1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 July 14th, 2004 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  
  3  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  4  Susan Vella        )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  Don Worme          )
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein )            The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )            George and George Andrew
 10  Andrew Okin        )  (Np)      Family Group
 11  
 12  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 13  Jackie Esmonde   )   (Np)       Family Group
 14  
 15  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 16  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena
 17                                   (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stony
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )              Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )
 24  Sue Freeborn     )   (Np)
 25

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  4  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  5  
  6  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  7  Bill Hourigan    )   (Np)       Harris
  8  Jennifer McAleer )
  9  
 10  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 11  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 12  
 13  Harvey Stosberg  )   (Np)       Charles Narnick
 14  Jacqueline Horvat )
 15  
 16  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 17  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (Np)
 18  
 19  Mark Sandler       ) (Np)       Ontario Provincial 
 20  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Police
 21  
 22  Ian Roland       )              Ontario Provincial 
 23  Karen Jones      )   (Np)       Police Association &
 24                                   K. Deane
 25

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )              Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  
  6  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
  7                                   Coroner
  8  
  9  William Horton   )              Chiefs of Ontario
 10  Matthew Horner   )   (Np)
 11  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 12  
 13  Mark Frederick   )              Christopher Hodgson
 14  
 15  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 16  Anna Perschy     )   (Np)
 17  
 18  
 19  
 20  
 21  
 22  
 23  
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 List of Exhibits 6 4 5 DARLENE JOHNSTON, Resumed 6 7 Continued Examination-in-Chief 8 by Mr. Derry Millar 7 9 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 236 11 12 Certificate of Transcript 247 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 LIST OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 P-6 Large Map that shows the area 4 on the right hand side, Lake 5 Ontario on the left hand side, 6 Lake Huron, Lake St. Clair and 7 on the bottom, Lake Erie, and 8 marked in red on that map is 9 what is now the Thames River, 10 but it's on there, Riviere La 11 Tranche, the Chenail Ecarte's 12 marked in red, as well as 13 River Aux Sable. 87 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

7
  1  --- Upon resuming at 10:00 a.m.
  2  
  3                 THE REGISTRAR:   This public inquiry is
  4  now in session.  The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden
  5  presiding.  Please be seated.
  6                 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN:   Good morning
  7  everybody.
  8                 MR. DERRY MILLAR:   Good morning,
  9  Commissioner.
 10  
 11                        DARLENE JOHNSTON, Resumed:
 12  
 13  CONTINUED EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:
 14                 Q:   Thank you.  We're just waiting for
 15  the computer to come up.
 16                 A:   Oh, I'm sorry.
 17                 Q:   Now, yesterday, Professor Johnston,
 18  we had reached the stage of just before the 1790 purchase
 19  and we have a message.
 20                 A:   Sorry.
 21  
 22                        (BRIEF PAUSE)
 23  
 24                 Q:   And the reference in your report is
 25  to page 16 and you have this slide of Lake Huron in 1788

1 up on the screen. Did you want to start from there? 2 A: Yes, thank you. This slide is a 3 portion of a map that was commissioned by the British 4 Admiralty. The naval surveyor was Gother Mann, G-O-T-H- 5 E-R, his surname M-A-N-N. 6 And he did the first complete survey of 7 Lake Huron for the British. Remember the French had very 8 good maps for the region, but the British were relative 9 late comers and Mann did a -- a very detailed survey. 10 So, I'm presenting this map, partly to 11 remind people about the territory that we're concerned 12 with and to show some of the significant landmarks as 13 they were mapped by Mann in 1788. 14 This is only a partial copy of the map. 15 It goes up over the peninsula and up to Manitoulin in the 16 Straits at Makinac and Sault St. Marie. But it's the 17 first detailed British map of southern Lake Huron and in 18 fact it's this map or tracings of it that the British 19 used in their treaty process. 20 Governor Simcoe, his -- his wife actually, 21 was a map maker and she made many copies of Mann's map 22 that were used for various official records. 23 So, we start down at the entrance to Lake 24 Huron. Lake St. Clair isn't actually shown on the map 25 but the River St. Clair is and there's rapids marked

1 here. These rapids become an important marker for 2 subsequent reserves. 3 Q: And you're pointing to the bottom of 4 what is now -- the bottom of Lake Huron on the slide? 5 A: Yes. The bottom of Lake Huron on the 6 east side of the St. Clair River. It's important to 7 remember as well, this is 1788. It's after the American 8 War of Independence. It's after the Treaty which 9 resolved that conflict, the Treaty of 1783, Treaty of 10 Paris, 1783. 11 And the British had agreed that the 12 Americans, when they complied with all the other aspects 13 of the treaty would take delivery of the posts and the 14 territories west of the St. Clair River. 15 So, for today, we're going to be focusing 16 in the -- the history of the communities we're interested 17 in on the territory to the east side of Lake St. Clair, 18 east side of Detroit, east side of the -- the St. Clair 19 River and the east -- eastern shore of the main basin of 20 Lake Huron. 21 Q: Thank you. 22 A: So, he -- again he shows the rapids 23 here at just before the entrance and then he talks about 24 this -- there's a coast here that's quite sandy. He 25 shows a very discrete outcropping here and these little

1 X's mean that he took soundings there to see how deep it 2 was -- how deep the waters were. 3 Q: And you're pointing to just up from 4 the bottom of the lake, an area on the eastern shore 5 where there's four (4) dots out in -- shown in the water. 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: Thank you. 8 A: And we'll see this feature mapped 9 again. Mann does not give it a name but the next naval 10 surveyor does and he names it Ipperwash. 11 Then there's a creek, or a small creek 12 probably because he doesn't call it a river, opening just 13 to the north of this feature and when you go further to 14 the east -- northeast and he talks about -- he notes that 15 there are sand dunes along the shore and then he gives a 16 name to this river and this name becomes very important 17 for the treaty record. 18 This is -- he writes "R" for river "O-A-U" 19 and then "Sable", S-A-B-L-E. So, we have the River Aux 20 Sable showing up on the eastern coast of the main basin 21 of Lake Huron. 22 The next river that gets marked, well, he 23 doesn't give it a name. There are a number of -- of 24 streams going through here but we'll keep an eye on this 25 river up to the north. Again, there's a small

1 indentation in the shore where it turns to go more to the 2 northeast and there's a river there. 3 Q: And that river is on that map about 4 the middle on the -- that right-hand side of the map 5 under some writing "sandy beach"? 6 A: There's sandy beach here north of the 7 river and below the river he says "clay cliffs" and a 8 number of other things which aren't -- 9 Q: Thank you. 10 A: -- intelligible. 11 Q: I'm just trying to identify it for 12 the purposes of the record. 13 A: Yes, okay. And just for people again 14 when we start looking at the purchases, these rivers 15 become vitally important. This river here and what Mann 16 has called the River Aux Sable and then the rapids. 17 Q: Do we know the name of -- did he 18 assign a name to that river -- 19 A: No. 20 Q: -- upper river? 21 A: It's modern name is the Maitland 22 River. It's just north of -- or in the vicinity of 23 modern day Goderich but Mann does not assign a name to 24 it. 25 The next surveyor does but he gives it an

1 Ojibwe name not a -- not an English name. 2 Q: Thank you. 3 A: And then just to recall that before 4 the American War of Independence there were quite a lot 5 of -- a number of villages around the -- the Detroit 6 area. Maybe I'll go back to the map we had yesterday. 7 Q: Yes. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: Sorry, we don't seem to have the map. 12 13 Q: No, we'll go get it. We actually 14 didn't mark that map yesterday but we'll -- we'll go get 15 it and bring it in. It's -- you had -- we had a slide 16 but Ms. Vella will be -- will be right back. 17 A: Perhaps we could work with this map 18 for a minute then? 19 Q: Sure. 20 A: Okay. Oh, here she comes. Remember, 21 this is the map from the French regime by Chaussegros de 22 Levy from 1725. Here's the Fort Detroit. We have 23 Potawatomis, Hurons, Ottawas, Mississaugas and Sauteurs. 24 And then by the 1760s when the British 25 come for their treaty at Detroit Potawatomis sign the

1 treaty. We have people signing as -- as well as 2 Chippewas and Ottawas, people signing as Caribou, as 3 Crane, as some species of fish as well as the -- the 4 Eagles. 5 Wabanque is a -- an eagle chief. His 6 territory is over on Lake Ontario. He signed the 1764 7 treaty at Niagara. So, when we go back to the French 8 regime we see the Mississaugas and the Sauteurs. 9 By the time the treaty period begins the 10 Mississaugas are pretty much living in this territory; 11 that is in the vicinity of the Grand River, on Lake Erie 12 and all the way going east above the shores of Lake 13 Ontario. 14 Q: And then you're pointing to the north 15 side of Lake Erie on the right-hand side of that slide? 16 A: Yes. And then the -- the Sauteurs, 17 the people who the French called Sauteurs, the British 18 start calling Chippewa and so we have the -- remember 19 with Yellowheads Wampum the -- the Eagle was at the River 20 Credit and the Caribou were -- had responsibility in this 21 area and we see -- 22 Q: This area, just I'll -- 23 A: Sorry. 24 Q: Georgian Bay? 25 A: That's right.

