  William Horton   )              Chiefs of Ontario
 16  Matthew Horner   )   (np)
 17  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 18  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 19  Erin Tully       )   (np)
 20  Craig Mills      )
 21  Megan Mackey     )   (np)
 22  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 23  Anna Perschy     )
 24  Melissa Panjer   )   (np)
 25  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 7 THOMAS MICHAEL BRESSETTE, Resumed: 8 9 Continued Examination-In-Chief 10 by Mr. Derry Millar 9 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 196 12 13 Certificate of Transcript 296 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 P-242 Document Number 9000036 Letter 4 from E.E. Hobbs and Associates 5 Ltd. To Chief Thomas Bressette 6 Re: Grievances and long outstanding 7 issues confronting the Chippewas of 8 Kettle Point and Stoney Point 9 Sept. 16/93 33 10 P-243 Document Number 9000054 Oct. 26/93 11 letter to Chief Bressette from 12 Chief Carl George Re: Kettle 13 Point/Stoney Point-National Defence 37 14 P-244 Document Number 9000058 Nov.04/93 15 fax to Kettle Point, Att. Chiefs 16 Tom Bressette and Carl George from 17 E. Anthony Ross Re: First Nations 18 Claims against Canada 38 19 P-245 Document Number 9000224 Feb.22/94 20 from Chief Tom Bressette to all 21 members of the Kettle and Stony 22 Point First Nation announcing the 23 return of the land. 46 24 25

1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-246 Document Number 3000370 Aug. 4 02/95 Press Release from the 5 Chippewas of Kettle and Stony 6 Point Re: Negotiations with Dept. 7 Of National Defence. 73 8 P-247 Document Number 9000613 Aug. 9 04/95 London Free Press Article 10 "Mercredi Mediation in Doubt" 84 11 P-248 Document Number 1009637 Aug. 12 28/95 London Free Press Article 13 "Heightened OPP Presence Unsettles 14 Campers" 89 15 P-249 Transcript- Telephone calls between 16 Chief Tom Bressette and OPP. 17 Sept. 05 - Sept. 07/95 98 18 P-250 Ipperwash Inquiry telephone calls 19 Re: OPP and Chief Tom Bressette 20 Sept. 05 - Sept. O7/95 on CD-ROM. 98 21 P-251 Document Number 10019173 page 05 22 Map of Bosanquet Township 120 23 24 25

1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 P-252 Document Number 9000268 Sept. 4 07/95, 9:25 minutes of conference 5 call, Assembly of First Nations, 6 Chief Tom Bressette giving summary 7 of events to date. 152 8 P-253 Document Number 1010726 April 9 09/96 letter to Premier Michael D. 10 Harris from Chief Tom Bressette 11 Re: Ipperwash Prov. Park. 186 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon convening at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning, everybody. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Before we begin, 11 Commissioner, I just wanted to alert everyone to what -- 12 we handed out this morning, two (2) DVD's. And the 13 DVD's are copies of a -- two (2) videos that we received 14 that we'll be dealing with with subsequent witnesses. 15 It's a video taken by a group of people 16 who are part of the -- as I understand it, the 17 investigation team, First Nations investigation team 18 after the shooting of Dudley George. 19 And so there are two (2) videos and so 20 we've created two (2) separate DVD's. 21 22 THOMAS MICHAEL BRESSETTE, Resumed: 23 24 CONTINUED EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR. 25 Q: Good morning, Chief Bressette.

1 A: Good morning. 2 Q: Before we begin I wanted to ask you 3 one (1) other question about social assistance. And 4 I've put before you Inquiry Document Number 9000487, 5 which is a Department of Indian and Northern Affairs 6 Canada document recorded by a Steve O'Brien, apparently 7 on June 11, 1993. 8 And it purportedly records a conversation 9 that day between Mr. O'Brien, Mr. Hamelin who was with 10 the Provincial Government Windsor Ministry of Consumer 11 Social Services. 12 Mr. Daniel Henry from Kettle Point and it 13 should be, as I understand it, David Henry? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: There's no Daniel Henry who -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- works for -- worked in 1993 for 18 the Kettle and Stony Point? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And Liz Thunder, the Band 21 Administrator. Prior to this morning I understand 22 you've never seen this document before? 23 A: No, I haven't. 24 Q: And were you aware of the -- of a 25 meeting or a telephone conversation between Mr. O'Brien,

1 Mr. Hamelin, Mr. Henry and Ms. Thunder back in the mid- 2 June 1993? 3 A: Well, this -- this document looks 4 like they had a -- a discussion and these are Steve 5 O'Brien's notes. And it looks like as though they were 6 dealing with the issue when Dave brought this to our 7 attention that there were, I guess, some accusations 8 going on. 9 He was withholding assistance or 10 whatever. And he wanted clarification from Steve 11 O'Brien that led to the -- all of this exchange of 12 letters that was going on. But he wanted this matter 13 cleared up and we did undertake to get a final word out 14 of the Province and out of the Federal Government with 15 regard to this. 16 Mr. Henry didn't want to get caught in 17 the middle of all of this. He's was merely the welfare 18 administrator at the time. 19 Q: But were -- were -- excuse me, were 20 you aware of this conversation? Did you have any idea - 21 - did you have any information with respect to this 22 conversation -- 23 A: No. 24 Q: -- back in June or '93? 25 A: No. I wasn't in this particular

1 meeting. I just know there were discussions that were 2 going on internally in the administration trying to deal 3 with this. 4 Q: And the -- was the Band -- the Band 5 and Council attempting to use welfare as a lever over 6 the people at the Army Camp? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And your desire was -- what was your 9 desire as Chief? 10 A: We were basically just trying to 11 continue the provision of services that we were dealing 12 all the time. I know at times Mr. Henry is very 13 diligent about doing his job. 14 And he has the regulations that state 15 where people have to be, and our jurisdiction at that 16 time was clearly outlined as the First Nation land 17 boundaries. And if people were living in say a town or 18 small village around us, and came in for assistance, he 19 would deny them. 20 And I -- I take -- I take it from the 21 discussion that went on, this turned into one (1) of 22 those kind of episodes. And we later told Mr. Henry 23 that it was out wish to continue providing that services 24 because they were our people and our belief where this 25 was still our land base.

1 So when we had that discussion, that's 2 when him and Faye Jackson who was a receptionist were 3 getting into verbal altercations with people and -- and 4 that's basically how it amounted to. 5 And I do recall it because I -- I met -- 6 distinctly remember meeting Greg George and talking with 7 him about this and he said, What are you guys doing? 8 Are you trying to use this as a means to -- to deal with 9 us. And I said, No, I -- that's not the intent. 10 And then after we had done this I showed 11 him the letters that did come in from the Federal and 12 Provincial Government outlining what they felt and the 13 direction they'd given us and he seemed satisfied at 14 that time. 15 Q: Okay. If I could then move on to a 16 different subject, in August 1993 we've seen a reference 17 to helicopters yesterday in Exhibit P-190, your letter 18 to Mr. Carl George dated August 27, 1993. 19 And did -- were you aware, or become 20 aware, of an alleged shooting of a helicopter at the 21 Army Camp on -- on or about August 23, 1993? 22 A: Yes, I heard about it I guess the 23 morning after it happened because there was a lot of 24 discussion in the community and it was reported to us 25 that there was some type of police action going on, so

1 many of the membership were out and about -- drove down 2 there to see what was going on. 3 Q: And did you drive down to the Army 4 Camp to see what was going on? 5 A: Yes, I did. 6 Q: And did you speak to -- did -- did 7 you go into the Army Camp? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And where did you observe -- what -- 10 where were you when you were observing what was going 11 on? 12 A: I was in a line of cars along the 13 side of Highway 21 facing westbound and we were parked 14 in a line along there near the Outer Drive area there. 15 And there was -- there was a little building there that 16 was constructed, a little wooden structure there. 17 And Carl George was in that building and 18 I think he was the one talking with the OPP. And at 19 that time they were going back towards Rose Manning's 20 residence where she was staying in at that time and I 21 recall them -- her telling them to leave her place 22 alone. 23 And I know Bernard was there and he got 24 quite upset because he seen the way that they were 25 treating an Elder there and he started yelling across

