1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 December 6th, 2004 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )    (np)
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  
  7  Murray Klippenstein ) (np)       The Estate of Dudley 
  8  Vilko Zbogar       ) (np)       George and George
  9  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 10  Basil Alexander    )            Student-at-Law
 11  
 12  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 13  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 14  
 15  Anthony Ross     )   (np)       Residents of 
 16  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena
 17                                   (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )              Kettle Point & Stoney
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  
 22  Kim Twohig       )              Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Sue Freeborn     )   (np)
 25  Michelle Pong    )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (Np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 11  
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  
 15  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 16  Trevor Hinnegan     ) 
 17  
 18  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 19  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 20  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 21  
 22  Ian Roland       )              Ontario Provincial 
 23  Karen Jones      )              Police Association &
 24  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 25  Ian McGilp       )   (np)

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  
  7  Al J.C. O'Marra  )   (np)       Office of the Chief
  8  Robert Ash, Q.C. )               Coroner
  9  
 10  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 11  Matthew Horner   )   (np)
 12  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 13  M. Wood          )
 14  
 15  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 16  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 17  
 18  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 19  Anna Perschy     )
 20  Melissa Panjer   )   (np)
 21  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 22  
 23  
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 KEVIN SIMON, Resumed 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 8 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Trevor Hinnegan 107 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Robert Ash 115 10 Re-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 125 11 Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Derry Millar 127 12 13 CECIL BERNARD GEORGE, Sworn 14 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 131 15 16 17 18 Certificate of Transcript 228 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-108: Document 2001957, London Free Press 15 4 by Simon Tuck,'Band Threatens to 5 Barricade Ipperwash Base' July 23, 6 1990. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon convening at 10:38 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. We've been waiting -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- the last few 11 minutes to see if Ms. Tuck Jackson would arrive. We know 12 that she's on her way, but -- because her office advised 13 us of that, but given the fact that she has cross- 14 examined already, perhaps we can proceed. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Simon, may I remind 17 you that you are still under oath? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 20 KEVIN SIMON, Resumed: 21 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 23 morning, Mr. Roland. 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: Good morning, Mr. 25 Commissioner.

1 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 2 Q: Good morning, Mr. Simon, my name is 3 Ian Roland. I represent the Ontario Provincial Police 4 Association. I have some questions for you this morning. 5 Let me start, if I could, with the protest 6 that occurred in July 1990. There was reference to that 7 in your evidence-in-chief and there's a document that has 8 been -- has been handed out last week to all counsel. 9 It's 2001957 being a newspaper report in the London Free 10 Press dated July 23, 1990. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: I will locate another copy. We 15 handed copies to everybody last week. Let me just read 16 some portions of this article to you, Mr. -- 17 A: Did you give me a copy of that or...? 18 Q: I don't -- I think a copy would have 19 been given to you last week but I don't know that. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: What's the 24 headline? 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: It's called "A Band

1 Threatens To Barricade Ipperwash Base" and we handed out 2 copies to all Counsel last week. I've got a copy, maybe 3 I can use this. We found a copy as distributed last 4 week. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 7 Q: Now this refers to a demonstration 8 that you told us about. 9 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me. Perhaps 10 Mr. Roland could give the witness, Mr. Simon, an 11 opportunity just to look at the -- 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: Certainly, certainly. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 17 Q: Have you had a chance to look at the 18 article, Mr. Simon? 19 A: Briefly, yeah. 20 Q: Yeah? And do -- you recall that 21 demonstration, I gather, that occurred in July of 1900? 22 A: It's still kind of hard to remember 23 which differentiate -- there's been so many different 24 ones over the years. 25 Q: All right, but this one apparently

1 was -- was a demonstration which your grandmother, Melva 2 George, was involved. You see that from the article? 3 A: I understand on reading it, it was 4 that she was talking about another one coming up, but it 5 very well could have. 6 Q: Well, as I understand it, there was a 7 demonstration and what -- what this article says is that 8 if -- if the land claims are not settled, that there was 9 going to be a barricade put up at Camp Ipperwash some 10 time after August 14, 1990. 11 Does that help you recall the 12 demonstration; that is, it was -- it appeared to be a 13 demonstration in which there was threatened, a barricade 14 some several weeks later if land claims weren't dealt 15 with. Does that assist you in recalling this? 16 A: I think you're taking it out of 17 context what she had said to the reporter and what was 18 actually said to Army officials. 19 Q: I see. Well, what she says is that 20 if -- if -- that land claims need to be settled and if 21 they aren't there's going to be a barricade put up some 22 time after August 14, 1990 and she compares it, it 23 appears, like the barricade at Oka. 24 Is that something that you recall? 25 A: I recall there being a lot of

1 similarities being drawn between what was happening at 2 Oka at that time and -- 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: -- what could very well happen if the 5 Government didn't deal with our -- our issues. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And our land claim. 8 Q: And she goes on to say: 9 "The younger generation isn't going to 10 wait peacefully like we did. We don't 11 want another Oka." 12 And I gather that was a -- a sentiment -- 13 I gather that was a sentiment that -- that she had and a 14 number of people had that they wanted -- they didn't want 15 another Oka; is that right? 16 A: They were trying to avoid violence, 17 yes. 18 Q: Yes. Because that -- that's -- my 19 point is, that the reference to Oka is reference to a 20 violent demonstration or blockade; isn't it? 21 A: That's what it was made out to be. 22 Q: Yes. And what she was, I gathered, 23 saying is that she's concerned that the younger 24 generation, of which I take it, you would be a member, 25 weren't going to await any longer or much longer to

1 settle land claims. And that there was a real risk that 2 if they weren't settled soon that they younger generation 3 would resort to an Oka-kind of violent demonstration; 4 isn't that what she was saying? 5 A: She said it's possible. 6 Q: Yes. Now, in the article, it also 7 refers -- you'll see, near the end of the article -- to a 8 band separation. If you look at the article, you'll see 9 there is, near the end, a little subheading that says, 10 "Band Separation". And it refers to Stony Point members 11 who decided informally, it appears the previous Saturday, 12 that they would prefer -- pursue official separation from 13 the Kettle Point Band. 14 Do you recall that happening? That there 15 was a -- a decision informally made to pursue official 16 separation from the Pettle -- Kettle Point Band at that 17 stage, in 1990? 18 A: As I told you before, there was a 19 meeting with -- Tom Siddon had come down to Kettle 20 Point -- 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: I'm not too sure what the dates are, 23 but as I said in my previous testimony that there was a - 24 - a declaration of our -- our independence -- our right 25 to our own sovereignty, look after our own affairs.

1 Q: That is independent from the Kettle 2 Point Band? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And that occurred at that 5 stage in the summer -- in July of 1990? 6 A: I'm not too sure when it took place, 7 but... 8 Q: It also refers to -- the article 9 refers to -- religious differences between the two (2) 10 bands. Can you help us to understand what that referred 11 to, what that means? 12 A: Just religious differences. 13 Q: What those differences were? Did you 14 -- do you have any appreciation or understanding of what 15 the article's referring to? 16 A: No, I don't. 17 Q: You don't? Then, finally, the 18 article says -- says that in another sign of support for 19 the Kanestake Mohawks four (4) Stony Point members left 20 for Oka on Saturday night in a van filled with blankets, 21 food, and tents. 22 Do you remember that four (4) of your 23 fellow demonstrators or persons who were involved with 24 Stony Point left for Oka to support the occupiers there? 25 A: Myself, I had gone up there, but I

1 think it was a little bit later, more towards the end of 2 August or beginning of September. 3 Q: Okay. And do you recall who the four 4 (4) were that this article refers to or any of those four 5 (4) that went? 6 A: If it -- if I'm correct on the dates 7 there, it wouldn't have been the time I went, so no, I 8 don't. 9 Q: You don't know who the others were? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. And, sorry, you say you 12 went later, in August? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: All right. And for what purpose did 15 you go to Oka? 16 A: Same as what it says in there. We 17 took a van full of food and blankets and stuff like that. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. And did you go with others? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And who did you go with? 21 A: I believe they were -- I don't know 22 if it was an Anglican Church who had set that up, that 23 we'd hitched a ride with. 24 Q: All right. Let me turn to another 25 topic. Perhaps we could mark that article as -- as an

1 exhibit. 2 THE REGISTRAR: P-108. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-108. 4 MR. IAN ROLAND: Thank you. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-108: Document 2001957, London Free 7 Press by Simon Tuck,'Band 8 Threatens to Barricade 9 Ipperwash Base' July 23, 10 1990. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 13 Q: In your evidence last Wednesday when 14 Mr. Millar was asking you questions, he asked you about 15 checkpoints that were set up along Highway 21 in the 16 first part of the summer of 1993 after the initial 17 occupation. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: You remember that? And you said: 20 "We organized ourselves into basic -- 21 into basically as a checkpoint to keep 22 an eye on who's coming in, search -- 23 search vehicles, see what people are up 24 to". 25 You recall giving that evidence last week?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Yes. And as I understood from your 3 evidence, there were three (3) checkpoints along Highway 4 21, one (1) at the east end, towards the east end of 5 Highway -- of the -- sorry, east end of the -- of the 6 Army Camp. 7 One (1) you said, near Dudley's trailer 8 and one (1) near Cliff's trailer? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And you were asked whether 11 Maynard T. George organized those checkpoints and you 12 said, No, he didn't. 13 Can you tell us who organized those 14 checkpoints? 15 A: I -- actually I should have said, I 16 wasn't too sure. If -- he could have had something to do 17 with it, but I didn't really think he did. 18 Q: All right. Do you know who organized 19 those checkpoints? 20 A: No, I don't. 21 Q: All right. And did you participate 22 in staffing any of those checkpoints at any time? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: All right. And can you tell us how 25 frequently you staffed them and in what circumstance? I

1 gather you were working during the day, Monday to Friday, 2 at that stage -- 3 A: I was going to school when -- 4 Q: I see. 5 A: -- we first moved in there, so it was 6 usually after -- after school hours. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: Took me about an hour to get to Stony 9 Point from London. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: Usually from that point until after 12 dark. 13 Q: All right. And were those 14 checkpoints staffed twenty-four (24) hours a day? 15 A: As far as I know. 16 Q: And is it fair to say, then, that the 17 occupiers who were there in the Army Camp at that stage, 18 took turns in staffing the checkpoints? 19 A: Yeah, you could say that. 20 Q: All right. And do you recall who was 21 responsible for -- for assuring that there was someone at 22 the checkpoint at any given time? 23 A: I don't know. 24 Q: You don't know? 25 A: A volunteer basis from what I seen.

