1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 January 13th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )    (np)
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )    (np)
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  
  7  Murray Klippenstein )            The Estate of Dudley 
  8  Vilko Zbogar       ) (np)       George and George
  9  Andrew Orkin       )  (np)      Family Group
 10  Basil Alexander    )            Student-at-Law
 11  
 12  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 13  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 14  
 15  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 16  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena
 17                                   (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stoney
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Sue Freeborn     )   (np)
 25  Michelle Pong    )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )   (np)       The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )              Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 11  
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  
 15  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 16  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 17  
 18  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 19  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 20  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 21  
 22  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 23  Karen Jones      )              Police Association &
 24  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 25  Ian McGilp       )   (np)

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  
  7  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
  8  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
  9  
 10  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 11  Matthew Horner   )       
 12  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 13  
 14  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 15  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 16  Megan Mackey     )
 17  
 18  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 19  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 20  Melissa Panjer   )   (np)
 21  Danya Cohen-Nehemia )     
 22  
 23  
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 GERALD GEORGE, Resumed 7 Continued Examination-in-Chief 8 by Mr. Derry Millar 7 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 161 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 166 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 190 12 13 14 15 16 Certificate of Transcript 250 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 4 P-119 Letter dated February 9th, 1995 22 5 from Gerald George to the Editor of 6 the Forest Standard. 7 8 P-120 Document No. 2001978, London Free 45 9 Press, Section A, August 03/95 10 "Ipperwash Takeover" reference to 11 Gerald George. 12 13 P-121 Doc No. 1002409 page 13 map of 14 Ipperwash Military Reserve marked by 15 witness Mr. Gerald George JAN 13/05 65 16 17 P-122 Copy of Exhibit P-23. 118 18 19 P-123 September 6, 1995 interview 20 report taken by police Constable Poole 21 with signature on each page. 162 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:03 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Please be seated. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 morning, everybody. Nice to be on time. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning. 14 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 15 16 GERALD CHRISTOPHER GEORGE, Resumed 17 18 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 19 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. We were-- 20 A: Good morning. 21 Q: -- yesterday, talking about your 22 movement into the Army Camp in May of 1993, and before I 23 got there I wanted to ask you a question about -- you 24 told us yesterday the you did some hunting when you were 25 in high school on the Army Camp.

1 And can you tell me what kind of a rifle 2 or gun did you have when you were in high school? 3 A: I'd use a .22 Magnum -- 4 Q: And -- 5 A: -- and a bolt action .22 Marlin. 6 Q: And was that a rifle that you 7 received from someone or you purchased yourself? 8 A: No, my parents bought me that for my 9 15th birthday. 10 Q: And so that was the rifle you used 11 when you hunted when you were in highschool? 12 A: Yeah, mostly and then later on I 13 used a .223; I think it was a Ruger. 14 Q: A .223? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay. Now you were -- you told us 17 yesterday that when you moved onto the Army Camp in May 18 of 1993, that you stayed with your uncle Pete Cloud and 19 your cousins? 20 A: Yeah, that's right. 21 Q: And you stayed in the area along 22 Highway 21 that -- to the east of the building that you 23 described as the weapons hut? 24 A: The range shed. 25 Q: The range shed?

1 A: Yeah. Well, that's what we called 2 it when I worked there anyway. 3 Q: You called it that when you worked 4 there? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And it was on -- when one looks at 7 Exhibit P-40, it was the area -- in the area just to the 8 west of the rifle range and to the south of the thirty 9 (30) yard range on that document in front of you? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And how long did you stay at the 12 Army Camp during the summer of -- of 1993? 13 A: Probably until maybe early August -- 14 maybe the first weekend in August, somewhere around 15 there. 16 Q: And when you were at the Army Camp 17 from the -- from the time you went in, in early May to 18 the beginning -- early part of August, how often did -- 19 did you go to the Army Camp? 20 A: I stayed overnight quite a bit, just 21 when I had to go home for meetings or had to go away for 22 meetings. I -- I stayed at home once in a while, but 23 most of the time I stayed at the -- the Campground there 24 with my uncle. 25 Q: And the -- when you were on the --

1 the -- in the summer of 1993, did you assist in the 2 building of a -- construction of a building on the Army 3 Camp? 4 A: Not really. That was built by my 5 uncle, Peter Cloud. Again, my father Victor George and 6 Kerman (phonetic) -- Kerman Rogers. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: They -- they constructed that. It 9 was supposed to be a church and a meeting place -- 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: -- for the people there. And my 12 father made a steeple for that building, with a cross on 13 it. He put it up on there, too, because they wanted it 14 to be a church so he put that up there, too. 15 Q: And the -- when was that? Do you 16 recall when that building was built? 17 A: Probably around mid-July, early 18 July, somewhere round there. I can't -- it's like nine 19 (9) -- quite a while ago. 20 Q: Pardon me? 21 A: It's quite a while ago, you know -- 22 Q: And -- 23 A: -- like twelve (12), thirteen (13) 24 years ago. 25 Q: -- so if you'd take a look at

1 Exhibit P-40 that's up on the screen. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Is that building located just to the 6 east of the road that leads -- that has the sign -- the 7 name on it "grenade range"? 8 It might be easier to look at that -- 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: -- map in front of you. Can you 11 just, using your pointer, point out where the building 12 is? 13 A: I think right -- right here on this 14 side of the road, isn't it? Right around that area. 15 Q: And -- you're right. I think that I 16 was mistaken. It's the -- there's a dot here just to 17 the left of the transition range and close to the point 18 where your camp was. Is that where that building was 19 located? 20 A: Yeah, it's pretty close to there. 21 Right around this area here. 22 Q: Okay. And what happened to the 23 steeple that was built on the top of the church -- on 24 the building? 25 A: Well, after -- after I moved out,

1 I'm not sure when it was, maybe late August, early 2 September, some of the people in there told me that it 3 was someone else climbed on the roof and kicked it off, 4 chopped the cross off and then kicked the steeple off 5 the roof. 6 Q: And the building exists today? 7 A: Yeah, the building's there. 8 Q: And it's -- when you were there in 9 the summer of 1993, it was used as a meeting hall? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And why did you leave in the early 12 part of August of 1993? 13 A: I was starting to get uncomfortable 14 from being -- staying there. 15 Q: And can -- why -- what do you mean 16 by "getting uncomfortable"? 17 A: Gradually some of the people start - 18 - it wasn't direct -- directly telling me anything, but, 19 like, we'd all go to each others campground and sit 20 there and share soup. Everybody would take turns making 21 homemade soup and stuff. 22 Once I went there to get some and someone 23 said make room for Tom's spy, the Chief. So I just -- I 24 just left. 25 And another time I gave someone a ride

13
  1  and when I dropped them off they -- it was raining and
  2  when I dropped them off they told me I shouldn't be at
  3  Stoney Point because I was a Band councillor.
  4                 Little things like that, so I just told
  5  my uncle, well, it's time for me to go.  I didn't want
  6  them to start on telling him anything so I just packed
  7  up all my -- all my equipment and left.
  8                 Q:   And your uncle, Pete Cloud, stayed
  9  for the summer?
 10                 A:   Yeah, I think he stayed there for a
 11  while longer.
 12                 Q:   And the -- on the issue of the
 13  meeting hall and the steeple, I understand you wrote an
 14  article for the London Free Press on the issue?
 15                 A:   Yeah.  It made me really angry that
 16  someone would do that, disrespect the work that my dad
 17  did but my mother's -- she just said, let it go, you
 18  know.  Whoever did that, something will happen to them. 
 19  You can't do that to a -- to anything that people --
 20  people work real hard at, you know.  She told me just to
 21  let it go, so I...
 22                 Q:   And as part of your -- do you -- I
 23  take it you write -- do you write letters on a frequent
 24  basis on issues?
 25                 A:   Yes, I do.  I'm not a -- not a --

1 I'm not a councillor who'd just sit there and not say 2 anything, a bump on a log councillor. If something 3 happens, people come to me. They say, Why aren't 4 Council doing something about this stuff. 5 So the only -- the only thing I can 6 really do is let the outside world know that we all 7 don't, you know, agree with a lot of the things that are 8 going on. 9 Q: And when you were there at the Army 10 Camp in the summer of 1993, did you observe helicopters. 11 A: We heard them one (1) night flying 12 around. I didn't see them. But one (1) day we -- we 13 didn't stay at -- or camp overnight and we went back, 14 you know, the way dome tents are constructed they -- 15 they go in a dome shape and you peg them into the 16 ground. 17 We went back and our tents were lying all 18 over the place. Like somebody threw them around but 19 later on we learned that there was a helicopter hovering 20 right over our campground and must have -- that must 21 have blew the tents over and made a mess of everything. 22 Q: Made a -- but you -- you didn't 23 actually yourself see any of the helicopters flying over 24 the area on the Army Camp where people were camping? 25 A: No. My mom was there one (1) night.