1 the fence at the -- the OPP officers. 2 Q: And Bernard -- you're referring to 3 Bernard George? He was with you on the outside of the 4 fence? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And did you have any discussions 7 with the Ontario Provincial Police with respect to this 8 incident on August 23rd or August 24th? 9 A: I don't recall talking to them about 10 anything in regards to that. They were conducting their 11 own investigation. 12 Q: Okay. And, you should have in front 13 of you, Chief Bressette, Exhibit -- a copy of Exhibit 14 219 and Exhibit 219 contains the minutes of the Band 15 Council from -- starting on January 5th, 1993 -- 16 A: Excuse me, where would that be? 17 Q: Oh, it's the binder -- the cerlox 18 binder -- I'm sorry and if you could go to Tab 1. 19 A: This is the Band Council minutes? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: January 5th, '93? 22 Q: Yes. And there's a reference at -- 23 I take it at this point in time, as of January 5, 1993, 24 Maynard T. George was a member of Council? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And there's a note at the bottom 2 that refers to a letter of resignation from Maynard T. 3 George dated January 5, 1993. And in or about this time 4 did Maynard T. George give you a letter of purported 5 resignation? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And he didn't resign officially, 8 though, until, as we'll see in a moment, later in 1993; 9 is that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And there's a reference -- can -- 12 can you tell us today what the reference is to the 13 contract at the bottom of page -- page 1? 14 A: I believe Maynard wanted a contract 15 to do some research work. And we went ahead and 16 basically had him doing research work to try and deal 17 with this one (1) two (2) Band issue. 18 Q: So, in 1993, the Band was attempting 19 to deal with the issue of the one (1) Band, two (2) 20 Bands? 21 A: Yes, we had ever since this started. 22 We -- we -- we tried to find documentation or get to the 23 heart of what he was talking about, because he was the 24 only one raising these kind of concerns. And he had 25 convened several meetings and told people he had

1 unequivocal proof that -- that there was a separation of 2 the Bands and they were two (2) separate entities. 3 Q: And this work on the one (1) Band 4 two (2) Band continued in 1993 -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- by the Band Council? At the top 7 of Page 2 there's a reference to Council of, I think it 8 should be, Elders -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- and the -- can you tell us what 11 that refers to? Were these the Elders from -- that had 12 -- from Stoney Point? 13 A: Yes, I guess, you know, he had 14 Elders that he worked with and the people here, one (1) 15 of them is his sister and another ones his wife -- 16 Q: And -- 17 A: -- and Carl George were there and I 18 think he had Gord Cloud there and Marlene Cloud as the 19 Elders he was meeting with. 20 Q: And which one's his sister and which 21 one's his wife? 22 A: Janet is Maynard's sister, Janet 23 Cloud, and Elaine George was his wife at the time. 24 Q: Okay. And there's a reference to a 25 Victor Gulevitch, G-U-L-E-V-I-T-C-H, historical

1 researcher for legal document and who was Mr. Gulevitch? 2 A: Victor Gulevitch was a -- he was 3 contracted, he was doing teaching at the University of 4 Guelph or McMaster University and he was brought in as a 5 contractor, because that's what he did. 6 He done -- he was an archeologist, and he 7 was brought in to sort of look at our documentation. 8 And he works, today, for the Union of Ontario Indians, 9 as a researcher for them and we used him to find all of 10 these documents. 11 And because he was in Ottawa quite 12 regular at the archives, we wanted certified copies of 13 all of the information relating to our community. And 14 we wanted him just to review some of the work that 15 Maynard was doing. 16 Q: And so he was retained by the Band 17 to work on this issue? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I note that the -- the minute 20 refers to -- in the second paragraph on page 2, 21 "Members of Council of Elders did 22 state again they are in agreement and 23 do want to work collectively on the 24 Stoney Point issue." 25 So that -- do I take that to mean that

1 the Band and this group were trying to work collectively 2 on the issue back in 1993? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And, if I could take you to Tab 2, 5 the minutes of January 18, 1993, again I see that Mr. 6 Maynard T. George is present as a councillor. And on 7 page 2, there's a reference at the top of the page to 8 Stoney Point Council of Elders agenda -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- and there was again, a discussion 11 about the historical research being done. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And then in paragraph 2 there's a 14 note: 15 "Chief informed everyone present that 16 his -- about his call from Robert 17 George. Chief of Council of Elders 18 stating Maynard had no authority for 19 anything he's done and that Robert 20 George will be sending Chief Tom 21 Bressette a letter regarding this." 22 Can you tell -- what was that about, 23 Chief Bressette? 24 A: I believe there was some 25 disagreement with what Maynard was doing at that

1 particular time and other people didn't agree with -- 2 with what he was doing. 3 Q: And the Band Council had, at this 4 point, retained a researcher to look at the issue Mr. 5 Gulevitch and was working with -- on the issue of one 6 (1) Band, two (2) Bands? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And at Tab 3, there's a minute of 9 April 20, 1993 and it refers to in item number A, the 10 leather -- letter of resignation from Mr. Maynard T. 11 George, dated April 20, 1993. 12 And four (4) pages in, attached to that 13 minute, is a letter dated April 20, 1993 to you signed 14 by Mr. Maynard Travis George. 15 Is that his letter of resignation, Chief 16 Bressette? 17 A: Yes, it is. 18 Q: And the -- as of that point in time, 19 was Maynard T. George no longer a councillor? Was the 20 resignation effective or shortly thereafter made 21 effective? 22 A: Well, we acknowledged it and his 23 resignation was basically brought forward. We 24 acknowledged it and I guess the reason we done that is, 25 Indian Affairs were to -- to -- to deal with his

1 resignation. We were elected under the Indian Act and 2 still are today. 3 Q: Okay. And at Tab 4, there's a 4 minute of June 7, 1993. And there's a reference to a 5 report from you about the taxation issue and Camp 6 Ipperwash and that's the issue we spoke of yesterday? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Which ultimately was resolved in 9 favour of your First Nation? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then there's a reference to a 12 meeting with Fred Maguire at the Department of National 13 Defence. And there was -- it refers to a working group 14 being set up between people from, I take it from Stoney 15 Point, and the -- the -- the representatives of the 16 locatees and the Band, and is that correct? 17 Was a joint -- at this point, what were 18 you trying to do? You were trying to work together with 19 the Elders and the locatees from Stoney Point to deal 20 with the issues? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And did that continue? 23 A: For -- for a while it did. I -- I 24 can't be specific on how long that whole process went, 25 but I think it had an impact when -- when Maynard left

1 the -- the Council. 2 Q: Pardon me? 3 A: I think it impacted this process 4 when Maynard resigned. 5 Q: And at Tab 6, there's an e-mail -- 6 excuse me -- there's a Council meeting of August 5, 7 1993 -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- and there's a report of your 10 meeting with Mr. Siddon dated -- that you had on August 11 4, 1993 at item number A? 12 A: Item A, Agenda Review? 13 Q: No, it's -- this is Tab 6. 14 A: Okay, yes. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And you report, and it's noted: 19 "Tom Siddon would like to negotiate 20 either for a buy-out at fair market 21 value or a rental agreement with a 22 long time process to return the land, 23 but not prepared to negotiate as long 24 as the people are occupying the land." 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And does that correctly capture your 2 report and what Mr. Siddon sent to you? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And with respect to the purchase at 5 fair market value, did the Band -- was the Band -- what 6 was the Band's position about selling the land to 7 National Defence? 8 A: The Band wasn't interested in 9 selling the land. 10 Q: And Mr. Siddon, as well, you report 11 he states also that when the time comes, he'll only 12 negotiate with the elected Chief and Council of Band of 13 Kettle and Stony Point. 14 And does that accurately reflect what you 15 told the Band Council and what you were told by Mr. 16 Siddon? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And I note at the bottom that you 19 report that Mr. Siddon is aware that the locatees 20 interests were not taken care of and that you indicate 21 that you were going to meet with the people who were 22 occupying Camp Ipperwash to discuss the concerns raised. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And does that accurately -- did Mr. 25 -- does that accurately capture what Mr. Siddon said

1 with respect to the locatees interests? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what you had reported to Band 4 Council? 5 A: Yes, it is. 6 Q: And I -- the -- did you meet with 7 Mr. Carl George or is that -- you communicated with him 8 by sending him the copy of the letter that's marked P- 9 190? 10 A: I -- I talked to Carl and told him 11 and gave him the letter. 12 Q: And gave him the letter? And then 13 if I could take you to Tab 7 of Exhibit 219. There's a 14 reference on page 2 to Camp Ipperwash Stony Point issue. 15 "Chief gave a brief update to Janet, 16 the government is looking at some time 17 to get off the land. 18 The 1980 agreement did not meet all 19 obligations. The locatees were not 20 addressed. DND were to get a legal 21 opinion regarding the surrender of the 22 reserve. They had a year, so far, to 23 do it." 24 And what's that referring to, Chief 25 Bressette? Do you recall?

1 A: Janet Whitehead was there from the 2 law firm that we -- we were using and -- and we wanted 3 her to -- to look into the reasons why DND didn't get 4 back to us. 5 Q: About -- what was DND to get back to 6 you about? 7 A: Well, they were looking at -- that 8 some -- the government in the 1980 agreement didn't meet 9 the obligations that were in that agreement. And the 10 locatees were not addressed and basically that's what we 11 were wanting her to look into. 12 Q: Okay. And then at Tab 8 there's a 13 minute of September 7th, 1993. And there's a reference 14 in item B, "London Forces Base presentation, need for 15 Camp Ipperwash." And we spoke briefly about this 16 yesterday. 17 It -- it's -- is this the meeting at 18 which the Army came to make their presentation as to why 19 they said they needed Camp Ipperwash? 20 A: Yes, it is. 21 Q: And the -- there was a Colonel 22 Miller and a Colonel Archibald who attended? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I note that there are comments 25 made by members of Council to them starting on page 2.

