1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 December 7th, 2004 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )    (np)
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )    (np)
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  
  7  Murray Klippenstein ) (np)       The Estate of Dudley 
  8  Vilko Zbogar       ) (np)       George and George
  9  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 10  Basil Alexander    )
 11  Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )   (np)       Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena
 18                                   (Army Camp)
 19  
 20  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stoney
 21  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 22  Kim Twohig       )              Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Sue Freeborn     )   (np)
 25  Michelle Pong    )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (Np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 11  
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  
 15  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 16  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 17  
 18  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 19  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 20  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 21  
 22  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 23  Karen Jones      )              Police Association &
 24  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 25  Ian McGilp       )   (np)

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  
  7  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
  8  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
  9  
 10  William Horton   )              Chiefs of Ontario
 11  Matthew Horner   )   (np)
 12  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 13  
 14  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 15  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 16  
 17  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 18  Anna Perschy     )
 19  Melissa Panjer   )   (np)
 20  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 21  
 22  
 23  
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 CECIL BERNARD GEORGE, Resumed 7 Continued Examination-in-Chief 8 by Mr. Derry Millar 7 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 102 10 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 106 11 12 Certificate of Transcript 173 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-109 Stan Thompson drawing, September 14 4 20, 1995, marked by witness, Cecil 5 George, December 7, 2004 6 P-110 Document 1005720, pages 223 - 245, 84 7 11 photographs of Mr. Cecil George 8 taken by SIU, September 07/95 9 14-2a, 14-4a, 14-5a, 14-7a, 14-8a, 10 14-12a, 14-13a, 14-14a, 14-17a, 11 14-19a, 14-22a, and CD ROM of 12 photographs, CD marked "Longboat/Alliance" 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon convening at 10:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 7 CECIL BERNARD GEORGE, Resumed 8 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. George...? 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 14 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. 15 A: Good morning, sir. 16 Q: Yesterday when we finished we were at 17 the point when you had arrived at the police checkpoint 18 on East Parkway Drive and had been not allowed to proceed 19 down East Parkway Drive towards the Park. 20 And you told us that your wife backed up 21 your truck and you and your brother, Jeremiah got out of 22 the truck and went from East Parkway Drive over to the 23 beach. Do you recall that? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And when you got to the beach did you

1 observe any police cars or police officers on the beach? 2 A: No one was there. 3 Q: And the point where you arrive on the 4 beach, I take it, it was close to the intersection of 5 East Parkway Drive and the road that runs from Raven's 6 Wood north to the beach? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And after you got to the beach, what 9 did you then do, Mr. George? 10 A: We continued on east along the beach 11 to -- towards the Park. 12 Q: And as you were walking along the 13 beach did you observe any people or any police officers 14 on the beach? 15 A: No one was there. 16 Q: Did you observe any lights on in the 17 cottages as you walked along the beach? 18 A: There might have been the odd light 19 on, yes. 20 Q: And how long -- do you recall how 21 long, approximately, it took you to get from where you 22 first went on to the beach down to the Park? 23 A: Five minutes or so. 24 Q: And when you reached the area of the 25 Park, did -- what did you do?

1 A: Well, I -- I seen a few people 2 walking around the fire that was kind of down close to 3 the water's edge, like the bottom of the hill. 4 Q: And -- 5 A: They were -- they were -- I can't 6 recall if it was right on the beach or up higher. I know 7 there was a smaller fire burning there. 8 Q: So that -- 9 A: No one was in the -- in the sandy 10 area -- the -- the parking lot area. 11 Q: So when you approached the -- the 12 area north of the sandy parking lot where the sandy 13 parking lot goes down to the beach, the -- back in 1995 14 was there barriers at the edge of the -- the -- that part 15 of the beach in front of the cottages and another barrier 16 on that part of the beach in front of the Provincial 17 Park? 18 A: Yes, there was a barrier separating 19 the Park from the rest of the beach. 20 Q: And then was there a barrier 21 preventing automobiles and separating, as well, the beach 22 in front of the cottages from the driveway -- the 23 extension of the driveway -- the sandy park lot -- down 24 to the beach? Do you recall that? 25 A: Yes, I believe there was.

1 Q: So that the fire that you saw was 2 either on the top of the bank or down on the beach? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And if it was on top of the bank, I 5 take it, it would be on -- on the Park side level -- more 6 or less level with the rest of the Park along the fence 7 line? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And do you recall today which 10 location it was or simply it was one or the other? 11 A: I believe it was kind of on top of 12 the hill. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: Not right on top of the hill, but 15 kind of partially down below the hill a little. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: I'm not exactly sure, but I know 18 there was a smaller fire there. 19 Q: Okay, and when you observed that, did 20 you see that fire as you and your brother, Jeremiah -- it 21 was Jeremiah that was walking with you -- 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: -- as you approached the -- 24 approached Provincial Park? 25 A: Yes, sir.

1 Q: And did you -- you said there some 2 people around the fire. Can you -- 3 A: One (1) of them was my other brother, 4 Stacey, known as Burger -- nicknamed Burger. He was at - 5 - near the bottom of the hill. They were walking around 6 inside the Park. 7 Q: On -- on the beach side of the Park? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: The Park side of the beach? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Yes? And do you recall who else was 12 there? 13 A: There may have been a couple of other 14 people there. I didn't really see who they were because 15 it was kind of dark in that area. 16 Q: Okay. And were these -- 17 A: I think they were gathering firewood 18 something. 19 Q: And were these individuals on the 20 Park side or on the -- outside the Park? 21 A: They were on the inside of the Park. 22 Q: On the inside of the Park? And what 23 did you do when you saw these individuals? Did you go 24 speak to them? What did you do next? 25 A: Shortly I -- I just let them know to

1 be careful, that there was a lot of police down the road 2 at the -- at that Ministry of -- the next parking lot 3 that was west of the Park. 4 Q: Yes? 5 A: I told them that there was a lot of 6 police and be careful. 7 Q: And did you -- how long did you 8 remain with the people at this fire? 9 A: Just a very short time, just to let 10 them know to be careful. 11 Q: Then what did you do? 12 A: Then I walked up along over the hill 13 and I crossed over the fence into the Park. 14 Q: And at what point did you -- do you 15 recall that you crossed over the fence into the Park? 16 A: Just as the hill starts as you go 17 down towards the beach area, I walked halfway up the hill 18 and then I walked -- I just jumped over the fence. 19 Q: And did you observe anyone at the 20 point where you jumped over the fence? 21 A: There were not a lot -- large amount 22 of people in that area. I couldn't really tell who was 23 who because it was dark in that area and there was 24 another fire burning up on top of the hill. 25 Q: And the fire that was on top of the

1 hill, Mr. George, was it up near the bank or down towards 2 the gate and the Park store? 3 A: No it was near an entrance to that by 4 the parking lot there were referred to as by that 5 turnstile. 6 Q: Okay. And -- 7 A: Back in behind there a little bit. 8 Q: Pardon me? 9 A: It was probably about maybe thirty 10 (30) feet away from the fence line separating the parking 11 lot and the Park. 12 Q: And the -- and it was by the -- near 13 the turnstile? Or thirty (30) feet away from -- 14 A: Yes. Yes it was inside the Park. 15 Q: But how close would it be -- would it 16 have been to the turnstile? 17 A: Probably about maybe thirty (30), 18 forty (40) feet somewhere around that. 19 Q: And so it was thirty (30) or forty 20 (40) feet east of the turnstile? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And so that behind you there's a copy 23 of Exhibit P-23 which is the Stan Thompson drawing. And 24 I'm going to ask, Commissioner, Mr. George to make some 25 marks on this drawing. And so rather than -- what I

1 would like to do is mark it as the next exhibit now which 2 I think would be P-109. 3 THE REGISTRAR: P-109, Your Honour. 4 5 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-109: Stan Thompson drawing, 6 September 20, 1995, marked by 7 witness, Cecil George, 8 December 7, 2004. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: On the -- behind you is a drawing to 12 scale of the intersection of East Parkway Drive and Army 13 Camp Road immediately behind you, Mr. George. 14 And is the area of the fire that you 15 observed on the evening of September 6th by the turnstile 16 -- I take it it would've been, if you take a look at this 17 map P-109, it would have been off the map? 18 A: It was somewhere right around -- 19 Q: Perhaps you could mark number 1 with 20 a circle where -- with that black marker where you think 21 the fire was? Thank you. 22 A: Somewhere in that area. 23 Q: Thank you. In that -- more or less 24 in that area? 25 A: Somewhere in that area.