1 She said she saw helicopters and I think my Uncle Bud 2 hit it with a spotlight and shone on it. 3 Q: And I take it from what you said, 4 you were not on the Army Camp in late August when there 5 was an alleged incident with respect to a helicopter? 6 A: No. I wasn't there. 7 Q: And when you were living at the Army 8 Camp in May through early August 1993, did you 9 participate in activities on the Army Camp? 10 A: Me and my cousin Dwayne Cloud and 11 our other Cousins Blaine and Joe Cloud and Charlie and 12 Dave Cloud, we -- we stayed up most of the night and 13 just walked around the perimeters of our camp, around 14 everybody's separate little camps. We'd walk around 15 just to make sure like nobody would know the Army was 16 coming up and bug with the people and stuff. 17 Q: So that you would walk around your 18 camp at night with your cousin Dwayne and who is the 19 other person? 20 A: Blaine and Joe Cloud would help us 21 and Dave and Charlie Cloud. 22 Q: Dave? 23 A: And Charlie Cloud. They're Dean's - 24 - Dean Cloud's boys. 25 Q: Okay. And would you act as security

1 for your camp or all of the camps along Highway 21? 2 A: All of the camps. We would be 3 security for all of the camps. If we -- if anything 4 happened we were supposed to tell the -- the Elders, 5 like Robert or Carl or Maynard if anything happened. We 6 were strictly told not to cause trouble. 7 If any of the Army guys come by swearing 8 at us, we weren't suppose to, like, do anything back. 9 We were just suppose to write it down. Because Robert 10 talked to the camp commander quite a bit. 11 Q: And so as I understand it then, that 12 you did this at night and you would then sleep in the 13 day? 14 A: Yeah. We couldn't sleep too long 15 because the sun would get -- shine on the tents so it 16 would make it really hot. Can sleep maybe 'til 10:30, 17 ten o'clock. 18 Q: And you organized this with Mr. 19 Robert George Jr. or -- he's known as Nobby, is that 20 correct? 21 A: Yeah, he was our -- he was our 22 leader back then. We listened to him. 23 Q: And Carl -- Carl George now known as 24 Carl Tulsma (phonetic) was -- 25 A: Yeah. Carl was starting to take a

1 kind of a leadership role about in June this summer. 2 Because he had his -- he had a trailer in there, maybe 3 two (2) trailers. I'm not -- I can't really remember. 4 But he had his -- his little campground beside everybody 5 too. 6 Q: And so that you were -- if you 7 observed anything were suppose to write it down and 8 report it to either Mr. Robert George Jr. or Mr. Carl 9 George and they would take it up with the Army? 10 A: Yeah or Maynard. 11 Q: Or Maynard T? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And by Maynard T, we mean Maynard T. 14 George? 15 A: Yeah, yeah. I just called him 16 Maynard T. 17 Q: And how long did you do the 18 security? The whole period of time you were in -- on 19 the Camp? 20 A: Yeah. Probably May, June, and into 21 July. 22 Q: And did -- were you aware of the 23 burying the hatchet ceremony held at the Army Camp? 24 A: Yes, I was. 25 Q: Did you attend it?

1 A: No, I didn't. It's not Anishinabek 2 practice. 3 Q: Okay. Now before I move on, the -- 4 in 19 -- after you left in early August, 1993, did you 5 go back to the Army Camp either in the fall of 1993 or 6 in 1994? 7 A: In 1993 I'd go back and hunt -- hunt 8 ducks around the -- where the Shermans were -- the 9 Sherman and the Chieftain. 10 Q: And that's an area around the motor 11 range? 12 A: Rocket range, actually, anti-tank 13 rocket range. Right about -- right about here. 14 Q: So, it's an area just to the south 15 of -- on Exhibit P-40 -- where it says "motor range", 16 just to the south of there? 17 A: Yeah. Beavers made a dam back there 18 and it formed kind of a nice pond -- good for duck 19 hunting, so I'd go in there. Still, in the fall after I 20 moved out, I still went there for a ride and visit and 21 I'd hunt deer there, too, in the fall. I'd take my .223 22 in there and -- 23 Q: And hunt deer? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And in -- if I can take you to -- in

1 1993, were you considering training for a Park -- to be 2 a Park Warden? 3 A: What I can remember, I think I -- I 4 think I was. I think we were working along with the MNR 5 -- Windic McNab (phonetic). 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: It was a -- it was supposed to kind 8 of Park Warden and to ride along with the -- with the 9 MNR during their Game Warden patrols, from what I can 10 remember because we're -- a lot of our people were out 11 night hunting. Well, it wasn't -- had -- didn't have 12 anything to do with the Camp, it had with our people 13 hunting out in our traditional territory -- 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: -- out near Elvin's Stand (phonetic) 16 outside of London and we were thinking maybe if I could 17 have trained I could have gone out and if we encountered 18 any of our people, I could have handled the situation a 19 little better. Didn't have really anything to do with 20 the -- the Army Base. 21 Q: It didn't have anything to do with 22 the Army Camp, it was to just assist in -- 23 A: Yeah, because I -- I worked -- one 24 (1) of my portfolios was to work along with the Ministry 25 and to take up issues with them and that -- that's one

1 (1). We were talking to Les Kobayashi, the Manager of 2 the Pinery and he's also manager of the Ipperwash 3 Provincial Park. That's what were talking about. Maybe 4 I could have got training. 5 Q: And it's -- 6 A: That's all that was about. 7 Q: Pardon me? 8 A: That's all that was about. 9 Q: And did it come about? Were you 10 trained? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. And the -- if I could take 13 you to Tab 2 of the book in front of you, there's a 14 letter to the editor, it's the Forest Standard of 15 February 9th, 1994 and it's two (2) pages and I believe 16 it's Inquiry Document 1002054. 17 And this is a letter that you wrote to 18 the editor, Mr. George? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And why did you write this letter to 21 the editor in February of 1994? 22 A: I was getting -- I didn't like the 23 way the whole thing was starting to turn. When -- when 24 we first moved into the Base it was just to get the land 25 back. And over -- over time, starting about late -- in

1 September 1993 it started to turn into a separatist 2 issue. 3 And I -- and I -- and I had a meeting 4 once. I said, The only people who can say that we are 5 separate is everybody in the Nation in a vote, and that 6 -- and that's all Band members, you know? 7 And gradually the separatists -- some 8 people started pushing that movement and they started 9 using the newspapers and media, saying that they were 10 being treated unfairly by the Kettle Point Council. 11 And I didn't agree with that and I asked 12 -- I asked the Council, I said, Are we going to release 13 anything to the newspapers -- our view and nobody wanted 14 to. So I wrote this to let everybody know, you know, 15 we're not separate. 16 Q: So the concern that you had was that 17 a -- there were people who wanted to separate the Stoney 18 Point from the -- from Kettle Point and set it up as a 19 separate Band? 20 A: Yes. And -- and I couldn't -- over 21 the time, like, my mother's from Stoney Point and my 22 father's from Kettle Point. I kept telling people from 23 Kettle and Stony Point, I said, don't try to make me 24 jump on either side of your fences, because I can't. 25 If I do, I'll dishonour my dad, if I jump

1 on the other side, I'll dishonour my mother. I'm not 2 into that, you know. That -- that's my view and it's 3 still my view today. 4 Q: And as you indicated in this letter, 5 there were a number of -- our of nine (9) councillors, 6 seven (7) have had close ties to Stoney Point. Is that 7 correct? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And perhaps we could mark as the 10 next exhibit, it would be Exhibit 119, I believe -- 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-119, Your Honour. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- this letter to the 13 editor? 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. Oh, we 15 have a copy there, thank you. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT P-119: Document No. 1002054 Forest 18 Standard, Wed. Feb 09/94, 19 Page 02 Letter to the Editor 20 from Gerald George. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 23 Q: And in -- over the summer of 1994, 24 as part of your duties as a councillor, were there 25 discussions with Mr. Kobayashi and the Ministry of

1 Natural Resources about management of the -- joint 2 management of the Park, the Ipperwash Provincial Park or 3 the Pinery Park? 4 A: We were -- yeah, we -- the council 5 recognized that the Ipperwash Park was part of Stoney 6 Point. It was surrendered and we were thinking about 7 how we could gradually get that back. 8 So I talked with Liz last night. She was 9 a Band administrator and from what I can remember what - 10 - from -- she could remember, it was -- 11 Q: You tell us what you can remember. 12 A: Yeah, from what I can remember, it 13 was a -- we were going to try to get a co-management 14 deal with Ipperwash Park and possibly with the Pinery 15 Park. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: Because the Pinery Park is in 18 traditional territory too, but we're mostly concerned 19 with the Ipperwash Provincial Park and we're thinking 20 over time, it could gradually be turned over to us and - 21 - and then the First Nation would manage it. 22 Q: And the Ipperwash Provincial Park 23 was part of the reserve that was set up as a result of 24 the Treaty of 1827? 25 A: Yeah.

1 Q: And it formed part of the reserve 2 until the surrender of 1928? 3 A: Yeah, yes. 4 Q: And your concern was that the land 5 be returned to the Band because it was part of your 6 traditional land? 7 A: Yeah, since -- 8 Q: Part of the reserve land, actually. 9 A: Yeah, since we got the word that the 10 Army Base was going to be turned back over, we thought 11 we should get it up -- the whole thing back, as it was, 12 and that was one (1) of the ways of slowly getting it -- 13 we knew the -- it was under Provencal rule then. 14 It would be a lot different than 15 negotiating the frontage and the whole Base, because 16 that belonged to the Feds. And we recognized that the 17 Provincial Park was the province, so we thought if we 18 entered a co-management arrangement with them, that we 19 could gradually, over time, take it over. 20 That was the plan. We -- we worked real 21 close with Les -- Lesley Kobayashi, because one (1) of 22 my uncles, Gord Cloud, worked at the Pinery and he was 23 friends with him, so we had real good working 24 relationship with the Pinery staff and management. 25 Q: And did this -- I note that there's

