1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 January 20th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )    (np)     Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  
  7  Murray Klippenstein )  (np)      The Estate of Dudley 
  8  Vilko Zbogar       )            George and George
  9  Andrew Orkin       )   (np)     Family Group
 10  Basil Alexander    )  (np)      Student-at-Law
 11  
 12  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 13  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 14  
 15  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 16  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena
 17                                   (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )   (np)       Kettle Point & Stony
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Sue Freeborn     )   (np)
 25  Maureen Smith    )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (Np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 11  
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  
 15  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) (np)      Marcel Beaubien
 16  Trevor Hinnegan     ) 
 17  
 18  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 19  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 20  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 21  
 22  Ian Roland       )              Ontario Provincial 
 23  Annie Leeks      )              Police Association &
 24  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 25  Ian McGilp       )

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  
  7  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
  8  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
  9  
 10  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 11  Matthew Horner   )
 12  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 13  
 14  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 15  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 16  Megan Mackey     )
 17  
 18  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 19  Anna Perschy     )
 20  Melissa Panjer   )   (np)
 21  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 22  
 23  
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 TINA RENE GEORGE; Resumed 6 Continued Cross-Examination by Ms. Susan Vella 8 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Vilko Zbogar 31 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 37 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 48 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian McGilp 59 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 114 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Trevor Hinnegan 121 13 14 HARLEY IAN GEORGE; Sworn 15 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Katherine Hensel 128 16 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 196 17 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 200 18 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 247 19 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 251 20 21 22 Certificate of Transcript 254 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-132 April 15/96 Letter to 25 4 Ms. E. Thunder, Band 5 Administrator, Chippewas 6 of Kettle & Stony Point from 7 Shari Cunningham, Area Manager, 8 Windsor, Ministry of Community 9 and Social Services; and Letter 10 Dated May 01/96 to Tina R. George 11 from E. Thunder, Band Administrator 12 and A. David Henry, Social Services 13 Administrator, Kettle & Stony 14 Point Council 15 P-133 Document 1010734, January 24/96 29 16 Stoney Point Negotiations Team 17 Meeting Minutes. 18 P-134 Excerpt from Maintenance Shed 70 19 DVD 9-07-95 O:56:06 to 0:56:09 20 P-135 Document 1003031 Photographs 90 21 Taken by Ronald Taylor Aug 31/95 22 and Document 1002327 Jan 26/96 23 Statement from Ronald Taylor to SIU 24 25

1 LIST OF EXHIBITS, (Cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No 3 P-136 Document 1002409 Page 13 Map 141 4 of Ipperwash Military Reserve 5 Marked by Witness Mr. Harley 6 George, Jan 20/05 7 P-137 Document 2002436, Page 35, 150 8 Schematic Diagram of Camp 9 Ipperwash Military Barracks 10 Marked by Witness Harley George, 11 Jan 20/05 12 P-138 "Stan" Thompson Drawing, 246 13 Sept 20/95, Marked by Witness 14 Harley George, January 20/051 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:01 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, everybody. Good morning. Yes, Ms. -- 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning. Good 9 morning, Ms. George. 10 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 11 12 TINA RENE GEORGE, RESUMED 13 14 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: I understand that you wish to clarify 16 part of your testimony that you gave yesterday? 17 A: Yes, I do. 18 Q: Can you please advise the Commission? 19 A: I'd like to change my testimony from 20 about when the target practising took place. 21 Q: Proceed? Just proceed. 22 A: I am positive that it did not happen 23 on Monday, September 4th, 1995. I am positive that it 24 did not happen on Tuesday, September 5th of 1995, and I 25 am positive that it did not happen on Wednesday,

1 September 1995 and that it possibly happened sometime 2 after the fact when Dudley George was shot. 3 Q: Ms. George, when did you realize your 4 error? 5 A: While I was trying to go to sleep 6 last night and after I watched the news report on TV. 7 Q: Which news report was that? 8 A: On the New PL. 9 Q: And what in the news report caused 10 you concern? 11 A: It -- it led me to believe that it 12 took place on the night of September 5th before Dudley 13 was shot. 14 Q: Now, you were very clear with us 15 yesterday with respect to the date of the target 16 practising. And you'll recall that I was taking you 17 through your evidence on a day-by-day basis and we were 18 discussing the events of Tuesday, September the 6th. We 19 had not got to the events of the 7th and I have not asked 20 you any questions concerning events after September the 21 7th. 22 How is it that you can be so certain that 23 these events did not happen on Tuesday, September the 24 5th, as you testified yesterday? 25 A: Because I'm certain that I did not

1 see guns before Dudley George was shot. 2 Q: Ms. George, did you have any 3 conversations with anyone last night concerning your 4 recollection of the target practice incident? 5 A: Conversations? 6 Q: Yes, who did you talk to last night 7 about this? 8 A: I talked to my son. 9 Q: Dale Plain? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And did he advise you that you had 12 made an error? 13 A: Along that line. 14 Q: And who else did you speak with? 15 A: My lawyer. 16 Q: Okay. Did you speak to Marlin Simon? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Did you speak with Russ Jewel? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did you speak with other members at 21 Aazhoodena last night or this morning about your -- your 22 recollection? 23 A: My recollection? I -- I spoke with 24 Marg George this morning and expressed that I was upset 25 because it's hard to -- it's hard to recollect ten (10)

1 years prior to what you did on a certain night and a 2 person can very well be mixed up on their dates. 3 Q: You were very clear yesterday that -- 4 as to the sequence of events, namely that you left the 5 maintenance building which you had been occupying with 6 Russ Jewel. Do you agree with that? 7 A: That I left the maintenance building 8 with Russ Jewel? 9 Q: That's right. You said you -- 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: -- left the building and that you 12 took his dark blue Satellite car. And that on the way up 13 to the barracks he suggested that -- that he would go 14 find Marlin Simon and there would be some -- for -- for 15 target practising. 16 And that the -- that you find Marlin Simon 17 and went to the bush by the inland lakes in the Military 18 Base. And that approximately somewhere around ten (10) 19 or certainly over one (1) and up to ten (10) shots were 20 fired with one (1) long-barrelled single-barrelled rifle. 21 A: Did I say up to five (5)? 22 Q: I don't believe you said up to five 23 (5). I believe you said no more than ten (10) more than 24 one (1), but in any event; do you recall that -- that 25 evidence?

1 A: Yesterday? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: And do you agree that the sequence of 5 events are still accurate? 6 A: As to target practising on -- 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: -- on that Tuesday night? 9 Q: No, leave the date aside, just -- you 10 were there. Leave the date aside for a moment. Do you 11 agree that what I said is what happened? 12 A: Not on Tuesday or the Monday or the 13 Wednesday. 14 Q: I appreciate that that's your 15 evidence, but do you agree that that's the way it 16 happened, whether it was on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday or 17 after September the 6th, is that the way it happened? 18 A: I'm not really sure if we came from 19 the maintenance building. We could have been riding 20 around, like, ten (10) years is a long time. 21 Q: And you were -- when did you leave 22 the maintenance building? 23 A: On which day? 24 Q: Approximately when did you move out 25 of the maintenance building?

1 A: It would either be March or May of 2 1996. 3 Q: Ms. George, is it fair to say that 4 you felt that -- that you -- you came under pressure last 5 night because you realized that your evidence could be 6 damaging? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And that that's the reason why you 9 have changed your evidence today? 10 A: It could be damaging through the news 11 media. Half the time the news media doesn't print what 12 is right. 13 Q: Well, with respect to that part of 14 your evidence, the news media was correct. 15 Now, what I'm suggesting to you is that 16 the reason why you have changed your evidence is not 17 because -- that it was in error yesterday, but rather 18 because you came under pressure to change your evidence. 19 A: Under pressure from myself because I 20 never came across any guns on that Monday, that Tuesday, 21 or that Wednesday before Dudley George was shot. 22 Q: How can you be so certain of that 23 now? 24 A: There was no way I would take my kids 25 out after twelve o'clock to do some goddamned target

1 practising, at any time. 2 Q: Yesterday you suggested that your 3 child was with you in the car, I believe? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And now you're changing that part of 6 your evidence? 7 A: I'm not changing whether my children 8 were there, I said I can't be sure if one (1) of them 9 were there or both of them. 10 Q: All right. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Ms. George, I'm going to suggest to 15 you that, in fact, the way that you told -- gave your 16 evidence yesterday was correct and that this event took 17 place on Tuesday, September the 5th. 18 A: I'm going to have to disagree with 19 that. 20 Q: I'd like to move on with your 21 evidence, then. Yesterday we attempted to show an 22 excerpt from a surveillance tape that was taken on 23 September the 6th, 1995, and I have switched machines. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And I would like to show you that

1 segment again and I would like to show you a longer 2 segment to ask you to confirm your -- confirm your 3 evidence and to ask you some further questions about that 4 tape. 5 And for the record, this is Exhibit P-130. 6 And we're showing the frame and there's a woman who goes 7 by there and a man. Now, the -- I've stopped it at the 8 02:51:42. Do you agree that that person is Russ Jewel? 9 10 (VIDEO PLAYING) 11 12 A: Yes, I do agree. 13 Q: All right. And just prior to that 14 frame there was a woman who walked back and forth and you 15 said yesterday it was either yourself or Gina George. 16 A: I said it looked like me or Gina 17 George. 18 Q: All right. And I'd like to continue 19 with this video -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: -- because that person comes through 22 the -- the image again. Does that assist you? 23 A: That is not a clear picture. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: No. I can -- no, it does -- no.

