1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 21st, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )
  4  Donald Worme, Q.C. )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  Jodie-Lynn Waddilove)   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein )            The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )  (np)      George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    ) (np)       (Student-at-law)
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )   (np)       Aazhoodena (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stoney
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Sue Freeborn     )   (np)
 25  Michelle Pong    )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (Np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 11  
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  
 15  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 16  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 17  
 18  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 19  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 20  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 21  Peter West         ) (np)
 22  Nagai On Young     )
 23  
 24  
 25

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
  3  Karen Jones      )              Police Association &
  4  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
  5  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
  6  Annie Leeks      )   (np)
  7  
  8  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  9  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
 10  Julian Roy       )   (np)
 11  
 12  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
 13  Robert Ash, Q.C.  )   (np)       Coroner
 14  
 15  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 16  Matthew Horner   )
 17  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 18  
 19  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 20  Craig Mills      )
 21  Megan Mackey     )   (np)
 22  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 23  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 24  Melissa Panjer   )
 25  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 Discussion 10 7 8 CARL OTTO TOLSMO, Resumed 9 10 Continued Examination-In-Chief 11 by Ms. Susan Vella 15 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 67 13 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 71 14 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 99 15 Cross-Examination by Mr. William Henderson 133 16 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 146 17 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 199 18 19 20 21 22 Certificate of Transcript 225 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No 3 P-195 Document No. 9000014 May 06/93, letter 4 of Authority to the OPP Forest 5 Detachment from Stoney Point No. 43 6 First Nation signed by Carl. O. George 7 Chief and Maynard T. George, councillor, 8 Re: Occupation of traditional homes. 23 9 P-196 Document No. 90000483, June 01/'93 10 from Stoney Point No. 43 First Nation 11 signed by Carl. O. George, Chief and 12 Maynard T. George, councillor, To 13 Mr. Barry Redmond, Social and Family 14 Benefits, Sarnia, re: Listing of 15 Individuals and families needing 16 welfare assistance at the Stoney 17 Point First Nation Reserve No. 43. 24 18 P-197 Document No. 9000553, July 02/'92 19 preliminary draft Stoney Point 20 Band Membership List. 30 21 P-198 Document No. 9000038 September 21, 22 1993 letter from Ronald C. George, 23 Law Office to Kettle Point First 24 Nation, Attention Chief Tom Bressette 25 re Stoney Point land claim. 36

1 EXHIBITS (con'td) 2 No. Description Page No 3 P-199 Document No. 9000064, December 10/'93 4 Letter from Rose Marie Ur, MP 5 Lambton Middlesex to Chief Carl O. 6 George re: Land Settlement Dispute 7 between Camp Ipperwash and Stoney 8 Point Reserve. 37 9 P-200 Document No. 9000069, January 28/'94 10 Letter from Stoney Point No. 43 First 11 Nation To Mr. Richard Jock, Ontario 12 Regional Direction, Medical Services 13 Branch, Health & Welfare Canada re: 14 Proposed pre-transfer and transfer of 15 health services Stoney Point First Nation 46 16 P-201 Document No. 9000094 May 3rd, 1994 fax 17 to Hon. Ronald A. Irwin, R.C.M.P., 18 Minister of Indian Affairs from Anthony 19 Ross, Counsel for Chippewa of Kettle 20 & Stoney Point re: return of the lands 21 taken by Canada in 1943. 49 22 23 24 25

1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 Exhibit No. Description Page No. 3 P-202 Document No. 9000124, August 3rd, 4 1994, from Chief Carl George, 5 Stoney Point No. 43 to Hon. Ronald 6 A. Irwin, Minister of Indian Affairs 7 & Northern Developments re: Stoney 8 Point First Nations No. 43 return of 9 Land. 51 10 P-203 Document No. 9000123, Sept 21/'94 letter 11 from Hon. D.M. Collenette, Minister 12 of National Defense to Mr. Carl 13 George re Appropriation of Stoney 14 Point Reserve 52 15 P-204 Sarnia Observer article Suspicious 16 Fires Damage Buildings at Military 17 Camp, sent to Carl George with 18 notation "You're No Chief, You Stupid 19 Jerk." 61 20 P-205 Document No. 9000028, July 22/'93 21 list Of Stoney Point Members in 22 Attendance at Meeting in Toronto 126 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS (con'td) 2 No. Description Page No 3 P-206 Document No. 9000253 May 3/'94 letter 4 to Rosemary Ur, MP from Stoney 5 Point First Nation No. 43 signed by 6 Carl George, Chief and Glenn M. 7 George, Councillor re: letter of 8 introduction and authorization 9 advising that Ronald C. George and 10 E. Anthony Ross are the legal advisers 11 working on behalf of The Stoney Point 12 First Nation No. 43 140 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 10:33 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commission. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning, everybody. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I just wanted to deal 11 with a couple of administrative things before we start. 12 The issue of the location of Mr. George's testimony, 13 we'll deal with tomorrow at the conclusion of Mr. 14 Tolsma's evidence or at an appropriate time. 15 I just wanted to -- everyone can see we've 16 tried to bring in this table here. It is an experiment 17 to see if it will help people in terms of bringing 18 material up for their examinations and we've also added a 19 -- a microphone that's a live microphone in terms of if 20 someone has an objection so that -- it works pretty well 21 in terms of people coming up to this microphone, but it 22 might make it a little easier. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good. Ms. 24 Vella, I understand you -- did you want to -- I have a 25 few things to say --

1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Well, I -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- should I 3 wait until you complete your examination? 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I would suggest you 5 carry on with your comments. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. I 7 just have a couple of comments that I want to make before 8 we begin the cross-examination of Mr. Tolsma this 9 morning. I just want to say a few words about the status 10 of Part 2 of the Inquiry. 11 As you know, Part 1 of this Inquiry, the 12 evidentiary hearings, is designed to inquire into and 13 report on the events surrounding the death of Dudley 14 George. 15 As you also know, the other important 16 component of this Commission's mandate is to make 17 recommendations directed to the avoidance of violence in 18 similar circumstances. 19 The evidence that we've heard so far and 20 the evidence that we will be hearing in the forthcoming 21 weeks as well as the findings of fact that I make with 22 respect to that evidence, will form the basis for my 23 recommendations. 24 In addition, the extensive research and 25 consultations that we have embarked upon in Part 2 is

1 also important as it will inform and assist me in 2 developing those recommendations. 3 The general outline of the research agenda 4 has been posted on our website since October and we've 5 made significant progress since then. A more detailed 6 memo updating where we are from Mr. Nye Thomas, our 7 director of policy and research, and outlining the 8 progress that we've made will be forwarded to all parties 9 later this week, perhaps this afternoon or tomorrow. 10 We've commissioned more than twenty (20) 11 research papers from a variety of authors including 12 leading academics and community leaders. The papers 13 address a broad range of subject matters, such as 14 policing in aboriginal occupations, native land claims, 15 aboriginal burial and other sacred sites, relationships 16 between the government and law enforcement agencies. 17 We've now received a number of the papers 18 in draft form and we are in the process of seeking input 19 and comment on some of the papers. 20 Now, the nature and form of our 21 consultation will vary depending on the subject matter of 22 the paper, timing, logistics and cost. In some cases, 23 the consultation will take the form of a community 24 meeting where people will be given an opportunity to 25 share their experience and/or their views.

1 In other cases, it will consist of a round 2 table of invited experts and/or parties who will be asked 3 to comment on the paper. Parties will be invited to 4 participate in a consultation are appropriate, but 5 participation, of course, optional. Clearly, not every 6 party is interested in every topic nor are they expected 7 to be. 8 Participation funding for the 9 consultations may be available for parties who need it, 10 but Counsel fees are not. 11 In addition to the Inquiry's research and 12 consultations, I have recommended funding for some 13 parties to prepare its research documents or papers or to 14 conduct consultations of their own. 15 Parties were not precluded from seeking 16 funding for a research project if an issue was also 17 identified in the Inquiry's research and consultation 18 plan. 19 Different approaches and perspectives on 20 an issue are sometimes necessary and will assist in 21 developing the recommendations. It's important to 22 remember as the papers are completed and shared that the 23 views expressed in the papers are those of the authors 24 and not necessarily those of the Commission or the 25 Commissioner.

1 The purpose of the papers is to identify 2 and discuss the major historical legal policy and 3 operational issues related to avoiding violence in 4 similar circumstances. 5 The papers are expected to provide 6 background and context as well as to inform the 7 recommendations that will be included in the final 8 report. I am not bound by any of the views of 9 perspectives in the papers in preparing the final report. 10 Now, some will view the research and 11 general policy agendas too general or broad, and others 12 will consider it too narrow. In my view, that's a 13 healthy reflection of the various perspectives of the 14 different interests that are represented at this Inquiry. 15 As always I welcome your comments or 16 suggestions regarding any aspect of the Commission's work 17 or plans. In the past I've asked you to bring your views 18 to our lead counsel Mr. Derry Millar and, of course, I 19 still encourage you to do that. 20 In addition, I now invite you to direct 21 any questions or comments you may have regarding Part 2 22 of the Inquiry to Mr. Nye Thomas, our Director of Policy 23 and Research. 24 That's it. Thank you. 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Commissioner, we have

1 Carl Tolsma on the stand. And I know that I had closed 2 my examination last day, but some further documents have 3 come to our attention and I request permission to reopen 4 the examination prior to the commencement of the cross- 5 examinations. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 8 9 CARL OTTO TOLSMA, Resumed 10 11 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 12 Q: Mr. Tolsma, you spoke to us last day 13 concerning the efforts by the Stoney Point First Nation 14 Number 43, to negotiate via the Kettle Point Band Council 15 with the Federal Government and to govern the community. 16 And some documents have come to our attention which may 17 assist in refreshing your memory with respect to some 18 further particulars of that time period. 19 And the time period I'm addressing 20 particularly is 1993 through 1994. And the first 21 document I'd like you to have a look, and I believe you 22 have a copy in front of you, it's a document, it's 23 Inquiry Document Number 900-0014 and it's a series of 24 documents dated May 6th, 1993 to the Forest Ontario 25 Provincial Police.