1 some minutes at Tab 4 of -- Tab 3 of the book in front 2 of you of a council meeting on August the 2nd, 1994 and 3 at the bottom of page 1 and the top of page 2 and this 4 is Inquiry Document 1011116. 5 There's a reference on page 2 as part of 6 the draft management plan to a -- you wanted to make 7 sure there was something put in the plan allowing band 8 members to hunt -- hunt woods and gathering of herbs or 9 plants for medicinal use. Is that correct? 10 A: Yeah, wanted to make sure that we 11 could hunt in there -- in the Provincial Park and 12 possibly the Pinery and cut wood. 13 A lot of our old people like still to 14 collect herbs and medicines like Gladys Lundehn would 15 talk a lot at our meetings. She was a really Stoney 16 Pointer. She was born there and lived there and she 17 removed. 18 So that was one (1) of their concerns, if 19 they could go and get medicines. So I -- I was trying 20 to make sure that that was put into the -- into the 21 plan. And a lot of our guys like it's good fishing 22 right off of the reef at Ipperwash Provincial Park and 23 make sure we could maybe set nets off there fishing and 24 whatnot. 25 Q: And so that was -- you wanted that

1 part of the draft plan to permit hunting, fishing, 2 gathering of herbs at Ipperwash Provincial Park and at 3 Pinery? 4 A: Yeah. That was my portfolio on 5 Council so I took it up. 6 Q: And was a management plan -- 7 management plan entered into? 8 A: I think it only went to the draft 9 stage. 10 Q: Only to the draft stage? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Now in 1994, did you attend at the 13 Army Camp? 14 A: 1994, I think I was still going in 15 there. Just to ride around. 16 Q: And did you hunt in 1994? 17 A: Only at night. 18 Q: Only -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And what did you hunt when you were 21 hunting in 1994 in the Army Camp? 22 A: We'd go in there and hunt deer at 23 night. 24 Q: And did you hunt during -- in the 25 fall? Was it in the fall, or the spring, or summer, or

1 all year round? 2 A: In the fall we'd hunt deer, in the 3 fall. 4 Q: Pardon me? 5 A: Hunt deer in the fall. 6 Q: And did you hunt ducks in the fall 7 of 1994? 8 A: I can't really remember. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I might have, I'm not sure. 11 Q: So the hunting was that you did in 12 1994 was in the fall? 13 A: Yeah. We hunt in the fall. Well I 14 do anyway, you're not suppose to really shoot deer in 15 the summer, or the spring or -- 16 Q: So when you hunted, you hunted in 17 the fall during the hunting season? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Now in 1995, excuse me, before I 20 leave 1994, did you go back and live on the rifle ranges 21 in 1994? Did you stay overnight? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And did you Uncle Pete Cloud and 24 members of your family go back in 1994? 25 A: I'm not sure if Pete -- I think Pete

1 was going in and out of there. I'm not if he stayed 2 overnight though. 3 Q: And what about other members of your 4 extended family? 5 A: Yeah, they did. 6 Q: They did? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And did you go visit them? 9 A: Yeah, I rode by. 10 Q: But did you go onto the Army -- to 11 the area along Highway 21 to visit them? 12 A: I really can't remember. I probably 13 did. 14 Q: Okay. Now in 1995 the -- did you go 15 and visit the Army Camp, the camps along Highway 21 16 prior to July 29th, 1995? 17 A: The main Base? 18 Q: Yes. No, along the -- where the 19 occupiers were occupying the rifle ranges, did you visit 20 that in 1994/5 before the occupation of the barracks? 21 A: I really can't remember. I might 22 have went for a ride around the Base and out again. I 23 wouldn't stay long. 24 Q: And what you mean, you would go into 25 the Base, drive around the Base and then leave?

1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And how did you hear about the 3 occupation of the barracks at the Army Camp? 4 A: Through -- through some of the Band 5 members and through the media. 6 Q: Okay. And when did you hear about 7 it in relation to -- we've heard that the movement into 8 the built-up area, the barracks area of the Army Camp 9 was on July 29th, 1995, when did you hear about it? 10 A: Probably just a little while after 11 it was happening. 12 Q: And did you go down to the Army 13 Camp? 14 A: I went -- I went by and I saw a lot 15 of -- some trucks leaving the Base with air conditioners 16 and fridges and things and they were going toward -- I 17 just sat there for a while. They were going toward 18 London, the London area. 19 Q: And were they in military trucks 20 that you observed? 21 A: No. These were natives -- natives 22 driving trucks. I don't know who they were. They were 23 taking things off the Base. 24 Q: And when was that in relation to 25 July 29th?

1 A: The day -- I guess the day it 2 happened, late in the evening, something like that. 3 Q: And did you go on to the Army Camp 4 in July or early August? 5 A: I think it was early August, maybe. 6 I went -- I was going to go inside the Base and see how 7 much non band -- band members were in the Base, because 8 I heard a -- a lot of them that were in there were not 9 from our -- Kettle or Stoney Point. I didn't get far in 10 the Base; I -- I got in there a little ways and I was 11 told to leave. 12 Q: And you were told by one (1) of the 13 people who were at the Base to leave? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And was that one (1) of the members 16 of the Kettle and Stony Point Band -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- who told you to leave? 19 A: Yes, it was. 20 Q: And -- so you left? 21 A: Yeah, I left. Well, she was riding 22 right beside me yelling me at the top of her lungs, so I 23 thought I might as well leave. 24 Q: Okay. And was -- what was the 25 response of the Council of the Kettle and Stony Point

1 First Nation to the occupation of the barracks by the 2 individuals who did that on July 29th? Did you have a 3 meeting? 4 A: A lot of the older -- older people 5 wanted to have a meeting -- 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: -- and some of the Council were kind 8 of worried that it was getting kind of out of hand. 9 They were kind of concerned that the Army would just 10 walk out of there without notifying what they were going 11 to do first. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: My concern was with non-Band 14 members -- 15 Q: And why -- 16 A: -- being in there. I was getting 17 told by some of the old people that some of these non- 18 Band members in there were starting to get really 19 radical and a lot of our young people were starting to 20 listen to them. It changed from when I was there. 21 When -- when we stayed there, we weren't 22 like that. We were told, Don't be pushing, don't be -- 23 don't -- don't be violent or anything and I was afraid 24 it was starting to turn that way with these other people 25 coming in from other First Nations with their beliefs.

1 Q: But isn't it a fact, Mr. George, 2 that people from different First Nations will visit 3 other First Nations to give them support and that that 4 was happening here? 5 A: Yeah. Well, that happened -- that 6 happened at our road block. People would come there, 7 sure, but then -- then they'd leave. You know, they -- 8 they don't set up and stay; they leave and -- and you 9 don't go there. 10 You should -- when you go to a First 11 Nation, you go to the leadership of that First Nation 12 and ask what the issues are, then you start helping. 13 You just don't go in and start filling other peoples' 14 heads with things, saying, Oh, yeah, we agree with you. 15 You should be separate, you know, and 16 elected officials, you know, they -- they don't stand 17 for nothing because they're Indian Affairs and that's 18 basically -- basically what was going on. 19 Q: So, part of your concern was that 20 there was -- the people who were from outside the First 21 Nation from other First Nations who were there were 22 supporting what you called the separatist movement? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And -- so that was your real 25 concern?

1 A: Yes, that was my concern. Plus the 2 young people were getting the -- the wrong ideas in 3 their heads. 4 Q: And your -- when you say, "The wrong 5 ideas," I take it that as an Anishnaabek person, you are 6 part of the Three Feathers Confederacy? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: Three Fires. 10 Q: Three Fires -- excuse me -- 11 Confederacy and your concern was that some of these 12 people were from other -- not from the Three -- Three 13 Fires Confederacy? 14 A: Yes, I was. Some of them were from 15 the -- from the States and some of them were from the 16 Oneida First Nation. 17 Q: And -- and those First Nations were 18 not part of the Three (3) Fires Confederacy? 19 A: No. 20 Q: And on August the 1st, I understand 21 there was a meeting of -- at the Kettle and Stony Point 22 First Nation? 23 A: Yes, there was, in the evening. 24 Q: And was that meeting called in 25 response to the occupation of the barracks on July 29th?

1 A: Because of that and basically the 2 way it was starting to unfold for the last couple of 3 months. And the non-Band members there was also an 4 issue with some of our Elders. 5 Q: Elders who were from Stoney Point 6 originally, and who -- 7 A: Yeah, were born there. Real Stoney 8 Pointers. 9 Q: And who were -- wanted to move back 10 or had moved back into the barracks? 11 A: Yeah, they wanted to move back but a 12 lot of them moved -- moved out of there. One person 13 that talked to me a lot was Angeline Shawkence, but 14 she's -- she passed away and another one was Gladys 15 Lundehn. She's also passed away. 16 Gladys Lundehn was a real Stoney Pointer, 17 because she was born and lived there and she was moved 18 out and she always had concerns every time. She used to 19 come and see me and she'd say, this person asked me to 20 leave from the beach down there today and I don't even 21 know who he was. 22 And that really got me angry that Gladys 23 Lundehn could not even go and enjoy the Stoney Point 24 beach without some -- some other native from -- who has 25 nothing to do with Kettle and Stony Point come up to her

1 and say, you're not allowed here. 2 Q: And -- 3 A: That -- that -- that kind of thing 4 really -- really got me angry. 5 Q: And 1995, or 1990 -- did Ms. Lundehn 6 tell you when this took place? 7 A: She didn't tell me the date, but she 8 told me it was on the beach at Stoney Point before -- it 9 must have been before the meeting. 10 Q: So that would have been in 1995 or 11 1994? 12 A: 1995. Could have been any time in 13 the summer there. She didn't give me the date. 14 Q: And how old was she at that point in 15 1995? 16 A: Jeez, late 60's maybe. 17 Q: And Angeline Shawkence? 18 A: Angie was probably about the same 19 age, I guess. I think Angie -- I think Angie's parents 20 just owned land at Stoney Point. I think Angeline grew 21 up on Kettle Point. 22 Q: Pardon me? 23 A: I think Angie grew up on Kettle 24 Point, but her -- I think some of her family had -- had 25 land down Stoney Point.

