1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 24th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )    (np)
  4  Donald Worme, Q.C. )    (np)
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  Jodie-Lynn Waddilove)   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein ) (np)       The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )  (np)      George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    ) (np)       (Student-at-law)
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )   (np)       Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )   (np)       Kettle Point & Stoney
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Sue Freeborn     )   (np)
 25  Michelle Pong    )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )   (np)       The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (Np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 11  
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  
 15  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 16  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 17  
 18  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 19  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 20  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 21  Peter West         ) (np)
 22  Nagai On Young     ) (np)
 23  
 24  
 25

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
  3  Karen Jones      )              Police Association &
  4  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
  5  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
  6  Annie Leeks      )   (np)
  7  
  8  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  9  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
 10  Julian Roy       )   (np)
 11  
 12  Al J.C. O'Marra  )   (np)       Office of the Chief
 13  Robert Ash, Q.C.  )   (np)       Coroner
 14  
 15  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 16  Matthew Horner   )
 17  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 18  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 19  Erin Tully       )
 20  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 21  Megan Mackey     )   (np)
 22  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 23  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 24  Melissa Panjer   )
 25  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 Discussion 7 7 8 MILES CHARLES BRESSETTE, Resumed 9 10 Continued Examination-In-Chief 11 by Ms. Katherine Hensel 7 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrew Orkin 46 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 49 14 Cross-Examination by Mr. Brian Eyolfson 90 15 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 94 16 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 121 17 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 155 18 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 160 19 20 21 22 23 Certificate of Transcript 173 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No 3 P-217 Document No. 2002380 Sept 09/95. 4 Results of meeting between Bruce 5 Elijah, Marvin Connors, Miles 6 Bressette, Jim Potts and Paul 7 Trivett. 26 8 P-218 Document No. 6000335 Sept 17/95. 9 Three (3) day joint investigation 10 relation to the death of Anthony 11 Dudley George and related incidents. 41 12 P-219 Kettle and Stony Point Council 13 Meeting Minutes. Jan 05/93 to 14 Nov 27/95. 130 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon convening at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 7 everybody. Just before we start, I said yesterday that I 8 would try to deliver my decision on the request for 9 change of location for Mr. George's testimony by the end 10 of today, if possible. 11 I need a little more time so I'm going to 12 take the weekend and give my decision next week sometime 13 if that's okay. Thank you. 14 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you, Mr. 15 Commissioner. Good morning. 16 17 MILES CHARLES BRESSETTE, Resumed 18 19 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL. 20 Q: Good morning, Mr. Bressette. 21 A: Good morning. 22 Q: If I might remind you that you are 23 still under oath. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: You will recall, Mr. Bressette, that

1 we were discussing the events of late August and early 2 September, 1995 yesterday afternoon. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: I just have one (1) or two (2) more 5 questions about that time period. In mid to late August 6 of 1995, do you have any recollection of discussions at 7 Kettle and Stony Point about members at Kettle Point 8 blocking Highway 21 in the direction of Stony Point? 9 A: Discussion on -- on it? 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: I don't believe there was any 12 discussion, I observed them. 13 Q: Yeah. This was prior to the -- just 14 to remind you, it was prior to the -- to the occupation 15 of Ipperwash Provincial Park. 16 A: I believe there was some discussion 17 on that and there was leaflets handed out by members of 18 the community to people travelling on Highway 21 and 19 County Road 7. 20 Q: Okay. What did those leaflets 21 describe or say? 22 A: I'm not really sure what -- what the 23 protest was all about at that time. I can't remember -- 24 I probably knew what it was but I can't recall. 25 Q: You can't recall now?

1 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. And you didn't discuss with 3 anyone the prospect of Highway 21 being blocked? 4 A: We probably did. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. But you -- can you recall 6 those conversations now? 7 A: No, I can't. 8 Q: Okay. Turning now to September 6th, 9 1995, which was the third day of the occupation of 10 Ipperwash Provincial Park and were you on duty that day? 11 A: I believe so. 12 Q: Okay. And do you recall whether you 13 were on duty on the evening of September 6th? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Just to assist you, Mr. Bressette, 18 September 6th was the day that -- that Dudley George was 19 shot and killed. 20 A: I wasn't on duty, I was paged by 21 Wallace Kaczanowski; I was in the Sarnia area at that 22 time. 23 Q: Okay. And what were you doing in 24 Sarnia? 25 A: I was with my family on an outing.

1 Q: Around what time of day were you 2 paged? 3 A: It must have been around 10:30 -- 4 eleven o'clock. 5 Q: And what did you do when you received 6 the page? 7 A: I immediately returned the telephone 8 call to where the page was coming from. 9 Q: Okay. And -- 10 A: I spoke to Constable Kaczanowski. 11 Q: What did he tell you? 12 A: He told me there was two (2) or three 13 (3) people that were shot -- shot and killed at -- 14 Q: Did he -- 15 A: -- the Provincial Park. He was 16 really sketchy on what really occurred and I believe one 17 (1) of the names that he mentioned at the time was 18 Bernard George had been killed and I can't remember the 19 other people that he -- he mentioned at that time. 20 Q: Okay. And did he tell you anything 21 else about the circumstances or what was going on at 22 Kettle Point or at Stoney Point? 23 A: No. I can't -- I can't recall what 24 the conversation was, but I advised him that I would 25 immediately return to Kettle Point.

1 Q: And then what did you do? 2 A: My family and I, we left for Kettle 3 Point immediately. 4 Q: You left Kettle Point? 5 A: No, left Sarnia for Kettle Point. 6 Q: Okay. And what route did you take 7 back to -- on returning to Kettle Point? 8 A: I took the old lakeshore road known 9 as County Road 7. 10 Q: Did you encounter any checkpoints 11 along the way? 12 A: I can't recall, I don't think I did. 13 Q: And did you see any out-of-the- 14 ordinary police activity or presence along the way? 15 A: I can't recall. 16 Q: Okay. So, what happened next? 17 A: I returned to my residence and put my 18 uniform on and went on duty. I think I met Constable 19 Kaczanowski at the Kettle Point Police Station. We then 20 went out on patrol from there and I believe we were 21 sitting down on what's known now as Rawlings Road and 22 West Ipperwash Road. 23 Q: Okay. And what happened there? 24 A: We were listening to the monitor, the 25 police radio, for any information on what was actually

1 going on. I can't recall any transmissions at this point 2 in time. 3 Q: Just to take you back, on your return 4 to Kettle Point, did you see any people gathered in front 5 of what we've heard described as the plaza or Point's 6 Preference Mall? 7 A: I believe there was a -- a lot of 8 people up in that area at that time. 9 Q: Okay. Could you approximate how 10 many? 11 A: There was probably at least a hundred 12 (100) people. 13 Q: Did you stop in the parking lot in 14 front of the plaza? 15 A: I believe at some point in time we 16 stopped, if I can remember, Tom Bressette I -- I think 17 was addressing the crowd with a loudspeaker asking them 18 to -- to more or less calm down and trying to advise what 19 had taken place. 20 Q: Okay. Do you recall roughly what 21 time that would've occurred? 22 A: That would of been around midnight or 23 after. 24 Q: And when did you -- when would you 25 estimate that you returned to Kettle Point from Sarnia?

1 A: It would have had to been around 2 11:30, between 11:30 and midnight. 3 Q: Okay. Did you have any conversations 4 with Constable Kaczanowski about him attending at the 5 Forest Detachment that evening? 6 A: He -- he may have discussed it with 7 me, I'm not sure. I can't recall it. 8 Q: Okay. But he didn't go to Forest at 9 any point after you returned to Kettle Point? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Were you aware at the time of an 12 incident that had occurred earlier in the evening 13 involving Darryl George? 14 A: No. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Okay. Returning to the -- the people 19 gathered in the parking lot in front of the plaza, what 20 was the mood in the parking lot of the people gathered 21 there that you could observe? 22 A: People were extremely upset, angry. 23 Q: And how did you know that? 24 A: I could hear people yelling and 25 swearing and it was directed at Ontario Provincial

1 Police. 2 Q: And did you at any point see people 3 gathered on Highway 21 with a fire started there and a 4 barricade? 5 A: Yes, there were truck -- truck loads 6 of people taking large logs and debris up to the Highway 7 21 and setting it on fire. 8 Q: Okay. And as a police officer, did 9 you take any action in response to those activities? 10 A: No, I did not. 11 Q: Why not? 12 A: Highway 21 was -- was blocked off. 13 There was no one in the area. There was no traffic at 14 the time. Also under those circumstances I felt our 15 safety was at jeopardy. 16 Q: Why did you feel your safety was in 17 jeopardy? 18 A: Because there was a lot of angry 19 people. 20 Q: Did you speak to the Band Chief Tom 21 Bressette or any of the Band councillors about how to 22 deal with that barricade? 23 A: I probably did. I can't recall how 24 we resolved that to this day. It may be that through 25 Tom's speech to the people on what had occurred, I'm not

