1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 8th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )    (np)
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein ) (np)       The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       ) (np)       George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    ) (np)       Student-at-Law  
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )   (np)       Kettle Point & Stony
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Sue Freeborn     )   (np)
 25  Michelle Pong    )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )   (np)       The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )              Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 11  
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  
 15  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 16  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 17  
 18  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 19  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 20  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 21  
 22  Ian Roland       )              Ontario Provincial 
 23  Karen Jones      )   (np)       Police Association &
 24  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 25  Ian McGilp       )   (np)

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  Clem Nabigon     )   (np)
  7  
  8  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
  9  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 10  
 11  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 12  Matthew Horner   )
 13  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 14  
 15  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 16  Craig Mills      )
 17  
 18  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 19  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 20  Melissa Panjer   )
 21  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 22  
 23  
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 Jeremiah James George, Resumed 6 Cross-examination by Mr. Andrew Orkin 7 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 11 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 14 9 Cross-examination by Mr. Ian Roland 21 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. William Hourigan 75 11 Re-Direct Examination br Mr. Donald Worme 84 12 13 Charles Francis George, Affirmed 14 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 87 15 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 197 16 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 201 17 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 214 18 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 260 19 20 Certificate of Transcript 272 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-161 Document 1002409, Page 13, Map of 97 4 Ipperwash Military Reserve marked by 5 Witness Charles George, February 08/05 6 7 P-162 "Stan" Thompson drawing September 122 8 20/'95 Marked by Witness Charles George, 9 February 08/'95 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:01 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, Mr. 7 Commissioner. We still have the witness Jeremiah George 8 on the stand and I've reminded him that he remains under 9 oath. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much. Good morning. Who's first up. I guess it's 12 Mr. Orkin. 13 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Good morning, 14 Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 16 morning. 17 18 JEREMIAH JAMES GEORGE, Resumed: 19 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 21 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 22 A: Good morning. 23 Q: My name is Andrew Orkin. I'm Co- 24 counsel to the Dudley George Estate and the Sam George 25 Family Group and its members. I have only a few

1 questions for you. 2 Yesterday you testified that as a result 3 of hearing and your brother hearing on a police scanner 4 that it was likely that the police were moving in on the 5 occupiers at the -- at the Camp. 6 That as a result of hearing that, you and 7 your brother made efforts to go down to the Camp, is that 8 correct? 9 A: Yes, it's correct. 10 Q: To the Park, excuse me. 11 A: Yeah. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I see Mr. 13 Roland is rising. 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: My Friend has to get the 15 evidence right. As I reviewed the evidence last night, 16 this witness said he didn't hear anything on the scanner 17 himself. It was his brother who heard on the scanner and 18 relayed it to him. 19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that's correct, 20 sorry. 21 MR. IAN ROLAND: My Friend has then said 22 you heard it on the scanner with your brother which isn't 23 the accurate. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 25 very much, Mr. Roland.

1 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Thank you for the 2 correction, Mr. Roland. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 5 Q: It was as a result of his brother 6 having heard and he having heard from your brother? 7 A: Yes, sorry. 8 Q: Thank you. You then made efforts, 9 you testified, to get down to the Park and having failed 10 to get there via a police checkpoint, you went there by 11 another route? 12 A: That's correct. 13 Q: You did manage along with your 14 brother to reach the vicinity of the Park and boundary of 15 the Park? 16 A: Yes, that's correct. 17 Q: And to engage in conversation with 18 some of the people who were occupying the Park at that 19 time? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: In the course of engaging in that 22 conversation, were you able to gain a general impression 23 of the circumstances in the Park at that time, the number 24 of people and the mood and the amount of activity? 25 A: Yeah, but not fully.

1 Q: Not fully? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: But within the vicinity in which you 4 were standing? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And that was in the vicinity of the 7 sandy parking lot and the -- and the boundary of the 8 Park? 9 A: Not the full parking lot. 10 Q: Not the full parking lot? 11 A: Yeah, just a few minutes before -- 12 Q: You then testified that you had seen 13 or saw a number of police officers wearing what you 14 called riot -- riot gear? Riot police gear? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Right. And you gave us an impression 17 that you -- you -- you saw a -- a number of -- a certain 18 number of police officers. 19 Could you -- could you remind us what that 20 number was? 21 A: I said maybe thirty (30) wide and I 22 don't know how many behind us, roughly one (1) to two 23 hundred (200), I believe I said that. 24 Q: Right. In your view, on the basis of 25 what you saw in terms of numbers of people in the Park at

1 that time, occupying the vicinity of the Park that you 2 saw, was there anything in -- in your view as an observer 3 that justified the number of police officers you saw in 4 riot gear? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Was there anything that justified in 7 your view looking at what you saw in the Park in terms of 8 activity that justified a riot force, which we would 9 understand from its name is to confront riots? 10 A: No, I don't believe that was 11 justified as well. 12 Q: Thank you. Those are all of my 13 questions. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 very much, Mr. Orkin. Ms. Esmonde...? 16 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JACKIE ESMONDE: 18 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 19 A: Morning. 20 Q: My name is Jackie Esmonde, I'm one 21 (1) of the lawyers representing the Aazhoodena and George 22 Family Group which includes some of the descendants of 23 Dan and Melva George. I also just have a few questions 24 for you this morning. 25 Now, I understand you were nineteen (19)

1 at the time of these events in September of 1995; is that 2 correct? 3 A: Yes, I -- yes. 4 Q: And you understood from your brother 5 Bernard George, you told us yesterday, that the police 6 were moving in in force. 7 And do I understand you that it was your 8 understanding from what was told to you that the police 9 were moving into the Park? 10 A: That they were moving in to move the 11 occupiers out, yes. 12 Q: To move the occupiers out of the 13 Park? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Now, later after you had heard the 16 shooting and you were on the beach you told us about your 17 encounter with Chief Tom Bressette, Gerald George, 18 Roseanne (phonetic) Bressette and Deanna (phonetic) 19 Bressette. 20 Did you hear Chief Tom Bressette say 21 anything to the effect of, It's Mike Harris' fault, 22 that's what he wanted? 23 A: No, I don't recall that statement 24 particularly, no. 25 Q: When Gerald George was here January

1 13th of 2005 he said, We were all saying that, some -- 2 that we were all saying it was Mike Harris' fault. 3 Did you ever say Gerald George say 4 anything to that effect? 5 A: No, I don't remember that statement 6 completely, no. 7 Q: Now, you told us yesterday that you 8 had kicked the St. John's Ambulance vehicle in the MNR 9 parking on September 7th? 10 A: Yes, that's correct, I did say that. 11 Q: And why did you do that? 12 A: I had a lot of emotions then. I just 13 probably felt -- I don't know -- 14 Q: Now, I've come to learn that hunting 15 season is generally from fall -- fall to winter, perhaps 16 October to February? Is that right? 17 A: I also stated I'm not much of a 18 hunter, so. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I couldn't tell you the seasons. 21 Q: Okay. You were telling us about 22 people hunting at Stoney Point and hunting for deer? 23 A: I just recall seeing deer. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: So, it's just a normal thing for

1 natives to do, I guess. 2 Q: Is it your understanding that people 3 were hunting during the hunting season? 4 A: Yeah, I believe I did see deer. 5 Q: And when you saw deer it was in the 6 fall or winter? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: Thank you, those are all my 9 questions. Thank you very much for coming. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 11 very much. Is that Mr. Ross, are you -- did you have any 12 questions, I don't recall. Yes. Anybody else? Mr. 13 Rosenthal, no, Ms. Esmonde has just done it, so that's 14 fine. 15 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Thank you, Mr. 16 Commissioner. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 19 Q: Mr. George, my name is Anthony Ross 20 and I represent the residents of Aazhoodena. Now you 21 were living at Stoney Point in 1993. Am I correct with 22 that? 23 A: No, I've never lived in Stoney Point. 24 Q: Sorry, Kettle Point in 1993? 25 A: Yes, yeah.

1 Q: Now, that was the year when people 2 moved onto the range. Do you -- do you recall that? 3 A: Yes, I recall people living on the 4 range. 5 Q: Did you visit the range at any time? 6 A: Yes, I did. I believe I stated I 7 did. 8 Q: You believe what? 9 A: I believe that I stated that I went 10 to see people. 11 Q: Did you overnight on the range from 12 time to time? 13 A: Pardon me? 14 Q: Did you overnight? 15 A: No, I did not. 16 Q: I see. You just visited from time to 17 time during the occupation after May 1993? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: Now did you understand the reason for 20 the occupation in May 1993? 21 A: The reason has always been to try to 22 get the land back. 23 Q: Trying to get the land back. Is it 24 fair to say that it was an effort to bring political 25 pressure on the Government of Canada so that they'll

1 change their position and return the land? 2 A: Yes, that's correct. 3 Q: And do you agree with me that that 4 was a worthwhile approach after years of unsuccessful 5 negotiation? 6 A: Yes. I believe it was. 7 Q: And throughout 1993 there were not 8 any incidents or con -- no confrontation that led to any 9 problems. 10 Is that correct, to the best of your 11 knowledge? 12 A: To the best of my knowledge. 13 Q: And the same for 1994? 14 A: Yes, that's correct. 15 Q: And would you agree with me that but 16 for what happened around September 1995 -- would you 17 agree with me that but for what happened in 1995 around 18 September it still would have been a good idea to keep 19 occupying the range until the government responded 20 seriously to the claims of the original owners of that 21 land? 22 A: If they would have just stayed in the 23 range? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: And never moved any -- anywhere

1 further? 2 Q: Well, now you recognize that around 3 July of 1995 they moved and occupied the barracks? 4 A: I -- I'm not sure of the dates, no. 5 Q: You were -- but -- but you knew that 6 they occupied the barracks at one (1) point? 7 A: Yeah, I knew they occupied the -- 8 Q: And that did not result in any 9 confrontation. The Military moved out, gave them the key 10 showed them how to operate different systems? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: That was not a problem, was it? 13 A: No. 14 Q: No. So really the difficulty results 15 from the occupation of what was Ipperwash Provincial Park 16 and the confrontation thereafter. 17 Is that a fair statement, in your view? 18 A: Can you say that again? 19 Q: The difficulty developed after the 20 occupation of what was Ipperwash Provincial Park and the 21 confrontation which flowed from it, resulting in the 22 death of Dudley George? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Yeah. So that -- and you moved away 25 from the area in 1996, am I correct?