1 And there appears to be your signature at 2 the bottom of the page as Chief Carl Otto George; is that 3 your signature? 4 A: Yes, it is. 5 Q: And I wonder if we might make that 6 the next exhibit. It's a document which is six (6) pages 7 in total with the cover letter or notice dated May 6th, 8 1993 from Stoney Point First Nation Number 43. 9 And you talked earlier about giving notice 10 to the Forest Detachment about your intention to go into 11 what was then the army camp, Camp Ipperwash, and is this 12 a copy of that notice which you provided with -- to the 13 Ontario Provincial Police? 14 A: Yes it is. 15 Q: And I note that the third page of 16 this document is a -- it looks like a press release 17 perhaps, May 6th, 1993. Again it appears to be a 18 signature, your signature as Chief Carl Otto George; is 19 that your signature on the third page. 20 A: Yes, it is. 21 Q: All right. And what this notice is, 22 advising the public is that is the following, this notice 23 is the only comment, quote: 24 "The Stoney Point First Nations people 25 wish to address until all of our people

1 have had time to hear our position. 2 1. We have come home in the name of 3 our people, tradition and custom. 4 2. We are not claiming the Stoney 5 Point Reserve Number 43 in the name of 6 only those uprooted, but also in the 7 right of the first and second and third 8 generation children whose parents and 9 grandparents have been victimized by 10 the taking of their lands, farms in 11 1942. 12 3. We faxed the various ministers 13 responsible for the great injustice our 14 peoples have suffered and are awaiting 15 communications with them in our 16 reoccupation. 17 4. We have done this legally. 18 5. A copy of "The Law Protecting our 19 Lands and our Identity" will be issued 20 on Monday, May 10th, 1993. 21 6. We request all outside First 22 Nations "To stay away from our legal 23 takeover that misrepresentation or 24 civil disobedience may not occur". 25 7. We will advise the public in the

1 immediate area of our actions subject 2 to a formal address on Monday, May 3 10th, 1993 after other landowners from 4 Stoney Point Number 43 have had a 5 chance to meet with our council and 6 legal representatives. 7 8. We are video recording our actions 8 and taking these precautions to ensure 9 accurate attempts are made to all 10 concerned and for the safety of all 11 parties. 12 9. We are not hindering the elected 13 Kettle Point Council or people from 14 joining us, "but they do not represent 15 us in any way, shape or form." 16 Now, did that, in fact, represent the 17 position of the people whom you represented in May of 18 1993 -- these positions? 19 A: It -- well, we were trying to 20 represent the people that were uprooted. 21 Q: All right. And you indicated that 22 there was a law attached. Now, the next three (3) pages 23 appear to be three (3) pages of a proclamation, it's a 24 little out of order but, in any event, referencing an act 25 for the protection of the Indians in Upper Canada from

1 imposition and the property occupied or enjoyed by them 2 from trespass and injury. 3 This is a proclamation that was issued by 4 the -- under the protection of Indians Act -- sorry, the 5 Indian Protection Act and I note that there is a segment 6 on the first page of that, which references a piece of 7 land which was to be: 8 "Protected pursuant to this legislation 9 starting at Kettle Point in the said 10 township and county, bounded on the 11 north and west by Lake Huron and on the 12 south and east by the lake road lots 13 and 18th and 19th concessions of the 14 said township of Bosanquet reserved for 15 the occupation of the Chippewa Indians, 16 also one (1) other piece or parcel of 17 land as follows being near the mouth of 18 the River Aux Sable and the said 19 township of Bosanquet and county 20 aforesaid and bounded on the northwest 21 by Lake Huron and on the southeast, 22 northeast and northwest -- sorry, 23 southwest, excuse me, -- by the lake 24 road lots and 18th and 19th concessions 25 of the said township of Bosanquet."

1 Now, what did this property description 2 mean to you or refer to you when you issued it with your 3 May 6th, 1993 notice? 4 A: Well, the land that they give the 5 people was -- originally in the beginning, it was bigger 6 than it is right now and slowly it was taken away, so all 7 that really was left was the area where Camp Ipperwash 8 was sitting on. 9 And we were just trying to use the law 10 that they -- they set out for us because the Government 11 said, I forget what paper it is, that the native people 12 could own -- have their own land and they would not be 13 bothered as long as the wind blows, the water runs, and 14 the grass grows. 15 To me, this meant forever. I wish I would 16 have brought that paper with me, but I couldn't find it. 17 But what they say in that -- this is -- 18 what's given to the native people, so why -- why would 19 they want to, you know, take it back and -- because they 20 kept taking land and more land and more land and sooner 21 or later somebody has to fight for what -- what is 22 theirs. So, we're just using it. We just -- at that 23 time, we just used their own laws to through back in 24 their face. That's... 25 Q: And did this -- this property

1 description, did that -- did you understand that property 2 description to include what was then the Camp Ipperwash 3 lands? 4 A: Just the Camp Ipperwash land, yes. 5 Q: And did you understand this property 6 to also include Ipperwash Provincial Park? 7 A: It was supposed to, yes. 8 Q: All right. Thank you. This refers - 9 - the notice refers to a meeting that was supposed to 10 happen on May the 10th, 1993. 11 Do you recall there being any such meeting 12 to address these issues in public? 13 A: There probably was. I just can't 14 remember exactly because there was so many meetings. 15 Q: All right. And the notice also 16 indicates that -- that various ministers responsible were 17 -- were being communicated with by members of your group 18 or on behalf of the Stoney Point First Nation Number 43 19 in relation to this claim. 20 Is that something that you -- you can 21 confirm? 22 A: Well, we sent letters to all of them, 23 yes. 24 Q: Did you receive responses? 25 A: We probably did, because usually do.

1 Q: And was it important to you that 2 there were laws in place in the Canadian legal system 3 that supported, in your view, supported your claim? 4 A: Oh yes. 5 Q: Why -- why is that important to you? 6 A: Well, it just proves right there that 7 they -- this land was set aside for us and then they took 8 it when the war was on, and they said they were supposed 9 to give it back and when they never, then it just proves 10 right there that there was laws in place for this land 11 for the people to live on and they wouldn't give it back, 12 so they're breaking their own laws. 13 Q: And when you gave notice of these 14 actions or your intended occupation to the Ontario 15 Provincial Police, did they raise with you any safety 16 related concerns or any concerns with respect to 17 protection of the public? 18 A: Just as long we didn't block the 19 highways or break any kind of a law. They -- they 20 usually told us what the laws were and they didn't care 21 what we done as long as we didn't break the law, that's 22 all. 23 Q: All right, did they give -- did they 24 advise you that this action would be considered by them 25 to be breaking the law?

1 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 A: I don't think so. 5 Q: All right. Now, the next document I 6 want to draw your attention to... 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Before we move on, 11 let's make that document, please, the next exhibit. 12 THE REGISTRAR: 195. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 195. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And that's the full six 15 (6) page document. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-195: Document No. 9000014 May 18 06/93, letter of Authority to 19 the OPP Forest Detachment 20 from Stoney Point No. 43 21 First Nation signed by Carl. 22 O. George Chief and Maynard 23 T. George, councillor, Re: 24 Occupation of traditional 25 homes.

1 2 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 3 Q: And the next document is a letter 4 dated June 1st, 1993 from Stoney Point First Nation 5 Number 43, attention Mr. Barry Redmond, I believe it is, 6 social and family benefits in Sarnia. 7 Do you have that letter there? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And there appears to be a signature 10 at the bottom of that page, under Chief Carl Otto George; 11 is that your signature? 12 A: Yes, it is. 13 Q: I'd like to make that the next 14 exhibit, please. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-196. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 196. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-196: Document No. 90000483, June 19 01/'93 from Stoney Point No. 20 43 First Nation signed by 21 Carl. O. George, Chief and 22 Maynard T. George, 23 councillor, To Mr. Barry 24 Redmond, Social and Family 25 Benefits, Sarnia, re: Listing

1 of Individuals and families 2 needing welfare assistance at 3 the Stoney Point First Nation 4 Reserve No. 43. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: Now, in this letter there appears to 8 be expressed a concern with respect to the provision of 9 social assistance to the people who were occupying Camp - 10 - part of Camp Ipperwash. 11 Do you recall that -- that issue? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Can you tell the Commission what gave 14 rise to the concern and how you dealt with it? 15 A: Well, in the beginning, a lot of 16 people were out of work and in need of assistance to 17 live, because they -- they had their children there. 18 And in the beginning, Social Assistance on 19 Kettle Point wouldn't deal with them and so they had to 20 go -- we had to ask, like, the head office in Wyoming. 21 And the few people got assistance there and after a while 22 the social service on Kettle Point finally started to 23 help. 24 Q: And what was the result of that 25 effort?

