1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 22nd, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )
  4  Donald Worme, Q.C. )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  Jodie-Lynn Waddilove)   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein )            The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )  (np)      George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    ) (np)       (Student-at-law)
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )   (np)       Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stoney
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Sue Freeborn     )   (np)
 25  Michelle Pong    )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )              Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 11  
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  
 15  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 16  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 17  
 18  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 19  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 20  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 21  Peter West         ) (np)
 22  Nagai On Young     )  (np)
 23  
 24  
 25

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
  3  Karen Jones      )              Police Association &
  4  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
  5  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
  6  Annie Leeks      )   (np)
  7  
  8  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  9  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
 10  Julian Roy       )   (np)
 11  
 12  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
 13  Robert Ash, Q.C.  )   (np)       Coroner
 14  
 15  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 16  Matthew Horner   )
 17  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 18  
 19  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 20  Craig Mills      )
 21  Megan Mackey     )   (np)
 22  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 23  Anna Perschy     )
 24  Melissa Panjer   )   (np)
 25  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 7 CARL OTTO TOLSMO, Resumed 8 9 Continued Cross-Examination 10 by Ms. Karen Jones 9 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 166 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Douglas Sulman 210 13 Cross-Examination by Ms. Janet Clermont 235 14 Re-Direct Examination by Ms. Susan Vella 238 15 16 17 18 Certificate of Transcript 249 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No 3 P-207 Document 4000322 London Free Press 4 article "Native Tents Near Grenade 5 Range" May 18/'93 30 6 P-208 Document 200665 May 20/'93 Fax from 7 J.F. Carson, Inspector OPP to C.J. 8 Coles, Chief Supt. OPP re First Nations 9 Occupation CFB Ipperwash, Ipperwash 10 Prov. Park, Chronology of Kettle and 11 Stony Point Bands 33 12 P-209 Document No. 9000030 Letter to Chiefs 13 of Ontario, Attn: Gord Peters From 14 Ron C. George re: Agreement of working 15 relationships Kettle point/Stoney 16 Point July 27/'93 48 17 P-210 Document No. 9000038, Letter to Chief 18 Tom Bressette, Kettle Point First 19 Nation from Ron C. Orange re Stoney 20 Point Land Claim, September 21/'93 57 21 P-211 Document No. 1003690 Sarnia Observer 22 article "Stoney Point Natives Brave 23 Cold Waiting For Talks" Jan. 20/'94 80 24 25

1 EXHIBIT LIST (Cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-212 Document No. 9000115 May 12/'94 4 Letter from Audrey D. Doerr, 5 Regional Director General to 6 Anthony Ross re Stoney Point IR 7 No. 43 and document No. 9000117 8 May 25/'94 Mr. Anthony Ross 9 letter to Chief Carl George 91 10 P-213 Document No.s 2001825 and 2001826 11 London Free Press article 12 "Campers, Cottagers Harassed" 13 May 24/'94 111 14 P-214 Document No. 1009310 letter to 15 Hon. Howard Hampton MP from 16 Maynard T. George March 09/'93 17 re: Notice to Vacate, Ipperwash 18 Provincial Park. 174 19 P-215 Document 1007820 Letter from Howard 20 Hampton signed by Ron Baldwin June 21 24/'93 in response to Maynard T. 22 George March 09/'93 Letter 179 23 24 25

1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-216 Document No. 1007625 June 01/'93 4 confidential meeting notes of Inter- 5 Ministerial officials committee on 6 Aboriginal Emergencies Working 7 Group Meeting re: Camp Ipperwash 8 and Ipperwash Provincial Park on 9 May 25/'93, pages 16 and 17. 190 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:01 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MR. CARL OTTO TOLSMA: Good morning. 9 10 CARL OTTO TOLSMA, Resumed 11 12 CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 13 Q: Good morning, Mr. Tolsma. 14 A: Good morning. 15 Q: Mr. Tolsma, I had asked you a number 16 of questions yesterday and it was late in the day and I 17 just want to make sure that have a fair chance to think 18 and answer the questions and I know it's hard to do that 19 sometimes when you're tired. 20 I don't want to revisit everything I did 21 but I just want to make sure that we have your evidence 22 clear on a few points -- 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: -- if that's okay with you. And 25 specifically I had asked you yesterday afternoon about

1 five (5) decisions that had to be made before land could 2 be -- the land could be returned and by the lands, you 3 know, it could include the base and the Park or even 4 other things. 5 And I think we agreed on those five (5) 6 decisions and one was what land was to be returned, the 7 second was who negotiated for it, the third was who got 8 it, the fourth was who got compensation and the fifth 9 was, who would clean it up. 10 And you gave some answers to those 11 questions but I wanted to give you a fair chance to make 12 sure that your evidence is accurate. And so my question 13 really was, back in 1993, that is before you and others 14 started the occupation of the area of the base, I wanted 15 to make sure we were clear about what your views were on 16 those questions and it may be the same as yesterday or it 17 may be different and if it's different I wouldn't fuss 18 because it was certainly late in the day. 19 So in terms of what land was to be 20 returned, I think your evidence yesterday was it was the 21 land that included the base, Ipperwash Park and the 22 cottage area to the east. 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: Is that still right? And in terms of 25 who would negotiate for the return of that land, your

1 evidence yesterday was that it would be the Kettle and 2 Stony Point Band. 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: Okay. And just so I'm clear, only 5 the Kettle and Stony Point Band? 6 A: Yes. Because they're the elected 7 body. 8 Q: Okay. And in terms of the question 9 who would get the land, your answer yesterday was the 10 Kettle and Stony Point Band -- 11 A: Right. 12 Q: -- and just that Band. 13 A: Well, there's only one (1) band 14 anyway. 15 Q: Okay. And in terms of who gets 16 compensation, your answer yesterday was the Kettle and 17 Stony Point Band. 18 A: Yes. And from there they distribute 19 it to whoever needs it. 20 Q: As -- as they see fit? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And in terms of who cleans it 23 up, your answer was, I believe the Federal Government had 24 to clean it up. 25 A: Yes. They're -- they have to get a -

1 - do an environmental study first. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: And then hire an outfit to clean it 4 up. 5 Q: And I had asked you some questions 6 yesterday about the $2 1/2 million dollars that had been 7 provided by the Federal Government to the Kettle and 8 Stony Point Band in 1980. 9 And do I take it from the answers to your 10 questions that you, personally, didn't have concerns 11 about how that money was distributed or did you? 12 A: Oh, I had concerns, but there's 13 nothing I could do about it. 14 Q: Okay. Can -- what -- what were your 15 concerns about that distribution? 16 A: That everybody got equal amount. 17 Q: Okay. And by that do you mean that 18 every member of the Kettle and Stony Point Band ought to 19 have gotten an equal amount? 20 A: Yes, everybody in the Kettle and 21 Stony Point Band. 22 Q: Okay. And I wanted to follow up on 23 one (1) other point, you've talked to us on a few days 24 now about a map that Maynard T. George had that showed 25 the location of apparently burial grounds in the Park?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I'd asked you some questions 3 yesterday about where that might be. I think you have 4 told us that that and perhaps other information was 5 provided to the Kettle and Stony Point Band by you or 6 would be at Kettle and Stony Point Band? 7 A: Well, all the records I had, I turned 8 them over to the Kettle and Stony Point Band Office. 9 Q: Okay. When -- when did you that, Mr. 10 George? Oh, sorry, Mr. Tolsma, I'm really sorry. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I'm not sure. It had to be in '95. 15 Q: Okay. Was that after you had left or 16 detached yourself from the situation? 17 A: Yes, after I'd left. 18 Q: Left the Base? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And did you, at the time, have 21 any discussions with the people who were at -- the 22 occupiers who were at the Base of -- those documents and 23 where they should stay and who should have them? 24 A: No. 25 Q: No? That was something that you did

1 unilaterally? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And you said on your first day 4 of evidence that there was a group of you who had had 5 discussions back in 1993 about moving onto the Base and I 6 think you gave some names Robert and Ron George, Maynard 7 T. George, Janet Cloud and Marlene Cloud. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Can you remember today whether any 10 others were involved in those discussions? 11 A: Well, there probably was. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: I can't -- I'd have to look at the 14 papers to -- right off the top of my head I can't, no. 15 Q: Okay. And can you tell us whether 16 your views about the land -- and that's the land that 17 you've described as the base of the Park in the east area 18 where the cottages are -- did you discuss your views with 19 that group of people prior to moving on to -- 20 A: No. 21 Q: No? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. Do you know whether or not, 24 through your discussions, those people shared your view 25 about the answers to the five (5) questions?