1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And was it a permanent move? Did you 3 go to -- to Edmonton or to Alberta and stay there or -- 4 or have you back for periods of time? 5 A: No, I just recently moved to Calgary. 6 Q: You just moved to Calgary. In your - 7 - my -- my understanding of your evidence to -- to Mr. 8 Worme that you -- you moved away in 1996. 9 A: Yeah. I moved away from Kettle Point 10 and I stated that I moved to Sarnia and Windsor and 11 London. I just recently moved to Calgary -- 12 Q: I see. 13 A: -- like, seven (7) months ago. 14 Q: I see. I see. As far as the -- the 15 individuals who -- who made the move onto the range back 16 in 1993, my understanding that nobody was looking for -- 17 for any individual gain. There was no idea for instance, 18 that Carl George or -- or Maynard George or anybody was 19 looking for a deed in their own name. It was party of a 20 political move on behalf of the original owners of that 21 land. 22 Was that your understanding? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Now, recognizing that you were just 25 around nineteen (19) at that time, is it fair to say that

1 you -- you had heard stories about attempts by your 2 people to get back those lands since 1942? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: And you were living at Kettle Point 5 when Clifford George was arrested in 1993? 6 A: I'm not aware, I don't -- 7 Q: You weren't aware of that? 8 A: I don't recall. 9 Q: You don't recall that? Fine. Were 10 you aware that Clifford George was arrested with respect 11 to actions on that land? 12 A: No, I wasn't aware of that. 13 Q: Okay. But you heard from your elders 14 about attempts to get the lands back going back to 1942? 15 A: Yes. I'm not sure of, like, all 16 instances or, like -- but I -- I knew that they did want 17 it back. 18 Q: And there were general efforts 19 attempting to get the land back? 20 A: I'm not particularly sure of any, 21 like, of all or what circumstances were -- 22 Q: No, I'm not asking for all of them, 23 I'm asking just about the general understanding that this 24 land was never abandoned and it was always the intent to 25 get that land back to the original owners.

1 A: Yes. Okay, yes, that's -- that's a 2 fair statement. Yeah. 3 Q: And negotiations did not appear to be 4 going anywhere as evidenced by the fact that up to 1993 5 the lands were still in the hands of the Federal 6 Government? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: So the actions in 1993, as far as the 9 occupation is concerned, is it fair to classify these as 10 political actions intended to influence government 11 policy? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Thank you very much, sir, those are 14 my questions. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 16 very much. 17 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: I have no 18 questions. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have no 20 questions. 21 MR. MATTHEW HORNER: I have no questions. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No 23 questions? Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 24 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I have no 25 questions either, Commissioner.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 2 Roland...? 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 5 Q: Good morning, Mr. George, my name's 6 Ian Roland and I represent the Ontario Provincial Police 7 Association and I have a few questions for you this 8 morning. 9 Let me begin with the evidence really 10 largely in the order in which you gave it yesterday in 11 response to Mr. Worme's questions. And early in your 12 evidence he asked you about hunting at Stoney Point and 13 you indicated that you -- you were hunting there 14 occasionally. You were asked who you hunted with and you 15 said, My brother's cousins. 16 Now, Mr. Worme didn't ask you which 17 brothers and which cousins, so I'm going to ask you that 18 question. Which brothers and which cousins did you hunt 19 with at Stoney Point? 20 A: I don't know if I find that a 21 relevant question or -- 22 Q: Well, that's for the Commissioner 23 to -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You have to 25 answer the question, sir; that's the way to determine

1 that they're not -- 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. I said -- I said my 3 brother and some cousins and I didn't say my brother and 4 his cousins because they'd be -- we'd be the same 5 cousins. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 8 Q: No, no. You said, "My brother's 9 cousins" and let's start with your brothers, which -- 10 A: Well, maybe it didn't come out 11 clearly. I meant to say my brother and his cousins. 12 Q: All right. Sorry. 13 A: Which is -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: I mean, my brother and -- and 16 cousins, like -- because they'd be the same cousins as 17 mine. 18 Q: Whatever, just -- 19 A: Yeah, okay. 20 Q: -- tell -- tell us who the 21 individuals were if you could? 22 A: At the time it was -- it'd just been 23 people that I've always hung out with, Darryl Riley 24 (phonetic), Wolf Boslow (phonetic) -- 25 Q: Sorry?

1 A: Wolf Boslow, Marshall Bressette -- 2 Q: Can you spell -- Wolf Boslow? I don't 3 know who -- 4 A: Wolf -- Wolfie? 5 Q: Wolf? 6 A: Boslow. I don't know how you spell, 7 Boslow. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I couldn't if I tried. 10 Q: All right. Sorry, after that? 11 A: Marshall Bressette. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: Albert George would be my brother. 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: That's about it, really. 16 Q: Okay. And when you were hunting with 17 your brother and cousins, were you hunting deer? 18 A: I only went a few times and didn't 19 get anything the times that I went. 20 Q: What were you trying to hunt? What 21 were you looking for to hunt? 22 A: At that time it was rabbits were in 23 season and deer. 24 Q: Okay. Now then Mr. Worme asked you 25 about visits to the barracks once the occupiers had

1 entered the Army barracks and you were asked if you had 2 an occasion to visit. And you said that you went to 3 visit your brother when you could. Mr. Worme then asked 4 you, I take it on more than one (1) occasion. He assumed 5 it was more than one occasion and you said, Yeah. 6 About how many occasions did you visit the 7 barracks between July 29,'95 which was the date that they 8 were occupied by the occupiers and September 6th, '95? 9 A: Twenty (20) or thirty (30) times 10 maybe. 11 Q: Twenty (20) or thirty (30) times? 12 A: Yes. Somewhere around there 13 Q: So almost on a daily basis? 14 A: Actually wait -- no. From -- okay 15 where did you say? 16 Q: July -- the barracks. To help you 17 the barracks -- 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: -- were occupied by the occupiers on 20 -- who had been on the range, on July 29, 1995. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: A little over a month later the 23 incident occurred at the Park. We know that Dudley 24 George was shot and killed on September 6th, '95, so 25 we're talking about a month and a week, maybe five (5)

1 weeks. And it's that five (5) week period I'm asking 2 about. 3 How often you visited your brother in the 4 barracks? 5 A: Actually no, it wasn't that many 6 times. Two (2) three (3) times maybe. 7 Q: Okay. Now Mr. Worme asked you 8 yesterday about folks who were the occupiers of the 9 barracks, he referred to them as folks, with a different 10 political out -- outlook. Do you remember that? 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: He asked you about that and you said 13 yes, you had to have him explain what he meant, but you 14 then said, that you think there was some disagreement on 15 how the council was being run at Kettle Point. And you 16 talked about the fact that they, the occupiers, didn't 17 like how the chief was running it and so on. 18 Do you remember saying that yesterday? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And I'm going to ask you 21 about a matter that occurred during the occupation. But 22 before I do, I want to ask you a little bit about your -- 23 your brother Cecil Bernard George. He's -- he's quite a 24 lot older than you I gather? 25 A: Yeah, he's older than I am.

1 Q: And are you close to him and were you 2 close to him back in 1995; that is, did you have a close 3 relationship as brothers? 4 A: Probably close as an older brother 5 and younger sibling can have I guess. 6 Q: Yes. And did you see him quite 7 frequently? 8 A: Typically, I guess. 9 Q: Like more than -- more than weekly? 10 A: Not more than weekly, no. 11 Q: So you didn't see him on a daily 12 basis? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Would you see him at least once a 15 week or a couple of times a week? 16 A: Maybe once a month, maybe. 17 Q: Once a month, okay. We know that and 18 you've told us this, on September the 6th you went to his 19 home, you visited him at his own on September the 6th. 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: Yes. And when you were visiting or 22 meeting or seeing him, would you tend to visit him at his 23 home? 24 A: I just stated -- maybe once a month. 25 Q: Yeah. Okay. Where did you live

1 yourself in September -- in August and September of '95 2 at Kettle Point? 3 A: My mother's residence. 4 Q: All right. And was that close to 5 your brother's residence or not? 6 A: No, it wasn't. 7 Q: Now we've heard that there was a 8 meeting of the members of the Kettle Point residents on 9 August the 1st, '95. It was a meeting that immediately 10 followed the occupation, which remember I've told you 11 occurred on July 29, '95 and it was a fairly large 12 meeting. There were a lot of Kettle Point residents and 13 I assume a few Stoney Point residents in attendance. 14 Did you attend that meeting? 15 A: No, I didn't. 16 Q: All right. Did you hear about the 17 meeting? 18 A: I wasn't even aware of it until now. 19 Q: All right. Were you aware that, as I 20 gather, during August of '95 that there was some -- as 21 Mr. Worme would call it, some political difference 22 between the Stoney Point occupiers and the Kettle Point 23 residents about the -- the propriety of the occupation, 24 whether they -- the Stoney Pointers should have taken 25 over the barracks or not?

