1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 December 9th, 2004 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )    (np)
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  
  7  Murray Klippenstein ) (np)       The Estate of Dudley 
  8  Vilko Zbogar       ) (np)       George and George
  9  Andrew Orkin       )  (np)      Family Group
 10  Basil Alexander    )
 11  Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )   (np)       Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stoney
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Sue Freeborn     )   (np)
 25  Michelle Pong    )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (Np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 11  
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  
 15  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 16  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 17  
 18  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 19  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 20  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 21  
 22  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 23  Karen Jones      )              Police Association &
 24  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 25  Ian McGilp       )   (np)

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  
  7  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
  8  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
  9  
 10  William Horton   )              Chiefs of Ontario
 11  Matthew Horner   )   (np)
 12  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 13  
 14  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 15  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 16  
 17  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 18  Anna Perschy     )
 19  Melissa Panjer   )   (np)
 20  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 21  
 22  
 23  
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 WARREN GEORGE, Jr., Resumed 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Basil Alexander 7 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 9 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 17 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 131 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Douglas Sulman 147 12 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 151 13 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 160 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-113 Photographs from OPP Photo Brief 70 4 0012, 0014, 0017, 0619, 0482, 0724, 5 0723 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon convening at 9:03 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DONALD WORME: Yes, good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 MR. DONALD WORME: Mr. Warren George 11 remains on the stand and of course he can be reminded by 12 The Registrar that he remains under oath as well. 13 14 WARREN GEORGE Jr., Resumed 15 16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Mr. George, you are 17 still under oath. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 20 are starting with the Estate. 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 23 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 24 A: Good morning. 25 Q: My name is Basil Alexander and I

1 represent the Estate of Dudley George and several members 2 of the George family, including Sam George, who is 3 sitting here beside me. I just want to explore one area 4 briefly with you. 5 By way of background to my question, we've 6 heard evidence earlier in this Inquiry that the Ipperwash 7 Parklands were guaranteed to your people forever in the 8 Treaty of 1827. 9 However, we've also heard evidence that 10 the Parklands had been given up by your people in a 11 surrender vote in 1928. Then we heard expert historical 12 evidence that in the case of Indian land surrenders in 13 this period of time, people were under extreme pressure 14 and influence from Federal Government Indian Agents, and 15 that it was very, very difficult for any First Nation to 16 successfully resist pressure to surrender their land. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 18 Are you paying attention to all this? 19 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to, yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Carry on. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. BASIL ALEXANDER: 23 Q: Do you personally have any knowledge 24 yourself, about the circumstances of that supposed 25 surrender of the Parklands in 1928?

1 A: No, I don't. 2 Q: Thank you, Mr. George, I have no 3 further questions. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 5 very much. I think -- who's next up? I think you will 6 be, the OPP, Andrea? Andrea Tuck-Jackson? 7 MR. DONALD WORME: It will be Mr. Downard 8 -- I see Ms. Tuck-Jackson is rising. 9 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good morning 10 Commissioner. 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 13 Q: Good Morning Mr. George. 14 A: Morning. 15 Q: My name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson and I 16 am here today on behalf of the OPP. 17 Sir, you gave evidence yesterday about the 18 fact that in May of 1993 a number of people from Stony 19 Point returned to the Army Base to reclaim their land and 20 occupied the ranges, the rifle ranges. 21 And I'm going to suggest to you, sir, that 22 during the period when you lived in that part of what has 23 previously been described as Camp Ipperwash or the Base, 24 at no time did you witness the OPP attempting to oust the 25 occupiers from that land.

1 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. You've also described the 3 period towards the end of July of 1995 when a number of 4 occupiers pushed onward and moved on to the built-up 5 area, what's been described by some as the built-up area 6 of the same property. 7 And again I'm going to suggest to you, 8 sir, at no time did you witness anyone in the OPP 9 attempting to oust any of the Occupiers from that portion 10 of Camp Ipperwash. 11 A: No, I didn't. 12 Q: Thank you. You've told us, sir, that 13 you participated in the initial entry into the Park on 14 September the 4th, 1995, and as I understand your 15 evidence, you left the Park at about 7:30 that night. 16 Do I have that correct? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. I also understand, sir, that 19 you did not return to the Park property on September the 20 5th? 21 A: No. 22 Q: And I understand, sir, that you did 23 come back, however, onto the Park property around 7:30 24 p.m. on September the 6th? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Would you agree with me, sir, that at 2 no time on September the 6th, when you were on that Park 3 property did you observe an OPP officer within the Park? 4 A: No, I didn't. 5 Q: Thank you. And specifically, sir, in 6 relation to the period of the later evening of September 7 the 6th, would you agree with me, sir, that the only 8 point when there was any physical confrontation between 9 an OPP officer and one (1) of the Occupiers, was when one 10 (1) of the Occupiers was in the sandy parking lot? 11 A: Could you repeat the question, 12 please? 13 Q: I certainly can. I'm suggesting to 14 you, sir, that the only time when there was any physical 15 confrontation, on the evening of the 6th, between an OPP 16 officer and one (1) of the Occupiers, was when an 17 Occupier entered the sandy parking lot? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Now, I'd like to focus if I can, sir, 20 about your observations upon your return to the Park at 21 7:30 p.m. on September the 6th. 22 And we've heard evidence, sir, that not 23 long after 7:30 p.m. there was a confrontation involving 24 Stewart George and Gerald George near the intersection of 25 Army Camp Road and East Parkway Drive.

1 Did you witness any such confrontation? 2 A: No. 3 Q: All right. When you arrived at the 4 Park around 7:30 you described seeing people around a 5 campfire eating some dinner. Did you remain in that 6 area? Where did you go? 7 A: I remained about in that area. 8 Q: Okay. At any point following your 9 arrival in the Park, did you return to the built-up area 10 down near the barracks? At -- at -- prior to the 11 shooting? 12 A: I don't recall. I -- I don't think 13 so, though. 14 Q: Okay. When you were in then, the 15 Park area following your arrival at 7:30, did you observe 16 -- and I'm going to -- to restrict first of all the time 17 frame to, say, 7:30 until nine o'clock -- 9:30 at night? 18 Did you observe -- and I can tell you 19 we've heard evidence that -- that, indeed, there were 20 some Occupiers in that sandy parking lot. Did you 21 observe any Occupiers in the sandy parking lot between 22 7:30 and ten o'clock at night? 23 A: I would have to say, Yes. 24 Q: Okay. We've also heard evidence, 25 sir, that in the earlier part of the evening, some more

1 towards, again, for your purposes focussing towards the 2 7:30 time frame -- we've heard evidence that some 3 Occupiers that were in the sandy parking lot were armed 4 with some form of stick or club. 5 And can you assist us, sir, as to whether 6 or not any of the individuals whom you saw in the parking 7 lot were carrying such items? 8 A: I don't believe so. 9 Q: From what you could observe? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And again, moving on to a 12 different time frame, we've also heard, sir, evidence 13 that between 10:00 p.m. and 11:00 p.m. in that time 14 frame, there were occupiers situated in that sandy 15 parking lot. 16 Can you assist us as to whether or not you 17 observed such occupiers in the parking lot at that time? 18 A: There may have been, yes. 19 Q: Thank you. You spoke, sir, yesterday 20 of fires that were burning, and as I understood, in the 21 Park property. In particular you identified a fire that 22 was close to the fence line of the Park. 23 The fence line between the Park and the 24 sandy parking lot, is that correct? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And you -- I believe you also 2 described a fire down by the beach. Do I have that 3 correct? 4 A: I don't recall. 5 Q: All right. Apart from the fire that 6 you described being approximate to the fence line, well 7 actually -- let me just backup for a minute. 8 How close was that fire to that fence 9 line? 10 A: I don't recall. 11 Q: Okay. Apart from that fire, we've 12 heard evidence that there were other fires in the Park 13 property. 14 Do you recall any other fires on the Park 15 property? 16 A: Yes. But not a specific area. 17 Q: Okay. So in other words you recall 18 that there were other fires burning, but you can't assist 19 us as to there location. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: We've also heard evidence, sir, that 22 there was a fire that had been started south of the Park, 23 still on the property of what has been described as Camp 24 Ipperwash, but further down the road that parallels Army 25 Camp Road, on the interior of that fence line.