1 Q: Okay. Thank you. And can you 2 describe the fire for us? Was it a small fire, a medium 3 fire, a large fire? 4 A: It was -- I'd call it a medium fire. 5 It wasn't really large. It was big enough to light up 6 the area that was around in there. 7 Q: And did you observe whether or not it 8 cast any light out onto the sandy parking lot? 9 A: Yes, it did but not a lot. 10 Q: Not a lot? And did you encounter any 11 people at the -- when you got to the fire at location 12 number one? 13 A: There were, like I mentioned earlier, 14 there was a number of people in there and there was women 15 and the younger men. And I looked around for -- to see 16 if there was any smaller children in the area and I 17 really didn't see any. And there was some -- some of 18 them I -- I couldn't recognize because it was kind of 19 dark and they were standing back away from the fire. 20 Q: And at the point in time when you 21 returned to the Park the second time, can you tell me 22 what time it was? It was clearly after dark? 23 A: Yes, it was -- it was dark by then. 24 I couldn't really see a lot of what kind of vehicles were 25 in that, there were some cars in there and I really can't

1 say if I had seen that bus in there or any trucks or 2 anything. I was more concerned about the people that 3 were there. 4 Q: Okay. But I'm just trying to, and I 5 know it's nine (9) years ago and only lawyers ask these 6 kinds of questions, but if you have any idea as to what 7 time it was when you arrived back the second time? 8 A: Well, I'm sorry, it was ten o'clock, 9 between 10:00 and 11:00, somewhere in that area. 10 Q: And the fact that you didn't see 11 small children, would that be unusual having regard to 12 the fact that there was school the next day? 13 A: Could have been, yes. 14 Q: And they may have been home getting 15 ready to go to -- get -- 16 A: At that time of night, yes. 17 Q: At ten (10) to eleven (11)? And did 18 you -- was your sister Gina Johnson there, did you see 19 her? 20 A: She was in that area. I'm trying 21 hard to think of -- I know she was there but I didn't 22 really see her at that -- these few moments that I was 23 inside that Park I may have talked to her but I -- my 24 thinking kind of -- is kind of jammed. 25 Q: And at the time when you went into

1 the Park, you took with you the -- the two (2) walkie 2 talkies? 3 A: Yes, I did. 4 Q: And the scanner? 5 A: I believe I did, yes. 6 Q: And who did you give the walkie- 7 talkies and the scanner to? 8 A: I can't recall who I -- the exact 9 person I gave it to, I just handed it out and told them 10 they might need some communications up front at the 11 buildings at where they were staying. 12 Q: And what was your intention with 13 respect to the walkie-talkies when you say, up front at 14 the buildings you were -- they were staying? Are you 15 referring to one (1) of the radios being in the built-up 16 area and one (1) radio in the Park? 17 A: Well, then I thought that maybe I -- 18 I would probably need one because I told them I was going 19 to go outside our Park and -- and walk down the road and 20 see what was going on down there. 21 So I just handed one (1) of them over and 22 I can't recall who I gave it to. I know I handed one (1) 23 to another individual there, and I kept the other radio. 24 Q: And do you recall who you gave the 25 scanner to?

1 A: No, I -- I believe that I -- I kept 2 it for -- in my -- on my own person. 3 Q: And I think you told us yesterday 4 that the radio could pick up other communications if the 5 communications were close enough to the radios? 6 A: Yes, you -- you could. I picked up 7 different frequencies off these radios before that. 8 Q: And did you -- do you recall speaking 9 to Roderick George at the time you entered the Park with 10 the radios? 11 A: I may have spoken to him, it may have 12 been -- there was a -- a few different guys standing 13 around in there that I was talking to and, like, I'm 14 thinking hard about who -- who exactly was there, but I 15 know I seen a couple guys that I never recognized before 16 or I didn't know. 17 Q: Did you -- did you recall giving one 18 (1) of the radios to Isaac "Buck" Doxtator? 19 A: I may have, yes. 20 Q: And do you recall anything else of 21 the discussion or the conversation between yourself and 22 the people in the Park? 23 A: I informed them that there was a 24 large amount of police buildup to the west of the Park 25 area there and that I wasn't really sure, I says it -- I

1 just had a funny feeling that something might take place, 2 and be careful and -- and I just told them that I was 3 going to go back outside the Park here and down the road. 4 Q: And did -- do you recall any of the 5 occupiers saying anything to you? 6 A: Watch yourself. 7 Q: And what was the mood of the people 8 that you spoke to in the Park at this time? 9 A: The mood was -- I guess there was a 10 number of different moods I -- that I sensed. I mean 11 that I could feel that they had was one (1) of them was 12 probably fear because of not understanding and not 13 knowing what was down that road. 14 Another one was curiosity. Everyone was 15 curious, I mean who wouldn't be in -- at that time in 16 that surrounding. It was -- for some reason the lighting 17 was not in that area like it usually was. That corner 18 was usually lit up. 19 There was -- I -- I really never sensed 20 any anger within anybody -- frustration. and that's only 21 a few that I -- that I could see that was inside some of 22 these people that were there. 23 Q: Pardon me? 24 A: That was only a few that I could 25 sense; that I could feel from these that were there.

1 Q: And you said that that corner was 2 usually lit up. It's our understanding, Mr. George, that 3 the streetlight that exists today, and I anticipate the 4 evidence will be that that light went into -- at that 5 corner in 1996 after these events. 6 So when you're referring to the 7 intersection normally being lit up, what are you 8 referring to, Mr. George? 9 A: It may have been because of the -- 10 the Park -- the lighting in the Park, because they had 11 lighting in the Park. I mean I -- I went -- I walked 12 through that area when I used to hunt down there before 13 that took place and there was already a lot of lighting 14 around in there and it just seemed like it was darker 15 than normal for some reason. I -- I don't know why. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: It was just a feeling that I felt to 18 me. 19 Q: There were lights in -- in -- 20 normally when the Park was open there were lights in the 21 Park store? Do you recall that, having been there 22 before? 23 A: Some lighting, yes. 24 Q: And there were light standards around 25 the Park store. Do you recall that prior to September

1 4th? 2 A: Yes, there was some lighting around-- 3 Q: And -- 4 A: -- around that building. 5 Q: -- on the night of September 6th, do 6 you recall what lighting was around the Park store or did 7 you get that -- get close to the Park store? 8 A: No, I didn't even bother noticing 9 that building in there. I just had concern that it was - 10 - what was down the road. 11 Q: And, so, you left -- how -- how long 12 did you remain in the Park near the fire? 13 A: Just a few moments. 14 Q: And you then decided to go outside 15 the Park and go down East Parkway Drive? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: And why did you decide to go down 18 East Parkway Drive? 19 A: I was curious, I was -- I wanted to 20 know why the police buildup was -- that was the biggest 21 area where I -- I'd seen most of the police vehicles and 22 police. 23 And I mentioned earlier when I left, the 24 last time I -- we went through that checkpoint and I 25 noticed that the police were carrying rifles and I

22
  1  thought that was highly unusual to have police carrying
  2  that type of firearms.  The last time I seen them and --
  3  was down in Kettle Point when I got involved in the --
  4                 Q:   In the incident with Mr. Darryl
  5  George?
  6                 A:   Yes.
  7                 Q:   Now --
  8                 A:   Same -- similar type of a firearm --
  9  a rifle.
 10                 Q:   Did you ask the police officers --
 11  and I don't think I asked this yesterday -- when you were
 12  turned back at the checkpoint on the second time that you
 13  went to the Park -- why they wouldn't let you through?
 14                 A:   No, they -- that was -- I was
 15  wondering why they wouldn't let us through again.
 16                 Q:   But did you ask them why?  Did you --
 17  did you indicate to them that you were a councillor?
 18                 A:   No, I did not.  I may have at the
 19  first time coming through but I didn't this time, no.
 20                 Q:   And they were -- they were different
 21  officers the second time?
 22                 A:   It was fairly -- it was dark that
 23  time.  I -- I -- 
 24                 Q:   Couldn't really see?
 25                 A:   No.  I -- I seen some in the

1 headlights of a vehicle and they were still in the 2 greyish uniforms. 3 Q: And so you -- take us back now to the 4 Park. You're in the Park and decide to go down East 5 Parkway Drive, you leave the Park and proceed down East 6 Parkway Drive? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And what if anything did you have 9 with you as you proceeded down East Parkway Drive? 10 A: I had a stick in my hand and I had 11 one (1) of the radios 12 Q: And can you tell us what -- describe 13 the stick please. 14 A: It was probably about three (3) or 15 four (4) feet in length, maybe a little bit longer and it 16 wasn't too big a stick. I mean it was probably maybe an 17 inch or two in diameter and four (4) feet long. 18 Q: And why -- 19 A: Maybe a little longer, five (5) feet. 20 Q: Pardon me? 21 A: About four (4) or five (5) feet long 22 somewhere. 23 Q: And why did you have a stick? 24 A: To be honest, I was -- had fear 25 inside of me also for what unknown was down that road and

1 what might happen if I walked down the road and they 2 might have -- the police might have thought that I was 3 one (1) of the occupiers and jump me and I more or less 4 had it for -- like a self -- self -- for my protection. 5 I always -- I always carried a stick when 6 I walk around, to a point -- it was one of the things 7 that you see a lot of people who are carrying a stick 8 along the road. I carried it because I had fear inside 9 of me that I might be jumped by a police officer because 10 they thought I might have been one (1) of the occupiers 11 there at that Park. 12 Q: And the -- you said that you normally 13 carried a stick when you're walking. And why was that? 14 A: Out of habit I guess. 15 Q: And when you were in the Park at this 16 point just before you started down East Parkway Drive, 17 did you observe any guns in the Park? 18 A: No, I did not. 19 Q: And did you observe anyone drinking 20 alcohol? 21 A: No, I did not. 22 Q: And did you observe anyone who 23 appeared to be intoxicated? 24 A: No, I did not. 25 Q: And prior to arriving at the Park the

1 second time, had you had anything -- consumed any 2 alcohol? 3 A: No, I did not. 4 Q: And had you consumed any alcohol the 5 first time that you drove down to the Park? 6 A: I -- it was probably about eight (8) 7 months before I even had any alcohol. I don't consume it 8 very often. 9 Q: So it had been -- 10 A: Maybe twice a year I give in to it. 11 Q: And -- so it had been around eight 12 (8) months -- 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: -- since you had any alcohol? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And when you went over the fence, was 17 -- do you recall if there were people inside the sandy 18 parking lot to the west of the fence? 19 A: No, there wasn't anyone in that 20 parking area. 21 Q: And so did anyone else go with you 22 down East Parkway Drive? 23 A: Yes, there was a couple of other -- 24 there was two (2) other younger fellows that came outside 25 of the Park when I did.

