1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 January 31st, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )    (np)
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein ) (np)       The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       ) (np)       George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    )            Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )   (np)       Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )   (np)       Aazhoodena (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )   (np)       Kettle Point & Stoney
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Sue Freeborn     )   (np)
 25  Lynette D'Souza  )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (Np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 11  
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  
 15  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 16  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 17  
 18  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 19  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 20  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 21  Peter West       )   (np)
 22  
 23  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 24  Karen Jones      )              Police Association &
 25  Debra Newell     )   (np)       K. Deane

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Ian McGilp       )              Ontario Provincial
  4  Annie Leeks      )              Police Association &
  5                                   K. Deane
  6  
  7  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  8  Brian Eyolfson   )   (np)       Services of Toronto
  9  Julian Roy       )   (np)
 10  Clem Nabigon     )
 11  
 12  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
 13  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 14  
 15  William Horton   )              Chiefs of Ontario
 16  Matthew Horner   )   (np)
 17  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 18  
 19  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 20  Craig Mills      )
 21  
 22  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 23  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 24  Melissa Panjer   )
 25  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 4 5 GINA DAWN GEORGE, Sworn 6 7 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 7 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrew Orkin 150 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 153 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian McGilp 161 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 194 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 200 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Douglas Sulman 203 14 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 207 15 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Donald Worme 212 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 214 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 10:54 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in sessions. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I apologize to you and 11 to everyone for the short delay. We had some 12 administrative matters that had to be dealt with. The -- 13 I just wanted to tell everyone what the outline for this 14 week is. 15 The witnesses this week will be -- 16 starting with Gina George who's here this morning and 17 then Glenn George and Carolyn George and Hank Veens 18 assuming -- depending on how long everyone takes with 19 respect to each witness. We will sit today until five 20 o'clock and break at probably one -- around one o'clock 21 for the lunch break. 22 Tomorrow and Wednesday we'll sit from 9:00 23 to 4:30 and for those planning on these things, your 24 lunch break will start at 12:30 and then on Thursday 25 we'll be from 9:00 to 3:30. Thank you.

1 Mr. Worme is going to deal with our first 2 witness. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 4 morning, Mr. Worme. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, 6 Commissioner. The Commission calls as the next witness, 7 Ms. Gina George and she will be sworn by the alternate 8 oath, please. 9 THE REGISTRAR: Ms. George, would you 10 tell us your name in full, please. 11 THE WITNESS: Gina Dawn George. 12 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 13 14 GINA DAWN GEORGE, Sworn: 15 16 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 17 Q: Mrs. George, you were married to 18 Roderick George also known sometimes as Judas? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And can you tell us when you 21 were -- when you were married? 22 A: Good question. 1984, March 2nd. 23 Q: Okay. And your date of birth and I 24 know that this is probably not -- not very nice of me but 25 your date of birth is March 23rd, 1958; that's correct is

1 it? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Your parents and I understand your -- 4 your mother had just passed away very shortly. Your 5 mother was Dorothy Shawnoo? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And your father was Leo Stinson? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Right. And I understand your father 10 was from the Rama First Nation? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I understand that your stepfather 13 is Norman Shawnoo and he was a former chief in fact of 14 Kettle Point -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- of Kettle and Stony Point First 17 Nation? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. Your maternal grandparents 20 are Elmer and Emma Plain? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And your maternal great grandmother 23 and great great grandmothers, in fact, were both from 24 Stoney Point? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Your paternal grandmother was Gladys 2 Stinson? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And your great 5 grandmother, as I understand, Mrs. George, was born in 6 Kettle Point? 7 A: My great grandmother? 8 Q: Your great -- great grandmother? Is 9 that right? 10 A: My great grandmother was -- you've 11 got me mixed up now -- my great grandmother was born in 12 Stoney Point and my great great grandmother came to -- 13 came to Stoney Point from Wisconsin. 14 Q: Okay. Your grandmother was born in 15 Kettle Point, though, after the move in 1942. 16 A: No -- actually, no. My grandmother 17 was born in Kettle Point, but it was before 1942. My 18 grandmother was born in 1917. 19 Q: I see. You know something about the 20 1942 appropriation of the Stoney Point lands? 21 A: Not a whole lot. It was a -- my 22 grandmother really never talked about it too much. She - 23 - I don't know, maybe it was something that they really 24 didn't want to speak about. I didn't hear a whole lot of 25 -- of it from my grandmother.

1 Q: I see. Is there anything that you 2 did hear from your grandmother about that, that you can 3 share with us today? 4 A: No, just -- she was -- I think she 5 was very bitter about what had taken place. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And she sometimes told -- told us 8 that if we ever got married and married somebody from 9 Kettle Point, that would be a very -- she -- she didn't 10 like living there, I guess. 11 That's what I got from it, is that she -- 12 she felt very bitter about being there and said it was 13 kind of a hardship for, maybe her mother and others. 14 Q: Of having to move to the Kettle Point 15 community? Is that -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Yes. That's what I got from that. 19 Q: Was it also the case, Mrs. George, 20 that your grandmother had subsequently then moved into 21 the -- the Sarnia area? 22 A: Well, she married very young, married 23 my grandfather, and that's how she became a member of the 24 Omjinan (phonetic) First Nation. 25 Q: And that's also known as Sarnia, is

1 it? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. Together with Roderick, 4 you have a number of children, one (1) of whom has 5 testified here, that being Nicholas Cotrelle? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And he's sometimes known as "Uga"? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. You have other children 10 as well. Could you tell us about -- about them, Mrs. 11 George? 12 A: Yeah. My husband actually has two 13 (2) daughters from a previous marriage and then we have 14 Charmin (phonetic) and then there's Nicholas. We have 15 Melanie, Amanda and Stephanie. 16 Q: Okay. And I understand that in 1995, 17 Mrs. George, you were working full-time at the Kettle 18 Point First Nation delivering home -- homemaking 19 services? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what exactly did that entail by 22 way of these services? What -- what was your job? 23 A: Going into -- I actually worked in 24 the same home for thirteen (13) years and it was taking 25 care of two (2) ladies who were disabled, were not able

1 to -- to fulfill their -- anybody's activities of daily 2 living, so it was helping them with meals, homemaking, 3 like home -- housekeeping, personal care. 4 Q: You had some kind of training for 5 that, I take it, and as well I understood you also had 6 some basic first aid sort of training -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- so that you might assist these 9 people in -- in times of that sort of need? 10 A: Yes. I took a Health Care Aide 11 course. That was based on caring for older people, the 12 study of gerontology and that also, with homemaking 13 services, you were required to have first aid and CPR 14 renewed regularly. 15 Q: Where did you take that training and 16 when did you take that training, if you can tell us? 17 A: I think it was 1990 or 1991 and I 18 actually took it -- Lambton College offered it and 19 brought it to Kettle Point. So part of it was there and 20 then my clinical training took me to Petrolia to the 21 Twilight Haven Nursing Home. 22 Q: And while we're on the topic of your 23 education, you are presently enrolled at the University 24 of Windsor. 25 A: Yes, I'm enrolled there in

1 collaboration with Lambton College for a Bachelor of 2 Science in Nursing. I'm in my second year. 3 Q: That's a four (4) year program, is 4 it? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And when did you -- when 7 did you start that and when do you expect, then, to have 8 your Bachelor of Science in nursing? 9 A: I always forget what year it is, but 10 I -- I started that program in 2003 -- no, 2000 -- 2002, 11 so I won't have a degree until 2007. 12 Q: And in the meantime are you working, 13 or is studying your -- your occupation? 14 A: Actually studying is a full time -- 15 studying for this program is a full-time job itself. 16 Q: And, in fact, you're missing school 17 today in order to be here with us to -- 18 A: Yes, I am. 19 Q: And we do appreciate that. Now, Mrs. 20 George, I want to go back to 1980 and I understand that 21 you had attended a meeting concerning a settlement 22 between the -- the Kettle and Stony Point Band and the 23 Federal Government regarding the Stoney Point lands, also 24 known as Camp Ipperwash, and there was some discussions, 25 as I understand, about the distribution of monies to Band

1 members. 2 Is there something you can tell us about 3 that? 4 A: Yes. I attended that meeting and it 5 took place on -- in Kettle Point, at what was the ball 6 diamond, down along the lake. And I attended that with 7 my husband and I recall there was one (1) man, Doug 8 George, who was quite vocal. 9 He actually was expressing why Stoney 10 Point monies were being -- going to be distributed to all 11 Kettle Point Band members because he felt that was 12 unfair. He said the money shouldn't be distributed to 13 everybody because people on Kettle Point have lands and 14 they lease out those lands and they don't share those 15 monies with everybody and anybody from Stoney Point 16 either. 17 So he was quite -- quite angry with the 18 fact that monies that he felt should go to -- directly to 19 the Stoney Point people was going to be distributed to 20 the broader Band membership. 21 Q: Okay. The name you mentioned again 22 was Doug George? 23 A: Douglas George, yes. 24 Q: And was Douglas George a Stoney Point 25 descendant --

1 A: Descendant, yes. 2 Q: -- if I can put it that way? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. 5 Q: He came from a very large family, 6 actually. And I had the opportunity in Homemaking 7 Services to care for Doug George at one (1) point and he 8 was still quite vocal up until his passing that -- about 9 why monies were being distributed out to other people in 10 Kettle Point and not just Stoney Point people. 11 Q: Okay. So we should understand from 12 your comments that there had been some form of a payment 13 that was made -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- to the Band? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And distribution had taken place per 18 capita? That is to say, to individual members? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Right. Just on that note, Mrs. 21 George, did Stoney Point descendants participate in this 22 per capita distribution? 23 A: Well, I'm sure they all got -- from 24 my understanding is that everybody on the Band was given 25 a thousand dollars ($1,000).

