1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 December 8th, 2004 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )    (np)
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  
  7  Murray Klippenstein ) (np)       The Estate of Dudley 
  8  Vilko Zbogar       ) (np)       George and George
  9  Andrew Orkin       )  (np)      Family Group
 10  Basil Alexander    )
 11  Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )   (np)       Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stoney
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )              Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Sue Freeborn     )   (np)
 25  Michelle Pong    )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (Np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 11  
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  
 15  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 16  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 17  
 18  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 19  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 20  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 21  
 22  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 23  Karen Jones      )              Police Association &
 24  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 25  Ian McGilp       )   (np)

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  
  7  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
  8  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
  9  
 10  William Horton   )              Chiefs of Ontario
 11  Matthew Horner   )   (np)
 12  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 13  
 14  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 15  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 16  
 17  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 18  Anna Perschy     )
 19  Melissa Panjer   )   (np)
 20  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 21  
 22  
 23  
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 CECIL BERNARD GEORGE, Resumed 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 8 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 28 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 61 10 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 65 11 12 WARREN GEORGE, Jr., Sworn 13 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 67 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 214 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-111 Document 1002409, page 13, Map Of 83 4 Ipperwash Military Reserve, Marked 5 by witness Mr. Warren George, 6 December 08/04. 7 P-112 "Stan" Thompson drawing September 165 8 20/95 marked by Witness Mr. Warren 9 George December 08/04 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon convening at 10:01 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning 7 everybody. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. I thought that for the benefit of 10 everyone, that I might just outline the plan for the 11 balance of the week. When we're finished Mr. Bernard 12 George this morning, we will be calling Mr. Warren 13 George. We anticipate that Mr. Warren George will be the 14 balance of the day and into tomorrow. 15 We do not want to call a witness tomorrow 16 that would -- who would not be finished -- who would be 17 hanging over for a month and so we will stop tomorrow 18 with -- when we're finished Mr. Warren George, we will 19 stop until January 10th. So I just wanted to let 20 everybody know so they can plan accordingly. 21 But we will -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 23 very much. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- not be calling Mr. 25 Leland George this week.

1 2 CECIL BERNARD GEORGE, Resumed 3 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 5 morning. 6 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Tuck- 8 Jackson...? 9 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good morning, 10 Mr. Commissioner. Good morning, Mr. George. 11 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 14 Q: My name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson and 15 I'm here today on behalf of the OPP. 16 Sir, as I understand your evidence, the 17 first time you tried to diffuse the situation at the Park 18 was when you addressed the Crowd Management Unit as they 19 marched along East Parkway Drive. Do I have that 20 correct? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Yesterday, sir, you raised the issue 23 as to why the Anishnaabek police of Kettle and Stony 24 Point did not play a role during the occupation prior to 25 the shooting of Mr. George.

1 And I anticipate that we're going to hear 2 evidence why the OPP did not involve them at that 3 particular stage, but I want to ask you a number of 4 questions on that issue. 5 It's correct as I understand it, sir, that 6 you were a member of the Band Council in 1995? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And as I understand it 9 and I do want you to correct me, sir, if my understanding 10 is inaccurate, the Anishnaabek police at Kettle and 11 Stoney Point were accountable to a police committee in 12 that territory? 13 A: Part and parcel, yes. 14 Q: Part and parcel? And again I'm -- 15 I'm restricting my questions to the time frame of 1995. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Just so that we're clear on that. 18 Can you explain to me then what you mean by part and 19 parcel? 20 A: Well there was -- there was a 21 committee yes, within that Band from Council and there 22 was also -- there was also involvement with Anishnaabek 23 which their -- their head office was in the north in the 24 Sault Ste. Marie area. 25 So they -- I guess they were accountable

1 to -- to the head office and Sault Ste. Marie and also 2 accountable to the Band Council as well as the committees 3 that were formed to help further structure that. 4 Q: Which makes sense. The committee, 5 the police committee, was it established by the council? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. Back, sir, in 1995 did you sit 8 as a member of that police committee? 9 A: No, I didn't. 10 Q: Were you involved in any way, sir, in 11 its establishment? 12 A: Partially, yes. 13 Q: Okay. I -- I trust, sir, and I don't 14 want you to take it as a criticism but I just want to 15 clarify it. 16 I trust, sir, that at no time during the 17 period of September 4th to the 6th did you approach the 18 Anishnaabek police at Kettle and Stony Point with a view 19 to having them become involved in the occupation? 20 A: No, I -- I talked to officers about 21 it but not -- no, directly I did not get involved heavily 22 into that issue. Like I mentioned I was working at the 23 time and the police had their business but I -- I talked 24 to some of them individually about it. 25 Q: And I'm sorry, you talked to

1 individual members of the that police service? 2 A: Yes, that were police officers. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: My Friend Mr. Millar has just, as he 7 often does, whispered something in my ear -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No comment. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 11 Q: In an entirely professional manner I 12 should clarify. And I -- I want to clarify that in 1995 13 the police service that had primary jurisdiction of the 14 Kettle and Stony Point territory, was that properly 15 called the Anishnaabek Police or was it properly called 16 the Kettle and Stony Point Police Service? 17 A: It was the police services and they - 18 - later on they -- the name changed to Anishnaabek 19 Police. 20 Q: All right. All right, fair enough. 21 So let's back up then, sir, you indicated 22 that you spoke to individual officers within that police 23 service and you did so I gather during the period of the 24 4th to the 6th or sometime after that period? 25 A: Before and after.

1 Q: Before and after, but not during? 2 A: I know I spoke to -- because one (1) 3 of them, one (1) of the police officers is one of my -- 4 he's a relative of -- he's my first cousin, Wallace 5 Kuzinowski (phonetic) and I talked to him about it 6 briefly. 7 Q: And I'm just -- I'm trying to 8 establish the time frame that you did that. And as I 9 understand what you're -- 10 A: I -- I can't pinpoint any specific 11 day but I knew I was talking to him about when that was 12 happening. When they were in the built-up area of the -- 13 of the base there, and I may have spoken to them briefly 14 before that happened. 15 Q: Before the occupation of the Park? 16 Or before the occupation of the barracks? 17 A: No. Because it was only within a 18 couple of days that that happened. I -- I can't recall 19 if I really talked to him about it. 20 Q: Okay. All right. So just so that 21 I'm -- 22 A: I know, I know I was talking with 23 them. 24 Q: All right. But you can't assist us 25 as to whether you actually talked with these officers

1 during the Park occupation between the 4th and the 6th? 2 A: No. I'll say no to that, no. 3 Q: Thank you, all right. You told us 4 yesterday, sir, that no one would come out and try to 5 talk to us. And -- and I don't have the actual 6 transcript in front of me, sir. I'm going by my notes of 7 your evidence. And you made that comment when you were 8 expressing what formed the basis of some of the 9 frustration that led -- that in turn led to your actions 10 in the parking lot that night. 11 And I wanted to ask you a little bit about 12 your impression that no one would try to come out and 13 talk to us. I trust, sir, what you were referring to is 14 the fact that no one was trying to reach out to the 15 occupiers in the Park to talk to them? 16 A: That's the way I took it, yes. 17 Q: Okay. Fair enough. And I also 18 trust, sir, that by no one you also included in that 19 category, the OPP? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. We've already heard 22 evidence to this effect and I anticipate that we're going 23 to hear further evidence on the point, about efforts made 24 by the OPP on September 4th, September 5th and September 25 the 6th, to actually open up a dialogue with the

1 occupiers. 2 And I trust, sir, based upon your evidence 3 yesterday that you were unaware of the efforts that were 4 made by the OPP to open up a dialogue with the occupiers 5 of the Park? 6 A: Yes. I -- like I mentioned I never 7 spent a lot of time there and I had no idea what took 8 place prior to my getting there. And I -- I kind of 9 stayed away from the area just drove by and watched and 10 that's as far as I really went up until the day that that 11 happened. 12 Q: I understand, sir. 13 A: I had no idea that they were trying 14 to communicate. Only through TV -- you watch the TV and 15 you watch what's going on and you begin to wonder what is 16 -- what is taking place, why is it happening and what is 17 going to happen. 18 I mean that's -- I didn't go there, you 19 know, a lot. I -- I felt that there was, like I 20 mentioned earlier when an individual feels that they want 21 to be heard, then that's their right to do that. I have 22 no -- no right myself to tell anyone that they can't 23 speak or do anything. If I feel -- I could only mention 24 but that's -- that's all I can do. 25 Q: I understand, sir. You mentioned

1 that on September the 6th during the two (2) occasions 2 when you went down to the Park, that you did have a 3 chance to speak with some of the occupiers, albeit 4 briefly, but you did have a chance to speak with a number 5 of the occupiers, do I have evidence correct? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I trust, sir, that during your 8 contact with those individuals on September the 6th, at 9 no point did they say to you that they wanted to speak 10 with a member of the OPP? 11 A: No, I never heard that conversation. 12 Q: Or that they even wanted to -- to 13 reach out and speak with the police? The OPP in 14 particular? 15 A: No. I guess I -- my purpose of going 16 there was to let them know that was -- what was going 17 outside of the area that they -- they couldn't see 18 because some of them -- 19 Q: Right. 20 A: -- had never left that area. Maybe 21 they were afraid they would be arrested for some reason 22 or another so they -- I guess they basically stayed 23 inside of that area. I was only informing them what was 24 going on outside. 25 Q: I understand. I simply wanted to

1 clarify that during the course of your discussions with 2 them, that at no point did any of the occupiers indicate 3 that they wanted to speak with the police? The OPP 4 rather. 5 A: Not to my knowledge, no. 6 Q: And I trust also, sir, that at no 7 point did any of those same individuals with whom you had 8 contact, at no point did they say to you, I want to speak 9 with someone from the Kettle and Stony Point Police 10 Service? 11 A: No. Not that I can recall. 12 Q: No. 13 A: If they would have mentioned that, 14 then I would have went and talked to them. I assumed 15 that because what was taking place, that our -- our 16 Police Service down there might have been notified of 17 what the intention was going to be. That's what I -- I 18 took it. I mean because they're always notified of other 19 things and why not. 20 Maybe they weren't made -- they weren't, I 21 -- I don't know that. I know later they were involved in 22 it, but later was too late. 23 Q: Wells as I -- I indicated, sir, I 24 anticipate that your questions in that regard will be 25 answered later on during this Inquiry.