1 Q: And had either Ms. Shawkence or Ms. 2 Lundehn, had they moved onto the Army Camp during the -- 3 the occupation of the rifle ranges, do you know? 4 A: I think Gladys was there. Some of 5 her family was there. I can't remember all the camp -- 6 who belonged to all the campgrounds. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: But I remember some of her extended 9 family had campgrounds. Hubert George and Londen she'd 10 go visit them a lot. 11 Q: And the meeting that took place on 12 August the 1st, if you turn to Tab 4 of that book in 13 front of you there's a copy of some minutes and those 14 minutes were marked as Exhibit P-43 already and it's 15 Inquiry Document Number 3000374. 16 And the councillors that were present on 17 August the 1st, 1995 are listed under the heading "Chief 18 and Council present"? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you're noted as being present? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And can you tell me, in your letter 23 to the editor that was marked as Exhibit P-119, you 24 indicated there were seven (7) councillors who had close 25 ties with -- back in 1990 --

1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: -- with Stoney Point? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And can you tell me, looking at the 5 list, which of the Councillors that are listed had ties 6 to Stoney Point. 7 Firstly, starting with Chief Tom 8 Bressette, did he? 9 A: From what I see, I really -- 10 everyone has ties to Stoney Point on this list. 11 Q: Everyone did? 12 A: Basically. I don't see how you can 13 really separate the two (2). 14 Q: Well, when you referred to in your 15 letter of -- to the editor in February of 1994 of the 16 people, seven (7) of the Council had close ties to 17 Stoney Point, what did you mean by that? 18 A: That they -- they had roots at 19 Stoney Point, just like -- just like I did. Like Tom 20 Bressette, Bob Bressette, Norman Shawnoo's family owned 21 land; Bonni Bressette; I think Bud George; I think Al 22 Bressette. I think Steve Wolfe, in a way, Liz 23 Thunder's, the Band Administrator, her father was born 24 at Stoney Point. 25 Q: So that -- and like you, they had

1 relatives who lived in and had other parents or 2 grandparents who had lived on Stoney Point. Is that -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And Yvonne Bressette is Bonni 5 Bressette? She's known as Bonni Bressette? 6 A: Yeah. Yeah, that's her, Bonni 7 Bressette. 8 Q: And at that meeting I understand 9 that a number of people spoke and you spoke as well; is 10 that correct? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: And your concern is on -- you 13 express your concern on pages 18 and 19? At the bottom 14 of eighteen (18) and the top of page 19? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And your concern was -- what was 17 your concern at the time when you spoke at the meeting 18 of August the 1st? 19 A: My concern was mostly the non-Band 20 members that were there. 21 Q: And that concern is reflected on the 22 top of Page 19. You're concerned that -- that you were 23 Anishnaabe and some of the people in there were 24 Iroquois? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And the Iroquois Nation was not part 2 of the Three Fires Confederacy? 3 A: No, they weren't. 4 Q: And the flag that was flying, you 5 felt, was an Iroquois flag and not an Anishnaabek flag? 6 A: Yeah, it's a Mohawk warrior flag. 7 Q: And you objected to that? 8 A: Yes, I objected to that. 9 Q: And the -- after the meeting of 10 August the 1st, and as part of -- actually before I 11 leave that -- as part of the meeting of August the 1st, 12 there were discussions about a statement of principles 13 for negotiations and that related to the negotiations 14 with the Federal Government for the Army Camp? Is that 15 correct? 16 A: Yes, I believe so. 17 Q: And the -- after this meeting there 18 was a decision made by Council to deliver a letter to 19 Stoney Point -- to the people living at Stoney Point? 20 And I'm referring to Exhibit P-30, which, if I could 21 just see it, Mr. Registrar, for a moment... 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: If you just take a moment, Mr.

1 George, and take a look at Exhibit P-30 and... 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And it's Inquiry Document Number 6 2001697. And what was the purpose, as you recall it, of 7 this letter Exhibit P-30, Mr. George? 8 A: The purpose was to -- was to mostly 9 see if the non-Band members there would leave. 10 Q: The non-members -- Band members 11 leave? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And did you participate in 14 delivering this letter? 15 A: Yeah. Most of the council went down 16 there with the chief. 17 Q: And when did you go down -- on 18 August 3rd or the next day August 4th, do you recall? 19 A: I think it was the next day, I'm not 20 sure. 21 Q: Yes. And what did you do? Did you 22 take a number of these letters? 23 A: We took maybe about hundred and 24 fifty (150) to two hundred (200), a stack about maybe 25 about that thick.

1 Q: And you -- you're indicating a stack 2 of about two (2) inches? 3 A: Yeah. About that. 4 Q: And what did -- what happened? Tell 5 us what happened. 6 A: We went to the front gate and the 7 chief was asking to see whoever was in charge. Nobody 8 would come to the gate. And I saw this one (1) non-Band 9 member, Russ Jewel was standing in the background just 10 looking at us. 11 And one of the older people come up and 12 asked us what we wanted and we tried to give the 13 letters, and she -- she didn't want any. 14 Q: And so did you leave the letters? 15 A: Yeah we left them on the gatehouse, 16 on the step. 17 Q: And what happened with the letters? 18 A: As we were pulling away, one (1) of 19 the young people grabbed -- grabbed the stack of letters 20 and threw them in the back of Al Bressette's truck as 21 they were pulling away. 22 Q: And were some of the letters left or 23 do you know if they -- 24 A: I'm not sure. I just saw him grab 25 the stack and throw them in the back of Al's truck.

1 Q: And I understand as well in August - 2 - early August of 1995, you spoke to the London Free 3 Press? 4 A: Yeah, I must have. 5 Q: And at Tab 5 of the book in front of 6 you there's a reference to -- there's an article from 7 the London Free Press dated August 3, 1995, it's Inquiry 8 Document Number 2001978. And do you see that Mr. 9 George? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And the -- there's a reference to 12 you at the bottom in the first column towards the bottom 13 of the first column, about a Kettle and Stony Point Band 14 Councillor who was among Natives who moved onto the land 15 in May 1993 but left four (4) months later when the 16 repossession, quote, 17 "started taking a bad [I take it was] 18 turn", close quote. "Said Natives at 19 the Army Camp do have weapons." 20 And what were you referring to when you 21 said -- when you're referring to weapons? 22 A: I said they have guns. 23 Q: They had guns? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And what were you referring to when

1 you said they had guns? 2 A: I said they had guns because 3 everybody hunts in there. 4 Q: Because they were hunters? 5 A: Everyone hunts in there, it's what I 6 said. 7 Q: And so that when you spoke to the 8 reporter, you told the reporter that people were hunters 9 and so they had guns because they were hunters? 10 A: Yeah, but they usually don't put 11 that in there. They use other terms, weapons, assault 12 rifles. When you have -- when you say guns, they like 13 changing the words. 14 Q: So you -- but -- so when you spoke 15 to the reporter you said that because these people were 16 hunters, they had guns and -- 17 A: I said people hunt there in the fall 18 all the time. They hunt deer, they have guns. There's 19 guns on the Army -- Army Base. That's what I said and 20 it turned out to be weapons -- not weapons, guns. 21 Q: So the quote where it says "weapons" 22 is -- well, it's not -- did you say 23 "there were weapons down there, I'm not 24 fooled by them"? 25 A: I said they have guns down there. I

1 don't know if I said that I'm not fooled by them. They 2 have -- there's guns down there. 3 Q: And your concern again is expressed 4 that because of the non-Band members that were there? 5 A: Yes, they were -- the non-Band 6 members were -- were starting to -- our young people 7 were starting to listen more and more to them. One (1) 8 of the main ones I was concerned about was an individual 9 named Les Jewels. I'm not sure where he was from but 10 what I was hearing, he had a large influence down there. 11 Q: Did you know Les Jewel? 12 A: No, I didn't. I met him once on 13 Kettle Point, maybe in '91, '92. And he was -- I think 14 he was visiting with Bernard George at Bernard's cabinet 15 shop and from what I can remember, he wasn't making much 16 sense -- 17 Q: And -- 18 A: -- when he was talking to Bernard. 19 Q: But you don't know which First 20 Nation Mr. Jewel was from? 21 A: I think he was from the States. 22 Q: Okay. And perhaps we could mark as 23 the next exhibit would be P-120, this extract from the 24 London Free Press? 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-120, your Honour.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, thank 2 you. 3 4 --- EXHIBIT NO P-120: Document No. 2001978, London 5 Free Press, Section A, Aug 6 03/95 "Ipperwash Takeover" 7 Reference to Gerald George. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Now in the -- after August the 3rd, 11 what did you do as a councillor in relation to -- in 12 relation to the Army Camp? 13 Did you attempt to visit the Army Camp 14 again? Did you -- 15 A: No. No. 16 Q: Okay. And when you're referring to 17 guns on the Army Camp, the guns that were used for 18 hunting, what kind of guns were you aware of that 19 members of the -- members of your First Nation had on 20 the Army Camp? 21 What type of guns? 22 A: Mostly deer hunting rifles, .22s and 23 a shot gun. 24 Q: And were you aware of any semi- 25 automatic rifles?