1 Q: I see. And just to finish on that 2 point, was it your understanding that this per capita 3 payment was in the form of -- of rent? Is that what I 4 understood you to say? Or do you know what the payment 5 was? Perhaps that's a more fair question. 6 A: I think that's what it was. I was 7 think -- the government had labelled it as back payment 8 for use of the land, which I take as rent. 9 Q: I see. In 1990, I understand that 10 you had witnessed the funeral of Dan George and that your 11 husband participated as a pallbearer? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And what can you tell us about that? 14 Where did that occur and -- 15 A: Well, I wasn't really too familiar 16 with going into Stoney Point and when we went -- took a 17 long way around and circled around. I found burial 18 grounds to be overgrown and if I'm not mistaken, there 19 was still a fence there. There was -- it was fenced in 20 and it was not taken care of. That's my observation was 21 it wasn't being cared for. 22 Q: All right. Were you aware, Mrs. 23 George, that the funeral of Dan George was the first to 24 have occurred there in modern times, that is -- that is a 25 Stoney Point member?

1 A: Yes. Yes, I was aware of that. 2 Q: Right. And do you know how that came 3 about in terms of how that funeral was permitted to be 4 held on -- on that traditional land? 5 A: No, I'm not sure exactly how that 6 came to be and -- 7 Q: And just over your right shoulder, up 8 on the screen, is a map that has been marked in these 9 proceedings as... 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-40. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 13 Q: ...P-40. You recognize that, first 14 of all, Mrs. George? 15 A: Yeah. Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And there's a laser pointer 17 just to your right there. Should be a button there and 18 if you want to just take a moment to examine that, okay. 19 And if you could perhaps just with the 20 pointer indicate where the funeral -- or where the 21 cemetery is? 22 A: I'm not good at maps. 23 Q: Fair enough. And if you could maybe 24 just even estimate for us that would be helpful. I 25 appreciate your -- your candour in telling us that that's

1 difficult for you. 2 A: Well, I can see where the dump is, so 3 I imagine it's like back in here somewhere. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: I'm -- I'm not sure. In -- in here - 6 - like right in the middle I think of the -- of the whole 7 area. 8 Q: And you're indicating the middle of 9 the -- of the map that depicts the Army Camp or the -- 10 what's known as -- on the map as Ipperwash Military 11 Reserve? 12 A: Yes. I'm not sure. I'm not good at 13 direction. 14 Q: In terms of getting into the Army 15 Camp for the purposes of having this funeral, do you know 16 what measures were taken; whether there was any sort of 17 requests made or demands made or anything of that nature? 18 A: I would imagine there had to be some 19 kind of a request made or demand because we actually had 20 a wood stove at our home in Kettle Point and my husband 21 had to have permission to go into the lands also to cut 22 wood. 23 He had to ask for per -- for permission to 24 go in there so I imagine they weren't just allowing 25 anybody to come in and do a burial without asking

1 permission or demanding that they be allowed to bring 2 their -- their dad home to bury him. 3 Q: Okay. I take it from that then that 4 you don't know whether there was permission specifically 5 for the funeral but given your own experience, or your 6 husband's experience, in accessing the land on other 7 occasions, it's likely. 8 A: Yes. Likely. 9 Q: I take it from your earlier response 10 as well, Mrs. George, that you had not been on those 11 lands prior to the funeral? 12 A: Not that I can recall. I don't -- a 13 -- a couple of times maybe, I don't know. I -- I'm just 14 not -- 15 Q: That's fair enough and I understand, 16 though, that your husband had certainly been there? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: You're aware that your husband had 19 been on the -- the Army Camp range? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And in 1993, I take it you're aware 22 that a number of folks had moved onto the range and had 23 built temporary -- well, initially in -- in pup tents, I 24 think it's been described as. 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: All right. And do you know whether or 2 not your husband or any of your family had attended at 3 that point in time? That is from May of 1993? 4 A: Yes. My father-in-law moved onto the 5 lands -- 6 Q: Just for the record. If I -- I'm 7 sorry to interrupt you. Your father-in-law? 8 A: Abe George. 9 Q: All right. I'm sorry, go ahead. 10 A: As well as several of his grandsons 11 moved onto the land with him. There were others like 12 Glen George and Dudley and there were probably some 13 others that I don't recall right at the moment. 14 Q: Okay. And I take it your husband -- 15 you were aware that your husband would go there from time 16 to time? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: You had however maintained your own 19 residence at the Kettle Point community? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And just in referring again to the 22 map on the big screen, Mrs. George. Do you know where -- 23 when these folks had initially set up their camps, where 24 they were staying? And I appreciate that your earlier 25 advice that you're not good with maps. But if you can

1 help us there that would be great. 2 A: Okay. Maybe I'm a little bit more 3 able to look at it. I'm -- it's along the -- along 4 Highway 21 and I don't know. I don't know how far down 5 we were going, in this area somewhere? 6 Q: Okay. You're indicating in along the 7 range of the southern -- pardon me -- at the bottom part 8 of the photograph and we are told, Mrs. George, that the 9 bottom of the photograph runs adjacent -- bottom of the 10 map, rather, runs adjacent to Highway 21? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You're indicating a location 13 somewhere in the middle between what's depicted on the 14 map as magazine and the rifle range? 15 A: I guess, I'm not sure. 16 Q: And had you occasion when -- when 17 these folks were camping there, had you any occasion to 18 be there; to go in to -- to visit, to see family or 19 anything? 20 A: Yes, I went with my husband several 21 times and we went to the trailer where Dudley was staying 22 and we -- my husband often took, probably like, 23 cigarettes or some food items into them on several 24 occasions and we would go and visit with Dudley. 25 Q: And when -- and the times that you

1 would go and visit with Dudley, was there ever occasion 2 when you would stay over? 3 A: I never did, personally. I think my 4 husband probably maybe stayed late into the night, but I 5 don't -- I don't recall him ever staying overnight. 6 Q: All right. And the times that you 7 would visit and take stuff to -- to Dudley, what can you 8 tell us about that and perhaps even what can you tell us 9 about Dudley George? 10 A: It was -- he was always a really 11 outgoing person and happy to -- happy to have you come 12 and visit in his home and he was just always laughing and 13 cheerful and always joking around and I enjoyed going 14 there and visiting with him and I don't know. He was 15 just a nice guy to be around all the time. 16 Q: When you say, "His home," was he 17 living at that point in a -- in a tent? 18 A: No, he had a trailer there. There 19 was a trailer. 20 Q: And when you would go to visit at his 21 home, at his trailer, can you recall what the approximate 22 date of that might have been? 23 A: I don't know. I can't remember. I 24 remember going there in the wintertime as well as before 25 there was snow on the ground because there were -- I

1 don't know, it was, like, in the summertime and then into 2 the winter months. 3 Q: During the winter time that you would 4 go there to visit, do you recall who all might have yet 5 remained on the Army Camp land? 6 A: Gee, there was -- I don't -- I know 7 Glenn was there and I really don't recall who else would 8 have been there, but I know Dudley was one (1) of the 9 ones who stayed there during the winter. 10 Q: Okay. One (1) person that we've 11 heard from in this -- in -- in this Inquiry is Clifford 12 George. Do you recall whether he was there? 13 A: I'm sure that he was, but I -- in the 14 little -- maybe a little trailer or a little house a 15 little further up the road closer to the built-up area, 16 if he was there. 17 Q: I take it you had no occasion to 18 visit with him? 19 A: I went to Clifford's a couple times, 20 but not -- no, I wasn't a frequent visitor to Clifford's. 21 Q: All right. During the time that you 22 did attend there, did you ever witness any events, any 23 interaction between Dudley George and Military personnel? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what can you tell us about that?

1 A: He seen the Military vehicle going by 2 towards -- down Highway 21, away from the built-up area, 3 he knew they'd come back and he said, Watch this. When 4 they come back -- and as soon as he seen them coming, he 5 ran out and said, Get off my land, and threw some eggs at 6 them. 7 Q: Were they inside the fence or were 8 they outside the fence? 9 A: No, they were inside the fence along 10 the -- in -- along the roadway that run right beside his 11 trailer, in between his trailer and Highway 21. 12 Q: And if you could just refer to the -- 13 to the map on the screen again, there is a road that 14 would seem to run -- 15 A: There? 16 Q: Yes, adjacent to the southern border, 17 if I can put it that way. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And so the Military 20 personnel were driving by. I take it they'd be in a Jeep 21 or some patrol vehicle? 22 A: Some kind of Military vehicle, yes. 23 Q: Do you know whether or not they would 24 have heard Dudley George when he was telling them to get 25 off his land?