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: You were asked some questions 3 yesterday, sir, about your observation as to a collection 4 of -- of rocks or other materials by the fence line. The 5 fence line that separated the Park from the area that we 6 refer to as the sandy parking lot. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 9 that indeed, you did see the piling up of what looked 10 like rocks along the fence line when you were down there, 11 on September the 6th. 12 And it may be that you don't recall that, 13 and I'm going to assist you in that regard if that's the 14 case, but first of all I'm going to suggest to you that, 15 indeed, you did see something to that effect. 16 A: I may have, yes, that was years ago. 17 But I -- like I mentioned before, I wasn't really looking 18 for a pile of rocks, I was looking just for my sister and 19 brother. 20 Q: You had your priorities right. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: I may have seen then but I -- 24 Q: Just to -- 25 A: -- my mind's not clear on that.

1 Q: That's fine, sir, and what I want to 2 do, because you've given a number of statements to the 3 SIU over the years, I want to take you to those 4 statements just so that we can clarify the point. 5 You have a couple of binders in front of 6 you, sir. I'm going to ask you if you can open up the 7 binder and look at Tab 28. It's in Volume II, I'm 8 advised. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: And I'm advised that it's Inquiry 13 Document Number 1005689. And if you look, sir, I 14 understand that this is a transcript of an interview that 15 you had with the SIU on September the 2nd, 1997. You'll 16 see the date right at the top of Page 1. 17 A: What was that number? Could you 18 repeat it? 19 Q: The date is September the 2nd, 1997. 20 A: Yes, you're on page -- the first 21 page? 22 Q: I am, sir. And if you look at the 23 bottom of that first page you'll see that the officer 24 appears to have given you a copy of transcripts of your 25 two (2) previous interviews with the SIU, one dated

1 September the 7th, 1995 and one dated July the 18th, 2 1996. Do you see that? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And it would appear, sir, that you 5 were given an opportunity to read those transcripts and 6 to verify that they accurately reflected what you wanted 7 to tell the police on those occasions? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And so you recall then, I gather, 10 sir, reading those statements and agreeing as to the 11 correctness and accuracy of their contents? 12 A: Yes, I probably did. 13 Q: Actually, if you turn the page and 14 you look at top at Page 2, you'll see indeed that that 15 is what you did. 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Good, all right. So, I'm now going 18 to ask you to flip to Tab 21, which I suspect is in the 19 other Volume. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: No. 21 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: No? In the 22 same Volume, I'm told. 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 25 Q: And for the record, that's Document

1 Number 1002272. And you'll see, sir, this is a 2 transcript of your interview of July the 18th, 1996. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. If I could ask you, sir, 5 to turn to Page 10 of that interview transcript. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: And about half way down the page, 10 sir, you'll see that officer Kennedy asked you the 11 following question: 12 "Did you know First Nations people that 13 you saw that night had firearms?" 14 And your answer was as follows: 15 "No, I did not see anyone with any -- 16 any sort of firearm except for sticks 17 and looked like they were piling up 18 rocks or something along the fence or 19 something. I don't know what they were 20 piling up. I didn't go -- as like as I 21 mentioned, I just -- I stayed along the 22 fence line there." 23 I trust, sir, then that that assists in 24 refreshing your memory that you saw something, at least, 25 being piled up along the fence line which --

1 A: Yes. One (1) of the people there 2 with my brother Stacey, he was piling up firewood. And 3 like I mentioned earlier they had two (2) fires in there. 4 I didn't really look at exactly what he 5 was doing. I know he had some firewood piled up there 6 and there was another pile of stuff that was kind of -- 7 it wasn't really lit up in there. 8 Q: I understand. 9 A: It might have been a pile of rocks, 10 it might have been sticks there beside it but I wasn't 11 really paying attention to what he -- there was. 12 There was a pile of something but -- like 13 I said I'm not exactly sure what it was. I said in my 14 statement it might have been stones, sticks, I'm not 15 exactly sure. 16 Q: I understand, sir. I'm also, sir, 17 and it -- it's again the same lines. You very fairly 18 acknowledged yesterday that having regard to the passage 19 of time, your recollection of some of the details is 20 understandably, not perfect. 21 And I wanted to also suggest to you that 22 when you went back to the Park, on that second occasion, 23 some time between ten and eleven o'clock at night I think 24 you told us was the time. 25 I'm going to suggest to you, sir, that at

1 that time you actually saw occupiers in the sandy parking 2 lot, outside of the Park. 3 A: On my way there? 4 Q: Once you got there. 5 A: Okay. 6 Q: Are you agreeing that that's the 7 case? What I can do, sir, again I have two (2) areas 8 that I can take you to in the materials that might assist 9 you in refreshing your memory. And I want to be fair to 10 you in that regard. 11 A: When I got there, I'm trying to 12 recall, this was years ago, my brother was down on the 13 north end of that Park gathering firewood and I told him 14 be careful. 15 And I looked around, and I -- my mind's 16 not really clear on -- like there wasn't a lot --a lot of 17 movement in the area of the sandy parking lot, because it 18 was -- it was kind of -- it was dark in that area and you 19 could see the fire up below the hill as you're coming 20 along the beach, you could see the fire glowing. 21 And you could see people moving, the 22 shadows, it was hard to tell if they were outside of that 23 fence or inside of that fence at -- where I was standing 24 below the hill. We could just see the shadows moving. 25 Q: Okay. I'm going to take you to two

1 (2) documents that might assist you in this regard. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you still have Tab 21 open there? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. I would like to take you 6 to page 2 and page 3 of that document. You'll see, sir, 7 at the bottom of page 2, you're referring to your brother 8 Jeremiah accompanying you as you're walking along the 9 beach. So we know that what you're about to speak of is 10 your second trip to the Park. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And if you turn to the next page, if 13 you count down about ten (10) lines from the top, it 14 says: 15 "And my concern was the safety of the 16 people that were there around that Park 17 -- in that Park wherever they were. I 18 didn't know until I got there and there 19 was -- there was some people walking 20 around outside the area of the -- of 21 the Park. On the area of which this 22 took place outside the Park." 23 Now I acknowledge that later on you also 24 refer to seeing people down at the beach. 25 A: Yes, it was my brother.

1 Q: And -- and I don't take issue with 2 that but I trust, sir, that when you were speaking of 3 'the area of which this took place' the only thing we've 4 heard of of any significance that took place -- took 5 place in that sandy parking lot. Would you agree with 6 that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. Does this assist you then, 9 sir, in recalling that when you got there between 10:00 10 and 11:00, there were actually occupiers in the sandy 11 parking lot? 12 A: There may have been. I'm still not 13 really clear, yeah, I made that statement, I'm still not 14 really clear about that one (1). I did actually reach 15 that area. 16 Q: I trust, sir, you'd agree with me 17 that your recollection of the events would have been 18 fresher in your mind in July of 1996, than they are 19 today? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Just by virtue of the passing of 22 time. And -- and no doubt, sir, you were telling the 23 truth to the police when you -- you indicated that to 24 them? 25 A: Just -- I'm thinking about when I got

1 there. I -- obviously I can't really remember that they 2 were walking around outside that Park, yet I had 3 mentioned it in -- in a statement to the police. 4 Q: Okay. Let me take you to another 5 passage that again might assist you. And if you could 6 turn, sir, to Tab 32 of the materials in front of you. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: I understand, sir, that you were 11 called to testify at the trial of Warren George. Is that 12 correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And I understand, sir, that you gave 15 evidence in that regard on December the 15th, 1997? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And if you look at Tab 32, we have a 18 transcription of your evidence, and that for the record, 19 is Document Number 1004977. And if I could take you, 20 sir, to Page 85 of the transcript. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: And again, just so that you know to 25 which trip you are referring, if you look back at Page 84