1 Q: And the Saugeen Peninsular, modern 2 Bruce Peninsular and the -- the northwest portion along 3 Lake Huron? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: And, in fact, Yellowhead and his 7 predecessors were called the Chiefs of Lake Huron and 8 Simcoe so they did have claims going -- that covered this 9 -- both the Georgian Bay, Lake Simcoe, Lake Huron area. 10 So, by the time we get to the first 11 purchase agreements, as I said, we have the Mississaugas 12 going this way and the Chippewas going -- the 13 Mississaugas going on the north shore, the northeast 14 shore of Lake Erie and the north shore of Lake Ontario, 15 and the Chippewas coming down south from Lake Simcoe 16 along the -- along the Lake Huron shore. 17 We still have Ottawas and Potawatomis in 18 the region as well, we'll see from the treaty, and the 19 first purchase and -- and Hurons. 20 And also recall -- I mentioned yesterday 21 that the American War of Independence, many of the 22 Haudenosaunee nations sided with the British and fought 23 with the British and their territorial rights weren't 24 protected in the Treaty of Paris. 25 And so the governor of Quebec, Haldimand,

1 he was in charge of the western region into the Great 2 Lakes; Frederick Haldimand. He wanted to do something to 3 make up for the Haudenosaunee losses and he called upon 4 the Mississaugas to surrender land so that the 5 Haudenosaunee could come from their traditional terries - 6 - territories south of Lake Ontario up onto -- into 7 British territory, what was now British territory as 8 opposed to American territory. 9 And so the Mississaugas signed a surrender 10 somewhat west of the Grand River, going towards the head 11 of Lake Ontario, Burlington Bay. And that land was then 12 -- the Mississaugas was asked to surrender it for the 13 purpose of accommodating the Haudenosaunee and they did 14 so, and then the Six (6) Nations, the Haudenosaunee moved 15 and settled at a village and they had a grant for six (6) 16 miles on either side of -- of the Grand River. 17 So, before we get to the first Chippewa 18 treaty, this is important, we've already had a surrender 19 by the Mississaugas of some of their lands, but that 20 surrender has been to make room for His Majesty's Indian 21 allies who have suffered territorial losses during the 22 American War of Independence. 23 Q: So, that they -- they -- the 24 purchase, was it a purchase or ... 25 A: It was a purchase from the

1 Mississaugas. I don't have a copy of it in my materials 2 but the boundary becomes relevant to the next treaty that 3 we look at. 4 Q: And that was in order to permit the 5 Haudenosaunee to move from the United States into British 6 territory and what is now Canada? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Thank you. 9 A: On the -- on the Grand River, the 10 Grand River territory on the north shore of Lake Erie. 11 They are still there today, although the reserve is much 12 reduced. 13 Q: Thank you. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Now, we saw yesterday that the 18 Algonquian speaking peoples, the Anishnaabeg had a very 19 long standing relationship with the French, and they 20 called the French their father and they were his 21 children. 22 And again, the designation of father and 23 child in Anishnaabeg culture does not speak so much to 24 dominance and control as to responsibility for a mutual 25 support and sustenance and -- and that's -- we see this

1 terminology, then, being adopted by the British when they 2 bring the Great Lakes peoples, the Algonquian speaking 3 peoples into the -- the covenant chain in 1764. 4 And you'll see in the minutes of the 5 various treaties, this language is constantly being used; 6 of father and child. And it's important to understand 7 these transactions that we're going to consider as not 8 simply real estate deals, as not simply purchases. 9 These are requests that are being made by 10 a father of his children and the children have promised 11 to be loyal and to support the King in both peace and war 12 and the King in return has promised to support the -- the 13 Indian nations and to provide that their lives will never 14 become impoverished. 15 And so it's in the context of that 16 relationship and those mutual obligations of defence and 17 support, that these requests for land are being made and 18 I'm -- can't emphasise too much the importance of 19 understanding the kinship metaphor that's being used and 20 the obligations that the Indian signatories to the 21 treaties or the purchases feel themselves under whenever 22 they're being asked by the King's representatives for 23 land. 24 Now, in this early period in the 1790's, 25 the Indian Department was still a branch of the Military

1 Department. Because the Indians were primarily seen as 2 allies they were important for -- for their military 3 support. 4 Later on, we'll see that the 5 Administration of Indian Affairs gets moved to civil 6 side, but that's -- that's -- you have to wait till about 7 1829 for that to happen. 8 So, it's important to know then, that the 9 people who were negotiating these treaties and who are 10 making these requests are actually military people who 11 fought with the Indians, both in the American War of 12 Independence and then we'll see later, in the War of 13 1812. 14 So, there's a very longstanding 15 relationship between these departmental officials. These 16 people have fought together and they -- the -- the 17 loyalty that exists between them and the trust is of the 18 -- of the highest order. 19 Now, after the six (6) nations moved north 20 there were also -- they were His Majesty's loyal -- 21 Indian loyalists but there were other loyalists in the 22 American Colonies who, likewise, wanted to move into 23 British territory. 24 And so there was an influx that people are 25 familiar with of the United Empire Loyalists and they

1 were coming across primarily in the St. Laurence region, 2 in around Prescott and Cornwall but there were also some 3 people coming up through Lake Erie and southern Lake 4 Ontario and looking for lands. 5 And so the King's Representatives and the 6 officials in the Indian Department, Alexander McKee in 7 particular, was asked to see whether the Indians on the 8 north shore of Lake Erie would sell some lands to 9 accommodate these people that were coming looking -- 10 looking for refuge within the Kings territory. 11 And the -- I have a quotation here on the 12 screen from Alexander McKee; this is from a treaty he 13 makes in 1796 but that's actually a bit out of order. I 14 want to speak first to the 1790 purchase which is the 15 first purchase affecting these lands and the people that 16 were interested in -- I'll go ahead to the map first. 17 This is similar to the map that -- that we 18 see on the -- on the stand. Now, again, we have a 19 depiction of the lands between Lake Erie and Lake Huron. 20 And we see the River Aux Sable marked and, again, that's 21 from Gother Mann's map. 22 We also see the River La Tranche which 23 goes up towards modern day London. The French called it 24 River La Tranche. The British later named it to the 25 Thames River after -- Simcoe named it Thames after the

1 river in London, England. And he named the capital 2 London after -- on the Thames. 3 And he -- he -- at one point, in the 4 beginning the Government headquarters were at Niagara but 5 Simcoe wasn't comfortable being on the coast and he 6 wanted to move inland so he -- he had a grand plan for 7 London to become the capital of -- of Upper Canada. 8 So, he was interested then in these -- in 9 these lands and having people settled here. Again, in 10 close proximity to the Americans but the more settlers, 11 then the less of a threat they felt from the -- from the 12 Americans. 13 So Alexander McKee then was sent to -- to 14 negotiate for a parcel of land and his instructions were, 15 start where the Mississauga purchase ends off. Remember, 16 the Mississauga sold land to the British for the 17 Haudenosaunee settlement. 18 This is the Grand River here and there's a 19 creek -- 20 Q: The Grand River's is to the right -- 21 A: Yes. And then you see a vertical 22 line going up ninety (90) degrees from the shore of Lake 23 Erie; that's the western limit of the Mississauga 24 purchase and it's going to become the eastern limit of 25 the first purchase of the British from the nations living

1 in this territory. 2 Q: And in this territory, it's the 3 territory in the -- bounded by Lake Huron at the -- at 4 the top and Lake Erie at the bottom; it's the western end 5 of Lake Erie? 6 A: That's right. And -- and remember 7 again by this time that the Americans are on the west 8 side of the Detroit River and the people interested in 9 being loyal to the British are on the east side. 10 And there is a Huron village down on the 11 east side of the Detroit River before you get to Lake St. 12 Clair then you come up and the first major river going in 13 on Lake St. Clair is River La Tranche. The second major 14 river going north on Lake St. Clair and then inland is 15 Chenail Ecarte; that's French again for the divided 16 channel. 17 Shennail, S-H-E-N-N-A-I-L, and Ecarte, E- 18 C-A-R-T-E. So, these are the rivers that become most 19 important in understanding the territory and the 20 purchases. We have the Thames River, Chenail Ecarte and 21 the River Aux Sable. 22 And what the King decided to ask for was 23 the lands going west from the boundary of the Mississauga 24 purchase, down along the lakeshore of Lake Erie, up the 25 west coast of the Detroit River, along the west coast of

1 Lake St. Clair, up to the mouth of the Chenail Ecarte. 2 Now, those rivers at the north -- sorry, 3 those islands at the mouth of the Chenail Ecarte and the 4 -- the -- the main is Walpole Island, which is today 5 continues to be a reserve for Anishnaabeg people in -- in 6 Lake St. Clair. 7 And the -- the map gets to the entrance of 8 the Chenail Ecarte then it runs on a course, almost due 9 east, until it hits the Riviere La Tranche or the Thames 10 River, and then it follows the Thames River back to its 11 intersection with the -- the western limit of the 12 Mississauga purchase. 13 Q: And that -- that line -- the vertical 14 line, that's the western limit of the Mississauga 15 purchase that runs north on this -- to the top of the 16 page, starting at the -- by the Riviere Chaudiere, I 17 think it is, marked on your -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- slide? 20 A: It also has a name of a creek and 21 that -- that term will show up in one (1) of the later 22 documents. So, this is a very substantial area of land. 23 The treaty itself does not indicate the acreage. Most 24 subsequent treaties do indicate the acreage but we -- 25 there -- there's no indication in the treaty of how much

1 land the people are being asked for. 2 It's actually probably -- it's 3 considerably smaller than the -- the Mississauga 4 purchase, but it -- it takes in lands basically south of 5 the River Thames. 6 So, the -- the people are being asked to 7 give up their lands south of Chenail Ecarte and the River 8 Thames down to Lake Huron. Remember, this is a request 9 that's coming from the King, they joined their hands in 10 friendship with the King in 1763. 11 And then this -- they fought with him in 12 the War of American Independence and now they're being 13 asked to make room for his Majesty's other children, his 14 -- his settlers from -- from the American colonies. 15 And so, they -- the chiefs of the Four (4) 16 Nations, it's important to remember at this time there 17 are still, as far as the British are concerned, Four (4) 18 Nations in this territory. There are Hurons, 19 Potawatomis, Ottawas and Chippewas. 20 Remember those are designations that the 21 British use. They don't coincide with totemic identity. 22 We'll see something -- evidence of totemic identity in a 23 moment. 24 But on the 19th of May, 1790, William 25 McKee met in Council at Detroit. They still had control

