1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 January 19th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  
  7  Murray Klippenstein )            The Estate of Dudley 
  8  Vilko Zbogar       )            George and George
  9  Andrew Orkin       )  (np)      Family Group
 10  Basil Alexander    ) (np)       Student-at-Law
 11  
 12  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 13  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 14  
 15  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 16  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena  (Army Camp)
 17  
 18  William Henderson )   (np)       Kettle Point & Stoney
 19  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 20  
 21  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 22  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 23  Sue Freeborn     )   (np)
 24  Maureen Smith    )
 25

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )   (np)       Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (Np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 11  
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  
 15  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 16  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 17  
 18  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 19  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 20  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 21  
 22  Ian Roland       )              Ontario Provincial 
 23  Annie Leeks      )              Police Association &
 24  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 25  Ian McGilp       )

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  
  7  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
  8  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
  9  
 10  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 11  Matthew Horner   )
 12  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 13  
 14  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 15  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 16  Megan Mackey     )
 17  
 18  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 19  Anna Perschy     )
 20  Melissa Panjer   )   (np)
 21  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 22  
 23  
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 NICHOLAS ABRAHAM COTTRELLE, Sworn 6 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 7 8 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 38 9 10 TINA RENE GEORGE; Sworn 11 12 Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 51 13 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 238 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-129 2 Photographs, September 07/95 4 1) 15-0A, 2) 15.3A plus CD-Rom. 41 5 P-130 Copy of Maintenance Building Tape 6 number 001- September 5 to 6, 7 1995, from 2109 hours to 0300 8 hours. Produced by the Ontario 9 Provincial Police, Anti-Rackets 10 Section, Evidence Management Unit. 202 11 P-131 Photograph depicting witness 12 and others together with Officer 13 Eves. 236 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. Mr. Ross, I think you're up. 8 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, Mr. 9 Commissioner. 10 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 12 Q: Good morning, Mr. Cottrelle. 13 A: Good morning. 14 Q: I will address a couple of matters 15 raised by Ms. Tuck-Jackson as well as Mr. Roland and Ms. 16 McAleer. I will start however with Mr. Roland. He 17 proceeded to walk you through what I understand was your 18 arrest chronology. And that's where I would take you 19 also. 20 He first spoke to you about when you got 21 in the ambulance and a police officer was with you; do 22 you recall discussing that with him? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And that police officer was Boone. 25 That's the name that he used and I suggest to you accept

1 it? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Yeah. Now, when you were in the 4 ambulance, it is suggested by Mr. Roland that Officer 5 Boon read you your rights? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Now, that was a suggestion. Do you 8 recall him actually reading you your rights? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Do you recall him telling you that 11 you were under arrest? 12 A: No. 13 Q: I see. So you're in the ambulance; 14 and I would like you to explain to the Commissioner what 15 happened as between yourself and the police officer from 16 the time you got into the ambulance until you reached the 17 hospital. 18 First thing, how many police officers were 19 in the ambulance with you? 20 A: One (1). 21 Q: Apart from the police officer in the 22 ambulance, was there an attendant there also? 23 A: I believe so, yes. 24 Q: So, you -- it was just not you and 25 the police officer, it would be you, him and probably an

1 -- an attendant? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And was there any questioning as you 4 travelled from where you boarded the ambulance to the 5 hospital? 6 A: Not that I can remember. 7 Q: Pardon me? 8 A: Not that I can remember. 9 Q: Okay. And then you got to the 10 hospital, and I understand -- first, in reading to you 11 from one (1) of the reports, Mr. Roland read -- and it 12 appears at page 258 of the transcript -- and he's -- he 13 was telling you about an officer, he says: 14 "And he's apparently going to testify 15 that he" -- 16 That you said you understood when asked if 17 you wished to call a lawyer, you replied: 18 "Well, obviously, I can't now." 19 Do you recall that discussion? 20 A: No. 21 Q: It goes on, he says: 22 "And he is going to say" -- 23 That's the police officer, that because 24 you were a young offender he advised you of a right to 25 have a parent, guardian or other responsible adult during

1 any question -- any questioning, and you replied: 2 "Yes." 3 Do you recall that discussion? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And, as a matter of fact, being in 6 the ambulance, it would be ridiculous for you to expect 7 to be able to make a phone call. And your parents were 8 excluded from the trip to the hospital; am I correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then, at the hospital, Mr. Roland 11 indicated that we pick up with Constable Carolyn Kennedy. 12 You remember a second police officer, a woman, at -- 13 dealing with you at the hospital? 14 A: No, I don't. 15 Q: I see. So, anyway, that's two (2) 16 police officers. The first one you remember going in the 17 ambulance with you but the second one you don't remember. 18 It says later that about three o'clock you 19 were visited by Ron, Reg, Bob, and Warren George; do you 20 remember Ron George visiting about three o'clock in the 21 morning? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And who was Reg? 24 A: That would be Dudley's brother. 25 Q: And who was Bob?

1 A: Could have been Nobby, Rob George. 2 Q: That's Ron George's father? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And Warren George? 5 A: Would be a cousin of mine. 6 Q: Yeah. Now, at the time of this 7 visit, did you call Ron George to visit you? 8 A: I can't remember. I don't think so. 9 Q: Yeah. But, in any event, with Ron 10 George being there, was he there as a visitor or did you 11 have him there as your lawyer? 12 A: A visitor. 13 Q: And then he claims, Mr. Roland put to 14 you that around -- around 4:23, that another police 15 officer was involved, an Ident. officer by the name of 16 Evans (phonetic). 17 Did you remember anybody introducing 18 themselves to you as Officer Evans? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: So, this is now police officer number 21 3, and we are down to 4:23 in the morning. And as far as 22 Evans is concerned, you indicated that -- excuse me. Mr. 23 Roland suggested that Constable Kennedy's statement 24 indicated that she observed you consent to a test. That 25 was for this gunshot residue. Do you recall that?

1 A: No. 2 Q: And you in -- your response was that 3 you were sleeping. Now what I want to get to here is, 4 there's also suggestion that they could only test your 5 left hand because your right hand was bandaged. Do you 6 reme -- recall that discussion yesterday? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Now would your right hand have been 9 bandaged? 10 A: I can't remember. 11 Q: Now when you were driving the bus, 12 the night before, was your right hand bandaged? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And so then I would suggest that if 15 we take a look at your and I don't want to go through the 16 full medical records, Mr. Commissioner, but there's 17 something here that I think is of interest. I ask you to 18 look under Tab 8, have you got your book handy? Have you 19 got Tab 8, those are the medical records? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Five (5) pages in is the heading 22 History and Physical Examination. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Cottrelle, yours 24 is probably double sided so it's the 5th -- it's 25 actually --

1 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Two and a half pages 2 in. The third page. Is it headed --- 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's titled -- the 4 second page of yours on the other side. He's got it. 5 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: That's it I think. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No, no. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 9 Q: Is it headed History and Physical 10 Examinations? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Now if you come down you can see it 13 started Number 1 History of Chief Complainant. Then 14 physical examination and then it's CBS -- sorry, chest, 15 CBS, abdomen and now extremities. I make -- interested in 16 the extremities. It says here: 17 "Arms and legs normal in tone and 18 strength." 19 Now this would be consistent with your 20 understanding of your condition. No need for bandages. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And over two (2) pages is a 23 handwritten document marked Consultation Report, 24 September 8th, 1995. And have you got that document? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: It says down near the bottom, 2 extremities uninjured. 3 A: Yes, I see that. 4 Q: And two (2) pages over is another 5 handwritten document headed "Progress Notes", you got 6 that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And just before the date September 9 7th it says: 10 "A wound more consistent with shattered 11 glass than bullet." 12 Q: You see that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Yeah. But in any event no effort was 15 made to remove the bullet, you were just patched up and 16 sent out. But maybe it was the glass, you were patched up 17 and sent out. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: So that as far as you're concerned, 20 when you were at the hospital and you were being 21 photographed, the photographs that were taken was all of 22 the obvious physical injuries. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: So that if there were in fact 3 injuries to your hand, you -- you can't recall at this 4 time? 5 A: No, I can't. 6 Q: Now that's -- that takes us up to 7 approximately 4:23 a.m. And at 4:37 it is said that your 8 mother and your grandmother visited you. Do you recall 9 your mother and grandmother visiting you? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: No, I don't. 13 Q: And do you recall making any 14 telephone calls from the hospital? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Now, during the time you were in the 17 hospital, did you always have police presence? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: So, as far as just going through very 20 quickly on the police officers, first there's police 21 officer number 1 when you are -- when you're taken into 22 the ambulance; police officer number 2, Carolyn Kennedy 23 (phonetic) when you're at the hospital; police officer 24 number 3, Officer Evans from the Ident Department and -- 25 and later on you were taken by two (2) more police

1 officers to the back of the hospital and onto Strathroy 2 Detachment? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Do you recall at any time asking the 5 police officers to call Ron George for you as your 6 lawyer? 7 A: Later -- later on in the evening. 8 Q: Later on in the evening? Now, as far 9 as the sequence is concerned, you see, Mr. Roland took 10 you through the -- the narrative as he -- as -- as it's 11 called and we know that he speaks to the police documents 12 and he says, as you say, that at about 4:25 p.m., at Page 13 8, he entered the room and took possession of your 14 effects. 15 Do you remember a police officer entering 16 the room and taking your clothing and other things? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Did you get the clothing back? 19 A: Months down the road. 20 Q: Months after? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: So, how -- what -- what were dressed 23 in when you left the hospital? 24 A: Just my hospital clothes, a gown and 25 kind of like a bib -- a hospital bib, a shirt.