1 around Line 15, you'll see that you are referencing your 2 walking along the beach with your brother Jeremiah. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. So, if we turn to Page 85, 5 you're talking about coming along the beach and at the 6 top of the page, you indicated to the Court: 7 "It looked like they were trying to 8 build a fire or something there, so I 9 told them, I says, things don't look 10 good. I says, there's a lot of police 11 up over there. I don't know what the 12 heck's going to go -- I don't know what 13 the heck's" -- 14 I guess it's "going on", 15 "I told them to be careful. And then I 16 walked up along the road. There's a 17 little roadway and that goes up onto 18 the little parking lot there." 19 Then you go on and you talk about speaking 20 to some of the people at the fence line and then you go 21 on, at the bottom of the page and you indicate: 22 "I say, I'll go out on the road" 23 And I'm at about Line 28, Mr. George, just 24 so you can follow me, 25 "I say I'll go out on the road and see

1 what's going on and let you know if it 2 is safe or not. So there was a couple 3 of other guys that were walking around 4 outside the fence in the parking lot 5 area." 6 If you turn the page, you go on: 7 "They were walking around right at the 8 corner where it turns and heads west 9 away from the Park area. 10 Q: And this is on Parkway Drive? 11 A: Yeah, they were just walking around 12 outside in that parking lot area." 13 Now, again sir, I trust because of the 14 timing of this particular evidence, it was given in 15 December of 1997, closer to the events in question, I 16 trust that your memory would have been better at that 17 point -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- as to the events? All right. So 20 you'd agree with me, sir, that in all likelihood, you 21 indeed saw some of the occupiers in that sandy parking 22 lot when you arrive there at your second trip? 23 A: It may have been, yes. 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: If I had made that statement then

1 that's probably the way it was but to this date I -- I 2 can't -- my mind's kind of -- kind of blank that way. 3 Q: I understand, sir. Mr. George, thank 4 you very much for your time and for your candour. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 9 Mr. Downard...? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Morning, Mr. 14 Commissioner. 15 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 17 Q: Good morning, sir, my name's Peter 18 Downard and I appear for the former Ontario Premier Mike 19 Harris. And I would just like to ask you a -- a few 20 questions mainly involving your experience as a 21 councillor of the Kettle and Stony Point Band. 22 And first of all I -- I take it that in 23 1995 the Kettle and Stony Point Band sought to represent 24 the interests of all members of the Band? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And that would include people who 2 resided at Kettle Point at the time? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And people who resided at the Stony 5 Point lands at the time? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And would that also include people 8 who lived off the Kettle Point reservation and -- and 9 away from the Stony Point lands? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Do you recall roughly how many 12 members of the Kettle and Stoney Point Band there were in 13 1995, in that period? 14 A: No, I can't -- exact numbers, no. 15 Q: Oh I would -- it's not a quiz. Do 16 you have any general recollection of a -- of a rough 17 estimate of about how many members there were? 18 A: Three thousand (3000). Off and on 19 the reserve. 20 Q: And I -- I take it that there would 21 be a Band list identifying -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- identifying the members of the 24 Band? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And in 1995 as I understand it that 2 the chief and the council were elected by those members 3 of the Band, based on the list, who chose to exercise 4 their right to vote? 5 A: Yes. I -- I said three thousand 6 (3000), that would be tops. It's probably less than 7 that. 8 Q: But the chief and council in 1995 9 were elected by those of the members who decided to vote? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And in 1995 how -- how often were 12 elections held? 13 A: Every second year. 14 Q: And would there be campaigning in 15 these elections? 16 A: Yes, some did campaign, others 17 didn't. 18 Q: And once the election was held and 19 the chief and council of the Kettle and Stoney Point Band 20 had been elected, I take it it's fair to say that they 21 had a democratic mandate from the people who voted for 22 them to do their jobs? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And I take it that in carrying out 25 that mandate, the Kettle and Stoney Point chief and

1 council while you were involved dealt with a -- a wide 2 variety of issues of -- of concern to its membership of 3 First Nations people? 4 A: There were a number of issues, yes. 5 Q: A wide variety of issues? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And I take it that as -- as far as 8 you have observed in your experience with the council, 9 that in carrying out those tasks, the -- the Kettle and 10 Stoney Point Band chief and council, acted with the 11 intention of advancing the interests of all the members 12 of the Band, right? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And, I take it that in the -- the 15 course of the work of the Band chief and council while 16 you were involved, the chief and council developed a good 17 deal of knowledge about concerns and issues affecting 18 First Nations people in the Stoney Point and Kettle Point 19 area? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And so would you agree that, as a 22 result of that, if -- if someone wanted information about 23 what the issues and concerns of First Nations people in 24 the area were, it would be reasonable for them to look to 25 the -- the Band Chief and Council for that information?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And I understand also, that in 1995, 3 there was a -- a Band administrator named Elizabeth 4 Thunder. Did you know her in 1995? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And how long had she been the Band 7 administrator at that time? Do you recall? 8 A: A year or two before I became one of 9 the Council. 10 Q: So that would be a year or two (2) 11 before 1992? 12 A: Yeah. It was around there. I'm not 13 exactly sure. 14 Q: Sure. And was she from the local 15 community? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And from your perspective as a 18 Councillor, while -- while you were on the Council, what 19 were her functions, generally speaking, as a Band 20 administrator? 21 A: Her functions were wide. They were 22 taking care of many of the areas that we had to deal 23 with. There was a wide area that she had to take care 24 was -- that she was involved in negotiations of the 25 return of the lands from -- at Stony Point, health,

1 education. She had a wide variety of operations she had 2 to deal with. 3 Q: She was a full-time employee? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. 6 A: I -- I don't know about full time. 7 That's kind of a tricky word to use when you're employed. 8 So she was employed, I'll put it that way. 9 Q: But in any event, she was extensively 10 engaged in -- 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: -- working for the Band? Right? 13 That's correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: All right. So I take it that you 16 would agree that as well, if someone in 1995 wanted 17 information about positions of the Kettle and Stoney 18 Point Band and Council on particular issues, it would be 19 helpful and reasonable for them to contact Ms. Thunder as 20 the Band administrator? 21 A: Yes, there was other means of 22 obtaining information if you needed them. 23 Q: Yes, but she would be one reasonable 24 source, right? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And from time to time she might be 2 authorized to inform people about the Band's position on 3 issues? 4 A: She had a certain position, yes. 5 Q: A "certain position"? 6 A: Yeah, to -- like -- she could -- her 7 responsibilities were not full that she had full 8 authority to make decisions on her own. These -- part of 9 these came from direction of the chief and the Council. 10 Q: Okay. And did she have authority to 11 communicate with the public about matters of concern to 12 the Band? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. All right. Now, as I 15 understand it, one of the things that the Band did quite 16 obviously, on behalf of its Members, during the 1995 17 time, was to deal with land claims, right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And in particular in 1995 there was a 20 land claim regarding the beaches at Kettle point, that 21 had been in negotiation with the federal government for 22 some time? 23 A: Yes, the whole area in -- down -- 24 down there was -- they were looking at that, yes. 25 Q: And, in fact, there was a lawsuit

1 commenced over that in, I believe, May of 1995. Does 2 that accord with your recollection? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And as I understand it, in 5 1995 the Kettle and Stoney Point Band employed a land 6 claims researcher named Victor Gilowich (phonetic)? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you knew of him in 1995? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: How long had he been working with the 11 band? 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 A: Two (2) maybe three (3) years. I'm 16 not exactly sure on approximate time that he did his 17 investigations into the land claim. 18 Q: Okay. But that's your -- your -- 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: -- rough estimate? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And was he from the local community? 23 A: No. 24 Q: All right. And from your perspective 25 as a councillor in 1995, what was Mr. Gilowich doing?

1 A: It's his job was to research and 2 identify information that was -- would be important to -- 3 the research and return of these lands down there at 4 Stony Point, along with other -- any information that he 5 gathered during his -- his -- the course that he was 6 employed by the Band. 7 Q: So -- so that would often be 8 historical information? 9 A: Yes, it was not only to deal with the 10 lands down there. There was other lands that we had 11 questioned and he was researching a wide area of -- 12 trying to update information for us. 13 Q: So -- so he was reviewing a -- a wide 14 area of historical questions? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And I -- I take it then that if 17 someone wanted information about the Band's position or 18 the state of its knowledge about land claims and that a - 19 - a good person to speak at the time would have been Mr. 20 Gilowich right? 21 A: Yes, he -- he knew quite a bit about 22 the research that he was obtaining for us. 23 Q: And at the time he would probably be 24 the person with the best information on those subjects, 25 right?

1 A: He was gathering it, yes. And he was 2 putting information together as more -- as he went 3 along. 4 Q: So he was probably the best source of 5 information? 6 A: Yes. I wouldn't say the best. There 7 was different areas, but he was -- that was his position 8 to research for us. 9 Q: It was -- it was certainly something 10 that -- that as far as you could perceive, he developed a 11 good deal of expertise? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. All right. Now I -- I want to 14 turn to the -- the matter of burial grounds in the Park. 15 And the Inquiry has heard evidence, from a number of 16 Stony Point people, describing information that had been 17 given to them by Elders and others, prior to September of 18 1995, regarding the existence of burial grounds in the 19 Park. 20 And it's a -- it's a matter of public 21 record, at least to the extent that one can regard print 22 media as public record, that the Band said that it did 23 not know about burial grounds in the Park at the time. 24 And just to assist with that, I'd refer to 25 an article ...