1 Q: I'll continue with it, then. 2 A: It's got to be clearer than that in 3 order for me to say that is me. 4 Q: Would you please have a look at the 5 screen? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me, 7 have you got a good angle to see that, or would you like 8 to move over where you can see it a little better? 9 THE WITNESS: I can -- I can see that -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You can see 11 better from where you are? 12 THE WITNESS: -- better through the TV 13 than -- better than on here. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: What I'm going to do is 15 fast forward this. I've started it from the beginning. 16 It's 21:10:29. What I've done is I've fast -- I'm fast 17 forwarding it, Commissioner, to get back to the place 18 where I was. 19 20 (VIDEO PLAYING) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: Would you look at this person, 24 please? I've stopped it at 22:19:26, I think. 25

1 (VIDEO PLAYING) 2 3 Q: Did you recognize that woman? 4 A: Yeah, I think that's me. 5 Q: Thank you. I've stopped the tape at 6 22:20:14 and the last series of frames has been 7 identified as Tina George. 8 I'm sorry, quite right. I said a.m., of 9 course it's p.m. Excuse me. 10 11 (VIDEO PLAYING) 12 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just for the record, 14 I'm continuing to fast forward the DVD. 15 16 (VIDEO PLAYING) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: Stop the video at 00:32:35. Do you 20 recognize those two (2) women? 21 A: 00:32? 22 Q: It might be 01:32 a.m., I'll clarify 23 that when I proceed. 24 A: That one I don't recognize. 25 Q: All right. Do you recognize the

1 activity? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: I'll continue to run it. And, yes, I 6 believe that is 1:32 a.m. 7 8 (VIDEO PLAYING) 9 10 A: It looks like somebody -- one's make 11 -- they're making sandwiches. 12 Q: And sometimes people come over to 13 make sandwiches in the maintenance building? 14 A: Yeah, it's the closest place. My 15 home -- that place was never locked. Only when I'm on 16 the inside. But if I went away, it was never locked. 17 Q: All right. I'll -- going to proceed 18 to fast forward this. 19 A: Yeah, she's eating. 20 21 (VIDEO PLAYING) 22 23 A: Yeah, those are sandwiches. 24 Q: Those are sandwiches? 25 A: Yeah, there's -- they -- they are

1 sandwiches. She's putting them in a plastic bag. 2 3 (VIDEO PLAYING) 4 5 Q: All right, I've slowed it down again. 6 It's 22:20 p.m. and that's the image that you had just 7 previously identified as yourself in there? 8 A: Yeah. 9 10 (VIDEO PLAYING) 11 12 A: Yeah. 13 14 (VIDEO PLAYING) 15 16 Q: All right, now we're -- I've stopped 17 it at 2:50:26. We're going to proceed from that point. 18 It's September the 6th, 1995 and please look at the 19 screen. 20 21 (VIDEO PLAYING) 22 23 Q: Now we've just seen a woman pass by 24 through the frame and now we're at 2:51:40, and we see 25 the -- a man pass her. You've identified the man as Russ

1 Jewel. Are you able now to identify the woman who was 2 there? 3 A: No. That camera is too blurry. 4 Q: I'm playing the video further, to see 5 if that will assist you. 6 A: I -- I see on the side of her that 7 she has somewhat of shorter hair here, but... 8 Q: Yeah. 9 10 (VIDEO PLAYING) 11 12 Q: I'm just going to conclude the -- it 13 ends at 3:01 in the morning, so we'll just play this 14 through. 15 16 (VIDEO PLAYING) 17 18 Q: All right, that's the conclusion of 19 the -- this -- this DVD video. Ms. George, I'm going to 20 suggest to you that the person who immediately proceeded 21 Russ Jewel was yourself based on the clothing, the same 22 shorts, the same tee shirt, the long hair. Do you agree? 23 A: I still say that's too fuzzy for me 24 to agree. 25 Q: All right. Fair enough. Now, at

1 some point in time did you find out that you had been 2 recorded on police surveillance tapes in the maintenance 3 building? 4 A: Yes, I did find that out. 5 Q: And when did you find that out? 6 A: September 14th, the year 2003. 7 Q: From whom did you find out about 8 these tapes? 9 A: From Lynette Fortune. She's the 10 executive producer of the Fifth Estate or -- yeah, the 11 Fifth Estate. 12 Q: All right. And did you learn how 13 long a video cam -- the surveillance camera had been 14 operating in the maintenance building? 15 A: Through Peter Edwards' newspaper 16 report of March 27th, 2004 -- through his newspaper 17 report I learned that the tape was running for -- in his 18 newspaper thing, I'm pretty sure it says thirty (30) 19 days. 20 Q: Now what was -- did you have an 21 opportunity to review any of the video tape footage? 22 A: Not video tape. I've had opportunity 23 to view a couple of pictures, a side view shot of myself 24 with no top on and shorts and the -- the picture that 25 Peter Edwards had in the newspaper when I first seen

1 that, I thought it looked like Gina Tessier (phonetic). 2 Then again, it looks like myself. And I still have doubts 3 as to if it is Gina Tessier in that specific picture. 4 Q: Now what was your reaction when you 5 learned that there had been a surveillance camera 6 operating in the maintenance building? 7 A: I was stunned. I was surprised and I 8 was shocked. I really would have liked to swore at that 9 time, but I didn't want to swear in front of Lynette. 10 Q: Okay. And why were you so angry? 11 A: Why? 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: For one (1) thing I never asked for 14 it. Why I was so angry? I don't like people taking 15 pictures of me when I don't know. That's like somebody 16 standing out in the dark looking in your windows at 17 night. 18 Q: And prior to Lynette Fortune advising 19 you of the existence of these cameras, had you any idea 20 that there were surveillance cameras in the maintenance 21 building? 22 A: No, I did not. 23 Q: In 1995/96, what was your main source 24 of income? 25 A: I was a single mother, living on

1 welfare. 2 Q: Who administered the welfare to you? 3 A: Lambton County. On -- there was a 4 few months there that Kettle Point did. 5 Q: And did you continue to receive 6 social assistance throughout 1996? 7 A: Yes, if I can recall correctly, I 8 did. 9 Q: I'd like to show you a document. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: I'm showing to you, a letter dated 14 April 15, 1996, addressed to Ms. Elizabeth Thunder, Band 15 Administrator, Chippewas of Kettle and Stony Point -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: From Sherry Cunningham, area manager, 18 Windsor Area Office, Ministry of Community and Social 19 Services. And also a Notice dated May 1, 1996 on Kettle 20 and Stony Point Council letterhead addressed to yourself 21 and signed -- it appears to be signed by Elizabeth 22 Thunder and David Henry. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Did you receive this Notice and 25 letter?

1 A: Pardon? 2 Q: Did you receive this Notice and 3 letter? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: And do you recall why you received 6 this letter and Notice? 7 A: Because they said that they weren't 8 able to help us at the social assistance building in 9 Kettle Point and that we -- I would have to go to the 10 County of Lambton. 11 Q: And what was your reaction when you 12 received this notification from Kettle and Stony Point 13 Council? 14 A: My reaction? 15 Q: Yes 16 A: I can't -- I can't remember what my 17 reaction was, but. 18 Q: Did you take any steps to address the 19 situation? 20 A: With who? 21 Q: With anyone? With the Band Council 22 or the government? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Did -- did your social assistance 25 resume?

1 A: Through the County of Lambton. 2 Q: And when did it resume? 3 A: By this letter, he said he was only 4 going to support me for May, so it would have to resume 5 in June. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: With the County of Lambton. 8 Q: I'd like to make that the next 9 exhibit, please. The Notice from Kettle and Stony Point 10 Council dated May 1, 1996, enclosing a letter from the 11 Ministry of Community and Social Services dated April 15, 12 1996. 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-132. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-132: April 15/96 Letter to 16 Ms. E. Thunder, Band 17 Administrator, Chippewas 18 of Kettle & Stony Point from 19 Shari Cunningham, Area Manager, 20 Windsor, Ministry of Community 21 and Social Services; and Letter 22 Dated May 01/96 to Tina R. George 23 from E. Thunder, Band Administrator 24 and A. David Henry, Social Services 25 Administrator, Kettle & Stony

1 Point Council 2 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr Registrar, can you 4 put the witness brief before the Witness, please? It was 5 on the table. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 10 Q: I'm showing you a document. It's 11 Inquiry Document Number 1010734. It's found at Tab 4 of 12 the brief. And it appears to be minutes of a meeting 13 dated January 24, 1996 and there are various attendees at 14 this meeting, Liz Thunder, Yellow Fox, Greg George, Tina 15 George, Brent, Judas, Mike Cloud, Worm, Marlene Cloud, 16 and others. 17 Do you recall attending at this meeting? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: So tell me what the -- the purpose of 20 this meeting was? 21 A: It was a Stoney Point -- Kettle and 22 Stony Point negotiations meeting. 23 Q: And what was the negotiation about? 24 A: No specific reason. 25 Q: What was being discussed at this

1 meeting? 2 A: Various things. 3 Q: All right. Was one (1) of the things 4 that you were discussing the returns of -- of the Camp 5 Ipperwash and Provincial Park lands? 6 A: I believe so. 7 Q: And these were discussions that 8 members from the Stoney Point group were having with the 9 Band Council? 10 A: I don't think the whole Band Council 11 was there. 12 Q: All right. But it was with Kettle 13 and Stony Point? 14 A: People from Kettle Point and Stoney 15 Point. 16 Q: And can you tell me what came of 17 these negotiations and how long they -- they continued 18 for? 19 A: Nothing really comes of these 20 negotiations and they -- they're still trying to continue 21 it today. 22 Q: All right. Now, is Worm, Stewart 23 George, as identified in this -- these minutes? 24 A: Is Worm Stewart George? 25 Q: Yes. I'm just trying to --

1 A: Yes, yes. 2 Q: -- understand. There's some -- some 3 nicknames here. I just want to verify the people who 4 were at this meeting. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And Judas would be Roderick 7 George? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. And who is Yellow Fox? 10 A: That's Robert Isaac. 11 Q: Robert Isaac? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And Brent or Ben? 14 A: Ben Pouget. 15 Q: Okay. And who is Victor Gulewitsch? 16 A: Some guy, I recall he's supposed to 17 be some researcher for the Kettle Point Band. 18 Q: All right. Thank you. And do you 19 recall a Paul Henry? 20 A: Vaguely. 21 Q: Do you know who he was or who he -- 22 A: I know who he is, yes. 23 Q: Who -- what was his role at this 24 meeting? 25 A: I'm not sure.

