1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 2nd, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein ) (np)       The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       ) (np)       George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    )            Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )   (np)       Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stoney
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Sue Freeborn     )   (np)
 25  Lynette D'Souza  )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (Np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 11  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 12  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 13  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 14  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 15  
 16  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 17  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 18  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 19  
 20  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 21  Karen Jones      )              Police Association &
 22  Debra Newell     )   (np)       K. Deane
 23  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
 24  Annie Leeks      )
 25

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )   (np)       Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )
  6  Clem Nabigon     )
  7  
  8  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
  9  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 10  
 11  William Horton   )              Chiefs of Ontario
 12  Matthew Horner   )   (np)
 13  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 14  
 15  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 16  Craig Mills      )
 17  Megan Mackey     )   (np)
 18  
 19  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 20  Anna Perschy     )
 21  Melissa Panjer   )   (np)
 22  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 23  
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 GLENN MORRIS GEORGE, Resumed 6 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 7 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 48 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 209 10 11 Certificate of Transcript 268 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 4 P-141 Photograph of Dudley George at 124 5 Stoney Point Beach 1993 Taken 6 by Glenn George 7 P-142 Document 2002693, June 14/93 8 London Free Press Article 9 "Maynard T. George Is Acclaimed 10 Chief" 132 11 12 P-143 Document 1003680 May 18/94 13 Sarnia Observer Article 133 14 "George Heads Stoney Point" 15 P-144 Document 2001976 April 18/'95 16 London Free Press Article 133 17 P-145 7"x11" "Stan" Thompson Drawing 18 September 20/'95, marked by 19 witness Glenn George, February 20 02/'05 207 21 P-146 Document 7000257, the Information, 22 containing the charges against 23 Glenn George 208 24 P-147 Document 7000301, Recognizance re 25 Glenn George dated July 6th, 1995. 208

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 11 GLENN MORRIS GEORGE, Resumed: 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 14 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 15 A: Good morning. 16 Q: My name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson and 17 I'm here to ask you some questions on behalf of the OPP. 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: I wonder if we could have Exhibit P- 20 40 up whenever Ms. Hensell is ready, thank you very much. 21 Mr. George, yesterday you spoke to us about the land mass 22 that you believe belongs to your people. And I want to 23 make sure that I'm clear as to what your view was in 1995 24 about that area. 25 So I'm asking you -- I suspect that your

1 view in 1995 is the same as it is in 2005, is that 2 correct? 3 A: I -- I've seen like the area closer 4 to the Fort Franks area being encroached upon. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: That's -- that's the thing that we 7 noticed that in '95 that -- 8 Q: Okay. We're going to get to that, 9 that's exactly what I was anticipating. So as I 10 understand your evidence, back in 1995, you regarding as 11 your land, the land belonging to your people, is the area 12 bounded by Lake Huron to what we're going to call the 13 north. 14 A: Yeah. This -- this is the area in 15 here that -- we've always had that understanding prior to 16 Outer Drive being built. 17 Q: Right. 18 A: Like Outer Drive might be twenty (20) 19 or so some odd years old. And that's the road that runs 20 this way from 21 Highway to the -- to the water's edge, 21 well almost to the water's edge. But it was after that - 22 - like '93 that we had moved in there, that we had 23 started to see how the encroachment was taking place in 24 there, in that area. 25 Q: All right. You -- you've anticipated

1 my next question which was: Back in 1993 and continuing 2 into 1995, you believed that those cottagers that 3 occupied the land, in that northeast corner, were 4 encroaching on your territory? 5 A: They -- that was already a done thing 6 that it was the ability to look down the hydro lines that 7 -- that were on the road and you could see cottages built 8 on the other side of those -- the line that they built on 9 the road. 10 And that's what -- when everybody started 11 noticing all of these different changes to the land, that 12 -- that these were the things that, you know, was a -- it 13 was a thing that if you -- if you weren't going to do 14 something, you know, like, there -- it was all going to 15 be developed with or without you. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: And that's -- that's where the people 18 that -- that moved into the -- into the Military Camp had 19 that -- all understood that, you know, that they -- they 20 shared that view, eh? 21 Q: All right. And I also understand, 22 sir, that the area that is bordered on the west by Army 23 Camp Road -- see the Army Camp Road on the western side 24 of -- of the land mass? 25 A: Along here?

1 Q: Right. 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: You believed that the area east of 4 that, towards Outer Drive, belonged to your people; 5 correct? 6 A: Yeah. This -- this whole area right 7 here. 8 Q: Thank you. And for the purposes of 9 the record Mr. George is outlining the entire man -- land 10 mass, excuse me, bordered by Highway 21, Army Camp Road, 11 Outer Drive and Lake Huron. 12 Now, what I'm interesting in confirming, 13 Mr. George, is that in 1995, I understand that you also 14 maintained -- and I'm not here to challenge it, I want 15 you to understand that -- but you also maintained that 16 the area west of the Park along what we call East Parkway 17 Drive, also belonged to your people? 18 A: West, this area here? 19 Q: Yes, along the lake. 20 A: Those things there, that was, like, I 21 don't know how -- how you -- how you view it when a lot 22 of the Elders that -- that used to speak in the -- at 23 these Locatee meetings always spoke about, is there 24 relatives in -- in the other communities like Nawash, 25 like Walpole, like, all of them.

1 They all had the same thing whether they 2 were checkerboarded, meaning this land was theirs; that 3 land wasn't. This was theirs; that land wasn't. 4 And they all had that same thing happen to 5 them, like, the -- the neighbours from where our 6 territory met with the Nawash community was that they had 7 three (3) main land -- I wouldn't call them surrenders. 8 They -- they -- they put it right on their letterheads, 9 on -- on everything that belongs to them that there's 10 three (3) main dates of lands that were taken away from 11 them. 12 Q: Right. 13 A: And this is all, like, the -- the 14 common knowledge as to how, like if -- if you were to 15 look at the -- the treaty books on -- on the size of the 16 -- the lands that they had -- once had, and then you look 17 at what they got now, it's major changes. 18 Q: I understand. All right, let's go 19 back to my question. The area that runs west, from what 20 has been described by some as Ipperwash Provincial Park, 21 running along East Parkway Drive on Lake Huron, where all 22 those cottages are today -- 23 A: All of these cottages that are in 24 there? 25 Q: And running west, sir.

1 A: All -- all the way along here? 2 Q: No, sir, that's running south. I'm 3 referring to the area that runs west in the area towards 4 Raven's Wood. 5 A: In this area? 6 Q: That's right, sir. I trust it was 7 your position, back in 1995, that that area that I've 8 just identified, also belonged to your people? 9 A: That's a -- that's a question that -- 10 that you're going to find a lot of different answers to. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: I -- I think I shared with the people 13 here yesterday that West Ipperwash was, as my namesake 14 Maurice George, had lived on this land that was his land 15 and it's gone. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: I don't know how you want me to 18 explain, this is no different than right there? So, you 19 want -- you want the same answer to the -- to the 20 different question? Because that's what you're -- you're 21 basically implying to me that I have no ties to that land 22 on West Ipperwash because of what you're asking me about 23 this. 24 Q: No, sir. Mr. George, I want you to 25 listen really carefully because --

1 A: I listened carefully. I'm explaining 2 to you, to the best of my knowledge what you're asking 3 me. 4 Q: What I'm asking you is, I don't care 5 what anybody else believed, I'm interested in what you 6 believed. 7 A: I just told you. 8 Q: So the answer to my question, I 9 gather, is yes, you -- 10 A: If I -- if I was living in there, 11 then it would be mine, but I'm not living in. 12 Q: All right. Fair enough. 13 A: Okay? 14 Q: All right. That's -- that's the 15 answer I was looking for. 16 A: I'm called an occupier I guess, you 17 know what I mean? It's like occupying this place. Is 18 that what you want to hear? 19 Q: No, sir. 20 A: Oh, okay. 21 Q: No, all I want to hear is -- is what 22 was in your mind at the time, all right? In your mind 23 back in 1995 those cottages that sit on East Parkway 24 Drive, in your mind, they were encroaching on your land; 25 correct?

1 A: No. 2 Q: No? 3 A: That part was already done. We -- we 4 stuck to the -- to the Military because we've been like 5 sixty (60) years trying to put a face on these people as 6 to who was involved in physically taking the land; that's 7 what we were dealing with right there. All this other 8 stuff is somebody else's story, somebody else's belief. 9 I never had no belief of going after 10 cottages. If I wanted a cottage, I'd build it myself. 11 Q: Okay. When you spoke with the police 12 from time to time, in the summer of 1995, because I -- I 13 think it's pretty clear that indeed you did speak with 14 the police from time to time in the summer of 1995? 15 A: I -- I would like the rest of the 16 people in here to understand that I spoke with them long 17 before I moved over there. I -- I was a very active 18 person with the police and having fund raising activities 19 for -- for them to do whatever they wanted. 20 And I had a pretty good relationship with 21 them that -- you know, let's deal with that part first 22 before '95. Because I thought I made it pretty clear with 23 a lot of people that I was a pretty peaceful person. 24 Q: I understand. 25 A: And to me, like -- like when you --

1 when you ask questions like that, it -- it doesn't really 2 shed the light on -- on the fact that, you know, I used 3 to play hockey in this -- in this arena here raising 4 money with the OPP's that I got relatives that are OPP's, 5 that you know. I kind of understood that all of this 6 stuff was, you know, like it wasn't strangers amongst us. 7 Q: And I -- I don't take issue with that 8 at all, sir. 9 A: Okay. Do -- do you understand just 10 what I was trying to say? 11 Q: I do, sir. 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: What -- what I'm wanting to pin down 14 is that in order to educate the police officers with whom 15 you spoke in the summer of 1995, you told them the kinds 16 of things you've been telling us about the land that you 17 felt that belonged to your people. Would that be fair? 18 A: I would have to say yes because, you 19 know, it was a known fact. 20 Q: Okay. Exactly. And -- and that 21 doesn't surprise me. I just wanted to confirm that. 22 Yesterday, My Friend Mr. Worme took you to a statement by 23 a police officer named Stan Korosec and I -- I always 24 butcher that man's name. Korosec, I get the syllable in 25 the wrong place. All right, could Mr. George have the