1 A: Well, the few people that needed 2 assistance, they -- they got their assistance after a 3 while. 4 Q: All right. And I note in this letter 5 that you indicate, I'll quote from it: 6 "Further we have legally seized our 7 lands and we are working with the 8 Ontario Provincial Police as well as 9 the RCMP to ensure a legitimacy is 10 enforced." 11 And can you tell us, did you have any 12 communications or involvement with the RCMP in '93 13 concerning this occupation? 14 A: Well, I believe I talked to one (1) 15 from the RCMP. I can't remember his name, but I'm -- I 16 can just vaguely remember speaking to a -- a person from 17 the RCMP. 18 Q: On -- on an isolated occasion? I'm 19 trying to -- 20 A: Maybe -- maybe once or twice. 21 Q: All right. Was that extent of the -- 22 your involvement with the RCMP? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And what was the point of that 25 communication?

1 A: Well, more or less just to -- like, 2 he just wanted to know what we were doing and what we 3 were up to and how long we -- we planned to be there and 4 stuff like that. 5 Q: All right. Now, the -- this letter 6 also refers to a listing of individuals and you refer to, 7 the bottom of the page, five hundred and seventy-four 8 (574) citizens listings of which only eight (8) families 9 need help and had you or someone on your behalf assembled 10 a list of whom you understand -- stood to be proper 11 residents, if you will, to -- or at least entitled to 12 residency at the Aazhoodena territory? 13 A: Maynard T. George is the one that put 14 it together. 15 Q: All right. And just for the record, 16 the last exhibit is Inquiry Number 900483 and I'd like 17 now to move to Inquiry Document Number 9000553. It's 18 entitled, Preliminary Draft Stoney Point Band Membership 19 List, date July 2, 1992. 20 Do you have that document in front of you? 21 A: Yes, I do. 22 Q: And can you tell me, is this the -- 23 the membership list that was attached to the June 1st, 24 '93 letter? 25 A: Yeah, I'm pretty sure it is, yes.

1 Q: And just tell us, in your own words, 2 what this membership list reflects? 3 A: Well, these names here are the heirs 4 and -- that, you know, more or less had a claim to -- to 5 Stoney Point. 6 Q: All right. Can you give us a sense 7 as to what criteria were used or how it was that the, you 8 know, the names were found to be appropriately put on 9 this list? 10 A: Well, Kettle Point has a -- a list 11 and probably -- well, I don't know how Maynard put it 12 together, but more or less he probably used the same list 13 that Kettle Point had. 14 Q: So, this was drawn from the Kettle 15 and Stoney Point Band list? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: But with the criteria that these were 18 errors in your view to entitlement at Aazhoodena? 19 A: Well as far as I can tell this is the 20 same thing of everybody. 21 Q: All right. When you say "everybody"- 22 A: Well, like -- 23 Q: Every -- 24 A: I mean, like every -- everyone that's 25 on the Band list at Kettle and Stoney Point.

1 Q: So, the -- even though it says, 2 Stoney Point First Nations Membership List, you believe 3 that included people from the Kettle Point -- continue. 4 A: Well, just by reading it real 5 quickly, is -- it's pretty -- pretty well the same that 6 the Kettle and Stoney Point has. 7 Q: All right. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 A: There's a few -- there's quite a few 12 names that's left off of here . 13 Q: All right. And perhaps you can just 14 clarify, then, this document -- and I just want to be 15 clear on this -- this document's entitled, Stoney Point 16 First Nations Membership List. 17 So, in your view, is it the Stoney Point 18 First Nations membership list or is it, in fact, a 19 combination of Kettle and Stoney Point members? 20 A: It's a combination. 21 Q: All right. Thank you. Make this the 22 next exhibit, please? 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-197. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-197. 25

1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-197: Document No. 9000553, July 2 02/'92 preliminary draft 3 Stoney Point Band Membership 4 List. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: Now, did you have any dealings with - 8 - with Ron George in relation to attempts at negotiations 9 with the Federal Government and Kettle Point concerning 10 the disposition of the Camp Ipperwash lands? 11 A: Yes, I did. 12 Q: And what capacity did Ron George act? 13 A: Well, he -- he advised us quite a bit 14 of different issues. 15 Q: All right. And I see that the next 16 letter I'd like you to look at is a letter dated 17 September 21, 1993 and it appears to be from Ronald C. 18 George, to Kettle Point First Nation, attention Chief Tom 19 Bressette and it's on his law office letterhead. 20 Now, did you -- did the Stoney Point 21 Nation retain him as a lawyer, in fact? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: I don't -- I don't think so. I think

1 he just offered to give his assistance. 2 Q: All right. And in this letter it 3 indicates as follows: 4 "On Friday September 17, 1993 I met 5 with Chief Carl George and Don Goodwin 6 of E.E. Hobbs (phonetics) and 7 Associates for the purpose of reviewing 8 the matter of the status of the above- 9 noted land claim." 10 Now, can you tell me who Don Goodman -- 11 Goodwin was and what his capacity was there? 12 A: They were like a outfit that went 13 through and looked for documents, but when they were with 14 us, they -- they went to Kettle Point and they -- they 15 done all their records and they put them in order and 16 they photocopied a lot of stuff and when they were trying 17 to help us there, too, all they done was give us the same 18 thing that Kettle Point had. 19 Q: Were they researchers, historical 20 researchers? 21 A: Well, yeah, they were like 22 researchers, yes. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: But, they didn't come up with 25 anything new. All they done was photocopy whatever

1 Kettle Point had. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: And that was the extent of that. 4 Q: And I understand that at this time, 5 there was the beginnings of an agreement between Stoney 6 Point and Kettle Point for Stoney Point to have two (2) 7 members placed onto a negotiation team in relation to the 8 disposition of the Camp Ipperwash lands; is that right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you spoke of this last day and 11 you were one of those members; is that right? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And so in light of the date of this 14 letter, does that assist you as to when, approximately, 15 this negotiation team was assembled? 16 A: It had to be -- well, it was 17 assembled before -- a little before this letter was 18 wrote, but I can't remember exact -- you know, a month 19 and... 20 Q: Okay. So, in or around the fall -- 21 early fall of '93? 22 A: As far as I can remember, yeah. 23 Q: And how long did you remain a member 24 of that negotiating team? 25 A: I don't know, maybe about a year.

1 Q: And what gave rise to your leaving 2 that negotiation team? 3 A: I -- well, there was one (1) person 4 on there that was just giving anybody that was from Camp 5 Ipperwash there at -- was asked to come on -- he's just 6 more or less giving them a hard time. 7 And we made it clear that we were -- 8 didn't want to be put on this negotiating team for -- to 9 argue amongst ourself, but in the end we just said, well, 10 we don't want no more part of it. 11 Some stayed; like I didn't. I just -- I 12 didn't feel like arguing. 13 Q: All right. So, in your view, at 14 least your experience on a negotiation team was not a 15 very productive one; is that fair? 16 A: Well, when we were talking to the 17 Government, it was but, like, we made a lot of headway 18 and brought a lot of things out but when we met, you 19 know, with -- amongst ourselves and I was the one that 20 was doing a lot of arguing and a lot of accusations were 21 thrown at me. 22 So I figured it was in best interest of 23 the negotiating team that I wasn't on there no more, 24 because I'd rather see it start moving ahead than -- more 25 or less we weren't moving anywhere because the same

1 subject was brought up over and over again. And like I 2 was just -- best that I left. 3 Q: And what was the major stumbling 4 block in your view to progress? 5 A: Well, to talk with the Government and 6 bring the issues out about the land and that the land was 7 brought -- given to us and they took it with the War 8 Measure Act and they were supposed to give it back right 9 after the war. 10 And it still wasn't so, you know, the -- 11 the negotiator at that time for the Government, he stood 12 understood all this stuff but then again he made very 13 excuse there was to stall it. But they knew what we 14 wanted and there -- you know, at that time there was no 15 turning back at that time. 16 It was all starting to go forward and no 17 matter how long it took. So, I -- I think we done pretty 18 good except for when I was on the negotiating team and we 19 talked amongst ourselves. 20 Q: Can you tell me the name of the 21 federal Government negotiator? 22 A: Not the first one I can't because I 23 don't remember his name. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: But, he just wouldn't -- he promised

1 everything and give nothing. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: So, we agreed that get rid of him and 4 get somebody else in there that would talk with us. 5 Q: All right. Fair enough. And -- and 6 you've indicated earlier that when you talked amongst 7 yourselves I -- I take it that you mean between Kettle 8 and Stoney Point when you were talking amongst 9 yourselves? 10 A: The people -- like the ones that were 11 on the negotiating team. 12 Q: Okay. And you said that there were a 13 lot of arguing going and that you were doing a lot of the 14 arguing, what was it that you were arguing over? 15 A: Well, there was one (1) person on the 16 negotiating team that was a head more or less that 17 chaired it and he just didn't like our ideas, ideas that 18 we brought forward and he just kept saying that these are 19 here because the Council agreed to it because we're not - 20 - you're not here because I want you here. So, it was 21 stuff like that. 22 Q: And who was this person that you're 23 referring to? 24 A: Norm Shelano (phonetic). 25 Q: Okay. Was he the -- the chief at

1 Kettle and Stony Point Band? 2 A: He was at one time, yes. 3 Q: I would like to make that letter the 4 next exhibit please. 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-198. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-198. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-198: Document No. 9000038 9 September 21, 1993 letter 10 from Ronald C. George, Law 11 Office to Kettle Point First 12 Nation, Attention Chief Tom 13 Bressette re Stoney Point 14 land claim. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 17 Q: Now, did you have any professional 18 dealings in 1993 with -- with Anthony Ross, a lawyer who 19 -- who's here at the Hearing? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And did -- your First Nation -- did 22 the Stoney Point First Nation Number 43 hire Mr. Ross as 23 your lawyer, as the First Nation's lawyer? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. Thank you.