1 of the post of Detroit because the treaty terms hadn't 2 been finalized yet. 3 And when the departmental officials met 4 with the -- the various chiefs of the Four (4) Nations, 5 they're -- they -- their principle chief rose, Egouch-e- 6 ouay who was a chief of the Ottawa, rose to -- to make a 7 speech in response to the request that they heard for 8 land. 9 And it's important when considering the 10 treaties not simply to rely on the typed treaty document, 11 because that's -- that's a partial version of the 12 history. The maps that accompany the treaty are also 13 important and the speeches that were made during the 14 treaty meeting are also an important part of 15 understanding the transaction. 16 Now, I have to apologize, because I have a 17 speech which didn't make it into my binder, but I'd like 18 to read at least part of it. I think it's quite 19 demonstrative of the ethic at work. 20 Q: Sure. What we could do is, 21 Commissioner, with your permission after -- at the break 22 or at lunch we'll get copies made for everyone and it 23 could be simply added to Exhibit 2 of this document -- to 24 Exhibit 2. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That makes

1 sense. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay, the document is dated 3 May 19th, 1790 and it's from Record Group 10, in the 4 Department of Indian Affairs, Volume 1832. And the page 5 reference is two six nine (269) to two nine five (295). 6 It's a very long document going with all the meetings, 7 all the speeches. 8 And it's on Microfilm Reel C-1223. I have 9 a typed transcript which we will provide. 10 It -- the part that I wanted to read then 11 was that Agushuwee is the chief of the Ottawas in the 12 name of the 13 lakes confederacy. This is a term that gets used to 14 refer to the Four (4) Nations, the Chippewas, Ottawas, 15 Potawatomis and the Hurons, and he's speaking on behalf 16 of all of them. He's not just speaking for the Ottawas 17 and he's not just speaking for people who belong to his 18 particular totemic group. 19 He says: 20 "Father, we are now within the paternal 21 house," 22 That is the -- the British fort. 23 "Where everyone is free to speak his 24 mind. Therefore, father, I request you 25 to hear me. I request the same of our

1 fathers, the officers, our brethren and 2 merchants. 3 And all of you, my brothers, of my own 4 colour, Indians of different Nations." 5 So, he's speaking again in this -- this 6 metaphoric -- metaphorical kinship 7 relationship; the father, and children 8 and the brothers. It's the idea that 9 they're one (1) big family, because 10 they've entered into this political 11 alliance. 12 He says: 13 "Father, the Great King had written to 14 them to know if we would cede him a piece of 15 land." 16 Sorry, I skipped a part: 17 "Father, you have told us that you have 18 received letters from our father, the 19 General, and our father, Sir John 20 Johnson." 21 Sir John Johnson is the son of Sir William 22 Johnson, and he was the head of the Indian Department in 23 Quebec, and he lived at Montreal. He travelled a few 24 times to this area, but he wasn't -- he was there for the 25 Mississauga purchase, but not -- not for this purchase.

1 "I bring to you what our father, the 2 Great King, had written to them, to 3 know if we would cede him a piece of 4 land extending from the other side of 5 the river, to the line of that ceded by 6 the Mississagues. 7 Father, is there a man amongst us who 8 will refuse what is asked by a father 9 so good and so generous that he had 10 never yet refused us anything. What 11 Nation? None, father. We have agreed 12 to grant all you ask, according to the 13 limits settled between us and you, and 14 which we are well acquainted with. We 15 grant it to you all, father, in the 16 presence of our father's, the officers, 17 and our brothers, the merchants." 18 And so the obligation to respond to the 19 King's generosity and care, is to grant his request. In 20 the Anishnaabeg culture, when people are asked something, 21 it's actually very, very hard to refuse. And people 22 often avoid putting their request directly, because it is 23 so hard to refuse. 24 But the King made a very direct request, 25 it was communicated through his officers, and the Indian

1 Nations felt obliged to accept it, primarily, I think, 2 because they wanted -- their father had not yet refused 3 them anything, once they made their alliance with the 4 British. 5 And so they had no basis for refusing his 6 request and no reason to fear that by granting his 7 request it would lead to their -- any hardship on their 8 part, because remember the Twenty-Four (24) Nations Belt 9 had promised that they would never become impoverished, 10 that they would always have their sustenance provided. 11 So, then this is the first purchase from 12 the people in the vicinity of Lake Huron, and -- and Lake 13 Erie. Again, these are the boundaries of the purchase. 14 And it means that the land along the north shore of Lake 15 Erie now, has been entirely surrendered, because the 16 Mississagues lands to the east of the Chippewa lands have 17 been surrendered. That's -- I'm sorry, not surrendered, 18 purchased. 19 They're not styled as surrenders at this 20 point; they've been purchased by the King's 21 representatives. And the area of the Grand River has 22 been reserved for His Majesty's Indian allies, the 23 Haudenosaunee and there's an expectation that American 24 United Empire Loyalists will also come into this area. 25 There's also an expectation that it

1 wouldn't just be settlers, non-aboriginal settlers that 2 would come to this area, but also other Anishnaabeg 3 allies of the British, who were finding their lives more 4 difficult on the American side of the border. 5 Q: So, that the area would be used by 6 both aboriginal and non-aboriginal people? 7 A: That's right. And that again becomes 8 clear when they speak of the King and his officers as 9 their father, and the merchants as their brothers. So, 10 they're incorporating not just the officials, but the 11 people who are coming into their territory, into this 12 kinship network. 13 Now, the written text of the Treaty has 14 been published, as most Treaties have, in a series 15 published by the Queen's Printer at the turn of the 16 century, called 'Indian Treaties and Surrenders'. Not 17 every Treaty that we're going to consider today is 18 actually published in this book. 19 And in my experience, a lot of people rely 20 on this book, as comprehensive in terms of dealing with 21 the Treaties. And from my perspective, there's one (1) 22 huge flaw with this publication, because what it does, is 23 it takes the Treaties which were all written in 24 manuscript, in handwriting, and they had to be signed -- 25 for your formal purchases, that according to British

1 standards, you signed and sealed and delivered, and when 2 the Treaties were collected by the Department of Indian 3 Affairs and published as a series, they get published in 4 typeset; they're no longer in handwriting. And that's 5 probably to make them easy to read, because the 6 manuscript sometimes can be quite difficult. 7 But what also happened in the typesetting 8 process, is that they would type the names of the 9 signatories, and in this case this -- this Treaty, the 10 1790 purchase, becomes known as Treaty Number 2. And 11 it's in your materials and under the date 1790. Let's 12 see what tab it is, (4000444)? 13 Q: That would be it. 14 A: Okay. And so you can -- you can see 15 it typeset, and if you turn to the page that has the 16 signatories, we see that there's Potawatomis, that 17 there's Hurons, that there's Chippewas and that there's 18 Ottawas; the Chiefs sign under different tribal or 19 national designations. They speak of these -- these 20 ordinate -- these -- that this level of organization as a 21 Nation. 22 So, we have a Chippewa Chief Wasson, who 23 according to this typeset version has signed the Treaty. 24 We know Wasson signed the Detroit Treaty as a Crane, but 25 there are other Chippewas who signed here that didn't

1 sign the Detroit Treaty. 2 And if you rely on the printed version, 3 the published version of the Treaty, opposite the Chief's 4 names, it says in brackets, dodaim, dodaim, dodaim. It 5 doesn't say what dodaim, and no effort is made to 6 reproduce the dodaims. 7 And so when people rely on the typed 8 version of the Treaties, they lose any indication of 9 totemic identity, and as I've been making efforts to 10 explain, in my opinion, totemic identity in fact is the 11 most stable ethnic identifier and indicator of 12 territorial rights and governance rights. 13 And so to the extent that people rely on 14 the typeset treaties, a whole aspect of aboriginal 15 history and identity and culture is lost. 16 Q: And then the -- and in addition, I 17 haven't seen the text, but I presume the speeches are not 18 published as well? 19 A: That's right, the speeches are not 20 published. The American Treaty collection consists in 21 two (2) parts. And the one (1) is the proceedings of 22 Treaties which contains all the speeches, and then 23 there's actually the Treaty documents. But this is the 24 official Canadian collection done by the Queen's Printer; 25 there are no speeches and no marks.

1 The only time marks show up, is when 2 they've reproduced a map, and because they're producing a 3 map it's graphic, and then if they happen to sign the 4 map, sometimes the signatures appear on the map. But the 5 signatures are never reproduced and the totemic identity 6 is lost, unless it happens to be referred to in the text 7 of the Treaty. 8 Sometimes they'll say -- one (1) of 9 Yellowhead's Treaties they say, he's the Chief of the 10 Reindeer tribe of the Chippewa Nation. So, that helps, 11 but it's not -- then you only get the Chief's names, you 12 don't get the other signatories or their totemic 13 identity. 14 To find the manuscript originals of the 15 Treaties, you have to go to Record Group 10, Volume 1845, 16 I think. I'll double check that in a -- in a minute. 17 Q: And the -- the original manuscript 18 with the -- with the totemic identities are -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- are, I think on there? 21 A: I have a slide -- I have a slide of it 22 here. 23 Q: Ah, great. 24 A: Okay. So, this is a slide that was 25 prepared from the original manuscript document of the

1 1790 purchase. The actual text of the document's quite 2 hard to read in terms of the handwriting, so I haven't 3 reproduced it, but I have reproduced the totemic images; 4 the signature section. 5 And you'll see there are seals opposite 6 the signatures; there's red wafers in wax. And this is 7 to show that this document is actually blending 8 traditions; it's part of the British Land Law of Property 9 tradition, in terms of documents having to be signed, 10 sealed and delivered. But the signatures reveal the 11 totemic identity, the self representation of the leaders 12 of these communities. 13 Q: And in -- in terms of the document 14 collection that you provided us, I believe this is for 15 those who may be looking for, is Document 4000 -- 400- 16 1878. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, 58. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 20 Q: Fifty-eight (58). 21 A: Okay, sorry. 22 Q: Certainly. 23 A: Yeah. Now, the -- this has been 24 divided up into panels to make it fit on the screen, but 25 it is presented as it appears on the manuscript original