1 A: I don't know, I'm not -- I'm not 2 aware of any meetings or anything that took place. I 3 didn't involve myself in any meetings whatsoever so I 4 couldn't make any kind of statement on any kind of 5 meetings. 6 Q: All right. So you -- you didn't -- 7 apart from meetings were you aware of a difference 8 between the Stoney Point occupiers on the one (1) hand 9 and the Kettle Point residents on the other concerning -- 10 the difference was concerning whether or not it was 11 something that -- that the occupation was something that 12 should or shouldn't have occurred? 13 A: Yes, I was aware of that. I've 14 heard -- 15 Q: You heard that? 16 A: I've heard that. 17 Q: Okay. And did you know that your 18 brother Cecil Bernard, on Saturday, August the 12th went 19 to the barracks and issued a warning to Les Jewel that he 20 and his warriors are to leave the Camp by that day? 21 A: Like I said, I don't know, I wasn't 22 aware of any sort of political action that took place. 23 I -- 24 Q: So you didn't know that your brother 25 had done that; that he had gone --

1 A: No. 2 Q: -- to issue that direction and 3 warning to Les Jewel and the -- referred to as, the -- 4 "his warriors" to leave the Camp barracks? 5 A: I'm not aware of that, no. 6 Q: For the record, I'm referring to a 7 recently produced DND document that indicates this 8 incident occurred. We've just come across this, it's 9 Document 7000358. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Now, in the course of giving your 14 account of what you saw on the roadway on the evening of 15 September the 6th, you referred to the police dressed in 16 bullet-proof vests with shields and assault rifles. And 17 having said that, Mr. Worme asked you: 18 "Okay, I take it you know something 19 about firearms?" 20 He seems to assume you do, and you say: 21 "Yeah." 22 And then you go on to say, when he asks 23 you about -- more particular about the firearms and to 24 describe them you say: 25 "I -- I know guns, but I don't know,

1 like, what kind of guns they were." 2 Do you remember saying that yesterday? 3 A: Yeah, I remember saying that. 4 Q: And let me ask you about firearms. 5 You say you're not much of a hunter? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And so I take it you don't use, and 8 haven't in your life, used firearms much, if at all? 9 A: I've used firearms. 10 Q: You have? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: Okay. And do you collect firearms? 13 A: No, I don't. 14 Q: Do you own firearms? 15 A: No, I don't. 16 Q: Have you ever owned firearms? 17 A: No, I don't, or I haven't. Sorry. 18 Q: Have you ever purchased any firearms? 19 A: No, I haven't. 20 Q: Have you ever had any training -- 21 formal training -- in fire -- use of firearms? 22 A: No, I haven't had any sort of 23 training. 24 Q: Okay. So you don't really know that 25 much about firearms then, do you?

1 A: I know enough. 2 Q: Well, -- 3 A: I -- I feel I know enough. I can 4 load one, but -- 5 Q: You can load one and you can -- 6 A: Clean one, I -- I don't know. I just 7 don't -- I'm not particular on what makes and models 8 and -- 9 Q: Kinds of firearms? 10 A: -- types of bullets. Yeah. 11 Q: I see. 12 A: I don't know. I guess I know 13 firearms, but I'm not an expert. 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: Is -- if that's what you're implying. 16 Q: Yeah. And so it -- and I take it you 17 couldn't -- if shown a firearm you couldn't tell whether 18 it -- what -- what calibre it was or what make it was and 19 so on? 20 A: That's correct. 21 Q: You could not tell that? 22 A: If it was a particular gun I knew I 23 could, but if it was, I don't know, like a -- 24 Q: A gun you weren't familiar with -- 25 A: -- M-15 I wouldn't know.

1 Q: Okay. 2 A: You know? 3 Q: Okay, let me then take you to 4 September the 6th. And you told Mr. Worme yesterday that 5 it was in the evening time and you went to your brother's 6 house, that is Cecil Bernard's house, at Kettle Point. 7 And can you tell us about what time you 8 did that, what time you went? 9 A: I believe I said it was in the 10 evening, so. 11 Q: And was it still -- was -- was it, at 12 the time you went to his house, not when you left, but 13 the time you went to his house, was it still -- 14 A: It was getting dark. 15 Q: It was getting dark, was it? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Was -- had the sun set at that stage? 18 A: It was about setting. 19 Q: It was about to set? 20 A: Yeah, like, half hour to go maybe. 21 Q: All right. 22 A: It was getting pretty dark, yeah. 23 Q: All right, and so -- and how long 24 were you at his house? 25 A: Not very long, half hour, because

1 when we left his house it was dark. 2 Q: It was dark? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Because you told us -- 5 A: I believe it was dark. 6 Q: You told us yesterday that when you 7 left his house and your drove with your brother and 8 Roseanne, his wife, that you went towards the Park and 9 you were stopped by a police barricade and you backed up 10 and got out to the beach. And you said at that stage 11 when asked at approximately what time it was, you said: 12 "It was, I believe the sun had gone 13 down". 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Right, now you're down at the beach-- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- and the beach faces -- when you're 18 at the beach, you're facing in a -- in a north and 19 westerly direction, right? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And the sun sets in the west, we all 22 know that? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And was it twilight? Could you see 25 to walk along the beach or was it dark at that stage?

1 A: It was dark. There was -- I believe 2 there was a full moon, I think. I don't know, I don't 3 remember. 4 Q: You don't remember? 5 A: Particularly, no. 6 Q: All right, and -- and so it was about 7 then, you say, it was about twilight, the sun had gone 8 down. 9 You went to your brother's house, you were 10 there half an hour or less? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: You then went -- drove along to get 13 to the Park, were stopped, backed up, went to the beach, 14 walked along the beach with your brother. He's testified 15 that took about five (5) minutes to get to the Park; is 16 that a fair estimate? 17 A: Yes, about five (5) minutes. 18 Q: All right, and so have -- having left 19 your brother's house and getting to the Park, would it be 20 fair to say that would be ten (10) maybe fifteen (15) 21 minutes? 22 A: To get from my brother's to the Park? 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: Yeah, like it's probably, roughly. 25 Q: Okay.

1 A: Not exactly fifteen (15) minutes. 2 Could be over, could be under. 3 Q: All right, all right. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: Now, did you -- had you realized at 8 that stage that your brother had been to the Park earlier 9 that evening? Had he told you that? 10 A: I don't recall. 11 Q: All right, and did he -- do you 12 recall that he had, at some stage, been to the Park, and 13 left a scanner at the Park? 14 A: No, I don't -- I don't recall. 15 Q: Yeah, all right. You've told us that 16 don't recall your brother carrying anything with him when 17 you and he walked along the beach? 18 A: That's -- yeah, that's what I said 19 and that's -- I don't believe he was carrying anything or 20 I can't remember. 21 Q: All right, but we do know from his 22 evidence and from others, including your brother Stacey, 23 that he had walkie-talkies with him. And you -- you've 24 told us, I think, you told Mr. Worme yesterday that you'd 25 reviewed that evidence from others, from either Stacey or

1 your brother when you came to prepare to give your 2 evidence here. 3 And you realized that they had indicated 4 that -- in their evidence, that he had walkie-talkie 5 radios? 6 A: In their statements, yeah well, 7 that's to their recollection, not to mine. 8 Q: Yeah. So you don't disagree that he 9 had them, you just don't remember? 10 A: I don't remember. 11 Q: Now when you arrived at the -- at the 12 Park at the location where the beach of the Park begins, 13 we know and we've seen on the map that was put up that 14 there's a boundary line. 15 And I understand your evidence yesterday, 16 your brother Stacey was near the beach -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- on the east side, that is the Park 19 side of that boundary line? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And he was there at a fire? 22 A: That's correct. 23 Q: All right. And you said to us that 24 you don't know how long you talked to him. I gather that 25 was a fairly short discussion though, was it?

1 A: Yeah. It wasn't extensive. 2 Q: And Stacey testified before us that 3 you told him that were a bunch a lot of police and that 4 the police had guns. 5 Do you remember saying that to Stacey? 6 A: No, I don't. 7 Q: And he said that you had made your 8 observations at the end of East Parkway Drive because 9 that's where you and your brother, Cecil Bernard, had 10 walked up from. Do you remember telling him that? 11 A: No, I don't remember saying that. 12 Q: And he testified that you asked him 13 to leave to go to Kettle Point and he thinks that you 14 were scared for his safety; that is Stacey's safety. 15 Do you remember -- do you remember having 16 that emotion of being worried for Stacey's safety? 17 A: I believe I probably was. 18 Q: And did you remember asking him to 19 leave to go to -- go to Kettle Point with you? 20 A: No, I don't recall that statement. 21 Q: And Stacey says that when -- when he 22 decided not to go to stay, that you left and you left the 23 same way you came in, that is, along the beach. 24 A: I don't know if it's whatever his 25 statement. I don't know what he's -- what he remembers.

