1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 9th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )    (np)
  5  Katherine Hensel  )    (np)
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein )            The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       ) (np)       George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )  (np)      Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander       (np)       Student-at-Law  
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )   (np)       Kettle Point & Stoney
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Sue Freeborn     )   (np)
 25  Michelle Pong    )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )   (np)       The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )              Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 11  
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  
 15  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 16  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 17  
 18  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 19  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 20  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 21  
 22  Ian Roland       )              Ontario Provincial 
 23  Karen Jones      )   (np)       Police Association &
 24  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 25  Ian McGilp       )   (np)

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  Clem Nabigon     )   (np)
  7  
  8  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
  9  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 10  
 11  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 12  Matthew Horner   )
 13  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 14  
 15  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 16  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 17  Megan Mackey     )
 18  
 19  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 20  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 21  Melissa Panjer   )
 22  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 23  
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 CARL OTTO TOLSMA, Sworn 6 Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 12 7 8 9 10 Certificate of Transcript 245 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-163 Document 4000407 April 04/'93 Letter 4 (4 Pages) TO DND - Correspondence 5 43-004C From Maynard T. George 6 (Researcher) and Carl O. George 7 (Chief) 17 8 P-164 Document 1002409 Map of Ipperwash 9 Provincial Park and area "Welcome to 10 Ipperwash!" Marked by Witness Carl 11 Tolsma, February 09/'05 31 12 P-165 Document 2002259 OPP Letter Re: Request 13 for assistance from the Ministry of Natural 14 Resources Re: Illegal fishing, Lake Huron, 15 near Kettle Point Reserve Oct 16/'87 46 16 P-166 Document 2002643 OPP Letter May 06/'93 17 from J.F. Carson, Staff Sergeant No. 5582, 18 Detachment Commander, Reference: First 19 Nations Occupation - CFB Ipperwash 50 20 P-167 Document 2001199 Briefing note May 21 06/'93 prepared by Inspector T.F. 22 McKenna 'A' Division No. 1 District 23 Re: Native Demonstration, Camp Ipperwash 24 10:00 Hrs May 06/93 (Property of Dept. of 25 National Defence) 59

1 EXHIBITS (cont) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-168 Document 1002409 Page 13, Map of 4 Ipperwash Military Reserve marked by 5 Witness Carl Tolsma February 09/'05 61 6 P-169 Document 2001202 OPP Fax Cover sheet 7 from Supt. T.C. Randall, May 18/'93 71 8 P-170 Document 2000667 OPP letter May 18/'93 9 from E.B. Beacock NO. 2156 Acting Staff 10 Sergeant Re: First Nations Occupation CFB 11 Ipperwash 76 12 P-171 Document 1006450, May 19/'93 letter 13 from Stoney Point First Nations Reserve 14 No. 43 to Ministry of Natural Resources 82 15 P-172 Document 1007802, May 19/'93 Letter 16 to Honourable Ralph Ferguson MP from 17 Chief Carl O. George and Councillor 18 Maynard T. George 84 19 P-173 Document 1007626, Sarnia Observer 20 article "Natives Seize Camp Ipperwash, 21 Wooden Building Moved On Site" May 19/'93 89 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS (cont) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-174 Document 2002549 OPP letter May 20/'93 4 from E.B. Beacock No. 2156, Acting Staff 5 Sergeant to the Supt. OPP Chatham re: 6 First Nations Occupation CFB Ipperwash, 7 Ipperwash Provincial Park 93 8 P-175 Document 2002607, OPP Letter May 22, 9 1993 to the Superintendent, OPP, Chatham 10 from W.C. Watkins No. 7932 re: First Nations 11 Occupation 95 12 P-176 Document 2002603 OPP letter May 23/'93 13 to the Superintendent, OPP Chatham from 14 J.F. Carson, Inspector Re: First Nations 15 Occupation 100 16 P-177 Document 1007797 May 26/'93 "E-mail to 17 Ron Baldwin, from Les Kobayashi, MNR-Parks 18 and Recreation Re: Maynard George Telecon 19 May 26/'93 102 20 P-178 Document 2002612, OPP Documentation 21 of Ipperwash occupation chronology of 22 events: 15 July '92 TO 24 May '93 109 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS (cont) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-179 Document 1007621 Sarnia Observer article 4 June 28/'93 "Bosanquet Wants Quick 5 Settlement of Natives' Camp Ipperwash 6 Occupation" 121 7 P-180 Document 1006004 E-mail from Jayne 8 Layton, MNR Legal Services Branch to 9 Distribution List Re: Final Draft 128 10 Letters - I.P.P. June 01/'93 11:55 A.M. 11 P-181 Document 2001235 OPP Letter June 09/'93 12 (12:50 Hrs) to Superintendent OPP Chatham, 13 from E.B. Beacock NO. 2156 Acting Staff 14 Sergeant Re: First Nations occupation CFB 136 15 Ipperwash, Ipperwash Provincial Park 16 P-182 Document 2002536 OPP Letter June 11/'93 17 (1200 HRS) to Superintendent OPP Chatham 18 from E.B. Beacock No. 2156 acting Staff 19 Sergeant re: First Nations Occupation, 20 C.F.B. Ipperwash, Ipperwash Provincial 21 Park 139 22 P-183 Document 2003514 Interview Report 23 between Carl George and J.K. Potts 24 OPP August 26/'93 151 25

1 EXHIBITS (cont) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-184 Document 2001744 Toronto Globe and Mail 4 article "Band Chief Denies Natives Shot 5 at Coptor" 154 6 P-185 Document 400325 Toronto Star article 7 "Sniper Fires on Military Helicopter 8 August 25/'93 page A10 154 9 P-186 Document 2001717 Toronto Star article 10 "Natives Cry Foul In Coptor Shooting" 11 August 26/'93 156 12 P-187(a) Photo 0326 159 13 P-187 Document 2004113 "Officer Statement 14 Report of Patrick J. Mullin OPP CIB 15 Case NO. 955-10-2003-100 November 03 16 -January '04 159 17 P-188 Document 2001810 Sarnia Observer 18 article "Police Seeking Evidence After 19 Helicopter hit August 25/'93 175 20 P-189 Document 2002488 London Free Press 21 article 'Native Trek To Ottawa To 22 Raise Cash, Profile" 181 23 P-190 Kettle and Stony Point Council letter 24 to Carl George August 27/'93 189 25

1 EXHIBITS (cont) 2 No. Description Page 3 P-191 Document 2002460 OPP letter to the 4 Superintendent OPP Chatham from 5 Sergeant S.J. McDonald No. 4813, 6 January 18/'94 re: First Nations 7 occupation, CFB Ipperwash 198 8 P-192 Document 1010308 e-mail to Ron 9 Baldwin, from Dan Elliott, MNB- 10 Native liaison officer re: Updated 201 11 note on Ipperwash, May 27/'94 12 P-193 Document 2003357 statement of Staff 13 Sergeant K. Bouwman re: Contacts with 14 people living on C.F.B. Ipperwash, 15 November 17/'94, 1155 HRS. 218 16 P-194 Document 1003678 Sarnia Observer 17 article "Outsiders Say They're 18 Staying at Ipperwash" August 03/'95 231 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:05 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, Ms. Vella. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. The Commission calls as its next witness 10 Carl Otto Tolsma. 11 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Tolsma. 12 MR. CARL TOLSMA: Good morning. 13 THE REGISTRAR: Do you prefer to swear on 14 the Bible, affirm or use an alternate oath, sir. 15 MR. CARL TOLSMA: On the Bible. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Would you take the Bible 17 in your right hand please, sir. State your name in full. 18 MR. CARL TOLSMA: Carl Otto Tolsma. 19 THE REGISTRAR: Could you spell your last 20 name for us, please? 21 MR. CARL TOLSMA: T-O-L-S-M-A 22 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 23 24 CARL OTTO TOLSMA, Sworn: 25

1 EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: Good morning, Mr. Tolsma. 3 A: Good morning. 4 Q: I understand that you were formerly 5 known as Carl Otto George, is that right? 6 A: Yes, I was. 7 Q: When did you change your surname to 8 Tolsma? 9 A: I'll have to refer to background 10 paper here. It was around about in '97 roughly. 11 Q: And what were the circumstances that 12 gave rise to changing your surname? 13 A: Well, for years I've been looking for 14 my real father and I found him in '95 and at that time I 15 more or less took his -- I took his last name and that's 16 what I have today. 17 Q: Okay. I noted that you were looking 18 at a piece of paper there? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Could you just tell me what's on that 21 piece of paper? 22 A: It's just my -- my wife wrote this 23 down. It's the reason for changing my name. The day I 24 found my real father and the change of name. Well, she's 25 got it down here, October 16th, '96.

