1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 January 17th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )    (np)
  5  Katherine Hensel  )    (np)
  6  
  7  Murray Klippenstein ) (np)       The Estate of Dudley 
  8  Vilko Zbogar       )            George and George
  9  Andrew Orkin       )  (np)      Family Group
 10  Basil Alexander    ) (np)       Student-at-Law
 11  
 12  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 13  Jackie Esmonde   )   (Np)       Family Group
 14  
 15  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 16  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena
 17                                   (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stoney
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )              Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Sue Freeborn     )   (np)
 25  Maureen Smith    )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (Np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 11  
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  
 15  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 16  Trevor Hinnegan     ) 
 17  
 18  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 19  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 20  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 21  
 22  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 23  Karen Jones      )              Police Association &
 24  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 25  Ian McGilp       )   (np)

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  
  7  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
  8  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
  9  
 10  William Horton   )              Chiefs of Ontario
 11  Matthew Horner   )   (np)
 12  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 13  
 14  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 15  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 16  Erin Tully       )
 17  
 18  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 19  Anna Perschy     )
 20  Melissa Panjer   )   (np)
 21  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 22  
 23  
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 3 4 GERALD CHRISTOPHER GEORGE, Resumed 5 6 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 6 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 82 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 177 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Kim Twohig 207 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. William Henderson 211 11 Re-Direct Examination Mr. Derry Millar 227 12 13 Certificate of Transcript 231 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 10:30 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good morning, 9 Mr. Commissioner. 10 11 GERALD CHRISTOPHER GEORGE, Resumed 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Good 14 Morning, Mr. George. May I remind you, sir, that you are 15 still under oath. 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 19 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. My name is 20 Andrea Tuck-Jackson and I'm here on behalf of the OPP. 21 A: Good morning. 22 Q: Good morning. I want to begin, sir, 23 if I may, to review with you, a number of what I might 24 suggest were changes in the situation at the Park, which 25 manifested themselves in the late afternoon, early

1 evening of September the 6th, all right? 2 A: Okay. 3 Q: You described for us first of all a 4 physical confrontation that took place between yourself 5 and Stewart George shortly before 8:00 p.m. on the 6 evening of the 6th; correct? 7 A: Yes, yes. 8 Q: And, I trust, sir, from what you had 9 observed during your -- your trips to the area around the 10 Park on the 5th and the 6th, that was the first you had 11 ever observed of a physical confrontation between one of 12 the Park occupiers and someone who was not a police 13 officer. 14 A: Observed or experienced...? 15 Q: Observed, between the 5th and the 16 6th, that was the first you had observed of a physical 17 confrontation between one of the occupiers and someone 18 who was not a police officer? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And secondly, you testified, 21 on Thursday, that during that confrontation that you had 22 with Stewart George, you noticed that there were a number 23 of occupiers outside of the Park in the sandy parking 24 lot; do I have that correct? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And, you'd also agree with me that 2 you noticed that at least one of those individuals was 3 carrying what may be described as either a stick or a 4 bat? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And, I'm going to suggest to you, 7 sir, that that was the first time, again, during the 8 course of your travels around the Park during the 5th and 9 the 6th, that you saw one of the occupiers, outside of 10 the Park, armed with an object? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You also indicated, sir, that, and it 13 wasn't in your testimony, it was actually in your 14 statement, I noticed, to the SIU which you gave on 15 January the 8th, 1996, and to refresh your memory, you 16 might want to turn to Tab 16 in the book of materials 17 that are just before you, on the table. 18 And, if you're at Tab 16, sir, if you turn 19 to page 3 -- 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: You notice, sir, that you refer to 22 the activity of those individuals in the parking lot, 23 that they were yelling at people as they passed by? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Do you recall, sir, what they were

1 yelling? 2 A: I really can't. 3 Q: All right. Fair enough. It's a 4 long -- 5 A: That's too far away. 6 Q: I was about to say to sir, it's a 7 long time ago. You'd agree with me, sir, that that was 8 the first, that you had noticed, of Park occupiers coming 9 outside of the Park boundary, in the parking lot, yelling 10 at passers-by? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Thank you. And, the fourth aspect 13 that was different, I'm going to suggest to you, about 14 the late afternoon of the 6th and the early evening, was 15 what I'm going to describe as an increased amount of 16 activity within the Park. 17 So, for example, sir, you were describing 18 for us last Thursday that you saw the dump truck driving 19 at a fairly good clip between the Park and the Base and 20 there was loud music coming from it. You remember that 21 testimony? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And, I'm going to suggest to you, 24 sir, that that was just one example of the increased 25 activity, that you noticed, when you were there on the

1 late afternoon and early evening of the 6th. 2 A: I only saw the -- the dump truck a 3 couple of times and maybe a couple other cars, but I 4 really didn't notice much other than that, -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- along that road that's inside of 7 the Army Camp. 8 Q: All right. And I trust, though, that 9 you'd agree with me that that movement was something that 10 you had not seen prior to the late afternoon and the 11 early evening of the 6th? 12 A: No, but over the whole course that 13 road was used heavily 'cause that's the main road from 14 the Army Camp down to the beach where everybody used to 15 go down to the lakes. 16 Q: I understand, sir. What I understood 17 from your testimony though, on Thursday past, was that 18 this was something that caught your eye. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: It stood out. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Thank you. Now, I'm going to turn to 23 a very different area, sir, and that is with respect to 24 the information that you, I'm going to suggest, passed on 25 to the police, about the presence of firearms at Stoney

1 Point; all right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And, when I use the term Stoney Point 4 in the questions that follow, you can take it from me 5 that I am referring to the area that is also described as 6 both the Army Base and Ipperwash Provincial Park, so that 7 whole area; okay? 8 A: That might be your point, but Stoney 9 Point at the time, to me, did not include the Ipperwash 10 Park because that was a Provincial Park. 11 Q: No, I understand that entirely, sir. 12 Just in order to make sure that everyone knows what I'm 13 referring to, for ease of reference, I'm going to refer 14 to Stoney Point, globally, as the land mass that 15 comprised the Park and the Army Base; all right? 16 A: Well, you can refer to it like that, 17 but my side is different. I don't consider that 18 Ipperwash Park is part of Stoney Point. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 23 Q: My Friend, Mr. Henderson has made a 24 very helpful suggestion, because I don't want you to 25 think that I'm asking you to endorse a particular

1 political description of the land. Why don't I simply 2 refer to it as the occupied lands, and when I refer to 3 occupied land, I'm referring to the Park and the Army 4 Base. All right? Globally. 5 A: Fair enough. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: This is 10 becoming much more complicated than I ever intended, Mr. 11 Commissioner. Why don't I proceed it is a lack of 12 clarity. Someone can stand up and ask me to clarify it. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 15 Q: I anticipate, Mr. George, that we're 16 going to hear evidence that on the evening of September 17 the 6th, the Command Post, under the control of the OPP, 18 received certain information as to the presence of 19 firearms in the occupied areas, and the reason I'm 20 leaving it fairly vaguely is -- vague rather, is that -- 21 that's it's not entirely clear whether the information 22 related specifically to the Park or the Army Base. All 23 right? 24 A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE) 25 Q: Okay. Now I anticipate, sir, that

1 we're going to hear that you were the source of that 2 information. So, what I'd like to do, sir, is let's go 3 through a number of points that I anticipate that you and 4 I can agree upon, and then we'll move on to the areas 5 where I anticipate we cannot agree. All right? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Okay. Now, first of all, I trust 8 that you'd agree with me that you provided a statement to 9 Officer Poole, in relation to the -- the conflict that 10 you had with Stewart George, on the evening of the 6th; 11 correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You can take it from me that Officer 14 Poole is the uniformed officer with whom you spoke 15 initially; all right? 16 A: I believe so. 17 Q: Okay. And, I trust that you would 18 also agree that after having spoken with Officer Poole, 19 you spoke with a second officer by the name of Mark Dew. 20 A: And, there's a second officer, I 21 think, 'cause I couldn't remember his name. 22 Q: All right. Again, sir, you can take 23 it from me that that individual's name is Mark Dew; all 24 right? 25 A: Okay, yeah.

1 Q: Okay. You'd agree with me, sir, that 2 the topic of the presence of firearms, in the occupied 3 lands, came up during the course of your conversation 4 with Officer Dew? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. And agree -- you'd agree 7 with me, I gather, from the evidence that we heard from 8 you on Thursday, that you did advise Officer Dew that 9 there were probably firearms, in at least the Base, that 10 would be typically used for hunting. Do I have that 11 correct? 12 A: That was my assumption. 13 Q: All right. And that was an 14 assumption that you conveyed to Officer Dew? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: He just asked me what kind, so I 18 said, well, when I hunted in there, I told him what I 19 used, my Ruger, and then my shotgun, so... 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And, I said they probably have rifles 22 similar to that, if there's anything at all. 23 Q: I have to tell you, Mr. George, and 24 maybe because there's a fan nearby, I'm having difficulty 25 hearing you, so I'm going to ask that you speak up a bit;

1 all right? 2 A: All right. 3 Q: You'd agree with me, sir, that the 4 topic of scoped firearms came up? 5 A: I told him my -- my rifle was scoped. 6 Q: Okay. So the answer to my question, 7 I trust, is yes...? And, did you also advise Officer Dew 8 that, probably, at the Base, there would be firearms used 9 for hunting, that would also have scopes? 10 A: I told him my rifle was scoped. I 11 said maybe there's -- maybe they have similar guns in 12 there, for hunting deer. 13 Q: All right. Then I take it, sir, that 14 your answer to my question is yes? 15 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I don't think that 16 was a yes. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 19 Q: So, what you're prepared to agree 20 with me, sir, then, I gather, is that you would have told 21 Officer Dew that possibly there were scoped firearms at 22 the Base? 23 A: That's my assumption. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 25 Henderson...?