1 book of materials placed in front of him, please? In 2 particular, Tab 8, the officer's -- fair enough. 3 Mr. George, could I ask you to turn to Tab 4 8? And fair to say, Mr. George, that you weren't very 5 happy about the way that the land that you believed and 6 still believe belong properly to your people, you weren't 7 very happy about all that had gone on ahead of you, as to 8 how that land was taken from your people? 9 A: I don't know if you're going to find 10 too many people that are very happy with it to this very 11 day. 12 Q: So the answer to your question is, 13 no, Ms. Tuck-Jackson, I wasn't very happy. 14 A: Don't put words in my mouth, I don't 15 need that. I'm just like anybody else. I had this 16 ability to, like, interpret what, you know, the old 17 people are saying just like their, you know, their 18 desires to actually go home, all of the above. 19 And as for however things like this 20 happened, I basically, you know, being forty-two (42) 21 years of age, some of these things took place I guess 22 within that time period of 1942 'til now. And I don't -- 23 I don't know all of the answers to those types of 24 questions as to -- you know. But I know what I heard and 25 what I heard is that, you know, that we come from a

1 pretty -- pretty big territory. 2 Q: Right. And you weren't happy about 3 the way that territory was taken from you? 4 A: My main concerns was the fact that I 5 had buried my father there in 1990 and that I wasn't 6 about to, you know, the -- like, allow whatever was going 7 on to basically, I guess, go on forever, type of thing. 8 It was -- it was a time in my life of major change. 9 That's kind of like where in '93 when the 10 people moved onto the land that, you know, it was -- it 11 was made really clear as to my intentions, knowing that 12 my -- my dad was buried there that, you know, these -- 13 these lands are going to remain sacred in that -- in that 14 aspect, eh? And that's the only thing that we -- we 15 stuck strictly to the -- the Military Camp. 16 I -- I might have heard, you know, like, 17 throughout time, that there -- there was these -- these 18 things that took place, like no -- no different than 19 other side of Highway 21, that's no different. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: They talked of all of those lands. 22 Q: You talked of all of those lands? 23 A: No, no, no. I mean Elders talked of 24 all of those lands. 25 Q: Thank you. All right. We know that

1 your people moved into the rifle range in May of 1993; 2 correct? 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: Sorry, you'll have to give us a 5 verbal answer. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: We know that they pushed on into the 8 built-up area of what is sometimes described as Camp 9 Ipperwash in July of 1995; correct? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And we know that a number of your 12 people pushed on further into an area that has been 13 described by some as Ipperwash Provincial Park, on 14 September 4th, 1995; correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And we've also heard evidence that 17 some of those people pushed even further and moved into 18 the parking lot, in that area just outside of the Park, 19 on September the 5th, 1995. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: You're aware of that? 22 A: Yeah. Yes. 23 Q: And I trust that you agreed with each 24 one of those decisions because you believe that your 25 people were entitled to all of that land?

1 A: I believe that's so but, you know, 2 it's like when -- when you list it like that it -- it 3 sounds like it -- it's like a -- a land claim thing, but 4 it -- it was viewed to the Elders as a -- 5 Q: Reclaiming. 6 A: -- repossession. 7 Q: I don't take issues with that. 8 A: The repo man give them an eviction 9 notice type of thing. 10 Q: All right. So, in effect, you had 11 evicted the people from the rifle range and when I say 12 you, I mean as a group. You had evicted anyone who might 13 be in the rifle range; correct? 14 A: I would have to say the whole Camp. 15 It wasn't just the rifle range. 16 Q: You've anticipated my next question. 17 You evicted people from the built-up area; correct? 18 A: I think that was done first. 19 Q: All right. 20 A: They served them first at the built- 21 up area. 22 Q: Fair enough. I understand. And then 23 you evicted the people from the Provincial Park; correct? 24 A: Not me, no. 25 Q: No, when I said "you," I'm talking

1 about a group of your -- 2 A: You're going to have to ask them. 3 Q: I think I've made my point, sir. I'm 4 going to move on. 5 A: I wasn't there. 6 Q: The fourth page in on the document 7 you have before you, sir, I anticipate that this officer, 8 Stan Korosec, will testify that right around the point 9 where a number of your people cut the chain to enter the 10 Park, he heard you say words to the effect that he should 11 tell all the people who lived west of the Park to Raven's 12 Wood that they will be taking that land next. 13 Do you recall saying that, sir? 14 A: No. 15 Q: You don't recall saying that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. Is it possible something like 18 that was said? 19 A: There was a lot of things being said 20 at that time and I wasn't -- I wasn't there where you're 21 talking about, the chains being cut. I was still in that 22 part of the marriage patch when those things were going 23 on and it was a -- it was like a thing of -- there was -- 24 there was police presence closer to the shoreline on -- 25 on that part of Matheson Drive.

1 Do you know where I'm talking? 2 Q: I do, sir. 3 A: That -- that area is probably right 4 in here where I was and -- 5 Q: And for the purposes of the record 6 you are pointing to that part of Matheson Drive -- 7 A: -- that -- 8 Q: -- that runs north/south -- 9 A: Korosec was down there -- 10 Q: -- at the lake. 11 A: See, like, I know what he looks like 12 and where I was, I was up here on the dunes so I could 13 watch what was going on there and what I could see going 14 on there and I couldn't see what was going on all the 15 time, like -- like to -- to see from right here where I 16 was on the dune, I was trying to keep an eye on what was 17 going on there and what was going on there because there 18 is a bench right there. 19 Q: And again you are -- you're pointing 20 to the area -- 21 A: It's -- 22 Q: -- on Exhibit P-40 right at the 23 Base -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- or the most southerly point of

1 Matheson -- 2 A: See the -- 3 Q: -- Road and beach, on the west side 4 of that street. 5 A: Yeah, on -- on this area right here 6 there was a bench and that's where the ones who you 7 listed there were talking with the police, right there. 8 And I remember when I was standing up here, that I seen 9 Larry Parks and he's the one that said to me, Glenn, have 10 you paid your fine yet? 11 And I says, Larry, come on over here and 12 get your fine. And he -- after he got the attention that 13 he was looking for he kind of shrugged up and kind of 14 tried to mix in with the rest of the police there, 15 because he come after me. 16 He wasn't looking for nobody else, he come 17 after me. And that's what I seen and that's my 18 understanding of what it is that went on. 19 Q: All right. So we have your evidence 20 that you did not say this to Officer Korosec. 21 A: I never said nothing to him. 22 Q: Thank you. I also anticipate, sir, 23 that we're going to hear from an officer by the name of 24 Mark Wright, and you knew Mark Wright back in 1995, I 25 understand, because you'd met with him on several

1 occasions; correct? 2 A: I wouldn't say several, I think -- 3 I'd say close to one (1) or two (2). 4 Q: I think actually it was two (2) as a 5 matter of fact. I'm going to get to that in a minute, 6 but -- 7 A: Well, let's keep them a little bit 8 more exact, too, because I know exactly what's going on 9 too. I was there and to me, I don't need to be, you 10 know, in a position where I want to share with this 11 Inquiry dealing with a shooting here, okay? 12 And whatever it is you feel is important, 13 is your business, eh? Like to me, I have views, too. 14 Q: Yes, sir. I appreciate that. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: I understand, sir, that at the 19 beginning of August you had two (2) meetings, which 20 included Mark Wright. One (1) meeting occurred very 21 shortly after the motor vehicle accident that we heard 22 about yesterday and a second meeting which is the one I 23 want to focus on for the moment, arose in relation to 24 executing an arrest warrant for Wade -- not Wade Jacklin, 25 Lincoln -- excuse me, Lincoln Jackson.

1 A: I wasn't there with any kind of 2 Lincoln Jackson, I -- 3 Q: No, no, no -- 4 A: -- I wasn't at a meeting about that. 5 I -- 6 Q: You don't recall -- 7 A: I can't recall -- 8 Q: All right. And it maybe because of 9 the passage of time that you can't recall that there was 10 a meeting involving yourself, Mark Wright and several 11 others that I'll get into in a minute, about the arrest 12 warrant for Cleve Lincoln Alexander and I'm quite certain 13 the last name is Jackson, but we'll get to that in a 14 minute. 15 And I anticipate that we're going to hear, 16 sir, that towards the end of the meeting you told officer 17 Wright that your people rightfully owned Matheson Drive, 18 Ipperwash Provincial Park and the farmer's field south of 19 the Army Base. Now first of all, do you recall saying 20 that to Officer Wright? 21 A: I don't recall a meeting where that 22 was brought up. I don't recall being at a meeting to 23 discuss Lincoln Jackson. Those things there could have, 24 you know, like to me I'm kind of -- it gets confusing 25 when, you know, like I myself at so many different times