1 Q: That's what he recalls. But you say 2 you didn't leave at that stage. 3 A: I didn't leave at that stage, no I 4 didn't. 5 Q: You actually went up you say to the 6 turnstile area? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And I gather you were with Cecil 9 Bernard at the time? 10 A: Yes. Yeah I was. 11 Q: Now in Cecil Bernard's evidence, he 12 said that when he and you came upon Stacey, that he let 13 people know to be careful, that there were a lot of 14 police down the road west of the Park. 15 Do you remember Cecil saying that to 16 Stacey and the others that were with Stacey? 17 A: It's -- well I don't remember his 18 particular -- what he said in particular. I don't recall 19 any sort of statements that he made to anybody. 20 Q: So that's -- so -- you don't really 21 remember what Cecil said at all at that stage? 22 A: I don't remember, no. 23 Q: Now we know that -- that from Cecil's 24 evidence that he said he was there a very short time 25 talking to Stacey and then he walked up -- he says over

1 the hill and crossed over the fence into the Park. Did 2 you go with him? 3 A: I don't believe -- I don't remember 4 him going into the Park, no. 5 6 Q: You don't remember Cecil going into 7 the Park? 8 A: No, I don't. 9 Q: So when you walked up from the 10 location where you had, for a very short period of time, 11 spoken to Stacey at the beach up to the turnstile area 12 inside the Park, were you with your brother or not, that 13 is, with Cecil? 14 A: I don't remember if we split up for a 15 couple minutes or two (2) or what happened during that 16 time frame there but I know I was down the road with him, 17 at some point in time. 18 Q: You were down? 19 A: On East Parkway Drive. 20 Q: Yes. All right. 21 A: With -- 22 Q: But you don't recall whether you were 23 with Cecil Bernard coming up from the beach up to the 24 turnstile area? 25 A: Then going into the Park, I can't

1 recall if I went into the -- with him at that point or if 2 I walked along the fence and met up with him at the 3 beginning of the gate. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: And then proceeded to go down East 6 Parkway, I can't recall. 7 Q: You can't. Okay. Did you -- but did 8 you -- were you with him from the time that you were at 9 the turnstile gate, were you with Cecil Bernard from that 10 moment thereafter as you went down East Parkway Drive? 11 A: For a short amount of time, yeah, I 12 was with him. 13 Q: All right. Did -- before you went 14 down East Parkway Drive with Cecil Bernard, did he or you 15 go to the -- the store and make a telephone call? 16 A: I don't recall. 17 Q: No? 18 A: I didn't make any phone calls. 19 Q: And do you recall whether Cecil made 20 any phone calls? 21 A: I don't know. 22 Q: And is that because you weren't with 23 him or it's because you simply don't remember? 24 A: I simply don't remember. 25 Q: Now, you were asked by Mr. Worme

1 about the lighting of the area of the turnstile and you 2 said that you thought there was a fire in the area of the 3 turnstile, on the Park side of the -- of the boundary; 4 right? 5 A: I said I wasn't exactly sure, but I 6 said there might have been. 7 Q: I see. And given that if there might 8 have been a fire, I take it you don't recall how large 9 the fire was or how much light it was giving off? 10 A: No, I don't remember. 11 Q: And you were asked by Mr. Worme about 12 how the area might have been lit up, if at all. You did 13 mention there might be a fire. 14 Was there any other lighting that you 15 recall? 16 A: No, not that I can recall. 17 Q: And it was a -- it was a dark night, 18 wasn't it. 19 A: Yeah, it was fairly dark. 20 Q: And I take it's because it was fairly 21 dark, -- 22 A: Dark enough. 23 Q: -- that you really weren't able to 24 recognize the people who were there in the area of the 25 turnstile when you came up. You've told us you didn't

1 really -- you weren't able to see them very well because 2 it was dark; is that right? 3 A: That's correct. I don't -- I don't 4 know, yeah, I just don't remember. 5 Q: How long did you and Cecil Bernard 6 remain in the Park area near the turnstile before you 7 and he headed down East Parkway Drive? 8 A: I don't recall. 9 Q: Was it -- 10 A: I can't make -- 11 Q: -- five (5) minutes, half an hour, an 12 hour. 13 A: -- I can't make any sort of 14 statement, because I don't remember. 15 Q: So it could have been a substantial 16 period of time? 17 A: It could have been, it could have 18 been a short time. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: Now, we've heard evidence from your 23 brother, Cecil Bernard, about going down the road, and he 24 said to this Inquiry in evidence, that he had a stick in 25 his hand and one of the radios that he had brought in,

1 when he went down East Parkway Drive. 2 Do you remember him having a stick in his 3 hand and a radio in -- in the other hand? 4 A: I believe I said I didn't remember 5 what he was carrying. 6 Q: Do you remember if he was carrying 7 anything? 8 A: No. 9 Q: You don't? 10 A: No, I don't remember. 11 Q: So, as far as you can recall, he 12 wasn't carrying a thing? 13 A: I -- I can't remember if he was or if 14 he wasn't. If that's his statement, then I guess he was 15 carrying something, so why would he say he was when he 16 wasn't? I don't know. 17 Q: In any event, Mr. George, he 18 testified, that is your brother, Cecil Bernard, testified 19 that -- that two (2) young fellows came along with him, 20 and he said that it was David George and Kevin Thomas. 21 He didn't mention you, in his evidence. 22 Do you find that a little odd? 23 A: I don't know. 24 Q: And do you remember that David George 25 and Kevin -- do you know David George?

1 A: Yeah, I know David George. 2 Q: And do you know Kevin Thomas? 3 A: No, I don't. 4 Q: I see. 5 A: I don't -- 6 Q: Well, when you went along East 7 Parkway Drive with Cecil Bernard, do you remember the -- 8 there were two (2) -- that David George and another 9 fellow were also with you? 10 A: No, I don't recall them. 11 Q: And David George also talked about 12 going along the -- the -- East Parkway Drive, but he 13 didn't mention you. 14 Did you see David George at all going 15 along there? 16 A: I don't remember. 17 Q: Okay. Now, you told Mr. Worme 18 yesterday that if there was any kind of lighting allowed 19 to see the police down the -- East Parkway Drive and you 20 said there was a streetlight on the right-hand side. 21 Can you tell us where that streetlight 22 was? 23 A: From the corner it was the distance 24 normal streetlights usually are, I guess, from -- where 25 the corner -- the corner here is.

1 Q: And you're -- the Witness is pointing 2 to P-23 and -- and Mr. George, could you indicate to us 3 on that if you could if -- if that exhibit represents the 4 area where the streetlight, could you indicate to us 5 where it was? 6 A: Where the streetlight was? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: It wouldn't -- it wouldn't be on 9 this, it would be down further. 10 Q: It would be -- it'd be west from P- 11 23? And how far from -- you see the driveway that is on 12 the -- that leads off from East Parkway Drive, north from 13 it, if you look at P-23. 14 A: It's probably approximately -- 15 Q: How -- how much further west of that 16 driveway? 17 A: Four (4) laneways. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: Five (5)? 20 Q: And you say that streetlight allowed 21 you to see the police officers? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And were the -- when you 24 saw the police officers where were they in relationship 25 to the streetlight? Were they further west, under it, or

1 east of it? 2 A: East of it. 3 Q: They were east of it? They'd already 4 passed under it had they? 5 A: No, they were -- they were still that 6 way. 7 Q: That's -- sorry, I think that's west. 8 A: Well, west. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: They were west of it. 11 Q: So they were further along East 12 Parkway Drive than the location of the streetlight? 13 A: Yes, correct. 14 Q: And -- and when you first saw them, 15 how much beyond the streetlight were they? 16 A: I don't recall. I can't remember 17 how far, exactly, they were. 18 Q: Well, were they close enough to the 19 streetlight that you could see them visibly as a result 20 of this -- the illumination of the streetlight? 21 Were they that close to it? 22 A: They were close enough where I could 23 see there was a lot of them. 24 Q: Yeah. You've said -- you said 25 yesterday that you estimated there were about -- probably

1 about two hundred (200). And I think this morning to the 2 response of somebody else you said a hundred (100) to two 3 hundred (200). 4 The evidence is -- is going to be, I 5 understand, that there were, I think, fairly between 6 forty-five (45) and fifty (50) officers that were there 7 visible. I think the actual number, at least, shown in 8 the records is forty-two (42), but -- on the street, but 9 there may have been a few others as well. 10 Can you explain how you seemed to have 11 thought there was a hundred (100) to two hundred (200) 12 when the evidence, apparently, is going to be that there 13 were between forty (40) and fifty (50)? 14 A: Well, if that's what the evidence is, 15 then that's what it is, but to me it appeared to be that 16 many. 17 Q: It just seemed like there were a lot? 18 A: Yeah, an excessive amount of cops 19 that didn't need to be there. 20 Q: I'm sorry? 21 A: There was an excessive amount of cops 22 that didn't need to be there. 23 Q: I see. Now, so that I understand 24 your evidence, when you saw those police officers, which 25 you estimated at between a hundred (100) and two hundred

1 (200) were you next to Cecil Bernard? Were you right 2 beside him? 3 A: I can't recall where I was. 4 Q: I take it -- 5 A: Or how close he was. 6 Q: You were close enough that he spoke 7 to you and told you to go -- run back to alert -- 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: -- the people at the Park, right? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: So you were within a fairly close 12 distance to him in that sense, right? 13 A: Yeah, I guess I was. 14 Q: And did you notice that he had a 15 radio in his hand at that stage and was using the radio, 16 on his evidence, to alert the people in the Park, to call 17 back on the radio to the people in the Park? 18 Did you notice that? 19 A: I don't remember. 20 Q: Did you hear that? 21 A: No, because we weren't hollering -- 22 Q: I'm sorry? 23 A: I said we weren't loud when were 24 there, so he could have been, like, just whispering to 25 them and then, like.