1 Now you indicated that there was some 2 communications with -- with certain politicians. And I 3 would like you to look at a letter dated December 10, 4 1993. It's Inquiry Document Number 90000-64. It's a 5 letter from Rose Marie Ur MP for Lambton Middlesex to 6 Chief Carl O. George. 7 Do you have that letter in front of you? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And it refers -- firstly, did you 10 receive this letter in or around December of '93? 11 A: I probably -- probably did but I -- I 12 just don't recognize it right now. 13 Q: All right. Well, were you at that 14 time living at -- at least as a mail address, R.R. No. 2, 15 Ravens Wood, General Delivery in Forest? 16 A: That's where I was getting my mail, 17 yea. 18 Q: Okay. I would like to make that the 19 next exhibit please. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-199. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-199: Document No. 9000064, 23 December 10/'93 Letter from 24 Rose Marie Ur, MP Lambton 25 Middlesex to Chief Carl O.

1 George re: Land Settlement 2 Dispute between Camp 3 Ipperwash and Stoney Point 4 Reserve. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: This refers to a meeting with Maynard 8 George. I assume that's Maynard T. George of the Stoney 9 Point Reserve on Thursday, December 9th, 1993 in Ottawa 10 in which he expressed his concerns regarding the land 11 settlement dispute between Camp Ipperwash and Stoney 12 Point Reserve. 13 And I'm just -- did -- do you recall 14 whether or not Mr. George attended in Ottawa in or around 15 that time period to review this issue with the Federal 16 politicians? 17 A: Well, he probably did, he took off to 18 Ottawa quite often. 19 Q: Well, is this part of the -- the 20 strategy of your First Nation to communicate with members 21 of the Federal Government to put your case before them, 22 so to speak? 23 A: Well, it was originally what we 24 intended, but then again Maynard T., he just, around 25 about that time he was just starting to do a lot of

1 things on his own without anybody -- telling anybody. 2 Q: All right. Well, let's speak to the 3 -- the First Nations strategy, then, as far as you can 4 speak to it. 5 Was it part of your First Nations' 6 strategy? 7 A: It was part of it, yes. 8 Q: All right. And so were there 9 communications on behalf of the First Nation with Federal 10 ministers and Governmental people? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And what -- what was the result of 13 these various conversations and communications with the 14 Federal Government politicians and Government people? 15 A: Well, at that time they understood 16 and they said that they -- more or less what they were 17 trying to say was they have to deal with the Kettle and 18 Stoney Point Council. 19 Q: All right. And so in other words, 20 they would only negotiate with the official Indian Act 21 band, is that right? 22 A: That's right. 23 Q: And was that problematic from your 24 perspective? 25 A: No, that's what I wanted to see

1 happen. 2 Q: All right. Is that providing that 3 you had representation? 4 A: Well, it didn't matter if I had 5 representation or not at -- with the Kettle Point 6 Council. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Like, if you're referring to Tony 9 Ross, like, the people that was there, like, at -- on 10 Stoney Point -- 11 Q: Well, let me just caution you for one 12 (1) minute. If Mr. Ross was the First Nations' lawyer at 13 this time period, then you need not go into any 14 communications that he had with you or -- or members of 15 the First Nation because of -- 16 A: Okay. 17 Q: -- solicitor/client privilege. If 18 you do go into those communications, you'll waive that 19 privilege. 20 And so you -- and -- and well, in any 21 event -- you may not wish to address the communications 22 with him or about -- from him. 23 A: Okay. No, I don't. 24 Q: All right. Thank you. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: All right. Now, what was the -- were 4 you satisfied with the -- the progress of the 5 negotiations that the Kettle and Stoney Point Band were 6 having with the Federal Government in relation to the 7 disposition of the Camp Ipperwash lands at the end of the 8 day? 9 A: I was satisfied, yes, but it was just 10 that they were -- the thing I wanted to see was, they 11 started to talk and that was one (1) of the things I -- I 12 wanted to see, but it's the way the negotiators for the 13 Government was -- what they were doing. They were -- 14 they were stalling and it took thirteen (13) years before 15 they would even give -- give an inch. 16 Q: Fourteen (14) years from when? 17 A: Well, thirteen (13) years from the 18 time I was on there. 19 Q: Okay. And in your view, did the -- 20 your perception that the Government was stalling and 21 refusing to -- well, stalling on -- on these talks, did 22 that affect your credibility amongst the Stoney Point 23 group? 24 A: It probably did, because I got a lot 25 of arguing, people mad at me because they said things

1 weren't going smoothly and -- but they just didn't 2 understand how things operate. 3 Q: All right. Now, you indicated that 4 you didn't have any difficulty with the Federal 5 Government's position that they would only negotiate with 6 the Indian Act band, but were -- was the Stoney Point 7 First Nation at the same time seeking to -- to gain 8 autonomy in relation to the provision of services, for 9 example, within the community from the Indian Act band? 10 A: The Kettle Point? 11 Q: Yes. Were you -- 12 A: Probably were, yeah. 13 Q: And I wonder if you would look at the 14 letter dated January 28, 1994. It's Inquiry Document 15 Number 9000069. It's a letter from members -- it would 16 appear from the Chief and council of Stoney Point First 17 Nation to Mr. Richard Jaques (phonetic), Ontario Regional 18 Director, Medical Services Branch. 19 And the second paragraph indicates as 20 follows: 21 "We hereby inform you that as of the 22 date of this correspondence, your 23 Ministry is on notice to cease any 24 further negotiations concerning the 25 health services interest of the Stoney

1 Point First Nation and its membership 2 thereof. 3 We further demand that any and all 4 future concerns of the health services 5 of the Stoney Point peoples must be 6 directed to the attention of and 7 resulting full participation in 8 negotiations of the chief and Council 9 of the members of the Stoney Point 10 First Nation Number 43." 11 And on the second page, is that your 12 signature under Carl George, Chief? 13 A: Yes, it is. 14 Q: And I see that it was copied to the 15 Minister of Health and Welfare, Canada and to the 16 Honourable John Chretien, Prime Minister. 17 Now, can you just tell me what gave rise 18 to this letter? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: I'm just trying to remember, but... 23 Q: You might look at the first 24 paragraph. It might refresh your memory. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: I think what -- like Maynard T. put 4 this letter together and I think what had in mind is 5 trying to get more or less some help and to -- I guess 6 the main thing was to get -- to know that we were there. 7 Q: In January of '94, this is your -- 8 the first winter season that -- that the Stoney Point 9 people occupied Camp Ipperwash, right? 10 A: Yeah, yes. 11 Q: And maybe you could just tell us, 12 what was the state of affairs in terms of running water, 13 hydro, services at -- to the people who were occupying? 14 A: Well, we didn't have any running 15 water. It was -- it was cold, very cold and the people 16 had -- well, they had a pretty rough time. 17 We just had wood stoves to keep warm with. 18 Like I said, at that time I think the -- well, they were 19 asking for assistance, social service, but I think Kettle 20 Point kicked in about that time for some of them. 21 Like everybody wasn't on it. It was only 22 a very few with children and the main thing was with the 23 people with the children that's the ones that we were 24 trying to more or less take care of first. 25 Q: Hmm hmm.

1 A: And -- but still, even until they had 2 assista -- it was still very hard for them. 3 Q: Did -- did your community also 4 receive assistance from the local community or from 5 people outside of the community, outside the aboriginal 6 community? 7 A: From outside the community, yes. 8 Q: Can you tell us a little bit about 9 that? 10 A: Well, like, when we went to Detroit, 11 there was Maynard T., Robert George, Nobby (phonetic), 12 myself and I think it was Rose Manning. 13 We went to a native centre there to speak 14 and just more or less to educate people out there and 15 after we were finished then they -- they already had like 16 clothing put together, they had dried foods put together 17 and they sent that back when we came back. 18 Q: And did you also -- were you -- was 19 your community in need of building materials? 20 A: Yes. We went to the unions I think 21 CAW, I believe it was, and they set up -- they done some 22 fund raising and they set up, like, aa account in a 23 lumber store and -- Watford I believe and I think there 24 was maybe six (6) people. There was enough money that 25 they raised to build like six (6) little shacks. Enough