1 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: With respect, Mr. 2 Commissioner, that's not what he's telling you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That isn't 4 what he said in answer to your question, so, you will 5 have to ask him again if you... 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 8 Q: Let's just clarify, let's go back. I 9 understood you had agreed with me, that you told Officer 10 Dew, that there were probably rifles at the Base, that 11 would be used for hunting. Do I have that correct? 12 A: I told him that what I used for 13 hunting in the Base, and I said they probably might have 14 similar guns, as I did, for hunting deer and hunting 15 around the duck pond. 16 Q: So, it's not probably now, it's 17 probably might have; is that correct? 18 A: Probably. 19 Q: That's probably correct? It's 20 important, Mr. George, -- 21 A: Yes, I know, -- 22 Q: -- that we understand what you told 23 Officer Dew. 24 A: I told him I had a Ruger, two twenty- 25 three, --

1 Q: Right. 2 A: -- that I used for hunting deer when 3 I was in there, I used a .22, and then I used a shotgun 4 for the duck pond. And, I said they probably have 5 similar firearms, -- 6 Q: Thank you. 7 A: -- on the Base. 8 Q: All right. So then let's take it one 9 step further, because I must confess, I -- I don't have 10 anywhere near the knowledge of firearms that you do. 11 When you add a scope to a rifle, that 12 differentiates it from, obviously a rifle that doesn't 13 have a scope; right? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Right. Okay. So, what I'm asking 16 is: Did you also convey to Officer Dew that they 17 probably had firearms with scopes, at the Base? 18 A: I said my rifle was scoped. So maybe 19 he assumed that when I said, they have similar guns, that 20 they had scoped weapons as well. 21 Q: Thank you. 22 A: There's not much different between a 23 scoped rifle and an open-sight rifle, it's just to shoot 24 something larger and further distance. That's all it is. 25 It's like in bucket seats with your Mercedes or whatever

1 you drive. 2 Q: I can assure you that I -- 3 A: I mean, it's just a added -- 4 Q: -- don't drive a Mercedes. 5 A: -- added luxury. 6 Q: You'd agree with me, sir, that the 7 topic of the presence of semi-automatic firearms at the 8 Base came up, or was discussed...? 9 A: No. I just told him my gun -- what 10 my gun was. 'Cause my -- the Ruger is -- my Ruger is a 11 semi-automatic, the Mini-14. 12 Q: Right. So then you'd agree with me 13 that the topic of a semi-automatic was at least 14 discussed; right? 15 A: I can't remember, but when I -- I 16 told him I had Ruger Mini-14, he probably knows his guns, 17 and he probably knew it was a semi-automatic. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: Because he should know his guns. 20 Q: Thank you. And, did the -- did the 21 topic, sir, of an automatic weapon, just the topic, did 22 that come up during the course of your discussion? 23 A: I -- I can't remember. You mean 24 full- automatic? 25 Q: Yes.

1 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: But he asked me about a -- the anti 4 ta -- anti-tank rocket, -- 5 Q: Right. 6 A: -- and it's not in his report 7 anywhere here either, so. 8 Q: I understand that, and I anticipate 9 that we'll hear from Mr. Dew and he can explain why it is 10 or is not there. 11 You'd agree with me though, that you 12 discussed at least a semi-automatic that you had; 13 correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And, is it in any way possible that 16 from something you said, that you were conveying that it 17 was either possible or probable, that there was such a 18 semi-automatic in the Base? 19 A: I said there was -- they -- they may 20 have similar -- a similar rifle as I do. 21 Q: All right. Okay. So, then, you 22 wouldn't disagree if Mr. Dew testified that he was left 23 with the impression, from something you said, that there 24 might be a semi-automatic at the Base; right? 25 A: Well, that would be his impression,

1 you know. 2 Q: Based upon what you told him? 3 A: Possibly. 4 Q: Thank you. All right. Now, you 5 referred to a Chinese SK? 6 A: S. 7 Q: SKS, excuse me. Again, reflecting my 8 own ignorance about firearms. Chinese SKS is a semi- 9 automatic; is that correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And, I understand that you've told us 12 that back in 1995 you had a Chinese SKS? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And, again, is that another example 15 of a firearm you would have told him about that you had? 16 A: No. I wouldn't tell him I had one of 17 those. He just asked me what kind of firearms I think 18 might -- that I might have thought was on the base, and I 19 told him what I used for hunting. I told him I used my 20 mini -- my Ruger. 21 Q: Yes. I gather you don't use the 22 Chinese SKS for hunting? 23 A: I did a couple times but not anywhere 24 around -- around down home. 25 Q: So, sir, if you were conveying to him

1 the types of weapons that you typically used for hunting, 2 isn't possible that you also conveyed to him that you had 3 a Chinese SKS that you -- 4 A: No. I didn't -- 5 Q: -- used for hunting. 6 A: No. I didn't tell him that at all. 7 Q: You would agree with me, sir -- 8 actually, let me just go back one step. If you turn, 9 sir, in the materials in front of you at Tab 21, I 10 anticipate, sir, that we're going to hear that this is a 11 transcript of a conversation between Mark Dew and an 12 Officer Graham, and that this is information that Officer 13 Dew was conveying to Officer Graham, as a result of a 14 conversation that he just had with you, on the evening of 15 the 6th. 16 And, if you look at the top of page 2, 17 you'll see that there is a reference by the officer to 18 the fact that you had seen four (4) SKF's. Now, I want 19 to leave aside the issue as to whether or not you had 20 seen it or not. 21 What's an SKF, first of all? 22 A: Well there's no such weapon as a SKF. 23 Q: Is possible that -- I mean, we know 24 there's a SKS; correct? 25 A: An SKS, RPK, AKM, AKS, but there's no

1 SKF's. 2 Q: Fair enough. And, is an SKS a 3 Russian semi-automatic, as is described two (2) lines 4 down? 5 A: An S -- SKF? 6 Q: No. SKS? 7 A: There's no Russian semi-automatic. 8 Just the Chinese sell those, Norinco Incorporated. 9 (phonetic) 10 Q: Did I not understand your testimony, 11 earlier on Thursday, that at some point there was a 12 Russian SKS, but now they're made in China? 13 A: Yeah. They were -- they were made 14 just for the military in Russia and they were supplied to 15 their satellite country, at a Warsaw pact. 16 Q: Right. 17 A: And the SKS, the Chinese copied it 18 and that's -- the Chinese put it up for sale. 19 Q: So that at some point then there were 20 Russian SKS's, at the very least? 21 A: Yeah, but not around here. 22 Q: I understand. Around here, as you 23 put it, they are Chinese SKS's -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- right?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Right. Okay. You drop down, there's 3 a reference to this either SKF or perhaps it's been lost 4 in the transcribing, SKS, a thirty (30) round detachable 5 clip? 6 A: And a couple -- six (6) -- ten (10) 7 round -- they only have ten (10) round clips for SKS's. 8 Q: Do they have thirty (30) round 9 detachable clips? 10 A: For some of them. 11 Q: Thank you. 12 A: Because there interchangeable with a 13 AKA and RPK. 14 Q: Thank you. Dropping down, we see a 15 reference to a Ruger Mini 14; is this this Ruger semi- 16 automatic, that you acknowledge to the officer that you 17 had used, during -- 18 A: Yeah. That's one (1) of the guns I 19 admitted that I used for hunting. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I only rise to say 21 that My Friend can put them to -- the questions to the 22 witness but we don't know exactly when -- when My Friend 23 says "is this the Ruger Mini 14 that you referred to", we 24 don't know what Martin Dew is talking about here, but it 25 sounds like it. But -- but this is a conversation, not

1 between the witness and anybody, it's between Dew and 2 Grant. 3 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I appreciate 4 that, Mr. Commissioner. All I'm trying to establish is 5 that these topics of conversation did indeed come up 6 between the Officer and this witness. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 9 Q: So I'm sorry. In all that, I missed 10 your answer to my question. 11 A: My -- 12 Q: The -- the Ruger Mini-14, is that the 13 same type of gun that you were discussing with Officer 14 Dew, as something that you had had? 15 A: Yeah, that's the kind of gun I told 16 him that I used for hunting. 17 Q: Right. And also, then, the gun that 18 you said that they probably would have at the Base, just 19 in the same way that there were people at the Base 20 hunting? 21 A: I said to him, I said, probably might 22 have a similar gun as I had. 23 Q: Thank you. Dropping down, there's a 24 reference to two Ruger-14s. What would a Ruger-14 be? 25 A: I don't know, I'm not gonna put out

1 words to this guy's radio transmission here. 2 Q: Fair enough. Are you telling me 3 then, that as far as you're aware there's no such thing 4 as a Ruger-14? 5 A: Again, I'm not gonna put words to 6 his, he might have got it wrong. 7 Q: Well, I'm not -- 8 A: Maybe he's referring to a earlier -- 9 my firearm, but I don't know. 10 Q: I gather, sir, the answer to your -- 11 to my question is, is that from your experience and 12 knowledge of firearms, there is no such thing as a Ruger 13 Mini-14? 14 A: There's a Ruger Mini-14. 15 Q: Excuse me. Yes. You're right. 16 A: But not a Ruger-14. 17 Q: I hear what you're saying. And -- 18 A: There's a Ruger-12, it's a handgun, 19 but not a... 20 Q: And, in fairness, what I've done is - 21 - is I've -- I've misquoted, because it looks like Graham 22 is trying to repeat what Dew is -- is telling him in the 23 transcript and it looks like Graham has left out a key 24 word, the word Mini. 25 The clip for a Ruger Mini-14, is that a