1 sure, I think at some point in time the roads department 2 went out and cleaned the highway up. 3 Q: Would that have been that night or? 4 A: It could have been later that earlier 5 that morning. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. Did you receive any 7 direction from Chief and/or Council about what to do for 8 the remainder of that evening as a police officer in the 9 community? 10 A: Just to patrol the community, I guess 11 try to do what we could do in regards to -- like general 12 police operations which is usually preventing break and 13 enters, assaults, anything like that, like the ususal. 14 But, in regards to the -- to the incident 15 that just had occurred at Ipperwash, people were 16 extremely upset and we didn't get involved in that. 17 Q: All right. Did you communicate at 18 any point with any member of the OPP on your return to 19 Kettle Point that evening? 20 A: I had a brief con -- conversation 21 with, I can't remember who, but they wanted us to attend 22 Forest -- 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: -- and how it was put is, stand with 25 them in Forest, and I advised them that Kettle Point was

1 in chaos at this particular time and I don't think it was 2 a good time to leave the community. They had plenty of 3 officers in Forest and we remained in -- in Kettle Point. 4 Q: Do you recall approximately what time 5 that conversation would have occurred? 6 A: It could around -- been around 7 between midnight and 1:30 in the morning. 8 Q: Thank you. And were you in radio 9 communication with any of the offi -- OPP officers on the 10 ground in the area? 11 A: I believe we heard bits and pieces of 12 transmission; it didn't involve us. 13 Q: Okay. At any point during that 14 night, we've heard earlier from Constable Kaczanowski -- 15 we heard yesterday that -- that you and he received a 16 call from the OPP requesting assistance in returning a 17 band member to -- to Kettle and Stony Point. 18 Do you recall that -- that event? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Can you describe it? 21 A: They wanted us to attend Forest to 22 pick up this individual. They didn't say who the person 23 was at that particular time, but they wanted that person 24 returned to Kettle Point to their residence and I 25 advised them there's just too much going on in the

1 community, can you bring the person, say to Indian Hills 2 Golf Course and we'll pick the person up from there and 3 convey them home from there, which they did. 4 Q: Okay. And who was that individual? 5 A: It was Marcia Simons. 6 Q: All right. And can you describe what 7 you did when you picked her up? 8 A: We just parked beside the OPP 9 cruiser. She then got into our vehicle. I believe I 10 advised her we were going to take her home because what - 11 - what I detected in her face was a look of fear and for 12 Marcia Simon, she was very quiet, and that's my 13 recollection, is we took her home, which is only one (1) 14 or two (2) minutes from where we were at. 15 Q: Okay. Did you have any conversation 16 with her that you can recall? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. And did you note any odour of 19 alcohol coming from Ms. Simon? 20 A: No. 21 Q: All right. We have in front of you, 22 on the desk there, an undated document -- if you could -- 23 that has been provided to us by the Province of Ontario. 24 Do you recognize that document? For the benefit of 25 Counsel, this was part of the package that was provided

1 by Mr. Myrka several months ago; paper copies. 2 A: In -- this -- this -- this is not my 3 -- this is not my Will State. I've never seen this 4 document before. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: It says I've been policing for 7 approximately twelve (12) years and this was back in 8 1995. I wouldn't have written that like that. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: Plus, this incident was, at the most, 11 five (5) minutes. There's no way that I would have made 12 observations such as that, like, if she was arrested for 13 impaired operation, she would have been taken before a 14 qualified breathalyzer technician in Forest and he would 15 have made those types of observations, whether she was 16 odour of alcohol or intoxicated or whatever. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: I would not have made those types of 19 observations just transfer a person home. 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: What I would have looked at is for, 22 say, any type of injuries; I may have observed for those, 23 but for something like this, no. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Not at such a small period of time.

1 Q: Thank you, Mr. Bressette. 2 Do you recall when you went off duty on 3 September 7th? 4 A: It must have been -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 6 you move on, Ms. Hensel, is this document in our document 7 base or how could we identify the -- 8 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: I'm sorry, it is 9 an undated document. It -- it has been provided to all 10 Counsel, it -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 12 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: -- isn't in the 13 Supertext database at this point. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 15 that, but is there some way that we could make reference 16 to it for our transcript? 17 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Sure. 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Look, he doesn't -- 19 he's never seen it before. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I know 21 that. I'm aware of that, that's why I don't know. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me, Mr. 23 Commissioner, the Witness has said he is not the author 24 of this document and none of the information came from 25 him. In light of the fact that it contains a slur

1 against a person, I would respectfully request that it 2 should not be made part of the record unless somebody can 3 verify that slur. Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL. 7 Q: I'm sorry, Mr. Bressette, you were 8 saying, when you went off duty? 9 A: Approximately 5:00 a.m. 10 Q: Okay. And when did you go back on 11 duty? 12 A: Approximately 8:00 a.m. 13 Q: And the time between 5:00 and 8:00 14 a.m. what did you do? 15 A: I got some sleep. 16 Q: When you returned to active duty, 17 what did you do? 18 A: I went directly to the Kettle Point 19 Administration building. 20 Q: And what did you observe there? 21 A: There was a number of councillors as 22 well as some police commission members and the Chief and 23 various other people. 24 Q: And what was going on? 25 A: They were discussing the situation at

1 Ipperwash. I can't recall all that was taking place at 2 that time. There was a lot of things taking place. 3 Q: Were you on duty when -- we've heard 4 from many other witnesses, that people marched from 5 Kettle Point to Stony Point or to Aazhoodena, or Camp 6 Ipperwash; did you observe that? 7 A: Yes, I believe I did. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I was just on duty observing along 10 Highway 21 and that's as much as I could remember. 11 Q: Okay. Do you recall how many people 12 were participated in that march? 13 A: There must have been at least fifty 14 (50) people. 15 Q: And as a police officer, did you 16 engage in any policing activity in relation to that 17 march? 18 A: I don't believe so. Just making sure 19 -- we may have provided traffic -- I -- I can't recall. 20 Q: Did you have any communication with 21 any member of the OPP concerning that march? 22 A: Yes, I believe I do but I can't 23 remember with who and what the conversation was about; no 24 doubt it would be about their safety, marching on a 25 highway.

1 Q: And did you receive any direction 2 from the Band -- from Chief and Council about what to do 3 in relation to that march? 4 A: I may have, I can't recall. 5 Q: Can you describe your activities for 6 the remainder of September 7th? 7 A: There was a lot of -- a lot of people 8 in the area. I think the Band Council was trying to 9 discuss some solutions on how they could help people to - 10 - to calm down and not -- not to create any further 11 problems to where there would be violence. 12 Also, Kettle Point was a -- a seven (7) 13 man police force, we knew that. The -- we knew that the 14 -- the OPP probably wouldn't go back into the situation 15 because there could be further violence, so there was a 16 number of First Nation police forces calling Kettle Point 17 saying that they -- they could, you know, send so many -- 18 so much manpower and I believe it was Anishnaabe asking 19 police force if they were willing to send a number of men 20 and Anishnaabeg police force. 21 I believe the Chief gave me authority to - 22 - to set up who -- what -- what police force we'd be 23 bringing down and I think we chose the Anishnaabeg 24 because they could drive and they didn't have to fly out, 25 so there was not a -- a great deal of cost, like flying a

1 lot of guys from the north -- 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: -- so, a lot of them drove. 4 Q: Do you recall when they -- when they 5 arrived? 6 A: It could have been around the 8th or 7 9th of September. I think -- I'm not sure when we met 8 with the Chief Superintendent Coles, I -- I think it was 9 the night after, it was at the -- in Grand Bend. 10 Q: Sorry, that would have been September 11 8th? 12 A: Yes, I believe so. There was a 13 number of chiefs as long -- as well as the national 14 chief. They attended Grand Bend and had a -- a circle 15 sitting and -- and just expressed a lot of their opinions 16 and stuff and try to come up with some solutions how they 17 could help people to, I guess, come to grips with this 18 tragedy that there wouldn't be any further violence. 19 Q: As a result of that -- that meeting, 20 were there any agreements reached between -- with the 21 OPP? 22 A: I believe there was a lot of 23 resolutions put onto the floor on how the OPP could help 24 to calm the situation as well as the -- the chiefs. I 25 can't recall what all of those were, but I think the

1 first thing was sitting down and talking. 2 Q: Okay. If I could take you to Tab 2 of 3 the binder in front of you, there are minutes from a 4 meeting on September 9th, 1995. That meeting was 5 attended by Bruce Elijah, Marvin Connor, Miles Bressette, 6 Jim Potts and Paul Trivett. Do you recall that meeting? 7 I'm sorry, that's Document 2002380. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What's the 9 tab number? 10 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Tab 2. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Two (2). 12 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I remember this 14 meeting. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 17 Q: Hmm hmm. Now, it refers -- the first 18 point in the minutes says, "BCR approved", which I take 19 to mean Band Council Resolution approved; would that be 20 correct? 21 A: Yes, that's correct. 22 Q: Do you know -- recall -- what band 23 council resolution that referred to? 24 A: If you turn over to the next page, 25 2002380 --