1 Q: When you came into the Army Camp, 2 having been off the Army Camp, were you checked and was 3 your vehicle checked at the checkpoint that you entered? 4 A: That's usually where I pulled up to, 5 so... 6 Q: Sorry? 7 A: You mean by -- 8 Q: By somewhere there, staffing the 9 checkpoint. Did they check your vehicle as you went in 10 and out -- or not out, but in? 11 A: In a way, yeah. I usually brought 12 firewood and stuff like that, whatever I could get from 13 school, so I'd pull up there and basically empty my 14 vehicle anyway, so. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: It'd be a way of getting checked, I 17 guess. 18 Q: And you said that the vehicles were 19 searched. What were the persons staffing the checkpoint 20 looking for in vehicles? 21 A: I don't know. At that time there was 22 -- we were trying to make sure that everybody was staying 23 sober in there, so we'd be checking for alcohol. I don't 24 know, mainly to keep track of who was coming in. 25 Just if somebody was coming in there to

1 give us a hard time or whatever, it was the best spot to 2 stop them and find out. 3 Q: So you said you -- but you said you 4 were searching vehicles. Were you searching vehicles for 5 persons, other persons? 6 A: Not necessarily. 7 Q: So you were searching them for 8 alcohol, you say? 9 A: Alcohol or anything else, just 10 anything that looks suspicious I guess. 11 Q: All right. Were you searching them 12 for firearms? 13 A: Could have been. 14 Q: You're not sure you mean? 15 A: Well, if they didn't have any, I 16 guess we wouldn't be -- yeah. 17 Q: You were looking for them though as 18 you staffed this checkpoint, one (1) of the things you 19 did was look for firearms? 20 A: Yeah, among other things. 21 Q: And you say the checkpoint lasted 22 much of the summer? 23 A: As far as I can remember. Yeah I'm 24 not too sure how long they had lasted but they had gone 25 on for quite a while.

1 Q: All right. And then I take it some 2 time at the end of the summer or -- or beyond the summer, 3 those checkpoints and the staffing of those checkpoints 4 ceased? 5 A: Yeah. As people -- winter set in, 6 people started moving out. 7 Q: All right. 8 A: Had less people around. 9 Q: Is it fair to say that the 10 checkpoints, as staffed, as you've described it did not 11 resume in 1994? 12 A: I'm not too sure about that. 13 Couldn't remember. I don't think so though. 14 Q: Yeah. Or 1995? 15 A: They had started up again in '95 16 after we moved into the barracks. But it was over at the 17 entrance to the barracks. 18 Q: Right. Okay. Thank you. Let me 19 turn now if I could to the army range hut that you 20 occupied for a short period of time. This is I think 21 identified as Building 105. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And I -- I think it's clear that that

1 building was not something that you created or others 2 constructed. It's -- it's a pre-existing army building 3 that was there before the occupation began in 1993? 4 A: Yes, it was. 5 Q: Now as I understand it, the building 6 burned down some six (6) hours after it was searched and 7 your belongings were taken by the military police from 8 that building; is that about right? 9 A: I would guess so. I wasn't around. 10 Q: Yeah. Hmm hmm. And I gather you 11 were, at that stage then, relieved that the military 12 police had removed your belongings from the building. 13 Otherwise they would have been consumed and destroyed in 14 the fire? 15 A: It doesn't really make no difference 16 to me I've never received those belongings back. 17 Q: But at the time you must have been 18 relieved that they weren't in the building at the time? 19 A: Not really. They were gone either 20 way. 21 Q: I see. And then I gather a few days 22 later on Saturday, August the 21st, you and others dumped 23 the remains -- the burnt and charred remains of that 24 building at the army Camp barracks? 25 A: Yes, I did.

1 Q: Yeah. And you did that, I take it, 2 as a demonstration or protest to let the military and 3 other visitors know that you were unhappy about the fact 4 that your belongings had been taken from the building? 5 A: That was one (1) of the reasons. One 6 (1) of the things that stuck in my mind, the largest 7 thing that stuck in my mind, I was told when those army 8 had come to take my stuff, was that they had -- they 9 didn't want to argue about whose land it was. They just 10 wanted to argue about whose building it was. 11 So when I dropped that building off, I 12 told them that that was a good start and if they wanted 13 their buildings they should take them. So that was what 14 was left of that one, that's what was left of that one I 15 guess. 16 Q: So I take it at that stage you're 17 happy that the building burned so that you could in this 18 way demonstrate that they could have their building back 19 in whatever condition it was then in? 20 A: I don't know about that. It was just 21 something that happened. It was burnt, took advantage of 22 the situation I guess. 23 Q: After the belongings were taken from 24 the building and put on the -- on the truck as you've 25 described them, I gather you followed the truck into the

1 Army Camp barracks, did you? 2 A: A while after, a few minutes later. 3 Q: I see. Did others of the occupiers 4 follow those trucks in -- in their own vehicles ahead of 5 you? 6 A: That's what I heard after. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: I didn't witness -- it was really 9 foggy that morning, couldn't see. 10 Q: Okay. And did you attend at the 11 military headquarters that morning and speak to a couple 12 of soldiers, Captain Prentice (phonetic) and Major Taylor 13 (phonetic) -- Sergeant Major Taylor? 14 A: I'm not too sure who I had talked to 15 but, yes, I did go to the building that was identified as 16 a guardhouse, at the corner of the Army Camp. 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: At the corner of Army Camp and 21. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: There was a number of army personnel 21 there. I approached them, asked where my belongings 22 were. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: And the reason I'd gone there was 25 because I recognized the deuce and a half truck that --

1 that's where my belongings were. I made my way around 2 back and realized that I had basically had been faked, 3 they tricked me, there was nothing in that truck. So 4 proceeded to ask them where it was. 5 Q: Were you with another occupier at the 6 time? 7 A: I had picked somebody up that was 8 walking but they stayed in the truck throughout that. 9 Q: And I take it you were angry and 10 upset with those two (2) military personnel, the Captain 11 and the Sergeant Major, because of what had occurred with 12 respect to your belongings? 13 A: I was angry with all of them; there 14 was quite a few of them around there. 15 Q: And is it fair to say you were 16 expressing your anger to them at the time? 17 A: I was making myself heard. 18 Q: Yes. In a -- could it be fair to 19 describe it as a -- quite an aggressive way? 20 A: Not any more aggressive than they 21 were. 22 Q: But you -- you describe them as 23 aggressive as well; do you? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: All right. So they were aggressive

1 and you were aggressive? 2 A: I was just loud. I wasn't being 3 aggressive physically. 4 Q: All right. Let me, if I could, turn 5 to the helicopter incident which occurred two (2) days 6 later, on August 23, '93 -- sorry, it occurred, yes, two 7 (2) days after the -- no, two (2) days after the -- the 8 dumping of the burnt hut on August 21st. Two (2) days 9 later the helicopter incident occurs. 10 And as I understand from your evidence, 11 you were at the Camp that night and you were sleeping in 12 your brother Marlin's trailer; is that right? 13 A: Yes, I was. 14 Q: And that's -- that was then located 15 at the south end of the firing range, at the automatic 16 range? 17 A: I believe so. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: It's the same spot that I marked out 20 on the map, where my -- 21 Q: And that's -- 22 A: -- great-grandfather's homestead was. 23 Q: That's where you marked it. And you 24 say you were asleep in the trailer: 25 "By that time I was never really -- I

1 never really thought too much of it, 2 just kind of put the pillow over my 3 head and went back to sleep when I 4 heard them flying around." 5 You remember giving that evidence last 6 week? 7 A: Yes. I was talking about the 8 helicopters. 9 Q: Yes. We're talking about the one on 10 the night of August 23, '93; that's the one, I take it, 11 you're referring to. And you were asleep, you say, on 12 that occasion; is that right? Do I have it right? 13 A: I believe so. 14 Q: All right. And the incident we -- 15 we're informed -- no doubt, the evidence about this -- 16 occurred at 10:23 p.m. That is -- it wasn't very late, 17 it was 10:23. I presume it, by then, in August, it was 18 dark but barely dark. It wouldn't have been dark for 19 long. 20 And so I gather -- is -- was that the 21 normal time you'd go to bed? 22 A: I get up at -- before 6:00 every 23 morning and go to bed pretty early too. 24 Q: You do, okay. Fair enough. I do as 25 well, I try to be in bed by then, so I understand. So