1 to get through the winter with. 2 Q: Okay. I would like to make that last 3 letter dated January 28, 1994 the next exhibit please. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-200. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-200: Document No. 9000069, January 7 28/'94 Letter from Stoney 8 Point No. 43 First Nation To 9 Mr. Richard Jock, Ontario 10 Regional Direction, Medical 11 Services Branch, Health & 12 Welfare Canada re: 13 Proposed pre-transfer and 14 transfer of health services 15 Stoney Point First Nation 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: Now, there's a letter in front of you 19 that's dated May 3rd, 1994. It's addressed to the 20 Honourable Ronald A. Irwin, Minister of Indian Affairs 21 Canada from Ross, Barrett and Scott. 22 You've already indicated that Mr. Ross was 23 your lawyer, at least the First Nations' lawyer in this 24 regard? 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: The front page is a faxed sheet dated 4 May 3, 1994, that might help. 5 A: May 25th? 6 Q: May 3rd. 7 A: 3rd. Okay. I got it here. 8 Q: All right. Just turn the second 9 page. That's a letter -- perhaps you could just take a 10 moment to review it but it says, and essentially the 11 following: 12 "For approximately one (1) year Members 13 of the Chippewa and Kettle and Stoney 14 Point who have now identified 15 themselves as a Stoney Point First 16 Nation Number 43, have been seeking my 17 counsel primarily with respect to the 18 return of the lands which were taken by 19 Canada for the creation of Camp 20 Ipperwash back in 1943. 21 I have been presented with petitions 22 signed by one thirteen (113) Band 23 Members of which one oh four (104) have 24 Band numbers and the other nine (9) 25 although they are part of the Stoney

1 Point First Nation do not have Band 2 numbers. 3 The document preamble to in petition 4 speaks for itself. And on behalf of 5 all signatories I ask that this 6 document be given urgent and serious 7 consideration recognizing that this 8 matter relates to the Ontario region, I 9 am taking the liberty of forwarding 10 copies of this letter and the document 11 book to Audrey Doerr Regional Director 12 General. 13 I trust that you will find it 14 convenient to get back to me in -- in 15 the not too distant future." 16 Now, was this something which was part of 17 the First Nation's strategy to get this matter before 18 Ottawa? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And do you recall was there any 21 response from the Honourable Ronald Irwin or anyone on 22 his behalf to this letter? 23 A: There probably was because every time 24 we wrote a letter we usually got a response back. 25 Q: And can you recall -- was it -- what

1 type of a response you received? 2 A: Usually it was just a very -- 3 something very short. I can't recall exactly what the 4 response was but usually we did get a response back what 5 was usually, like I said, very -- something short like 6 one paragraph explaining, like, the Minister was made 7 aware of this and it was probably done by his secretary 8 or something like that. 9 Q: All right. And as a result of these 10 efforts then, was there any meaningful movement by Canada 11 to address the issues raised by this letter? 12 A: Not -- not that I could tell at that 13 time. 14 Q: All right. I would like to make that 15 the next exhibit please. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-201. 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-201: Letter dated May 3rd, 1994 19 addressed to the Honourable 20 Ronald A. Irwin, Minister of 21 Indian Affairs Canada from 22 Ross, Barrett and Scott. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: Now, I would like to go next to a

1 letter dated August 3rd, 1994 so some four (4) months or 2 so after this May 3rd letter. And it's a letter to the 3 Honourable Ronald A. Irwin, Minister of Indian Affairs 4 and Northern Developments, from Chief Carl George. 5 And I wonder if you could just have a look 6 at that letter and do you recall sending this letter to 7 Ronald Irwin and also to the Prime Minister and the 8 Minister of Defence? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: Again, I'd just have to say I 13 probably did, but I just -- a lot of these letters, I 14 don't recognize any more because I probably did. 15 Q: All right. And what was the purpose 16 of you writing as Chief of Stoney Point First Nations to 17 the Minister of Indian Affairs? 18 A: What was the meaning? 19 Q: Yes, why -- what was the meaning? 20 A: Well, more or less to get their 21 attention. And even if I was -- wasn't the -- the real 22 chief, I know I signed a lot of things as chief, but more 23 or less to me that was just like a spokesman, but the 24 point was to get their attention and to just make them 25 understand what was going on and more or less to get

1 dealing with the problems. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: That was my whole intention of 4 everything. 5 Q: And in this letter, you express some 6 critical sentiments with respect to the Canadian 7 Government and its handling of -- of aboriginal issues? 8 A: Yeah, I probably did. 9 Q: I'd like to make this the next 10 exhibit, please? 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-202. 12 13 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-202: Document No. 9000124, August 14 3rd, 1994, from Chief Carl 15 George, Stoney Point No. 43 16 to Hon. Ronald A. Irwin, 17 Minister of Indian Affairs 18 & Northern Developments re: 19 Stoney Point First Nations 20 No. 43 return of Land. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: I'd like you next to look at a letter 24 from the Minister of National Defence, the Honourable 25 D.M. Collenette to Mr. Carl George and it's -- doesn't

1 appar to be dated, but there's a handwritten date of 2 September 21, 1994 so a month and a bit after you sent 3 your August 3rd letter. 4 And this -- firstly, do you recall likely 5 receiving this letter from the Minister of National 6 Defence? 7 A: Well, I probably did but I can't -- 8 like I say, I can't recall a lot of these things. There 9 was many letters that I never really paid attention to a 10 lot of them. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Like, the people -- I just -- when we 13 had our meetings, they were read to the people and more 14 or less put aside to be on file. 15 Q: And -- and well let's make this the 16 next exhibit, please. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-203. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-203: Document No. 9000123, Sept 20 21/'94 letter from Hon. D.M. 21 Collenette, Minister of 22 National Defense to Mr. Carl 23 George re Appropriation of 24 Stoney Point Reserve 25

1 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: And this letter is written in 3 response to your August 3rd, 1994 letter. It indicates 4 that you also sent it to Ron Irwin and there the Minister 5 of National Defence appears to set out the response, at 6 least of his department, to the matters you raise in your 7 August 3rd letter concerning the appropriation of the 8 Stoney Point reserve. 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: And it indicates their position that: 11 "These individuals were compensated for 12 any improvements they made to the land, 13 and case law is established that when 14 the reserve lands are appropriated, 15 sold, otherwise -- or otherwise 16 disposed of, any compensation paid with 17 respect to the value of the underlying 18 land accrues to the Band and not to the 19 individual members of the Band who are 20 residing on the land in question." 21 Now, it also says: 22 "However, while the interests of 23 locatees or other occupiers are 24 subordinate to that of the Band, such 25 persons will have a right to be

1 compensated for any improvements they 2 made to the land. 3 The Kettle and Stoney Point Band as a 4 whole was further compensated with 5 respect to the value of the underlying 6 land." 7 It then goes to indicate that: 8 "The Kettle and Stony Point Band was, 9 and is a Band within the meaning of the 10 Indian Act and is recognized as such by 11 the Government of Canada and while the 12 Indian Act is -- contain provisions 13 which allow the Band members to affect 14 a Band split, I'm not aware of any such 15 action having been taken in the case of 16 the Kettle and Stoney Point Band. In 17 fact, the entity referred to in your 18 letter as a Stoney Point First Nation 19 Number 43 is not a legal [sorry] 20 recognized Band." 21 It also says that: 22 "The government of Canada has a legal 23 obligation pursuant to the 1981 Order 24 in Council to return Camp Ipperwash to 25 the Kettle and Stoney Point Band for

1 its use and benefit as a further 2 addition to their reserve when it is no 3 longer required for military purposes. 4 A joint environmental assessment of the 5 Camp Ipperwash property will be 6 conducted with the Kettle and Stoney 7 Point Band prior to the negotiations on 8 the transfer of lands from the 9 Department of the National Defence to 10 the Band, hence I urge you to 11 communicate your views to the Band 12 Council and Chief Bressette to -- and 13 ensure that those views are reflected 14 in these negotiations." 15 Now, did that set out a satisfactory 16 response to the issues you had been raising on behalf of 17 the Stoney Point First Nation? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And in your view was the -- the 20 matters or the representations made by the National -- 21 Minister of National Defence ultimately carried through? 22 A: Well, with the -- what they -- what 23 National Defence is saying in here, I already knew what 24 they would say and it was true that we weren't a 25 recognized band because we couldn't be.

1 To -- when they were saying that they 2 would -- Kettle and Stoney Point was dealt with whenever, 3 that part there -- it's an easy way out for them because 4 I think quite a few years ago back in, oh geez, I think 5 it was '80 or before that, they got a -- a settlement for 6 what reason, for the -- for the land and I think that's 7 what they were more or less hitting on. 8 Q: The $2.5 million settlement? 9 A: The 2.5 million, yes. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: But that wasn't a -- a settlement for 12 everything, that was -- I think it had to do something 13 with the back rent. 14 Q: Now, it indicates here that the 15 Government of Canada would return the reserve when it -- 16 when it -- when the Camp Ipperwash was no longer required 17 for military purposes. Now, in your view, as of 1994, 18 was Camp Ipperwash still required for military purposes? 19 A: No, because the -- the Military 20 wasn't there. It was just cadets. It was just training 21 of cadets. 22 And, like, after the war they said they 23 were going to give it back, but in here they say that for 24 military purposes -- the only military purpose I seen 25 there -- when I worked there was on weekends, like when