1 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 Q: And just for the assistance of 5 counsel, this is Document 1009635, and I just want to 6 refer to a couple of these articles by way of background 7 then I'll be asking you a question about them. Oh, if 8 you'd like to take a moment to -- to read the article as 9 well, please take as long you'd like. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: And I'm just going to be referring to 14 the article at the top part of the page, sir. And 15 perhaps you could just let me know when you're finished. 16 And if you could verbalize your answer, please, sir. 17 If you could speak your answer because of 18 the -- the transcript that's being taken. A nod 19 doesn't -- 20 A: You'll have to repeat that question 21 there. 22 Q: Sure. I just wanted you to tell me 23 when you were finished reading the article in the top 24 half of the page? 25 A: Yes, I'm done.

1 Q: Thank you. 2 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Mr. Commissioner, 3 I think, in fairness to the witness, he should be given 4 the time and permitted, indeed encouraged, to read the 5 entire article rather than simply the part My Friend 6 wishes to refer to. 7 MR. PETER DOWNARD: That's not -- I 8 haven't intended to refer the witness to only part of the 9 article. The only article I'm referring to is the 10 article that is at the top half of the page. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 12 MR. PETER DOWNARD: And I don't -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The bottom 14 half doesn't refer to the same -- 15 MR. PETER DOWNARD: No. It's a carry 16 over from another story. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is that 18 okay, Mr. Henderson? The top part of the page is, I 19 think, the whole article. I think. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 24 Q: Have you seen this article before, 25 sir?

1 A: Yes. I may have read it the News. 2 Q: And then if -- if you had read it in 3 the news you probably would have read it on or about the 4 day of its publication which was the 7th September, 1995? 5 A: I think I might have been in custody 6 at that time and I never had access to newspapers. 7 Q: Sure. Okay. Now, you'll see that in 8 the -- the first two (2) paragraphs of the article, and 9 I'm just going to direct you to this report of this 10 statement and then another one and then I'll ask -- I'll 11 be getting to a question. This is just background. 12 But you'll see that it says: 13 "There's some speculation that natives 14 occupying Ipperwash Provincial Park are 15 there because a sacred burial ground is 16 on the land. But Victor Gilowich land 17 claims researcher for the Kettle and 18 Stoney Point Band says he can find no 19 evidence of a burial ground at the 20 site." 21 Unquote. And then there's one more 22 article I want to show you as well, sir. And this, for 23 the record, is document 1000671. And, it's an article 24 from the Windsor Star, dated December 7, 1995, and I 25 apologize for the small print; that's what I got when I

1 pressed print on the computer. 2 But perhaps if you could take a minute to 3 read that article. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Can we put 5 this on the screen? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I can put this on the 7 screen, yes. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Because the 9 print is just too fine to read, I think. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, one of 14 the things we could do is -- is simply take the copy of 15 the article that Mr. George has and have it blown up on 16 the photocopier because it is very difficult to read. 17 And it's difficult to read, even on the screen. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The article 19 on the screen is a little easier to read than the hard 20 copy. Can you read it, Mr. George, either on the screen 21 or in a hard copy? Pretty hard to read but I think it's 22 easier on the screen? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's easier on the 24 screen. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I can -- well perhaps,

42
  1  Mr. George, if you would let -- if you would like to read
  2  it on the screen, just let me know and I can move the --
  3  move the article when you're done.
  4                 THE WITNESS:   Oh, I could read it here. 
  5  Just some of the words are -- letters are close together.
  6                 MR. PETER DOWNARD:   Commissioner, I only
  7  intend to take the witness to a very small portion of the
  8  article in the third column, but again, given My Friend's
  9  concerns, I -- I want the witness to read it all.
 10  
 11                      (BRIEF PAUSE) 
 12  
 13                 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN:   Mr.
 14  Millar...?
 15                 MS. KAREN JONES:   Mr. Commissioner, I'm
 16  sorry to interrupt.  I think we have a better copy and
 17  it'll be clearer on the screen.
 18                 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN:   That's fine,
 19  thank you very much.
 20  
 21                      (BRIEF PAUSE) 
 22  
 23                 MR. DERRY MILLAR:   That's Inquiry
 24  Document 2001764 and I'd like to thank Ms. Jones for
 25  pointing that out.

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, thanks. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 9 Q: Sir, have you now read the document? 10 A: Yes, and it wasn't very clear on the 11 first part. But I went through most of it, yes. 12 Q: Now, sir, if you look at the first 13 column in the -- the document in the second paragraph, 14 you'll see there's a reference to Elizabeth Thunder, the 15 Band administrator for the Kettle and Stoney Point -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: -- Band. All right. And then if you 18 can go over to the third column, at the top of the third 19 column there's -- there's reference to a person from the 20 Ministry of Natural Resources and I'm going to read -- 21 it's -- into the record the little segment here above the 22 sub-headline "Frayed Nerves". 23 It reads, and I quote: 24 "Daryl Smith, an Information Officer 25 with the Ministry of Natural Resources

1 called the occupation illegal. He 2 noted the land is private property and 3 the occupiers are trespassing." 4 Paragraph: 5 "He said there is no land claim, quote, 6 'that we're aware of', unquote, on 7 Ipperwash Park." 8 Paragraph: 9 "An archeological study turned up no 10 evidence the land was ever a tribal 11 burial ground. That has been one of 12 the motives attributed to the occupiers 13 for taking over the Park. 14 Thunder confirms that there has been no 15 historical land claim on the Park and 16 she added that native Elders are 17 unaware of any burial grounds there." 18 So, this is a fairly long way around to 19 the questions. But, the question I have for you, sir, as 20 someone who was closely involved in Band governance at 21 the time, is whether you're aware of any explanation for 22 statements about Stony -- by Stony Point persons about a 23 burial ground existing in the Park and their knowing 24 about a burial ground in the Park, prior to 1995. 25 And, on the other hand, the apparent

1 statements of the Band administrator and land claims 2 researcher at the time, being so different. 3 In other words, on the one hand we've 4 heard a number of Stony Point people saying that before 5 1995 they had been informed by Elders and others that 6 there was a burial ground in the Park. 7 On the other hand, at the time -- I think 8 there's an objection. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 10 you've got to finish your question, don't you? 11 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: I have to wait until 12 after I've heard him anyway, go ahead. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm still 14 writing down your question, so... 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 17 Q: I was wondering whether as a matter 18 of fact, sir, given your experience at the time, as a 19 member of the Band Council, whether you are aware of any 20 facts which could explain this apparent difference -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, do you 22 want -- I'm sorry, are you finished? 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 25 Q: And I was just going to specify, the

1 differences between Stony Point persons saying that they 2 were informed prior to September of 1995 about a burial 3 ground in the Park and the Band administrator and the 4 Band claims researcher saying at the time in the context 5 of the press reports we've looked at, in September of 6 1995, that they were not aware of any burial ground in 7 the Park. 8 I'm just wondering whether, in your 9 experience, you have any facts that you're aware of that 10 could help us to understand why there was that 11 difference? 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Now, are you 13 objecting to that question, Mr. Ross; and if so, on what 14 basis? 15 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: Mr. Commissioner, to be 16 facetious, I should ask him to repeat the question but I 17 wouldn't do that. But what I would do -- what I would do 18 is to draw to your attention, Mr. Commissioner, that when 19 I referred to Inquiry Document Number 1003921 and I was 20 getting into this section where it reads: 21 "But a week after George's death, 22 federal Indian Affairs Minister Ron 23 Irwin made a bombshell announcement 24 about the Park." 25 Irwin, that's the Minister, the guy who a

1 little above Liz Thunder, says: 2 "Irwin released papers that suggested 3 Indians were right and there indeed was 4 a Chippewa burial ground in the site." 5 Now the point is, that when I was 6 referring to these documents, Mr. Commissioner, very 7 correctly, you and Commission Counsel indicated that it's 8 a newspaper article and we cannot take it as fact -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 10 MR. ANTHONY ROSS: And I just like to be 11 sure that we will be consistent with that approach where 12 we read another newspaper article. Thank you, Mr. 13 Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I have a different 16 objection. The -- my objection is the question is, as I 17 understand it, there is a difference between what the 18 Stony Point -- as My Friend Mr. Downard said, the Stony 19 Point people and -- on -- as of September 7th, 1995 and 20 what was said by Ms. Thunder and how can -- do you have 21 any facts that explain the difference? 22 In my submission that's not a proper 23 question for this witness. The -- he can be asked what 24 he knows, what he did, he -- it's -- it's -- he can't 25 explain the Stony Point -- the people that we've heard of

1 from Stony Point have given their evidence and there's a 2 -- I -- I agree with My Friend, Mr. Ross that a newspaper 3 article is simply a newspaper article. 4 But apparently Ms. Thunder made these 5 comments and it's -- I don't know how this witness can 6 say well, why did the Stony Point people say these -- 7 this issue -- this, and why Ms. Thunder said that. 8 He just can't answer it. He can -- he can 9 answer questions as to what he knew, what he did, what he 10 observed, not what other people were thinking. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think -- 12 yes, Mr. Downard, I think that makes sense. 13 MR. PETER DOWNARD: Well I'll -- I'll 14 move on, Mr. Commissioner, I -- I -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 MR. PETER DOWNARD: -- I could debate it 17 with My Friend, but I'm not going to. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER DOWNARD: 20 Q: You did tell us, sir, in your 21 previous evidence here, that you visited the -- the 22 occupied land quite a number of times from 1993 through 23 1995? 24 A: A number, yes. Not -- not a real lot 25 just -- I went there and I was just -- now and then.