1 you -- you had gone to bed by that time and were sleeping 2 or trying to sleep? 3 A: That's what I remember, yes. 4 Q: Yes. Now there were -- there were -- 5 A: I don't know what time it was. 6 Q: Yeah. The evidence I think is going 7 to be that the shot or perhaps shots -- because there may 8 be some suggestions there was more than one (1), there 9 might have been two (2) -- were fired from the very 10 location that your -- the trailer was; that is -- that 11 was described as coming from the south end of that range. 12 So it was in the vicinity of -- of your brother's 13 trailer. 14 Did you hear the shot? 15 A: I never heard no shot. 16 Q: And were you aware, while you were in 17 your brother's trailer, that there -- that some -- some 18 person had been shining a spotlight from about that 19 location, in that vicinity, at the helicopter? 20 A: I wouldn't doubt it. That was 21 regular occurrence. Every time a helicopter came by, 22 they'd shine us up, so we -- somebody -- whoever had a 23 spotlight in hand would light them up too. 24 Q: All right. Okay. 25 A: But I didn't witness that. Like I

1 said, I was asleep. 2 Q: Now, I take it that firing a bullet 3 at a helicopter, you would describe as a serious matter? 4 A: It would be, yes. 5 Q: In fact it's something that could put 6 at risk the occupants of the helicopter? 7 A: I suppose so. 8 Q: Yeah. And we know that that night 9 there were four (4) persons in that helicopter. It's not 10 what you describe as a peaceful act, is it? 11 A: I guess not. 12 Q: No. And, indeed, you told us that 13 earlier in that summer in, I think, June of '93 that 14 you'd participated in a ceremony burying the hatchet and 15 planting a tree, right? 16 A: Peace tree, yes. 17 Q: Yes. And that was for the purpose of 18 -- of amongst yourself, you and the other occupiers 19 demonstrating amongst yourselves that you wanted to live 20 in peace, in a peaceful manner? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And was that a peaceful manner 23 amongst the occupiers, that is that you wanted amongst 24 your group to live in a peaceful manner, one with the 25 other? Was that -- was it for that purpose?

1 A: For all purposes. Peace with each 2 other and peace with our neighbours. 3 Q: All right. So I gather, then, you 4 were -- you acknowledge that -- that an act of shooting a 5 bullet at a helicopter from the area in which the 6 occupiers were -- were located and living, was 7 inconsistent with that ceremony, and the intent of the 8 ceremony? 9 A: I'd have to disagree with that. Like 10 I said before, I don't believe the helicopter ever did 11 get shot at. Like you said, if the shots supposedly came 12 from the trailer where I was at, I would have obviously 13 heard it -- 14 Q: All right. 15 A: -- if there was a police officer so 16 far down the road that could hear it. 17 Q: Well, we're -- Mr. Simon, we're no 18 doubt going to hear some detailed evidence about the 19 helicopter incident but let's assume for discussion 20 purposes this morning, that a shot did come from that 21 area, from someone occupying that area of the military 22 base, one (1) of the occupiers. Let's assume that for 23 the moment, for discussion purposes, all right. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 25 Rosenthal.

1 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes, and that's the 2 way he should have asked the question in the first place, 3 and Mr. Simon responded appropriately, and Mr. Roland's 4 tone is improper at this point. 5 He should say -- he should ask the 6 question hypothetically. We do not have any evidence as 7 to who, if anyone, shot at that helicopter. Mr. Simon's 8 opinion is that none of the First Nations people did. 9 Mr. Roland could ask him if a First 10 Nations people -- person did shoot at the helicopter, 11 would that be consistent with the burying the hatchet? 12 That's not the way he asked the question and Mr. Simon 13 answered very appropriately given the nature of the 14 question. 15 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well I'm now asking the 16 question. I think I did ask it as a hypothetical. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 19 Q: If someone, and I'll use My Friend's 20 language. I think I said assume someone did, so it's the 21 same as saying if someone from that area did shoot at the 22 helicopter, I gather you acknowledged Mr. Simon, that 23 that's not consistent with the intent of living 24 peacefully with your neighbours? 25 A: That'd be correct.

1 Q: All right. 2 A: But hypothetically, wouldn't that not 3 stop the flights of these helicopters? 4 Q: So you say -- 5 A: Hypothetically. 6 Q: So you're saying that if it did 7 happen, that it would have some useful purpose, is that 8 what you're telling us? 9 A: No, I'm not. I'm just saying. 10 Q: Well, isn't that what you're just 11 suggesting? That it maybe -- that it was useful and had 12 some useful purpose? Is that what you're telling us? 13 A: No, I'm not. 14 Q: Okay. And if one (1) of the 15 occupiers had shot at the helicopter that evening, I 16 gather those other occupiers there in the area would want 17 to detect who that person was and censor them, would you 18 not? 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me, Mr. 20 Commissioner. Mr. Simon has testified he was asleep that 21 night. He was asked about his views as to what he would 22 have done, how he would have regarded it with respect to 23 the peace ceremony, and so on. 24 Now Mr. Roland wants to ask him about what 25 other people might have thought about it --

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- in light of it. 3 He doesn't know what other people thought. He testified 4 very forthrightly about what he thinks. Mr. Roland 5 should be instructed to move on, in my respectful 6 submission, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You say 8 you've got some other evidence about this helicopter 9 incident? 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well there is, as you 11 know, I assume, Mr. Commissioner, there's a -- something 12 called a helicopter brief which I'm told is many inches 13 thick, and is -- it's something that's been disclosed to 14 this Inquiry, and I assume that at some stage Commission 15 Counsel will be putting that evidence before the 16 Commission, but we're not at that stage yet. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: As far as 18 this Witness is concerned -- 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes? 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- he's 21 testified that he was asleep when it happened. 22 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He doesn't 24 know -- 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: I understand that. What

1 I'm -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You may have 3 gone as far as you can with this Witness, although you 4 may get some evidence -- 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: No -- no sir, I'm -- I'm 6 -- what I'm doing is putting a -- put -- I want to 7 explore the -- this Witness and his fellow occupiers' 8 reaction to the -- to -- to the possibility that there 9 was a shooting of the helicopter, and how they reacted to 10 that possibility. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah, you 12 can ask him his reaction, but I think when you start 13 asking him about a hypothetical incident, how others may 14 react, I think you're going a bit too far. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 17 Q: Now, let me try it this way then, if 18 I could. Mr. Simon, you I gather, learned after the 19 incident of August 23, 1993, that at least the OPP and 20 the Military suspected that some Occupier had shot at the 21 helicopter. You learned that, did you not? 22 A: That's what I was told when I was 23 leaving -- 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: -- that morning.

1 Q: Yes. There was that and -- and that 2 was the point of the investigation that the OPP had 3 undertaken to determine if it could find some facts that 4 verified, or made out that suspicion, or not. Right? 5 Yeah? 6 A: And that's why I cooperated when I 7 left. I let them search my vehicle. 8 Q: Right. Right. 9 A: And so forth. 10 Q: As an Occupier, though, that wanted 11 to -- to occupy the Army Base in a peaceful manner, were 12 you not yourself concerned that one (1) of your fellow 13 occupiers may have shot at the helicopter? 14 A: I didn't think anybody did. Like I 15 said, I would have heard it if a -- 16 Q: I see. And -- but if you had reason 17 to believe that that might have happened -- if you had 18 reason to believe that might have happened, I take it it 19 would have concerned you? 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me, Mr. 21 Commissioner. How many hypotheticals -- 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You're 23 asking the same question as if it were -- 24 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- hypotheticals 25 are we going to pile on here? Mr. Simon has said he did

1 not believe for a moment that any First Nations person 2 had shot at the helicopter. Maybe he's right, maybe he's 3 wrong about the fact, but his belief was no one shot at 4 it, so he didn't investigate it any further. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Roland has gone 7 much further than he should have been allowed to go, in 8 my respectful submission, already. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think he's 10 -- Yes, Mr. Roland, where are you going now? Are you 11 staying on this? 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: I am for a bit, yes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 14 think that you better be careful how you ask the 15 questions then, because so far he said he didn't know 16 anything about it until after he was informed. There was 17 an investigation. When it was alleged to have occurred, 18 he was sleeping. 19 20 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 21 Q: All right. Mr. Simon, what did you 22 observe of the reaction of the -- your own community -- 23 of the occupiers to the suspicion of the OPP and the 24 Military that someone had shot at the helicopter? How 25 did -- how did your community react, and what did you

1 observe of that reaction? 2 A: What I observed was just in the 3 morning when I got up to leave I was told that there was 4 a -- and I could obviously see all of the police out 5 there. I asked what was going on, and they said they 6 were searching everybody, so I went out there, and 7 everybody was just as concerned as I was about what was 8 going on, and that's about that. 9 I went out there, and I was told by the 10 police that they were investigating a shooting and wanted 11 to search my truck. I let them search my truck, and away 12 I went off to work. 13 Q: Did -- did you participate in any 14 discussions amongst the occupiers about the seriousness 15 of this incident if there was someone in the area that 16 had shot at the helicopter? Had you discussed that with 17 your fellow occupiers? 18 A: Not at that time. I was gone; went 19 to work. 20 Q: Well, how about the next day? Or the 21 day after? 22 A: The next day I discussed it with 23 whoever I could, and it was -- everybody was the same 24 feeling as I was, that it never happened. 25 Q: I see.