1 where I had arrest warrants for myself. 2 Q: I'm not talking about arrest warrants 3 for you, sir. 4 A: And when you -- when you want to 5 bring up arrest warrants for somebody else, I -- I did 6 good to look after my own interest in that form. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: So to me I'm -- I'm basically telling 9 you that you're making it confusing to me when you're 10 asking about Lincoln Jackson or someone else. Because in 11 our culture, heads of family looks after their own family 12 and I don't recall meeting Mark Wright to talk about 13 Lincoln Jackson or I don't recall saying anything about 14 the perimeters of the camp. 15 Q: All right. Let's move on then to 16 communication. I anticipate that we're going to hear 17 from Officer Korosec, that on the early evening of 18 September the 4th, 1995, he overheard you in an exchange 19 with Bert Manning -- you're laughing but let me finish my 20 question, all right? 21 He overheard you, in an exchange with Bert 22 Manning, say that there was going to be no meeting with 23 the police. And just again to give you a context for 24 what I understand was this conversation, Bert Manning had 25 earlier spoken to the officer and he had agreed, that on

1 Tuesday the 5th at 10:00 a.m., there would be a meeting 2 between members of your community and the police before 3 there was actually movement into the Park for the 4 purposes of a re-possession. 5 A: I don't recall any meetings with Bert 6 Manning with the police. I don't recall any kind of a -- 7 like meetings where they were to come to the rest of the 8 people and acknowledge anybody to attend the meetings 9 that they were hosting. 10 Like to me, I don't -- I don't recall Bert 11 Manning ever coming to me and asking me to attend a 12 meeting with him. A lot of times those -- that family 13 made their own meetings and they held their own 14 discussions. 15 Q: And that may have actually occurred, 16 what -- what I'm getting at, sir, is that when you 17 learned -- this is what I anticipate the evidence will 18 be. When you learned that Bert Manning -- and he may 19 have done it on his own without consulting anybody else, 20 when you learned that he had agreed to a meeting with the 21 police, you said to him, in Officer Korosec's presence, 22 there'll be no meeting. 23 Do you recall that, on the early evening 24 of September 4th? 25 A: No. I don't ever remember discussing

1 anything -- any kind of meetings with the police with 2 Bert Manning. It never happened. 3 Q: And would it be fair -- would it be 4 fair to say, sir, that by September the 4th, you had 5 absolutely no interest in speaking with the police about 6 the repossession issue? 7 A: I never talked about any kind of 8 repossession issue with the police. I think -- 9 Q: No, that's not my question, Mr. 10 George. My question, sir, was -- was it your position 11 that you had no desire to meet with the police? Because 12 as far as you were concerned there was nothing to discuss 13 about the repossession of the Park. 14 A: Well that's another question. You -- 15 you tried to ask me that I was at a meeting with Bert 16 Manning, and I -- and I said, no. And then you -- you 17 further that -- that question to me about repossessions. 18 I -- I didn't -- I didn't have no discussion with this 19 police officer. 20 Q: I understand that, sir. I want you-- 21 A: And if he overheard me, I don't know 22 if I ever spoke to him, I usually spoke directly to 23 people. I didn't -- I didn't make it so that everybody, 24 you know, in a police force was going to hear me. If 25 they were right there in person I usually went up to them

1 and talked to them in person. 2 Q: Okay. This is my question. By the 3 evening of September the 4th, was it your position that 4 you had no desire to speak to the police on the issue of 5 repossessing the Park? 6 A: I didn't know that was, you know, the 7 -- the topic of the day. If that was, well, I don't know 8 who these police are that you're talking about that, you 9 know -- What are you saying? 10 Q: I'm asking you, sir, what was in your 11 mind, whether or not you had any interest in talking to 12 the police on the night of the 4th about the issue of 13 repossessing that Park? 14 A: There's -- like, I -- I remember 15 seeing Mark Wright and Marg Eve. 16 Q: We're going to get to that in a 17 minute. 18 A: And I -- I -- 19 Q: I'm not asking about that, sir, I'm 20 asking about -- 21 A: I never -- I never made it an issue 22 to talk about repossessions of anything with anybody. 23 Q: Because for you it wasn't up for 24 discussion? Is that what you're telling us? 25 A: This is a thing that was -- there was

1 an eerie feeling in the air during this time and what 2 you're asking is if I was going to go around and ask if 3 there was repossessions that were going to take place 4 here, there and everywhere? No, I -- I had no knowledge 5 of what you're talking about. 6 Q: All right. I think I'm going to move 7 on. I want to take you to some evidence that we've heard 8 from Roderick George in November of this -- of last year, 9 because I -- I have to say when I read Officer Korosec's 10 statement, I wasn't terribly surprised by it when I then 11 heard Roderick George's evidence. 12 I want to read that to you if I can. And 13 for the benefit of my Friends and Mr. Commissioner, I'm 14 referring to the transcript of November the 23rd, 2004, 15 and I will begin at page 134. 16 And Roderick George was testifying at that 17 time about seeing officers at the fence line wanting, it 18 would appear, to open up some type of a dialogue with 19 those people who had repossessed the Park area and he 20 wasn't sure whether what he described occurred on the 5th 21 or the 6th, so that on the day of Dudley George's 22 shooting or the day before. All right? But he did 23 indicate the following, that it was along the fence line 24 above the sandy parking lot and at page 35 commencing at 25 line 3, he had the following to say:

1 "Well, I pulled up there and there was, 2 I think it was Glenn, and that Scott 3 guy and several others were there and 4 they say, I don't know, who's that guy 5 standing at the fence line? He said, 6 Oh, he's, like, a guy called Mark 7 Wright and another officer was a 8 woman." 9 Dropping down to page 136. Question by 10 Commission Counsel commencing at line twelve: 11 "And so Glenn George and who else? 12 Scott -- Scott was --" 13 Answer: 14 "Scott was there, yeah." 15 Dropping down to line 21. 16 "Q: So Glenn pointed out the police 17 officer -- two (2) police officers and 18 referred to one (1) as Mark Wright? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And what -- what -- after he's 21 pointed out one (1) of the police 22 officers was Mark Wright, what 23 happened? 24 A: I just asked him who -- who they 25 were, why were they here and said

1 something, I believe it's, He wants to 2 talk to somebody." 3 So what appears, Mr. George, is that 4 Roderick George was conveying to us this conversation 5 that he was having with you. All right? I'm going to 6 continue. 7 "Q: Glenn. Glenn George told you that 8 the police officer wanted to talk to 9 someone? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A: And he goes, meaning you, he goes, 13 you go talk. I don't want to talk to 14 him. I don't want to talk to no police 15 officers. 16 Q: So Glenn said that he didn't want 17 to. Glenn said -- 18 A: No, he didn't want to. He asked me 19 if I wanted to go talk to them. I 20 said, I don't want to talk to them, so 21 I ended up going over anyways just to 22 tell them to politely 'F' off." 23 That's the testimony that Roderick George 24 gave in relation to what seems to be the same incident 25 that you described yesterday on the afternoon before

1 Dudley George was shot. Do you recall having that 2 conversation with Roderick George? 3 A: I seen him there. But I don't 4 remember getting into a big discussion over that. Simply 5 because I myself went over and talked with Mark Wright. 6 And that was like a real basically two (2) second 7 conversation where he introduced this Marg Eve as a 8 negotiator; that's all he basically said. 9 And my response to them was I was kind of 10 hoping for a third party tribunal to them to -- to deal 11 with the land issue. And they said that they don't 12 negotiate that and that was the end of the discussion. 13 As for talking with Judas, I don't remember getting into 14 a big discussion about who wanted to go and talk to them 15 or not. 16 Because to me it wasn't -- it wasn't in 17 the -- the air of the -- of that time for me to even -- 18 what would you want to talk to them about? I wasn't 19 there to talk about, you know, like repossessions of 20 land. No, that -- that wasn't the topic. 21 Q: So the bottom line was that you 22 really didn't see any point opening up a dialogue with 23 the police at that point? 24 A: To me, my attempts to create a 25 dialogue go further back, go back to '93 and that, you

1 know, I made it clear that, you know, the Elders and 2 myself witnessed, you know, the asking of them to, you 3 know, to come there with no uniform, no sidearm and that 4 we could have a discussion where if there were things 5 that were, you know, concerns of cottagers or whatever, 6 then those things would have been tabled then; not at 7 that time. 8 At that time it seemed like it was a 9 little too late to try and explain actions of those 10 people. Like, I -- I was there just like them and to me 11 I was only in there after that -- that part of -- they 12 were in there. They already anchored in there. I never 13 partook in that part. 14 Q: You -- you played no role in going 15 into the Park, that's your evidence? 16 A: I witnessed some of the entry, that's 17 it. I -- my -- my feeling to that was just like Larry 18 Park (phonetic) stated to me that, you know, did you pay 19 your fine and I didn't have no money to pay my fine so I 20 reluctantly stayed inside the camp. 21 Q: I understand -- excuse me, I 22 anticipate, sir, that Mark Wright is going to testify 23 that he made two (2) attempts to try and speak with the 24 people who were, as you put it, repossessing the Park. I 25 anticipate we're going to hear that he made an attempt on

1 the Tuesday at 12 noon and that again he made the second 2 attempt on the Wednesday afternoon at three o'clock. 3 And I further anticipate that we're going 4 to hear that on each occasion, he specifically asked to 5 talk to you. Does that -- 6 A: That might be so. I don't know. 7 What he says and does is his business. 8 Q: You're quite correct, sir. What I 9 wanted to ask you was that had anyone let you know that 10 Mark Wright had asked for you; and I trust the answer is 11 no. 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. I anticipate, sir, that we're 14 going to hear that Mark Wright never did get to see you 15 on the afternoon of the 6th and have a conversation with 16 you; that's why I'm curious about your account, as you've 17 claimed that you actually came up to the fence line. 18 Is it possible that you could have that 19 mistaken; that you didn't speak with them on the 6th at 20 the fence line? 21 A: I -- I remember talking to him and 22 that woman and like I said, it was, like, a two (2) 23 second conversation as to -- he introduced her as a 24 negotiator and I seen this uniform, which told me that 25 she wasn't a part of a third party tribunal that was