1 Q: I see. Did they take your underwear? 2 A: Pardon me? 3 Q: Did the police take your underwear? 4 A: I can't remember if they did or not. 5 Q: I see, but they took, like, your 6 slacks, took your shoes -- 7 A: And my -- 8 Q: -- and your shirt? 9 A: -- shirt, yeah. 10 Q: And it goes on, it is after they have 11 taken your possessions that you were taken to the 12 interrogation centre and the -- the interrogation room? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And at that point is when that 15 statement, which appears under Tab 2, was given. Am I 16 correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: As far as this statement is 19 concerned, I would just like to clear up something. Was 20 that given as a statement -- sorry, why did you give that 21 statement? 22 A: I was told I wasn't able to leave 23 until I gave a statement. 24 Q: I see. So, as the sequence goes, 25 according to the chronology, you're picked up, police

1 presence all the time throughout the early morning of 2 September 7th. Correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And throughout the day of September 5 7th. Correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And into the night of September 7th. 8 Correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then you gave the statement under 11 the circumstances that you've indicated to the 12 Commissioner. Correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Yeah. And after that statement was 15 given is when you had the opportunity to call Ron Jones? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now, in the statement, which appears 18 under Tab 2, there's no mention of really what happened 19 down at the fight. Was there reason for that? 20 A: Yes, he quit writing when I got to 21 that part. 22 Q: I see. So, this statement really 23 reflects a portion of what you said to the police 24 officers rather than a full and complete statement? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Now, when the statement was given, 2 was it taken down by hand? 3 A: Yes, he had a -- a notepad. 4 Q: And do you know whether or not they 5 had tape-recording facilities, if it was also recorded? 6 A: I don't believe so. 7 Q: I see. Now, this statement, were you 8 asked to read it and sign it or they just took the 9 statement and -- and this is what you see as an end 10 result? 11 A: I believe I signed it. 12 Q: You believe you signed something? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Yeah. Now, I must take you back a 15 bit to -- to events before this, Mr. Cottrelle. Mr. 16 Roland discussed with you the idea of getting the bus, 17 somebody yelling get the bus; you recall that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And now, who had driven the bus down 20 to the Park earlier that evening; was it you or somebody 21 else? 22 A: Somebody else. 23 Q: So when they said, Get the bus, I 24 take it that nobody was speaking specifically to you? 25 A: No.

1 Q: So you went and you got the bus. 2 Now, there is some suggestion -- and your -- that it was 3 for retaliation. You -- your response was you couldn't 4 speak for somebody else. 5 Tell us about yourself. You hear somebody 6 yell, Get the bus. You go, you get in the bus and you 7 start it. Now, what is in your mind? Why were you 8 getting the bus? 9 MR. IAN ROLAND: Sorry. My Friend 10 misstates the evidence. He didn't start it. He said it 11 was already running. 12 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Very sorry. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: No intention to 15 misstate the evidence -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 17 That's fine. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 20 Q: So, the bus is there and it's 21 running? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 23 running. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25

1 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 2 Q: Get the bus. Now, you go into the 3 bus which is already running, and what is -- what is your 4 mind set? What are you proposing to do now that you got 5 into the bus? 6 A: To help Slippery. Bernard. 7 Q: And did you plan to help Slippery? 8 A: Just try to break the police up and 9 hope that the guys can get up there to help him. 10 Q: Thank you. Now, later on I expect 11 that when the SIU witnesses are back we'll be able to get 12 actual distances between the gateway and where the bus 13 stopped. 14 What is your best estimate, Mr. Cottrelle, 15 of the distance from where the bus exited the Park to 16 where it stopped just before that driveway? 17 A: A hundred and fifty (150) feet maybe. 18 Q: Yeah. And during that hundred and 19 fifty (150) feet you had to go -- come out -- come out of 20 the -- the Park, drive a distance, and be able to stop 21 within that distance? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: So, at top speed how fast do you 24 think you were travelling? 25 A: Ten (10) to fifteen (15) kilometres

1 an hour. 2 Q: Yeah. And as far as the bus is 3 concerned, how many gears did it have? 4 A: Five (5) -- four (4) -- four (4) 5 gears and then it had one (1) -- the first gear was very 6 low. 7 Q: So, it had a very low first gear -- 8 A: Yeah. It's like -- 9 Q: -- and four (4) general driving 10 gears? 11 A: Yeah. The first gear is like a 12 creeper gear -- 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: -- it barely even moves. 15 Q: And how many -- can you recall how 16 many gear -- sorry. When you -- when you left the Park, 17 would it have been in the first gear, the creeper gear? 18 A: Yeah. Up until I pushed the dumpster 19 out of the way. 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: Because it was sitting in real loose 22 sand. 23 Q: So, you were in your creeper gear 24 because it was loose sand and up until you pushed the 25 dumpster away?

1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And then, what other gears would you 3 have transferred to? 4 A: Second, and probably close to when I 5 was ready to stop I might have put it in third. 6 Q: You put it to third when you were 7 ready to stop? 8 A: Yes, I -- I believe so. 9 Q: But, in any event, you weren't going 10 in excess of twenty (20) kilometres per hour? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And you were able to stop the vehicle 13 without really any major collision? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now, when you were being transported 16 to the hospital, were you on a stretcher or on a gurney 17 of some kind? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And were you strapped down? 20 A: I can't remember. 21 Q: But you were on your back? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: So you're there, sixteen (16) years 24 of age on your back in a stretcher -- on a stretcher with 25 a police officer and no idea where he'll take -- you are

1 going. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: How did you find that experience? 4 A: I was -- I was pretty scared. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: In response to questioning by Mr. 9 Roland and I'll just go through the questions, it is at 10 page 286 -- sorry, 268 and 269 of the transcript. The 11 question was, I assume -- sorry, I'll back up -- at 12 around line 14: 13 "Now you told Mr. Millar on the 6th of 14 September that you gathered or you 15 might have gathered sticks and rocks 16 and moved them to along the fence line, 17 right? 18 And your answer was, Yeah. 19 The next question: 20 "And I -- I assumed the reason you did 21 this is you were anticipating that you 22 were going to need them for the purpose 23 of a fight , right? 24 Your answer: 25 "Yeah defending ourselves.

1 The next question: 2 "Yeah, these weapons -- sorry, these 3 were weapons that you were going to use 4 for the purpose of fighting somebody? 5 A: Defending our territory, yes." 6 Now what I'm getting at is there are two 7 (2) things. Now why you spoke about defending 8 yourselves? Now what would have triggered in your mind 9 the need to defend yourself? 10 A: The police buildup in the area. The 11 fact that they were evacuating cottages along West 12 Ipperwash. 13 Q: So is it fair to say that from the 14 time of the occupation of the built-up area in July, you 15 saw no need to be prepared to defend yourself until the 16 police activity on the 6th of September? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: You further spoke about, Defending 19 our territory. Why were you saying, Defending our 20 territory? Exactly what land were you talking about in 21 your territory? 22 A: The Provincial Park as well as the 23 military -- the Military Base. 24 Q: Can you speak a little bit, sir. 25 A: Provincial Park as well as the

1 Military -- Military Base. 2 Q: I see. Now you indicated in direct 3 testimony to Mr. Millar that you had stayed after the -- 4 after the experience of the 6th and 7th of September 5 1995, you had pretty much stayed in the Camp? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And Mr. Roland was good enough to 8 draw your attention to the hunting matter with yourself 9 and Kevin Simon. 10 A: Marlin. 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: Marlin. 13 Q: Marlin Simon? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: With yourself and Marlin Simon, 16 sorry. Now were there other instances that you could 17 recall that you strayed from the -- the camp to the 18 built-up area? 19 A: Not that I can remember. 20 Q: And that hunting incident with Marlin 21 is there a reason why you didn't tell that to Mr. Millar? 22 A: I had forgotten about it. 23 Q: Thank you. Now Ms. McAleer was good 24 enough to address five (5) matters with you and I don't 25 propose to go through all five (5). At page 279 of the

1 transcript, she was speaking to you about burial sites. 2 And she said to you: 3 "Okay, well see, you are the first 4 witness to come forward and indicate that you have 5 specific information about burial sites on the road in 6 front of the maintenance shed. No other witness has 7 testified that to -- to that today." 8 So I -- I want to be fair to you, are 9 you absolutely certain that your 10 grandfather specifically referred to 11 that area and you answered, Yes, there 12 is no question." 13 The recorded exchange? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yeah. Now, Mr. Commissioner, this is 16 something that perhaps I should have brought to your 17 attention, that the -- the transcript for October the 18 20th, pages 50 and 51, address this matter where the -- 19 the Witness indicated that there was -- I would just read 20 through: 21 "A video was being played --" 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps my Friend 23 could identify the witness for everyone and who was 24 testif -- whose evidence he's referring to, but I might 25 also ask my Friend if -- is there a question in this for