1 A: I heard one (1) of the guys had a 2 SKS. Just a semi-automatic Chinese. 3 Q: And a SKS -- Chinese SKS, can you 4 tell us a little bit more about what kind of rifle that 5 is? 6 A: It's just a -- I call them a junk 7 gun. They're not really worth anything. They're -- 8 they're -- the manufactured by Norinco 7.6 2x39, it's a 9 short Russian, 308 semi-automatic. You feed it by 10 stripper clip as a fixed ten (10) round mag, but you 11 can't pull the mag off the -- off the body, but it drops 12 down to be cleaned. 13 Q: So it would drop down once the 14 clip's done, it has to be reloaded manually? 15 A: Yeah, you -- you got through the 16 top. 17 Q: Oh, I see. And was -- is this a 18 rifle that's used for hunting? 19 A: When we had a deer cull in 1998, our 20 first deer cull, one (1) of the guys -- that's the only 21 kind of gun he had, so I allowed him to use it. He was 22 from Kettle Point. 23 Q: And that was -- the deer cull you're 24 referring to is the deer cull at Pinery Park? 25 A: Yeah.

1 Q: And so the -- that gentleman from 2 Kettle Point used that rifle -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- for -- 5 A: No, it's good round for a short 6 range under a hundred (100) yards, because you can get a 7 quick follow up shot, because it's a semi-automatic. 8 It's a good round for deer, like 308, short. 9 Q: Okay. And so there was -- you were 10 aware of one of these SKS semi-automatic rifles that 11 there were shotguns and .22s that members used for 12 hunting? 13 A: Yeah, the SKS was hearsay. I heard 14 that through one (1) of my cousins. 15 Q: But those are the guns that you are 16 -- the types of guns that you are -- the guns you were 17 talking about when you spoke to the reporter? 18 A: Yeah, hunting rifles and stuff, 19 because I told them I hunted myself and then when I was 20 there. 21 Q: Pardon me? You told her that you 22 hunted when you were in there, too? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Now if I could take you to Tab 6 of 25 the book in front of you and this is Exhibit 73. It's a

1 letter to the editor that was published in the Forest 2 Standard on August the 30th, 1995. If you just take a 3 moment and look at that. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: And for the benefit of My Friends, I 8 don't think this -- this is not part of the database, 9 but it -- we handed it out before and we handed extra 10 copies out yesterday, so it was among the -- the 11 material we handed out yesterday. 12 And the -- you're responding, I see, in 13 this Exhibit 73 to an article in the -- in the Forest 14 Standard. Is that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I note that on this copy it says 17 that it was published on Wednesday, August the 30th. 18 Can you tell me, is the Forest Standard 19 normally published on a Wednesday? Or was it back in 20 1995? 21 A: I think it was Monday. You had to 22 have them in there the Monday before the Wednesday. 23 Q: So that it was published on 24 Wednesday -- 25 A: Yeah.

1 Q: -- and letters to the editor had to 2 be in by the Monday before the Wednesday? 3 A: Yeah, from what I can remember. 4 Q: And why did you write this letter? 5 A: I wrote that letter because we had 6 reports coming in that some of the campers were being 7 harassed when they were on the -- the beach of the Army 8 Camp and when they were camping inside the Ipperwash 9 Provincial Park. 10 Q: And why was that of concern to you? 11 A: It was starting to affect the Band 12 membership as a whole from the actions of a few. A lot 13 of trouble was happening at the high school in Forest 14 between our kids and the non-native kids. 15 As this went along and after -- after 16 these reports were coming out, it started getting worse 17 at the highschool for our kids out there. And I was 18 getting quite angry because even some of my friends in 19 Forest, they stopped talking to me and I was feeling 20 that from the actions of a few, it was reflecting on the 21 Band membership as a whole. 22 And again, Council did not want to put 23 anything in the paper to say we didn't -- we weren't 24 supporting this kind of action, that we were -- I think 25 a lot of people in a certain area thought Kettle and

1 Stony Point Band Council was supporting this action. 2 Q: And when you say, "this action," it 3 was -- this is before the occupation of the Provincial 4 Park. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: But the action of -- of member -- 7 people at Stoney -- at the Army Camp asking non- 8 aboriginal people to leave the beach in front of the -- 9 be in front of the Army Camp? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And when you say that the relations 12 with the community were being adversely affected and the 13 children in high school, in August of 1995 it's -- isn't 14 it fair to say that the children would not have been at 15 high school, so you're referring to a period of time 16 before that? 17 A: Before that, in the winter. Well, 18 the kids would still be our friends, you know, and they 19 work and I was concerned that no one would hire them. 20 Just the affect and then there was another movement 21 starting in the Ipperwash area amongst the non-native 22 cottagers. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: Reform party type things. You can - 25 - they'd have meetings here and there and it just wasn't

1 helping. 2 Q: So, you were concerned about the 3 affect on your -- the wider community of your First 4 Nation, the affect on them and -- and with respect to 5 the relationship with other members of the community -- 6 the non-aboriginal members as a community? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And were you aware that there was, 9 as you put it, reform-type policies being talked about 10 by non-aboriginal people? 11 A: They were starting to -- we were all 12 concerned about the Reform Party or whatever they want 13 to call themselves back then because they -- they were 14 already starting to get people ready for the provincial 15 election in '94; things like that. 16 They wanted to get the -- voted into 17 power, eh? But the next thing got voted in, I guess -- 18 Harris' government. But anyway, that's basically -- I 19 was really angry that, you know, we were being reflected 20 on -- like, we were all doing that. 21 Q: And that's why you wrote this 22 letter? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you used very strong language in 25 this letter, you would agree with me?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you would agree with me that 3 people that you were writing this letter about would not 4 be happy about the letter? 5 A: Probably not. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: If I -- if I went back, I would have 8 just -- I shouldn't have said all the Band -- all the 9 people who lived at the Base, I should have said just 10 the people who were partaking in this action. 11 Q: And in this action you were 12 referring to people who were -- you had heard, harassing 13 people on the Stoney Point Beach? 14 A: And on the -- and in the Park. 15 Q: And in the Park? 16 A: We were getting reports from Les 17 Kobayashi to tell what was happening. 18 Q: And you were getting reports from 19 Mr. Kobayashi that -- that members of the First Nation 20 were -- were approaching people in the Park? 21 A: Yeah, on the outer edge of the Park. 22 Q: And when you say the outer edge of 23 the park, if I could just throw up -- 24 A: The fenced area. 25 Q: And the area that you're referring

1 to, we've got a copy of Exhibit P-40 on the screen, 2 along Matheson Drive as it turns north to the Lake 3 Huron; is that what you're referring to? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And how many reports did you receive 6 from Mr. Kobayashi about that? 7 A: I can't remember. 8 Q: Was it a large number or a few? 9 A: No. It was mostly coming through -- 10 through -- he talked to my uncle and Liz would hear it 11 and -- 12 Q: When you say your uncle, your uncle 13 was who? 14 A: Gordon. Gord Cloud. 15 Q: Gord Cloud? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And Liz is Liz Thunder, the Band 18 Administrator? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Did you speak directly to Mr. 21 Kobayashi about these -- these concerns? 22 A: No. We left that to Tom. Tom went 23 to speak to him. 24 Q: And Tom is Tom Bressette? 25 A: Yeah, the chief.

1 Q: And prior to the occupation of the 2 Park on September 4th, 1995, had you heard anything 3 about the Park and the intention of people to occupy the 4 Park? 5 A: Just hearsay. 6 Q: And when you say just hearsay, what 7 are you -- you referring to? You heard -- people told 8 you that they had heard that -- 9 A: They were -- they were thinking 10 about the Park. I didn't know what -- they were going 11 go in and take it over, just that some people were 12 talking about the Ipperwash Park. 13 Q: And this was before September 4th? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And was there anything -- did you 16 hear anything specific about people going into -- into 17 the Provincial Park? 18 A: No. Not really, to give a good clue 19 that they were going to. 20 Q: Pardon me? 21 A: Not to give a really good clue that 22 they were going to. 23 Q: And did you have any indication or 24 any feeling from what you had been told as to when this 25 might happen?

1 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: But the best time to do it would be 4 after campers leave. 5 Q: And that's at the end of the Labour 6 Day weekend? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And is that what you anticipated? 9 A: Yes. I thought if anything was 10 going to happen, like I just thought maybe they'd go and 11 set up a couple of tents and stay there like they did in 12 '93. 13 Q: Like they did in '93 -- 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: -- when they moved onto the rifle 16 ranges? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And that's what you anticipated? 19 A: That's what I thought was going to 20 happen, yeah. 21 Q: And how did you learn of the 22 occupation? 23 A: Band members, then some of the 24 media. 25 Q: And did you learn on September 4th?

1 A: Basically when it was happening. A 2 little while after that kind of learned about it. 3 Q: And when did you first go down to 4 the Park? 5 A: I was probably just riding around 6 there maybe about a little while after. Maybe the next 7 day. 8 Q: On September 5th? 9 A: Yeah. I started going by there. 10 Q: And when you say you started to go 11 down there, what do you mean by that? You -- 12 A: Just for a ride. 13 Q: But would you -- 14 A: On East Parkway up Army Camp Road, 15 down 21 to Outer Drive and back again. 16 Q: So, that you did not go into the 17 Park or into the Army Camp? 18 A: I -- I don't think I was allowed in 19 there at the time. 20 Q: But -- so you drove, you would dri - 21 - on September 5th you'd drive down along East Parkway 22 Drive, on Army Camp Road on Highway 21 and down Outer 23 Drive as well? 24 A: Yeah. And Bernard was with me a 25 couple of times; he went in his blue truck. And I think

1 on a -- middle afternoon of the -- the 5th, we were just 2 coming back twenty-one (21), almost to Outer Drive when 3 we were stopped. 4 Q: And you were stopped by who? 5 A: The police. 6 Q: And why did they -- whereabouts did 7 they stop you, Mr. George? 8 A: In about a half a kilometre north of 9 Outer Drive on twenty-one (21). 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: So on Exhibit P-40, what Outer Drive 14 is, just at the boundary on the eastern boundary of -- 15 and so that you were stopped a half mile east of Outer 16 Drive on Highway 21? 17 A: Yeah, about there. 18 Q: Half a kilometre. My Friend, Mr. 19 Ross, says that I'm -- 20 A: Well, I -- 21 Q: -- showing my age. 22 A: I said about -- maybe three quarter 23 kilometre, kilometre. She said half a mile, so -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- around that area.