1 Q: Fair enough. I'd like to make that 2 the next exhibit. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-133. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-133: Document 1010734, January 6 24/96 7 Stoney Point Negotiations Team 8 Meeting Minutes. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: And you described yesterday, the 12 evening of September the 6th, 1995 and -- and your 13 experience there. Can you tell me what, if any, impact 14 this event has had on you? 15 A: What impact? 16 Q: Impact that the shooting of Dudley 17 George, the injuries to Nicholas Cotrelle? 18 A: It makes me fucking mad. 19 Q: And why is that? 20 A: Do you see my cousin, Dudley, sitting 21 around here? No. 22 Q: Okay. What do you think should 23 happen to the Park and Camp Ipperwash now? 24 A: What do I think should be happening? 25 Q: Yes.

1 A: It should be left alone. 2 Q: Left alone meaning that the status 3 quo should be preserved? 4 A: It should be left alone. 5 Q: What do you mean by that? 6 A: It should be given back to the people 7 and not bothered with. 8 Q: Thank you. Those conclude my 9 questions. Thank you, Ms. George. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. Who 11 has intention to cross-examine the Witness? Please stand 12 up. Let's go through it then as we do. Yes, sir, how 13 long do you anticipate? 14 MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: Probably twenty (20) 15 or thirty (30) minutes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Twenty (20) 17 or thirty (30) minutes? Are you marking this down? 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yeah. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And you 20 have -- 21 MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: Five (5) to ten (10) 22 minutes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) to 24 ten (10) minutes? Any other aboriginal Parties? No? 25 Yes, Ms. Tuck-Jackson?

1 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Approximately 2 ten (10) minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ten (10) 4 minutes? Mr. McGilp...? 5 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thirty (30) to forty 6 (40) minutes. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 8 McAleer...? 9 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Probably ten (10) 10 to fifteen (15). 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, sir? 12 MR. TREVOR HINNEGAN: About five (5) 13 minutes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 15 should get right on with it. 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. VILKO ZBOGAR: 21 Q: Good morning, Ms. George. My name is 22 Vilko Zbogar. I'm one (1) of the lawyers for the Estate 23 and Family of Dudley George. 24 Yesterday you were shown a photo or -- and 25 this morning as well, you were shown a photo and a video

1 of Russ Jewel in the maintenance shed at 2:51 a.m. 2 holding something in his left hand. Do you know what he 3 was holding? 4 A: Not exactly. 5 Q: Would you agree that since it was the 6 middle of the night, it might have been a flashlight? 7 A: It may have been a flashlight, yes. 8 Q: Yesterday you referred to a female 9 OPP officer named Eve or Eves who was pointing a gun at 10 you while you were holding your daughter on September 11 7th, 1995. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: I expect we will hear evidence that 14 an OPP Sergeant named Marg Eve, was involved at Ipperwash 15 at the time. Does that name, Marg Eve or Margaret Eve, 16 sound familiar? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Is that the person who was pointing a 19 gun at you on September 7th while you were holding your 20 daughter? 21 A: I'm pretty sure. 22 Q: Yesterday, you also said there -- 23 that you thought there was a Sagamuk police car in the 24 Park on the Tuesday or the Wednesday just before the 25 shooting of Dudley. Is that right?

1 A: If I can recall correctly -- if I can 2 recall correctly. 3 Q: Okay. Now, so far, no other 4 witnesses have said that they saw a Sagamuk police car at 5 the Park before Dudley was shot, however, we do expect 6 that there will be witnesses that will say that First 7 Nations Police from around the province came to Ipperwash 8 to help after Dudley's shooting. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Now, this was many years ago so is it 11 possible that your memory was mistaken in that -- about 12 the date on which you saw the Sagamuk car? 13 A: Oh yes, it's possible. Ten (10) 14 years is a long time. 15 Q: It's possible that that car would 16 have only been in the Park after the shooting of Dudley 17 George? 18 A: It's possible. 19 Q: You talked about your daughters, 20 Phoebe and Jule, who were about two (2) and a half and 21 five (5) and a half at the time of September 1995. Now, 22 I imagine you would never do anything to put them in the 23 way of danger? 24 A: Heavens, no. 25 Q: Prior to Dudley's shooting, would you

1 agree that there was nothing that any of the Occupiers 2 were doing inside the Park that would give you reason to 3 fear for the safety of your daughters? Would you -- 4 A: They were -- 5 Q: Would you agree that there was 6 nothing to give you cause for fear? 7 A: Yes, I would agree to that. 8 Q: And, in particular, to your knowledge 9 there were no guns inside the Park and no intention to -- 10 to -- of the Occupiers to initiate any kind of violence? 11 A: Yes, that is true. 12 Q: We've heard evidence from other 13 witnesses about a treaty in 1928. Sorry, we've heard 14 evidence from other witnesses about a treaty between your 15 people and the Government about the original Stoney Point 16 Reserve, that was guaranteed by the treaty, and about an 17 alleged surrender of reserve lands in 1928. 18 I want to ask you some questions about 19 whether those things were ever mentioned by the police 20 and -- and others and you mentioned several occasions in 21 which you saw -- several occasions in the days leading up 22 to the shooting of Dudley in which you saw encounters 23 with members of the OPP or others. 24 I want to ask you, before the shooting, 25 did any police officer say or do anything at any time,

1 that suggested to you, that he or she might be aware of 2 the treaty between your people and the Government? 3 A: Did any police officer give me that 4 impression that they were aware of a 1928 treaty? 5 Q: That's the question, yes. 6 A: Any police officer give me -- 7 Q: Did -- did any -- anything that any 8 police officer say or do in the days before the shooting, 9 give you the impression that they knew about the treaty? 10 A: No, I didn't talk to no police as far 11 as I can remember. 12 Q: And in any of the -- you said you saw 13 the police talking to other people, from time to time? 14 A: Yeah, I recall -- 15 Q: There was an incident with Dudley on 16 the beach. There was -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- on the 4th, when you went into the 19 Park, there were police there that you saw. During any 20 of those incidents did -- did anything that any police 21 officer say or -- anything that any police officer said 22 or did give you the impression that they were aware of 23 that treaty? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Prior to the shooting, did any police

1 officer say or do anything that suggested to you that he 2 or she might be aware that the Ipperwash parklands were 3 part of the original Stoney Point Reserve, that was 4 guaranteed to your people? 5 A: I never got no impression like that 6 of any officer. 7 Q: And did you get any impression prior 8 to the shooting that any -- well, prior to the shooting, 9 did any police officer refer to the 1928 Surrender as a 10 reason for your People not being allowed to be in the 11 Park? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Prior to the shooting did any police 14 officer ever make any reference to any reason why the 15 original Reserve should no longer be considered to be 16 part of your Reserve? 17 A: I never got no impression off of no 18 police officers. 19 Q: And did -- I think you said you saw 20 Mr. Kobayashi speaking with some of the -- some of your 21 fellow occupiers of the Park. 22 Did you see any other Ministry of Natural 23 Resources or Parks officials of other government people, 24 in the days before the shooting of Dudley, or just Mr. 25 Kobayashi?