1 Q: Okay. So that's to -- 2 A: She's more -- can pinpoint 3 everything. 4 Q: All right, fair enough, thank you. 5 Now I understand that you were on July 4th, 1951? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: You're married? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And your spouse's name is Shirley 10 Tolsma? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: You have two (2) children? 13 A: Tow (2) boys. 14 Q: And what are there names and ages? 15 A: My oldest one is Carl, Jr., he's 16 thirty-two (32) and my youngest is Michael and he's 17 thirty (30). 18 Q: Thirty (30)? 19 A: Thirty (30), yes. 20 Q: Thank you. What were the names of 21 your parents? 22 A: My mother's name was Barbara; her 23 maiden name was Barbara Johnson, she -- my father's name 24 was Otto Tolsma. 25 Q: Okay. And what were the names of

1 your mother's parents? 2 A: John Johnson and Mary Johnson. 3 Q: And were your maternal grandparents 4 formal -- former residents of the former Stoney Point 5 Reserve? 6 A: That would be Levi -- Levi Johnson. 7 Q: All right. Levi Johnson is who in 8 relation to -- 9 A: My grandfather's father. 10 Q: Fair enough. Did Levi Johnson hold 11 any position of authority? 12 A: Well, he was a chief at one (1) time. 13 Q: Chief of what? 14 A: Well, he was a chief on Stoney Point 15 and his father was a chief and on down the line. It goes 16 back to roughly around the 1800s. 17 Q: All right. Was your great- 18 grandfather a traditional chief or hereditary Chief? 19 A: Traditional? I can't answer that one 20 if he was a traditional chief or not, but like I said, 21 the -- the whole line of my great-grandfathers -- they 22 were all chiefs down there. 23 Q: All right. Thank you. What is your 24 current occupation? 25 A: Right now I'm unemployed. I was

1 driving school buses. 2 Q: All right. What was your occupation 3 between 1980 and 1990? 4 A: I was working as a custodian and -- 5 no, wait a minute, that's after. I was employed -- 6 employed by National Defence. 7 Q: And where you -- what location were 8 you employed at? 9 A: Well, I was at Camp Ipperwash. I was 10 what they call on the bull gang during the summer and 11 during the winter I would work for the engineers. 12 Q: How long did -- were you employed at 13 the Camp Ipperwash facility? 14 A: Roughly around about ten (10) years I 15 worked there. 16 Q: Did your grandparents, to your 17 knowledge, have a location ticket with respect to any 18 parcel of land at the former Indian Reserve Number 43, 19 which I'll refer to as the Stoney Point Reserve? 20 A: Yes. My grandfather did. He had a 21 location ticket and his father before him had a location 22 ticket. 23 Q: I wonder if you would kindly go to 24 your binder of documents, Tab 3, which is part of Inquiry 25 Document Number 4000407 and it is a letter dated Sunday,

1 April 4th, 1993 and on the third page there appears to be 2 your signature. Is that your signature? 3 A: I'm just trying to -- 4 Q: Tab 3. 5 A: Tab 3. 6 Q: And the third page. 7 A: Yes, that's my signature. 8 Q: I'd like to make this the next 9 exhibit, Commissioner. 10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-163. One 11 sixty-three (163). 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One sixty- 13 three (163). 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-163: Document 4000407 April 04/'93 16 Letter (4 Pages) TO DND - 17 Correspondence 43-004C From 18 Maynard T. George 19 (Researcher) and Carl O. 20 George (Chief) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 23 Q: I note that on page 2 of this letter 24 is a list of homeowners in 1942 at Stoney Point Reserve 25 Number 43. That list proceeds onto page 3 with an

1 amendment on page 4, and Item 10 reflects John Johnson 2 and Mary Johnson and were those your relations? 3 A: John Johnson and Mary Johnson were my 4 grandparents. 5 Q: Can you tell me it indicates that 6 they -- they were homeowners and had location tickets -- 7 can you indicate to me what the basis of your information 8 was in -- in preparing this list? 9 A: Preparing what? 10 Q: The list of homeowners that's in 11 front of you? 12 A: Oh. It was just to show that they 13 had a location ticket and they were from that reserve. 14 Q: And where did you find that they had 15 the location ticket? What was the source of your 16 research? 17 A: Where did I find it? If I remember 18 correctly, my mother had my grandfather's location ticket 19 and another lady give me my grandfather's father's 20 location ticket. That would be Gertie (phonetic) 21 Bressette. 22 She -- she had quite a few of those things 23 and she approached me one (1) day and give me a copy of 24 it. So I -- I have Levi's location ticket also. 25 Q: All right. Thank you. Did either of

1 your parents then grow up at the Stoney Point Reserve? 2 A: My mother did. She went to school 3 there as a little girl. And I think it was in '42 that's 4 when National Defence came in and give them a time frame 5 and I think it was one (1) week to pack up and move out. 6 And they give them, oh, I forget the 7 amount, a little bit of money to move their house and buy 8 a small parcel of land to put it on. And if they didn't 9 move within that time frame, they were just pushed out. 10 Q: And did your mother tell you these 11 things? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Did your mother tell you about her 14 childhood at Stoney Point? You said she went to school 15 there? 16 A: Very little. She said she grew up 17 there, she went to school and she said there was -- when 18 you grow up some place and you're used to it and she said 19 she played with a lot of kids. They had to, you know, 20 walk a distance to go to the neighbours and she just had 21 a lot of fun when she was small I guess. 22 Q: Okay. Now you indicated that your 23 mother told you that -- that her family was given a small 24 amount of money to buy a parcel of land. 25 Where were they to buy that parcel of

1 land? 2 A: Yes, they -- they were given a small 3 amount of money to buy land. My grandfather had a friend 4 on Kettle Point which he bought an acre of land and he 5 moved the house down there. And they didn't have much 6 to, you know, put it on a frame, footing and stuff like 7 that. 8 So they just had a team of horses and 9 moved a big rock and set the corner of the house on a big 10 rock on one (1) side and then a rock on the other end and 11 built up the other two (2) corners and how the house sat 12 there. 13 Q: Do you know how much land your 14 grandfather had possessed on the Stoney Point Reserve? 15 A: No. I would have to look back on 16 paperwork and stuff like that to actually find out. 17 Q: Was the land that they bought in 18 Kettle Point comparable to the land they lost at Stoney 19 Point? 20 A: No. Because where they put the house 21 down in Kettle Point, it was put more or less like in a 22 swamp, it was always wet. 23 And my mother, she told me she says she 24 can remember living there and in the spring there's water 25 that after the snow melts and then the summer so that he

1 can hear the -- well on the swamp down here we had a lot 2 of black snakes. And you can hear them thrashing around 3 out in the water and just outside the door. And that's 4 the kind of conditions they had to live in. 5 Q: All right. So in other words the -- 6 the quality of the land was -- was worse -- 7 A: It was very poor. 8 Q: All right. Now, did your mother talk 9 about the impact that the move from Stoney Point to 10 Kettle Point had on her? 11 A: Well, she said it was very hard, 12 because when she moved to Kettle Point, a lot of the 13 people on Kettle Point didn't like people coming in. And 14 so it was very hard for her to grow up and -- until 15 probably, you know, they finally got used to you, and 16 then you made friends. Just like any place you go, you 17 move, you got to make friends, but it takes a long time 18 to do that. 19 Q: Did she ever express any form of 20 regret to you with respect to having had to leave Stoney 21 Point? 22 A: Well, she said it was hard and she 23 wished she could go back, but she always wanted to go 24 back. But until after, you know, you learnt what 25 National Defence -- all the chemicals they buried and

1 stuff and what has happened there. And it's just not 2 suitable for, you know, anybody to move back there and 3 live healthy, like. 4 Q: Were you ever told about the 5 existence of burial grounds in relation to the Stoney 6 Point lands? 7 A: Yes. There's burial grounds right on 8 Stoney Point. And there are also from my knowledge and I 9 read it in one (1) of the documents, there is also three 10 (3) -- three (3) more on -- in the Provincial Park, small 11 ones. 12 So, totally I know of four (4). 13 Q: All right, and you've indicated three 14 (3) at the Provincial Park location and where is the 15 other one? 16 A: It was, well, where the built-up area 17 is at Camp Ipperwash. It's about half a mile towards the 18 lake and I would imagine it's right -- if I had to say, 19 it'd be about in the middle of the -- the land. 20 Q: Now is this the -- is this a burial 21 ground cemetery which had a fence around it when you were 22 working at the Camp Ipperwash? 23 A: Yes. Like I said, I -- I worked 24 there and the old fence that was there, we tore down. 25 And I was working for the engineers and I was one (1) of

1 them that tore the old fence down that -- what was left 2 of it and we put up wire mesh fence around it. 3 Q: Okay. And do you recall when, 4 approximately, that occurred? 5 A: For the year, I -- I can't remember. 6 Q: All right, we know that you were 7 working there between 1980 and 1990, so would it have 8 been within that time -- 9 A: It would have been in -- in there 10 somewhere, but like I say, I just can't remember the 11 year. 12 Q: All right, and when you viewed the 13 what -- when you viewed the cemetery, did you notice -- 14 you said that the fence wasn't in good repair, wasn't all 15 there. 16 Did you notice anything else with respect 17 to the condition of the grave sites? 18 A: Well, there was a lot of, like, 19 there's a road in front of it and there's like, cement, 20 like, pillars and on top of it, it had metal ornaments on 21 there and they were shot at. 22 Like, you could see the bullet holes in 23 them and a lot of the headstones were shot at. You can 24 tell, like, there's corners chipped out of them and a lot 25 of the stones that originally was there, they were

1 missing. 2 And a lot of the stones were just 3 demolished and at that time, there was some stones -- 4 headstones that were found in London at the Military Base 5 there, for what reason I wouldn't know why they wanted a 6 headstone. 7 Q: And how do you know that there were 8 some in London at the Military Base? 9 A: Well, at that time there was -- I 10 can't say who, because nobody knows, like there was -- 11 word came that you should check London Base for 12 headstones and they wouldn't say their name. And I can't 13 -- I think it -- I think Scott Ewart was one (1) of them 14 that knew about it and I know Clifford George, he -- I 15 think he tried to go there. 16 Q: I guess my -- my question is, did you 17 -- did you find these yourself or -- 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: -- or is this based on information 20 you received from others? 21 A: I didn't find them myself, it was 22 just information based on others. 23 Q: All right. Thank you. Now, you 24 indicated, as well, that there were three (3) small grave 25 sites that you're -- you were aware of in the Park, are