1 Do you recall -- or can you assist us as 2 to whether or not you observed that fire? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You do recall that fire? 5 A: Sort of, yes. 6 Q: Okay. Fair enough. And I trust, 7 sir, as best as you can recall and I appreciate it's a 8 long time ago now, I'm going to suggest to you that that 9 fire that was burning, south of the Park, that was 10 something new in the sense that you hadn't noticed that 11 on the 4th. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Well you told us, sir, that you were 14 not at the Park on the 5th. I trust that you remained 15 out of town for the entirety of the 5th. 16 A: Out of town? 17 Q: Well this is what I wanted to 18 clarify. I had been left with the impression that you 19 were out working, but I wasn't clear whether or not you 20 returned to Camp Ipperwash at all on the 5th. 21 I know that you didn't go to the Park, but 22 I wasn't sure whether you went to the base. 23 A: I spent two (2) nights at my Uncle 24 Roy's. 25 Q: Okay. That answers my question then,

1 thank you. You also indicated in your evidence that on 2 the evening of the 6th, you were able to hop back and 3 forth between the parking lot and the Park itself. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And I trust, sir, that that was a 6 result of the fact that the fence had been flattened down 7 such that you could easily climb over it? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I anticipate, sir, that -- that 10 we're going to hear evidence about automobile traffic 11 going between the parking lot and the Park itself, on the 12 evening of the 6th. 13 Can you assist us, sir, as to whether or 14 not you observed any vehicles moving between the parking 15 lot and the Park, over that fence line, following your 16 arrival that night? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. You also indicated, sir, 19 yesterday that you became aware on the evening of the 6th 20 of a decision that the women and the children ought to be 21 moved out of the Park area. Do you recall that evidence? 22 A: Partially, yes. 23 Q: Okay. And I trust, sir, that was the 24 first that you had heard of any need to be moving women 25 and children, out of the Park?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: So in other words, on the 4th there 3 wasn't any apparent concern for the presence of women or 4 children in the Park, as far as you were aware? 5 A: As far as I was aware, yes. 6 Q: Thank you, sir, those are my 7 questions. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 9 very much. Ms. Karen Jones...? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 14 Q: Good morning, Mr. George, my name's 15 Karen Jones and I'm one (1) of the lawyers for the 16 Ontario Provincial Police Association. 17 A: Good morning. 18 Q: Good morning. Mr. George, usually 19 when we ask questions we try to sort of do them in 20 chronological order, but I'm going to start a little bit 21 differently. I want to go to, after, the confrontation 22 on September the 6th. So, I'm going to start backwards. 23 Just -- sorry, I just want to let you know 24 what -- the kind of questions I'm going to be asking you 25 because sometimes it helps you get your mind oriented.

1 Okay? 2 And you had told Mr. Worme that at some 3 point in time you had a tractor backhoe in the Park and 4 you moved some cement blocks along the fence line and you 5 also dug a hole at the end of the fence line, closest to 6 the beach? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Remember that? And I -- I just -- I 9 think it got clarified, but just to be sure, this all 10 happened after the confrontation on September the 6th? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Yeah? And, in terms of helping the 13 Commission understand the events after September 6th, can 14 you tell us where you got the backhoe from? 15 A: My dad. 16 Q: Okay. And was it in the Park or in 17 the Base at the time or did you bring it in especially 18 for that? 19 A: I believe I had it in the Base up by 20 my house. 21 Q: Okay. And you told us yesterday that 22 you did -- you got the backhoe and you moved the blocks 23 and you dug the hole on someone's instructions, but you 24 couldn't recall who it was? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Who -- who told you? We heard some 2 evidence earlier from Roderick George that after the 3 shooting and after Layton Elijah got to the Park, that he 4 directed the Occupiers in preparing defences around the 5 Park. 6 Was it Layton Elijah that would have given 7 you instructions on what to do and how to do it? 8 A: It may have been. 9 Q: Okay. And we understand that Layton 10 Elijah is from Oneida? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I think we heard at the time he 13 was a war chief for the Oneidas. Did you know that? 14 A: I believe so. 15 Q: Yeah. And just to fill out the 16 picture a little bit, Mr. George, I'm wondering if you 17 can help us in terms of understanding some of the other - 18 - either defensive activities or some of the other things 19 that went on -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me -- 21 MS. KAREN JONES: -- after -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me, 23 Ms. Jones, Mr. Scullion has an objection. 24 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: If I may, Mr. 25 Commissioner. We've gone on a little bit here, I thought

1 it was going to be pulled back to before September 6th. 2 It seems to all be painting a picture 3 after the shooting and I'd submit that that's irrelevant 4 to the considerations for the -- this Commission. It's 5 dealing with what happened after the shooting of Dudley 6 George and I'd submit that that's -- that's taking us 7 astray. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We're in the 9 period right after. I mean, we're not -- I'm not sure 10 where. I think you are -- 11 MS. KAREN JONES: I am dealing with the 12 picture right after, Mr. Commissioner, and I think it's 13 really important -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 15 MS. KAREN JONES: -- for the Commission 16 to know what happened and especially so you know what 17 happened and you'll hear evidence down the road about the 18 SIU investigation and what it found and when it found it 19 and I think it's really important -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 MS. KAREN JONES: -- that you know the 22 activities that went on between September the 6th and 23 September the 19th. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 25 it is, too. I think it is, too --

1 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Mr. 3 Scullion. I think it's close enough to the event, it's 4 really almost a part of it. Carry on. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 7 Q: And, Mr. George, in order to, sort of 8 see what we're talking about, I'm going to ask Mr. Millar 9 if he can put some pictures up on the screen beside you, 10 so you're going to have to turn around just a little bit 11 so you can see the screen. 12 And the first picture that Mr. Millar's 13 going to put up is from the OPP Photo Brief, and it's 14 Picture No. 12. And just so you know, Mr. George, we're 15 going to hear some evidence, I anticipate, that about 16 September the 19th the SIU and others came and took 17 pictures. 18 And so I wanted to show you some of those 19 pictures and I wanted to see if I could get your comments 20 on them. 21 Eighteenth, okay. And just to correct the 22 record, the SIU investigation started on September the 23 18th. Some of the things they looked at were on the 24 19th, but it did start on the 18th. 25 And also the OPP took some pictures and I

1 anticipate that we'll hear about that as well, and hear 2 that these pictures were taken after also. 3 But this picture, which is Photo 0012, is 4 a picture facing south from the road showing the entrance 5 to Army Camp Road; do you recognize that? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: And if we could also see the next 9 picture, which is the OPP Photo Brief No. 14. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are these 11 the pictures that are already exhibits, Ms. Jones? 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. 13 MS. KAREN JONES: No, they're not. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, these 15 aren't. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: No. And perhaps, Mr. 17 Commission, we could make them exhibits. I'm going to 18 show a bunch and I can sort of give the list at the end 19 and we can -- we can do that. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 24 Q: Sorry, Mr. George, this sometimes 25 takes a few minutes to get organized.

1 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: And this again, which is Photo 14, is 5 another picture of the sandy parking lot, facing south, 6 showing the entrance to the road on the right in the Park 7 boundary on the left; do you recognize that? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And there is another one which 10 is from the OPP Photo Brief No. 17. And can we see that 11 just a little bit bigger? I'm asking for a lot here. 12 Okay. 13 And, again, this is another picture 14 showing the entrance and -- and do you recognize that 15 picture? Again, it should be the sandy parking lot 16 facing south showing the curve of Army Camp Road in East 17 Parkway Drive. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And the next picture that I 20 was wanting to show you is actually an Exhibit, it's 21 Exhibit P-24 and it's Number 18. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And what we see here, Mr. George, is

1 we see one of the -- it looks like one of the cement 2 blocks that you had moved in with the back-hoe. And then 3 the sandy pile on the right which would be at the south 4 end. Do you recognize that? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Now I understand, Mr. George, 7 that during the course of the confrontation on September 8 the 6th, that there would have been a lot of rocks and 9 sticks and bricks and other things thrown in and around 10 the sandy parking lot area? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Yeah. And when we look at those 13 pictures, Mr. George, it -- you don't see any of that 14 debris, do you agree with me? 15 A: There's rocks right there. 16 Q: Okay. I take it though that during 17 the confrontation there were probably hundreds of rocks 18 or bricks or sticks thrown into the sandy parking lot? 19 A: That number may be a little high. 20 Q: Okay. What -- do you agree with me, 21 Mr. George, that in the course of the week or so after 22 the confrontation on September the 6th, and while you 23 were using the back-hoe and other things were going on, 24 that a lot of the material that was in the sandy parking 25 lot got cleaned up or got moved? Is that fair?

1 A: Only shell casings from the guns. 2 Q: Okay. Can we -- then look at the 3 next picture which is from the OPP photo brief number 4 619? 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: I anticipate, Mr. George, that we 9 will hear evidence that when the SIU went to look at the 10 area on September the 18th, that they found bunkers, 11 essentially by the grassy nolle, as we've been calling 12 it, which if you turn around right behind you is that 13 area at the south end of the sandy parking lot. 14 And I wanted to ask you, did you use your 15 back-hoe to dig those bunkers? 16 A: The south end you're talking right 17 here? 18 Q: Yes, the south end. 19 A: I don't recall digging a hole there, 20 no. 21 Q: Okay. Did you see anyone after 22 September the 6th digging holes or fox holes in that 23 area? 24 A: I don't believe so, no. 25 Q: Okay. And if we can then go onto the

1 next picture which is, let's see -- actually if we can go 2 back to the Exhibit P-24-18. I'm sorry, Mr. Millar. 3 Okay. Now I think you told us that you had 4 moved a sand pile at -- into the south end of the sandy 5 parking lot? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And is that where -- is that 8 the sand pile that we're looking at at the right-hand 9 side of that picture? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And where did you get the sand 12 from to move in that area? 13 A: It was drifted up along the fence 14 line. 15 Q: Okay. And so you used the back-hoe 16 to push it into that area? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Is -- is that what you did? Okay. 19 So you moved the sand from along the fence line and if -- 20 down through the sandy parking lot, to that area? If you 21 turn around behind you, you can see where the fence line 22 is and the -- 23 A: Some -- a lot of it would have been 24 dug out close to the fence line and to the right of the 25 gate.

