1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 7th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  Jodie-Lynn Waddilove ) (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein ) (np)       The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       ) (np)       George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    ) (np)       Student-at-Law  
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )   (np)       Aazhoodena (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )   (np)       Kettle Point & Stoney
 20  Jonathon George  )   (np)       Point First Nation
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Sue Freeborn     )   (np)
 25  Michelle Pong    )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )   (np)       The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )              Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 11  
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  
 15  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 16  Trevor Hinnegan     ) 
 17  
 18  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 19  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 20  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 21  
 22  Ian Roland       )              Ontario Provincial 
 23  Karen Jones      )   (np)       Police Association &
 24  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 25  Ian McGilp       )

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  Clem Nabigon     )
  7  
  8  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
  9  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 10  
 11  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 12  Matthew Horner   )
 13  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 14  
 15  Mark Frederick   )              Christopher Hodgson
 16  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 17  
 18  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 19  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 20  Melissa Panjer   )
 21  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 22  
 23  
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 CAROLYN GEORGE, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 9 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 18 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian McGilp 23 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 49 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 59 11 12 HENDRIKUS WILHELMUS VEENS, Sworn 13 Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 65 14 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 86 15 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrew Orkin 88 16 Re-Direct Examination by Ms. Susan Vella 92 17 18 JEREMIAH JAMES GEORGE, Sworn 19 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 20 21 Certificate of Transcript 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-156 8"x11" "Stan" Thompson Drawing, 63 4 September 20/95, Marked by Witness 5 Ms. Carolyn George, Feb 07/05 6 P-157 Audio Disk of Document 5000215, 76 7 9-1-1 Call from Hank Veens Sept 8 6/7/1995 9 P-158 Document 5000215 Transcript of 9-1-1 77 10 Call from Hank Veeks Pages 11 2662-2673, Sept 6/7, 1995, 12 Pages 12 P-159 Document 1002953, 9-1-1 Call from 83 13 Hank Veens September 06/95 14 23:26:49 P.m. Received by 15 Forest/Bosanquet 16 P-160 Document 1002002 Emergency Call 84 17 Narratives Between Hank Veens 18 and Ambulance Dispatch September 06/95 19 Notified 23:31:03 Hrs 20 Cancelled 23:55:59 Hours. 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 10:31 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. Before we begin Mr. Ross wanted to say a 8 few comments. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 10 morning, Mr. Ross. 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Good morning, 12 Commissioner. This, sir, relates to the evidence -- a 13 portion of the evidence that was given by Glenn George. 14 At one (1) stage I was speaking with him about the 15 occupation on the range and my effort was to address 16 whether or not it did constitute a trespass. 17 And I made reference to -- I might have 18 said an agreement, it should have been correspondence 19 from the Minister of Indian Affairs to Chief Tom 20 Bressette which was forwarded by Chief Tom Bressette to 21 Carl George. 22 And you'll recall that Carl George from 23 time to time carried the designation chief of Stoney 24 Point. And it is a letter from the Minister dated August 25 19, 1993 which referred to and, I will just read the one

1 (1) sent -- two (2) sentences. 2 "I have instructed my official to 3 discuss this with your directly. The 4 proposed site would be a two hundred 5 (200) metre by two hundred (200) metre 6 parcel in the extreme southeast corner 7 of Camp Ipperwash." 8 And I just wanted to confirm that there 9 was a communication so in the event that there was a 10 trespass, it would raise the questions whether or not the 11 trespass had been ameliorated. 12 Now, I do not think that is going to be 13 necessary to recall Glenn George for the purpose of these 14 documents. They can go in through Carl George or through 15 Chief Bressette. And I was not sure -- I -- I was under 16 the impression that I may have handing them off to 17 Counsel -- Commission Counsel, I notice the original was 18 still in my file and decided to draw it to you attention. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 20 very much, Mr. Ross. Mr. Millar, how do we get these 21 documents into the record? 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, we'll deal with 23 it but the -- the point from our perspective is that we 24 did not get these documents from Mr. Ross. And perhaps 25 Mr. Ross will now give us the documents.

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 6 morning, Ms. Vella. Good morning, Ms. George. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 8 morning, Ms. George. 9 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, Ms. 11 George, may I remind you that you are still under oath? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you very much. 14 15 CAROLYN GEORGE, Resumed: 16 17 CONTINUED EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: How much time do you spend at the 19 Army Camp today? 20 A: Today? 21 Q: On average. 22 A: I live there. So most of the time. 23 Q: And how do you feel about the police 24 today? 25 A: I -- I'm still -- I don't trust them.

1 I -- I don't like it when I feel like they're still 2 following me down the road and stuff like that. 3 Q: Do you think that that trust will 4 ever return? 5 A: I -- I really can't say. Because, 6 you know, I -- I thought when things were, you know, 7 like, done in '95 I thought the police would leave me 8 alone. But I felt that they have still been chasing me 9 and harassing me and my family. Even to this year when I 10 was still putting in complaints about them. 11 Q: And when you say "complaints," is 12 this drawing it to the attention of the requisite 13 individuals at the community? 14 A: Well, okay, this is this year. This 15 is 2005 but when the Commission started last year, I 16 complained to my lawyer then. 17 Q: All right. And will you just give -- 18 tell us what types of activities that you feel that 19 you've been subjected to with respect to the police? 20 A: You mean like last year when -- 21 Q: Last -- in the last year or so. 22 A: I thought they were, you know, like 23 stopping my kids unnecessarily. There was three (3) of 24 them stopped within one (1) month. No real particular 25 reason. They never got charged with anything. I got

1 pulled over too. 2 Q: All right. And were -- were you as a 3 result of being pulled over, were you charged at all? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Do you know what the reason for 6 pulling you over was? 7 A: Well, I -- I became angry and I 8 jumped out of the vehicle and I went over and -- and then 9 the police says, I didn't know that was you. I didn't 10 know that was you. 11 Q: Okay, all right. And did anything 12 else come of that then? Or were you allowed to proceed? 13 A: Yeah. They just told me to get back 14 in your vehicle and -- and I left, but I still feel like 15 that was unnecessary, too. 16 Q: All right. How have the events of 17 September the 6th and 7 affected you? 18 A: In particular the police, you mean? 19 Like -- like, I'm afraid that they would shoot me any 20 time, too. I mean, like, there was no reason that, you 21 know, like, that they shot my brother. And what's to 22 stop them from even shooting me? 23 I was very afraid of them going down the 24 road alone. I was -- after a number of years, I did try 25 to start doing things away from the Army Camp. You know,

1 like, just even going visiting. You know, like, driving 2 by myself but I'd always see a lot of cops and it just 3 made me nervous. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: And then even to go over to my 6 daughter's for barbecues and stuff, the police would ride 7 up and down the road and it was like you couldn't go 8 anywhere without them just being right there, and... 9 Q: So it's fair to say that you're -- 10 you're very, very alert to the presence of the police? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And how has the -- how has the loss 13 of your brother affected you and your family? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: Dudley was like the -- a mainstay for 18 us, to like, during my divorce and my dad dying at -- 19 like that occurred the same time and Dudley would be like 20 there for us and someone to go to, someone to talk to, 21 someone for my kids to go to. 22 And any time we were feeling down, he 23 could always make us feel a lot better. I mean, help us 24 see the situation in a different way that we would be 25 laughing instead of feeling bad.

1 Q: Did you and your brother, Pierre, 2 attempt to -- to get answers with respect to the -- what 3 happened to your brother, Dudley? 4 A: Pierre was doing a lot more than me 5 because I was so much more upset by the police and I felt 6 a lot safer staying at Stoney Point. 7 Q: Did you -- were you part of the -- 8 were you one (1) of the persons asking for an Inquiry? 9 A: Pierre was asking on my behalf, also. 10 Q: All right. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: Could I say something to that -- the 15 last time we were here, I was saying how I became too 16 nervous to even stay at my job -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- too afraid to be travelling at 19 night by myself. And it was -- like I had managed to 20 work til April but then I just couldn't handle it anymore 21 and then not too longer after that, the -- the Mennonites 22 came to our community. 23 Well, they had been there before and they 24 knew a lot of the people and they brought a young student 25 to stay with us. And I felt a lot better having him

1 there, because I knew if anything happened in -- anything 2 happened to him that the -- the police would have to look 3 into that. 4 Where, and like -- when it was my brother 5 shot, they -- well, there just really looking at it now. 6 Q: And how did you come to meet the -- 7 the Mennonite community? 8 A: I believe -- I don't know whether I 9 first met them when we lived on the ranges. But I know 10 the other guys knew them and then when they came to -- 11 they came after Dudley was shot and they helped out in 12 our community with a lot of donations. And I was working 13 on a quilt, too, a fundraise too. So a lot of the women 14 came and helped me sew on the quilt. 15 And did raise some money for the community 16 with that and -- but it was the student, John, being 17 there. I felt a lot safer with him there, like, he was 18 right next door to me. And he just helped -- helped a 19 lot to -- and the women, too, to provide me with some 20 acceptance and -- because I was being treated very badly 21 by a lot of people when I did leave Stoney Point. 22 Q: And how is it that they came to come 23 into your community? Were they invited or did they just 24 -- they come and ask if they could help? 25 A: I know they were already -- when the