1 Q: Okay, then you say you went back to 2 the people in the Park to alert them that the police were 3 coming, let them know the police were coming? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: Yeah, that's what you've been -- you 6 say you were told by your brother to do, and you did it? 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: And then you immediately went down to 9 the beach area, you say, where your brother Stacey was? 10 A: Yeah, and that's when I talked to him 11 a second time and -- 12 Q: I'm sorry? 13 A: I said that's when I talked to him 14 for the second time. 15 Q: Yes. And did you -- what did you say 16 to him at that stage? 17 A: I just told him that I was going 18 along the beach and to see if there was any -- any 19 officers coming up from that point. 20 Q: And why did you want to see if there 21 were any officers coming up along the beach? What was 22 your purpose? 23 A: What was my purpose? To see if there 24 was any officers coming from that point. 25 Q: But why?

1 A: I don't know. I felt that's what I 2 was going to do next, so that's what I did. 3 Q: And if you saw some officers coming 4 up the beach, what did you intend to do as a result of 5 seeing officers on the beach? 6 A: I don't know my full intentions. I 7 don't -- like my intentions were to go down there and 8 alert the occupants that the police were moving in with 9 force and that they should, like, evacuate. 10 I wasn't going there to assist them and -- 11 to have a confrontation with the police. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: That wasn't my intention, so I don't 14 know what you're -- that's -- I don't know what I would 15 have done if I would have confronted -- if I would have 16 met into the police. 17 Q: So if you -- if you'd seen police on 18 the beach, you don't know what you would have done as a 19 result of that? Is that what you're telling us? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And when you got to the beach, I 22 gather it was pretty dark by then? 23 A: Yeah, it was. 24 Q: Yeah. You couldn't see very far at 25 all, could you?

1 A: No, I never had a flashlight either. 2 Q: Yeah, so without a flashlight, you 3 couldn't see much at all, could you? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Right, and you then walked in a 6 westerly direction along the beach? 7 A: That is towards Kettle Point? 8 Q: Yes. 9 A: Correct. 10 Q: Yeah, you -- I think Mr. Worme, with 11 great respect, was a little challenged by distances. On 12 the record he suggested you walked east towards Kettle 13 Point, rather than -- 14 MR. DONALD WORME: I won't argue with 15 that. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 18 Q: -- west and so that -- but the 19 record, I think should be clear that you were walking 20 towards Kettle Point, which is -- we've treated as a 21 westerly direction. 22 A: Okay. 23 Q: Right. 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And how far from the point of -- of

1 the Park boundary, that is the western part of the Park 2 boundary which carries down to the beach, towards Kettle 3 Point did you walk along the beach? 4 A: How far did I walk before what? 5 Q: Before you heard -- you say you heard 6 some gun shots? You heard some noise, first of all? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: I wasn't that far. I was on the 11 beach, pretty much. 12 Q: I'm sorry? 13 A: I -- I was on the beach. 14 Q: You were on the beach -- 15 A: But I'm not sure exactly how far I 16 was. 17 Q: Well then maybe you can help us in 18 time. How many minutes did you walk along? 19 A: I can't recall. 20 Q: All right, so you don't know how far 21 and you don't know how long you walked along before you 22 heard noise? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Right. 25 A: I don't recall.

1 Q: Okay. 2 A: This all happened really, like, fast. 3 Q: Okay, and so -- and then you say you 4 heard noises, yelling, and -- and you said, Like yelling 5 and I don't know. 6 Did you hear sounds like clashing of -- of 7 metal pipes or sticks against police shields? Did you 8 hear that kind of sound? 9 A: I don't know how it sounds when you 10 hit a police shield, so I can't say it was that sound 11 that I heard. 12 Q: Well, did you hear -- I gather what 13 you're saying is that you heard sounds that you weren't 14 familiar with. They were sounds that weren't sounds that 15 are part of your -- 16 A: Part of nature, no, they weren't. 17 Q: Part of nature or part of your usual 18 world -- 19 A: Yeah, they were -- 20 Q: -- because they were unusual sounds 21 were they? 22 A: Yes. Yeah, that's correct. 23 Q: All right. Then you say shortly 24 thereafter you heard some shots, first a few and then 25 many. And Mr. Worme asked you:

1 "Could you tell us, Mr. George, whether 2 the one hundred (100) or two hundred 3 (200) shots ..." 4 Those are the many that you said you heard 5 -- that you heard: 6 "...might have been from an automatic 7 weapon?" 8 Q: Do you know what an automatic 9 weapon is? 10 A: You hold the trigger down and it 11 fires repeatedly. 12 Q: And is that something you might 13 have heard? 14 A: Yeah." 15 Let me ask you, first of all, before 16 September the 6th, had you personally heard the sound of 17 automatic weapons? 18 A: Yes, I have. 19 Q: And in what circumstances had you 20 heard the sound of automatic weapons? When was that? 21 A: A few years ago. 22 Q: A few years prior to -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- '95? And where were you? 25 A: In Kettle Point.

1 Q: And who was firing automatic weapons? 2 A: My cousin. 3 Q: Who's that? 4 A: Gerald George. 5 Q: All right. And where was he firing? 6 A: I don't know, he just purchased a new 7 gun and he was just shooting it off towards a, like a 8 river, like a can or something. 9 Q: I see. Is that -- any other 10 occasions that you heard the sound of automatic weapons? 11 A: I don't know, I can't recall. I just 12 know at that particular time that I can say I remember. 13 Q: And what -- what was the gun that 14 Gerald George had, he was using as an automatic weapon? 15 A: I can't recall the name of it. 16 Q: Now, had you kept walking between the 17 time you heard the yelling and the unusual sounds and the 18 time that you heard the gunshots, had you continued to 19 walk along the beach in a westerly direction? 20 A: After I heard the gunfire? 21 Q: No. After you heard the yelling and 22 before you heard the gunfire, did you continue to walk 23 along the beach in a westerly direction? 24 A: I can't recall what I -- what I done. 25 Q: All right. And then when you heard

1 the gunshots, did you continue to walk or was it that -- 2 is that stage that you say you ran up about a quarter of 3 a kilometre? 4 A: No. I didn't say I'd ran -- 5 Q: Up into a sand hill? 6 A: No, I don't -- I can't remember if I 7 said that I ran a quarter kilometre -- 8 Q: Let me just give you -- 9 A: -- up to a hill, no. 10 Q: This is your evidence yesterday. 11 "Q: After you heard those shots, Mr. 12 George, what did you -- what did you 13 do? 14 A: After I heard those shots I became 15 really scared, terrified, because I was 16 by myself for one and my brothers -- my 17 brothers were in the area where the 18 shots were being fired. So after I 19 heard the shots, the only thing I could 20 do is try and find cover. So I ran in 21 the direction that I was previously 22 dropped off at, towards I believe it's 23 Ravenswood Road. I didn't -- I ran 24 maybe a quarter of a kilometre. Maybe 25 not even that up into a sand -- a sand

1 hill and I lay on top of it -- that 2 hill there." 3 So you told us yesterday when asked what 4 you did, you said you ran in a westerly direction. Maybe 5 a quarter of a kilometre, maybe not that much up into a 6 sand hill. This is what you told us yesterday; do you 7 want to change that? 8 A: Yeah, that's about what I -- I don't 9 know if it was quite a quarter of a kilometre though, 10 that I ran to seek cover. 11 Q: So it was a quarter kilometre or 12 less, but you ran some distance? 13 A: I was about the distance from -- like 14 about a quarter kilometre from the beginning of the beach 15 of the Provincial Park, towards Kettle Point. 16 Q: And then Mr. Worme asked you: 17 "And as you're laying on this sand 18 hill" 19 And he suggests this answer to you: 20 "I take it this is just off the beach?" 21 You say: 22 "Yes." 23 And then you tell us that -- a little 24 further on -- that you heard voices on East Parkway, 25 persons on East Parkway?

1 A: I thought I said they were in between 2 there from the beach and East Parkway. 3 Q: Okay, well, let me just -- maybe I 4 have it wrong from your evidence and let's get it 5 straight. You were asked the question: 6 "Did you -- did you hear any further 7 sounds coming from the area that you 8 described as the -- as a lot of noise 9 and then the shooting?" 10 A: Well, in between from where I was 11 at -- was at and the road, East Parkway 12 or whatever that road is, I heard -- I 13 heard some cops." 14 So I take it you're saying they were 15 between the road -- you and East Parkway Road, were they? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: They weren't on the road? 18 A: They weren't on the road. 19 Q: All right. And how far were you from 20 the road or did you know? 21 A: I was at the -- pretty much the 22 beginning of the beach on the top of a hill. 23 Q: All right. And so somewhere south of 24 you, which was East Parkway, the police officers were 25 between you and East Parkway?