1 in the sense of the location of the various signatures. 2 And so we see a couple of levels of 3 organization going on here. We have, first of all, a 4 tribal identity. It's not visible there but that speaks 5 to Potawatomis. These signatures in the first panel, 6 the -- 7 Q: The first panel on the left-hand side 8 of the monitor? 9 A: On the left-hand side, the top of the 10 first panel. 11 Q: The top is -- is there Potawatomis -- 12 13 A: It's washed out but there's a 14 reference to Potawatomis and then the signatures that 15 follow are Potawatomi totemic marks and the names of the 16 chiefs. 17 And then below the Potawatomi signatures 18 we have the Hurons. 19 Q: And you can see the Hurons, it's 20 faint but it's in the middle of the slide in the first 21 column? 22 A: That's right. Now for the 23 Potawatomis we have a thunder bird. We have a dodaim 24 which people call a forked stick and I haven't -- I'm not 25 aware of anyone that's given it a satisfactory

1 explanation of -- of that -- of that symbol. 2 Q: And that's the second symbol down? 3 A: Yes. And the -- then there's a -- 4 you'll see some of the problems with identifying the 5 marks. There are four (4) appendages there. This could 6 be indicative of a four-legged mammal or also of a fish 7 with a particular fin placement. 8 And I'm -- I'm much better with the 9 Chippewa and Ottawa marks. I won't -- I won't give a 10 definitive opinion of -- of these marks coming down 11 although I think this is a catfish; the last image. 12 Q: This is, one (1), two (2), three (3), 13 four (4), five (5), the sixth one down? 14 A: Yes. The person -- the chief's name 15 shows up as Key-way-te-nan. And then we get into the 16 Huron marks and this is one of the last documents which 17 shows the marks of the Huron chiefs. 18 And one of the things that it demonstrates 19 in my understanding of authority and its relationship to 20 totemic identity is that the placement of the signatures 21 are very important. 22 Actually the placement of the marks. They 23 speak to authority and who's considered, sort of, the 24 first family or the first tribe in a community. So we 25 have the first Huron signatures for Sas-ta-rit-sie which

1 is a inherited chiefly name among the Huron people and we 2 have the image of a deer with antlers. 3 And then Sas-ta-rit-sie has two (2) other 4 deer chiefs who sign with him but you'll notice their 5 marks are under his and instead of having the full deer 6 head they just have their antlers. 7 And then there is a chief who signs as a 8 wolf? 9 Q: That's the fourth one down? 10 A: Yes. And, again, there are wolf 11 chiefs that sign below him but just their heads show up 12 and not their full body. So, again, it's -- it speaks to 13 authority and rank among the normal signatories. 14 And there are some turtles below the wolf 15 and this is a bear's foot and a bear's head, I think. 16 Followed by a turtle and the last one, I think, is a 17 porcupine. 18 Q: And the bear's -- the bear marks are 19 the fourth -- fourth up -- fourth and fifth up from the 20 bottom? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Thank you. 23 A: And then I think followed by a bear's 24 head. And they say, in -- in some nations, the various 25 body parts, in fact, become dodaims as opposed to the

1 whole -- the whole -- some people -- some people would 2 say they belong to the Bear Paw family as opposed to 3 saying that they're bear people. 4 So those are the Hurons and the 5 Potawatomis. The next column over is the people that the 6 British designate as Chippewas. And recall that the 7 French did not call anybody Chippewas. We have to think 8 back to the terms they used such as Sauteurs and, again, 9 I think the placement of the signatures, especially the 10 top signature is important. 11 Wasson signs first for the Chippewas and 12 Wasson makes these track marks. They're crane tracks. 13 He's a Crane chief. Remember in 1764 he signed with a 14 full crane and here he's signing with a much more 15 abbreviated mark which is still diagnostic though. A 16 crane track is different from other kinds of -- of bird 17 marks and that's readily identifiable by people who know. 18 19 Q: And so both those marks are crane 20 tracks? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Thank you. 23 A: He's not standing on one leg. He's 24 standing on both feet. Sometimes you see one (1) leg -- 25 one (1) track not two (2). And then below Wasson is Ti-

1 e-cami-go-se and I'm quite confident this is a catfish. 2 The catfish has the barbs coming out of 3 the front of their head so they're -- they're the most 4 easily, from my point of view, the most easily -- most 5 easily identifiable of the fish clans. 6 Below Ti-e-cami-go-see is Essebance and 7 that means small racoon, but he's not a racoon of course. 8 This is a mark for a caribou. Now, you'll remember when 9 Attawakie signed, there he is there, when Attawakie 10 signed the Treaty of Detroit in 1764 he drew a full 11 caribou, but in a number of the records that I've 12 examined caribou again instead of drawn -- the caribou 13 people don't always draw the full animal. They'll draw a 14 distinctive mark. 15 And the caribous, actually, got very 16 distinctive hoof mark. They're the largest -- they have 17 the largest hooves of -- of the species in the ungulate 18 family, such as the deer, the moose, and the elk; the 19 caribou. 20 Caribou have the largest feet and they 21 also have the most pronounced dew claws which extend 22 outward from their ankle and when they walk in mud or 23 snow the dew claws leave an impression. 24 And so what we see here is actually the 25 hoof marks coming up and then the do dew claws and then

1 the leg. So what he's drawn is a -- a caribou haunch as 2 it were down to the do dew claws. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: So that's very, very diagnostic for a 5 -- a caribou mark. 6 In the old days, before I started doing 7 this work, people said that that was an antler; the 8 antler mark. But that's an antler. Sometimes the people 9 aren't given enough credit for being artists. They say - 10 - I kept saying well if they wanted to draw an antler, 11 they would have drawn an antler. That's not an antler. 12 It took me a while to figure out that it 13 was a leg. We actually -- in my territory there's a 14 document signed by one of our chiefs Wabadick who's a 15 White Reindeer, and when he signed it, his mark the 16 merchant, at Goderich Road; this is his mark, signifying 17 a deer's leg. And that's when the light came on and 18 realized that actually that's -- this is the claw, this 19 is the hoof, these are the do dew claws and that's the 20 leg of the caribou. 21 Q: Thank you. 22 A: Okay. Then we have Ouit-a-nis-sa and 23 again, a crane mark. Not -- not the double tracks but 24 it's -- he's -- he's a Crane chief as well and then Nan- 25 gie who's a Beaver. And the beaver are typically drawn

1 this way, that the most diagnostic indicator for a beaver 2 is the broad tail. 3 Q: And the beaver is the fifth down in 4 the middle panel? 5 A: Yes. And then Cha-bou-quai signs -- 6 this is a -- what I consider to be a -- a prototypical or 7 a very typical eagle. The eagle is a bird of prey and 8 the talons are very pronounced, and also the beak. 9 And I would contrast the eagle here with 10 this bird which has its wings spread, and that I would 11 suggest, is typical for a thunderbird. 12 Q: And they -- the latter symbol is the 13 top symbol in the first panel? 14 A: First Potawatomi chief, yes. 15 Q: Thank you. 16 A: Okay. And then Mesh-qui-ga-boui, the 17 last signatory -- sorry, there's another eagle, Wa-ban- 18 di-gais who signs below the first eagle and again you get 19 the diagnostic talons and the hooked beak. 20 And then with Mesh-qui-ga-boui another -- 21 another catfish. 22 So, the people that the British are 23 calling Chippewas, in fact, are Cranes, Catfish, Caribou, 24 Beaver and Eagle. And we have evidence from the French 25 regime that there were Cranes in this territory, that

1 there were Beavers in this territory and by the -- 2 according to Yellowheads Wampum that there were Caribou 3 in this territory. 4 And this -- a number of the people who 5 signed the Detroit treaty, in particular Wasson and 6 Attawakie are signing this first purchase in 1790 which I 7 would suggest shows very considerable continuity in the 8 region by these groups. 9 Q: Right. 10 A: The last panel on the right is the 11 Ottawa panel. Again these are people that the British 12 called Ottawas and they would speak of them as being in 13 the Ottawa village and the first among the Ottawas is 14 Agushuwee and he's the chief who answered the King's 15 request, saying what child could refuse the request of a 16 father so generous. 17 Q: That was the speech that you just 18 read us a few minutes ago? 19 A: Yes. So, Agushuwee was at the 20 meeting, he made the speech and then there was this 21 document, was signed by the people with an interest in 22 the land in question. 23 And it's a bit blurred here, but we know 24 from other documents, Agushuwee is a Bear. The bear's 25 usually shown as standing. You can sometimes tell by the

1 shape of the rump but also they typically have their feet 2 pointing forward when they're standing, is -- can help to 3 distinguish a bear from other four (4) leggeds. 4 Wa-wish-kui is another bird. Again the 5 talons suggest a -- a bird of prey. Ni-a-ne-go is this 6 symbol which people will call a forked stick and again, 7 I'm -- I'm not sure what to relate that -- that image to. 8 Below him Ki-wich-e-ouan is another bird 9 of prey, again, very, very, pronounced talons and the 10 pronounced beak. 11 Then we get to Attawakie, and you remember 12 Attawakie drew the full caribou on the 1764 Treaty at 13 Detroit. And here he's just drawn his mark, these are 14 the hoofs coming forward, and -- and the leg; it's a bit 15 obscured by an ink stain. 16 Then we have O-na-gan, which is another 17 Bear, and this is much more -- this one's easier to see 18 than Agushuwee's bear; you see the feet coming forward, 19 those are the front leg, then the back leg. And then En- 20 dah-in. 21 Q: It's the second from the bottom? 22 A: Yes, and this is sometimes a problem 23 in -- in identifying these marks, I mean, we have a sort 24 of a round body, and a number of appendages, but it's 25 hard to tell whether it might be animal or a fish.