1 this Witness? This is -- he's referring to some earlier 2 testimony and perhaps he'll explain it to us, but the -- 3 I haven't heard any question. 4 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, it 5 might very well not be a question, but it goes to what 6 was asked of the Witness and how it was put to him and 7 I'm just drawing to your attention that the question, as 8 put to the Witness, was not reflective of the evidence as 9 stated in the question. Okay? I -- I can just draw it - 10 - well, maybe it's something for argument at a later date 11 and that's fine. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 13 there's something for argument. 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: That's fine. I can 15 deal with it in argument. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't see 17 how this Witness can help us in that respect. 18 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Well, I wouldn't argue 19 that with you, Mr. Commissioner, because I can deal with 20 it later. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You 22 mentioned October 20th, at Page 50 and 51, that's of our 23 transcript? 24 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Yes, of your 25 transcript. Yes.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We can take 2 a look at that. 3 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: And it will be helpful 4 at that time, you see, because we were looking at the 5 video and the video shows the area that we are -- you're 6 talking about, but the matter I'll deal with in argument. 7 Now, Mr. -- 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, if My Friend 9 wants to show -- if my Friend wants to clear something up 10 with the Witness, I have no -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- objection if he 13 wants to show the video to ask him a question, or if he 14 wants to ask him a question based on the transcript. My 15 point is, simply reading the transcript to the Witness 16 without a question, doesn't advance -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: For my 18 benefit. 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's saying 21 it's for my benefit, so I -- I agree with you. 22 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, 23 there's no problem. I will just leave it up to Mr. 24 Millar when he's wrapping up. He can show him the video. 25 I think he understands what the problem is.

1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I don't. 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I will clarify at the 3 break. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 6 Q: Now, tell me something, Mr. 7 Cottrelle. You indicated to Ms. McAleer that one (1) of 8 the purposes for occupying the Park was because of the 9 burial sites? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: What were the other purposes? 12 A: That the way the Park was obtained by 13 MNR and the DND that I -- I -- everybody thought that it 14 wasn't right. 15 A: Yeah. Now, finally I want to deal 16 with what was referred to as a rock concert and I will 17 pass up a copy of -- 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's Exhibit P-128. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 24 Q: Mr. Cottrelle, had you seen one (1) 25 of these flyers before now?

31
  1                 A:   Yes.
  2                 Q:   And let us just go through this flyer
  3  for a minute.  It says at the top, "In the ex-Ipperwash
  4  Provincial Park," and it reads:
  5                   "Renegade Aazhoodena Jamboree, 1998 2nd 
  6                    Annual"
  7                 Do ...
  8  
  9                       (BRIEF PAUSE)
 10  
 11                 MR. DERRY MILLAR:   Mr. Commissioner, I'm
 12  just going to put that up on the screen for everyone's
 13  benefit.
 14  
 15                       (BRIEF PAUSE)
 16  
 17  CONTINUED BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS:   
 18                 Q:   So now we've got the flyer on the
 19  screen.  I'll just start again.  He says:
 20                   "In the Ex-Ipperwash Provincial Park, 
 21                   Renegade Aazhoodena Jamboree, 1998 2nd 
 22                   Annual."
 23                 Did you recall one (1) of these jamborees
 24  before?
 25                 A:   Yes.

1 Q: And were there any problems at that 2 first jamboree? 3 A: No. 4 Q: And where was the celebration -- 5 where was the jamboree held in relation to the -- to what 6 was the Provincial Park? 7 A: It'd be the northern -- northern end 8 of the Park, northwest. 9 Q: The northwest? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: That's just the extension of the 12 Sandy parking lot? 13 A: No, it's -- it was right beside 14 Matheson Drive, that end. 15 Q: The -- the -- 16 A: Matheson Drive, that'd be right on 17 the inside of the Park at Matheson Drive. 18 Q: I see, but that would be away from 19 the -- the area where there were burial sites? 20 A: Yes, the other end of the Park. 21 Q: The other end of the Park, yeah. And 22 it says here, Friday only, Thundermug. What's a 23 Thundermug? 24 A: It was a band. 25 Q: I see. So there was a band,

1 Thundermug on Friday, and were -- and these other four 2 (4), are those names of other bands? 3 A: Yes, from different Reserves. 4 Q: I see. Thundermug came from where? 5 A: London. 6 Q: And Out Numbered was from where? 7 A: London area too, I believe. 8 Q: Dust till Dawn from where? 9 A: Oneida First Nations. 10 Q: Electric Mistress? 11 A: Oneida First Nations. 12 Q: Heckel and Jeckel? 13 A: Walpole Island. 14 Q: Larry Bird and the Tweeters? 15 A: Sarnia Reserve. 16 Q: And then it continued to -- there 17 appears to be, something's blocked out, but it looks as 18 it would read. 19 "Food and Beverage available free." 20 Available, free something: 21 "Come and --" 22 There's a word that's missing, but it's 23 obvious that the next one (1) is, "Solidarity Day." 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now tell us about Solidarity Day,

1 what was this? 2 A: It's a day for First Nations people 3 to celebrate their solidarity. 4 Q: Right. 5 A: Different Reserves have different 6 outings. 7 Q: Right. And it was on the bottom: 8 "Zero (0) tolerance on drunk driving 9 and stupidity." 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And the last part said what: 12 "Leave your attitude at home." 13 A: Yes. Ochimi G'wetch (phonetic). 14 Q: Ochimi G'wetch. I see. Holding this 15 jamboree down in the Park, why was this not offensive to 16 the presence of the burial sites? Explain to the 17 Commissioner? 18 A: Well, my own opinion, it was at a 19 totally different end of the Park and people were -- we 20 had a couple of meetings on what everybody felt about it. 21 We had, like, the whole community was -- we agree to have 22 the celebration on Solidarity Day. 23 Q: I see. Now, Mr. Cottrelle, those 24 are about the end of my questions, but I've got more to 25 just wrap-ups. Could you perhaps explain to the

1 Commissioner why you thought it necessary to be involved 2 in the occupation of those lands -- the Aazhoodena lands? 3 A: Myself, I felt -- I don't know how 4 you would say it, kind of an obligation towards my 5 grandfather. They moved off the territory and everything 6 I've done, I was rewarded with seeing my grandpa come 7 home and he passed away on his homeland and we buried him 8 on his homeland and I felt very strong about what I did, 9 having seen that. 10 Q: Now, as far as this occupation and 11 going into occupation even up at the range section is 12 concerned, were you trying to get property to be 13 transferred to your name, personally? 14 A: No. 15 Q: When you moved from the range to the 16 built-up area, were you trying to acquire those lands for 17 yourself? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And as far as what was Ipperwash 20 Provincial Park, were you trying to acquire those lands 21 for yourself? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Is it fair to say that this was part 24 of a bigger and a collective movement to bring attention 25 to what your people saw as outstanding matters to be

1 dealt with by Government? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Now, as far as the lands are 4 concerned, could you just describe just the borders of 5 the lands that we are talking about? 6 A: Like, measurements, kind of? 7 Q: No, just the -- just the -- the 8 roads. 9 A: Outer Drive. 10 Q: Outer Drive? 11 A: Up to Highway 21 -- 12 Q: Yeah? 13 A: -- and down Highway 21 to Army Camp 14 Road and right down to the lake. 15 Q: Yeah. Now, up in the northeast 16 corner by Outer Drive and Lake Huron, there's a section 17 that they call Port Franks. Do you know that area? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And my understanding is that there 20 are some private cottages within the lands you've 21 described up in that area. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Now, did you have any plans to move 24 into those cottage areas? 25 A: No.

1 Q: Now, with respect just to the 2 outstanding issues, with respect to government and how 3 you moved off the -- how your people moved off the land - 4 - is there anything else you'd like the Commissioner to 5 know? 6 A: I can't think of anything offhand. 7 Q: Okay. Now, let's just narrow it down 8 to the events from the 4th to the 7th of September 1995. 9 Now, this thing escalated and resulted in a lot of shots 10 being fired, somebody dead and people -- and other people 11 hurt. How could that have been avoided, in your view? 12 A: Deal with the -- the agreements that 13 was put in place between our people and the Government. 14 I feel that they weren't honoured and respected and when 15 things finally got some light shed on them, I feel that 16 the Government tried to hide them and this could have all 17 been avoided, I believe, if all the old agreements were 18 honoured. 19 Q: Thank you very much, Mr. Cottrelle, 20 those are my questions. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 22 very much. Mr. Millar...? 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, if I 24 could just take thirty (30) seconds, I need to get 25 something that I don't have here.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And then I have a few 3 questions. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 RE-DIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: Mr. Cottrelle, I have a couple of 9 questions. 10 The first is, I'm just trying to 11 understand the -- how many gears were in the bus and the 12 gears that you used on the evening of September 6th. You 13 told My Friend, Mr. Roland, when he was asking you some 14 questions that there were three (3) lower gears than 15 there were higher -- than there were regular gears. 16 Do you recall that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And did this transmission have an 19 auxiliary transmission? How did it have three (3) lower 20 gears and then regular gears? 21 A: The -- the three (3) lower -- it had 22 five (5) altogether. 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: The first gear was a creeper gear, it 25 was geared real low. Second gear is real low. Third is