1 Q: Okay. 2 A: It would have been dug in there and 3 piled there. 4 Q: Okay. So you did some digging and 5 you moved some sand into that area? 6 A: Yeah, most -- mostly from the area to 7 the right of the -- the gate. 8 Q: Okay. So you would have been driving 9 your backhoe back and forth through that area? 10 A: A couple of times, yes. 11 Q: Yes. Okay. And we heard from 12 Roderick George, who gave evidence previously, that the 13 day after the shooting a number of people came to the 14 Base and to the Park, and he told us that you drove the 15 bus from the Base down to the Park and that a number of 16 people were on the bus, he said, including chiefs and 17 other First Nations people. 18 Do you remember that? 19 A: I don't recall, but I may have been 20 the driver. 21 Q: Okay. And did you look inside the 22 bus or see the bus on the night of September the 6th 23 after the confrontation? Do you recall? 24 A: No, I don't recall. 25 Q: Okay. Do you remember looking in the

1 bus on -- or during the day of September the 7th? The 2 day after the shooting? 3 A: I remember looking around it on the 4 7th. 5 Q: Okay. And on the 7th, when you were 6 looking in the bus, was there broken glass in the bus? 7 A: I don't recall. 8 Q: Okay. And Bonnie Bressette, who gave 9 evidence quite a long time ago, told us that in the 10 period after the shooting of September the 6th, that a 11 lot of people were in the Park, in and around the sandy 12 parking lot. 13 Were you in the Park after September the 14 6th? Yourself? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Yeah. And do you recall that a 17 number of visitors and people came to the Park to give 18 support and to be there and see what had happened? 19 A: Yes, the Park -- 20 Q: Yeah. 21 A: -- and the built-up area. 22 Q: Yeah. And do you agree with Bonnie 23 Bressette that there were a number of people in that 24 area, in and around the sandy parking lot, looking and 25 going down the road and seeing what had happened?

1 A: Yes. When they went -- yes, when 2 they went down East Parkway Drive. 3 Q: Yeah. And you had mentioned earlier 4 that looking -- about looking for casings and we've heard 5 some evidence about that too, and I just wanted to ask 6 what your experience was around that. 7 You had told us yesterday that you were in 8 the Park until 4:00 or five o'clock in the morning. 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then you went back to the Base. 11 And when you were in the Park after the shooting, did you 12 go out onto the sandy parking lot or to East Parkway or 13 Army Camp Road? 14 A: I don't believe so. 15 Q: Okay. Were you one (1) of the people 16 who was looking for casings? 17 A: No. 18 Q: Okay. Did you know whether or not 19 other people were doing that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And how -- how do -- how do 22 you know that? Did you see them, or -- 23 A: They were -- yes. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: Well, they showed me the casings

1 after they found them. 2 Q: Okay. Did you see people out on the 3 road or in the sandy parking lot, looking for the 4 casings? 5 A: When? 6 Q: On -- after the shooting on either -- 7 very, very late on September the 6th or into the morning 8 of September the 7th? 9 A: I don't recall. 10 Q: Okay. Did you see people during the 11 day on September the 7th or September the 8th, on the 12 road of East Parkway or Army Camp Road or in the sandy 13 parking lot area looking for casings? 14 A: I don't recall on what day it was. 15 Q: Okay. Did you see people, though, 16 looking for casings, in the day time? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And can you give us some idea 19 of what you saw? Were there a number of people doing 20 that or one (1) or two (2) people? 21 A: I believe one (1) of them was the SIU 22 officers. 23 Q: Okay. Now, we'll -- we've heard 24 before, and I believe we'll hear more evidence, that the 25 SIU started their investigation on September the 18th and

1 I'm -- what I'd like to know is between September the 2 6th, the day -- the night of the shooting, and September 3 the 18th, whether you saw people, occupiers or visitors 4 or anyone else who were in the Park, looking in the sandy 5 parking area, the East Campway -- sorry, East Parkway or 6 Army Camp Road for casings? 7 A: I don't recall. 8 Q: Okay. And I'm -- now I -- I want to 9 move a little bit closer in time to the shooting but 10 still after the shooting. You had told us yesterday that 11 after the shooting, you threw a gas bomb on the store and 12 you burned it. Do you recall that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And could we have picture 482. 15 And I'm showing a picture which is from 16 the OPP photo brief number 482 and I take it that was the 17 building that you threw the gas bomb on? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And can you tell us where you 20 got the gas bomb from? Did you make it? 21 A: I don't recall where I got it from. 22 Q: Okay. It just ended up in your hand? 23 A: A number of people were -- had some. 24 Q: Okay. And when you say a gas bomb, 25 can you tell us what you mean by that? What did you have

1 in your hand? 2 A: Pop bottle full of gas with a rag 3 stuffed in the top. 4 Q: And I think other people earlier have 5 referred to those as Molotov cocktails? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Is that fair? And you said a number 8 of people had Molotov cocktails? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And the number of people were 11 throwing them at the store? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And do you recall who else had 14 Molotov cocktails? 15 A: No, I don't. 16 Q: Okay. And had you -- did you make 17 any of those Molotov cocktails? 18 A: I don't believe so. 19 Q: Okay. And we also heard some 20 evidence, Mr. George, that in addition to the store, that 21 a kiosk was burned that night. 22 Were you there when the kiosk was burnt? 23 A: I was in the area. 24 Q: You were in the area. Were you one 25 of the people that took part in the burning of the kiosk?

1 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. And did you see that happen? 3 The kiosk being burnt? 4 A: I seen it burning, yes. 5 Q: And do you know whether or not 6 Molotov cocktails were used to burn the kiosk as well? 7 A: I don't know how it was started. 8 Q: Okay. And I now want to take you, 9 Mr. George, to your car. Because we saw some pictures 10 yesterday of the damage to your car. 11 A: Yes. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: And -- and I understand, Mr. -- 16 sorry, let me just go back. Were you in the Park or at 17 the base when the SIU were looking at your car? Were you 18 present at the time? 19 A: I was probably on the reserve, 20 somewheres. 21 Q: Okay. I understand that we'll hear 22 evidence that the first time that the SIU looked at the 23 car, your car, was on September the 19th, 1995. 24 Does that sound right to you or do you 25 know?

1 A: I don't recall the exact date, no. 2 Q: Okay. And, I also wanted to show you 3 some pictures of the car, Mr. George. And the first ques 4 -- the first photo I wanted to show you is already an 5 exhibit. It's Exhibit P-24, number 43. 6 Can I just have one second? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, I'm 11 sorry for that. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 13 Just take your time. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 18 Q: And, Mr. George, we're just going to 19 pass up the photo book to you, because it's very hard to 20 see on this screen, at least this time, but, when we've 21 looked at this picture before, it looks like you have a 22 Confederate Flag in the car? 23 Do you know whether or not there was a 24 flag in the car? 25 And Mr. Millar's just showing you the

1 picture because you can see a reflection and it seemed 2 odd to us when we looked at it before. 3 A: I don't remember that being in the 4 car. I think it's a reflection from something else. 5 Q: Okay. Did you have a Confederate 6 Flag? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. And if we then turn to the 9 next picture that I was wanting to look at, which is from 10 the OPP Photo Brief and it's Number 724, and this is a 11 picture of the back of your truck, sorry, the back of 12 your car. 13 And it looked like you had a bat or some 14 other things in the back? Were those objects that you 15 carried around in the -- in your car generally? You see 16 on the right-hand side of the trunk? 17 A: I don't know how those got in there. 18 I had my car lent out for a couple of days and they could 19 have put that in there. 20 Q: Okay. Was your car lent out to other 21 people between the period of September the 6th and 22 September the 19th? Were people using and driving your 23 car? 24 A: I don't recall. 25 Q: You don't know. Okay. So when you

1 say you might have lent your car out, you're not sure if 2 you did or you didn't. 3 A: I don't think I did, but I'm -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- couldn't be sure on that. 6 Q: Okay. But if what I understand you 7 to say is what's in the back of your trunk in that 8 picture, aren't items that you yourself put there? 9 A: Maybe the tire, -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- and that piece of wood was 12 probably picked up on the beach, and I don't know how 13 that metal pipe got in there. 14 Q: Okay. And then if we can look at the 15 next photo, which is the OPP Photo No. 723. And 16 according to the legend beside the photo, and I 17 anticipate we'll hear evidence from this too, is that 18 that's a fuel container that came from the trunk of your 19 Chrysler, from the trunk of your car? 20 And you'll see on it there's a sticker, 21 and it's a little hard to see on the overhead screen, but 22 that's a St. John's Ambulance sticker. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I wanted to ask you, where did 25 you get that gas can from?

1 A: I don't know how it got in there. 2 Q: Okay. Had you ever seen it in your 3 trunk before? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. On the day of September the 6 7th, that is the day after the shooting, were you one of 7 the people who was at the parking lot that is along East 8 Parkway Drive, where the OPP had equipment and vehicles? 9 A: No, I wasn't there. 10 Q: Okay. And now, Mr. George, I wanted 11 to go back some more, back to the period 1993 to 1995. 12 You told Mr. Worme yesterday that you were one (1) of the 13 people who was living on the Base in 1993, 1994, and 14 1995? 15 A: On the Base -- the built-up area? Is 16 that where you're talking? 17 Q: No, originally as I understood it, 18 you would have lived in -- in or around the rifle range? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And then moved into the built-up area 21 in the summer of 1994 -- 1995, I'm sorry. 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Yeah. And I understand from previous 24 evidence that you had lived in or around the rifle range 25 with Dudley George?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I understand Marlin Simon also 3 lived in the trailer? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And David George was living in 6 or around that area at the time? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And I understand from evidence 9 that was elicited by Mr. Ross some time ago that all of 10 the trailers and tents and things were located in a 11 pretty small area around the rifle range. Is that right? 12 At least in 1993 and part of 1994? 13 A: Yeah, I guess it was a fairly small 14 area. 15 Q: Yeah. And I take it only a few 16 people were living there on a full-time basis? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Yeah. There would have been -- what? 19 Eight (8) or nine (9) people living there in 1993? 20 A: What time of year are you talking? 21 Q: Well, let's look at the fall and the 22 winter of 1993. 23 A: There would have been more so when it 24 was warmer out, but when it got colder out there would 25 have been less people.