1 A: That we were being set up by the 2 police, and the Army. 3 Q: All right. Let me -- could -- then 4 turn to another topic and that's guns at the Ipperwash 5 Army Camp, after the occupation began, in the possession 6 of the occupiers. 7 You told Mr. Millar on December the 1st, 8 which was last Wednesday, in the context of him asking 9 you about the Warrior Society, you said: 10 "Nobody owns any guns like that 11 anyway." 12 Do you remember saying that? 13 A: Vaguely. But if you read the rest 14 of... 15 Q: It's page 108 of the transcript of 16 December the 1st, in which you were asked: 17 "Q. And was there created a society, a 18 Warrior Society? 19 A: Oh. 20 Q: In the summer of 1993, or a society 21 of young people or among the occupiers? 22 A: Yeah, in a way, the -- when they 23 started they were talking to call it 24 Warrior Society but we had -- it had 25 been mentioned that a bunch of people

1 seen in the paper, they talk about 2 Warrior Society, they think of, like, 3 Oka and stuff like that where people 4 are masked and armed. And we had had 5 that ceremony where we had buried the 6 hatchet and we were always about living 7 in a peaceful manner." 8 You go on: 9 "Nobody really owned any guns like that 10 anyway, so -- but...". 11 And then it goes off to another area. 12 And when you said to Mr. Millar, you 13 volunteered to Mr. Millar: 14 "Nobody had any guns like that anyway," 15 What were you referring to? 16 A: May have been that I'm talking about 17 what I was thinking about what I had been seeing in the 18 paper and everybody else had obviously seen it in the 19 paper, of people wearing -- carrying, like, military 20 style M16s or AK47s or anything like that. 21 Q: I see. So that's what you're 22 referring to is the military style M16s or AK47s? 23 A: Well, something along those lines or 24 -- or that was like the thing that was in the paper all 25 the time, it always had a picture of a masked Mohawk with

1 a gun with a great big clip, and... 2 Q: Okay. You know that the occupiers 3 did have guns of -- for the purpose of hunting? 4 A: Well, at certain points, yes. 5 Q: Well, you were living with your 6 brother, Marlin, in his trailer. And he's testified that 7 he had some eight (8) to ten (10) guns while he was there 8 as an occupier and he hunted some four (4) to five (5) 9 times a week. He testified that he had some shotguns, he 10 had a .22 semi-automatic magnum, he had a regular .22 and 11 he had a couple of high-powered, semi-automatic rifles. 12 I take it you were aware of that, you were living with 13 him. 14 A: I don't believe he had all of them at 15 the same time. I believe that's how many he had over the 16 course of a number of years. 17 Q: Well, he said that he had those all 18 at one (1) time, in his evidence, but that's September 19 28/04, page 196-197. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 21 Rosenthal? Yes, Mr. Rosenthal? 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- I don't recall 23 the reference, but did he say, Mr. Roland, that he had 24 those at Kettle Point or in his trailer? 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I think that my 4 friend, Mr. Rosenthal, may be right. I have -- I don't 5 have the reference, but he did, Mr. Simon, speak about 6 keeping his hunting rifles in Kettle Point but he may 7 have said as well that he had them at the Army Camp. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 10 Q: In any event, he did -- you saw that 11 there were -- that he had these guns from time to time? 12 A: He had various guns, some -- long 13 before he ever moved into the Army Camp. 14 Q: Yes. And did you go hunting with him 15 from time to time? 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: And did you use his -- one (1) or 18 other of his guns to hunt with? 19 A: Once in a while, yes. 20 Q: All right. And did you use the high- 21 powered, semi-automatic rifles that had? 22 A: Usually just a .22 or a shotgun. 23 Q: Let me turn to the Warrior Society. 24 You were shown the document that is 2002504, which are 25 the -- the Minutes...

1 A: What was that number again...? 2 Q: It's 2002504. They're the minutes of 3 that are -- that -- of a meeting that occurred August 13, 4 '93. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Mr. Millar's putting it up on the 9 screen. And you were asked about this and you were very 10 concerned about how the document came into the possession 11 of the OPP. And why were you concerned about that? 12 A: Well, I mentioned it. I made it 13 clear that my understand -- the question I had was if 14 that document was taken during -- after the shooting of 15 the helicopter -- 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: As you know, there was a -- a raid, I 18 guess you'd call it, where the police were looking for -- 19 were looking for weapons and stuff like that on -- on the 20 base after the incident with the helicopter -- 21 Q: Yes. 22 A: When I'd gotten home from work that 23 day, I was told by a number of people who were concerned 24 with documents that were inside of the -- the Council 25 Hall or as they may have called it, the Argument Hall.

1 There had been a number of documents and 2 they were concerned about the police that were in there 3 taking pictures of all the documents, flipping through 4 boxes -- boxes of stuff. 5 Q: You've told us that you became a 6 member of this society, although it didn't have the name 7 Warrior Society, at some later stage it changed it's name 8 as you told us. 9 And I gather you attended meetings of this 10 society from time to time, did you? 11 A: From time to time? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: Like I said, I never really 14 considered them meetings but ... 15 Q: Well were -- like the document that 16 we see in front of us on the screen, were minutes kept of 17 those meetings? 18 A: Very well could have. 19 Q: I see. 20 A: I've never kept no... 21 Q: Have you seen any minutes of those 22 meetings? 23 A: No, I haven't. 24 Q: Right. 25 A: It's the first time I've even seen

1 one. 2 Q: But I take it this wasn't a secret 3 society, was it? 4 A: No. 5 Q: There was nothing secret about it? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And so if there are minutes, there 8 would be no reason not to have those disclosed to the 9 Commission, I take it? 10 A: I guess not. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: I'm told, Mr. 15 Commissioner, that at Marlin Simon's evidence, at page 16 145, line 18, he indicated that he pretty well kept his 17 guns with him all the time. 28th of September. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 22 Q: Let me turn if I could, to another 23 area. The argument hall. You've told us about the fact 24 that -- 25 A: You back up there a second, when you

1 mentioned about my brother? 2 Q: Yes. 3 A: That's -- you're -- you're talking in 4 relation to the helicopter incident? 5 Q: No, I'm talking about just generally 6 about the guns that he -- he testified in context of the 7 guns that he pretty well kept them with him most of the 8 time or all the time. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's not 10 my recollection for what it's worth, Mr. Roland. I don't 11 want to go back over all the evidence. I'm not sure when 12 he said "all the time". Maybe he meant when he was 13 hunting because I do remember him leaving the guns back 14 at Kettle Point. 15 Now I don't have the transcript in front 16 of me, but there was quite an extensive examination on 17 that. It wasn't just one (1) line. 18 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: He did say that it 19 was back at Kettle Point. 20 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Where did you store 21 your rifles? This is page 145, line 1: 22 "Where did you store your rifles? 23 A: Where? 24 Q: When you weren't hunting. 25 A: Whenever I wasn't hunting?

1 Different places down Kettle Point. 2 Let's see, I had them in Kettle Point 3 and maybe even at the trailer where we 4 were staying or if we were going away 5 we would leave them at a friend's house 6 or something. 7 Q: And why would you leave them at 8 your friend's house if you're going 9 away? 10 A: We didn't want to leave them down 11 there because a lot of people go 12 through -- go through the things, go 13 through our stuff and just didn't want 14 them go missing? 15 Q: Okay. And where would you store 16 your -- your rifles or not store them, 17 but where would you keep them during 18 your active hunting periods? 19 A: Where did I keep them? Pretty 20 much with me all the time. 21 Q: Why is that?" 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: When he's 23 hunting. 24 MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 "A: Just -- you really -- you weren't

1 really sure when you were going to see 2 an animal you'd like to eat and they 3 would just pretty much pop up 4 whenever." 5 Excuse me, I went a little too far. 6 "Q: Okay, is it fair to say that -- 7 that hunting for wildlife was one (1) 8 of the ways that you provided for your 9 livelihoods down there? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Did you ever use your rifles for 12 any other purposes other than hunting? 13 A: Just target shooting. We'd zone 14 in our scopes or whatever so we'd be 15 shooting right -- right dead on." 16 And then they move into target shooting. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: Mr. Commissioner, you 18 are going to great pains to point to me that it was when 19 he was hunting, but I remind you that the evidence is 20 that he was hunting four (4) or five (5) times a week. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 22 think we can agree that he had his guns with him when he 23 was hunting. 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes. 25 THE WITNESS: May I point out that at the

1 time, if we are still talking about the helicopter 2 incident -- I'm not too sure if that's what you're 3 talking about -- but at the time of the helicopter, my 4 brother was incarcerated at the time -- 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah. 6 THE WITNESS: -- so obviously he would 7 not have -- 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 10 Q: I understand. No, I -- we -- 11 actually we weren't talking about the helicopter 12 incident, but thank you for that. 13 Let me take you, if I could, to the 14 Argument Hall. You told us that it was a -- a church at 15 one (1) time. That it had -- had had a steeple on it. I 16 take it that's at the beginning, that was when it was 17 first used as a building. Is that right? First 18 constructed? 19 A: Somewheres around there. 20 Q: Yes. And then you told us it was a 21 Council Hall. What council are we talking about? 22 A: Stony Point Council. 23 Q: All right. And were there a lot of 24 arguments about what was going on at Stony Point amongst 25 the Council or amongst the community?