1 fairly low. Then a fourth and a fifth, your fifth gear 2 would be, like, your cruising overdrive kind of deal. 3 Q: Okay. So, that it really had five 4 (5) gears, it's just that the first three (3) gears were 5 very low? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And so, you were in -- you 8 started in your -- 9 A: First. 10 Q: -- first gear, you used that to push 11 the dumpster away; that's what you told Mr. -- My Friend 12 Mr. Ross? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And then you went into second and up 15 to third? 16 A: Yeah. By the time I stopped I would 17 have been going into third. 18 Q: Then the -- there's an -- an issue 19 has arisen about bandages on your right hand, which I 20 didn't appreciate was an issue until Mr. Roland raised 21 the issue and Mr. Ross then dealt with it. 22 But I would like to show you two (2) 23 photographs from the photograph collection. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 Q: And -- and I'll show you the 2 photograph in a moment. But do you recall when you went 3 to the hospital having an I -- an intravenous line 4 inserted in your -- on your body? 5 A: No, I don't 6 Q: And it's my understanding there was 7 but we'll deal with the medical chart with the medical 8 witnesses. But I want to show you a photograph -- 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: The photograph that I'm showing you 13 is a photograph, Mr. Cottrelle, taken on the 7th day of 14 September at the time the other photographs that we've 15 referred to yesterday were taken and this is identified 16 as Photograph 15-0A and you will see in your right hand a 17 small bandage. 18 And I've got another picture that I will 19 show you -- do rec -- you'll see there's a small bandage 20 on your right hand, do you recall that bandage, Mr. 21 Cottrelle? 22 A: No, I don't. I -- I don't remember. 23 Q: And if you don't remember I take it 24 you can't tell us how long that bandage -- when that 25 bandage was placed on your hand?

1 A: No, I don't. 2 Q: Perhaps we could mark as the next 3 exhibit and I'll have to create a CD rom for the 4 electronic versions, but there'll be two (2) photographs. 5 It's photograph ,15-0A and 15-3A and it would be Exhibit 6 P-129. 7 The Registrar: P-129, Your Honour. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-129: 2 Photographs, September 07/95 10 1) 15-0A, 2) 15.3A plus CD-Rom. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: Then -- in response to a question by 14 Ms. McAleer, you referred to -- she asked you where the 15 concert was held and at page 285, lines -- between lines 16 3 and 16 you responded that it was in the -- it would be 17 north -- northwest or northeast and you've told My 18 Friend, Mr. Ross, that it was in the northwest. 19 Using the copy of Exhibit P-40 that's up 20 on the screen, can you point out with the laser, Mr. 21 Cottrelle, where the concert was held? 22 A: I guess it would be this area right 23 here. 24 Q: And you're pointing to the area in 25 the northwest corner of the Park just to the west of

1 Matheson Ro -- Drive, west of Matheson Drive and it's the 2 north-east corner of the Park, but the area on this map 3 is simply to the west of Matheson Drive, just up north 4 along the -- towards the -- just by the beach? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And with respect to the -- if I could 7 ask Mr. Registrar if you could give Mr. Cottrelle a copy 8 of Exhibit P-124. 9 A: I have a copy right here. 10 Q: Oh, you have the copy there? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Could you mark on the copy of P-124 13 where the -- the concert took place in 1998 and did the 14 concert in 1997 take place in the same place? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I'm not certain which number 17 we're up to on -- 18 THE REGISTRAR: Number 3 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 21 Q: It would be Number 3, so could you 22 just put a circle in that area where the concert was held 23 and mark Number 3 on it? 24 A: Okay. 25 Q: Then, I just want to clarify one

1 other thing, and that's the -- My Friend Ms. McAleer 2 asked you about the -- where the burial grounds were 3 located and she said the road in front of the maintenance 4 building and using this copy of Exhibit P-40, that's the 5 same as P-124, can you tell us, is the road that you're 6 talking about right in front of the maintenance building, 7 i.e., the -- if you drive into the maintenance building, 8 you're on that road? 9 Or, does it run north from the maintenance 10 building up to the reservoir and the pump house? 11 A: Yeah, it runs north/south. 12 Q: It runs north/south? But it stops 13 before it gets to the maintenance building? 14 A: No. The driveway for the maintenance 15 -- maintenance building turns into the road. 16 Q: Okay. But the road that's blocked 17 off is not the road by the maintenance build -- in front 18 of the -- at the maintenance building? 19 A: Yeah, it's blocked from the 20 maintenance building to the reservoir. 21 Q: Just to the north of the maintenance 22 building to the reservoir? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And it's the area -- in that area 25 north of the maintenance building to the reservoir in

1 which the -- you were told that, by your grandfather, 2 that the burial grounds are located? 3 A: Yes. There's a -- I believe this is 4 the crick that runs through there. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: There's a ridge that starts right 7 about where the "P" is here and it runs along that -- 8 along that crick. And I believe it's -- it's right in 9 this area right in here. 10 Q: So could you mark on Exhibit P-124, I 11 know it's a small map, but the area that you are told by 12 your grandfather the burial grounds were and mark -- put 13 a Number 4 on it? 14 A: (INDICATING) 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Just trying to clear -- if there's 19 confusion that Mr. Ross intended for, as he said, 20 Commission Counsel to deal with, I'm not certain what it 21 is and if there's a video that would clear it up, then I 22 would like to show this witness the video before he 23 leaves. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 Q: Mr. Ross is just trying to -- 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: P-66 I think it is. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. Registrar, could I 7 have P-66 please? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: What I'm showing you on the screen is 13 a copy of P-66, which is a video that was taken on 14 September 6th, and it's at 11:17 where we're looking at 15 now. But we need to go . 16 A: Getting dizzy. 17 Q: Pardon me? 18 A: Getting dizzy. 19 20 (VIDEO PLAYING) 21 22 Q: In this picture, which is at -- it's 23 frame 11-18, the area that's shown in the upper part of 24 the -- of the video is the -- in front of the Park store, 25 is that correct?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And the sandy parking lot would be on 3 the upper right hand corner off the -- off the -- off the 4 screen. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And the car that's in the upper right 7 hand corner, it looks like a blue car, is that pointing - 8 - what direction is that pointing? Is that pointing 9 direct -- A: West. 10 Q: -- west? And actually this 11 particular video, where at 11:20 on September 6th, shows, 12 on the upper left part, behind the trees -- and if I 13 could get -- the area that there is a clump of trees and 14 then you -- there's a building just behind it. 15 That, in the left part of the frame, at 16 the top, that's the Park store? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And the -- there's a parking lot that 19 runs north from the Park store, or one (1), two (2), 20 three (3) parking lots? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And the parking lot, there's a line 23 of trees in this frame that separate the parking lot 24 that's closest to the fence line from the second parking 25 lot; is that correct?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And the area that we -- in front of - 3 - to the north of the Park store, was an area -- a paved 4 area? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And in this frame there's the car we 7 looked at a few minutes ago, parked in -- to the -- in -- 8 on the road just to the north of the -- of the paved 9 area, or perhaps it's paving stones, to the north of the 10 Park store; is that correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And then there's an area, a grass 13 area to the east of the paving stones to the north of the 14 Park store; is that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And that's where your picnic was 17 held? 18 A: Yes. 19 20 (VIDEO PLAYING) 21 22 Q: And in this picture that -- it's at 23 11:21, we see on the left side of the frame the Park 24 store; is that correct? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Immediately to the right is a row of 2 trees? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And then the -- immediately to the 5 right are -- on this frame there are two (2) vehicles and 6 the road that leads west towards East Parkway Drive -- 7 the sandy parking lot and then East Parkway Drive? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And at the top of the frame is -- can 10 you tell us what that is -- it's? 11 A: I can't make it out. 12 Q: But is that at the approximate area 13 of the exit from the Park to the sandy parking lot? 14 A: Yes. 15 16 (VIDEO PLAYING)) 17 18 Q: And on the screen at 11-22 there's a 19 frame that shows two (2) cars side by side. Do you see 20 that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And do you recognize this area? 23 A: It'd be north of the maintenance 24 shed. 25 Q: North of the maintenance shed running

1 towards the lake? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And so on this frame the maintenance 4 shed is on the top part of -- it's off -- off the screen 5 but it would be immediately at the top of this frame? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And is -- this road, does it lead 8 down -- is this the road that leads from the maintenance 9 building down to the road that runs in front of the 10 reservoir and pump house? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And is it the road -- this road 13 that's blocked off? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And at the -- at the top of the frame 16 where it narrows beyond the narrowing point, it's open in 17 front of the maintenance building? 18 A: Yes. It's just the driveway parking 19 lot. 20 Q: The driveway parking lot by the 21 maintenance building is open? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: That hasn't been closed off? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. Thank you. Those are my

1 questions, Commissioner. Mr. Cottrelle, I would like to 2 thank you on behalf of the Commission very much for 3 coming and giving your evidence and you're free to go. 4 Thank you. 5 A: You're welcome. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much, Mr. Cottrelle, for coming and giving us your 8 evidence. Thank you. I think we'll take a break before 9 we call the next witness. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, sir. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take a 12 morning break now. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 14 for fifteen (15) minutes. 15 16 --- Upon recessing at 10:12 a.m. 17 --- Upon resuming at 10:30 a.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 20 resumed, please be seated. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 23 Commission calls at its next witness, Tina George. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 25 morning, Ms. George.