15
  1                 A:   No.
  2                 Q:   You don't know or they didn't share?
  3                 A:   They didn't share at that time.
  4                 Q:   They didn't share your views?
  5                 A:   No, we were just talking about going
  6  on the land.
  7                 Q:   Okay.
  8                 A:   There was no evidence of the land
  9  being returned at that point.
 10                 Q:   Okay.
 11                 A:   So, there was no use talking about
 12  it.    
 13                 Q:   Okay. I guess specifically, did --
 14  did the -- did -- if you know, did the others share your
 15  view about any return of the land as being a return to
 16  Kettle and Stony Point Band?
 17                 A:   Yes.
 18                 Q:   They knew that?
 19                 A:   Yes.
 20                 Q:   Okay.  And so far as you knew, did
 21  they agree with that?
 22                 A:   Yes.
 23                 Q:   And in terms of a negotiation, your
 24  view about the proper negotiator being Kettle and Stony
 25  Point Band, do you know, if you know, whether those

1 others agreed with that? 2 A: Well they wanted to -- after a while 3 they wanted to be part of it. 4 Q: Okay. But, prior to 19 -- prior to 5 your moving onto the land? 6 A: No. We never talked about anything 7 like that prior to the -- 8 Q: Okay. What were your discussions 9 about then prior to moving onto the land? 10 A: Just how we were going to do and we 11 weren't going to leave. 12 Q: Okay. And you weren't going to leave 13 until when? 14 A: Until something happened. The land 15 was going to be returned or whatever happens. 16 Q: Okay. And was it your view prior to 17 moving on the land in May of 1993, that you and the 18 others who were moving onto the land were doing so as 19 part of Kettle and Stony Point Band? Or did you see 20 yourselves as being something different than that? 21 A: We're just doing that on our own. 22 Q: On your own? 23 A: We didn't see ourselves any different 24 and we weren't doing it as part of Kettle and Stony 25 Point, we were just doing this on our own.

1 Q: Okay. And I think you've told us 2 that the Kettle and Stony Point Band didn't know about 3 your intentions to move onto the land? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And you didn't have any discussions 6 with anyone at that time? 7 A: No. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Okay. One (1) of the documents 12 that's been provided by Commission Counsel is a document 13 that's entitled, Stoney Point First Nation, and it's 14 dated May 6th, 1993. And for the assistance of Counsel 15 it is 100-34-93. And I think this was referred to 16 yesterday. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 21 Exhibit 195? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MS. KAREN JONES: I believe, Mr.

1 Commissioner, it is Exhibit 195. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry? 3 MS. KAREN JONES: I understand from Ms. 4 Vella it may be Exhibit 195. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's got a 6 different inquiry number. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: One of the problems of 8 course, Mr. Commissioner, is because we have many 9 duplicate documents I think. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Duplicate 11 system. I think the inquiry number is 9000-014. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That's right. It is 13 produced twice in the document. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 18 Q: And this might be a little awkward, 19 Mr. Tolsma but hopefully we can have a look see at it. I 20 wanted to ask you some questions about paragraph 9 in 21 that notice. 22 First of all actually, paragraph 8, that 23 notice, which when you looked at you confirmed was one 24 that you had signed and Maynard T. George had signed, it 25 says:

1 "We are video recording our actions and 2 taking these precautions to ensure 3 accurate attempts are made to all 4 concerned and for the safety of all 5 Parties." 6 Were you, in fact, video recording your 7 actions at the time, that is, in or around May 6th, 1993? 8 A: Most of them, yes. 9 Q: Okay. And do you -- who was doing 10 the video recordings? 11 A: Mainly Maynard T. 12 Q: Okay. And do you know where those 13 video recordings are? 14 A: I don't. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: He -- he probably still has them or I 17 wouldn't have the faintest idea. 18 Q: Okay. Do you -- and maybe you don't 19 know, but if you do, perhaps you can tell us what all 20 Maynard T. recorded in his video recordings? 21 A: I don't know. He -- he recorded 22 quite a bit. He recorded everything. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: At least he tried. 25 Q: Okay. So, would that include your

1 entrance onto the land? 2 A: He probably did. 3 Q: Okay. And I understand as part of 4 that entrance you would have cut a lock or cut some part 5 of the gate to get entrance. Would that have been 6 recorded? 7 A: Later on. 8 Q: Later on? Yeah. Would that have 9 been recorded by Maynard T. George, do you know? 10 A: I -- I couldn't say. 11 Q: Okay. And then I want to take you to 12 paragraph 9 which says: 13 "We are not hindering the elected 14 Kettle Point Council or people from 15 joining us, but they do not represent 16 us in any way, shape or form." 17 And does that paragraph reflect your view 18 fairly about the relationship between your group that had 19 gone onto the Base and the elected Kettle Point Council? 20 A: Maynard T., he wrote a lot of these 21 documents up and he worded it like that, but I -- I just 22 went along with it. When they say they don't represent 23 us in any way -- 24 Q: Yes? 25 A: -- that's the way he wrote it out.

1 Q: Sure, but my question to you was, did 2 that reflect your view, you being one (1) of the 3 signatories to that document? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: That -- that did reflect your view? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: That Kettle Point Council did not 8 represent you in any way, shape or form? 9 A: Oh, they represented me, but like I 10 said, I had to just play along with the game. 11 Q: Okay. And -- and what was the game? 12 A: I didn't want anybody to know what, 13 actually, I was doing and I didn't -- like I said, I 14 didn't want no other group interfering because if you get 15 too many in there it's going to mess things up. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: And a lot of problems are going to 18 start before it even happens. 19 Q: Okay. And when you say you didn't 20 want anyone to know what you are doing, does that mean 21 what you, personally, were doing? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: What you personally intended? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: And did that mean, then, that you

1 would not have told the other people who entered with 2 you, which I'm -- for example, Maynard T. George, Janet 3 Cloud, Marlene Cloud, Robert and Ron George, what your 4 true intentions were? 5 A: The majority of it, yes. 6 Q: Pardon me? 7 A: The majority of it, yes, because when 8 I went in everybody agreed that they would be peaceful. 9 Q: Sure. 10 A: And later on everybody started saying 11 that, Well, they don't -- Kettle and Stony Point don't 12 represent us. That wasn't my view. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: That wasn't what I had intended but-- 15 Q: Right. 16 A: -- it -- and after a while they 17 started saying that we wanted to be a separate band. 18 Okay, I know you're going to ask this question later, so 19 I might as well do it all at once. 20 Q: Sure. 21 A: When -- to me this -- this helped me 22 out quite a bit because -- 23 Q: What? Sorry, what helped you out 24 quite a bit? 25 A: When they say, Well, Kettle Point

1 don't represent us, we want to be a separate band. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: Okay, the Government hears this and 4 they're -- they're going to take notice. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: And they take a lot of notice, so I 7 just kept quiet because it -- it helps me out because 8 they're there with me and they're pretty well -- we're 9 all working together, the Government sees it and if they 10 say, Well, these people want to be a separate band, 11 they're going to take notice and they're going to start 12 complaining, they're going to start talking. At least 13 they're talking; it got them talking. So, what I had 14 planned, it did work. 15 Q: Okay. I guess -- I guess my question 16 to you, though, is given the documents that we've seen 17 to-date and I'll take you to some more, it appears as 18 though in public the representations that you were making 19 was -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- that the group that was occupying 22 the base wanted to be a separate and distinct Band. Is 23 that -- 24 A: Yes, they did after a while, yes. 25 Q: Okay, and we'll go through some

24
  1  documents later as well and we've seen some already but
  2  it appears that from your public representations that you
  3  were putting forward the position that the group that had
  4  occupied the base, the Stoney Point First Nation --
  5                 A:   Yes. 
  6                 Q:   -- as you were calling it, was
  7  separate and different and should be separate and apart
  8  from the Kettle Point Council and Band.
  9                 A:   The land base was separate. 
 10  Different?  Well, I guess the name would be different.
 11                 Q:   Sure.  But in terms of the five (5)
 12  questions that we went though earlier --
 13                 A:   Yes.  
 14                 Q:   -- it appears and -- and as I say,
 15  we've looked at some documents and we'll look at some
 16  more as we go along, that the public position that you
 17  were putting forward at least after May 6th, or on May
 18  6th, 1993 and after was that the land was land that
 19  belonged to the Stoney Point First Nation as opposed to
 20  the Kettle Point Council and Band.
 21                 A:   The land belonged to the Kettle and
 22  Stony Point First Nation.
 23                 Q:   Sure.
 24                 A:   I know what -- I know what you're
 25  saying.  I know the letters say that.