1 Q: Do you recall who they were? 2 A: No. I can't -- there was two (2) of 3 them. They were younger than myself and they kind of 4 walked along the top of the hill, along the road looking 5 at -- into the cottages. I'm not really sure who they 6 were. They were the two (2) younger fellows. 7 Q: Was one (1) David George? 8 A: It may have been, yes. 9 Q: Was one (1) Kevin Thomas? 10 A: Thomas? 11 Q: Or, your friend -- 12 A: That I -- 13 Q: Yeah. 14 A: It may have been, yes. I know there 15 was two (2) younger fellows besides myself that were 16 outside in that area. 17 Q: So, how far down the road did you go, 18 Mr. George? 19 A: I went almost halfway to the area 20 where the police were situated. 21 Q: And -- 22 A: Maybe a third of the way. Between a 23 third and -- and half way, it was over a quarter way 24 there. 25 Q: And there's -- there's a curve in the

1 road that unfortunately we don't have a diagram of, but 2 did you get down to the curve in the road? 3 A: Yes, I went past a curve in the road. 4 Q: And the -- on your way down, what did 5 you observe, if anything? 6 A: Well, I couldn't really -- I -- in -- 7 in the distance I could see the headlights of vehicles 8 moving around, you can hear the -- 9 Q: That was after you went around the 10 curve? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: And I observed -- that's what I could 14 observe but I could also hear... 15 Q: What did you hear? 16 A: I could hear, to the left of me, hear 17 -- there was a -- a smaller building right around the 18 corner that -- where the curve is, it curves around and 19 heads west towards that -- away from the Park. 20 I could hear sticks cracking in that area 21 and it sounded like faint voices like, I always -- what I 22 could -- you could hear so that it -- someone was in 23 there, and -- 24 Q: That was on the south side of East 25 Parkway Drive?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And was that in the area close to 3 Army Camp Road? On -- behind you on Exhibit P-109 you 4 will see some buildings that were in a lot that was at 5 the southwest corner. Is that what you're talking about 6 or farther down the road? 7 A: That's the area I -- I referred to. 8 Q: The area that's on the -- and the -- 9 so that as you were moving down the road you heard noise 10 from on the south side of the road, near the buildings 11 that are shown on Exhibit P-109? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And can you tell us any more about it 14 than what you've done? What could you -- 15 A: Well, I could hear, like I mentioned, 16 there was sticks cracking and it sounded like faint 17 voices from that area. So I just stopped there for a 18 little while and listened. 19 And while I was on the roadway there, I 20 never really left the roadway. I -- I was pretty much on 21 the roadway all the time. So I radioed back to whoever 22 the person was, and I -- I don't recognize the voice who 23 I was talking to on the -- on the radio, the walkie- 24 talkie. And I told him that I could hear things and -- 25 but I -- I can't really see anything yet.

1 Q: And at the -- even though it doesn't 2 show on Exhibit P-109, there's a substantial amounts of 3 trees in that lot to the west of those buildings; is that 4 not correct, north and west of those buildings? 5 A: Yes, there was an opening behind the 6 -- the buildings there, there you get into a bush -- bush 7 area. 8 Q: So you heard the noise in this area 9 by the buildings on the southwest corner of East Parkway 10 and Army Camp Road. Did you hear any other noises? 11 A: Yes, I heard some more, it sounded 12 like sticks cracking up in the cottage area and I stopped 13 and listened to make out and I turned to look behind me 14 and the two (2) fellows that were behind me had gone back 15 towards the Park. 16 Q: Okay. And the -- can you recall 17 where you were when you heard the noise on the north side 18 of East Parkway? I take it it was on the north side of 19 the cottage? 20 A: Yes, it was up in the cottage area I 21 heard, it sounded like some moving up in there, it was -- 22 Q: Was it farther down or was it in the 23 same spot? What we've -- what you can see on Exhibit P- 24 109, is the entrances to the first two (2) cottage areas, 25 the driveway, Mr. George, that - that runs from the sandy

1 parking lot, leads up to the big white cottage on the top 2 of the hill. Do you know that area? 3 A: Yes, it was up in this area here. 4 Q: So, it was up past the second parking 5 lot, which I think is -- the number on it is sixty-eight 6 forty-two (6842). Is that correct, Mr. George? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: So that it was west of the entrance 9 that's marked sixty-eight forty-two (6842)? So, what did 10 -- you heard this noise. Did you hear any speaking? Did 11 you hear anything else or just a cracking noise? 12 A: Well, I heard some crackling noise 13 like a stick breaking or -- and like I mentioned, I -- it 14 was -- sounded like faint voice -- voices, so I just 15 continued on around down the road further towards where 16 the police buildup was. 17 Q: And so, when -- tell us what you -- 18 you proceeded down the road. Did you hear any more 19 noises as you went down the road? 20 A: No, I was getting pretty tensed up at 21 that -- by that time. 22 Q: And so, you went down the road, you 23 went around the corner? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what did you observe when you

1 went around the corner? 2 A: I observed the same movement -- 3 vehicles -- you could see headlights turning around and 4 then it kind of went dark after that. There was not so 5 much movement of vehicles in the area of the -- where the 6 police buildup was. 7 Q: And the police buildup was at -- 8 could you see where they were? Were they at the -- the 9 Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then what happened? 12 A: I went, probably like I mentioned, 13 about a third of the way between the Park and the parking 14 lot area where the police were and I stopped. 15 Q: Yes? 16 A: And I talked to the person -- whoever 17 was talking on the radio and I told him, I says, I've got 18 a funny feeling, this -- this don't look good. And then 19 I looked again and I could hear movement. I couldn't 20 really see a lot, but I could hear movement -- footsteps 21 on the road. 22 You could hear them because it was fairly 23 calm that night. It wasn't windy, it was fairly calm and 24 I could hear footsteps coming down the road and there was 25 -- sounded like a lot of footsteps.

1 Q: And how long did you -- you heard the 2 footsteps, what did you then do? 3 A: I just stood there and I got on the 4 radio and I told them, I think they might be coming this 5 way and I stood there for a while and I -- I thought I'd 6 seen little, like little penlight coming down the road -- 7 a bunch of little penlights, like the smaller -- this 8 type here. 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: And I wasn't exactly sure and -- 11 until they got closer and then it ended up that the 12 penlights that I saw was a reflection off of objects. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: They were completely almost across 15 the road. 16 Q: And can you describe the -- what you 17 saw when you first saw the objects across the road, what 18 they were and can you -- what were they? 19 A: I come to realize that they weren't 20 flash -- little penlights anymore, that they were a 21 reflection off of an object, but I -- I couldn't really 22 tell because it was dark -- completely dark. I didn't 23 have a flashlight myself and I stood there until they got 24 closer to me -- 25 Q: Yes?

1 A: -- so I could see what exactly was 2 coming down the road. I knew they were police officers 3 and so I wanted to see what -- why they were coming down 4 the road in the dark like that without, you know, having 5 any lighting or -- they just -- they came down the road 6 in the dark. 7 Q: And -- so you waited, and how long 8 did you wait? 9 A: It wasn't very long, maybe three (3) 10 or four (4) minutes -- five (5) minutes or -- it's kind 11 of hard to tell the time when you're nervous and you're - 12 - it wasn't very long. 13 Q: And did you -- were you able to 14 eventually make out the -- what you believe were the 15 police officers coming down the road? Could you -- 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And can you describe for us when you 18 saw them, how they were dressed and what the police 19 officers were doing? 20 A: I got close enough at night because 21 the reflection in the moon that was shining on. And I -- 22 I knew -- knew they were carrying shields. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: I could see them, they had -- they 25 were in a formation and covering the whole roadway coming

1 in the direction that I was. 2 Q: And when you say they were covering 3 the whole roadway, can you -- what do you mean by that? 4 The police officers were -- 5 A: They were completely from one (1) 6 side of the road to the other side. 7 Q: On the paved part of the road? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. Yes? 10 A: And they were coming in my direction 11 at a kind of a slow pace at first. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: Then they stopped. For some reason 14 they stopped and I didn't hear no movement. It was kind 15 of quiet and they came to a complete stop for just a 16 little while and I could hear voices. And I was trying 17 to make out what the voices were -- they were saying but 18 I -- I couldn't. It was like that for a short time, 19 maybe a couple of minutes. 20 And then they started moving towards me 21 again. So I -- I just stood there and I talked to 22 someone that was on the other radio and told them that 23 the police were coming, to get ready and do what -- 24 whatever they're going to do then. It don't look good. 25 Q: And when you first saw the police

1 officers you said that they had the shields, did you see 2 any -- can you tell us whether you saw anything else 3 about their uniforms? 4 A: Then I realized that they were riot 5 police. 6 Q: And when you say they were -- you 7 realized they were riot police, what do you mean by that 8 and -- 9 A: They were dressed in -- in out of the 10 normal wear. That's the first time I ever -- I only seen 11 it on TV. I have never seen that sort of incident in 12 person before. I've only seen it on TV. 13 Q: And what did you see? 14 A: I seen them dressed in their uniforms 15 and they were carrying shields. The moonlight lit them 16 up really well. 17 Q: Yes? 18 A: When you -- like any -- any person, 19 when you're in the dark looking you can see a little bit 20 better than when you walked in from a lit up room or 21 lighting into a darker area your -- your eyes get 22 focussed at night. So I -- then I realized that they 23 were riot police and I started to backup. 24 Q: Did they have helmets on? Could -- 25 could you see that?