1 A: Did I see anyone else other than Les 2 Kobayashi attempting to make conversation with any of the 3 occupiers? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: Not that I can recall. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: Now, do you -- did you hear what Mr. 8 Kobayashi, at any time on the 4th or -- or 5th or 6th, 9 was saying to the people he was talking with, on that 10 occasion? 11 A: No. I was too far away to hear. 12 Q: Okay. Thank you. Those are my 13 questions. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 15 Esmonde...? 16 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 18 Q: Good morning, Ms. George. My name is 19 Jackie Esmonde and I'm one (1) of the lawyers 20 representing the Aazhoodena and George Family Group, 21 which includes some of the descendants of Dan and Melva 22 George. 23 You spoke to us yesterday about the Stoney 24 Point Negotiating Committee that you observed meeting at 25 -- as a teenager?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Did this committee have any kind of 3 formal relationship to the Kettle and Stony Point Band 4 Council? 5 A: A formal relationship? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: Not that I can recall. 8 Q: Was it recognized by the Kettle and 9 Stony Point Band Council? 10 A: I think so. 11 Q: And in what way was it recognized by 12 the Band Council? 13 A: I think that they knew that the 14 actual -- some of the actual descendants had enough of 15 their bullshit. 16 Q: Had enough of whose bullshit? 17 A: Kettle Point Council. 18 Q: Okay. And what do you mean by that? 19 A: People need to understand that most 20 people -- Stoney Point -- I will speak for myself. I 21 have no qualms with people on Kettle Point. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: It would be with the Band Council and 24 the Chief, at the time and until this day. 25 Q: Okay. And what was your concern

1 about the Band Council and the Chief? 2 A: My concern is that they don't have no 3 authority to speak for me or my father. 4 Q: And is that because you see the 5 Stoney Point Band, as separate? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that -- I think I understand from 8 you that you want the land returned to the Stoney Point 9 people. 10 A: Yes, that's where it should be. 11 Q: You don't want compensation for the 12 land, you want the land itself? 13 A: I want the land. You can't grow 14 potatoes and corn on money. The land is priceless. 15 Q: And that includes both the -- what 16 became the Park and what was the Army base? 17 A: And that's what I stated at that 18 January -- at this meeting here, but I don't see any 19 place in these papers where I said that the land is 20 priceless. 21 Q: Okay. And the papers you're 22 referring to are the minutes from the January 1996 -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- Stoney Point -- 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: -- meeting? Now, I think you also 2 said yesterday when you were speaking about your entry 3 into the Park on September 4th, that you called your 4 father? 5 A: Yes, I -- I did. 6 Q: So you called Mr. Abraham George 7 after the Park had been occupied? 8 A: Yes, I believe I called from the 9 store phone. 10 Q: And your father came to the Park? 11 A: Right away, quick. 12 Q: Okay. How old was your father at 13 that time? 14 A: Let's see. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: He would be approximately seventy 19 (70). 20 Q: And did you see him in the Park -- 21 A: Just wait. I'm thinking of my Mom's 22 birthrate. 23 Q: I don't need an exact date, just -- 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: -- if you could just approximate.

1 A: He would be a little over seventy 2 (70) then. 3 Q: Okay. And did you see him in the 4 Park in the days following? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Okay. I'd like to jump ahead to the 7 evening of September 6th, 1995, and you told us that Russ 8 Jewel came to you and told you that Dudley had been shot? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Did you hear any popping sounds or 11 anything that could have been gunfire, prior to that? 12 A: I was not outside. I was inside the 13 building. 14 Q: Okay. And then you went up to the 15 built-up area? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you told us yesterday that you 18 saw Marcia Simon and Melva George leaving the built-up 19 area to try and get an ambulance? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And I'd like to ask you some more 22 details about that event. We have heard from Marcia 23 Simon about what she said happened that evening. We 24 haven't heard from any police officers, but I understand 25 that some of them have a somewhat different version of

1 events than what Marcia Simon has testified to. 2 A: Well, I would imagine. 3 Q: Okay. Though they do seem to 4 contradict themselves as well. You saw her actually 5 leave at the gate, the main gate? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And do you know how she was following 8 the speed limit at that time? 9 A: I couldn't tell. 10 Q: You couldn't tell? 11 A: I think they -- she probably was 12 driving faster than normal in order to get an ambulance. 13 Q: Okay. But you couldn't tell? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Okay. Did you see her at the stop 16 sign? 17 A: I seen her turn left. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: The corner. 20 Q: Do you recall if she -- do you recall 21 seeing her stop, make a complete stop at that stop sign, 22 before turning? 23 A: I believe so. Maybe. 24 Q: Okay. And what is your memory of 25 whether there were cruisers at that corner, at the time

1 that she left? 2 A: Yeah, there was cruisers at that 3 corner, one (1) or two (2). I witnessed one (1) 4 following her. 5 Q: Okay. And can you tell me -- can you 6 tell me were those -- they were OPP cruisers? 7 A: They were white. 8 Q: Okay. Can you tell me where they 9 were at that intersection? Were they on the side of the 10 road? Were they -- where were they positioned? 11 A: I would say that they were right on 12 the road. 13 Q: Okay. And can you -- can you 14 identify where on the road they were? 15 A: On Highway 21 in -- right at Army 16 Camp. 17 Q: Okay. So they were on Highway 21. 18 Were they on the north or south side of Highway 21? 19 A: Were they on the north or the south 20 of Highway 21? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: Did I just say that they were right 23 on the road? 24 Q: I'm trying to -- which lane were they 25 in?

1 A: I have no idea. I'm about a quarter 2 of a mile down the road. 3 Q: Okay. Could you see any police 4 officers in the cruisers? 5 A: No. It was dark. 6 Q: And would you agree with me that they 7 weren't blocking the intersection? 8 A: Again. I was way down the road and I 9 can't see what part of the road that they are on. 10 Q: And you did see a cruiser follow her? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And it was one of the two (2) that 13 you had seen that you just described? 14 A: I believe so. Yes. 15 Q: Did you see any cruisers on Army Camp 16 Road driving south? 17 A: While I was standing there -- 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: -- at that particular time? 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Driving south as to coming towards 22 myself? 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: Not that I can recall. No. 25 Q: Did you see -- I understand that you

1 were some distance away, did you see any officers jump 2 out of the ditch with guns as they were leaving the 3 intersection? 4 A: When they were going to pursue 5 Marcia? 6 Q: When Marcia was turning at the 7 intersection of Highway 21 and Army Camp Road. 8 A: No. No, I didn't see. 9 Q: Okay. But you knew that Marcia Simon 10 and Melva George were -- had left to get ambulances to 11 help people who may have been hurt? 12 A: Most definitely. 13 Q: Now, you also observed, so you were 14 also in the car when Gina George went out to the 15 intersection to get an ambulance for her son? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Did you see her go out to the 18 intersection, prior to that? 19 A: I can't recall. 20 Q: Okay. Now, you believed at that time 21 that your nephew, Nicholas Cottrelle had been shot? 22 A: Yes. Gina could have went on the 23 inside to the corner but, then again, you'd have to ask 24 Gina George to be sure because I'm not Gina. 25 Q: Okay. I'm just -- I'm going to focus

1 on what you can remember, so I'm just going to ask you 2 about what happened when you went out with her? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: Now, did you -- you've told us that 5 you believe that Nicholas Cotrelle had been shot and did 6 you know that he had been wounded in the back? 7 A: Wounded someplace. 8 Q: Okay. Were you concerned about 9 moving him? 10 A: Somewhat. Yeah. 11 Q: Okay. And you described yesterday 12 what happened when you went out to the intersection. And 13 they -- you said that they wanted you to put your hands 14 in the air, that the police who you were speaking with 15 wanted you and Gina to put your hands in the air and they 16 had guns pointed at you; is that correct? 17 A: Yes, that's correct. 18 Q: And did they also want Nicholas 19 Cottrelle to get out of the car and put his hands in the 20 air? 21 A: I believe so. Yes. 22 Q: And can you recall how long you 23 waited for the ambulance attendant to come to the car? 24 A: From which -- 25 Q: Once you had reached the

1 intersection? 2 A: From the time that Gina, myself and 3 Nicholas -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- got to the Highway? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: And how long did the ambulance come? 8 Q: How long did it take before an 9 ambulance attendant was looking at Nicholas Cottrelle? 10 A: From the time he got there? 11 Q: With you? 12 A: From the time the ambulance attendant 13 arrived at the scene where we were, until he got to 14 Nicholas? Q: Okay. I'll rephrase my question to 15 try and be clearer. You went out to the intersection in 16 the car? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: From the time that you arrived at the 19 -- that you stopped at that intersection -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- what was the length of time 22 between that point and the point at which an ambulance 23 attendant was looking at Nicholas Cottrelle, in the car? 24 A: I can't really be specific. 25 Q: Okay. Was it more than five (5)

1 minutes? 2 A: I would say more than five (5) 3 minutes. Q: More than ten (10) minutes? 4 A: I don't know. 5 Q: Okay. And you -- you told us 6 yesterday that you could hear some people yelling at you 7 as well, and you heard the word "bitches"? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Did you -- do you remember somebody 10 yelling, You bitches get your hands up in the air? 11 A: Vaguely. 12 Q: Okay. Okay, and you were to keep 13 your hands in the air the whole time that you were -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Thank you very much, those are 16 all of my questions. 17 A: You're welcome. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 22 Q: Ms. George, my name is Andrea Tuck- 23 Jackson, and I'm here on behalf of the OPP. 24 I want to begin, if I can, about your 25 observations of the contact between Bert Manning and

1 members of the OPP. 2 Now, first of all, as I understand it, you 3 saw Mr. Manning speaking with a police officer, late on 4 the night of September the 4th, after you and the other 5 occupiers entered the Park. Do I have that correct? 6 A: On Army Camp Road? 7 Q: No, I'm referring to an earlier 8 incident that you described yesterday. You mentioned 9 that you noticed Bert Manning speaking with a police 10 officer, in the Park, on the night of September the 4th? 11 A: On the afternoon of September the 12 4th? 13 Q: I had understood that it was at a 14 time after you had entered the Park, which would be at 15 night? 16 A: It was still daylight. 17 Q: It was still daylight? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. Do you know an OPP officer by 20 the name of Vince George? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: All right. Can you recall now, 23 whether or not the officer that you saw Bert Manning 24 speaking with, was Vince George? 25 A: Like I said, they were at some

1 distance over, I knew Bert was standing there, but I 2 wasn't sure if it was Vince. And from where the point -- 3 from where we were going into the Park, you can't see 4 their faces, they were -- they were -- they looked just 5 like a silhouette, so -- 6 Q: All right. 7 A: -- to me. 8 Q: I understand. Can you assist us and 9 tell us how long after you arrived at the Park, did you 10 see Bert Manning speaking with the police officer? 11 A: He was standing in the Park, when we 12 went in the Park through that other gate. 13 Q: All right. And is that the point 14 when you saw Mr. Manning speaking with the police 15 officer? 16 A: He was standing there. 17 Q: Speaking with the police officer? 18 A: I don't even know if he was saying 19 any words, but I said he was standing there. 20 Q: All right. I had -- had understood 21 from your evidence yesterday, that he was actually 22 speaking with an officer, you could not hear -- 23 A: Oh -- 24 Q: -- what he was saying, but he was 25 speaking with the officer?