1 you able to tell us where within the Park? And if I put 2 a map on the screen would that assist? 3 A: Yeah. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: All right. We're going to start with 8 Inquiry Document Number 2000327. And that's Exhibit P- 9 40. Now, you'll see that the Park is in the corner, the 10 top left corner. 11 Is that map large enough for you to -- 12 A: Oh, yes. 13 Q: -- place the approximate location. 14 You'll see there's a laser pen in front of you? That's 15 it. 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: And if you could point -- 18 A: Okay, somewhere around here is where 19 the maintenance building is. 20 Q: Yes? 21 A: Right in the back corner or -- the 22 battery's gone dead in that. 23 Q: Perhaps if -- if you'd like to look 24 at where the maintenance is, why don't I put a different 25 map up for you --

1 A: Okay. 2 Q: -- and you can be a little more 3 specific. And this is P-61 and you'll see there where 4 the -- the maintenance building is marked. There's a 5 closeup map of the Park. Do you see where that -- the 6 maintenance is? At the bottom of the map there's the 7 word, Maintenance. Let me just show you. There, sorry. 8 There it is. 9 A: Oh. 10 Q: The maintenance, just to give you an 11 orientation. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Perhaps you can tell us where in 14 relation to the maintenance shed? 15 A: Okay, the -- the maintenance building 16 is roughly around there, then. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: And there was a grave site in the -- 19 if I remember correctly, it was in the left back corner 20 and then again there -- 21 Q: Of the building you mean? Where the 22 building was built? 23 A: Yes. Either it was right in the back 24 or it was built right on top of the grave sites? 25 Q: All right.

1 A: Like, it was a very, very small one 2 and there also was another one roughly around this area 3 here. It was about the same size and then -- 4 Q: And -- 5 A: -- in the camping grounds there was a 6 very small one around over here. 7 Q: And when you -- I'm sorry. 8 A: Now these are -- there was a map that 9 I came across and it was marked on it, but I don't have 10 those maps anymore. 11 Q: All right. And for the record, the 12 second grave site area was near the word, Permit, on the 13 map, the permit office and -- 14 A: Well, it was around that area 15 roughly, yes. 16 Q: Yes. And the other was near the 17 campsites? 18 A: It was on the campsite there, yes. 19 Q: I think you pointed around the Number 20 618 and 626. It's hard to distinguish the numbers up 21 there but for the record, in that general vicinity? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right, thank you. Now when you 24 say small grave sites, were these single grave sites? 25 A: No. Like the smallest one would

1 probably be around about maybe five (5), six (6) grave 2 sites. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: And the other ones would be a little 5 bigger. So there might be around about ten (10), twelve 6 (12) maybe. 7 Q: And what is the source of your 8 information with respect to the existence and approximate 9 location of these burial sites? 10 A: I came across a map where it was 11 marked on but like I said, I don't have those maps 12 anymore. 13 Q: Do you know who made the map? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Did you receive any information from 16 -- from any of your relatives in relation to burial sites 17 at the -- at the Park? 18 A: No. 19 Q: All right, thank you. To your 20 knowledge were any of your relatives buried either within 21 the Park or Camp Ipperwash area? 22 A: As far as I know, they're buried at 23 Camp Ipperwash. 24 Q: And which relatives would those be? 25 A: That would be my great-grandfathers

1 and my great-great-grandfathers. Like my grandfather and 2 grandmother are buried on Kettle Point. 3 Q: All right. Thank you. When did you 4 first become involved in any efforts to reclaim the 5 former Stoney Point lands? 6 A: I think it was in '93 in the spring. 7 It's a long time ago. I can't recall the exact day 8 unless I went to some kind of a document. 9 Q: All right. Well, we can pinpoint it 10 more precisely. But I just wanted to have a general time 11 frame. And just for clarification what land area did you 12 consider to be the Stoney Point lands? 13 A: Like, the built-up area where the 14 Camp Ipperwash was and the Provincial Park and the 15 lakefront that would have been Stoney Point, all of that 16 was. 17 Q: I'm just going to put up Exhibit P-40 18 for you again and perhaps using that map you would 19 indicate with the laser, the approximate boundaries of 20 the -- what you consider to be the Stoney Point lands. 21 And we'll just -- just wait til we fit that inside the 22 screen. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 A: Now the -- from the highway, this 2 would be the highway here, and this -- the whole thing 3 like the whole map you got there would be the Stoney 4 Point lands. 5 Q: All right. And, just for the record, 6 you've indicated I believe, Highway 21 along one (1) 7 side? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: The waterfront? 10 A: The waterfront, yes. 11 Q: Army Camp Road? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And on the right what road would be 14 the approximate marker? 15 A: Outer Drive. 16 Q: Outer Drive? Thank you very much. 17 Now in front of you I believe there is a map with respect 18 to the Park Camp saying the Welcome to Ipperwash map. 19 Not that one, underneath the barracks map there. That's 20 it. 21 And just for the record I wonder if you 22 would, using your pen, mark the approximate locations of 23 the burial sites, the four (4) burials -- or the three 24 (3) burial sites which you referred to? 25 A: (INDICATING) Yes, using an "X".

1 Now, this is just roughly, it's not -- it's just 2 approximately on there. 3 Q: I appreciate that. We'll make that 4 the next exhibit, Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One sixty- 6 four (164)? 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-164. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 10 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-164: Document 1002409 Map of 11 Ipperwash Provincial Park and 12 area "Welcome to Ipperwash!" 13 Marked by Witness Carl 14 Tolsma, February 09/'05 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 17 Q: All right. And I think we're 18 familiar with the fenced in cemetery that you're speaking 19 of at the built-up area. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. Now, were you aware of 22 any prior efforts to reclaim the Stoney Point lands, that 23 is, efforts early -- by others earlier than 1993? 24 A: Yes. The Kettle Point Council, I can 25 remember them trying to talk with the government to

1 regain the land. But at the time they tried it, along 2 Outer Drive, that's the only part that -- I think it was 3 about maybe a hundred (100) -- two hundred (200) feet in 4 from the road there, they said that they could have that 5 back at one (1) time and because it was the only piece of 6 land that was never used. And then -- 7 Q: I'm sorry, what -- what mass, if you 8 will, of land would that be? What area? You said it's a 9 couple of hundred feet in from Outer Drive, but -- 10 A: It was like a -- a stretch of land 11 along the highway -- Outer Drive. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: And like I said, it was about a 14 hundred (100) to maybe two hundred (200) feet in, if -- 15 if I recall right, and that's the only parcel of land 16 that was never used. And that was years ago and they 17 were willing to return that, but it never ever happened. 18 And another time I can recall was when I 19 was working at Camp Ipperwash there was a few people that 20 went in and they lit the -- the sacred fire and you have 21 to be there for three (3) days, three (3) nights and one 22 (1) of them I do remember was Bernard Cecil George or 23 Cecil Bernard George. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: And I was working in the bull gang at

33
  1  the time, it was during the summer.  And National Defence
  2  allowed it and they went in for three (3) days, three (3)
  3  nights. 
  4                 And, you know, I was riding around on the
  5  truck doing my work and I looked at everything there and
  6  I seen that, you know, they allowed them in and they
  7  wanted them to come in and do what they have to do and
  8  then they're going to leave.  They didn't take anything
  9  serious, they didn't care.  They let them be.  It didn't
 10  bother them.
 11                 Q:   You're referring to the -- the
 12  Military, are you?
 13                 A:   The -- the Military, yes.
 14                 Q:   Yes.
 15                 A:   And more or less what they were
 16  thinking, let them in, let them do their thing, they're
 17  gone.  We don't have to worry about them.
 18                 Q:   Now, how is it that you formed this
 19  perception of that -- that impression?
 20                 A:   Well, I watched -- I watch and I do a
 21  lot of watching people and how they act and stuff.  I
 22  pretty well watch everything and that's the -- the idea I
 23  got out of it.
 24                 Q:   And where in the -- the Military Camp
 25  were the sacred fires held, typically?

1 A: There's a portion of the built-up 2 area, it was near the hospital. 3 Q: All right. So, it's right in the 4 built-up area? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: It's right in between the hospital 8 and the highway. 9 Q: All right. Did you form any 10 impressions with respect to the effectiveness of -- of 11 these efforts -- the efforts by the Kettle and Stony 12 Point Band that you were aware of and the efforts by 13 individuals to come onto the land and -- and build sacred 14 fires? 15 A: Well, it's just like I -- I didn't 16 know anything about when they were going to do it. I 17 just -- like I said, when I was working there I just seen 18 them there one (1) and they stayed for three (3) days and 19 that's what I seen, that's what I watched. 20 Q: Did you observe any other forms of -- 21 of demonstrations around the Army Camp Base when you were 22 working there by people from Kettle and Stony Point? 23 A: Yeah, there was one (1). Well, some 24 of the Elders and a lot of -- lot of the youth marched up 25 and down with signs and to return the land. But that's

1 about the only one that I know of. 2 Q: All right, now with respect to that 3 demonstration, was there any type of intervention by the 4 Military or the police that you saw? 5 A: No, it was all -- it was pretty well 6 all peaceful and National Defence didn't do anything and 7 Provincial Police didn't do anything. 8 Just -- the police were there. They were 9 just mainly watching for traffic and kept people off the 10 highway and kept the traffic flowing. 11 Q: Now, you indicated that your first 12 active involvement in efforts to reclaim the Stoney Point 13 lands happened in around the spring of '93. 14 Can you tell me, what gave rise or what 15 motivated you to become active at that time? 16 A: Well, I only can speak for myself. 17 But, like I said, I watched all these things happen and I 18 watched National Defence. They just ignored it. 19 And when I was working there, I heard a 20 few of them talking and they were just saying, when are 21 they going to leave, you know, they're tired of it. And 22 -- you know, to myself, it's like they didn't care, they 23 just wanted everybody out of there. 24 And the government, they never took notice 25 and they didn't care so I just thought to myself, what --

1 what can you do to more or less shake them up and make 2 them see. 3 So that's when I talked to a few other 4 people and they felt the same about, like, what if we 5 went in? And I said naturally they're going to think 6 it's just another three (3) day demonstration and they're 7 going to let us in and what happens if we don't leave? 8 So they thought it was a great idea. So a 9 few of us talked and, you know, we talked for quite a 10 while. We just didn't do everything, just right there 11 and then. It took about a good three (3) -- three (3) 12 months. 13 We talked everything over and everybody 14 agreed and there was a small group of people that went 15 in, probably anywhere from twelve (12) to I'll just say 16 maybe thirty (30) with the children also. 17 But, you know, I was right. When we went 18 in -- 19 Q: I wonder -- 20 A: -- the guard -- 21 Q: -- I'm sorry. I'm going to -- just 22 before we get to that, I am going to ask you -- 23 A: Okay. 24 Q: -- about the initial entry, but just 25 to provide a little more detail to the Commission.