1 guys want to -- went on the walk to Ottawa, they camped 2 out at Rick's place along the way. 3 Q: So in other words, they were already 4 people whom members of your community trusted? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And -- and so they're -- I take it 7 that their continued support was welcomed in your 8 community? 9 A: Very much. They're still there today 10 for me, too. 11 Q: And in retrospect, do you think that 12 the occupants of the Park would have been inclined to 13 talk with police if there had been a trusted intermediary 14 to facilitate those discussions? 15 A: That probably could have happened. 16 Q: What are your current objectives and 17 hopes for your community at Aazhoodena? 18 A: I'd like to see it up and running 19 like any other reserve in Canada. We should be able to 20 have our own school, library, gas stations, stores there, 21 programs, all that any other reserve has. 22 Q: Do you see yourself ever leaving this 23 present community? 24 A: No. I feel safe there. Well, even 25 after this here, like, I noticed myself -- I would go

1 into my house and I'd lock the door. It was just safety 2 measure. It wouldn't matter if there was somebody still 3 outside behind me. They'd have to knock to get back in. 4 I -- so I know that it was bothering me. 5 Q: What do you think should now happen 6 with the Army Camp Base and the Park? 7 A: You mean the land that it should -- I 8 would like it see returned to the native people that were 9 from there. I feel all the people that had been living 10 there, there was a huge part of their lives taken away. 11 Something that can never, ever be given 12 back and there's going to have to be a lot of rebuilding, 13 a lot of healing. And I feel also, you know, like, 14 Kettle Point was also put out because they didn't really 15 want the people over there, either. 16 So it was -- if we got our own land back, 17 Kettle Point can have their own land back and then 18 everybody could be happy. 19 Q: Do you have any recommendations to 20 share with the Commissioner with respect to how to 21 prevent similar acts of violence in the future? 22 A: I think there needs to be a lot more 23 education of the people, education that starts back in 24 the younger grades. And there should be more what I felt 25 was -- Canada is now a multi-cultural country and a lot

1 of the books don't reflect any of the multi-culturalism. 2 Like, there isn't a lot in there about Natives but 3 there's -- there should be a lot more. 4 And all the new people coming into the 5 country if they're citizens of here there should be 6 something about their cultures and stuff like that. So 7 there would be a greater understanding amongst the 8 different cultures. And if there was more understanding 9 there might -- there wouldn't be so much fear of other 10 people. 11 A lot of it is you fear what you don't 12 understand or know. And I also know that the -- the 13 Mennonites now they have a peace team that are willing to 14 go in between any protests or things like that. I know I 15 certainly welcome them there where they're willing to put 16 their lives there for you so that there wouldn't be 17 anymore violence. 18 And I think the -- the Federal Government 19 should be answering for a lot of this because it was them 20 who created this in the first place by not giving back 21 the land to the right people when they were supposed to. 22 We wouldn't be sitting here now if they would have done 23 what they were supposed to do over fifty (50) years ago. 24 And there's a lot of other land claims out 25 there too that the -- the government is just not dealing

1 with. And -- and that needs to be dealt with. And I 2 think too there should be more things towards Natives; 3 there should be more statues, more programs, museums so 4 that Native people have their rightful place in this 5 country. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you very much. 7 Those are my questions, Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much. Which parties intend to cross-examine Ms. 10 George? Mr. Rosenthal...? 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Five (5) to ten 12 (10) minutes, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 14 McGilp...? 15 MR. IAN MCGILP: About twenty (20) 16 minutes, twenty-five (25) minutes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 18 O'Marra...? 19 MR. AL O'MARRA: Five (5) to ten (10) 20 minutes. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, let's 22 begin. Mr. Rosenthal...? 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 25 Q: Good morning.

1 A: Good morning. 2 Q: I think you know that my name is 3 Peter Rosenthal and I'm representing some of your 4 relatives. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Under the name Aazhoodena and George 7 Family Group. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: I just have a couple of questions to 10 ask you because your testimony has covered most of the 11 important points. You -- you mentioned briefly the other 12 day when you were testifying that you were asked by Tom 13 Bressette at one (1) point why you were there in Stoney 14 Point. And you told him, That's because that's where I'm 15 from. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: What did you feel about the general 18 way that Chief Tom Bressette dealt with the occupation of 19 the Army Camp and then of the Park? 20 A: I didn't have a lot of knowledge of 21 what he was doing with a lot of the things that were 22 going on there. 23 Q: I see, okay. Thank you. Now you 24 testified that you saw Dudley just before the 25 confrontation on the night of September 6th, I believe;

1 is that right? 2 And at that time -- and then you saw him 3 go towards the area where the confrontation was taking 4 place, right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And as you saw him at that -- if you 7 could take your mind back to that moment, did he have 8 anything in his hands at all, Dudley? 9 A: No. 10 Q: And as he ran towards the area where 11 the confrontation took place, did you see him stop to 12 pick up anything? 13 A: No. No. 14 Q: And in particular, there weren't any 15 guns around at that point that you saw, certainly, is 16 that right? 17 A: No, no guns. It was supposed to be a 18 peaceful occupation and we didn't want any guns there. 19 Q: Yes. It was supposed to be a 20 peaceful occupation and as far as the occupiers were 21 concerned it remained that way? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Now, then just skipping ahead to when 24 you and Pierre and Dudley and JT were en route to 25 hospital, you told us how you stopped at a farmhouse to

1 ask for an ambulance to be called. 2 And then you decided that since nothing 3 was happening you would try and make it towards the 4 hospital. 5 As you went towards the hospital at that 6 point, were you hoping that an ambulance would come to 7 meet you so...? 8 A: I figured it would be coming right 9 towards us, that it would be coming out of Strathroy and 10 that we would probably meet it right -- right along that 11 ways there. 12 Q: So -- and that's what you hoped would 13 happen? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And just skipping ahead to something 16 you told us a little bit this morning, you told us when 17 John moved close to you, you felt safer -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you said something to the effect 20 that if anything happened to him, the police would 21 investigate, as opposed to the situation with Dudley. 22 And do you recall your saying that a few 23 minutes ago? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now I wanted to explore why you were

1 meaning that distinction. Is that because you feel that 2 the police didn't give proper respect to Dudley as a 3 First Nations person as opposed to John not being a First 4 Nations person? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: So you're reflecting your thought 7 that a Caucasian person who was mistreated by police 8 would be a much more serious issue to everyone than a 9 First Nations person being mistreated? 10 A: Yes. Also the fact that he had been 11 placed in there by the Mennonite church. 12 Q: And that would have, again, given 13 some comfort? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Thank you very much for your 16 testimony. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much. Mr. McGilp...? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 MR. IAN McGILP: Good morning, 23 Commissioner. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 25 morning.

1 MR. IAN McGILP: Good morning, Mrs. 2 Bressette. Or, Ms. George, I'm sorry. 3 Commissioner, you'll notice that Ms. 4 Newell just will not leave me alone as I'm preparing. 5 She always has one (1) more question for me at the last 6 moment. 7 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN McGILP: 9 Q: Ms. George, my name is Ian McGilp and 10 I'm one of the lawyers who represent the OPP Association. 11 You told us on Thursday, I believe, that 12 you moved onto the rifle ranges in June or July of 1993 13 and that you stayed there until October, approximately 14 October of that year. Is that right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: I was wondering, Ms. George, did you 17 participate in any -- in any elections for councillors or 18 chief -- 19 A: No. 20 Q: -- while you were there? Were you 21 aware of any elections being held during that year, that 22 summer? 23 A: No. 24 Q: You weren't aware of there being -- 25 A: No.

1 Q: -- any elections? And do you -- was 2 -- was there in place, as far as you understood, a -- a 3 chief and council during 1993 in the summer? 4 A: I wasn't aware of it. I was mostly 5 just cooking. 6 Q: You weren't aware of that at all? 7 And I take it -- is -- would it be the same in 1994 and 8 1995 that you told us that you were at the -- at 9 Aazhoodena less often during '94 and '95? 10 Were you aware of there being elections 11 held for Chief or Councillor during those years? 12 A: No, mostly I was just going to visit 13 Dudley between '94 and '95. I wasn't participating in 14 the elections or that, I was mainly there to visit 15 Dudley. 16 Q: I see and did other people that you 17 knew who were on -- in the -- in the former Army Camp, 18 did they tell you about elections being held in those 19 years or were you aware of there being elections? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Thank you, Ms. Bressette -- I'm 22 sorry, I keep calling you that, Ms. George. I've been 23 reading too many notes. 24 On Thursday, Commission Counsel, Ms. 25 Vella, asked you, you may remember, whether on September

1 the 4th you observed any altercation between the police 2 and occupiers. And you said that at one (1) point that 3 there were some -- you saw some of the people, the 4 occupiers, standing on top of a little hill. 5 And you said that you knew something was 6 going on, but you couldn't see what it was because you 7 were too short. Do you remember that evidence? 8 A: You got a little more there? 9 Q: I'm sorry, I can take you to it. You 10 were asked the following question: 11 "Did you observe any altercations as 12 between any members of the police force 13 and any of the occupants?" 14 And I should point out we're talking about 15 September the 4th here. 16 "A: Oh, no, I'm -- there was people 17 around. I -- I know something was 18 going on, but I couldn't see it because 19 I'm short. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: The road was there and then there 22 was a little hill and the people 23 standing on top of that. 24 Q: So you could see something 25 happening, but you couldn't see it very