1 So, in -- in the work that I do, I try to 2 collect as many signatures of the same -- persons of the 3 same name, because sometimes they'll do a better or worse 4 job of drawing, and then can be more confident about 5 their identification. 6 And then Maug-gic-a-way: I would be 7 fairly confident that this is a Beaver; it's a large oval 8 body, four (4) appendages, a head and a pronounced wide 9 tail. 10 So, again among the Ottawas we have 11 Caribou, Eagles, Beavers, much as we have the Chippewas. 12 And so, I'm going to suggest that this designation of 13 Ottawa or Chippewa, is not the primary identity. It's 14 not what's used by the Chiefs in order to identify 15 themselves. 16 They would identify -- Wasson would 17 identify as a -- as a Crane Chief of the Chippewa Nation. 18 So, I think the totemic identity is corresponding to 19 tribal and then designation of Chippewa or Ottawa as 20 corresponding to some added level of -- of political 21 identity, or confederacy. 22 And then the formations together, we saw 23 Agushuwee refer to them as the Lake's Confederacy. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: So, on this next slide I've just

1 pulled out from the Treaty document, the signature of 2 Wasson, Essbance, Nan-gie to show that. And this first 3 purchase of lands by the British between Lakes Erie and 4 Huron, we have Crane Chiefs, Caribou Chiefs and Beaver 5 Chiefs. And the fact that their signatures appear or 6 that their marks appear on this purchase is -- is 7 evidence of their claims to an interest in the land, the 8 territory, that the British have a very strong tradition 9 of not being able to sell what you don't own; Nemo dat 10 qua non habet. And they wanted to make sure that they 11 had all the signatories accounted for; all the Nations 12 covered in this area that they were purchasing. 13 So, again, this is Treaty Number 2. It -- 14 it involves four (4) Nations, it involves several -- 15 several tribes that are organized and within those 16 Nations, several totemic groups. And I've highlighted 17 the Crane and the Caribou and the Beaver, because when we 18 get closer to this territory we're interested in around 19 the Aux Sable River, we'll be able to make some 20 connections between these Nations, these particular 21 totemic groups, and the ancestors of the present day 22 communities, that we're concerned with. 23 So, Treaty Number 2 again was a fairly 24 substantial area of land. It was done in the context of 25 kinship obligations, there was an understanding that the

1 people who moved into the territory would be the brothers 2 of the Great Father's Indian children. They were given a 3 purchase price for the lands that were purchased; it was 4 twelve hundred (1200) pounds. 5 Q: Twelve hundred (1200) pounds? 6 A: Twelve hundred (1200) pounds. And at 7 the time, according to Ms. Holmes, who knows more about 8 the currency exchange rates, the -- the pound was worth 9 about four dollars ($4). So, forty-eight hundred dollars 10 ($4800). 11 Now, they didn't receive the money as 12 money, they received it as wares and merchandise, 13 according to the terms of the Treaty. And in fact if you 14 look to the Treaty document I've provided, this is the 15 British for you, they don't include the speeches, but 16 they include the list -- we -- we have so many documents 17 in Record Group 10 that are receipts of -- it's hard to 18 find out people's names, they didn't record them, but 19 they give us the price of every pipe and blanket and 20 barrel of rum that's included. 21 So, we have of the twelve hundred (1200) 22 pounds, seven hundred and twenty-two (722) pounds, eight 23 shillings (8) and something worth of cloth and then 24 there's -- the -- the total goods. 25 The things that are given as wares or

1 presents include blankets, different colours of cloth, 2 ribbon, vermillion, silk, hats, tin kettles, knives, 3 guns, rifles, powders, ball, shot, flints, looking 4 glasses, fliers, scissors, penknives, fish hooks, steel, 5 fire steels, pipes and thirty-nine (39) gallons of rum, a 6 bull, four hundred (400) pounds of tobacco and a series 7 of other pipes and knives. 8 And so, that's how the -- the British paid 9 for this land that they purchased from their Indian 10 allies at Detroit in 1790. And again -- 11 Q: That -- pardon? 12 A: -- we see that behind me now the map 13 of -- of the purchase. And one thing I'd like to point 14 out is in the land that they were selling there was an 15 established Huron village and a number of the people were 16 still living on this side of the peninsular but they were 17 giving up their claims to this -- to the eastern side of 18 the north shore of Lake Huron -- of Lake Erie, but there 19 was a Huron settlement that had been there since the 20 early French period -- or later French period and so 21 Agushuwee and the other chiefs say that they won't forget 22 about their Huron brothers and that they will reserve 23 this parcel of land. 24 So, this becomes known as the Huron 25 Reserve.

1 Q: And that -- this is shown as a dotted 2 line to the east of the Detroit River. It's a 3 rectangular area on the east side just north of the 4 Straits of Erie? 5 A: That's right. So, the land south of 6 Chenail Ecarte, the River Thames, is surrounded with the 7 exception actually of two (2) very small reserves where 8 there were Huron settlements. 9 Q: And there's another square that's not 10 dotted just above the dotted square that's also a Huron 11 Reserve? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: And even though you said that this 14 was a surrender, it was, in fact, a purchase? 15 A: Yes, I'm sorry. I lapse into using 16 the term surrender because that's what gets used in my 17 territory but they stopped calling them purchases. But - 18 - but in the southern region in this early period they're 19 styled as purchases. 20 Q: Okay. And then the British came back 21 in 1796? 22 A: Yes. They keep coming back. This is 23 one of the few purchases where the map was reproduced and 24 because the map had been signed by the signatories, the 25 totemic identifies actually show up in the book.

1 But apart from the maps with -- that have 2 been signed with marks, there's no evidence of totemic 3 identity in the published versions of the Indian Treaties 4 of Canada. 5 Now -- 6 Q: This -- this particular map shows the 7 area just north of Lake St. Clair on the east side of the 8 St. Clair river -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- below -- where's Chenail Ecarte on 11 this? 12 A: Chenail Ecarte is here. It's drawn a 13 little bit differently than the first time but this is 14 the line of the 1790 purchase. So they're looking for a 15 block of land above the northern limit of the 1790 16 purchase. 17 Q: And they describe it there "east line 18 of purchase 1790"? 19 A: Yes. Now, again, Alexander McKee, 20 this is his signature down here, he's the deputy 21 superintendent of -- of Indian affairs. He's been 22 directed by Colonial officials to seek an additional 23 purchase. This is six (6) years after the first 24 purchase. 25 And so, he comes back and it's clear from

1 the record he calls people together at least three (3) 2 different times to try to get this purchase arranged and 3 he's finally successful in September of 1796. 4 Q: And you refer to his -- one of his 5 speeches on page 17 of your report? 6 A: Yes. And it -- one document I'd like 7 to refer to before we get there though -- 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: -- is document -- my document number 10 is (4000045) -- (4000445), sorry. I'm not very good with 11 numbers. 12 McKee had been asked in 1795 to try to 13 secure the purchase, and as I said, he made a number of 14 trips to the Chenail Ecarte to speak to the Chiefs, and 15 ask them about this agreement. 16 And so he reports to his -- the officials 17 that -- in October 24th, this document's dated October 18 24th, 1795. Got it? Okay. 19 Q: And you're referring -- it's an 20 extract of a letter of Alexander McKee, to Joseph Chew, 21 Secretary to the Indian Department, and it's dated at 22 Detroit, October 24th, 1795? 23 A: Yes, he's at -- at Detroit. Now, 24 McKee says: 25 "I am just returned from the River

1 Thames, [so they're calling it Thames 2 River now instead of Riviere a la 3 Tranche, and the Chenail Ecarte, where 4 I have had council with the Chiefs of 5 the Chippewas, and entered into a 6 provisional agreement with them, for 7 the purchase of twelve (12) miles 8 square at Chenail Ecarte, pursuant to 9 His Excellency Lord Dorchester's 10 directions, intended by His Lordship's 11 Benevolence for the future residence of 12 such of the western nations of Indians 13 as have been driven from their country 14 by the Army of the United States. 15 Their numbers cannot be ascertained 16 at present, with any degree of 17 exactness, but I have reason to believe 18 that the greatest part of those who 19 have been so long at Swan Creek, and 20 also the Ottawas of the River Raisin 21 both areas to the south west of Lake 22 Erie] will go to these lands, and they 23 amount to between two (2) and three 24 thousand (3,000)." 25 So they're expecting an influx of

1 thousands of Indian allies: 2 "The Chippewas are the only proprietors 3 of these lands." 4 So here we have McKee saying, we need more 5 land, the Chippewas are the only people that we have to 6 talk to. They don't have to talk to the Mississagues or 7 the Hurons, or even the -- the Ottawas at this point. He 8 says: 9 "The Chippewas are the only proprietors 10 of these lands, and I am happy to state 11 that they most readily consented to a 12 sale thereof, and cheerfully embraced 13 my proposal. Some of the Chiefs of the 14 Ottawas accompanied me to view the spot 15 which their father's goodness have 16 suggested as a convenient situation for 17 them to sit down upon and are extremely 18 happy in having seen a country every 19 way proper and calculated, as well for 20 hunting as corn fields and villages. 21 And they express an earnest desire to 22 be permitted to plan hereon as soon as 23 the season will allow them in the 24 spring." 25 So, he's taken the people they're

1 intending on living, or at least their leaders. They 2 like the location, the twelve (12) miles square, it's 3 good for farming and for hunting, because they practised 4 quite a mixed economy. 5 So, this is in October 1795, and then 6 McKee goes back in August of 1796 to finalize the 7 agreement. And this is a pattern that we see over and 8 over again in this region. It's not so common further 9 north, which is that the Indian officials arrange a 10 provisional agreement, or a preliminary agreement. It's 11 usually called a provisional agreement, but they get 12 approval for that from the Indian Department and then 13 they go back and get the final agreement. 14 So, the Provisional Agreement's 1795 and 15 then the final agreement, which is published in the 16 Indian Treaties and other records, is in 1796. 17 And again, we have the Department of 18 Indian affairs maintained records of the speeches that 19 were made at the -- at the meeting. And I've excerpted a 20 part of McKee's speech. 21 Q: It's at page 17, at the bottom of page 22 17 of your report? 23 A: The document itself is in my 24 materials, and with permission, I'll read more than the 25 actual portion that I've excerpted.