1 A: I don't think it was really cold out 2 at that time, so I think the -- their windows were open. 3 Q: Was -- was there any response by the 4 Military personnel? 5 A: They just kind of -- you know -- not 6 really, just kept driving by. 7 Q: Do you know whether or not they were 8 struck with the eggs that were thrown? 9 A: Oh, I think the eggs did hit their 10 vehicle. 11 Q: Okay. I take it they weren't that 12 far away? 13 A: No. His trailer was pretty close to 14 the roadway. 15 Q: All right. And you've described him 16 as a pretty happy sort of person. Was that behaviour at 17 odds at all, with what you had seen? 18 A: Well, I think he was like anybody 19 else that felt like -- you know, these people are on my 20 land and why don't they -- you know, they're -- they -- 21 they promised to give it back after the war was over. 22 The war was long over so I think he'd be like anybody 23 else. 24 But it wasn't like a real anger. It was 25 just kind of, I'm going to intimidate them a little and

1 I'm sure -- he knew they weren't going to leave, just 2 because he was throwing eggs at them, but he wasn't going 3 to make it easy for them to do their job riding by his 4 home. 5 Q: All right. And just on that point, 6 beyond eggs, are you -- are you aware -- are you aware of 7 whether or not there might have been anything other than 8 eggs, that Dudley George or anybody else at that point in 9 time, had visited upon Military personnel? 10 A: Not that I have ever wit -- 11 witnessed, anybody throwing anything else. 12 Q: And perhaps I should ask you at this 13 point as well, Mrs. George, whether during the time that 14 you were there visiting, whether you've seen any of the 15 Stoney Point occupiers use or point weapons or threaten 16 weapons, with respect to the Military personnel? 17 A: No. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: We were told that there was an 22 allegation of a helicopter being shot at some point -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- you're aware of that? 25 A: I heard of that, yes.

1 Q: And can you tell us anything at all 2 about that, beyond that you heard that -- that this 3 allegation had been made? 4 A: No, I -- I don't know anything about 5 it. I wasn't there. I only heard that that's the 6 allegation. I don't know anything else about it. 7 Q: All right. Your son, however, had 8 been arrested for an allegation made against him of 9 damaging property at the Army Camp. 10 Do you recall that at all? Your son, 11 Nicholas. 12 A: Yes. It was actually a sign that was 13 down on the beach, between where the Park fence was and 14 there was a drive going -- a driveway -- a roadway going 15 down there and then there was the -- the other side of 16 the beach which they termed the Military side. 17 And there was a big sign there and I think 18 they started a fire or something and it started -- caught 19 the sign on fire. It was like up on a hill, kind of. 20 And I guess he was -- they took him to Grand Bend. They 21 arrested him and took him to Grand Bend for that. 22 Q: How old was Nicholas at that time? 23 A: I don't know. Maybe fifteen (15). 24 Fourteen (14), fifteen (15). I'm not -- 25 Q: If you could just refer to the map at

1 -- of the Ipperwash Military reserve, at the upper 2 portion. I'm going to suggest to you that the upper 3 portion represents the Lake. 4 A: Yeah. And I think, like, right up -- 5 pretty close to the beach on this side of that roadway, 6 in there, that's where that sign was. 7 Q: And you've indicated, for the 8 purposes of the record, Mrs. George, the area that's the 9 intersection of the beach and what has been described for 10 us as the eastern border of the Provincial Park? 11 Is that fair? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. And just incidentally, 14 with respect to the arrest of your son Nicholas and him 15 being taken to Grand Bend, were you, as his parent, 16 informed of that or was his father or do you know? 17 A: I can't remember. Somebody called us 18 and told us that he was taken there for destroying a 19 sign. 20 Q: All right. And do you know what the 21 disposition is, or that is to say, what the outcome of 22 his being charged for destroying a sign? 23 A: I can't even remember at this point. 24 Q: All right. In the summer of 1995, 25 Nicholas advised you that he was going to be staying on

1 at the Army Camp. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And I understand, as well, Mrs. 4 George, that at that point you had more free time, or you 5 spent much of your free time then down at the beach area. 6 A: Yeah. When our children were out of 7 school we found more time, when I was off work, to go 8 down and we often took food items to cook, to feed all of 9 the young fellows that were down there, they had a bus 10 down along the beach and the Camp area. 11 It was nice to be there and to be 12 supporting them, because we knew that they felt strongly 13 about this, about getting the land back. 14 Q: And when you say young people, what 15 age group are we talking about firstly? 16 A: We're probably talking about my son's 17 age group at the time, so fifteen (15), sixteen (16), 18 seventeen (17), in that area. There was probably a few 19 older ones and I don't think there were any -- too many 20 younger than that, but there might have been a couple of 21 them. 22 Q: Primarily teenagers then? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And when you say fellas, do I take it 25 from that it was mostly males?

1 A: Yeah, I think so. It would be fair 2 to say it was mostly males. 3 Q: Okay. Along the -- the beach area, 4 was there any particular location that -- that was 5 favoured? 6 A: You're gonna ask me to point it out 7 again? 8 Q: I might, if you can tell me. 9 A: I only know it was an area that was 10 between two (2) big hills, and it was kind of like they 11 had their camp in that area. So I don't know how far 12 down the beach it was, but it was right on the beach. 13 Q: And during that time, do you recall 14 whether there was any interaction with Military 15 personnel, during the time that you had spent on the 16 beach, in support of these young people? 17 A: Not that I can recall. 18 Q: Your son, Nicolas, at some point 19 during that summer, advised you further that there was 20 other plans in the making; is that fair? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what was it that he told you? 23 A: He said they were planning on taking 24 back, kind of like, they wanted to be up in that built-up 25 area to chase the Military out of there.

1 Q: And the built-up -- when you say the 2 built-up area, we understand that that means the barracks 3 area? 4 A: Yeah. Right -- that area there, 5 because that's where most of the area -- that's mostly 6 where the Military was occupying. Although they were 7 doing their patrols, I'm sure, around the whole perimeter 8 of the area, but that's where they were taking up 9 residence. 10 Q: And in terms of Nicolas' advice to 11 you that they were -- now, did you say they were planning 12 to move to the built-up area? 13 A: I don't know if that's exact words, 14 but he said -- what he had said to me was, they felt like 15 they should have all of the lands back, they felt like 16 they shouldn't have to just occupy part of that area 17 along Highway 21 and part of the beach area. 18 He felt -- they said they felt like they - 19 - they needed to get the whole area back that was 20 occupied by the Military. 21 Q: All right. And in terms of this 22 stated feeling, I'm going to leave it at that for the 23 time being, were you told at all, by Nicolas or by 24 anybody, as to who was involved in the planning? 25 A: Well, I just took it as the whole

1 group that was there, that were occupying the land at the 2 time, the fellas who were down along the beach, and, 3 there might have been others. 4 Q: And the fellas that were down on the 5 beach, were -- were they all Stoney Point descendants as 6 far as you could tell? 7 A: As far as I know, yes. 8 Q: And did it seem to you, and I'll 9 leave this, did it seem to you that there was anybody, 10 for lack of a better word, in charge of the -- the young 11 fellas that were at the beach? 12 A: I don't think there was really 13 anybody in charge. I think they just were a group that 14 maybe were talking and maybe some of the older ones were 15 giving them some advice, but they had all come to 16 consensus that, yes, this is what we're going to do. 17 Q: I'm interested in your remark that 18 perhaps some older ones may have been giving advice. Do 19 you know who the older ones might have been? 20 A: I -- I would think maybe -- I would 21 think it was probably Abe, Abe George and Clifford. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: They were regarded as -- as Elders

1 within the community? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And I take it from your answer that 4 you're not -- one, you're not certain of it and you 5 wouldn't have any specific knowledge of what advice would 6 have been given? 7 A: No, because I wasn't there for the 8 discussion, so I couldn't tell you what kind of advice 9 was being given. 10 Q: When Nicholas told you about his 11 feeling or the desire of these young people, how did you 12 feel about that and what, if anything, did you do? 13 A: I talked to my son and I said, well, 14 how come all of us -- like how come -- to me, it seemed 15 like a snap judgment, but he said to me, sometimes you 16 think you're a little bit wiser than your children and 17 sometimes you find you're not. 18 And he said to me, the thing is, he said, 19 look at how old grandpa is and grandpa -- 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: We can just take a moment, Mrs. 24 George. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: And pretty soon grandpa's not going 4 to be here. And grandpa wants to move home. And if we 5 wait until the Military decides to give this land back, 6 grandpa may not be able to rebuild his home. Even though 7 he's there, he wants to know that the land is actually 8 coming back to his people. 9 So I just said to my son, okay, so 10 whatever you do, we have to support you in this one. 11 Q: So you definitely got a sense that 12 there was a feeling of -- I don't want to put words in 13 your mouth, but would urgency or -- 14 A: Well, I think that they felt like 15 they'd waited long enough for the Military to give back 16 land. It was -- it was like almost fifty (50) years, so 17 -- or there was more than fifty (50) years and he said 18 how much longer are we going to wait? 19 Are we going to wait 'til your generation 20 has gone too, before we wait for the Military to give it 21 back? Am I going to be old before they give it back? 22 Him -- speaking of his own age group. 23 Are we going to be still trying to get 24 back lands that they promised to give back a long time 25 ago? We're tired of listening to them. They're -- all

1 they do is talk, talk, talk. 2 We're tired of hearing talk and we're just 3 going to take some action and that's all that is -- there 4 is to it. And if they don't like that we're taking back 5 our land, well, too bad for them, because the land 6 belongs to us. 7 Q: You've told us that you were clearly 8 prepared to support this. Did you feel any sort of 9 apprehension, Mrs. George? 10 A: Not really. Not after he said that. 11 Not after his explanation as to why. I just felt like if 12 the land was going to come back to the people, I guess 13 that is -- was the only way they were going to get it 14 back was because he's -- he was right. 15 There was -- that's all the government 16 wanted to do, was talk, and all the government wanted to 17 do was talk to the Kettle Point Band. They didn't want 18 to talk to the Stoney Point people that were originally 19 removed from those lands. 20 And in doing that, how -- how were these 21 people -- how were we ever going to get the land back, 22 when they're dealing with another faction that did not 23 own these lands? 24 Q: Would it be fair to say, Mrs. George, 25 that there was an expression of frustration that your

1 son, Nicholas, was putting forward? 2 A: Yes. I felt he was very frustrated, 3 because he spent time with his grandfather and they 4 always listened to what their grandfather had to say, his 5 feelings. And so I felt that he -- they were feeling his 6 frustration. 7 And as young people, young men, it was 8 their job to go out and -- and try and do what grandpa 9 wanted -- wanted. 10 Q: In terms of -- of this expression in 11 that they told -- or he told you, rather, that they felt 12 they should take the barracks, did he explain to you the 13 manner in which that they would attempt to achieve this 14 objective? 15 A: No, I wasn't given any explanation 16 about that. 17 Q: Were you concerned at that that might 18 include violent action? 19 A: No, I didn't -- 20 Q: That, in fact, your son or others 21 might be hurt? 22 A: I didn't think they would -- I didn't 23 think they were going to do anything violent because it 24 sounded like there was women involved and children and 25 they were just going to march in.