1 Q: Okay. So, when it was colder out, 2 about how many people would have been living there? 3 Eight (8) or nine (9) or less than that? 4 A: Roughly. 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: I couldn't give an exact number. 7 Q: Sure. And I take it, it would have 8 been about the same in the winter of 1994. There still 9 would have been a few people that wintered over, in or 10 around the rifle range? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Yeah. And you were one (1) of those 13 people? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yeah. And I take it you would have 16 been close with the other people that you were living in 17 that area with? 18 A: Fairly close, yes. 19 Q: Yeah. And you had told us yesterday, 20 I think, that you went hunting from time to time? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I take it you would have gone 23 hunting with -- at least on some occasions -- with the 24 other people who were living in or around the rifle 25 range?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And that would have included 3 deer hunting? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And hunting goose and rabbits and 6 other small game? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Yeah. Now, we heard earlier from 9 Marlin Simon, that during the period of time that you and 10 he and Dudley were living in Dudley's trailer that he had 11 between six (6) and ten (10) guns and he also told us 12 that he kept those guns at the trailer, that is Dudley's 13 trailer, except when he was going to be away. 14 Do you recall that? 15 A: I don't recall. 16 Q: You don't recall seeing guns in 17 Dudley's trailer? 18 A: Oh, yeah, yes. 19 Q: Sure. 20 A: But I -- I don't know about the 21 storing part or -- 22 Q: Okay. Can you tell us about the guns 23 that you recall that were in Dudley's trailer? First of 24 all, can you recall what kind of guns were there? 25 A: I don't know exactly what kind they

1 were. 2 Q: Okay. Can you give us some idea of 3 what kind of guns were there? 4 A: A shotgun and a twenty-two (.22). 5 Q: Okay. And we also heard from David 6 George that he had two (2) rifles and a sawed-off shotgun 7 during the period that he was on or about the rifle range 8 and he told us that he kept them at his Grandpa Abraham's 9 trailer. 10 Did you see David George with guns from 11 time to time or a gun from time to time? 12 A: Yeah, I seen him with one (1) at 13 times -- a sawed-off shotgun. 14 Q: You saw him with a sawed-of shotgun? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay. And I think, Mr. Millar, if we 17 could just have a look-see at Exhibit 42C? This is a 18 picture, Mr. George, that -- of a gun that's already been 19 put into evidence and it's -- as you can see -- it's a 20 sawed-off shotgun that has "Bastard Blaster" on it. 21 Is that the sawed-off shotgun that you saw 22 David George with? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And earlier in this Inquiry, 25 Marlin Simon was giving evidence about who had guns in or

1 around the rifle range and what kind of guns that people 2 had. And he told us that you had a 22 and I think you 3 told us that also yesterday? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And he said that you had a semi- 6 automatic rifle. Do you recall having a semi-automatic 7 rifle? 8 A: That's -- that's the same gun. 9 Q: The 22 was the semi-automatic? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. And do you still have your 12 guns or as of -- sorry, let me just go back a little bit. 13 As of September the 6th, 1995, did you still have your 14 gun? 15 A: No. 16 Q: And what happened to your gun? 17 A: I left them down at my dad's house. 18 Q: And where was your dad's house? 19 A: Kettle Point. 20 Q: Okay. Sorry, just so I understand 21 then, you still owned the gun as of September 6th, 1995? 22 But you're telling us that at that time you stored it at 23 your dad's place? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And you had given us some

1 evidence yesterday about an incident where you said that 2 the tires on your car had been slashed? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And you said that you had complained 5 about it to the police? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. I just wanted to take you back 8 to that and ask you some questions about it. One of the 9 -- one of the things that happens at these inquiries, Mr. 10 George, is that the Commission has a large number of 11 documents that it shares with counsel. 12 And I believe that Mr. Worme was referring 13 to a specific document yesterday and for the assistance 14 of counsel, it's document 2002439. 15 And it's a document, Mr. George, so you 16 understand that is dated June 28th, 1995 and it's a 17 general occurrence report that was written by George 18 Speck. And it's a document that speaks to the incident 19 that you talked about. 20 And so I just wanted to review with you 21 what he said about the incident and see if that accords 22 with what you recall, okay? 23 A: Okay. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Just for the 25 Commissioner's assistance, that's at Tab 1.

1 2 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 3 Q: Okay. And Mr. George, you have a 4 binder in front of you and if you want to look at the 5 document and follow along, please do it because you might 6 find that helpful. Pages 3 and 4, I think. I just heard 7 of that tab. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. Do you want to take a minute to 10 look at that before I ask you questions? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: Okay. And you'll see it starts off 15 with -- that says on, it says "on the the" but on -- 16 "June 28th, 1995, Detective Constable 17 Speck attended Stony Point to meet with 18 the newly formed council." 19 And I wanted to stop there and ask you, do 20 you recall whether or not in June of -- in or around June 21 of 1995, there was a newly formed council at the base? 22 A: No, I don't recall. 23 Q: Okay. Were you familiar with the 24 council or people who would have been named chief or 25 councillors on the base?

1 A: A little. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: I'm not sure of the date that that 4 stuff happened. 5 Q: Okay. Well if you think about the 6 summer of 1995 or the spring of 1995, does that help you 7 at all? 8 A: No. 9 Q: No? Okay. And according to the 10 General Occurrence Report, he says: 11 "And while there he was informed that 12 Warren George's tires were flattened 13 sometime during the night." 14 And is that accurate? Were your tires flattened during 15 the course of the night time? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. And he goes on in the end of 18 the first paragraph to say that: 19 "The vehicle was parked in the front 20 near the Range Road." 21 And I took from that he was saying, during 22 the night when the tires were slashed the vehicle was 23 parked in the front near Range Road. 24 Is that -- is that where your car was? 25 A: Range Road...what are you -- what are

1 you calling Range Road? 2 Q: Well, I can't help you very much with 3 what Mr. Speck says, but can you tell us the night that 4 your tires were slashed, where your car was parked? If 5 you remember. 6 A: I -- I found out in the morning time 7 that my tires were slashed. 8 Q: Okay. And where was your car that 9 night? 10 A: Parked beside Dudley's trailer. 11 Q: Okay. And what it says is that: 12 "The four tires were cut with a sharp 13 object of some kind and there are no 14 witnesses or suspects in this matter." 15 And I take it during the course of the 16 night when the tires were slashed, you didn't see 17 anything that night? 18 A: I wasn't there that night. 19 Q: You were away? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Was there -- was -- do you recall if 22 anyone was at the trailer that night? 23 A: I don't recall. 24 Q: Okay. So you were away completely 25 during the night. And did you come back in the morning

1 and find your tires slashed? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And then he goes on to say 4 that: 5 "The Natives had stuck foreign objects 6 into the puncture hole prior to 7 Detective Constable Speck arriving at 8 the scene, contaminating any evidence 9 that might have been left." 10 Do you recall whether you put objects into 11 the slashed areas of the tire? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Do you know if anybody else did? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Did you look at the tires when 16 Constable Speck was there? 17 A: I don't recall for sure. 18 Q: Okay. So you can't help us -- sorry, 19 let me just go back. Did you see foreign objects stuck 20 in the holes? 21 A: No, I don't recall. 22 Q: Okay. So you can't give us any 23 assistance with that? About what was stuck in them or 24 when it got stuck in the holes? 25 A: It would -- it would have been done

1 the night before. And that's what the conclusion I had 2 drawn up anyway. 3 Q: Okay. And so if Detective Constable 4 Speck had a different conclusion, because what he says 5 is, the Natives had stuck foreign objects into the 6 puncture hole prior to arriving at the scene, and so that 7 any evidence that was left had been contaminated. 8 A: I don't know if I can believe that 9 guy or not. 10 Q: Okay. And then Detective Speck goes 11 on to say that he spoke to the police about these 12 matters. 13 And do you know whether or not he did 14 speak to the Military Police? 15 A: No, I don't know. I don't recall. 16 Q: Okay. Okay. And in any event, I 17 think it was your evidence that the person or persons who 18 had done that weren't found? 19 A: Correct. 20 Q: Or were identified? Yes. 21 A: Correct. 22 Q: And then you gave some evidence 23 yesterday, Mr. George, I was a little unclear about. You 24 had said that in the -- in the summer of, I think, 1993, 25 or was it 1995, there were meetings with the OPP?