1 Who -- who did you have these meetings 2 with during the three (3) months, approximately, that 3 preceded the entry? 4 A: There was Robert George and his son 5 Ron George, Maynard T. George, Janet Cloud, Marlene 6 Cloud, and I think that was about it. 7 Q: You -- you recall whether Marcia 8 Simon was involved at this time? 9 A: At -- she may have been there now and 10 again, but not to too many of the -- our meetings we had. 11 Q: All right, and Robert George, does he 12 have -- go by the nickname "Nobby" from time to time? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. All right, and did you have 15 meetings with members of the Department of National 16 Defence, in advance of this event? 17 A: Yes, we did. 18 Q: And did you attend at those meetings? 19 A: At first, yes. A lot of them I can't 20 remember -- recall, but most of them I can. 21 Q: All right, you recall how many 22 meetings -- well, let's look at Tab 3. Mr. Registrar, 23 what was the exhibit of that, the exhibit number? 24 THE REGISTRAR: 163. 25

1 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: Exhibit 163. And this is the letter 3 that you've identified as having your signature dated 4 April 4th, 1993. It indicates that there was a meeting - 5 - that were topics of discussion on March the 29th and 6 30th, 1993. 7 And I take it that those were meetings 8 that you attended at with the Department of National 9 Defence? 10 A: Well, we -- we probably did. Like 11 this has been a long time ago and it's kind of hard to 12 remember, but we met with some of them there, yes. 13 Q: And was -- I'm sorry -- what was the 14 purpose of the -- the meetings? 15 A: Well, just to inform them that we 16 were preparing to come into the Camp, but we didn't say 17 how long we were going to be there. And we said it's 18 going to all be peaceful and we weren't going to cause a 19 problem for -- at that time the cadets were there. 20 Well, they weren't there yet, but they 21 were coming. And it's like they -- like I said earlier, 22 they didn't really care. They figured we're just going 23 in and then we'd be back out of there again. 24 Q: All right. Now, did these early 25 efforts focus on -- on the Military Base as distinct from

39
  1  the Park or was this all one (1) -- one (1) and the same
  2  to you?
  3                 A:   To me it was all one (1) and the
  4  same.
  5                 Q:   All right.  And were you aware that
  6  the Park was a Provincial Park?
  7                 A:   Yes.
  8                 Q:   And so why did you think this effort
  9  would advance the effort to reclaim both the Military
 10  Base and the Park given that you were dealing with the
 11  Federal Government?
 12                 A:   Well, I thought if -- if I could get
 13  their attention, like, maybe they could, you know, talk
 14  to the Provincial Government and say, Well, maybe you
 15  better return this.  And -- I just had an idea that I
 16  wanted to try and open their eyes to do something about
 17  it, that was my -- what I was focussed on.
 18                 Q:   All right.  In your view, had the
 19  Chief and -- and Band Council over at Stoney Point made
 20  sufficient progress in their dialogues with the Federal
 21  Government in relation to the return of the lands?
 22                 A:   Well, they were talking to them, but
 23  I seen even there they weren't making too much of a
 24  progress.  They were -- kept being promised this and that
 25  and for years they were promised a lot of stuff and

1 nothing ever came about. 2 Like, over the years they, like it gets 3 frustrating. And even for myself this is mainly the 4 reason why I got involved and I wanted to do something is 5 because nothing was moving and they kept promising 6 everything and giving nothing. 7 Q: All right. Now, the discussions you 8 had with the Department of National Defence in advance of 9 entering the Camp, did you actually indicate that it was 10 your intention to move onto the Camp lands? 11 A: Well, yes, I told them we wanted to 12 come in and we were -- we had a few trailers and they 13 said, No problem. Like, well, we didn't say, "trailers" 14 we said, "tents", but in the beginning someone brought a 15 small eight (8) foot raggedy old trailer. And the rest 16 of the people just had pop-up tents -- 17 Q: All right. 18 A: -- and that's -- that's all they 19 thought we -- we had was tents. 20 Q: All right. Did you discuss anything 21 else with the Department of National Defence? I see that 22 you provided them with a list of the homeowners as at 23 1942. Why -- was that requested of you? 24 A: Well, we -- at the time we thought it 25 would have been probably the best reason to educate them

1 that this was a native reserve. And at the time it was 2 supposed to be returned after the war and -- which they 3 failed to do. So we give them the documents with who was 4 our elders, who was born there and they had location 5 tickets and more or less to say we had the right to the 6 land and we want our land back. 7 Q: Fair enough. All right. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: I've just been asked to put the 12 document that we're referring to, on the screen so 13 everyone could have a look at it. It's Inquiry Document 14 Number 4000407 and it's Exhibit P-163. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: And it is in the -- in our disclosure 19 in the Supertext database. In any event, I'm happy to 20 make an extra copy available. Thank you. 21 All right now just before we -- we move 22 onto the actual entry into the Camp, I wanted to review 23 one (1) other issue with you. Were you involved in any 24 efforts to assert fishing rights prior to 1993? 25 A: Well, the fishing rights -- I was

1 involved in that. Everyone -- a lot of us are fishermen, 2 and we made our living and -- with gill netting. And the 3 way it was suppose to be is that we have our fishing 4 rights from along Lake Huron shores from I believe it was 5 from Sarnia up to Goderich. 6 And we went up -- this one (1) particular 7 day and we lifted our nets and apparently MNR was waiting 8 for everyone to return. And they arranged a raid and 9 they got help from the States, from a few of the game 10 wardens there. And like me and my cousin, Al Bressette, 11 we'd had a eighteen (18) foot outboard alone and boat. 12 And we were on our way back home. Like he 13 was driving the boat and I was sitting on a seat facing 14 him so I seen the waves breaking oh maybe a couple of 15 miles behind us. But when you're fishing you pretty well 16 know where everyone is. And everyone was on the side of 17 us or in front of us or a little behind. 18 And at that time you -- you can't identify 19 who it is. And all I seen was the water breaking and a 20 big boat racing towards us and I told my cousin, I said, 21 we better get in fast. I said, I don't like the looks of 22 this. But apparently we couldn't go too fast because 23 they caught up to us like we were standing still. 24 And the boat got closer and we were about 25 the first ones to get caught. The boat was coming up and

1 when it got closer I seen someone standing, like three 2 (3) people standing in the front of the boat. And one 3 (1) of them had a -- a rifle pointing at us and his arm 4 was on the wind -- front windshield of the boat and the 5 barrel of the rifle was going up and down hitting the 6 waves. 7 And I told my cousin, I said, I think 8 there's a problem here. So anyway in order to stop us 9 they rammed the side of our boat and pulled off to the 10 side. And we stopped and asked him what the problem was 11 and the boat came closer. And the OPP that -- it was an 12 OPP that was holding the rifle. And he said we're being 13 charged for illegal gill netting. 14 And he told us not to move, he says, or 15 else he'll shoot. And my cousin was reaching -- he had 16 his left hand on the throttle of the outboard and he 17 reached with his right hand to turn it off and his sleeve 18 got caught in the -- in the throttle somehow. And the 19 police officer pointed the gun at him. He says, I told 20 you not to move, so. And he tried to explain and the 21 police officer just hollered over his voice, he says, 22 Don't move. 23 So I spoke up and I said, his sleeve is 24 caught. And he says, Okay, undo it. And then he pointed 25 the rifle at me and he said, don't you move.

1 And that time he was making me mad, so I 2 stood up and I said, If you're going to shoot, shoot me 3 right now. I said, get it over with. 4 And then he proceeded, he says, Load those 5 nets on our boat. I said, If you want them, you'd better 6 come and get them yourself. So he had a couple of young 7 guys on there. I -- pretty sure they were from the 8 States and they were scared. They were shaking and, I 9 told them if you want them? Come and get them. 10 So we let them take them and as he took 11 all of our nets and the fish and he says, This is the 12 last time you're going to be fishing out here. Don't be 13 out here tomorrow or the same thing's going to happen. 14 And then he took our nets and then they 15 continued -- well, they pulled away and they went after 16 someone else. And then we went into shore. There was 17 only a few people that, you know, got away, because there 18 was more than one (1) boat out there. 19 And -- but they were in closer, so they 20 head in for the rocks, the big boats couldn't get in 21 there. They hit a few rocks and they decided they better 22 turn around. 23 So there's a few that got away, but pretty 24 well everybody else got caught. 25 Q: Now was your boat searched for guns?