1 A: No, I can't tell if he was speaking 2 with the officer, like I just said, it was a dist -- a 3 fair distance away. 4 Q: All right, and it was still light out 5 at that point? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. Then I anticipate that -- 8 that what you're describing is something different that 9 what I anticipate we're going to hear about, which was 10 much later on, after dark, Vince George -- just let me 11 finish for a moment -- Vince George spoke with Bert 12 Manning? 13 A: It's possible. 14 Q: Do you recall seeing a second 15 incident later that night when it was dark? 16 A: No. 17 Q: All right. Let's move on then to the 18 second time that you saw Bert Manning speaking with a 19 police officer, and that was somewhere on Army Camp Road? 20 A: Yes, and it was daylight also. 21 Q: All right, that was daylight. I 22 anticipate, Ms. George, that we're going to hear that a 23 police officer by the name of Mark Wright, spoke with 24 Bert Manning on Tuesday, September the 5th, in the early 25 afternoon, down on Army Camp Road, close to actually the

1 -- the main gate, to the built-up area, the barracks. 2 Does that seem like the same encounter that you observed? 3 A: No. It was farther down the road. 4 Q: So it was further towards the lake? 5 A: It was just past the store there. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: I didn't see Bert Manning's -- I 8 don't recall him talking to any police officers by the 9 front gate. 10 Q: Okay. But you -- you definitely saw 11 him speaking with an officer, further up the road, 12 towards the lake? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And would it be fair to say that that 15 occurred in the early afternoon of Tuesday the 5th? 16 A: In the afternoon, but on the 5th? I 17 can't be sure of that. 18 Q: All right. It may have been the 5th 19 or it may have been the 6th, is that fair? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: All right. You told us yesterday 22 that you shared your observation with your brother 23 Roderick. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you also told us that Roderick

1 wasn't very happy to learn that Bert Manning had been 2 speaking with the police officer. 3 A: Somewhat. 4 Q: All right. Now, I'm not asking you 5 to read your brother's mind because I know that's 6 impossible. But would it be fair to say that Roderick 7 left the impression with you, that he was upset that Bert 8 was talking to the police. 9 Because your brother didn't want any of 10 the occupiers communicating with the police? Or can you 11 say? 12 A: No, I can't say what my brother 13 wants. 14 Q: Okay. Because I'll be -- I'll be 15 frank with you, your brother has told us that he regarded 16 attempts by the police, to speak with the occupiers, as 17 harassment. 18 A: Can you say that again? 19 Q: Sure. Your brother Roderick told us 20 that he regarded attempts by the police to speak with the 21 occupiers and try and see if there was a way to resolve 22 this matter, he regarded that as harassment. 23 And so what I'm wondering, is that, when 24 you reported to him, that you had seen Bert Manning 25 speaking with the police officer, I'm wondering whether

1 Roderick said something to you that left you with the 2 impression that he didn't want any of the occupiers 3 speaking with the police. 4 A: No. He didn't leave me with that 5 impression. 6 Q: All right. But what he did leave you 7 with, was a sense that he wasn't very happy to learn that 8 Bert Manning was speaking with the police, as you told us 9 yesterday. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: You told us yesterday that -- that 14 when you conveyed to your brother Roderick that you'd 15 seen Bert talking to the police, he was not very happy. 16 A: No, and neither was myself. 17 Q: Okay. Then I'll ask you this. Why 18 weren't you happy about that? 19 A: No specific reason other than he was 20 talking to the police. 21 Q: Okay. I want to move onto another 22 area. You told us that on the evening of September the 23 6th, Russell Jewel came to you at the maintenance shed 24 and told you that when he'd been down by the Park store, 25 he kept hearing the word containment?

1 A: That's what he said. 2 Q: Okay. And with containment, what he 3 appeared to be saying to you was, that if all the 4 occupiers stayed in the Park, everyone would be safe? 5 A: That would -- that's what it appeared 6 like, yes. 7 Q: Okay. And you told us that you 8 weren't exactly sure where he'd learned about this, but 9 you assumed it was from a scanner? 10 A: That's what I assumed. 11 Q: Okay. Tell me why you assumed that. 12 Because -- I mean, again I'll step back for a minute and 13 I'll let you know -- 14 A: Well, because -- carry on. 15 Q: Thanks. I anticipate that we're 16 going to hear from the police, that indeed the reason 17 they walked down East Parkway Drive, was in order to move 18 the occupiers back in the Park. So, this is why this is 19 very interesting to me. 20 And we also know that a number of the 21 occupiers had at least one (1) scanner inside the Park. 22 So I'm curious, why did you get the impression that this 23 information about containment, came from a scanner? 24 A: No specific reason. 25 Q: It's just what you assumed?

1 A: Just what I assumed, yes. 2 Q: Okay. One (1) final point, Ms. 3 George. 4 A: But that night I didn't know they had 5 a scanner there, this -- 6 Q: So, did you put two (2) and two (2) 7 together after the fact then, after you learned that 8 there was scanners, that's when you figured out -- 9 A: It was some time after. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay, so after you heard that there 13 was scanners, that's when you put it together and you 14 realized, he must have heard this over the scanner? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay, fair enough. Last point. We 17 heard about the symbolic three (3) fires that were lit in 18 the area that's sometimes described as Ipperwash 19 Provincial Park, and I understand that those fires were 20 burning from the 4th, right through to the 6th, is that 21 correct? 22 A: It's possible, yes. 23 Q: Okay. But I was interested in 24 another fire that you described yesterday, and that was 25 when you left the Park area, after you learned of Dudley

1 George's shooting -- 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: -- and you were heading back towards 4 -- you call it downtown or uptown? 5 A: Uptown. 6 Q: Uptown, I like that phrase. All 7 right, you were heading uptown, you noticed another fire, 8 you noticed a fire -- 9 A: I -- I think I noticed a fire on the 10 side of the road or three (3). 11 Q: Exactly. Now, where was it again? 12 A: Alongside the road, if I can 13 correctly remember. 14 Q: Right, it was a little bit further 15 south of the Park area, between Army Camp Road and the 16 interior road on the Army Camp Base, the dirt road, is 17 that correct? 18 A: Off to the side, I think if I can 19 remember correctly, seeing a fire there. 20 Q: Okay, when you say off to the side, 21 what do you mean by that, Ms. George? 22 A: On the side of the road. 23 Q: Okay, all right. We're talking about 24 the same thing. And I trust, Ms. George, that you had 25 not noticed that fire before, that was new to the night

1 of September the 6th? 2 A: I can't be positive. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: That was a long time ago. 5 Q: I understand. You didn't mention it 6 before that you'd noticed it in any of your other travels 7 on the 5th, for example. So, fair to say that it stands 8 out in your mind, because that was the first you'd 9 noticed it on the evening of the 6th? 10 A: Again, it -- it is -- I vaguely 11 remember, it's possible that I seen a fire or three (3) 12 on the side of the road. 13 Q: So there may have even been three (3) 14 fires on the side of the road? 15 A: I can't be most -- I can't be 16 definite, that was a long time ago. 17 Q: I understand, all right. Ms. George, 18 thank you for your time. 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Those are my 20 questions, Mr. Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 22 Ms. Tuck-Jackson. Mr. McGilp...? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 MR. IAN MCGILP: Commissioner, with the 2 assistance of Ms. Newell, I propose to use certain videos 3 and photographs and I'm wondering if we could take the 4 morning break at this point, in order to give us a moment 5 to set that up. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine, Mr. 7 McGilp. 8 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thank you, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take 10 the morning break now. 11 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 12 for fifteen (15) minutes. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 10:20 a.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 10:40 a.m. 16 17 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 18 resumed. Please be seated. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine, Mr. 20 McGilp. 21 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thank you, Mr. 22 Commissioner. 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 25 Q: Good morning, Ms. George.

1 A: Good morning. 2 Q: My name is Ian McGilp and I'm one (1) 3 of the lawyers who represent the OPP Association. It's 4 not the Force itself. The Association represents the 5 uniformed of -- or the rank and file officers, who work 6 for the OPP. 7 I have first, Ms. George, to ask you a 8 couple of questions about the incident when the -- when 9 you took over the barracks, the built-up area. Now when 10 Marlin Simon was here, he told us on October the 12th -- 11 we heard that Marlin told the Commission that they had -- 12 there had been a discussion and that a plan had been 13 developed to use the bus as a diversion. 14 And what he meant by that was that the 15 plan was that the bus would and did come in a gate that 16 was on the north or the beach side of the built-up area 17 and that the Military people who were present or on duty 18 that day, would move down to investigate this bus coming 19 into the area. 20 And while the Military people were down 21 there, other people would enter through the main gate of 22 the Army Camp. Do you recall that there was a plan to 23 use the bus in that kind of a manner? 24 A: No. 25 Q: You don't recall that?