1 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 2 3 TINA RENE GEORGE, Sworn: 4 5 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: Good morning. 7 A: Good morning. 8 Q: Ms. George, do you sometimes go by 9 the surname or have you ever adopted the surname Plain? 10 A: Just when I sign school papers for my 11 children. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: In the past, not so much now. 14 Q: Thank you. What is your current 15 place of residence? 16 A: 9356 Army Camp Road. 17 Q: And is that in the -- the former Camp 18 Ipperwash? 19 A: Yes, it is. 20 Q: What is your current occupation? 21 A: I'm a -- a full-time mother. 22 Q: Tell me the names of your parents? 23 A: Muriel, or Elsie Muriel George and 24 Abraham George. 25 Q: And did your father go by the

1 nickname Hamster from time to time? 2 A: Yes, he did. 3 Q: Thank you. Is your father deceased? 4 A: Yes, he is. 5 Q: Can you tell us the names of your 6 paternal grandparents? 7 A: Phoebe Smith (phonetic) and William 8 Smith. 9 Q: And -- 10 A: Robert, from my dad -- 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: -- is Laura Ann Nancy Dunbar 13 (phonetic) and Robert George Senior. 14 Q: Those were your father's parents and 15 the first grandparents you referred to were your mother's 16 parents? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: All right. Thank you. And what was 19 the name of your father's grandfather? 20 A: My father's grandfather? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: His name was Albert George. 23 Q: Do you know where your great- 24 grandfather Albert George is buried? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Where is that? 2 A: In the former Provincial Park, 3 amongst the big willow trees. 4 Q: And approximately where are the 5 willow trees, that you are referring to, in the Ipperwash 6 Provincial Park? 7 A: They're on the east side of the pump 8 house that is located on the Stoney Point namesake. 9 Q: And when you say "the Stoney Point 10 namesake", can you just clarify what -- what structure or 11 what piece of land you're referring to? 12 A: On the water's edge where there's 13 flat stone -- 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: -- on the beach, in front of the pump 16 house. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: But in the former Provincial Park. 19 Q: The Provincial Park beach? And when 20 you say "namesake", are you referring to a jetting out of 21 a piece of land into the water that was identified as 22 Stoney Point? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. As distinct from the Kettle 25 Point namesake?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. Thank you. Now, how -- 3 how did you learn of the place of your great- 4 grandfather's burial? 5 A: My father told me long ago. 6 Q: Do you know whether any other 7 aboriginal people are buried in the -- within the 8 boundaries of the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 9 A: Yes. He also said that Fletcher was. 10 Q: Your father told you this? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And who is Fletcher? 13 A: His -- his younger brother. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: I believe younger. 16 Q: Fletcher George? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Brother of Albert or of your father? 19 A: Brother of my father. 20 Q: Thank you. Okay. Did your father 21 tell you where Fletcher was buried? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Other than saying it was in the Park? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: All right. And are you aware of any

1 other aboriginal people buried within the boundaries of 2 the Provincial Park? 3 A: Other than an old Warrior that he 4 mentioned, he didn't give him a name. 5 Q: All right. And the old Warrior, did 6 your father tell you what First Nation the Warrior had 7 belonged to? 8 A: No, he never. 9 Q: All right. Did he tell you where 10 within the Park the old Warrior was buried? 11 A: Around the vicinity where Fletcher is 12 supposed to be buried. 13 Q: And I don't know that -- did you 14 provide us with that location? I know you said the 15 willow trees, with respect to Albert, but I'm not sure 16 you told us where within the Park. 17 A: It would be down north of the 18 maintenance building. 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: And then between the pump house. 21 Q: Yes. Between the pump house and the 22 maintenance building, -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- and that stretch of land? 25 A: Hmm hmm.

1 Q: All right. Do you have any siblings? 2 Do you have any sisters or brothers? 3 A: Yes, I do. 4 Q: Can you name them for us, please? 5 A: The youngest one is Robert, and then 6 Elwood, and older than me would be Stork and then 7 Roderick, Mary, Joy, Beverly Franklin, Sandra Dale, Vera, 8 Carl Leon, six (6) brothers and five (5) sis -- four (4) 9 sisters. 10 Q: Yes, thank you. And your brother, 11 Stewart George, is he sometimes known as Worm? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And your brother, Roderick George, is 14 he sometimes known as Judas? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And tell me the names of your 17 children, please. 18 A: Phoebe Sarah Bronwyn Plain and Julie 19 Elizabeth Plain and Dale Timothy George Plain. 20 Q: And to your knowledge, have we heard 21 testimony from Dale Plain at this Inquiry? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Thank you. And how old was your 24 daughter, Phoebe, at the time of the occupation of the 25 Park, in September of 1995?

1 A: She would be five and a half (5 1/2), 2 she was born in 1990. 3 Q: And how old was your daughter, Julie, 4 at that time? 5 A: A little past two and a half (2 1/2) 6 months. 7 Q: Two and a half (2 1/2) months? 8 A: Or two and a half (2 1/2) years. 9 Q: Thank you. Was your father, Abraham, 10 formerly a resident on Indian Reserve Number 43, which 11 was subsequently appropriated as Camp Ipperwash? 12 A: Yes, he was. 13 Q: And did your dad ever talk to you 14 about the circumstances under which he had to leave the 15 Reserve? 16 A: Yes, he did. 17 Q: Can you tell us what you learned from 18 your father. 19 A: He told me that they had to pack up 20 and move. 21 Q: Did he tell you why? 22 A: That the Army was going to use it. 23 Q: Okay. Did he ever speak to you of 24 the circumstances under which that Reserve might be 25 returned?

1 A: After they got done using -- after 2 the war, it was supposed to be returned back. 3 Q: Where were you raised? 4 A: In Kettle Point. 5 Q: Kettle Point Reserve? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. And did you know Dudley 8 George? 9 A: Yes, I did. 10 Q: And what relationship was he to you? 11 A: He was a very close cousin, almost 12 like a brother. We used to chum around -- when we were 13 small we used to play together, but we used to chum 14 around since we were teenagers, young, about the age 15, 15 I was. 16 Q: How long have you been involved in 17 efforts to reclaim the appropriated Reserves? 18 A: I'd say in my teen years, since my 19 teenage years. 20 Q: And why -- why did you become 21 involved in efforts to reclaim the Reserve? 22 A: I felt it was something I wanted to 23 do. 24 Q: Why? 25 A: For -- for peace of mind.

1 Q: All right. Did anyone encourage you 2 to become involved in these efforts in your teenage 3 years? 4 A: No. 5 Q: What types of activities did you 6 participate with respect to these efforts? 7 A: I attended protests outside the camp 8 on, if I can remember correctly, two (2) separate 9 occasions. 10 Q: And do you remember approximately 11 what years those protests were carried on? 12 A: I'm sure one was before 1990 and one, 13 possibly, in 1990 also. 14 Q: What was the nature of these 15 protests? What actually happened during these protests? 16 A: Like any other protest we walked back 17 and forth in front of the gate. 18 Q: The main gate at the Army camp? 19 A: Yes. And held signs. 20 Q: All right. What types of things did 21 you put on your signs? 22 A: Give our land back, stuff like that. 23 Q: Did you have any involvement with 24 members of the Ontario Provincial Police or members of 25 the military during the protests that you participated

1 in? 2 A: Not at the main gate, not outside the 3 gate. 4 Q: All right. Did you -- 5 A: I never talked to any military people 6 there. 7 Q: I'm sorry, say that again. 8 A: I never talked to any military people 9 outside the main gate of the Army camp. 10 Q: All right. How about members of the 11 Ontario Provincial Police? 12 A: I don't recall talking to any police 13 during those protests outside the main gate of the Army 14 camp. 15 Q: Were you involved in -- on any 16 negotiating committees in relation to efforts to either 17 return Indian Reserve 43 or in relation to compensation 18 for that? 19 A: I -- I attended one (1) meeting they 20 had at Kettle Point community centre. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: And I believe it was the very first 23 meeting that the Department of National Defence wanted to 24 hear from the people. And when I walked into that 25 community centre, I find Stoney Point people were on the

1 right side as I was going in the door, the Stoney Point 2 people would be on the right side and I found mostly 3 Kettle Point people on the left side. 4 Q: Okay. Of the room? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what side did you go to? 7 A: The right side. 8 Q: And why is that? Why did you go to 9 the right -- why is it you associated yourself with the 10 right side? 11 A: I seen my aunt Melva and my uncle Dan 12 sitting there, and a few other people -- 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: -- and. 15 Q: Okay. Now this meeting that you went 16 to, can you tell us approximately when that took place? 17 A: I think it would be before 1982. 18 Q: And why do you say that? 19 A: Because they were supposed to have a 20 vote and that vote was held in the year 1982. 21 Q: All right. So this meeting was a 22 pre-cursor to that vote? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And what was the vote for? 25 A: To accept compensation.