1 A: Amongst the Community, yes. There 2 was different disagreements as would any other community 3 with a fresh start. 4 Q: And were those disagreements about 5 how to pursue the land claim of Ipperwash Army Base? 6 A: From what I witnessed, most of it was 7 more of a personal matter. 8 Q: I see. It wasn't about the -- the 9 way in which to pursue the objectives of the group? 10 A: Along those lines everybody seemed to 11 be pretty unified, but like I said, most of the arguments 12 were all on a personal matter. 13 Q: So, when you talk about a lot of 14 arguments, so that it was renamed the Argument Hall, what 15 you're telling us is, the topics of argument were 16 personal as opposed to topics about the occupation 17 itself? 18 A: At one (1) point it seemed that 19 that's what it deteriorated to, so -- I never said it was 20 renamed, it was just a nickname by a few of us younger 21 people. 22 Q: I see. Mr. Millar asked you about 23 interaction with the OPP during the time you occupied the 24 Army Camp, apart from the helicopter incident; ignore the 25 helicopter incident for -- for a moment. And you, when

1 asked about that -- this is at page 123 -- 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Which date? 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: -- of December the 1st. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 6 Q: It's at line 15. 7 "Okay, and did you have any interaction 8 with the Ontario Provincial Police 9 during the time -- period of time that 10 you were on the Army Camp except for 11 the incident with respect to the 12 helicopter?" 13 And then your answer really didn't focus 14 upon the OPP, but rather on the Military. You said: 15 "There was a few times where different 16 stuff had happened. If I don't know -- 17 if -- I don't know if I happened to 18 cross them, they'd -- from time to time 19 they'd be chasing somebody and they'd 20 come in on our property." 21 Now, stopping there, are we referring to 22 the OPP or the Military? 23 A: I was referring to the OPP there. 24 The Military, they were usually there anyways. 25 Q: I see.

1 A: Doing their range patrols and stuff. 2 Q: Okay. And so you say the OPP were 3 chasing people and came onto the Base? 4 A: A few times, yes. 5 Q: I see. 6 A: Well, that's what they had stated to 7 me when I approached them. 8 Q: Okay. And you said: 9 "If we found them, we would stop them 10 and tell them that they were -- they 11 were the ones trespassing, basically 12 treat them the same way they treated 13 all of us these years. So they weren't 14 --" 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: "They treated us 16 all these years." 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 19 Q: "Treated us all these years. 20 So they weren't -- weren't too eager to 21 do that too much so it didn't happen -- 22 really happen too much, too often." 23 Are you telling us that the -- from time 24 to time the OPP did come onto the -- the Army Camp, where 25 you and the other occupiers were living, in pursuit of

1 somebody and that you discouraged them from coming onto 2 it because it was -- you treated it as trespassing? 3 A: That's not what I'm saying. What I 4 said is that we'd ran into them at certain times. When 5 I'd approached them I'd ask what they were doing there. 6 They'd -- basically said it was none of my business. 7 So when I'd ask again and state who I was 8 and why I felt it was my business, they basically ignored 9 me. So I'd ignore -- ignore them back and told them -- 10 tell them to leave. 11 Q: I see. But -- 12 A: So it -- it was my belief that a lot 13 of these times that they'd be in there just to spy on us 14 or maybe make trouble. So -- 15 Q: But you did -- 16 A: -- what's the use of chasing of 17 somebody if they weren't going to be forthcoming with any 18 sort of information? Then it's my understand that 19 they're there to harass us, and we'd tell them to leave. 20 Q: And you said, It didn't happen too 21 much too often. How many times in your experience, your 22 own experience, did it occur while you were an occupier 23 that the OPP -- let's take between July -- sorry, May '93 24 and July '95, before you went into the barracks, in that 25 a little over two (2) year period, how many occurrences

1 do you say the OPP came onto the Base -- sorry, onto the 2 Camp, where you were occupying, and you confronted them? 3 A: They've come on a number of times 4 from what I was told. But myself personally, I'd say 5 maybe -- maybe three (3) times. 6 Q: All right. Now, apart from the -- 7 the OPP, I gather the -- the Military Police patrolled 8 the Army Camp on a regular basis? 9 A: Yes, they did. 10 Q: In fact we heard from Clifford George 11 that it, as he understood, I think it was twice a day 12 that they did a regular patrol of the Army Base; and I 13 gather that's your experience as well, or something like 14 that? 15 A: Something like that at least. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Sometimes more, sometimes less, I 18 don't know. 19 Q: And I take it you didn't have any 20 issue with the Military patrolling the -- the entire Army 21 Base on a regular basis? 22 A: As long as they basically left us 23 alone. 24 Q: I see. 25 A: Sometimes you're run into -- meet

1 them in the bush, the roads inside -- inside Aazhoodena 2 are fairly narrow. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: Usually have to make somebody back 5 up, something like that, so... 6 Q: All right. Let me turn, if I could, 7 to the incident of the tires of Marlin's, your brother, 8 being slashed by, you say, a military guy who was drunk; 9 remember talking about that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And, as I understand it, you talked 12 about Marlin's vehicle being slashed. As I reviewed his 13 evidence, he talked about his bicycle tires being 14 slashed. 15 Do you understand it was his bicycle 16 tires; that was the vehicle? 17 A: It was a four-wheeler. 18 Q: All right. And do I understand that 19 that led to a meeting with the police in Argument Hall, 20 and it was at that meeting you met Robert Isaac and Ed 21 Isaac? 22 A: Yes, I believe so. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 Q: And that was in -- at the end of 2 June, early July 1995? 3 A: I'm not too sure what the dates were. 4 I just remember, it was before I moved into the barracks. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: Because we were still down on the 7 ranges. My cousin Wallah's (phonetic) car, his tires had 8 been slashed. Speakers -- or -- had holes ripped in 9 them. The stereo was ripped out the dash. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: Nothing was stolen, it was just 12 vandalized. 13 Q: Okay. But your recollection is -- is 14 it was some time shortly before you occupied the 15 barracks? 16 A: Sometime before, I'm not sure about 17 shortly. 18 Q: And Marlin's evidence was that you 19 just kind of had regular meetings after that. Do you 20 remember there being regular meetings of the occupiers 21 after that meeting that occurred in Argument Hall? 22 A: Regular meetings with? 23 Q: Amongst the occupiers? 24 A: No. 25 Q: No?

1 A: Could have been. There was always 2 some sort of meeting taking place. Like I said before, I 3 wasn't always there during the day. I missed a lot of 4 stuff. 5 Q: All right, let me turn if I could to 6 the -- the questions you were asked on December the 1st 7 by Mr. Millar concerning discussions with the OPP about 8 the Park and about reclaiming the Park and I'm -- for My 9 Friends' assistance, I'm starting at page 148 of December 10 the 1st. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And the question was: 15 "Prior to September 4, 1994 -- '95, had 16 you had any discussions or -- with the 17 OPP or the -- about the Park and the 18 reclaiming of the Park?" 19 Answer: 20 "Oh yeah, from time to time. Every 21 chance we got we'd tell them that." 22 And it goes on -- we'll -- I'll deal with 23 that in a minute. But when asked about discussions, I -- 24 I take it there was no official discussions, that you 25 didn't -- you weren't part -- either alone or with other

1 occupiers -- approached by nor did you approach the OPP 2 for the purposes of discussing taking over or reclaiming 3 the Park, did you? 4 A: Kind of hard to answer that. We've 5 always tried to but -- like I said, but, being who we 6 are, we're not recognized as -- by the government or OPP 7 or anybody else like that to have -- supposedly have that 8 right. 9 And they've been more than willing to tell 10 us that on numerous occasions. So I don't see what 11 you're getting at. 12 Q: Well, I gather you would, from time 13 to time, come across an OPP officer or maybe more than 14 one OPP officer in the Camp or in the vicinity of the 15 Park and there would be some comment you would make. 16 For example, I think you said in your 17 evidence at Page 148: 18 "I told them a few times, whatever 19 chance I got, and it was going to 20 happen sometime but I never, ever knew 21 of an exact date or anything like 22 that". 23 And I gather what you were -- you would 24 come across an OPP officer, officers, and you'd make a 25 comment to them about the fact that it was going to

1 happen? 2 A: Yes, I did. 3 Q: Yeah. 4 A: I just told them it was our land. 5 Q: Yeah. And you told us that. But you 6 didn't, I gather, have any discussions with them about 7 the process or about the appropriateness of doing it? 8 You didn't have any kind of discussion in 9 which you were looking for feedback from the OPP officers 10 about their views or anything like that, did you? 11 A: I'd get feedback. They'd basically 12 laugh at me and tell me what right -- tell me, who are 13 you to have any right to say anything like that, kind of 14 -- type of deal, so I never really thought the -- that 15 there'd be any point to further discussions with them if 16 they weren't going to take it seriously or recognize. 17 Q: You knew, did you not, Mr. Simon, 18 that it wasn't for the OPP to make any decisions about 19 whether or not it was appropriate for you and your fellow 20 occupiers to take over or reclaim the Park? 21 That wasn't the role of the OPP, was it? 22 A: Say that again? 23 Q: The role of the OPP wasn't to -- 24 wasn't to negotiate with you about taking back the Park? 25 A: They would be the ones, definitely,