1 A: No. 2 Q: You told us yesterday, ma'am that the 3 -- you tried to get on the bus yourself at one (1) point. 4 But that you were told that it was only young guys on the 5 bus. Is that what you said? 6 A: That's what I was told. 7 Q: That's what you were told. And you 8 weren't a young guy, right? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And do you remember who told you 11 that? 12 A: No. 13 Q: No? 14 A: There was more one (1) -- than one 15 (1) young guy who told me that. 16 Q: More -- there was a bunch of them 17 telling you? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And do you know why they wanted only 20 young guys on the bus? 21 A: No. No, I don't. 22 Q: Were there any -- were there -- as 23 far as you can recollect and you may not be able to, were 24 there any people that weren't -- that were over eighteen 25 (18) years say?

1 A: I can't recollect their ages. 2 Q: You're not sure? Thank you, Ms. 3 George. Now the Military personnel filed incident 4 reports, not surprisingly, after that event of the bus 5 and the people coming. And there in fact were two (2) 6 incident reports. One was prepared by Captain Smith, who 7 was the commander of the -- of the Base. And his report 8 is at Document Number 700 0341. And there was also a 9 report prepared by a Corporal Todd, Document Number 700 10 244. 11 And Captain Smith's report indicates that 12 there were something like eighty (80) people and fifteen 13 (15) vehicles that came through the main gate. Now I 14 think yesterday you put the number much lower than that. 15 Does that, at all, refresh your memory as 16 to approximately how many people would have -- how many 17 vehicles would have come through the main gate, which is 18 I believe, where you entered? He said that there were 19 about fifteen (15) vehicles and eighty (80) people. 20 A: Well, I think that's a bit too much. 21 Q: A bit too much? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: But it would've been would you say a 24 dozen vehicles or ten (10) vehicles and fifty (50) 25 people? Would that be closer to your recollection?

1 A: It's hard to say. 2 Q: But in any event, eighty (80) and 3 fifteen (15) is a bit too much? 4 A: I think so, yeah. 5 Q: Thank you. Corporal Todd's report 6 indicates that the school bus, at some point, rammed into 7 the doors of the drill hall so that it was partially 8 inside the building and partially outside the building. 9 Do you remember seeing that at all? 10 A: No. 11 Q: You didn't see that? 12 A: I don't remember seeing that at all. 13 Q: Did -- Mr. Roderick George, when he 14 was here, also said that he did not see that happen but 15 that he did hear about it from others, later on. Do you 16 recall other -- hearing from other people that that had 17 happened? 18 A: No. 19 Q: No? I take it then that -- well, I 20 shouldn't say I take it. Let me ask you, Corporal or 21 Captain Smith's incident report also indicates, that 22 after the bus crashed the doors, a -- a Military Jeep 23 parked behind the bus and that at some point the bus 24 reversed and pushed that Jeep backwards some forty (40) 25 or fifty (50) feet; did you happen to see that incident?

1 A: No. 2 Q: You didn't see that? 3 A: No. I can't recall that. 4 Q: You can't recall that? And, again, I 5 would just ask you the same question, do you recall 6 others telling you about that incident, later on, at all? 7 A: No, I don't. 8 Q: No, I don't. Thank you. Corporal 9 Todd also says that several of the native persons who 10 were there were carrying sticks or metal bars, at some 11 point during the incident, and that several of the people 12 were chanting, Stone them, stone them; do you recall 13 hearing that at all? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And do you recall whether some of the 16 individuals that were present were carrying sticks or 17 metal bars, at all? 18 A: Do I recall? 19 Q: Do you recall seeing any of the 20 native persons, who occupied the built-up area that day-- 21 A: No, I -- I never seen anybody 22 carrying any sticks? 23 Q: Any stick or metal bar at all? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. Now, we've

1 heard evidence, again from Marlon Simon on September 2 28th, he told the Commission that the Military people and 3 certain heads of -- and some -- and some heads of certain 4 families of the occupiers, made an arrangement or an 5 agreement about which buildings would be occupied by the 6 -- by the natives and which would be left to the purposes 7 of the Military people. 8 Do you recall hearing that there was an 9 arrangement or an agreement of that kind, at all? 10 A: As to where occupiers and Military 11 would sleep? 12 Q: Would -- would be able -- which 13 buildings the Military would be able to use and which 14 buildings the occupiers would use? 15 A: Yes, I recall that. 16 Q: And Mr. Simon also told us that the 17 people didn't really respect those agreements, that 18 within a short time, in fact, the people took the 19 position that all the buildings should be occ -- or that 20 they had a right to occupy all the buildings and -- and 21 started looking around, or at least, started entering 22 barr -- all of the buildings; do you recall that? 23 A: I recall Roderick asking some of the 24 young guys to go and turn lights on in the buildings but 25 I'm really not -- I don't think the Military was there at

1 that point. 2 Q: The Military wasn't there at that 3 point? 4 A: Becau -- because it was much -- late 5 evening. 6 Q: That would have been late evening. 7 Do -- do you recall at all, Ms. George, 8 whether the arrangements that you referred to about who 9 would use which buildings, do you recall whether the 10 people respected that -- those arrangements or whether 11 they did not? 12 A: Oh, I recall that they respected 13 those arrangements. 14 Q: They respected them? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Thank you. If you'll just excuse me 17 for one (1) second, Ms. George, we're going to put up 18 another segment of -- of video from that camera that was 19 in the maintenance shed. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: Ms. Hensel's reputation is about to 24 be tarnished, Mr. Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Blame it on

1 Derry Millar. 2 MR. IAN MCGILP: It is definitely Mr. 3 Millar's fault. 4 THE WITNESS: He's not here to defend 5 himself. 6 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thank you, Ms. Knowles. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 9 Q: You'll see, Ms. George, that the -- 10 well, first of all, do you recognize the area that is 11 shown on the screen? 12 A: I believe that wall is in between the 13 two (2) garages. 14 Q: In the maintenance building? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Yes. And you'll see that on the time 17 -- the time on the screen is September 7th at zero hours, 18 fifty-six (56) minutes which is almost one o'clock in the 19 morning on September the 7th. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Were you in the maintenance building 22 at that time, as far as you can recall? At one o'clock 23 in the morning, on September the 7th? 24 A: I don't think I was. On September 25 7th?

1 Q: On September the 7th? This -- but 2 it's only one o'clock in the morning. This would only be 3 a couple of hours after the unfortunate shooting of Mr. 4 Dudley George. And that was around eleven o'clock or 5 11:15, somewhere in that vicinity. 6 This is one o'clock in the morning. So 7 it's less than two (2) hours after that. Do you recall 8 whether you were in the maintenance shed? 9 A: When we went back down to the Park 10 before the store was lit, I don't recall going inside 11 there, best to my reco -- recollection. 12 Q: You don't recall going in the shed at 13 that point? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Would you please watch the video as 16 it runs forward please? And it'll only be few seconds. 17 18 (VIDEO PLAYING) 19 20 Q: Is that you, Ms. George? Can you 21 tell from that picture if that's yourself? 22 A: The picture's a little blurry. From 23 the front of that shirt it looks like -- I don't know. 24 Q: Do you recognize the shirt? 25 A: That kind of looks like me, yes.

1 Q: Do you know what's in your right 2 hand? 3 A: Not right off hand. 4 Q: You can't make it out? 5 A: No. The picture's too blurry. 6 Q: Thank you. Can you -- are you able 7 to see enough -- see that photograph there well enough to 8 be able to tell us who that person is? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Who is that please? 11 A: I believe that's my nephew David 12 Abraham. 13 Q: David Abraham? 14 A: Also known as Super Dave. 15 Q: As Super Dave, also known as David 16 George? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Thank you. Same question, Ms. 19 George. Can you help us identify that person, please? 20 A: I believe that's the same person I 21 just mentioned. 22 Q: David George or -- 23 A: Yeah, yes. 24 Q: -- Super Dave? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. Ms. George, if 2 I may ask, when did you first meet Russell Jewel? 3 A: In May of 1995, down the beach. I 4 wasn't personally introduced to him but I asked who he 5 was. 6 Q: Someone introduced you to Mr. Jewel 7 on the beach in May of 1995, is that? 8 A: I wasn't introduced to him. I asked 9 who he was and they told me who he was. 10 Q: I see, thank you very much. If I 11 might just pause for a moment, Ms. George, and we should 12 make an exhibit of that -- of that video that we 13 displayed please. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-134. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-134. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-134: Excerpt from Maintenance Shed 18 DVD 9-07-95 O:56:06 to 0:56:09 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN McGILP: 21 Q: For the record the excerpt of the 22 video that we showed from the maintenance shed is dated 23 September the 7th, 1995 at 00:56 and following seconds. 24 Ms. George, I believe you told us 25 yesterday that Russ Jewel was from Muncey, is that

1 correct? 2 A: I'm pretty sure he's from Muncey. 3 Q: Do you know if he was born and grew 4 up in Muncey or? 5 A: I have no idea. 6 Q: You have no idea. We -- we -- there 7 are documents that -- that have been disclosed by the 8 Commission for the various parties. One (1) of them 9 indicates that Mr. Jewel holds a Michigan driver's 10 license. 11 Do you know whether he would -- whether he 12 had a Michigan driver's license or an Ontario driver's 13 license at all? 14 A: I -- I think he had an Ontario 15 driver's license. But I can't be positive. 16 Q: You're not sure? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And the -- the documents also 19 indicate that Mr. Jewel may have at one (1) time been a 20 US Marine. Did he ever tell you anything about that? 21 A: No. 22 Q: He never mentioned that to you? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Do you know when -- I believe you 25 said you first met Jewel -- Mr. Jewel, Russ Jewel in May