1 Q: You -- you camped out in 1993, right? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you visited your sister there, 4 particularly in 1995? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And you did testify those were 7 relatively brief visits? 8 A: Not a lot. No I would just go there 9 shortly to see how she was and left. 10 Q: And you testified that there other 11 councillors who visited the Stony Point lands and the 12 occupiers there from time to time? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And during the period of 1993 to 1995 15 there were a number of meetings and contacts and 16 discussions between members of the Kettle and Stoney 17 Point Band council, and the occupiers? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And to your knowledge, as of 20 September of 1995, had the people occupying the Stony 21 Point land, at that time, ever come to the Kettle and 22 Stoney Point chief and council and ask for assistance in 23 protecting a burial ground in the Provincial Park land? 24 Do you recall that ever happening? 25 A: No, I'm not aware of that, no. There

1 may have been but I was -- I'm not aware. I didn't have 2 a lot of dealings what was going on at that time -- our 3 chief at the -- at that present time may have a better 4 answer than I. 5 Q: Sure, maybe we'll hear in this 6 Inquiry from Ms. Thunder or Mr. Gilowich? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And we expect to hear from Mr. 9 Bressette as well, the chief. Now, on Monday, you spoke 10 about attending the army camp in 1993 and Maynard T. 11 George refused to let you onto the land, do you recall 12 that? 13 A: I'm not exactly sure what year it 14 was. It was when they first moved onto the land in the 15 range area, whatever year that was. Yes, he denied me 16 access. 17 Q: Okay. And when this happened he said 18 that you needed a Stony Point card to enter the land 19 there and you just shook your head and walked away? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And why did you shake your head? 22 A: I was -- thought it was useless 23 talking to that person at that time because I felt he 24 never really understood why he was there and the real 25 purpose of why he was there and his whole intentions. He

1 was kind of -- I -- I -- just couldn't understand him and 2 a lot of people couldn't. 3 Q: What was this thing called a Stony 4 Point card? 5 A: I have no idea. It was what he 6 mentioned to me and I just -- that's why I just shook my 7 head and walked away. 8 Q: Okay. And we have heard evidence 9 about some First Nations people with historical ties to 10 the Stony Point lands considering Stony Point people to 11 be a separate Band from the Kettle and Stoney Point Band. 12 Are you aware of -- of those sorts of 13 views being -- existing in the area? 14 A: There was all kinds of discussions 15 and talks about separation and a lot of them came from 16 him. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: And I told him he should be careful 19 on a word -- on the words he chooses, between people 20 'cause some are going to disagree with him. And I just - 21 - I told him, don't be using that kind of word. 22 Q: Okay. Now, next question you may not 23 know about, but as someone who was involved in governance 24 in the Kettle and Stoney Point Band in the 1995 period, 25 were you aware of the extent to which a separate Band,

1 calling itself the Stony Point Band, had been organized? 2 Whether it had any established governing 3 structure or established membership, and so on? 4 A: I was not involved in discussions 5 from the ones who were in their talks. There was all 6 kind of rumours and stuff like that, but I -- I didn't 7 really take to rumours and, yes, there was -- there was - 8 - I'll be honest that there was talks and that word came 9 -- came about and I -- I couldn't -- I didn't want to see 10 that. I didn't want to hear that. 11 Q: So that's not -- that's not something 12 you were closely involved in? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. Now, Monday you said that you 15 discouraged your sister from moving onto the -- the Army 16 camp. Do you recall that? 17 A: I talked to her about it and -- 18 before she moved on -- into the barracks area. I told -- 19 I let her know, you know, to be careful and if she wanted 20 to do that, then I couldn't stop her. 21 I told her it wasn't a good idea, but I 22 told her if she wanted to I can't stop her and be 23 careful. 24 Q: And why did you think it was not a 25 good idea?

1 A: I just felt tense about -- about her, 2 because she was kind of living on her own and her -- her 3 son, he was just at a young age then and she was going 4 through an experience in her life that I don't think she 5 really understood, so I was kind of trying to guide her 6 but I couldn't stop her. 7 You asked -- I think you're referring to 8 is -- you're trying to tell me that it was not a safe 9 place? If I didn't feel it was a safe place, I wouldn't 10 -- I wouldn't have let her go in there. I would stopped 11 her directly, but I felt it was safe for her to go in 12 there, so. 13 Q: I wasn't trying to tell you anything. 14 I was just trying to find out -- 15 A: Well, I -- 16 Q: -- what your reasoning was -- 17 A: Sorry, that's the impression I 18 received from you. 19 Q: People get that impression from 20 lawyers, sometimes. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: I don't know where they get it. 23 That's a lame attempt at humour. 24 A: I'm -- 25 Q: All right. And -- and as I

1 understand it, as of July of 1995, Chief Tom Bressette 2 had -- had publicly stated that the Kettle and Stoney 3 Point Band did not support the occupiers to the Stony 4 Point lands. Is that your recollection? 5 A: That was his words, yes. That was... 6 Q: And, at the August 1 meeting which -- 7 which you described of the Band Council and -- and the 8 public, Chief Bressette indicated at that meeting that 9 he'd been working with Carl George. 10 Do you recall that? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And Carl George said at that meeting 13 that he had had difficulties with the Stony Point people, 14 the people in occupation of the lands, because he had 15 been working with Chief Bressette. 16 Do you recall that? 17 A: I wasn't part of -- a lot of the 18 meetings that the Chief and Carl had together. They -- 19 sometimes he came and approached the council and had some 20 meeting with the chief and council but not all the time, 21 no. 22 Q: But -- but do you -- what I'm 23 suggesting is that -- 24 A: Yes, I recall some of the times that 25 Carl met with the chief.

1 Q: -- yes, so -- so you recall that -- 2 that Carl expressed concern that he was being criticized 3 by some Stony Point occupiers for working with Chief 4 Bressette? 5 A: I don't recall it but I -- I know he 6 was kind of -- I'm trying to think of the word now. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: Well, sir, -- well, sir, Exhibit P-43 11 in the Inquiry is a copy of the -- the meeting notes, a 12 transcript of the discussion that Mr. Millar reviewed 13 with you on Monday, which is also Document 6000354. 14 And you'll see, if you look at -- at page 15 17 of the minutes, there are some words attributed to 16 Carl George, at about the middle of the page, as follows. 17 Do you see that, sir? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. And, I propose to simply read 20 the paragraph into the record. He is quoted as saying, 21 and I quote: 22 "I would like to speak on this paper 23 here. Three (3) years ago we started 24 talking about this here. A lot of 25 people don't like me right now. But I

1 push for this because I thought 2 everyone should be treated fairly. 3 There was a lack of communication. The 4 only thing we were trying to do was to 5 get people to pull together. With this 6 paper here I had a few friends, or I 7 thought I had, but they are against me 8 now. But I don't know what else to do. 9 I work with Tom and I'm hated for that 10 -- called a traitor. I know I've made 11 a lot of mistakes but I'm man enough to 12 admit them. I hope we can try to pull 13 together. I feel sorry for the people 14 of Stony Point but I'm not wanted there 15 anymore. People are coming in from 16 other reserves and from the States. 17 It was suggested that the council go 18 there and exert their authority. But 19 everyone has to be behind them. 20 Everyone on this reserve. We have to 21 get something resolved here and fairly 22 fast. This has gone on long enough. I 23 lost a brother over this, it's not 24 easy." 25 Unquote. Now, sir, does that assist you or

1 refresh your memory as to Carl George expressing concerns 2 that he was being criticized by people among the Stony 3 Point occupiers for working with Chief Bressette, during 4 this time frame? 5 A: That was true, I guess. 6 Q: Well is that your recollection of 7 what was going on at the time? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Yes? Thank you. And Mr. Millar 10 asked you about the -- the letter, stating certain 11 principles, upon which the -- the Kettle Point and -- 12 Kettle and Stoney Point Band people and the Stony Point 13 occupiers could hopefully move forward in dealing with -- 14 with the issues that -- that concern them. A letter that 15 was produced as a result of this meeting. 16 Do you recall that? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And, as I understand it, you were not 19 involved in the attempt to deliver that letter to the 20 Stony Point occupiers, right? 21 A: No, I was not. 22 Q: But I -- I take it though that you -- 23 you were informed that Chief Bressette attempted to 24 deliver that letter to the occupiers and they would not 25 accept it, right?