1 three oh, a thirty clip? 2 A: You can get a -- well I bought my gun 3 legally, you can still buy them, they come with five- 4 round detachable magazines. But back before that law 5 went through, you could get a ten (10), fifteen (15), 6 twenty (20), thirty (30), forty (40) round and ninety 7 (90)-round snail drum mag for them. 8 Q: Thank you. And, as we continue on 9 page 3 of that transcript, you'll see that Officer Dew 10 refers to the presence of hunting rifles with scopes, of 11 course. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And, I think we've already agreed 14 that you did say things, which reasonably would have left 15 Officer Dew with the impression, that there were possibly 16 or even probably, hunting rifles with scopes at the Base; 17 correct? 18 A: Well, he probably assumed that. 19 Q: Based on what you told him? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Right. You've agreed already, sir, 22 that during the summer of 1995, you had limited, but 23 certainly some access, to the Army Base; correct? 24 A: In 1995, our -- after August, not -- 25 none.

1 Q: Well, for me summer starts before 2 August, so during the summer of 1995, before August, -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- you did have access to the Army 5 Base? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: With what frequency did you go on the 8 Army Base? 9 A: Not -- not too much. 10 Q: Well, I'm asking you, sir, how 11 frequently did you go on the Army Base? 12 A: The -- the wooded section or the 13 built-up area? 14 Q: Let's start with the wooded section. 15 A: I went back there several times, not 16 too much. 17 Q: Several times during the month of 18 July? 19 A: July, July...I'm not sure I went on 20 in July. 21 Q: We seem to have a musical interlude 22 at the moment. Someone's computer is not behaving 23 politely. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Edwards, 25 you've decided to entertain us.

1 2 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 3 Q: All right. You indicated that you 4 went into the wooded area of the Base -- excuse me -- 5 several times during the month of July? 6 A: I'm not sure I went in there in July. 7 Q: All right. When -- when, then, did 8 you go in -- 9 A: Or June. Maybe -- maybe in April or 10 May. 11 Q: April or May? All right. 12 A: Some time or other, it's been a long 13 time. 14 Q: Okay. And the last time that you 15 were on the Army Base, prior to the point where you were 16 directly asked to leave by a particular female occupant 17 of that Base, when was the last time you'd been on the 18 Base? 19 A: You mean, not including that -- the 20 incident, Toyota -- 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: I can't remember. April, May, 23 sometime around there. 24 Q: Thank you. And, certainly you'd 25 agree with me that you were receiving, to some extent,

1 information about weaponry present on the Base; correct? 2 A: Firearms...? 3 Q: Yes, I'm sorry, I should clarify my 4 terminology: Firearms. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Right. For example you told us that 7 you had heard that there was a Chinese SKS on the Base; 8 right? 9 A: That was early '95, yeah. 10 Q: Pardon...? 11 A: That was early '95. 12 Q: Early '95...? All right. What other 13 firearms had you heard of that were on the Base? So, not 14 something that you had seen, but something you had heard 15 of, from anybody? 16 A: Just from the hearsay that that's the 17 only really names of rifle that come to me. That's -- 18 that's the only the type I heard, that come to me. 19 Q: All right. Were you hearing apart 20 from particular types, were you hearing classifications, 21 for example, were you hearing that there were semi- 22 automatics on the Base? 23 A: No. 24 Q: You testified, with a certain degree 25 of -- of seriousness, about your concern about the

1 presence of what I might call, outsiders, -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- on the Base? And in particular, 4 you were very concerned about the influence that a 5 gentleman by the name of Les Jewel, either was having or 6 might be having, over some of the younger members of that 7 community. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And, did you have any concerns that 10 Mr. Jewel might be bringing in semi-automatics into the 11 Base? 12 A: I was asking about that but I never 13 got a -- a straight answer from anybody. 14 Q: So it was a concern of yours? 15 A: A lot of things were concerning me at 16 the time. 17 Q: I'm not asking about a lot of things, 18 I'm asking about the presence of semi-automatic 19 weapons, -- 20 A: Well, I -- 21 Q: -- that Mr. Jewel might be bringing 22 in. 23 A: No, I wasn't, I was -- I was mostly 24 concerned about the influence he's having over some 25 people there.

1 Q: Sir, you -- 2 A: But if -- if that information come to 3 me, I didn't directly ask about it. I wasn't really 4 concerned that at -- about that at the time, in early 5 '95. 6 Q: Sir, didn't you just tell us that 7 indeed you did make an inquiry, which left -- was left 8 unresolved, about whether or not he had brought in semi- 9 automatic firearms? 10 A: I just asked if he -- if he had a gun 11 or anything, like a handgun or anything. But nobody gave 12 me a answer on that one. 13 Q: All right. So you'd agree with me, 14 at the very least, you were suspicious that he had 15 brought in firearms onto the Base? 16 A: No, not firearms, maybe his own. 17 Q: Fair enough. A firearm...? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And, something more than a hunting 20 rifle? 21 A: I think I specifically asked a couple 22 of my relatives about if he had a handgun. 23 Q: Handgun. Thank you. And, a handgun, 24 a semi-automatic handgun, possibly, you were concerned 25 about?

1 A: A handgun can be anything from an old 2 flint-lock to a semi-automatic to a double-action 3 revolver to a Derringer. A handgun's a handgun. 4 Q: So, fair to say that you were 5 concerned about the full range of handguns, be it one 6 handgun, but the full range of its power and capacity, 7 that Les Jewel might have brought on to that Base? 8 A: It really doesn't matter the power of 9 a handgun that -- it's the person who has it, who owns 10 it. It really doesn't matter what calibre a handgun is. 11 Q: So to answer my question, you were 12 concerned that Mr. Jewel might have brought on a handgun, 13 of any capacity, onto the Base? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Thank you. Were you concerned that 16 other outsiders may have done the same thing? 17 A: I was mostly concerned over the 18 influence, not -- not -- I wasn't really thinking about 19 guns at the time, just with Les Jewel's, because he's 20 from the States. That's mostly why I was -- I was asking 21 about him. That's what I can remember. 22 Q: Okay. And, one (1) other point that, 23 no doubt, you'll agree with, because, to be quite candid, 24 the information that you convey speaks for itself but you 25 are extremely knowledgeable about firearms; correct?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Including semi-automatic firearms; 3 correct? 4 A: All kinds. 5 Q: All kinds. Thank you. 6 A: But, Dew also -- he didn't ask me 7 about gas pumps either, and that's in his report, so. 8 Q: Well, I'm going to get to that in a 9 minute. So, what we can agree on, is that you provided 10 him with information that may reasonably have led him to 11 conclude that there, probably or possibly, was a semi- 12 automatic weapon at the base; we've agreed on that? 13 A: I provided with my assumption that 14 there might have been -- 15 Q: Thank you. 16 A: -- they might have similar hunting 17 rifles as my own. 18 Q: And, can we agree -- I assume that we 19 can't, sir, but I -- I trust it's your position that you 20 never conveyed to this officer that you actually 21 eyeballed such weaponry? 22 A: No. I never said that. I don't use 23 the term "eyeballed". 24 Q: Sorry. I'm sorry. I wasn't meaning 25 to suggest that you had actually used that term, that's

1 my term. I trust that you would not agree with me, if I 2 suggested to you, that you said things that led Officer 3 Dew to the conclusion that you had actually seen the 4 firearms that I've just described? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 6 Henderson? 7 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I'll take 8 exception to that one, if I may, Commissioner. The 9 witness may or may not have said things which he may or 10 may not recall after this period. Whether or not they 11 led Officer Dew to believe anything, nothing or something 12 other than what he said is beyond his -- and not proper - 13 - not proper evidence to illicit from. 14 In other words, My -- My Friend has asked, 15 What -- what could Officer Dew had been led to believe 16 from what you said? How would he know that? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 18 not exactly what -- the question she put. But why don't 19 you respond to that? 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, if I might -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. -- 22 Mr. Millar. 23 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Ms. Tuck-Jackson used 24 words like, That Officer Dew could reasonably assume from 25 what you said. What this witness can say --

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is what he 2 said. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- is what he said. 4 He can't tell us what was in the mind of -- of Officer 5 Dew. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's -- 7 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, she can fairly 8 put to him, as she has, Did you tell him X or Y or Z. 9 But, how can this witness say what was in the mind of 10 Officer Dew -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, she 12 can sub -- 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and -- and what 14 Officer Dew assumed. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 16 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: And I 17 acknowledge that, Mr. Commissioner, quite frankly. 18 That's why I was very careful to -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 20 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- include the 21 word "might reasonably". 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: But how can -- how can 23 he answer -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, that's 25 for you to make -- I think it's for you to make an

1 argument, Ms. Tuck-Jackson -- 2 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I understand, 3 sir. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you make 5 that argument you've got the -- 6 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: What I -- what 7 I want to do is, in fairness, put to this witness and 8 give an opportunity to tell us whether or not he said 9 anything -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- that 12 ultimately might have allowed Officer Dew to conclude -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 14 that's -- 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- if he had 16 actually -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 18 that's what Counsel are objecting to. You can -- he can 19 say what he said and then you can argue what that might 20 have led Officer Dew to conclude -- 21 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- or 23 affirm. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON:

1 Q: Mr. George, I trust it's your 2 position that you did not tell Officer Dew that you had 3 actually seen the firearms, for example the semi- 4 automatic Ruger, you didn't actually say to him that you 5 had seen it at the base? 6 A: No, I didn't say that. I didn't. 7 Q: And, is it your position, sir, that 8 at no time did you convey to the officer that you had 9 actually been at the base in 1995? 10 A: I think I told him I wasn't -- I 11 wasn't in the base recently, I -- I have no knowledge of 12 what's going on in there. 13 Q: So, your evidence is, you explicitly 14 told him that you had not been in the base, recently? 15 A: I told him I -- I wasn't -- I think I 16 told him I wasn't allowed in there. 17 Q: I'm sorry. I'm really having trouble 18 hearing you. 19 A: I think I told him I wasn't allowed 20 in there. 21 Q: All right. Did you tell him, sir, 22 that indeed you had been on the Base at some point in 23 1995? 24 A: I told him I -- I used to hunt in 25 there.