1 Q: And I -- I may have asked you 2 earlier, but I'll ask you again, Mrs. George, at that 3 point did you hear any discussions or did you see 4 anything to do with firearms? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Did you have any concern that 7 firearms might be part of this march in, in terms of 8 achieving the objective of taking back the barracks or 9 the built-up area? 10 A: No. 11 Q: And on the 29th of July, in 1995 12 we're told that, in fact, there was a move into the 13 barracks area by a number of individuals, and I take it 14 your son was among them? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: What can you tell us about that? 17 Were you involved in that at all, Mrs. George? 18 A: No, my husband and I had gone to 19 Sarnia that day, so actually there was -- to me there 20 wasn't really -- it may be -- might have been a -- a 21 decision they made that morning or -- because weren't 22 aware of it. 23 We had gone to Sarnia and then we had come 24 back and we took our usual way in down by the -- along 25 the highway only to find that everybody was up around

1 this end of the built-up area because they had said to us 2 that they were -- they were taking it over and that the 3 Military was moving out. It was actually getting towards 4 evening when we returned that day -- towards early 5 evening. 6 Q: On the 29th of July -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- in 1995. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: When you say you took your usual way, 11 I gather that's along Highway 21? 12 A: Yes. There was a break in the fence 13 there, a driveway that we went in; that's how we entered. 14 Q: And your testimony is, is that people 15 were in the built-up area by that point? 16 A: Yes. They were at one (1) end, 17 though. They were kind of gathered around a couple of 18 buildings here. There was, like, a chapel or something 19 here and everybody was sitting outside of there and they 20 were waiting for, I guess it was -- they were waiting for 21 a decision by the Military to actually vacate the 22 premises. 23 Q: Okay. You had just pointed earlier 24 to the eastern portion of what's been referred to as the 25 built-up area. We now have on the screen a diagram of

1 Camp Ipperwash. Do you recognize that, first of all? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And this has been marked as P-41 in 4 these exhibits, Mrs. George, and I wonder if you might 5 just take that laser pointer again and indicate the area 6 that you just referred to? 7 A: In this area here. This is where 8 people were sitting. They were sitting out on the grass 9 around in that area. 10 Q: Can you recall how many people were 11 sitting around the grass at that area? 12 A: There was quite a few people. There 13 was women and children and some of the young fellows and 14 some of the older ones were there, too. 15 Q: Could you describe the mood of the 16 people that you'd encountered when you arrived there 17 towards the evening on the 29th of July? 18 A: They were actually pretty excited and 19 -- and feeling -- their spirits were up and they were 20 feeling happy that, perhaps, the Military was going to 21 leave the area. 22 Q: Were you made aware, at that point, 23 as to whether or not there had been any altercations 24 between the people that were now sitting there and the 25 Military personnel?

1 A: They said something about the bus 2 coming in, just like, driving in and -- but I really 3 didn't catch too much because there was too -- too much 4 excitement and everybody was trying to say what was going 5 on all at the same time, so I didn't -- 6 Q: Given your background in -- in first- 7 aid, did you notice whether or not anybody was injured or 8 any such thing had -- 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: I take it that's something that would 11 have stuck out in your mind. 12 A: I think they said a couple of people 13 had gotten pepper sprayed, but I didn't really observe 14 those people there at the time. 15 Q: You're aware that a decision was made 16 at some point on that day I think we're told, that the 17 Military did decide that they would vacate? 18 A: Yes, later that evening. 19 Q: What can you tell us about that? 20 A: We were still around in that area and 21 then -- I can't remember who came back and they said the 22 military's leaving. They decided they were leaving so 23 that they would prevent any kind of -- I guess, any kind 24 of violence between the two (2) or any kind of 25 altercation between the two (2) groups, between the

1 Military and the Stoney Point people. 2 Q: Did you get the sense that there was 3 imminent violence? And I -- I just asked that -- you 4 used the word "violence." 5 A: Well, nobody looked like they were 6 violent to me. They were just kind of sitting and 7 waiting for a decision to be made. 8 Q: On that note and I've asked you this 9 in relation to the -- the range area. Did you note 10 whether or not there was anybody with firearms or any 11 discussion of having firearms? 12 A: No. There -- I never heard any 13 discussion about firearms or anybody with firearms. 14 Q: You had maintained the house in the 15 meantime at the Kettle Point community? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Your residence had been there 18 throughout? 19 A: Yeah. After my husband and I got 20 married, we moved to Kettle Point. We had previously 21 resided in Sarnia on the reserve and we moved to Kettle 22 Point. We lived in an apartment for a couple of years 23 and then we had a house built and that was our residence 24 right up until we decided to move to Stoney Point but we 25 still maintained that residence.

1 Q: So you would go back and forth 2 between the residence in Stoney Point and your Kettle 3 Point residence? 4 A: Yeah just -- we had a phone line 5 hooked up there and a fax machine because when we were in 6 Stoney Point there was no telephones there. So it was 7 kind of like a -- our communication, ways of 8 communicating with other people. Even cell phones -- we 9 found cell phones didn't work there at Stoney Point. 10 Q: And if you could just -- you -- you 11 said you took up a residence then at the built-up area? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: I wonder if you might just indicate 14 on P-41, where that would have been? 15 A: We live -- we live here now in this 16 building right along the highway. 17 Q: I -- I realize that the numbering is 18 very small on there, but are you able to identify the 19 number of the building on there, Mrs. George? 20 A: 39 or 37, I don't know. I -- I can't 21 -- I don't know. I know it's 30 something. 22 Q: Now there is a paper copy in front of 23 you. I'm going to ask you if you just might refer to 24 that please. And I think there's also a pen beside you 25 there, Mrs. George.

1 A: It's 37. 2 Q: Okay, thank you. You took up that 3 residence, can you tell us approximately when that might 4 have been? 5 A: I don't know if it was the next day 6 after the Military left or the following day. Within -- 7 within a day or two (2) after the Military left. 8 Q: Very shortly after the Military left? 9 A: Yes, yes. 10 Q: And do you maintain that residence 11 today? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And just getting back to your Kettle 14 Point residence, do you still maintain that residence? 15 A: It's not there anymore. It burnt 16 down. We got a call, I don't know, a few years back -- 17 three (3) years maybe in February. We got a call in the 18 middle of the night at the gatehouse and Dave George was 19 at the gate working the gate and he came and he said our 20 house was on fire. 21 Immediately you think it's the house 22 you're in now and then he said my house in Kettle Point. 23 So -- I can't remember -- I took one (1) of my children 24 with me and drove down there and it was, like, the flames 25 were just shooting out of the roof.

1 And after they doused the fire and kind of 2 -- like the fire -- the fellow who was in charge of the 3 police was there. He just kind of -- I think took a look 4 and then just went home and -- and there really wasn't 5 any investigation done, but it was arson. 6 I looked into one (1) of the back bedrooms 7 of the house. I peered in through the window. The fire 8 had started in there. There was a big hole in the middle 9 of the floor where -- which, to me, couldn't possibly 10 have been started electrically. 11 Somebody had deliberately set the fire. 12 The door was kicked in. We had locks on the doors and 13 the door -- the back door was kicked in. And there was 14 never really any investigation done into the -- just 15 termed arson. 16 And then Kettle Point -- the insurance 17 company settled with them. We actually had to fight with 18 them to get money from our house burning down. 19 Q: Did you obtain a remedy, Mrs. George? 20 A: Pardon? 21 Q: Did you obtain satisfaction? 22 A: Well, we took what we could get from 23 them, because they were trying to say that we could 24 rebuild. Now why would I want to rebuild when somebody 25 will come and just burn my house down again?

1 Other people in Stoney Point had their 2 houses burned down. Carolyn, and I think they had even 3 tried to set fire to Dean Cloud's house. He's a resident 4 in Stoney Point also. 5 Q: And I just want to be clear here, 6 Mrs. George. You'd indicated that it was determined to 7 be arson but there was no real investigation; is that 8 what I understood you to -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- to say? 11 A: Yes. There was no investigation into 12 it. 13 Q: And who would have determined that it 14 was arson? 15 A: The Fire Marshall. 16 Q: I see. You didn't rebuild then, I 17 gather? 18 A: No. We didn't see any point in 19 trying to rebuild because if somebody wants to burn your 20 house down, are they going to come and try and burn it 21 down if you're actually living in it also? 22 So I had no desire to rebuild when I knew 23 that somebody was out there and wanted us -- wanted -- 24 didn't like us and wanted to burn our house down. And I 25 just felt like I was threatened.