1 of 1995, is that correct? 2 A: I -- I seen him in May of '95 but I 3 was not officially introduced to him. 4 Q: At that time? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: When did you first get to know Mr. 7 Jewel? 8 A: I would say after we went up on the 9 built-up area. 10 Q: It was after -- 11 A: July 29, '95. 12 Q: Was Mr. Jewel at the event when -- 13 you people took over the built-up area? 14 A: I'm not sure. 15 Q: I should tell you that Wesley -- 16 Marlin Simon when he was here, told us that there were a 17 number of people from other First Nations who -- who were 18 present at a discussion that was held prior to the 19 takeover of the built-up area. 20 And Mr. Wesley George, when he was here on 21 December the 1st, told the Commissioner that he thought 22 Russ and Les Jewel were probably at that discussion that 23 led to the takeover of the barracks area. 24 Does that refresh your memory at all? 25 A: At -- well, where would this

1 discussion have been taken place? 2 Q: If my memory serves me correct and 3 I'm not sure it does, I believe the discussion was down 4 at the beach. 5 A: Before I went on the base? 6 Q: Before you went on the tape -- on the 7 built-up area, that's right. This was some time prior to 8 July 29 of 1995. 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: Mr. Simon told us that there was a 11 discussion about taking over the barracks or the built-up 12 area. And that there were a number of people there from 13 other First Nations. 14 And Mr. Wesley George, when he was here, 15 told us that he -- he thought that Mr. Les Jewel and Mr. 16 Russ Jewel were probably at that discussion. 17 A: On the beach? 18 Q: I believe it was on the beach, but I 19 can't be certain of that. I -- I -- the question is, do 20 you recall whether or not Mr. Jewel, Russ Jewel or Les 21 Jewel, were present at the event or the day that you took 22 over the built-up area? 23 A: I'm pretty sure that Les -- Les -- 24 Q: Les? 25 A: -- was there --

1 Q: Was there. 2 A: -- but I'm not certain if Russell was 3 there. 4 Q: Thank you, Ms. George, that's -- we 5 anticipate, Ms. George, that there will be evidence from 6 a Constable McGrath (phonetic) of the OPP will say that 7 on September the 6th, 1995, Russell Jewel's car was 8 stopped -- or stopped at the -- one (1) of the 9 checkpoints that the -- checkpoint where Constable 10 McGrath was working. 11 And that while -- and that she saw a 12 number of live shotgun shells -- I'm sorry he, it's 13 Constable McGrath -- is that he saw a number of live 14 shotgun shells on the console over the transmission of 15 Mr. Jewel's car. 16 Did you -- I take it you rode in Russ 17 Jewel's car on several occasions in the period of 18 September 4th, 5th, and 6th? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Did you ever see any live shotgun 21 shells or spent shells in the car? 22 A: No, I didn't. 23 Q: You did not? 24 A: I did not, no. 25 Q: Ms. George, can you tell the

1 Commissioner, please, if you're still in touch with Mr. 2 Russ Jewel? 3 A: No I'm not in touch Mr. Russ Jewel. 4 Q: When did you last hear from him as 5 far as you can recall? 6 A: The day he left. 7 Q: The day he left the Stoney Point 8 area? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And do you know -- 11 A: Along with his brother Les. 12 Q: He and his brother left together? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And do you know when -- 15 A: And Les' family. 16 Q: And Les' family? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Les had other family here did he as 19 well as Russ? 20 A: Yes, he did. 21 Q: And was that family, children, or? 22 A: He had a wife named Donna, two (2) 23 daughters, a teenager named Arletta (phonetic) and a 24 younger one named Lydia. 25 Q: Lydia. And can you tell us please,

1 as best as you can recall, when the -- Mr. Les Jewel and 2 his family and Mr. Russ Jewel left the area? 3 A: I think possibly it was in the first 4 week of January, 1996. 5 Q: Of '96? 6 A: To my best recollection. 7 Q: And you said I believe that you'd 8 never seen either Les or Russ Jewel since that time? 9 A: I never. But my two (2) daughters 10 told me that they seen Russ in a dark coloured van. This 11 was one (1) day in the summer. I don't know which year. 12 It was after September '95 though. My two (2) daughters 13 said they seen him in a van. Possibly he was on his way 14 to the beach. 15 Q: The beach near the Stoney Point area? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And can you help the Commissioner, at 18 all, put a time frame on that. Would -- 19 A: It would have -- it would be after 20 1998. 21 Q: After 1998? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And -- but not in the last three (3) 24 or four (4) years, for example? 25 A: No. No.

1 Q: So it would be roughly be in the '98 2 to 2000 era? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Do you have any idea, at all, where 5 Mr. Russ Jewel lives now? 6 A: I -- I recall Ben Pouget mentioning 7 to me that he might be living in Roseville, (phonetic) 8 Michigan. 9 Q: In Roseville, Michigan? And do you 10 know how long ago Mr. Pouget indicated that to you 11 approximately? 12 A: Within the last three (3) months. 13 Q: Within the last three (3) months. Do 14 you know whether Russ Jewel is commonly known by any 15 other name? Does he have any nickname or -- or alias 16 that he sometime uses? 17 A: No. 18 Q: You don't. Do you have any 19 information at all, Ms. George, as to where Mr. Les Jewel 20 is living now? 21 A: Not really, no. 22 Q: No one has ever -- 23 A: Other -- other than Munsey, where 24 he's from. 25 Q: You believe that Mr. Les Jewel is

1 also from Munsey eh? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And had -- I take it that on the 4 occasion when you mentioned that your daughter saw Russ 5 Jewel they -- did they indicate whether Les was with him 6 or not? 7 A: No. 8 Q: They didn't, no. 9 A: No. 10 Q: So you haven't heard anything of or 11 from Les Jewel since 1996, is that correct? 12 A: Yes, that is correct. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. And do you know whether Les 14 Jewel has any alias or nickname that he sometimes goes 15 by? 16 A: No. I -- I think his correct name is 17 Leslie. But I can't be positive. 18 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. Do you 19 remember whether the car that Russ Jewel was driving in 20 September of 1995, do you recall whether it had Ontario 21 license plates or Michigan license plates? 22 A: Yes. It -- it does. As a matter of 23 fact it's still in the junkyard on Aazhoodena with the 24 same plates on it, the last time I looked he left his 25 vehicle behind.

1 Q: And they were Ontario plates? 2 A: I'm sure they were. I'm sure they 3 are. 4 Q: And you mentioned that that car is 5 still to be found at a junkyard. Could you just tell the 6 Commission where that junkyard is please? 7 A: It's right on Aazhoodena. I believe 8 the license plate is 9-1-4-P-T-K. 9 Q: That's at the Military base is it? 10 A: Yes, by the green buildings. 11 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. Do you -- I 12 have one (1) more question then about Mr. Jewel. 13 Do you know of any friends or family of -- 14 of Mr. Russ Jewel or Mr. Les Jewel, that might be able to 15 find the -- help the Commission locate Mr. Jewel, or 16 either of them, in order that they might be able to give 17 evidence at this Inquiry? 18 A: Russ Jewel himself, has two (2) 19 daughters and a son. I was introduced to them, I would 20 say back, after September 1995. And he has a younger -- 21 a young son with the same name, Russel Jewel. 22 Q: Same name. 23 A: Yes. And I think his one (1) 24 daughter's name is Bernadette or it could possibly be his 25 wife. I think it's his wife and I think his daughter's

1 name is Odette. (phonetic) Odette -- 2 Q: Odette? 3 A: -- I think. Yeah. 4 Q: And do you -- would Bernadette's last 5 name be Jewel, do you know that? 6 A: I think maybe so. 7 Q: And what about his children, Odette, 8 you mentioned, would her last name be Jewel, as far as 9 you know? 10 A: As far as I know, yeah. 11 Q: And do you remember the other 12 daughter's name? 13 A: Not right off hand. 14 Q: Or the -- the name of his son? 15 A: Russell. 16 Q: Also, yes, that's right, you said 17 that, Russell Jewel. 18 Now, switching to the incident that you 19 referred to yesterday about the "OPP Who" car, when it 20 got stuck down in the -- in the sand at the beach? 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Excuse me a moment, Ms. George, we 25 have to key some photographs up again.

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: While we're doing that, I can tell -- 4 tell you, Ms. George and -- that we're going to show some 5 photographs that were taken by a Mr. Ronald Taylor, who 6 was a camper at Provincial -- at the Ipperwash Provincial 7 Park from the 31st of August, 1995 to the 4th of 8 September, 1995. 9 And Mr. Taylor took some photographs of -- 10 of the OPP car when it was stuck in the sand down there. 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: And he gave a statement to the SIU 13 investigators on the 26th of January, 1996, and the doc - 14 - for the benefit of the record, the document number of 15 the photos is 1003031, and the document number of the SIU 16 statement is 1002327. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Thank you. Now, Ms. George, you can 21 see that photograph, and I'm going to read from the -- 22 from the statement that Mr. Taylor gave to the SIU. And 23 he refers to the photographs by number. And with any 24 luck, my assistants here will be able to change the 25 photograph on the screen from one (1) photograph to the

1 other, as Mr. Taylor refers to them in -- in sequence. 2 Mr. Taylor says -- yes, I mean you see 3 that picture there of the -- of -- first of all does that 4 look like the "OPP Who" Car to you, in the photograph? 5 A: Yes, it does. 6 Q: And does that look to you like the 7 location where it got stuck on the day that you -- that 8 you were involved with that incident? 9 A: No. 10 Q: It doesn't look like it's stuck 11 there? 12 A: No, and I -- it's not the same 13 location. Or the same exact spot. 14 Q: Mr. Taylor indicates that the -- he - 15 - Mr. Taylor says: 16 "Photograph number 6," -- 17 Which is this photograph: 18 -- "indicates the sign in the 19 foreground, no travel beyond this 20 point." 21 You can see that sign? 22 "You can also, in the foreground, see 23 the concrete bunker or barriers that 24 were put in place recently. The old 25 post right behind and far to the

1 centre of the picture, the other 2 concrete barrier on the other side of 3 the access road, just beyond those is a 4 vehicle that you can see by the shape 5 of it, it's an older make of vehicle in 6 which wooden fins have been put down on 7 the -- the background, or on the --" 8 excuse me," wooden fins on the back -- 9 the back of the car. 10 If you were to look at the words on 11 the side of it, they are saying "OPP 12 Who" on this. This vehicle was most 13 regularly driven by one (1) person, 14 later identified to me as Dudley 15 George. And they would frequently sit 16 at that location, and basically defying 17 any campers to come into their area, 18 and if so, they would take exception to 19 that, and in no uncertain terms tell 20 them, we need your people to leave. 21 Photograph Number 7..." 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thank you, Ms. Newell.

