1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 February 1st, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )    (np)
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein ) (np)       The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       ) (np)       George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    )            Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )   (np)       Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stoney
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Sue Freeborn     )   (np)
 25  Lynette D'Souza  )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (Np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 11  
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  
 15  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 16  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 17  
 18  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 19  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 20  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 21  
 22  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 23  Karen Jones      )              Police Association &
 24  Debra Newell     )   (np)       K. Deane
 25  Ian McGilp       )   (np)

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Annie Leeks      )
  3  
  4  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  5  Brian Eyolfson   )   (np)       Services of Toronto
  6  Julian Roy       )
  7  Clem Nabigon     )
  8  
  9  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
 10  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 11  
 12  William Horton   )              Chiefs of Ontario
 13  Matthew Horner   )   (np)
 14  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 15  
 16  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 17  Craig Mills      )
 18  
 19  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 20  Anna Perschy     )
 21  Melissa Panjer   )   (np)
 22  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 23  
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 GLENN MORRIS GEORGE, Sworn 6 7 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 7 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 242 9 10 11 Certificate of Transcript 249 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 4 P-139 Four (4) poloroid photographs, 94 5 dated July 19/93; taken by 6 Scott Ewart, location - 7 Stoney Point. 8 9 P-140 Document No. 1002409, page 13 map of 117 10 Ipperwash Military Reserve marked by 11 Witness Glenn George, Feb 01/05 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 7 everybody. Good morning. 8 MR. DONALD WORME: Good morning, Mr. 9 Commissioner. The Commission calls the next witness, Mr. 10 Glenn George. Mr. George advises that he would be sworn 11 by the alternate oath. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 13 morning, Mr. George. 14 MR. GLENN GEORGE: Good morning. 15 16 GLENN MORRIS GEORGE (MANDOKA), Sworn: 17 18 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 19 Q: When you say, Miijwetch, I take it 20 that that means "thank you in your language? 21 A: That's one (1) of the things that 22 you're -- you're taught as a youngster, to be thankful. 23 Q: All right. Glenn, your -- just in 24 terms of the spelling of your name, it's G-L-E-N-N? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Because I've seen it spelt a variety 2 of different ways. 3 A: Two (2) N's. 4 Q: Two (2) N's? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And, Mr. George, your date of birth 7 is the 29th of March 1962? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: That would make you forty-two (42) 10 years of age at this moment? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: All right. You are -- you are 13 married and have three (3) children? 14 A: I have three (3) children but I'm not 15 married. 16 Q: You have a partner? 17 A: Yeah, I have a partner. 18 Q: All right. Fair enough. I 19 understand that your father was the late Dan George? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Your mother was the late Melva 22 George? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And just so I understand correctly, I 25 also understand that your folks had lived, at least for

1 part of their time, at the Kettle Point community? 2 A: Yes, they did. I'd like to add too 3 that in a lot of the things within the past where -- 4 where they used to ask that same question, that it was 5 always -- you'd always get a look because my mother was a 6 George and my father was a George; so I just wanted to 7 add that. 8 Q: Oh, I see. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: Your mother was involved in the 11 government, if I can put it that way, of the Kettle Point 12 First Nation. She was a Band councillor. 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: All right. And I understand, Mr. 15 George, that one of her portfolios would have been to 16 look after land issues? 17 A: Yeah. It was the land claims 18 portfolio that she was given. 19 Q: A land claims portfolio. Now, that - 20 - did that include, on behalf of -- of the Kettle and 21 Stony Point First Nation, making a claim in relation to 22 the Stoney Point lands, that is to say those lands that 23 were appropriated by the Federal Government in 1942, 24 pursuant to the War Measures Act? 25 A: Yes, they were. I think they might

1 have used the term, "Camp Ipperwash" at -- on the 2 document. 3 Q: All right. But that's something that 4 your mother was involved with during the time that she 5 acted in an official capacity, as part of the band? 6 A: Yes, it was. Yeah. 7 Q: And I take it that you would have 8 become aware of some of the land issues by virtue of that 9 as well as by virtue of the fact that your father, Dan 10 George, was active in seeking the return of those lands? 11 A: Yes, he was. There's -- there's that 12 part of -- my grandfather, like my namesake, Morris 13 George, had also owned land on the West Ipperwash, which 14 is the beach on Kettle Point that was taken away too in 15 the -- the same type of dealings. 16 Q: I see. And I understand that that 17 was subject to some litigation or a formal land claim 18 that was -- that was eventually dealt with? 19 A: Hmm hmm. Like, they -- they always 20 spoke of those -- they -- they had them in a list of, 21 like, they -- there was the Camp Ipperwash, West 22 Ipperwash. They had Eniskillen listed on there and then 23 they -- they wrote "lake bed" at -- at the bottom which 24 dealt with Lake Huron and the -- be like the Lake Smith, 25 Lake Burwell, that used to be the hunting grounds that --

1 I remember hearing those constantly time and time again 2 that these were, you know, the things that were taken 3 away without, you know, being protected or they weren't 4 allowed to be stolen, but yet, you know, they were gone, 5 type of thing. 6 Q: All right. Now, we've heard 7 something about some of the history of -- of this region 8 and I take it that what you are referring to now are the 9 ongoing comments that your family and others from these 10 communities, that is Kettle Point and Stoney Point would 11 make about their traditional lands. Is that fair? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Just carrying on with your own family 14 background, Mr. George, your father's -- your father's 15 parents were Robert and Laura George? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I take it that your grandmother 18 was Laura Dunbar -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- by her maiden name? 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: Your mother's parents are Edgar 23 Shawnoo and Phyllis George? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: You have a number of -- of siblings

1 including Graham George? 2 A: Yeah. He's my oldest brother. 3 Q: Now, Graham is also known by the 4 name, "Fletcher," true? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: All right. Val George? 7 A: Yeah, she's my older sister. 8 Q: All right. Marcia Simon, who we've 9 already heard in this Inquiry? 10 A: Yeah, she's -- she's, like, in 11 between Val and Cheryl. 12 Q: And Cheryl -- you're referring to 13 Cheryl Stonefish, your sister? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. Catherine Mandoka -- 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: -- is your sister as well? 18 A: She's -- she's kind of, like, my next 19 -- kind of like -- they're all like mothers to me, so to 20 speak. 21 Q: I see. Dan George, Jr.? 22 A: Dan George, Jr. is -- is my brother 23 that -- along with all my cousins they -- they always are 24 there for you. They -- you know, sometimes you -- you 25 might be seen as doing some things kind of off-the-wall

1 or something like that, but it was always, you know, they 2 were there to back you up, to reaffirm that what it -- 3 what it was that we were doing was, like, as a family 4 thing. 5 Q: All right. Warren George? 6 A: Warren George is the same. He's -- 7 Q: Okay. He's your younger brother? 8 A: No, no. I'm the youngest. 9 Q: Oh, okay. 10 A: I'm the youngest and -- and they're 11 kind of like the, being -- being raised in the -- in the 12 -- in the setting that we were raised, we -- we always 13 had that -- that part of the close-knit family where, you 14 know, you -- you need something, your brother's there; 15 that's what families area about. 16 Q: Just so I'm clear, we've heard from a 17 Warren George in these proceedings and he was also -- 18 also went by the name, "Waldo". 19 Is that one (1) and the same? 20 A: No, that's my nephew, that's -- 21 that's Warren's boy. 22 Q: Mark George and Chris Wakefield? 23 Those are your siblings as well? 24 A: Yeah. Mark's my brother over there, 25 with the eagle staff. He's two (2) years older than I

1 am. 2 Q: I noted as well, Mr. George, when you 3 were asked by the Registrar for your full name, you also 4 gave a further name. I take it that that is a 5 traditional family name? 6 A: Yeah. George Mandoka was the name 7 that when they -- when they started taking lists of -- of 8 the people that were living on these lands, that was how 9 they determined who was who. They used his first name as 10 -- as how everyone else was going to be listed. 11 It's a -- it's a common understanding that 12 if your name is George, well then that's the first name 13 of your grandfather is George Mandokar, that's how it 14 came to -- 15 Q: I see. So that's the genesis of the 16 George family name -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- as you understand it? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And your sister, Catherine Mandoka, I 21 take it then that that is a -- a revision of the surname 22 to the traditional surname? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: All right. Mr. George, I understand 25 that you have been employed in the construction industry,

1 primarily as a heavy equipment operator? 2 A: That plus a general labourer. I -- 3 I've been working at several different levels of -- you 4 know, the -- it's like the developing part of, like, 5 building roads, sub-divisions, sewers, waterlines. Same 6 type of work that my -- my father used to do. 7 Q: Okay. Where did this construction 8 take place? I take it it's not -- not here, is it? 9 A: I travelled Sarnia, London. I've 10 worked in Florida. I've -- I've worked all over. The -- 11 the jobs, when they get finished you tend to move onto 12 the -- to the next one. 13 Q: And are you member of a union hall? 14 A: Yes, I am. The Labourers Union out 15 of London. 16 Q: And I think we've heard a bit as -- 17 we well, from perhaps it was your siblings, Mr. George, 18 who testified about the work that your father had done in 19 this region and that some of his work is still apparent. 20 A: Yes, he was -- he was one of the ones 21 that worked on a lot of the roads. His -- his view to us 22 was, you know, it was -- it was -- it was a tough thing 23 to deal with knowing that you had -- how do you word it? 24 It'd be like ancestors buried around the 25 countryside and if you're -- you're going to build roads