1 Let me just check that date for you 2 because I can do that really quickly. Sorry, in the 3 summer of 1995, there were meetings with the OPP; do you 4 recall that? 5 A: I don't recall the exact date, but I 6 do recall the meeting. 7 Q: Okay. And you had said last date it 8 was in the summer of 1995. Do you think it could have 9 been earlier or later than that, or do you think the 10 summer -- 11 A: It could have been the -- could have 12 been the summer of '94. 13 Q: Could have been the summer of '94? 14 Could it have been the summer of 1993? 15 A: No. 16 Q: No. So sometime in 1994 or 1995, you 17 recall -- 18 A: I believe so. 19 Q: -- the meeting? Okay. And was it 20 one meeting or was it more than one meeting? 21 A: I only recall the one meeting right 22 now. 23 Q: Okay. And can you help with who 24 attended that meeting from the occupiers' side? First of 25 all, were you at the meeting?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And do you recall who else was 3 there, of the Occupiers or supporters or other people 4 like that? 5 A: I believe Glenn may have been there. 6 Q: Okay. Anyone else? 7 A: Sam Isaac. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: That's all I can recall. 10 Q: Okay. Do you remember if there two 11 (2) or three (3) people there from the Occupiers or if 12 there were more than that? 13 A: I don't recall. 14 Q: You don't know? And I think you told 15 us yesterday you didn't recall which police attended the 16 meeting? 17 A: No, I don't recall. 18 Q: And was the purpose of the meeting -- 19 sorry, do you know what the purpose of the meeting was? 20 First of all, who had called it? Was it the Occupiers or 21 was it the police? Do you know? 22 A: I don't recall. 23 Q: And do you know the purpose of the 24 meeting? Do you know what was supposed to happen then? 25 A: I don't recall.

1 Q: Okay. And do you recall anything 2 else that was said at that meeting? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Any other topics that were covered? 5 A: No, I don't recall. 6 Q: Okay. And you had told us that you 7 and others had spoken about taking over the Park. Do you 8 remember that? 9 A: Somewhat, yes. 10 Q: Okay. And did you have discussions 11 with other people about other property that you or others 12 felt that you were entitled to? 13 A: Could you repeat the question, 14 please? 15 Q: Did you have discussions with other 16 Occupiers -- sorry, let me just go back a bit. 17 When you said you had had discussions 18 about taking over the Park, was that with the people who 19 were on the Base or with other people? 20 A: It could have been both. 21 Q: Okay. And those discussions were 22 only about taking over the Park or were they about other 23 land as well that you felt you were entitled to? 24 A: About other land as well. 25 Q: Okay. And can you tell us what other

1 land was of concern to you or to the people that you 2 spoke with? 3 A: The Pinery was discussed. 4 Q: The -- when you say, "The Pinery," 5 you're talking about Pinery Provincial Park? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. Was there any other land that 8 was of concern that you or the people you spoke with had 9 views about, you had a right to? 10 A: Not that I can recall. 11 Q: Okay. And just -- I just -- just so 12 I'm clear about that, we've heard evidence now from a 13 number of other people and we've heard, for example, some 14 people indicate that there was a view that Stoney and 15 Kettle Point where -- you -- the Stony Point people were 16 entitled to land down to Ravenswood? 17 Was that something that you -- that was -- 18 you believed or you talked to others who believed that? 19 A: I believe that part of land was 20 leased out for the timber rights. 21 Q: Okay. Was that -- was that land down 22 to Ravenswood land that you were of the view you had an 23 entitlement to? 24 A: I wouldn't exactly say it like that, 25 no.

1 Q: Okay. And then we've also heard some 2 evidence about some people were of the view that there 3 was an entitlement to land that was east of the Army Base 4 and there's a few areas in particular and one (1) is, you 5 know, at the northeast end of the Army Base. There are 6 some cottages? There's a little development? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Was that an area that you or people 9 that you spoke to were of the view you were entitled to? 10 A: I believe it was encroached upon, 11 yes. 12 Q: Okay. And when you say there were 13 some discussions about Pinery Park, what about the land 14 between the Base and Pinery Park? Were -- were you or 15 others of the view that that was land that you were 16 entitled to? 17 A: It was discussed. I -- I couldn't 18 say -- 19 Q: Okay. And I now want to move into 20 the period of time when Occupiers were in the Park, so 21 that's the period of the 4th, 5th and 6th. I just want 22 to cover off that three (3) day period now. 23 And I wanted to start -- you told us that 24 you were in the Park on September the 4th? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Yeah. And during the period of time 2 you were in the Park on September the 4th, did you ever 3 see any fireworks or hear any firecrackers go off? 4 A: I heard some firecrackers go off. 5 Q: Okay. And where were they being -- 6 where were they going off? 7 A: I don't know. I didn't see them go-- 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: -- off. I could just hear them. 10 Q: Was that in the Park or in the Base? 11 Or could you tell? 12 A: Probably -- I don't think you would 13 hear them if they were in the Base. 14 Q: Okay. And did you hear a lot of 15 firecrackers going off or a few or -- 16 A: Some -- a few. 17 Q: A few? Okay. And in terms of when 18 you were in the Park on September 6th, did you see 19 fireworks in the Park or hear firecrackers going off or 20 see firecrackers going off? 21 A: No, not on that day, no. 22 Q: Okay. And on September the 4th when 23 you heard firecrackers, did you know who had them? 24 A: No. 25 Q: Did you see them?

1 A: No. 2 Q: Okay. And you don't really know 3 where they were being let off? 4 A: No. 5 Q: Okay. Mr. Worme had asked you some 6 questions about the names of different people and I think 7 you had indicated that they had been in the Park, but I 8 wasn't clear from the question or the answer when, in 9 fact, these people were in the Park. 10 So, the next thing I wanted to do was to 11 take you through, essentially, the same list that Mr. 12 Worme did, and see if you can help in telling us whether 13 you saw them in the Park, either when you were there on 14 September the 4th or on September the 6th. 15 And one (1), the first one was Buck 16 Doxtator? 17 A: You're asking if he was there on 18 either of them days or which day are you talking about? 19 Q: Well, let's -- let's start off with 20 September the 6th? Was he there on September the 6th -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- when you were there? Okay. And 23 was Gabriel Doxtator there on September the 6th? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And was Les Jewel there on September

1 the 6th? 2 A: I'm not sure. 3 Q: Okay. You're not sure if you saw him 4 or not? 5 A: On that day. 6 Q: Okay. Had you seen him on September 7 the 4th? 8 A: I believe so, yes. 9 Q: Okay. Because you told us he was 10 one (1) of the people that went into the Park with you. 11 A: He may have been. 12 Q: Yeah. And how about Russ Jewel. Did 13 you see him on September the 6th? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And Robert Isaac? Did you see 16 him in the Park on September the 6th? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And Ed Isaac? Big Ed? Did 19 you see him in the Park? 20 A: I don't recall. 21 Q: Okay. Did you see him in the Park on 22 September the 4th? 23 A: I don't recall. 24 Q: Okay. And Sam Isaac? Did you see 25 him in the Park on September the 6th?

1 A: I don't recall. 2 Q: Okay. How about September the 4th? 3 A: I don't recall. 4 Q: Okay. And Wayne Pine (phonetic)? 5 Did you see him on September the 6th? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And Dutchie French on 8 September the 6th? 9 A: I don't recall. 10 Q: Okay. Did you see Dutchie French on 11 the 4th? 12 A: I don't recall. 13 Q: Okay. And Chuck George? 14 A: For which day? 15 Q: On the 6th? 16 A: I don't recall. 17 Q: Okay. Did you see him on the 4th? 18 A: I don't recall. 19 Q: Okay. And you've told us that you 20 went into the Park on September the 6th with Al George -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: So, he was there. And how about 23 Kevin Thomas? Do you know if he was there on September 24 the 6th? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Yeah? Okay. And you told us when 2 you arrived at the Park on September the 6th that there 3 were men, women and children around and it seemed fairly 4 relaxed and you went on to say that they were cooking 5 hotdogs and marshmallows around the campfires, but you 6 also said that when you got to the Park at 7:30, you 7 parked your car so you could shine the lights down the 8 road and see if anyone was coming. 9 And I wanted to ask you if it was sort of 10 relaxed and there didn't seem to be any problems, why 11 would you have parked your car so that the lights would 12 shine down East Parkway -- East Parkway? 13 A: I'm not exactly sure what time I 14 parked my car like that. It could've been parked 15 elsewhere before that. 16 Q: Okay. Do you need to think about 17 that because you had told the Commission yesterday that 18 you did that as soon as you arrived at 7:30? 19 A: I'm not exactly sure on that. 20 Q: Okay. And we've heard from other 21 witnesses at this Inquiry, Mr. George, about defensive 22 efforts that were undertaken at the Park on -- at least 23 on September the 6th and possibly the 5th. 24 And I wanted to ask you, when you were in 25 the Park on September the 6th, what did you see?

1 So I want to take you through the list of 2 things and you can help us understand what you saw and 3 what you didn't see. We've heard that there was a 4 blockage in front of the turnstile entrance into the 5 Park. Did you see that? 6 A: I -- 7 Q: There was something blocking it? 8 A: I don't recall. 9 Q: Okay. And we heard that there was 10 blocking of the Matheson Road entrance. 11 Do you recall that? 12 A: Yes, I believe it was closed. 13 Q: And that the main gate into the Park 14 was closed. Do you recall that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And we also heard that 17 observation posts were set up in a variety of locations 18 but particularly on the west side of the Park. 19 And do you recall or did you know about 20 those observation posts? That is people being at certain 21 areas so that they could keep a lookout and report back? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Yes? And what observation post did 24 you see? Or where did you see people keeping lookout? 25 A: The -- the entrance to the Park and

1 Matheson Drive. 2 Q: Okay. And what did you see at those 3 places? Was there one (1) person or two (2) persons or 4 more than that? 5 A: At least one (1) person, maybe two 6 (2) persons at each fire. 7 Q: Okay. There were fires going on at 8 those locations? 9 A: Yes. I believe so. 10 Q: And do you know whether or not there 11 was any patrolling or observation posts that were set up 12 on the base along Army Camp Road? Did you see that when 13 you were driving into the Park? 14 A: No, I don't -- don't recall. 15 Q: Okay. Did you see any fires that 16 were built or any people with lights inside the base at 17 that time beside Army Camp Road? 18 A: With lights? 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: What do you mean, spotlights? Is 21 that what you're talking? 22 Q: Hmm hmm. Yeah. 23 A: No. 24 Q: No? And we heard that weapons had 25 been gathered and were being gathered including rocks.