1 Q: Sure. 2 A: But, like I said, I -- I -- I signed 3 them, yes. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And it worked out good for me. 6 Q: Sure, okay. 7 A: And I got attention, so that's what I 8 wanted. 9 Q: Okay. So, your public 10 representations were that the Stoney Point First Nation 11 should be separate and apart, a different band, from the 12 Kettle and Stony Point Band -- 13 A: I signed papers to that -- 14 Q: Yeah -- 15 A: Yes, I did -- 16 Q: And that -- 17 A: -- but that's not what I had 18 intended. 19 Q: No, no, no, no. I understand that. 20 And your -- the presentation that you were making to the 21 public -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- in your memorandums and letters to 24 whom it may concern and letters to -- 25 A: That's --

26
  1                 Q:   -- a variety of people --
  2                 A:   That's -- what they seen, yes.
  3                 Q:   Right, were that the land should be
  4  returned to the Stoney Point First Nation group and not
  5  the Kettle and Stony Point Band.
  6                 A:   I probably signed a paper like that,
  7  yes.
  8                 Q:   Yeah.
  9                 A:   And, so that's your public
 10  presentation --
 11                 A:   Yes. 
 12                 Q:   You've told us that your personal
 13  view was different --
 14                 A:   Yes. 
 15                 Q:   And the other question I had is, and
 16  if you don't know that's fine, whether or not you
 17  communicated to the other people who were occupying the
 18  land that your personal view was different than your
 19  public representations?
 20                 A:   No.  
 21                 Q:   No, okay.  And did you communicate to
 22  Tom Bressette that your personal view was other and
 23  different than your public representations?
 24                 A:   No.  
 25                 Q:   Okay.  And did you communicate to the

1 Kettle and Stony Point Band council -- 2 A: No. 3 Q: -- in any way that your personal view 4 was different? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Okay. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: The next document I wanted to take 11 you to, Mr. Tolsma, is the document that in the 12 Commission's database is 4000322 and it is a press 13 release that's entitled Native Tents near Grenade Range. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: Yeah. And you'll see that that is a 18 newspaper article by John Iverson (phonetic) for the 19 London Free Press. And if we turn to the second page of 20 that document and we looked at the -- it looks -- it's 21 the paragraph that's close to the bottom of what we see 22 there. It says: 23 "The Stoney Point Band will formalize 24 their breakaway from the Kettle and 25 Stony Point Band this month by holding

1 elections on May 27th to elect a chief 2 and council." 3 And if we go down to the next paragraph it 4 says: 5 "The Band held a membership drive 6 Monday and nominations will be accepted 7 on May 24th. Only those who declare 8 themselves Stoney Point and sign a 9 declaration of independence from the 10 Kettle and Stony Point Band, will be 11 eligible to vote in the election. 12 The only declared candidate for chief 13 at this point is Carl George." 14 And I wanted to take you through a couple 15 of the points there and that is whether or not you agree 16 that in May of 2000-- sorry, 1993, there was an attempt 17 by the group who was on the base to formalize their 18 breakaway from the Kettle and Stony Point Band. 19 A: If there was any papers drawn up to 20 that I can't remember. 21 Q: You don't recall? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Okay. Do you recall there being 24 election held in May of 2000 -- 1993? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And you were a candidate for chief? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And do you agree with what's 4 there that the Band held a membership drive and 5 nominations were to be accepted and only those who 6 declare themselves Stoney Point and sign a declaration of 7 independence from the Kettle and Stony Point Band will be 8 eligible to vote, was in fact there a membership drive 9 that you recall? 10 A: Maynard T. drew up a membership of 11 the people that lived and the heirs that lived at Stoney 12 Point, yes. 13 Q: Okay. And was there a declaration 14 that people were expected to agree to that they were 15 Stoney Point and independent from the Kettle and Stony 16 Point Band? 17 A: I can't recall if there was any paper 18 signed, no. 19 Q: Okay. Was there an expectation that 20 you knew about that the people who would be voting in the 21 May 1993 election would be those who were accepting that 22 they were Stoney Point -- Stoney Point Band and not 23 Kettle and Stony Point Band? 24 A: There could have. I can't recall 25 that part.

1 Q: Okay. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 3 wonder if we could have this article be made the next 4 exhibit? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-207. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 207. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-207: Document 4000322 London Free 9 Press article "Native Tents 10 Near Grenade Range" May 11 18/'93 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 14 Q: The next document that I wanted to 15 take you to, Mr. George -- sorry, Mr. Tolsma I apologize, 16 I'm sorry, is a document and I think you'll see it in the 17 volume in front of you at Tab 11. And for the assistance 18 of Counsel, it's Inquiry Document 2000665 and it's a 19 letter from John Carson to the OPP Superintendent dated 20 May 20th, 1993. 21 And what I wanted to turn your attention 22 to, Mr. Tolsma, is if you turn over to the page that's 23 entitled, Chronology of Events, do you see that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And you'll see at the bottom of that

31
  1  page, the last paragraph and it's dated 1980, it says:
  2                   "The issues has become a situation of
  3                   who should be eligible to negotiate and
  4                   receive the return of the Military
  5                   Base.  There has been an ongoing
  6                   disagreement of this issue between the
  7                   elected Band and the unofficial Stoney
  8                   Point Band."
  9                 In your view as of May 20th of 1993, was
 10  that an accurate description that there was an issue
 11  about who should be eligible to negotiate and receive the
 12  return of the Military Base, that is, whether it should
 13  be the Kettle and Stony Point Band or the Stoney Point
 14  Band?
 15                 A:   Well, I guess there was a lot of
 16  people that wanted to be part of it.
 17                 Q:   Does -- the question, though, was,
 18  does that last paragraph -- is -- in your view, is that
 19  accurate that as of May of 1993, there was an issue about
 20  who should be eligible to both negotiate and receive the
 21  return of the Military Base?  That is, should it be --
 22                 A:   There was an issue, yes.
 23                 Q:   Okay.  And if we turn over to the
 24  next page of that document, which is -- says May --
 25  sorry, says, 1993, you'll see in the second paragraph it

1 says: 2 "Members of the Stoney Point First 3 Nation have occupied a portion of the 4 Ipperwash Military Base since May 7th, 5 1993. They have requested no outside 6 involvement or participation from any 7 other organization." 8 And I think you've told us a number of 9 times in your evidence that you made that request and 10 that was something that you wanted? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Yeah. And then it goes on to say: 13 "However, in recent days, several non- 14 Stoney Point people have also begun an 15 occupation near the site of the Stoney 16 Point People." 17 And do you know whether or not, in 1993, 18 that was true; there were non-Stoney Point people in the 19 occupation that were staying at the Base? 20 A: I wouldn't say they were non-Stoney 21 Point, because there was a lot of people that had -- 22 their parents and grandparents owned land there, too. 23 Q: Okay. So, just so I'm clear, so far 24 as you knew, at least in the summer of 1993, there was no 25 one there who you would characterize as outside

1 involvement -- 2 A: That's right. 3 Q: -- or someone from another 4 organization? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And we've looked at, already, 7 a document that for the assistance of Counsel, is 8 Document 2002612 and I think you'll find it at Tab 18 of 9 your binder, which is a letter from Beacock to the OPP 10 Superintendent? 11 Sure, okay. Sorry, Mr. Commissioner, just 12 in terms of housekeeping, Ms. Vella asked me whether or 13 not the last document I referred Mr. Tolsma to ought to 14 be made an exhibit and it probably makes good sense to do 15 that? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-208. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-208. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-208: Document 200665 May 20/'93 21 Fax from J.F. Carson, 22 Inspector OPP to C.J. Coles, 23 Chief Supt. OPP re First 24 Nations Occupation CFB 25 Ipperwash, Ipperwash Prov.

1 Park, Chronology of Kettle 2 and Stony Point Bands 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: Okay. Now, the document I've just 6 referred you to, Mr. Tolsma, has also been made an 7 exhibit and it's Exhibit 178. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it's 12 one seventy-eight (178). Is it one twenty-eight (128) or 13 one seventy-eight (178)? 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: One seventy-eight 15 (178). 16 MS. KAREN JONES: One seven eight (178). 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 21 Q: And it appears from that document, 22 and I just want to see if this is consistent with your 23 recollection, that initially on May the 6th, 1993 there 24 was a number of people with tents that were in an area by 25 the target ranges, near Highway 21.

1 Do you know whether or not when people 2 moved onto the base that was where they were staying? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Yes. And it goes on, if we look down 5 on May 18th, 1993 that: 6 "Chief Carl George cut a lock from a 7 chain that secured a gate onto the base 8 property from 21 Highway. Several 9 vehicles and small structures were 10 moved onto the base property." 11 And is that accurate, is -- 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: -- that was -- yes. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Excuse me, please. My 15 concern is only that I took Mr. Tolsma to this document 16 and all of these events and asked him whether they were 17 accurate or not and similarly with many of the documents 18 that we've reviewed this morning, I don't want to unduly 19 restrict My Friend's ability to cross-examine but if 20 we're just confirming accuracy in these documents, I did 21 take the -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- Witness through it 24 thoroughly. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Absolutely.

1 I'm not sure what the point of this examination is. We 2 did go through that and those questions were asked and 3 answered, but you may have another purpose. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: I do, Mr. Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do -- 6 MS. KAREN JONES: And if we go on to the 7 next page -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 9 MS. KAREN JONES: -- under May 20th 1993, 10 there's a -- 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 13 Q: -- notation that Maynard George 14 advises Sergeant E.B. Beacock: 15 "That due to the stolen vehicle being 16 driven through a gate at the military 17 base, his people have agreed to 18 initiate a plan to record the movement 19 of their people onsite." 20 Now, do you know whether or not that there 21 was any plan that was put in place to record the movement 22 of the occupiers? 23 A: Like I said, he recorded quite a bit 24 of stuff. I wasn't by him constantly. 25 Q: Right.