1 then you -- you had to always make sure that you were 2 going to be busy digging up your ancestors as you're 3 building a road. And it was a thing that he -- he spent 4 time telling us, that it was -- it was for communication 5 purposes that he was building a lot of the roads. 6 And he used to make the comment to us 7 about, you know, like the telephones and all the 8 technology today still didn't match the -- the moccasin 9 telegraph of communications, eh; that sometimes the word 10 of mouth is still works better than, like, somebody can't 11 find the time to pick up the phone to -- to talk to 12 somebody. 13 Q: Mr. George, your father, as we've 14 been told in this Inquiry, was -- was very active and his 15 attempts to repossess, I think it's probably fair to put 16 it, the -- the lands that I think you referred to as the 17 Ipperwash Military Base? 18 A: Oh yeah, like, that was an ongoing 19 thing with -- as -- like with myself being -- being the 20 youngest in the family, was always, you know, Mom's going 21 up there, you'd better get out there and give her a hand. 22 Okay. You know, well, we got to do -- go do it. 23 And a lot of times I seen my parents, you 24 know, demonstrating on, like, a lot of times it would -- 25 the Military used to have this thing called LG Day where

1 the Lieutenant Governor would come into the Camp and 2 they'd have like their marching ceremonies. And they 3 used to hand out information to -- to the public going 4 by, like whoever cared to stop. 5 A little short, little briefing about the 6 history of the land and what they were attempting to do, 7 raise awareness about the land being taken. 8 Q: All right. And did your father ever 9 express to you what his feelings were, what his 10 sentiments were about the -- about the loss of the land 11 and -- 12 A: Oh, we used to hear everything. 13 Like, people, you know, used to try selling land in 14 Kettle Point and he -- he never bothered with that part. 15 He just offered to lend them money if they needed it. 16 And he said, I live over there, pointing towards the Army 17 Camp. 18 Q: Had you ever had occasion, Mr. 19 George, to accompany your father or -- or, indeed, anyone 20 on to the lands that were known then as Camp Ipperwash? 21 A: Oh, yeah, several times. It was -- 22 it was an ongoing thing that -- that, within our family, 23 we used to -- we used to always take our rides down to 24 the lakefront there, where, you know, my -- my dad and 25 uncles, we used to -- we used to fish down there. And a

1 lot of times we never -- we never actually drove down 2 there. 3 Sometimes we went down just the end of the 4 road and we took a boat down. We used to talk about, 5 This is where I used to live -- this is -- as a 6 youngster, this is where I used to, you know, have to 7 hunt, and stuff like that to, you know, provide some kind 8 of food for -- for dinner, and stuff like that, eh. 9 Q: What approximate age were you when 10 you first started attending there? 11 A: I remember my dad took me fishing 12 down there, oh gees, I think I was probably before ten 13 (10), something like that. But it was a constant thing. 14 Every time we drove by, like, it was, There's where my 15 house used to be, you know, like, that was it. 16 Q: I'm going to -- I'm going to put up 17 on the screen here, or have Ms. Hensel put up on the 18 screen, a diagram that's been marked in these proceedings 19 as P-40, Mr. George. It's -- do you recognize that, 20 first of all, that map? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And I wonder if you might just 23 indicate to us the area that your father would point to, 24 I think as you put it, that's where my house used to be? 25 A: There --

1 Q: There might be a -- a pointer there 2 somewhere, a laser pointer. Perhaps you can use that to 3 indicate. 4 A: There used to be, right in this area, 5 there -- there's a steel building out there. And there's 6 a -- there's a big oak tree off to the side of it. And 7 that's right where the old homestead used to be, right 8 there. 9 Q: Do you know how much land your father 10 had then, when you say he had a homestead there? 11 A: That changed. I -- I used to always 12 hear him say thirty-nine and a half (39 1/2) acres and 13 forty (40) acres. And, like, I think my grandmother and 14 my grandfather had I think eighty (80) or something like 15 that. They had, like, a property twice the size that 16 they were given out. But that was -- that was always 17 something to changing, eh. 18 Like, sometimes you'd have farm -- 19 farmland where -- like, my understanding was when -- when 20 they were living there, the saplings were the size of 21 their fingers. Like, a lot of the logs and everything 22 had already been taken. 23 So, there was, like, basically, you know, 24 wherever they -- they could find soil that was good 25 enough for -- for growing, whether it be oats or corn,

1 that's where they moved it to. 2 Q: Okay. And just for the record, I -- 3 I want to say that you have indicated an area immediately 4 to the east of the rifle range and to the west of that 5 that is marked as "Magazine" on the map -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- to the north of what has been 8 described for us as Highway 21. 9 A: Yeah. That's, again, the -- the way 10 I was explained, it was a wagon trail, that that road 11 belonged to us. I think they -- they called the other 12 road that -- that it would be travelling along there and 13 the other way -- 14 Q: Go back. 15 A: -- you take it up, there's -- there's 16 another road that -- that goes along here and there's a - 17 - there's a row of walnut trees; that was the Bluewater 18 Highway. And this -- this land was leased to those 19 farmers, that -- that was leased to them by the community 20 prior to the -- to the Military taking the land, hey. 21 They -- they used to talk about, at the 22 time, they -- they used to hunt rabbits, jackrabbits out 23 there. They used to try to go to the corner store to buy 24 a box of shells and they would only sell them one (1) or 25 two (2), simply because they -- I guess they were the

1 store owner, I guess. 2 But it was -- it was one (1) of those 3 things that they -- they said they used to -- they used 4 to have this old coat that hung out in the barn, that was 5 a full-length one, that they used to wrap themselves up 6 in it. And they -- they used to wait until more than one 7 (1) jackrabbit came out and because they only had one (1) 8 chalet and they wait til they lined up and then they'd 9 shoot them. 10 Like that was -- that was the way of the 11 day, I guess. 12 Q: Just so I understand your earlier 13 comment, Mr. George, the -- the suggestion I think you 14 put is that what is -- what is known as Highway 21 or has 15 been pointed out to us to be Highway 21 on that map -- 16 A: Yeah, that's -- 17 Q: -- in fact had previously been, did 18 you say, a wagon trail? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: That's right -- right there. That's 22 Highway 21 that used to run through the -- through the 23 territory and like, even this road here, like, you can 24 see -- 25 Q: You're referring to --

1 A: -- there was never a road there -- 2 Q: -- what's been described as Outer 3 Drive on the -- 4 A: Yeah, I think Outer -- I think Outer 5 Drive, this road here is maybe only maybe at the most no 6 more than thirty (30) years old. Not even that, I don't 7 think. 8 So it's just a new road, eh? 9 Q: All right. And so I understand this, 10 Mr. George, the relevance of that is? 11 A: It's along the lines of the -- like 12 the -- the part of the perimeters, I guess, that 13 sometimes those change. Like to my understanding, 14 there's -- there's lands up in that -- like in the area 15 up in here that were never given away, they allowed -- 16 allowed for people to live on. 17 And -- and the old people they -- they 18 seen where cottages were encroaching on the Camp. Like 19 they -- they, themselves, have seen that. 20 Q: Okay. When you say lands that were 21 never given up, you're referring to what has been 22 otherwise described as unceded lands? 23 A: Yeah. Like the perimeters of the -- 24 the Base itself, those -- those were areas that the 25 Military was supposed to, kind of like, restrict entry.

1 That's what they were telling our people that it was 2 restricted entry. 3 But yet you seen development happen out 4 here in this area. 5 Q: Is there development in that area 6 now? And you're indicating, Mr. George, the area to the 7 north along the lakeshore -- 8 A: Yeah, it'd be like the -- 9 Q: -- of the inland lakes -- 10 A: -- north-east -- the north-east 11 corner of the property. Like, in that area right there. 12 Q: Okay. So west of Outer Drive along 13 the lakeshore? 14 A: That's like -- I guess it's west, 15 because to my understanding, like, from -- from this area 16 here to that area is due north. It's kind of -- 17 Q: And I recognize that that is not a 18 true north/south and I -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- think we've been using those 21 directions in an attempt to avoid saying northeast or 22 northwest -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: -- and such -- 25 A: It's -- it's kind of like a -- this

1 is north from this point. Like that. That's like due 2 north. 3 Q: Okay, fair enough. For the purposes 4 of describing it though, you have indicated that there 5 was development encroaching on, I think you -- you 6 confirmed, unceded land, or at least suggest that that is 7 unceded land to the west of Outer Drive along the 8 lakeshore? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: All right. You've indicated earlier, 11 Mr. George, that your father would take you fishing and 12 perhaps you would accompany others along the lakeshore. 13 Is that the same area that you're referring to? 14 A: All along here. They used to fish 15 around this little reef here. There was a lot of fishing 16 that went on right at the end of this road. I remember 17 as a -- as a young guy, my uncle -- he's still alive. 18 Uncle Cabbage used to -- he's a big man. 19 He used to throw his old boat right in the back of the 20 truck and let's go. We'd set a couple of nets right off 21 the end of that road and that would be like just prior to 22 the freeze up in the winter time, eh. 23 We never took a motor, we just rode out 24 and we were only -- you know, twenty (20) feet off the 25 shore in three (3) feet of water to about six (6) feet of

1 water. You know, we -- we had a truck full of fish just 2 in like two (2) nets. 3 Q: When you say Uncle Cabbage, did he go 4 by another name? 5 A: Calvin was his name. He's one (1) of 6 the ones in our family that's been overseas and come 7 back. 8 Q: When you say, "overseas," you mean as 9 -- as a Military person, as a soldier? 10 A: Yeah. Yeah, he's a -- I guess the 11 term -- one (1) of the warriors. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: It's -- it's a thing where I guess 14 where you -- you live it, you -- you see it, you breath 15 it. Sometimes you've got to go, yuck, because it -- you 16 almost taste that thing called war, eh? And it's the way 17 they viewed it to us. 18 Q: And speaking of war, Mr. George, we 19 are told that during a war, that that land was then 20 converted to the Military reserve, as it's now depicted-- 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: -- and I'm assuming that you were 23 told something about that? 24 A: Well, I was told -- 25 Q: What can you tell us about that?