1 going to deal with any kind of a land -- as to what the 2 people were in the Park for and to me, you know, you can 3 say, hello. 4 Is that -- is that considered as, you 5 know, like, a -- an interview or a meeting or whatever? 6 Like, to me, I greet a lot of people on the street and on 7 the roads and -- and buildings or whatever and I try to 8 be polite and I sometimes, you know, greet people just 9 like they greet me and -- 10 Q: And -- 11 A: -- sometimes I -- I don't recall 12 getting into a big meeting with them. 13 Q: Oh, I'm not suggesting there was a -- 14 a meeting with them. You'd agree, sir, that Mark Wright 15 was not dressed in uniform? 16 A: I can't recall. I just -- I seen a 17 uniform. 18 Q: What -- what you've described, sir, 19 up to this point is Marg Eve being in uniform. I'm going 20 to suggest to you that Mark Wright was not dressed in 21 uniform. 22 A: I -- I can't remember that. I -- I 23 remember seeing a uniform, whether they both had them on 24 or not, I can't -- I can't remember. 25 Q: All right. Let's, then, move on to

1 the two (2) meetings that I understand Mark Wright and 2 Charlie Bowman were involved with you. And I anticipate, 3 sir, that we're going to hear that on August the 1st, so 4 not long after the takeover or the repossession of the 5 built-up area -- 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: -- and right after the motor vehicle 8 accident, there was a meeting at 4:30 p.m. on August the 9 1st at the main gate of the area previously described as 10 Camp Ipperwash and present was Officer Bowman, Mark 11 Wright, and George Speck and on behalf of those in the 12 built-up area there was Rose Manning and yourself and 13 someone by the name of Terry George. 14 Do you recall a meeting involving those 15 people? 16 A: No, I don't. 17 Q: Okay. This was the meeting where 18 there was discussion about setting up a Ride program near 19 the area. Does that help refresh your memory? 20 A: I'm pretty -- pretty sure that at 21 that time that you're talking about that I remember that 22 there was -- there was that issue of those -- those 23 people that were -- that were killed in that -- in that 24 car accident and that there -- there was a -- a statement 25 of a -- of a ten (10) day period that -- that was going

1 to be brought out and -- and I'm pretty positive that -- 2 that the talks of a -- of a Ride program were before that 3 event took place. So I'm kind of confused. I -- I don't 4 recall going to a meeting about setting up a Ride program 5 after that happened. 6 Q: After what happened? The -- 7 A: After those women -- the woman and 8 the -- and the man got killed in that car accident. 9 Q: So the Ride program meeting -- you 10 thought those discussions were before the accident 11 occurred? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I'm pretty sure they were. 15 Q: I understood from yesterday's 16 evidence, sir, that you said it had occurred after the 17 fact and that it was too much too late? 18 A: Possibly could have. I'm -- I'm kind 19 of stuck where -- I'm positive that it -- that meeting of 20 wanting to have the Ride program was before we even moved 21 into the Camp. 22 Q: Okay. There may have been several 23 meetings about Ride programs. 24 A: Meeting at the built-up area which 25 was on the 29th of July?

1 Q: Yes, sir. 2 A: I remember going in there on the 29th 3 of July and this happened. I can't remember if it was on 4 the 29th or the 30th. 5 It was right then, right close to that 6 time when all of this was going on, but it was people 7 that were inside the barracks area and at that time, I 8 was -- I was living still on the beach. 9 That's where my place where I was living. 10 I never moved into the -- into the barracks area until 11 about a week after, maybe two (2) weeks after. 12 I still stayed at the beach. I basically 13 -- through the Court, was told to stay away from the 14 built up area and me going to a meeting in -- in that 15 area of the barracks area where I was told to stay away 16 from, I'm having a hard time remembering if I actually 17 went in there, because I was told to stay out of there, 18 okay. 19 Q: Right. 20 A: And this -- this was an Order by the 21 Court that I was trying to abide by. 22 Q: Right. 23 A: And to me, I -- I seemed to be 24 getting pulled into a meeting here by a whole lot of 25 people that I -- I never had a chance to -- to go over

1 this statement or whatever it is that you have in front 2 of you, to view that for myself and I'm sharing with you 3 what I -- was going through my head at the time, because 4 to me, I remember bringing up that -- that issue of a 5 Ride Program in '93. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: Because that was a -- that was the 8 time of my -- my sober -- like I became sober on May 6th 9 of '93. 10 Q: I understand. 11 A: And that's the reasons. 12 Q: All I'm trying to do, sir, is I'm 13 trying to -- to provide you with some information that 14 might help refresh your memory. 15 I anticipate we're going to hear that 16 during that meeting, Rose Manning said things to the 17 effect that Matheson Drive and Ipperwash Park belonged to 18 your people and that they'd never given it up. 19 Does that help refresh your memory? 20 A: I can't recall Rose Manning saying 21 that. Like, to me, I -- I've heard Elders say a lot of 22 things but I -- I'm still kind of trying to find in my 23 memory if I was at this meeting or not and you're asking 24 me questions that -- to me, it's a -- it's a -- I -- I've 25 had the opportunity to hear several Elders speak on that

1 issue, that they didn't want to see, like, alcohol. 2 My mother was one of them. There's -- 3 there's a lot of things that come out of that before 4 which makes it kind of where -- when somebody -- somebody 5 loses a life, it was -- it was a thing that -- to me, I - 6 - I had to deal with several things at that time. 7 Q: I understand, sir. But let me give 8 you another piece of information. I understand that 9 during the course of this meeting, and I anticipate that 10 we'll hear this, there was a discussion about a lock on a 11 gate at Matheson Drive. 12 Does that refresh your recollection? 13 All right, you're -- you're -- 14 A: No. 15 Q: -- shaking your head. I anticipate, 16 sir, that we're going to hear that during the course of 17 this meeting, the police said to you that they had to 18 remain neutral to be able to respond to everyone's 19 concerns and problems, whether it was those expressed by 20 your community, those that lived up at the Kettle and 21 Stony Point reserve or those non-aboriginal people who 22 lived in the community. 23 And because of that, and because of the 24 need that they had to respond to all of them, they had to 25 remain as a neutral party.

1 Do you recall any of that type of 2 discussion? 3 A: No. 4 Q: But, again, you don't disagree that 5 in early August you -- you did meet with Mark Wright? 6 A: I can't recall offhand, like, like I 7 -- yeah, I've been going through my notes, too, but I 8 can't recall that, no. 9 Q: You were keeping notes of your 10 meetings or what was going on in July and August of 1995? 11 A: There is copies in -- in -- in the 12 camp, but I'm -- I'm talking about these -- these books 13 here that I've been -- I've been trying to find where and 14 when and what time I had met with him, because I 15 remember, like, yesterday, we were talking about Mr. 16 Smith that -- I never met him until the people moved into 17 the barracks and Mr. Wright, there, he is somewhere along 18 that same time frame that I -- I don't recall meeting him 19 until, I think, time around when that meeting at the 20 fence. 21 So, like, I -- I might have known him by, 22 like, an introduction, but I've never sat and talked with 23 him. I don't know why he was here or what -- his rank, 24 or whatever, that I -- I basically didn't know. 25 Q: All right.

1 A: All's I know is that -- that it was 2 always a confusing state that having family, first 3 cousins, OPP's , that you -- you -- you understood that 4 their dad was my uncle and you understood that they, 5 hopefully understood this whole area as to their 6 inheritance, too. 7 Q: I understand, Mr. George. 8 A: And those things were made confusing 9 when you would see someone like Mr. Wright or Ms. Eves 10 showing up and wanting to talk to these people who were 11 in here and were in the Park. There wasn't no -- it was 12 like a -- you -- you talk of continuity as to somehow 13 could we have a dialogue that we could see these first 14 cousins of ours face to face to try and share in-depth, 15 like what you're asking. 16 Q: All right. Well -- 17 A: And that was -- that was the strange 18 part to us. 19 Q: Let -- let me pick up on one (1) 20 thing, because I also anticipate that we're going to 21 hear, during this meeting on August the 1st, that there 22 was a discussion about involving officers such as Vince 23 George, Phil George, Luke George, about coming to talk 24 with the people at the built-up area, on an informal 25 basis?

1 A: I -- 2 Q: Do you remember that discussion? 3 A: No. What I -- I -- it's like right 4 now I'm -- I'm all ears, you know, like, to me those were 5 the types of things that if -- if they were -- if they 6 were there it would have kind of made it somehow easier 7 to explain, like what I'm trying to explain to you. 8 You -- you -- you asked me if I remember 9 Mark Wright and Marg Eve at -- at the -- the fence line 10 there. Well, yeah, I remember seeing them there. I 11 remember seeing pictures of them there. I remember 12 hearing on the new that the -- the kids were shining 13 mirrors at them and stuff like that. Well, yeah, I -- I 14 remember that part, but I don't remember getting into an 15 in-depth conversation with them. 16 I remember hearing the statement that Marg 17 Eve was a negotiator and, you know, it would have been 18 different if you were looking at your relatives that were 19 supposed to know the same history as the people in the 20 Park, as the people in the Camp have. 21 See, because that -- that whole issue of 22 the burial grounds affects them too, because that -- 23 that's their relatives, too. See, and -- and you see 24 this whole business being isolated where, you know, I 25 remember hearing those guys talk to me about when I was