1 Did you see people gathering rocks? 2 A: No. 3 Q: No? Clubs? 4 A: Maybe after the OPP marched up on us 5 there. 6 Q: Okay. Well before. I'm talking 7 about -- 8 A: No. 9 Q: No? Bats? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Metal poles? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Bricks being piled up around the 14 store? 15 A: No. 16 Q: No? Okay. We heard that gas had 17 been put in cans or canisters that they were gas 18 canisters. Did you see those? 19 A: No. 20 Q: We've heard that there were occupiers 21 who were walking around openly with weapons in their 22 hands and by weapons I mean clubs or bats or metal poles. 23 Did you see that? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And we've heard that booby traps had

1 been set. Did you see those? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Did you hear about those? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. And what did you hear? 6 A: I heard there was some fishing line 7 with some hooks set up on Outer Drive to prevent the OPP 8 from coming in. 9 Q: Okay. And do you know whether they 10 had been -- that line had been set up on the 4th or the 11 5th or the 6th? 12 A: No, I believe it was after. 13 Q: After what? 14 A: After Dudley was shot. 15 Q: So it would have been after the 6th? 16 A: I think so. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: As near as I can remember. 19 Q: Okay. And I think that you also told 20 Mr. Worme that during the evening of the 6th, that is 21 before the police -- between the time that you arrived in 22 the Park at 7:30 and the time that the police came, I 23 think you told Mr. Worme that you weren't involved in the 24 gathering of rocks and sticks? 25 A: No.

1 Q: No, you weren't or -- 2 A: I wasn't. 3 Q: Okay. And I wanted to ask you about 4 that because you gave some evidence at your trial that 5 was different than that and I wanted to take you to that 6 evidence and see if that assists your memory. 7 Do you have the -- you've got the binder 8 in front of you? And if you look at Tab 14, if my index 9 is right, that should be a transcript of the evidence 10 that was given on December 15th, 1997 that you gave at 11 your trial? 12 A: Mine says, "Honourable Greg Pockol 13 (phonetic), October 3rd, '03 14 Q: You know, I -- I think I actually -- 15 try Tab 15. See if that works better. You see the front 16 page should say, "Proceedings at Trial Before the 17 Honourable Judge Pockol on December 15, 1997? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Are we on the same book? Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I believe he 21 pronounces his name Pocalee (phonetic) -- Greg Pocalee. 22 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you. Thank you. 23 I will -- I will do better. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 2 Q: Okay. If you turn to Page 30 of the 3 transcript and if you want to take a minute to read it, 4 you ought to do that. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And -- and I -- I just want to be 9 clear about what you told Mr. Worme and -- and maybe I 10 can -- can short-circuit some of this. 11 When you knew or heard that the police 12 were coming down the road, was that when you started to 13 gather rocks? 14 A: I believe so. 15 Q: Okay. Okay. And I wanted to ask you 16 some questions about the conditions that night, and 17 particularly I wanted to ask you some questions about the 18 lighting. 19 And after dark on September the 6th, I 20 take it that you were in the Park and out in the sandy 21 parking lot? 22 A: Around in that area. 23 Q: Yeah, okay. And it would be helpful 24 to get some idea of how you perceived the lighting in the 25 area. When you were in the Park and you were looking out

1 into the sandy parking lot, was it dark out there? 2 And I'm saying before the police came down 3 the road? 4 A: I don't recall. 5 Q: Okay. Do you recall when the police 6 were coming down the road and before the spotlight got 7 turned on from your car, can you tell us how far down the 8 road you could see down East Parkway? 9 A: Four (4) or five hundred (500) yards. 10 Q: Okay. Now, if you turn around behind 11 you, there's that diagram and when you say you could see 12 down four (4) or five hundred (500) yards, can you give 13 us some idea that -- how far down East Parkway you could 14 see? 15 Could you see further down than what's on 16 that map? 17 A: Yeah, probably somewheres over here. 18 Q: Could you see down to the curve in 19 the road of East Parkway. 20 A: Right -- right about to the curve, 21 there, yes. 22 Q: Okay. So, standing inside the Park, 23 and before the spotlights went on, you could see down to 24 the curve of East Parkway? 25 A: I could see where --

1 Q: Is that your evidence? 2 A: It was dark out but you could still 3 see, yeah. 4 Q: Okay. And were there lights on 5 anywhere along East Parkway or along that road at all? 6 Do you recall? 7 A: I don't recall. 8 Q: Okay. And you've told us that you 9 had a spotlight on your car? 10 A: Plugged in to the -- 11 Q: Right. 12 A: -- cigarette lighter, yes. 13 Q: Sure. And was that your spotlight or 14 did you get it from someone else? 15 A: I don't recall. 16 Q: Okay. Well, did you own a spotlight 17 at the time? 18 A: I don't recall. 19 Q: Okay. Did you bring a spotlight into 20 the Park with you? 21 A: I don't recall. 22 Q: Okay. And we've heard some evidence 23 earlier about the spotlights and I just wanted to get the 24 language right, I think they were described as, a million 25 candles? Is that -- is that right?

1 A: It may be, there's -- there's 2 different ones like half a million candle watt hour. 3 Q: Sure. Okay. And you've told us that 4 Gabriel Doxtator ended up at your car holding the 5 spotlight. 6 Was he standing on the car or was he 7 beside the car? Did you actually see him? 8 A: He was -- he was standing beside the 9 driver door holding the spotlight through the window. 10 Q: Okay. Aiming it down the road? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Aiming it down East Parkway? And did 13 you see if there were any other spotlights? 14 A: I don't recall. 15 Q: You don't recall. Did your car or 16 any of -- have its -- have it's headlights on; do you 17 recall? 18 A: I believe my headlights were on, yes. 19 Q: Okay. Were there other cars in the 20 area where your car was parked; do you remember? 21 A: I don't think so. 22 Q: Okay. And I now want to move to the 23 police coming down the road. 24 You had told Mr. Worme yesterday that you 25 saw twenty (20) to thirty (30) police officers marching

1 down the road? 2 A: Now it's a rough estimate. 3 Q: Sure, sure. And you also said that 4 some had riot gear on and some didn't. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Yes. And can you give us some idea 7 in terms of, did most of the police have riot gear on or 8 half of them, could you tell? 9 Were there about equal in number? 10 A: About a dozen or so that were in the 11 front of them, or more. 12 Q: Okay. Twelve (12) or more had riot 13 gear on? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And the rest didn't. And you said 16 that the police in riot gear, when they entered into the 17 sandy parking lot, they spread across a line? 18 They spread out in a line across the 19 sandy parking lot? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And the police who didn't have riot 22 gear on were behind them? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And I take it that that line 25 of police was about ten (10) to fifteen (15) feet back a

1 way from the fence of the Park? Is that about right? 2 A: Something like that, yes. 3 Q: Okay. And about -- so about ten (10) 4 or fifteen (15) feet away from the Park fence line, the 5 police stopped in a line? 6 A: They may have come closer. 7 Q: Okay. Do you recall one way or the 8 other? 9 A: I would have to say almost five (5) 10 to ten (10) feet from the -- 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: -- fence line to the Park. 13 Q: Okay. And are you clear about that 14 or it could have been five (5) to ten (10) feet, or it 15 could be ten (10) to fifteen (15) feet, somewhere in that 16 area? 17 And the reason I'm asking is because 18 you've given evidence before on this point, where you 19 said it was ten (10) to fifteen (15) feet, so I just want 20 to try and see today what you're clear about, what you 21 actually remember, and what you're -- what might have 22 happened. 23 A: Five (5) to fifteen (15) feet. 24 Q: Five (5) to fifteen (15) feet. Okay. 25 And I take it that once the police lined up five (5) to

1 fifteen (15) feet away from the fence, that the occu -- 2 and, sorry, just so I'm clear too, you had said that when 3 the police came up to the fence, that is within the five 4 (5) to fifteen (15) feet, is it your evidence that there 5 were still occupiers out in the sandy parking lot or, 6 when you think about it, did all of the occupiers go back 7 into the sandy -- into the Park? 8 A: I don't recall if everybody went into 9 the Park or not. 10 Q: Okay. Do you recall seeing people go 11 back into the Park, though, at the time the police were 12 advancing? 13 A: When they were doing their punchout? 14 Q: No -- no, not when they were doing 15 their punchout, but I want to start and -- and take you 16 through the events fairly carefully and fairly slowly. 17 So, right now, I want to talk to about the 18 first period -- the first time that the police came into 19 the sandy parking lot, because you had told us they came 20 in, down East Parkway, came into the sandy parking lot 21 and they stopped in a line five (5) to fifteen (15) feet 22 away from the fence. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: So, at that time, do you recall or do 25 you know, whether all of the occupiers who had been out

1 in the sandy parking lot went back into the Park? 2 A: I don't recall. 3 Q: You don't know? Okay. And I -- 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Jones, I 5 don't want to interrupt you in the middle of this, but 6 we've been at it an hour and a half. 7 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it 9 would be a good idea to take a break at the point you're 10 at. 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. Thank you, Mr. 12 Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Would that 14 be all right? 15 MS. KAREN JONES: That's absolutely fine. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 17 morning break. 18 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 20 for fifteen (15) minutes. 21 22 --- Upon recessing at 10:28 a.m. 23 --- Upon resuming at 10:46 a.m. 24 25 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now

1 resumed. Please be seated. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Mr. Commissioner, in 6 terms of housekeeping before we go any further, I wonder 7 if I could make those photos that I showed Mr. George, 8 the next exhibit? And that would be Exhibit -- 9 THE REGISTRAR: P-113. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: P-113 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-113. 12 MS. KAREN JONES: And just to be clear, 13 Mr. Commissioner, that was OPP photo from the photo brief 14 number 12, number 14, number 17, number 18, number 6 -- 15 THE REGISTRAR: No, no, no. 16 MS. KAREN JONES: Oh, sorry, we didn't do 17 eighteen (18), my -- my -- okay. And we had six nineteen 18 (619)? 19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. And then we had 21 seven twenty-four (724)? No, sorry -- 22 THE REGISTRAR: Four eighty-two (482). 23 MS. KAREN JONES: Sorry? 24 THE REGISTRAR: Four eighty-two (482). 25 MS. KAREN JONES: Four eighty-two (482).