1 well. 2 A: I knew something was happening, 3 but I don't know, I couldn't see what 4 it was." 5 Does that refresh your memory? 6 A: Yes. The roads down there are all 7 paved and even and then where you got the edges of the -- 8 the ground is kind of built up, so it's a little bit 9 higher. And I was on the road so I was really at a 10 disadvantage to see. 11 Q: At a disadvantage. I understand. 12 Could -- could you indicate on the map for the benefit of 13 the Commissioner, please, where you saw the people 14 standing on the little hill that day? 15 A: It's not on that map. 16 Q: It's not on that map at all? 17 A: No. It was on that side of the Park 18 store. 19 Q: And -- but, as I understood it and as 20 I read it to you, you were asked -- the question you were 21 asked about -- was about whether there was an altercation 22 or an incident involving the police and the occupiers. 23 Now, the police would have been on the 24 outside of the Park? 25 A: No, I believe that was when the --

1 when the -- that was when the police were escorting that 2 last RV out of there. 3 Q: I see, I'm sorry. I should have 4 asked you, Ms. George, do you recall at all what time of 5 the day on September the 4th that was? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Was it -- was it quickly after the 8 time that the people first entered the Park or was it 9 later in the evening? You -- you don't recall? 10 A: I don't check a watch all of the 11 time. 12 Q: I understand. But in any event, 13 you're telling us you believe now that the incident you 14 were referring to last Thursday occurred at the point 15 when the police were still escorting the last RV out of 16 the Camp? 17 A: No, it would have been after the RV 18 was out of there. 19 Q: Out of there? And do you recall 20 whether it was shortly after that time or was it, 21 perhaps, an hour or two (2) hours later? 22 A: It could have been, like I said, I 23 had drove -- went and got my other car, drove in, the 24 police let me in and this would have been -- I don't know 25 whether I sat around there for a while then or how long

1 it was. Really, I don't know. 2 Q: So if I can just at least understand 3 the sequence correctly, I think you told us that you 4 first entered the Park from the beach side; you came up 5 from the beach into the area by the Park store; is that 6 correct? When you first entered the Park that day? 7 A: No, I was over -- way over, where you 8 got -- this is the west side of the Park. I'm talking 9 about the east side of the Park where I walked just on 10 the beach and then I was in the Park. 11 Q: And then you were in the Park, and -- 12 I see. And then at some point after that, you got in 13 your car and drove back up to the built up area; is that 14 correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And then did you stay there for a 17 length of time or did you turn around and go back to the 18 Park immediately? 19 A: Yeah. I mean yes, I got in the car 20 and I drove down the Highway, the road -- the Army Camp 21 Road -- 22 Q: Army Camp Road -- 23 A: -- and I went to the Park and I drove 24 in and the cops all let me in and everything, and I don't 25 know how long I stayed in there at that time or how long

1 the police were there or anything. 2 Q: But it was after you returned to the 3 Park in your car and the police let you in, it was after 4 that that you were aware of some incident between -- 5 involving the police and the occupiers; is that correct? 6 A: There was a big group of people so I 7 -- I assumed there was something going on. 8 Q: Going on. And you're telling us 9 today that that group of people that you're referring to 10 was somewhere on -- inside the Park in an area that is 11 not shown on the map behind you; is that correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. You also told 14 us on Thursday that on September the 6th, which was the 15 day of the confrontation, that you had come to the Park 16 that evening to see if people were hungry; that shortly 17 after your arrival there, Mr. Robert Isaac told you that 18 there was something going on and we needed more guys down 19 there and then at that point you volunteered to go back 20 up to the built up area to look for help. 21 Is that correct? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you also said that before you 24 left, you saw something, a light I think it was you said, 25 on a little hill?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Could you mark -- could you show -- 3 indicate on the map for us, please, where you saw that 4 light? 5 A: It would have been right up in there. 6 Q: Right in that area there? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Ms. George, do you still have the 9 paper copy of that map. I forget the exhibit number. 10 THE REGISTRAR: P-23. 11 MR. IAN McGILP: P-23. No, I think 12 that's -- 13 THE WITNESS: No. This wouldn't do -- 14 well -- 15 MR. IAN McGILP: Just one second, Ms. 16 George. 17 THE WITNESS: It's got the -- 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN McGILP: 20 Q: We'll get you the exhibit. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 A: I think I marked it on that map. 25 Q: I thought you marked some things on

1 that map, but my reading of the transcript, you did not 2 mark that. Just a second, Ms. George. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Ms. George, Ms. Vella is giving you a 7 copy -- a smaller copy of the map that is behind you on 8 the board. And could you just mark on that map, please, 9 with a -- perhaps a letter "H" -- the area that you just 10 indicated with the laser marker on the large screen? 11 A: An "H"? 12 Q: An "H" would do fine, yes, for hill. 13 A: Oh, okay. 14 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. Now you -- 15 when you were interviewed by the SIU, you told the 16 investigators that you saw two (2) guys and the words you 17 used were, Up on the shelf, that you said that you saw 18 the police were coming in their formation, arm to arm, 19 and that you saw two (2) individuals up on the shelf; 20 that one (1) of them had a gun and that the other one had 21 a flashlight. 22 Do you remember telling the SIU that or 23 would you -- would it help you if I read you that segment 24 of your interview with the SIU? 25 A: I seen two (2) guys but only one (1)

1 light. 2 Q: But one (1) light and did you see the 3 other individual had a gun? 4 A: I assumed it was a gun. 5 Q: Thank you. And is that -- so that's 6 an accurate des -- what you told the SIU then, that you 7 saw two (2) individuals, one with a light and the other 8 you assumed had a gun. 9 That was an accurate description of what 10 you saw on that hill that you've marked there? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Thank you. Could you see what the 13 individuals were wearing? 14 A: No. 15 Q: No. Now moving on, Ms. George, when 16 you went back to the -- after you saw the individuals on 17 the hill, you went back up to the main gate at the Army 18 Camp or the former Army Camp; is that right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And that you -- and when you got 21 there you told us that you asked people there where 22 everyone was. 23 Now the first question I have, were there 24 very many people at the main gate when you arrived that 25 evening?

1 A: Pierre, Edie and Marlene sitting on 2 the curb and that's about all I seen. 3 Q: So there was only about three (3) 4 individuals at the gate at that time? 5 A: That I noticed. 6 Q: And do you recall who you asked where 7 everyone was? Do you remember who you asked that 8 question to? 9 A: It was probably Pierre. 10 Q: Pierre. And do you remember what he 11 told you? 12 A: Probably just that he didn't know 13 where anybody was. 14 Q: You don't recall him telling you that 15 he knew people were here or there; he didn't seem to 16 know, thank you. Now you said that, if I have it 17 correct, you said that you waited after you asked Pierre 18 what or where everybody was, you got back into the car 19 with Marlene Cloud I believe and that you saw some lights 20 coming from the east. And that you waited to see what 21 those lights were and it turned out to be the dump truck. 22 And that the dump truck headed down 23 towards the Park and then you followed it at a distance 24 in -- in the direction of the Park; do I have that 25 correct?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Thank you. I wanted to ask you were 3 there any people in the back of the truck as it -- as you 4 saw it go past you? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Were there any -- could you see how 7 many people were in the front of the truck, in the cab of 8 the truck? 9 A: No. 10 Q: So you wouldn't be able to tell us 11 who was in that truck at all? You couldn't -- could you 12 see who was driving it? 13 A: No. 14 Q: And you couldn't see if there was 15 anybody else in the truck at all? 16 A: No. Dump trucks are big and you get 17 out of their way. 18 Q: I appreciate that. Was there anybody 19 else -- was the dump truck the only vehicle -- the only 20 individual or individuals that went down to the Park 21 ahead of you that night or was there anybody else? 22 A: That's all that I noticed. 23 Q: That's all. So no one other than the 24 dump truck responded to your search or your quest for 25 help that night?

1 A: Well, I didn't even find them. 2 Q: You didn't even find them; that's 3 quite correct. Do you know where the dump truck had 4 been? 5 A: No. 6 Q: Thank you. I'm wondering, I 7 understand from your evidence on Thursday that by the 8 time you arrived back up to the gate, the main gate of 9 the -- of the former Army Camp, that Mr. Dudley George 10 had already been transferred from the "OPP Who" car into 11 your brother Pierre's car, is that correct? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Do you know why the decision was made 14 to transfer him from the "OPP Who" car to your brother's 15 car? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Was your brother's car a good 18 vehicle? I understand it was not licensed. 19 Do you know if it was in good repair? 20 A: They had Dudley in there so I assumed 21 they figured it was a good enough car to get us there. 22 Q: To get you there. Thank you, Ms. 23 George. Now I just have some questions about your arrest 24 at the Strathroy Hospital that night. 25 You told us on Thursday I believe, that

1 you arrived at the hospital, that you hopped out of the 2 car and were attempting to get Dudley George out of the 3 rear seat of the car when the police grabbed you from 4 behind by both your arms; is that correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you also said, I believe, that 7 you were struggling with the police officers, because you 8 wanted to help get Dudley out of the car and get someone 9 to look at him; is that right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And when you were interviewed by the 12 SIU investigators, you told them also that the police 13 grabbed you by both arms as you were trying to help 14 Dudley out of the car and you told them that you were 15 trying to get away, because you wanted to see how your 16 brother was doing. 17 Now I take it you meant by that, that what 18 you were trying to do is get your arms free from the 19 police officers who had grabbed you; is that right? 20 A: Yes. I wanted to see how my brother 21 was. 22 Q: I understand. I anticipate we're 23 going to hear evidence from the police officers that 24 arrested you that night, that you were a pretty good 25 match for them and that they, in fact, had considerable