1 Q: So, it was three quarters (3/4) of a 2 kilometre east of Outer Drive that you were stopped? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And how many police officers stopped 5 you? 6 A: I think there were two (2) cars, 7 about four (4) police and they -- and they made us get 8 out of the truck and they were searching the truck. 9 Q: And did they say anything to do? 10 A: Not really. Just asked us what we 11 were doing. Bernard said we were riding on the road. 12 They said where are you going? He said we're going 13 home. 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: They just searched the truck. 16 Q: But they searched the truck? 17 A: Yeah, and checked the licence and 18 our ID and everything. 19 Q: And when you say they searched the 20 truck, did they go inside the cab of the truck? 21 A: Yeah. They tilted the seat forward 22 and they were looking under the seats and everything. 23 Q: And this was a half-ton truck? 24 A: Yeah, a Chevy -- blue Chev, a 25 Wrangler.

1 Q: And did they look in the trunk? 2 A: Trunk? 3 Q: I mean, not in the trunk, but in 4 the -- 5 A: The box? 6 Q: In the box? 7 A: Yeah, they were looking all over the 8 truck. And they even lifted the hood up if I can 9 remember correctly. 10 Q: The hood? 11 A: Yeah, I think they lifted the hood 12 up. 13 Q: And how long were you stopped by the 14 police officers? 15 A: Probably about fifteen (15) minutes, 16 something like that. 17 Q: And were they stopping other cars 18 that you observed? 19 A: Non-natives kept riding by. They 20 just stopped us. 21 Q: So, that you non-aboriginal people 22 drive by and were not stopped but did you see any 23 aboriginal people drive by when you were being stopped? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And after you left, after you were

1 stopped, can you -- what time of day do you recall; was 2 it morning, afternoon of September 5th? 3 A: The sun was maybe just a foot above 4 the horizon. Maybe about 4:30. 5 Q: Okay. And were you in Forest on 6 September 5th? 7 A: I went for a ride to Forest a couple 8 times. 9 Q: And did you -- do you recall if it 10 was on the 5th or the 6th did you -- I know it's a long 11 time ago -- 12 A: The 5th and 6th I was in the Forest 13 and back again. 14 Q: And what did you observe in Forest? 15 A: On the 5th there was a -- some 16 police cars at the OPP station. 17 Q: And that's the OPP station that's 18 just south of the intersection of twenty-one (21), as -- 19 King Street really, in Forest, along Townsend? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: On the 5th, I start seeing more 23 cruisers and they were -- most of the time they weren't 24 by themselves, there were usually two (2) or three (3) 25 cruisers riding around together; around -- down around

1 Kettle Point and then around down to Stoney Point area. 2 Q: And when you were in Forest, did you 3 observe anything different about the Detachment at the - 4 - the Forest Detachment? 5 A: There seemed to be a lot of cruisers 6 there. 7 Q: And was there a trailer there on 8 September the 5th? 9 A: they have their white trailer. 10 Q: Pardon me? 11 A: A white trailer, if I can remember 12 correctly. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: But there's a lot of cruisers going 15 in and out of Forest, down toward the -- the Army Camp 16 way. 17 Q: More cruisers than normal? 18 A: Yeah, yeah. 19 Q: And on September 6th, were you in 20 Forest? 21 A: Yes, I was in Forest several times. 22 I came to the grocery store here, I remember, and I went 23 for a ride around again. 24 Q: And did -- what did you observe with 25 respect to the Ontario Provincial Police in Forest on

1 the 6th? 2 A: More police. 3 Q: And were there -- can you tell us 4 where you observed the police? 5 A: Around the police station in town, 6 going in and out of the twenty-one (21) and the curve 7 and there was -- I saw a couple, actually, back by the 8 ball diamond here. 9 Q: And -- and when you say, back by the 10 ball diamond here, you're talking about Kimball Hall in 11 Forest -- the parking lot that's just to -- out -- 12 outside Kimball Hall and there is a ball diamond at the 13 east end of the parking lot? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you observed police cars there? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Can you recall how many? 18 A: I think two (2). I'm not sure if 19 there was another one behind them. 20 Q: Okay. And on September 6th were you 21 stopped by any police officers? 22 A: I -- no. 23 Q: No? 24 A: Just at the -- just at the 25 roadblocks when I'd go for -- when I went up Army Camp

1 Road and down to East Parkway. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: They were stopping check. 4 Q: Okay. We'll get to that in a 5 moment. When you -- on September 6th, when did you go 6 down to -- I take it from what you've just told me that 7 you did go down to the area around the Army Camp and the 8 Park. Can you tell me what time of day it was? 9 A: It was all times of the day, I was 10 going back and forth there. I was going there -- I 11 started there in, maybe about the afternoon -- 12 Q: The afternoon? 13 A: -- after three o'clock. 14 Q: After three o'clock? 15 A: Yeah, it was after three o'clock. 16 Q: And why were you going -- you had 17 been down by the Army Camp and the Park on September 5th 18 and why did you go back there on September 6th? 19 A: Just to see how much police were in 20 the area. 21 Q: Just to see how many police were in 22 the area? 23 A: To see if I could see what kind of 24 guns they had. 25 Q: And so your principle purpose was to

1 observe the police officers? 2 A: Yeah, just to get information. 3 Q: And on the 6th, was -- on the 5th 4 you went for at least one (1) ride with Mr. Cecil 5 Bernard George, on the 6th was Mr. Cecil Bernard George 6 with you? 7 A: No. Just -- just on the 5th when we 8 got pulled over. 9 Q: Just on the 5th? And you say that 10 when you can recall on September 6th when you went down 11 after three o'clock, you say that you were stopped by -- 12 at checkpoints? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And -- 15 A: Checkpoints on Army Camp Road. 16 Q: And on Army Camp Road -- as I 17 understand it, there are two (2) campgrounds or trailer 18 parks along Army Camp Road. There's one (1) called the 19 Silver Birches Campground and another one that doesn't 20 have a name, but it's closer to the Matheson Drive -- 21 it's on the west side of Army Camp Road. 22 Can you tell me in relation to Matheson 23 Drive or those two (2) campgrounds where the checkpoint 24 was that stopped you on September 6th? 25 A: I think it was right around the

1 entrance to the -- to the second campground. 2 Q: And that's the -- the campground 3 that's closer to Matheson Drive? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And that would be -- 6 A: Right around there somewhere. 7 Q: So, you're pointing to an area on 8 Exhibit P-40 that is just south of Matheson Drive and -- 9 perhaps what I'll ask you to do is, on -- there's a map 10 in front of you, Mr. George. 11 If you could mark -- I'm going to ask you 12 to mark a couple of things. If -- we're going to mark 13 this -- I'm going to stop for a moment and back up. 14 Could you mark on the map where your uncle's camp was 15 back in 1993 -- 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: -- on the map in front of you? 18 There's a red pen there or a blue pen, it doesn't 19 matter. Could you just mark the area on -- and we'll 20 mark this map as the next exhibit, Commissioner. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-121. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 121. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-121. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-121: Document No. 1002409 Page 13

66
  1                             Map of Ipperwash Military
  2                             Reserve Marked by Witness Mr.
  3                             Gerald George Jan 13/05
  4  
  5  CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR:   
  6                 Q:   Could you put the number 1 beside
  7  that, Mr. George?
  8                 A:   (INDICATING)
  9                 Q:   And, then, could you mark on Exhibit
 10  121 the -- where the checkpoint was that you were
 11  stopped at on September 6th?  The approximate location. 
 12  And could you put a number 2 beside that?
 13                 A:   (INDICATING)
 14                 Q:   And, you've marked the number 2 in
 15  the area close to where the cursor is on this copy of
 16  Exhibit 121 and how many police officers were at this
 17  checkpoint, Mr. George?
 18                 A:   Maybe four (4).
 19                 Q:   And, what happened?
 20                 A:   They just stopped and they wanted to
 21  look in the trunk, so I let them look in the trunk. 
 22  Just popped the trunk.  I didn't have to get out of the
 23  car.
 24                 Q:   And, did they --
 25                 A:   They checked my ID and let me go.