1 A: That's correct. 2 Q: And you say you didn't see them, that 3 they were police officers, you simply heard them speaking 4 and you assumed they were police officers? 5 A: Well, what they -- the wording that 6 they used I knew they weren't -- I knew that they were 7 police. 8 Q: And what wording was that? 9 A: They said, Well, we should go along 10 the beach to see if there's anyone down there. 11 Q: I see. 12 A: I think one (1) particular officer 13 said that. 14 Q: One (1) of the persons said that? 15 A: Yeah, one (1) of the -- one (1) of 16 the people -- 17 Q: And you assumed because they said, We 18 should go down to the beach and see if there's anyone 19 there, you assumed they were police officers? 20 A: I assumed because they said, We 21 should check if there's anyone along there. 22 Q: Right. Anything else that they said 23 that led you to assume they were police officers? 24 A: I can't really recall exactly what 25 they said.

1 Q: All right. Nothing you can recall 2 that they said that led you to assume they were police 3 officers? 4 A: Well, I know they said something that 5 made me believe that they were police officers, but I 6 can't recall exactly what they said. 7 Q: All right. Then -- and you then told 8 Mr. Worme that you were there for about half an hour, 9 maybe longer -- 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: -- lying on the sand dune. 12 A: It might have been shorter. 13 Q: I see. So, it was half an hour you 14 told Mr. Worme, maybe longer. Now you're telling me 15 maybe shorter? 16 A: It could have been shorter. 17 Q: Okay. So, is half an hour your best 18 estimate? 19 A: I'm not exact -- I'm not, like 100 20 percent sure on how long I was there. It was so long 21 that I've been trying to -- for the longest time, get all 22 of this stuff out of my head and try and move on from it, 23 so I can't remember details. 24 Q: All right. And then you -- and you 25 say you wanted to get to a safe place, you didn't feel

1 safe because you were by yourself and you said to Mr. 2 Worme: 3 "I didn't -- I didn't feel safe because 4 I was by myself. I didn't have any 5 weapons on me. I didn't have nothing." 6 I'm not sure what you were trying to tell 7 us there, Mr. George. Were you trying to tell us that 8 you would have felt safe if you had weapons? 9 A: If I had something. I just heard the 10 whole of gunfire go off and wouldn't you want to protect 11 yourself in some sort? 12 Q: Okay. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Mr. George, you then told us that you 17 went along the beach and you met with Roseanne Bressette 18 and Deanna Bressette and they were there along the beach 19 and I gather they were -- there was also Tom Bressette 20 and Gerald George, right? You came upon the four (4) of 21 them? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: And at that stage I gather Roseanne 24 Bressette had your brother's, Cecil Bernard's, blue pick- 25 up truck?

1 A: Yes, she had the blue pick-up truck, 2 yeah. 3 Q: And you tell us that there was a 4 scanner in the truck? 5 A: Yeah, he's -- 6 Q: And is -- 7 A: -- always had a scanner in his truck. 8 Q: And is that -- was that a scanner 9 that was fixed in the truck, that was a permanent feature 10 of the truck? 11 A: It's always been in his truck, yeah. 12 Q: I see. But is it -- my question was: 13 Was it fixed or was it portable? 14 A: I don't know the difference so. 15 Q: Could you take it out of the truck? 16 A: You mean like a handset one? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: No, it wasn't one of those, it was -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- a square box kind. 21 Q: And did you know that -- that then, I 22 gather Cecil Bernard George had more than one (1) 23 scanner, if he had one fixed in his truck. We've also 24 heard that he had a scanner, a portable one that he had 25 taken to the Park.

1 Did you -- were you aware that he appears 2 to have had more than one (1) scanner? 3 A: He's always had a lot of -- well, not 4 -- I don't know -- I don't know how many he has exactly, 5 but I -- I know he didn't just go purchase them that day, 6 he's always had walkie-talkies and -- 7 Q: And more than one (1) scanner? 8 A: I don't know. But I know he's always 9 had that kind of equipment. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: I'm not sure exactly on everything 12 that he has. 13 Q: Now, you told Mr. Worme yesterday 14 that, I gather you didn't hear it over the scanner, but 15 that you -- you understood that Roseanne and Deanna 16 heard, over the scanner in Cecil Bernard's truck, that 17 three (3) people were shot and several wounded; that's 18 what they told you? 19 A: I don't really -- I don't really 20 remember what -- that's -- that's what I believe I heard 21 at some point. 22 Q: So you're not sure where you heard 23 that? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay, because we have an SIU Will Say

1 from Deanna Bressette, about that -- about the occasion 2 that you met them at the -- at the beach as you've 3 described it, and there's nothing in her Will Say that 4 speaks to having heard over a scanner that three (3) 5 people were shot and several wounded. 6 A: Well, I don't really remember exactly 7 when I heard it. 8 Q: But you may -- 9 A: I just remember -- 10 Q: You may have heard it on a complete 11 different occasion? 12 A: I could have, yes. Yeah. 13 Q: And, as I understand your evidence, 14 you got in the back of the blue truck and Roseanne and 15 Deanna got into the -- Deanna got into the driver's and 16 passenger seat and you proceeded, I think it was, up 17 Ipperwash Road, away from the beach. 18 A: Yeah, that's correct. 19 Q: Now, let me just tell you that, in 20 the Will Say or the -- certainly not the Will Say, the 21 SIU statement given by Deanna Bressette, that will no 22 doubt be referred to later, when she comes to testify, 23 that she says that you proceeded up Ravenswood Road, 24 where there was a barricade, We circled around Thedford 25 Highway. Do you remember doing that?

1 A: To my recollection, no I don't recall 2 doing that. 3 Q: And then she says: 4 "We went up to Highway 21 and the 5 police had a roadblock, so we went 6 straight towards Thedford, we circled 7 around and we came down Army Camp Road 8 to get down here to get to the main 9 gate". 10 Now, she says that you and -- you and she 11 and Roseanne, went in the truck to the main gate of the 12 Army Camp. And she says: 13 "Terry George was at the gate and Gina 14 George and they told us the police took 15 Bernard to Forest." 16 Does that refresh your memory that you 17 went first to the Army Camp gate? 18 A: That's her statement, I don't -- I 19 don't recall. 20 Q: You don't recall that? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Well, you were in the truck. Is it - 23 - are you saying that it didn't happen or that you just 24 may not recall? 25 A: I'm just saying to my recollection

1 that, like I'd -- I'd said previous, I was trying to -- 2 Q: I'm sorry? 3 A: I said, to my recollection previously 4 I stated that I don't remember exactly all -- all things 5 that happened that -- that day, that -- at that time, 6 because I've been trying to forget all of this. 7 Q: So that could have happened, you just 8 don't recall? Is that what you're telling us? 9 A: It could have happened, I just don't 10 recall. 11 Q: And she goes on to say that -- that 12 "they didn't tell us", this is referring to Gina George 13 and Terry George, 14 "They didn't tell us that Bernard was 15 hurt or that he was beaten. They -- 16 well, they warned us not to go down to 17 the Park because we were going to the 18 Park, you know, for Bernard. They told 19 us not to go down there. So this is 20 when we went to the police station out 21 in Forest and we had Jeremiah with us, 22 he came along with us." 23 Now do you remember, then, going along 24 Highway 21 to the Forest Police station? 25 A: I read her statement before I came

1 here and if I remembered -- remembered that, I would have 2 said that when I was here. I don't recall that. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: Why -- why would I read something and 5 then don't remember it and come to Court and lie? I 6 don't recall. 7 Q: And that -- and having read it -- the 8 statement, it didn't refresh your memory at all? 9 A: No, I don't remember. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I swore on the Bible saying I'd tell 12 the whole truth and nothing but the truth and that's what 13 I can recall, so that's what I'm going to state. 14 Q: All right, and I gather it makes 15 sense, does it, when you think back though, Mr. George, 16 to go to the police station if you don't know that Cecil 17 Bernard has been shot or hurt, because if you'd -- if 18 he'd been seriously injured or -- or shot, it's likely he 19 wouldn't be at the police station, he'd be at a hospital; 20 isn't that right? 21 A: To find out what's going on, you 22 usually want somebody that would know and you go where 23 you can get some sort of answers. 24 Q: All right. 25 A: Why would we drive all the way to a

1 hospital when he could be in jail? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: Now you told us that you were hiding 6 in the back of the truck at some stage. You think it was 7 when you were going through a barricade. 8 A: I know it was when I was going 9 through a barricade when I was laying on my side. 10 Q: I see. 11 A: I know exactly where I was. 12 Q: And were you also hiding in the back 13 of the truck when you got to the -- or when you 14 approached the Forest OPP station? 15 A: If I was hiding in the back at that 16 time, I wouldn't have seen the vans circle around. No, I 17 wasn't hiding, I was sitting up. 18 Q: Having seen the van, did you then 19 hide? 20 A: No, I didn't. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Before we get further on that, are 25 you sure that you went through a police barricade,

1 because Deanna Bressette gave a statement to the SIU much 2 closer to the events than today, and she has -- she makes 3 no reference to going through a police barricade in the 4 truck in which you were in. 5 So are you sure of that or could you be 6 mistaken on that as well? 7 A: What, that I went through a 8 barricade? The statement I made, that's what I'm saying. 9 I went through a barricade. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: That's her statement, this is what I 12 remembered. 13 Q: Now, we understand that there may be 14 police evidence, certainly that's -- we've been produced 15 a document to this effect that you were observed at the 16 police station in the truck jumping up from hiding in the 17 box of the vehicle by a police officer; this was 18 Constable Finch. 19 And he says he was not aware that you'd 20 been hiding in the back of the box of the truck and he 21 found your actions startling, not only for himself but 22 for the other officers present, now -- 23 A: Oh, if that justicates what they did 24 then that's his statement, but I wasn't hiding in the 25 back of no pick up truck. If I was hiding and they had

1 their guns drawn, they would have shot me. 2 Q: Well, what he says was -- 3 A: I wasn't going to be popping out and 4 jumping -- jumping out at anybody that was, like, already 5 trigger finger happy, so why would I do that? 6 Q: Well, what the statement says is that 7 you were initially at the police station hiding and then 8 you jumped up. 9 A: Well, that's his statement, I guess; 10 that's not what I -- that's not what I stated. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: I wasn't hiding. 13 Q: Were you lying down in the back of 14 it? 15 A: No, I wasn't -- I wasn't hiding. 16 Q: All right. And we have a -- from 17 Constable Fitzgerald, who was there as well, that when 18 the truck approached the detachment from Highway 21 that 19 it stopped abruptly on the grass shoulder of the roadway 20 adjacent to the Forest Detachment. 21 Do you recall that the -- the blue truck 22 you were in stopped abruptly, not in the parking lot, but 23 on the grass shoulder? 24 A: So what you're indicating is that she 25 was driving kind of erratically?