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And there's a reference on page 3, 3 the last item, to a community meeting and inviting them 4 back. Was there a community meeting and did they come 5 back? 6 A: They came back but it wasn't these - 7 - I don't think it was Colonel Miller or Colonel 8 Archibald. That's where this Major came to the meeting. 9 Q: So the -- the meeting that you told 10 me about yesterday where the Major was rude, was 11 separate from this meeting? 12 A: That -- that was the community 13 meeting -- 14 Q: Oh, that was the community meeting? 15 A: -- where he was rude. Yeah. 16 Q: So, and that was after September 17 7th, 1993? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And so that Colonel Miller and 20 Colonel Archibald didn't come to the community meeting? 21 They sent the Major who was -- 22 A: Very military. It's the only way I 23 can describe him. 24 Q: And if I could take you to Tab 9, 25 it's a minute of September 13, 1993. There's a

1 reference to community meetings and locatees issue -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- and there was to be a Band -- a 4 general Band meeting on September 16th -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- 1993? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And at that meeting, Victor 9 Gulevitch was to host a public display of historical 10 research and family trees based on genealogy information 11 on the same day at 3:00 p.m. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And did this meeting take place on 14 September 16th? 15 A: Yes, it did. 16 Q: And this -- what did the meeting 17 relate to? Was this the one (1) Band, two (2) Band 18 issue? 19 A: I think is the meeting where this 20 major came to it, if I'm not mistaken. 21 Q: And that -- was Mr. Gulevitch was 22 working on the one (1) Band two (2) issue -- two (2) 23 Band issue, as well? 24 A: He was trying to, I guess, put 25 together information right from when the treaty was

1 signed, all the way back through looking at everyone's 2 genealogy and trying to determine where people came 3 from. 4 Q: And there's a reference in the 5 second paragraph, 6 "Liz, Norman, and Brenda will be 7 attending a meeting in Ottawa on 8 September 15th". 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: "And in future, more meetings will 11 be coming up at the Ottawa level 12 regarding Camp Ipperwash. Meeting is 13 to bring back a framework agreement 14 that we can work with." 15 And I take it that's a framework 16 agreement with the Department of National Defence? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And then there's a reference: 19 Press release would be sent out 20 Tuesday, inviting the media to Victor 21 Gulevitch's meeting scheduled for 22 Thursday, September 16, so they can 23 gain a better understanding and view 24 of the history of the Chippewa of 25 Kettle and Stony Point Band?"

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you were trying to educate -- 3 A: The public. 4 Q: -- the media and the public as well, 5 about the history of Kettle and Stony Point? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And then there's a reference, 8 "Discussion on the working agreement. 9 This agreement was acknowledged by 10 both groups on July 14th at the Chiefs 11 of Ontario office. This would be to 12 work in co-operation. 13 The splinter group is looking to 14 create their own Band." 15 And what is this working agreement that's 16 -- what -- is that -- what does that refer to, Chief 17 Bressette? 18 A: I believe that was working along the 19 lines of the statement of principles that we were 20 looking into. And we met at the Chiefs of Ontario 21 office at College Street in London and that's when -- in 22 Toronto, I should say and that's when, I guess, Ernie 23 Hobbs attended the meeting and started some work. 24 Q: And at or about this time, it was 25 decided to retain Ernie Hobbs to do some work with

1 respect to the Camp Ipperwash issue and, as well, the 2 historical issue? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And if we could go, for a moment, 5 you'll find in front of you a copy of a letter. It's in 6 the blue -- blue folder. It's Exhibit P-198, Inquiry 7 Document 9000038. It's a letter from Ronald C. George 8 to Kettle Point First Nation, attention Chief Tom 9 Bressette and it's dated September 21, 1993 -- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- and this is a -- the letter 12 refers to a meeting that Mr. George had with Chief Carl 13 George and Don Goodwin at E.E. Hobbs and Associates, for 14 the purposes of reviewing the matter of the status of 15 the above-noted land claim and an agreement that -- to 16 be executed by the Band Council and an agreement -- an 17 identical document to be executed by the Stoney Point 18 group. Is that correct? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And this letter refers to the 21 appointment of two (2) members of the Stoney Point 22 community to the -- a negotiation team. And there would 23 be two (2) members of Kettle Point on the group. And 24 the letter refers to working in cooperation with each 25 other. And attached to that letter is a letter dated

1 September 22, 1993 from Mr. George to E.E. Hobbs. 2 And was there an agreement entered into 3 between the Band Council and E.E. Hobbs and an agreement 4 entered into between the Band Council and -- I mean E.E. 5 Hobbs and people from Stoney Point? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And at Tab 10 of Exhibit 219, the 8 minute book in front of you, there's a minute of the 9 Council meeting of September 30, 1993, it's Tab 10 and 10 on page 2 at the bottom of the page, there's a 11 reference: 12 "Memorandum of Understanding 13 pertaining to Camp Ipperwash/Stoney 14 Point." 15 And a reference to: 16 "Regarding the retention of E.E. Hobbs 17 & Associates Ltd. Development 18 Consultants for carrying out certain 19 services on behalf of the groups 20 involved." 21 And at the top of the page it goes on to 22 read, page 6: 23 "To get the negotiations started 24 between the two (2) groups, Memorandum 25 of Understanding was agreed upon and

1 needs signing. Received an identical 2 signed MOU dated September 6th, 1993 3 from E.E. Hobbs & Associates signed by 4 Carl George. Chief looking for 5 authorization from Council to sign 6 identical agreement." 7 And I see that you obtained that 8 agreement subject to funding being provided? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: So that you were working with Carl 11 George on the issue of the Stoney Point, and what was 12 E.E. Hobbs asked to do? I know there's a letter here, 13 it's at Tab 95 of the black book. I'm sorry that we 14 have so many books, but it's simply the nature of the 15 beast. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: The document at Tab 95 is Inquiry 20 Document Number 9000036 and it's a copy of a letter. 21 The first page, actually, is a fax cover sheet from 22 someone at E.E. Hobbs to Mr. Ross. What I'm interested 23 in is a -- the letter to you dated September 16th, 1993. 24 Did you receive this letter? 25 A: Yes, we did.

1 Q: And I note that you -- does your 2 signature appear on page 4? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Perhaps we could mark the letter 5 without the fax cover sheet as the next exhibit, it 6 would be Exhibit 242. 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-242, You Honour. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-242. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-242: Document Number 9000036 11 Letter from E.E. Hobbs and 12 Associates Ltd. To Chief 13 Thomas Bressette Re: 14 Grievances and long 15 outstanding issues 16 confronting the Chippewas of 17 Kettle Point and Stoney 18 Point Sept. 16/93 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: And the scope of work that's 22 referred to in the third paragraph had four (4) 23 elements, as I understand it, one (1) to pursue the 24 Department of National Defence to provide funding for 25 the work to be undertaken under the agreement. So, what

1 you were trying to do was to get money from DND? 2 A: No, E.E. Hobbs was supposed to get 3 the money for this particular work. That's -- that's 4 what we had agreed to. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: That's why, in the motion that 7 preceded this, it said, subject to funding from DND. 8 Q: Did funding ever come from DND? 9 A: I can't be too sure on that. 10 Q: What else was -- item number 2 is -- 11 refers to organize, analyse, and present all available 12 information including the views of the Elders. 13 A: Just like you and all your books, we 14 had boxes of information. We had a whole lot of 15 archeological information in our office. And I think 16 Maynard had the same documents as we had, except he -- 17 he had them in his box and we had ours in our filing 18 cabinets. 19 Q: And then they were to provide -- the 20 third item is provide opinions with stated reasons as to 21 respective rights and interests? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And can you -- I know this is 24 described later in the document, but what was your 25 understanding that that referred to?

1 A: Well, I think it was -- he was 2 suppose to be discussing the information. Not only 3 through the government's records that they kept but also 4 the views and ideas that were coming from our Elders at 5 that time, he was suppose to meet and discuss these 6 issues with them. 7 And then come back and basically outline 8 an opinion with people's basically the rights that they 9 were interested to ensure were looked after in the 10 negotiations. 11 Q: And did this include -- did the work 12 that E.E. Hobbs was supposed to do include looking at 13 the one (1) Band, two (2) Band issue? 14 A: Well, he was going to -- not 15 respectively get into that issue but try to find a way 16 for us to collectively agree on -- on matters. That was 17 the intent of him coming to work with us. 18 Q: So that it would work collectively, 19 the two (2) groups to try to sort out the issues? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And the problems? And then lastly 22 to provide advice with respect to options available 23 related to the settlement of outstanding land issues 24 including the 1942 taking of Stoney Point Reserve Number 25 43?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I take it -- I understand that 3 E.E. Hobbs did some work and the -- at the same time Mr. 4 Gulevitch continued his work as well. Now I take you to 5 Tab 75 -- 75 of the black book. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Was there a community meeting, do 10 you recall, on October 12th, 1993? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And have you seen this document 13 which purports to be the comments by Glenn George? It's 14 Inquiry Document 9000052 for October 12, 1993, have you 15 seen this document before, sir? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. Do you recall anything about 18 the meeting? I know it's a long time ago and others 19 have said it's only lawyers that ask these types of 20 questions. But, do you recall anything about a 21 community meeting in October 1993? 22 A: I -- I don't remember. 23 Q: Okay. Could I take you then to Tab 24 76 of the black book. This is a copy of a letter from - 25 - to you dated October 26th, 1993 and I believe it's