1 Q: And what is the number, Professor 2 Johnson, in your materials? 3 A: The -- it's the manuscript version at 4 number 400446. 5 Q: Thank you. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: At a council at Chenail Ecarte, this 10 3rd -- the 30th of August, 1796. Do you have it? 11 Q: That's fine, you can go ahead. 12 A: Okay. Okay. All right, so you have 13 Colonel McKee, again, he's -- he's a very seasoned 14 officer with the Indian Department, he's fought with most 15 of these people in the American War of Independence, he's 16 already arranged the -- the first purchase, and remember, 17 the first purchase was to accommodate loyalists, both 18 Native and non-Native. 19 And then he comes back and -- and makes a 20 speech on August 30th, 1796: 21 "Children, it is with the greatest 22 satisfaction that I now see so many of 23 the Chippewas at this place. This is 24 the third time I have been here in 25 hopes of meeting those now present, but

1 I imagine their business called them 2 elsewhere. 3 Children, the -- the change that has 4 taken place in this country and which 5 has been long in agitation induced your 6 Great Father to direct that you should 7 be informed thereof and of his views 8 for the comfort and protection of his 9 Indian children whom he will never 10 abandon, so long as they behave like 11 good and obedient children. 12 Children, the change I allude to is the 13 delivery of the posts to the United 14 States. These people have at last 15 fulfilled the treaty of 1783 and the 16 justice of the King towards all the 17 world would not suffer him to withhold 18 the rights of another, after a 19 compliance with the terms stipulated in 20 that treaty. 21 But he has, notwithstanding, taken the 22 greatest care of the rights and 23 independence of all the Indian nations 24 who by the last Treaty with America, 25 are to be perfectly free and unmolested

1 in their trade and hunting grounds and 2 to pass and re-pass freely and 3 undisturbed to trade with whom they 4 please." 5 Now, this is a reference to the Jay 6 Treaty, between the United States and -- and England that 7 allowed for controls on the border, but they were not 8 supposed to apply to the Indians who were free -- 9 considered free and independent of these restrictions. 10 "A great many Indians who have always 11 lived in harmony and happiness with the 12 King and his representatives and who 13 yet wish to remain within his territory 14 and under his protection are now 15 present. 16 The King, who on all occasions is 17 desirous of marking his regard and 18 friendship for all his Indian children, 19 but in a particular manner for those in 20 trouble or distress has given 21 directions to place all such as are 22 desirous of living within his 23 territory, on part of the lands 24 purchased in 1790, at which purchase 25 you were all present and received the

1 payment." 2 So, he's referring to this anticipated 3 influx of Indians from the American territories and he 4 says, well, we've already bought some land, I know, from 5 you for that purpose but he goes on to say: 6 "We are now sitting upon part of the 7 lands purchased at that time and it has 8 been thought the most convenient place 9 for all such Indians as are desirous of 10 planting and living within the King's 11 dominions. 12 But, children, a little wood and a 13 little more room is necessary for their 14 general comfort and I have been 15 directed by the Commander in Chief to 16 purchase from you a small piece on the 17 north side of this river for that 18 purpose. 19 Four (4) square leagues," 20 Which is twelve (12) square miles, 21 "Is all that is required and for which 22 you will receive the payment in such 23 articles as are best suited to your 24 wants and necessities. 25 Children, when I received directions

1 last fall from the Commander in Chief 2 to make a provisional agreement for the 3 purchase of this small spot, I 4 collected all the chiefs of the 5 Chippewas that were then near and 6 entered into a conditional agreement 7 with them on behalf of their nation. 8 Some of these chiefs are now present 9 and are capable of informing you what 10 passed on that occasion." 11 And this is the part that I've excerpted 12 in my report coming: 13 "Children, you are not to consider this 14 small ..." 15 No, sorry, I've got two (2) paragraphs to 16 go before the part I excerpted, 17 "Children, you are not to consider this 18 small strip of land as bought for the 19 King's immediate use but for the use of 20 his Indian children and you, 21 yourselves, will be as welcome as any, 22 as others to come and live thereon. 23 Children, the situation of this place 24 is particularly favourable for a 25 general council fire for all nations.

1 The communication between the six (6) 2 nations, the nations of Canada and all 3 the nations and tribes to the northward 4 and the Mississippi is extremely easy 5 and there will be little difficulty of 6 their assembling here at all times when 7 the business or interests of the 8 Indians may require it." 9 So, again, we're seeing the recognition of 10 this strategic location of the St. Clair where people can 11 access it from any -- any direction through the Great 12 Lakes and the Mississippi. 13 "I cannot too often," 14 This is the part I've excerpted: 15 "Children, I cannot too often imprint 16 on your minds the King's paternal 17 regard for all of you and this small 18 piece of land which he is now prepared 19 to purchase is not for settling of his 20 own people, but for the comfort and 21 satisfaction of yourselves and all his 22 Indian children. 23 His own people, who have fought and 24 bled with you, he has placed on the 25 Riviere a la Tranche and on the Lake

1 below." 2 Then he goes on to talk about the -- the 3 presents that he's brought along to -- to conclude the 4 purchase. 5 And so, the purport of the speech, again, 6 reiterates the kinship relationship between the King and 7 his Indian children, and their obligation as family to 8 respond to each other's requests and each other's needs. 9 And although it's styled as a purchase, 10 this treaty's important -- the speech is important 11 because it makes it clear that the land is not going to 12 be sold out from under them, that they're allowed to 13 continue -- the Chippewas are allowed to continue to use 14 it as are the Ottawas and other people who are coming 15 from the American Territory. 16 And so it's styled as a purchase and 17 actually if you read the written text of the Treaty it 18 says that the signatories are giving up all right and 19 title in their land but that's not what they were told in 20 the speech. They understood that this land was being 21 made as a special reserve. They were welcoming other 22 Indians to settle there but they weren't giving up their 23 own rights in that particular parcel. 24 Q: So, that it could be used by the 25 Chippewa as well as the other -- the American -- the

1 British allies that were coming from the United States -- 2 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- the Indian allies? 5 A: Yes. The -- the written version -- 6 or, sorry, the typeset version of the treaty appears in 7 my documents at (4000448) and, again, the speeches do not 8 appear. But the list of presents and how much they cost 9 does appear. The land that was surrendered in this 10 square parcel they received in return eight hundred 11 pounds (800) of value in goods and merchandise. 12 Q: So, that the 1796 purchase and then 13 the speech that you read, when he referred to lands that 14 he had purchased previously for non-aboriginal people, 15 were the lands south of the -- of the Chenail Ecarte 16 River and that was covered by the 1790 purchase? 17 A: That's correct. 18 Q: And that this 1796 purchase was for 19 the aboriginal allies of the British who would be moving 20 from the United States? 21 A: That's right. But that the Chippewas 22 also retained an interest in that land. 23 Q: To use the land? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Yes.

1 A: And as I said, then they received 2 eight hundred pounds (800) which would be about twenty- 3 four hundred dollars ($2400). 4 Q: In our modern terminology it's, sort 5 of, use in common; everyone could use the land in common? 6 7 A: Yes, for hunting or planting. Yes. 8 Now, the -- as I say, the typeset version of the treaty 9 does not contain the totemic signatures; there's just, in 10 brackets, it says dodaim. But because the map was 11 printed to go along with it we see evidence of totemic 12 identity. 13 So, there are some witnesses to the 14 transaction, the purchase, and they're actually the 15 beneficiaries of the purchase and that is the chiefs of 16 the Ottawas, Shemmendock and Negig and Mitchewas and the 17 Ottawa chiefs then are a Crane chief, a Catfish chief 18 and, again, I'm at a loss for that one. It has four (4) 19 appendages, I can't see whether they're fins or legs and 20 whether that's a coddle fin or some other type of tail. 21 Q: And you're referring to the mark 22 that's between the crane on the top and -- 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: -- the catfish on the bottom. 25 A: This is Negig's mark but I don't know

1 enough about the Ottawa chiefs to give a confident 2 opinion on what his totemic identity is. 3 But there we have the Chippewa chiefs that 4 are actually the ones who are agreeing to the purchase. 5 And, again, we have a Catfish, a Beaver, an Eagle, an 6 Otter, a Bear, a Beaver; this is another one I'm not 7 confident. Wasson signs again. Remember Wasson from 8 1764. He's still here signing as a Crane chief and 9 Wittaness signs as well. And Peychiky signs as an Eagle 10 and Annamakance signs as a Caribou and Macounce signs as 11 a Bear and Nungee makes this cross or an X signature. 12 Q: Thank you. 13 A: So, for the people who have a 14 proprietary interest and are agreeing to set aside their 15 lands for the benefit of other Indians but not giving up 16 their own rights to those same lands, we have a great -- 17 a great variety of totemic identities. 18 But for the purposes of the communities 19 that we're going to be focussing on shortly, the -- the 20 relevant totemic groups are Beaver and Caribou primarily. 21 22 Q: And the British described all of the 23 chiefs who were on the right hand side as Chippewa? 24 A: Yes, they're all described as 25 Chippewas.