1 A: I don't know what took place down 2 there, discussions that anyone had. I just -- the word 3 that came back was there was a lack of communication and 4 that's all I understand. 5 Q: And do you recall that after that 6 lack of communication, Chief Bressette said publicly that 7 he would not approach the Stony Point occupiers again? 8 A: I don't recall that, no. 9 Q: Okay, well we'll take that up with 10 Chief Bressette when he arrives. Did you -- did you have 11 any understanding as to why there was this lack of 12 communication when the Chief sought to deliver this 13 letter? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. Now, I'd like to ask you 16 a little bit about the local town governance, the local 17 Mayor and municipal Council. 18 And -- and I take it that the -- well, 19 first of all, what I would like to know is whether the 20 Kettle and Stoney Point Band and the local town 21 governance ever engaged in meetings or communications 22 about the occupation of the former Army camp lands, to 23 your knowledge. 24 A: No, I don't -- if there was, then 25 there may have been, but I might have not of -- I don't

1 recall them. I know that I attended quite a few of the 2 meetings and there was not no -- like I mentioned in my - 3 - it may have been short meetings. 4 Q: But -- but you're -- 5 A: I can't recall. 6 Q: But you're not aware of any 7 communications between the two (2) governing parties -- 8 A: No, no. 9 Q: -- about the issue? 10 A: No. There was concern. I mean there 11 might have been private discussions between the Chief and 12 -- or governments outside of the Kettle Point but, no ... 13 Q: Right but we -- we can only be 14 assisted by what you recall and what you observed. 15 A: Yes, the Chief had a lot more 16 responsibility than others. 17 Q: Sure. Now, you were also saying 18 that, I believe this morning, that -- or you indicated 19 this morning that at the -- the time of the occupation 20 you watched news about the occupation in early September 21 '95, on television? 22 A: Yes. It was mainly about -- not 23 directly involved about the occupation at the Park. It 24 was about the people that were inside the land down 25 there. There wasn't really lot about the occupation of

1 the Park in the media. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: And then it just came just like that. 4 It happened so quick. I mean it... 5 Q: Sure. Do -- do you recall, though, 6 that once it happened on -- on the 4th, there was local 7 media coverage -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- that you saw? 10 A: Yes. I believe seeing bits and 11 pieces on TV. 12 Q: Okay. And, I believe you also 13 indicated this morning that -- that when you went down to 14 the Park, you wanted to inform the people there of what 15 was going on outside? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you sought -- you attempted to do 18 that, right? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And, did it come to your attention, 21 because I don't intend to take you to all these 22 documents, but there are numerous -- there are numerous 23 contemporary media reports, and I'll just rhyme off some 24 document numbers for the record; 1000657, 1009634, 25 1000662, 1000661, and 1003834, indicating that -- and,

1 pardon me, and 1006677, indicating that, prior to the -- 2 the events of the night of September 6th, the government 3 could be seeking an injunction against the occupiers in 4 the Park. 5 Did you have any awareness when you 6 arrived at the Park on the evening of the 6th, that an 7 injunction could be sought against the occupiers; that 8 you -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- had gained from the media? 11 A: Yes, there was word that that could 12 possibly take place. 13 Q: And did you convey that to any of the 14 occupiers in the Park? 15 A: No, I did not. 16 Q: Okay. All right. Thank you very 17 much, sir. Those are my questions. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 19 very much, Mr. Downard. 20 Mr. O'Marra, you said you had a couple of 21 questions? 22 MR. AL O'MARRA: I do, sir, thank you. 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. AL O'MARRA: 25 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. My name is

1 Al O'Marra and I appear on behalf of the Chief Coroner. 2 We're assisting the Commission principally 3 on issues involving emergency medical services around the 4 events of September 6th of 1995. 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Right. And I have just a -- a couple 7 of questions that I'd like to ask you, one around your 8 condition during the transport of you from the area of 9 the Park, to the hospital in Strathroy on September 6th, 10 the first area. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And the second is any observations 13 you made about that Ministry of Natural Resources parking 14 lot on East Parkway Drive on September 6th. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. Now, as you know, Mr. George, 17 one of the purposes of the Inquiry is to ensure that the 18 public record is correct and if there is any 19 misconception of events, that they be corrected. 20 A: That's what I'm aware of, sir. 21 Q: Yes. Now, as I understand it, Mr. 22 George, it had been reported in some publications about 23 these events that during the time that you were being 24 transported by ambulance, that you had no pulse, that 25 your heart had stopped. Had you heard this?

1 A: Bits and pieces, yes, and I read 2 through some of the documents that -- but I don't recall 3 too much of what happened on that ride there. 4 Q: No, you were in and out of 5 consciousness throughout that ride. 6 A: Yes, I guess I was. 7 Q: Okay. Now during the time that you 8 were in hospital, and indeed afterwards, did any doctor 9 say to you that your heart had stopped? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. And certainly, if that had 12 been the case, that was something that you would want to 13 have known? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And I anticipate, Mr. George, 16 that you will hear in the course of the Inquiry that -- 17 that that was an error in the perception of an ambulance 18 attendant. 19 So perhaps that might provide you with 20 some consolation that, in fact, your pulse and your heart 21 did not stop. 22 A: I don't know that. 23 Q: Okay. Did you receive any 24 information that that was a misperception on the part of 25 a -- a volunteer ambulance attendant?

1 A: No. 2 Q: No, okay. Now the other area that I 3 wanted to ask you about was when you were in the area of 4 the Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot, and I 5 understand you were in that area twice on September 6th, 6 one when you originally were going into the Park and then 7 secondly as you moved back up towards the parking lot 8 just before the conflict -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- the confrontation? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: When you were in that -- that area, 13 on either of those occasions, did you see vehicles that 14 appeared to be ambulances or had markings of ambulances? 15 A: There was different vehicles in there 16 but I really -- didn't really see what type they were -- 17 Q: No -- 18 A: -- 'cause there was police officers 19 that were standing all around and they were to the left 20 of the -- to the left of us and to the right and there 21 was a number of vehicles but I -- I can't specifically 22 identify any of them. 23 There was a lot of cruisers. Other than 24 that, I -- I couldn't really tell what type of vehicles 25 they were.

1 Q: All right. 2 A: It had started to get kind of dark by 3 then. 4 Q: Okay. Thank you, Mr. George. Those 5 are my questions. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 Mr. Henderson...? 8 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Thank you, 9 Commissioner. We have no questions at this time. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 11 Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Millar? 12 13 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: I have one question. You were asked 15 by Ms. Jones in her examination about the list of weapons 16 that you owned back in 1995 and I take the weapons you 17 owned -- and I take it that list was the list from 1995? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you referred to 22's and shotguns 20 and then -- and automatics and the question that I wanted 21 to know was the -- with respect to the automatic weapons, 22 did you own automatic weapons back in 1995? 23 A: Semi-automatic, yes. 24 Q: They were semi-automatic? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Not automatic. 2 A: No. 3 Q: Thank you. Those are my questions. 4 So I would like to on behalf of the Commission, thank Mr. 5 George for appearing and giving his evidence here at the 6 Public Inquiry. Thank you very much, Mr. George. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'd like to 8 say the same thing. Thank you very much for coming here 9 and giving us your evidence, Mr. George. You're finished 10 now, you're done. Thank you. 11 12 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 13 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And I would suggest 15 perhaps it would be an appropriate time for the morning 16 break. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, I think 18 so. I think we'll take a fifteen (15) minute break right 19 now. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 21 for fifteen (15) minutes. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 11:32 a.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 11:49 a.m. 25

1 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed. Please be seated. 3 MR. DONALD WORME: Right, good morning, 4 Mr. Commissioner. The Commission calls as the next 5 witness, then, Warren Anthony George. 6 7 WARREN ANTHONY GEORGE, JR., Sworn: 8 9 EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. DONALD WORME: 10 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 11 A: Good morning. 12 Q: Mr. George, you're presently a 13 resident of the Stony Point traditional territories, 14 formerly known as Ipperwash Army base, Army camp? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Right. And as I understand, you had 17 originally been a resident, or you had been raised and -- 18 and brought up in Kettle Point? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Your parents, can you just tell us a 21 bit about who they are? 22 A: Warren? My parents split up when 23 they were -- when I was about ten (10). My Mom lives in 24 Petrolia. 25 Q: Okay. Your mother is Kim Rude

1 (phonetic). Is that -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Did I pronounce that properly? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And your father is Warren George, 6 Sr.? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And where -- where does 9 he reside? 10 A: Kettle Point. 11 Q: I understand that your birth date is 12 the 23rd of December, 1972? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: So you will be thirty-two (32) years 15 of age here fairly shortly? 16 A: I think so, yes. 17 Q: And when you say "I think so", I get 18 the impression you're not sure. 19 A: I don't pay attention to dates too 20 often. 21 Q: All right. You were related to 22 Dudley George. Can you tell us how you were related to 23 the late Dudley George? 24 A: Dudley's father was my grandpa's 25 brother.

1 Q: And that would be Dan George Sr.? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So your grandfather is Dan George 4 Sr.? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And we understand that he was an 7 original or originally from the Stony Point reserve? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And your grandmother then would be 10 Melva George? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And she had died just recently, as I 13 understand. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And she was originally from Kettle 16 Point? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And your mother's parents are Shirley 19 and George Morden (phonetic)? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. I understand that your 22 grandfather, George Morden, has passed away? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And your grandmother, where is she 25 now?