1 A: He went out on his own and he 2 recorded whatever he wanted. 3 Q: Okay. And if we go on to -- if you 4 look at the fourth page, sorry fifth page, of that 5 document, you'll see that there is a page. It's numbered 6 page 1 and it starts off saying, "First Nations 7 occupation" and it says "involves persons associates". 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Let me just move on while we check 12 something, Mr. Tolsma. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are we still 17 looking at the same document? 18 MS. KAREN JONES: No, we're just going to 19 check because it sounds like my version of the document 20 is different and I just want to make sure that we have 21 the accurate number. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right, my 23 document has three (3) pages. 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 25

1 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 2 Q: And, Mr. Tolsma, after you and the 3 others were occupying the Base as of May and June of 4 1993, can you tell me whether you had discussions with 5 Tom Bressette and/or the Kettle and Stony Point Band 6 Council about what you were doing and why you were doing 7 it? 8 A: I can't recall that part, no. Of 9 course, we met with them after. We met with them quite a 10 few times, but I can't recall that one right there. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: May have, I -- I couldn't say. 13 Q: Okay. One (1) of the documents that 14 we have been provided with by the Commission is a 15 document entitled, Kettle and Stony Point Council, and it 16 says, "Important Notice" and it's dated June the 7th, 17 1993. 18 And for the assistance of Counsel, it is 19 part of a set of documents that are numbered 2001235 and 20 I think you'll see that at your Tab 23 in your book. 21 If you turn over four (4) pages in your 22 tab, Mr. Tolsma, do you see the document that's entitled, 23 Kettle and Stony Point Council? 24 A: Yes, I got it here. 25 Q: It's the fourth in mine. And going

1 through that document, we'll -- part way down, you'll see 2 that as -- on Wednesday, June the 8th, there was a 3 meeting scheduled with the Chief and Council on June the 4 9th, a general band membership meeting and then on June 5 the 10th a meeting with the location ticket holders from 6 Stoney Point. 7 Does that help you in recalling whether or 8 not you or others that you know of had a meeting with the 9 Kettle and Stony Point Band? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: There was a lot of -- like I said, 13 there was a -- back then there was a lot of meetings like 14 this. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: There was quite a few of them, so -- 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: It's hard to -- hard to say. 19 Q: Okay. And if you turn over to the 20 next page you'll see the second last paragraph says that: 21 "Finally, it is our hope that a draft 22 terms of reference in relation to a 23 Memorandum of Understanding concerning 24 the negotiations will be discussed at 25 the general band meeting on Wednesday

1 evening, too." 2 Can you tell us whether or not in June of 3 1993 you or others from the Base were having discussions 4 with the Kettle and Stony Point Band Council about coming 5 up with a terms of reference that would govern the 6 negotiations for the return of the land? 7 A: Once again, I -- I can't remember 8 that part. I don't know. 9 Q: Okay. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And, Mr. George, you've been taken a 14 couple of times now to another docket -- document which 15 is a letter from the OPP dated June the 11th, 1993 signed 16 by -- and that is in your binder at Tab 24, I believe. 17 And for the assistance of Counsel it is 18 2002536 and it happens to be Exhibit 182 as well. 19 And you were asked some questions in that 20 document regarding the land claim and the scope of the 21 land claim? Do you recall that, that it was according to 22 this document, from Ravenswood Road east of Parkhill and 23 north to Goderich with the exception of the Village of 24 Grand Bend? 25 A: I remember asking -- being asked,

1 yes. 2 Q: Okay. And I believe that your 3 evidence was that you didn't recall that being the 4 discussion on that date. 5 A: No. 6 Q: And that in any event that wasn't 7 your view of the scope of the land claim? 8 A: That's right. 9 Q: There's another document, Mr. Tolsma, 10 in -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones, 12 just before you go on, that last document, those were the 13 exact questions that he was asked, those were the exact 14 answers he gave. I'm just wondering if you're going to 15 do more of this, how that's going to assist us. 16 If you have a different purpose, perhaps 17 you can explain what it is that you're doing. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Sure. Mr. 19 Commissioner, there's another document that I wanted to 20 take Mr. Tolsma to which was not -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: -- referred to by Ms. 23 Vella and which contained, it looked like similar 24 information. And so what I would like to ask is, the 25 circumstances, whether or not this witness knows about

1 this next document and whether or not it was something 2 that he had knowledge of and whether or not it was 3 something he endorsed and whether or not it was something 4 that fairly reflected the views of the Base -- the people 5 at the Base. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, you're 7 not simply going over the same documents and asking the 8 same questions -- you're assuring us that you have 9 another objective? 10 MS. KAREN JONES: I do have another 11 objective and I would like to go to -- 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: -- the next document if 14 that's okay. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 20 Q: And for the assistance of Counsel, 21 this is Document 2001517 and it's a letter dated July 22 16th, 1993. And it is to the Superintendent of the OPP 23 from Acting Staff Sergeant Beacock. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it in our 25 materials, is it in the binder?

1 MS. KAREN JONES: Pardon me? 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 3 document in this binder? 4 MS. KAREN JONES: That document is not in 5 the binder and it was not referred to by Ms. Vella. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 9 Q: And, Mr. Tolsma, you'll see that this 10 is a letter from Acting Staff Sergeant Beacock and if you 11 want to take a second to look at it, you'll see it refers 12 to a phone call received from Maynard George who informed 13 he had been in contact with Marion Boyd in an effort with 14 -- of the Attorney General of Ontario in an effort to set 15 up their own police force. 16 George indicated they would be patrolling 17 First Nations territories between Ravenswood and Goderich 18 and he also suggested they may put a boat on patrol. And 19 it goes on. 20 Now, I wanted to ask you, Mr. Tolsma, 21 whether or not you knew whether Maynard George was having 22 contacts with others including the Attorney General of 23 Ontario or the OPP about the issue of setting up a police 24 force in an area that would be patrolled? 25 A: I wouldn't have the faintest idea.

1 Q: Pardon me? 2 A: I don't know. 3 Q: Okay. And does this -- if -- if, in 4 fact, Maynard T. George was having these contacts and 5 making these representations, were they things that were 6 being done with the knowledge and consent of the group 7 who was living on the Base or was he acting on his own? 8 A: He probably was acting on his own 9 because there's a lot of stuff that he done that I didn't 10 even know about. 11 Q: Okay. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And we heard some questions and some 16 answers yesterday about a meeting that was held between 17 members of the Kettle and Stony Point Band Council and 18 the Stoney Point Council at the office of Gord Peters, do 19 you recall that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And were you present during 22 those discussions? 23 A: I -- I was at one (1) of them -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- but I don't remember who all was

1 actually there. 2 Q: Okay. And what I wanted to do, Mr. 3 George, because this is something that I don't believe is 4 in the documents before you, is provide you with a copy 5 of a letter, and for the assistance of Counsel, it's 6 Document 900030 to see if this assists in refreshing your 7 memory about what went on and if you can help us with 8 some of the details of it? 9 And could I -- could I get a copy of this 10 passed to Mr. Tolsma and I have a copy for the 11 Commissioner as well. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 THE WITNESS: I still can't remember that 17 day. I can't remember this, no. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 20 Q: Okay, you can't remember a specific 21 date when you or others from your group met with the 22 Kettle and Stony Point Council at Gord Peters' office, is 23 that right? 24 A: No, I can't. 25 Q: Okay. Do you recall whether in July

1 of 1993 that there was a draft agreement or at least 2 agreement in principle that had been reached between the 3 Stoney Point Council and the Kettle and Stony Point Band 4 Council about how they would proceed with negotiations? 5 A: Vaguely, I remember a little, but not 6 -- not too much of it. 7 Q: Okay. If you turn to the second page 8 of that document, you'll see at the bottom that there is 9 a paragraph regarding: 10 "The Stoney Point Council has further 11 instructed me to advise you of the 12 following fundamental principles 13 embraced by their membership which 14 must, at least, be recognized and 15 respected throughout the process." 16 And it goes: 17 "1. The Stoney Point Band must be 18 given full Band status pursuant to the 19 provisions of the Indian Act. 20 2. The Stoney Point Reserve Number 43 21 must be returned to the Stoney Point 22 Band. 23 3. Compensation must be made to the 24 Stoney Point Band. 25 4. Compensation to the Kettle Point

1 Band. 2 And: 3 5. Throughout this process the 4 membership of the Stoney Point Band, 5 particularly Elders, will not be 6 encouraged to leave the Stoney Point." 7 Can you tell us whether or not in July you 8 and/or others from the Stoney Point group were taking the 9 position that that group should be given full Band 10 status? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I have to say probably, but I -- I 15 just can't -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- can't say for sure. 18 Q: Okay, and were you or others from the 19 Stoney Point Band taking the position that the Stoney 20 Point Reserve 43 should be returned to the Stoney Point 21 Band as opposed to the Kettle and Stony Point Band? 22 A: Probably. 23 Q: Okay. And that there ought to be 24 compensation to both groups? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Okay. And, Mr. Commissioner, if I 2 could have this be made the next exhibit, I'd appreciate 3 that. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-209. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-209. 6 7 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-209: Document No. 9000030 Letter 8 to Chiefs of Ontario, Attn: 9 Gord Peters From Ron C. 10 George re: Agreement of 11 working relationships Kettle 12 point/Stoney Point July 13 27/'93 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 16 Q: And do you know whether or not, Mr. 17 Tolsma, that agreement ever got signed in July or August 18 or September of 1993 as between the Kettle Point and -- 19 Kettle and Stony Point Band and the Stoney Point group? 20 A: I can't remember if there was one 21 signed or not. 22 Q: Okay. Can you recall whether or not, 23 as of September 1993, that -- whether you or others had 24 discussions with the Kettle and Stony Point First Nations 25 council about the fact that, in their view, there was no