1 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- the Band Council Resolution is 3 marked and it advises what would be taking place. 4 Q: Okay. I'll just read that directly 5 into the record. It says: 6 "We, the Kettle and Stony Point Band 7 Council and supporting Chiefs, support 8 a peaceful resolution by supporting an 9 initiative of unarmed First Nation 10 police and persons designated by Bruce 11 Elijah and Marvin Connors, liaison for 12 the residents of Stoney Point Ipperwash 13 Provincial Park. 14 Responsible for patrolling the area 15 concern known as Army Camp Road, 16 objective to keep the peace and protect 17 the properties of those residents that 18 were evacuated from the area 19 surrounding Stoney Point and Ipperwash 20 Provincial Park." 21 Now, was that Band Council Resolution or 22 that initiative discussed at the meeting the night before 23 in Grand Bend? 24 A: It could have been, I can't recall. 25 Q: And would this have represented

1 something out of the ordinary for you police service to 2 be taking responsibility for patrolling or policing the 3 areas described in this Band Council Resolution? 4 A: Yes, it's very out of the ordinary. 5 It was on a volunteer basis to members of the Kettle 6 Point police and also Anishnaabeg; none -- none of them 7 were ordered to do this. It was a volunteer basis 8 whether they wanted to patrol with a peacekeeper and be 9 unarmed. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: And if I could 14 have these minutes marked as the next exhibit? 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-217, Your Honour. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-217. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-217: Document No. 2002380 Sept 19 09/95. Results of meeting 20 between Bruce Elijah, Marvin 21 Connors, Miles Bressette, Jim 22 Potts and Paul Trivett. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL. 25 Q: So, as a result of the agreement to

1 patrol the area with the peacekeepers, did you in fact 2 engage in patrols of the area? 3 A: Yes, yes, we did. 4 Q: Okay. For how long did that go on 5 following September 9th? 6 A: Probably a little over a month, 7 couple of months. 8 Q: Okay. And you refer to peacekeepers. 9 Can you describe who they were? 10 A: I believe their names were the -- if 11 I can pronounce it properly, Antitioc (phonetic) 12 peacekeepers from the Oneida First Nation. 13 Q: And by your understanding what was 14 their role? 15 A: They -- one -- I guess once the 16 violence took place September 6th, they came in from what 17 I understand the Oneida First Nation to bring about some 18 sort of, I guess, some sort of structure of some sort of, 19 I guess , settling for -- for Camp Ipperwash. 20 There was a lot of people in the camp at 21 the time and this -- this I know from first hand 22 experience, after this BCR was -- was signed, I was -- I 23 attended the Ipperwash camp with Bruce Elijah and I 24 believe Marvin Connors and the people in the camp thought 25 that the OPP or even the army was going to force their

1 way into -- into the military camp. And we were trying 2 to advise them that this was not -- not true, that the 3 Department of National Defence or the Ontario Provincial 4 Police were not interested in going into the Military 5 Camp and -- and attempting to remove anyone. 6 And the peacekeepers were there to, I 7 guess, bring about some sort of a -- some sort of laws or 8 -- or bring about peace within the -- the Military Camp 9 itself and also help the people to feel more at ease that 10 they were there to support and to help and more or less 11 act as a -- as a force if any outside forces tried to 12 come into the Military Camp. 13 Q: And -- all right. You mentioned 14 Marvin Connors; who was he? Who is he? 15 A: He was introduced to myself by Bruce 16 Elijah and he was one (1) of the spokespersons for the 17 peacekeepers within the -- the Military Camp. I -- I 18 didn't know him or -- it's the first time I met him. 19 Q: Do you know where he was from? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. And you also said that you 22 expressed to the people occupying the Camp that the OPP 23 had no intention of removing anyone from the Camp; how 24 did you know that? 25 A: That was most likely addressed by

1 Chief Superintendent Coles at the meeting at the Grand 2 Bend meeting the -- the night before. 3 Q: Okay. So, you attended at Camp 4 Ipperwash on September 9th? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Was that the first time that you'd 7 gone into the Camp after the events of September 6th? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Can you describe -- I know you said a 10 bit about it already, but can you describe what you saw 11 going on there and the mood of the people there? 12 A: The people seemed to be in a -- in a 13 state of -- of fear, there was a lot of fear. Also, they 14 did not know what was going to take place next and were 15 trying to convey to them that they don't have any reason 16 to worry, that the OPP weren't going to storm the gates; 17 or the Military were given the word by Chris Coles and I 18 think we even had meetings with people from the Military 19 prior to that, they -- 20 There might have been representatives 21 there from the night before down in Grand Bend at that 22 meeting, I'm not sure, but we tried to assure them that 23 they could, you know, not worry about anybody storming 24 the gates or coming in to remove anyone and that we, as 25 First Nation police officers, were there as well as the

1 peacekeepers to try and give some sort of, I don't know, 2 peace to their minds, I guess, from worrying about any 3 further violence. 4 I said, This is why we're here, to prevent 5 any further violence and I know I -- I was received well. 6 I was invited into the Camp for a coffee. I went in and 7 had my coffee and then later on I was taken out and taken 8 down to the Ipperwash Provincial Park and introduced to 9 various peacekeepers. 10 This was a new thing. The police cruiser 11 was marked by white flags indicating that it was unarmed 12 and that we were there as -- as observers and also to 13 keep the peace. We were also there to investigate 14 allegations of break and enters into the cottages because 15 the OPP were getting a lot of pressure at that time 16 stating that Native people were breaking into their 17 residences and taking them over and all that kind of 18 stuff. 19 And so we had a -- I believe we had a 20 video camera to where we'd go to some of these 21 allegations and -- and video tape just to show that a lot 22 of these allegations were not true. 23 Q: Turning to that video ta -- or that 24 video taping, did you -- do you recall which cottages you 25 would have gone into?

1 A: I remember going into two (2) or 2 three (3) cottages. I can't remember whether I had the 3 camera or not. At least two (2) particular cottages that 4 stand out in my mind, I didn't have a video camera. The 5 reason I can remember them so plainly is because one of 6 the owners were at that residence. 7 And that was a white cottage adjacent the 8 Provincial Park right at the end of Army Camp Road. And 9 one of the interesting things that the lady said who 10 owned the residence, is somebody had -- had eaten there 11 and they cleaned up the dishes and put them back. She 12 knew exactly where everything was. 13 Also there was six (6) to eight (8) 14 twenty-six (26) or forty (40) ounce bottles of vodka that 15 were not opened in the cupboard. She said they were not 16 hers. And also there was up in the upstairs of the 17 residence there was a bag of clothes with some porno 18 magazines. She said those were not hers. 19 But, she said -- one of the things she 20 said her residence was very clean and whoever was in 21 there kept things very clean and cleaned up after 22 themselves. It was very strange for a break and enter 23 for people to leave six (6) to eight (8) twenty-six (26) 24 forty (40) ounces of -- I'm sorry twenty-six (26) ounce 25 or forty (40) ounce bottles of vodka. Those were turned

1 over to Constable George Speck at that time. 2 Q: And do you recall the -- the name of 3 the woman who owned the cottage? 4 A: No, I can't recall. 5 Q: And could you describe the location 6 of that cottage? 7 A: It would be at the very north end of 8 Army Camp Road, the very last cottage adjacent the 9 Ipperwash Provincial Park. 10 Q: Did you have any conversations with 11 OPP members? First of all, where there any OPP 12 accompanying you when you visited that particular 13 residence? 14 A: Yes. I believe Constable George 15 Speck was there and I can't remember who else. 16 Q: All Do you recall having any 17 conversations with him about what might have occurred 18 there? 19 A: Yes, but he didn't -- he didn't know 20 anymore than what I knew. 21 Q: And in your view -- did you have any 22 views on -- on what had happened at that cottage? 23 A: It would be speculation on my part. 24 I -- I don't know. 25 Q: And did you conduct any further

1 investigation of that particular reported break-in? 2 A: No, that was turned over to the OPP. 3 Q: And you mentioned going into other 4 cottages with the video camera. Were the -- were the 5 owners present when you did that? 6 A: There were other officers involved. 7 I'm not sure, I can't recall at this time. 8 Q: Okay. And what did you find at those 9 other cottages? 10 A: This one particular other cottage I 11 went into was a very large cottage and again it was 12 really strange because -- I mean, usually when we observe 13 break and enters in the area, TV's, VCR's, stereo 14 systems, all that type of stuff would be more or less 15 gone. 16 In these particular residences, this one 17 residence, I believe it had two (2) or three (3) levels 18 with a lot of really nice furniture and a lot of really 19 nice electronic equipment, usually something that people 20 would take, and at this particular time, the male 21 individual who owned the cottage said it was strange and 22 that the only thing that he could see missing at that 23 particular time was a pair of binoculars. 24 Q: Okay. And which cottage was that, if 25 you could describe the location?