1 in the -- in the -- in -- being arrested in -- in Forest 2 that it was all full of First Nation police officers that 3 are OPP's and they -- and they said -- I -- I heard the 4 statement that, Oh, twenty (20) years ago you would have 5 never seen this. 6 To me, twenty (20) years ago doesn't make 7 no difference, to me. Here it is where you've got all 8 these people who are your relatives that -- 9 Q: Mr. George, perhaps I can -- I can 10 interrupt. I just want to get you focussed on the one 11 (1) question. 12 Is it your evidence that during a meeting 13 with Mark Wright and Officer Bowman and Officer Speck, 14 that you did not discuss the potential involvement of 15 First Nations persons who were also OPP officers? Is 16 that your evidence or you -- you can't say one (1) way or 17 the other? 18 A: I -- I -- I'm positive that I made 19 that -- that type of statement in '93 or '94 and -- and 20 when these things took place it just seemed like it was 21 falling on deaf ears that there was this -- this fact 22 that, you know, that there was police officers that were 23 in -- wearing uniforms who are my relatives, my first 24 cousins, okay, thinking that if there was an issue 25 dealing with the -- the Park area meaning over there,

1 that they had this ability to bring forth these relatives 2 of mine with the badge and everything to speak on that 3 part. 4 See it -- it just alienated things worse 5 when they bring in somebody who claims to be a negotiator 6 and to me I would have understood that if there was a 7 third party tribunal that yeah, it might be made up with 8 some of these people who have descendants buried in that 9 Park. 10 Q: Okay. Let's -- 11 A: And this never happened. 12 Q: Let's move on to the second meeting 13 that I want to talk to you very briefly about. And I 14 understand it occurred on either August the 3rd or August 15 the 4th. I've seen two (2) different dates. 16 That I understand and I anticipate that 17 we're going to hear that you and Les Jewel were present 18 together for a meeting with Officer Wright, Officer 19 George Speck and an Officer Lickman (phonetic). 20 And that they met with you at the area 21 described as the Base? 22 A: I can't recall going to a meeting 23 with Russ or Les Jewel or any Jewels. 24 Q: All right. Then I -- I'm not going 25 to ask you any questions about that, sir, no further

1 questions about that. 2 You -- you were asked yesterday about your 3 meeting with John Carson, another officer with the OPP in 4 the summer of 1993 when you were as you've described, 5 doing your fund raising on Matheson Drive? 6 A: I don't -- I don't recall meeting 7 here. Like I've been put in meetings and -- and I'm 8 going to explain to you that I -- I was -- got a warrant 9 for my arrest and I don't recall meeting with -- Carson. 10 Q: Sir, you didn't have -- you didn't 11 have a warrant for your arrest I don't believe in -- in 12 July of 1993, right? 13 A: I just got done saying I -- I believe 14 I had one. I -- I need to see some kind of record here. 15 I -- because I had so many of those eh? 16 Q: Okay. I -- I anticipate, sir, you 17 recall the incident where Clifford George was charged 18 with -- with mischief for -- for asking people for money 19 in order to access the Park through Matheson Drive? 20 A: I -- yeah, I -- I understood that 21 part but what I remember is I -- I was with Ron George, 22 he was -- he was there that day in particular. Because I 23 remember he was the one that give me a ride down there 24 inside the -- the camp. 25 And -- and he drove down to there to

1 witness what was going on at Matheson Drive when they so 2 called had this toll booth there but it was -- I never 3 had a meeting. 4 Q: Sir, I anticipate -- I anticipate 5 we're going to hear from Officer Carson that on July the 6 16th he was speaking with you and Maynard T. George in 7 that area of Matheson Drive about toll collections. 8 And I anticipate that we're going to hear 9 that he was encouraging the two (2) of you to avoid 10 creating a confrontation with the police. 11 Do you have any recollection of any 12 exchange like that? 13 A: No. 14 Q: All right. And again, sir, it's -- 15 it's a long time ago and it's hard to ask you to recall 16 those kinds of details from such a long time ago. 17 A: Well I -- I remember with the help of 18 my pictures. I took pictures there. 19 Q: I understand. Sir, those are my 20 questions, thank you for your time. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 22 very much. We'll take a short break now. We'll take the 23 morning break. It's a bit early but I'd like to take a 24 break. 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess

1 for fifteen (15) minutes. 2 3 --- Upon recessing at 10:00 a.m. 4 --- Upon resuming at 10:18 a.m. 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 7 resumed. Please be seated. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much. Ms. Jones...? Good morning. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you, Mr. 11 Commissioner. Good morning. 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 14 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 15 A: Morning. 16 Q: My name's Karen Jones and I'm one of 17 the lawyers who represents the Ontario Provincial Police 18 Association. 19 A: Good morning. 20 Q: Mr. George, you had told us yesterday 21 about the entering into the Army camp on May the 6th of 22 1993. 23 When you got to the camp on May the 6th, 24 were there about ten (10) people that -- that were there, 25 staying the night? Do you remember?

1 A: On May 6th -- 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: -- I know that my two (2) nephews 4 were, from my understanding -- my mother -- my mother 5 told me when I got home from work that -- 6 Q: Sure -- 7 A: -- you're to go look after your 8 nephews. And when I got there, there was more than ten 9 (10) people. There was like fifty (50) people maybe -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- maybe more. 12 Q: But in terms of the people that 13 stayed overnight and camped out, were there about ten 14 (10) people that did that? 15 A: I would have to say more than that -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- maybe -- maybe twenty (20), maybe 18 more. 19 Q: Okay. And you told us yesterday that 20 the original camp that people stayed in was on one side 21 of the steel bridge along Highway 21 -- 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Do you remember that? I'm wondering, 24 could we have P-40 please? 25 I just wasn't sure, Mr. George, where the

1 steel bridge along Highway 21 was, and I'm wondering if 2 you could use that pointer that's in front of you and you 3 could show us where the original camp was? 4 A: I'm pretty sure it was on -- I think 5 this is the creek -- 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: It was on this side, in this area. 8 Q: Okay. And that's Mud Creek, is that 9 right? Is that what it's called? 10 A: I think Mud Creek is this other one-- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- this way. 13 Q: Okay. So just to be clear for the 14 record, you indicated with your pointer an area just 15 adjacent to Highway 21 that is on the east side and it is 16 east of the rifle ranges, is that right? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yeah, okay. And then you told us 19 that within a couple of weeks, people had moved onto the 20 range area. 21 Do you remember that? 22 A: Yeah, it was -- I think it was the 23 May 24 weekend -- 24 Q: Yeah -- 25 A: -- the long weekend.

1 Q: Right. And do you agree with me that 2 the range area was part of the training area at the time 3 for the Military? 4 A: I'm under -- my impression is the 5 whole area was training area. 6 Q: Okay. Do you know whether or not at 7 that time, the Military was using the range area? 8 A: I don't know, I -- 9 Q: You don't know? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. And we've heard some evidence 12 from other witnesses, and I just wanted to check with 13 you, Mr. George, was it your -- did you, or do you know 14 if anyone else of the people who occupied the Base on May 15 the 6th, did you or anyone that you know of that was 16 there, tell the Kettle Point Band that you were planning 17 that occupation? 18 A: I don't know. I -- 19 Q: You didn't? 20 A: No, I didn't know. No, I didn't tell 21 them -- 22 Q: Okay. And we also heard some 23 evidence previously, Mr. George, that that occupation was 24 not done with the approval of the Band or the Council. 25 Did you know about that?

1 A: No, I didn't. 2 Q: Okay. And we saw earlier a press 3 release that the Kettle and Stony Point Council had 4 issued on May the 7th of 1993 saying that the chief and 5 Council did not sanction the occupation of the camp. 6 Did you ever see that press release? 7 A: No, I never -- 8 Q: Did you ever hear from members of the 9 council or the chief of the Kettle and Stony Point Band 10 that they didn't approve or sanction the occupation? 11 A: There's a lot of things that come out 12 of their Council. I -- I remember hearing a press 13 release to Indian Affairs about finding a place for them 14 Georges somewhere up near Sudbury. I remember seeing 15 that. 16 Q: You don't remember seeing that press 17 release or hearing from the chief or the Council that 18 they didn't sanction the occupation? 19 A: I don't know of any. Like, I -- I 20 was still working for the Band at that time. 21 Q: Right. And we also heard earlier 22 that in 1980 the Federal Government had paid about $2.5 23 million to the Kettle and Stony Point Band as, at least, 24 partial compensation for the expropriation of the Base? 25 Were you aware of that payment?

1 A: I remember getting a thousand dollars 2 ($1,000). I don't know if it was in '81 or '85 or -- I 3 remember everybody was given a thousand dollars ($1,000). 4 It's -- 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: I -- I didn't -- I didn't read no 7 document or anything like that that was a -- that tied 8 any of that to the money. I -- I have no knowledge of 9 that. I'm -- I wasn't on Council. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: I don't remember seeing the Council 12 explaining in full any details of the thousand dollars 13 ($1,000) that they were paying. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: I'm just like anybody else that -- 16 that isn't part of the -- the Council. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: Because the -- the Council has, I 19 guess -- I don't know, those on file. 20 Q: Okay. So you knew nothing about the 21 $2.5 million or its distribution? 22 A: I just told you, I got a thousand 23 dollars ($1,000) -- 24 Q: One thousand dollars ($1,000). 25 A: -- just like everybody else, but I

1 never read no documents on it. 2 Q: One (1) of the documents, Mr. George, 3 that is in the document database that we've been given by 4 the Commission is a document that's entitled, "Resistance 5 at Stoney Point Continues." And for the assistance of 6 Counsel, it is at -- oh, I'm sorry, it doesn't seem to 7 have an Inquiry number here. 8 Let me tell you what it says. It is an 9 article that was on the native net and on the second page 10 -- and I'll read this to you and I'll see -- and then 11 I'll ask you some questions to see if you recall speaking 12 to the reporter. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is this 14 article in the materials that we have? I know it -- 15 MS. KAREN JONES: I don't -- in my 16 material I don't see it as being in the document 17 database. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 20 Q: It was one (1) of the documents that 21 we listed as being -- as referring to -- It says: 22 "In 1980 the Government took advantage 23 of this confusion and intensified it by 24 offering a compensation package of $2.4 25 million and a reiteration of the