1 from Ron George, it's the fax cover sheet. Did you -- 2 do you recall receiving this letter? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And this relates to the negotiations 5 with the Department of National Defence? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Perhaps we'll mark that as the next 8 exhibit. It would be two forty (240) -- 9 THE REGISTRAR: 243. Yes it is, could I 10 have the document number? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 243. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's Inquiry Document 13 9000054. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-243: Document Number 9000054 Oct. 16 26/93 letter to Chief 17 Bressette from Chief Carl 18 George Re: Kettle 19 Point/Stoney Point - 20 National Defence. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: Then, at the next page, there's a 24 memorandum to you, it's Inquiry Document 9000058 from 25 Tony Ross dated November 4th, 1993. Did you receive

1 this memorandum? Do you recall receiving this, sir? 2 A: Yes, I believe I -- I got this. 3 Q: And that again relates to 4 negotiations? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And perhaps we could mark that the 7 next exhibit, it would be 2... 8 THE REGISTRAR: ...44, Your Honour. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Forty-four (44)? 10 11 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-244: Document Number 9000058 12 Nov.04/93 fax to Kettle 13 Point, Att. Chiefs Tom 14 Bressette and Carl George 15 from E. Anthony Ross Re: 16 First Nations Claims against 17 Canada. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: And at -- we could go back to the 21 Council meetings for a moment, and take you to Tab 13? 22 This is a minute of a Council meeting on November 2nd, 23 1993, and if I could take you to page 2. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 Q: And there's a reference at the top 2 of page 2 to E. E. Hobbs & Associates and the attendance 3 of Paul Powers and a David Ross from, I take it, E.E. 4 Hobbs & Associates? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Not our Mr. Ross who we have here? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And there's a reference in the third 9 paragraph: 10 "They were contracted to identify if 11 there were two (2) Bands or one (1) 12 Band. Had a meeting with the other 13 group in Toronto last Friday, October 14 29, 1993 and clearly pointed out to 15 them that it was one (1) Band and not 16 two (2) separate Bands and separation 17 was not in the cards." 18 Can you tell me, who is making that -- 19 this is recording a statement made by whom, that there 20 was a meeting with the other group? 21 A: These two (2) people, Paul Powers 22 and David Ross. 23 Q: And the advice that they had given 24 you was that there was one (1) Band, not two (2) Bands? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And they indicated they had given 2 the same advice to the -- Mr. George -- Carl George's 3 group? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And they also advised you that -- it 6 goes on to say: 7 "They felt confident that this was 8 accepted by the other group and 9 they're now willing to consolidate and 10 must negotiate from strength, not 11 division." 12 Is that -- does this minute accurately 13 record what they advised you? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And the -- there was, I take it, a 16 discussion about money? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And there -- there was a substantial 19 cost with respect to the work being done by E.E. Hobbs? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And if I could take you to Tab 14, 22 it's a minute of a meeting on November 16, 1993, and 23 again at page 2, there's a reference to E.E. Hobbs and 24 Associates? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And this time, Mr. Ernie Hobbs and 2 Paul Powers attended the meeting and Mr. Carl George was 3 also present? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And this relates, principally, to 6 money as I understand it? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And ultimately, with the decision -- 9 how much did the Band ultimately pay to E.E. Hobbs for 10 this work? 11 A: I don't know exactly how much we did 12 pay to them. I know we got into a disagreement, 13 basically because the wording was changed and the 14 invoices that were coming in were rather large. 15 Q: And ultimately was the contract 16 terminated with them? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: I've seen somewhere a reference to-- 19 A: I believe it was -- 20 Q: -- a hundred and seventy-nine 21 thousand (179,000) -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- but I can't find it now. Does 24 that sound about right? 25 A: That sounds about the figure that we

1 were billed for and initially it was supposed to be a 2 hundred thousand (100,000) and it was going higher and 3 higher. And we didn't want to just wind up in a 4 position where he was taking us to Court and -- and 5 making us pay him more than what we had originally 6 agreed to. 7 Q: Then in the fall of 1993, I 8 understand you met with Mr. John Chretien during the 9 course the election? 10 A: Yes, he was campaigning in North 11 Lambton area and he was staying at the Holiday Inn down 12 in Point Edward. And at that time, Ovide Mercredi was 13 in the area and he was the National Chief then, and he 14 was staying in the same hotel and he ran into John 15 Chretien. And I -- I recall that day because he called 16 my house and he said, Can -- can you get to Sarnia very 17 quickly? 18 And I said, what for? He said, well, Mr. 19 Chretien's here and I've managed to get a meeting with 20 him. And he's campaigning to be the next Prime Minister 21 and it may be worth your while to come and discuss your 22 land claim issue with him. At which time I -- I did 23 quickly drive down to Sarnia and did meet with Mr. 24 Mercredi and Mr. Chretien in -- in a separate room and 25 we -- we had a discussion.

1 Q: And the -- what was the discussion 2 about? The... 3 A: I recall in 1972, my father-in-law 4 was the Chief of the Band and he had confronted Mr. 5 Chretien, who was the Minister of Indian Affairs at the 6 time, at the gates of Camp Ipperwash regarding the 7 taking of Stoney Point lands. 8 And Mr. Chretien basically read the 9 documentation that was presented by Chief Shawkence that 10 stated that the land was appropriated for use for the 11 effective prosecution of the war and as a basic infantry 12 training unit. And when it -- the war was -- the use 13 was concluded, it was to be returned. 14 Mr. Chretien basically stated at that 15 time he would return to Ottawa and make every effort 16 possible to have the land returned. 17 That never really materialized and he 18 gave a commitment to the Chief then that when he -- he 19 would go back and raise this matter with Prime Minister 20 Trudeau at the time. 21 That never happened either, so my 22 question to him was, Mr. Chretien, you, when you were 23 the Minister of Indian Affairs, gave a commitment once 24 and you failed to live up to that. 25 I said, When -- if you are elected to be

1 the Prime Minister of Canada, what will you do with our 2 land? We're asking now again, you want to be the Prime 3 Minister, you're looking for people to support you. 4 What's your position on this? 5 And at that point, he said, Look, he 6 said, if I'm elected to be the Prime Minister, he said, 7 I'll tell you yes or I'll tell you no. You have my word 8 on that, he said. But I will -- I will live up to the 9 word that I gave, and that was ultimately what he stated 10 and nothing more. 11 He said, I don't want to pursue this. We 12 can talk about this all day. Mr. Mercredi starting 13 lobbying him for finances and things for the First 14 Nations in Canada. And after the meeting he didn't give 15 any -- any statement to Mr. Mercredi, just stated, Well, 16 we'll meet again, Chief, is what he said. 17 And when we left the room, the National 18 Chief told me I can't believe you got a -- got a 19 commitment out of Chretien like that and he seemed quite 20 surprised that he would say that. 21 And my response was, Well, he still has 22 to get elected to carry out any commitment he given and 23 kind of laughed about that and left. 24 Q: Okay. And could I take you to -- as 25 we know, they were elected --

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- and Mr. Ron Irwin became the 3 Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs in the new 4 government and could I take you to Tab 79 in the black 5 book, please. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And this is Inquiry Document 10 9000076, and I note on page 2, that you were to receive 11 a copy of the document? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: As was, I take it, Maynard George, 14 refers to Maynard T. George? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And do you recall receiving a copy 17 of this document? 18 A: Yes, we did. 19 Q: And it's a letter dated February 20 2nd, 1994 from Mr. Bud Wildman, Minister responsible for 21 Native Affairs and the Government of Ontario and this 22 letter is simply urging the Federal Government to settle 23 the claim of the First Nation for the return of Stoney 24 Point? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And, in fact, in that very same 2 month, you were able to issue a press release -- 3 A: - eighty-two (82). 4 Q: Just if I could take you to Tab 81. 5 It's Inquiry Document 9000224. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And this announces that on February 8 22nd, 1994 at approximately 6:20 p.m. you received a 9 tele -- telephone call from the Department of National 10 Defence informing you that the Camp Ipperwash Base would 11 be closed due to budget restraints and subsequently that 12 the land would be returned to your First Nation. 13 And did you send this document out to 14 members of your community? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And that was -- did you -- I take it 17 you sent it out on February 22nd? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Perhaps we could mark that the next 20 exhibit, it's Exhibit 245? 21 THE REGISTRAR: 245 your Honour. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-245: Document Number 24 9000224 Feb.22/94 from 25 Chief Tom Bressette to