1 A: What -- what I was told was that, you 2 know, the -- the things that directly happened in my 3 family was my Uncle Tom and my Uncle Bruce had enlisted 4 into the Military. 5 And -- and there was -- there was a lot of 6 things prior to 1942 when they actually moved those 7 people out that they made several attempts to have legal 8 advice hired to represent their -- their -- their cause 9 as to, you know, they -- they didn't feel like the land 10 should be taken for that purpose because of the -- the 11 understanding that the -- our people have is, you know, 12 the -- the great law of peace is something that I think - 13 - to the general public they -- they -- they think of the 14 war cause as being something, you know, that everybody's 15 got to contribute. 16 But to -- to us that was kind of 17 forbidden, that we could only talk of peace; that we 18 couldn't -- we couldn't be war-like. And that's kind of 19 like the understanding of that, that when you -- you grow 20 up here and, you know, that your -- your uncles have been 21 overseas to war. And it was -- it was a thing that they 22 -- they talked -- they were going to protect the lands so 23 that nobody can come and take your land and, you know -- 24 Q: Okay, but this land was nonetheless 25 taken. We've been --

1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: -- we've been told that and that is a 3 fact. 4 A: It is a fact that -- 5 Q: And you were told what about that? 6 A: I was told that, you know, that some 7 day when the war was over that they were going to give 8 the land back. 9 Q: Okay. And who -- who related this to 10 you, Mr. George? 11 A: My dad used to say that. And my 12 mother always had the -- the -- the view that, you know, 13 that the West Ipperwash was -- was also taken. And that, 14 you know, like the -- the part within my family, all my 15 brothers and sister they -- they had been a part of, 16 like, those old locatee meetings where they used to talk 17 about how these different lands were taken and for what 18 purpose and why, you know. 19 And I remember constantly hearing them say 20 that it made them frustrated because they talked that the 21 beach land was unsuitable for agriculture. and they -- 22 they used to laugh about it because there wasn't no sense 23 in being mad because it was -- it didn't help nothing 24 either. 25 Q: Sorry, you said, "Locatee Meetings"

1 and you'll forgive me if I'm not pronouncing that 2 properly? 3 A: They called themselves the Locatees, 4 like -- 5 Q: Loca -- 6 A: -- my -- my mother. 7 Q: Okay, I -- I see. Go ahead. 8 A: They -- they -- they used to host 9 meetings around the reserve, different houses. It was 10 like a little social thing that they used to have, you 11 know, coffee cakes and coffee, tea, that kind of stuff. 12 And they used to always try and formulate some kind of 13 plan on how they were going to get their land back 14 through that system that's out there. 15 Q: Okay. You've talked about some of 16 your uncles that have -- that had, rather, joined the 17 Military, that had gone overseas to fight to protect 18 their land. 19 And -- and again, I'm -- I'm counting on 20 you to correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. George -- 21 A: That would -- 22 Q: -- in terms of what you said. Is 23 Clifford George one (1) of those individuals as well? 24 A: Yes, he's one (1) of my dad's first 25 cousins that, you know, that -- I don't know what the

1 term would be, I guess, warrior. Like, that's -- that's 2 the thing that everybody wants to talk about a warrior 3 society. 4 And that's the closest thing to a warrior 5 society that I have in relation other than my uncles 6 that, you know, the -- to go overseas and fight for this 7 great cause that seemed to have undermined their efforts. 8 Q: All right. Your grandparents, Dan 9 and Melva, had also had -- 10 A: My dad -- 11 Q: I'm sorry? 12 A: My mom and dad. 13 Q: Your mom and dad, pardon me, were 14 grandparents, I should have said, to Marlin and Kevin 15 Simon? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. And they were raised by 18 your -- by your folks? 19 A: Yeah, they -- it was a family. They 20 were like my little brothers. I -- I didn't have younger 21 brothers, I just got older brothers, so they were like my 22 younger brothers. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: Even though they're my nephews. 25 Q: All right. In these meetings of

1 locatees, as you've called it, and subsequently, there 2 were plans formulated to try to get some strategy 3 together to reclaim these lands. 4 A: Yeah, the constantly they did 5 fundraising. It was always a -- like a reminder to them 6 that -- you know, that work is something, you know, that 7 we all have to work towards at. 8 I think through time, some of those work 9 ethics have kind of like, I guess, paid off. But I think 10 in the -- in the same -- same breath there's always been 11 the thing of where knowing my family, knowing -- knowing 12 that some of them had tried, like, the part of becoming a 13 part of the policing services in the area that -- that 14 that was going to be somewhere along the lines helpful, 15 somewhere in the future. 16 I -- I looked at it back then that, you 17 know, that it's similar to going to war in another 18 country to protect your land that's here and then to find 19 out the -- the type of treachery that comes with it. 20 I don't know. It's -- 21 Q: Okay, but certainly your mother 22 wasn't prepared to take those kinds of steps. We've seen 23 photographs, for example, of her holding a vigilant, if I 24 can put it that way, sitting in a lawn chair somewhere in 25 the vicinity of the Army Camp passing out pamphlets to

1 passers-by. 2 A: Yeah. It was a ongoing thing, you 3 know. I mean -- 4 Q: And I understand that you were 5 involved in that as well as a youngster? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: You would deliver pamphlets to cars 8 that would come by. 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And what was the message on these 11 pamphlets? 12 A: A lot of them was -- they -- they had 13 little briefings that said what was here before and what 14 took place during 1942 and how many -- how many people 15 had to be taken off their lands. They used to change 16 from year to year. 17 I know at one (1) time they put on there 18 that there was I think, six (6) like, young kids that -- 19 that, you know, because of the unavailable, like, garden 20 area and freshwater that they -- some of them got sick 21 and had died because of the move in 1942. 22 It was things like that that they used to 23 put on them. 24 Q: I see. So it was a -- it was an 25 attempt to bring to the public some of the misery that

1 was faced by folks as a result of the relocation? 2 A: Yeah. It was just a -- it was like a 3 -- a -- sometimes they handed out pamphlets, even, like. 4 Sometimes there was -- there was like maps like this that 5 were -- that were put on there that they always let it be 6 known that there was a, like a cemetery in the area in 7 here. 8 And there was -- there was a part of the 9 Park that -- that -- which in our family we -- we were 10 always taught about, you know, who was buried in there 11 and -- 12 Q: Well, let's just talk about that for 13 a moment, shall we? You've indicated that it was -- 14 there was an attempt to make people, the public, 15 understand that there was a cemetery and you've indicated 16 with the pointer to the map somewhere in the -- can we 17 say the middle of the -- of that land base? 18 A: Yeah. It's on the ridge. 19 Q: There would appear to be a road 20 through there just to the -- well, east of what's defined 21 as the dump? 22 A: Yeah. There's -- there's an old 23 trail that they got here, like, nobody hardly uses it. 24 Like just to walk down. But that mound has -- has always 25 been there. There's a -- like the old -- the old stories

1 of -- of where the mound is, it was always that -- that 2 old man, the warrior that was buried sitting up in the 3 mound behind it, like, facing the lake, so he could sit 4 up and watch over his people. That was -- 5 Q: And that's one (1) of the teachings-- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- is it? 8 A: Yeah, that's what we were told, 9 that's -- he's still there, watching out over his people. 10 Q: And we're also given to understand, 11 Mr. George, that your father was buried there in 1990? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And, in fact, that he was one (1) of 14 the first people to be buried there in, what's been 15 called modern times. 16 A: Yeah, he's -- that was his last wish 17 was, Take me home, and everybody knew where his home was. 18 Q: And did you know -- or did you know 19 how that was facilitated; that is his -- his being buried 20 in -- in the traditional burial grounds of -- of your 21 people? 22 A: Yeah. Well, he -- he was the one 23 that said, Take me home, and just-- all I did was ask, 24 you know, brothers and cousins, that the old man wants to 25 go home, so that's what we did; we took him home.

1 Q: Do you know what kind of 2 arrangements, if any, were made to -- to have that 3 happen? 4 A: I know that there's people out there, 5 like my brother, Graham, and some of my cousins and some 6 of my uncles that were involved in that, but I was -- I 7 just asked them; I didn't have to do that part. I was -- 8 I was involved with, you know, the part of looking after 9 the things with my mom and that, eh? 10 Q: I understand. You've told us that as 11 a -- as a youngster you hunted in those areas, you were 12 taken there to fish in those areas. 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: We've heard from other witnesses, Mr. 15 George, that in the inland lakes areas that -- that that 16 is also fruitful ground for other kinds of gathering, 17 traditional medicines, somebody said hunting for morels, 18 that sort of thing. 19 Were you aware of any of that kind of 20 activity? 21 A: Oh, yeah, that was -- that's like an 22 ongoing thing. It always was regardless if the -- the 23 Military was there or not that the people always gathered 24 medicines and, like, the morels is always still being 25 done every year. And even -- even though our people

1 weren't living there I know that there was always people 2 that went in there to gather those -- gather those foods. 3 It's -- it's one (1) of those things that 4 -- that you might be able to take away the land, but 5 you're not going to take away the medicines, I guess, so 6 to speak. Like, the way of life that we were brought up 7 is -- is -- is that we had to gather these things and 8 that, you know, was -- it was one (1) of those things 9 that you -- you're comfortable with looking at them 10 rather than looking for them. 11 Like, say, if it's snow-covered, you got 12 to go get these things before the snow covers them up 13 because you're going to have a hard time finding them if 14 the snow's there, that -- that's the way of live. 15 Q: We've also heard, I think, in these 16 proceedings, Mr. George, from other witnesses that there 17 would be permits provided by the Military to former 18 Stoney Point occupants to cut wood, for example? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Were you aware of anything like that? 21 A: Yeah. As a -- as a young kid I -- I 22 was -- I was always the guy they sent in -- sent in to 23 the Band Office to go get the -- the woodcutting permit 24 that they -- they gave the people two (2) days to -- to 25 cut wood inside the -- inside the Camp.