1 working agreement between the two (2) parties and that 2 they would proceed without that? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: There probably was a meeting and that 7 probably was said, yes. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I said, again, I -- I can't remember 10 without seeing any document to that -- 11 Q: Okay. Well, maybe I can give you 12 some assistance. We've been provided by the Commission 13 with a set of minutes of meetings from the Kettle and 14 Stony Point Council -- 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: -- and so far as I know, they're not 17 numbered in the document database but I wanted to refer 18 to the minutes of meetings from September 13th, 1993 -- 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: -- and I'm not sure if we can readily 21 put it before you, but I'll let you know what that 22 document says. It says, in part, there was a discussion 23 on the working group: 24 "This agreement was acknowledged by 25 both groups on July 14th at the Chiefs

50
  1                   of Ontario Office. This would be to
  2                   work in co-operation.  The splinter
  3                   group is looking to create their own
  4                   Band.  After two (2) months delay,
  5                   Council decided not to sign the
  6                   document due to the fact that the other
  7                   group created another document and did
  8                   not sign and return a copy to the
  9                   Council."
 10                 And there's a Motion Number 1.
 11                   "Due to lack of response from community
 12                   and the spirit of intent within the
 13                   working agreement dated July 14th,
 14                   1993, and which Council endorsed on
 15                   July 14th, 1993 to be rescinded and
 16                   that the negotiation proceed for the
 17                   return of the Stoney Point lands to be
 18                   advanced and with no further delays."
 19                 Did you -- was there a communication to
 20  you or do you recall, sorry, let me -- if you turn to Tab
 21  9 of that --
 22                 A:   This one?
 23                 Q:   -- volume that was just handed to
 24  you.  If you wanted to look at the minute yourself. 
 25  Please take the chance to that.

1 A: I can remember a little bit about 2 that one there once you read it. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: I can remember there was an agreement 5 written up and I can remember that Maynard T. changed it 6 and that's when a lot of people started disagreeing with 7 a lot of stuff. And I don't believe anything was ever 8 accomplished out of it, but Maynard T. re-wrote it. 9 Q: Re-wrote the Memorandum of Agreement? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And he re-wrote so it was something 12 other and different than what was agreed upon -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- by the two (2) groups? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And as a result of that, there was no 17 agreement? 18 A: That's right. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Okay. In your brief, not the bound 23 one that was just handed to you but in the binder at Tab 24 31. And for the assistance of Counsel, this is 1007619. 25 There's a newspaper report from the Observer and it's by

1 Paul Morden and it's entitled, Kettle Point Chief 2 Welcomes Idea of Mediation. 3 And if you look at that document and if 4 you need a minute, Mr. Tolsma, let me know, it talks 5 about the Indian Commission of Ontario was mediating as 6 between Kettle and Stony Point Band and the Department of 7 National Defence at that time. Was that something that 8 you were aware of? 9 A: I don't have it here. What did you 10 say it -- 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Sorry, it's Tab 31 and 12 it's the second last page of that tab. 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 15 A: Okay, I got it. 16 Q: Okay. And it goes on the last column 17 to say that: 18 "Chief Bressette and his Band Council 19 plans to include in the negotiations a 20 representative of the families that 21 held location tickets for Stony Point 22 land in 1942. The location tickets 23 were used at the time to indicate who 24 held title to the Native lands." 25 And were you aware whether or not in or

1 about that time that there was a desire on the part of 2 Kettle and Stony Point Band Council to include a 3 representative from the -- for the families that held 4 location tickets? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Yeah. And do you know whether or not 7 that ever became formalized in that there were people 8 appointed to the negotiation team? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And what I would like to do, 11 Mr. George, is provide -- sorry, Mr. Tolsma, is provide 12 you with a letter and for the assistance of Counsel it's 13 9000038 from the law office of Ronald C. George to the 14 Kettle Point First Nations attention Chief Tom Bressette. 15 I would just like you to have a look at 16 that and see if that's a document that you were aware of. 17 And whether it sets out your understanding of the 18 situation at the time? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Nine zero zero zero three eight 23 (900038). 24 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 25 wonder if I could have a copy of the document provided to

1 Mr. Tolsma? It might be easier for him. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this 3 the -- 4 MS. KAREN JONES: And I have a copy for 5 the Commissioner, too. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 11 Q: And you'll see, Mr. Tolsma, that 12 there are, in essence, two (2) things mentioned in that 13 letter in the first paragraph was, there's a statement 14 that you and Don Goodwin of E. E. Hobbs Associates met 15 with Mr. George in September for the purpose of reviewing 16 the status of the above noted land claim. 17 Do you recall that meeting? 18 A: Not -- not specifically this one, 19 because there was quite a few of them. 20 Q: Okay. And then it goes to say, in 21 the second paragraph: 22 "I understand you are also open to the 23 appointment of two (2) members of the 24 Stoney Point community to a negotiation 25 team."

1 And is that consistent with your 2 understanding that there would be two (2) Stoney Point 3 people on the negotiating team? 4 A: At first, yes. 5 Q: Yeah, okay. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I must rise to make the 7 same -- raise the same concern I did a while ago. We 8 reviewed the negotiation team, the composition of the 9 negotiation team, the fact that Stoney Point had two (2) 10 people on it, the fact that Chief Carl George, as then 11 was, was a member of it, what occurred. 12 If there's something different, then, you 13 know, by all means this can be pursued, but if we're just 14 re-hashing what we established in-chief, I don't believe 15 that advances the interest of the Commission. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How do you 17 respond to that, Ms. Jones? 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, from 19 my understanding in part from the evidence that was 20 elicited and in -- in a little bit from a question that 21 was asked by Mr. Ross -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. Ross. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: -- yesterday, there 24 were two (2) things apparently going on at the time, one 25 (1) was the negotiation team and one (1) was a retainment

1 of E. E. Hobbs and Associates. 2 I -- I have reviewed the transcripts. I 3 haven't seen that there is evidence elicited about what 4 the E. E. Hobbs matter involved in any kind of a 5 description and there are documents that we have and I 6 believe that this Witness, perhaps, can give some more 7 information about that. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: As I recollect, the 9 Witness testified that this individual, Mr. Goodwin, was 10 a researcher, that he gathered archival documents and 11 basically copied all the documents that were at the 12 Kettle Point Band Office and provided them to the Stoney 13 Point. Maybe the Witness can add further to that, but 14 that certainly was the evidence yesterday. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: He may be able to add 17 further to that and if I ask him a couple of questions, 18 perhaps we'll find out. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's go a 20 bit. 21 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. And before we 22 proceed, Mr. Commissioner, could I have this letter from 23 Ronald C. George dated September 21, 1993 made the next 24 exhibit? 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-210.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-210. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-210: Document No. 9000038, Letter 4 to Chief Tom Bressette, 5 Kettle Point First Nation 6 from Ron C. Orange re Stoney 7 Point Land Claim, September 8 21/'93 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 11 Q: Mr. Tolsma, in the cerlox bound, 12 Binder 2, on the side, that contains the minutes of the 13 Kettle and Stony Point group, if you turn to Tab 13 of 14 that doc -- of that bind -- of that bound book, you'll 15 see that that contains the minutes of the Chippewas of 16 Kettle and Stony Point First Nations council, Tuesday 17 November 2nd, 1993. 18 And if you turn over to page 2 of that 19 document... 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't have 21 that binder. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Pardon me? This is -- 23 I -- Mr. Commissioner, as I understood, these were 24 documents that were provided to everyone. I don't have 25 the separate set of --

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: -- the document. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: If you look at the second page of the 6 minutes, under the first bullet point and this is a 7 review of -- of the E.E. Hobbs and Associates retainer, 8 it says that E.E. Hobbs and Associates, they were 9 contracted to ident -- to identify if there were two (2) 10 bands or one (1) band. 11 And it goes on to say: 12 "Had a meeting with the other group in 13 Toronto last Friday, October 29, 1993 14 and clearly pointed out to them that it 15 was one (1) band and not two (2) 16 separate bands and that separation was 17 not in the cards. 18 They feel confident that this was 19 accepted by the other group and they're 20 now willing to consolidate and let's 21 negotiate from strength and not 22 division." 23 And first of all, Mr. Tolsma, do you 24 recall whether or not E.E. Hobbs and Associates were 25 contracted with to identify whether, in fact, there were