1 difficulty -- 2 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I've 3 seen this lady. I don't think she can come up with a 4 hundred and fifty (150) pounds. Now, if he wants to say 5 that this lady is going to be a good match for two (2) 6 police officers, he better tell us about them. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, 8 at the moment you're saying that that's what you expect 9 the evidence will be? 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN McGILP: 12 Q: I anticipate the evidence will be 13 that these two (2) police officers, two (2) female police 14 officers, one (1) of whom -- each of whom had you grabbed 15 by one (1) arm, had considerable difficulty pinning your 16 arms behind your back in order to place the handcuffs on 17 you. 18 A: I wanted to see my brother. 19 Q: I understand -- I understand that. 20 I'm just asking you if you -- 21 A: I wanted to know how he was. 22 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. 23 A: Wouldn't you at least try to do that 24 if your brother was shot? 25 Q: Well, I cannot answer that question,

1 Ms. George, but I do understand. 2 A: Well, just hope it never, ever 3 happens to you, then. 4 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. I believe you 5 said on Thursday that you can't recall whether you were 6 advised of your rights -- of your legal rights, when you 7 were arrested at the hospital; is that correct? 8 A: I was very worried about my brother. 9 I -- I might -- may have said something in my interviews, 10 I -- 11 Q: You can't -- 12 A: My main concern was finding out how 13 my brother was. 14 Q: I understand that. And I'm just 15 asking you if it's correct, my recollection is correct 16 that you said that you can't recall whether the police 17 officers read you your legal rights at that instance; is 18 that right? I can take you to your evidence, if that 19 will help you. 20 Question, and this is at -- for the 21 record, it's at Page 170 of Thursday's evidence, and the 22 question is: 23 "Did they advise you anything else with 24 respect to your rights, for example? 25 A: I don't recall."

1 Does that -- I'm just trying to ask you, 2 do you recall whether the police officers read you your 3 rights or not when they arrested you at the hospital? 4 A: Could you read that again? 5 Q: Yes, ma'am. 6 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, I 7 hate to rise on something like this, but I mean, "I do 8 not recall," is the best answer, unless he wants her now 9 to say, yes, I recall it and then use that to -- to 10 confront her. She says she didn't recall; I think that's 11 the answer on the record. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He's just 13 asking her now if she can recall saying I don't recall. 14 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Oh, I see. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think. Is 16 that what you're doing? 17 MR. IAN McGILP: That's exactly what I'm 18 doing, Mr. Commissioner. And I'm also giving Mr. Ross 19 occasion to rise this morning, aren't I? 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN McGILP: 22 Q: Ms. George, the police officers -- I 23 anticipate we're going to hear evidence from the police 24 officers that they did read you your rights when they 25 arrested you and I guess the question I have is a simple

1 one. Are you in a position to contradict that evidence 2 today? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: You changed your original question 7 here. I want to try answer you what you're asking me, 8 but now you're asking me in a different way, so I -- 9 Q: I'm sorry. Do you recall when the 10 police officers arrested you, whether they read you your 11 legal rights? 12 A: I don't recall. 13 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. You told us 14 also, on Thursday, that when you were in the jail at the 15 Strathroy -- Strathroy Detachment that your clothes were 16 taken at some point; do you recall that? 17 A: My clothes, yes. 18 Q: Yes. And I anticipate we're going to 19 hear evidence from the police officers that they spoke to 20 Mr. Ron George that evening and that Mr. Ron George 21 indicated that he had spoken to you and that you and your 22 brother, Pierre, were both willing to provide your 23 clothes to the police, but that neither of you was 24 prepared to make any statement of any kind. 25 The question I have, do you agree that

1 when the police asked you for your clothes that evening, 2 you provided them voluntarily after having spoken with 3 Mr. Ron George? 4 A: Yes, I provided them voluntarily, 5 although I didn't see any reason why they wanted them. 6 Q: Thank you, Ms. George. Now, if I 7 may, I'd like to go back to the period of 1993. When Mr. 8 Roderick George or Judas George, as he's sometimes known, 9 was here on November the 23rd, he told the Commission 10 that he saw Bruce Elijah and Bob Antone off and on at the 11 Army Camp, from 1993 on. 12 Did you see Bruce Elijah or Bob Anyone 13 when you were at the Army Camp, or the former Army Camp, 14 in 1993 or '4? 15 A: No. 16 Q: You didn't see them at all? 17 A: No. 18 Q: What -- what about Layton Elijah; did 19 you see him? 20 A: In '93? 21 Q: '93 or '4? 22 A: No. 23 Q: What about in '95, prior to the -- 24 prior to September the 4th; did you see any of those 25 three (3) individuals at the Army Camp in that time

1 frame? 2 A: Prior to when? 3 Q: Between -- in 1995 prior to the 4 occupation of the Park on September the 4th? 5 A: I know I never seen Layton and I 6 can't really recall whether I had seen Bob or Bruce. 7 Q: You can't recall? Thank you. I 8 believe you said that you saw Mr. -- the Jewel brothers, 9 Russ and Les, in the built-up area, after the takeover of 10 the built-up area on July the 29th, 1995. 11 Do you recall that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And you -- you mentioned that their 14 sister made a lot of donations to the cause; do you 15 remember that? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Could you -- were those donations by 18 way of money or food or do you recall? 19 A: Food and she done the cooking. 20 Q: And she done the cooking? Do you 21 know what the sister's name is? 22 A: Not offhand. 23 Q: Do you know where she lives today? 24 A: Not really and I didn't really know 25 then either.

1 Q: The -- the reason I ask, to explain 2 it to you, Ms. George, is that the Commission has been 3 unable to contact either Russ or Les Jewel in order that 4 he have an -- they have an opportunity to give evidence 5 here and I was just wondering if you could help us in any 6 way through the sister. 7 A: No. 8 Q: Thank you. 9 A: I never met them before that and I 10 don't know where they are now. 11 Q: Thank you. And you don't know where 12 the sister is or what her name is either? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Thank you. Your son is -- one (1) of 15 your sons is Glenn Bressette, that's correct? 16 A: Only son. 17 Q: Your only son? And when -- when he 18 gave evidence on November the 10th at this Inquiry he was 19 asked if he knew Robert Isaac and he answered, Yes, it 20 was my brother's (sic) boyfriend. The -- the question I 21 would ask: 22 Is that an accurate description of your 23 relationship with Robert Isaac? 24 A: Whose? What -- what are you saying 25 here? You were saying that it was my brother's

1 boyfriend? 2 Q: No, no. No, no. Glen -- Glen 3 Bressette told the Commission on November the 10th that 4 Robert Isaac was his mother's boyfriend? 5 A: Yes, okay. Well, he was my friend. 6 Q: He was your friend? Thank you. When 7 did you meet Robert Isaac? 8 A: In '95. 9 Q: In '95? Was that prior to the -- 10 prior to the takeover of the built-up area on July 29th 11 or after? 12 A: It would be after. 13 Q: It was after July 29th? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Thank you. Did you also know Ed 16 Isaac and Sam Isaac? 17 A: After, I would have met them 18 Q: After what, ma'am? 19 A: After Dudley was killed. 20 Q: After the confro -- after Dudley was 21 killed is when you first met Ed and Sam Isaac? 22 A: I met Ed then and his wife. I met 23 Sam sometime around there. 24 Q: But you think you met Sam after 25 September the 6th, also?

1 A: Oh yes, after. 2 Q: Afterwards. 3 A: Definitely not before. 4 Q: When Marlin Simon was here and gave 5 evidence, he mentioned that there was a 4th Isaac 6 brother, he said, whom he called Skid. 7 Did you ever know of a relative of -- of 8 the Isaac brothers who was known as Skid? 9 A: No, that's not his name. I'm trying 10 to think of it, it's not Skid. I can't think -- Skib. 11 Q: I'm sorry, did I get that correct; 12 Skib? 13 A: You said Skid. 14 Q: Oh, I said Skid, S-K-I-D is what Mr. 15 Simon told us. Are you indicating that you remember 16 there is a 4th Isaac brother? 17 A: Skib, S-K-I-B, I guess. 18 Q: Is -- is his name. Thank you. Do -- 19 do -- is that a nickname or is that a -- 20 A: That would be a nickname. 21 Q: Do you happen to know what his -- 22 A: No. 23 Q: -- given name is? Thank you. Now I 24 take it from time to time that you would have had -- or 25 perhaps I should ask you. Did you from time to time --

1 would you like a moment, Ms. George? 2 A: I'm just thinking how happy he'd be 3 hearing you call him that. 4 Q: I -- I won't ask you any further 5 questions about -- 6 A: Just hope he doesn't see this. 7 Q: Ms. George, did you from to time, 8 have conversations with Robert Isaac relating to the 9 Stoney Point people's efforts to get their land back? 10 You said he was your friend and I'm just 11 wondering if you had talked to him, from time to time, 12 about the efforts the Stoney Point people were making to 13 reclaim their lands? 14 A: Not really, we were friends, we 15 didn't spend a lot of political time. 16 Q: You didn't? Would you say that Mr. 17 Robert Isaac supported the idea of -- of taking over the 18 Park or the built-up area, based on what you knew from 19 talking to him? 20 A: I can't really say what his opinions 21 were on anything. 22 Q: He didn't, in any of those 23 conversations, indicate to you what he thought about the 24 idea of taking over the built-up area or the Park? He 25 never voiced an opinion on those matters to you?