1 A: It was, I think, the third cottage 2 over from -- from the white one right at the -- right 3 along Army Camp Road by the -- the first one I just 4 described. I believe this one is the third cottage west 5 of -- of that location. 6 Q: So, it would have been onto East 7 Parkway. Was it on the other side of the bend towards 8 Kettle Point? 9 A: Oh, yes, it would be towards to 10 Kettle Point along the beach, though. 11 Q: If I could turn you to Tab 9 of the 12 binder in front of you, that contains Inquiry Document 13 Number 6000335 and it's titled, Three Day Joint 14 Investigation Relating to the Death of Anthony Dudley 15 George and related incidents. 16 At -- on the 6th page there, you'll see 17 it's titled, Members of the Three Investigative Units; do 18 you see that page? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And you'll see there that you were 21 listed, although your name appears to be misspelled, 22 Miles Bressette, under, First Nations Investigation Team 23 Members. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. Can you describe how -- you'll

1 see three (3) investigative units who apparently, from 2 this document, appear to have collaborated in the -- in 3 the investigation that took place and is described here. 4 Can you describe how that cooperation and 5 these units came to -- came to exist? 6 A: I believe this was set up by the 7 Special Investigations Unit members. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: And also the Band Council. 10 Q: Okay. Now, if you turn to the 11 previous -- to the second page or third page of that 12 document, it's titled, Memorandum of Understanding 13 between the First Nations People at Stoney Point and the 14 Ontario Provincial Police On Conditions for Conducting a 15 Joint Identification Investigation of the Physical Site 16 and Circumstances Relating to the Death of Anthony Dudley 17 George and Related Incidents. 18 Did you play any part in the negotiation 19 of that Memorandum of Understanding? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Yes, I believe I was in on 24 discussions in regard to this memorandum. 25 Q: Now, I realize this was almost ten

1 (10) years ago, but can you describe if you recall those 2 discussions? 3 A: I believe they were initiated at the 4 Kettle Point Band Office by members of the SIU. I'm not 5 sure if the Ontario Provincial Police were involved at 6 this time, they -- they must have been. 7 It was in regards to -- there was, like a 8 -- like a two (2) part -- a two (2) part system here, one 9 (1) was for the investigation of the SIU I believe to go 10 into -- to the area where the -- where Dudley was -- was 11 shot and to investigate the scene, also, the bus and the 12 -- and the -- and the car that were involved. 13 And there was later negotiations to where 14 Chief Superintendent Coles, along with Bruce Elijah and 15 Marvin Connors, and I believe the Chief -- there was a 16 number of people involved at the Kettle Point Police 17 Station to where there was a lot of talks taking place in 18 regards to returning of OPP equipment. 19 And the peacekeepers assisted a lot in -- 20 in, I guess, negotiating with the people that were 21 holding those items within the Military Camp and 22 ultimately had most of the equipment returned. 23 Q: Okay. If you'll turn to the 7th page 24 of -- of the document in front of you, it should be 25 titled, Property Returned to the OPP by First Nations

1 People. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Items returned on the 18th of 4 September, 1995. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: You'll see a number of items listed 7 there. Did you participate in the return of that 8 property to the OPP? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And can you describe what happened 11 there? 12 A: I believe there were -- there were 13 meetings set up at the Kettle Point Police Department for 14 the Chief Superintendent to meet with some of the 15 spokespersons -- some of the people that were involved 16 at the -- at the shooting that particular evening. I can 17 remember Glenn George, Roderick George, called -- we call 18 him Judas -- Greg George. 19 There was a few members from the Military 20 Camp that, I guess, sat at the table with Chris Coles as 21 well as some members of the Kettle Point Band Council and 22 there was a lot of conversing back and forth. And I 23 believe -- I can't remember who asked me -- it was one 24 (1) of the Kettle Point Band members that were extremely 25 upset at the time because they were holding these

1 meetings and I advised this person, I said, you know, 2 this is part of our job to try to keep the peace. 3 And I said we'd rather see, you know, 4 people sitting and -- and swearing at each other, calling 5 each other names than pointing firearms at each other and 6 this is what kind of took place at first. 7 There was a lot of hurt people because 8 their cousin was -- was shot and killed and I believe the 9 Chief Superintendent understood this. 10 As well, at a lot of these meetings 11 Superintendent Parkins, I think his name was, also 12 assisted and Bruce Elijah and that all came about to 13 start negotiating on bringing down barricades, returning 14 equipment, assisting in the investigation by the SIU, so 15 a lot of good things came out of this. 16 Q: Do you recall, roughly, the timing of 17 that meeting? 18 A: No, I -- there was a -- a lot of 19 meetings. 20 Q: Right. It would have been some time 21 prior to September 18th, though, when the property was 22 returned? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And did you participate at all 25 in the gathering of evidence at the site of either -- at

1 Ipperwash Provincial Park or the vehicles that you 2 referred to earlier, the car and the bus? 3 A: I was there, but I was there as an 4 observer and also security. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: The SIU did the investigation. 7 Members of the OPP assisted in locating debris, casings, 8 such as that. 9 Q: All right. And did this take -- take 10 place -- I note that the Memorandum of Understanding was 11 signed on September 17th, 1995; would that have -- would 12 that investigation and collection of evidence have taken 13 place after September 17th? 14 A: You mean with the SIU? 15 Q: Yes. 16 A: It may have -- it may have started 17 that day on the 17th. 18 Q: Okay. And prior to that, did you 19 participate in or observe the collection of any evidence 20 at any of those sites? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Were you aware that any evidence had 23 been collected? 24 A: Yes, by the peacekeepers and also 25 speaking to various members within the Military Camp that

1 they collected a lot of casings from the shooting site. 2 And I tried to convey to them that they weren't really 3 helping the situation out in that they should have 4 allowed the SIU to come in immediately. 5 But, there was so much uncertainty on who 6 was who and what was going to happen next that they 7 didn't feel that was the way to do it and they collected 8 a lot of this evidence prior to the SIU going in. 9 Q: And did you remain involved in the 10 SIU investigation that proceeded in the weeks and months 11 following September 17th, 1995? 12 A: Not really. Once the collection of 13 evidence was completed at -- at the shooting scene, I 14 don't believe we had too much to do with it after that. 15 Q: Okay. I just have a few more 16 questions for you, Mr. Bressette. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL:: Mr. Millar has 21 kindly suggested to me that we enter Document Number 22 600335 as the next exhibit. And I should note -- I 23 should note that the Memorandum of Understanding that -- 24 that I referred to earlier has already been entered as 25 Exhibit P-47 but it's also contained in this document.

1 THE REGISTRAR: It's Exhibit P-218, Your 2 Honour. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-218. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-218: Document No. 6000335 Sept 6 17/95. Three day joint 7 investigation relation to the 8 death of Anthony Dudley 9 George and related incidents. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 12 Q: Mr. Bressette, prior to the evening 13 of September 6th, 1995, did you receive or had your 14 police service to your knowledge, received any 15 information about the presence of firearms at Ipperwash 16 Provincial Park? 17 A: I don't believe so. I can't recall. 18 Q: You can't recall? Do you believe you 19 would recall -- 20 A: Oh, for sure. 21 Q: -- if you hadn't received such 22 information? 23 A: If the -- if we -- yes, for sure I 24 would recall. I mean, that information would have been 25 passed onto the OPP.

1 Q: Okay. And to the best of your 2 recollection -- 3 A: No. 4 Q: -- no information was received or 5 passed on? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And have you ever heard of Operation 8 Maple or Project Maple? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Okay. We anticipate that we'll be 11 hearing from other witnesses that Project Maple was an 12 OPP operational policing plan concerning the policing of 13 the occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park. 14 Now you've already said that you've never 15 heard of -- of this project or plan, in your view as a 16 First Nations officer and the Chief of Police at Kettle 17 and Stony Point First Nation, would you have had helpful 18 or valuable information to contribute to the development 19 of such a plan? 20 A: I'm not sure. I'm not sure what 21 Project Maple was all about. Being, I guess, raised and 22 growing up in the area and also knowing most of the 23 people within the Camp Ipperwash, I think we would have 24 probably had been able to help out in that area. 25 Q: And I apologize if I've asked this of

1 you earlier, but did the OPP at any time request your 2 assistance or the assistance of any of your officer 3 members in the policing of activities at Ipperwash 4 Provincial Park; the occupation of Ipperwash Provincial 5 Park on September 4th through 6th? 6 A: No. 7 Q: No. And if that request -- if that 8 assistance had been requested, in your opinion, would 9 Chief and Council have permitted you to provide such 10 assistance? 11 A: I don't believe so. 12 Q: You don't believe so. 13 A: No. 14 Q: And do you believe your participation 15 in the policing of the occupation of the Park would have 16 been -- would have added to the effectiveness of the 17 policing of that occupation? 18 A: Yes, I believe so. Like only looking 19 at it after everything was over with, the negotiations, 20 the meeting, with people from the camp later on after the 21 incident, the return of the equipment, the assistance and 22 helping to investigate the -- or helping the SIU to do 23 their job and also assisting in us -- with us in regards 24 to responding to any allegations of break and enters in 25 the cottage area, I would say, yes, we would have had a

1 lot of input in -- I think it would have turned out well. 2 Q: Okay. You mentioned earlier that 3 barricades were taken down as a result of your -- the 4 activities that you mentioned, the negotiations and 5 agreements and after September 6th and particularly after 6 September 9th, where were these barricades? 7 A: There was one (1) on, I think they 8 call it East or -- East Parkway Drive now, down right on 9 the intersection of Army Camp Road, there was a large 10 barricade in the middle of the intersection there. There 11 was also some large cement blocks that were blocking 12 access from Army Camp Road down into the beach area. 13 And I remember discussions on those that 14 at first they had no problem taking the barricades down 15 off of Parkway Drive but there was a problem taking the 16 cement blocks, large cement blocks, from blocking access 17 to the -- to the beach road. 18 And I believe one of the -- one of the 19 discussions there was in regards to, you know, if one of 20 the cottages caught on fire, then, you know, the fire 21 department would have a hard time getting down to that 22 cottage and also getting water if they needed it. 23 So, I believe Bruce Elijah was 24 instrumental in helping to negotiate to -- to take those 25 down and they were.