1 two (2) bands or one (1) band as between Kettle and Stony 2 Point band and the Stoney Point group? 3 A: No, I don't know. 4 Q: Okay. And do you recall having any 5 meeting with E.E. Hobbs and Associates? 6 A: Oh yes. 7 Q: Okay. Do you recall a meeting where 8 they -- the members of that group or persons from that 9 group told you that that there was one (1) band and not 10 two (2) separate bands -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- and that separation wasn't in the 13 cards? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And was that something that 16 you agreed with and/or accepted at the time? 17 A: I agreed with it, yes. 18 Q: Okay. And do you know whether or not 19 others in the Stoney Point Band group accepted and agreed 20 with that position at the time or whether -- 21 A: Some -- some people didn't. 22 Q: Okay. So, some did and some didn't? 23 A: That's right. 24 Q: Okay. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And you had told us, Mr. Tolsma that, 4 in your first day of evidence of here, and this is -- you 5 were talking about in the fall of 1993 being on the 6 negotiating committee and that there were problems and 7 the same problem came up time and time again. 8 And that problem, I take it, was the view 9 of some that there was or should be separation between 10 the Kettle and Stony Point Band and the Stoney Point 11 group? 12 A: Some people had that outlook, yes. 13 Q: Right. And was that something that, 14 in your view, caused a rift between the negotiators for 15 Kettle and Stony Point band and the Stoney Point group? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Yes. And was that one of the 18 reasons, in fact, that you weren't able to carry on with 19 those discussions? 20 A: Not only that, there was other 21 reasons. There was a lot of accusations thrown in there. 22 Q: Okay, about? 23 A: Anything. Anything and everything. 24 Q: Okay. And were those accusations 25 that were made in your -- if you know, by members of the

1 Kettle and Stony Point group against the Stoney Point 2 group or did the accusations go both ways? 3 A: Well, it was mainly one person, like 4 I mentioned -- 5 Q: Right. And you'd said that was Norm 6 Shawnoo. 7 A: Norm Shawnoo. He was chairing the 8 meeting and I got the outlook he didn't want us on the 9 committee and he just kept throwing things and -- at us 10 and I responded and it ended up in a lot of argument, a 11 lot of -- few people walked off and didn't want to be 12 bothered to arguing and... 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: It was just -- other than that, 15 everything else went pretty good. 16 Q: Okay. But, I take it at the end of 17 all those arguments after you and others had left that 18 there wasn't a representative or representatives of the 19 Stoney Point Band on the Stony Point and -- Kettle and 20 Stony Point negotiating group? 21 A: Well, some still stayed, yes. There 22 still was representatives there, yes. 23 Q: There was still representatives 24 there? 25 A: Oh yes.

1 Q: Okay. And do you know whether or not 2 those representatives were -- were advocating that there 3 be a separation between Kettle and Stony Point and -- 4 A: No. 5 Q: -- Stoney Point? They weren't or you 6 don't know? 7 A: I -- as long as I was there, I never 8 heard of any talks like that. 9 Q: Okay. I wanted to move into a 10 different area, Mr. Tolsma, and there was -- you've given 11 some evidence about your understanding of the guns that 12 were at the base and what the guns were used for. 13 A: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps this 15 would be a good point to take a morning break. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would you 18 agree, Ms. Jones, it is a good point for you? 19 We'll take a morning break now. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 21 for fifteen (15) minutes. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 10:18 a.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 10:37 a.m. 25

1 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 5 Q: Mr. Tolsma, you had said in your 6 evidence that you were aware that one (1) person, that is 7 Marlin Simon, have a gun and that was a gun that was used 8 for hunting; is that right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Now, we've heard evidence in this 11 Inquiry from a number of people about guns that they had 12 on the Base and I wanted to ask you whether or not you, 13 personally, ever went into Dudley George's trailer and 14 saw the contents of the trailer during the time that you 15 were involved with the people on the Base? 16 A: I was in the trailer, yes. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Of what contents do you -- 19 Q: Well, we had heard some evidence or 20 we --we anticipate that there will be evidence heard at 21 this Inquiry of people who saw guns in Dudley George's 22 trailer. Was that something that you saw? 23 A: I never seen any. 24 Q: Okay. And in terms of David George, 25 we heard evidence from him that while he was on the Base

1 that he purchased a sawed-off shotgun which was called 2 the, Bastard Blaster; were you aware of that? 3 A: I heard of it, but I never ever seen 4 it. 5 Q: Okay. And are you familiar with 6 Kelly's Hunting and Sporting Goods, a store in Inwood, 7 Ontario? 8 A: Again, I heard of it, but I've never 9 been there, no. 10 Q: Okay. And I wanted to ask you that 11 because one (1) of the documents that has been provided 12 by the Commission is a document, and for the assistance 13 of Counsel, it's 2005113 and those are notes from a 14 Detective Bell, and included in those notes is a summary 15 of information, apparently, regarding Kelly's Hunting and 16 Sporting Goods and there's an entry in that document at 17 page 9 of 11 and it says: 18 "The following is a firearm purchased 19 by Carl Otto George from Kelly's on 20 November 27th, 1992." 21 And it says: 22 "Inventory number 682, serial number 23 18792657." 24 And it says: 25 "Ruger Mini-14 223 calibre."

1 Did you purchase that gun from -- 2 A: You need a -- 3 Q: -- the store? 4 A: -- a guns -- a permit to buy -- buy 5 any kind of a gun, which I don't have. No, I didn't, but 6 I'd like to see if I signed it and where this document 7 came from because I don't even know where the place is. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: This is something I'd like to have. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: As far as I know you have to have a 12 AFC licence -- take a course in order to buy any kind of 13 a weapon. 14 Q: The next document I wanted to take 15 you to, Mr. Tolsma, is a document -- and I think you'll 16 find it at Tab 29 of your binder and for the assistance 17 of Counsel it's 2001810. 18 And it's an article from the Sarnia 19 Observer dated August 25, 1993. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think that 21 document is an Exhibit. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One eighty- 24 eight (188). 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 4 Q: It's Tab 29. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And you'll see in the middle section 9 of that document in the middle column, it says: 10 "Acting Chief Carl George calls for 11 calm and asked Band members for 12 cooperation to prevent a recurrence of 13 the 1990 arm standoff between Mohawk 14 warriors and Government forces near 15 Oka, Quebec. We want to settle this in 16 a nonviolent way Chief George said. 17 If it comes to a standoff I will have 18 to take these people off the land. I'm 19 responsible for the safety of children 20 here." 21 And I wanted to ask you, Mr. George, do 22 you recall giving an interview to George Matheson around 23 this time? You'll see he's -- 24 A: I remember doing the interview, yes. 25 Q: Okay. And did you have a concern at

1 the time that the matter potentially at the base could 2 escalate to a standoff -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- if people didn't -- weren't calm, 5 they weren't cooperative? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And was the language that you would 8 have used an armed standoff like the 1990 - or standoff 9 between Mohawk warriors and the Government? Was that 10 something you had in your mind? 11 A: Well there -- like in Oka there was 12 the warriors up there and at the same time we had a 13 different -- there was word that they were going to send 14 the -- like the army from Quebec, the Vandoos. They're 15 supposed to be a fearless outfit to get the people off 16 the land. 17 And at that time I didn't want anything 18 like that to happen. So, yes, I was concerned about the 19 -- the people and the children and I probably would have 20 asked them if that ever escalated any further. 21 Q: Okay. Just so I understand you, you 22 said there was talk about the Quebec Vandoos, was that 23 something in relation to the Ipperwash base or is that 24 something -- 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: -- in relation -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- to Oka? 4 A: Yes. A little earlier when we on 5 there, they -- they came in. They were about the last 6 outfit that came in and they tried to intimidate us by 7 marching up and down, doing their exercise on the 8 roadside near where the trailer were, the people were. 9 And they made it look like they were ready 10 to start evacuating and -- but they never did. They 11 continued back to the grenade range and starting throwing 12 grenades. And they -- if I recall right, they were there 13 for a good three (3) hours. 14 Q: Okay. So, if I understand what 15 you're saying, in 1993 one of the groups that was 16 training at the base was the Vandoos -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- and they were training in the area 19 of the rifle range and the grenade range? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And did you have any conversations at 22 or about that time with the person in charge of the 23 base -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- about any concerns you had about

1 the Vandoos? 2 A: We didn't even know they were coming. 3 Q: Okay. And you said that you -- you 4 had the view that they would want to evict you? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what was that based on? Did you 7 have conversations with any of the Vandoos? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Conversations with anyone at the 10 base? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Did you have information from anyone 13 else -- 14 A: I used to be in cadets -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- when I was younger and I'm -- 17 Q: Sure. 18 A: -- and then I have a little bit of 19 knowledge of the procedures and they were presenting arms 20 and everybody knew that they were the vandoos, because 21 they had them on their arms and when I was working in the 22 camp earlier, they were in there before, so I knew who 23 they -- who they were. 24 Q: So, they were a group that had 25 trained at the base before?