1 Q: In 1995? 2 A: No, no, we don't -- be hunting in the 3 fall of '94. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Don't, really don't hunt anything in 6 a -- the spring or the summer. 7 Q: So, I'll ask the question again. Did 8 you say to Officer Dew that you had been at the Base at 9 any point in 1995, and it may be that you can't recall? 10 A: I don't think so. He might have 11 asked me that but I can't recall if he asked me if I was 12 in the Base or in the Park. 13 Q: Thank you. We've heard evidence, 14 sir, that gas bombs or Molotov cocktails were actually 15 made very, very late on September the 6th, and thrown or 16 used, following the shooting of Dudley George. And, I'm 17 going to suggest to you, sir, that you indeed conveyed, 18 to Officer Dew, that you were aware that the occupiers 19 had the makings of Molotov cocktails? 20 A: Your suggestion is wrong. I didn't 21 know what they were doing in -- in there. 22 Q: We've also -- 23 A: Sorry. 24 Q: Beg your pardon? 25 A: Sorry.

1 Q: Sorry? 2 A: Your suggestion is wrong. 3 Q: Thank you. We've also heard 4 evidence, sir, that following the shooting, one (1) or 5 more buildings within the Park were burned down. And, 6 I'm going to suggest to you, sir, that you actually told 7 Officer Dew that you understood that the occupiers 8 intended to burn down buildings? 9 A: No. 10 Q: So, it's quite clear, sir, that your 11 position is that Officer Dew has attributed to you, words 12 that you never said? 13 A: It seems that way. He doesn't 14 mention the anti-tank rocket or making me point out 15 pictures either, in any of his reports or his radio 16 report, so. 17 Q: As I said, sir, I anticipate we'll 18 hear from the officer as to why something was or was not 19 included. 20 A: Or added. 21 Q: So, you're indicating and you're in 22 essence accusing the officer of putting words in your 23 mouth; do I have that correct? 24 A: It appears that's what's happening. 25 Q: Much in the same way, I gather, that

1 the reporter, who authored the article that was published 2 on August the 3rd, 1995, put words in your mouth? 3 A: And, which words would that be. 4 Q: Well, I want to take you back to 5 that, as a matter of fact. At Tab 5 of your book, there 6 is a copy of a newspaper article authored by Julie Carl, 7 headlined: "Armed standoff dismissed" -- I think is the 8 word, it's cut off -- and published in the London Free 9 Press on August the 3rd, 1995. 10 And, you -- thank you. That's Exhibit P- 11 1-20, for the purposes of the record. And, you'd agree, 12 sir, that you were interviewed by Ms. Carl? 13 A: It looks like she asked me some 14 questions. 15 Q: Yes, it does. It also looks like you 16 gave her some answers. So, let's go through those 17 answers. Halfway down the first column she writes the 18 following: 19 "But a Kettle and Stoney Point Band 20 Councillor, who was among Natives who 21 moved onto the land in May 1993 but 22 left four (4) months later when the 23 repossession, quote, started taking a 24 bad turn, unquote, said Natives at the 25 Army Camp, do have weapons."

1 Now, first of all, before going further, 2 she appears to have attributed to you the exact words 3 "started taking a bad turn". Is it your position that 4 you did or did not use those words? 5 A: I can't remember. 6 Q: So, it's possible that you did and 7 it's possible that you didn't? 8 A: It's possible. 9 Q: Next paragraph begins with a 10 quotation, which has been attributed to you. Quote: 11 "There are weapons down there. I'm not 12 fooled by them." 13 Unquote. Said Gerald George. 14 A: I said -- I probably said guns. I 15 wouldn't use, when talking to people, I don't think I'd 16 use a term weapons. 17 Q: So she has misquoted you? 18 A: She's probably added her own words. 19 That's what likely usually happens when you talk to 20 newspapers. 21 Q: Well, sir, my experience is that when 22 a reporter puts something in quotation marks, it's a 23 precise and exact quote. 24 A: Well, my experience with -- with all 25 the -- a lot of the news reporters is that they like to

1 change things and make it sound more sensational to sell 2 papers. 3 Q: So, your evidence today, sir, is that 4 you did not use the word, weapons; is that correct? 5 A: I did not. I tried not to use the 6 term weapons when describing. I just -- I'd say, guns,-- 7 Q: And, sir, -- 8 A: -- firearms. 9 Q: And, sir, did you use the words, 10 there are, whether or not hunting guns or whatever, there 11 are guns down there? 12 A: Again, I can't say I did or I didn't. 13 Q: "I'm not fooled by them". Were those 14 your words? 15 A: I can't remember. What she's 16 probably asking me about, if there was guns in that 17 campground, and I probably told her that I was a -- that 18 I had a -- when I was in there I'd hunt. It probably 19 come from something like that, talking to her. 20 Q: So in other words, if I have your 21 evidence straight, you did not definitively say to her, 22 there are guns at the Park; correct? 23 A: The Park...? 24 Q: Excuse me, at the Base. 25 A: I can't definitely say yes or no to

1 that, because I can't really remember. 2 Q: You see, it's curious, because what 3 you seem to be saying is that, I told her the same kind 4 of thing that I told Officer Dew, which is, I probably 5 said to her, you know, I used to have hunting weapons, 6 and that's probably what they have at the Base. Is that 7 the kind of thing you think you told her too? 8 A: No, I -- I remember talking to Dew, 9 because we were talk -- it was a serious talk. But this 10 could have just -- she could have just walked up to me 11 outside of a Band -- a Band meeting and asked me a quick 12 question and I gave a quick response. 13 Q: I'm going to ask the question again, 14 sir. Are you saying to us that when you spoke with this 15 witness -- excuse me, this reporter -- what you likely 16 said to her was, you know what, I used to hunt in the 17 Base, and I used to use these kinds of weapons and that's 18 probably the kind of weapons they have in there. 19 A: I can't remember what I told her. 20 Q: Excuse me -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 22 minute. Yes, Mr. Henderson? You speak into the 23 microphone. 24 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Yes, sir. The 25 witness just answered exactly that question.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 2 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: It was a 3 different circumstance he said, I wouldn't have had the 4 same dialogue. The question's already asked and 5 answered. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: With all due 7 respect, Mr. Henderson, the witness has not exactly been 8 an easy witness to cross-examine. This is cross- 9 examination, the witness's answers are somewhat 10 circuitous, if I might say so. And, I think that counsel 11 is perfectly right in weighing what she's asking these 12 questions, up to this point. So I'm going to allow her 13 to continue. Carry on, please. 14 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. 15 Commissioner. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 18 Q: So, I'm going to ask the question 19 again, because I thought that's what you told us several 20 questions ago, or answers ago, as the case may be. 21 Did you tell the Officer -- excuse me, not 22 the Officer, the reporter: Well, I used to hunt in that 23 Base, and these are the kinds of guns I would use when I 24 was hunting. So probably there are those kinds of guns 25 at the Base. Is that what you told her?