55
  1                   promise for an eventual return of the
  2                   land to the Band.  To this date, the
  3                   DND continues to incorrectly refer to
  4                   these two (2) separate bands as the
  5                   Kettle and Stony Point Band."
  6  And it goes:
  7                   "This error may not be an oversight,
  8                   but a deliberate attempt at the age-old
  9                   imperialistic divide and conquer
 10                   routine by creating friction between
 11                   the two (2) bands.  The DND's
 12                   compensated -- compensation package
 13                   gained the approval of 80 percent of an
 14                   apparently very small number of Kettle
 15                   Point people attending that meeting."
 16  And then there's a quote from you.  It goes on:
 17                   "No Stoney Point people voted for
 18                   acceptance of the DND's offer and they
 19                   did not receive any of the compensation
 20                   money.  In fact, an earlier
 21                   compensation package of fifty thousand
 22                   dollars ($50,000.00) that was issued by
 23                   the Government in 1942 to assist in the
 24                   movement of Stoney Point people to the
 25                   Kettle Point reserve was

1 misappropriated by an Indian agent." 2 And it goes on a little bit and then there's another 3 quote from you that's saying: 4 "For some of the people pulled off the 5 land, it was like pulling their life 6 support systems because they lived off 7 the land, says Stoney Point Band 8 Councillor, Glenn George." 9 And I'm wondering if you recall having a 10 discussion regarding the compensation money and how it 11 was distributed? 12 A: I would like to know who -- who I was 13 supposedly having a conversation with because I -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: -- I need to -- 16 Q: It's an article that's dated March 17 the 17th, 1994 and it says it's by Alloz (phonetic) the 18 Activist. I don't know if that gives you any assistance 19 at all. 20 A: Alloz the Activist? 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: To my understanding I know there's -- 23 there's a -- there was a lot of things that were out and 24 about in that part of the issue of payments because I -- 25 I remember seeing a video where, at that time, the -- the

1 chief, Bonni Bressette, was on TV making a statement. 2 I think it was the Fifth Estate where 3 there was a million dollars held in trust from this 4 agreement and I still to this very day, I don't really 5 know the complete particulars of what took place. 6 I just told you, I remember I got a 7 thousand dollars ($1,000). To me, I know that there was 8 other monies that -- that were seen to have been put on 9 paper with the numbers and the zeros and the dollar 10 signs. 11 But I don't remember ever hearing from my 12 dad as to what he ever received out of that, because he - 13 - he always spoke on the part of -- there was -- there 14 was houses that were basically uprooted and moved. 15 Some of the houses were uprooted and fell 16 apart and the way he viewed it to me was, you know, you 17 can uproot those things, you can uproot a tree and if you 18 don't water it when you go to replant it, it just 19 basically dies. 20 So I don't -- see -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- I don't know if the dollar sign is 23 a -- is a remedy or not, like. 24 Q: Okay. And just so I understand what 25 you said earlier, Mr. George, your view was you told us

1 that you got a thousand dollars ($1,000)? 2 A: Hmm hmm. 3 Q: And you got it in 1995? Is that what 4 you said? 5 A: No, no, no. I think it was '85, I 6 said. 7 Q: Sorry, 1985. 8 A: I think so. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: I don't really know offhand. I think 11 it was '85 that -- 12 Q: Okay, okay. 'Cause I wanted to refer 13 back to the Kettle and Stony Point Council press release, 14 and for the assistance of Counsel that's 7000132. This 15 is again the press release that was issued by the Kettle 16 and Stony Point Council on May the 7th, 1993. 17 And you'll see if we go down the page just 18 a little bit, it says: 19 "The Chief and Council would like to 20 clarify the following issues as well," 21 And under Point 1: 22 "Equal distribution payments were made 23 to every man, woman and child who was 24 eligible at the time when the 25 compensation payments were handed out

1 in 1980, and clearly --" 2 A: There you go, it is 1980. 3 Q: "And clearly identifiable records are 4 available for review". 5 Is that the -- the records that you're 6 talking about that had dollar figures and numbers 7 attached to names? 8 A: That's not the -- the information 9 that I was talking about. The information that I -- I 10 had seen was -- were listed the houses back in 1942 -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- that were being moved and the 13 amount of monies that they were paying for labour to 14 uproot the houses and move them. That's -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- this is 1980. This is a different 17 thing here, that -- that I -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: This is my first time actually seeing 20 this letter. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Like I -- I remember getting a 23 thousand dollars ($1,000) and like I remember the -- the 24 meeting was at the ball Park and there was a lot of 25 people at the ball Park that -- you know, some thought it

1 was good and some had their different opinions. 2 Q: Okay. And I think you've given some 3 evidence yesterday about when you first occupied the 4 Base, that is in May of 1993. 5 I think you told us that you don't recall 6 being told by anyone from the Military that you were 7 trespassing or that you ought not to be there. 8 Is that -- do you recall that? 9 A: When I got there, there was just my 10 relatives and some of the old people and their kids and 11 their grand kids, that's -- there wasn't no Military 12 people around when I got there. It was later on and 13 towards the evening time when -- when I got there, like 14 after work, eh? 15 Q: Okay. I want to ask you then, over 16 the course of May of 1993, did you receive or did any of 17 the occupiers so far as you know, receive a letter from 18 the Military saying that you had been given a verbal 19 warning, that you were trespassing and the letter also 20 said that you're being told to leave and take all your 21 personal possessions. 22 Do you recall that? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. I'm just wondering if we can 25 put that document up on the screen and maybe that would

1 assist you in terms of whether or not you've seen that. 2 MS. KAREN JONES: And Mr. Commissioner, 3 I'm referring to the Inquiry Document Number 7000283. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 6 Q: And you'll see that's a letter, Mr. 7 George, signed by Captain Dodson dated May 15th, 1993 8 saying number 1, that the Department of National Defence 9 is the legal title holder for the lands known as Camp 10 Ipperwash. 11 And second, having been given a verbal 12 warning that you were trespassing on Department of 13 National Defence property. And I just wanted to stop 14 there. 15 Were you told that you were given a 16 verbal warning that you were trespassing? 17 A: No, I wasn't. 18 Q: Okay. Do you know of did you have 19 information if any of the other occupiers were told that 20 they were trespassing on Department of National Defence 21 property? 22 A: I remember hearing them talk about 23 that. Like at the Camp on -- on that side of the creek 24 there, I was still at work, eh. I -- the next -- I 25 worked -- I worked til about May 24 weekend --

1 Q: Okay. 2 A: --- for the Council at Kettle Point 3 doing a sewer project that they had and I was arriving 4 towards the evenings over there and I used to hear the 5 things that were being told to those people that were 6 there during the day. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: I used to leave in the morning to go 9 to work and come back after work to -- to the Camp site 10 there and I remember hearing them say that they -- they 11 were at that time talking of being told they were 12 trespassing. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: And -- and I remember at that same 15 time they -- they were -- they were going over old 16 documents about how they were going to use the system. 17 Meaning they -- they had a peace agreement -- I can't 18 remember which one it was whether it was the Treaty of 19 Ghent or there -- there was another peace agreement that 20 -- that listed in there that they -- they were just in 21 what they were doing because they -- they had used a 22 bailiff who was a league subject to serve these people 23 with an eviction notice. And -- 24 Q: I'm sorry, just to interrupt, that 25 bailiff was Scott Ewart?

1 A: Scott Ewart. 2 Q: Okay. And he was someone who was 3 retained by the occupiers to serve papers on the 4 Military? 5 A: I -- 6 Q: Or he did that for you? He did that 7 for the occupiers? 8 A: I really don't know. I -- I know 9 that he was acting on behalf of the people of Stoney 10 Point Aazhoodena. I don't if the term occupiers was who 11 he was retained by or -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- I never -- I never was present to 14 -- to witness him being retained. It's like this letter 15 here, I wasn't there when that hap -- when that was 16 delivered. Like I heard of it. 17 Q: Okay. Okay. You just heard about 18 it. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. And at that point in time as I 21 understand, the -- and when I -- I want to -- I want to 22 see if I can use language that hits the spot a little 23 bit. Just so you know over the course of the Inquiry to 24 date often, that people who were in the basin in the Park 25 have been referred to as occupiers. But if there's

1 another term that makes more sense to you, I'll try to 2 use that. 3 So if the Stoney Point people is better 4 language for you? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: Is that -- is that language -- that 7 that would be better? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. So at or about that time that 10 is in May or the summer of 1993, I understand that the 11 Stoney Point group had also retained Tony Ross to 12 represent them? 13 Did you know about that? 14 A: I -- I'm not sure on dates. I think 15 it was more around June maybe. 16 Q: Around June of 1993? 17 A: I think it might have been at the end 18 of May, 1st of June, I don't -- I have I think some of 19 the documentation at home but I -- I don't think I can 20 remember right off hand. 21 Q: Okay. And I wanted to move on then 22 into the summer of 1993. You were asked some questions 23 yesterday about the helicopter shooting. And I 24 understand that you were on the Base that night -- 25 A: Hmm hmm, yes.

1 Q: -- and you told us that you were 2 attending to a fire that night? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And there was -- there was a 5 couple of things I wanted to ask you about that. One of 6 the documents that we've been given by the Commission is 7 a document that describes an interview with Cleve 8 Jackson. 9 Do you know him? 10 A: I know Cleve Jackson. 11 Q: Okay. And in that interview -- and 12 that's at -- for the assistance of Counsel, that is the 13 Inquiry Document Number 2004137. 14 One (1) of the things he says in that 15 document is that on the night of August the 23rd, that is 16 the night of the helicopter shooting, that you were -- 17 you were -- you were on the Base and you were attending a 18 ceremony feast for Cleve's dead mother. 19 Do you recall attending that? If you 20 think back a little bit? 21 A: This is August 23rd? 22 Q: August 23rd, 1993. 23 A: August 23rd -- I'm -- I'm not quite 24 sure. Is this a -- is this -- is there such a thing as a 25 Cleve, Jr.?