1 A: Guns? No. 2 Q: Did you have any with you? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Were you ultimately charged with 5 these offences? 6 A: We were charged for illegally fishing 7 with gill nets. 8 Q: And do you recall what year this 9 event took place in? 10 A: No, I can't remember the exact year. 11 Q: Would you kindly at the Tab 1, 12 Inquiry Document Number 2002259 and this is a letter 13 dated October 16, 1987 from Detective Sergeant GA 14 Matthews of the Ontario Provincial Police. 15 And it is -- it appears to be a report by 16 the Detective. You'll see on page -- at the bottom of 17 page 1, there's an indication that fish and nets were 18 seized from Alan Bressette and Carl George of Kettle 19 Point. 20 And does that help you -- help refresh 21 your memory as to when this event likely occurred, 22 approximately? 23 A: Yeah. I remember when it happened, 24 like, what happened that time, but looking at this 25 document in -- in '87, that was quite a while ago.

1 Q: All right. It indicates on page 3, 2 September the 27th, 1987. Does that sound about right to 3 you? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: All right. Can I make this the -- 6 the next exhibit, Commissioner? 7 THE REGISTRAR: P-165. 8 9 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-165: Document 2002259 OPP Letter 10 Re: Request for assistance 11 from the Ministry of Natural 12 Resources Re: Illegal 13 fishing, Lake Huron, near 14 Kettle Point Reserve Oct 15 16/'87 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: And were the -- the Chief and Band 19 Council supportive of your -- of yours and others fishing 20 efforts, notwithstanding the -- the involvement of the 21 police and the Ministry of Natural Resources? 22 A: Well, we went to the chief and 23 council and right away they -- they got a lawyer and they 24 said we have to fight this, because everybody thought we 25 had our fishing rights. And everybody, like the MNR and

1 OPP, well they knew about it but they kept saying, No, 2 you don't have your rights. 3 So Chief and Council hired a lawyer and 4 represented all of us. 5 Q: And what was the outcome of the 6 charges with respect to yourself? 7 A: Well, they all got dropped and we got 8 our fishing rights and we got our nets back, what was 9 left of them. 10 Q: All right. And was this event 11 instructive to you with respect to pursuing your rights - 12 - aboriginal rights? 13 A: It only -- to me it only made me see 14 and understand that anything has to do with the 15 government, Indian Affairs, MNR, they don't take people 16 seriously. They really don't care for what rights we 17 have -- we had. 18 It -- it made me understand that and made 19 me think about it a lot. And just made my eyes open a 20 lot more than, you know, what I -- I never really thought 21 about it before until it started happening to me. 22 Q: All right. And so now to -- to move 23 forward, then, to 1993 and your decision to walk onto the 24 Camp Ipperwash lands. You indicated that you gave 25 advance notice to the National -- the Department of

1 National Defence. 2 Did you also provide notice of your 3 intention to walk onto the Camp Ipperwash lands to the 4 Ontario Provincial Police? 5 A: Yes, I -- I talked to them also and I 6 explained to them that what we were going to do, it was 7 going to be peaceful, we weren't there to cause a 8 problem, like make trouble and it was all, like I said, 9 supposed to be peaceful. So they said, Go ahead, as long 10 as you're not doing anything illegal or else we'll -- we 11 will arrest you. 12 Q: Do you recall who, specifically, you 13 spoke to on behalf of the Ontario Provincial Police? 14 A: No, I'm bad with names and it was a 15 long time and I talked to so many. 16 Q: Okay. I wonder if you would look at 17 Tab 4 of your binder. It's Inquiry Document Number 18 2002643 and it's a letter dated May 6th, 1993 from Staff 19 Sergeant J.F. Carson to the Superintendent, Ontario 20 Provincial Police Number 1 District Headquarters and it's 21 referenced First Nations Occupation CFB Ipperwash. And 22 I'll read the letter in part, it indicates: 23 "Please be advised that at 24 approximately 9:30 hours this date 25 Chief Carl George, Stoney Point First

1 Nation attended this office to advise 2 that members of Stoney Point were 3 commencing to occupy the Military Base 4 CFB Ipperwash." 5 The third paragraph reads: 6 "Chief George indicates that the 7 occupation will be continued until 8 negotiations with the Federal 9 Government are successfully concluded. 10 Approximately twelve (12) persons are 11 expected to be -- take part in the 12 occupation. He assures this office 13 that all aspects of this action will be 14 peaceful. They do not want any other 15 groups to participate or interfere with 16 their efforts." 17 Now, does that sound like an accurate 18 reflection of your discussion when you attended at the -- 19 the -- the detachment? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And would May the 6th, 1993 sound 22 about right in terms of the date that you had this 23 meeting? 24 A: Yeah, that sounds about right, yes. 25 Q: I'd like to make this the next

1 exhibit. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-166. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 166. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-166: Document 2002643 OPP Letter 6 May 06/'93 from J.F. Carson, 7 Staff Sergeant No. 5582, 8 Detachment Commander, 9 Reference: First Nations 10 Occupation - CFB Ipperwash 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 13 Q: Thank you. Now, you are identified 14 in this document as Chief George of the Stoney Point 15 First Nation. And is it fair to say that -- that you 16 were presented as Chief of the Stoney Point First Nation 17 on that occasion? 18 A: Well, that's what the -- the group 19 that I went in with wanted to call me, but I wasn't -- I 20 didn't -- I didn't like the -- the title because I wasn't 21 a chief. I was only a spokesman at that time. 22 Because later on we -- we did have an 23 election and I figured well if that's what they want then 24 give it to them for, you know, for a while and see what 25 happens.

1 Q: All right. Is it fair to say that -- 2 that you -- you accepted though, this -- this title with 3 respect to your discussions with the police? 4 A: Well I kept telling them that I'm 5 only a spokesman, not a chief. But letters came back as 6 Chief Carl George and that's, you know, I kept telling 7 them, I'm only a spokesman here. 8 Q: Now you indicated that there was la - 9 - subsequently an election but you indicated a group of 10 people wanted you to be chief. 11 So was there a consensus with respect to 12 the people you were meeting with that you should be 13 chief? 14 A: They just suggested it, that in the 15 beginning. 16 Q: All right, fair enough. And when 17 you walked onto those lands, did you have a long term 18 vision as to how this process would go? 19 A: Yes. Like the vision I had was -- I 20 seen what happened with -- when they had their sacred 21 fire they stayed for three (3) days, three (3) nights. 22 Every -- everyone ignored them. When they left it was 23 all forgotten. And I know -- I know to the people it was 24 something but to the governments like National Defence 25 and the federal, provincial, they just forgot about it,

1 it was gone, it meant nothing to them. 2 And when I seen that it kind of made me 3 think like, okay, well, maybe they'll think the same 4 thing when we go on the land. But, we're not going to 5 tell anybody anything what we had planned. Like, once we 6 got on the land we were going to stay there until some 7 kind of a talk happened. 8 What I wanted to accomplish was to get 9 them talking and something in place, then I can kind of 10 phase out of the picture and let chief and council take 11 over from there. But earlier that -- that things 12 happened, they -- they didn't take notice, they didn't 13 really -- they didn't care. 14 Q: So your intention was to try through 15 this form of direct action, to get -- get something going 16 with the government and then once a process was in place, 17 you were -- you would have been content for the chief and 18 band council of Kettle and Stony Point First Nation to 19 carry on the negotiations? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And when you walked onto that land, 22 whose interests were you intending to represent? 23 A: Well I was intending to represent the 24 small group that I was with and also like, Kettle Point 25 and Stoney Point, everyone as a whole. Not just one (1)

1 small group here and one (1) small group there. 2 Like what I was doing was for everyone. 3 Like I never told anybody what my intentions were. I 4 never even told chief and council. I wanted to keep it 5 quiet and naturally a lot of people didn't know about it 6 and a lot of people didn't care. So, you know, a lot of 7 people didn't agree with me, but at the time I didn't 8 tell anybody. 9 Q: Now when you say you were doing it 10 for everyone can you be a little more specific? 11 A: Well, okay, if I was doing it for 12 everyone then I wanted to get the government's attention. 13 And I wasn't there just to talk for a small group I had 14 that was with me. Like everyone that had location 15 tickets and the government said they were suppose to 16 return the land after the war, which they failed to do. 17 And to this day it's still not returned 18 but I had intentions to stay on the land, make them take 19 notice that they can't get away with this no more. Like 20 I wanted to do it in a peaceful way and which I tried to 21 enforce and I just wanted the government to take notice, 22 that's all. 23 Q: All right, fair enough. Now you said 24 that you did not tell either the OPP or the Military that 25 not only did you intend to go on to the land, but that

1 you intended to stay for an indefinite period. 2 Why didn't you tell them that? 3 A: Because if they knew what we intended 4 to do, they would have never of allowed it. They would 5 have done anything to stop us. 6 Like when we first went in to the -- 7 through the gates, the guards there, you know, they -- 8 they laughed, they smiled and they talked and they joked 9 about us going in. They laughed at our little tents and 10 someone had, like I said, an eight (8) foot old raggedy 11 trailer. 12 They laughed at that and they allowed us 13 in. But after three (3) days went on, they knew that we 14 weren't going to leave. And other people tried to come 15 in with trailers and they stopped them. 16 Q: All right -- 17 A: They said no. 18 Q: Well let me just back you up for a 19 second, then. Going to the map, Inquiry Document Number 20 2000327, and using your laser pointer, can you firstly 21 tell me what day did you -- would you kindly indicate 22 what date you entered the Army Camp? 23 A: Well from the paper there, I -- I 24 think it said May the 6th. 25 Q: All right, and where did you enter?