1 Q: Well, I didn't -- didn't say, 2 erratically I said it stopped abruptly -- 3 A: Stopped -- 4 Q: on the grass shoulder. 5 A: I -- she wouldn't be driving, like, 6 or stopping kind of unusually with me sitting in the back 7 not having any sort of seatbelt on or anything. 8 Q: And did it -- 9 A: And I -- 10 Q: Did it stop on the grass shoulder? 11 A: I don't remember exactly where it 12 stopped. 13 Q: Okay. Now, we were also told by the 14 same statement of Constable Fitzgerald that the whole 15 incident from the time that the truck first arrived at 16 the station until the time you were released took a total 17 of fifteen (15) minutes; is that a fair estimate? 18 A: I think we were there longer than 19 that. 20 Q: And how long do you say you were 21 there? 22 A: Under a half hour. 23 Q: All right. So between fifteen (15) 24 minutes and a half hour? Okay. Sorry, you have to -- 25 you have to say for the record, yes or no. I think if

1 you could just say "yes." 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Now, you told us, as well, that you 4 went back the next day, September the 7th to the 5 barracks, marched back and then you went -- hitched a 6 ride in a truck down to the Park. 7 And you looked around the area of the 8 sandy parking lot where it meets the intersection of Army 9 Camp Road and East Parkway for shell casings? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: And you were there with your brother 12 and with a number of other people looking for shell 13 casings and none of you appeared to have found anything? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: What time of day was this? 16 A: I don't recall. 17 Q: Well, was it -- was it before or 18 after lunch, do you recall? 19 A: I -- before lunch I think. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: Could have been one o'clock. I don't 22 remember eating so I can couldn't give you a time. 23 Q: And there were a lot of people 24 around? 25 A: The only thing that I remember is

1 just viewing the videos and I don't -- it's all kind of a 2 -- still a haze. I'd rather forget it, I don't know. 3 Q: So you -- sorry, which videos are you 4 talking about? 5 A: Pardon? 6 Q: You say, viewing the videos, what 7 videos? 8 A: The -- the media clips. 9 Q: And you viewed those video clips 10 before you came to testify here today? 11 A: I -- I just remember seeing them. 12 Q: When did you see them? 13 A: I don't recall, really. 14 Q: Well, did you see -- have you seen 15 them in the last few weeks or months or are you talking 16 about back in 1995 or when -- what are you talking about? 17 A: The last few months, I guess. 18 Q: Okay. And so you -- you were shown 19 the video clips to what; to assist you to refresh your 20 memory? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: All right. And did they help you 23 refresh your memory? 24 A: Not really, no. 25 Q: Okay. And do you recall when you

1 were down there at the intersection of East Parkway Drive 2 and Army Camp Road on September the 7th, seeing sticks 3 and stones and other kind of articles around the sandy 4 parking area and the intersection of the two (2) roads? 5 A: I don't remember any of that. 6 Q: You don't -- so if -- and would -- is 7 that something you would have remembered if you'd seen 8 it? 9 A: I don't -- I don't remember. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: That's -- I wasn't there looking for 12 sticks and sticks and stones, wasn't making a fire. 13 Q: Well, let's -- let me ask you about 14 that, because we've heard evidence about a fire on the 15 roadway just slightly west of the intersection of East 16 Parkway Drive on the north side, which was built at about 17 that time, to mark the place where it was thought Dudley 18 George had been shot. 19 Do you remember that fire? 20 A: No, I don't, because I -- as I just 21 stated, I don't -- I wasn't making a fire. I wasn't 22 looking for sticks and stones. I stated I was looking 23 for shells, casings. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 Q: Thank you, Mr. George, those are my 2 questions. 3 A: Have a good day. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 5 very much. Mr. Hourigan...? 6 MR. DONALD WORME: I'm wondering if 7 perhaps it might be a good opportunity -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I'm 9 not sure if -- 10 MR. DONALD WORME: -- for the morning 11 break? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is Mr. 13 Hourigan the last cross-examiner? Then let's see if we 14 can -- 15 MR. WILLIAM HOURIGAN: I will be five (5) 16 minutes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Five (5) 18 minutes. Let's do it. 19 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAM HOURIGAN: 21 Q: Mr. George, I represent Mike Harris 22 and I had a couple of points from your testimony 23 yesterday that I wanted to review with you and get some 24 clarification. 25 On two (2) occasions, you made reference

1 to conflict within the native community; do you recall 2 that? 3 A: Yeah, there was conflict. 4 Q: And in particular, you testified the 5 conflict was of such a nature that it prevented the 6 chief, Chief Bressette, from going to the Park on 7 September 6th; correct? 8 A: I -- I think he could -- he wished he 9 could have -- 10 Q: He wished he could have? 11 A: Yeah, and involved -- 12 Q: But he couldn't? 13 A: -- himself in some sort of -- some 14 sort of manner that it didn't escalate to the point that 15 it did. 16 Q: Right, and what I'm trying to get 17 clarification on, Mr. George, is the nature of the 18 conflict, who it's between, for example? 19 A: The nature of the conflict? I'm not 20 like -- like who? 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: I can't point fingers. I don't know 23 who was -- 24 Q: Did you understand -- 25 A: I just know that there was a conflict

1 between Kettle Point and Stony Point. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: And there always has. 4 Q: And what did you understand the 5 nature of that conflict to be? 6 A: I'm not sure. 7 Q: Well, did you understand that it 8 related to the taking back or the occupation of the 9 barracks at the Army Camp; was that a source of conflict? 10 A: Yeah, it was a conflict. I believe 11 it was. 12 Q: And did it also similarly relate to 13 the taking of the Ipperwash Provincial Park -- 14 A: Yeah -- 15 Q: -- was that a source of conflict? 16 A: -- that was, as well. 17 Q: And you understood, sir, that Chief 18 Bressette did not support the occupation of the barracks; 19 correct? 20 A: I'm not exactly sure on his -- on his 21 standings of it. 22 Q: I see. 23 A: I'm sure he felt that if he wasn't a 24 chief and, or, you know, councillor and his -- his 25 standings in this certain circumstances, I'm sure he

1 would have supported in some -- some manner. 2 Q: But you don't know? 3 A: I'm not -- no, I'm not particularly 4 sure. I can't make a statement. I don't know his 5 political views on exactly how he stands. I can't make 6 any sort of statement like that. 7 Q: I see. Do you -- and was it your 8 understanding that Chief Bressette supported the 9 occupation of the Park? 10 A: I don't know. 11 Q: You don't know? But he certainly 12 wasn't entitled to go to the Park, was he? 13 A: Oh, he -- he's in -- in his 14 standings, he wasn't -- he -- he couldn't, basically. 15 Q: Why couldn't he? 16 A: I guess he could have, but if he went 17 there he would have been support just, like, supporting 18 them, saying that it was -- that they were allowed -- I 19 guess, allowed to be there. 20 Q: Right, and he didn't want to do that? 21 A: I don't think he could, being a 22 chief, unless he's, like, I don't know. 23 Q: So I take from that, sir, you correct 24 me if I'm wrong, that he didn't support the occupation of 25 the Camp? He couldn't be seen to be there and seen to be

1 supportive; is that true? 2 A: That he couldn't be supportive? 3 Q: Right. 4 A: Being a chief, yeah, like -- 5 Q: So, I take from that, that he didn't 6 support the occupation of the Park; is that fair? 7 A: It's -- I don't know if I can say 8 that that's fair. I don't -- I don't know if that's a 9 fair statement. 10 Q: Yesterday you also testified with 11 respect to the time period when you came back to the 12 turnstile to warn people about the -- the native 13 occupiers there with respect to the police presence. 14 Do you recall that? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And you'll recall as well that you 17 indicated that there was, quote: 18 "A lot of new faces." 19 Do you recall giving that testimony? 20 A: I don't know if I -- if there was at 21 that time or if it was later on that day. 22 Q: Well, let's -- 23 A: I seen a lot of new faces that, like, 24 well, the following day, so -- 25 Q: I'm just going to take you back to