1 THE REGISTRAR: Seven twenty-four (724). 2 MS. KAREN JONES: Seven twenty-four 3 (724). 4 THE REGISTRAR: Seven twenty-three (723). 5 MS. KAREN JONES: Seven twenty-three 6 (723). 7 THE REGISTRAR: And that was it. 8 MS. KAREN JONES: Okay. 9 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 10 MS. KAREN JONES: Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And all of 12 those photos will be one (1) Exhibit, P-113. 13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sir. And that's -- 14 all of those are from September 17, Ms. Jones? 15 MS. KAREN JONES: I believe they are -- 16 THE REGISTRAR: We don't know. 17 MS. KAREN JONES: -- but we'll get some 18 evidence from that later on. 19 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 20 MS. KAREN JONES: Yeah. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-113: Photographs from OPP Photo 23 Brief 0012, 0014, 0017, 0619, 24 0482, 0724, 0723 25

1 MS. KAREN JONES: Some of them, I 2 believe, would have been from the 19th -- 3 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 4 MS. KAREN JONES: -- but we'll -- we'll 5 clarify that along the way. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. KAREN JONES: 8 Q: And, Mr. George, just to do a -- 9 another piece of housekeeping, you told us about how many 10 -- about -- about how many police officers you saw and 11 I'm just wondering if you can tell us about how many of 12 the occupiers were involved in the confrontation with the 13 police on September the 6th? 14 A: About a half -- or about a dozen. 15 Q: Okay. And I know that your Counsel 16 has passed up to you, a document and it's just one (1) I 17 wanted to refer you to. 18 For the assistance of Counsel, it's 19 Document 2001847 and it's an article from the Sarnia 20 Observer dated September the 8th of '95 and there's a -- 21 it looks like there was an interview with you on that 22 day. 23 Do you recall that -- with a reporter, or 24 in or around that date from the -- reporter from the 25 Sarnia Observer?

1 A: Which -- which date are you talking? 2 Q: Some time between September the 6th 3 and September the 8th, would you have spoken to a 4 reporter or reporters after the confrontation? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And do you call speaking to a 7 reporter from the Sarnia Observer or another local 8 reporter? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. Because when I look at that 11 article and you have a copy of it before you, it says: 12 "He [referring to you] estimated that 13 there were about thirty (30) people in 14 the Native group and twenty (20) to 15 twenty-five (25) police officers in the 16 skirmish, in the parking lot and beach 17 access lane." 18 Do you recall saying that to the reporter? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And was that accurate at the 21 time? 22 A: There was thirty (30) people there 23 before the skirmish started but a lot of the women and 24 children left before -- 25 Q: Okay.

1 A: -- before that happened. 2 Q: Okay. And we've heard some evidence 3 from previous witnesses, Mr. George, that there were 4 somewhere in the area of twenty (20) occupiers who were 5 involved in the confrontation. 6 Does that seem possible to you? 7 A: It could be. 8 Q: Okay. And I -- I want to take you 9 back now to where we left off which was -- you had -- we 10 were at the police coming down East Parkway entering into 11 the sandy parking lot, forming a line in the sandy 12 parking lot, somewhere five (5) to fifteen (15) feet back 13 of the Park fence. 14 And I take it at that time when the police 15 were lined up, that the occupiers started throwing stones 16 or sticks or other things at the police. 17 Is that accurate? 18 A: Yes. Around that time. 19 Q: Okay. And I take it up to -- at that 20 point in time, first of all the police were away from the 21 fence; is that right? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And they were standing still? They 24 weren't moving towards the fence any further? 25 A: I don't know about standing still.

1 They could have been banging their batons on their 2 shields. 3 Q: Sure they could have been banging 4 their batons on the shields but they -- they hadn't -- 5 they hadn't taken any steps for example to make -- they - 6 - they had come in and they had formed the line and if 7 they were doing anything, it was banging on their 8 shields. That's all the police had done; is that right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And I anticipate that we'll 11 hear evidence that a lot of rocks and sticks were being 12 thrown at the police. Do you recall that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And I anticipate that we'll 15 hear evidence that a lot of rocks and sticks were being 16 thrown at the police. Do you recall that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And there were also metal pipes or 19 metal bars being thrown as well? Did you -- did you see 20 that? 21 A: No, I didn't see that. 22 Q: And we've heard evidence early that 23 fire brands, that is pieces of wood that were lit on fire 24 were being thrown at the police. Did you see that? 25 A: I may have seen one.

1 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 2 you, Mr. George, that at this time all of the occupiers 3 would have been behind the fence; that is, inside the 4 Park. Do you know one way or the other? 5 A: I would say most of them could have 6 been inside the Park. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: There may have been one (1) or two 9 (2) that were on the other side of the fence. 10 Q: Okay. And you've told us that you 11 were standing at the north end, I think, of the fence, 12 fairly close at the end closes to the lake? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Were you -- were you the last person 15 on the line down there or were there or were there other 16 people closer to the lake than you was? 17 A: I believe I was the last person on 18 that end. 19 Q: Okay. And were you, at the time, 20 were you looking out into the sandy parking lot at the 21 police -- at the time they were lined up? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. Because I'm -- I'm going to 24 suggest that maybe at that time and -- sorry, and were 25 you also throwing rocks at that time?

1 A: Right around that time, yes. 2 Q: Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to suggest to 3 you that you might not have been in a position either 4 because of your location or because of your activity at 5 the time to really see whether or not any of the 6 occupiers were out in the sandy parking lot; is that 7 fair? 8 A: Could you repeat that? 9 Q: I'm going to suggest to you that 10 either as a result of where you were standing, which was 11 at the far end of the line closest to the lake, or 12 because of your activity at the time, throwing rocks, or 13 both, that you may not have been in a very good position 14 to see whether or not any of the occupiers were out in 15 the sandy parking lot? 16 A: No, I could -- I could see there. 17 Q: Okay. You could see all the way down 18 the fence line, down to the south end of the sandy 19 parking lot? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And you did see occupiers out 22 or you don't recall? 23 A: There may have been one (1) or two 24 (2) out there, -- 25 Q: Okay.

1 A: -- near as I can remember. 2 Q: Okay. And then you said that an 3 officer on the hill, and by the hill you were, I think 4 referring to, that -- what we've been calling, the grassy 5 knoll, at the south end of the sandy parking lot, -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: -- you said he ordered a punchout. 8 And I wanted to ask you some questions about that. 9 And, first of all, could you see from 10 where you were standing, at the north end of the line 11 closest to the lake, could you see the grassy knoll area 12 clearly? 13 A: Yes, whenever there wasn't people in 14 front of my view, yes. 15 Q: Sure. And I take it that at that 16 time, there would have been a lot of noise? For example, 17 we've heard there was yelling that was going on; is that 18 right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 21 you, Mr. George, that you couldn't have heard someone on 22 the grassy knoll giving orders to the police. 23 A: I could hear. 24 Q: Okay. And did you -- are you sure 25 you could identify clearly that the person on the grassy

1 knoll was giving the orders? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. Because I want to be fair to 4 you, Mr. George, we're going to hear evidence that the 5 person who was in charge of the -- of the police, and who 6 was giving the orders, was dressed in riot gear and he 7 was in the middle of the police, that, according to your 8 diagram are at the north or -- more northern end of the 9 sandy parking lot. 10 A: What's the question? 11 Q: I'm going to suggest to you that 12 whoever or whatever you saw on that grassy knoll, was not 13 a police officer giving orders to the police. 14 A: I don't -- I don't believe so. I 15 believe that he was the one that was giving the orders. 16 Q: Okay. And you told us that he was -- 17 that person that you saw on the grassy knoll, you told us 18 he was dressed differently. 19 What was the person on the grassy knoll 20 wearing? 21 A: Baggy -- baggy fatigues, but didn't 22 have the -- the shields and the -- the riot gear that the 23 front contact squad had. 24 Q: Okay. And could you tell what colour 25 the baggy fatigues were?