1 Q: Okay. All right. Mr. Bressette, 2 thank you. Those are my questions. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 4 very much. Does anybody wish to examine Mr. Bressette? 5 Mr. Rosenthal...? 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Good morning, Mr. 7 Commissioner. I would anticipate about an hour. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: About an 9 hour? 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: An hour. 11 Mr. Orkin...? 12 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: About two (2) minutes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Mr. 14 Eyolfson...? 15 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Maybe five minutes? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 17 minutes? 18 And Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thirty (30) to 20 forty-five (45) minutes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Ms. 22 Jones...? 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Thirty (30) to forty 24 (40) minutes. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And Ms.

1 McAleer...? 2 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Five (5) minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And I think 4 we might get finished today. As you know, this is our 5 last Witness when we finish with this Witness we're done 6 for the day. 7 I think we should get on with it. It's 8 too early for a morning break. 9 Mr. Orkin, would you begin please? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 14 Q: Good morning, Mr. Bressette. I'm 15 Andrew Orkin, I'm one of the Co-Counsel representing the 16 Estate of Dudley George and the Sam George family group 17 members. 18 I'm going to be very brief in the cross- 19 examination I have with you. You mentioned at the 20 beginning of your testimony that one of your grandparents 21 was born at Stoney Point; is that correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: The Stoney Point reserve lands? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: So, you're a descendant of someone

1 who is -- was connected with that land and was presumably 2 separated from that land? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Which grandparent was that of yours? 5 A: That was Mildred Bressette. 6 Q: Did you know that grandparent? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: You did? So you, in fact, yourself, 9 have a hereditary connection with the Stoney Point lands? 10 You're a descendant of a Stoney Pointer -- 11 A: Yes, my father was also raised at, to 12 a certain age, there also. 13 Q: At Stoney Point? We've heard 14 evidence earlier in this Inquiry that in 1827, the Crown 15 entered into a treaty with your people and that in that 16 treaty, the Crown committed and guaranteed that the 17 original Stoney Point reserve, which included the lands 18 that later became the Base and also later became the 19 Provincial Park, would be native lands in perpetuity or 20 forever. 21 Do you accept or agree with that 22 evidence -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- about that treaty? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: In the course, and you've told us 2 over the last two (2) minutes, about how the Kettle Point 3 Detachment of which you were at that time Chief, became 4 involved in the hours after the shooting and subsequently 5 in patrolling the Stoney Point area. 6 In the course of the context or the 7 briefings or the discussions or any negotiations that you 8 witnessed involving the OPP, during those events of 9 September 6th and after that, did the OPP or anyone 10 associated with the OPP at any time, mention the 11 existence of Treaty Rights or of that Treaty in the 12 situation concerning the Stoney Point lands, that you 13 recall? 14 A: Chief Superintendent Chris Coles may 15 have mentioned it, but I can't recall. 16 Q: Thanks very much, those -- those are 17 my questions, Mr. Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Thank you very much. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 21 Rosenthal...? 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 23 Commissioner. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 2 Q: Good morning, Mr. Bressette. 3 A: Good morning, sir. 4 Q: My name is Peter Rosenthal, I'm one 5 of the Counsel for a group of the descendants of Dan and 6 Melva George, under the name Aazhoodena and George Family 7 Group. 8 Now, first I'd like to deal with the 9 incident with Marcia Simon. You told us this morning 10 that you didn't detect any odour of alcohol on her 11 breath, isn't that right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And, in fact, you know that she was 14 very sober and very afraid, isn't that fair? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And in fact, do you know that Marcia 17 Simon is a person who doesn't drink alcohol? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: So, any allegation that she was 20 intoxicated that night is obviously, definitely false? 21 A: Yes. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Now, you told us yesterday about your

1 notebooks being missing and you told us that in some 2 other litigation you had some of your notebooks. Do you 3 recall that, sir? 4 A: Yes, sir. 5 Q: And what was the other litigation 6 that had occasioned to you look -- be given a chance to 7 see your notebooks and when did that occur? 8 A: I was involved in a -- a Canadian 9 labour hearing with regards to myself. 10 Q: I -- I see. 11 A: And -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We don't 13 want to hear much about this, Mr. Rosenthal. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, that's not 15 relevant then, yes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No, I -- given the 18 answer I agree it's irrelevant, sir. As you appreciate I 19 didn't know what the answer would be. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL. 22 Q: Now, however, sir, at that time did 23 you notice that your notebooks about September 6th and 24 the time around then were not within the notebooks that 25 you were allowed to see at that time, right?

1 I understood your evidence yesterday as 2 indicating you saw some of your notebooks on that 3 occasion in connection with this other litigation. But 4 that the -- your notes with respect to September 6th and 5 the time around September 6th were not among the notes 6 that you were allowed to see on that occasion. Is that - 7 - did I misunderstand you, sir? 8 A: Yes, there was a couple of notebooks 9 that were missing. 10 Q: That were missing? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Including the notebooks that would 13 have dealt with September 6th -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- and the time immediately before 16 and after that date? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And did you enquire as to why those 19 notebooks were missing? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: They would -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And what did you learn about that? 24 A: I know my -- my lawyer tried to get 25 information on where those books were. But we -- we've

1 never -- I don't believe ever got an answer to where 2 those books went. 3 Q: Now, we heard evidence from P/C 4 Kaczanowski yesterday and he indicated that his notes 5 were missing from around this time period. You -- you 6 were in the Inquiry for that evidence, sir, I believe; is 7 that correct? 8 A: Yes, and I -- I explained that the -- 9 there was a point in 1995 to, well, '96 to where the Band 10 council went in and I would usually keep all of my 11 notebooks in a locked cabinet in my office and the Band 12 council went in and removed the locks and I never had 13 access to those documents in that filing cabinet again. 14 However, at the back of my mind, I don't 15 know if this is true or not, we may have at the end of 16 this -- at the end of the Ipperwash incident, we may have 17 been ordered to provide duty reports and all of our books 18 may have been turned over to Inspector Jim Potts of the 19 Ontario Provincial Police. 20 Q: At about when would that have been? 21 What year if - if that -- 22 A: That would have been probably 23 December of 1995. 24 Q: I see. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: Sorry, Mr. Commissioner, I'm having 4 trouble with my computer. One (1) moment please, sir. 5 Now, in general, police officers are 6 responsible for keeping their notebooks, is that true? 7 A: Well usually after -- ten (10) years 8 after the incident, there was policy that the books are 9 kept. 10 Q: Kept for ten (10) years? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: So, that would mean for example, 13 September 6th, 1995 would be kept until September 6th of 14 this year, 2005. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And that's an important 17 responsibility of police officers; you learned that in 18 police college? 19 A: Yes, sir. 20 Q: You told us about some problems that 21 you had as the Chief of the Kettle Point Police, and also 22 being under the command of the Ontario Provincial Police 23 and conflict, perhaps, sometimes in instructions from the 24 Band Council on the one (1) hand and senior officers in 25 the OPP on the other hand.

1 And then, in particular, you told us about 2 an incident involving, I believe at the time, Staff Sgt., 3 perhaps, Carson, where he was complaining that you were 4 charging non-native people with driving offences and he 5 said something to the effect of, If you keep charging my 6 people, we'll start charging yours. 7 Do you recall your evidence about that, 8 sir? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: And you told us that there were many 11 other incidents. 12 Did the other incidents between you and 13 OPP officers have a similar character about us and them 14 kind of question about you're for native people and we're 15 for white people? 16 A: Well, there was some problems. I can 17 remember another situation to where, like, I was a 18 sergeant and I would attend the sergeant meetings in the 19 area here, at one (1) particular meeting I -- I can 20 remember it was taking place, I believe it was in 21 Wallaceburg -- either Wallaceburg or Chatham. It was at 22 the Wheel's Inn anyway and I'm not sure if that's in 23 Wallaceburg or Chatham. 24 I think -- I think it's Wallaceburg, but 25 it was at the Wheel's Inn to where there was a whole room