1 running the road blocks or whatever -- 2 Q: Is that -- 3 A: -- that they ended up doing as it 4 turns out. But, yes, you're correct. We feel that we're 5 a nation on ourselves and who we should be negotiating 6 with would be with the Queen. 7 Q: Yeah, with the government, or the 8 government's representatives, right? 9 A: At least the federal, not a 10 provincial. 11 Q: Yeah. But you wouldn't be 12 negotiating with the OPP would you? They're not -- they 13 -- they're not a decision maker on whether or not you can 14 go back into the Park or reclaim the Park or not, are 15 they? 16 A: I guess not. 17 Q: No. I gather what you wanted to do 18 at most was to alert the OPP that something might happen, 19 that is that you or your fellow occupiers at some time in 20 the future, undefined, you said you didn't know when it 21 was going to happen -- may act on their own accord, and 22 simply themselves retake the Park, or take possession of 23 the Park. You wanted to let the OPP know that, I gather. 24 A: That would be my intention, yes. 25 Q: And -- and I gather the reason you

1 wanted to let the OPP know that is so that it wouldn't be 2 a surprise to them, that they would be prepared to deal 3 with you as occupiers of the Park? 4 A: In a way, yes. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: I don't know about occupiers. Like, 7 you occupy your own land. But yes, we told them never - 8 - numerous times that we were going to do that. 9 Q: Yeah. And then you told us that 10 after you occupied the Park that neither you nor your 11 other fellow occupiers wanted to speak with the OPP about 12 the occupation, because you were worried that if you did 13 -- any individual Occupier did -- they would be 14 identified as a leader. Right? 15 A: That would be one (1) of the reasons, 16 yes. 17 Q: And you didn't want to be identified 18 as a leader because you were worried -- and your fellow 19 occupiers were worried -- that that individual identified 20 as a leader would be targeted in some way. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And so the result was 23 that you purposely did not engage the OPP in any 24 discussions about the occupation after it occurred? 25 A: After the occupation had occurred?

1 Q: Yes. 2 A: Yeah, like, once again, I want to 3 stress that I can't really talk for everybody, but my 4 intention was -- was after that. 5 Q: All right. And, Mr. Simon, let's 6 just deal with you then. What did you then -- anticipate 7 or expect would be the -- the kind or means of 8 communication? 9 Who did you expect, or how did you expect 10 some communication to occur with someone on the other 11 side of your dispute? 12 A: Well, obviously it wouldn't start 13 with somebody coming up there with a gun levelled at you, 14 and full body armour. 15 Q: Yeah. 16 A: As we stated may times we were a 17 peaceful people, and meaningful negotiations would 18 start -- 19 Q: But -- 20 A: -- in a peaceful manner. 21 Q: But with whom? 22 A: With the Government. 23 Q: I see. So, did you -- 24 A: Police are agents of the Government. 25 Q: I see. You saw the police as agents

1 of the Government for the purpose of negotiating land 2 claims? 3 A: Not for the purpose of negotiating, 4 no. 5 Q: No. I didn't think so. And so are 6 you saying that you expected, then, some Government 7 official to approach the occupiers in the Park for the 8 purposes of negotiations? 9 A: Somebody with, I guess, the authority 10 to do so. 11 Q: Yeah. And did you communicate that 12 intent or that hope to the police that you would -- you 13 would entertain negotiations with the Government, or some 14 representative of the Queen for the purposes of 15 negotiations of the land claims? 16 A: Like I said, we never talked to the 17 police, so who would we talk to? The police weren't 18 allowing people in. 19 Q: Okay, I'm told this would be a good 20 time for the morning break. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Unless 22 you're close to being finished. 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: No, I've got -- 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'd be 25 happy to wait for you to finish.

1 MR. IAN ROLAND: I've got a little more 2 distance to go. Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 4 break. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, before 6 we break, I might advise my Friends, we marked last week 7 Exhibit 21 from the Deane trial, which was I think 8 Exhibit P-106 -- 103, I believe. 9 I located on Friday, and was going to send 10 an e-mail, but I neglected to do so, Exhibit 21A, which 11 was also marked at the Deane trial during the cross- 12 examination of Mr. Simon, and it's here and available if 13 anyone wants it. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 15 very much. We'll take a fifteen (15) minute recess. 16 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 17 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 18 19 --- Upon recessing at 11:44 a.m. 20 --- Upon resuming at 11:59 a.m. 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 23 resumed. Please be seated. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND:

63
  1                 Q:   Thank you.  Mr. Simon, I'm going to
  2  turn to the -- the picnic table incident in the parking
  3  lot on September the 5th, right?  You've already
  4  testified to that.  
  5                 And before I turn to it, let me ask you in
  6  preparation for testifying before this Inquiry last week,
  7  had you read your brother Marlin's testimony?
  8                 A:   No, I didn't.
  9                 Q:   Had you discussed his testimony with
 10  -- with him, or with your Counsel, or with anybody?
 11                 A:   No, I didn't.
 12                 Q:   No.  So you didn't discuss his
 13  testimony in particular with respect to the picnic table
 14  incident at all?
 15                 A:   No.
 16                 Q:   All right.  I ask you that because
 17  let me tell you, that we've heard from a good number of
 18  witnesses about the picnic table incident on September
 19  the 5th, and apart from your brother, who testified that
 20  at least in-chief, that there were two (2) incidents.
 21                 There was the one in which the police
 22  vehicle pushed, or attempted to push, the picnic table,
 23  and then another incident later in which the officers
 24  approached the fence, and there was the pepper spray
 25  incident.

1 Apart from your brother, as I understand 2 it, all of the other persons who talked about the picnic 3 table incident said those two (2) events happened one (1) 4 right after the other, with the same officers involved. 5 And -- and your evidence, as I understood 6 it and read it, was that there were two (2) separate 7 events, as opposed to one (1) single event that was 8 continuous. 9 And I take it that's how you recall it, as 10 two (2) separate events, is it? 11 A: That's the way I recall it, yes. 12 Q: All right. We're going to hear 13 evidence, I think, from -- from the police officers that 14 it was really one (1) continuing event, and your brother 15 was asked about this in cross-examination. I'm going to 16 October 18, '04 at Page 31 and 32 to begin. 17 And he had put to him the statement of a 18 Constable Wayland (phonetic), Document Number 2003958. 19 In his statement he says that at 10:15 at night he 20 observes several natives carrying picnic tables onto the 21 roadway lot at Army Camp Road and East Parkway. 22 And your brother was asked: 23 "Does that time sound -- sound about to 24 you that it would have been about ten 25 o'clock at night?"

1 And your brother says, yes. 2 Now, you testified to us earlier that you 3 thought it had occurred earlier in the evening. Does 4 that help you, that it may have occurred later around 5 10:15 on September the 5th? 6 A: I was pretty sure it was still light 7 out, so, no it doesn't help me. 8 Q: And -- 9 A: It was such a long time ago, too. I 10 never wore a watch at the time -- 11 Q: I understand. 12 A: -- and a number of reasons. 13 Q: I understand. 14 A: But I do recall that they had left 15 before they had come back -- the two incidents. There 16 was a -- 17 Q: Well let me just take you through 18 that with your brother's evidence in cross-examination 19 because he was then asked at Page 35: 20 "How many people do you say that were 21 there?" 22 That is, how many occupiers. And he said: 23 "About a -- probably about a dozen, 24 maybe." 25 And he goes on to be asked the question:

1 "And you told the Commissioner that a 2 cruiser came by and the officers told 3 you to go back into the Park. Do you 4 recall that?" 5 "Yeah". 6 Do you remember the officers telling you 7 to go back into the Park? 8 A: No, I don't. 9 Q: All right. And at the -- question: 10 And that the officer was actually out 11 of his car and asked you to go back 12 into the Park". 13 Answer: 14 "Hmm hmm." 15 So your brother's acknowledging that that 16 happened. Do you recall that? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: All right. "And you refused to do 19 so?" That's a question. Answer: 20 "Yeah." 21 I take it you don't recall that, either? 22 A: No, I don't. 23 Q: Okay. And the question goes on: 24 "Okay, and I'm going to suggest to you 25 that you never said anything to that

67
  1                   officer about being afraid of people
  2                   coming to the area or bothering you. 
  3                   You told them it was a public roadway
  4                   and you could be there if you liked".
  5                 Answer, this is your brother's answer:
  6                   "Could have, I'm not sure, I'm not."
  7                   Q:  Okay
  8                   A:  Been a long time.
  9                   Q:  Well in your evidence to the
 10                   Commissioner --
 11                   Hmm hmm."
 12                 Was his answer.  
 13                   "Q:   You told him on the 29th -- the
 14                   29th of September that you told the
 15                   police it was a public roadway and you
 16                   could sit there if you liked.  Do you
 17                   remember that?"
 18                   A:   Yeah, I probably would have yelled
 19                   it at them.  They weren't really -- we
 20                   weren't really talking to the police."
 21                 Okay, do you remember that?  Do you
 22  remember that there was -- that there was some yelling,
 23  and indeed your brother yelling that it was a public
 24  roadway?
 25                 And that -- and that something to the