47
  1                                   all members of the
  2                                   Kettle and Stony Point
  3                                   First Nation
  4                                   announcing the return
  5                                   of the land.
  6  
  7  CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:  
  8                 Q:   And you refer in that --
  9  announcement to a number of things, including you note,
 10  that: 
 11                   "There are still many outstanding
 12                   issues that have yet to be resolved. 
 13                   We cannot let these issues overshadow
 14                   what has happened here tonight.  These
 15                   issues including compensation for loss
 16                   of economic use of the land, clean-up
 17                   of the land and the claims by locatees
 18                   or location ticket holders will be
 19                   addressed in due time.  On behalf of
 20                   the Kettle and Stony Point First
 21                   Nations Council, I commend all of
 22                   those who have contributed to the
 23                   fifty-two (52) year old -- two (2)
 24                   year struggle for the return of this
 25                   land and invite all members to join us

1 today at the Kettle and Stony Point 2 community centre. We've scheduled a 3 press conference 1:00 p.m. followed by 4 refreshments." 5 And I take it that was to be on February 6 23rd, the day after? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And the -- I don't want to get into 9 the details of negotiation, but now in March of 1995, 10 you're still working -- negotiating with the Federal 11 Government -- I mean, 2005, to get back the land? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now, if I could take you back to the 14 minutes for a moment. And I don't want to go through 15 these minutes, but in 1994 the -- there were a number of 16 issues being dealt with by the Band Council including 17 dealing with the Federal Government and dealing with 18 issues within the Band between -- with respect to Stoney 19 Point and the issue about one (1) Band or two (2) Bands? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And at Tab 18 there's a minute of a 22 general Band meeting on May 5th, 1994. 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And the -- these are minutes of that 25 Band meeting or a transcript of the -- what was said at

1 the Band meeting. Is that what this refers to? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And Mr. Carl George attended that 4 meeting? 5 A: Yes, he did. 6 Q: And can you tell us briefly what the 7 purpose of the meeting was? 8 A: We wanted to update people. First, 9 we wanted to make the announcement that we were building 10 a new school. And trying to deal with I guess to move 11 ahead with that. 12 I don't think we ever got to that because 13 we -- we spent the majority of the time dealing with -- 14 with the -- this issue of the document that was created 15 by us, if it's in here, yes. 16 Q: The document you're referring to is 17 the memorandum with respect to the principles of 18 negotiation? 19 A: Yes. Or was this at another 20 meeting, I'm not sure. But we were basically trying to 21 -- trying to get our people aware that we were working 22 trying to resolve our issues internally. And we wanted 23 to go forward to the government with a -- with a united 24 front like that statement that stayed in unity. This is 25 the meeting I'm not sure.

1 Q: The agenda items that were noted on 2 this particular minute were, 1) Education. A new school 3 which was ultimately built and opening in the fall of 4 1995? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And secondly, the separation of 7 Kettle and Stony Point there's a referendum vote, that 8 was a topic of discussion? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And I note that the introduction -- 11 you made introductory remarks and about the position of 12 the Department of National Defence? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And you make a comment in the first 15 paragraph: 16 "We have been contacted by the 17 Department of National Defence and 18 given a formal response to a letter 19 that we had written to them asking 20 them to consider paying some damages 21 to individual land holders -- land 22 owners as well as damages to the Band 23 and to clean up the property and to 24 return it and what we have received. 25 There was a response from the

51
  1                   government that says very clearly that
  2                   they are indicating that: 
  3                   "We are prepared to enter into
  4                   negotiation with the Band, return the
  5                   land, clean the land and nothing
  6                   else."
  7                 And on the 2nd page, you go on to talk
  8  about this issue and you raise a concern at the bottom
  9  of the second -- the first full paragraph on that page:
 10                   "Well, there are some folks occupying
 11                   this land and I don't think they're
 12                   going to be prepared to go in there as
 13                   long as there's anybody sitting on the
 14                   land.  As long as they are, they
 15                   hinder the process of the
 16                   environmental assessment going ahead
 17                   and that, as such, may let the
 18                   Government of Canada off the hook by
 19                   saying the Band refuses to let them go
 20                   in and clean the land."
 21                 And was that a concern that the
 22  government had raised with you?
 23                 A:   Yes.
 24                 Q:   And then at the bottom of the page,
 25  you get -- you deal with the issue:

1 "We've made attempts to try and 2 resolve this thing to do what we could 3 to bring people together but out 4 attempts have been unsuccessful." 5 And you talk about the: 6 "The whole interest of the Band of 7 every member who has some kind of 8 claim to that land is in jeopardy, at 9 this point, and I don't know how to 10 address that issue. 11 I don't know if people are aware that 12 we've spent in excess of fifty 13 thousand dollars ($50,000) doing 14 research, and the bill is going up, 15 trying to find out whether there is 16 proof that there ever existed two (2) 17 bands in this area or not and all the 18 research that we've got has looked 19 into and brought out the case that 20 there's only been one (1) Band here. 21 I don't know where the issue of 22 whether there are two (2) bands here 23 ever came from, but I know from 24 research that I've seen, that I've 25 personally read, that there's not

1 anything. I don't know how many people 2 in this community have actually sat 3 down and extensively read all that 4 information, but they're just relying 5 on a few individuals to tell them that 6 information exists because we -- 7 repeatedly, we have asked that if this 8 information exists, please table it 9 and show it to the Council so that we 10 get on with business. 11 To date, nothing has been done to 12 verify the existence of two (2) 13 separate and distinct operating -- 14 bands operating here. 15 There are other communities in Ontario 16 and across the country that have more 17 than one (1) land base. They are 18 governed under one (1) Band Council 19 and that's the way this community has 20 been since it separated from Sarnia in 21 1919. 22 All of that information is in the Band 23 Office for anyone who wants to go in 24 there and have a look at it. We have 25 Linda Henry working in that office and

1 she's assisting our researcher. So, 2 if there's anything anybody would like 3 to see, it's there for their viewing 4 or reading." 5 And the -- that was a statement that you 6 made at that meeting? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Perhaps, before I go on, we could 9 mark that the next exhibit. It's general Band meeting 10 minutes, May 5th, 1994 and it would be Exhibit 246. 11 THE REGISTRAR: It's already in as part 12 of the package. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 219. Oh, excuse me. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's P-219. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I'm getting ahead of 16 myself. It's already an exhibit, it's part of 219. 17 THE WITNESS: And was there a -- I see 18 that there was a long discussion and I don't want to go 19 through the discussion, but I take it that the result of 20 the meeting that there was a decision, as noted on page 21 40 of Tab 18, that there would be no referendum vote on 22 separation? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 4 Q: And a decision was made to go ahead 5 and build the school? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Then, if I could take you to Tab 19 8 of Exhibit 219, there's another minute -- it's a minute 9 of June 3rd, 1994 and it refers to -- at the bottom of 10 page 6 or the second page, which is actually page 6, to 11 the income tax issues involving -- involving Stoney 12 Point and the work that was being done for the Band on 13 that issue? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And at Tab 20, there's a minute of 16 July 21, 1994 and at the second page of that document, 17 it's page 5 of the actual minutes, there's a reference 18 at the bottom of the page: 19 "Environmental study will take about 20 one and a half (1 1/2) years to 21 negotiate and get it in the works and 22 another year for Stoney Point to clean 23 up. The Chief states we need to have 24 something in place on how it will be 25 used. Liz to meet with Clifford

1 George to discuss ideas for a 2 community development plan for Stoney 3 Point." 4 And, I take it that refers to the -- what 5 will be done with Stoney Point once it comes back? 6 A: Well, it must be. I wasn't at this 7 meeting and I do recall asking that this be put on the 8 agenda. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: And Liz addressed it. 11 Q: And there's a reference: 12 "Ipperwash management plan." 13 And I know you weren't, as you've just 14 said, at the meeting, but was there -- there were 15 discussions going on with Mr. Kobayashi, the Park 16 Manager for the Pinery and Ipperwash Provincial Park 17 about a co-management plan? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And then at the bottom of that third 20 page, there's a note: 21 "Liz to draft a letter to Base 22 Commander at Camp Ipperwash for 23 Chief's signature regarding Department 24 of National Defence to continue 25 supplying water to the residents who

1 utilize the water system at Camp 2 Ipperwash." 3 Was there some indication to the Band 4 Council that the Army might cut off water? 5 A: I believe we did have to get into 6 that issue. They were planning on shutting the water 7 off and we told them that we wanted them to continue, 8 people were living there and -- 9 Q: This is in June 1994 -- 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: -- before the occupation of the 12 built up area. 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And did, in fact, the Band Council 15 write the letter to -- 16 A: Well, that was council's direction 17 is, look, we're going to do this in -- in support of the 18 people and the letter was drafted and sent, I believe. 19 Q: Okay. And at Tab 21 there's a 20 minute of a meeting on September 8th, 1994? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And there's a reference to Camp 23 Ipperwash and the environmental assessment and there was 24 a -- it says: 25 "DND going -- doing an environmental