1 2 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 3 Q: "Photograph number 7, shows one (1) 4 of those situations in which the person 5 in the green shorts, who was identified 6 to me as Dudley George, driving the 7 vehicle at that time, chases some 8 campers away from the area, and came 9 out into the access road region, where 10 he fish-tailed around and became stuck 11 in the sand there. And then the 12 campers just on the other side, were 13 just there at the time, he started 14 taunting them, saying, Well, what the 15 'F' are you looking at. At that --" 16 Now, first of all, Ms. George, if I may 17 stop the -- reading from the statement. Do you recall -- 18 I mean you said yesterday I believe, that there were a 19 number of campers who were in -- at some distance 20 observing this incident. 21 And do you recall Mr. Dudley George asking 22 them what the 'F' they were looking at? 23 A: He wasn't talking to no campers when 24 I was there. 25 Q: He wasn't talking to any campers?

1 A: No, he was just -- he was in the face 2 of the police officer. 3 Q: I see. The statement goes on: 4 "At that point in time the person, 5 Gilmore..." 6 And I should interject to explain that it 7 later on appears in the statement that what Mr. Taylor 8 means by "The person Gilmore" is the person who was 9 wearing a Toronto Maple Leafs hockey shirt, with the name 10 Gilmore, on the back, there he is. 11 So it wasn't his name but the name of the 12 hockey player on the shirt. 13 "At that point in time, the person 14 Gilmore who came out was in the car at 15 the time got out of the vehicle. He 16 was staggering quite a bit and 17 displayed a beer bottle at that time. 18 The OPP Officers who came down to see 19 if there was any assistance they could 20 require, had been on surveillance 21 within the Park. Dudley George told 22 them to get the 'F' away from the 23 cars." 24 Now, before I move on, do you know who the 25 person with the Gilmore shirt on is?

1 A: No, I can't. But if I could see his 2 face I might be able to -- 3 Q: I realize you can't see his face. I 4 just wondered if you happened to, since you were there 5 that day, if you remembered an individual that might have 6 been wearing a Toronto Maple Leafs hockey jersey with 7 that number and name on the back? 8 A: Not to be specific. 9 Q: Not to be sure. 10 A: Had you asked me two (2) or one (1) 11 year later I might be able to tell you -- would have told 12 you -- 13 Q: I'm sorry, Ms. George -- 14 A: Would have been able to tell you. 15 Q: I realize it's a very long time. We 16 all realize it's very difficult for any of the witnesses 17 to recall things. 18 Photograph number 8 -- which I understand 19 is the one we just saw, 20 "Is a continuation of the same scenario 21 taken at a distance further away in 22 which you can see Dudley George still 23 gesturing with the officers at that 24 point in time. The camper's sitting on 25 the concrete bunkers watching this

1 action take place. 2 And just continually on a loud tirade 3 at that point. 4 Photograph number 9 is still a 5 continuation of the same scenario -- 6 continuation of the same scenario. You 7 can see here the car is firmly stuck in 8 the sand --" 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: "-- Dudley George, now that he sees 11 reinforcements coming in the 12 background, he sees people coming 13 forward on one (1) -- two (2) on an 14 all-terrain vehicle telling the 15 officers to, Get the 'F' out of the way 16 and to keep also -- they indicated keep 17 those people away from our land. 18 I should indicate, back there, that he 19 also indicated that he did have a gun 20 and would start to shoot these people 21 if they did not stay off there land -- 22 our land. The officers in photograph 23 number 9 then backed away back to their 24 vehicle which was on the access road." 25 Now, the question I have, Ms. George, do

1 you recall Dudley George telling the police that he had a 2 gun and would start to shoot people if they didn't stay 3 off their land? 4 A: No, I do not. 5 Q: Do you recall the ATVs being present? 6 A: No, I don't. 7 Q: You don't recall that either? In 8 this photograph, Ms. George, is that you in the 9 foreground there? Can you tell? 10 A: Which one? 11 Q: The female person in the white t- 12 shirt with the long hair? 13 A: One (1), two (2), three (3), four 14 (4). 15 Q: Well, do you recognize any of those 16 individuals as yourself, first of all? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Can we go to the next photograph then 19 please? Do you recognize that person indicated by the 20 arrow? 21 A: By the arrow? 22 Q: Yes, if you could wiggle the -- 23 A: Oh, what arrow? Oh, no. It's hard 24 to make out. 25 Q: For the record, this is photo number

1 12 but Ms. George is not able to identify it. Do you 2 remember the scene that is depicted in that photograph? 3 A: In this photograph you could see the 4 fence more as to oppose when it was parked a ways over. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: And as to -- 7 Q: We're going to look at one (1) more 8 photograph which I believe is number 16. And the 9 question I have -- do you recognize the vehicle with the 10 trunk raised in that photograph? 11 A: I think it looks like a Nova. 12 Q: Are you -- do you know if that's the 13 vehicle belonging to Mr. Russ Jewel? 14 A: No it isn't. 15 Q: It is not. It is another vehicle? 16 A: I think that's my brother's car. 17 Q: Your brother? 18 A: But then again if that picture was a 19 little clearer I -- I yes -- I think it's my brother's 20 car. 21 Q: What about that car that again the 22 arrow is pointing at? Do you recognize that car? 23 A: No, I don't. 24 Q: What about the one in the middle? 25 A: Ah no, I don't.

1 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. We should 2 mark those photographs as an exhibit and the statement 3 together, please. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-135. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-135: Document 1003031 Photographs 7 Taken by Ronald Taylor Aug 31/95 8 and Document 1002327 Jan 26/96 9 Statement from Ronald Taylor to SIU 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 12 Q: Just for the record I'm going to 13 indicate again that the photographs we were looking at 14 are Document Number 100-3031 and that the statement of 15 Mr. Taylor is 100-2327. Now, Ms. George, I'm going to 16 take you to a statement of another individual, a Mr. Al 17 Gretch (phonetic). 18 And for the record this is Document Number 19 1004489 and it's page 117 of that document. Now Mr. 20 Gretch is an individual who makes a statement to the OPP 21 in June of 1997, describing an incident that occurred 22 with him and his family down on the beach, in this area. 23 And he -- the incident that he describes 24 involves Dudley George. And a -- and a female individual 25 who was accompanying Mr. George. And the question I

1 wanted to ask you -- I want to read you his description 2 of this -- these events and then ask you if you were the 3 individual, the female person who was with Dudley. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY GEORGE: Mr. Scullion 5 has got an observation to make. 6 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It's an observation 7 and an objection to just the process. My Friend is 8 indicating he's going to read in the entire statement and 9 then afterwards ask Ms. George if that was in fact her 10 after all the statement is put in. 11 Perhaps there's dates, times, locations 12 that can be put to Ms. George to see if she was there at 13 the time, before we have an entire statement read into 14 the record. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That might 16 be a better way to do it. 17 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thank you, Mr. Scullion. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 20 Q: The date is September the 3rd and the 21 place is the beach at the -- the Port Franks beach and 22 then onto the Military beach. Do you recall -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: September 24 3rd of which -- I'm sorry, September 3rd of which year? 25 MR. IAN MCGILP: September 3rd of 1995.

1 2 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 3 Q: And there was an -- an incident 4 involving the OPP car and Dudley George down on the Port 5 Franks beach, that -- that -- where the individuals 6 involved started out, on the Port Franks beach and then 7 went over to the beach below the Army Camp or the former 8 Army Camp. 9 Do you recall whether you were down on the 10 beach -- 11 A: Way over -- 12 Q: -- with Dudley George. 13 A: -- way over on the northwest -- no, 14 northeast corner? 15 Q: I understand that Mr. Dudley George 16 would have been on the beach, on the Army Camp beach. 17 You understand what I mean by that? Not on the Port 18 Franks beach, this individual, Mr. Gretch was on the Port 19 Franks beach, and proceeding onto the beach that was 20 north of the Army Camp, or the Ar -- the beach at the 21 Army Camp. 22 Do you recall if you were with Dudley 23 George on September the 3rd of 1995, which would be the 24 day before the takeover of the Park. Do you recall if 25 you were on the beach with Mr. George, in the "OPP Who"

1 car, at the beach below the Army Camp? 2 A: No, I don't. 3 Q: Do you think it might refresh your 4 memory if I described the events that Mr. Gretch 5 describes, do you think that might refresh your memory? 6 A: It