1 A: Living in Sarnia. 2 Q: Okay. You have brothers and sisters, 3 Mr. George. Could you tell us about -- about them, 4 please? 5 A: Harley, Leanne and Nola (phonetic). 6 Q: Okay. Are they younger than you, 7 older than you? 8 A: All of them are younger. 9 Q: Okay. And I understand that you're 10 currently employed, Mr. George. Could you tell us about 11 that? 12 A: Yeah, I'm in charge of a water and 13 sewer treatment system down at the Army camp. 14 Q: All right. And what does that entail 15 in terms of being in charge of that? 16 A: Making sure the water tower is full 17 of water and making sure the sewage treatment system is 18 running right, and greasing the motors here and there. 19 Q: All right. Do you have any duties 20 insofar as ensuring water quality? 21 A: Chlorinating and testing the water, 22 yes. 23 Q: Right. And we're certainly familiar, 24 since the Walkerton Inquiry that that's an important job. 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: I take it you have some training in 2 that. 3 A: Very little. Like you mean from a 4 school? 5 Q: Well, any kind of training. Somebody 6 had given you instructions in -- 7 A: Yeah, yeah -- 8 Q: -- terms of -- 9 A: -- I was given instructions, yeah. 10 Q: All right. That's -- and that's all 11 I'm getting at, Mr. George. You'd indicated to us that 12 your grandfather was Dan George Sr. 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And we are told that he had passed 15 away in 1990? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And that he was buried at the 18 traditional burial grounds at Stony Point? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: You were at that funeral as I 21 understand, Mr. George? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. Prior to his passing, did you 24 have any discussions with your grandfather about the 25 Stony Point lands?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: What did he tell you about that? 3 A: He told me that he'd -- that's where 4 he lived when he was a kid and he was removed -- removed 5 without a say. 6 Q: All right. Go ahead. 7 A: And that that was his land and he was 8 going to move back there some day. 9 Q: Did he ever indicate to you that that 10 land would be returned to him or -- or to the people from 11 that reserve at any point in time? 12 A: Did he know it was going to be 13 returned? 14 Q: Yeah. Did he ever mention to you 15 that it was to be returned or that he hoped it would be 16 returned? 17 A: Yes. He -- he hoped it would be 18 returned. 19 Q: And in terms of when you said that he 20 was -- he was removed from there, did he tell you about 21 the circumstances of how the land was taken and how he 22 was removed? 23 A: Some. 24 Q: What did he say about that? 25 A: The people who were living there were

1 more or less moved without their consent. 2 Q: And the people that were removed 3 without their consent, do you know whether they were 4 given an indication as to whether they would be entitled 5 to come back? 6 A: They were -- they were told they were 7 -- they would be able to come back when the war was over. 8 The army no longer needed it for -- to be used. 9 Q: Is this something that you 10 grandfather had related to you? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Did he ever express to you how he 13 felt about having been removed without his consent? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Can you tell us about that, Mr. 16 George. 17 A: He was upset and he didn't agree with 18 it. 19 Q: And as a result of his being upset 20 and not agreeing with it, I understand that he and others 21 had engaged in certain demonstrations and protest in 22 order to try to reclaim the land, is that right? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And -- and what can you tell us about 25 that insofar as your knowledge or your involvement in any

1 of those activities? 2 A: There was a demonstration on Highway 3 21 around 1990 where they were handing out information 4 pamphlets. 5 Q: Were -- were you part of that, Mr. 6 George? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Okay. And can you tell us who was 9 there to your recollection? 10 A: Me and Melva my grandma, I believe 11 Marlin Simon was with me too and others, but I don't 12 recall any other names. 13 Q: All right. You would have been 14 fairly young at that point, seventeen (17) or so, sixteen 15 (16)? 16 A: Around there, yes. 17 Q: Okay. Had you been involved in any 18 other activities to -- along the same lines? 19 A: Around '93, we wrote some letters to 20 various politicians. 21 Q: Okay. Let -- let's just stick with 22 this 1990 demonstration. And you'd indicated that there 23 were pamphlets that were being passed out? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And who were these being given to?

1 A: Any motorists that would stop, stop 2 by and talk. 3 Q: And do you recall what it was that 4 the pamphlets that were being passed out to any motorists 5 that would stop by, do you know what it -- do you recall 6 what it was that it said. 7 A: Not exactly. But I believe it was to 8 try and put pressure on the government to return the 9 land. 10 Q: You confirmed with me a moment ago, 11 Mr. George, that you'd attended at your grandfather's 12 funeral in 1990. 13 Do you recall whether this demonstration 14 you've just told us about now was before that funeral or 15 after? 16 A: I don't recall. 17 Q: All right. In terms of that funeral 18 is there anything that stands out in your mind? I mean 19 obviously it was your grandfather. 20 A: It was the first time and quite a few 21 years that somebody was buried -- buried in the cemetery 22 back then. 23 Q: Okay. And in attending at that 24 cemetery, that is the Stony Point Cemetery -- 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: -- did you make any observations about 2 -- about the condition that that cemetery was in? 3 A: It had -- appeared to be unkept. The 4 grass wasn't cut and the -- the headstones were damaged. 5 Q: When you say "damaged", what -- what 6 kind of damage did you observe? 7 A: Broken. 8 Q: Go ahead, anything else? 9 A: That's about all I can think of right 10 now. 11 Q: All right. During that period of 12 time in 1990 I understand that the cadet program was 13 still a regular part of the summer activities at the Army 14 camp. 15 A: During 1990? 16 Q: Yeah, in -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- 1990. And I understand as well, 19 Mr. George, that you were employed at the Army camp? 20 A: Yeah, for a little while. 21 Q: Well could you tell us about that? 22 A: I was a dishwasher for about three 23 (3) weeks when I was about fifteen (15). 24 Q: Okay. Go ahead. 25 A: I got fired after three (3) weeks, or

77
  1  let go.
  2                 Q:   And why were you fired or let go
  3  after three (3) weeks, Mr. George?
  4                 A:   For fraternizing with the cadets.
  5                 Q:   All right.  What does that mean or...
  6                 A:   When we first started working there
  7  and nothing was told to us.  But after a week or two (2)
  8  of working there we were told that we weren't to
  9  fraternize with the cadets.
 10                 Q:   And in terms of fraternize with
 11  cadets, what did -- what did that mean to you or what
 12  does that mean to you?
 13                 A:   Talk to them, I guess, anything
 14  associated with them.
 15                 Q:   Okay.  And so what had happened that
 16  caused you to be fired or to be let go?
 17                 A:   I was going out with one of the
 18  cadets and I lent my jean jacket to her and she hid it
 19  underneath her bed in her barracks there and they found
 20  it.  The army -- the army guys found it.
 21                 Q:   Go ahead, and what happens?
 22                 A:   And I was called to a building the
 23  next day and they asked me if it was my coat and I said
 24  yes.  And I was let go.
 25                 Q:   You had mentioned earlier, Mr.

1 George, that you were involved in other activities 2 insofar as trying to reclaim the Stony Point traditional 3 lands? 4 A: We wrote some letters to various 5 politicians around '93 or '4 or somewheres around there. 6 Q: Go ahead. 7 A: Just demanding the return of the Camp 8 Ipperwash to the Stony Point people. 9 Q: And when you say "various 10 politicians", who do you recall those being directed to? 11 A: Prime Minister, Minister of Indian 12 Affairs, various MPs. 13 Q: Okay. How about any provincial 14 politicians? Do you know whether or not any such letters 15 were directed to them? 16 A: Pardon? 17 Q: Do you recall whether or not any such 18 letters were directed to provincial politicians? 19 A: Could have been, but I don't recall 20 specifically. 21 Q: Okay. You don't recall today? 22 A: No. 23 Q: As a result of sending out these 24 various letters and the activities you've told us about 25 earlier, did it seem to you that anything was being done?

1 A: No. It didn't seem like it. 2 Q: Okay. And did those kinds of 3 activities continue, Mr. George? Were you -- did you 4 stay involved in -- in letter writing campaigns and other 5 kinds of protests or demonstrations at roadsides, passing 6 out pamphlets, that sort of thing? 7 A: Not that I recall. 8 Q: Now we understand from the various 9 testimony before this Commission of Inquiry that some 10 people began to move, or began to camp in the Army camp 11 around May -- in early May of 1993? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You were aware of that? Were you 14 part of the initial group, Mr. George, that moved into 15 the Army camp in May of 1993? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay, where were you living in May of 18 1993? 19 A: Kettle Point. 20 Q: There's an exhibit up on the screen 21 which has been marked as P-40 in these proceedings. Mr. 22 George, you also have a hard copy on the table in front 23 of you. 24 And I wonder if you would just with the 25 laser pointer that you have, simply confirm for us,

1 firstly, that is the Ipperwash Military Reserve or Stony 2 Point Traditional Reserve, is that right? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: I'm not sure how you -- how you refer 5 to it and perhaps I should ask you that. How is it 6 that -- 7 A: Aazhoodena? 8 Q: Okay. So that's Aazhoodena? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And in early 1993, people began to 11 camp there, began to move in. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Were you -- and were you part of the 14 initial group that went in and we understand that date to 15 be May the 6th of 1993? 16 A: No. It was shortly after. 17 Q: Okay. And do you recall when after - 18 - when shortly after? 19 A: A few days. Few days to a week. 20 Q: And so could you tell us what it is 21 that you did a few days to a week after that initial 22 group moved in and set up camp in the Aazhoodena? 23 A: We started setting up camp further -- 24 further down more towards the rifle range. 25 Q: Where did you -- where did you