1 of sergeants from the OPP and I remember one (1) 2 particular inspector was giving a presentation and he was 3 a native person and I can remember the -- the comments 4 coming from a lot of the sergeants that if my education 5 was paid for freely like his, I'd be up there, too, 6 speaking like him. And I was kind of hurt by those 7 comments and stuff and -- but that was -- it -- it's 8 quite prevalent within the OPP. 9 Q: Thank you. Moving to a different 10 aspect of your evidence, you told us yesterday at some 11 point that Chief Tom Bressette, you had heard, first off 12 that he was against the occupation of the Army Camp; is 13 that correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And that he told the Department of 16 National Defence and others that the Kettle and Stony 17 Point Band Council would discontinue negotiations unless 18 they got people out of the Army Camp; is that correct? 19 A: That's correct. 20 Q: Now, to whom did you -- did you know 21 he had made such communication, to -- was it to DND, 22 Department of National Defence? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And also to OPP officers? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: So, he was indicating he wanted the 2 people removed from Camp Ipperwash? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And this would have been, I gather, 5 during the period 1993 to 1995? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And was it on more than one (1) 8 occasion -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- during that time interval of 11 several years? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And including before the occupiers 14 moved into the built-up area and after? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, you indicated that you and I 17 believe you indicated that you knew were advised by 18 someone from the OPP that the persons who were in the 19 Army Camp intended to occupy Ipperwash Park and you 20 learned that, I believe a week or two (2) before they 21 actually did occupy it? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And who from the OPP gave you that 24 information, do you recall, sir? 25 A: I don't rightly recall. It could

1 have been from the liaison officer, which was Sgt. 2 Hudson. Also, there was continuous updates or 3 memorandums; reports of any changes within the status of 4 the military camp. It would be like zone alerts that 5 would go out from the OPP and we usually got those types 6 of alerts -- 7 Q: And your -- 8 A: -- updating all police officers. 9 Q: And your understanding was that -- if 10 that had occurred, that the discussions were such as to 11 imply that if the occupation of the Park did occur, it 12 would not be resisted -- 13 A: No. 14 Q: -- is that correct? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: Similar to, as we've heard about the 17 occupation of the Army Camp was not resisted by the 18 Military and the -- it was your understanding that there 19 would be a similar lack of resistance by the OPP and 20 other forces to any take over of the Park; is that 21 correct? 22 A: Well, I don't know about the -- the 23 OPP's, like, higher echelon, the people that do make the 24 decisions, but I know by constables, there wasn't a 25 concern.

1 Q: I see. And when you got the 2 indication that there might be a take over of the Park, 3 it was coupled with the information that that would not 4 occur until the Park closed on Labour Day; is that right? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: And that's one of the things that 7 would have given you and other officers comfort, that it 8 would not be a dangerous or violent occupation? 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: Now, you indicated that Chief Tom 11 Bressette was pretty upset about the occupation of the 12 Park, particularly? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And that you spoke to him about it 15 directly? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And do you recall what he said, as 18 accurately as you can recall, this many years later, sir? 19 A: Somewhere on the lines that these 20 people were lawbreakers, they were criminals, we will -- 21 we don't support that type of behaviour and we will not 22 and along those lines. 23 Q: I see. And do you know if Chief 24 Bressette's views of that type were communicated to the 25 OPP?

1 A: I'm not sure. 2 Q: When you told you that, was that in 3 your role as a Kettle Point officer, that he was 4 instructing -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- you of his view? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And did he expect you then to 9 communicate that to the OPP? 10 A: I don't believe so. 11 Q: I see. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: Now, you mentioned yesterday that 16 there was a pressure coming by, I guess, from the 17 cottagers and members of the Government with respect to 18 the occupation. 19 Did you learn before September 6th, 20 September 6th being the day that -- 21 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Excuse me, Mr. 22 Rosenthal. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sorry? 24 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Is that a quote 25 directly from -- from the transcripts?

1 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 2 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Okay. Thank you. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 5 Q: I didn't read exactly the transcript, 6 I paraphrased the transcript, the quote from the 7 transcript is: 8 "Then a lot of pressure started coming 9 by, I guess, the cottagers and members 10 of the government." 11 Your very evidence yesterday, sir. 12 Now, my question was going to be and still 13 is, the following: 14 September 6th was the day that Dudley 15 George was killed; did you learn about the existence of 16 this Government pressure prior to that day? 17 A: I may have, but I can't recall. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Just to try to refresh your memory 22 and if you don't recall then you don't recall, but what 23 you told us yesterday is that you were talking to some 24 members of the Ontario Provincial Police and they looked 25 at is as a political situation that they wouldn't have to

1 really deal with, consistent to what we, as you indicated 2 before, that they were going to acquiesce in this, right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: But then -- and then you said: 5 "And then a lot of pressure started 6 coming on, I guess, the cottagers and 7 members of the Government." 8 So, I would -- 9 A: I -- 10 Q: -- ask you to turn your mind back and 11 isn't -- wasn't it the case, in fact, sir, that the 12 Provincial Police were going to be acquiescing in this 13 occupation of the Park, but then there was building 14 pressure upon them from cottagers and the Government and 15 you were aware of that at the time, before Dudley George 16 was killed? 17 A: No, that would have been after. 18 Q: Sorry? 19 A: that would have been -- 20 Q: That was -- you were aware after? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: I see. When did you first become 23 aware of it? 24 A: The first night, I believe it was the 25 8th, it may have been -- it might have been the 7th.

1 There was a meeting in Grand Bend with Chief 2 Superintendent Coles and a number of chiefs and that's 3 where I learned that there was starting to be building 4 pressure from the cottagers in regards to the Provincial 5 Park. 6 And also that these people had been 7 evacuated from their homes or their cottages and they 8 wanted them protected. 9 Q: I see. So -- sorry, Superintendent, 10 was it -- Coles? 11 A: Chief Superintendent Coles. 12 Q: Coles -- indicated at the Grand Bend 13 meeting that there was pressure from cottagers? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And did he also refer to pressure 16 from the Government at that time? 17 A: He may have. I can't remember. 18 Q: At some point you learned about 19 pressure from the Government as well. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Around that time? 22 A: Yes, it was around that time. I'm 23 not sure what levels of Government he was speaking about. 24 Q: I see, yes. So, you -- was it from 25 Coles that you got that indication that there had been

1 some pressure from Government without being specific as 2 to what levels of Government? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: So -- and this was an indication that 5 at some time in the recent past as he was discussing it, 6 some time recently he had been aware of pressure from the 7 Government with respect to the occupation of the Park? 8 A: Yes. That's -- my understanding is 9 that the government wanted the people out of the Park. 10 Q: Yes. And you got that understanding 11 at that meeting in Grand Bend on September 8th or 12 whenever it was, around September 8th? 13 A: Yeah. And -- and there was probably 14 other meetings after that where I heard the same thing 15 again. 16 Q: I see. 17 A: But, that was one of the -- one of 18 the reasons why the chiefs set up this out of the 19 ordinary type of patrolling with a marked cruiser with 20 white flags and officers with no firearms. 21 The pressures were building, what I 22 understand to force the OPP back in and I understood that 23 to be coming from the cottage people and also some levels 24 of Government. 25 Q: I see. Now, would you characterize

1 that the meeting of September 8th as partially a 2 debriefing as to what had occurred up to then and then 3 and a discussion as to what should occur in the future? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Now, as we know, there was a quite 6 extraordinary and quite terrible event on September 6th 7 that ended with Mr. Dudley George being killed. And as 8 we know, at eleven o'clock at night, approximately, on 9 September 6th, a number of OPP officers marched, might be 10 characterized, towards the Provincial Park and marched up 11 to the fence and the sandy parking lot and so on. 12 During these debriefings, was there any 13 indication as to why the OPP had marched on the people at 14 eleven o'clock that night? 15 A: I -- I remember there was some 16 discussion in regards to a person being -- being on the 17 road and being attacked or being -- more or less people 18 that interfering with traffic on -- on the roadway is why 19 -- and it's what I understand is why the OPP marched onto 20 that area. 21 And my understanding was that they tried 22 to get the people back into the Park. 23 Q: Now we have had evidence that there 24 was an incident earlier involving Gerald George and you 25 probably afterward learned about that incident, sir?

1 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: Now, I would suggest to you that it 3 would have been apparent to you and to anybody else 4 attending a debriefing that the fact that someone might 5 have gotten attacked on a road earlier that evening would 6 not be any reasonable explanation for why officers would 7 march on the Park at eleven o'clock at night; isn't that 8 fair? 9 A: Yes, that would be fair, it's out of 10 the ordinary. 11 Q: And sir, so, did you not get some 12 indication that in addition to that having happened 13 earlier, the OPP felt this pressure from Government and 14 cottagers to do something about the occupation and that 15 was one (1) of the reasons they marched at eleven o'clock 16 at night? 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, my 18 Friend asked about when he learned about the cottagers 19 and the evidence was that he learned about it afterwards 20 at the meeting of September 8th? 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, that's 22 correct, sir, but my question is also a valid question in 23 my opinion. 24 I don't understand that as an objection to 25 the question. It is a fact that he said that and I'm

1 asking, if I may, with respect to the debriefing, since 2 the one (1) explanation, you agree -- you agreed was 3 fairly put by me not to be satisfactory, was it not also 4 the case that he learned that one (1) of the aspects of 5 the OPP going in at eleven o'clock at night was pressure 6 that they felt from cottagers and Government officials? 7 He may say, yes; he may say, no. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 9 not sure he knows that. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And he may say he 11 doesn't know, but he should be answered -- allowed to 12 answer, that's all. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. I'm 14 not sure that that's a fair question, Mr. Rosenthal. 15 Yes, Mr. Scullion? 16 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I think that part of 17 those -- that question's already been asked. He's 18 indicated -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, part of 20 it has. Part of it -- 21 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- what he knew. 22 And I suspect some of what's going on here is, he's 23 asking him to speculate and I'd ask that he not be asked 24 to speculate on -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes.