1 the RCRs would come in and do training or the OPPs would 2 train their dogs, but mainly it was just summer time. It 3 was open only in the summer time for the cadets -- the 4 training of the cadets. 5 Q: And so in your view then, as of 1994, 6 what was the holdup with respect to returning the land? 7 A: I -- well, the Military, as far as I 8 can understand, they just wanted to hang onto the land 9 and they give every excuse there was so they wouldn't 10 have to give it up right away. Like, they -- in here 11 they say for military purposes, but again they didn't 12 have any military exercising there. 13 Q: And how did that sit with the people 14 at Stoney Point? 15 A: Well, they -- they felt the same way. 16 Like, they wanted to see the land returned and everybody 17 knew that there was no Military there for years. Even 18 Kettle and Stoney Point Council, like, we all grew up 19 knowing this and everybody understood the same -- the 20 same thing, like, they're going to stall as much as they 21 can. They -- they promised to give it back after the war 22 and still there's nothing given back. All there was is 23 promises. 24 Q: And in your view, as of late 1994 25 then, this continual stalling that you've described in

1 the promise to return the land when, in your view, there 2 were no longer military purposes to justify it being 3 kept -- 4 A: That's right. 5 Q: -- did that contribute at all, or was 6 that having an emotional impact on the people who were 7 still waiting for this land to be returned at Stoney 8 Point? 9 A: Frustrations always was there, but 10 then again after a while you get used to the frustration. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: So there wasn't, you know, really -- 13 what would I say -- anything to give the people a push. 14 Like, everybody was getting used of hearing the stalling 15 tactics and they just more or less didn't care anymore 16 because they said anything that comes out of the National 17 Defence, the Government, ignore it because they won't -- 18 they will not really give anything. All they're going to 19 do is promise stuff. 20 And a lot of people were just getting 21 frustrated and they were just getting used of hearing all 22 these excuses and that -- I guess that's why I was 23 pushing so hard to get something started, like, the 24 Government talking to the Chief and Council. That was 25 the main idea and there was a lot of people that had the

1 same -- same idea. 2 Q: And as at the -- the time that you 3 left Stoney Point as Chief, what was the barometer of 4 emotions at that point? 5 A: Well, a lot of people were -- they 6 didn't like how I was doing things and they wanted to do 7 things on their own. And I disagreed with it because I 8 said it wasn't their proper way to do it and a lot of 9 people were just doing whatever they wanted to do 10 anymore. 11 Q: And when you say, doing what "they 12 wanted to do," is this symptomatic in your view of -- of 13 the fact that the attempts made by you to do things 14 properly didn't seem to be returning the land very 15 quickly? 16 A: Well, it didn't have anything to do 17 with returning the land, it was -- the reason why I left 18 was a lot of people were, more or less, taking advantage 19 of other situations like -- like, when we went and spoke 20 we tried to educate a lot of people out there and there 21 was a lot of people that -- I wouldn't say a lot, but 22 there were some people that were using -- using this to 23 their advantage of more or less fund raising and they 24 were just keeping the money for themselves. 25 And it was taking advantage of other

1 people and I didn't agree with it. And that brought a 2 lot of arguing towards me and there was a lot of other 3 people that just didn't -- I guess, in their way of 4 thinking I wasn't made for -- they just didn't want to 5 listen to me anymore. They wanted to do things their own 6 way because they thought maybe I wasn't doing it 7 properly, not moving fast enough I guess. 8 Q: All right. I'd like to make that 9 letter from the Minister of National Defence the next 10 exhibit, please? 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-203. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Oh, we've -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's already 14 an exhibit. 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Okay. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: Now, on the last -- last day, you 19 indicated that you had received a newspaper clipping with 20 handwriting which you interpreted as a -- as threatening. 21 Did you find that newspaper clipping? 22 A: Yes, I did. 23 Q: And can you please describe for us, 24 what is handwritten on this newspaper clipping? 25 A: It's got a -- a clipping of cadets

1 holding a gun and it's written in red marker, I imagine 2 that's what it is. It's: 3 "You're no chief, you stupid jerk." 4 Q: All right. And the article that it's 5 written on top of is entitled, Suspicious Fires Damage 6 Buildings at Military Camp, by Paul Morden at the Sarnia 7 Observer"? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And is this -- let me just show you 10 the document, but is this newspaper document exactly the 11 way you received it in the mail or has there been any 12 alterations to it? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: It's the same way I received it. 16 Q: I'd like to make this the next 17 exhibit, please? 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-204. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-204: Sarnia Observer article 21 Suspicious Fires Damage 22 Buildings at Military Camp, 23 sent to Carl George with 24 notation "You're No Chief, 25 You Stupid Jerk."

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is there a 2 date on that document? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: We're just confirming, Mr. Tolsma, 8 that that is the newspaper article that you provided to 9 me this morning. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Thank you. Now, what do you think 12 gave rise to these sentiments being expressed to you in 13 this form? 14 A: Well, it all has to do with the way 15 some of the people were. They wouldn't listen and at 16 that time. 17 Like I said, a lot of -- there was a few 18 people that were going out and talking to other people. 19 And what I wanted to do was educate people and there's a 20 few that were going out and just, like, fundraising and 21 keeping money for themselves for their own purposes and 22 that's not what I intended. 23 So, I -- I got all -- a lot of other 24 people to spread the word that they weren't supposed to 25 talk with these people because they were just there to

1 line their own pockets and that's not what I had 2 intended. 3 Q: And do you recall the -- who these 4 people were, specifically, who you characterize this way? 5 A: Yes. Yes. 6 Q: Who were they? 7 A: It was Maynard T. George, his sisters 8 Janet Cloud and Noreen Kewageshig. They were going up 9 north and talking with people and doing a lot of 10 fundraising and the money would never come back for what 11 we needed and they just more or less kept it. 12 Q: Now, this article I see is about some 13 problems that apparently occurred at the military camp in 14 relation to the fires being allegedly set and can you 15 tell us what -- what -- what that was about? 16 A: Well, I think what they were trying 17 to do was make it like someone else sent it and they were 18 just using the clipping. 19 But, like I said last -- the first time I 20 was here, my oldest son was married to Maynard T.'s 21 daughter, Marsha and when I received this in the mail, 22 there was like a small child's handwriting addressing the 23 letter and she -- Marsha looked at it and she said, what 24 -- let me have a closer look at that, she says, that's my 25 niece's handwriting. She says, I know this handwriting.

1 So, I open it up and that -- this clipping 2 is what I found in there and I only figured like they 3 tried to make it like someone else sent it and -- because 4 at that time I think I was spreading the word to -- not 5 to -- for anyone to give them any money any more. 6 Q: And did you happen to keep that 7 envelope? 8 A: I did for quite a while, but I just - 9 - I couldn't find it. 10 Q: All right. And my question was, to 11 an extent, aimed at the content of the newspaper article 12 as opposed to the handwriting on it. And this newspaper 13 article reports that there were outhouses and storage 14 buildings at Camp Ipperwash having been damaged by fire 15 and vandalism. 16 And I take it that there were some 17 allegations that this was committed by people within your 18 group and you responded that they were not involved in 19 those fires. 20 Now, do -- can you shed some light as to 21 these events? 22 A: Well there was two (2) -- there was 23 one (1) outhouse. Like I don't know if anybody's ever 24 been on Camp Ipperwash but at -- in the back part there's 25 an inland lake and when the cadets are there they go on

1 top of, like, this big sand hill and they use this cable 2 to slide across to the other side and there's a outhouse 3 there and it was like -- it was -- it is fairly big. 4 And there was a lot of dead grass around 5 it and there was another one over in the trailer park, 6 like where the -- in the summer time the instructors 7 would bring their trailers in and they would it's a 8 campground for -- for the RCR's and the ones that are 9 teaching the cadets and there's an outhouse there. 10 And at that time someone must have set the 11 grass on fire. Because these buildings were, these 12 little outhouses were -- oh, they were old so when they 13 burnt they -- it was just like putting a match to paper. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: So, there was a lot of dead grass 16 around these areas and anybody would set a match to this 17 -- this grass, these buildings would go in flame -- up in 18 flame which they did. 19 Q: And was it -- do you believe it was 20 someone or anyone from your group that was responsible 21 for the fires referred to in this article? 22 A: Well, at that time I don't -- I asked 23 everybody and they said we weren't even around that area. 24 Like, a lot of people would come in -- like non-Native 25 and, you know, they wanted to go canoeing or just to look

66
  1  around in which we let a lot of people come in there and
  2  just to look around and go canoeing.
  3                 But after a while I found out like they
  4  were just in there to snoop around and but -- you know, I
  5  said well let them, we have nothing to hide.
  6                 And these fires, I just -- I asked
  7  everyone and they said it wasn't them and they were --
  8  were all in certain spots, you know, at their trailers or
  9  wherever they were staying and they just -- they denied
 10  that they started them.  
 11                 So I, you know, I couldn't say for sure
 12  who started it.  I checked it all out as best as I could
 13  and they said they never did it so I -- I have to go on
 14  that.
 15                 Q:   Thank you.  
 16                 MS. SUSAN VELLA:   That completes my
 17  examination, Commissioner.
 18                 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN:   Thank you,
 19  Ms. Vella.
 20                 I think this would be a good time.  We'll
 21  take a morning break and we'll start the cross-
 22  examination right after.
 23                 THE REGISTRAR:   This Inquiry will recess
 24  for fifteen (15) minutes.
 25

1 --- Upon recessing at 11:46 a.m. 2 --- Upon resuming at 12:04 p.m. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 5 resumed. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 7 Klippenstein...? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Good morning, 11 Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning. 14 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Good morning, 15 Mr. Tolsma. 16 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN. 19 Q: I'm one of the lawyers for the Estate 20 of Dudley George and brothers and sisters of Dudley 21 George. We've heard evidence earlier in this Inquiry 22 that in 1827 the Crown signed a Treaty with your people. 23 And that in that Treaty, the Crown committed and 24 guaranteed that the original Stoney Point Reserve which 25 included the lands that later became the Park and the