1 Q: You -- you would have stayed, then, 2 at -- at the built-up area after that point in time? 3 A: Well, we were there right from -- 4 from, like I said, in '95 and we maintained that house in 5 Kettle Point. We had -- we kept it heated and kept the 6 phone line hooked up and at one (1) point we had rent -- 7 at a couple of different times we had rented it out to 8 other people in Kettle Point. 9 Q: And during the time then that you 10 stayed at the Army Camp, I take it you were aware, Mrs. 11 George, that various other residents of the built-up area 12 would have hunted, from time to time? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: They would have used firearms for the 15 purposes of hunting? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Were you at all aware of who the 18 hunters were and what kind of firearms might have been 19 employed -- used by them? 20 A: No. I don't know anything about guns 21 at all. 22 Q: Do you know where they might have 23 kept their guns; that is to say, the guns that they used 24 for the purposes of hunting. 25 A: I don't know.

1 Q: Did your husband maintain a gun? Was 2 he a hunter? Perhaps I can ask that first. 3 A: No. No, my husband's not a hunter. 4 Q: What about any of your -- your sons? 5 Or your son, Nicholas? 6 A: I think he might have went hunting 7 like way -- sometime later. Maybe when he was about 8 eighteen (18) or something. I remember him getting a 9 deer -- 10 Q: Did he maintain a firearm at the 11 barracks -- 12 A: No -- 13 Q: -- to your knowledge? 14 A: No. No, I think he just like had -- 15 went out with his uncle or something or -- I'm not sure 16 how he got this one (1) deer but I -- I know he got one 17 later on and that was after the shooting of Dudley. 18 Q: All right. And during that time in 19 August of 19 -- or the summer of 1995, including August 20 of 1995, there were a variety of people from other 21 communities that were there in support of the Stoney 22 Point people. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And do you know who these individuals 25 might be or what other communities they might have came

1 from? 2 A: People came from -- actually after 3 the shooting I think people came from all different 4 nations, like, there were some from Walpole, from Sarnia, 5 from -- I think we had one (1) fellow there, he come from 6 up in the northern part of Ontario, Sagamok. There was 7 some from there; from Oneida Nation. 8 Q: Okay. Let me just ask you about the 9 time period just before September of 1995. 10 Were there people from other communities, 11 First Nations people in particular, that were there in 12 support of the Stoney Point people? 13 A: Yes, I think there was a couple. 14 Q: Okay. Do you recall where they might 15 have been from and who they were? 16 A: I remember there was -- I think a 17 couple of people from Oneida and then maybe a couple -- I 18 don't know if that was before or after, though. Before, 19 I think from Oneida, but I'm not -- and I know that there 20 was some people that came from the States side in 21 Michigan, but I'm -- I'm not sure where they were from 22 exactly. 23 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: But I know they came to support.

1 Q: I see. Do you know their names at 2 all? 3 A: No, there was an older fellow came 4 and then there was a few younger ones, but I'm not sure 5 of their names. 6 Q: You had talked about the young people 7 and the -- the advice that your son, Nicholas, had given 8 you that it was their feeling they should move into the 9 built-up area. I understand that he expressed other 10 feelings to you relative to the Provincial Park. 11 Again, in and around this time, your -- 12 did your son or did other of these young people talk 13 about their feelings with respect to the Provincial Park? 14 A: Yeah. Well, yes, because my son -- I 15 -- I think after talking to his grandfather, realized 16 that there's graves there in that Park and then they have 17 all of these people in there camping and driving back and 18 forth and not really knowing where these burial sites are 19 of our people. 20 I think that was a disturbing fact that, 21 okay, these people are camping out on our ancestors' 22 burial grounds and something has to be done about that. 23 Q: Okay. What did you know about -- 24 about that particular piece of land, Mrs. George? 25 A: Just the little bits and pieces that

1 I heard my father-in-law talking about -- Abe George -- 2 about how he remembered maybe some different -- I don't 3 know if it was his -- his remembrance or if somebody else 4 had told him a story about this man who had journeyed a 5 long way to come and bury his wife there, because I'm 6 sure -- I think they were from there or something. 7 I'm -- I'm not sure, it's not really 8 clear. I just remember hearing little bits and pieces 9 about it. 10 Q: All right. I want to move, then, 11 into the September -- into the -- the time period of 12 September 1995 and I wonder, Mr. Commissioner, if this 13 might be an appropriate time to take our morning break? 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 15 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry well recess 16 for fifteen (15) minutes. 17 18 --- Upon recessing at 11:52 a.m. 19 --- Upon resuming at 1:06 p.m. 20 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 22 resumed. Please be seated. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 25 Q: Mrs. George, we're aware that on the

1 4th of September, there was a group of individuals that 2 entered the Ipperwash Provincial Park and we're told that 3 they went in through the east -- a gate on the east side 4 of the Park. Are you aware of that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Were you part of that group at 7 all? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And what can you tell us about how 10 that -- how that occurred or what happened when you got 11 there? I take it you got there at some point? 12 A: I didn't get there until later in the 13 evening. We were there earlier in the day but we were 14 along the beach and I heard them a little bit -- talk 15 about them going into the Park or -- and I wasn't really 16 involved in it. 17 I had to work -- go to work at four 18 o'clock that day. So I was actually probably gone home 19 about 3:30. And my husband was -- had been drinking so 20 he came with me and I left him at the house at Kettle 21 Point and I end up going to work and calling for a stand- 22 in after I got to work and end up going back home and 23 staying with my husband. 24 Q: Why was that, Mrs. George? 25 A: Because he had been drinking and I

1 think he had a little too much to drink, so I was kind of 2 concerned there with leaving him at home. 3 Q: All right. When you say that you had 4 to go to work, you had told us earlier that you were 5 providing home -- home-care and homemaking services, -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- that would have been on Kettle 8 Point? 9 A: Kettle Point, yes. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: So go ahead from there and tell us 13 what happens. 14 A: Oh, I know it was like a -- I worked 15 a eight -- I usually work a eight (8) hour shift, which 16 would of took me up to midnight and I just felt that was, 17 like, too long to be away from home, away from my husband 18 when he was in that condition. So I -- it was probably 19 like five-thirty or something, I phoned and got somebody 20 to come and fill in for me. 21 And then after I got back to the house, my 22 mother-in-law called, Muriel George, and she said that 23 they had gone into the Park and that the police were 24 there and grandpa was down there and she wanted my 25 husband to go down.

1 Q: And did you express to her your 2 concern that you had told us about just moments ago, with 3 respect to your husband and the fact that he might have 4 had too much to drink? 5 A: Yes. But he already -- he already 6 heard what was being said, so he -- we had two (2) 7 telephones in the house and he was on the other line, so 8 he had already heard and there was -- he came out and -- 9 out of the bedroom, and he wanted to go. 10 So, it was either I drove him or he drove 11 himself, and I didn't want him to drive in that 12 condition, so I drove. I drove him to the Park. 13 Q: Okay. And what happened? 14 A: We pulled into the Park, I'm not sure 15 which -- I'm not even sure which way we went into the 16 Park, whether we went in through the built-up area and 17 went down the dirt road or we drove right down and went 18 in through one (1) of the Park entrances. 19 I'm not quite sure how it is we actually 20 went in but once we got in there, there were, I believe, 21 a couple of police cruisers and I actually could identify 22 George Speck as one (1) of the police officers that were 23 there. 24 And I could see all of our -- our own 25 people were kind of further away from where we were, and

1 some of the young people came running and a couple of the 2 women, and I said to my husband that the police won't 3 leave, and they didn't want them there. 4 They said they weren't going to be there. 5 I think it was part of a previous agreement or something 6 earlier in the day, that there wouldn't be police 7 involved with handing over the Park. 8 And so my husband was very angry that they 9 were there and that the older people were feeling 10 intimidated by this. So he told them to leave and they 11 just -- they wouldn't -- they weren't really listening to 12 him. 13 So then he picked up some kind of a stick 14 or log or something and he smashed the cruiser window. 15 And then they -- they left after that. 16 Q: There's a map up on the screen, 17 beside you. Do you recognize that, first of all, Mrs. 18 George? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: It has been marked in these 21 proceedings as P-16. You'll agree with me -- pardon me, 22 P-61. You'll agree with me that that is a depiction of 23 the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Perhaps not the best one you've seen?

1 A: Well, I can -- I can identify with 2 it, I think. 3 Q: Thank you. You've indicated that 4 you're not certain how you would have entered the Park on 5 that day. Does looking at that at all assist you? 6 A: No. I'm not sure. I just know -- I 7 wasn't too familiar, actually, with the Park at that 8 time. I'd never been in there. 9 Q: I see. 10 A: I had never been in there, up to that 11 point. So I don't know. Like, I just -- like I said, 12 I'm not good with direction. I'm not good with -- 13 Q: And that makes two (2) of us. 14 A: -- which way things are or which way 15 I entered. I just knew we were in the Park. 16 Q: The vehicle that you were operating, 17 that would be -- I understand that you were operating a - 18 - a blue Nova? 19 A: No. It was a -- it's a red one. It 20 was red. 21 Q: A red Nova, sorry. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. And when you entered the 24 Park, I think you've told us that you noticed there were 25 a number of people there, including police officers --

1 A: Yeah -- 2 Q: -- from the Ontario Provincial 3 Police? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Do you know how many of them there 6 might have been; whether they were uniformed or not 7 uniformed? 8 A: I'm sure they were -- they -- I'm 9 sure they were uniformed because they had the cruisers 10 and I -- I'm pretty sure they were wearing uniforms. 11 Q: And in terms of numbers of officers, 12 do you have any recollection of that? 13 A: I think there was two (2) cruisers 14 there, that I could see. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And maybe three (3) or four (4) 17 police officers. 18 Q: I see. And you've mentioned the name 19 George Speck. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: As being someone that was familiar to 22 you? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: How was it that you were familiar 25 with Officer Speck?