1 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- what was the -- 2 on the minds of the OPP during those meetings. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 4 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: He was simply in 5 attendance and Mr. Bressette was a police officer, he has 6 hopes of being a police officer again. I don't think 7 it's fair to ask him to be speculating -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No. 9 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- on those kinds 10 of things. 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- I don't want 12 to ask him to speculate, sir, and perhaps I -- if I may, 13 I'll rephrase the question to make that absolutely clear. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 16 Q: Sir, when you were at the debriefing 17 or in other meetings, if I may, sir? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 21 Q: -- or other meetings of a similar 22 type, either the Grand Bend meeting or other meetings 23 within a few days of September 6th or even subsequently, 24 with high ranking OPP officers, was there any indication 25 that one (1) of the reasons -- any indication given by

1 anyone speaking there, not what you thought, not 2 speculating -- any indication that one (1) of the factors 3 that led to the marching on the Park at eleven o'clock 4 that night was pressure that they felt from Government 5 sources to do something about the situation? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 7 that's a fair question. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, so do 9 I. Thank you. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 12 Q: And -- and now, sir, could you please 13 take your mind back and carefully think of -- and see if 14 there were any such indications that you heard? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: No, not prior to -- to September 6th. 19 I would say after, there may have been discussions that 20 there was pressure, but whether that directly affected 21 why the riot squad went to that corner that night, I do 22 not know. 23 Q: But, there was some discussion of 24 pressure from Government officials? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And can you recall anything about the 2 context then, of those discussions of pressure at such 3 meetings? 4 A: The Government wanted the people 5 removed from the Park and my understanding is, the 6 pressure was coming from the cottagers, also people that 7 used to camp in the -- in the area there and also levels 8 of Government. 9 Q: Now, it's true, is it not, that after 10 Dudley George was killed, all the OPP officers were in 11 agreement to not do anything to further inflame the 12 situation at that point in the days afterward; the whole 13 idea was to calm things, correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: So -- and nobody was saying at that 16 point, Get the people out of the Park, we just want to 17 cool things now and then we'll see in future what to do 18 in future, right? 19 A: Well, I think the OPP as well as 20 everyone else realized there was a very volatile 21 situation that there was a potential for extreme 22 violence -- 23 Q: Yes -- 24 A: -- in that whole situation. 25 Q: Yes, because of the anger that was

1 engendered by the killing of Dudley George -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So afterward, nobody was talking 4 about getting the people out of the Park. Everybody was 5 talking about let's see if we can just calm this 6 situation down and then we'll deal with the long term 7 later, right? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: So, if there was discussion about 10 Government pressure to get people out of the Park, that 11 would have been with respect to getting people out of the 12 Park on or before September 6th; isn't that fair to say? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: I believe it was after that, yes, 17 there was still pressure but the Ontario Provincial 18 Police was not going to respond to that. 19 Q: You learned about any pressure after 20 September 6th, sir; is that correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: You've told us that, you've been 23 clear about that, but I'm suggesting to you that the idea 24 of getting people out of the Park was abandoned -- 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he's

1 answered the question, Mr. Rosenthal. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 4 Q: -- after Dudley George was killed, by 5 everybody, because of concerns about just keeping the 6 situation from getting further inflamed, right? 7 That's correct, right, sir? You have to 8 say yes, not just nod -- 9 A: Yes, sir. 10 Q: -- sir. So, therefore, what I was 11 suggesting to you is that any indication of pressure to 12 get people out of the Park would have been to get them 13 out of the Park -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think, Mr. 15 Rosenthal, that he answered the question. He did say it 16 was after. You asked that -- 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- question 19 and he answered that. He answered that question -- 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: No -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that you 22 just asked. 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yeah, I understand, 24 sir, but the after could refer to either when he learned 25 about it or when -- or when -- what -- when the idea was

1 getting them out of the Park, and I'm suggesting to him-- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- and I believe 4 that the circumstances suggest that that is undoubtedly 5 the truth, but I -- but I want to get it from him that -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- he learned after 8 about any possible pressure, but the pressure to get out 9 of the Park applied to getting out of the Park prior to-- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You were 11 very precise -- 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- that's what I'm 13 trying to distinguish. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I know you 15 are. I think you were very precise in your question and 16 I think he answered it. I think he did. 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm not sure that 18 it was absolutely clear which the after referred to, sir, 19 and I should just like to clarify if I may. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, did 21 you have something you wanted to say, Ms. Hensel? 22 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Just that I 23 believe that Mr. Bressette had answered that question. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you have 25 something you want to add to this, Mr. Sulman? You're

1 standing on your feet. 2 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: Well, I am -- I 3 don't know whether -- why that mic won't work sometimes. 4 I've been looking at it for a couple of days now, but I 5 don't know whether it works. The question's been asked 6 and answered several times -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it 8 has. 9 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: -- and it's been 10 very clear and My Friend is trying to go back and 11 recreate the answer again. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 13 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: And it's been very 14 clear that the answer comes out of a meeting that is 15 sometimes subsequent -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 17 think -- 18 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: So I think -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- you're 20 very -- 21 MR. DOUGLAS SULMAN: -- that's the end of 22 the question -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, well-- 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Sir, may I reply 25 sir, please?

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think your 2 question was very precise -- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes but I -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And you were 5 very careful in the way you asked it and I believe -- 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that the 8 question that you asked was answered. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: With respect, sir, 10 I would like to probe this further if I may because, as 11 you can appreciate, it might be important evidence. 12 It's absolutely clear, of course, that 13 he's made it clear in respect of several answers that any 14 information he got along the lines that I'm asking about, 15 he got after September 6th in subsequent meetings. 16 But, I was probing, and I would 17 respectfully suggest fairly probing, given the context 18 and given -- given the situation, suggesting that the 19 pressure to get out of the Park must have been -- the 20 actual pressure must have been earlier because afterward 21 nobody was considering getting anyone out of the Park -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes -- 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- so there 24 wouldn't be any pressure from anybody afterwards. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that's

1 the question you asked. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I appreciate that, 3 sir, but I should like to -- I should like to pursue it a 4 little bit further and absolutely clarify it and if the 5 Witness said -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I believe 7 it's clear. You asked that question and you got an 8 answer. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But, given -- given 10 the -- the circumstances, sir, I -- I should be allowed 11 to pursue it, in my view, to try to get him to clarify it 12 further, but I'm in your hands, of course. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He said 14 after. I mean, that was his answer. I wrote it down. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You asked a 17 very precise question to elicit that very answer and 18 that's the answer you got; it was after. 19 I think the question's been asked and 20 answered sufficiently. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, I should like 22 to try and approach it from different angles but I'm in 23 obviously, it's up to you -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 25 think I --

1 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- to rule, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- I think 3 you've -- 4 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I think it's an 5 important matter and I should be allowed to pursue it 6 from some other angles and if -- and if -- and in cross- 7 examination one can pursue a question from -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- a couple of 10 different angles and if -- if in cross-examination one 11 can pursue a question from a couple of different angles 12 to try and get an answer and I should be allowed to do so 13 in my respectful submission. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's an 15 important issue and I believe that you were very careful 16 the way you asked the question and I think the question 17 has been asked and answered. 18 Mr. Scullion...? 19 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: If I may. I also 20 believe he's answered the question. He's only able to 21 speak from what he heard and what he knew at the meeting. 22 And I believe he's done that. Mr. Rosenthal was very 23 precise in his questioning and he went around the issue a 24 couple of times. 25 And I appreciate what the issue is and how

1 Mr. Bressette may add to that -- the evidence regarding 2 that issue, but he's not able to. And what he said is 3 what happened at the meeting, what he heard at the 4 meeting where he understood that pressure was coming from 5 and the timeframe for that pressure from that meeting and 6 that's all he can speak to. 7 And I'd suggest that this has been gone 8 around a couple of times, I find myself in a different 9 position here objecting to this line of questioning where 10 it may be interesting from another witness but not from 11 Mr. Bressette. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 13 you're right, Mr. Scullion. I think we've had enough on 14 this point. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And so I'll move 16 on, Mr. Commissioner. Thank you. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 19 Q: Now, sir, you told us that the Kettle 20 Point police were not involved in the operation of moving 21 on the Park at eleven o'clock at night on September 6th; 22 isn't that correct? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: Now, do you agree with me, sir, that 25 given the relationship that you've described between