1 assessment of Stoney Point. DND 2 committee have been interviewing 3 environmental experts so as to have 4 someone assist in having us put forth 5 our concerns in the terms of reference 6 and to make sure DND is doing their 7 job. 8 Five (5) applicants interviewed, they 9 went through a second interview and 10 have selected a candidate." 11 So you selected a candidate to work with 12 you as your consultant -- environmental consultant? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then there's a -- at Tab 23 15 there's a Council meeting minute of April 25, 1995. 16 A: What one is that again? Tab -- 17 Q: At Tab 23. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: Okay. 22 Q: And at Page 2 there's a reference, 23 simply to a claim, by the Band against Canada with 24 respect to Camp Ipperwash? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And then at the top of the next 2 page, there's a reference to a claim by Maynard T. 3 George, against the Band? Maynard T. George had sued 4 the Band Council? 5 A: Oh, yes, he did. 6 Q: And on that same page, there's -- 7 below it, there's: 8 "Discussion with Carl O. George and 9 groups lawyer and Mr. Carl George 10 attended with a lawyer to discuss 11 issues relating to his group and the 12 Band Council." 13 It's on the third page, there's a 14 reference to it. This is the same minute of -- at Tab 15 23, Chief Bressette. 16 A: The third page? 17 Q: "Discussion with Carl O. George." 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Do you recall Mr. George attending 20 this meeting in April of 1995? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: I'm not sure, he must have been. I 25 think the lawyer was represent -- was at the meeting

1 telling us he met with him and giving us an update and 2 the Council was telling the lawyer, I'm not sure that 3 Carl was there. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: In the minutes that I looked at, the 6 -- who was present and they're not listed as being 7 present at the meeting. 8 Q: Oh, so I've misread that. 9 A: Yeah -- 10 Q: You're right, they aren't present 11 and it -- presumably it's simply someone updating -- 12 A: The lawyer was representing the 13 Council, he had met with them. 14 Q: And updating you on what was going 15 on? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Then at Tab 24, there's a minute of 18 a Council meeting dated May 9, 1995. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And at Page 2 of this document, 21 there's an issue with respect to environmental 22 assessment and there's a note: 23 "Request came from legal counsel for a 24 motion to put in place authorizing 25 Chief Bressette to sign affidavits for

1 injunction to prevent M.N. Dillon from 2 starting the environmental assessment 3 of Camp Ipperwash which was to start 4 shortly thereafter." 5 Can you tell us what this issue was 6 about, Chief Bressette and why you were contemplating 7 action against the Federal Government over M.M. Dillon? 8 A: Well, we were told we were going to 9 be involved in this process. We were going to be 10 involved at the selection of the people doing the work. 11 At that time we had a -- an issue with 12 the Federal Government because we were excluded. And 13 one (1) of the concerns that was raised was, we -- we 14 had a -- a name given to us because there was -- when 15 they do these contract awardings, there were about seven 16 (7) companies, I believe at the time, who were up for 17 interviews. 18 And what happened was when -- when we 19 were going through this process, I guess the guy from 20 Dillon was telling the other people, I already have the 21 job, might as well not apply, and dropping hints like 22 that. 23 And so we -- we met with DND and we -- we 24 wrote Dillon -- M.M. Dillon -- on a piece of paper and 25 we put it in a sealed envelope and we handed it to the

1 Department of National Defence folks and said, Here's 2 the name of the person who won your contract award and 3 they said, No, we -- we don't believe that. 4 And I said, Well, here, keep it and we 5 told them to keep it until they opened it because they 6 said they were going to advise us when the -- the 7 selection was done. 8 What happened, they said, We couldn't 9 possibly know who was hired. And we said, We already 10 know. And this went on, we sat at the table with them 11 and the -- the name was on there. And we had sealed the 12 envelope and put markings on there, wrote the date on 13 there, and said, Here, the seal won't be broken until 14 you come back and when you open the -- open the envelope 15 the name of the contractor will be there. 16 And that's ultimately who won and that's 17 ultimately whose name was in that envelope. They -- 18 they didn't like that -- the way we handled that, but it 19 was just making a point that we had felt that there was 20 some dealings done to hand somebody a contract like that 21 was inappropriate and we were not involved. And we then 22 proceeded to put an injunction blocking Dillon from 23 doing that work. 24 So, I guess the government didn't like 25 the approach we used. They were very unhappy, but we

1 just wanted to make a point that, you know, we're not 2 foolish and they couldn't do things that we wouldn't 3 catch on to and we wanted a process where we were 4 involved. 5 Like, they said that we would be involved 6 in the selection, we'd be involved in -- this was an 7 environmental matter, so those -- all those things are 8 in the history books and that's what occurred at that 9 time. 10 Q: So, the -- the Band took the action 11 that the Band did with respect to M.M. Dillon because 12 the Government -- the Federal Government -- had promised 13 to consult you about the -- the -- the choice of the 14 consultant and you felt that they didn't and -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- had made a choice without your 17 input? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And, so, you commenced an action and 20 -- with respect, was -- what happened? Did M.M. Dillon 21 ultimately get the contract? 22 A: No, they didn't. 23 Q: And if I could take you to the next 24 minute at Tab 25. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Now, at Tab 25, there's a minute 4 of a Council meeting, June 20th, 1995 and it's -- at 5 page 2, there's a reference: 6 "Draft statement of principles for 7 negotiation of the Camp Ipperwash 8 claim to the Stoney Point Reserve." 9 And there's -- it says that: 10 "A statement of principles will be 11 going out to the community once final 12 acceptance to keep community members 13 informed on what's happening with the 14 process for negotiations." 15 And we've heard of these statement of 16 principles for negotiating the Stony Point claim before. 17 These were the -- the document that you were negotiating 18 with Mr. Carl George and his group? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And ultimately we'll see that those 21 statement of principles where you attempted to deliver 22 with your letter of August 3rd, 1995? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And at Tab 26 there's a minute of a 25 meeting of July 3rd, 1995 and the first item in that

1 minutes is Camp Military -- Ipperwash Military Police 2 concerns and then it's noted, "Unscheduled Item." 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And the Military Police had 5 contacted you about issues at Camp Ipperwash at Stoney 6 Point? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And so the two (2) gentlemen from 9 the military police, Mr. Taylor and Mr. Smith attended 10 at the Banc Council meeting? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And there's a -- the minute says: 13 "Here tonight to see if a consolidated 14 group can help resolve some of the 15 problems. Chief states that the 16 reality is that it's a law enforcement 17 matter but the law is not being 18 enforced. 19 Doug Smith stated that their mandate 20 is to provide law enforcement so that 21 the people in the built-up area are 22 safe. Chief and Council say that they 23 do not support or advocate what some 24 of the people are doing there at 25 Stoney Point.

1 Carl George, who was presented --" 2 -- I think that should be present: 3 "-- stated that he will talk to Cliff 4 George and others about the 5 discussions that took place at a 6 meeting tonight and ask for their 7 support regarding the suggestion. 8 Carl states he agrees with the 9 statement of principles but two (2) 10 additional items have to be added. 11 Then it should be sent out so people 12 know what is happening with the 13 negotiation process. 14 Chief to send out a letter to the 15 community that Band members should 16 stay away from down there until the 17 disputes are resolved." 18 Does that accurately describe what 19 happened at the meeting? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: So there was two (2) issues. The 22 issue of the police and working -- and discussions with 23 Carl George about -- and Mr. Clifford George about what 24 could be done to resolve the problems with the police, 25 and secondly the principles of negotiation are being

1 referred to? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And again on the second page, the 4 draft statement of principles are referred to and 5 additions were to be made that Mr. Carl George had 6 requested on page 2? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And those additions were to add more 9 people from -- add more positions so that people from 10 Stoney Point can apply? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Then on July -- at the next tab at 13 Tab 27 of the third page there's a reference to Carl 14 George, a statement of principles and again there was a 15 discussion with Mr. George on the statement of 16 principles for negotiating the claim? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Then on July 29, 1995, as we know, 19 members of your community entered the built-up area at 20 Camp Ipperwash. Were you aware, prior to the -- July 21 29th, that the move into the built-up area was going to 22 take place? 23 A: I think there was rumour that 24 something was going to happen. I wasn't, like, 25 genuinely knew. I didn't have a very clear -- somebody

1 came and said this is going to happen on this day. 2 But there was a sort of a statement being 3 around that there was going to be some move to take over 4 that area. 5 Q: And when did you first learn that 6 this actually had happened? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: I believe I got a phone call and 11 then somebody said it was on the news, so that's how I 12 learned about it. 13 Q: Okay. And what was your reaction as 14 Chief to the takeover of the built-up area? 15 A: Well, I was just kind of shocked 16 that the Military just decided to go parading down the 17 highway with -- I understood it as someone said they -- 18 they drove a forklift truck and whatever they could take 19 and went parading down the highway with it towards 20 Northville, that's -- that's a small community just to 21 the east side. 22 A: And the Band Council discussed this 23 issue? 24 A: I believe so. 25 Q: And at Exhibit 219, Tab 28, there's

1 a minute of the Council meeting on August 1st, 1995 that 2 started at 6:15 and one (1) of the items was: 3 "General Band meeting following at 4 7:00 p.m. at the community centre 5 regarding Camp Ipperwash/Stoney Point 6 reason for short Council meeting 7 tonight." 8 And there was a general meeting that -- 9 later that evening? Is that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And the minutes of that meeting 12 which is Inquiry Document 6000354 are at Tab 29 of the 13 book -- the black book, Chief Bressette. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And that document has been marked 16 Exhibit 43 in these Proceedings. And the persons listed 17 under Chief and Council present, those are the Chief and 18 you were there, but it's the Council -- members of the 19 Band Council who are present at the meeting? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And can you just tell me, Chief 22 Bressette, how many of the people who were on Band 23 Council in 1995 had a connection with Stoney Point, 24 starting with yourself. 25 Your grandmother originally lived at

1 Stoney Point? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: What about Mr. Bob Bressette? 4 A: Yes, he had land interests there. 5 Q: I can't -- I can't hear you, Chief-- 6 A: Yes, he did. Bob had interest 7 there. I think Bernard George has interest, Norman 8 Shawnoo, Ron Bressette, Al Bressette, and Gerald George. 9 Q: All have connections with Stoney 10 Point? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I take it they're family 13 connections, members of their family? We've heard from 14 some of these people. 15 A: Pretty much everybody here has 16 relatives at Stoney Point. 17 Q: And what about Mr. Bud George and 18 Mr. Steve Wolfe? 19 A: I can't speak to that. 20 Q: And Mr. Brian Monague. 21 A: Monague. 22 Q: Monague. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Does he have connections with Stoney 25 Point through his relatives?