1 A: Yes, they have trained there before. 2 Q: Sure, and they trained there while it 3 was occupied and when it wasn't occupied? 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: Okay. And so the fact that they were 6 training there while the base was being occupied by the 7 Stoney Point group, you thought had some particular 8 significance? 9 A: Usually they train in the built-up 10 area. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: They don't train out on the side of 13 the road. 14 Q: Okay. And so the fact of the 15 location of their training from that you took that they 16 were potentially going to be a problem for you? 17 A: I thought it could be a problem, yes. 18 Q: Okay, and -- 19 A: Sure. 20 Q: -- that problem could be that they 21 would to evict you? 22 A: They -- well, I thought -- well, 23 that, yes. 24 Q: Okay. And that wasn't something that 25 you had discussions with at the base or you had any

1 information about. That was just your -- your view about 2 it? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And in this article, when it 5 says: 6 "If it comes to a stand-off, I will 7 have to take these people off the 8 land." 9 What -- what were you meaning when you 10 said if it comes to a stand-off? 11 A: The women and children. 12 Q: No, no, sorry. What would the stand- 13 off be? 14 A: Between the army. 15 Q: Okay. The army and the occupiers? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And from your perception, what 18 would the stand off look like? What steps, if any would 19 the army or the Department of National Defence take that 20 would make it different than what was going on as of 21 August 1993? 22 A: What I had imagined that they would 23 try to remove us by force. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: And we talked about it and a lot of

1 people -- a lot of the -- a lot of the guys said we're 2 not -- we're not leaving. And if it takes it, we'll take 3 the beating. 4 But, we had one (1) guy with a camcorder 5 to tape everything. He was the one that was supposed to 6 stand a little further away. We had a few guys appointed 7 that were young that could run fast and they were 8 supposed to be in one spot and if it ever came to that, 9 we'd have it recorded -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- because we had planned that we 12 weren't going to fight back, we'd just let them do 13 whatever they want and we'd take the beating. 14 Q: Okay. So, just so I'm clear, as of 15 August 1993, you and others had made a plan that in the 16 event, the Department of National Defence or the army 17 tried to remove you, you would hold your ground -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- is that right? And you would 20 record the situation? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you wouldn't fight? 23 A: No. 24 Q: But on the other hand, you wouldn't 25 leave?

1 A: That's right. 2 Q: Okay. And I take it, throughout the 3 course of time you were at the base no situation like 4 that ever happened? 5 A: That never happened, no. 6 Q: Okay. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And did you also have concerns, Mr. 11 Tolsma, that the OPP could move in and try and remove you 12 from the base? 13 A: Thought about it, and they had the 14 right too, yes. 15 Q: Okay. And similarly did you have any 16 plans, you and others of the Stoney Point group, as to 17 what you would do if the OPP did move in and try and 18 evict you from the base? 19 A: We'd use the same tactic. 20 Q: Okay. And I -- did you have any -- 21 you've talked a little bit earlier in your evidence about 22 the relationship that you had with the OPP -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- and someone that you identified as 25 Bouwman --

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: -- do you recall that? Did you -- 3 did you ever have discussions with him or any other of 4 the police that you were dealing with about your 5 concerns? 6 A: With my concerns? 7 Q: Concerns about the OPP coming in and 8 taking over? 9 A: I can't remember if that was 10 specifically about the concerns of the OPP coming in. I 11 can't remember that. 12 Q: Okay. And I take it throughout the 13 entire time you were at the Base that never occurred? 14 A: It never occurred, no. 15 Q: Okay. And you talked a little bit, 16 Mr. Tolsma, about threats. You had been asked on your 17 first day of evidence about, for example, threats or -- 18 threats that you perceived from the Kettle and Stony 19 Point Band and asking from some assistance from the OPP 20 regarding that. Do you remember that? 21 A: I'd have to see a document to -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- refresh my memory, but -- 24 Q: Sure. In your transcript, and this 25 is the transcript from February 9th, 2005 at page 67,

1 there's a -- a portion of a document was read to you: 2 "Carl George asked OPP for assistance. 3 He intimates possibility of violence by 4 other band members against Stoney Point 5 group." 6 And the question was, do you recall having 7 a concern in that regard and making a request for 8 assistance and the answer was: 9 "I can remember a little bit. Like, I 10 probably did call them because there 11 was a lot -- like I said, a lot of 12 people didn't like us being there and 13 at that time a lot of people, because 14 we were on the land, said we were on 15 their parent's --grandparent's property 16 and they didn't like the idea of us 17 being there." 18 And then the question: 19 "So, these were other people from the 20 Kettle and Stony Point community who 21 you had concerns?" 22 And the answer was, "Yes." 23 Does that -- does that refresh your memory 24 a bit? 25 A: A bit, yes.

1 Q: Okay. And we saw yesterday, the 2 clipping that you got that you -- that was, in your view, 3 a threat and that was made an exhibit and my question to 4 you was, over the course of time that you were at the 5 base or you were Chief of the Stoney Point group or 6 representing yourself at Chief -- as Chief, did you get 7 threats from anyone else other than your concerns about 8 possible retaliation from the Kettle and Stoney Point 9 Group? 10 A: I just got the one (1) clipping out 11 of the newspaper with writing on it. 12 Q: Right. 13 A: I took that as a threat. 14 Q: Sure. Did you have any concern while 15 you were the Chief that you were vulnerable from other 16 people or vulnerable that other people might try to in 17 some way harm you or threaten you? 18 A: I wasn't... 19 Q: Other than from the Kettle and Stony 20 Point group? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No? And in fact, nothing like that 23 ever happened? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. And I want to move now -- on

1 now to 1994 because we've heard some evidence that early 2 in 1994 the Government announced that it was returning 3 the Base and that that was something that was on the 4 budget for 1994. 5 Were you aware of that Government 6 announcement? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Did you see that as progress -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- towards resolving the matter? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And in or about 1994, were you 13 aware of a position from the Federal Government that it 14 would only negotiate with the Kettle and Stony Point 15 Band -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- regarding the return to the -- of 18 the land and not -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- the Stoney Point group? Okay. 21 And I wanted to take you to a document, 22 Mr. Tolsma, and it is -- it's Document 1003690 and in 23 your volume it's Tab 40, if you could have a look at it. 24 It's a Sarnia Observer article, Stoney 25 Point Natives Brave Cold Waiting for Talks.

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And you'll see on the last column -- 4 sorry, that's not the document. Maybe I said the number 5 incorrectly for you. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's in the 7 right tab but just two (2) or three (3) behind this one. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. I'm looking at 9 the document entitled, Stoney Point Natives Brave Cold 10 Waiting for Talks. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's it. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 14 Q: And if you want to take a minute to 15 read the entire article, Mr. Tolsma, you ought to do that 16 but what I was particularly wanting to take you to was 17 the last column of that document. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And you'll see that in the middle 22 paragraph of the last column it says: 23 "Chief George said he met once with 24 Kettle and Stony Point officials but 25 the groups are working separately. I

1 don't want to jeopardize the Stoney 2 Point people. I have to do what's best 3 for them he said." 4 And I understand that this article was 5 dated January 20th, 1994. As at that time, Mr. Tolsma, 6 that is early in 1994, was the Kettle and Stony Point 7 Band and the Stoney Point group working separately 8 regarding the negotiations? 9 A: I don't think so. 10 Q: Okay. Were there issues at that time 11 regarding the nego -- sorry, let me just go back a little 12 bit. 13 Were members from the Stoney Point Band 14 still on the negotiating team, do you recall? 15 A: I believe there was, yes. 16 Q: Okay. And was there a concern at 17 that time about who was on the negotiating team and what 18 their role was? 19 A: An issue? 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: I don't think so. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. I wonder, Mr. 23 Commissioner, if that article could be made the next 24 exhibit? 25 THE REGISTRAR: P-211.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-211. 2 3 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-211: Document No. 1003690 Sarnia 4 Observer article "Stoney 5 Point Natives Brave Cold 6 Waiting For Talks" Jan. 7 20/'94 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 10 Q: And I wanted to take you to another 11 article, Mr. Tolsma and for the assistance of Counsel 12 it's 1007619 and it a Sarnia Observer article entitled, 13 Ipperwash Return Faces Complications, and it's dated 14 February 24, 1994. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: The document should be, Ipperwash 19 Return Faces Complications. And that's not in the binder 20 that's in front of you, Mr. Tolsma. 21 A: It's not in here? 22 Q: I'm sorry about that but it will be 23 up on the screen. And what I particularly wanted to take 24 you to was the bottom of the first column, starting at 25 the paragraph:

1 "But the nearly year long occupation 2 has been led by a group calling itself 3 the Stoney Point Band. It maintains 4 that it is independent of Kettle Point 5 and should be included in the talks. 6 We want our recognition back and we 7 want equal representation at the 8 negotiating table, said Stoney Point 9 Chief Carl George. We have our Council 10 and we have our lawyers, he said. They 11 just can't forget about us." 12 Does that assist you in recalling whether 13 or not there was an issue as of February 1994 about who 14 was negotiating and the Stoney Point group's 15 representation? 16 A: At the time, we wanted some -- some 17 of the people down there that wanted to be on the 18 negotiating team. That way, they -- they were satisfied 19 and they were represented equally. 20 Q: Some of the people down there, 21 referring to some of the people from the Stoney Point 22 group at the base? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And they wanted to be on the 25 negotiating group?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And they weren't at the time? 3 A: Not at the time -- 4 Q: No. 5 A: -- but this is where we first 6 started, because they wanted to be on the negotiating 7 team. 8 Q: Okay. And do you know, as of 1994, 9 whether you or others from the Stoney Point group were 10 taking steps to inform other groups or organizations that 11 you were a separate and independent group from the Kettle 12 and Stony Point Band? 13 A: Prior to that? '94? 14 Q: As -- as -- as of February -- as of 15 January and February 1994 were you continuing to let 16 people know that you considered yourself separate? 17 A: Like I said, Maynard T. wrote a lot 18 of letters and stuff and I -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- there might have been something 21 like that, I can't say for sure. 22 Q: Okay. Let me -- let me see if I can 23 assist you here a little bit. 24 I have a document, and for the assistance 25 of Counsel, it's 9000069, and it's a letter dated January

1 28th, 1994 and it's signed by a number of persons 2 including yourself. 3 And it's sent to Health and Welfare Canada 4 and what I'll do, Mr. Tolsma, is have a copy of the 5 letter passed up to you and you can have a look at it. 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And if you just want to take a minute 11 to read that document, Mr. Tolsma. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Well, this document here -- 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: -- I can recall it. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: It was Maynard T. who wrote this up 20 and it was meant to get assistance for the people that 21 needed it and those that needed help with getting their 22 drugs. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: It -- they tried to, you know -- 25 Q: Okay.