1 A: I'm not sure. I just know who he 2 was. Like, I just -- could identify him as one (1) of 3 the police officers. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And you've told us the -- about the 8 incident between your husband and the police officers, 9 where he broke a window of the police vehicle? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Can you perhaps indicate on the map 12 where you think that that might have occurred? 13 A: I'm not sure. Had to be in an area 14 over here somewhere. 15 Q: Okay. And I recognize that that was 16 a long time ago, Mrs. George, and that you're uncertain. 17 You've indicated, in any event, a general vicinity to the 18 north of the Park store? 19 A: I think so. 20 Q: After the police officers or the 21 police left the Park, can you describe what was going on 22 at that point then, Mrs. George? 23 A: Well, there was kind of -- a rush of 24 people came over and -- and thanked my husband for 25 actually chasing the police away because they were

1 scared, they were upset, visibly, because there was 2 children there. And there was some of the older women. 3 They were really upset that the police were there and 4 they felt really intimidated and -- so they came rushing 5 and -- and thanked my husband for chasing them away. 6 Q: Okay. What happens after that? 7 A: I'm not sure. I just know -- I think 8 I just took my husband back up to the built-up area and 9 he went to sleep. 10 Q: I'd asked you earlier, with respect 11 to the Camp and with respect to the range, but at that 12 point did you see among the people that were in the Park 13 -- Stoney Point people that were in the Park -- any kind 14 of firearms? 15 A: No, nothing like that. 16 Q: Aside from the stick that you 17 observed your husband Roderick use, did you see whether 18 or not there were any other similar types of instruments 19 that could be used as weapons? 20 A: I didn't notice anybody with 21 anything. 22 Q: Whether anybody was carrying anything 23 in their hands, or otherwise? 24 A: Not that I -- not that I seen. 25 Q: Is there anything further, that

1 sticks out in your mind, Mrs. George, about September the 2 4th of '95, prior to your returning back to the barracks 3 with your husband so that he could sleep? 4 A: I don't think so. 5 Q: All right. On September the 5th, 6 which would be a Tuesday, I understand that you returned 7 then, to the Park. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Do you know what time you would have 10 went back to the Park? 11 A: Probably early afternoon, maybe. I 12 don't know. Probably all throughout the day, I would 13 think. 14 Q: You would have been travelling back 15 and forth -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- from the built-up area -- your 18 residence in the built-up area and the Park? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And in terms of travelling back and 21 forth, what -- what were you doing? 22 A: Probably just taking food and drinks 23 down to people in the Park. 24 Q: When you say, "drinks," would that 25 include, by any chance, alcoholic beverage?

1 A: No. Pop, juice, water. 2 Q: Do you know whether or not there was 3 any kind of discussion or decision taken, with respect to 4 people in the Park, consuming alcohol or otherwise? 5 A: Not that I heard, like, myself. I 6 didn't really hear that. 7 Q: And I understand that in terms of the 8 items that you were taking back to the Park, the food and 9 the -- and the drinks, that there was a bit of a picnic 10 that was held? 11 A: Yeah, there was a lot of people down 12 in the Park area and just kind of a celebration so to 13 speak, that they had acquired their burial grounds back 14 and rightfully so, and some people were not really 15 wanting to leave there and so a lot of people were 16 bringing in food, sandwiches and different things, 17 different food items. 18 Q: When you say that people were -- 19 people had acquired their burial grounds, do you know 20 whether or not there were any, perhaps, ceremonies to 21 accompany that? Did you witness any such thing? 22 A: Not that I witnessed, but not until 23 later when they wanted to identify exactly where some of 24 the burial grounds were within the Park. 25 Q: So that did occur at some point in

1 time? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you know when that would have 4 been, Mrs. George, and -- 5 A: I'm not sure of the exact dates of 6 that, but I know there was a couple of people that came 7 from the Oneida nation, came to help in that respect, 8 that they can identify where the -- where the -- some of 9 the burial sites were, and in fact, we found -- I wasn't 10 there to -- to witness it, I was actually up at the main 11 kitchen of the Camp and I was preparing food to feed 12 them. 13 And I was told that there burial sites 14 under the roadway that led from the maintenance shed into 15 the Park area and so we had that road closed off so that 16 cars weren't driving back and forth over those burial 17 sites. 18 Q: Okay. And so I'm clear on this, you 19 said that this was located by people that came from 20 Oneida to assist? 21 A: Yes, yes. 22 Q: Are you able to -- to tell us in 23 reference to the map on the screen beside you, Mrs. 24 George, as to this might have -- where this location was? 25 A: The roadway that they closed off was

1 that roadway there. 2 Q: Right. And you're indicating the 3 line depicting a roadway approximately through the middle 4 of the diagram. 5 A: Well, just right outside of that 6 maintenance shed, up until that paved -- paved section of 7 roadway that runs through the Park. 8 Q: Right to the north, immediately 9 adjacent to what's depicted as the bridge? Is that 10 right? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. On the 5th of September, in 13 '95, when you had attended there, that there's a picnic 14 going on. You've described that there was a number of 15 people around. We were told as well that there was a 16 helicopter that came about. 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: What can you tell us about that? 19 A: The helicopter came flying above 20 where everybody was in the picnic and I would -- was just 21 arriving and opening my trunk to get all of the things 22 out that I brought. 23 And the helicopter came very low, flew 24 very low, because there was -- people had paper plates 25 and stuff and everything went flying off the tables.

1 And there was a lady had a newborn baby 2 there and that was very upsetting to her, to have the 3 helicopter hovering. And there was like a big -- like 4 the wind that it creates, blowing at everybody. 5 And I think they especially were trying to 6 see what I was pulling out of my trunk but it was just 7 food. It was drinks and food and I could identify one 8 (1) -- one (1) OPP officer in the helicopter who was -- 9 it looked like they were taking pictures of people or 10 maybe they were identifying -- trying to identify some of 11 the people who were on the ground. 12 Q: All right. And who was this -- this 13 OPP officer that you were able to identify in the 14 helicopter? 15 A: It was Vince George. 16 Q: Okay. Did anything else happen as 17 this helicopter then is flying around and you think 18 people are taking pictures or attempting to identify the 19 people in the Park? 20 A: I think a couple of the fellows threw 21 sticks or something up at them to try and like, get out 22 of here and leave us alone type of thing. Probably -- 23 Q: Do you know whether they were able to 24 strike these helicopters? 25 A: I don't think so. I don't think

1 anything actually hit the helicopter. 2 Q: Because they were too high? 3 A: No. Probably just -- I don't know. 4 Maybe they weren't -- they didn't throw high enough. I 5 don't know. But it didn't look like it actually struck 6 anything. 7 Q: Fair enough. Just incidentally, on 8 that note, before we move off of that, do you recall 9 seeing Bonnie Bressette there? 10 A: Yes, I actually remember her -- 11 seeing her there with a lot of her family members. 12 Q: These would include some of her 13 grandchildren? 14 A: Yes. Her daughters and her 15 grandchildren. 16 Q: And they were there to participate in 17 the picnic and visiting and so on? 18 A: I believe, yes. 19 Q: Do you recall how long you might have 20 stayed at the Park, Mrs. George? 21 A: Well, I think I was just like coming 22 and going all day because my daughters were young then. 23 I had young daughters who were not too pleased with using 24 any kind of outdoor facilities for bathrooms, so they 25 always wanted to go home to go to the bathroom, so I'd --

1 I'd run and take them up and my other daughter was -- I - 2 - I think she was -- she liked to watch a lot of the news 3 coverage and she always taped -- like to tape it. 4 So she was -- stayed up at the house a lot 5 of the time and I would go back and forth to check on 6 her, also. 7 Q: In Kettle Point? 8 A: No. In -- at -- in -- 9 Q: At the built-up area? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right. In Building Number 30 -- 12 A: 7. 13 Q: 37, that you've identified for us? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. As you would travel back 16 and forth between the Park and the built-up area, taking 17 your children and so on, what route would you typically 18 take? And again, we're talking about Tuesday, the 5th of 19 September. 20 A: Oh, I travelled the dirt road that 21 ran inside of the fence along Army Camp Road. 22 Q: Okay. During the times -- the times 23 that you would have travelled that route, did you notice 24 whether or not there was any OPP officers, in the 25 vicinity?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And where did you observe them? 3 A: Out along Army Camp Road. 4 Q: Okay. So they would have been 5 outside of the -- 6 A: Outside of the fence but on Army Camp 7 Road itself, yes. 8 Q: All right. And what were they doing 9 on Army Camp Road, outside of the fence? 10 A: They had some checkpoints set up, 11 they were starting to set up checkpoints -- 12 Q: Did you -- 13 A: -- along there. 14 Q: And in reference to the map on the 15 screen, which we've looked at earlier, marked as P-40 in 16 these Proceedings, Mrs. George, can you describe where 17 those checkpoints might have been, that you noticed? 18 A: I actually noticed a checkpoint when 19 you turn right off Highway 21, even before you got to the 20 main gate, there was one (1) there, and if you came out 21 of the main gate and headed down towards the lake, there 22 was one (1) there. 23 Q: And you've indicated, just for the 24 record, at a -- at a point that is almost adjacent to the 25 northernmost end of the built-up area?