1 Q: Well, let me just go through this a 2 little bit with you and see if we can make sense of this. 3 It's an interview with a Cleve Lincoln Jackson. 4 A: Cleve Lincoln Jackson? 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: I -- 7 Q: And he gives his date of birth in the 8 interview, but it's been blacked out so we can't see it 9 so I can't help you if he's the younger or the older. 10 A: Oh, you just -- you just explained 11 that. Like, Cleve Jackson is -- is his father and Cleve 12 Lincoln Jackson is -- he -- he goes by, "Lincoln." 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: Yeah, I -- I don't remember the 15 feast, but I do remember arriving at an accident scene 16 where I helped pull the van off of his mother. Yeah. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: I remember that, but I -- I don't 19 remember attending a feast. 20 Q: Okay. And -- and I just -- I'll just 21 read you a little bit of an excerpt from this statement 22 and I'll just see if that helps refresh your memory a 23 bit. Maybe you recall it and maybe you don't, or maybe 24 you disagree. I don't know, but I just want to try to 25 put a little context in it for you.

1 He says -- there's a question asked: 2 "So, on the night of the helicopter 3 shooting you're having a ceremony for 4 your deceased mother and this was held 5 at the Camp?" 6 And what the response is: 7 "In the Georges' Camp. There was Abe's 8 trailer, Cliff -- I believe Cliff 9 George's trailer was around there. 10 Dave wasn't too far away. I really 11 can't recall, there were at least five 12 (5) trailers in the vicinity of --" 13 And then there's a question: 14 "Okay, do you recall who was there? Or 15 whoever you can recall, first and last 16 names, that might have been in the Camp 17 that night?" 18 And what he says is: 19 "My aunt, Joanne Jackson; my aunt, Jane 20 Manning --" 21 And there's some other inaudible things, 22 and then he says: 23 "And, like, Dave was around. He wasn't 24 participating. A lot of people weren't 25 participating, like, Glenn George was

1 there." 2 So, I wonder if that helps you a little 3 bit to put your mind back to -- 4 A: I -- I don't really recall that, but 5 I know if there was a -- a ceremony where people needed 6 help, I usually helped out; that was my nature. I 7 didn't -- 8 Q: Sure. 9 A: -- I didn't leave, you know, people 10 where if they needed help, I generally helped them. 11 Q: Okay. And I just -- you had talked a 12 little bit about timing yesterday; that is, when the 13 helicopters or helicopter was often flying over and you 14 said it was often at two o'clock in the morning? 15 A: The -- the -- 16 Q: Yeah. 17 A: -- first experience that I had was at 18 -- 2:00 in the morning and -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: -- I'm positive there was three (3) 21 to four (4) other times, maybe -- maybe two (2) to three 22 (3), maybe four (4) to five (5). I don't know for sure, 23 but I know that they were all at -- at -- around two 24 o'clock. 25 Q: Okay. Because I anticipate that

1 we're going to hear evidence that on the night of August 2 23rd, 1993, the night of the helicopter shooting, that 3 the helicopter was flying over the Camp and it was at 4 about 10:23 at night. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Yeah. 7 A: Right. 8 Q: Okay. And I anticipate we're going 9 to hear evidence that a light was shining from the 10 helicopter onto the ground. 11 Do you remember that? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Lighting up the area? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And that the helicopter's floodlights 16 were turned off; that is, it went dark and almost 17 immediately after that, the helicopter was lit up from 18 spotlights in the Camp. 19 Do you recall that? People shining their 20 spotlights on the helicopter? 21 A: I think they shined the lights on the 22 helicopter before the lights come on the helicopter. I'm 23 -- I'm pretty positive of that. 24 Q: Okay, okay. So the helicopter was 25 lit up from the spotlights in the Camp?

1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: Not a helicopter, helicopters. There 4 was about four (4) of them. 5 Q: On the night of August 23rd, you're 6 saying -- 7 A: Every night there -- they didn't come 8 with one (1), there was always four (4). 9 Q: Okay. I want you to think really 10 carefully, because I anticipate the evidence is going to 11 be there was one (1) helicopter that night. 12 A: No, there was never one (1) -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: There was always four (4). They 15 always came -- 16 Q: You're saying -- 17 A: -- in four (4) -- 18 Q: -- there were four (4) -- four (4) 19 helicopters that night? 20 A: All the times that I seen the 21 helicopters -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- come there, there was always four 24 (4). 25 Q: Okay. And I wanted to then move on

71
  1  to the winter of 1993 and 1994.  Because we've heard some
  2  evidence previously that on February the 22nd, 1994, the
  3  government announced that the closure and return of Camp
  4  Ipperwash to the Band, that is the Kettle and Stony Point
  5  Band was part of the 1994 budget.  
  6                 Did you hear that?  Are you aware of that?
  7                 A:   I remember hearing them list
  8  closures, yeah.  I remember hearing that.
  9                 Q:   Okay.  And we've heard some evidence
 10  previously that the government would only negotiate with
 11  the Kettle and Stony Point Band about the return of the
 12  Base.
 13                 A:   I --
 14                 Q:   Was that something that you were
 15  aware of at the time?
 16                 A:   I think I heard that, yeah.
 17                 Q:   Okay.  And I take it your view at the
 18  time was that the Stoney Point people ought to be
 19  involved in the negotiations for the return of that land;
 20  that is, the Base.
 21                 A:   I, myself had that understanding that
 22  ever since 1942 that they themselves had wanted to, you
 23  know, talk about the return of their community.  Not
 24  somebody else.  Not -- no geographical different place or
 25  community.

1 Q: Okay. And in your view at the time, 2 could the Kettle and Stony Point Band negotiate about the 3 return of the land on behalf of the Stoney Point people? 4 A: I, myself by the help of my Mom and 5 my Dad were always under that impression that, like, the 6 land claims themselves were basically kind of like 7 treated as whoever had the time and energy would -- if 8 that's what they wanted to do, basically, then they would 9 do it. 10 It's no different than the West Ipperwash 11 land which belonged to my grandfather Morris George that 12 my Mother's side of the family, she -- she had always 13 been active in that role of trying to reclaim those lost 14 lands. 15 And that my dad had the similar -- similar 16 story as to being uprooted at the age of twenty-one (21) 17 from the Stoney Point lands that -- that was just another 18 creation of a -- of a thing that my dad had to live 19 through as being viewed as a -- basically a -- what do 20 you call those where people are moved from one place to 21 another without any kind of knowledge or -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- planning? It was -- 24 Q: But -- but to get back to my 25 question. At that time, were you content with the Kettle

73
  1  and Stony Point Band negotiating the return of the Base,
  2  or was it your view that the Stoney Point people ought to
  3  be doing that negotiating?
  4                 A:   See, to me, my understanding is I
  5  never got chance to finish there.  Right from 1942, right
  6  on up to -- to where we actually physically had to move
  7  onto the land, that's where the decisions came a lot
  8  clearer, that you could always get people that would want
  9  to try and negotiate these things to physically see it
 10  put on paper and then wawauna (phonetic), wawauna
 11  beaujour (phonetic) is -- is you're going to make it
 12  real.
 13                 That's what come out in our language is
 14  wawauna, you're going to make it real, you had to
 15  physically move there.
 16                 And that was how the term, where our
 17  Elders would being our witnesses, that we were basically
 18  the ones that were uprooted, were the ones that were
 19  basically telling us that those lands were private
 20  property and not viewed as communal lands that -- that
 21  council has -- had that view that they were communal
 22  lands that -- that they were to make decisions on it.
 23                 Q:   Okay.  Let me -- let me just stop you
 24  there so I understand.  Those lands were private
 25  property, that means the -- the land at the Base was

1 private property -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- for the Stoney Point people. 4 A: The ones that were uprooted were the 5 -- were the ones that had that I guess challenge before 6 them to move there. 7 Q: Okay. So it wasn't something that 8 was for the Kettle and Stony Point Band to make a 9 decision about? It was for the Stoney Point people to 10 make a decision about? 11 A: I'm -- I'm sharing with you the time 12 frame of -- 13 Q: Right. 14 A: -- from 1942 to the time that they 15 moved in there, it was a collective thing. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: That it was a job that all of the 18 people tried to get the land back because of the 19 circumstances at hand that exists this very day, where 20 you have people that basically are imposing upon another 21 group of people. And that's what we are dealing with -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- today where there's a group of 24 people that have been imposed upon and there's a group of 25 people that have been basically uprooted.