1 effect that you could be there if you liked? 2 A: I don't recall any discussions there 3 with the incident with the picnic tables happened. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Like I said, I was sitting on a 6 table, my back to the direction that the officers came 7 from. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: And then at Page 39, the question: 12 "And I'm going to suggest that point in 13 time that you and others were yelling 14 at those officers, and spitting at 15 them, and making threatening gestures 16 towards them." 17 Answer, this is your brother's answer: 18 "You're saying that we're threatening 19 the police officers? 20 Q: And yelling at them and spitting at 21 them. 22 A: And these are police officers that 23 are driving at us with their cars? 24 Q: No, I'm saying at the time that 25 after you threw a picnic table at one

1 of the cruisers, I'm saying that after 2 that point in time you were yelling and 3 spitting at the officers, and making 4 threatening gestures towards them. 5 A: We were throwing rocks, and hitting 6 them with rocks, and pelting them. We 7 were stoning them, I guess. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: I don't know. We would have been 10 yelling, yeah, sure. 11 Q: Sure. And at this point in time, 12 you're still in the sandy parking lot 13 area, is that right? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: Okay. And can you help us 16 understand where the stones came from 17 and you were throwing -- that you were 18 throwing at the officers in the sandy 19 parking lot area?" 20 A: From the gravel on the edge of the 21 sandy parking lot." 22 Now, do you remember that, that you were 23 throwing -- your -- at least your brother's evidence is 24 that at that stage you were -- some of the occupiers were 25 picking up stones and -- around the sandy parking lot

1 gravelled area, and throwing them at the police officers? 2 A: I just remember the picnic table 3 being tossed on the car after they rammed that table. 4 And then -- I don't know. There would have been a lot of 5 yelling going on after that incident. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: And then I remember that they had 8 left. And after, when they'd come back there was the 9 incident with the -- the pepper-spraying and they'd 10 threatened Dudley. That's when I remember that there was 11 a lot of rocks being thrown. 12 Q: Okay. Well let me go on and see if 13 this helps. Your brother says: 14 "Rocks from the gravel, yeah. 15 Q:" 16 This is on page 41. 17 "Okay. I'm going to suggest to you 18 that at that point in time a few more 19 cruisers arrived? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: Do you agree with that? And I'm 22 going to suggest to you that they also 23 told you to get back into the Park; do 24 you remember that? 25 A: Sure. And I'm going to suggest to

1 you that you and others refused to get 2 back into the Park? 3 A: Sure." 4 Now does that help you, that other 5 officers then arrived and told you -- directed you to get 6 back into the Park? 7 A: I don't remember that. Like I said, 8 there could have been other cars back on the roadway, but 9 what you just stated there, I don't recall that. 10 Q: Okay. Let me see if this helps. On 11 page 43 -- sorry, 42: 12 "Q: I did -- I take it then since you 13 refused to go back in the Park, that 14 the police then took measures to get 15 you back in the Park? 16 A: I don't know. Yeah, I guess. 17 Maybe. I don't know. We didn't -- let 18 me think here. This is a public 19 parking lot, and I don't know, I guess 20 we don't count as being public. So we 21 were forced back into the Provincial 22 Park, I guess, I don't know. 23 Q: Sure. And I think you have told 24 us once you were back -- once you were 25 back in the Park you -- you started

1 throwing rocks at the police and the 2 cruisers? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Yeah. And I take it that the 5 police were not throwing anything at 6 you? 7 A: " -- 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me, Mr. 9 Commissioner. 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: 11 -- "Outside from pepper spray, yeah, 12 sure." 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Excuse me. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 15 Rosenthal...? 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, 17 Mr. Roland, for the last five (5) minutes, has been 18 reading very leading questions as to Marlin Simon. He's 19 gotten answers, I don't know, and sometimes Yes, and 20 sometimes Sure, and so on. The main content is the 21 question, not the answer. 22 Mr. Kevin Simon has already indicated his 23 answers with respect to all of those matters, that he 24 didn't recall that. His recollection is different. 25 Whether Mr. Marlin Simon is more accurate, or Mr. Kevin

1 Simon is more accurate, will be determined at the end of 2 the day perhaps. 3 But my friend is now reading his version 4 of the events, primarily by reading the questions over 5 and over again, and it has to stop at some point, when 6 Mr. Simon, Mr. Kevin Simon has indicated his answers very 7 clearly. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I assume 9 he'll stop at some point. He's asking him if his 10 recollection is the same or different, and so far Mr. 11 Simon's been able to answer the questions when they're -- 12 when it's different. 13 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't see 15 any -- 16 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- I�m not 17 confident he can answer questions for a week, Mr. 18 Commissioner, and I'm suggesting it's not useful for Mr. 19 Roland to be reading his leading questions that have 20 equivocal answers from Mr. Marlin Simon, continually. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll see 22 how far it goes, Mr. Rosenthal. I haven't seen anything 23 that I think is improper yet, in terms of cross- 24 examination. 25 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, you'll be happy,

1 sir, that I'm almost finished this part of -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- I 3 assumed you might be. And if you were going on for 4 weeks, then I think we would all stop you, Mr. Roland. 5 But -- 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And I'm sure you 7 would, Mr. Commissioner, I wouldn't have to rise after 8 the first week, I don�t imagine. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 11 Q: So the question was, just where I was 12 interrupted, the question: 13 "Yeah. And I take it that the police 14 were not throwing anything at you? 15 A: Outside from pepper spray, yeah, 16 sure." 17 So he says, Yeah, they -- they weren't 18 throwing anything but they did pepper-spray them. 19 "Q: Okay. And the police didn't go 20 into the Park? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 23 you that what the police did was try to 24 remove, and move the picnic tables, and 25 get you back in the Park?

1 A: Yeah. I think they might have 2 removed some picnic tables, yeah. 3 Q: Sure. And you told the Commission 4 that there were some broken cruiser 5 windows and dents on the cars? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: And did you -- do you agree with 8 me that you were throwing rocks in 9 order to cause damage to the vehicles? 10 A: We were trying to throw rocks to 11 get the police to take off and leave us 12 alone." 13 Now stopping here, Mr. Simon, your brother 14 in cross-examination seems to acknowledge that this was 15 all one (1) event as opposed to two (2) events. 16 Does that help you at all in recalling it, 17 that it was one (1) event as opposed to two (2)? 18 A: I still recall it as two (2) events. 19 Q: All right. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If I'm not 21 mistaken, Mr. Roland, these are your words -- one (1) 22 event or two (2) events, if I'm not mistaken. 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yes, they are. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I can't 25 recall. Yes.

1 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah, they are. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: But what we've heard -- 4 what we've heard from other witnesses apart from your 5 brother is that this is all a continuing event. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I 7 understand. 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: We haven't heard it as 9 two (2) events until now. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I 11 understand. 12 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes we have, Mr. 13 Commissioner. On page 50 of October 18, Marlin Simon 14 says: 15 "I think the police regrouped and came 16 back again." 17 Perhaps we should look at -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, that's 19 fine. 20 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- page 50 of 21 October 18. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Line 20. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 7 Q: All right. And that's true and it 8 went on at page 52 to say: 9 "I'm not sure at what time they came 10 back --" 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Perhaps we -- 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we could -- My 13 Friend could read in the -- 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: Right. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- the portion that 16 Mr. Rosenthal referred to. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: Be happy to. 18 "Okay. Question: Okay, I anticipate 19 that we'll hear evidence from the 20 police that that's exactly what 21 happened and I take it you disagree 22 with that?" 23 Sorry, I should have started earlier. 24 That has to do with the fact that they were there at the 25 same time and moved them back into the Park. His answer

1 -- this is the answer that Mr. Rosenthal wanted me to 2 read: 3 "Let's see. I think the police left 4 and regrouped and then they came back. 5 Yes." 6 And then over on page 52, he says, at the 7 bottom of page 52: 8 "I'm not sure at what time they came 9 back or not. Nothing like that. They 10 did leave earlier a couple of times 11 that night -- earlier a couple of times 12 that night." 13 He's already agreed to that -- Mr. 14 Commissioner, that the event began at 10:15. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 18 Q: In any event, all of that is -- is to 19 say that none of this helps you, I take it, Mr. Simon, to 20 -- to compress these two (2) events into a single event? 21 A: They happened on the same night. 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: Other than that -- or evening, I 24 should say. I -- I recalled that happening. 25 Q: And --

1 A: The thing with the picnic table? I 2 recall that being, like, daylight and when they came back 3 they'd obviously brought a lot more 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: -- officers. That's when the -- the 6 pepper spray and the -- threat on Dudley took place, was 7 later on. 8 Q: I see. And you -- 9 A: What you're saying isn't helping. 10 Q: All right. And you agree with me, I 11 take it, that at 10:15 in the evening it's not daylight 12 any longer? 13 A: I would assume so. 14 Q: All right. Now, whether it's one (1) 15 event or two (2) events, let me ask you about the latter 16 part of the -- the -- the incident or incidents; that is, 17 that led up to the comments you've identified and the 18 pepper spray. 19 And I take it you agree that the -- when 20 the police came back they simply tried to force the 21 occupiers from the sandy parking lot into the Park? That 22 they -- they -- their presence -- their very presence 23 moving towards the fence line had those occupiers that 24 were in the sandy parking lot go back into the Park? 25 A: My impression was that they were