1 Q: From? 2 A: The Department of National Defence 3 and/or the government. 4 Q: In relation to what? 5 A: Compensation for the lands. 6 Q: Are you talking about Indian Reserve 7 43? 8 A: Yes, Stoney Point. 9 Q: Okay. Now, was your -- did you 10 receive any advice as to how you should or should not 11 vote in that compensation vote? 12 A: Yes, from my father. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: He said to vote no. 15 Q: Did he tell you why? 16 A: We don't want to accept money, we 17 don't want to sell our land. 18 Q: All right. And so, he wasn't looking 19 for compensation? 20 A: No, he wasn't. 21 Q: What was he looking for? 22 A: He was actually looking to go back 23 home some day. 24 Q: Did you agree with that position? 25 A: Yes, I did.

1 Q: And, to your knowledge, what was the 2 result of this vote in 1982 in relation to the offer of 3 compensation? 4 A: The result was a yes vote. 5 Q: So, it passed? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: All right. Do you have any knowledge 8 as to whether the -- the lines -- where the lines of the 9 vote fell in terms of yes versus no? 10 A: It was way over -- way past the yes 11 vote because there was more people voting from Kettle 12 Point than there was actually people who were heirs to 13 Stoney Point. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: And, at that time, if you weren't 16 living on the Reserve you could not vote. 17 Q: And was that problematic for the -- 18 some of the people who formerly resided on the Stoney 19 Point part of the Reserve? 20 A: Yes, it was. At that meeting at 21 Kettle Point Committee Centre I recall getting up and 22 voicing to Corporal Prentice (phonetic) -- I'm sure he 23 was corporal -- I looked him in the eye and said, If we 24 can't all live there, meaning Stoney Point, when we're 25 alive, then we'll all live there when we're dead.

1 Q: And -- all right. You indicated that 2 Dan George was your uncle? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did you learn anything from Dan 5 George in relation to the history of the appropriated 6 Reserve? 7 A: Him and -- him and my dad, they were 8 all saying that that was their home. 9 Q: Yes. And did you learn anything of 10 the circumstances from him with respect to whether or not 11 that land would be returned? 12 A: From Uncle Dan? 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Could you repeat that, please. 15 Q: Certainly. I'm wondering, you've 16 told us what your father told you concerning the 17 circumstances of the possible return of the Reserve; did 18 you learn anything from your uncle Dan in that respect? 19 A: Basically the same as my father would 20 tell me. 21 Q: Did you attend the burial of Dan 22 George in 1990? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: And where was that burial held? 25 A: In the old cemetery, in the bush.

1 Q: And what -- within what -- what lands 2 was the cemetery located? 3 A: Stoney Point. 4 Q: Was it then Camp Ipperwash? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. Had you been on the -- 7 onto the Army Camp Base before that event? 8 A: On the Army Camp Base? 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: I think only one (1) time I can 11 recall that I went for a job interview, to try get a job 12 with a catering company. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: And was never hired. 15 Q: And that was the only time prior to 16 1990 that you had actually been on the Army Camp Base? 17 A: I believe so. 18 Q: Had you made any efforts, prior to 19 1990 and this interview that you've told us of, to go 20 onto the Army Base land? 21 A: Before 1990? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: If you're meaning part of the bush, I 24 went with my brother Carl Leon (phonetic) to look for 25 morels.

1 Q: All right. And how old were you when 2 -- when you would do that? 3 A: I was less than twelve (12). 4 Q: All right. And morels are mushrooms? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what do you gather mushrooms or 7 the morels for? 8 A: To eat. 9 Q: Okay. Now, had you ever been advised 10 by anyone from the Military Camp, prior to 1990, that you 11 were not permitted to be on the land? 12 A: Personally, not me, no. 13 Q: Okay. Was there an incident in 1978, 14 when you were nineteen (19) years old, when you had a 15 conversation with a military personnel in relation to 16 Camp Ipperwash? And going on that land? 17 A: Was there a -- 18 Q: An incident or an event? 19 A: Prior to 1978? 20 Q: No, in 1978. 21 A: In 1978. 22 Q: When you were nineteen (19). Do you 23 recall? 24 A: 1978 was when I gave birth to my 25 first child. Was there any confrontation?

1 Q: Not -- not a confrontation. Let me - 2 - let me rephrase the question. Were you ever advised by 3 any military personnel, that you were trespassing on Camp 4 Ipperwash? 5 A: Oh, yes, I was. I had my first car 6 then and I went for a ride down, what they call Matheson 7 Drive, and I was proceeding to the beach and a military 8 personnel yelled. I heard somebody yell. And I looked 9 out the passenger window and he was standing up on a sand 10 dune, yelling for me to get out. 11 And as I recall, that my dad and my Dan 12 was stopped -- my father Abraham and my Uncle Daniel Ray, 13 Senior, were stopped at the same location and told the 14 same thing. 15 Q: All right. And was this beach part 16 of the Camp Ipperwash beach at that time? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Were you ever a member of a -- of a 19 Stony Point negotiating committee prior to 1995? 20 A: Yes, I was. 21 Q: And can you tell me when you were a 22 member of that negotiating committee, during what time 23 period? 24 A: In my young teen years. I recall 25 going to at least three (3) meetings held within houses

1 of my aunts and uncles, and if I can correctly remember, 2 there was one (1) held at the United Church on Kettle 3 Point. 4 Q: What was the main objective of the 5 group's negotiating committee? 6 A: To talk over on how we can regain our 7 lands back. 8 Q: And with respect to the definition of 9 regaining your lands back, what lands specifically were 10 discussed? 11 A: From Outer Drive to Highway 21, down 12 Army Camp Road. 13 Q: And what would be the northern 14 boundary? 15 A: The water's edge. 16 Q: Did that land include the Ipperwash 17 Provincial Park? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: What role did you play on the 20 negotiating committee? 21 A: I was just a spectator. 22 Q: Okay. And was there a name to this 23 negotiating committee? 24 A: I think just Stoney Point Committee. 25 Q: Do you know who the actual members of

1 the committee were, as opposed to the -- the spectators? 2 A: My Aunt and Uncle George, Janet 3 Cloud, Robert George, his wife, Pearl, Maynard, -- 4 Q: Maynard? 5 A: Maynard T. George. 6 Q: Yes. Thank you. And Pearl? 7 A: Pearl George is Maynard's -- Maynard 8 T.'s mother. 9 Q: Thank you. Anyone else? 10 A: There was -- there was a few more 11 people but I can't really remember right off hand. 12 Q: All right. And how long did this 13 negotiating committee -- well, when did it cease to 14 exist? 15 A: The -- the people are still there -- 16 the last -- ceased to exist -- if we get together and -- 17 and talk, then it'll still be there. 18 Q: Okay. So, are you indicating that 19 this negotiating committee still exists? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. Thank you. And what were 22 the -- to your knowledge, what were the major efforts 23 that the negotiating committee made, prior to 1995, in 24 relation to the objective of regaining the lands? 25 A: Could you repeat that.

1 Q: Sure. What -- what were the -- what 2 were the activities that the negotiating committee 3 engaged in prior to '95 to try to regain the lands? 4 A: Protests outside the main gate at the 5 Army Camp. 6 Q: Okay. Now, you called it the 7 negotiating committee; did they actually carry out any 8 negotiations with anyone? 9 A: It was mainly amongst themselves. 10 Q: All right. And how -- how were these 11 members appointed or elected to become part of the Stoney 12 Point Negotiating Committee? 13 A: They were -- I don't think that they 14 were appointed or elected. You were just -- if your 15 mother or father were heirs to the Stoney Point lands. 16 Q: All right. So, these are individuals 17 whose parents had been former residents -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- of the Indian Reserve 43, or the 20 Stoney Point land? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. Who do you believe the 23 Ipperwash Provincial Park belongs to? 24 A: My father and his People. 25 Q: And how long have you held that

1 belief? 2 A: Every since I can remember. 3 Q: Why -- what is the basis for holding 4 that belief? 5 A: It -- it's something you're born 6 with. 7 Q: And when you say it's something 8 you're born with. Are you referring to the -- the sense 9 of where -- where your ancestors lived? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. Did you take, personally, any 12 steps to reclaim the Park land as distinct from the Camp 13 Ipperwash land, prior to 1995? 14 A: To reclaim the Park lands? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: Not -- not until I went -- went onto 17 the Park myself. 18 Q: All right. So, it's fair to say that 19 the prior protests that you were involved in were 20 specifically aimed at -- 21 A: The whole area. The whole entire 22 Stoney Point within those boundaries that I mentioned, 23 from Outer Drive to Army Camp. 24 Q: The -- the placards, the posters and 25 -- that -- that you carried, would they make -- did they

1 make specific reference to a return of the Park land or 2 were they -- 3 A: No. No. They never made -- that I 4 can recall, it wasn't specifically identified that. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: The -- the words were only used, 7 Stoney Point Reserve. 8 Q: The Stoney Point Reserve? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: All right. Now, had you been to the 11 Ipperwash Provincial Park prior to September the 4th of 12 1995? 13 A: Yes. I -- I've walked that land 14 before. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: As a young child. 17 Q: Who -- who would take you there? 18 A: My -- I believe I -- I most likely 19 went myself or with one (1) of my younger cousins. 20 Q: All right. And as a teenager did you 21 go to the Park -- Park from time to time? 22 A: No. Not when there was campers in 23 there, I never. 24 Q: Why -- why is that? 25 A: Because I wasn't camping.