1 Q: And did you tell them that you were 2 a Band councillor? 3 A: I can't remember. 4 Q: And, what did -- what did they say 5 to you? Did they tell you why they were stopping you? 6 A: They just wanted to search the car. 7 They didn't say what for. 8 Q: And while you were there, did you 9 observe other cars go by the checkpoint? 10 A: I can't really remember. 11 Q: Okay. And were you stopped -- so, 12 after you were stopped at this checkpoint, you drove 13 north up by the Provincial Park and then west on East 14 Parkway Drive, is that correct? 15 A: No, at that time I was coming from 16 East Parkway Drive going up Army Camp Road to 21. 17 Q: So you were stopped on your way, you 18 had been by the Park and you were going towards Highway 19 21? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And were you stopped at that point 22 by -- at any checkpoint on East Parkway Drive? 23 A: I really can't remember, but I 24 remember seeing a couple of cruisers down there. 25 Q: And, can you tell the Commissioner

1 where the cruisers were? Were they -- we know there's a 2 Ministry of Natural Resources Parking lot on East 3 Parkway Drive. Was -- was that where they parked? 4 A: Yeah, they -- they were just on the 5 edge of that -- the parking lot. 6 Q: And that's located on the south side 7 of East Parkway Drive? 8 A: Yeah, on the south side of the road. 9 Q: And, so after you made the 10 observations that you did, with respect to the police 11 officers on the afternoon of September 6th, did you 12 return to Kettle Point? 13 A: Yeah, I went back to Kettle Point. 14 Q: And did you have any discussions 15 with anyone at Kettle Point? Did you report what you 16 had seen? 17 A: I think I told Bernard that I seen 18 more and more cops that day. 19 Q: Yeah. And Bernard, you're talking 20 about your cousin, Cecil Bernard George? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: Yes. And did you speak to the -- to 23 Chief Tom Bressette about the -- that you'd seen more 24 police? 25 A: Yeah, I told him that I'd seen more

1 and more cops down there. 2 Q: And the -- what, if anything, did 3 the Chief Tom Bressette, say about that? 4 A: I really can't remember. I just 5 told him, I'd go for another ride later and take another 6 look and see what's going on. 7 Q: And, why did you want to know what 8 was going on? What -- what were you concerned about? 9 A: I thought it was starting to get out 10 of hand, because all the police were -- there was more 11 and more police coming into the area and I kind of 12 thought they don't do that unless you're going to do 13 something. 14 And the guys in the Army Base were riding 15 up and down the road real fast and a lot of cars. It 16 seemed like there was a lot of people in the Park. 17 Q: So when you were there in the 18 afternoon of the 6th, you observed people in the Park 19 and you observed people driving up and down Army Camp 20 Road on the road that's just on the inside of the Army 21 Camp? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And, what else did you observe in 24 the afternoon either at the Army Camp, as you drove 25 along Army Camp Road, or in the Park?

1 A: We got stopped -- we got stopped at 2 that checkpoint again and some of the guys went by in a 3 dump truck, some of them were yelling and it was kind of 4 odd. I saw some of the police were yelling things back 5 and I kind of thought that was odd because officers 6 ain't suppose to respond to that kind of thing. 7 Q: So that this was the time you were 8 stopped at the checkpoint in the afternoon of September 9 6th? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: So that people, on the inside of the 12 Army Camp, were yelling at the police and the police 13 were yelling back? 14 A: A couple of the police, yeah. Not 15 the ones at the checkpoint. But there was some other 16 police standing near the road. About maybe a hundred 17 (100) metres in front of the checkpoint. 18 Q: And when you say in front, they were 19 -- were they north or south of -- 20 A: Toward Highway 21. 21 Q: Towards Highway 21. So they were 22 south of the checkpoint? 23 A: Yeah. I kind of thought it was 24 coming apart. If the -- if the police were starting to 25 lose their cool like that -- because what I was -- from

1 my experience with police, you're not really suppose to 2 respond to that kind of thing. And these guys were like 3 doing that. 4 Q: So that the -- the occupiers, the 5 people on the inside of the Army Camp, you observed, 6 heard shouting -- I take it insults at the police 7 officers? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And, the police officers shouted 10 insults back? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And that concerned you? 13 A: Yes it did. 14 Q: For the reason that you said that 15 police officers are not supposed to respond like that? 16 A: From my experience, no they're not 17 supposed to. 18 Q: And, that was a concern that -- and 19 why would having police officers act in that way -- why 20 was that of a concern? Other than perhaps being 21 unprofessional? 22 A: I felt that maybe they were -- they 23 were stationed at that checkpoint too long. Maybe it 24 was getting to them. They should have been replaced 25 with a fresh batch of police to take over that, if their

1 nerves were getting that bad. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: Things like that. 4 Q: And, you went back later in the 5 afternoon to the Provincial Park and the area of the 6 Army Camp, is that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And the -- can you tell us what time 9 of day approximately it was -- it was that this 10 occurred, late afternoon, early evening? 11 A: Late afternoon -- well after I left 12 here I went to see Bernard again. 13 Q: Okay that was -- after the first 14 time you were there -- 15 A: After the second time I went to go 16 see Bernard again. 17 Q: Okay. Then this is my fault, not 18 your fault. But the first time you went in the 19 afternoon of September 6th, you were stopped at the 20 checkpoint by the -- close to the trailer park or 21 campground that's closest to Matheson Drive, is that 22 correct? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And then, after you stopped -- were 25 stopped there you went back to Kettle Point. You spoke

1 to -- I thought you told me to Cecil Bernard George -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- and you spoke to Chief Tom 4 Bressette and -- 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: -- you told him about the buildup 7 that you observed of the police? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And then -- 10 A: I went back down. 11 Q: You went back down -- 12 A: Stopped again, at the checkpoint. 13 Q: And was this before the incident 14 with Stewart George? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: So that -- did you go three (3) 17 times that afternoon? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: Okay. So the second time in the 20 afternoon you went back and it was -- what time was it? 21 A: The second time when I went back to 22 Kettle Point it must have been about -- maybe about 23 5:30, 6:00. 24 Q: And, so you drove -- how did you get 25 down to -- which route did you follow to get to the

1 Provincial Park and to Army Camp Road? How did you get 2 there? 3 A: I -- I come down East Parkway. 4 Usually I came down East Parkway. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Some -- sometimes I'd come down the 7 Army Camp Road. Most of the time I come up from East 8 Parkway. 9 Q: So the second time around 5:30 in 10 the afternoon on September 6th you drove back along East 11 Parkway. Did you observe any police officers at -- on 12 East Parkway Drive? 13 A: I think there was a couple of 14 cruisers there, the same ones that were there before. 15 Q: Again at the Ministry of Natural 16 Resources parking lot? 17 A: Yeah, it seemed that -- that's where 18 they were, that I saw them at. 19 Q: Was that the parking lot? Did you 20 see a St. Johns Ambulance trailer in the parking lot 21 that day on September 6th? 22 A: I really can't remember. 23 Q: Okay. And, so you drove down East 24 Parkway and you then turned north on -- I mean south, on 25 Army Camp Road?

1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And what, if anything, did you 3 observe on this trip at the Provincial Park? Did you 4 drive into the sandy parking lot that runs from the 5 intersection up to Lake Huron? 6 A: Is this when I was stopped by the -- 7 when -- 8 Q: This was your second visit. I'm 9 just trying -- 10 A: Yeah, the second time when I got 11 stopped at the roadblock, again? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: I just saw some -- I could see some 14 people inside the Park. 15 Q: Inside the Park? So did you stop at 16 that -- on that occasion -- 17 A: I -- 18 Q: -- or you just drove by? 19 A: No, I just drove by. 20 Q: And you were then stopped at the 21 check -- at -- is -- was it the same checkpoint? 22 A: Yeah, the same checkpoint. 23 Q: With the same officers? 24 A: I can't remember. 25 Q: And what happened at -- when you

1 were stopped at this checkpoint? 2 A: Well that's when I said I saw the -- 3 the dump truck inside the Base and then the two (2) 4 officers exchanging -- 5 Q: So, okay -- 6 A: I don't think the guys in the dump 7 truck heard what they said, anyway, because they had 8 loud music playing in the dump truck. 9 Q: But -- but the exchange of -- the 10 police officers were yelling insults at the people 11 inside the Park on the second time you were stopped on 12 September 6th, at the checkpoint? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: Not -- 15 A: It wasn't insults. I think they, 16 from what I can remember, I thought they said, Do we -- 17 do you even know what those words are saying? Something 18 like that, because they had loud music playing in the 19 dump truck. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: Traditional music, so that --that's 22 one thing I can remember the officer said. They said 23 something else, I can't really remember what the other 24 guy said, because I couldn't really hear him. 25 Q: But the -- the person -- the dump

1 truck had traditional First Nation music? 2 A: Yeah. It had people in the back of 3 it. 4 Q: And so this exchange took place 5 around 5:30. People were driving back and forth on the 6 inside of the road, on Army Camp, that runs parallel to 7 Army Camp Drive? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And, do you recall what the police 10 officers at the checkpoint said to you? 11 A: I really can't. 12 Q: And, did they check your car again? 13 A: They looked in the trunk but it was 14 just a quick check. 15 Q: Okay. And, after this trip at five 16 (5) -- around 5:30, did you observe any other police 17 officers on Army Camp Road after you went through the 18 checkpoint? 19 A: I think there was more police up 20 along Army Camp Road. 21 Q: And whereabouts -- 22 A: Mobile. Just cruisers coming down 23 there on the Camp Road, from what I can remember. 24 Q: And, where did you observe the 25 police officers going when you say they were coming down

1 Army Camp Road? Were they going north from Highway 21? 2 A: Yeah, they were going north. They 3 were right about there I met them. Just above the hill, 4 just past Silver Birches. 5 Q: Just past Silver Birches, they -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: The Silver Birches campground? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And the Silver Birches campground is 10 the campground that's -- the campground -- the first 11 campground you -- you -- you meet when you go north on 12 Army Camp Road? 13 A: Yeah, it's right at the hill. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: When you're starting to go up the 16 hill. 17 Q: Go up -- go up the hill towards the 18 Army Camp? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And, were the police -- were the 21 police cruisers stopped there or they -- were they 22 simply -- 23 A: They were mobile. 24 Q: They were mobile. 25 A: They were heading toward the beach.