1 And I know with my -- my dad and my Uncle 2 Abe and my cousins, we used to -- we used to have, like, 3 tractors with trailers and old trucks with trailers that, 4 you know, sometimes it was -- it was hard, like -- like 5 some of my nephews and that, seeing how we work in the 6 bush when you got to gather wood, you -- you had to get 7 it done in -- in that time frame of two (2) days to -- to 8 burn all year. 9 And they used to look at us as kind of 10 like, almost like, little slaves or whatever, but, you 11 know, we didn't look at it like that, it was -- it was a 12 social gathering for us to -- to go in the bush and, you 13 know, you -- you had tea. 14 If you wanted hotdogs or sandwiches you -- 15 you packed your lunch and you went to work; that was -- 16 that was the kind of, I guess, the work ethic that our 17 parents put us in. 18 Q: And moving beyond that then, Mr. 19 George, you talked to us about meetings that were held by 20 the locatees about devising strategies to reclaim the 21 land. We've also heard the title, "Aazhoodena". 22 Can you tell us something about that? 23 A: Aazhoodena is -- is a -- is a the 24 name of the -- of the community. Aazhoodena Anjibek 25 (phonetic) would be like this -- this here is Aazhoodena

1 Anjibek. Anjibek is -- is like, this is the little town. 2 Odena is town in -- in our language. They -- they -- 3 they always had that part of an understanding that there 4 -- there was always our relatives in Odena, Wisconsin, 5 which is a part of the -- the Bad River Indian Reserve. 6 That's kind of, like, across Lake Superior from Thunder 7 Bay. 8 And that our relatives that -- I remember 9 they -- they used to talk about an old story about, in 10 this area, where my great-grandfather Albert George had 11 loaded up my grandfather Robert George -- not my uncle 12 but my grandfather -- that they took him in a canoe and 13 they -- they went across the lake to -- to Bark River, 14 Michigan; it's near Hannaville. 15 Hannaville is -- we have a lot of 16 relatives there that -- he had been just a youngster when 17 they -- when they took off and he had -- went back as a 18 grownup and they -- they recognized him even though he -- 19 when he was there he was -- he was just a baby. 20 They had a thing that they talked about, 21 it was, like, an old man named Stan Cloud, that they -- 22 they went over there and they built the church in Bark 23 River. It's -- is identical to the one in Kettle Point, 24 that's the first -- the first building on the Reserve 25 there.

1 Q: Let me just interrupt you briefly, 2 Mr. George. When -- when you had described Aazhoodena, 3 you were indicating the -- toward the map with the laser 4 pointer, and I think you were pointing to the perimeters 5 of what is depicted in P-40 being the Ipperwash Military 6 Reserve? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: Secondly, when you referred to your 9 uncle Robert travelling, you were pointing to the area 10 that's shown on the map as Stoney Point? 11 A: Yeah. It was -- it was my 12 grandfather -- 13 Q: Grandfather, okay. 14 A: -- who was Robert. At that time, it 15 -- it was a thing that -- my dad talked about they -- 16 when they went it was -- it was like a thing of, you 17 know, the safe travel moon, they -- they travelled 18 regardless, you know, like, it's not like a lot of people 19 view travel today. 20 Like, you got -- if you got a canoe that - 21 - that's, like, been made out -- out of a tree, then you 22 use that part of the water -- the spirit, you said where 23 you wanted to go, you basically steered the canoe, you 24 didn't paddle it. 25 That's how the spiritual part of how they

1 were able to travel so far was, you know, it was a 2 spiritual thing to them. 3 Q: The second part I wanted to ask you 4 about in terms of your earlier comments, Mr. George, you 5 had motioned towards, with the laser pointer, that area 6 in the upper northeast section of what you've described 7 as Aazhoodena. It's depicted on P-40 as the Ipperwash 8 Provincial Park. And you've indicated that there were 9 other burials there. 10 A: Yeah. My grandfather Albert George, 11 they -- they used to call him Kamoni (phonetic), that was 12 the name that I always heard. Like, I never met none of 13 my grandfathers. All my grandfathers have all went on. 14 But I seen pictures of them and I -- I've 15 seen, you know, like the part where I seen my dad looking 16 and he seen a picture of my -- my grandfather Bob holding 17 my -- my uncle Fletcher. And my dad used to always tell 18 me that, that little guy is buried in the Park. 19 Q: And did he say where in the Park 20 that he was buried? And I -- I'm assuming we're talking 21 about your Uncle Fletcher? 22 A: Yeah. They always talked about that 23 he was buried in that area where that water treatment 24 plant is. In that area. And there used to be people 25 buried all in different areas in the Park that.

1 Like, the way you look at it now, it's 2 flattened out but at that time there used to be -- the 3 way the dunes are. The dunes were, like, they -- they 4 had mounds in there, that our People were buried on 5 mounds. And that's the thing, they didn't bury them in 6 the, you know, the -- the swampy areas, it was on mounds. 7 And the same thing with -- with my dad, 8 where, for him to tell his story about his grandfather, 9 meaning Kamoni was my great-grandfather, that -- that's 10 the way he explained it to me, was that's where he -- he 11 buried his brother. 12 Fletcher was near where his great- 13 grandfather, like my great-grandfather was, eh? 14 And that's kind of like the thing that I 15 guess a lot of people don't want to talk about because 16 that's something that went on in the area, eh? Like to 17 hear how they -- how they taken the hunting grounds, it 18 was the same story. 19 When you're looking at the -- the areas 20 next to the Pinery Park, they had -- they had dug this 21 Cut River, which drained those hunting grounds, that was 22 the same thing that they had done was unearth some -- 23 some of my relatives that were laid to rest there. 24 Nobody really talks about that simply 25 because it's -- it's already done. It's already -- it's

1 history. You can't change it. That's the only reason 2 they -- they don't really talk about it. 3 They all know about it. But it's -- 4 there's somewhere along the lines of a mechanism to get 5 on with the future. And it wasn't like you just forget 6 that, it's -- it's like you -- you will never forget. 7 And you know, you try to keep that optimistic view that 8 someday the -- you know where -- where my dad always 9 proclaimed to be where his inheritance for me was, was 10 within there. 11 That's the -- 12 Q: So Aazhoodena is something that you 13 have had described to you as your inheritance? 14 A: Aazhoodena Anjibek was like I told 15 you, within this and then when they talk about in our 16 language, Aazhoodena Anjibek that's the whole territory. 17 That's different. That's -- that's no different than 18 Wheelgadong is Kettle Point. 19 Aanjonong is Sarnia, Bkegnong is Walpole. 20 Those are all different names. Geographically different 21 places. They -- in our language, there wasn't no 22 Wiikwedong and Aazhoodena. There was -- it wasn't like 23 that. They were always as one. When you're dealing with 24 that big picture, you know, that's the way it was. 25 Q: Just let me see if I can understand

1 you, though, Mr. George. You described your father's 2 teachings to you that -- of your inheritance as being 3 that area. 4 You've just marked the perimeters of that 5 area on P-40 with the laser pointer and that was your 6 inheritance as was told to you by -- am I correct in 7 that? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: All right. And insofar as that 10 inheritance, you had taken certain measures, I take it, 11 with others in the footsteps of your parents to bring to 12 the public attention that that -- that there was some 13 rights or some colour of right or some interest that you 14 had with respect to that property? 15 A: Yeah, it felt -- it -- it's always a 16 thing when -- say -- say for instance, you go to another 17 community and -- and like -- in a area, like, we got 18 relatives on all the other communities. And it's like 19 you don't -- you don't go there and you know, cry your 20 eyes out and feel sorry because those people over there 21 gone through the same thing. 22 It's -- it's a thing of having something 23 and then somebody putting up a fence for you, either to 24 fence you in or fence you out. Our people never had 25 fences. And it's a thing that, you know, in -- it's like

1 a learned thing, like, for humour purposes you used to 2 hear them talk about the -- the younger brother, meaning 3 the -- the white guy, was -- he's them guys that build 4 bridges over dry land type of thing. 5 The Indians, they only built them over 6 water, like that's what you see today. You know, that's 7 kind of like how they -- they had viewed that, eh, 8 because I heard stories, you know, my dad and them used 9 to go to meetings and say in -- in Walpole and they used 10 to have to take a ferry across, before they had the 11 bridge, eh? 12 And that was one (1) of the things that, 13 you know, they used to find something humorous about it 14 to just be able to live with the fact that, you know, 15 somebody's building perimeters for them. 16 Somebody's telling them, no, you can't 17 live over there, you got to live there. And, you know, 18 it was -- it was the thing of the day that our people 19 knew that, you know, that in the -- in the beginning 20 these old agreements were -- they were only given the 21 depth of a plough. 22 Like I -- I heard that so many times, but 23 yet you see them digging these great big holes and gravel 24 pits and mining under the ground, like -- like to me, I'm 25 not going into that type of an argument, but that's what

1 I heard from my dad. My dad talked about that because he 2 worked in it. 3 Q: All right. And if I can paraphrase 4 you, you are talking about a traditional understanding or 5 a -- a First Nations understanding of treaty 6 arrangements. Is that -- 7 A: Yeah, it was -- it was like a 8 collective thing, that happened to all of our people, 9 regardless as to what reserve they lived on. They -- 10 they lived in -- in -- in Walpole, it was the same thing. 11 They -- they had lands that were shrunken down. 12 They had, you know, we -- we -- we have 13 the same thing here where -- where, you know, you're -- 14 you're given an area under an old agreement that it was a 15 -- a shared thing, that we were going to share our land 16 with these people and then the next thing you know 17 they're -- they're fencing all this land off. 18 And, like, to this day you look at this -- 19 this perimeter of land here on this map, and you go 20 across the road and one (1) farmer's got more land than 21 that. And to think of how it is that -- that, you know, 22 you -- you try and find out how did these perimeters come 23 to be and, you know, like I've -- I've travelled to 24 Ottawa. Like, I've walked to Ottawa, I've done all these 25 things.