1 A: Yes, in that area, in that vicinity 2 right there. 3 Q: Right, go ahead. 4 A: And then if you go -- then if I've 5 travelled further down I think there was another one in 6 here somewhere, and then there was one (1) on the curve 7 that went to East Parkway Drive. 8 Q: All right. So you've indicated at 9 least four (4) checkpoints that you had observed? 10 A: There might have been only three (3), 11 but I think -- I'm sure there was four (4). 12 Q: At any point in time did you travel 13 on Army Camp Road on Tuesday, the 5th of September? 14 A: Yes, I wanted to see where all these 15 checkpoints are and how long it would take me to get to 16 work, because I had to go on a midnight shift on the 17 following evening, and I wanted to know how long it was 18 gonna take me, other than my ususal time, to go through 19 all these checkpoints to get to work. 20 Q: So tell us about that. 21 A: I came out of the gate and I 22 travelled down towards the lake way. 23 Q: So north on Army Camp Road? 24 A: Yes. And I came to the first 25 checkpoint and I was asked for my driver's license,

1 insurance, where I was going. 2 And then I got to the next checkpoint, and 3 there was cars ahead of me, and some of them were non- 4 Native, and I noticed that after the very -- probably the 5 first checkpoint, there -- they were just kind of, said 6 they can go through, they weren't really checked for 7 anything, they were just a few words exchanged and they 8 were allowed to go through, whereas I, at every 9 checkpoint, had to show all of my documents and say where 10 I was going. 11 And I said, well, why can't you just ask 12 the guy at the previous checkpoint, why can't you radio 13 and ask him, because I've already showed this several 14 times. 15 And then even when I got to the next road 16 over, which was -- I don't even know the name of that 17 road, Ravenswood Road, there was a checkpoint there and I 18 had to show all of my documents there. 19 So I've actually gone through a number of 20 checkpoints and at every one I had taken several minutes. 21 Q: So, Ravenswood Road and -- 22 A: Ravenswood Road and -- 23 Q: -- East Parkway Drive? 24 A: Yes. There was one there too. 25 Q: An additional checkpoint?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And just, if we can stay with the 3 checkpoints for a moment, how would you describe those, 4 and how were they staffed? 5 A: Well, I think there was a couple of 6 police officers at each one. There was more than one 7 (1), I know that. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: And it just seemed odd that, why are 10 they asking me for all of my stuff. I said where I -- 11 what I was doing was trying to find how long it was gonna 12 take me to get to work, because of all these checkpoints 13 being there and having to show all of my documents at 14 each one. 15 Seemed very unusual, because if you're 16 checked at the first one, why do you have to go through 17 every single one when it's just a couple hundred yards 18 down the road? 19 Q: And so when you went on this, to go 20 and check how long it would take you to get to work, were 21 you with anyone? 22 A: I don't think so, I think I went by 23 myself. 24 Q: You've indicated that there were non- 25 Aboriginal people that -- in other vehicles, and it

1 seemed to you that they were not required at each 2 checkpoint to go through the same routine? 3 A: Oh I know they weren't because in 4 just -- there was just a couple of words exchanged and 5 they were just kind of waved on. 6 Q: When you asked the officers why you 7 were required to go through the routine at each 8 checkpoint, did you get a response at all? 9 A: Not really. Just said, you know, if 10 you don't want to show us your documents, then you can 11 just turn around and go back from where you came from. 12 Q: All right. You eventually went back 13 to the Park, I understand, Mrs. George, and you observed 14 some interaction between some police officers and -- and 15 some of the occupiers inside of the Park, along the Park 16 fence? 17 A: Yes, I took my daughters back down 18 into the Park and there was a lot of, probably activity 19 going on here and there, and cars coming and going. 20 And my daughters and I were actually along 21 some trees there, and I noticed that there were some 22 officers who had come up to the fence line, outside of 23 the Park, where that sandy parking area was, the sandy 24 parking area outside of the Park fence line. 25 And they were calling to people who were

1 riding by, they were saying, Hey, we want to talk to one 2 (1) of your leaders, and they kept saying that to people. 3 And people were -- just weren't paying attention to them, 4 they would just ride by and just disregard what they were 5 saying. 6 So, some vehicles hadn't gone by for some 7 time passing by there, so they -- I think they noticed me 8 standing there with the girls, so then they hollered at 9 me, We want to talk -- can -- we want to talk to one (1) 10 of your leaders. 11 So I said, Well, here they are and 12 motioned to my children, these are -- these are our 13 future leaders, so you can speak to one (1) of them if 14 you like. But they just kind of disregarded what I had 15 to say too, so... 16 Q: You mentioned earlier, Mrs. George, 17 that you were familiar with an Officer George Speck. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Was he among those individuals that 20 were attempting to speak to some of your leaders, I 21 think, as you put it? 22 A: No, he wasn't one (1) of the ones out 23 there that I noticed. 24 Q: Did you recognize any of those ones 25 that were out there?

1 A: Yes. There was a lady and then there 2 was a -- a man, he wasn't dressed -- he didn't have 3 uniform on, I recognized him as being Mark Wright. 4 Q: How did you recognize Mark Wright? 5 Had you know him from before? 6 A: No, I actually seen his picture 7 somewhere in a paper. That's how I recognized him. I 8 remember seeing his picture. 9 Q: Okay. And the female officer, was 10 she in uniform or not? 11 A: I kind of -- I -- I think she was in 12 uniform, but he wasn't, if I'm not mistaken, she was. 13 Q: Did you recognize her? 14 A: No. No, I just later knew -- later 15 we did a -- I don't know if I seen her on the news or 16 somewhere, but then her name was mentioned later on at a 17 later date and then I recognized her from photographs 18 later, or on a news -- news -- 19 Q: And you recognized her as whom? 20 A: Eve -- I think her name was Eve, I 21 don't know. 22 Q: Do you recall what time of day that - 23 - that this might have been, where the police officers 24 you've described were attempting to talk to...? 25 A: It was probably late afternoon,

1 because the sun was above -- just above the trees, facing 2 the west. 3 Q: Do you know if they were successful 4 in speaking to anybody? 5 A: I don't think they were. I don't 6 think -- people just rode by and said stuff to them and I 7 -- I don't think they were successful in actually talking 8 to anybody. 9 Q: Okay. Do you know at all, Mrs. 10 George, what it was that they wanted to talk about? 11 A: No. I don't ever recall hearing them 12 say what they wanted to talk about. 13 Q: Okay. At various times during the 14 day, we were told that there were young people, children 15 primarily, who were doing things like shining mirrors, 16 that is, reflecting the sun's light on mirrors into the 17 police officers that were outside of the Park. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Is there anything that you can tell 20 us about that? 21 A: Well, I think the children didn't 22 like the fact that these police -- officers were there 23 and they were -- kept calling and saying, let us talk to 24 your leader. One of them said to them, why don't you go 25 away and chase some real criminals and leave us alone.

1 Like why are you bothering us? 2 So pretty soon one (1) of the kids had 3 this little mirror and realized that it was going to 4 reflect the sun. So they decided they would go and get 5 some of the mirrors out of one (1) of the washrooms and 6 they would probably like to intimidate those officers who 7 were at the fence trying to get somebody to come to the 8 fence line. 9 So they decided they would flash the 10 mirrors into their eyes. 11 Q: All right. Aside from the officers 12 that were outside of the fence, did you see or recognize 13 whether or not there were any on the water? 14 A: Actually, I did notice a OPP boat out 15 on the water, because -- 16 Q: Yeah? 17 A: -- my -- my children wanted to go for 18 a swim and they were out and we noticed the boat was out 19 there, and it was quite close, actually. 20 Q: And how did know it was OPP? 21 A: Because that's what it said on it. 22 Q: All right. Did you stay in the Park 23 that night, Mrs. George? 24 A: No. 25 Q: All right. Did you have any

1 expectations, Mrs. George, as to what would happen on 2 that particular day? 3 A: No. No, I didn't think anything 4 would happen. I didn't -- I just think they were there 5 because they didn't like the fact that we were in the 6 Park and I don't know what they were trying to do, 7 whether they were watching to see if anybody was going to 8 do anything or come -- come outside of there so they 9 could arrest them for whatever reason. I don't know. 10 Q: Can you tell us at all why there was 11 no-one from inside of the Park that was willing to speak 12 to the police? 13 A: Because it wasn't -- why would they 14 want to speak to the police? Because this didn't have to 15 -- this didn't have anything to do with the police. It 16 had to do with the government taking and selling that 17 Park -- those Park lands and why wasn't the government 18 there to talk to these people? 19 That was the faction that they should be 20 talking to, not the police. What were the police going 21 to do? They weren't going to resolve it. So it was kind 22 of pointless to talk to them. 23 Q: That was the sentiment inside the 24 Park, was it? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Okay. Do you know whether there was 2 anybody from government that was prepared to come to or, 3 in fact came, to speak to the people inside the Park? 4 A: I don't think there was anybody from 5 the government that was -- came there or -- or was 6 willing to come and speak to the people there. 7 Q: When you say "the government", is 8 there anybody in particular that you refer to? Or -- 9 A: Well, I think because Indian Affairs 10 was involved in that, they should have -- they should 11 have came there and intervened. Somebody should have 12 came and -- and talked. 13 Because now they wanted to talk all those 14 years and now when the people have their land back, 15 nobody wanted to come and talk. They just wanted to come 16 and physically remove, was what my feelings were. 17 Q: All right. Mrs. George, I expect 18 that we may hear some evidence that in fact on the 6th of 19 September, the following day, there in fact was an 20 individual from the Federal Government, by the last name 21 of French. 22 Do you -- does that -- is that at all 23 recognisable to you? 24 A: No. I don't recognize that name. 25 Q: Are you aware of whether or not there