1 A: We never really talked about a lot of 2 things like that. I said we were friends. 3 Q: Thank you. Now when you were last 4 Thursday, Ms. Vella asked you some questions about 5 warrior societies and warriors. 6 And as I have it -- as I recollect, you 7 told us that warriors had a certain number of 8 responsibilities and that they included protecting the 9 lands and returning the lands and protecting women and 10 children and ensuring that there was enough food for the 11 community; do you recall? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Now one of the documents that's been 14 disclosed to this Commission, is the minutes of the 15 Stoney Point negotiating team and a meet -- of a meeting 16 that was held on January the 24th, 1996. And for the 17 record the document number is 1010734. One (1) of the 18 individuals that was at that meeting is someone named 19 Yellow Fox. 20 And when Tina George was here and she was 21 also present at that meeting -- I'm amusing you again 22 with names; am I? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Tina told -- Tina George told the 25 Commission on January the 20th that Yellow Fox was in

1 fact Robert Isaac. Did -- did you ever know Robert to go 2 by that name? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Yes. Now at that meeting, the 5 minutes indicate that at that meeting, Mr. Isaac told the 6 meeting that he could bring a thousand (1,000) warriors 7 here. 8 And the question I have for you is: Did 9 Mr. Robert Isaac support the idea of bringing individuals 10 or warriors from other First Nation communities to help 11 the Stoney Point people protect their lands and people? 12 A: He never, ever mentioned it to me. 13 Q: He never mentioned that idea to you? 14 A: No. I was a cook and a friend. I 15 was not a -- what they're doing, you know like, that 16 wasn't -- I was just there to cook. 17 Q: That was not something you ever spoke 18 about with Mr. Isaac? 19 A: No, I chose not to become involved in 20 a lot of that. 21 Q: Ms. George, you'll be pleased to know 22 that I have no more questions about Skid or Yellow Fox or 23 anyone else and thank you very much for your co- 24 operation, you've been very helpful. 25 A: Please say Skib.

1 Q: I'm sorry. Skib. 2 A: Thank you. 3 Q: Thank you very much, Ms. George. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. 5 O'Marra...? 6 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AL O'MARRA: 8 Q: Good morning, Ms. George. My name is 9 Al O'Marra and I appear on behalf of the Chief Coroner. 10 And he's involved in this Inquiry to assist in 11 principally looking at the events that followed the 12 shooting of your brother. 13 There are two (2) areas that I'd like to 14 ask you questions on, and one is with respect to that 15 horrific journey that you and your brother and JT went on 16 to the hospital at Strathroy. 17 And the second is with respect to the 18 effect upon you and others as a result of the shooting of 19 your brother, Dudley. 20 In terms of the movement from the main 21 gate to the hospital, as I understand it, it was about 22 half way or a little short of half way that the car tire 23 blew and that you went into the farmhouse. 24 You and your brother both -- Pierre, went 25 there, into the farmhouse?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And -- and as we've heard, a 3 phone call was made to try to obtain assistance by 4 getting an ambulance sent to that location, yes? 5 A: Yes. I'm sorry. 6 Q: And we also heard from JT, who we -- 7 we know never left the car, he stayed with your brother. 8 He did indicate that he felt that there was no offer of 9 assistance from the house, but that's contrary to what 10 you experienced when you went there. 11 They were very helpful, as much as they 12 could be, to you? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And indeed, in addition to 15 making the telephone call and remaining on the phone 16 while you and your brother drove to the end of the lane, 17 they'd also provided you with some towels and ice in the 18 assistance of some -- some way to -- in the treatment of 19 your -- of your -- of your brother? 20 A: I don't recall. 21 Q: Okay. I expect we will hear directly 22 from them on that. But in terms of the journey from the 23 main gate to the hospital, I understand that it's 24 approximately fifty (50) kilometres and you indicated 25 last day that it -- it would take normally about forty-

1 five (45) minutes -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- to do that drive? "Yes." 4 And that this was about half way and that 5 you'd spent at least five (5) minutes at the house, 6 before driving to the end of the lane way; is that 7 correct? 8 A: We were at the house the amount of 9 time to make the phone call and then we dec -- we decided 10 to wait out at the road because we figured we would meet 11 the ambulance at the road instead of making them go all 12 the way up the driveway. 13 Q: So there was time both at the 14 farmhouse and then at the end of the lane way? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And then the decision was made 17 to proceed down what we know now as Nauvoo Road to the 18 stop sign at County Road 22? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And you stayed there for a 21 period of time, as well? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: In the hope that you'd see the 24 ambulance coming from some direction? 25 A: Yes. The intersection there would

1 have had -- if the ambulance came down the 402 it would 2 have had to come by the road where we were sitting at. 3 Q: Yes. The -- the 402 is just beyond 4 that stop sign. 5 A: Yes, you could see the traffic from 6 where were. 7 Q: And 22 is another direct route from 8 Strathroy? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And when you left that -- that 11 location, of course you're driving into Strathroy on -- 12 on at least one (1) flattened tire? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Now you talked earlier about the 15 first part of the trip that, of course, your -- your 16 brother was driving as fast as that vehicle could 17 possibly travel until the -- the blowout? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Now, I understand, you know, your 20 concerns at that time, but would it be fair to say that 21 when you moved, after the farmhouse, that the vehicle was 22 -- was going somewhat slower because of the flattened 23 tire? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. Now, when you drove into

1 Strathroy, as we saw in the map, you turned onto Centre 2 Road, which goes right down into the community. You also 3 drive down past the OPP station. 4 A: You -- you mean did we or -- 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: I -- I don't think we went by there, 7 but I'm not too sure. Pierre was the one who knew how to 8 get to the hospital and I let him do the driving. 9 Q: All right. Was -- was your attention 10 focussed on the back seat and your brother? 11 A: Yes, most of my attention was 12 focussed back there. I was, you know like, worried about 13 Dudley and -- and certainly didn't need a backseat driver 14 at that time. 15 Q: No. And -- but you did observe as 16 least a police car or police cars when you got into 17 Strathroy? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And I -- I'm not sure whether 20 you were aware of this -- and I expect that we will hear 21 -- but perhaps you could confirm if -- if you are aware, 22 that because of this flattened tire that as the vehicle 23 was driving down the street it, in fact, was spraying a - 24 - a -- a -- or shooting out sparks as a result of the -- 25 the metal rim; were you aware of that?

1 A: Not really. Wouldn't that make the 2 car blow up? 3 Q: I think we will hear that there was a 4 -- a hail of sparks as a result of that, but my question 5 is -- is this, that -- did you -- did you have any sense 6 that the -- the police vehicles that you did see made any 7 attempt to -- to try to stop or intervene as you moved 8 towards the hospital? 9 A: They followed behind, there was none 10 that pulled out in front of us stopping us, they just 11 pulled in behind us. 12 Q: Okay. I have no further questions of 13 you about the -- that horrific journey, but let me now 14 turn to the second area and that's the effect upon you 15 and -- and others. 16 You answered in questions to my Friend Ms. 17 Vella about your not being able to continue with work? 18 A: That's true. 19 Q: And also that -- that you've -- you 20 have this continuing distrust or mistrust of -- of 21 police? 22 A: Oh, yes. 23 Q: Okay. And we heard about JT who was 24 in the car, directly from him, about the effects that it 25 has had on him.

1 Has there been additional affects upon you 2 in terms of your -- your own relations and your ability 3 to function in your community? 4 A: A great deal. I don't really feel 5 safe a lot of times, unless I'm at home at Stoney Point 6 or within the boundaries of Stoney Point. Even if I go 7 to, you know, like my daughter's place. Like, I was 8 already saying that I'd go there for a barbecue, then the 9 police would be riding up and down the road and I was 10 even very afraid to drive down the road myself. 11 I have told people before that, like, if I 12 was by myself I -- I was not stopping in my car for any 13 police, I was just going to drive right until I got to 14 Stoney Point until I knew there was somebody there. 15 Q: When you were working -- when you 16 went back to work -- you were working at a -- a school in 17 the -- in the community here? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Was there any offer of appointment -- 20 or employee assistance because of the difficulties that 21 you were experiencing? 22 A: What do you mean exactly? 23 Q: Well, counselling or any kind of 24 assistance that would help you deal the traumatic death 25 of -- of your brother and the circumstances in which you

1 were directly involved? 2 A: My boss there was giving me like a 3 two (2) year leave of absence. 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: And my doctor thought that it would 6 be better for me if I went back to work and got back on a 7 schedule and that would help me get back into a routine. 8 Q: Yes. What of counselling services? 9 Let me ask you just specifically. 10 Were you provided any grief counselling 11 following the death of your brother? 12 A: They had some over at Kettle Point 13 but I didn't feel safe travelling over there. 14 Q: Perhaps within your family, you and 15 your brother were the most directly involved in the -- in 16 the circumstances of -- Dudley's death. While 17 counselling was offered through Kettle Point, did -- you 18 didn't -- you didn't access it or it wasn't -- was it not 19 available to you or just -- you chose not to? 20 A: I didn't really feel safe going over 21 there a lot of times. There was a lot of people in 22 Kettle Point who were quite unfriendly towards us at 23 Stoney Point. I have talked to Native counsellors in 24 recent years but in the beginning there, no. I was too 25 afraid to go places.