1 I -- I went to look in the -- the archives 2 to find records and I -- I kind of wondered how come the 3 Council minutes of the Stoney Point Council were doing -- 4 what are they doing in RG-10 trial in Ottawa? 5 See, these -- these are the types of 6 things that, to me, I -- I -- I can only ponder what went 7 on in, you know, my -- my dad and my uncles and my aunts 8 and even my relatives on the other reserves that are out 9 there that, here we are today struggling to survive. 10 And, you know, the -- the things that we 11 had do to survive kind of make people feel, I don't know, 12 scared. But I don't think they can ever live with the -- 13 the fear that, you know, having -- having a might of an 14 army coming in to move you off your land. 15 Like, my dad was twenty-one (21) years old 16 when this happened. And that's, you know, a part of me. 17 Like I've heard that on and on. Like my mother was taken 18 away and put in a residential school. And, you know, she 19 was able to come back and do the things to try and help 20 regardless as what it is that they taught her. Like, 21 there was certain things that I used to ask of my mother 22 and -- and she used to give me the same look when I used 23 to ask my uncles about more. 24 They used to say, No, I -- I don't want to 25 tell you. I -- you know, my uncle used to have

1 flashbacks. He was a -- he was a sniper. He was -- he 2 was one (1) of those guys that, you know, was taught how 3 to, you know, defend his country here. 4 And then it's -- it's, like, here you -- 5 here you go where, you know, these guys are, you know, 6 they never -- they never got their promised care that 7 they were -- they were being told that, you know, you 8 would be given land, you'd be given money, you'd be given 9 all of these things. 10 My uncle, you know, he died with nothing. 11 The Military never -- never done nothing to help him. He 12 was -- he was one (1) of the ones that, you know, was 13 pronounced dead during the war. The Military sent my 14 mother a letter stating that Milford was shot and killed 15 in action. 16 And my mother wrote back to Calvin and my 17 Uncle Cabbage said that Milford was dead and then they 18 had some of the troops coming in in Piccadilly Square 19 where my uncle was playing darts and he seen Milford walk 20 by; he thought he'd seen a ghost. These are things that 21 happened within our family. 22 Q: Would it be fair to say, Mr. George, 23 that as a result of the treatment of your uncles, that 24 you've described as warriors upon their return, the loss 25 of the land base, your mother's relocation, that they

1 were frustrated; that they were upset by this? 2 A: Yeah, to an extent, but life goes on. 3 Like, my mother was one (1) of those ones that, you know, 4 she, I think, protected me to that part where she didn't 5 tell me what went on in -- in the residential school. 6 And I -- I don't even want to try and imagine, you know, 7 like a lot of horror stories there about, you know, what 8 took place to a lot of the children. 9 I don't think it's as bad as what happened 10 to my dad, but, you know, there's a -- there's a thing 11 there that my dad used to always, you know, say these 12 things, say if he was having a drink or something, that 13 he would always almost be in tears about that subject of 14 not having any inheritance for his boys. 15 Q: Okay. So he was frustrated by that 16 and he expressed that to you? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And do I understand you correctly 19 that your mother attempted to shield you from some of her 20 pain or frustration? 21 A: Yeah. I remember -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- I guess -- I guess it -- it -- it 24 started to come out more when they -- when they had wrote 25 this book about the mush hole (phonetic). And it was a

1 combination of, like, the school that was in Six Nations 2 that was a residential school that she had met a lot of 3 other kids and going through the same thing. 4 It was -- it was a tough subject for them 5 to talk about as to what happened and -- and I think that 6 some of -- some of that stuff that took place kind of 7 made them tougher -- give them a thicker skin type of 8 thing to... 9 Q: All right. And -- and just before we 10 leave this -- this area, you had told us about being onto 11 the lands as a child and engaged in various activities, 12 traditional pursuits, perhaps it can be described as; was 13 there -- was there -- first of all, was there fences 14 around that perimeter when you were a boy? 15 A: I -- I remember that -- that along 16 the front -- along the front there -- there used to be a 17 rickety old fence, eh? 18 Q: Okay. And you're indicating that 19 area adjacent to Highway 21? 20 A: Yeah. The 21 Highway and this here 21 was never a road there, so that was kind of like -- they 22 had a post. 23 Q: You're -- you're indicating again, 24 for the record, Mr. George, that which has been described 25 as Outer Drive on the western --

1 A: Yeah. On Outer Drive. And I 2 remember as a -- as a -- as a young -- young kid, this 3 here along -- I guess they call it West Ipperwash or Camp 4 Ipperwash Road -- that I remember as a kid there wasn't 5 no fence there at this particular time. 6 I -- I was here with my Uncle Abe and my 7 dad and my cousin Elwood. And they were -- I don't know 8 what they were doing, but we wanted to go into the -- 9 well, we used to go get stuff out of the dump, like nails 10 and stuff. We used to have to pick them up and take them 11 home and straighten them out because we were going to use 12 them to build a shed -- 13 Q: All right. 14 A: -- I remember at that particular day 15 there was a -- there was a soldier there that was in a 16 green -- like a little outhouse thing. It had a roof on 17 it and it was -- there wasn't no door, but it had a -- a 18 thing where you could sit on, but he was inside -- 19 Q: A guardhouse of some description? 20 A: It was like a small guardhouse, yeah. 21 And I seen right there that this guy and my dad and I 22 just come off of this road and started driving in there. 23 This guy come out and he had a -- he had a gun in his 24 hand. And I remember my -- my dad and my uncle, you 25 know, they -- they're telling this guy that, This -- this

1 is our land. 2 This is -- this belongs to us, and the 3 guy, Sorry, I can't let you in there and I -- I seen my - 4 - my dad and my uncle get mad because this guy's telling 5 them that they can't go on the land. And -- and I seen 6 that -- I think it was probably ten (10) -- fifteen (15) 7 minutes, my uncle and my dad made that soldier cry and he 8 - he just basically said, You want to go in there, go on 9 in there, I'm not going to stop you. 10 Q: And why -- why was the soldier crying 11 as far as you could understand at that time? 12 A: Because he -- I think he knew about 13 the -- the burial grounds because there was stone 14 sticking up and he knew that. And he knew that, you 15 know, the people in the area, you know, didn't really 16 like to -- to get into confrontations of any sort. 17 It was just, you know, like, when you want 18 to go gather something it was -- it was always put to my 19 parents that you had to go and ask somebody. You know, 20 you had to go the Band Office and ask somebody to go on 21 your land because they -- it -- it was being taken away 22 from my dad, my uncle and his family and there's other 23 ones, like Clifford and that were stripped of this. 24 See, this was the type of thing that -- 25 I'm kind of lost for words, as to how you -- how you view

1 when you -- you collectively go and you want to gather 2 something and somebody says you can't. 3 Well, even if there was fences like there 4 is today, it doesn't stop people from entering there and 5 gathering whatever it is they need to gather, whether it 6 be food or medicines or, you know. Sometimes it's just 7 where some people want to go and -- and -- you know, 8 offer tobacco or visit, you know, even just to go and 9 look at the old mounds that are in there. 10 Sometimes it -- it helps them to 11 understand, I guess, that that's where we all are going 12 to go some -- not so much in that one (1) mound, but you 13 go back to where you come from, I guess, in the ground 14 type of thing. 15 Q: Aside from that incident that you've 16 told us about where the soldier had initially attempted 17 to prevent your father, uncle, and yourself from coming 18 onto the land, are you aware, Mr. George, of any other 19 Military protests of being on the land? 20 Were you ever told or to your knowledge 21 were your folks ever told that they couldn't be on the 22 land? 23 A: There was a lot of things that went 24 on. I -- I could be here for days to tell you. Like, I 25 used to play hockey in this town of Forest. You know,

1 all my brothers did, too. 2 And I remember as -- as a young kid, I -- 3 you know, we -- we went down to the beach down there. I 4 remember there was a guy by the name of John Clark, they 5 called him Captain Clark, that used to manage hockey in 6 this town. 7 And they had a minor hockey beach party on 8 -- on the beach, like right in the centre -- right in the 9 centre of the beach, like right in this area right here. 10 Q: Okay. You're pointing to the area 11 that's adjacent to the -- to the reef -- 12 A: Yeah -- 13 Q: -- what you've described earlier as a 14 reef? 15 A: Yeah, there's a -- that's a reef 16 there. Like my dad told me that when you line up Kettle 17 Point and Blue Point there's a -- there's a thing about 18 five (5) miles out from this reef, there's shoal. 19 You see, and that's where they used to 20 fish, because that was one (1) of the things that -- you 21 know, in the -- when you look out there today, that's all 22 you see out there is trap nets all around that shoal and 23 that's kind of like where -- where's our fish? 24 You know? They basically got it cut off 25 so that you -- you're lucky to catch that, you know, net

1 full of fish anymore because the commercial fishing is -- 2 is basically over-fished and they -- 3 Q: Do I understand you that -- that your 4 father had explained to you where traditional fishing 5 grounds were as well? 6 A: Oh, yeah. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: It was -- 9 Q: Go ahead. 10 A: The -- the whole lake is those things 11 that were to be protected under our old ancient agreement 12 that, you know, it goes along that part of the safe 13 travel routes that, you know, our people made agreements. 14 I think it might be called the two (2) row 15 wampum, where -- you know, like our canoes can travel 16 with their boats in every waterway, highway, never to 17 cross, never to meet, never -- we would never impose 18 their laws on them and they would never impose their laws 19 on us. 20 And that we would share this -- this 21 country. 22 Q: And we've had some explanation of -- 23 of those historic agreements, Mr. George, by two (2) 24 experts that were called at the very outset of these 25 proceedings. So I think we do have some understanding

1 and appreciation of that. 2 I wonder if you might be able to comment 3 upon the activities, then, that you were engaged in by 4 way of the -- you've indicated you have walked to Ottawa, 5 for example. 6 I understand that you were involved in 7 other activities, again in the footsteps of your parents 8 in an attempt to try to reclaim these lands. What sort 9 of things were you involved with? 10 A: That, too, was another long story. I 11 remember hearing them talk about how do you do this in 12 that -- that political realm, that's out there? And I -- 13 I heard them talk about, you know, they -- they seen old 14 agreements, the peace agreements, like the treaty, again, 15 where they -- some of them had listed the league 16 (phonetic) subjects, whether they were sheriffs or 17 deputies or bailiffs. 18 And these things all, you know, like -- 19 like, I -- I heard them talk about, Maybe we got to serve 20 them with an eviction notice. And they used the bailiff 21 to do this. 22 They made letters out again, which they 23 had done, you know, around early '70s, they wrote to all 24 the politicians, whether they were at a provincial level, 25 local level or a federal level, and we done that again.