1 A: -- get help to get their drugs and 2 dental work or whatever they needed. 3 Q: Okay. I understand from looking at 4 the first paragraph of the document that at the time, 5 Kettle and Stony Point was proposing that there be a 6 transfer of health services back to the Band. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Yeah. And I understand from looking 9 at this document that you and others were taking the 10 position that any concerns or issues regarding the health 11 services of the Stoney Point people had to be directed to 12 Stoney Point not Kettle and Stony Point. Is that right? 13 If you look at -- 14 A: If it was -- 15 Q: -- the third paragraph -- 16 A: -- yes -- 17 Q: -- of that document? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Yeah. And it goes on in the fourth 20 paragraph to say, 21 "We will not be bound by the terms and 22 conditions of any arrangement reached 23 by your ministry or your agents or 24 representatives concerning the transfer 25 of health services to Kettle Point

1 First nations and Stony Point First 2 Nations." 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You recall that. And if you look at 5 the last page, I wanted to ask you about this, Mr. 6 Tolsma, because this is one of the documents that doesn't 7 appear to have been signed by Maynard T. George, but 8 rather by a -- by the chief and the councillors of the 9 Stoney Point group. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 A: You wanted to know what? 14 Q: I said, this is a document that 15 you've said that this is something Maynard T. George 16 drafted. 17 A: Yes? 18 Q: But I see that it is signed by 19 yourself and the Councilors at that time of the Stoney 20 Point group -- 21 A: Yes? 22 Q: -- and that you are one (1) of the 23 people -- you and Glenn George -- are the people to be 24 contacted -- 25 A: Yes?

1 Q: -- if Health and Welfare Canada had 2 any questions about your position? 3 A: Yes? 4 Q: Okay. Was this, in fact, something 5 that you and the Council agreed upon that reflected your 6 views? 7 A: Yes, we talked about it. 8 Q: Okay. Mr. Commissioner, I'd ask that 9 this be made... 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sorry, 11 what -- 12 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. Sorry, that is 13 already, Mr. Commissioner. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's Exhibit P-200. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 19 Q: And I take it that as the spring 20 progressed, you and others continued to make efforts on 21 behalf of the Stoney Point Group to assert your 22 separateness from Kettle and Stony Point Band? 23 A: Of '94? 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: Probably.

1 Q: Okay. I'm going to pass up to you, 2 Mr. Tolsma, a document, and for the assistance of Counsel 3 it's 9000094 and it appears to be a letter from Anthony 4 Ross to Ronald Irwin written on behalf of Stoney Point 5 and I wanted to have that passed up to you to have a look 6 at and there's a copy for the Commissioner. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: And this is Exhibit 201. And it 11 refers in that document, Mr. Tolsma, to a petition that 12 was signed by a hundred and thirteen (113) band members, 13 a hundred and four (104), which have band numbers and the 14 other nine (9), although they're not part of the Stoney 15 Point First Nation do not have band numbers. 16 Were you aware of the petition or a 17 petition that was signed? 18 A: I can just vaguely remember a 19 petition, yes. 20 Q: Okay. And can you tell us, was that 21 -- was that petition meant to represent all of the people 22 that had a claim or a special claim to the Stoney Point-- 23 A: If there was a petition done up, it-- 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: -- just refer to whoever signed.

1 Q: Okay. So, that group, the numbers of 2 a hundred and thirteen (113) band members isn't 3 significant in terms of that represents the people who -- 4 who you or others were of the view had a special 5 entitlement to the land at the Base? 6 A: Like I said, it -- it only pertained 7 to whoever signed because I didn't know exactly who -- 8 who wanted to sign or -- we just went along with it, but 9 there was another one that Maynard T. wrote up. I didn't 10 write none of these documents up, Maynard T. wrote all 11 these documents. 12 Q: Okay. And you'll see that that 13 letter was sent to Mr. Irwin. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: And as I understand, in response to 18 this letter that's on the screen, the letter written by 19 Mr. Ross to Mr. Irwin, I understand from looking through 20 the documents that there was a response to that letter 21 and for the assistance of Counsel, it's 9000115, that 22 there was a response from Audrey Doerr. 23 Do you recall that? 24 A: No, I can't recall it, no. 25 Q: Okay. Well, let me pass up to you,

1 Mr. Tolsma, a document that is a letter to you from Mr. 2 Ross enclosing a letter from Audrey Doerr and I'm just 3 going to ask if this be passed up to you, if this helps 4 refresh your memory a bit. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And you'll see that there's two (2) 9 documents that have been passed up to you, one (1) is the 10 letter to you from Mr. Ross dated May 25, 1994 and the 11 second is and enclosed in that letter is a document dated 12 May 12th, 1994 from Audrey Doerr. 13 Did you have a chance to look at those 14 documents? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Okay? 19 A: Hmm hmm. 20 Q: If you look at the letter from Mr. 21 Ross which is the second document that you have there, 22 and that's Document 9000117, you'll see that Mr. Ross 23 says that he's enclosing Audrey Doerr's letter of May 24 12th and according to that, the bottom line is, is that 25 Indian Affairs and DND will only deal with the elected

1 chief and council of Kettle and Stony Point, and goes on: 2 "What this means is that Canada and its 3 departments does not recognize Stoney 4 Point as an independent band and will 5 not be including Stoney Point in any 6 discussions whatsoever. 7 It's my view that the actions of 8 Maynard George back in August 1993 have 9 caused your people to lose any real 10 opportunity they had to become involved 11 in discussions with respect to IR 43." 12 And I take it the actions of Maynard 13 George in August 1993 were the changing of the terms of 14 the agreement between Kettle Point band and the Stoney 15 Point group; is that right? 16 A: The -- he did change that one (1) 17 letter, yes. 18 Q: Yeah, yeah. And it goes on, on the 19 second page of that letter it says: 20 "Again I ask that the chief and council 21 form working groups of ten (10) per 22 member who are really prepared to work 23 if Stony Point is ever going to be in a 24 position to break away from Kettle 25 Point."

1 And as a result of Mr. Ross' May 25, 1994 2 letter, did you and the council form working groups? 3 A: For the negotiating? 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Yes, you did? Okay. Mr. 7 Commissioner, I'd ask that those two (2) documents, that 8 is Mr. Ross' May 25, 1994 letter and the attached letter, 9 the May 12th, 1994 letter from Audrey Doerr, be made the 10 next exhibit. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-212. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 212. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-212: Document No. 9000115 May 15 12/'94 Letter from Audrey D. 16 Doerr, Regional Director 17 General to Anthony Ross re 18 Stoney Point IR No. 43 and 19 document No. 9000117 May 20 25/'94 Mr. Anthony Ross 21 letter to Chief Carl George 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 24 Q: And I then wanted to take you to the 25 minutes of a meeting, a general Band meeting that was

1 held at Kettle and Stony Point Community Centre on May 2 the 5th, 1994. 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: And for the assistance of Counsel -- 5 and you'll that in that cerlox bound document in front of 6 you and it's at Tab number 18. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Referring to 8 the meeting of May 5th? 9 MS. KAREN JONES: The May 5th, 1994 10 general-- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it's 12 Tab 20 or maybe it's Tab 20 in your binder. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: It -- it may be, Mr. 14 Commissioner, but it is the May 5th meeting -- minutes 15 that I'm looking at. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's Tab 20 20 I think in the binder I have. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES. 23 Q: Tab 20? I think I made a mistake, 24 Mr. Tolsma, it's Tab 20. Do you have that document in 25 front of you or can you find it?

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: At least in my book the minutes are 4 arranged in chronological order. So if you're having 5 trouble finding it at the tab you're at -- 6 A: Well I got here like it's a regular 7 Council meeting. 8 Q: A General Band Meeting, Thursday, May 9 5, 1994? Is that what you're looking at? 10 A: No. It's Thursday, July 21st. 11 Q: Okay. I think if you go back two (2) 12 or three (3) tabs you'll find the May 5th. 13 A: This ones May 5th. 14 Q: Okay. And is that at your Tab 18? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I have a 18 different -- different numbering. 19 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I 20 apologize for the confusion. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 22 We're all on the same page now. 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay, great. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES:

1 Q: Now, I understand from reading the 2 minutes of this meeting, Mr. Tolsma,