1 And like -- like the -- the police over at 2 Kettle Point. It was like they're always watching out 3 for me to, you know, like I said if I went to my 4 daughter's place, they would be right there. 5 And I just didn't have -- any trust in 6 them and I just didn't feel safe to go anywhere where 7 they would know where I'm at and they would be right 8 there to -- be -- just, like, harass me. 9 Q: Now we heard from Gina George who 10 spoke about the effect this has had upon her husband as 11 well as her son and -- and herself. 12 And she spoke about the services being 13 available through Kettle Point but nothing directly in to 14 Stoney Point, and -- and that was your experience as 15 well? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Now you indicate that there were at 18 least some -- there was some assistance through the faith 19 community, the Mennonites had come into Stoney Point; any 20 others? 21 A: The Native healers you mean? 22 Q: Well, what -- however you would 23 describe the faith community. 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Hmm hmm. Now I anticipate that we

1 will hear from your brother Pierre, although I understand 2 he's not well at the moment. Tell us about, from your 3 observation, the effect upon -- this event on -- on his 4 life. 5 A: My brother Pierre chose to speak out 6 about the racism and police brutality and he was accosted 7 by the police a few times there where he's had it I feel, 8 a lot worse than I have had. Because I at least like 9 I'll -- I'll stay at Stoney and just go out when I feel I 10 -- it's safe to do so. 11 And -- but my brother Pierre, he's -- I'd 12 say he's a lot more shaken up by the events that have 13 happened to him, caused to him, by the police. 14 Q: Like yourself, did he have -- did he 15 have difficulty in terms of his employment or continuing 16 to work afterwards? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Are you aware as to whether Pierre 19 had available to him any kind of counselling or other 20 services to help him in the aftermath of the death of 21 your brother? 22 A: I can't really say about all that he 23 done. 24 Q: Let me just ask you, finally, Ms. 25 George, as being a family member who was directly

1 involved in the circumstances, has there been any 2 apology, officially or otherwise to you? 3 A: From the police? 4 Q: From anyone. 5 A: From anyone? 6 Q: Officially? 7 A: No. Although -- who was it -- I seen 8 this man named Jim Potts and he -- he apologized. He -- 9 he says he didn't know what all had happened to me. I 10 seen him just in January and he apologized then because 11 he says he didn't know what all had happened to me. 12 He says he listened to the tapes a couple 13 of months ago and he finally learned. 14 Q: And Jim Potts is -- is who? 15 A: Something to do with the OPP. 16 Q: All right. Thank you, Ms. George, 17 those are my questions of you. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much. Mr. Ross...? 20 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I'll be just a few 21 minutes, Mr. Commissioner. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTHONY ROSS: 24 Q: Ms. George, I want to ask you just 25 about three (3) areas. Number one, the easiest one, with

1 respect to your clothes, Counsel for the OPP has 2 suggested that this was voluntary. 3 How much choice did you think you had when 4 they asked you for your clothes? 5 A: I didn't think I had any. 6 Q: I -- I -- I -- 7 A: I thought they were just going to 8 take them anyways, whether I gave them or not. 9 Q: And I understand that when you were - 10 - that you were arrested at some point and they told you 11 you were going to be charged with attempted murder; that 12 was your evidence? 13 A: Yes, that we were going to me -- 14 well, we were arrested for attempted murder. 15 Q: Did they tell you who you attempted 16 to murder? 17 A: No. 18 Q: I see, just attempted murder at 19 large, I see. And with respect to this arrest, were any 20 papers served on you? Did they give you any papers? 21 A: No. 22 Q: So even when you left the police 23 station, having been arrested for attempted murder, 24 nobody told you and nobody gave you any papers or 25 anything?

1 A: No. 2 Q: Did they ever get back to you and 3 say, look, that the arrest was improper, they made a 4 mistake, that you didn't try to murder anybody, to their 5 knowledge? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And you spoke about your visits to 8 your daughters, and the word -- I noted you said that 9 about the police harassing you. 10 Now this -- where did your daughters live? 11 A: In Kettle Point. 12 Q: So when you were down at Kettle Point 13 and you were being harassed, this was by OPP officers? 14 A: Kettle Point police mainly. 15 Q: Kettle Point police? And as far as 16 Stoney Point is concerned, you say that you -- you don't 17 like leaving Stoney Point, you feel safe there? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: Yeah. Now as a First Nations person, 20 do you believe it's right for anybody to feel they've got 21 to hide in any one little area in this big country? 22 A: No. This is supposed to be all of 23 our land. 24 Q: And as far as this Inquiry is 25 concerned, I must ask you first, when did you first move

1 on to -- on to the Camp site? 2 A: The built up area -- 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: -- was July 30th. 5 Q: And were you living on -- on the site 6 before then? Were you at the range? 7 A: I was living on the range, yes. 8 Q: So you lived on the range and you 9 moved to the built up area. Now why did you think it was 10 necessary to have to move onto the range in the first 11 place? 12 A: Our people had been trying to get our 13 land back for over fifty (50) years and they were 14 building up to buildings on the -- up the barracks, they 15 were refurbishing them. You knew they weren't going to 16 give the land back so when the other people moved onto 17 the ranges, I went and moved there, too. 18 Q: Would you agree that this more of a 19 political statement, wanting Government to changes its 20 position? 21 A: I think so. 22 Q: So you weren't really doing this 23 expecting that you'd get a deed in your name, it was part 24 of a movement to say, Give us back the land which was 25 ours in the first place?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And with the relationship that exists 3 now between the Occupiers, the people at Aazhoodena and 4 Kettle Point, if these lands are returned, what do you 5 think would happen if they returned under the management 6 of Chief and Council down at Kettle Point? 7 Would that be a good thing, a bad thing 8 and why? 9 A: Well, I'd say it would be bad for it 10 to go to Kettle Point because all of this time, they -- 11 they weren't trying to get our land back for us, they 12 were accepting money from the Government for 13 compensation, but they weren't trying to get our land 14 back. 15 Q: Thank you very much, Ms. George, 16 you've been very helpful. Thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much, Mr. Ross. Ms. Vella...? 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just one (1) matter. I 20 wonder if we could make the map that you marked for the 21 OPPA Counsel the next exhibit, please? 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-156. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-156. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-156: 8"x11" "Stan" Thompson Drawing,

1 September 20/95, Marked by Witness Ms. 2 Carolyn George, Feb 07/05 3 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: That concludes the re- 5 exam. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 7 very much, Ms. George, for coming here and giving us your 8 evidence. We're finished now and I think this would be a 9 good point for us to take a morning break. Thank you. 10 11 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 12 13 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 14 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 15 16 --- Upon recessing at 11:50 a.m. 17 --- Upon resuming at 12:06 p.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 20 resumed. Please be seated. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Commissioner, the 22 next Witness of the Commission is Hendrikus Veens. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, just 24 have a seat, Mr. Veens. 25 MR. HENDRIKUS VEENS: Okay, thank you.

1 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Veens, do you prefer 2 to swear on the Bible, affirm or use an alternate oath? 3 MR. HENDRIKUS VEENS: I prefer to swear 4 on the Bible. 5 THE REGISTRAR: State your name in full 6 for us, please. 7 MR. HENDRIKUS VEENS: My name is 8 Hendrikus Wilhelmus Veens, just call Hank for short. 9 THE REGISTRAR: Very good. Now could you 10 spell your first two (2) names for us, please. 11 THE WITNESS: Hendrikus, H-E-N-D-R-I-K-U- 12 S. Wilhelmus, W-I-L-H-E-L-M-U-S. 13 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir. 14 15 HENDRIKUS WILHELMUS VEENS, SWORN 16 17 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 18 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Veens. I 19 understand that you also sometimes go by the name Hank? 20 A: Yes, I do. 21 Q: Your date of birth is January the 22 7th, 1955? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I understand that you are married 25 and that you have seven (7) children?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And what is the name of your wife? 3 A: Mary. 4 Q: And where is your current residence? 5 A: We live at 6840 Nauvoo Road, R.R. 1 6 Arkona. 7 Q: How long have you resided there? 8 A: Since '67. 9 Q: And can you just give us a sense 10 where is your -- your house in relation to 22 -- County 11 Road 22 and Townsend? 12 A: I'm about from Highway 22 -- I'm 13 about a mile and a quarter from the stop sign. 14 Q: All right. And what -- 15 A: Oh, Townsend Line, I'm -- I'm about 16 two (2) miles away. 17 Q: All right. Thank you. All right. 18 Now, Mr. Veens, I'd like you -- I understand that you 19 were home the night of September the 6th, 1995 in the 20 evening. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And would you kindly tell us to the 23 best of your recollection, some years later, what 24 transpired that evening. 25 A: It was an evening -- it was fact a

1 warm evening. We went to bed, let's say eleven o'clock 2 or quarter after eleven, I don't remember exactly. And 3 about 11:30 we heard this tire -- car going up the -- up 4 the road and I rolled over and said to my wife, this 5 car's got a -- got a flat tire. And I -- you could hear 6 it you know, thumping down the road. 7 And then it came up our lane way, oh boy, 8 it's going up our lane way. And shortly after there was 9 a pounding on -- one the door and I answered the door and 10 two (2) people were -- were there, Carolyn and Pierre. 11 And they mentioned they need help, their brother was 12 shot. 13 And right away I took a quick glance 14 outside -- just a quick glance and then I went to the 15 phone which is at the other end of the room. So, dialled 16 9-1-1 as quick as possible and told then what happened 17 and the ambulance was on the way. 18 Q: All right. Now, let's just back up 19 for a moment. You -- you indicated the first indication 20 of their appearance was that you actually heard the -- 21 the thumping of the flat tire? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. Now, there was a pounding 24 on the door and you -- were you on -- were you alone when 25 you answered the door?