1 army base, would in fact be Native lands in perpetuity. 2 Do you accept or agree with that evidence? 3 A: You said later -- later the Park? 4 Q: Should I repeat the question for you? 5 A: Yeah, just at the beginning there. 6 Q: As I said, we've heard evidence that 7 in 1827 the Crown signed a treaty with your people and 8 that in that treaty the Crown committed and guaranteed 9 that the original Stoney Point Reserve which included the 10 lands that later became the Park and the army base would 11 in fact be Native lands in perpetuity? 12 A: Well the -- the Park and -- didn't 13 come later. It was -- it was all there in one (1) 14 package which they gave. 15 Q: And you mentioned something about 16 that in part of your testimony the other day and I want 17 to ask you about that. I believe in your testimony that 18 you said that what became the Ipperwash Park lands and 19 the army camp lands were in your mind are one in the 20 same. 21 Is my recollection on that roughly 22 correct? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And from what you've just said, I 25 understand that you accept that that unity of those lands

1 is also set out in the treaty; is that your 2 understanding? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: In your testimony the other day, you 5 also discussed a letter that was signed by you in which 6 you talked about your peoples' right to -- and then this 7 -- you use the phrase, "exclusive enjoyment and use" by 8 the Stoney Point First Nations Reserve. 9 Do -- do you recall that phrase? 10 A: Yes. Yes. 11 Q: I'm going to suggest to you that part 12 of the promises that were made in the Treaty of 1827 was 13 that your reserve lands would be your -- for your 14 peoples' exclusive enjoyment and use. 15 Would you accept or agree with that 16 suggestion? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And in your testimony at the end of 19 last day you were asked whether you had any suggestions 20 for the Commission and you said the Government should 21 fulfill the agreements; is that right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Would the agreements that you had in 24 mind include the Treaty of 1827? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And also at the end of your testimony 2 the other day you were asked what should happen to the 3 Park lands and the Army Camp lands and you said they 4 should be given back; is that right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Would you agree with me that giving 7 back the Park lands and the Army Camp lands would be 8 taking a step towards repairing and honouring the Treaty 9 of 1827 10 A: Yes, it would. 11 Q: In your several years of speaking out 12 about the Stoney Point Reserve lands, did anyone from the 13 Provincial Government or the Federal Government or the 14 Department of National Defence or the OPP ever mention 15 the 1827 treaty in discussion with you that you can 16 recall? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And over those years, did anyone from 19 the Provincial Government or the Federal Government or 20 the Department of National Defence or the OPP ever refer 21 to the 1827 treaty in any document that you can recall? 22 A: Not that I can recall, no. 23 Q: Would you agree with me that the 24 confrontation and violence that surrounded the death of 25 Dudley George would not have happened if the Crown had

1 honoured its treaty commitments to recognize the original 2 Stoney Point Reserve as native lands in perpetuity? 3 A: That's right. 4 Q: Would you support a recommendation by 5 this Commission at the end of its process that the 6 Provincial Government give up any claim it might have to 7 the Ipperwash Park lands and other parts of the original 8 Stoney Point Reserve and work toward the full and formal 9 return of those lands to native people? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And would you agree with me that 12 honouring those treaty land commitments would be a way 13 for the Provincial Government to move towards a better 14 relationship with your people? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Thank you, Mr. Tolsma, I have no 17 further questions. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 19 Mr. Rosenthal...? 20 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 22 Q: Good morning -- good morning, Mr. 23 Tolsma. 24 A: Good morning. 25 Q: My name is Peter Rosenthal, I'm one

1 (1) of the Counsel for a group of descendants of Dan and 2 Melva George under the name Aazhoodena and George Family 3 Group. 4 Now, you've told us a little bit about 5 your mother being appropriated -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- from Stoney Point and I'd just 8 like to ask you a little bit more about that if I may, to 9 begin. 10 You -- you told us that she was given an 11 ultimatum by the Military, move within a week or you'll 12 be moved, is that correct? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And so it was on very short notice 15 that she had to move, evidently? 16 A: Yes. Well, the way she explained it 17 to me was, when she came home from school there was a lot 18 of people -- a lot of Army guys and a lot of Army 19 equipment -- trucks moving around, and she was wondering 20 what was going on. And she asked her father what was 21 going on and he couldn't really tell her. 22 She said she still could picture him with 23 tears in his eyes and he said, We have to move. And he 24 said he had a friend on Kettle Point that he could buy a 25 little bit of land off of and -- and -- which helped him

1 move the house down there. 2 Q: So, they actually moved their house 3 that was at Stoney Point reserve to Kettle Point? 4 A: Kettle Point, yes. 5 Q: Now, we've heard a bit I think, from 6 you, and much from other witnesses that this forced 7 relocation of people created all sorts of bitterness with 8 respect to both groups of people, the Kettle Point people 9 who seemed to resent people coming in and the Stoney 10 Point people who resented being forcibly moved. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you heard about some of that from 13 your mother, I gather -- 14 A: Oh, yes. 15 Q: And I would suggest to you that, 16 unfortunately, the bitterness created by that is still 17 evident today in various ways; is that correct? 18 A: When you talk about it, like with -- 19 in -- if you're at meetings and stuff and a lot of -- 20 yes, it's still there, because a lot of people will speak 21 out and say, well, you people can just move back. 22 You know, move off our reserve. I heard 23 that, oh, a few years ago and it still exists, yes. 24 Q: And previous to the appropriation in 25 1942, I gather that the relationships between people on

74
  1  the two (2) reserves were very harmonious; isn't that
  2  fair to say?
  3                 A:   It was, yes, because my mother said
  4  that they used to come down, like there used to be a
  5  church on Kettle Point right at the corner there and that
  6  it still stands today and they said they used to get
  7  along with everybody and used to shake hands and welcome
  8  everybody and every -- there was no hatred between
  9  anybody at that time and everybody got along great.
 10                 Q:   So, we can allay all the problems of
 11  that type at the feet of the Department of National
 12  Defence for seizing that land in 1942, it seems.
 13                 A:   Yes. 
 14                 Q:   Now, then there's the question of
 15  what can we do in the future.  We're here with that
 16  bitterness still there and there's a question of who
 17  should get the lands if they are returned.  
 18                 They're sort of de facto returned at the
 19  moment in some sense, it's occupied by First Nations
 20  people not the military, but there has to be some
 21  regularization of this and as you know, and as you've
 22  alluded to, there's much dispute between the people as to
 23  whether it should return to the descendants of the people
 24  who were appropriated or should it return to the joint
 25  Kettle and Stoney Point Band Council representing all the

1 people from either reserves. 2 So, that's background to my question to 3 you, sir. 4 A: Well, as it stands today, like, 5 everybody's intermarried now and everybody is just one 6 (1) as far as I'm concerned now. With the arguing and 7 stuff, we have to -- we have to live with that for the 8 rest of our lives and there's nothing you can really do 9 about it and you get that no matter where you live but -- 10 Q: But, I would like to suggest to you a 11 possible remedy for that, and see if you think it might 12 help, namely the Stoney Point people who feel a special 13 connection to that land, they get the land. 14 But, because of the harm that they've 15 caused over the years, the Federal Government gives so 16 much monetary compensation to the other people and to the 17 Stoney Point people that everybody walks away happy. 18 Would something -- 19 A: Well -- 20 Q: -- in that direction be reasonable? 21 A: Well, I have to explain now, a lot of 22 the Elders are -- are not here no more -- 23 Q: Yes. 24 A: Like they're -- there is maybe at the 25 most, as far as I know, there's maybe two (2) or three

1 (3) left, but to give them the land, they wouldn't want 2 it. 3 Q: Well, I -- I talk about the 4 descendants of the Stoney Point -- 5 A: Well, the descendants, it can be 6 returned but in my way of thinking right now, like the 7 Park and the beach front is usable. But the built-up 8 area right now, it's -- it's so much damage, like the 9 chemicals that's buried there and the -- you don't know 10 what's buried in there. 11 And I wouldn't really want to see anybody 12 live there, because if you ever -- the Government says, 13 okay, we'll clean it. And if you -- okay, they say it's 14 clean. You start growing a garden and stuff, all those 15 chemicals will come up into your garden and you eat that 16 stuff and the next generation could have problems, health 17 problems and -- 18 Q: Perhaps, I could rephrase my 19 questions, sir. Would you agree that it would be 20 appropriate for the Federal Government and Provincial 21 Government, perhaps to some extent, to give enough to the 22 Kettle and Stoney Point people to make everyone happy in 23 some sort of settlement -- 24 A: Oh, yes. 25 Q: -- with respect to land and money?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that might erase some of the 3 bitterness that is still -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: -- present from 1942? 6 A: It would. 7 Q: Thank you. And would you agree that 8 some of the problems that we've heard about that, and in 9 particular from your testimony too, about internal 10 problems and dissension among the people who began in 11 1993 to occupy the Stoney Point Reserve to re-occupy it, 12 that much of that was caused by the fact that there 13 wasn't any formal organization, there wasn't any formal 14 monies available and so on. 15 It was a difficult situation and that led 16 to tensions; is that a fair summary? 17 A: Yeah. Yes. 18 Q: Now, you told us that you had a map 19 that showed, I believe it was three (3) grave sites, in 20 what was the Ipperwash Park part of this reserve? 21 A: Well I don't have it. We had it when 22 -- like when we were at Camp Ipperwash there. Like the 23 building we built, like the Argument Hall, we called it, 24 I can recall looking at it there and -- but where it is 25 now I -- I couldn't say. But, yeah, I seen it, yes.