1 there to -- for a fight, calling people names and stuff 2 like that. 3 Q: Well, they certainly had -- 4 A: It had the effect of everybody going 5 back into the Park. 6 Q: Thank you. 7 A: They never said that that's what they 8 wanted. 9 Q: All right. 10 A: They came there bashing their clubs 11 and calling names. 12 Q: And you've told us, Mr. Simon, that 13 after the police left on September 4th, that is, left the 14 Park, they didn't go back into the Park on that day, 15 September the 4th, or on September the 5th, or on 16 September the 6th? Do you recall saying that? 17 A: That's what I recall, but shortly 18 after the one (1) lady who had asked me that was -- 19 stated there was one (1). Vince had gone in, so -- 20 Q: Yeah. But certainly there was no -- 21 there was no incident in which any of the OPP officers 22 went into the Park or certainly for the purpose of 23 removing any occupiers from the Park? 24 A: No, there wasn't. 25 Q: No, and --

1 A: Not when I was present, anyway. 2 Q: And even in the picnic table 3 incident, or incidents, there was no suggestion that the 4 police intended or did go into the Park on the 5th of 5 September, was there? They didn't indicate that they 6 were going to go in and they didn't make any attempt to 7 go in. 8 A: They never made no attempt to tell us 9 they weren't going to, either. 10 Q: Right. But isn't it fair, Mr. Simon, 11 that -- and clear that throughout this period of time, 12 the Park, for the occupiers, was a sanctuary; that is, it 13 was a place where they were safe from the OPP? 14 A: I don't know about that. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. -- 16 I'm sorry, yes, Mr. Scullion? Do you have an objection? 17 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: If I may, My Friend 18 is also skipping over the evidence of Roderick George 19 that indicates that the police were hovering about the, 20 quote, "sanctuary", as My Friend's termed it, in their 21 helicopter on each of those days. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, he's 23 asking him a question on cross-examination. He can 24 respond the way he wishes. It really is cross- 25 examination and we have to give Counsel a chance to

1 finish. Carry on, Mr. Roland. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 4 Q: So my question was, Mr. Simon, that 5 isn't it so that on the 5th -- 4th, 5th, and 6th of 6 September the Park was, in effect, a sanctuary for the 7 occupiers? They were safe inside the Park and the events 8 in which they were confronted by the OPP were outside the 9 Park boundaries? 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 11 Henderson? I mean this is not -- this is cross- 12 examination. Cross-examination, he's entitled to ask 13 questions. The Witness can answer them anyway he wishes. 14 Agree, not agree or say something else. 15 Yes, Mr. Henderson, what is it? 16 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Well, I take your 17 point on the breadth. When we -- when we talk, I mean, 18 if we're going to use a mediaeval term like "sanctuary" 19 the important thing, surely, is that people know that 20 it's a sanctuary? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I mean 22 if he doesn't know, he'll say he doesn't know, what is a 23 sanctuary. We have to give -- 24 MR. WILLIAM HENDERSON: Fair enough. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- Counsel

1 some degree of latitude in cross-examination. Yes, Mr. 2 Roland? 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: Shall I ask the question 4 again or do you need the question asked again, Mr. Simon 5 or are you ready to answer it? 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: He answered it. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. -- 8 MR. IAN ROLAND: Sorry, I didn't -- I 9 missed the answer then. 10 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, 11 he must ask the question again, because he has two (2) 12 questions simultaneously. That was the problem that I 13 was going to object to. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh. 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: He asked one (1), 16 was it a sanctuary? And then he asked, and then the 17 police didn't enter the Park. Now those are two (2) 18 different questions. If he would ask whichever one he 19 wants to and let Mr. Simon answer and then ask the other 20 one. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fair. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That would be 23 appropriate. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine, 25 Mr. Rosenthal.

1 2 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 3 Q: Well I think I've already asked the 4 question about the police going into the Park. Let me 5 ask you, was -- wasn't it so, Mr. Simon, that the -- the 6 Park was a safe place for the occupiers? 7 A: I don't know about that. Not when 8 we're being surrounded the way we were and as Mr. 9 Scullion pointed out the helicopters -- 10 Q: I see. 11 A: -- hovering about. It's once again, 12 tired of being asked about the OPP entering the Park. I 13 wasn't there all the time and one (1) lawyer already 14 pointed out that she knew of Vince going in there and 15 helicopters being in there. I wasn't around all the 16 time, so. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So I take it 18 he's not agreeing -- 19 THE WITNESS: I still don't know what 20 you're saying. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- it was a 22 sanctuary. 23 MR. IAN ROLAND: He was certainly helped 24 by the interventions it sounds like. 25

1 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 2 Q: All right. Mr. Simon, let me turn to 3 the events of the night of September the 6th. You, in 4 your examination by Mr. Millar, suggested that your 5 memory wasn't terribly accurate and everything happened 6 very quickly and you had difficulty recalling events of 7 September the 6th. 8 You remember that, last week, that you 9 realized that you were having some difficulty recalling? 10 A: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff that's 11 fuzzy from -- 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: -- over ten (10) years ago. 14 Q: Let me just ask you about a few 15 things. First of all, the lighting. And you've told us 16 that there was a spotlight, one (1) spotlight that you 17 recall. 18 A: I said there could have been more -- 19 Q: Yeah. 20 A: -- than one. Two (2), three (3), who 21 knows? 22 Q: And you recall -- or you told us 23 about a fire near the fence? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And I assume that would give some

1 light, would it, into the parking lot? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: There weren't -- there weren't any 4 other sources of light that you recall, were there? 5 A: There could have been. I thought I'd 6 mentioned that there could have been car lights. 7 Q: Right. 8 A: Could have been street lights, who 9 knows? 10 Q: Certainly when the bus and the car 11 travelled out of the Park, there -- there were -- with 12 their headlights on, if their headlights were on, that 13 was a source of light as they -- as they moved along 14 through the sandy parking lot and onto East Parkway? 15 A: Would be. 16 Q: And as they passed, of course, that 17 source of light would then disappear for the area that 18 they passed, wouldn't it? 19 A: I suppose so. 20 Q: Yes. 21 A: I didn't really notice any 22 difference. 23 Q: And -- 24 A: There could have been. 25 Q: -- there weren't any spotlights, were

1 there, illuminating the parking lot or down East Parkway 2 after the car and bus had proceeded out of the Park? 3 Those spotlights then weren't -- weren't illuminating 4 that area, were they? 5 A: I don't know. Like I said, I never 6 really noticed any lack of change in visibility, one (1) 7 way or the other. I... 8 Q: All right. Let me -- let me get your 9 position on East Parkway, because you testified about 10 your position, when you moved from the fence area, I 11 think, near -- north of the turnstile, -- 12 A: Right. 13 Q: -- yes? Out into the sandy parking 14 lot towards East Parkway. And you said that you then 15 stood on the north side of East Parkway near the 16 intersection. And I'm -- we're putting up on the screen, 17 Photograph 220...? Two (2) hyphen twenty (20)? 18 If you could look at that photograph, Mr. 19 Simon, you'll see that there's a number of -- of signs. 20 There's a yield sign, there's another sign to the west of 21 the yield sign, it's a rectangular sign, and then further 22 west there's a speed limit sign of fifty (50) kilometres. 23 Do you see those three (3) signs? 24 A: Yes, I do. 25 Q: Yes. And I want to make it clear

1 where you were standing along that area, that is near 2 which sign, but first of all, as I understand your 3 evidence, whichever location you were standing at, you 4 moved to that location from the sandy parking lot and 5 stood at that location for the events that then occurred 6 before you moved back into the sandy parking lot towards 7 the Park; did you not? 8 That is, you didn't go further west than 9 the location in which you stood? 10 A: That's correct. 11 Q: All right. And that location, I put 12 it to you, was the -- was at the yield sign...? 13 A: My recollection it would have been 14 closer to that square sign that's part white and part 15 brown. 16 Q: Let me see if I can help you with 17 that because you were interviewed by the SIU once, on 18 October 14, 1995, and I believe on two (2) occasions... 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 Q: You said where -- you indicated where 23 you were standing. Let's -- if we could go to -- this is 24 for My Friend's assistance. This is Document 1002001. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is it in the

1 tab of materials, Mr. Millar, that I have? 2 THE WITNESS: It must be under a 3 different number if it -- or of mine, no... 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which 5 number...? 6 THE WITNESS: I don't have that number 7 either for... 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's at Tab 2 of Mr. 12 Simon's book. It's 1002493. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I have it. 14 It's the -- October the 5th. 15 MR. DERRY MILLAR: It's the same 16 document. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And then the 18 14th. Do you have it as well? 19 THE WITNESS: I believe so, I'm not too 20 sure. I had given a couple statements. 21 22 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 23 Q: So we have that. And if you could go 24 to page 16 at the bottom. 25 A: Yeah.

1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: The Witness has the 2 right statement. 3 THE WITNESS: Pardon me? What did you 4 say again..? 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 7 Q: Page 16, please. 8 A: Page 16... 9 Q: At the very bottom, you're asked the 10 question: 11 "And where were you standing at this 12 time?" 13 Over at the top of page 17, your answer: 14 "I was standing in front of the yield 15 sign at the end of Army Camp Road." 16 See that? 17 A: Yeah, I see that. 18 Q: Now that was given -- that interview 19 I gather was given on October the 4, '95, which would 20 have been less than a month and a half after the event. 21 And I -- I gather, Mr. Simon, your recollection then 22 would be better than it is today of these events? 23 A: It would have been better but at the 24 same time, I was still under a lot of stress over events 25 that take -- took place. As you can see in the picture,