1 A: I think it was the front gate and I 2 can't see the map that good, but it's somewhere around in 3 here. 4 Q: Are you talking about the main -- 5 A: The main -- 6 Q: -- gate -- 7 A: The main gate -- 8 Q: -- to the built up area? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay, thank you. How many people do 11 you think entered with you? 12 A: Well, like I said, it was around 13 anywhere from twelve (12) -- in between twelve (12) and 14 thirty (30) with -- with the children that they took in, 15 too. 16 Q: Where did you go, once you entered 17 through the main Army gate? 18 A: We mainly went to the range, around 19 here, this part along the -- the road that they had 20 there. 21 Q: Yes, the road that was parallel to 22 Highway 21? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: At around the rifle range area? 25 A: Around there, yes.

1 Q: Oh all right, and did -- was there 2 any -- did you -- was there any media coverage of this 3 event? 4 A: At first, no. 5 Q: Did you subsequently -- was there 6 publicity? 7 A: Like the first day we moved -- we 8 went in, I don't think there was, I can't recall any. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: Later on, after that there was. 11 Q: Did you alert the media to this 12 event? 13 A: You mean when we went in? 14 Q: Either when you went in or once you 15 were in, did you alert -- 16 A: Once we were in, yes. 17 Q: All right, and what was the purpose 18 of that? 19 A: Well, once we were in there, I kind 20 of figured nobody could do anything about it and the best 21 coverage we could get would be the newspaper and -- and 22 the camera crews. 23 Q: And what was the purpose of that? 24 A: More or less to -- for everyone to 25 take notice, mainly the governments and National Defence

1 at that time, to know the -- understand that we weren't 2 going to be leaving there and we intended to and we want 3 our land back. 4 That's what we were mainly saying. 5 Q: All right, now you indicated the 6 Military did not stop you from entering. Was there any 7 police presence on -- on May the 6th when you entered? 8 A: Not that I can recall, no. Because 9 like I say, we didn't tell anybody when we were -- what 10 we were doing at that moment, because I figured they'd 11 try and stop us. 12 Q: All right, you told them you were 13 entering but they were left with the impression that you 14 were only going for a short term. 15 A: Yeah, yeah. 16 Q: Fair enough. 17 A: That's why I kept everything kind of 18 quiet. 19 Q: Now were there any weapons taken in, 20 any guns or rifles taken in -- 21 A: No. 22 Q: -- by the people? 23 A: No. Not if it was supposed to be 24 peaceful and that's what we -- we tried to get out there 25 that we were doing this in a peaceful fashion and, no, we

1 didn't have any weapons whatsoever. 2 Q: Can you recall who were in the 3 initial group of people who entered with you through the 4 main Army Camp gate? 5 A: Well there was Maynard T. George, 6 there was Janet Cloud and her daughter. I can't -- I 7 don't know all their younger ones' names. Let's see, who 8 else? I think it was her -- Maynard's other sister, 9 Noreen; I can't pronounce her name, Koejic (phonetic) and 10 her husband and I think it was her son and daughter. 11 There wasn't too many of us there. 12 Q: All right. And just for record, the 13 -- the map that you were just referring to is Exhibit P- 14 40. Now, were any ceremonies held on May the 6th, 1995 15 associated with your entry onto the land? 16 A: No, they -- they never had any, like 17 the sacred fire they had? No. 18 Q: All right. Fair enough. 19 A: They didn't have it there at the 20 time. 21 Q: Now, I'd like you to go to Tab 5 of 22 your documents, it's Inquiry Document Number 2001199 and 23 it's a briefing note dated May 6th, 1993 by Inspector TF 24 McKenna, "A" Division Number 1 District. And it's a 25 background, it's reported as being a demonstration that

1 you have reported and that you were, reportably: 2 "A peaceful occupation of the Army Camp 3 pursuant to ongoing native claims for 4 return of this land to them and that 5 the Base Commander, Sergeant Major Fred 6 White of the Base advises that the Camp 7 personnel will cooperate to the extent 8 possible. There has been no police 9 involvement or presence to this time, 10 nor has been -- there been a request 11 for same. And the initial report from 12 George was for our information only." 13 Now, does that sound like accurate -- 14 accurately reflect the conversation that you had with the 15 Inspector on May the 6th? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. We can make that the next 18 exhibit, Commissioner. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-167. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 167. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-167: Document 2001199 Briefing 23 note May 06/'93 prepared by 24 Inspector T.F. McKenna 'A' 25 Division No. 1 District Re:

1 Native Demonstration, Camp 2 Ipperwash 1000 Hrs May 06/93 3 (Property of Dept. of 4 National Defence) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: All right. Now, going back to 8 Exhibit P-40 which is the map of the Military Base and 9 the Park and you have a copy of that map in front of you, 10 Mr. Tolsma. That's it. And I wonder if you would, on 11 the mark -- on the map, mark the approximate location 12 where the initial families put up their tents and 13 trailers. Perhaps you could use a circle to indicate the 14 general area. 15 A: (INDICATING). 16 Q: And mark that with a Number 1, 17 please? 18 A: Now, this is just roughly where they 19 were. I can't pinpoint exactly where they were because 20 everybody moved around different -- different spots. 21 Q: And for the record I think that you'd 22 indicated it was along the -- the road parallel to 23 Highway 21 and the rifle range area? 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: All right. We'll make that the next

1 exhibit, Commissioner? 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-168. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 168. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-168: Document 1002409 Page 13, Map 6 of Ipperwash Military Reserve 7 marked by Witness Carl Tolsma 8 February 09/'05 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 11 Q: Now, describe -- describe the general 12 mood of the occupants during this time in May of '93? 13 A: Well, they were happy to go in and 14 happy to be a part of something and thought they were 15 going to -- it was, well, I could say a joyous time 16 because they wanted to do something just -- just like I 17 did at the time. 18 Q: And after the three (3) days passed, 19 did -- was there any intervention or contact with either 20 the OPP or the Military personnel with respect to the 21 fact that you -- you were not leaving, you were clearly 22 not leaving? 23 A: Well, if I recall right, there's 24 other people that tried to come in through the main gate 25 but the guards wouldn't allow them in --

62
  1                 Q:   Yes.
  2                 A:   -- and at that time I -- I think we
  3  let the Military know that we weren't going to be
  4  leaving.  I'm trying to recall, right -- I think we just
  5  let the Military know, I'm not sure.
  6                 Q:   Well, did in fact, other people join
  7  you shortly thereafter?
  8                 A:   Yeah, like I said, other people tried
  9  to come in but they weren't allowed through the gate to
 10  bring any trailers or anything in.  So they -- what they
 11  done was, jump over the fence along the highway.  And
 12  after a while we -- we took the fence down, like, where
 13  the roads were to get onto the highway and that's how
 14  they got in, with their trailers.
 15                 Q:   Was there a gate that was locked
 16  which -- which had the lock broken open or cut open --
 17                 A:   Yes, that was down near Outer Drive
 18  and that was later on after a lot more of the people
 19  already came in.  So we got a hold of the newspapers and
 20  cameras to -- just to show that we were -- we were going
 21  in through there.  
 22                 And I believe it was Bert Mannings that
 23  had a hacksaw and both me and him broke a link on the
 24  lock to take it off, and we opened the gate to -- more or
 25  less to say, Whoever wants to come in, they can come in

1 now. 2 Q: Now, approximately how long after May 3 6th did this happen? 4 A: I think it was during the -- in the 5 summer. 6 Q: Of 1993? 7 A: I'm pretty sure. 8 Q: And what other families joined your 9 occupation over the course of the spring and summer of 10 '93? 11 A: I think there was the Mannings 12 family, Glen George's family. There was a lot of -- a 13 lot of other people that came in. There was a Cloud 14 family. Like I said, a lot of people came in, they 15 stayed, but a lot of people came in for a weekend and 16 they left. A lot of people just came in and left 17 constantly, so. 18 Q: All right, so there was a 19 fluctuation? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Did Dudley George join you? 22 A: Yes, he did but I can't remember 23 exactly when he came. 24 Q: All right, was his presence welcomed 25 by you?

1 A: Oh, yes. 2 Q: Why? 3 A: Well, he was kind of a guy that we 4 talked and I think at the time I talked with Glenn and he 5 said, Well, he has nothing to do and he wants to come. 6 So I think at that time we got a trailer and we said, 7 okay, this will be Dudley's trailer where he can live. 8 And as far as I knew, knowing Dudley, he 9 was, more or less, kind of a happy-go-lucky guy and he 10 just, more or less, got along with everybody. 11 Q: Now what was the reaction, to your 12 knowledge, of the Chief and Band Council to -- to your 13 actions in occupying or commencing an occupation of the - 14 - part of the Camp Ipperwash lands? 15 A: Well, I don't think they liked it too 16 much. Like I said, I didn't tell too many people what I 17 had planned until I seen where -- it was time for me to 18 tell them. Like after -- after a while when I went to 19 Tom and I explained to him that -- what I had planned, 20 and he was okay with it, he understood. 21 But I had to tell him that I couldn't tell 22 anybody because, you know, if you got a group of people 23 and someone doesn't like what you're doing then they're 24 going to do something opposite, so everything would have 25 got messed up.