1 Q: But there you had seen such a map? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you recall where you got that map? 4 A: Well Maynard T. was our researcher 5 and where he got it I couldn't say. 6 Q: And do you recall approximately when 7 you first became aware of the existence of that map? 8 A: It was sometime in '93. 9 Q: '93. And did you make that known to 10 other people widely that there was some indication that 11 there were at least three (3) grave sites in the Park 12 area? 13 A: Oh, yes. 14 Q: Okay. And including, did you tell 15 any of the Provincial officials or any of the OPP 16 officers or anybody outside the Stoney Point First 17 Nation? 18 A: Well, I can't recall but if -- if we 19 did it wouldn't have been to the OPP's. It would have 20 been to the Government officials. 21 Q: I see. 22 A: I can't remember if we did send the 23 letter or not. 24 Q: I gather that Prime Minister Kim 25 Campbell, during her tenure as Prime Minister, made some

1 promise to your understanding to return the lands; is 2 that correct? 3 A: Well, at the time when -- like she 4 came down there, like in a helicopter, and -- to look at 5 the land and shortly after that she I -- I can't 6 remember how she mentioned it if it was in the newspaper 7 or not, I don't think it was in the newspaper but she 8 said we should be giving this -- this land back, it's no 9 longer needed by the army. 10 But it never went any further than that 11 because after that she -- like her time in the Government 12 ended shortly after that. 13 Q: I see, thank you. I understand that 14 at some time perhaps in February of 1994, there was an 15 incident where a military person stole a flag -- 16 A: A flag, yes. 17 Q: -- from the First Nations people; is 18 that correct? 19 A: Yes. They were the -- they were -- 20 let's see -- they were young RCR's from Quebec and we had 21 flags, oh posted here and there, and they took that flag 22 and at that time they sprayed swastikas on the road with 23 red paint and on the trees and one (1) of the guys that 24 was at the camp with us there, he seen them from a 25 distance.

1 So I went -- at that time I went to 2 Sergeant Major White and he went up to these RCR's and he 3 got the flag back and he apologized and he shipped those 4 guys out shortly after that. 5 Q: And you say in addition to the flag 6 there -- there were swastikas painted on the road? 7 A: There was swastika painted on the 8 road and on the trees in red paint. 9 Q: And were these -- these were large 10 swastikas that you could see from far away? 11 A: Not from a far distance, no. Like, 12 the trees were, say, anywhere from a twelve (12) -- 13 twelve (12) inch tree that are small and but the one (1) 14 you mainly seen was on -- on the road. 15 Q: Yes. And you -- you say that some of 16 the First Nations people saw some Military people 17 actually painting those swastikas? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: What happened to the swastikas? Were 20 they removed, or did the -- 21 A: Oh, yes. 22 Q: Sorry? 23 A: They were removed. 24 Q: They were eventually removed? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: As part of your same discussion with 2 the Military officials? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You told us, sir, that your great- 5 great-grandfather, I believe I have the right number of 6 greats, Levi Johnson, had been one (1) of the chiefs of 7 Stoney Point; is that correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: In fact, you told us that a number of 10 your ancestors had been chiefs at Stoney Point; is that 11 correct? 12 A: Yes, it would. 13 Q: And did they all have the name, 14 Johnson or -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: No. 17 A: Well, in the beginning, like in the 18 War of 1812, it was Wabegonce (phonetic). 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: And then shortly after that, like I 21 mentioned before, it was Oshawnoo. He was from the 22 States and he was given Kettle Point and Wagegonce was 23 given what we know today is Stoney Point. And from 24 there, his son was given the name Johnson, and from there 25 on down the ladder they kept the name Johnson.

1 Q: I see. And they were all chiefs at 2 Stoney Point, specifically, as opposed to Kettle Point, 3 for example, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And so, certainly for many years at 6 least, your family history indicates that there was a 7 separate chief at Stoney Point and the family history 8 indicates it was one (1) of your ancestors, in fact? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And as -- as you know there's been 11 much discussion as to whether or not Stoney Point was or 12 is or should be a separate reserve. 13 A: It -- 14 Q: Now, this would suggest that at 15 least at some point, it was a separate enough reserve to 16 have its own chief; isn't that fair to say? 17 A: Well, both Stoney Point and Kettle 18 Point had their own chiefs. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: But, as -- a lot of people don't -- 21 don't understand, like, even back in 1812 war after the 22 land was given to Wabegonce and Oshawnoo, Oshawnoo 23 married Wabegonce's daughter and that intermarried, so it 24 became one (1) from that point on, but they still had 25 their chiefs on both --

1 Q: Yes. 2 A: -- land bases. 3 Q: Now, I believe you've told us in your 4 testimony the other day and perhaps alluded to it today, 5 too, that you were happy with the Kettle and Stoney Point 6 Band Council taking over the negotiations at some point? 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: But, in fact, during 1993 and '94 and 9 '95 and so on, was it -- weren't the Stoney Point people 10 who were occupying the Camp of the view that they should 11 negotiate with respect to the return of their reserve at 12 Stoney Point? 13 A: A lot of people felt that way. 14 Q: And including -- you expressed views 15 in that direction at that time, did you not? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Yes. Now, I believe it was in 18 November of 2003 that police interviewed you with -- and 19 -- with respect to, perhaps among other things, the 20 helicopter incident; is that correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: So, what did the officers tell you in 23 November of 2003 as to why they wanted to interview you 24 so many years after this event? 25 A: They wanted to more or less get

1 anything that they missed. 2 Q: But, why was that -- was that in 3 anticipation of this Inquiry or for what purpose did they 4 tell you the interview was being conducted? 5 A: They were just trying to find out 6 information, that's all they said. 7 Q: They didn't say why? They didn't say 8 whether it was for a lawsuit or for an Inquiry or for -- 9 A: Well, they said -- 10 Q: -- criminal charge -- 11 A: -- they mentioned there was an 12 Inquiry coming up. 13 Q: Oh, they did, yeah? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: I see. So, they told you there's an 16 Inquiry coming up and they want to find out more about 17 it? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Basically. So, that -- that was the 20 reason that they were re-opening the case, as you 21 understood what -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: -- they were telling you? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And how did the interview get

1 arranged, then? They phoned you up and asked if you 2 would meet with them or what? 3 A: Yeah. I'm pretty sure that's the way 4 it happened, yeah. 'Cause they all had my phone number 5 and that's the way they usually got in touch with me. 6 Q: And the officers who interviewed you, 7 were they officers that you knew prior to November of 8 2003? 9 A: No. 10 Q: No. 11 A: No, they were just -- they were young 12 guys and I didn't know them. So, I really didn't say too 13 much because I don't talk to anybody that I don't know -- 14 or ever seen them around. 15 Q: Now, evidently you told those 16 officers that Abraham George or Abe George or Hamster as 17 he was also known; is that correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: That he had told you that he had 20 fired a shot or fired from a shotgun at the helicopter -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- is that correct? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Now, you had denied any such 25 knowledge years earlier, shortly after the helicopter

1 incident -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- incident, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you had vigorously denied any 6 such knowledge and were reported in newspapers as 7 having -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- denied such knowledge. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And when you were asked by Ms. Vella 12 as to why, I believe you indicated that was out of 13 respect for Mr. Abraham George as an Elder. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: But, sir, do you think that it shows 16 respect for Mr. Abraham George as an Elder to make those 17 allegations after he's deceased and he can't give any 18 explanation or defend himself in any way? 19 A: Well, there's documents and 20 everything. There are reports that was already brought 21 out, anyway. 22 Q: It was going to come out anyway? 23 A: It -- it was already out. 24 Q: I see. Now, were you told that by 25 the officers in the interview?

1 A: No, I heard them. Like I seen the -- 2 a few documents and everybody was talking about it 3 anyway. 4 Q: When did you see such documents, sir? 5 A: I can't remember when, but it wasn't 6 too long ago and I heard, well, everybody knows about it 7 so you might as well just tell the truth now anyway. 8 Q: Are you -- you say it wasn't too long 9 ago. Are you talking after your interview in November 10 2003 that you saw such documents? 11 A: No, no, no, no. Way after that. 12 Q: Way after that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: So, recently within the last couple 15 of months, you -- 16 A: Oh, yes, yes. 17 Q: -- were shown such documents by 18 Commission Counsel, you mean? 19 A: Well, no, is -- it was -- it could 20 have been a police report, I'm not sure. Like, I seen 21 one somewhere but, you know, if you don't pay much 22 attention to it, then you kind of forget where -- where 23 it come from. 24 Q: Now, the other person who you say was 25 with you at the time that you spoke to Abraham George

1 about this incident -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- was a person named Robert George, 4 also -- 5 A: Robert George. 6 Q: -- known as Nobby; is that correct? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And he, unfortunately, is deceased as 9 well. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: So, we can't check your account 12 against anybody else's ac