1 Q: Okay. Did you have to pay any type 2 of a -- a fee to go into the Park? 3 A: When I walked there on foot, I 4 believe, no I didn't. 5 Q: Okay. Are you aware that a number of 6 members of the Kettle and Stoney Point Band entered Camp 7 Ipperwash in May of 1993, and proceeded to camp there, 8 for approximately two (2) years? 9 A: Yes, I was. 10 Q: Okay. Were you part of the initial 11 group who entered onto the Camp Ipperwash lands in May of 12 1993? 13 A: The moment they did it, I wasn't 14 there, I was in Thedford, no, I wasn't. 15 Q: And were you resident in Thedford at 16 that time? 17 A: Yes, I was. 18 Q: When and how did you first learn 19 about that occupation? 20 A: I believe I heard it on the radio, on 21 the morning radio. 22 Q: All right. What was your reaction 23 when you learned of that news? 24 A: I thought to myself, right on. 25 Q: Okay. Did you visit the campsites of

1 the occupants at Camp Ipperwash? 2 A: Frequently, I did, almost every day, 3 if I could make it there. 4 Q: Almost every day you could make it 5 there? 6 A: If I could make it there, because I 7 didn't have a vehicle. 8 Q: Okay. And you had children at that 9 time? 10 A: Yes. And, excuse me, I got to back 11 up there. I did have a vehicle. It was a silver Ford 12 Tempo. 13 Q: Okay. All right. Why did you visit 14 the -- the campsite? 15 A: To -- to see everybody. 16 Q: Did you know the people there? 17 A: Yes, I did. 18 Q: And can you recall who -- who were 19 the -- the main residents at the Camp Ipperwash lands in 20 -- in 1993? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Can you tell me who they were? 23 A: Anthony O'Brien George, Marlin Simon, 24 Kevin Simon, Dave George, David Abra -- Abraham David 25 George, Clayton Morris George, my father, after, like

1 within days or -- Pearl was there, and her family, and 2 Janet, those are the main ones I remember. 3 Q: Okay. Were there any individuals who 4 were not -- did not have ancestral connections to the 5 Camp Ipperwash lands or Indian Reserve 43, who stayed 6 there? 7 A: Yeah, I remember a few people. I 8 don't know if this gentleman stayed there or not, though. 9 Q: I'm more interested in those who 10 became residents there, as opposed to visitors. 11 A: Terrence George's wife or girlfriend, 12 Edie, she was not an heir. 13 Q: Was Terrence George, an heir, as you 14 put it, and have a relationship? 15 A: I think he was, yes. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: A friend of his, Hector, or his 18 nickname would be Haywire. 19 Q: Is that Hector Gibeault? 20 A: Yeah. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: That's what I -- about how much I can 25 recall.

1 Q: All right. Thank you. Do you recall 2 seeing Clifford George there? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And did you sleep over from time to 5 time during the occupation of the campsites? 6 A: From time to time, yes. 7 Q: And did you continue to visit these 8 lands up to July of 1995? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Did you ever see any helicopter 11 activity during the course of your visits? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Were you there in the evening, very 14 often? 15 A: Not too -- not too far into the 16 evening because I had a little child that had to go home 17 to bed, or actually two (2). 18 Q: Are you aware as to whether or not 19 the occupants, or some of them, would hunt from time to 20 time at the Army Camp? 21 A: Yes, I was aware of that. 22 Q: And is it fair to say that, to your 23 knowledge, some of the occumants -- occupants had rifles 24 with which to hunt, at the camp? 25 A: Yeah. They had rifles to hunt, yes.

1 Q: Do you know what kind of rifles that 2 you saw? 3 A: I didn't see any rifles. 4 Q: Okay. How are you -- 5 A: I just knew that they hunt with 6 rifles. 7 Q: All right. Fair enough. Were you a 8 hunter at the time? 9 A: Not at the time. 10 Q: Did you hunt at one time? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: And what time period was that? 13 A: It would be anywhere from 1998 to the 14 year 2002. 15 Q: And you indicated that you had a 16 close relationship with Anthony O'Brien (phonetic) 17 George, or Dudley George? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And is he one (1) of the persons that 20 you would visit from time to time? 21 A: Yes. I also stayed at his house one 22 (1) night. 23 Q: Okay. You indicated you had a close 24 relationship, that you played with him as a child, that 25 you hung out, I think you said, as a teenager; is it fair

1 to say that you basically kept up contact with him during 2 his years? 3 A: Yes. When he was on a member -- 4 actually, I think he was a president of Native Sons when 5 he was incarcerated for a couple of years, that he would 6 write me letters. 7 Q: And can you tell me what, firstly, 8 when approximately he was the president of the Native 9 Sons? Or how old he was? 10 A: In his early twenties, I -- I think. 11 Q: All right. And can you tell us also 12 then what this organization was? 13 A: The word speaks for itself. They 14 were a group of Native, young Native men, that I can 15 recall. 16 Q: And were these young Native men -- 17 what -- aside from their youth, what, if anything, did 18 they have in common? 19 A: Friendship and the fact that they 20 were aboriginal. 21 Q: Were they all from the same community 22 or from different First Nations? 23 A: I recall that they were all from 24 different First Nations. 25 Q: And within what province or --

1 A: It would have to be Ontario. 2 Q: Ontario. And can you tell me also 3 what the primary mission, if you will, or -- or 4 objectives of this organization was? 5 A: It was more likely to -- for 6 companionship. 7 Q: Do you know whether they had any 8 projects that -- while -- while Dudley George was a 9 member? 10 A: Projects, no, I -- I don't recall. 11 Q: And you indicated that he was 12 incarcerated during this period of time? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Do you know -- 15 A: He was for a couple years. 16 Q: Do you know what that was for? 17 A: I think it had something to do with 18 the old canning factory in Forest. 19 Q: Can you be a little more specific? 20 A: No, I can't because I'm not entirely 21 sure if that's -- to this day, but I'm -- I'm pretty sure 22 it was. 23 Q: All right. And you indicated that -- 24 that you received letters from Dudley George? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Did you keep any of those letters? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. Based on your -- your contact, 4 your relationship with Dudley George, can you give us a 5 description of him, how you -- how you saw him? 6 A: I saw him as a funny guy. He was 7 very easy to get along with. He had a good sense of 8 humour. He was strong-minded also. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: And he was a pleasant guy. I very 11 rarely seen him mad. 12 Q: And did he have a -- a relationship 13 with your children? 14 A: Yes, he did. 15 Q: Can you describe that? 16 A: He used to babysit them, a couple 17 times, when I would go to Bingo. And my kids really 18 liked him. They called him Cabbage Patch Kid. 19 Q: Do you know why? 20 A: Because one (1) time one (1) of my 21 brothers, as -- they were playing a joke and they shaved 22 one (1) of his eyebrows off. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: And then they called him Cuddly 25 Dudley.

1 Q: Cuddly Dudley? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. Would you like a moment? 4 A: No, it's okay. 5 Q: Thank you. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: During your visits to the Army Camp 10 between 1993 and July of '95, did you ever go on any 11 patrols with -- with Dudley George around -- around the 12 land there? 13 A: Yeah, I probably did. 14 Q: And what was the purpose of those 15 patrols? 16 A: Just to check out that nobody wasn't 17 -- wasn't supposed to be where they weren't supposed to 18 be. 19 Q: All right. Were there -- was there 20 an understanding, to your knowledge, as between the 21 occupants and the military personnel as to where people 22 should and should not be? 23 A: Yes. It was my understanding that 24 the people who were staying on the ranges were not to go 25 on the built-up area, and I'm pretty sure it was the same

82
  1  term that the military wasn't supposed to bother the
  2  people who were camping on the ranges.
  3                 Q:   And by "ranges", are you referring to
  4  the rifle ranges or --
  5                 A:   Yes.
  6                 Q:   Okay.  Did you ever witness any
  7  encounters or interchanges between Dudley George and
  8  military personnel?
  9                 A:   Yes.  I was there with him one (1)
 10  day.  One (1) night I stayed over and my car was -- the
 11  silver Ford Tempo was parked out on the road.  And the
 12  range patrol truck, the silver one with the little lights
 13  on top, stopped out in front of his place.
 14                 And I seen that they were taking down my
 15  licence, and it kind of made me mad.  And I told Dudley,
 16  I said, I wish I had something to throw at them.  And
 17  what he -- he handed me a dozen eggs, so I stood there
 18  and bombed that truck with eggs.  And he goes, let me
 19  have one.  So we were just throwing the eggs and we were
 20  just laughing.  We thought it was funny.  We were...
 21                 Q:   And did the military personnel
 22  respond or react?
 23                 A:   They sat there and let us throw the
 24  eggs.
 25                 Q:   Okay.  And did you hit any -- any of

1 them? 2 A: Not -- not the military guys, but I 3 seem to think that I did connect with one little round 4 light on the top of the hood. 5 Q: Okay. Were there any other 6 encounters that you witnessed or were a part of, 7 involving Dudley George and the military? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Did you form any impression, based on 10 your observations, as to whether or not the military 11 personnel knew Dudley George by name? 12 A: Yes, I think they knew him by name. 13 Q: And how do you know that? 14 A: Bec -- Well Dudley said that they 15 always used to do that, when everybody -- when anyone 16 came to visit him, the Range Patrol would pull up and 17 take their license plates, or record their license 18 plates -- 19 Q: Yes. And did Dudley -- 20 A: -- for their own information, I 21 suppose. 22 Q: Sorry, did Dudley George have a 23 vehicle with him? 24 A: Not -- not one that could be driven 25 on the road.