1 A: At that point I couldn't really tell. 2 All I seen was the shields -- the moon -- the moon was 3 reflecting of the shields. 4 Q: So that -- but you thought they were 5 riot police and you started backing down the road? 6 A: Yes, I did. 7 Q: And what did you do? 8 A: I backed down the road probably maybe 9 fifty (50) to a hundred (100) feet and I stopped and they 10 kept advancing. 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: And my first thought was try to talk 13 to them. That's the first thing I could think of was 14 tell them something. Ask them -- ask them to put their 15 weapons away and -- and I did that. That was one of the 16 first things I -- I told them and they weren't -- they 17 weren't that far away from me that they would have heard 18 me. 19 Q: And when you said this to the police 20 officers, can you tell us where you were on East Parkway 21 Drive? We're in an area -- 22 A: I was up past that lane where we 23 marked G on the map. 24 Q: The lane way that 68-42, you were 25 west of that -- in that area?

1 A: Yes, sir. 2 Q: Could you mark a two (2) on the map 3 where you were approximately when you started to speak to 4 the police officers? And so, can you tell us what you 5 can remember saying to the police officers when you were 6 at Point Number 2 on Exhibit P-109? 7 A: The first thing I -- I told them and 8 I said it loud enough so that they would hear me, and I 9 know they heard me because it was quiet down there. 10 And, the only -- the only things that you 11 could hear was themselves walking down the road and they 12 were probably touching each other's shield, a little 13 clanking, clunking noises and whatever they were 14 carrying, with their -- whatever they had on their person 15 you could hear, you know, the clunking noise. I could 16 hear them and I could hear their footsteps. 17 So, I'm -- I -- and it wasn't -- it wasn't 18 really windy down there and it was sort of calm that 19 night and I said it loud enough for them to hear me and I 20 knew they heard me. 21 Q: Well, when you say you knew they 22 heard you, how can you say that? Did anyone respond to 23 you, Mr. George? 24 A: No one responded to me. 25 Q: Did anyone say anything to you,

1 anything to you at all, at this point? 2 A: No, sir, nothing. 3 Q: So, what precisely did you say to the 4 police as best as you can remember now? 5 A: The first thing I told them to -- 6 was, put their guns away. 7 Q: Yes? 8 A: Then they -- when I started to speak, 9 it seemed like the pace -- the pace that they were -- a 10 slow pace turned into a -- a more of a -- a faster pace. 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: When I start speaking that's when 13 they advanced to me at a more rapid pace. And I start 14 backing up and I -- and I told them again, I spoke again 15 and I told them not to do this to these people behind me, 16 to leave them alone. 17 And I -- they just kept advancing so I -- 18 I backed up and I stopped again. Then I told them, that 19 if we wanted to fight to deal with me, leave these people 20 alone. And they -- they were -- their rate of advance 21 was even quicker, by then I was already back past that -- 22 that driveway. I know I went past the driveway and their 23 advance, their pace that they were on was -- it was 24 picking up faster. 25 Q: The time that you -- the second time

1 that you spoke to the police officers, the -- and said 2 that, about the fight, were you on the sandy parking lot 3 or still on the pavement? 4 A: No, I was still past that driveway. 5 Q: You were still in the area -- the 6 area of Number 2 or just a little closer to the Park? 7 A: Yes, I -- I think I -- I know I told 8 them to, if you wanted to be like real men, deal with me. 9 Q: You're sure that was at this time 10 when you were out on the parking -- on the pavement? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And after that you then -- 13 what did you then do, Mr. George? 14 A: Well, I -- by then I was realized 15 that they were picking up pace so I -- I backed up. The 16 closer I got to the corner, the faster I backed up. 17 And I -- and I told them, don't do this, 18 as I was backing up, but, by then they were walking 19 faster and I don't know if they would have heard me when 20 I told them and I kept telling them, don't do this, even 21 though I was backing up. 22 Q: And the police officers kept coming 23 towards you. Can you tell us at this point could you see 24 more of the police officers? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And can you tell us, how many police 2 officers do you remember were there? 3 A: There was a large amount, when I got 4 -- the closer I backed up and then when I told the person 5 that was on the other walkie-talkie, I told him that 6 they're coming. 7 By -- by then I can't exactly recall what 8 I told him on the radio, I just him that they were 9 coming, to get ready, and maybe get the women out of 10 there and get ready, they're coming, it didn't look good. 11 Q: And -- but how many police officers, 12 can you recall? 13 A: They were all across the roadway, I - 14 - I couldn't -- I couldn't count them. 15 Q: And so after you're getting closer to 16 the sandy parking lot, you're still speaking to the 17 police officers, they're marching at -- moving towards 18 you at a faster pace; what did you then do? 19 A: I turned around to see if anybody was 20 in the area of the parking lot and I -- I seen a few 21 turning and starting to go into the Park and I was -- I 22 was almost at the corner and I -- I heard vehicles start 23 up behind me in the parking lot and I seen cars starting 24 to move -- looked like they were leaving the area, and it 25 was, you know, it was -- there was a lot of movement,

1 people starting to move around, and a light -- lights 2 came on. Vehicle lights started to shine down the road 3 in the direction that I was, inside the Park -- 4 Q: From the -- inside the Park -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- out onto the sandy parking lot 7 and -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- down East Parkway? Yes? 10 A: Yes, and I believe it might -- may 11 have been a spotlight came on -- a bigger -- a bigger 12 spotlight came on and it shone in the direction that I 13 was and I turned to look and then I realized that they 14 were riot police and I -- you could see their shin pads 15 on and their -- their sticks that they were carrying -- 16 their billy sticks and their shields and they had helmets 17 on with face shields on and I knew that there was -- it 18 was not good. 19 Q: And at any time when you were on the 20 road do you recall hiding in the ditch? 21 A: I was kneeling on the side of the 22 road, I wasn't really hiding in no ditch and I had no 23 reason to hide. 24 Q: And when you were kneeling on the 25 side of the road, why were you kneeling on the side of

1 the road? 2 A: I was touching the ground with my 3 hand. 4 Q: To -- but -- but why? 5 A: I don't know why. 6 Q: Oh. And so -- 7 A: I don't -- I don't know what made me 8 put my hand on the ground, but I put my hand on the 9 ground and I kneeled in there. 10 Q: And so the lights came on in the Park 11 -- the spotlight came on. You could see the police 12 officers, see their helmets, their shields, their -- 13 their uniforms, how they were dressed. What, then, 14 happened? 15 A: Then their pace picked up a lot 16 quicker. The closer I got to the Park, the faster the 17 pace got. By then I was in this area. 18 Q: And by then you would -- by then -- 19 so, perhaps you could mark a -- a number 3 on the -- and 20 at this point where you put the number 3, it's at the -- 21 on East Parkway Drive just west of the point where Army 22 Camp Road turns into East Parkway Drive. 23 At this point the lights are on in the -- 24 the car lights are on the Park and the spotlight's on? 25 A: They were on before that.

1 Q: They were on? 2 A: They started coming on when I told 3 them, They're -- they're coming, get ready. 4 Q: And so at point number 3, the police 5 have picked up their pace, you're -- at that point -- 6 then what did you do? 7 A: There was nothing I could do but back 8 up. 9 Q: And -- 10 A: I was still backing up at that point. 11 Q: And did you eventually turn around 12 and go back into the Park or did you -- 13 A: I thought about turning the direction 14 that I was going and go up towards Highway 21, but a 15 feeling came inside of me not to do that, to go back with 16 these people there. 17 Q: And so at one time you thought that 18 you might go up Army Camp Road towards Highway -- 19 A: Yes, I thought about it, but I 20 remembered my sister and brother and friends that were 21 behind me and I -- I -- I didn't want to leave. 22 Q: So, what did you do? You went back 23 across the sandy parking lot into the Park? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And --

1 A: At that time I was -- I was -- they 2 were right behind me, only a matter of feet -- a short 3 distance. They were almost right on top of me by then. 4 Q: And the -- did you see any other 5 Occupiers in the sandy parking lot as you were moving 6 back towards the Park? 7 A: There was -- there may have been -- 8 yes, there was -- not very many, a couple of them 9 standing outside along by the fence there and -- 10 Q: And when the police officers moved 11 into the sandy parking lot, what -- what did the police 12 officers do? Did they spread out? Did they stay 13 together? 14 A: They spread out. They started 15 spreading out of the -- near the parking lot area. I was 16 backing up watching them. I backed up right to -- almost 17 to the edge of the road at the corner there. 18 Q: Yes? And -- 19 A: I was still backing up where number 3 20 is. 21 Q: And you say the police officers 22 started to spread out as you -- when you were still at 23 number 3? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And as you backed up into the sandy

1 parking lot and the police were behind you, when the 2 police entered the sandy parking lot, what did the police 3 do? 4 A: They seemed to spread out and I had 5 to turn and they forced me to go inside the Park. 6 Q: Okay. And once you went inside the 7 Park, can you tell us what the formation of -- of the 8 police formation was in the sandy parking lot? 9 A: They were all spread all the way 10 across the whole roadway on, partly on top of, there was 11 a little hill near the side of that parking lot and they 12 were up right to that point all the way across they 13 pretty much came and -- 14 Q: Can -- 15 A: -- spread across the whole roadway. 16 Q: Can you just -- there's a separate 17 microphone on that table or there should be, Mr. George. 18 Could you just pick up the other microphone? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think it's 20 behind the screen. Yes, right there. It should be right 21 there. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: Sorry, Mr. George, it's normally on 25 the table. And could you turn around and show us on P-