1 A: Okay, I'm gonna respond. I really 2 don't remember what I said to this woman, this reporter. 3 Okay. I'm gonna have -- that's -- my answer's gonna be 4 to that. 5 Q: Be what? 6 A: I can't really remember what I -- 7 what I told her. 'Cause I can't. 8 Q: It's curious, sir, because when you 9 testified on January the 13th, you had a much better 10 recollection of what you did tell the reporter. 11 Mr. Commissioner, for your benefit and the 12 benefit of My Friends, I'm referring to page 43 of the 13 Transcript on January the 13th, last Thursday. 14 Now, sir, unfortunately, you don't have a 15 copy of that in front of you, but I intend to read -- 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: We can get -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, you can 18 read it. It may be just a short part, you could read it. 19 If we need it, we'll get it. 20 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: These are -- 21 this is an exchange between yourself, Mr. George, and My 22 Friend Mr. Millar, and it's about what you did or did not 23 tell Ms. Carl: 24 "Q: And so that when you spoke to the 25 reporter you told the reporter that

1 people were hunters and so they had 2 guns because they were hunters? 3 A: Yeah. But they usually don't put 4 that in there, they use other terms, 5 weapons, assault rifles. When you have 6 -- when you say "guns", they like 7 changing the words. 8 Q: So, you -- but so, when you spoke 9 to the reporter you said that because 10 these people were hunters they had guns 11 and -- 12 A: I said people hunt there in the 13 fall all the time, they hunt deer, they 14 have guns. There's guns on the Army -- 15 Army Base. That's what I said and it 16 turned out to be weapons. Not 17 weapons, guns. 18 Q: So, the quote where it says, 19 quote, weapons, unquote, is -- well, 20 it's -- it's not -- did you say, quote, 21 there are weapons down there, I'm not 22 fooled by them, unquote? 23 A: I said they have guns down there. 24 I don't know if I said that I'm not 25 fooled by them. They have -- there's

1 guns down there." 2 That, sir, was your evidence that you gave 3 last Thursday. 4 A: Well, then -- 5 Q: Does that refresh your memory as to 6 what you did or did not tell the reporter? 7 A: Yes, kind of. 8 Q: Okay. Are -- are you now prepared to 9 agree that she correctly attributed -- 10 A: She -- yeah, she must have. 11 Q: So, then you agree that you told the 12 -- the reporter, There are -- and you didn't say weapons, 13 you said guns? 14 A: Guns, hunting. 15 Q: "There are guns down there, I'm not 16 fooled by them." 17 A: I can't remember if I said that part. 18 Q: All right. But, what you do agree 19 then is that you said, unequivocally to the reporter 20 that, There are firearms down there? 21 A: I must have. 22 Q: Thank you. So, it would appear then 23 that the -- the reporter, with the exception of the word 24 "weapon", did not misquote you? 25 A: Some of the time she might have

1 misquoted me, but she must have left "firearms" in from 2 me. 3 Q: Okay. Let's move on to another 4 person that I understand you claim has mis-attributed 5 words to you. Let's turn to Roderick Judas George. 6 You were asked about a conversation by My 7 Friend Mr. Millar, last Thursday, about a conversation 8 that we've heard took place between yourself and Roderick 9 George after -- excuse me -- several years after the 10 incident involving Dudley George. 11 We've heard that it occurred perhaps in 12 1997. You've told us that it occurred, I think, in 1999. 13 And you were asked by Mr. Millar -- and, again, I'm going 14 to read your evidence for you to refresh your memory. 15 And, for the Friends -- excuse me -- for 16 My Friends' benefit and for Mr. Commissioner, I'm 17 referring to page 153 of the transcript: 18 "Q: And during your conversation with 19 Mr. Roderick George, did Mr. Roderick 20 George ask you why you had told the OPP 21 they had weapons in the Park? 22 A: I can't remember that. He might 23 have, but I don't know what he was 24 talking about, but I didn't -- excuse 25 me -- I didn't know what he was talking

1 about because I didn't see that report 2 until just -- until like just a week 3 ago when you gave that to me." 4 Now, just a minute before I go on there, 5 because something caught my eye before, actually caught 6 my ear, before when you said it. You didn't know what 7 Roderick George was talking about because you didn't see 8 that report 'til like just a week ago. 9 Are you talking about the fact that as of 10 today, for example, or most recently, you weren't aware 11 of what Officer Dew had tol -- had attributed to you? 12 A: No, not that. Not the whole list. 13 Q: Not the whole list? 14 A: No. I was just told that '96-'97, by 15 a news reporter, that I was quoted as telling the OPP 16 that there's weapons in there. 17 Q: Okay. So what you're saying is that 18 you weren't aware of the full breadth of information that 19 Officer Dew had attributed to you? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. 22 "Q: But -- 23 A: When I thought he was yelling 24 gibberish at me. 25 Q: Did you say to him, do you -- did

1 you say to Mr. Roderick George, that's 2 was -- that's what I was told to say? 3 A: No, I didn't say that." 4 A: I was told to say what...? Was that 5 me or him? 6 Q: Roderick Judas George is attributing 7 to you, the following: When he asked you, why had you 8 told the OPP they had weapons in the Park? He has told 9 us, at the Inquiry, that your reply was -- not that you 10 denied saying it, but that you were told to say it? 11 A: No, nobody tells me what to do. I 12 didn't -- no one told me to say that. 13 Q: So, I gather then, that Roderick 14 George has attributed to you, something you never said? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. That appears to be Number 3. 17 Let's move on to Person No. 4, Stewart George. 18 During the course of My Friend, Mr. 19 Miller's 20 examination of you last Thursday, he asked you in 21 connection with your confrontation with Stewart George, 22 the following question: 23 Mr. Commissioner, I'm referring to page 95 24 of the transcript. 25 "Q: Okay, and so just before we get

1 there, did -- do you recall saying 2 something to Mr. -- Mr. George when you 3 yelled back at him: Worm, you're going 4 to get it." 5 And, for the life of me, I can't read 6 what's next, because for some reason, the printer has 7 gone haywire and has printed the words vertically. I 8 think it says: 9 "Do you recall saying those words? 10 A: No, I think I just called him A -- 11 A-hole and that kind of stuff." 12 Do you recall giving that evidence? 13 A: Yes, I do. 14 Q: All right. The reason, I anticipate, 15 sir, Mr. Millar asked you that question, was that during 16 his evidence, before the Inquiry...and Mr. Commissioner, 17 I'm referring to the testimony of Stewart George, of 18 November the 2nd, during his examination by Mr. Worme, 19 and I'm referring to page 76. 20 And, as part of the narrative as to what 21 transpired between you and him, Stewart George had the 22 following to say. And for the benefit of my friends, I'm 23 referring to around Line 2 of page 76: 24 "And I -- I walked up to his car and 25 asked him what he was doing around

1 here. And he started to say something 2 so I gave him a slap and he took off 3 from about -- from here to you away and 4 he stopped and he turned around and 5 looked back at me and said, Worme, 6 you're going to get it." 7 A: No, he -- he didn't slap me, he 8 punched me right in the ear and then he pulled away and I 9 looked out and I -- and I said, What did you do that for? 10 And he said -- he just started jumping around trying to 11 get me to come out, so -- and then he -- I was going to 12 take off and he hit the car with a rock. That's when I 13 took off. 14 Q: So, at no time did you say anything 15 to the effect of, Worme, you're going to get it? 16 A: No, I just swore at him a little bit. 17 Q: Or, Worme, your days are numbered? 18 A: No. 19 Q: You didn't say anything threatening 20 to him in any fashion? 21 A: I just swore at him. 22 Q: So it would appear that Stewart 23 George has attributed something to you that you never 24 said? 25 A: Looks like it.

1 Q: Okay, that's Number 4. Mr. 2 Commissioner, I notice it's about 11:30. Would this be 3 an appropriate time to break? 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You still 5 have a bit more to go? 6 MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: Well I -- Oh, I 7 have quite a bit more to go. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Quite a bit 9 more to go? Well then, I suppose so, if you think this 10 is a good time. We've only been going an hour; we could 11 go -- 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: I'm -- I'm 13 content to keep going and I can finish off an area a 14 little bit more tightly. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think that 16 would be a better idea; we've only been going an hour. 17 Let's go a little longer. 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: Good enough. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: 21 Q: You provided a statement to the SIU 22 on January 8th, 1996 and that appears at Tab 16 of your 23 materials. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 Q: One (1) of the officers, sir, in 2 attendance was an officer by the name of Jim Kennedy. Do 3 you recall that? 4 A: No. I can't remember 5 Q: Okay. There's another document in 6 front of you on the table, loose document up on the left, 7 sir, towards the top -- towards the left. There are two 8 (2) loose documents there. There's one (1) -- Mr. 9 Commissioner, I've provided you with a copy as well -- 10 entitled, "Special Investigations Unit Follow-Up Report". 11 For the benefits of my Friend, it is Inquiry Document 12 1005464. 13 And, before I direct you, sir, to a 14 specific passage within that report, at any time, sir, 15 during the course of your interview, did you say anything 16 about the presence of heavy weapons at the Kettle and 17 Stoney Point Reserve? 18 A: I really can't remember. 19 Q: So you could have? 20 A: I remember talking about semi- 21 automatics, so I referred to some heavy weapons like -- 22 big stuff, like what I owned -- a RPK. 23 Q: But, did you actually say that anyone 24 apart from yourself, had heavy weapons at Kettle and 25 Stoney Point Reserve?