1 A: My wife came down, too. It all 2 happened very quick -- 3 Q: All right. 4 A: -- that time. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: I just ran down the stairs, opened 7 the door up and the two (2) people were -- were there. 8 Q: Now, you indicated that you now know 9 those individuals to be Pierre and Carolyn, I take it you 10 knew -- did you know them at the time? 11 A: No, I never met them. 12 Q: Did they tell you who there were? 13 A: Yes, they did. 14 Q: Did they actually give you their 15 names? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And approximately what time 18 was it that the door -- that you heard the door knock? 19 A: Well, 11:30. 20 Q: All right. And how is that you can 21 be certain about that time? 22 A: I don't remember too much about it, 23 just reading the notes and stuff like that. It's, you 24 know, it's -- 25 Q: Okay. But it was typically your

1 habit, was it at the time, to be -- to go to bed between 2 11:00 and 11:15? 3 A: Yes, by eleven o'clock. 4 Q: All right. Now, when you saw these 5 two (2) individuals in front of you, can you -- can you 6 describe what their emotional, if you will, or their -- 7 their appearance was at the door? 8 A: They were very -- they looked very 9 concerned. They needed help and -- and I tried to help 10 them by dialling 9-1-1. 11 Q: Did they give you any cause to be 12 fearful? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. Did you notice the car? 15 A: I took a quick glance. Yes, it was - 16 - it was actually -- they had it running hot, steaming, 17 and I didn't notice the flat tire, but I -- I -- a just - 18 - I definitely heard a flat tire. 19 Q: All right. Did you ever see the occu 20 -- the other occupants of the car? 21 A: No, I did not. I did not. I -- 22 after I ran to the phone the operator made sure I stayed 23 on the line. 24 Q: All right. Well, let's get to that 25 telephone call then. First of all, prior to making the

1 call, did you or your wife offer any assistance to them? 2 A: It was during the call my wife 3 offered some assistance. 4 Q: All right. Who made -- who initiated 5 the telephone call? 6 A: I did. 7 Q: And who did you call? 8 A: 9-1-1. 9 Q: All right. What did you tell them? 10 A: A person is on my yard and he's shot. 11 Q: Did you tell them anything else? 12 A: That's about it. 13 Q: Did you request anything? 14 A: I requested an ambulance as soon as 15 possible. 16 Q: All right. And did you provide them 17 with your address? 18 A: Yes, I did. 19 Q: And the address you provided them 20 with, was that -- is that a street -- a municipal address 21 or a 9-1-1 phone number? 22 A: I gave them -- I don't quite what I 23 all gave them, I'm -- I'm almost sure I would have given 24 them my 9-1-1 number and my -- our Arkona address. 25 Q: All right. Were you asked any

1 questions by the operator? 2 A: Yes, I was. One (1) time the 3 operator asked me if they had guns? I that was -- oh, 4 that's something. 5 Q: Why did you think that? 6 A: Well, I just -- no, I -- I thought, 7 you know, just strange to ask that question. 8 Q: All right. Did you provide them with 9 a response? 10 A: Yes, I said they didn't have guns. 11 Q: All right. And was this question 12 relative to the length of the conversation -- towards the 13 beginning, middle or end of it? 14 A: I would say it was in the middle of 15 the conversation. 16 Q: Approximately how long did you have 17 the 9-1-1 operator on the line? 18 A: I estimate it ten (10) to fifteen 19 (15) minutes, well that I was on the line and then I 20 walked outside. I got my wife to hold the line and then 21 I walked outside to see if they needed any assistance and 22 when I walked outside they -- they were gone. 23 Q: All right. And you indicated 24 approximately what -- what time had lapsed between them 25 coming to your door and then you going back out and

1 seeing they were gone? 2 A: I would say fifteen (15) minutes, but 3 things were happening very fast then. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: Because Carolyn came in a couple of 6 times in between there asking, Is the ambulance coming? 7 And I said, Yes, the ambulance is coming because the 8 operator assured me the ambulance was coming. 9 Q: All right. Now, you indicated 10 earlier that at some point in time, something was taken 11 to -- to these individuals? 12 Did you take anything out to these 13 individuals? 14 A: Oh, my wife tried to help these 15 individuals with ice cubes and a few clean diapers. 16 Q: Okay. All right. At some -- did -- 17 where was the car located when Carolyn and Pierre first 18 approached the door? 19 A: Right beside the house. 20 Q: And did it remain there? 21 A: Yes. I walked -- oh, maybe I might 22 have instructed them to park at the end of lane, because 23 the ambulance was coming, should be here any time. 24 Q: Now, you indicated that when you went 25 back outside after being on the 9-1-1 call and you said

1 that Mary, your wife, was still on the line, that the car 2 had left? 3 A: Yes, the car was gone. 4 Q: And obviously you -- you hadn't been 5 aware that they were planning to leave? 6 A: No. 7 Q: All right. Did you advise the 9-1-1 8 operator that they had left? 9 A: Yes, I -- I must have walked back to 10 the house and, yes, I said they had left; that was 11 fifteen (15), twenty (20) minutes after. 12 Q: Did -- did you advise the 9-1-1 13 operator to cancel the ambulance call? 14 A: I think I have, yes. I am not sure, 15 though, but... 16 Q: All right. Well we have a -- a tape 17 of that 9-1-1 call which we will play later, and I'll you 18 to identify and that may refresh your memory in that 19 respect. 20 A: It should. 21 Q: All right. In -- in your -- have you 22 ever had occasion to -- to request ambulance assistance 23 to your house prior to this? 24 A: I -- I have. One time, yes. 25 Q: All right. And can you tell me

1 approximately how long, if you can recall, it took the 2 ambulance to arrive at your house after calling for them? 3 A: Well, this particular time -- this 4 particular time we were baling straw and I had my hired 5 man on -- on the wagon and I was driving the tractor and 6 I stopped, he fell off and he broke his arm. 7 So I -- I ran to the house and dialled 9- 8 1-1 and he was there very quick. I think dispatch came 9 from Watford but I'm not sure. He was there, I felt, 10 very fast. 11 Q: And can you just give a sense as to 12 how -- how quickly that was in terms of minutes? 13 A: I would say ten (10) minutes. 14 Q: All right. And you believe the -- 15 the ambulance came from Waterford, did you say? 16 A: Watford. 17 Q: Watford, all right. 18 A: Yes, I just -- I don't know where it 19 came but I just assumed it did. 20 Q: In September of 1995, to your 21 knowledge, was there still an ambulance dispatch there? 22 A: I think there was but I'm not sure. 23 Q: Did the operator indicate to you 24 where the ambulance was being -- 25 A: No.

1 Q: -- dispatched from? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you make any assumptions in that 4 respect? 5 A: I felt it came from Forest or from 6 Watford. From Forest it should have been there, if 7 stepped on, I think just over ten (10) minutes should 8 have been there. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: And Watford, it should -- it could 11 have been there in six (6), seven (7) minutes. 12 Q: All right, okay. If I recollect, 13 Watford is just the other side of the -- of the 22? 14 A: Yes, it's about three (3) miles. 15 Q: All right. Now did you -- did you 16 come to find out what had happened with respect to the -- 17 the car and its ultimate trip? 18 A: No. I've -- if I had found out it 19 was about -- would have been a few months after the 20 incident -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: -- like I -- I heard it over the news 23 that, you know, they weren't treated very good. Now I 24 hear how good they were treated, so I ... 25 Q: Did you ever see either Carolyn

1 and/or Pierre George again? 2 A: I seen Pierre about a month after. 3 He thanked me for trying to help. 4 Q: Did he -- and -- and where did this 5 conversation take place? 6 A: On the farm. 7 Q: Right. We'll I'd like to now -- if 8 you'll just give us a second. We will go to the tape of 9 the 9-1-1 call and for the record, we have a transcript 10 of that -- of the entire proceedings of the 9-1-1 11 conversations, which are not just the one (1) involving 12 Mr. Veens but other ones as well. 13 It's Inquiry Document Number 5000215. And 14 what we will do is -- we will mark the disk itself 15 containing the audio file as the next exhibit. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-157 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 157 is the 18 disk. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-157: Audio Disk of document 21 5000215, 9-1-1 call from Hank 22 Veens, September 6/7, 1995 23 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And then the transcript 25 from the tape of September 6th and 7th, 1995 as the next

1 exhibit. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-158. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-158. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-158: Document 5000215 Transcript 6 of 9-1-1 call from Hank Veens 7 pages 2662-2673, September 8 6/7, 1995, 12 pages typed on 9 September 26/'95. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 12 Q: Mr. Veens, we're going to provide you 13 with a copy of the transcript as well and at some point 14 we will be stopping the tape to ask you some questions. 15 A: Okay. Thank you. 16 17 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: Okay. I've just interrupted that 21 tape. Do you -- did you recognize the voice of that 22 recent male caller? 23 A: Not really. I guess it's me. 24 Q: Okay. All right, can you continue to 25 play that passage for me, please.