1 Q: Thank you. 2 A: So, this -- this slide is just to 3 assist in seeing the -- the two (2) areas covered in the 4 purchase; they're put side by side. So, you see the land 5 at the top right, purchased in 1790, and then the lands 6 at the bottom left, purchased in 1796. 7 Q: Then in 1804, I note on page 18 of 8 your report, there's a letter written to Colonel Claus 9 who we heard about before? 10 A: Yes, he's -- he's -- by this time 11 Alexander McKee has died, and Claus is now the Deputy 12 Super -- Superintendent General of Indian Affairs. He 13 lives over near the Six (6) Nations Territory, but he's 14 responsible as well for the land and peoples in this 15 region. 16 I'm trying to find my copy of the letter. 17 Now, Wittaness is a Chief of the Chippewas, as you can 18 see by his signature here. He had signed the 1796 19 purchase. He was aware of the promises that were made by 20 Alexander McKee not to -- that they weren't in fact 21 giving up their rights to the land, they would be able to 22 continue to use it, together with their brothers from the 23 Ottawa. 24 And by 1804 though, as I say, Alexander 25 McKee is gone, there's a change in the land, in terms of

1 the number of people that are there, and the number of 2 settlers that are coming in, and Wittaness is living at 3 the River St. Clair, which would be north of the 4 surrendered area, and up here on the west bank of the St. 5 Clair River. 6 And in this letter, he -- 7 Q: On the west or east bank -- 8 A: Sorry, east bank. 9 Q: -- east bank of the St. Clair? 10 A: Yes, of the St. Clair River. And I 11 think that Wasson is also gone by now, because he -- 12 Wittaness always signs as a junior Chief in relation to 13 Wasson, but this -- this petition or this letter is 14 drafted by Wittaness, and he's writing to Claus to 15 complain about the way that the -- the officials are 16 interpreting the 1796 purchase. 17 It's only eight (8) years since the 18 purchase, and yet the people are being made -- the 19 Chippewas are being made to feel almost like strangers in 20 their own -- in their own country. 21 And so, his letter reads, and I've 22 provided an excerpt in my report. 23 Q: Can you tell me what the number of 24 that document is again, Professor Johnston? 25 A: Yes, it's (4000452), if you want to

1 see the manuscript original. But I've got it transcribed 2 in the text of my report -- 3 Q: Thank you. 4 A: -- at page 18. 5 Q: Now, when you look at -- perhaps you 6 might, if we could just stop for a second before you read 7 it. The manuscript original that's in the collection of 8 documents, and this again is from, I believe RG-10? 9 A: This one (1) is actually from the 10 Claus papers, which is MG-11-F-19. 11 Q: But it's in the archives? 12 A: It's in the archives, that's right. 13 Q: And but the letter itself was -- was 14 not written by Chief Wittaness, the actual manuscript 15 property we see, or was it? 16 A: No. There's no evidence that he could 17 speak English or write. The only thing I'm confident 18 that he marked on this document is his totemic signature. 19 Q: And so, that the usual -- is it fair 20 to say the usual practice of the -- the practice would 21 have been for the Chief in this case, Wittaness, to speak 22 to someone who spoke his language? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Who would then write it down in 25 English?

1 A: Yes. In the early days, the British 2 Indian Department, almost all the -- all the officers 3 that were resident officers, that is they lived in 4 communities or territories, they were fluent in the 5 language of the aboriginal people. 6 So Claus could speak both Mohawk and -- 7 not just Mohawk, the Iroquoian language as well as the 8 Algonquian. McKee was fluent in Anishnaabemwin. He had 9 an Indian name. He was the White Elk to show that he'd 10 been embraced by the -- by the community. 11 Not at this period in the 1800's but by 12 the 1830's there were a number of missionaries, Methodist 13 missionaries who also were established within villages 14 and they could often speak and -- speak and write 15 English, but understand Ojibwe. 16 But at this early date, the Indian 17 officials -- to be a resident Indian officer, you had to 18 have fluency in the language of the people. 19 Q: So, that the speech -- the letter 20 would have been written by a British officer at the 21 request of the chief -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- who -- 24 A: Or possibly a merchant. Some of the 25 merchants at this time as well were fluent. So ,the --

1 the chief would find somebody who could understand what 2 he was telling him and who he trusted to write down what 3 he was telling him. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: So Wetawninse then makes this speech 6 which is recorded: 7 "Brother, as you always told me to let 8 you know when any person or persons 9 molested us in regard to our lands, and 10 in compliance with your friendly 11 request, I now take the liberty to 12 inform you of the same. I went 13 yesterday with Captain Harrow to 14 Chenail Ecarte to see those people that 15 are now settling there and to observe 16 whether they were encroaching on our 17 grant which, if you remember, that you 18 told me that it was allotted for us and 19 our children, and to remain so. 20 I found they had not encroached as yet 21 but Captain A. Harrow told me that we 22 had not an inch of land in these parts 23 and that which belongs to us lies a 24 great ways to the westward of this. 25 Such language as that held forth is not

1 very agreeable to us and my hope, 2 brother, will take it into 3 consideration and if possible, put a 4 stop to such proceedings and will much 5 oblige your friend and brother, 6 Wetawninse, a chief of the Chippewas." 7 And we see on the screen his mark. Now 8 there's a postscript to the document which says: 9 "Brother, I have now acquainted you of 10 it. I heard a bad bird speaking ..." 11 Metaphor for bad bird is a trouble maker 12 or a gossip or someone who's trying to create dissension. 13 "I heard a bad bird speaking and makes 14 me feel very ugly and my heart is very 15 sore." 16 And so, he -- he's communicating here, 17 first of all his vigilance to protect his territory and 18 his rights on behalf of his people and then the affront 19 that he suffers by being told that the lands that they 20 have reserved for them in fact aren't their lands and 21 seeking some redress from a person he trusts in the -- in 22 the Indian Department. As I said this -- this document 23 is found in the Claus papers and I've found no evidence 24 of a response having been sent to Wetawninse. 25 But it demonstrates to me how quickly

1 things change on the ground. I mean, in 1796 the British 2 are saying, oh yes, your Great Father is anxious and will 3 take care of all your needs. This will be for you and 4 your posterity forever and eight (8) years later they're 5 being told that they -- they don't have any -- any 6 business being in -- in that place. 7 And that sense then that, for a chief to 8 say he feels ugly is -- expresses a great amount of -- of 9 humiliation that I think he probably wouldn't have 10 expected from a British officer. 11 Q: And, then, we're going to move on but 12 the -- your report does not talk about what the British 13 did between 1804 and 1812 but with the military threat in 14 1812, as I understand it, the British then looked -- 15 looked again to their Indian allies to assist them with 16 respect to the war with the United States. 17 A: Yes. The -- the interest, I suppose, 18 that the British had waxed and waned with the -- the -- 19 the degree of security they felt in the territory and 20 they were most attentive to their Indian allies when they 21 felt vulnerable to American aggression and the Indian 22 nations around the Great Lakes came forward in great 23 numbers to assist the British against the Americans. 24 They were led by the Shawnee chief, 25 Tecumseh and his descendants -- some of his descendants -

1 - his -- some of his sisters married people in the 2 Territory and -- and their descendants continued to live. 3 In fact, at Walpole Island at reserves 4 along Lake Huron, even up into my territory at -- on 5 Georgian Bay. So, the -- I haven't provided any 6 documentation. I'm hoping people are well aware of the 7 role that the Indian nations played in the War of 1812 8 and the defence of Canada and the fact that they're still 9 a country separate from the United States is, at least, 10 in part attributable to the loyalty and commitment of His 11 Majesty's Indian allies during this conflict. 12 So, there's no much treaty activity in 13 this period. But when the war ends, again, there is -- 14 the attention shifts to matters of settlement and 15 colonial economic concerns. And so the pressure for 16 treaties increases after the -- after the war of 1812. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Would this be an 18 appropriate time for the morning break? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 20 would be an excellent time. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. Thank you, 22 Commissioner. 23 THE REGISTRAR: All rise please. This 24 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 25

1 --- Upon recessing at 11:20 a.m. 2 --- Upon resuming at 11:40 a.m. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 5 resumed. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: Professor Johnston, I'll just wait a 9 minute until you get the computer up and running. But 10 before we go on, I wanted to ask you if I could take you 11 to page 17 of your report. And the middle of the page 12 you have the reference to the letter written by Alexander 13 McKee -- McKee in 1795 and I believe there's a 14 typographical error in the second line of the quote? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: You'll see it says: 17 "I just returned from the River Thames 18 and the Chenail Ecarte where I have 19 held council with the chiefs of the 20 Chippewas and entered into a provincial 21 agreement." 22 That should read "Provisional Agreement"? 23 A: "Provisional agreement", yes. 24 Q: Thank you. 25 A: The Province does not exist at this

1 point. It was still the colony of Upper Canada. 2 Q: Thank you. 3 A: Sorry, that's a typo. 4 Q: I just wanted to correct that. Okay, 5 now, we're up to after the war of 1812 and you have a 6 chart, Lake Huron 1815 up on the screen? 7 A: Yes. This is the second nautical 8 survey that was done by the British after the war of 9 1812. The Great Lakes were very important to colonial 10 security and they wanted to examine places for ports and 11 harbours. 12 And Sir William Fitzwilliam Owen conducted 13 a preliminary survey in 1815 and then it was followed up 14 by a much more detailed survey a few years later by a 15 Captain Henry Bayfield. 16 This is a part of Owen's chart of Lake 17 Huron. And it's fairly similar to the document that we 18 saw -- the map that was done in 1788 by Gother Mann, 19 although he does much more detail around the peninsula he 20 calls Little Cabotia, the Saugeen Peninsular, now the 21 Bruce Peninsular. 22 But we're interested in the area coming 23 into Lake Huron along the St. Clair river. And I've 24 highlighted and enlarged a portion of this map because it 25 gives us place names that still have relevance today.