1 109, as you -- when you went back into the Park, how the 2 police -- what the police were doing and what formation 3 they were in? 4 A: Is it on? 5 Q: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think so. 7 THE WITNESS: They were starting to 8 spread all the way across this whole complete area right 9 in here. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: And you're drawing, with your pointer 13 you're illustrating the -- from the northern -- north -- 14 north line of the sandy parking lot near the first 15 intersection which I believe has a number 11-02 on it. 16 And down to the area on the south side of the sandy 17 parking lot just to the west of the -- the sand pile. 18 Do you know if that sand pile was there on 19 September 6th, do you remember that sand pile on P109? 20 A: I believe it may have been, yes. 21 Q: You don't know? 22 A: Yes, I think it was there. 23 Q: Okay. And so they were spread out the 24 -- and they then advanced in a straight line towards you? 25 When you went back into the Park, how were the police --

1 where were the police officers? Could you draw a line on 2 Exhibit P-109 where the police officers were when you 3 went back into the Park and put a number 4 on it please, 4 Mr. George? 5 And how close -- could you put a number 4 6 just beside that line please? And the -- how close to 7 the fence did the police come the first time they came 8 into the sandy parking lot? 9 A: They were leaning right over the 10 fence. 11 Q: And what was happening at the -- when 12 they were leaning over the fence? What were they doing? 13 A: They were swinging their billy sticks 14 at the ones that were inside the Park. 15 Q: And did -- what was happening -- what 16 were the people -- you could put that microphone down now 17 I think for the moment. And what were the people inside 18 the Park doing, this? 19 A: That angered them. 20 Q: Yes. But what did they do? 21 A: They started throwing sticks and 22 stones and burning sticks in the fire. 23 Q: And did -- what did the police do? 24 They came up to the fence that -- you indicate they were 25 at the fence with their clubs. Did they then retreat, or

1 move back, away from the fence? 2 A: They did after they realized that 3 they angered the people that were there by swinging their 4 clubs because when I was backing up and when I was forced 5 over that fence into the Park, I didn't really want to go 6 inside that Park again but... 7 Q: Why didn't you want to go inside the 8 Park? 9 A: Because I never really understood 10 about the issue surrounding why they -- why they went 11 inside the Park and I -- there was really no answers to 12 yet why they were there and what they -- what the ones 13 that were there were trying to tell the Government, 14 trying to tell someone that it wasn't -- it was too short 15 a time for anyone to really understand why, especially 16 when you don't realize it yourself, you don't understand 17 it, you're trying to learn about it. 18 So I felt that I had the -- I had the 19 right to be on the roadway, they give me that right to be 20 on that roadway but I was never -- that's just the way I 21 felt. 22 Q: Okay. And you say that the police 23 retreated or moved back because they knew they had 24 angered the people in the Park now. You can't really 25 say, Mr. George, can you, what the police were thinking,

1 that was your supposition? 2 A: No. 3 Q: You agree you can't -- you can't say 4 what the police were thinking when they made the movement 5 away from the fence? 6 A: What I was thinking that they were -- 7 this is what I thought at that time when it was happening 8 to us, is that they were coming in, because they never 9 mentioned anything to us before they got there. 10 They never tried to talk to me, they 11 didn't try to use any kind of loud-speaking device to 12 tell us not to be there or to clear the area, there was 13 no -- they didn't inform us whatsoever. 14 Q: So that, there was no warnings by the 15 police officers -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- as they came and -- 18 A: They just rushed in and came right up 19 to the fence and started swinging at people that were 20 close to the fence and I don't know, they may have been 21 in contact with other individuals that were inside that 22 Park, I -- they were awful close and there may have been 23 contact with other individuals. 24 I was at -- when I -- when I started to 25 see that happen I -- a funny feeling started coming

1 inside of me. And then that went on for not very long, 2 just... 3 Q: And, Mr. George, when the police were 4 at the fence line, did the police attempt to come in over 5 the fence into the Park? 6 A: No, they -- they came to the fence 7 line and leaned over and that's as far as they came with 8 their -- you know -- with swinging their billy sticks. 9 Q: But they stopped at the fence line? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And when the police, at one point, 12 after a few minutes, the police left the fence line? 13 A: Yes, they backed up. 14 Q: And where did they back up to, Mr. 15 George? 16 A: They backed up to the other side of 17 the roadway, the parking lot. 18 Q: And so they backed up to the west 19 side of the -- of the sandy parking lot? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And can you, using the laser, can you 22 just point out on Exhibit P-109, where you recall the 23 police officers backing up to? 24 And could you draw a line on Exhibit P- 25 109, Mr. George, the approximate location of the police

1 officers when they backed up across the sandy parking 2 lot? And could you put a number 5 on that -- by that 3 line, Mr. George, please? Thank you. So the police 4 officers are lined up on the west side of the sandy 5 parking lot along the west edge of the sandy parking lot. 6 Then what happened? 7 A: Then I tried to speak to them again. 8 There was -- at that time there was still rocks being 9 thrown at them and burning sticks were being thrown at 10 them. That angered them, the ones that were -- the ones 11 that were in the Park. 12 Q: That angered the people in the -- the 13 people in the Park were angry at the police officers? 14 A: Yes, sir, they brought -- they 15 brought on anger to the people that were there -- great 16 anger. 17 Q: And So the people inside the Park 18 were throwing rocks and sticks at the police officers? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And at this point, approximately how 21 many people -- Occupiers -- were inside the Park? 22 A: Not a lot. I -- there wasn't very 23 many people there. I can't give an exact, but around 24 twenty (20) -- twenty-five (25), more than that. 25 Q: Okay. And you were, at this point,

1 inside the Park, and whereabouts -- where was your 2 location inside the Park? 3 A: I was right inside that turnstile you 4 keep referring to as a little hole in the fence there. 5 Q: Yes? And could you mark on Exhibit 6 P-109 with a small "x" and put the number 6 beside it 7 where you were standing on the inside of the Park? 8 A: It was -- 9 Q: No -- 10 A: -- I marked that I -- I kind of 11 looked around to see where all of the police were 12 standing and they were kind of up on the hills a little 13 bit behind me. They weren't just on the ground, they 14 were up -- you could see them standing there. 15 Q: when you say, "They were on the 16 hills," they were -- there's a slope up from the sandy 17 parking lot to the west, so they were backed up -- 18 A: Yes, there was a little hill there 19 and there was other police officers that were standing up 20 in that area, too. 21 Q: And can you point on Exhibit P-109 22 that's behind you with your laser, where the police 23 officers on the hill were? And were they -- on the east 24 side there's a fence at that point in the sandy parking 25 lot. Is that not correct, Mr. George? Do you recall

1 that? That's up -- 2 A: I can't recall if there was a -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- fence there or not. I know there 5 was -- there were -- there were some police officers 6 standing up higher than the rest. 7 Q: And were they dressed in the same 8 uniforms? 9 A: No. 10 Q: What -- can you describe how those 11 police officers looked? 12 A: They weren't -- they didn't have a 13 shield and a helmet like the rest of them did. They were 14 -- who else would be standing there but police officers 15 and they were up -- and I kind of looked to my left and 16 it looked like there was -- may have been more. 17 Q: Okay, let's do this one (1) -- let's 18 do this one (1) step at a time. Can you mark on Exhibit 19 P-109, where the police officers that you said were on 20 the hill, where they were located? Can you just simply 21 mark that with your marker? 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 23 think he's marked where he was yet. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, we're going to 25 come back to that I think.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The number 2 might -- 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, I'll -- I'll come 4 back to -- I'm going to change the order here. We'll 5 come back, Commissioner, to... 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And how many police officers did you 9 observe up there? 10 A: Number 6 -- you want me to write in 11 that? 12 Q: Yeah, write number 6 there, Mr. 13 George. We'll scratch the first six (6). And how may 14 police officers were there? 15 A: I can't recall, but they were 16 standing up there. 17 Q: Okay. And you said that you saw some 18 other police officers on a -- another hill? 19 A: They kind of caught the corner of my 20 eye. It looked like they were standing on that sand pile 21 right on the corner of the road there. Right at the 22 corner. 23 Q: Okay. Now the evidence most -- the 24 evidence that we've heard, Mr. George, is that sandy -- 25 that sand pile that's on Exhibit P-109 was not there the

1 evening of September 6th. But that there to the -- 2 there's a bank that runs along the south side of the -- 3 of the sandy parking lot that's higher than the sandy 4 parking lot. It's a -- it's a bank of sand and -- 5 A: I know I -- I looked to my left and I 6 -- I know they were standing in there too, in the -- 7 Q: Could you speak up a little bit, Mr. 8 George. 9 A: I know -- I knew they were standing - 10 - they were covering the whole area like that. They 11 weren't just in front of us. They were to the left of us 12 and they to the right. 13 Q: And the -- can you point out on 14 Exhibit P-109 where the police officers were that you saw 15 on the left side. 16 Q: And how many police -- 17 A: Marked that number 7. 18 Q: Okay. At point number 7, how many 19 police officers were there, Mr. George? 20 A: I don't know. They kind of formed a 21 line. There was two (2) lines of riot police, one front 22 and one back and there was some more up in the area I 23 pointed out in number 6. 24 Q: Yes? 25 A: And I looked over to my left and I