1 We done it again -- we done it again after we physically 2 moved onto the land. 3 Q: Okay. Just -- just let me stop you 4 there. I want -- I want you to focus, if you would, 5 please, on the letters that were written to the 6 politicians, as you've just described. 7 What was the nature of those letters? 8 What was the intention behind it? 9 A: The nature of the letters were to 10 bring that part of -- of an awareness of a promise that 11 was made. It was a letter to kind of, like, rekindle 12 that old fire that our people were still waiting for this 13 decision. I think it was one (1) of those things that 14 they -- they kind of made it known that, you know, that 15 there's another generation. 16 Basically, being told the same thing, that 17 they're going to do these things in that -- that peaceful 18 manner, to, I guess, wait for the war to get over. 19 There was a lot of things that were done 20 that they -- they still raise money. I don't know if the 21 -- if the lawyers ever get the money but I know that they 22 still do their fundraising. 23 It's not like, you know, multi-million 24 dollar things. It's, like, have a little bake sales and 25 stuff like that. That's still the way they raise money.

1 And they -- they've done things where 2 writing letters to -- to the different local politicians, 3 you know, like, I remember Marcel Beaubien and all -- all 4 of them. They were all sent letters. Even Jean 5 Chretien, you know, it was reminded to him that he was 6 the Indian agent in early '70s that -- the Indian Affairs 7 Minister that -- that had made the suggestion that they 8 should give the land back to the Stoney Point people. 9 And to find, you know, he -- he went on to 10 become Prime Minister. Again, it's like so easy to look 11 away to -- to have this -- this power to grant such a 12 thing, but yet ignore it. 13 Those -- those are the types of things 14 that -- that, you know, like, when -- when you, as a 15 child, see these letters right in front of you, that, you 16 know, you -- you gain this hope of, Oh, this guy is the 17 Prime Minister now and he -- he's going to help get your 18 land back. And you find that things like that, they -- 19 they come and go, just as -- 20 Q: And the walk to -- and the walk to 21 Ottawa, Mr. George, what was the intention behind that? 22 A: The intention, to me, I was -- I was 23 kind of put on the spot by the Elders. I just basically 24 said that I would do that. I would -- I would do that, I 25 -- I will walk for those ones that couldn't walk, I would

1 -- I would help in any way that I could. And it was a -- 2 it was a thing that -- it was a planned-out route to 3 every town. We had police escort. We had permission 4 from the -- their councils that we could take this route 5 to go through. 6 And, you know, we -- we told them we were 7 going to hand out little pamphlets. And they -- they 8 agreed. 9 Q: What did those pamphlets say? 10 A: We were walking for home. The Stoney 11 Point Long Walk for Home is what it was called. And it 12 was -- it was, again, like, it wasn't that people didn't 13 know every town that we went through, every city, you 14 know. Knowing the different place had different regions, 15 or the different police forces had given us, like, 16 escorts in -- in through the town and back to the 17 perimeters. 18 I think the -- maybe the OPP took on that 19 knowledge that we were going to Ottawa. It wasn't -- it 20 wasn't to go there to place threats or anything. It was 21 -- it was to try and, I guess, for the sake of it, to put 22 a face on those people that were making the decision as 23 to who was keeping the land from those people. 24 Q: Okay. And when you say that it 25 wasn't meant to go there to make threats and such, were

1 there discussions about the -- the nature of -- of the 2 walk, the way people would conduct themselves, the manner 3 in which the point that you were attempting to make would 4 be made? 5 A: Well, it was a thing of -- of 6 awareness, eh? Like, I know that there was -- there was 7 elders that were there, like, my uncle Cliff there, he 8 accompanied us all the way, you know. And he never -- he 9 never made no thing about needing a room or -- he slept 10 in his little pony car, you know. 11 And that was the thing that, you know, 12 like, when you -- when you're going to do these things 13 it's nice to have those old people as your witness; that 14 if somebody wants to question you, you have that right 15 there, you have your witness right there. 16 And it -- and it helped -- it helped to -- 17 to bring forth, I guess, an understanding with other 18 people, in those other communities, that not every 19 community had people there to greet us or, you know. 20 Like, we -- we weren't looking for that, we were -- we 21 were trying just to raise awareness. 22 But we did have that where people, you 23 know, they come out, they -- you know, they -- they had 24 some of their reporters. They had gifts, some had food, 25 some had -- you know they asked that, can we share a meal

1 with you, you know. Like, -- I -- I remember the -- we 2 were -- we were just outside of Toronto and the -- the 3 Mennonite Central Committee that -- that put us up in a - 4 - a summer camp, you know, and things just worked out. 5 Like my sister showed up with big pans of 6 lasagna and -- and Caesar salad and everybody had a great 7 big feast and she was just there to do that and she took 8 off. She had business elsewhere and things like that 9 happened. 10 Things -- you know, when you -- when you 11 do things in ceremony they -- they -- they fall together 12 perfect. There's no, like, questioning what it is that 13 we're doing. I might limp around today for -- I can 14 still feel my -- my knee aching from walking on the 15 lopsided shoulder of the road. But I look at it as, you 16 know, that's something that -- to me, that's nobody 17 else's business but my own, you know? 18 Q: And we're given to understand, Mr. 19 George, that the reason Ottawa was selected as a 20 destination, is that's where the politicians were -- the 21 Federal Politicians, in any event? 22 A: Exactly, yeah. 23 Q: And were you able to meet with them 24 and to -- to express to them the concerns that you 25 evidently reported along the way?

1 A: We tried to, but they had a media 2 blackout when we got there and there was no reporters, no 3 cameras, no radios, no nothing and it was a -- it was a 4 kind of thing that we expected that. 5 We didn't -- we didn't mope around. We 6 didn't -- we didn't get too excited about it because we 7 all knew that Indian Affairs building was located in Hull 8 and we didn't want to go demonstrate over there because 9 they don't allow demonstrations over there, and if you 10 do, they'll just basically shoot you. 11 And that's, kind of like, our 12 understandings that, you know, we knew what we were 13 doing. We had, you know, like, that part of a -- how do 14 you -- how do you word it, like -- like an understanding 15 of why we were doing this. And the reason we were doing 16 this was, you know, to try and find, like, who -- who are 17 these people that make those decisions because we were -- 18 we were trying to meet with them as -- as the youngs -- 19 youngsters that have grown up to -- to be adults. We 20 were trying to find, you know, some answers that would 21 justify their actions. 22 And that was the thing that I know on -- 23 on the way there, there was -- there was things like, I 24 remember just Peterborough, my -- my cousin, I -- I 25 received a message that my cousin had passed away. And

1 so I had to -- we had to go and get a rented car to give 2 my other cousins a ride home because that was their 3 uncle. And I wanted to stay just, you know, like, when I 4 made the statement that I would -- I would go and I'd see 5 this thing through, well, I had to go. 6 I had to go back and that was a six (6) 7 hour ride one (1) way, so in twelve (12) hours I was -- I 8 was back by Peter -- Peterborough area. And there was 9 things -- like that -- that was only one (1) incident, 10 but you know, it was a thing that sometimes you -- you 11 can't just march on down the road. Sometimes you've go 12 to pay your respects as you go. 13 Q: And the fact of the matter is, is 14 that you were unable, then, to meet with any Federal 15 officials? 16 A: None -- none of them were -- were 17 willing enough to meet with us, I think -- 18 Q: And because of the blackout that 19 you've told us about that there, in fact, was no media 20 coverage? 21 A: None, nothing, nobody from in that 22 building come out. Like it was -- it was a thing that -- 23 that I never been there before myself, but until that 24 day. I remember that it looked so -- so -- I'm lost for 25 words again, because I seen this fountain and there was

1 flames coming out it and -- and it kind of made that 2 thing about, holy, look at -- look at that, it's magic. 3 And I was walking up the -- the stairs as, 4 you know, we had -- we had our Aazhoodena flags and stuff 5 like that and eagle staff and we had a couple of pipes 6 that travelled with us. 7 I remember we got up so close and then 8 they looked up at this big, tall building and -- and you 9 look up and you see these -- these things poking out the 10 corners of -- of the building where you got these horns 11 and big fangs and what the heck is that? 12 We walked all the way here to -- you look 13 up and you -- they looked like these gargoyle things that 14 they put on TV, eh? I don't know what they are. They 15 look kind of -- 16 Q: Gargoyles. 17 A: -- scary looking, eh? And you'd kind 18 of question me if I was at the right place or not, so. 19 Q: And given the -- given the reception 20 that you received, I take it that there was -- in spite 21 of your -- your comment now that you didn't mope around 22 about it, was there not a certain sense of frustration? 23 A: Oh, yeah. It was -- it was thing 24 that we just hugged each other and we thanked each other 25 and you know, we -- we done what we could.

63
  1                 Q:   This happened in 1993, Mr. George?
  2                 A:   Gees, I'm lost for dates.  I think --
  3  yeah, I think it was '93.
  4                 Q:   I'm going to suggest to you that it
  5  was shortly thereafter, or in and around that time, that
  6  people took a more direct approach, if I can put it that
  7  way.
  8                 And that is that there was a move onto the
  9  actual Army Base, onto the range area, indeed, on May the
 10  6th of 1993.
 11                 A:   Yeah.  May 6th of '93 is the day that
 12  -- to me, dates when -- when I buried my dad in 1990 was
 13  a -- was a thing that I used to question myself.
 14                 Q:   Just let me interrupt you for a
 15  minute.  I've -- I've just been informed that, in fact,
 16  the walk occurred after the move onto the Army Base.
 17                 A:   Yeah.
 18                 Q:   All right.  So I stand corrected.
 19                 A:   I'll correct you next time if I --
 20                 Q:   Thank you.
 21                 A:   Okay.
 22                 Q:   Let me just -- let me just ask you
 23  about that incident of May the 6th of '93.  You were --
 24  you became aware, I take it at some point, that people
 25  moved on to the land?