1 And the -- the names of the rivers that 2 Owen provides on this chart from 1815 are crucial in 3 identifying the location of the next purchase. 4 Q: Thank you. 5 A: So, he -- when he comes up the east 6 shore and travels along the southeast shore of Lake 7 Huron, the first feature that he marks, again, is this 8 prominent outcropping, very distinctively shaped, and he 9 calls it Cape Ippewash, I-P-P-E-W-A-S-H. 10 I've checked his field notes and other 11 reports to see if perhaps this was a typographical error 12 on the map, but he consistently calls it Ippewash, not 13 Ipperwash. So, I'm not sure where the R came from in the 14 modern termination, but this is the name given to this 15 feature by Captain Bayfield -- sorry, Captain Owen. 16 Now, to the north of this feature, there 17 is a river marked, and in my opinion it corresponds to 18 the river that Gother Mann called the River Aux Sable, 19 but this River has the Anishnaabemwin name on it. 20 There are a few places in fact where Owen 21 gives what are clearly translations of Indian names or 22 actual Indian names for the places, which suggests to me 23 that he had some assistance in his survey work, who were 24 either fluent in that language, or who were in fact 25 Anishnaabeg people themselves.

1 So, he calls this the River Naugissippi, 2 and that actually means sandy river in -- in Ojibwa, so 3 it suggests to me in fact that the first name for this 4 river was the Ojibwa Naugissippi, which the French called 5 River Aux Sable, which is the French for the sandy river, 6 and which Mann -- Gother Mann called River Aux Sable, but 7 the Ojibwa name for it is River Naugissippi, Sippi is the 8 root for river and Naugi is the reference to -- to sand. 9 So, this -- this area then is of crucial 10 importance, and the names that are used are also very 11 important for understanding the -- the next treaty 12 transaction. 13 Q: And this area again is the area Cape 14 Ippewash and the river -- the River Naugissippi? 15 A: Yes. If you go further up the coast, 16 a considerable distance, more than double -- about double 17 the distance that it takes you to get from the River St. 18 Clair to the River Naugissippi, we come to another river. 19 And I haven't highlighted that, but Owen calls it the Red 20 River. 21 And in the mouth of the Red River, there 22 was a very high clay bank that had been eroded on either 23 side by the action of the waves, and the -- Owen refers 24 to this in his field notes, although it doesn't show up 25 in his -- on his map, but he referred to that feature,

1 that tall cliff, as a -- a beacon. He called it the Red 2 River Beacon, B-E-A-C-O-N. 3 And later in the Treaty period you'll see 4 references to the Red River Basin, and I think that 5 again, the people misread the map. It's clearly -- the 6 Red River is now called the Maitland River, and I'm not 7 sure how much of the Beacon remains, but when we -- when 8 we turn to the next series of provisional agreements, we 9 see a reference to the Red River Basin, which I think is 10 a reference -- clearly the Red River should read Beacon, 11 though which is the -- the tall clay cliff -- 12 Q: Thank you. 13 A: -- that Owen observed. 14 So, this is the -- the current mapping 15 then, after the war of 1812, and the British come back to 16 the Chippewas asking for more land, beginning in 1818. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: That begins in your report at page 19? 21 A: So, by this time there's a number of 22 resident Indian agents in the -- in the region. One (1) 23 of them is named John Askin, who lives down around the 24 Detroit area, but on -- on the Canadian side of the 25 Detroit River.

1 And he is directed by the officials to 2 seek a purchase of lands on the north side of the River 3 Thames. Recall that the lands to the south now have all 4 been surrendered, as well as the twelve (12) block -- the 5 twelve (12) mile square block at Chenail Ecarte. 6 But now the British want all the land that 7 the Chippewas own on the north side of the -- of the 8 Thames River. So, I refer to this then as dispossession, 9 because the -- the land that they have left, the -- the 10 British are intent upon purchasing, and it's clear this 11 time that their intention is for the purpose of 12 agricultural settlement by non -- non-Native settlers 13 14 because the -- the -- the land that they have left, the 15 British are intent upon purchasing and it's clear this 16 time that their intention is for the purpose of 17 agricultural settlement by non -- non-native settlers. 18 I'll start with this map. It's a bit hard 19 to read. When Askin is asked to go and arrange the 20 purchase he calls together a number of chiefs from along 21 the coast and down along the river. The coast of Lake 22 Huron and the St. Clair River and they meet at the -- I 23 think they meet at the rapids. 24 And he -- he's set this map. So the 25 officials at the Indian Department have already decided

1 the land that they want. You'll see the Thames River 2 coming along here at the bottom of this sketch. The land 3 south of the Thames river has already been organized into 4 townships and settled; the land's been granted to 5 settlers. 6 Now, they want the land north of the 7 Thames River. And with the point that goes out from the 8 head of Burlington Bay on a certain course until it 9 strikes Lake Huron. They want all the land north of the 10 Thames River going along until you get to quite close to 11 the head of Lake Ontario and then on an angle up to -- to 12 Lake Huron. 13 So, it's a very large parcel of land. 14 Now, initially it's broken up into various quadrants and 15 Askin has to figure out who owns the area in question? 16 Who does he need to consult with? How does he persuade 17 them to surrender the land? 18 And so, this is the map that he is sent. 19 In the beginning, it's not clear but the suggestion is 20 that there were no reserves marked on the map. But, as a 21 result of the meetings that he has with the chiefs, they 22 indicate, in fact, the lands that they want to keep and 23 where they are located. 24 So, this map goes from York -- Toronto 25 now, to Askin, goes to the meeting, gets marked up with

1 relation to the reserves and then goes back to 2 headquarters. 3 When he first meets with the people he 4 calls Chippewas, again, they're meeting around what's 5 modern day Sarnia, he hasn't got any representatives of 6 the people who live right on the Thames River. 7 He has representatives from people living 8 along the St. Clair River and living along the south 9 coast of Lake Huron. So, what happens and the Government 10 hadn't intended this really, but he ends up having to 11 negotiate two (2) treaties. 12 One treaty for the people right on the 13 north bank of the Thames and they're known today as 14 Chippewas of the Thames. 15 Q: And is that the area that on this 16 manuscript map of 1819 has they -- it says yellow? 17 A: Yes, it is coloured in yellow on the 18 original and it says 'Long Woods'. So, the Government 19 thought initially they could get all the Chippewas to 20 agree to selling everything north of the Thames. But, by 21 this time, we see that while different people are saying, 22 well, no, this is -- this is for certain chiefs to deal 23 with. 24 And then -- 25 Q: This being the yellow?

1 A: The yellow, sorry. Yes. And then 2 the balance north -- this is Chenail Ecarte, remember, 3 the twelve (12) mile square. So, they're saying well, 4 the people that are right on the Thames still they're a 5 different group of people. They live in a different 6 area. They've got a different Indian agent and different 7 chiefs. 8 And so, that -- the long woods tract then 9 gets separated out from the balance of the lands -- of 10 the 11 un-surrendered lands in this particular -- unpurchased 12 lands in this particular region. 13 Q: And can you help me, is the name Long 14 Woods does it appear -- I can't see it on the map. 15 Maybe -- 16 A: Sorry. First you see yellow and then 17 there's an L capital L-O-N-G and W-O-O-D. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: The Long Wood, okay? 20 Q: Thank you. 21 A: So, initially the British were hoping 22 to get the whole tract surrendered. They had to 23 negotiate, in fact, two (2) separate treaties. And so 24 the people with the long woods tract made two (2) 25 reserves for themselves and the people north of Chenail

1 Ecarte and the long woods tract made four (4) reserves. 2 Q: And the reserves on this provisional 3 map -- agreement map are in -- marked in black? 4 A: They appear to be black but I think 5 in the original they're marked in red. I haven't seen 6 the manuscript original. It would be in Ottawa but other 7 references say that they're marked in red. 8 Q: And this copy came from -- 9 A: This is from the Claus papers. 10 Q: From the Klaus papers? 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: And that's in the archives as well 13 in... 14 A: Yes. So the four (4) reserves that 15 the people tell Askin they want to keep, this one is 16 right in the very north along the northern boundary of 17 the twelve (12) mile square tract and that's called the 18 Lower Reserve because it's lower on the St. Clair River. 19 Then there's the Upper Reserve which is 20 near modern day Sarnia. And then there's two (2) 21 reserves on the lake shore of Lake Huron which are of 22 interest to us. 23 We see the distinctive feature here which 24 I would say, although it's not marked according to Owen's 25 plan would be Cape Ippewash.

1 This is the first time this name appears 2 that I've seen in the historic record. It says Kettle 3 Point. So, the reserve is indicated being just a little 4 bit north of Cape Ippewash and it's called Kettle Point. 5 Then there's a reserve further up and this 6 river is called River Aux Sable and there's a reserve, a 7 rectangular reserve at the River Aux Sable. 8 Now there are no acreages given but you 9 should notice that this reserve here, at what becomes the 10 Sarnia reserve looks to be relatively similar sizes to 11 the reserve at Kettle Point and at the river marked Aux 12 Sable. 13 In the final agreement, though, this 14 reserve is five (5) times bigger than these other 15 reserves. 16 Q: Than the other reserves? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And there's handwriting on this seven 19 hundred and twelve thousand (712,000) acres? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Do you know what that refers to, 22 Professor -- 23 A: I -- 24 Q: -- Johnston? 25 A: -- think -- I think it refers to just

1 this block because you notice there's a line coming from 2 a point on the River Thames going -- going to the north 3 that I think that area, bounded by the St. Clair River to 4 the river just north of Kettle Point and coming down to 5 the Thames River exclusive of the Long Wood tract or may 6 be inclusive, would be about seven hundred and twelve 7 thousand (712,000) acres. 8