1 Q: Right. 2 A: And that was the -- the remedy that 3 they had sought after, was to basically move home without 4 disrupting, you know, the -- the reserve at Kettle Point. 5 Q: Okay. So once -- once the Stoney 6 Point group moved onto the land, at that point in time 7 was it -- and by moving onto the land I mean moving onto 8 the Base. 9 Once they took that step and it was 10 private land, was it really their dispute with the 11 government to get that land back? 12 A: That's who had basically uprooted 13 them, yes. 14 Q: Okay. And you were asked some 15 questions yesterday about your role as a councillor and a 16 chief. And I wasn't sure I understood some of your 17 evidence, so I just wanted to go back briefly to a 18 couple of things about that. 19 I understand that in June of 1993, there 20 was an election among the Stoney Point group and that 21 Maynard T. George was acclaimed as the chief of the 22 Stoney Point First Nation. 23 And you were one of the councillors that 24 was elected; is that right? 25 A: Here we go again, day 2. I had no

1 involvement of -- of the election. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I know I heard that Carl was the one 4 that was elected. 5 Q: I'm talking about 1993 and maybe I 6 can give you some assistance here, Mr. George. 7 A: That's what I mean, 1993. 8 Q: Yeah. 9 A: I'm pretty sure that Maynard and 10 Carl, I -- I forget, there was someone else that -- that 11 was having this election and -- 12 Q: Okay. If you wait for one minute, 13 I'm going to see if we can get a document put on the 14 screen and see if that helps a little bit, okay? And 15 it's the document of the Commission, 2002693. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 And if we can go down to the bottom of 20 that page you'll see an article and this is from the 21 London Free Press dated June 14, 1993. It says: 22 "Maynard T. George is acclaimed chief." 23 And if we look at the paragraphs below 24 that, it says: 25 "Maynard T. George was acclaimed

77
  1                   Saturday as the chief of the Stoney
  2                   Point First Nation.  Elected to council
  3                   in the first election the Band has had
  4                   were, Glenn George, Dean Cloud, Janet
  5                   Cloud, Carmen Roger Sr., Clifford
  6                   George and Bert Manning.
  7                 Now do you recall the election in the
  8  summer of 1993, where Maynard George was acclaimed chief
  9  and you were one of the councillors that was elected?
 10                 A:   I -- I don't remember even taking
 11  part in the election.  
 12                 Q:   The question to you is, do you
 13  remember that you were a councillor?  You were elected a
 14  councillor in the summer of 1993?
 15                 A:   I don't recall --
 16                 Q:   Don't you?
 17                 A:   -- anyone, like, coming to me and --
 18  and saying to me that, I'm going to nominate you for this
 19  position.  I had the -- the same type of thing happen to
 20  me in Kettle Point where I was also nominated for chief
 21  and nominated for Council over there and none of those
 22  people who nominated me cared to ask me or let me know
 23  that they were going to do this on my behalf or their
 24  behalf or whatever.  I -- I just basically let those
 25  people do what those people were going to do.

1 Q: Sure. 2 A: I didn't disrupt what they were doing 3 simply because I, you know -- 4 Q: And I'm going to suggest that you 5 were elected? They did what they were going to do? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And you were elected, in the summer 8 of 1993, as a councilor? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Yeah? Okay. And then I'm going to 11 suggest to you that, in 1994, there was another election 12 and you were re-elected again as councilor; do you 13 remember that? 14 A: I'm -- 15 Q: Okay. And I'll help you out here 16 again, okay? So, this is the Commission Document 1003680 17 and this is an article from the Sarnia Observer dated May 18 18th, 1994, and it says: 19 "Carl George has been re-elected chief 20 at the Stoney Point Group." 21 And it says: 22 "He defeated challenger, Janet Cloud." 23 And then if we go over a little bit on the 24 right-hand side of the page on the second column halfway 25 down, you'll see it says:

1 "Group members elected to council on 2 the weekend were Glenn George, Roberta 3 George, Terry George, Roderick George, 4 Bruce Manning, and Marlene Cloud." 5 And do you remember, in May of 1994, being 6 elected a councilor again? 7 A: No, I don't. 8 Q: No? You don't remember councillors 9 with those people? 10 A: All's I remember is that I used to 11 share that same interest of -- of basically getting the 12 land back. I don't recall being -- given this title. 13 Again, it -- it's that part of I was never asked type of 14 thing and -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- I don't remember casting any 17 ballots or -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- in any election. I -- I never 20 partook in any kind of election on Stoney Point until 21 this day. 22 Q: Okay. And you don't recall being 23 elected to council, in May of 1994? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Okay. And you told us a little bit

1 about the fall and the winter of 1994 and you talked a 2 little bit yesterday and we heard evidence earlier that 3 stolen cars were being taken into the Base and burnt 4 there often or left there and I think you told us 5 yesterday something like two (2) dozen were -- stolen 6 cars were on the Base. 7 Do you -- do you recall that? 8 A: I -- I heard through the people in 9 there that, yeah, they had dealt with numerous, like, 10 people were driving right through the fence and -- 11 Q: And that's the fence at Outer Drive? 12 A: All the fences. 13 Q: All the fences? 14 A: There -- there was -- there was times 15 that they come in from down by the lake over the dunes. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: There -- there was occasions that I - 18 - I seen them come in off of Army Camp Road. I seen 19 them, you know, like -- like the -- the fences where 20 people just drove right in, drove around for a while and 21 that was it. They torched them and then left. 22 Q: Sure. And I anticipate we're going 23 to hear evidence that in the fall of 1994, as a result of 24 all these stolen cars being on the Base, or coming into 25 the Base, that the Municipality decided to dig a ditch

1 along Outer Drive in an attempt to stop that traffic 2 coming in. Did you know about that? 3 A: I know that -- I think it was Carl, 4 at that time that was heading that, because I think he 5 was -- I think more so there during the day type of 6 thing. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Like, in 1994, I -- I had gone back 9 to work for Bill Johnson and I'd been -- a lot of times I 10 was getting there, like, towards evening. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: I'd be gone, like 6:00 in the morning 13 and get home at 6:00 at night -- 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: -- and that went on to -- I think I 16 worked the whole year. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: So there's things -- 19 Q: I an -- yeah. Let me just go on a 20 little bit, though. I anticipate that we're going to 21 hear evidence that on November 10th, 1994, the municipal 22 road crew was digging that ditch along Outer Drive and 23 from inside the Base, a vehicle drove along the fence 24 line where they were, and three (3) gunshots were fired. 25 Did you hear about that?

1 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. And I also anticipate that 3 we're going to hear some evidence that after that, that 4 is after November the 10th, 1994, Charlie Bowman who 5 you've told us you know, came to speak with you and 6 Roderick George to try and encourage you to assist the 7 municipality in getting that ditch dug safely. 8 Do you recall that? 9 A: I don't remember if Roderick was 10 there. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: I'm having a hard time picturing 13 Charlie Bowman coming there other than -- I think it was 14 -- I think it was the -- the time I met with Charlie 15 Bowman was when the -- the police were wanting to patrol 16 the beach. 17 I think that's about the only time I think 18 I met with him. 19 Q: Okay. Do you recall that Carl George 20 had already had discussions about letting that ditch be 21 dug and that you were concerned because he hadn't 22 consulted with you or others, before making that 23 decision? 24 Do you recall that? 25 A: I remember after everything was done

1 that -- that I had to kind of like bring an awareness to 2 them because it was -- it was a thing that was against 3 our culture that -- that inside the barracks, which is 4 basically fenced off and then you got the Military Base 5 itself that was fenced off, that I remember explaining to 6 them that I had read in the -- in the old council minutes 7 that -- that were taken from the RG-10 file in Ottawa at 8 the archives that I remember seeing in there that they -- 9 they used to fence the gardens off in case some of the 10 livestock got loose, that they usually had them penned 11 in. 12 But if they got loose, it was a thing that 13 when people were living as they -- as they used to be 14 inside the Camp that they were -- they were fencing their 15 gardens off so that -- in case of a horse or a -- or a 16 pig or a cow or something like that got loose, that it 17 wouldn't eat your -- your food supply that -- it would be 18 able to roam wherever and then they'd go and retrieve it 19 whenever they found out it was missing. 20 That -- that's -- that was the reasons 21 they fenced those things off. Same thing as like the -- 22 the cemeteries. They -- they used to basically put 23 borders around them and it was a thing that some of them 24 used to talk about that they -- they never used to put a 25 doorway on them.

1 Like they would put like a border around 2 them, they wouldn't fence it out. It would be kind of 3 like where they weren't dying to get in or they weren't 4 dying to get out, type of thing. 5 Q: Sure. Did you have a concern, 6 though, in or around November of 1994, that Carl George 7 was making decisions on your behalf and the other Stoney 8 Pointers behalf, without consulting you first? 9 A: I -- like again, I kind of heard the 10 -- the -- the part about the stolen cars. Like I -- I've 11 only seen one (1) and it was a truck that was burning. I 12 never seen the two (2) dozen cars. I -- this is what was 13 shared within our -- our little meeting place that we had 14 built that we were encountering these -- these people 15 coming and doing these things. 16 And I -- I remember hearing that part 17 being proposed that we were -- they were going to put a 18 stop to it somehow and I said, well, if you got to do it, 19 you got to do it, I'm at work. If you can look after it, 20 fine. 21 You know, that's the way that we dealt 22 with those types of things and if -- if Carl is viewed 23 as, you know, as the chief making that decision, well 24 then he's the chief that made the decision. 25 Q: And in your view, he would have had

1 every right to do that, as the chief, at the time? 2 A: I don't think you need to be a chief 3 to -- to block a road off. It was basically a whole in a 4 fence, that's all it was. 5 Q: Okay. But to make the decision on 6 behalf of the Stoney Point group, is it -- 7 A: I -- I, myself, I -- I never 8 addressed Carl as a chief simply because I wasn't a 9 chief. And to me I don't really truly understand how, 10 you know, like the -- that view of someone being a chief, 11 you know, making a decision over how stolen cars are 12 going to be stopped from coming in and out. We just 13 basically viewed we're going to put a stop to what it is 14 that's going on some way or another. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: Because we had reinforced the fence 17 and they drove right through it. We reinforced it again, 18 they done it again. So it was like sooner or later 19 somebody was going to dig a little trench to -- to block 20 them off. And it wasn't you had this title to go and do 21 this. It was basically -- I would have done it myself if 22 I wasn't at work. 23 Q: Okay. So your view, I take it then, 24 was that you agreed with the ditch being dug and you 25 didn't have a concern about discussions Carl George had

1 with the Base or the Municipality about digging that 2 ditch? 3 A: I don't really recall him -- 4