1 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: All right, having had a chance to 5 hear that segment, are you able to confirm that that's 6 your voice? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And is that -- that was the 9-1-1 9 operator who you spoke to, as far as you can recollect? 10 A: As far as I can recollect, yes. 11 Q: All right, thank you. And at this 12 time, were the -- were Carolyn and Pierre at -- at the 13 door? 14 A: Yes, they were. 15 Q: And is that there -- Pierre's voice 16 we heard in the background, indicating where the gunshot 17 wound was to you? 18 A: I -- I guess so. I can't remember 19 that no more. 20 Q: All right. Well, who would you have 21 received that information from? 22 A: Now, when I think back, I think I got 23 the information from Carolyn. 24 Q: All right, fair enough. And 25 obviously, you passed that along to the operator?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. Perhaps you could resume the 3 tape. 4 5 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYING) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: All right. Now just that passage 9 that we've heard between the female caller and the OPP 10 operator, do you recognize the voice of the female? 11 A: That's my wife. 12 Q: All right. And just for the record I 13 should note in the transcript this conversation is at 14 page 10 and 11 and Mary Veens is identified as Caller- 15 Nauvoo-Female. 16 And earlier on I should have indicated the 17 prior passage was at page 8 of the transcript and Mr. 18 Veens is identified as Caller-Nauvoo-Male. All right. 19 We'll -- sorry? That's page 8. Yeah, it's just page 8. 20 I'll resume, now, the balance of the tape. 21 22 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYING) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: All right. That further exchange,

1 again, do you recognize the name of the voice making the 2 call? And that was who? 3 A: That's me. 4 Q: All right. And just for the record, 5 that exchange occurred at page 11 of the transcript and, 6 again, Mr. Veens is identified as Caller-Nauvoo-Male. 7 And was that, in fact, the end of the 8 telephone call? 9 A: Yes, it was. 10 Q: And just to be clear, either you or 11 your wife was on the telephone the entire time; is that 12 correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And now that you have 15 heard this segment of the tape, does it refresh your 16 memory as to whether it was you who cancelled the 17 ambulance? 18 A: I guess it was me that -- yes. 19 Q: Well, I don't see the word here, 20 "cancel". I think you indicated that -- 21 A: They had left. 22 Q: That they had left. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Is that -- is that as far as you 25 went?

1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: All right. Fair enough. And you 3 indicated that the car had gone to the hospital. 4 A: I assumed. 5 Q: You assumed? And which hospital 6 would that be? 7 A: Strathroy. 8 Q: And would that be obvious to the 9 operator? 10 A: I would think so. 11 Q: All right. And why is that? 12 A: Well, that's the closest hospital 13 from -- from where I was. 14 Q: Fair enough. And approximately how - 15 - how long would it take -- normally, take to make the 16 trip from your house to the hospital at Strathroy? 17 A: If you get on the 402, just over 18 twenty (20) minutes, twenty-five (25) minutes. 19 Q: All right. And do you recall now 20 what colour the car was that had pulled up in the 21 driveway? 22 A: Yeah, I -- I kind of remember it as 23 kind of a white car. 24 Q: All right. And do you recall what 25 make or how large it was?

1 A: No. It was a good sized car. I'm 2 guessing, you know, it was a GM model. 3 Q: All right. Fair enough. And I'm 4 just going to play the balance of the tape for you. 5 6 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED) 7 8 Q: Now having heard that, do you recall 9 whether or not you received a further telephone call from 10 -- from the 9-1-1 operator? 11 A: No. 12 Q: All right. Well perhaps we can 13 refresh your memory. 14 A: Oh, oh. 15 16 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYED) 17 18 Q: All right. I've stopped the tape at 19 that point, but in any event, you've now had a chance to 20 hear that last part of the tape that we've just played. 21 Do you recall now whether or not the 9-1-1 22 operator called you back to ask about guns? 23 A: I remember the guns. I thought it 24 was during the -- that first call when we made it at -- 25 that the operator had asked me that, but I guess it came

1 after. 2 Q: All right, fair enough. And if you 3 look at your documents binder and if you would look at 4 Tab 1. This is a document, Inquiry Document Number 5 1002953, it's a computer printout of Forest/Bosanquet 9- 6 1-1 calls from September 6, '95. 7 And you'll see near the bottom, there's a 8 registered notation of a call from Hank Veens, September 9 6, 1995 at 11:26:48 p.m. 10 Does that sound like about the time you 11 would have originated or initiated your call? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And if you would please -- perhaps 14 we'll make that the next exhibit. 15 THE REGISTRAR: P-159. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 159 17 18 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-159: Document 1002953, 9-1-1 Call from 19 Hank Veens September 06/95 20 23:26:49 P.m. Received by 21 Forest/Bosanquet 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: And if you would now look at Tab 2, 25 which is Inquiry Document 1002002, and it's entitled

1 "Central Ambulance Dispatch Details for September 6th, 2 1995", you'll see, and this is from the ambulance 3 dispatch, that the ambulance was notified at about 4 23:31:03 and then the call cancelled, in terms of the 5 ambulance, at 23:55:59 p.m. on September the 6th, 1995 6 which means that approximately twenty-five (25) minutes 7 lapsed as between the initiation of your call and the end 8 of it. 9 Does that sound like about right to you? 10 A: I would think so, yes. That sounds 11 close. 12 Q: Let's make that the next exhibit 13 then, please. 14 THE REGISTRAR: P-160. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-160. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-160: Document 1002002 Emergency Call 18 Narratives Between Hank Veens 19 and Ambulance Dispatch September 06/95 20 Notified 23:31:03 Hrs 21 Cancelled 23:55:59 Hours 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: All right. Now, did an ambulance 25 ever arrive at your residence, either that night or

1 September the 7th, in the morning? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did a police car ever arrive? 4 A: Not that night. A inspector came, I 5 think, a couple of days after the incidents. 6 Q: All right, thank you very much. 7 Those are my questions, Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 9 Ms. Vella. Does anybody intend to cross-examine this 10 witness? 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Five (5) to ten 12 (10) minutes, sir. 13 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Two (2) minutes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, let's 15 try do it before lunch then. Do you want to try and do 16 it before lunch? 17 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I am at your 18 disposal, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 Let's try and finish it. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, thank you. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think we should 24 finish it if we can. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you

1 very much. Mr. Rosenthal...? 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Mr. Orkin...? 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, I'm 4 sorry. Mr. Orkin's first. Doesn't matter? 5 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Doesn't matter. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Good afternoon, 10 Commissioner. Good afternoon. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 13 Q: I'm Peter Rosenthal. I'm 14 representing some of the people from Stoney Point and 15 Aazhoodena and George family, and I've lost my document, 16 excuse me a second. 17 Picking up from the end, Ms. Vella asked 18 you about the twenty-five (25) minutes and you said that 19 sounded about right. But you told us that you would have 20 expected ten (10) minutes at the outside for an ambulance 21 to get to your house; right? 22 A: I felt, yes. 23 Q: And according to the records, it 24 seems that it was about three (3) minutes from the 25 beginning of your call until they notified the

1 ambulance -- 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: -- and that still leaves twenty-two 4 (22) minutes before the ambulance was cancelled and it 5 didn't get to your house. 6 A: Yeah. Nobody -- nobody showed up, 7 nobody. 8 Q: Did you get the -- as you were 9 talking to the ambulance dispatcher, did you get the -- 10 any negative feeling about attending this call? 11 A: I -- I asked -- no, Carolyn kept 12 asking me, is the ambulance coming? And I asked the 13 ambulance and they kept assuring me it was coming. 14 The negative feeling that I got is after 15 the -- after the episode was -- was all done. 16 Q: So when you look back on it, after 17 the episode was done, you got a feeling that they weren't 18 so anxious to answer this call? 19 A: I had a feeling they weren't going to 20 come anyways. 21 Q: Thank you. Now, are you located 22 between Birnam and Brickyard Lines? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: So that is accurate? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And you told us that about a month 2 later, Pierre came to thank you for your assistance? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And he came knocking on your door to 5 thank you? 6 A: Yeah, it was -- actually I was 7 outside. It was a Sunday afternoon, midday, and, yes, he 8 just drove up the laneway and I -- I greeted him and we 9 just talked and he thanked me. 10 Q: Thank you. Well may I also thank you 11 for your assistance and for your testimony. Thank you 12 very much, sir. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 14 very much. Mr. Orkin...? 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 17 Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Veens. My name 18 is Andrew Orkin. I'm co-counsel to the Dudley George 19 Estate and the Sam George Family Group. I have just a 20 couple of questions for you. Along with the rest of the 21 people here I'm sure you listened quite carefully to the 22 -- to the tape that was just played. 23 From your own perspective listening to 24 that tape, do you gain an impression that there was or 25 was not an effort being made to get an ambulance to your

1 premises in -- in -- in any kind of forthright or 2 impressive way? 3 A: They didn't sound too excited. They 4 were just, I don't know, yeah, they weren't -- my 5 impression was things were just going through -- through 6 the motion. 7 Q: And listening to the tape with the 8 time frames that you had in mind which you testified 9 about, did you gain a sense from that tape that your 10 testimony may have been underestimating or overestimating 11 the amount of time that this all took in terms of the 12 delay? 13 A: It was go -- at that time I felt 14 fifteen (15) minutes, you know. My period of time with 15 the Georges but it may be a little longer. But I was 16 mostly on -- on the phone. 17 Q: Right. 18 A: The operator made sure I stayed on 19 the phone and -- and at the end, yeah, I handed the phone 20 over to my wife and I watched to see what was going on 21 with a cup of water. But they -- they were gone. 22 Q: Right. Could you remind me please, 23 how long it was in -- the sense you had that the -- the 24 vehicle from the point you heard it arriving at your -- 25 at your home to the point that it departed, how long

1 might that have been? 2 A: Well in -- in my sense just, you 3 know, just -- in my sense I felt, yeah, twenty (20), 4 twenty-five (25) minutes. 5 Q: So the car was perhaps on your 6 premises for -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- that amount of time? 9 A: In my sense, yes. 10 Q: Right. And during that time you were 11 mostly on the phone but you and your wife were taking 12 assistance outside, as best as you could? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Could you perhaps elaborate on what 15 it was that you saw in the car? 16 A: When they came up the laneway and 17 parked, I greeted them at the door and I just glanced at 18 the