1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Were you aware that -- of that 3 intention beforehand, Mr. George? 4 A: No, no, I -- I used to -- like I 5 say, I used to go the -- go to those meetings, you know 6 the -- the Locatee meetings, that again, it seemed like a 7 forever thing that they were meeting and nothing was 8 being done, eh? 9 And it was -- it was -- it wasn't like a 10 gathering to create scare tactics or anything like that. 11 It was -- it was always the -- you know, we got to put a 12 face on the politicians as to who is making these 13 decisions. 14 And I remember -- I remember that that 15 part of moving on to the -- the Camp because I was at 16 work that day and I -- I was working for the council on 17 Kettle Point doing fire hydrants, like, I done -- it was 18 about a hundred and twelve (112) fire hydrants on a 19 contract. 20 I was hired as a contractor and we 21 replaced, I think, about seventy (70) fire hydrants that 22 were just basically a valve with a pipe in the ground and 23 some of them were bent over and we put all new fire 24 hydrants in and we added, I think, about thirty (30) more 25 new ones.

1 And my contract being terminated, they 2 give me this other job of -- where the sub-division is 3 behind the mall on Kettle Point. And it was right at May 4 6th there that I -- I heard, like, there was people moved 5 into the Camp. 6 Like, it wasn't a surprise to me. I knew 7 they were going to do it some day, but I wasn't involved 8 in that -- in that day where they were going to go and do 9 this. 10 Q: Just let me stop there for a moment. 11 In terms of the discussions of the 12 locatees and that this move came as no surprise to you, 13 in the discussions where perhaps they talked about taking 14 that sort of action, was there ever any discussion about 15 the manner in which they would do that; that is to say, 16 to what lengths were they prepared to go? 17 A: Well, to me it was always they -- 18 it's like knowing that you had family with the local 19 police force that you -- you think that you were going to 20 receive some kind of internal input on their part, but I 21 -- I don't know what was ever said, nor do I ever seen 22 any kind of physical input. 23 There was always, you know, the -- the 24 verbal support of, Yeah, like, that's what was needed to 25 be done. And to me it was -- it was like -- working with

1 my mom, this -- this is, you know, October 1990 I buried 2 my dad. And then May 6 of '93 was, you know, roughly two 3 (2) years after, that to me, I knew what it was going to 4 take if those people were to move in there then. 5 When I got home from work that day my -- 6 my mother had all these -- these sandwiches and cakes and 7 these coffee thermoses, and she had tea and coffee, she 8 had water, and she had all this stuff all packaged up. 9 And she -- she told me, she said that, Marlin and Kevin 10 are in there, you better go look after them, so, and 11 still there today. 12 Q: So, you didn't go in as part of the 13 original -- or initial group, rather? 14 A: No. I -- I went down there after 15 they were already in there and when I got there it was -- 16 there was a lot of people that, you know, they were kind 17 of viewing how they were going to spend the night. I 18 know they -- they kind of had this -- this look about 19 them that, You're not going to leave, are you, you know, 20 when I got there. I just got here, you know, and they're 21 -- they're already hinting around that, You're not going 22 to leave, eh. 23 So, I stayed there with them. 24 Q: Are you aware, Mr. George, that there 25 had been, prior to -- prior to this event and indeed

1 prior to -- let's just say prior to this event, that 2 there had been other entries onto the land for ceremonial 3 purposes; are you aware of any of that? 4 A: Oh, yeah. Like, I remember just 5 after we moved onto the -- the ranges, which is probably 6 -- would be around the long weekend in May there, 7 probably two (2) weeks later maybe, that they -- they 8 were living on the one side of this steel bridge, along 9 Highway 21. 10 And I remember there were -- there was 11 things that were happening within the group, that some -- 12 some people were coming and going and they weren't 13 sharing in some of the work, so, you know, gathering 14 wood, that kind of stuff. That -- I remember at that 15 time I went -- I went in I seen my Uncle Abe and -- and I 16 asked him to -- I want you to show me exactly where this 17 homestead was, because I -- I didn't want to get into 18 that part of bickering about who lived where and stuff 19 like that. 20 And that's when my uncle Abe came with me 21 and he -- he showed me where the house was, where the 22 barn was, where the shed was, where the well was. And 23 that was the -- the time, right then and there, that he 24 says, You've got to dig that well out, like, the Army 25 filled in our -- our whole homestead well, and now -- now

1 you've got to dig it out. 2 And I -- I feel kind of, you know, like, 3 being a hypocrite that -- that I didn't dig that well 4 out. It -- it hasn't been done yet, you know. I was 5 told to do something and I guess I'm only human, eh. 6 Like, maybe I got to go start digging it, you know, in 7 the spring type of thing, eh. 8 Q: When you -- when you went into the -- 9 to the range area to join the others that went in on May 10 the 6th, where did you stay? 11 A: I went in and like there was a -- 12 there's a creek along 21 Highway there, some of them 13 called one (1) of the creeks Mud Creek and the other one 14 was, like, I think they called it Golden Rod Creek, I -- 15 I forget. But anyway, it was -- it was on that one (1) 16 side there, eh, and then they had a tent there, but I 17 just slept in my car because I had to go to work in the 18 morning. 19 Q: And how long did you stay in your car 20 when you would go to work the next morning? 21 A: I would say it was right around that 22 time, like from May 6th to -- to around May 24 weekend 23 was, I think, about all that I could handle because the - 24 - the Council was kind of giving me the run-around 25 because I was working on the reserve and I was living on

1 the Camp and then, I don't know, it just seemed like I -- 2 I guess my -- my priority was more to the -- to helping 3 those people at the Camp than it was running a 4 construction crew. 5 Q: Okay. So do I take it from that that 6 you then moved onto the range on a more permanent basis, 7 that is, other than in your vehicle? 8 A: Yeah. It was -- it well, I had to go 9 get my uncle to help me on that, eh, because I -- I 10 needed to hear from him, like, reassurance as to where 11 the property was, eh? And that's basically what he did 12 and it was a thing that, you know, he -- he kind of took 13 that as the people needed that too, was to have, you 14 know, people that had this knowledge there -- right then 15 and there, you know, like, to have that witness, I guess. 16 Q: And I take it that you had built, 17 then, a more permanent type of a -- a dwelling? 18 A: Yeah. There was -- like, we -- we 19 had a cook shack, eh? Like, it had, like a tarp and we 20 had, like a tripod that we had for cooking over an open 21 fire and we had propane cookers like, you know, like -- 22 like a stove out of a trailer that was just a -- like a 23 hot plate. And we had those, that run by propane, and we 24 had, at that same time, a bus that was given to us by my 25 brother that he was going to use it for storing parts in

1 and it was still licenced to go on the road, eh? 2 I remember my -- my nephew was going to 3 use that for his living quarters, eh, and I remember 4 there was tents. It was like tent city. There was lots 5 of tents and I think at that -- at that same time, we 6 were busy, like we had been given some trailers that, you 7 know after the walk the -- the first place where we 8 stayed, there was a German family had given us this 9 trailer and after we got back from Ottawa we -- they let 10 us use a tractor and we brought it to the Camp. 11 I remember the Bailiff had a couple of 12 trailers that were being, I think -- I don't know if he 13 was -- if he was repossessing them or if they would just 14 give them to him, but, I mean, I helped dismantle them 15 and get them roadworthy to drag them down the road and 16 give the one (1) trailer to Dudley and there was some 17 young people that wanted to live in the other one, that 18 they were given a place to live, and that was the first 19 winter. 20 Q: When you say the -- "the Bailiff" 21 you're referring to -- 22 A: Scott Ewart was -- 23 Q: All right. 24 A: -- the -- the guy that served them 25 with the eviction notice.

1 Q: He had served the Military with an 2 eviction notice on -- 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: -- the behest of -- 5 A: It was on behalf of the people from - 6 - you know, the -- the Stoney Point people were -- were, 7 I guess, always being pecked at where, you know, you're - 8 - were you from Kettle Point or were you from Stoney 9 Point? And to me, I'm -- my home will always be Kettle 10 Point, like that's the way I look at it, you know? 11 Like, I might live in -- in the Army Camp, 12 which is where my dad was born and raised, but you know, 13 I -- I grew up in Kettle Point, and you know, I -- I 14 honoured my dad's wish of going home, so you know, 15 sometimes I think I got to go home with him to look after 16 him and make sure nobody's going to dig him up, type of 17 thing. 18 Q: All right. I want to move, Mr. -- 19 Mr. George, to the relationship between the people on the 20 range and the Military and I'd -- I'd like to do that 21 after the break if I may, Mr. Commissioner, which perhaps 22 is an appropriate time now. 23 But maybe before we do that, I just want 24 to ask you, Mr. George, what the mood was among the 25 people that were living on the range, at that point?

1 A: I thought it was like -- there -- 2 there was a lot of people that were kind of looking at me 3 because I not so much walked off the job on Kettle Point, 4 it was -- I left that job in the hands of all these, 5 like, my older brother and my -- my cousins Kenny and Rob 6 that had basically taught me everything. 7 That I left that part with them and -- and 8 -- you know, they finished the job. They -- they got, 9 you know, more experience I think than I do, it's just 10 that I found myself being plucked into a -- you know, a 11 role of making sure I'm going to see this thing through, 12 type of thing. 13 And that was the feeling, the feelings 14 like when we left this little parcel of land on the one 15 side of the creek, that I -- I got my -- my uncle has 16 shown me where the homestead was, well, that's where our 17 camp's going to be then. 18 And hopefully my grandma and my grandpa 19 and all their siblings and all their grandchildren and 20 that will come there, you know, to check it out, you know 21 and -- 22 Q: And again, Mr. George, the feeling or 23 the mood among the -- among the people that were going 24 back onto the range or that had moved back onto the 25 range; what -- what was it?