1 A: I can't remember. But that night I 2 referred to myself as having a lot of, what I'd call 3 heavy stuff. 4 Q: I'd like you to turn to Page 2 of 5 the report. The first paragraph -- the first complete 6 paragraph at the top of the page commencing, "After the 7 interview was ended --." I apologize, I have provided 8 everyone with the wrong number, it's 1005392. My 9 apologies. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 1005392? 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: Yes, sir, 12 it's -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: -- it's 15 written, I hope, at the top of the document, although I 16 may have miswritten it. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It is. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK JACKSON: 20 Q: My apologies. All right. You see 21 that paragraph, sir? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: It reads as follows: 24 "After the interview was ended with 25 Gerald George he continued to talk

1 about the people at the Army Camp. He 2 believes that there will be another 3 confrontation at the Ipperwash 4 Provincial Park. The on-fire group at 5 Thedford are demanding to have the Park 6 open on May 1st and that he is involved 7 in preparing small defensive units to 8 protect themselves in case there is a 9 confrontation." 10 And, in fairness, you had actually already 11 alluded to that in your testimony last Thursday. This is 12 the sentence I'm particularly interested in. 13 "Gerald George seemed to have some 14 knowledge on weaponry and alluded to a 15 number of heavy weapons being on the 16 Kettle Point reserve, but none in the 17 Ipperwash Army camp." 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Does that refresh your memory as to 20 what you may have told, or indeed, did tell Officer 21 Kennedy? 22 A: Yeah, I just told him I had some -- I 23 probably shouldn't have used the term "heavy weapons", 24 but that's what I said. I meant my AR-15 and the RPK. 25 Q: You see, what I find curious, sir, is

1 that nowhere in the report does it say that you were 2 referring to yourself, your own collection of firearms. 3 And, I appreciate that we would have to 4 hear from Officer Kennedy to -- to understand what it was 5 that he was writing down, but let me ask you this: did 6 you say anything about people other than yourself having 7 heavy weapons at Kettle Point reserve or still -- Kettle 8 and Stoney Point reserve, because that's the proper name 9 of it. 10 A: Hmm hmm. I really can't remember. 11 But I remember, like, I was telling him what I had. I 12 had weapons. I said heavy weapons. 13 Q: So, when you say you can't remember, 14 is it possible that you did? 15 A: No, but on here he doesn't say that I 16 was said several different people either. He just said 17 on Kettle Point. So maybe he assumed that I was talking 18 about other people when I was describing mine. 19 Q: That seems to be the assumption that 20 you'd have us draw in relation to what Mark Dew was 21 thinking as well. But that's for argument and I -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's for 23 argument. 24 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- won't pursue 25 that.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's not - 2 - not necessary. Go on. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 5 Q: So at the end of the day, sir, would 6 you agree with me that you would not be reluctant in 7 conveying to police about the presence of heavy weaponry 8 on the reserve? 9 A: Can you say that again? 10 Q: Would you agree with me that you 11 would not be reluctant to convey to the police about the 12 presence of heavy weaponry on the Kettle and Stony Point 13 reserve? 14 A: My -- my firearms I wouldn't. 15 Q: But not anybody else's? 16 A: This -- this -- no. 17 Q: You wouldn't tell the officer about 18 any other person's heavy weaponry? 19 A: I'm not -- I don't know. 20 Q: You don't know? 21 A: On this day I would. 22 Q: No, I'm talking about, sir, what you 23 did on January the 8th, 1996. 24 A: That is a long time ago. 25 Q: Yes, it is. But your recollection of

1 the events of September 6th, 1995 seem to be quite clear, 2 so I can only assume that your events of this interview 3 would also be quite clear. 4 A: I was -- is that a question? 5 Q: Yes, it is. I'm trying to determine 6 whether or not you conveyed to the police, on that day, 7 that individuals other than yourself had heavy weaponry 8 at Kettle and Stony Point. What's your -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 10 Henderson? Mr. Henderson has an objection. He's -- 11 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Again, with 12 respect, sir, he has answered this question. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he 14 has. 15 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: There's nothing 16 in that document that suggests he did convey -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I think 18 he has answered his question. He said that his testimony 19 is that he had heavy weapons. 20 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: No, I 21 understand that. I'm just trying to learn if he conveyed 22 to them that anyone else did and we seem to have had a 23 number of different answers to that question. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: But if -- if,

1 Mr. Commissioner, if you're satisfied, then I'll move on. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 3 you've gone over that point. 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 6 might be a good time, unless you're still on the same 7 issue. Are you on the same? 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 10 Q: The only -- the only final point, 11 sir, that I want to make then, it's your position that 12 Mark Dew mis-attributed words to you, correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: It would appear that the reporter, 15 Julie Carl mis-attributed words to you, correct? 16 A: She had some things out of context. 17 Q: It -- you'd agree also that Roderick 18 George has mis-attributed words to you? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you'd agree that Stuart George 21 has mis-attributed words to you? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And, certainly if Officer Kennedy 24 testifies down the road that you told him that people 25 other than yourself had heavy weaponry at Kettle and

1 Stony Point, he has mis-attributed words to you too? 2 A: I guess. 3 Q: That would be a good point, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 5 very much. We'll adjourn now for our morning break. 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 7 for fifteen (15) minutes. 8 9 --- Upon recessing at 11:40 a.m. 10 --- Upon resuming at 12:00 p.m. 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 13 resumed. Please be seated. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, Mr. 16 Commissioner. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 19 Q: Mr. George, you'd agree with me, sir, 20 that you have not always been truthful in your accounts 21 as to what transpired between you and Stewart George, on 22 the evening of September the 6th. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. So for -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry,

1 what was the question? You haven't always been truthful? 2 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Truthful, in 3 respect of his accounts of what occurred on the evening 4 of September the 6th, and he just agreed with that. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 6 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: And, I'm happy 7 to illustrate -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 9 fine. You've asked the question, he's given you an 10 answer. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 13 Q: In particular, sir, I want to take 14 you to your statement to the SIU officers of January the 15 8th, 1996, Tab 16 of the book in front of you. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Tab 16 did 17 you say? 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes, sir. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 21 Q: You recall meeting with the members 22 of the SIU that day, sir? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Yes. My Friend has reminded me that 25 I should provide the Inquiry Document number. I've got

1 several versions. I have it at 6000-408 but that's not-- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 3 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- what 4 everyone else has. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 100 -- 6 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Oh, excuse me. 7 No, no, no, I apologize. I've got the wrong document. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: A moments 12 indulgence, Mr. Commissioner. 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think what -- for 14 the rest -- for everyone else it's 100-2275. 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: That's correct. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's what 17 I thought it was, 100-2275. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 20 Q: Sir, in speaking to the SIU, I trust 21 you understood that they were interested in hearing from 22 you, your account of what occurred on the evening of 23 September the 6th, 1995? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: You understood that they were

1 interested, I trust, in hearing the truth? 2 A: In the what? 3 Q: In the truth. You understood that 4 the police were interested in hearing the truth from you. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Right, okay. You have already 7 testified before this Inquiry that during the 8 confrontation with Stewart George, he hit you in the side 9 of the head, correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And -- and I can advise you, sir, 12 that -- that Stewart George, when he testified, also 13 acknowledged that he used physical force against you 14 during that confrontation, all right? So that appears 15 not to be an issue anymore, okay? And, for the record 16 he's just nodded in affirmative. 17 If I can take you to page 2 of your 18 statement, sir. We know, when you met with Officer Poole 19 within minutes of the incident, you did not volunteer 20 that you had been struck by Stewart George, correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. In this interview, the 23 interview of January 1996, you were specifically asked by 24 Officer Kennedy, and I'm looking at -- towards the bottom 25 of the page:

1 "Q: Were you ever struck by Stewart 2 George? 3 A: Ah, no." 4 Do you recall being asked that question 5 and giving that answer? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And, indeed, you agree that you did 8 give that answer; correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And that wasn't true; correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: So, you were prepared to mislead the 13 authorities about what had happened on September the 6th, 14 1995? 15 A: I just didn't want that -- any 16 assaults being in the record, like, Natives fighting 17 Natives. 18 Q: Let's go back to my question. You 19 were prepared to mislead the authorities about what had 20 occurred that night? 21 A: Just on the assault. 22 Q: Just on the assault. So, the answer 23 to my question is, Yes, in specific areas? 24 A: Just in one area, the assault. 25 Q: Okay. Just on the assault. Turn to

1 page 5, please. A little more than halfway down the page 2 Officer Kennedy asks you the following question. And, 3 again, he appears to be referring to the time frame of 4 September 1995: 5 "Q: Was there any firearms on the 6 Army Camp? 7 A: -- " 8 Do you see where I am, sir? Page 5. 9 A: Yeah. I was on the wrong page. 10 Q: Not a problem. A little bit more 11 than halfway down -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- 14 "Q: Was there any firearms on the 15 Army Camp? 16 A: I have no idea." 17 And that wasn't true, was it, sir? 18 A: At the time he probably meant, Are 19 there any firearms on the Camp right now, and at the time 20 I couldn't tell him. 21 Q: Well, you see, the difficulty, sir, 22 is he didn't ask, Are there any firearms on the Army 23 Camp. The question was, Was there any firearms on the 24 Army Camp, it's past tense. And, your answer is: 25 "I have no idea."