1 A: I know his -- he says he's related 2 to people directly from there. And I don't know what 3 he's -- I guess you'd have to ask Brian that yourself 4 what is -- he was -- 5 Q: The others that you've mentioned, 6 you do know about their connection with their relatives? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And what about Ms. Thunder, the 9 Band -- 10 A: Yes, she -- she has as well. 11 Q: And the -- at the meeting, the 12 meeting lasted a number of hours and a number of people 13 spoke. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And can you briefly state from your 16 perspective what the concerns -- what you took to be the 17 principle concerns of the people at the community 18 meeting about what was happening in -- what had happened 19 at Camp Ipperwash/Stoney Point? 20 A: Well, there -- there was quite a few 21 concerns being raised in regards to people who are not 22 from our community were basically controlling access and 23 entrance to the place that no one knew who they were or 24 where they were from. They all of a sudden showed up 25 and they were taking a role, denying people entrance or

1 locking gates and things like that. 2 And the community felt that people from 3 other communities should not be on those lands because 4 they feared that we would fall into some kind of 5 difficult problems such as what existed in Oka. 6 I know that was fresh on a lot of 7 people's minds at the time and they wanted the -- the -- 8 the Chief and Council to do something about it. They 9 said, you know, Those are our lands and, you know, 10 you're our Chief and Council we elected to basically 11 deal with issues that confront us. So, you know, do -- 12 do something about this. 13 And, generally, that's what we were told 14 to do is look after our responsibility. 15 Q: And the concerns about -- that were 16 expressed about outsiders without going through the -- 17 the minutes in -- in any detail were concerns that had 18 been raised, existed prior to the takeover of the built- 19 up area, I take it? Is that -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And do you recall Exhibit 43, how it 22 was created? Was the meeting taped and then a 23 transcript made of the tape? 24 A: Yes, they tape these meetings and 25 whatever people say, they transcribe them into -- into a

1 written word so people have a record of what happened at 2 the meetings. 3 Q: And, as a result of the meeting, the 4 First Nation issued a press release -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- as I understand it and that in 7 the blue memorandum -- blue -- blue folder in front of 8 you, there's a copy of a press release. It should be 9 there. Keep going down. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: This one? 14 Q: Yes. Is that a copy -- it's Inquiry 15 Document 3000370 -- is that a copy of the press release 16 issued on August the 2nd, 1995? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And perhaps we could mark that the 19 next exhibit, please? 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-246, Your Honour. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-246: Document Number 3000370 Aug. 23 02/95 Press Release from the 24 Chippewas of Kettle and 25 Stony Point Re: Negotiations

1 with Dept. Of National 2 Defence. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And I note that the press release 6 refers to the Band meeting and the fact that the Band 7 members favour a speedy return of the lands. And then 8 it -- in the second full paragraph: 9 "People attending the meeting stated 10 that they want to work with the Band 11 members occupying the Stoney Point 12 land to -- reunify the community torn 13 apart by the illegal appropriation and 14 continued use by the Military of half 15 our land base. 16 It was the general consensus of those 17 present that non-Band members in 18 occupation of Camp Ipperwash should be 19 thanked for their support, but should 20 be asked to leave Stoney Port -- Point 21 as it is not now, and never was, their 22 home. 23 We believe that without the presence 24 of disrupting outside influences, the 25 Kettle and Stony Point First Nation

1 will be able to continue negotiations 2 with the Department of National 3 Defence for the expeditious cleanup 4 and return of the Stoney Point lands. 5 And further community meetings as well 6 as Elder consultations will be held in 7 the near future to -- try to resolve 8 conflicts among Band members as well 9 as conflicts between Band members and 10 the Department of Nation Defence." 11 And the press release refers to the 12 concerns about outsiders being at Camp Ipperwash? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Now, it's my understanding that it's 15 quite normal that people will go from one (1) First 16 Nation to another First Nation to support the other 17 First Nation in --with respect to their struggles. In 18 this case the struggle at -- by your First Nation 19 against the Federal Government to get the land back. 20 And -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- that this is a normal -- that 23 this happens often among First Nations? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And why was the Kettle and Stony

1 Point First Nation so concerned about people coming and 2 giving support to the people living at Stony Point? 3 A: I -- I believe, you know, when you 4 look at the discussions that occurred in the Band 5 meeting, there was statements that some people were 6 making that they didn't want an Oka situation in -- in 7 our community. 8 That, you know, they -- they also, as 9 well, I think there were comments in here that basically 10 related to the fact that someone had approached somebody 11 and asked them who they were. And, you know, they 12 stated a name and said that they were, I think the word 13 that was used was a shit disturber. 14 And those kind of concerns were being 15 generated because people were making those statements 16 that they were being told things and they didn't want to 17 see any -- anybody getting hurt over this issue. That's 18 what the whole concern always was. We didn't want to 19 see anybody become injured as a result of all of this. 20 Q: And so that -- do I understand you 21 correctly, you weren't concerned about you personally as 22 Chief, weren't concerned about other people coming and 23 supporting the First Nation. 24 But there were concerns about people 25 coming and doing things that would be -- adversely

1 reflect on the First Nation? 2 A: You know, it's pretty clear in there 3 as well, the Elders were concerned that people weren't 4 even from there were coming in and telling them they 5 couldn't be on the land. And be an exclusionary of who 6 could come and go on the land. They were concerned 7 about that. 8 It seemed like -- I guess the one (1) 9 concern being raised was if you're from Kettle Point you 10 weren't welcome. And if you were from anywhere else, 11 the door was wide open and the people who were wanting 12 to go there were people that actually were the 13 descendants of the people that own -- had location 14 tickets there. 15 Q: And were the concerns -- the 16 concerns that members of the community had are set out 17 in Exhibit 43, the -- the minutes? 18 A: Yes. That's generally the concerns 19 that we, as a Council, take from the membership when -- 20 when those matters are -- are raised; that we have to 21 deal with them. And we tried to deal with them in a way 22 -- issued that press release and basically say we 23 appreciated the support but because we were into 24 negotiations we wanted to continue on that process. 25 Q: Perhaps now would be a good time for

1 the morning break? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Very good 3 time. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 5 for fifteen (15) minutes. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 10:37 a.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 10:55 a.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed. Please be seated. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: Chief Bressette, before the break, 17 we were talking about the press release that was marked 18 as an exhibit. I believe it was -- 19 THE REGISTRAR: 246. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 22 Q: -- 246, and we were also looking at 23 Exhibit 43, which is at Tab 29 of the black book, the 24 minutes of the general Council meeting on August 1st and 25 one (1) of the things that was discussed at that

1 meeting, as I understand it, were the principles of 2 negotiations? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And if I can take you to Tab 30, and 5 the page following the press release, there's a 6 document, it's a letter dated August 3, 1995, Kettle 7 and Stoney Point Council and it's -- this document's 8 already been marked as Exhibit 30. 9 It's Inquiry Document 3000370 and this is 10 a letter that you wrote to the Kettle and Stoney Point 11 Band members who were occupying Camp Ipperwash? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And this letter refers to the 14 community meeting. It refers to the principles of 15 negotiating the return and the negotiating process, and 16 if I might, in the second full paragraph it says, 17 "First of all, the majority of the 18 community members who attended the 19 community meeting feel the non-Band 20 members occupying the Stoney Point 21 lands should be thanked for their 22 support and respectfully asked to 23 leave. This does not include the Band 24 members." 25 And you're simply, in this letter,