1 Q: Well, did he have a license plate 2 that could be then tracked? 3 A: No, but he had outside of his 4 trailer, Dudley's Place. 5 Q: Okay. Did you witness any other 6 interactions, as between any of the other occupants and 7 military personnel during this -- this time period of May 8 '93 to July '95? 9 A: I vaguely remember seeing a Range 10 Patrol go by with cam, taking pictures, and I think that 11 someone tried to run out -- run out the road and was 12 yelling at them, for, like, to be on their way or... 13 Q: Okay. And did that person throw 14 anything at the -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- patrol? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Did you witness anybody throwing 19 things at the patrols? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did you ever witness any incidents, 22 involving Dudley George and members of the Ontario 23 Provincial Police, on the beach front of Camp Ipperwash? 24 A: Yes, I did. 25 Q: Can you tell us about that?

1 A: It would be -- it would have -- it 2 would be the Saturday or the Sunday before Labour Day. 3 Q: Of what year? 4 A: 1995. There was campers still in the 5 Park. I made my way down to the beach area and I noticed 6 that the OPP Who car was stuck in the sand and there was 7 about five (5) or six (6) guys standing around the car. 8 And then I noticed Dudley at -- at the 9 end, or at the edge of the grass. He was right up to the 10 face of two (2) police officers. 11 And, while I was in the car with Russ 12 Jewel and Marlin Simon and first, Russie, he turned right 13 and parked down the beach a ways from -- from where the 14 OPP Who car was stuck -- 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: -- and he got out and he opened up 17 the trunk and he says, let's make it look like we got 18 guns in here. And I looked at him and I said, What for? 19 I said, I'm going to go over there and see what's 20 happening. And Marlin said, Me too. 21 So we start walking over there and when we 22 got over there, I went to see what Dudley was up to and I 23 stood right there and I looked at him and I looked at the 24 officers, there was two (2) officers standing there. 25 And Dudley has -- he was right in their

1 face, like three (3) inches apart, and he was just 2 yelling at them, giving them heck, what are you doing 3 here, you got no business here. And I could see spit 4 flying out of his face. 5 Q: Mm-hmm. Yes? 6 A: And he was really mad. And I looked 7 at the guy standing over there and I looked behind me, 8 and I could see about a hundred (100) faces looking -- 9 Q: A hundred (100) faces from where? 10 A: Of the campers. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: There were still campers in the Park. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: And I went back to the guys over 15 there and I told the guys, I said, I'll -- I'll jump in 16 your car and you push me and get the car out. And the 17 minute the car came unstuck, Dudley was right there, they 18 got back in their car and they left. 19 Q: All right. Now, let's just -- so 20 that I understand a little bit more clearly what you've 21 just described. First of all, the beach upon which this 22 occurred, and that was at the beach, then, in front of 23 the Ipperwash Park? 24 A: Yes. It would be on the northwest 25 corner.

1 Q: All right. As -- 2 A: The very corner. 3 Q: I'm sorry. As distinct from the 4 military beach? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And the OPP WHO car, whose car 7 was that? 8 A: I would have to say it was 9 everybody's car. 10 Q: Everybody's from? 11 A: From who was staying on the built-up 12 area. 13 Q: Okay. So, the barracks? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. So, the occupants? 16 A: Yeah. I would say it was a community 17 res. bomb (phonetic). 18 Q: And this occurred in August, the last 19 weekend of August of 1995? 20 A: Yes, the weekend prior to Labour Day. 21 Q: Russ Jewel -- you said "Russie", you 22 meant Russ Jewel when you said "Russie"? 23 A: Yes. His real name is Royal Russ 24 Jewel. 25 Q: His real name is Royal Russ Jewel?

1 A: Royal Russel Jewel, I believe. 2 Q: Okay. And what type of car did Mr. 3 Jewel drive on this incident? 4 A: It was an older dark blue Dodge 5 Satellite. And -- 6 Q: You indicated -- I'm sorry. 7 A: It had primer, light gray primer 8 spots, where someone would have done auto body. 9 Q: Okay. So, there was patches? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: All right. Now, you said that Russ 12 Jewel drove the car down and -- and then parked some ways 13 away from the OPP WHO car? 14 A: Yes, he did. 15 Q: And he said to you and to Marlin 16 Simon something like, Let's make it look like we have 17 guns inside -- 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: -- the car? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And -- 22 A: Inside the trunk. 23 Q: Sorry, inside the trunk. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Thank you. And did he -- did he open

1 the trunk? 2 A: Yes, he did. 3 Q: Did you look inside? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And what did you see? 6 A: Wrenches to fix a tire, maybe a spare 7 tire, some junk. 8 Q: Did you see any guns in that car? 9 A: No, I didn't. 10 Q: Do you have any -- did you form any 11 impression as to why Russ Jewel would want -- would want 12 to give the impression, presumably to the police, that 13 there were guns in the car, or in the trunk? 14 A: No. I -- I couldn't figure out why 15 he would -- he was doing that, other than to make himself 16 look bad or mean or -- 17 Q: All right. Did -- did Mr. Jewel do 18 anything, aside from opening the trunk of his car, to 19 give the impression or that you think was intended to 20 give the impression that there were guns in the trunk? 21 A: No. He never did anything else. 22 Q: You didn't hear him say anything to 23 the police officers about guns or rifles? 24 A: No. I think that he -- he kept a 25 fair distance.

1 Q: From the police? 2 A: Yeah. From where the OPP WHO car was 3 stuck. I don't think that he came right over there to 4 where me and Marlin had walked. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: I think that he stood back farther 7 and watched. 8 Q: You indicated that you asked the guys 9 to give you a push to dislodge or remove, if you will, 10 the OPP WHO car -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- that you saw was stuck in the 13 sand. And were you referring to Russ Jewel and Marlin 14 Simon? 15 A: As what? 16 Q: As the guys who pushed you? 17 A: No, the guys who pushed, that I was 18 referring to were the other occupants -- 19 Q: Whether there -- 20 A: -- that were riding in the WHO -- OPP 21 WHO car with Dudley. 22 Q: Okay. And who were they? 23 A: I think Wes or Waldo would have been 24 there. 25 Q: Warren George?

1 A: Yes. I know Robert was there, would 2 have been there. 3 Q: Is that Robert Isaac? 4 A: Isaac, yeah. And I'm not sure, there 5 might have been one (1) or two (2) Oneida guys in there, 6 I'm not sure. That was a long time ago. 7 Q: All right. And so it was your 8 suggestion to move the OPP WHO car and then did that seem 9 to resolve the dispute? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Did Dudley George then go into the 12 OPP WHO car and leave? 13 A: Immediately. 14 Q: Immediately. Did you have a chance 15 to talk to him about what had happened? 16 A: No, no. 17 Q: Now you said that Dudley George told 18 the police that they had basically no business being 19 there? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Do you have any understanding as to 22 what was meant by that? 23 A: I think he got his ultimate chance to 24 give the cops shit for all the years they picked on him. 25 Q: Now, have you -- did you have any --

1 let me put it this way: To your knowledge, did -- did 2 the OPP know Dudley George by name? 3 A: Yes, they did. 4 Q: And can you tell me how it is that 5 you draw that conclusion? 6 A: It goes back to, it would have to be 7 either 1978 or 1979, when -- when I had my first car, -- 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: Dudley and myself and my boyfriend at 10 the time, were coming from Sarnia and we came through 11 Forrest around to where the library is located now -- 12 Q: All right. 13 A: -- and the Forrest Co-Op was -- and a 14 store behind the library, and we were stopped by the 15 police there and they seen Dudley in a car. They never 16 asked him nothing. They just dragged him out of the car 17 and said, the Co-Op was broken into and you did it, 18 Dudley. 19 And it really surprised me. I said, we 20 just came from Sarnia and Dudley was with us. And they 21 left him alone. 22 Q: All right. And was it -- did the OPP 23 have jurisdiction in Forest at that time? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And are you aware of any other

1 incidents that you saw, involving Dudley George and the 2 OPP, that gave you this impression that they knew him by 3 name? 4 A: They must have known him from when he 5 was a young teenager also. This one other time, I 6 remember, Four Sidewalk Sale Days, and there would be 7 Laverne (phonetic), Dudley's younger brother, Dudley's 8 younger sister, Pamela, and Dudley's younger brother, 9 David Lorne. 10 And we were hanging around uptown, Four 11 Sidewalk Sale Days was going on, and I recall Dudley and 12 Peter getting chased through the streets. I never knew 13 what for. 14 After they were getting chased around, we 15 decided to go back over to Uncle Nug's house on Water 16 Street. 17 Q: Who is Uncle Nug, what's his name? 18 A: Dudley's father. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: Reginald George -- 21 Q: Okay. Thank you. 22 A: -- Senior. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: And we went back to the house and 25 stayed there, and we didn't go back uptown.

1 Q: Okay. I just want to go back to -- 2