1 your testimony. The question Mr. Worme asked you was -- 2 it's at the bottom of page 134: 3 "And so you run back to the front area. 4 I take it that's the turnstile area you 5 told us about earlier? 6 Yes. 7 And do you recall who it was that you 8 would have spoken to in order to give 9 the information the Cecil or Bernard 10 asked you relay?" 11 Your answer was: 12 "I -- I don't recall that it was -- 13 that I -- I met with down there because 14 there was a lot of new, like, new faces 15 that I hadn't seen or that I -- I don't 16 even know." 17 Do you recall giving that testimony? 18 A: Yeah, there was people from Stoney 19 Point that I didn't know, so -- 20 Q: All right. 21 A: -- that were there at that particular 22 time, so, yeah, there was new faces down there, but they 23 didn't just come down there that -- that particular time, 24 like occupy the Camp. They were -- I mean the Park -- 25 they were at the Camp previous to that, like a lot of new

1 faces that I had -- I never seen. They didn't just come 2 there that day so, yeah, there was -- 3 Q: And when was the first -- 4 A: -- new faces there. 5 Q: Sorry, when was the first time you 6 visited the Camp after it had been occupied? 7 A: The barracks? 8 Q: No, the Camp. Or, sorry, I 9 apologize, the Park? 10 A: When was the first time? 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: I think it was that day. 13 Q: That day? And the individuals you 14 saw, I take it they were native supporters? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And they weren't from Stoney Point? 17 A: Well, they were from -- there was 18 Stoney Point and -- Stoney Point people there, Kettle 19 Point people and there was people from other reserves. 20 Q: I see, and did you recognize those 21 people who were from Kettle Point? 22 A: A few, I remember a few that, like, 23 that I know have always been down there. 24 Q: Right and do you recognize those 25 people --

1 A: But particularly that day when that - 2 - that instant, I don't -- I don't remember who they 3 were. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: It's not that I don't -- maybe I 6 don't know, or I know them, but I just can't remember. 7 Q: I see. I see. Now, did you 8 recognize those individuals who were there from Stoney 9 Point? 10 A: I don't remember who, like, who I saw 11 that -- that particular time. 12 Q: All right. And did you recognize any 13 of the other individuals who were there who were not from 14 either Stoney Point or Kettle Point? 15 A: Those are the people I didn't know, 16 yeah. 17 Q: Those were the people you didn't 18 know? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: All right. And how many of those 21 people were there? 22 A: I don't -- I don't remember. I don't 23 remember how many people were down there that day. 24 Q: Well, you've testified about twenty- 25 five (25).

1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And then you've also testified that a 3 lot of people were there and what I take from your 4 evidence a lot of people were there who were not from 5 Stoney or Kettle Point and I'm trying to get an idea of 6 the numbers -- these were the new faces you saw. 7 Can you tell me? 8 A: No, I can't. 9 Q: Do you have an estimate? 10 A: There was Kettle Point, Stoney Point 11 and a few other people. I don't know. I can't give you 12 any numbers. I don't know, it was dark that night. I 13 don't know who was down there that day. 14 Q: You've certainly -- you've certainly 15 been able to recognize that there were new faces there? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: All right. And you can't tell me 18 today then, sir, is that your evidence, how many new 19 faces you saw, is that fair? 20 A: That's fair. 21 Q: Okay. Those are my questions. 22 Thanks. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 24 very much. Mr. Worme, any re-examination? 25 MR. DONALD WORME: Just very briefly, Mr.

1 Commissioner. 2 3 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DONALD WORME: 4 Q: In re-examination, just two (2) 5 items, Mr. George, if I may. You were asked -- you were 6 asked by the -- the lawyer for the Ontario Provincial 7 Police Association as -- as to whether you were aware, 8 that in August of '95, whether your brother Cecil had 9 went to the Camp in order to warn Les Jewel that -- that 10 he ought to vacate, together with his warriors. 11 First of all, do you know who Les Jewel 12 is? 13 A: No, I don't. 14 Q: All right. And were you aware or 15 ever made aware that there were anybody connected to, I'm 16 assuming it was the Stoney Point or the Camp Ipperwash 17 Base, that would have been associated with warriors? 18 A: I don't know. 19 Q: Secondly, then, I just want to give 20 you an opportunity, Mr. George. Mr. Hourigan, who had 21 just finished asking you questions, had asked you to 22 comment on your views with respect to Tom Bressette. 23 And I seem to gather from your answer that 24 you were drawing a distinction as between Tom Bressette, 25 civilian, and Tom Bressette as a chief.

1 Did I understand you correctly? 2 A: Yes. That's correct. 3 Q: And is it your evidence that Tom 4 Bressette, as a civilian, and I don't want to put words 5 in your mouth, but did you say, probably would have 6 supported? 7 A: Yes, that's correct. 8 Q: And is it also your evidence, then, 9 that he was inhibited, at least in your view, and 10 certainly we will be asking him these questions, 11 inhibited by his position as chief from openly supporting 12 the occupation of the Park; is that what I understand you 13 to say, sir? 14 A: Being native and having some sort of 15 a -- I'm sure, some sort of family that lived in Stoney 16 Point and at a certain time he probably felt that it was 17 time to finally get the land back, yeah. 18 You know as a -- being a descendant in 19 some manner, yeah, he, you know, he was probably glad 20 something was finally happening. 21 And for the reserve itself, you know, 22 there's no room for growth, you know, nobody can't build 23 a house down there. I got land there, I can't build a 24 house there. There's, you know, just -- yeah, I believe 25 that he would, in some way, wish he, like -- like, could

1 have been there that night, helped out in some -- some 2 kind of way. 3 Q: All right. Thank you. Thank you for 4 that, Mr. George. 5 And on behalf of the Commission, I want to 6 thank you for attending here. I know you had been ill 7 and I know you had some trouble getting here and getting 8 off of work, so we're very much appreciative of your 9 being here. 10 A: Well, thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 12 very much for coming and giving us your evidence. Thank 13 you very kindly. You're finished now. 14 THE WITNESS: Okay. 15 16 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 17 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 19 would be a good time for us to take a break. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 21 for fifteen (15) minutes. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 10:32 a.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 10:55 a.m. 25

1 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 MR. DONALD WORME: Mr. Commissioner, the 4 next witness called is Charles George. I can advise that 5 Mr. George, with the assistance of Mr. George, was just 6 in the back, and they have smudged themselves, and he 7 would, at this point in time, then, be affirmed. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. George. 10 MR. CHARLES GEORGE: Yes. 11 THE REGISTRAR: Please state your name in 12 full for the record. 13 MR. CHARLES GEORGE: Charles Francis 14 George. 15 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 16 17 CHARLES FRANCIS GEORGE, Affirmed: 18 19 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 20 Q: Mr. George, you're born April the 4th 21 of 1969? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And that would make you how old 24 today? 25 A: Thirty-five (35).

1 Q: Thirty-five (35) years? 2 A: Yes, sir. 3 Q: Your parents are Sandra George and 4 Randall George; correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And they are not a George family that 7 is otherwise connected to the Kettle or Stoney Point? 8 A: No, sir. 9 Q: All right. And I understand that 10 your parents currently are resident in Oneida in New 11 York? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You are -- you are married in the 14 sense that you have a common-law spouse? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And four (4) children? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: You sometimes go by the name, Chuck, 19 or do you prefer the -- 20 A: Chuck, yeah. 21 Q: -- you prefer the nickname Chuck? 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: All right. Or the name, rather. And 24 you are currently a resident of the Oneida settlement and 25 you have been since 1974, Mr. George?

1 A: Yes, around there, yeah. 2 Q: Okay, give or take -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: All right. And when I say the 5 "Oneida Settlement," I mean the one that is located near 6 the out -- near the outskirts of London, Ontario, as 7 opposed to the New York -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- Oneida. 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Yeah. Your parents -- parents as 12 well were from Oneida in Ontario and it is the same 13 community where you presently reside? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: You've also advised, Mr. George, that 16 you had been involved in a fairly serious car accident in 17 approximately 1997/98. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And I understand that in -- as a 20 consequence of that accident, you had sustained a fairly 21 serious head injury? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And I note that you do have, and I 24 don't mean to embarrass you, but I note that you do have 25 some scarring as a result of that accident.

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And can you tell us, sir, what 3 effect, if any, that that has had on your either short 4 term or long term memory? 5 A: I can't remember, like, short term. 6 But longer -- farther away I can remember better. 7 Q: And so the events that you were here 8 to tell us about in 1995 and there before, those things 9 you can tell us about, but you may have some difficulty 10 with respect to things that might have happened three (3) 11 months ago; is that fair? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right. Mr. George, I had given 14 you an opportunity to review certain documents. You have 15 that document in front of you and, Mr. Commissioner, it 16 is at Tab -- the first document that I would refer him to 17 is at Tab 3 in the binder. 18 For the benefit of Counsel, it is Inquiry 19 Document 1005292 which is a transcript of the R. and 20 Deane trial. 21 That particular evidence that I will refer 22 you to, Mr. George, is your evidence dating from April 23 the 3rd of 1997 and in particular, I would refer you to 24 Pages 125 and 126. You were asked a series of questions 25 at that time by the lawyer who was examining you with

1 respect to your criminal record. 2 And if I may, sir, I'd like to just 3 briefly take you through that and ask you if you can 4 confirm, Number 1, that that is your testimony and, 5 secondly, that that is your record as it stood then and 6 as it stands now. 7 So, firstly, in 1989, sir, you had a 8 conviction for theft under a thousand dollars ($1,000) 9 which you received a fourteen (14) day jail sentence; 10 correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you were similarly convicted for 13 possession of a narcotic, and I understand that you were 14 sentenced to an additional five (5) days in jail for 15 that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Further, you were convicted for theft 18 over a thousand dollars ($1,000) and possession of stolen 19 property under a thousand dollars ($1,000) for which