1 So I couldn't tell anybody what I wanted 2 to do. Like I said, a lot of people hated my guts for it 3 but that goes along with whatever you got to do. You got 4 to do what you got to do. 5 Q: All right. Now on May the 7th I 6 wonder if you would go to Tab 6 of your document -- part 7 of the Inquiry Document Number 3000723. And it's 8 entitled "Camp Ipperwash Occupation Chronology of 9 Events". It's the 3rd page in. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 11 what tab is that? 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Tab 6. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 6? 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: And this is a document that appears 17 to be historical background and chronology of events in 18 May. And at May the 7th, there's an indication that at 19 08:00 Maynard, Carl, and Clifford George attempt to bluff 20 Camp secretary, they depart on arrival of Military staff. 21 Now, do you have recollection as to what 22 that was about on May the 7th? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And at 1:30 or 13:30 indicates there 25 was a staged media event that Carl George presents

1 detective with legal papers. Do you recall serving legal 2 papers on the Military on September the 7th? 3 A: I -- well, we probably did but I just 4 -- I can't remember what papers they were. 5 Q: There's an indication that -- that 6 you had a meeting at 14:00 with Captain Dodson and that 7 you were told that you were trespassing and that you 8 would be responsible for any and all activities. 9 Now, do you recall having a meeting with 10 the Military early on in which -- 11 A: I -- I remember those words what we 12 were told, yeah. But it takes a little bit for 13 everything to come back. 14 Q: Fair enough. It was a long time ago. 15 A: Yes, it was. 16 Q: Ten (10) years ago so... 17 A: I remember them saying that, yes. 18 Q: All right. And what was your 19 reaction when you were given that advice? 20 A: Well, my reaction -- I had to accept 21 it. And I told them how that it was suppose to be 22 peaceful and like they had the documents stating that 23 this was reserve land at one (1) time and they were 24 supposed to give it back. And that's what we kept, you 25 know, pushing -- pushing at them.

1 Q: In other words you -- you stayed on 2 the land notwithstanding that notice -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- or that advice? 5 A: We -- we stayed, stayed on the land, 6 yes. 7 Q: Now if you look over the next page, 8 May 11th evening, I'm reading from the document. 9 "Carl George asked OPP for assistance. 10 He intimates possibility of violence by 11 other Band members against Stoney Point 12 group." 13 Do you -- do you recall having a concern 14 in that regard and making a request for assistance? 15 A: I can remember a -- a little bit. 16 Like I -- I probably did call them because a lot -- like 17 I said, a lot of people didn't like us being there. And 18 at that time a lot of people -- because we were on the 19 land, said that we were on their parents', grandparents' 20 property and they didn't like the idea of us being there. 21 Q: So these were other people from the 22 Kettle and Stony Point community who you had concerns? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. Did those concerns ever - 25 - were they ever realized in May of '93? Was there any

1 difficulties? 2 A: Myself, I knew that it would happen, 3 that's -- that's the reason why I didn't want any other 4 group coming in. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: But after we came in then, you know, 7 it -- it was kind of hard to stop people from coming in. 8 Like, I -- I couldn't really say, well, you can't come in 9 here, we don't want you here. It was more or less where 10 we tried to welcome everybody and -- but tried to keep a 11 -- a lid on everything at the same time. 12 Q: But was there any -- were there any 13 incidents of violence amongst the -- 14 A: No. 15 Q: -- occupants in May of '93? 16 A: I -- I can't recall any. Just a lot 17 of arguing and that was about -- that's the end of it. 18 Q: And did you call the OPP for 19 assistance? 20 A: I must say, I can't remember. 21 Q: All right. Do you recall any members 22 of the Ontario Provincial Police coming onto the -- the 23 land in May of '93? 24 A: Well, yeah, they -- they raided us 25 one (1) time.

1 Q: All right. I think that -- are you 2 referring to a -- an execution of a search warrant? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right, I believe that that was a 5 little later. But I'm talking about May, the first -- 6 the first month of your occupation. 7 A: For the OPP to come in? 8 Q: At your request. 9 A: At my request? Well, I did talk to 10 one (1) officer from Grand Bend Detachment. I got along 11 pretty good with him and he did come and he talked with 12 me to, you know, give me advice and help me out with 13 different stuff, more or less just to keep the peace. 14 That's all I can recall, any police officer coming -- 15 Q: And do you -- 16 A: -- on the land. 17 Q: -- recall the name of this 18 individual? 19 A: I believe -- I think it was Rick 20 Bouwman. 21 Q: All right. So it's fair to say that 22 you developed a -- a good working relationship with this 23 police officer? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And he attended from time to time to

1 have discussions with you? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And what types of discussions did you 4 have with him? 5 A: Well the -- we talked about 6 different, you know, demonstrations and stuff and he said 7 to me, well, you know, I says if you do -- keep within 8 the law, you know, we won't have a problem. 9 Different things like that and the 10 concerns he had, like, with -- well this was later on, 11 like, with, you know, patrolling the beach front and more 12 or less to say, okay, we have a good working relationship 13 here and if you want this to be peaceful you won't have a 14 problem with it. 15 And I did agree with it because I thought 16 it was a good thing to do because of the cottagers, they 17 were uneasy. They thought we were violent and that was 18 the furthest thing away from our mind. 19 But, you know, stuff like that. Let the 20 people know we weren't violent and we were willing to -- 21 we only want our land back and that's all we want. We 22 weren't there to cause problems for anybody else. 23 Q: All right, thank you. Commissioner, 24 it's 10:30. Is it time for the morning break, perhaps? 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Absolutely.

1 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Take a break 3 now. 4 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 5 for fifteen (15) minutes. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 10:32 a.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 10:48 a.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 11 resumed. Please be seated. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you, Mr. 13 Commissioner. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 16 Q: Now did you, in fact, do you recall 17 whether or not a trespass notice was served on behalf of 18 your group, on the Military? 19 A: Yes, I think there was. 20 Q: I'd ask you to kindly look at Tab 8 21 of your book of documents, it's part of Inquiry Document 22 Number 2001202, the fax cover sheet from the Ontario 23 Provincial Police, dated May 18, 1993, and the third page 24 of that document appears to be a Notice. 25 And you'll see there's a back to it as

1 well, and under Agent, there's a signature; is that your 2 signature? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And is this in fact the Notice of 5 Trespass, dated May 18th, 1993, which was served on 6 behalf of your group? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: I'd like to make that the next 9 Exhibit, Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-169. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 169. May 13 18th. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-169: Document 2001202 OPP Fax 16 Cover sheet from Supt. T.C. 17 Randall, May 18/'93 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: All right. Now, what was your intent 21 in having this Notice served on the Military? 22 A: Well, they were supposed to return 23 the land after the war, and they -- which they never, so 24 we figured, you know, if we serve this, then, naturally, 25 it's going to go to the headquarters and from there who

1 knows where it's going to go. 2 But it's more or less to start the ball 3 rolling, make people understand. 4 Q: All right. And did you provide 5 notice of your intention to have this Notice served to 6 the Ontario Provincial Police? 7 A: Probably did, yes. 8 Q: Would you kindly look at your 9 document at Tab 7, it's Inquiry Document Number 2000667, 10 it's a letter dated May 18, 1993, from Acting Staff 11 Sergeant Beacock to the Superintendent Number 1 District 12 Headquarters. 13 And you'll see that at the second 14 paragraph, it's indicated as follows: 15 "At 10:35 hours, Maynard George, Stoney 16 Point member, Historian, contacted 17 myself by telephone and advised me that 18 the Stoney Point First Nations people 19 would be having a Notice served on the 20 Camp personnel by Bailiff J. Scott 21 Ewart, Bailiff for the Province of 22 Ontario, and following that service, 23 structures would be moved over to Camp 24 Ipperwash. 25 I attended the site and spoke with

1 Chief Carl George and Maynard George. 2 Maynard George gave me a copy of the 3 Notice, which was left at the Main Gate 4 Building, tacked to the wall." 5 Now, does that assist -- do you recall 6 having a meeting with the police officer in relation to 7 this Notice? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: It further indicates that, I was, and 10 I'll quote: 11 "I was also advised by Maynard George 12 that they would be serving a member of 13 the Ministry of Natural Resources and 14 moving buildings onto the Ipperwash 15 Province Park this date." 16 this date being May 18th, 1993. And indeed was notice 17 also provided to the Park officials? 18 A: I remember something like that, but 19 the -- I remember Maynard writing -- telling me about 20 this. I didn't -- like it says here, I didn't -- I 21 wasn't with him when he went up to the front main gate. 22 I remember Scott George serving the paper. 23 Q: Scott Ewart, you mean? 24 A: Scott Ewart. 25 Q: All right.

1 A: Yes. And I know the guards wouldn't 2 take it, so he did tack it to the wall. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: And I remember Maynard meeting with 5 the MNR head guy there. But to put a, like you say, put 6 a building on the land, but at that time we -- we just 7 wanted to more or less hand information out. We weren't 8 going to put any building on the land. 9 Q: All right. To distribute information 10 at the Park? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. But the point is really, 13 did -- did you intend and did you provide notice to both 14 Park officials and the Army Camp Military officials of -- 15 of your position that they were trespassing? 16 A: Trespassing. Yeah I'm pretty sure we 17 did, yeah. 18 Q: All right. And just for the record, 19 Maynard -- the Maynard George of whom you have been 20 speaking was Maynard Travis George; is that right? 21 A: That's right. 22 Q: Thank you. Make the May 18th, 1993 23 letter at Tab 7 the next exhibit please. 24 THE REGISTRAR: P-170. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-170.