1 Q: Heading towards the beach? And how 2 many police cruisers did you observe? 3 A: Two (2). 4 Q: Two (2)? And did you observe any 5 police officers at the intersection of Army Camp Road 6 and Highway 21? 7 A: I can't remember. I think there 8 might have been one (1) there earlier in the day, but 9 when I was heading back I don't think there was one (1) 10 there. 11 Q: And did you go back along Highway 12 21? 13 A: Yeah, I went back to Kettle Point on 14 21. 15 Q: And did you observe any police 16 officers at the Ravenswood Road or -- 17 A: I observed some police -- some more 18 police cars heading toward the Army Camp. 19 Q: They went -- 20 A: They didn't turn down Ravenswood 21 Road, they kept going. 22 Q: They went -- they went east on 23 Highway 21 towards the Army Camp? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And, when you got back to the --

1 Kettle Point after this -- your second trip -- what did 2 you do? 3 A: I went and saw Bernard again and I 4 told him there's more -- I seen more police down there - 5 - more police coming from Forest, going toward the Army 6 Camp. 7 Q: Did you speak to Chief Bressette? 8 A: Yeah, I was -- No, I didn't speak to 9 him that time. I went -- I was going to go -- I told 10 Bernard I'm going to go take another look and see if 11 there's -- see how much more cops are going down there. 12 I didn't go see the chief that time. 13 Q: Okay. And, so, did you go back? 14 A: Yeah, I went back and that's -- 15 that's when that altercation occurred with Stewart 16 George. 17 Q: Okay. Now, when you went back to 18 the Provincial Park and the Army Camp later that 19 evening, I take it was in early -- the early evening, 20 just before dark? 21 A: I'd say maybe about an hour before 22 dark. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: Maybe about forty-five (45) minutes. 25 Q: And how did you get there?

1 A: The car. 2 Q: And -- the same car you were driving 3 in the afternoon? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And -- 6 A: It's a blue car, a blue Grand Am. 7 Q: A blue Grand Am? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And who did that car belong to? 10 A: My sister. 11 Q: And, your sister was older? 12 Younger? 13 A: Younger. 14 Q: Younger? And -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Millar, 16 do you think this would be a good time or do you want to 17 keep going? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, no this would 19 be a good time. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 21 getting into another area. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Sure. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 24 this would be a good time to take a morning break. 25 We've been going for an hour -- just over an hour and a

1 half. 2 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. Thank you, 3 sir. 4 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 5 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 10:35 a.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 10:54 a.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed. Please be seated. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Thank you. Just before we broke, 15 Mr. George, we were about to -- you were about to tell 16 us about your third trip down to the Provincial Park and 17 the Army Camp on September 6th and I think you said that 18 it was approximately an hour before -- 19 A: Sunset. 20 Q: -- sunset when you went down and so, 21 could you tell us how you got to the area of the 22 Provincial Park, please? 23 A: I went down -- I come down West 24 Parkway and that leads to -- then you cross Ravenswood 25 Road --

1 Q: Yes, and West -- 2 A: -- or Ipperwash Road. 3 Q: -- West Parkway is a road that runs 4 parallel to the -- 5 A: 21, yeah. 6 Q: 21, but also parallel to the lake? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Yes? 9 A: And from there you get onto East 10 Parkway and at East Parkway I went up and noticed a 11 couple of cruisers sitting there -- 12 Q: And you noticed -- 13 A: -- at the -- 14 Q: -- cruisers at the -- the Ministry 15 of Natural Resources Parking lot? 16 A: Yeah. Then I kept going toward the 17 -- the Park where you go around the curve. 18 Q: Yes? 19 A: And I -- when I was slowing down, 20 coming to the curve, I saw a couple of people standing 21 out in the sand -- 22 Q: Yes? 23 A: -- and -- and I saw Stewart George 24 come out, waving me to stop. So I pulled over and 25 stopped.

1 Q: Yes? 2 A: Not on the road, but in -- in the 3 sand, kind of. 4 Q: And can -- behind you there's a map. 5 It's a copy of Exhibit P-23. Can you point out to us -- 6 and if you stand up, Mr. George, if you could take that 7 microphone -- that handheld microphone so that -- and if 8 you could take the black pen that's in front of you, 9 could you indicate on this copy of Exhibit P-23 where 10 you stopped? 11 A: Probably about here. 12 Q: And could you -- the mark that 13 you've drawn there is -- indicates where your car 14 stopped? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And your car would be a little 17 larger than that but it was in approximately that 18 location? 19 A: Yes. On that side of the road in 20 the sand. 21 Q: On the west side of the road just at 22 the -- no, excuse me, on the east side of the road of 23 Army Camp Road just as it -- East Parkway turns south 24 and changes into Army Camp Road? 25 A: Yeah.

1 Q: And so where did you observe Mr. 2 Stewart George? Where was Mr. Stewart George when you 3 first observed him? 4 A: He was right around this area. 5 Q: And could you mark a number 1 beside 6 your car and mark number 2 -- could you mark where you - 7 - you saw Mr. Stewart George? And could you mark a 8 number 2 beside it? 9 A: That's supposed to be a 2. 10 Q: Okay. So that you marked a dot 11 where you saw Mr. Stewart George and you've marked 12 number 2 beside it? I think you can sit down now. 13 So that as you were approaching -- 14 driving east on East Parkway Drive towards the what has 15 been referred as the sandy parking lot but it's the area 16 that the access road to Lake Huron? You've been on that 17 prior to September 6th, 1995. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And it runs -- that road runs up to 20 Lake Huron? 21 A: Yeah. To the beach. 22 Q: And -- to the beach? And you 23 observed Mr. Stewart George, and was anyone with Mr. 24 Stewart George? 25 A: There was some young people there.

1 Q: And do you know -- can you tell us 2 how many young people? 3 A: Five (5). Maybe four (4) or five 4 (5). 5 Q: And did you recognize any of the 6 young people? 7 A: I recognized -- one (1) of them at 8 the time I didn't know his name until maybe about a 9 month later. It was J.T. 10 Q: And you're referring to Mr. J. T. 11 Cousins? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And did you recognize any of the 14 other people that were with -- in the park -- were they 15 -- I take it they were in the parking lot near Mr. 16 George? 17 A: Yeah. At the time I recognized, I 18 didn't know his name either, I think it was Judas' boy. 19 Q: Nick -- Nicholas Cotrelle? 20 A: Yeah. I didn't really know his 21 name. I -- I remember how he looked from -- he worked 22 at -- he used to cut the grass down at Kettle Point Park 23 when I managed there. He worked for the roads crew. 24 Q: And what about David George? Do you 25 know David George?

1 A: Yeah. I didn't -- I didn't see Dave 2 George there. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: I can't remember. 5 Q: Can't remember if you saw him or 6 not? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And can you remember anybody else? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And so as you were driving down you 11 say that Stewart waved you down? Waved at you? 12 A: Yeah. Waved for me to pull over. 13 Q: And how fast were you driving when 14 you were coming down East Parkway as you approached the 15 intersection, the curve? 16 A: Not very fast, maybe about thirty 17 (30) -- thirty (30) clicks and then I started slowing 18 down at the curve. 19 Q: Yes. So you stopped, then what 20 happened? 21 A: I rolled down my window and Stewart 22 come up to the window and he's mad. 23 Q: And what was he mad about? Did he 24 say? 25 A: He's mad about the -- the letter I

1 put in the Forest Standard. 2 Q: And that letter that's been marked 3 Exhibit 73? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: The one that was published on August 6 the 30th? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: The one that which you used the 9 strong language? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And what exactly did Mr. Stewart 12 George say to you? Do you recall? 13 A: He was -- he was made. He said -- 14 he said my father lives in here, you shouldn't be 15 calling them animal and stuff like that. 16 And I said I didn't -- I didn't mean your 17 father, I meant the guys who were doing that to the 18 people in the Park. He just said you shouldn't be -- 19 you shouldn't be writing that kind of stuff. He was 20 quite angry over it. 21 Q: And his father was Abraham George? 22 A: I think so, yeah. 23 Q: And the -- so what did you say, if 24 anything? 25 A: I just said, Well, you guys

1 shouldn't be doing that kind of things to campers in the 2 Park, because it gets all over the place and it's making 3 us all look bad. 4 And when they -- I turned down to grab 5 something off my seat. When I did, I got punched in the 6 side of the head. 7 Q: And -- 8 A: When I looked away. 9 Q: Who punched you in the side of the 10 head? 11 A: Must have been Stewart, because he's 12 the only one standing there. 13 Q: And then what did you do? Did he 14 say anything to you, did you say anything to him? 15 A: No, I just said, What the hell -- 16 what the hell are you doing? I just pulled away and I 17 stopped and I said, What the hell you do that for? 18 And then I just whipped a stone, hit the 19 car. 20 Q: And where did it hit the car? 21 A: Back quarter panel, just behind the 22 driver's door. 23 Q: And so was -- do you recall any -- 24 anything else about the exchange with Mr. Stewart George 25 were -- that anything else had -- that was said?

1 A: I remember he was -- smelt like 2 beer. He -- that's why I thought he was drinking. 3 Speech was kind of slurred when he's standing beside -- 4 he's right -- like, right this close. I was sitting in 5 my car. I didn't get out of the car, I just stayed in 6 the car. 7 Q: So he was about a foot away from 8 you? 9 A: About a foot and a half. 10 Q: Yes. And you knew Mr. Stewart 11 George from before this incident? 12 A: Yes, I did. 13 Q: And you and Mr. Stewart George 14 worked together, I think? 15 A: Yeah, for a time on the Kettle Point 16 school. 17 Q: As carpenters? Both of you are 18 carpenters? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And was the exchange between you a 21 calm exchange or a loud exchange? 22 A: Probably loud on Stewart's part and 23 then loud on my part after he'd punched me in the side 24 of the head. 25 Q: And so after -- can you recall any

1 other words that were spoken? 2 A: Not really. I just -- I just told 3 him, I said you...