1 A: I think it was more of an inspiration 2 because it was like I seen, you know, Mr. Cliff take that 3 initiation tool that, you know, he -- he's going to go 4 back too, where he remembers his homestead being. 5 You know, and I remember we had a -- we 6 had a little sweat going there right -- he had a trailer 7 and he had it under the tree. And then we had -- we had 8 the lodge there that one night and I remember he even 9 moved it up closer towards the barracks that, you know, 10 that -- that was the part of the inspiration that I think 11 that was going on within that -- the people in the -- in 12 the Camp there was that they were not so much being 13 encroached upon that day, we were doing the encroaching 14 and I -- I thought that was pretty cool to -- to see, you 15 know, old warriors doing that, you know what I mean? 16 Q: Well, we'll leave it at that and 17 after the break we'll come back to that point. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 23 for fifteen (15) minutes. 24 25 --- Upon recessing at 10:35 a.m.

1 --- Upon resuming at 10:52 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 4 resumed. Please be seated. 5 MR. DONALD WORME: If I may just have a 6 moment, Mr. Commissioner. I see my witness has stepped 7 away briefly. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME: 12 Q: Mr. George, when we left off you had 13 indicated that you had moved back to the homestead, I 14 think as you put it, that your uncle had showed you, 15 that is, the homestead on the -- on the range area. 16 I think you've already indicated that to 17 be immediately adjacent to the west of what is described 18 as the rifle range, on the diagram marked as Exhibit P- 19 40? 20 A: Hmm hmm, yeah. 21 Q: During that -- that time when the 22 folks moved onto that range, what was the relationship 23 with the Military, who was also obviously still on the -- 24 on the land? They were occupying the built up area. 25 What was the relationship with the

1 Military? 2 A: I just seen them as they were still 3 there, type of thing, and I know a lot of -- a lot of the 4 people used to ask them, Why are you -- are you still 5 here or, Why are you here or ,You haven't left yet? 6 Q: Was there any discussion with the 7 Military? Did you have any discussion with any Military 8 personnel, for example? 9 A: Not in any -- like what's the term, 10 formal. 11 Q: Not any formal discussions? 12 A: No. 13 Q: What about informal discussions? 14 A: There was informal ones in the -- in 15 the area of, like, the sections of lands that were viewed 16 as, like, private property. Being like a homestead is -- 17 is sort of like a -- that's a family interest in that 18 particular parcel of land type of thing. That -- 19 Q: So, you're telling us that there 20 would be informal discussions with Military personnel 21 where it would be related, this was original homestead 22 sort of thing? Is that -- 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: Am I understanding you right? 25 A: Yeah. And whatever they -- they --

1 Q: And who would these discussions be 2 with? 3 A: They were kind of like the patrols 4 that the Military had, doing perimeter -- perimeter 5 checks on -- on the property. 6 Q: Did you become familiar with these 7 persons -- Military personnel doing the -- doing the 8 patrols? 9 A: I got to know some of them, I didn't 10 get to know all of them, like, they changed. Some of 11 them had, I guess, been stationed in different places and 12 some would show up for, I don't know, a little while and 13 I never really got to have too much to do with them. 14 Q: What about anybody in superior rank 15 to those that were doing patrol? 16 A: They possibly could have been there. 17 I -- I never -- 18 Q: And I'm talking just about the early 19 days in 1993 -- in and around May '90 -- '93 in the -- in 20 the weeks following that. 21 A: Like -- I -- like I said, I -- I -- I 22 found out from my mom that the people moved onto the land 23 and to me I -- I guess, getting there later never really, 24 I guess, got approached as being one (1) of those ones 25 that were there moving onto the land.

1 Like, I remember a couple of times being 2 asked who I was and stuff like that, eh, where I remember 3 responding to them that this is, you know, after we moved 4 their camp was, This is the homestead of my grandpa and 5 my grandma. 6 Q: Okay. One (1) of the patrol officers 7 was an individual by the name of Daniel Peterson. Are 8 you familiar with that individual at all, Mr. George? 9 A: No. 10 Q: I can tell you that he supplied a -- 11 a statement and it is Inquiry Document 1004489, where he 12 reports that he had an incident involving yourself. Does 13 that assist you at all? 14 A: No. 15 Q: In fact, that -- that he suggests in 16 his report -- well, he doesn't suggest, he reports that 17 he's had several run-ins with you and on one (1) occasion 18 that you were -- you had to be subdued with pepper spray. 19 A: I've never been pepper sprayed in my 20 life. 21 Q: All right. He reports that he was 22 with Master Seaman Hudson. Does that name at all -- 23 A: No. 24 Q: -- ring a bell for you? 25 A: No.

1 Q: And this -- and this apparently was 2 at the same time when you were pepper sprayed. 3 A: Like, again, I've never been pepper - 4 - pepper sprayed, so I don't know what they would be 5 talking about. 6 Q: They describe your -- or Military 7 Personnel Peterson and I'm sorry, I don't know his rank 8 just off hand, reports that typically, and I quote: 9 "Typically Glenn had been drinking and 10 had a group of four (4) or five (5) 11 people with him." 12 Do you have any response to that? 13 A: I've been sober ever since I moved 14 there on May 6th of '93. So I don't know what this 15 person is talking about. 16 Q: Okay. And when you say, "sober", you 17 -- you're telling us that you haven't consumed alcohol 18 since May 6th of '93? 19 A: Yeah, that's what I give up with I 20 went to live there. 21 Q: All right. You did have an incident, 22 though, Mr. George, with -- that had something to do with 23 a spike belt; it flattened the -- the tires of your 24 employer's truck? 25 A: Yeah, that would be --

1 Q: I believe Marlin Simon had testified 2 of an incident occurring some time around November of 3 '94? 4 A: Yeah. I was -- I was employed by 5 William Johnson Construction (phonetic). That's a guy 6 that my -- my dad used to work for him and work -- he 7 worked for his dad. It was like a -- like a family 8 thing. 9 Like, I knew his family just like, you 10 know -- my cousin Sam, he used to work for him too. And 11 that we used to have, like, a -- when you work in the 12 same type of business you have, you know, like a -- it's 13 like a family type of setting. You work together and 14 that's -- that's who I was working for at the time. 15 Q: Okay. You had an incident with the 16 OPP at that time? 17 A: No. It was them who had an incident 18 with me. I was minding my own business. 19 Q: Let's -- let's have you describe the 20 incident they had with you then. 21 A: Well, at that -- at that time, I -- I 22 remember that we're -- like, I spoke of that -- that 23 road, the Bluewater Highway that -- that runs kind of 24 parallel with 21 Highway, there's a -- there's a row of 25 walnut trees and -- and the trailer that was up here, we

1 would -- used to say Dudley's place -- 2 Q: You're indicating, if I -- if I may, 3 Mr. George, to the west of the rifle range? 4 A: Yeah. It was -- it was the trailer 5 right -- right here and it was -- it was across on this 6 other road that we were -- the trailer used to have a 7 wood stove in it and we used to make a fire. It used to 8 get so hot in there that the front door was open in the 9 middle of winter, it would be snowing out and -- anyways, 10 to cool it off in there, hey. 11 I remember -- I remember at this time we 12 had the -- the door open, we could see the OPP cruiser 13 down here, on that -- on that road that runs by the 14 walnut trees. 15 Q: You're indicating an area south of 16 Highway 21, south of the rifle range area? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: I guess it's -- I don't really know 20 the name of the road but it's got walnut trees on it, 21 hey. It's kind of like in -- in that parallel with 21 22 Highway. And I could see that cruiser from the trailer 23 that was there. 24 So -- what happened I think was we went 25 down the road and there was an entrance right here. We

1 went down Army Camp Road and the next thing we know, 2 there was a whole slew of police all through these roads, 3 all -- all the way around, even on the perimeters of it 4 there was -- 5 Q: And, again, just for the record, Mr. 6 George, pardon me but you are pointing to the various 7 roads that run inside the Military Base? 8 A: Yeah. They were inside too. There 9 was cruisers all over. That's -- I don't know, like, I - 10 - I kind of thought it was normal because of the -- like, 11 during, I guess, the May 2/4 weekend is usually when they 12 bring more police for Grand Bend. The Grand Bend has, I 13 think, probably about a population of seven (7) to eight 14 hundred (800) people and in summertime it shoots up to 15 over twenty thousand (20,000). 16 And so, that's what we kind of take as -- 17 like it has been in the past, where they used to bring in 18 more officers for patrol in the areas, hey. That's what 19 I understood that was. 20 But this is kind of like in November. I - 21 - I kind of wondered why -- why are they here now, you 22 know what I mean. 23 Q: So what was the incident? 24 A: The incident was I guess they -- they 25 wanted to pull me over for some reason, I don't know.

1 And I came down from the trailer on 21 Highway, I went 2 down this road and they followed me in. They -- they 3 followed me all along these roads, all throughout the 4 Camp, all of them. 5 We got to different corners and there was 6 one (1) or two (2) cruisers on that corner, so I had to 7 go this way. And, you know, I wasn't racing around. You 8 know, they were right behind me. And I remember going up 9 the front and went by Terry's trailer and by Clifford's, 10 and at that time there wasn't nobody awake, so I just 11 drove by. 12 And I remember coming up that hill -- 13 there's a -- there's a hill right in this area they -- 14 they call Moses Hill (phonetic), that's -- Moses was my 15 grandfather Bob's brother. That's where he lived and 16 that's why they called it Moses Hill. 17 And that's where I remember me and Marlin 18 were just go