1 repeating what was the general consensus at the meeting? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what did you do with this 4 letter, Chief Bressette? 5 A: There were a number of photocopies 6 of this letter made and we took a large stack of them 7 down to the -- down to the gatehouse at Stoney Point and 8 we asked to see -- speak to whoever was in -- in charge 9 down there and we were basically told nobody was in 10 charge. 11 And then we were basically told that we 12 weren't wanted there, so we turned around, we left the 13 documents there and we told them this is a letter that 14 we'd like for you to disseminate and we -- we proceeded 15 to leave. 16 As we were leaving, someone grabbed a 17 stack of letters and one (1) of the councillors were 18 leaving the gate area and they came and they throw them 19 in the back of the truck that he was driving and they 20 didn't accept the letters. 21 I don't know if they kept any, but that's 22 all I could see, when we were leaving that -- and was 23 reported to me when we got back to the office, that they 24 had thrown the letters in the back of the truck. 25 Q: So, do I take it from what you said

1 that a number of your Band councillors went with you 2 down to the -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- Army Camp? And you went in more 5 than one (1) vehicle? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And so that the letters that you 8 attempted to leave were thrown back into someone's 9 truck? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And shortly after August the 3rd, 12 you went away on vacation. Do you know when you went 13 away on vacation, Chief Bressette, approximately? 14 A: I don't -- really don't remember. I 15 know I hadn't had a vacation for a couple of years and - 16 - and they just decided I needed to have a break and I 17 left. I really don't know, it was I think one (1) of 18 those times where you -- where you start to forget what 19 day it is and things like that, so it was time for me to 20 move aside and let somebody else look after business and 21 I left. 22 Q: And how -- for about -- 23 approximately how long were you away, Chief Bressette? 24 A: I'm not really sure. I -- I wish I 25 could remember all of that, but all I know is I did go

1 on a -- I took a break, whether it was a week or so, I'm 2 not sure. 3 Q: Okay. And -- 4 A: You know, the reason why I -- 5 another reason why I left, I never got to see my family. 6 I was basically consumed with all of this work all along 7 and my children, I never got any -- any time to spend 8 with them all that whole summer. 9 Q: And prior to leaving, was there an 10 attempt made by you or an approach made to you to have 11 Mr. Ovide Mercredi act as a mediator with respect to the 12 issues between the -- among the Band members over Stoney 13 Point? 14 A: Yes, I -- I believe there was a lot 15 of attention in the media what was going on and I did 16 get a call from the National Chief's Office and he did 17 say he had some experience in dealing with these type of 18 matters in the past and that he would be -- offer his 19 services to us if we had asked and I think I -- I did 20 state that at the Band meeting that he did offer to come 21 and try to do some mediation because we had paid 22 mediators before and -- and -- and trying to find 23 solutions and, like you stated, we had spent in the 24 hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to deal with 25 these kinds of issues and -- and they were never

1 resolved. 2 Q: And did -- was there a mediation 3 attempted through Mr. Mercredi? 4 A: I'm not sure whether he actually did 5 -- I don't think he actually did become involved until I 6 had called him on September the 7th. 7 Q: Perhaps, to assist, at Tab 93 of the 8 book that's in front of you, and I know from yesterday 9 your view of newspaper articles, but there is a 10 newspaper article that I would like to take you to, it's 11 Inquiry Document 9000613. 12 It's an article from the London Free 13 Press dated August 4, 1995 and it's written by Julie 14 Carl and there's a reference, Chief Bressette, to you. 15 It says: 16 "Chief Tom Bressette says he has been 17 told natives occupying the Base don't 18 want the National Chief involved." 19 And the -- if you look at the one (1), 20 two (2), three (3), fourth paragraph down, near the 21 picture of Mr. Mercredi -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: "Kettle and Stoney Point First 24 Nation Chief, Tom Bressette, said Mercredi, National 25 Chief of First Nations, has -- had offered to act as a

1 mediator, but Bressette, who has not communicated 2 directly with the natives as the Camp said he was given 3 the message they did not want Mercredi to mediate." 4 And do you recall making that -- was 5 that, in fact, correct that you had been told that -- by 6 someone that the Occupiers did not want to mediate 7 through Mr. Mercredi? 8 A: I -- I think so. 9 Q: And perhaps we'll mark that as the 10 next exhibit, it would be 247. 11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. P-247, Your 12 Honour. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-247. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-247: Document Number 9000613 Aug. 16 04/95 London Free Press 17 Article "Mercredi Mediation 18 in Doubt" 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: Then, if we could -- prior to going 22 away on your vacation in August 1995, do you recall if 23 you had any telephone calls or meetings with members of 24 the OPP? 25 A: I'm not sure, I may have.

1 Q: Okay. Do you recall any -- do you 2 recall any meetings with Mr. John Carson? 3 A: Well, Mr. Carson called me quite 4 regularly and when he did I -- I did inform him what the 5 newspaper article said. I -- I didn't have direct 6 communication or didn't have no way of being able to 7 deal with the questions that he had. 8 Q: And do you -- did you have any 9 discussions -- and this is before September 4th, 1995, 10 in the summer of 1995 with Mr. Dale Linton, an OPP 11 officer? 12 A: I -- I'm really not clear. I -- I 13 think I did have meetings with them. They came down to 14 the community and they were always asking questions and 15 I couldn't answer the kind of questions they asked me. 16 Q: When you say they're "asking 17 questions," what kind of questions? 18 A: Like what's going on inside there? 19 Is there, you know, is there this going on in there? Do 20 they have weapons, do they have this or that? And I've 21 always told them directly what I heard. People tell me 22 they've seen them. I've never seen them personally, so 23 I said I don't know whether they're there or not. 24 Q: And during this period, prior to 25 September 4th, 1995, did you have any contact with the

1 federal member of parliament for this area? I believe 2 it's Ms. Ur. 3 A: I don't know. I -- I communicate 4 regularly with the member of parliament, I know that. 5 Q: But do you recall any communication 6 from her office during this period of time, prior to 7 September 4th? 8 A: I think, you know, I may have had a 9 discussion because there was concern, I guess, that I 10 had that, you know, the impact this was having on -- on 11 the relations with -- with other people. The business 12 people in the community were quite concerned that they 13 were losing business at the time and they wanted 14 something done about -- about what was happening 15 generally in the area. 16 They felt that we should be taking a more 17 pro-active role in trying to deal with these things 18 instead of just basically not communicating with the 19 folks there. And they said that, you know, something 20 had to be done. They were impacting the businesses. 21 Q: And these were businesses of -- 22 owned by both First Nation people and non First Nation 23 people? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And we talked a little bit yesterday

1 about tourism and the importance of tourism. And people 2 felt that it was impacting on businesses related to 3 tourism? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Do you recall, prior to September 6 4th, 1995, have any -- having any discussions with Mr. 7 Marcel Beaubien, who had just recently been elected the 8 member of provincial parliament for this area? 9 A: Well, Mr. Beaubien is another one 10 who was always calling me and asking me what was going 11 on. And, you know, I -- I told Mr. Beaubien, look I 12 don't know what's going on in terms of actually who's 13 doing what and he kept asking me the same kind of 14 information the OPP were. 15 Q: And now was this before September 16 4th or can you tell -- 17 A: I think it was before. He -- he 18 called me directly at one (1) point and asked me to go 19 to his office. 20 Q: Did you do that? 21 A: Yeah I went to -- to his office and 22 I -- I had a discussion with him and -- I mean he had 23 pretty much made up his mind already what he wanted to 24 do. And I was there I guess just to be called in for 25 whatever purpose he -- he felt he needed to discuss with

1 me. 2 But I -- I always told him, look I'm not 3 in direct communications. I'm not directing what is 4 going on there. I'm not involved what's going on down 5 there. And the Council has publicly stated on numerous 6 occasions, we don't support what's going on down there. 7 Q: And when you say down there, you're 8 referring to the Army Camp? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: This is before the Park? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And where was Mr. Beaubien's office? 13 Was it -- 14 A: It was on Highway 21 as you go into 15 Petrolia. There's -- I don't know what kind of building 16 it is but there's -- it's on the right hand side anyway. 17 Q: But it's near Petrolia? 18 A: Yeah, it's near the intersection 19 there about maybe a thousand (1000) feet down the road 20 on the right hand side as you're going south. 21 Q: Then if I could take you to -- 22 excuse me, Commissioner, Tab 35 of the black book in 23 front of you. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 Q: It's Inquiry Document 1009637 and 2 it's an article from the London Free Press dated August 3 28th, 1995. Perhaps we could mark this as the next 4 exhibit. It would be -- 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-248, your Honour. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-248. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-248: Document Number 1009637 Aug. 9 28/95 London Free Press 10 Article "Heightened OPP 11 Presence Unsettles Campers" 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: And there's a reference to the Park. 15 There's a reference in the second paragraph at the 16 bottom, second column, excuse me, the last paragraph: 17 "Meanwhile Kettle and Stoney Point 18 Band Chief, Tom Bressette, said, 19 'Despite talk, a takeover by breakaway 20 Stoney Pointers when the Park closes 21 after Labour Day weekend isn't 22 likely.' 23 The Park is said to be built on native 24 burial grounds, Bressette said. As 25 for an environmental assessment of the

1 Camp, the final stumbling block to 2 reclaiming the lands, said Bressette, 3 negotiations are at a standstill. The 4 Band wants money to