1 seen them at the corner of the road. 2 Q: And at that corner where you've 3 marked number 7, what were those police officers wearing? 4 A: I couldn't tell they were -- you 5 could see figures moving in that area but I don't know. 6 Q: Could you tell how many police -- how 7 many people were there? You assumed there were police 8 officers but could you tell how many people were there? 9 A: No. I cannot. 10 Q: So at this point you're inside the 11 parking lot by the turnstile, could you mark on Exhibit 12 P-109 with an X and the number 8 where you were standing 13 on the inside of the Park, Mr. George, please. 14 And do you recall who was standing near 15 you? 16 A: There were different people standing 17 around in that area there. I can't exact -- I can't 18 recall who exactly where they -- who they were. 19 Q: So you're on the inside of the Park. 20 The -- some police officers -- the police officers with 21 the shields and the riot gear had backed up to the west 22 side of the Park. 23 You observed the police officers on the 24 little hill where you've marked number 6 and as well at 25 this point you observed the police officers at number 7?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Then what did you do? The police 3 officers were well away from the fence line. 4 A: They weren't well away but it was 5 just a short distance and I know they heard what we were 6 trying to tell them. There was a lot of yelling going 7 on, there was anger that filled that area. There were a 8 lot of different mixed emotions that were taking place at 9 that time. 10 And I decided I would try to speak again. 11 But I -- after they backed up and took their stance. 12 Again I tried to mention what I thought was the best at 13 the time because the ones involved in that type of 14 scenario, it's not an easy thing to be involved in. 15 I was never involved with anything like 16 that before. Neither were the ones that were down there 17 were involved in that type of -- it made it really 18 difficult to think of the right words to -- to try to 19 tell these police officers that were -- that retreated 20 and just stood there. They were banging on their shields 21 with their sticks, as a show of some kind of force to 22 bring anger to us or bring fear to us. 23 I felt that there was -- the fear was 24 starting to leave, knowing that they weren't -- they 25 weren't afraid anymore, because they -- they were acting

1 in self-defence. The fear was starting to leave the 2 people down there and the anger was building. 3 And not only -- not only in the ones that 4 were initially in the Park, I think it started to build 5 within me, but I tried to keep my anger inside the best I 6 could, and then I told them that our grandfathers were 7 buried there. 8 Q: And were you on the inside or the 9 outside of the Park at this point? 10 A: I was on the inside. 11 Q: Yes? 12 A: And then if they continued to do this 13 to the people there that they would have no respect and 14 no honour. I told them not to do this. And I told them 15 that there's young ones -- the younger ones that were 16 there, everyone that was there were a part of the seventh 17 generation. 18 What importance that has, I guess, this 19 country will find out what the seventh generation is. I 20 only understand bits and pieces about the seventh 21 generation I refer to and I -- I knew that the police 22 there, they -- they had fear inside of them. They 23 probably had anger inside of them. 24 And I looked around and -- and I was 25 wondering where the Anishnaabeg police were. I was

1 looking for Indian cops but they were no where in the 2 area. 3 I kept thinking back to the time where I 4 had to help our cousin Darryl on Kettle Point, where they 5 listened, they tried to understand what -- what I went 6 through there and there was no Indian cops there to help 7 us communicate. 8 Q: So what did you do, Mr. George? 9 Would you like a minute, Mr. George, we could take a 10 short break. 11 A: No, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take 13 the morning break now. Unless it's too completely 14 inappropriate, I think -- 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Well, perhaps we can-- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 17 to go on? 18 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah, Mr. George would 19 like to go on. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 21 to go on? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 24 THE WITNESS: Before I continue on, I'd 25 like to mention one other important part of what took

1 place down there, is that, I travel to different parts of 2 the country, can't understand why this took place and why 3 it happened, especially when he was a friend, to what -- 4 what they did to us. We lost a brother, we lost a 5 friend, and I was part -- I was involved in it. I was 6 front and centre. 7 Mankind then filled me with so much anger 8 at that point, to this day I'm still trying to understand 9 what took over me. Everything that I understood from 10 life, what I learned about, what I've seen, about our 11 land, about our people. Then I got filled with a feeling 12 that I wish nobody has, that will ever come to them. 13 The subconscious mind, whatever that is, 14 it took over me. At that point, I have nothing left 15 inside of me but anger for what they did and what they 16 were continuing to do because no one would stop, no one 17 would come out and try to talk to us. I tried talking, 18 but it seemed like they were there to do a job that they 19 were trained to do. No one knew why whether they were 20 there except for they were there, to show force. 21 I knew why. I knew something bad was going 22 to happen when that feeling took over me -- took over me. 23 I had a radio that I was carrying. I put it down on a 24 stone. The stick that I was carrying outside, I believe 25 I threw it down. Maybe a scanner I was carrying, if I had

1 it I -- I can't remember. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 THE WITNESS: I picked up what I believe 6 was a stick. It took me years, to think about what I had 7 in my hand. I know I mentioned in previous testimonies, 8 that it was a stick. I talked to our Creator to try to 9 help me understand. I changed my decision. It was a 10 pipe. 11 I live with this feeling day after day. 12 Hour after hour. Month after month. Year after year. 13 Searching inside, looking for an answer. Sam's family 14 was looking for an answer. Sam's family wanted the 15 truth. I went to the hills, I went to the mountains, 16 talking to our Creator about what happened. 17 I stood on a hill, our sacred hill. In 18 the United States -- I stood with our spirits on that 19 hill. We know Little Big Horn. I prayed there, I prayed 20 for mankind to understand our nation, not to treat us 21 like that anymore. I thought about Dudley there. 22 Everywhere I found part of my answer, about why I didn't 23 run and hide. I found part of the answer who I am. I 24 wanted just to know that. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 THE WITNESS: Don't treat us like you 4 don't understand us. It's a terrible feeling to have, 5 the feeling that I had when I picked up that pipe. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: Mr. George, would you like to stop 11 for -- take a break for a minutes now? 12 A: No. Sam wants to know what happened 13 and I have to tell them the truth. 14 Q: There's some water there, Mr. George, 15 if you need some water. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There's also 17 a Kleenex there, Mr. George, if you'd like to use it. 18 THE WITNESS: When I picked up that pipe, 19 I didn't realize that I would lose friendship, that I 20 would lose a brother. And I went back over that fence, 21 every feeling that I had inside of me left me and I don't 22 want to remember what I'd said after that. 23 I remember telling them that there were 24 people watching them for what they were doing to us; to 25 leave them alone.

1 I heard other comments being yelled at 2 them, about mayflower, then I couldn't hear any more. I 3 couldn't hear any more voices. When a human being 4 reaches that point, I had feelings I can't really put -- 5 I couldn't hear anything any more. All I 6 could see were these police officers in front of me. I 7 can see their eyes right through the shield. I seen the 8 eyes. I wanted to run, I had nowhere to go. My friends 9 were there, my family was there, I had to defend them. I 10 had to defend myself. 11 And they charged. They came forward. I 12 couldn't hear the people that were behind me anymore. I 13 heard one voice saying punch out. When I heard that 14 voice say punch out I knew they were coming to punch me 15 and punch everyone else that was in their way because 16 they had no feelings. They were full of fear, they were 17 scared of the Indians. The Indians had sticks and stones 18 and they had guns. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Always protect yourself. Protect the ones 23 you love behind you at any cost. I raised what I had in 24 my hand and I wanted to run but I -- I couldn't. When I 25 seen that one person blink his eye I swung what I had in

1 my hand, and all I heard was an echo. And I was in a 2 nightmare, a nightmare that I dreamt about, and I was 3 fighting with my nightmare, and voices were talking to 4 me. 5 And I could see strange stars, they were 6 colourful stars. But I tried to get away from the 7 nightmare and they kept me in the circle. I was inside 8 of a circle, fighting with a nightmare. I couldn't feel 9 anything. I had no feeling. I was in a nightmare and in 10 nightmares you don't have feelings. But I heard voices. 11 Then I started feeling, I had a feeling 12 inside of me that came from inside, not from the outside, 13 it came from here on the inside and it started to come 14 through me to the outside. 15 And I seen shadows around me, hitting at 16 me, trying to kill me. That was my dream, they were 17 going to kill you, because they were afraid of you, that 18 you're an Indian, they're going to kill you. So I fought 19 the dream back. 20 Then my dream ended and I realized it was 21 no longer a dream. It got bright. Then I realized where 22 I was. I was in the dirt, with a mouthful of dirt. I 23 was tasting our mother, so I closed my mouth, and tried 24 to get up. 25 Whether those voices told me to say or to

1 give up, a voice came to me and said, give up, tell him 2 to give up. He gave up. So I said that. I told him I 3 give up. Whatever they were doing to me, they -- they 4 were afraid of me. They were afraid of the Indian, 5 because they don't understand them. 6 And I can't remember what happened. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: Perhaps, Mr. George, -- 10 A: I couldn't breath anymore. 11 Q: Mr. George, perhaps it would be a 12 good time to take a break. 13 A: I don't need to break. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: I would like to tell you what 16 happened. 17 Q: Okay. We'll carry on then. 18 A: When I realized they were trying to 19 arrest me, when reality finally started coming back, I 20 tried to get away and I told them the second time I quit. 21 Something made me stop fighting. So I stopped. And I 22 can't remember. I couldn't feel anything anymore. I 23 think they left me alone at that point because I can't 24 remember. 25 I felt my hair being pulled, then I