1 You go on: 2 "I couldn't tell you." 3 You'd agree with me, Mr. George, having 4 regard to -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 6 You have to finish the -- I think to be fair to the 7 witness -- 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Oh yes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you 10 should finish that -- that answer. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 13 Q: Fair enough. 14 "The only thing I know would -- they'd 15 probably had firearms to hunt." 16 And, you used the word "probably". 17 A: Yes. Probably. It wasn't 18 affirmative answer, I couldn't say yes or no to that. 19 Q: He -- 20 A: I said, Probably. 21 Q: Right. Okay. So, and I know that 22 you may think it's odd that I care about one (1) word or 23 another, but it is important, the impression that you 24 leave with people. So, it's clear here, that initially 25 you say:

1 "I have no idea, I couldn't tell you, 2 they probably did." 3 But, if we go back, sir, to the evidence 4 that you gave this Inquiry about what you told to the 5 reporter back in August of 1995 -- and, again, Mr. 6 Commissioner and My Friends, I'm referring to page 43 of 7 the January 13th, 2005 transcript. 8 Your answer to My Friend Mr. Miller about 9 what you would have told the reporter appears at line 17: 10 "I said people hunt there in the fall 11 all the time. They hunt deer. They 12 have guns. There's guns on the Army -- 13 Army Base. That's what I said." 14 A: That refers to the -- the newspaper. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Right. 18 A: At the time that's what I said. 19 Q: You didn't -- you didn't tell the 20 reporter, There are probably guns. You said, There are 21 guns. Right? 22 A: I must have if it was -- if that's 23 what I said. 24 Q: Right. 25 A: But to the police, I never said that

1 are guns. I said they probably have. 2 Q: Probably have. 3 A: Just like it says in your written 4 report here, the SIU report. I didn't confirm it or 5 denied it either way. 6 Q: SIU report isn't my report, sir. 7 A: Well, they're former police so. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: You'd agree with me, sir, that if you 12 were to admit today that you told Mark Dew that you had 13 seen semi-automatic weapons at the base or even at the 14 Park, you would be fearful, rightly or wrongly, of the 15 ramifications you might face as a result of making that 16 kind of admission. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's pretty 18 -- I'm not -- 19 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: I don't -- I 20 don't think that's a proper question. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 22 that that's a question. 23 THE WITNESS: I don't know how to answer 24 that. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just leave

1 it. Do you want to comment? No? 2 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: In that case, 3 I'll -- I'll make a supplemental here, Mr. Commissioner. 4 The witness has given evidence in terms of 5 what he told Constable Dew, right? That evidence is that 6 he used the word "probably". The last document My Friend 7 has referred to is an actual transcript, with which he 8 has agreed, which also uses the word "probably". 9 There's one (1) statement where he didn't 10 use the word "probably", which was to a newspaper 11 reporter where he may or may not have said that. He 12 doesn't know for sure. Short of calling the reporter and 13 examining her notes, we don't know either. 14 Now he's being asked if, you know, if his 15 evidence would be completely different or, if in light of 16 all the consistencies that are already there, whether he 17 would be fearful to say something completely different 18 which brings in all of these extraneous factors, when in 19 fact, there's no inconsistency to deal with here. 20 There may be a question of argument. 21 Maybe it'd be worthwhile calling back this witness once 22 we have heard from officer Dew, who doesn't appear to be 23 entirely consistent himself. 24 But, we'll find that out in due course. 25 But, this is simply not a proper question, you know,

1 saying in light of all of this documented consistent 2 evidence, wouldn't you be fearful to have said something 3 else? 4 Well for seven (7) -- for nearly ten (10) 5 years, he's said the same thing. Why ask him now if he'd 6 be afraid to say something different? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Yes, 8 Mr. Millar? 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, I think that -- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- he's been very 12 consistent about what he said and the -- but I think that 13 the -- the -- and so I agree with Mr. Henderson, to that 14 extent. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 16 to rephrase the question or put the question differently 17 or... 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: First of all, 19 Mr. Commissioner, there are two (2) points. This witness 20 has now acknowledged, before this Inquiry, that he told 21 the reporter, that's why I took him back to Page 43, that 22 he told the reporter with no uncertainty that there were 23 firearms at the Army base, and that was as of August the 24 3rd, 1995 when that article was published. 25 My point, in drawing up the prior

1 inconsistent statement, was to show that this witness is 2 not consistent as to his representations as to the 3 presence or absence of firearms. And, I think I've made 4 that point, and I'm going to go on. 5 My next issue that I wanted to address, 6 sir, is that this witness, regardless of what he has said 7 in the interim, following his conversation with Officer 8 Dew, but this witness, today, has a motive not to be 9 candid about what my client contends he told Officer Dew. 10 And that motive is that he would be 11 fearful of certain ramifications if he were have -- to 12 have to admit, within a public venue, that he had told 13 Officer Dew that he had eyeballed semi-automatic weapons 14 at the base. That, sir, is my point. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think that -- on 16 that issue, I think that's a fair question. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If he had 18 told them, that's the thing. 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Agreed. But in 20 my respectful submission, I can still put to him that for 21 him to make that kind of admission, he is fearful rightly 22 or wrongly, but fearful of certain ramifications that 23 would follow from it. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, why 25 don't you try to ask the question again. I'm sure you're

1 confused, right? 2 THE WITNESS: No, she did -- I -- she's 3 just saying, Am I scared of anything if I -- if I say 4 what she wants me to say? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 6 THE WITNESS: Is that what it is? 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 8 to leave it or that or do you -- would you prefer to 9 rephrase the question so that he's answering your 10 question? 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Well, that's a 12 rather succinct way of putting it, but -- 13 THE WITNESS: That's -- 14 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- perhaps I'll 15 tweak it a little bit. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 18 Q: I'm suggesting to you, sir, that for 19 you to tell us today that you had conveyed to Officer 20 Dew, that you had seen semi-automatic weapons at the Base 21 or anywhere for that matter, on the occupied lands, you'd 22 be scared to do because of the ramifications that would 23 flow from making such an admission? 24 A: No, I wouldn't. 25 Q: Okay. I want -- I want to pursue

1 that a bit. We know, sir -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a -- 3 yes, Mr. Henderson? You got an answer to your question. 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes I did, sir, 5 and I -- I'm entitled, in my respectful submission, to 6 challenge his credibility on that point and I'd like to 7 do so with a series of very tight questions. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's see 9 where you go -- let's see where you're going. 10 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 13 Q: We know, sir, that you were assaulted 14 for the reason that you identified before us, the reason 15 being, you were assaulted by Stewart George because you 16 wrote a letter that was published in the local paper 17 referring to the Occupiers as jerks and animals. Can we 18 agree on that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. You claimed to us, sir, that 21 you did not tell Officer Poole, that uniform officer, 22 that you had been physically assaulted, because in 23 essence, you didn't want to stir up the pot and give the 24 police some concern about the situation. Is that fair? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: In particular, because this is an 2 important point, I want to take you back to what you 3 actually said to us. Mr. Commissioner, I'm referring to 4 Page 29 -- excuse me ninety-nine (99) of the transcript 5 from last Thursday. And in response to a question by my 6 Friend, Mr. Millar, you had the following. Question -- 7 excuse me, you said the following: 8 "Q: And why did not tell the police 9 officer about Mr. Stewart George 10 hitting you? 11 A: That goes back to when I first 12 stated that when I saw the other 13 officers yelling at -- kind of throwing 14 comments at the dump truck -- and I 15 thought I was going to when I pulled up 16 there. I was really mad, but then I -- 17 I was thinking there's -- I think Worm, 18 if he is drunk, he's probably going to 19 give them more trouble and I'm -- I'm 20 not going to report that he assaulted 21 me. That's all the cops would need to 22 hear -- that someone got assaulted 23 along that road. So, that's why I 24 didn't report that." 25 That was your evidence last Thursday.

1 Correct? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So, the reason you did not disclose 4 it, at that time, to the police, was that you didn't want 5 to give them a piece of information that might stir the 6 pot, if I can put it that way? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: I really didn't want that being 10 written down. 11 Q: I beg your pardon? 12 A: I really didn't want that being 13 written down anywhere. 14 Q: Right. See, I'm going to suggest to 15 you, sir, that you did not disclose that detail to the 16 police because you were concerned, rightly or wrongly, of 17 the ramifications for you if you had made a complaint 18 about an assault. 19 A: Your assumption's wrong. I'm sorry. 20 Q: I find that curious, sir, because you 21 told us on Thursday that when you saw Cecil Bernard 22 George, after this altercation with Stewart George, you 23 didn't tell him about the assault either. Right? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And, certainly, you wouldn't have to

1 worry about his perspective about stirring up the pot; 2 correct? 3 A: Can you repeat that? 4 Q: Sure. You've told us that the reason 5 you don't tell the police is you're worried about their 6 having that piece of information and that might ratchet 7 up the situation. Right? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Well, surely that could not have been 10 the justification or -- or rationalization as to why you 11 did not convey it to Bernard George? 12 A: I didn't feel it was important to 13 tell Bernard that. 14 Q: You did not feel that that was 15 important? 16 A: No. 17 Q: See I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 18 that you didn't tell it to him either because you didn't 19 want it out in the community that you were making an 20 allegation of assault against Stewart George. You can 21 agree or disagree. 22 A: I disagree with your assumption. 23 Q: See, also, sir, it's curious because 24 if your explanation is true as to why you did not 25 disclose that to Officer Poole, it's entirely unclear to

1 me, why in January of 1996, when the occupation at the 2 Park and the presence of the police have long passed, you 3 were still inclined to deliberately mislead them about 4 whether or not you had been hit. 5 A: I didn't want that being put down on 6 any records, that Natives were fighting Natives. 7 Q: I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 8 that the reason you did not volunteer it, is again, you 9 did not want it out there, in public purview, that you 10 had made a claim of assault because you were concerned, 11 rightly or wrongly, about the ramifications that followed 12 it. 13 A: No. I'm going to have to disagree 14 with you again. 15 Q: There's another piece of paper, sir, 16 that I've put in front of you. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: And, for the benefit -- benefit of My 21 Friends, it's Document number 1011-112. And again, I've 22 provided a copy to you, Mr. Commissioner. It's a 23 document, sir, entitled News Release, Stoney Point First 24 Nation number 43 Aazhoodena, and my -- I cannot -- I 25 apologize to those present, I can't pronounce the next

1 word. 2 For immediate release, dated Tuesday, 3 October the 22nd, 1996. And, it is an account, and it's 4 unclear who the author is, but it's an account of an 5 update of the status of charges that were facing a number 6 of the occupiers. 7 I'm interested, sir, in the final 8 paragraph. Stewart George's trial was adjourned to 9 Wednesday, October the 23rd, by the Crown request because 10 their material witness did not appear before the court. 11 The judge issued a material witness warrant for Kettle 12 Point Band Councillor, Gerald C. George. 13 Now, first of all, Mr. George, were you 14 subpoenaed in relation to the charge that Stewart George 15 faced? 16 A: Yes, I was and I was told to be there 17 on a certain date. 18 Q: And the date you were told to be 19 there, was that October the 21st? 20 A: I can't remember. 21 Q: Did it come to your attention, sir, 22 that a material witness warrant was issued for your 23 arrest? 24 A: No, it wasn't. 25 Q: That didn't come to your attention?