1 A: A dark colour. 2 Q: A dark colour. And was there one (1) 3 person on the sandy -- on the grassy knoll or more than 4 one (1) person on the grassy knoll? 5 A: I only noticed one (1). 6 Q: Okay. And I was going to ask you 7 about that because in a statement that you gave to the 8 SIU on September the 9th, 1997, and, I think in your 9 Brief in front of you, it's at Tab 8, and maybe you can - 10 - you can just check, the front page should say, 11 "Anticipated Evidence of Warren Anthony George", and the 12 frontline -- top line will say, "The time is 11:58 a.m.". 13 And for the assistance of Counsel, it's 14 Document 1004583. Do you have that document, Mr. George? 15 A: I think so. 16 Q: Okay. You see the first line under 17 the -- there -- it says, "Anticipated Evidence of Warren 18 Anthony George" and then it says "Kennedy"? The time is 19 11:58 a.m. Do you have that? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And do you remember meeting 22 with the SIU in September of 1997? 23 A: Some of it, yes. 24 Q: Okay. If you turn to Page 5, and you 25 look about halfway down the page, you'll see a question

1 from Mr. Kennedy: 2 "Were they the front rank or the people 3 behind or the rear rank? Or the 4 rear..." 5 It says, filey -- I take it should say, 6 file of police? 7 Answer: "There was a line of riot -- 8 riot officers lined across the fence 9 like that and there were other guys 10 standing up -- up on the grassy knoll, 11 there that didn't have the right gear." 12 And I wanted to ask you, Mr. George, in 13 light of that, did you see one (1) person on the grassy 14 knoll, or did you see more than one (1) person on the 15 grassy knoll? 16 A: I don't recall. 17 Q: You don't remember? Okay. And I'm 18 going to suggest to you, Mr. George, that you really 19 couldn't see what the person or persons on the grassy 20 knoll were wearing other than to be able to say, It was 21 dark clothes. Do you agree with that? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And I now want to get back to 24 the confrontation, because you had told us yesterday that 25 there were two (2) or three (3) occasions when the police

1 would have a punchout and you explained that meant they 2 would advance fifteen (15) feet or so -- 3 A: Roughly, I guess. 4 Q: -- each time? Okay. And so I take 5 it at the time of the first punchout, the police would 6 have had to have been back away from the fence at least 7 fifteen (15) feet. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Is that right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay. So, when you're thinking about 12 how close the police got up to the fence, is it your 13 evidence that they were at least fifteen (15) feet away? 14 A: Before -- before the punchout? 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: Yes, it would have been -- 17 Q: Yeah. 18 A: -- a little more than fifteen (15) 19 feet. 20 Q: Sure. And so you say -- and the 21 other thing that you told Mr. Worme was that every time 22 there was an -- a punchout -- an advance -- whoever 23 didn't back up on the Occupiers' side, when the police 24 would run forward, they would be overrun. 25 Do you recall giving that evidence

1 yesterday? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. So, I want to take you through 4 the two (2) or three (3) punchouts that you say occurred 5 and get you to describe for us what happened. 6 So, at the first punchout, we agree the 7 police must have been at least fifteen (15) feet back 8 away from the fence line? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you heard an order being given 11 for a punchout and at the time that happened, what -- 12 were there occupiers in the sandy parking lot? 13 A: On the first punchout? 14 Q: Yeah. 15 A: Yes, but as they ran forward, I 16 believe they backed -- backed into the Park or jumped the 17 fence into the Park. 18 Q: Okay. So, on the first punchout, 19 then, there was no fighting and there was no clubbing, am 20 I right, because the Occupiers were behind the fence. 21 A: As near as I can recall. 22 Q: Okay. And then you say the police 23 would have retreated; is that right? 24 A: After -- after their punchout? 25 Q: Yeah.

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did they retreat back to the west 3 side of the sandy parking lot? If you look behind you, 4 Mr. George, on the diagram that you drew and maybe this 5 will help you a little bit, you had a line number 2 that 6 is the west side of the sandy parking lot along the fence 7 to the cottages. 8 Would the police have withdrawn back to 9 that area after the first punchout? 10 A: Back to their same area they started? 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And at the time the police 14 retreated back to that line that's marked two (2) on your 15 diagram, which is the west side of the sandy parking lot, 16 were the occupiers throwing stones and other things at 17 the police? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Did occupier leave the sandy park -- 20 sorry, leave the Park and go into the sandy parking lot? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And was that when you heard or 23 saw the second punchout? 24 A: Shortly after, yes. 25 Q: Okay. And I take it's similarly on

1 the second punchout, the police would have had advanced 2 about fifteen (15) feet? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And on the second punchout, did the 5 occupiers go back into the Park? 6 A: Some of them, yes. 7 Q: Did occu -- did some occupiers stay 8 out in the sandy parking lot? 9 A: I believe one was Slippery that was 10 run -- they ran past him and pulled him to the back of 11 their -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- frontline. 14 Q: And this was on the second punchout 15 you say this happened with Mr. Cecil Bernard George? 16 A: I can't be sure if it was the second 17 or the third punchout, if there was a third punchout. 18 Q: Okay. Now, you told us yesterday 19 that you saw Cecil Bernard George in the sandy parking 20 lot and you said he was trying to talk to the police and 21 you drew a diagram for us. 22 I think where you marked the area where 23 Mr. Cecil Bernard George was out in the parking lot and 24 it looks like a 4, if I understand it, and that's an area 25 about halfway between the Park fence on the east side and

1 the cottage fence on the west side; is that right? 2 A: Roughly, yes. 3 Q: Okay. And was he out there by 4 himself? 5 A: I don't recall. 6 Q: Okay. Could you see him clearly? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And do you know -- can -- if 9 you think, can you think of whether or not there was 10 anyone beside him or behind him or around him? 11 A: There may have been some behind him, 12 but I don't think there was any beside him. 13 Q: Okay. And you said that he was just 14 standing there talking; is that right? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And did he have anything in 17 his hands? 18 A: He may have had a stick in his hands. 19 Q: Okay. And was he standing -- can you 20 tell us about how long you saw him standing there talking 21 to the police in the sandy parking lot? 22 A: Very short, maybe five (5) seconds or 23 so. 24 Q: Okay. And had you seen him leave the 25 Park and go into the middle of the sandy parking lot to

1 start talking? Did you see him leave the Park? 2 A: No. 3 Q: No. Okay. And, Mr. George, I have 4 to tell you that Cecil Bernard George gave evidence here 5 very recently and he told the Commission that when he 6 left the Park, he had a metal bar in his hand and he was 7 filled with anger and in a rage and he went out and he 8 hit a policeman. 9 And I'm going to suggest to you that you 10 never saw Cecil Bernard George standing in the middle of 11 the parking lot talking to the police. 12 A: I did. 13 Q: Okay. And is it your evidence then 14 that there was another punchout, or do you recall? 15 A: After the first punchout? 16 Q: Well you've told us about the first 17 punchout which -- in which you said, all the occupiers 18 went back into the Park. You said the police then 19 retreated to the west side. 20 You said there was a second punchout and 21 you've described that as one (1), maybe it was the 22 second, maybe it was the third, before which you saw 23 Cecil Bernard George out in the parking lot talking to 24 the police. 25 And I'm going to ask you, was there a

1 punchout after that or was that the last punchout? 2 A: I don't recall. 3 Q: Okay. And is it your evidence, Mr. 4 George, that you saw one person or you saw more than one 5 (1) person being overrun by the police on the night of 6 September the 6th? 7 A: More than one (1) person. 8 Q: Okay. How many people did you see 9 being overrun by the police? 10 A: I wouldn't -- two (2), where they 11 clashed together and the only one I seen that was taken 12 after that punch-out there was Cecil Bernard. 13 Q: Okay. And when you said, overrun by 14 the police, maybe you can help us; what to you mean by 15 that? 16 A: When they were doing their punch-out 17 and then were running forward, some would back up and 18 some would stay there, -- 19 Q: okay 20 A: -- and they would be together, -- 21 Q: They would be mixed up? 22 A: -- and mixed up together for a short 23 period of -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- of time.

1 Q: And by mixed up together, is that 2 what you mean by being overtaken? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And so when the occupiers 5 would be overtaken by the police, I take it that would be 6 the time when there was fighting, when there was clubbing 7 going on, that -- that clubbing that you described 8 yesterday? 9 A: Yes. Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And if you think about it, can 11 you recall one (1) or two (2) times when there was 12 fighting and clubbing between the police and the 13 occupiers? 14 A: I don't recall. 15 Q: Okay. And at the time that you say 16 that you saw Cecil Bernard George standing in the parking 17 lot, talking to the police, were you inside the Park, or 18 you -- were you in the sandy parking lot? 19 A: I believe I was in the sandy parking 20 lot, close to the fence. 21 Q: Okay. And at that point in time, 22 were you fighting with the police? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Okay. Were you throwing rocks at the 25 police?

1 A: Shortly after that, I -- I jumped 2 over the fence back into the Park and started looking for 3 rocks. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: More rocks. 6 Q: You got more rocks? 7 A: And started looking for rocks, yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And where did you go to look 9 for rocks inside the Park? 10 A: Just on the other side of the 11 fence, -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- whatever was laying on the ground. 14 Q: Okay. Were there piles of rocks back 15 there for you? 16 A: No, they were scattered all over. 17 Q: Okay. And so shortly after you saw 18 Cecil Bernard George standing in the parking lot talking 19 to the police, you went back into the Park, and you 20 gathered rocks? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Is that right? And what did you do 23 then? 24 A: I