1 realized I was being taken somewhere. I don't know if I 2 was being dragged or if they carried me. I don't know if 3 they had handcuffs on me. At that point I found it hard 4 -- difficult to remember that part. At points I couldn't 5 -- there was nothing, blank, I could not remember 6 anything. All I seen was different coloured stars 7 everywhere. 8 I heard voices. It was not their voices. 9 Until I started to realize that they were moving me and 10 then I heard voices, their voices. My feelings started 11 to come back and I started to feel hurt. I hurt all 12 over. And I tried to remember what I did but I could 13 hardly remember parts. I tried to think back what 14 happened, I tried to think about what hap-- what was 15 behind me, what the treatment that the people behind me 16 were getting. 17 When they moved me to -- help me in a 18 vehicle somewhere, it was not a ground, because I heard a 19 door shut. However, they were talking to me, or they 20 were talking to someone else. I heard someone swear. 21 Both when I was on the ground and when I was in the back 22 of that vehicle. If it was savage I heard, it may have 23 been a different English word, but to me it sounded like 24 that, I'm not positive. 25 I kept wanting to go to sleep. I was

1 tired. They moved me to another place. I could feel the 2 vehicle moving. When I was inside that vehicle, I don't 3 know if they were hitting me any more or not. Something 4 told me inside to keep still, don't fight no more, 'cause 5 they're going to get you, so I didn't. 6 When I was in that vehicle, I heard 7 popping noises. I thought it was stones being thrown at 8 the vehicle I was in, then my memory started to slowly 9 come back about what happened before I got to that point. 10 And I remember them angered at the fence, 11 throwing rocks, so I thought they were throwing rocks at 12 the vehicle I was in and they were angry for what the 13 police were doing. 14 And I felt the vehicle moving. And they 15 moved me to another vehicle. I felt tired. There was a 16 lady there in that other vehicle and I realized it was 17 probably an ambulance I was -- my thinking still wasn't 18 very clear. I was trying to remember what had happened. 19 But I told her I wouldn't hurt her. All my anger had 20 left me, and I hope it never returns. 21 And then I went -- stuck into a hospital. 22 I wasn't really sure where, and I was still trying to 23 think. Later, I got -- my feelings started coming back 24 and I was hurting everywhere. But I had no anger, got 25 the last of me.

1 When I was at the hospital, one of the 2 police came up and he asked me to put my hand on some 3 type of device, I remember that. They said you were -- 4 were looking for gunpowder burns, and I refused to touch 5 it. 6 My wife came there and her brother, Rudy, 7 and Roseanne. They came there to look for me. She was 8 the one that told me that Dudley had been shot and he 9 just died. 10 From that point I had to -- I didn't know 11 what to think. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Mr. George, we're 16 going to take a break now for a few minutes and we'll 17 start again after our break. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 19 should take a break now. Mr. George, we're going to take 20 a break now and we'll come back in about fifteen (15) 21 minutes, is that all right? Thank you. 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 23 for fifteen (15) minutes. 24 25 --- Upon recessing at 11:57 a.m.

1 --- Upon resuming at 12:10 p.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 4 resumed. Please be seated. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, with 6 your permission, I suggest that we break for lunch now 7 until about 1:30 and resume then? 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It makes 9 sense. We're adjourned now until 1:30 and see what the 10 situation is at that time. 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you very much, 12 sir. 13 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry stands 14 adjourned until 1:30. 15 16 --- Upon recessing at 12:11 p.m. 17 --- Upon resuming at 1:31 p.m. 18 19 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 20 resumed. Please be seated. 21 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good afternoon, Mr. 22 George. I have to take you back and ask you some 23 questions about what you told us this morning, and I 24 appreciate that this will be difficult, but I do have to 25 go back and ask some of those questions.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you need 2 a break, or you want a break, or you want to stop, all 3 you have to do is say so, and we'll do it. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 7 Q: You told us this morning that you -- 8 when you came out of the Park you had this steel pipe in 9 your hand and the police officers charged and that you, I 10 believe you said you swung the -- the pipe and heard an 11 echo. 12 And can you tell me what the -- a little 13 bit more about what the echo was that you heard? 14 A: The echo was of glass breaking. 15 Q: And the -- do you recall where you 16 were holding the steel pipe when you swung it at the 17 police officer? Was it over your head, was at the side? 18 A: I just -- probably to my side. 19 Q: And do you recall, Mr. George, saying 20 to the police officers when you were out in the sandy 21 parking lot, I will take you on, you fucking assholes? 22 A: I never made that remark whatsoever. 23 Q: Okay. And can you tell us -- point 24 out on the Exhibit P-109 where you were standing, if you 25 can recall, when you -- you and the police off -- the

1 police came together? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 Q: And could you take the black marker 6 and put an "X" and it would be the Number 9, I believe is 7 the next number -- 8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 11 Q: -- beside where you were standing 12 where you and the police -- you struck -- the police came 13 up to you and you struck the police officer with the -- 14 or you heard the shield breaking, or glass breaking, 15 excuse me? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: And after you heard the glass 20 breaking which you had described as an echo, you said 21 that you then entered into a nightmare. And can you tell 22 us what that nightmare was and what you meant by that, 23 Mr. George? 24 A: It seemed like I had had a dream 25 before about being there. I can't explain why but, it

1 was -- like it wasn't real, it was like a dream. When 2 you dream I -- I don't -- I don't think you have any 3 feelings. That's -- it's kind of hard to explain. 4 Q: Do you re -- 5 A: We all have nightmares of different 6 sorts. Some can remember dreams when you wake up, and 7 some can't. 8 Q: Do you re -- no, I appreciate that, 9 but -- and do you recall when after you -- the sound of 10 the shattering glass, what happened? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And do you recall being grabbed by a 13 police officer or police officers? 14 A: No. 15 Q: And do you recall being on the ground 16 in the sandy parking lot beyond what you told us before? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And can you tell us what was -- what 19 happened when you were -- from what you can recall when 20 you were on the ground in the sandy parking lot? 21 A: I was -- I know I was trying to get 22 away and they were hitting at me. 23 Q: And when you say that you were trying 24 to get away, were you struggling with the police 25 officers?

1 A: I was -- I was on my back and I 2 believe I was trying to more or less kick at them and 3 protect my face because I knew they were hitting at me. 4 Q: And so that the police officers were 5 striking you with their batons and you were kicking at 6 the police officers? 7 A: I was trying to defend myself, yes. 8 Q: And do you recall if this is when you 9 were first went on the ground out at the area of number 10 9? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And did you recognize any of the 13 police officers that were striking you at -- striking 14 you? 15 A: No they -- all I seen was 16 silhouettes. 17 Q: And do you recall moving from the -- 18 the spot you were in in the sandy parking lot at X-9 back 19 towards East Parkway? 20 A: No, not really. 21 Q: And do you know if -- can you recall 22 if -- if you were carried back there or walked back or 23 were dragged back? I know you told us at one point you 24 felt you were being dragged. 25 But can you tell us at this point in time

1 at the beginning how you were moved from X-9 to the back 2 of the -- the west side of the sandy parking lot? 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 A: I remember saying that I gave up, 7 that way, maybe twice. They were still hitting me on the 8 back -- 9 Q: And is this -- 10 A: I was on my hands and knees trying to 11 get up and get away. 12 Q: And is it fair to say, Mr. George, 13 that you were struggling still with the police because 14 you were trying to get away? 15 A: That's all I was trying to do. 16 Q: And the -- was this on the west side 17 of the -- the sandy parking lot? 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 A: It was in that area, I don't exactly 22 know where. 23 Q: And at some point, did you observe 24 police officers that were in different uniforms than the 25 riot squad?

1 A: No, I can't say that. I was -- I 2 have a hard time trying to recall what was going on at 3 that time. 4 Q: And do you recall or have any memory 5 of police officers who were not carrying shields around 6 you? 7 A: No. 8 Q: And do you recall anything else that 9 the police officers said to you beyond what you told us 10 this morning? 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I think I mentioned I heard voices. 15 I'm think -- trying to think hard of what -- was being 16 said. They may have been talking to each other. They 17 may have been talking to me but, I don't know that. 18 Q: And when you were in, I think you 19 said, the first van you heard popping sounds? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And you described the popping sounds 22 as being, you thought they were stones? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And at this point can you recall -- 25 do you remember anything else other than just the popping

1 sounds? 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 A: Well I was on my hands and knees. 6 Q: In the van? 7 A: No, it was -- I could still feel sand 8 in my hands. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: I could feel something but it wasn't 11 -- anyway I was in the sand somewhere. And I was being 12 kicked. I believe I was being kicked because I couldn't 13 breath. I tried to breath and I couldn't breath. And I 14 felt -- I felt, I felt like things across my back, and on 15 my side. 16 I had very little feeling. I had no pain 17 but I still had a sense of some kind of feeling. 18 Q: And I understand -- 19 A: And I blacked out again. I -- I 20 can't remember. 21 Q: But as I understand it, you heard the 22 popping sound when you were in the police van, is that 23 correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And the -- you, I take it, assumed it