1 A: No, it didn't come to my attention. 2 I was told by the police to be there on a certain date 3 and I was. This is an official court document. They 4 have an official court document that might have stated in 5 there. 6 Q: So, I gather then, what you're 7 telling us is that the author of this document got this 8 wrong, that no material witness warrant was issued for 9 you? 10 A: What I'm saying, is you don't have an 11 official court document saying that. Issuing an official 12 court document. All I was told, to be there on that date 13 and I was there. And I didn't -- 14 Q: And what happened, sir, -- 15 A: -- and I -- I didn't even have to go 16 into the courtroom. The police told me, he agreed to 17 whatever it was, and I got to leave. 18 Q: And, that was when you learned that 19 Mr. George was pleading guilty to the offense of mischief 20 to property? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: So, if there's information out there 23 that you were supposed to be in court earlier and you did 24 not show up, you don't know anything about that? 25 A: No, I don't. I was told to be there

1 on a date and I was. 2 Q: Sir, I'm suggesting to you that it 3 may be that you're being truthful about a number of 4 matters before this Inquiry, but that you are not being 5 truthful as to the full breadth of information that you 6 conveyed to Officer Dew, on the evening of September 6th, 7 1995. 8 A: You say that so nicely, but I'm going 9 to have to disagree with you. 10 Q: Mr. Commissioner, those are my 11 questions. Thank you. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 13 very much. I think Ms. Karen Jones is next to cross- 14 examine; Karen Jones represents the OPPA. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones, 19 is your time estimate lengthened, shortened or not 20 changed as a result of what's happened so far? 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 22 believe I'll be about two (2) hours. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 24 think that's what you estimated. 25

1 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 2 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 3 A: Good morning. 4 Q: As the Commissioner said, my name's 5 Karen Jones and I'm one (1) of the lawyers who represents 6 the Ontario Provincial Police Association. 7 Mr. George, I wanted to take you back and 8 just to ask if you can help us with a little bit more 9 information about the structure of the band and its 10 council. You told us that, since 1992, you were a 11 Councillor. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And, can you just tell us, in 1992, 14 when you were elected Councillor, how many Councillors 15 there were at the time? 16 A: There was nine (9) of us. 17 Q: Okay. And there was a Chief that was 18 also elected as well. Is that right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And, how often does -- or at that 21 time, did your band have elections? 22 A: Every two (2) years. 23 Q: Okay. And who could vote in those 24 elections? 25 A: At first, it was just on-reserve band

1 members, but after the new law, all band membership can 2 vote -- they can do a mail-in vote. 3 Q: Okay. So, you didn't have -- 4 A: So -- 5 Q: -- to be in residence in order to 6 vote? 7 A: Basic -- I think the -- the new 8 election rules just come in -- they -- the probably used 9 them in 2002 - the mail in votes? 10 Q: Okay, so at the time when you were 11 elected in 1992 and I take it throughout the nineties, it 12 would have been people who were on the reserve could 13 vote? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. And, that included people who 16 would have identified themselves both as being Kettle 17 Point and Stoney Point or Kettle and Stony Point? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. And, there's a document in the 20 materials that we've looked at, Mr. George, in which you 21 said that you were one (1) of four (4) people on the 22 committee working to have land returned and by that you 23 had meant the Base. That was in one (1) of the newspaper 24 reports that we looked at last week. Do you recall that? 25 A: Yes. There -- there were several

1 different committees that were struck before -- I -- I 2 can remember before the incident and after the incident. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: There was a large committee formed 5 after the incident. 6 Q: Okay, but I -- I take -- I took it 7 from looking at that newspaper report, that since 1992, 8 that is since you were elected, you had been working on a 9 committee that was involved in getting the land returned? 10 A: Probably in '93/'94. 11 Q: Okay. And were you chosen to sit on 12 that committee or did you volunteer? Can you help us 13 understand how that was struck? 14 A: I think back then we just 15 volunteered. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: We would -- we'd post out for some 18 community members to sit on it as well. 19 Q: Okay. And, was the Chief a member of 20 that community or did you report to him or can -- can you 21 think back and remember how that was set up? 22 A: He wasn't a member of the committee. 23 He just heard the reports when we have Council meetings. 24 Q: Okay. And, so far as you knew at 25 that time, would you have been updated or would you have

1 known the status of negotiations that were going on about 2 the Army Camp? 3 A: Yeah. The Committee would probably 4 be informed what was happening. 5 Q: Okay. And, you also told us last 6 week that you had been on the policing committee since 7 1996? 8 A: Yeah, the Kettle Point Police 9 Committee. 10 Q: Okay. And, prior to 1996, that is 11 prior to the time you sat on the policing committee, but 12 you were a councillor, would you and other councillors 13 have received reports from the police? 14 Would you have gotten information from 15 them on an ongoing basis about policing matters and the 16 kind of things they were involved in? 17 A: Just with things to do with the 18 community. Council really never got involved in the -- 19 the like, police issues, but there was still a committee 20 there but I wasn't a part of it. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: So, the Committee Chair would give a 23 report to Council during the Council meetings. 24 Q: Okay. And, would those reports 25 include the kind of matters that the police had been

1 looking into or were concerned about -- 2 A: Some -- 3 Q: -- sort of a status report? 4 A: As long as it didn't break the 5 confidentiality -- 6 Q: Sure. 7 A: -- like with investigations. 8 Q: Right. Okay. And I understand that 9 between, for example, 1992 and 1996, when you were on the 10 policing committee, that the police were under the 11 direction and the control of the Band? 12 A: I was on there from '96 onward. 13 Q: Right. 14 A: We -- we couldn't direct them what to 15 do. It was a -- I believe it was a tri-partheid kind of 16 agreement with the province. 17 Q: Okay. And, you also answered a 18 couple of Mr. Millar's questions last week about the 19 Three Fires Confederacy. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And, I wondered could you give us a 22 little bit of background on the Three Fires Confederacy; 23 who's involved in that? 24 A: That would be the -- the three (3) -- 25 the three (3) Peoples that make up the Three Fires would

1 be the Ottawa, the Ojibway and the Pouteoutami. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: The -- well just call it -- we're all 4 called the Anishnaabe -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: -- but that's the Three Fires. 7 Q: And, I wanted to ask you, Mr. George, 8 some questions about the Army Camp, the Base, and a 9 little bit about the history of it. And, I just want to 10 make it clear that if you don't know the answers to some 11 questions, you should just say so. And, if you do, it 12 would be helpful to hear what you say about it. 13 I understand that we'll hear some 14 evidence, that in 1980, the federal government paid $2.5 15 million to the Band as compensation or at least partial 16 compensation, for the expropriation of the Base. Was 17 that something that you knew about? 18 A: I didn't really -- I think I was only 19 about maybe fifteen (15), sixteen (16) at the time. 20 Q: Right. 21 A: I think I remember, yeah, everyone 22 got a share of money. 23 Q: Okay. Now, it -- it appears from 24 some documents in the database, and I'll take you to one 25 (1) in a minute, in fact there's a copy of it on your

1 table, that it looks like there were some bad feelings, 2 that the money went to the Band and it was shared amongst 3 the Band rather than going to the Stoney Pointers who 4 were relocated; was that something that you knew about? 5 A: There was some incidents in the early 6 80s. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: 90 -- or '80 to '83. I can't hardly 9 remember, but there was a friction between some of the 10 and the Chief in Council at the time. 11 Q: Okay. About the allocation of that 12 money? 13 A: Well, I can't really remember what 14 it was about, but they distributed half of that 2.5 15 million -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- and they put the rest into a -- 18 an account -- 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: And, I think that's -- I think the 21 people wanted the rest of it given out. I'm not sure. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: But I think that's what it was. 24 Q: Okay. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And, I want to move ahead a little 4 bit now, Mr. George, to 1993 and to the occupation of 5 the base by some of the members of the Band. 6 And, I think you told us that the Band 7 and the council were not told about the occupation, 8 until after the fact. Is that -- 9 A: No, I -- I wasn't even told about 10 it. 11 Q: You weren't -- you weren't even told 12 about it? 13 A: No, I didn't know about it until I 14 heard it on -- 15 Q: Okay. And I take it that that 16 occupation, then, was not done with the approval of the 17 Band or the council? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. And, did you have any 20 information at the time about why the base was occupied? 21 What was your understanding at the time about what was 22 going on? 23 A: I think after that I -- I was -- I 24 learned that it was done just to move negotiations 25 forward or make a statement that it's been too long in

1 the Army's hands. 2 Q: So, to advance the land claim? 3 A: Something to that effect -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: I think mostly it was a protest to 6 tell the Army that they'd been there too long and it 7 would -- should be given back. 8 Q: Okay. And, was another reason for 9 the occupation that some of the older locatees wanted to 10 go home? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: Some of them wanted to move back 14 onto the land. 15 Q: Right. And from -- you've told us 16 that you were on the base, in that summer of 1993 for a 17 period of time. And that -- were you aware whether or 18 not those -- t