1 Kettle Point police officers and the people involved, the 2 occupiers, the Stoney Point people and the relationship 3 that you've described in particular, that if there were 4 any concerns that had to be dealt with about what the 5 occupiers might do at eleven o'clock at night on 6 September 6th, 1995 and approached by Kettle Point police 7 officers to find out the situation and to deal with the 8 situation might have resulted in a much less tragic 9 outcome; is that not fair? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Sorry? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yes. 14 A: Yes, sir. 15 Q: I mean you would have gone and talked 16 to the people and investigated whatever the concerns the 17 OPP might have had, right? 18 A: Yes, sir. 19 Q: They were concerned about cottages or 20 somebody getting beaten up on a road, you would have 21 checked it out, right? 22 A: Yes, sir. 23 Q: Now, there's a document, sir, that 24 you have is Document 2 in your brief and that has now 25 been made Exhibit P-217; do you have that in front of

1 you, sir? 2 A: What's the document again, sir? 3 Q: It's -- I believe it's at Tab 2 of 4 your book of documents. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: It's a meeting of September 9th, 7 1995. You were asked about this by Ms. Hensel? 8 A: Yes, sir. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Can you give the 10 Inquiry document number again. 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Okay. Yes, thank 12 you, I'll give the Inquiry Document Number again. It's 13 in Volume XI. May I suggest to all of us that we give 14 the volume numbers as well as the Inquiry Document Number 15 as somebody who sits there scrambling for them sometimes. 16 So, it's Volume XI and Document Number 17 200-2380, the minutes of a meeting of Saturday, 9, 18 September 1995. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL. 21 Q: Do you have that in front of you, 22 sir? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: Thank you. I should just like to ask 25 you about a couple of the matters here that were

1 discussed evidently at that meeting. About almost a half 2 way down, there's a bullet point: 3 "St. John's trailer doesn't look legit 4 and has them concerned." 5 Do you see that, sir? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: By the way, do you know who took the 8 minutes of this meeting? 9 A: I'm not sure, sir. 10 Q: So, it says: 11 "St. John's trailer doesn't look legit 12 and has them concerned." 13 Was that a concern that was shared by 14 everybody at the meeting as far as you understood their 15 expressions at the meeting? 16 A: Yes, sir. 17 Q: We've heard evidence that there was a 18 trailer that looked like a St. John's ambulance that was 19 in the Department of Natural Resources parking lot down 20 East Parkway Drive and had been used as a command post by 21 the OPP on the evening of September 6th. 22 Is that the trailer that's being referred 23 to here, sir? 24 A: Yes, sir. 25 Q: And am I correct in understanding

81
  1  that the concerns of the people meeting on September 9th
  2  would be that it's inappropriate to use an ambulance, or
  3  what looks like an ambulance, as part of a policing
  4  operation rather than a first aid vehicle, correct?
  5                 A:   Yes, sir.
  6                 Q:   And people at the meeting would have
  7  already known, for example, that Dudley George was not
  8  translated -- transferred to hospital by ambulance, but
  9  was taken in his brother Pierre's car, right?
 10                 A:   Yes, sir.
 11                 Q:   And so, would people at that meeting
 12  have expressed and -- and did you, at that time, have a
 13  concern that there wasn't an ambulance available for
 14  Dudley George, it appeared, but there was this vehicle
 15  that looked like an ambulance that was being used by the
 16  police for part of their operation?  Was that a concern?
 17                 A:   Yes, it was.
 18                 Q:   Now, a few bullet points further
 19  down, there's a -- a statement:
 20                   "Warriors do not want public to know
 21                   they are unarmed as it is feared the
 22                   public may provoke an attack against
 23                   the First Nations occupiers."
 24                 Was that a sentiment that was expressed at
 25  that meeting, sir?

1 A: No, sir, I don't believe that was. 2 It was very clear that the peacekeepers were unarmed and 3 they didn't care who knew that. 4 Q: I see. But, it was certainly clear 5 that they were unarmed? 6 A: Yes, sir. 7 Q: Was there some fear about other 8 members of the public, perhaps cottagers, who had 9 misunderstood the situation coming and attacking people? 10 A: That was a great fear of everybody 11 involved. 12 Q: Yes. But, even given that fear, it 13 was agreed by the warriors and everyone else, no guns 14 would be used? 15 A: Yes, sir. 16 Q: And the -- a few bullet points down, 17 it says: 18 "Occupiers were warned by warriors 19 [quote] 'no gunfire, no guns 20 whatsoever.'" 21 Was that correct, sir? 22 A: I don't know who wrote all this 23 warrior stuff -- 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: -- but never has anybody every been

1 introduced to me as being a warrior. 2 Q: I see. 3 A: There were the Oneida Peacekeepers; 4 That's how they were introduced to me. And I don't know 5 who wrote all this stuff about warriors, but that was 6 never brought to me at this particular time. 7 Q: I see. Okay. But, in any event, I 8 would put it to you that all parties at this meeting were 9 agreed that in spite of the terrible killing of Dudley 10 George, they were going to remain, and try to convince 11 everyone else to remain, peaceful? 12 A: Yes, sir. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Now, you told us about -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 18 going to be much longer, Mr. Rosenthal? You indicated 19 twenty (20) minutes, you've been -- I just want to know 20 if we should take a break because we've been going for 21 almost two (2) hours. If you're almost finished, I'd 22 like you to finish. If you're not, then we'll take a 23 break. 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I would suggest we 25 take a break and I may presently surprise you as to how

1 short I am afterwards. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 Let's take a morning break. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 5 for fifteen (15) minutes. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 10:56 a.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 11:10 a.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed. Please be seated. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, Mr. 16 Rosenthal...? 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. Mr. 18 Commissioner, I only realized there when I was told 19 during the break that you apparently were under a 20 misapprehension that I had said twenty (20) minutes for 21 my examination, I had said an hour, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I realize 23 that. I am sorry, I thought you said twenty (20) 24 minutes. 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: So, I guess I --

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I was 2 informed in the break that you had -- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, sir, I 4 don't want to -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- offend you in 7 that or any other way. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're well 9 within your range. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: But, I -- and I 11 will constantly surprise you at being -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- significantly 14 less than an hour, I believe. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 17 Q: Sir, you told us about this unusual 18 break in, in a cottage where the person who broke in 19 evidently left a number of vodka bottles full of vodka, 20 right? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: That's a rather unusual break in, as 23 you'd described. Now, you said that cottage was at the 24 end of Army Camp Road near the beach; is that correct? 25 A: Yes, sir.

1 Q: Now, behind you, sir, there's a -- a 2 map that's Exhibit P-23 that shows that area, I believe, 3 could you look around and see if you could tell us 4 approximately where that is on that map, that cottage? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Do you understand what that map 9 depicts, sir? There's East Parkway Drive going off to 10 the left on the map and the -- what's been called the 11 sandy parking lot is to the right of that and the lake is 12 to the north up -- up on the map. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: Yes, it would have been a cottage up 17 in this area here. 18 Q: I see, yes. So you're pointing -- 19 sorry, you have to talk into the microphone, because it 20 gets recorded for the transcript, so, well you indicated 21 -- you said there's a cottage right here and you pointed; 22 is that correct, sir? 23 A: Yes, sir. 24 Q: And -- and you pointed then to -- 25 just, sorry --

1 A: It's at the very north of Parkway 2 Drive. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 7 Bressette, there's a microphone there that you can hold 8 in your hand. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 11 Q: Thank you. Mr. Millar has informed 12 that there's another map that they have at their disposal 13 and he's just projecting it on the screen that might also 14 assist, but can you locate it on that map, sir? 15 There's Army Camp Road, yes, and East 16 Parkway Drive -- 17 A: Right at the very north -- right at 18 the very -- right at the very north end of -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it 20 working? 21 THE WITNESS: -- Army Camp Road. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 25 Q: So, Army Camp Road really sort of

1 bends into East Parkway Drive but, as the P-23 shows us, 2 but if you were to continue Army Camp Road rather than 3 bending you would come to that cottage; is that fair to 4 say? 5 A: Yes. Yes, sir. 6 Q: And it would -- so, I think that 7 describes it adequately, thank you. 8 Now, cottage break-ins is a problem that 9 police deal with all over Ontario; isn't that true? 10 A: Yes, sir. 11 Q: And so it's a -- unfortunately a 12 quite common occurrence of cottage break-ins -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- because cottages are not occupied 15 much of the time and people, maybe often teenagers, feel 16 they can go in and take things, right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: So, in the context of what happened 19 in Stoney Point and the concerns of cottagers afterward, 20 I gather that you and your officers were investigating 21 these alleged break-ins in order to determine the extent 22 of the problem, right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: and you concluded that, in fact, 25 there was not a particularly extraordinary number of

1 break-ins around this time or anything, right? 2 A: No, sir, there was not. 3 Q: There was not? So any -- any 4 allegations that people had been running wild as far as 5 break-ins were not accurate allegations? 6 A: That's true. 7 Q: Thank you very much, Mr. Bressette. 8 Mr. Commissioner, thank you. I told you 9 you'd be pleasantly surprised. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I hope I 11 didn't cut you short. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: You -- you did at 13 one (1) point, but that was for a different reason. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 15 Mr. Rosenthal. 16 I believe that Mr. George has some 17 questions now that he hadn't -- 18 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: I'd indicated I 19 might, but I'm going to pass. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're going 21 to pass. 22 Mr. Eyolfson...? 23 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: Thank you. Good 24 morning Mr. Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good

1 morning. 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: 4