1 was anybody from the Federal Government that came to the 2 -- to the -- either to the barracks or -- 3 A: I think -- 4 Q: -- indeed to the Park, to try to talk 5 to the people in the Park? 6 A: I think later we heard that there was 7 somebody who came but they didn't talk to everybody. 8 They went to a specific group of people within the Army 9 Camp and tried to get them to leave. 10 But I don't think anybody that I know, 11 like my husband or anybody that -- like that was spoken 12 to. 13 Q: When you say a specific group of 14 people were approached, did -- do you know who that -- 15 who is that you're referring to? 16 A: I think it was Maynard George's 17 family and I'm not sure who else. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: But I know that family was. 20 Q: Before we leave the -- the 5th of 21 September, Mrs. George, is there anything that's 22 remarkable about that day that stands out in your mind 23 that you can tell us about? 24 A: I -- I don't know. I can't remember. 25 Q: Okay. Then we can move then to

1 September the 6th of 1995. And I understand that on -- 2 on that day you were awoken early in the morning by one 3 Robert Isaac? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Can you tell us about that, please? 6 A: He came into our house and he was -- 7 he was pretty upset and said to my husband that he needs 8 to come down with him to the Park, right now, because the 9 -- the police were plowing into the picnic tables and one 10 (1) of the guys was sitting on it and they had gotten 11 knocked off the table and he didn't know if anybody was 12 going to be hurt by their actions. 13 So he thought they better have a little 14 bit more of our own people down there because there was 15 only a couple of them down there that -- that night who 16 were sitting around the fire and kind of keeping a vigil. 17 Q: Firstly, do you recall what time of 18 day it would have been that Mr. Isaac attended at your 19 residence? 20 A: It had to be between 7:00 and 8:00 in 21 the morning. It was -- it was pretty early. 22 Q: All right. And you've described it 23 as -- that he related something along the lines, the 24 police were plowing into tables. 25 Is that the words that you recall?

1 A: Well, he said they rammed the tables 2 with their cruisers, that they were sitting on. 3 Q: Okay. What happens at that point? 4 A: My husband got up and he went -- he 5 went down to the Park with Robert or followed him down. 6 Q: Okay. We've come to learn that 7 Robert Isaac has since passed away? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. Did you go to the Park 10 that day, Mrs. George? 11 A: Yeah, I probably did. Like I said, I 12 don't recall too much about the whole day, probably 13 because I had young girls to take care of, young children 14 to take care of and tending to them and -- I -- I 15 probably went down to the Park a couple of times that 16 day. I know I did and took some coffee and some 17 sandwiches or something down there. 18 Q: All right. Mrs. George, do you 19 recall speaking to the S.I.U., that is the Special 20 Investigations Unit -- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- on October the 12th of 1995? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And for the record, I -- I'm going to 25 be referring to Inquiry Document 1002276. And do you

1 recall giving -- giving a statement to the Special 2 Investigations Unit and describing to them that you had 3 gone to the Park at about -- between 9:30 and 10:30 that 4 morning and that you were followed by a helicopter? 5 A: Oh, yeah. 6 Q: Does that help you at all? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: What can you tell us about that, Mrs. 9 George? 10 A: I went down the dirt road and it was, 11 like, right above me all the way down. 12 Q: When you describe the dirt road, this 13 would be the dirt road inside the Park, adjacent to Army 14 Camp Road, you've told us about earlier? 15 A: Yes. And I just thought it was 16 strange that they would follow me down that road. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Or I don't know if they were 19 following me or they were -- it seemed like they were 20 because they were right above the car all the time that I 21 travelled down the road. 22 Q: You've described when you had 23 observed a helicopter earlier while in the Park, that you 24 were able to make out individuals within the helicopter 25 and describe their actions.

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Were you able to on this occasion? 3 A: No, I had to pay more attention to my 4 driving because my children were in the car with me, so 5 if I was paying a lot of attention to the helicopter I 6 probably would have smashed up, but I knew there above me 7 on that road. 8 Q: Okay. As you got to the Park, did 9 you notice anything different on that day from days 10 previous? 11 A: It's really -- I don't -- I don't 12 know. I think there was, like, more of a -- more tension 13 among our own people because of what the police had done 14 earlier that day. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: It was more of a -- I guess maybe 17 they were more apprehensive, they didn't know what was 18 going to happen. 19 Q: All right. How did you feel about 20 that given the perceptible increase in tension? 21 A: I just kind of -- I don't know what I 22 thought. I didn't want to think there was anything bad 23 going to happen. I could just -- because we weren't 24 doing anything -- doing anything to -- to make them want 25 to -- I don't think anything was really done to make them

1 want to come up and ram the picnic tables. It was just 2 that these -- they were there having their fire and 3 sitting and keeping a vigil. 4 And I don't know whether words were 5 exchanged or what it was, but I'm sure there wasn't any 6 violent actions taken to make them want to do something 7 like that. 8 Q: You've described for us, on the day 9 previous, that there were numerous checkpoints, I think 10 you've described three (3), perhaps four (4) checkpoints 11 along Army Camp Road. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Did you note those, on this day, this 14 is the 6th? 15 A: I think they were still there. I'm - 16 Q: And can you tell us whether there was 17 more officers in terms of the previous days? 18 A: I think there was more. I think I 19 did notice that there were more -- more officers out on 20 the roadway. 21 Q: And at the Park, you had, in your 22 statement to the Special Investigations Unit, on the 12th 23 of October, 1995, described the positioning of tents and 24 concrete blocks around the Park border, that people in 25 the Park were carrying sticks.

1 Does that at all help you, in terms of 2 recalling what you might have observed, when you went 3 back to the Park? 4 A: Well, I think they probably were, I 5 don't know, I -- at this point, I can't recall that. 6 Like, I know there's concrete blocks there and a few 7 tents that were up, but -- 8 Q: Dealing with the concrete blocks 9 first of all, do you know how they would have got there? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. And the tents that you seen? 12 What can you tell us about that? 13 A: I don't know. I -- at this point, I 14 -- I don't remember that part. 15 Q: Okay. And that -- and that's fair 16 enough. We understand, from your sister-in-law, Tina 17 George, that you spent a period of time visiting with 18 her, that she was at the maintenance shed? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. Can you tell us about that, 21 how long you were there, what would have been going on? 22 A: Well, because she had small children 23 too, she had two (2) little girls and I decided I would 24 just stop there and visit with her before going back down 25 to the Park again.

1 And we were sitting outside of the 2 maintenance shed and the roadway runs right -- right 3 beside there, the entrance that everybody was using to go 4 down to the Park, was there -- was through there, and we 5 were just kind of sitting around outside and the girls 6 were playing. 7 And then we noticed a vehicle pulled up 8 and he said, hey, there's -- Mike Cloud was in the 9 vehicle and he said, hey guys, he said, something's going 10 on. It was starting to get later in the evening. 11 He says, there's something going on 12 because, he said that his mother had tried to come to 13 Stoney Point and she actually made it in, I think she 14 walked across the field, and the -- she said the police 15 weren't allowing anybody to leave or anybody to -- 16 anybody new to enter into the Stoney Point -- into built- 17 up area -- 18 Q: All right. 19 A: -- the entrance. 20 Q: When you say Mike Cloud told you 21 this, he said his mother had made it in? 22 A: Yes, Marlene Cloud. 23 Q: All right. And just before we leave 24 the maintenance area, we're also told that there were 25 some gas pumps there and that -- that there was gas in

1 those -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- in the tanks? 4 A: Yes. There was a -- I guess it was 5 for Park maintenance or something, I don't know, but I -- 6 I know there was a gas pump there and there was gas still 7 in the tank. I know, because people were filling up 8 their vehicles with gas there. 9 Q: All right. Aside from vehicles, did 10 you notice whether any -- anything else was filled up, by 11 way of containers or? 12 A: No. All I knew was that vehicles 13 were being filled with gas there. 14 Q: Okay. Given the advice that was 15 given by Mike Cloud, to the effect that no one was being 16 allowed in or out of the -- the Stoney Point -- out of 17 the -- the built-up area, what, if anything, did you do? 18 A: It was a concern for me because I had 19 to -- I was supposed to be on shift at midnight that 20 night, and that was down in Kettle Point. 21 So I got on the phone, that was in the 22 maintenance shed, and my sister-in-law, Veril (phonetic), 23 she was on shift that evening until midnight and I told 24 her what I had just been told. 25 And she said, why, what's going on? And I

1 said I don't know. That's -- that's all I know. So if I 2 try to leave here, then I'm sure I'm going to be turned 3 back. So I might -- I may as well not even try. 4 An