1 was a police van? 2 A: I don't know. It was a vehicle of 3 some sort -- 4 Q: Yeah. 5 A: -- because I heard a door shut. 6 Q: And you were then -- do you recall 7 hearing any -- the sound of shots? 8 A: No. No, I had a difficult time 9 trying to understand what was going on. 10 Q: And I understand that you were going 11 back and forth into more consciousness and less 12 consciousness during this period of time? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And when you went out from behind the 15 fence into the sandy parking lot, had you been asked to 16 do that by the occupiers? To go speak to the police? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And that was your decision to go out? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And do you know if any other people 21 came out behind you? Can you recall? 22 A: There may have been. I... 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 A: I'm trying to think real hard. When 2 I was standing outside that fence I seen shadows, but I 3 don't know if they were on the same side of the fence I 4 was on or if they were still on the other side of that 5 fence. All I seen was shadows behind me. 6 Q: Okay. And you've told us this 7 morning that you were moved to what you believed to be an 8 ambulance and there was a -- a -- a woman in the -- in 9 this vehicle? Do you recall that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Do you recall -- and you said that 12 you told the person that she shouldn't be frightened that 13 you're not going to hurt her or words to that effect; is 14 that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And why did you say that? 17 A: The feeling that was inside of me 18 before that had left me. 19 Q: And the feeling was, as you told us 20 this morning, the feeling of anger and -- and upset had 21 left you by this time? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And do you recall whether you were 24 conscious? Do you remember the trip in the ambulance 25 beyond what you've just told us? About speaking to the

1 woman in the -- in the -- the ambulance or what you 2 assumed to be the ambulance? Which we know now was an 3 ambulance? 4 A: I can't recognize the person that was 5 in there. It was bright. I don't exactly recall what 6 she had said to me -- come back or, you're not going 7 anywhere. I -- I -- whether it was her talking to me or 8 another person, I -- I was -- I had a difficult time 9 trying to think about what happened. I was tired; I 10 wanted to go to sleep. 11 Q: And do you recall saying that you 12 apologized if you hurt anyone? 13 A: I may have said that, yes. 14 Q: And can you recall anything else 15 about this -- the trip in the ambulance to the -- the 16 hospital? 17 A: No, I think I went to sleep. 18 Q: And when you arrived at the hospital 19 -- it was the Strathroy Hospital -- did you realize which 20 hospital it was when you arrived in the ambulance, Mr. 21 George? 22 A: No. 23 Q: No? When did you realize that you 24 were in Strathroy? 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: They were asking me if I knew where I 4 was. 5 Q: Yes...? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 A: At first I didn't -- I didn't know 10 which one I was at, you know. 11 Q: And did they tell you which one you 12 were at? 13 A: Yes, later on they mentioned that we 14 were at -- you were in Strathroy and... 15 Q: And the -- you told us that the 16 police -- the Ontario Provincial Police came to see you 17 or spoke to you at the Strathroy Hospital. How long was 18 that after you arrived, can you recall? 19 A: No, I don't. 20 Q: Do you know if it was during the 21 morning of the night time after midnight on September 22 7th? 23 A: I have no idea of time when that 24 happened. 25 Q: And how long were you in the

1 Strathroy Hospital? 2 A: That night, the next day, and I 3 believe they let me -- released me from the hospital the 4 day after and I was taken to jail from there. 5 Q: So you were in the hospital for two 6 (2) or two and a half (2 1/2) days? 7 A: Couple of days, a day and a half, two 8 (2) days, somewhere around there. 9 Q: And can you tell us the injuries you 10 had when you arrived at the hospital? 11 A: The biggest injury that I -- I had 12 was inside of me, deep inside of me. I hurt all over, 13 but not as much as I hurt from the biggest injury that -- 14 emotionally. It was the biggest one that -- other than 15 that it was -- I didn't really look in the mirror until 16 later on. 17 I only seen what I could see from my arms 18 and legs. I hurt all over my whole body from physical 19 injuries that you want me to describe? 20 Q: Yes, and I'm going to show you some 21 photographs that were taken at the time, but if you can 22 describe the injuries that we can -- if you could just 23 briefly describe the injuries that you sustained? 24 A: Briefly describe? My arms hurt, both 25 of them. My legs -- I couldn't really look at them at

1 the time until I gone into another room and there was two 2 (2) police officers there. 3 I tried to talk to them and they said 4 nothing to me. I told them that they shouldn't have did 5 that to us down there. No comment. I tried to talk to 6 them but they wouldn't say one (1) word to me, they just 7 sat there. 8 First they were staring at me and then 9 when I tried to talk to them they put their heads down, 10 like they didn't want to hear me. 11 Q: And was this, Mr. George, before or 12 after that you had heard of the fact that Dudley George 13 had passed away? 14 A: It was after. 15 Q: After? And the two (2) -- you were 16 in a hospital room and the two (2) police officers were 17 there with you in the hospital room? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And was it the room that you stayed 20 in? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And how long were the two (2) police 23 officers in the room? 24 A: All the while. 25 Q: While you were there?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And perhaps what I'll do, Mr. George, 3 I understand that Dr. Mar, I anticipate will say that 4 your injuries included an abrasion over the eye, do you 5 recall that? 6 A: Later on, yes. 7 Q: And that you had a bruise in the 8 middle of your forehead, through here? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And that you had swelling around your 11 left eye? 12 A: Later on, yes. 13 Q: And that you had tenderness over your 14 cheek bone? 15 A: My whole head hurt. 16 Q: Okay. And that you had bruising and 17 tenderness over the bridge of your nose? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you had a swollen upper lip that 20 had to be stitched? 21 A: Yes. I seen blood on my hands I 22 realized that I had been cut somewhere. I didn't really 23 know exactly where. I started feeling around and I knew 24 I -- my lip had been cut. 25 Q: And your -- your lip on the inside

1 was swollen and tender, both the lip and the gum, do you 2 recall that? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And that you had tenderness under 5 your chin? Was your chin sore? 6 A: Yes. A couple of my teeth were loose 7 also. 8 Q: Your teeth were loose too? That you 9 had redness and tenderness over the -- your right upper 10 chest? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: You had tenderness and abrasions on 13 your right thigh, do you recall that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Your left knee was tender with 16 abrasions on your knee? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Your left shin was tender and had 19 abrasions? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Your lower abdomen was tender? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: You had abrasions and tenderness to 24 your hands and wrists? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And was it both wrists or one wrist 2 in particular? 3 A: Maybe one (1). The other one (1) was 4 also sore but not as much as the one (1) that was -- 5 could hardly move it. 6 Q: And which wrist was that, Mr. George? 7 Do you recall? 8 A: I believe it was my right arm. 9 Q: And you had a laceration which was 10 stitched at the top of your skull -- on your head? The 11 back of your head? 12 A: At the back, yes. 13 Q: And you had bruisings and abrasions 14 as well on your head? 15 A: Yes, I had bumps all over my head. 16 Q: And you had what Dr. Mar described as 17 a linear bruise with abrasions under your arm. Do you 18 recall the bruises under your arm? 19 A: I couldn't see, I could only feel. 20 Q: But it felt sore? 21 A: All over, yes. 22 Q: And you had bruising and tenderness 23 in a wide area over the posterior of your left shoulder, 24 the back of your left shoulder, do you recall that? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And you had bruising on your back? 2 A: I hurt on my back but I couldn't see 3 anything until later. 4 Q: And you had tenderness, swelling and 5 abrasions to your right forearm? I guess that's the arm 6 that you just told us about. 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you had a decreased range of 9 motion with your right wrist, that's what you just told 10 us about as well? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And do you recall any other injuries 13 that I haven't listed? 14 A: When I -- after I was moved from one 15 (1) room to another where these two (2) police officers - 16 - they never left the room, and I believe that the Band 17 lawyers came in and had some questions for me. 18 Q: But what I was asking was, did you 19 have -- were there -- I've listed the injuries, did you 20 have any other injuries, physical injuries? 21 A: Yes. I had others but I didn't 22 really notice them until I was moved from one (1) room 23 and it got daylight and I couldn't -- I couldn't rest 24 comfortable because I hurt all over. So I had to sit up 25 and try to move around and -- because I couldn't lay

1 down. I found it very difficult trying to lay down. 2 Or I -- later on, yes, I got up and they 3 moved me into another room. And when daylight came I 4 looked in the mirror and my legs hurt and I looked at my 5 legs and there was skin taken off my legs, both of my 6 legs, and I hurt, the back of my legs hurt. 7 And I tried to turn to look at what had 8 happened. 9 Q: And did you have any injuries in your 10 groin area? 11 A: I hurt there, yes. 12 Q: And the -- you say that you were 13 moved to another room and -- and the second room that you 14 were moved to, the two (2) police officers were no longer 15 inside the room? 16 A: No, they were right outside the door. 17 Q: So they had moved when you moved from 18 one room to the -- the next, the police officers were 19 moved to outside the door? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And... 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Mr. George, I'm going to show you

1 some photographs that are part of the number of 2 photographs, Commissioner, that were taken by the SIU and 3 for the benefit of My Friends these photographs are found 4 at Inquiry Document 1005720 and they're pages 323 to 345. 5 But I've only selected -- there's only 6 eleven (11) photographs and they were the same 7 photographs used at one of the trials. And perhaps 8 before I begin the -- I've got a copy of the photographs 9 and a -- an electronic version, Commissioner, of the 10 eleven (11) photographs. Perhaps we could mark the next 11 exhibit, it would be Exhibit 110. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-110. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Exhibit P- 14 110? 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: P-110. What we'll do 16 is, Commissioner, I'll give you a copy of the original so 17 that you could take a look at these as we go along and 18 we'll mark those originals. 19 20 --- EXHIBIT NO. P