1 initially enter and who did you come in with, Mr. George? 2 A: Glenn George and Marlin Simon, I 3 believe. 4 Q: Okay. And where was it that you 5 would have came in? If you could just use that laser 6 pointer in your hand and indicate on the map on the 7 screen. 8 A: There was a gate over in the corner 9 here they were using. Right around there somewhere. 10 Q: And you're indicating at the south -- 11 I believe that's the south -- southeast corner, is that 12 fair? 13 A: That's the northeast; isn't it? 14 Q: Well I'm going to suggest to you that 15 the north is the top of the map and that is the lake up 16 there. 17 A: Oh yeah, okay. 18 Q: Does that -- does that help you? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And the line in -- right next -- 21 right at the bottom -- towards the bottom of the map, 22 that would be Highway 21. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And the line that runs up on the 25 eastern border of -- what you've described as Aazhoodena,

1 that would be Outer Drive? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So you would've came in at a gate 4 that's located at the corner of Outer Drive and Highway 5 21? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that's where you had initially 8 set up your camp? Is that -- am I understanding that 9 properly? 10 A: No. We -- our camp was set up over 11 here and that's where we even drove in. But we set up a 12 tent -- kitchen tent over -- over here on -- beside the 13 rifle range. 14 Q: Now I understand that -- that the 15 camp had moved on a number of occasions. Is it your 16 recollection that that's where you first would have set 17 up your camp? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And that's adjacent to the -- what's 20 marked on the map as the rifle range? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And your -- your testimony is that 23 you entered with Glenn George and Marlin Simon to your 24 recollection? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Did you set up your camp with them as 2 well? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: You indicated that you had set up a 5 kitchen. Where was that kitchen located, Mr. George? 6 A: Roughly right around and beside the 7 rifle range there. To the edge of the trees. 8 Q: All right. I wonder if you would 9 just maybe take the -- the hard copy map that you have in 10 front of you and one of the pens there, and if you could 11 put a mark there. If you could make a number 1 and 12 circle it as to where you think the -- the kitchen was. 13 Perhaps, Mr. Commissioner, so that the -- 14 the witness can continue to refer to this, I would ask 15 that that be marked as an exhibit. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 17 THE REGISTRAR: P-111. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-111. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-111: Document 1002409, page 13, Map 21 of Ipperwash Military Reserve, Marked 22 by witness Mr. Warren George, December 23 08/04. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. DONALD WORME:

1 Q: And your camp would be located 2 somewhere in the vicinity then of the kitchen that you 3 had set up and marked as number 1 on P-111? 4 A: Yeah, very close to it, yeah. 5 Q: Okay. Can you maybe put a number 2 6 there if you would please, Mr. George, as to where that 7 was located? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Can you tell us why, Mr. George, 12 people moved onto the land and decided to set up camp as 13 you did, there? 14 A: Why we set up in that spot? 15 Q: Well, first of all, why you -- why 16 people moved onto the -- onto the Army base? 17 A: Because the government didn't appear 18 to be owning up to its promises. 19 Q: And the promise you referred to us 20 earlier that was that it would be returned. 21 A: Return of the land, yes. 22 Q: Okay. You've indicated earlier as 23 well, that some of the other activities that were engaged 24 in, the letter writing campaign, the protests and 25 demonstrations, didn't seem to be effective?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: All right. Were you part of the 3 decision makers that made -- made the decision to move 4 into the Army camp, Mr. George? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And how was it that that 7 decision was arrived at? 8 A: It was discussed over a fairly long 9 period of time over the previous year, I would say or so. 10 Q: While people were -- before people 11 moved onto the range? 12 A: Could you repeat the question again 13 please? 14 Q: So the discussion to move into the 15 Army camp onto the range was made over the previous year, 16 is that what I understand you to -- 17 A: No. 18 Q: -- say? 19 A: To where we were -- where we set up 20 camp? Is that what you're talking about? 21 Q: I'm just trying to get a sense, Mr. 22 George, of how the decision was made to move onto the -- 23 onto the Army base in the first place. 24 A: I don't know. I don't know. 25 Q: Okay. So just to be clear, you

1 weren't part of that decision -- 2 A: No. 3 Q: -- is that fair? 4 A: No. Yeah, that's right. 5 Q: Okay. How was it that you learned 6 about people moving onto the Army base? 7 A: My cousin and uncle. 8 Q: And their names are? 9 A: Marlin and Glen. 10 Q: Okay. In finding out that people 11 were going to move onto the Army base and in fact that 12 they did move onto the Army base, do you know whether 13 there was any -- anything else discussed or agreed upon 14 as to how that would occur? 15 A: No. 16 Q: Do you know whether there was any 17 decisions taken as to what would happen if there was 18 resistence met? For example, if the military was there? 19 A: No. 20 Q: During the time that -- that -- when 21 you initially moved in, do you know whether or not 22 anybody had brought any weapons with them? By weapons 23 I'm referring specifically to firearms. 24 A: No. 25 Q: Did you bring any weapons with you,

1 Mr. George? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Okay. The people that you were with, 4 Glen and Marlin, do you know whether or not they had 5 brought any firearms with them? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Was there any discussion among you, 8 Glen or Marlin as to whether or not you should have 9 firearms? 10 A: Somewhat, yes. 11 Q: And what was that? 12 A: If we did bring firearms in, it would 13 be an excuse for the military or the OPP to shoot us. 14 Q: Okay. So I gather from that response 15 that it's probably a good idea, you thought, not to bring 16 firearms? 17 A: Yes. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: Can you tell us what other -- what 22 other folks you would have seen that had moved onto the 23 base by the time you had moved in? 24 When you came in with Glen and -- and 25 Marlin, can you tell us who else you might have observed

1 there? 2 A: There was Clifford -- Clifford was 3 living there and there was another -- 4 Q: You mean Clifford George? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: And there was another group of tents 8 down by the stone quarry. 9 Q: I wonder if you might just indicate 10 on the map that is marked as P-40, Mr. George, where 11 you're referring to when you say the stone quarry? 12 A: I believe -- believe that's the stone 13 quarry right there. 14 Q: And again for the record, you're 15 indicating at the lower right hand corner of the picture, 16 of the diagram? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what group of people were camped 19 there, Mr. George? 20 A: There -- Clouds, their last names 21 were Clouds and there was some last names with Mannings 22 living or camping around there. 23 Q: Okay. Perhaps you just might mark a 24 number 3 on the exhibit in front of you P-111. 25 A: Where they were camping?

1 Q: Yes. You can designate that as 2 number 3, where the Clouds and the Mannings were 3 residing. You've done that? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: You mentioned that Clifford George 6 was there as well. Where was he residing in -- in your 7 recollection when you moved in the 6th, pardon me, in May 8 of 1995, 3, pardon me? 9 A: I don't recall where he was staying 10 at at that time. 11 Q: Anybody else that you recall, Mr. 12 George, that was -- that was there in 1993 when you came 13 in? 14 A: That was camping? 15 Q: That's right. 16 A: Dave -- Dave George had a trailer or 17 a tent type thing set up on the rifle range. 18 Q: Okay. Could you maybe mark that with 19 a number 4? And perhaps for the benefit of -- of all of 20 us, if you would simply point out on the map, the 21 diagram, where that might be? 22 A: Right around there. 23 Q: For the record the rifle range is 24 adjacent to Highway 21 at the lower end of the diagram 25 and you're pointing to what appears, at least to me, to

1 be the second box from the top in the area marked rifle 2 range? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. Is there anybody that you 5 can recall that was camped there when you came in in May 6 of '93, Mr. George? 7 A: No. I don't recall. 8 Q: Do you recall whether Joe George was 9 there or Dudley George? 10 A: They were in the area, yes. 11 Q: And do you know where they were 12 camped? 13 A: On the 6th? 14 Q: Or whenever it was when you came in, 15 do you know where -- where Joe George for example was -- 16 was staying? 17 A: No. No, I don't. 18 Q: And what about the late Dudley 19 George? Do you know where he was residing at that time 20 in 1993 when you first came in? 21 A: He -- he didn't have a place there 22 when I first came in. 23 Q: I see. During the --during that 24 initial period when you came into the army camp, was 25 there any interaction between you or others of the

1 occupiers with the military? 2 A: The military was doing, they called 3 it routine patrols. 4 Q: Okay. I wonder if you could just 5 describe that? What -- what do you mean when you say 6 routine patrols done by the military? 7 A: They had a loud -- loud diesel pickup 8 truck and they would drive by our campsites and always 9 watching us. 10 Q: Perhaps you might just use that laser 11 pointer and indicate on P-40 on the screen as to where 12 they would be doing these what you've called routine 13 patrols. 14 A: Well, when we were living on the 15 range there, they would -- they would drive up this road 16 here and then they would drive to the back of the rifle 17 ranges and -- and come back out and drive along here and 18 more or less the perimeter of the reserve of Aazhoodena. 19 Q: You've indicated again just for the 20 record, from the what's -- what's been identified as the 21 built-up area which is located on the diagram on the 22 bottom right -- left-hand corner, there's a road inside 23 the camp -- 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: -- adjacent to Highway 21?