1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-170: Document 2000667 OPP letter 2 May 18/'93 from E.B. Beacock 3 NO. 2156 Acting Staff 4 Sergeant Re: First Nations 5 Occupation CFB Ipperwash 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: Now why -- why were you giving 9 advance notice to the police of what your next step was 10 going to be? 11 A: So they knew that we were doing 12 everything in a peaceful fashion; we weren't going to 13 rush in. That's the main thing I -- like I said, I kept 14 trying to stress. I didn't want any violence to happen, 15 I didn't want -- I tried to let the Provincial Police 16 know up to that point everything what we were doing; that 17 we weren't going to block the roads and, you know, just 18 to keep everything in a peaceful fashion. 19 Q: All right. Now, do you recall also 20 entering into discussions with people from the Ministry 21 of Natural Resources in relation to trying to form an 22 understanding or co-management arrangement with respect 23 to the Park and in particular relating to your ability to 24 distribute information at the Park? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: I would like you to look at a 2 document at Tab 9 of your Book of Documents, it's Inquiry 3 Document Number 1006450, the letter dated May 19, 1993. 4 And perhaps you could look at the second page of that 5 letter. 6 Is that your signature over the line Chief 7 Carl O. George? 8 A: Yes, it is. 9 Q: Okay. And it indicates -- it's 10 addressed to the Ministry of Natural Resources. It says: 11 "Subject to a meeting between Chief 12 Carl O. George, Maynard Travis George 13 and Provincial Park official Mr. 14 Kobayashi, Ontario Provincial Police 15 4th Detachment on the status quo of the 16 operations management of the former 17 Ipperwash Provincial Park, the 18 following letter is of understanding 19 its issue." 20 And this indicated: 21 "That on March the 9th, 1993, 22 approximately thirty (30) days was 23 given the Ministry of Nature Resources 24 hereafter MNR via the Honourable Howard 25 Hanson (phonetic), MPP for the Province

1 of Ontario, a written notice to vacate 2 the above mentioned lands." 3 Now do you recall providing a notice to 4 vacate to the Honourable Howard Hanson? 5 A: Yeah, we probably did. Like I say a 6 lot of these things -- it's been quite a while now and 7 yeah, we probably did. 8 Q: And in the next paragraph it says: 9 "On May 18th --" 10 So the day before this letter -- 11 "1993, notice was served by a Mr. J. 12 Scott Ewart, a Bailiff for the Province 13 of Ontario on the Ipperwash Provincial 14 Park in right of Section 129, 129 (c), 15 (d) and (e) of the Protection of 16 Reserves in Upper Canada, dated 17 November 8, 1850, that the Stoney Point 18 First Nation Number 42 of Aazhoodena 19 territory has seized lands in right of 20 our exclusive enjoyment and use as 21 Chippewas First Nations members." 22 And do you recall that now whether or not 23 that notice was delivered? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And then there is some principles

1 that you've outlined here. 2 " 1) A structure of approximately six 3 (6) metres square or twenty (20) feet 4 for an information booth on Native 5 Titles and History was sought to be 6 constructed at the Park. And equitable 7 division of the two hundred and sixty- 8 six (266) campground sites for 50/50 9 entitlement, utilizing regular 10 Ipperwash documentation for the 1993 11 season. 12 A third use of defined areas of this 13 for historical plaques commemorating 14 the uprooted families and veterans who 15 died while waiting to return home; 4) a 16 ceremony on Remembrance Day in right of 17 the living veterans and landowners at 18 Stoney Point with MNR officials and 19 other veterans." 20 Now, were these the principles that you 21 advanced with respect to an understanding to be reached 22 as between yourselves and the Provincial Government 23 concerning the Ipperwash Provincial Park? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And did you receive a response?

1 A: Hmm. I can't -- again, I can't 2 remember if we did or not. 3 Q: Do you recall whether or not you were 4 allowed to put up a structure in the Park for that 5 purpose? 6 A: Well, they probably said, No, but the 7 idea was to -- I think it ended up like they said that we 8 could have one (1) -- a portion in the store or something 9 like that to hand out pamphlets -- 10 Q: All right. 11 A: -- but I can't remember if that -- if 12 it was part of the store or another small building. I 13 know they said that we could have a -- a little section 14 there somewhere. 15 Q: All right. Were you given access to 16 half of the two hundred and sixty-six (266) campground 17 sites? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Were there historical plaques 20 erected, or at least locations designated for their 21 erection? 22 A: We pointed out where the grave sites 23 -- we figured they were, but that was about all I -- I 24 think. 25 Q: And was a ceremony held on

1 Remembrance Day, as suggested with respect to the 2 veterans in Stoney Point? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And I see that there are 5 a number of other signatures. This indicates that you 6 are presented as the Acting Chief, Maynard Travis George 7 as a Councillor, R. Janet Cloud as Councillor, Marlene 8 Cloud as a Councillor, Clifford George as a Councillor, 9 and Rosalie Manning (Elijah), with no such designation. 10 Was she also a Councillor or -- or -- what was her 11 position? 12 A: She was also a Councillor, but at 13 that time just prior to that we -- I think that's around 14 about the time that we figured we better have a -- people 15 wanted an election to just more or less have one (1) 16 person as spokesman and -- because we were having a 17 little bit of problem at that time. 18 Q: All right. So the election hadn't 19 happened yet. How did these people become the -- at 20 least come to present themselves as the Councillors at -- 21 A: Well -- 22 Q: -- at Stoney Point First Nation? 23 A: Maynard T. George had a problem with 24 writing documents and he wanted everything to look 25 professional and the rest of the people, they just went

1 along with it. 2 Q: All right. So is it fair to say that 3 there was a consensus as amongst the -- 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: -- Occupants that these people would 6 be presented for purposes of this letter in those 7 capacities? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Thank you. Would you kindly, 10 Commissioner, make that the next exhibit, please? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 171. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-171. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 14 15 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-171: Document 1006450, May 19/'93 16 letter from Stoney Point 17 First Nations Reserve No. 43 18 to Ministry of Natural 19 Resources 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 22 Q: Did you actually have any meetings 23 with the Honourable Howard Hanson -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- or -- or any other politician in

1 relation to your proposal? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Do you recall whether you had a 4 meeting with any Park officials in relation to this 5 proposal? 6 A: Well, Maynard T. George, he pretty 7 well went and met with them himself and maybe a few 8 others. I can't rightly remember, but I -- I know I 9 never really went to a meeting to meet with them. 10 Q: Okay. In any event you've relayed 11 your understanding of the Government -- the Provincial 12 Government's response to your proposal? 13 A: Hmm hmm. Yes. 14 Q: Is that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Thank you. All right, I'd like to go 17 next to Tab 12 of your documents. This is part of the 18 Inquiry Document Number 1007802. It's a letter dated May 19 19th, 1983 and its enclosing a Notice under the Trespass 20 Act. 21 Sorry, a notice under the Criminal Code 22 and the Protection of Indian Reserves and Upper Canada 23 Act, dated May 18th, 1993. 24 And I'll ask you first, is that your 25 signature on the letter to the Honourable Ralph Ferguson,

1 MP, Lambton, Middlesex constituency? 2 A: Yes, it is. 3 Q: And is your signature also reflected 4 on the May 18, 1993 Notice as Agent? 5 A: That's right, it is. 6 Q: Let's make that the next exhibit. 7 A: Yes, it is. 8 Q: Thank you. 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-172. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 172. 11 12 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-172: Document 1007802, May 19/'93 13 Letter to Honourable Ralph 14 Ferguson MP from Chief Carl 15 O. George and Councillor 16 Maynard T. George 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: And to your knowledge, was this 20 Notice then -- firstly this is the Notice that -- that 21 was delivered in relation to what lands? 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: Oh, it's got the -- Enniskillen

1 lands. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: All right, perhaps you can tell me 6 what the Enniskillen lands were? 7 A: Well, the Enniskillen lands is just 8 outside of Petrolia and it was also a reserve quite a 9 while back. And since then I think it has been resolved 10 or a compensation package was handed out, I'm pretty 11 sure. 12 Q: And the second -- 13 A: And I didn't -- 14 Q: Sorry. 15 A: I didn't keep too close tabs on -- on 16 that. 17 Q: The second paragraph indicates that 18 the Notice as being transmitted within the -- to -- 19 within the Stoney Point Indian Reserve Number 43 on 20 Aazhoodena territory. 21 Does that assist with respect to what this 22 Notice related to? 23 A: It probably had something to do with 24 it, yes. 25 Q: All right. And the last paragraph of

1 the letter reads: 2 "We consider any payment made by the 3 Federal Government known or unknown by 4 our people to the council of the Kettle 5 Point Reserve Number 44 under the 6 heading of the Kettle and Stony Point 7 Council and acts to prohibit or 8 diminish our credibility and legal 9 right to proceed on our legal seizure 10 and repossession of our lands." 11 Does that assist you then, in 12 understanding what this Notice related to? 13 A: Well, I have to explain there's a lot 14 of times that Maynard T. George, he wrote a lot of these 15 letters and up -- and he explained to me real quickly and 16 I just more or less signed them, because -- to get things 17 moving and, you know, I kind of trusted him in certain 18 ways and so a lot of these I can't even -- I can't even 19 recall half of them. 20 Q: Let me ask you this, then: Was it 21 part of your plan to occupy any other lands, like the 22 Enniskillen lands? 23 A: No, it wasn't. 24 Q: All right. And was there any further 25 action taken with resp -- to your knowledge, by your

1 group with respect to advancing this claim, with respect 2 to the Enniskillen -- 3 A: No. 4 Q: -- land? Thank you. And we'll make 5 that the next exhibit. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 173. 7 THE REGISTRAR: What document is that? 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Sorry, it's 1007802. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm 10 sorry, that's 172. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you, my 12 apologies. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 14 document 170 -- Exhibit P-172. 15 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you very much. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, it is, Your Honour. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: All right. Now, it is fair to say 20 that, from time to time, you gave interviews to the 21 media? 22 A: