1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 December 2nd, 2004 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )    (np)
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )    (np)
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  
  7  Murray Klippenstein ) (np)       The Estate of Dudley 
  8  Vilko Zbogar       )            George and George
  9  Andrew Orkin       )  (np)      Family Group
 10  Basil Alexander    ) (np)       Student-at-Law
 11  
 12  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 13  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 14  
 15  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 16  Kevin Scullion   )   (np)       Aazhoodena (Army Camp)
 17  
 18  William Henderson )   (np)       Kettle Point & Stoney
 19  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 20  
 21  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 22  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 23  Sue Freeborn     )   (np)
 24  Lynette D'Souza  )
 25

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )   (np)       The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (Np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 11  
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  
 15  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 16  Trevor Hinnegan     ) 
 17  
 18  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 19  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 20  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 21  
 22  Ian Roland       )              Ontario Provincial 
 23  Karen Jones      )   (np)       Police Association &
 24  Debra Newell     )   (np)       K. Deane
 25  Ian McGilp       )   (np)

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  
  7  Al J.C. O'Marra  )   (np)       Office of the Chief
  8  Francine Borsanyi )   (np)       Coroner
  9  
 10  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 11  Matthew Horner   )
 12  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 13  
 14  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 15  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 16  
 17  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 18  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 19  Melissa Panjer   )
 20  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 21  
 22  
 23  
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 KEVIN SIMON, Resumed 7 Continued Examination-in-Chief 8 by Mr. Derry Millar 7 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 79 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Vilko Zbogar 132 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Anthony Ross 149 12 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 152 13 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 190 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 207 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-104 Copy of Exhibit 21 from 44 4 the Kenneth Dean trial. 5 P-105-A Two (2) Photographs of peace tree 86 6 planting and graveyard inside 7 Military Base. 8 P-105-B Two (2) Photographs of Peace Tree 91 9 planting and of Melva George at 10 graveyard inside Military Base. 11 P-105-C Two (2) Photographs of a chair 93 12 and crowd of people behind a car. 13 P-105- D Photograph entitled, "Stoney Point 95 14 Press Conference 1993 Shortly after 15 Helicopter Incident". 16 P-106 The Free Press news article entitled 116 17 "Chief Says Council Deserve To Know 18 Burial Remains Found". 19 P-107 News article entitled, "History Of 116 20 The Aboriginal Peoples Shouldn't Be 21 Desecrated". 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon convening at 9:07 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is now in 4 session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden presiding. Please 5 be seated. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning. 9 10 KEVIN SIMON, Resumed 11 12 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: Mr. Simon, at the end of the day, 14 yesterday, we were talking about when Mr. Cecil Bernard 15 George arrived and had brought with him the scanners, you 16 listened to the scanners and you told us what you could 17 recall about what you heard over the scanners and what you 18 did. 19 Now, can you tell us what happened after that? 20 After Mr. Cecil Bernard George brought the scanners, you 21 listened to the scanners, you've told us you looked around to 22 see if you could see people on roofs; what happened next? 23 A: I'm not too sure if it was after or 24 before, I remember there was something that had happened with 25 an incident with a -- it wasn't really an incident, but there

1 was a Suburban had been spotted. There was that main gate 2 that we were talking about earlier where the campers had come 3 into the -- the Park -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- we had our checkpoint there. Later, 6 this Dave -- Dave George -- 7 Q: Yeah? 8 A: -- was one (1) of the people that was 9 there that I'd seen at that point when I'd gone there and 10 they'd spotted this unmarked Suburban-type vehicle. And 11 there was people that had apparently gotten out of there and 12 gone into the bushes out by the A-frame building that we had 13 talked about before. 14 We had gone over and we had searched the area 15 kind of quickly, we never went over a fence or anything, just 16 alongside the road and we had noticed some boot tracks that 17 were fairly large. It appeared to me to be a military-type 18 track, but there was stuff like that had been happening where 19 people were basically seeing things that were kind of odd. 20 Q: And -- 21 A: Like I said, I wasn't too sure if that 22 was before or after Slippery had given those CBs -- 23 Q: Yeah. 24 A: -- or scanners. After that we had gone 25 back -- I'd gone back to where -- in front of the Park store

1 where we had the main -- main fire. 2 Q: Okay. Let me just stop you for a moment. 3 When you -- the Suburban that you saw -- I believe the 4 evidence of Mr. David George was that the -- he saw the -- a 5 vehicle on East Parkway Drive and people get out and go into 6 the -- the lot on the southwest corner of the intersection as 7 shown in Exhibit 103 that's behind you. 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: It's your recollection, you thought they 10 were on Army Camp Road? 11 A: Yeah, it could have been a different 12 incident. Like I say, I'm -- I'm not too sure. Maybe it was 13 the day before or -- I'm not really positive. I just thought 14 I better mention that because I did... 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: But going back to -- like you said, after 17 Slippery had been there with the scanners, he had gone 18 further down East Parkway Drive after that point -- 19 Q: Okay. Let's just -- he brought the 20 scanners. The -- you were all inside the fence in the Park? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And at this point there was a fire in 23 front of the Park store or was it closer to the fence line? 24 A: It was closer to the fence. 25 Q: And can you tell us on Exhibit 103 behind

1 you where the fire was located? 2 A: I would say it was pretty much between 3 where it's marked, "gate" and "turnstile". 4 Q: Yeah? 5 A: Right along the fence. 6 Q: Perhaps you could take one (1) of those 7 black -- the black marker and mark on Exhibit 103 a circle 8 and a one (1) where the fire was. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 13 Q: And at this point in time, was it dark or 14 still light? 15 A: It may have been -- it was dark by that 16 time. 17 Q: And can you describe this fire? Was it a 18 small fire, a big fire, a medium fire? 19 A: It was fairly large. 20 Q: And what was -- can you recall what was 21 on the fire; what was being used to feed it? 22 A: For the most part, we had been using some 23 of the -- that slab wood that they had at the Park store. 24 It's what they sold to the campers for -- for campfires and 25 that.

1 Q: Yes.? 2 A: Could have been a couple of picnic 3 tables. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: I remember some of those older picnic 6 tables had been -- some had been broken up. Others, after a 7 while, they were getting tossed on. I'm not too sure if the 8 fire had gotten that large at that point or if it was 9 afterwards. 10 Q: At some point, were picnic tables put on 11 the fire? 12 A: Yeah, some point. It could have been the 13 day after, even. I'm not sure. 14 Q: And were there any fires that you recall 15 on the evening of September 6th? 16 A: Not right in that immediate area, no. 17 Q: Was there any other fires along the fence 18 line north of -- towards the lake that you recall? 19 A: Not that I recall, no. 20 Q: Yeah. And was the -- what was the 21 lighting like other than the fire? Was -- were the lights on 22 in the Park store or -- 23 A: No. I don't think so. If there was 24 lights from the store it would have been just coming from the 25 inside, so it wouldn't have really made a difference or --

1 lighting over by the fence. 2 Q: Okay. And but -- would -- were there any 3 other lights that you observed at this point in the evening? 4 A: Not really, no. Maybe car lights -- a 5 spotlight or whatever. Other than that -- 6 Q: So, what did Mr. Cecil Bernard George do? 7 A: After we turned on the scanners and did 8 the search around he had gone down East Parkway Drive. There 9 was a -- I'm not too sure who else had gone with him, maybe 10 -- maybe his brothers; I'm not too sure who. 11 Q: But somebody went with him? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: Could have been two (2) or three (3), I'm 15 not too sure, but they had gone down. And we had noticed as 16 he was coming back you could see the, basically, outline of 17 somebody coming down the road. He'd step off to the side of 18 the road and have a -- I guess he was having a look to see 19 what was happening. And as we got closer you could hear him 20 tell us that the police are coming; they were marching down 21 the road. 22 Once he'd gotten to the one (1) point, I 23 guess, right to the intersection, basically, of Army Camp 24 Road and East Parkway Drive, it's -- and he told us, They're 25 right there, light them up.

1 Somebody had a spotlight and shone it and as 2 soon as could -- the spotlight was shone on the -- on the 3 police, he could see them. They were -- they weren't too far 4 at all, they were, maybe -- maybe one (1) driveway down East 5 Parkway Drive, if that. 6 Q: Okay. And when Mr. Cecil Bernard George 7 went down the East Parkway Drive was he carrying anything 8 with him? 9 A: I thought he had -- had a walkie-talkie 10 with him and a walking stick. 11 Q: Okay. And when Cecil Bernard George went 12 down East Parkway Drive, where were you? 13 A: I would have been inside the Park, around 14 by that fire. 15 Q: And the -- were there other people 16 outside in the sandy parking lot? 17 A: There could have been, not too many, 18 though. 19 Q: Okay. And at this point in time, how 20 many people do you recall being in the Park or just outside 21 the Park? How many -- how large was your group? 22 A: Maybe about two (2) dozen at that time. 23 Q: Okay. Then the police -- where were the 24 police when you first saw them? By the -- by that first park 25 -- driveway on -- along East Parkway Drive?

1 A: Somewheres in that area. 2 Q: And the first driveway you're referring 3 to is, I think it's -- sixty-eight forty-two (6842) -- is the 4 number on that driveway? 5 A: Yeah. Somewhere -- maybe even just a 6 little before that. I'm not too sure. 7 Q: And when you first observed the police 8 officers, can you tell us what you saw? 9 A: They were basically shoulder to shoulder 10 straight across the road and few people deep. They were 11 marching. 12 Q: And how were they dressed? 13 A: They were in a full riot -- riot gear. 14 They had their shields and their shields were touching each 15 other as they're -- so it was like a solid line. You could 16 see the reflections off the -- like the plexiglass, off their 17 face shields off their helmets. 18 Q: So they had helmets and face shields. 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And they had shields. Did you see them 21 carrying anything? 22 A: Once they got closer they -- they had 23 their batons and they were using those to beat on their 24 shields. 25 Q: Okay. And can you describe the -- the

1 uniform? 2 A: Looked pretty bulky. I was reading in 3 the papers afterwards it must have been because of all the 4 padding and they must have had the shin guards and all that 5 sort of stuff. But it was basically all black. 6 Q: Did you -- so you couldn't -- they looked 7 bulky but you didn't observe whether they had the shin pads 8 or... 9 A: Not -- no, really, no. 10 Q: So, they -- you observed the police 11 officers on East Parkway Drive. What did the police officers 12 do? 13 A: Once they got into the -- like the 14 parking lot area there, they heard a -- Slippery was 15 basically holding up his hand -- arm to them, telling them to 16 stop and they didn't have to do this and stuff along those 17 lines. That we had a right to be there and stuff like that. 18 As soon as the police had come up to where his 19 position was on the -- coming into the parking lot that's 20 when I seen them -- basically as soon as they got to him they 21 just -- seen a club go up and they clubbed him, he went down 22 and just heard them yell, Punch out, or something like that. 23 They had spread out and basically moved right 24 over, run right over him. So he was behind their police 25 lines and they -- they come up to the fence line.

1 Q: Mr. Simon, before we go on, we've heard 2 from others that the police came into the sandy parking lot, 3 spread out and came up to the fence line or close to the 4 fence line prior to the incident between Mr. Cecil Bernard 5 George and the police. 6 A: It could have happened that way, but my 7 recollect -- my recollection is that they had clubbed him as 8 soon as they come -- come up there. Everything happened so 9 fast. I know that I was -- there was -- that was like the 10 first of the altercation and the fighting that I had seen. 11 I'm sure. I was pretty sure that they had 12 clubbed him before they got to the fence. 13 Q: And the -- so on your recollection, can 14 you point out on Exhibit 103, where Mr. Cecil Bernard George 15 was when you first saw him and the police, when the police 16 grabbed Cecil Bernard George? 17 A: Put a mark on there? 18 Q: Yes, please. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 A: Somewhere in that area. I'm not really 23 entirely sure. It was right on the edge of the -- the 24 pavement. 25 Q: Okay. And could you mark a number 2 on

1 that, please. 2 A: Two (2)? It's not going to... 3 Q: And when they -- how many spotlights were 4 turned on the police from inside the Park? 5 A: I'm not too sure. I thought it was just 6 one (1) but there could have been more. 7 Q: Could have been more? And when the 8 police arrived in the sandy parking lot, did -- what happened 9 to the other people that were outside the sand -- on the 10 sandy parking lot? Did they come back into the Park -- go 11 back into the Park? 12 A: There had been a bit of scuffling there. 13 People -- the ones that were outside -- I may have been out 14 there too, I really don't remember. But there had been a bit 15 of altercation there; people were getting clubbed and 16 swinging back, fighting with the police. 17 As Slippery was getting clubbed there -- 18 didn't really realize that he was getting beaten at that 19 point but people had gone back into the Park. Once we were 20 back in the Park, everybody kind of spread back out along the 21 -- the fence line there and we could have a -- I guess, 22 basically, like a headcount and look around and see if we 23 noticed anybody missing. 24 And we could see those groups -- groups of 25 police officers out on the -- in that area where they'd run

1 into Cecil. They were still in that same area and you could 2 see that they had formed a circle around him and I was sure 3 that there was two (2) others that were getting beaten in the 4 same -- same manner. 5 Q: Pardon me? There were two (2) others 6 that were being beaten -- 7 A: I'd seen three (3) groups of police 8 officers out there and it looked like there was -- Cecil, he 9 -- he was the one that was closest and you could see for 10 sure. I don't know if there was, like, the spotlight on him. 11 There was some -- there was something there, you could see a 12 bit better and you could see him on the ground and the people 13 that were around him. You could see the clubs going up in 14 the air. 15 Q: And -- so that when this happened with 16 Cecil Bernard George, when Cecil Bernard George was first in 17 contact with the police officers, what did he have in his 18 hand? 19 A: I was pretty sure he was still carrying 20 that walking stick and the walkie-talkie. 21 Q: And -- so that the -- as you recall it, 22 the police came into the parking lot, encountered Cecil 23 Bernard George at the -- just at the edge of the parking lot 24 and grabbed Cecil Bernard George at that point? 25 A: Yeah, they -- they had run -- basically

1 ran over him right off the start. It could have been a 2 little bit closer to the -- the fence line than what I drew 3 on that map, but it was out a ways from the fence line where 4 we were. 5 Q: As I anticipate the evidence of Cecil 6 Bernard George will be, Mr. Simon, that the police officers 7 came into the sandy parking lot -- spread out on the sandy 8 parking lot -- Mr. Cecil Bernard George and others went back 9 into the Park, the police came up close to the fence, fell 10 back -- fell back to the other side of the sandy parking lot 11 and then it was after that that Cecil Bernard George went out 12 into the sandy parking lot from the -- inside the Park. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And that's -- 17 A: It may have happened like that, like you 18 said. I do remember, like you said, that they had spread 19 out. It has been a long -- long time. 20 Q: No -- 21 A: Hmm hmm. 22 Q: -- I appreciate that and I'm just -- why 23 I'm trying to point out to you what others have said and what 24 I anticipate Mr. Cecil Bernard George will testify because it 25 has been a long time --

1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: -- and it happened very quickly. I 3 appreciate that. 4 A: I don't know what to say. I -- it very 5 well could have. I know for a fact that there wasn't no 6 altercation before that point where they had run over Cecil 7 Bernard. 8 Q: So, that -- the first altercation, 9 whatever the sequence of events was, was not until after the 10 police and -- and Cecil Bernard George had met each other out 11 in the sandy parking lot; is that correct? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And then Cecil Bernard George was, as you 14 say, grabbed by the police officers and you heard the -- 15 someone yell, Punch out; was that before or after the -- they 16 encountered Cecil Bernard George? 17 A: It would have been before, because they 18 had spread out in -- in their formation and basically made, 19 like, a charge to -- towards everybody else. There was a lot 20 of people that were out -- outside of the Park. 21 Slippery, he had been further out, basically 22 trying to put his hand up and tell them to stop. There was a 23 bit of a scuffle, like you said, and a lot of people went 24 back into the Park, myself included, and we were making a 25 dash through that turnstile. I remember that.

1 Q: So, then from your recollection, after 2 the encounter between Cecil Bernard George and the police, 3 what did you observe happened with Cecil Bernard George? 4 A: He was basically just laying on the 5 ground getting clubbed. 6 Q: And how do you know if he was being 7 clubbed, Mr. Simon? 8 A: You could see the clubs going up over the 9 police officers' heads and going down into -- disappearing 10 into the circle and -- 11 Q: And how many -- 12 A: -- a lot of movement. 13 Q: How many police officers did you observe, 14 Mr. Simon? 15 A: More than half a dozen. 16 Q: And were the -- you said a minute -- a 17 few minutes ago that there were three (3) groups of police 18 officers that you observed? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: And where were the -- can you tell us, 21 firstly on -- point out on Exhibit 103, where the police 22 officers were clubbing -- you thought -- Cecil Bernard 23 George? 24 A: It was basically where I got the number 25 two (2) there and that's where the other groups -- they were

1 all kind of a big area that -- that part of the sandy parking 2 lot. 3 Q: So, the police -- 4 A: May -- maybe even a little bit closer to 5 the Park, like I said before. 6 Q: So, that the police officers were spread 7 out in the entrance -- the western side of the sandy parking 8 lot on the eastern side of the pavement or -- and on the 9 pavement? 10 A: They were spread out. The ones that were 11 with the shields and the clubs, they were spread out closer 12 and those groups where Slippery and those others were being 13 beaten was in behind where the police had spread out. 14 Q: Okay. Let's -- let's take this one (1) 15 step at a time. The police officers with the shields -- 16 where -- can you draw on Exhibit 103, a line where the police 17 officers with the shields were, please? 18 A: At the time that Slippery was being 19 beaten? 20 Q: At the time Slippery was being beaten. 21 A: I would say they were all, basically, 22 around -- 23 Q: Now, we have to -- when you're back 24 there, Mr. Simon, I forgot to ask you to pick up that 25 microphone there.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Microphone is on 2 on the table there. 3 THE WITNESS: That's basically all you 4 wanted, was just a line there -- drawn there -- 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Yeah. 6 THE WITNESS: -- where the police were? 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 9 Q: And -- and that's the police with the 10 shields? 11 A: Yeah. They were in that line and spread 12 out along there. 13 Q: And could you put a number 3 on -- around 14 that. And you observed the police in a line at the area of 15 where you've marked number 3 and the -- these were the police 16 officers with shields? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: And the police officers that you observed 19 back near where you put number two (2), were they dressed -- 20 they were dressed differently than the police officers with 21 the shields or were they? 22 A: They -- it was hard to tell. They all 23 looked the same, but they didn't have the shields, but they 24 had the -- they had their clubs going. You could see those 25 pretty clearly.

1 Q: So, the -- did they have helmets on, the 2 police officers that were around Cecil Bernard George? 3 A: I couldn't really tell. 4 Q: So, you're back in the Park and the -- 5 what did you then do? You said that you were -- 6 A: As we were witnessing -- 7 Q: -- trying to figure out who was -- who 8 was present? 9 A: Yeah, we were -- we had witnesses. It 10 was three (3) groups and people were kind of doing a 11 headcount and we noticed -- we had heard some people saying 12 that that was Slippery out there. And I remember one (1) 13 lady, Gina Johnson, she was yelling that that was her -- her 14 brother out there. 15 And there was just a few seconds, I guess, had 16 passed and she'd started basically yelling that -- that her 17 -- that was her brother, You got to do something, they're -- 18 they're going to kill him. By the looks of what was 19 happening there, it was pretty violent in the way they were 20 clubbing him. 21 Q: Yes? 22 A: Actually, now I'm getting into that, I'm 23 starting to realize that you are correct, that there was a 24 couple of exchanges that they did spread out into their line. 25 Q: That's fine, I think. So, as you --

1 A: But as -- as we had seen Slippery out 2 there and we realized that that was him, that's -- that's 3 when the call to the bus had taken place. People had gone 4 out before that, like I said and there was quite a few people 5 had received quite a few injuries -- clubs. 6 Actually there was quite a bit and I'm 7 starting to remember now, if -- if you'd allow me to go back 8 a bit? 9 Q: Certainly. 10 A: What you had mentioned there about how 11 the police had spread out and come up to the fence, and is 12 right. I remember I was standing beside David George and he 13 had received a number of blows too, at some point along 14 there. 15 That may have been at the same as when 16 Slippery was runned over like that, at the start of his 17 beating. But there was a lot of people that were already 18 injured, as we had been doing that head count and wondering 19 what was going on. 20 And we heard that call from Gina saying that 21 we had to do something and people are already, basically beat 22 up quite a bit and we didn't really know what to do. 23 Q: Okay. Before we go on, Mr. Simon, you 24 said that the people were beat up quite a bit, that there had 25 been an altercation.

1 The -- do you now recall, as you said, that 2 the police came up close to the fence before Cecil Bernard 3 George had an altercation with them? 4 A: They had -- they had spread out in their 5 line, and made a move. But like I said, that was the first, 6 the start of the altercation in my -- of what I witnessed was 7 when Slippery had been run over. 8 Q: Did -- did Mr. Cecil Bernard George go 9 out into the parking lot from the Park when he was -- does 10 that assist you? 11 A: He very well could have. I -- it's -- it 12 is really blurry what happened there. 13 Q: No, I appreciate that and we're simply 14 asking you to try to remember things as you go along and 15 sometimes things will help refresh your memory. 16 But, the -- the first altercation with the 17 police, in you recollection, was after they had grabbed Cecil 18 Bernard George? 19 A: Yeah, pretty much. What happened before 20 is really quite a blur. I don't -- I don't really recall 21 hearing those RCs and so basically, it isn't really helping. 22 Q: Okay. So that, and when you say that 23 people got clubbed, I take it then that members of the group 24 were out when -- were out in the sandy parking lot -- 25 A: Yeah.

1 Q: -- and got into an altercation with the 2 police officers? 3 A: Yeah. The ones with the -- the shields 4 and the clubs had made it past -- come past Slippery, there 5 was others that had been clubbed. 6 Like I said, I was standing beside Dave George 7 and he had taken a step forward, being the taller guy, a lot 8 taller than me, and maybe I was a lot closer to the police 9 and, I had witnessed him take a number of blows from 10 different directions. 11 Q: And was David George out in the sandy 12 parking lot at this time? 13 A: Yeah, I believe so. 14 Q: And so -- and did David George have a 15 stick or a club in his hand? 16 A: Something, some sort of stick. 17 Q: And was he engaging the police officers? 18 Was he hitting at the police officers? 19 A: He had tried but he never -- he never 20 even, from what I seen, he never got the chance, he -- he 21 would raise his arm like he was going to, step and he got hit 22 from all directions -- 23 Q: And that -- 24 A: -- and he stepped back beside and I 25 looked at him and I looked at what we were -- what was facing

1 us. I had -- I had two (2) pieces of firewood, some of the 2 smaller, that slab wood I had mentioned earlier, I had those 3 in my hand and realized they weren't going to do too much. 4 Basically I just threw them at the police. 5 The ones that were in front of me, the first one I'd seen it 6 made contact with the helmet and that officer stumbled back. 7 They had basically closed the gap right back up so I threw 8 the other one. And that's when we basically made the retreat 9 back into the fence -- or through that turnstile back into 10 the Park. 11 Q: And did people -- were people throwing 12 rocks from the fence line at the police officers or stones; 13 do you recall? 14 A: Could have been. 15 Q: And it was then that Cecil Bernard 16 George's sister Gina Johnson, called out, That's my brother. 17 A: Yeah. Once everybody had been back into 18 the Park we were take -- we were witnessing that beating 19 going on and she was the one that had realized that that was 20 her brother. A lot of us didn't know what to do. We already 21 seen what they -- what we were up against so we heard -- we 22 heard somebody yell, Get the bus. 23 And we heard the bus, it was just a matter of 24 seconds and it fired up, it was fairly loud even with all the 25 commotion and a lot of yelling going on. Seen the bus come

1 up and there was a dumpster in the way and the bus being the 2 size of it they didn't really have too much of a problem 3 pushing it out of the way. It kind of pushed it off to the 4 side. 5 Q: Can you point out on Exhibit 103 where 6 the dumpster was and perhaps mark a square where the dumpster 7 was, Mr. Simon, and put the number four (4) beside it? 8 A: All right. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 A: I'm not really too sure if it was in -- 13 inside the fence or not. I know it was right, it was like 14 right in this area. 15 Q: Could you put a number 4 beside -- 16 A: Oh yeah. 17 Q: So, that -- 18 A: It could have been inside the gate too, 19 I'm not too sure. But it got pushed to that side. 20 Q: It was either on the outside or the 21 inside and it got pushed out of the way? 22 A: Yeah. It was right in front -- or right 23 in front of that gate like -- 24 Q: After the bus went through? 25 A: It was off to the side after the bus went

1 through. 2 Q: But it was either on the inside of the 3 gate on the Park side or on the outside? 4 A: Yeah. It was blocking the path through 5 that gate anyway. 6 Q: And was it put there by the occupiers 7 after the occupation of the Park? 8 A: I don't know. It could have been. I -- 9 it could have been there by the MNR too. I don't -- 10 Q: And you then -- the bus -- did you see 11 who was driving the bus? 12 A: No. 13 Q: And so, the bus exited the Park through 14 the gate, pushed the dumpster out of the way, then what 15 happened, Mr. Simon? 16 A: A lot of us followed the bus out. 17 Myself, I was walking on -- it would be the north side of the 18 bus. 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: And basically walked along towards the 21 rear of the bus and followed it out. We headed in the 22 direction over where Slippery had been -- being beaten. As 23 we got -- the police they were -- had formed their group up 24 further back again by that time. And they after -- the 25 fights everybody would be kind of scattering about, they had

1 basically re-grouped and were blocking the path to Slippery 2 so when the bus had made its way -- 3 Q: And when you -- 4 A: -- towards Slippery it was basically 5 forcing those police back and eventually it forced them to 6 split. 7 We lost track of where Slippery was for a 8 while but I did see at one point where they were dragging him 9 away. And the bus basically continued down the road. I 10 guess he had a better view of Slippery and see where they 11 were taking him. 12 Q: And when the bus came out, how fast was 13 the bus travelling? 14 A: It was a walking pace. I walked beside 15 it. 16 Q: And where were the -- you -- you've 17 indicated that the police officers were lined up with Mr. 18 Cecil Bernard George behind them. Can you tell us where on 19 Exhibit 103 the police officers were as you recall? 20 A: They were right in front of where I had 21 marked where they started first run him over there to number 22 two (2). 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: They were -- they basically stayed in the 25 same area where they'd run him over and where they had

1 started the beating of him. They basically just stayed right 2 there -- 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: -- until the point where the bus came 5 out. 6 Q: So -- 7 A: -- the police you're talking were -- 8 would be right... 9 Q: Can you draw a circle where you observed 10 the police at the point when the bus came out and put a 11 number five (5) beside it? Or a line, if they were in a 12 line, Mr. Simon. And how many officers were at the point 13 where number five (5) was? 14 A: That was -- that would have been the main 15 group of the ones with the shields, so there was quite a bit. 16 I think twenty (20), thirty (30). 17 Q: Okay. And -- 18 A: Like I said, I could have been a little 19 closer. It's hard to judge with that map. 20 Q: No, I appreciate that. So, it could have 21 been close -- the police officers could have been either on 22 -- at the edge of the pavement or even on the pavement, is 23 that... 24 A: I think they -- they were definitely off 25 the pavement, in the sandy -- sandy parking lot area. Could

1 have been they were where that sand pile is. That wasn't 2 there at the time. 3 Q: Okay. That sand pile -- I was going to 4 ask you that sand pile -- was the sand pile there on the 5 evening of September 6th? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And there -- 8 A: It's kind of -- that's what I'm saying. 9 They could have been closer, they could have been more where 10 that sand pile -- like, there is a bit of a dune that was 11 there, but it's not that sand pile. 12 Q: Yeah, the sand pile sticks out into the 13 sandy parking lot. There -- there is a -- there was back in 14 1995 a dune around the corner, is that not correct, coming 15 from Army Camp Road, turns east towards the -- the Park? 16 A: Yes. That would have been more of what I 17 was using the gauge on. I was looking at that sand pile. 18 That's why I drew the -- the two (2) and the five (5) a 19 little closer to the pavement. They'd be -- kind of -- 20 trying to situate it with that sand pile, but that sand pile 21 wasn't there, so it would have been a little more into the 22 parking lot area. 23 Q: So, that, probably the number five (5) 24 and the number two (2) should be farther east into the 25 parking lot area?

1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. And do you know when that sand 3 pile was put into the sandy -- was created in the sandy 4 parking lot? 5 A: I believe it was on the morning of the 6 7th. It was after -- after Dudley had been shot and killed. 7 Q: And when you say you believe it was on 8 the 7th, why do believe that and how was it created? 9 A: After word had got out that Dudley had 10 been killed there had a lot of people that showed up, and 11 supporters from different nations and different places. 12 There was a lot of people around. There'd 13 been dumpster and a backhoe used to move some of those cement 14 blocks into the area to form, I guess, like a barricade. 15 Q: Well, perhaps what we'll do is we'll come 16 back to that -- 17 A: Later? 18 Q: -- later. So, that you're with the bus, 19 the bus is coming out, the -- what was the purpose of you -- 20 as you understood it, of the bus coming out into the sandy 21 parking lot? 22 A: To try to put an end to that beating of 23 Slippery and the others. 24 Q: And the -- so, the bus, when the bus 25 approached the police officers the police officers split up?

1 A: Yeah, as it -- as the bus got to their -- 2 to their point where they were, they basically split in two 3 (2), made room for the bus to go through and at one (1) point 4 I could see those groups that were there, they were clubbing 5 Cecil and they basically stopped clubbing for a bit and had 6 started to drag him westward down East Parkway Drive. 7 Q: And do you see where the police officers 8 took Mr. Cecil Bernard George? 9 A: A little later on I had noticed -- I had 10 got another glimpse of -- of him. There was a -- I think it 11 was a paddy wagon, OPP van of some sort, that was parked 12 further down East Parkway Drive, they were heading in that 13 direction. 14 I see him being dragged. There wasn't as much 15 of a beating going on, but I could see that he was still 16 being clubbed as they were dragging him away and the bus was 17 still trying to make it in that direction. 18 There was a lot of people around in that area 19 of the parking lot, some of our own people and a lot of the 20 police. As I followed the bus out, and it made it out onto 21 the -- the paved part -- portion of it, and I basically 22 stopped, I guess it would be right at the end of Army Camp 23 Road. There's a -- a couple of signs there. That is about 24 as far as I went. 25 Q: And perhaps -- just take a moment, Mr.

1 George -- 2 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Simon. 3 THE WITNESS: Simon. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Excuse me, Mr. Simon, I 5 apologize. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: On the screen is a copy of Photo Number 11 13 from Exhibit P-24 and does that -- can -- using that 12 Photograph Number 13, can you point out the signs that you 13 were referring to? 14 A: Yes, there's -- there's a big square 15 sheet of plywood-type thing there; that's a map of the -- the 16 beach area -- different businesses and stuff. I believe I 17 stand just to the right of that, if not in front of it. 18 Q: Yes. And this photograph is a little -- 19 it's Photograph Number 14 from Exhibit P-24 and it shows the 20 sign on the left-hand side; there are three (3) people in 21 front of it. And so you were close to that sign, either to 22 the east side of it or in the front of it? 23 A: Yeah, just a little right of -- of those 24 people, but closer to the sign, too. 25 Q: Yes.

1 A: They were more closer to the pavement 2 there. 3 Q: You were on -- you were -- you were on 4 the side of the road? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And we see the cement block in this 7 photograph near the driveway. It's -- on Exhibit 103, it's 8 driveway eleven-o-two (1102), but that cement brock -- block 9 wasn't there on the evening of September 6th? 10 A: I don't remember it being there, no. 11 Q: Okay. So, you're at this -- is this as 12 -- as far west as you went on the evening of September 6th? 13 A: Myself? Yeah. 14 Q: Yeah. And, so, you arrived there and 15 where was the bus? 16 A: The bus was further down. I had followed 17 it out that far, but I had stopped there because we were 18 getting more -- as the police split up and made room for the 19 bus to go -- go by, a lot of the police had stayed in their 20 positions there to let the bus pass, so that's basically 21 where I had -- I had -- I didn't want to get right into -- 22 into -- into their midst again, so that's where I'd stayed. 23 Q: And did you observe a car come out of the 24 Park -- out of the Park? 25 A: Yeah. That might have been also part of

1 the reason why I had -- I had stepped aside, too, to that 2 spot, I noticed that the car was coming up. 3 Q: And did you go out and -- before the car 4 went out or did -- or did -- how long did -- was it between 5 the bus coming out and the car coming out of the Park? 6 A: The car would have been just, like, right 7 behind it, basically, maybe a car length or two (2). I 8 didn't really see it right off -- right away. I thought it 9 was just the -- the bus. 10 But at some point along there, as I was 11 walking, I noticed that the -- the car was following it out 12 and as I stepped aside I -- I'd watched him go by. The bus 13 had continued, basically, on the pavement and the car, it 14 made it a little -- little further past me to where the 15 police were and that's where he basically did a quick right 16 turn, I guess, towards the lake -- north, and kept forcing 17 those -- those police officers back. 18 The ones on the -- the south side, they'd 19 continued, basically, in a retreat away from us and those 20 ones on the north side were -- there was a fairly large group 21 of them. I guess that's who he spotted and then he turned 22 towards them and started forcing them back towards -- my -- 23 my thought was that he was forcing them away down the -- East 24 Parkway Drive, but they had stayed in that area and just kept 25 backing up towards the ditch.

1 Q: Okay. And the -- did the car have its 2 lights on, that you recall? 3 A: I -- I can't recall. 4 Q: And how fast was the car going when you 5 saw the car? 6 A: It was doing the same as the bus, a 7 walking pace. 8 Q: And can you point out on Exhibit 103, 9 the -- how far west you observed the bus -- how far west it 10 went, the bus, before it stopped? Assuming it was -- it 11 stopped on the -- on this map it may have gone farther west? 12 A: I'm not really too sure on -- it's not -- 13 there was some -- some road signs, somewhere along in here. 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: It was somewhere in that location if it 16 was -- if it was at this driveway or if it was a little bit 17 further, I'm not too sure. 18 Q: Okay. So, that -- 19 A: It looks like a speed -- 20 Q: -- it was either at -- 21 A: -- speed sign or something like that, 22 somewhere in that area of it. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: This is Exhibit Number -- Photograph 3 No. 4, Mr. Simon, from Exhibit P-24, and it's looking east, 4 excuse me, west down East Parkway from the entrance to the 5 sandy parking lot, and does that assist you with -- 6 A: I guess -- 7 Q: -- trying to place where the bus -- how 8 far down the road the bus went? 9 A: Yeah, a bit there. I'd say it was right 10 around that first driveway there. Because that OPP van was 11 just -- it was on the -- the right of the roadway there. And 12 I believe it was right around that first driveway, maybe just 13 a little past, a little closer -- 14 Q: And -- 15 A: -- maybe to the second driveway. 16 Q: -- the first -- the OPP van was on the 17 north side of the road past the first driveway? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And the first driveway that's shown on -- 20 A: It may have even been the second 21 driveway. It was somewhere right in that area of those two 22 (2) driveways. 23 Q: Okay. And the bus went down how far? 24 A: Pretty much right to that van almost. 25 Q: So, it went past the first driveway

1 somewhere between the first and the second driveway? 2 A: Yeah, somewhere in that area. 3 Q: And the first driveway on Exhibit 103 4 is sixty-eight forty-two (6842)? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: So, could you just -- 7 A: Just draw -- 8 Q: -- draw a line, draw at the edge of the 9 map, the back part of the bus, because it doesn't go quite as 10 far as the second, where... 11 A: Put a six (6)? 12 Q: Six (6). And so, the bus went probably a 13 little farther west than that spot, but it's off the map? 14 A: Yeah, somewhere in that area. 15 Q: And the car, did you observe where the 16 car went? 17 A: According to this map, it would have been 18 before that. That driveway you see on that picture there? 19 Q: Yes...? 20 A: Maybe just a little past that, that fifty 21 (50) sign, it was somewhere in that area, between the -- the 22 speed sign where it says fifty (50) and the first driveway. 23 Q: Okay. And could you mark the approximate 24 area that -- on Exhibit 103, where the car stopped. I take 25 it the car turned north and stopped?

1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And then reversed? 3 A: Yeah. Basically right -- put a seven (7) 4 in there? 5 Q: Yes, please. And -- 6 A: That would have been as far as the car 7 had gone, then it did the turn towards the ditch like that, 8 and -- 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: I guess it would have been more of a 11 right angle too. 12 Q: I appreciate that, Mr. Simon. Then what 13 happened? 14 A: As that car was forcing the -- those 15 officers back, and I could see the brake lights going, that's 16 why I said I wasn't too sure if the lights were on or not. I 17 know that there was -- I could see the brake lights for sure. 18 He had stopped and going -- a couple times 19 like that. Once the police had, basically, reached the ditch 20 area, they'd stop and then they'd were starting to club the 21 -- club the car. I had seen a few of them with their weapons 22 out. 23 Q: You could see the -- you saw police 24 officers with their weapons out? 25 A: Yeah.

1 Q: And at this point you were standing by 2 the sign, to the right of the sign that we can see in the 3 right side of Picture Number 4 and Exhibit 24? 4 A: Yeah. Up in that grassy area there. 5 Q: Yes. 6 A: It must have been right at that time when 7 I heard the first shots. And there was -- it started kind of 8 slow, couple of quick pops, the car started to make its 9 retreat coming back, the bus has started to come back and I 10 heard those first shots fired. 11 And then it was just a matter of seconds and 12 there was a whole -- a whole volley of them. You could see 13 the police that were all around the car, either of side of it 14 they were firing. The ones that were further down by the 15 bus, this side of the OPP van you can see it there, there was 16 quite a number of them too were firing. 17 Q: And behind you, Mr. Simon, perhaps you 18 could pick it up and put it up on the -- on the easel is a 19 copy of Exhibit 21 from the Kenneth Dean trial and... 20 A: Is there a trick to your things here? 21 Just take this one off or -- 22 Q: Yes, please. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, Commissioner I would 2 like to ask that that be marked Exhibit 104. I think one-o- 3 four (104) is the next exhibit. 4 THE REGISTRAR: P-104, Your Honour. 5 6 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-104: Copy of Exhibit 21 from the 7 Kenneth Dean trial. 8 9 Q: You testified at the trial of Kenneth 10 Dean? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And do you recall marking up this plan 13 that's behind you? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And the -- what is the significance of -- 16 the first X where it says, KS; is that the approximate area 17 that you were standing? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And the reference to MF is to, I take it, 20 as I understand it, muzzle flashes? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what did those MF's signify? 23 A: Those were the muzzle flashes from the 24 police that I was just explaining. 25 Q: And that's --

1 A: The ones -- the ones on the north side of 2 the road were the ones that were on the car. The ones on the 3 other side were the other group of officers were on the other 4 side of the road. I could see them shooting. 5 Q: And the officers on the south side of the 6 road where you've marked muzzle flash, was that where you 7 first saw the muzzle flashes on the south side of the road? 8 A: I can't really say where I had seen the 9 first muzzle flashes but those would been where I seen the 10 main majority of muzzle flashes as the whole -- they all -- 11 the shots just basically erupted there. There was -- there 12 was a lot all at once. 13 Q: And -- 14 A: So, there was -- there was quite a number 15 of muzzle flashes. Like the ones that were around the car 16 seemed like there must have been maybe close to a dozen 17 officers in that one (1) area that were shooting to the other 18 side of the road, maybe the same. 19 Q: And the officers on the south side of the 20 road, did you observe what they were shooting at? 21 A: It seemed to me it would be in all 22 directions. Some were at the car, some were at the bus, some 23 were back towards the Park. There seemed like they were 24 going in every direction. 25 Q: And at the point where you first saw the

1 muzzle flashes and you first heard the shooting, where was 2 the bus? 3 A: The bus would have been basically right 4 -- almost between those X's in the -- marked by the MF there. 5 Q: And was the bus -- what was the bus 6 doing? 7 A: It was in the process of reversing. It 8 was coming back towards the Park. 9 Q: Okay. Then you were at the point that's 10 marked on Exhibit 104, what did you -- what did you do? 11 A: I was -- I stood there for a bit. I 12 didn't really think that they were -- they were actually 13 shooting. I didn't know what the noise was at first but at 14 one point I remember seeing the dirt was -- had kicked up 15 near my feet and I had looked back at the main crowd of 16 people and I'd seen a lot of them were basically running, 17 ducking and trying to take cover of some sort. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: And I could see that the -- their spots 20 were -- you could see the ground would be getting kicked up 21 around in amongst all of those people. 22 Q: And the people you're referring to were 23 in the sandy parking lot? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: And did you observe -- could you see

1 where they were running to? 2 A: All directions. They were just trying to 3 get away from where they were, take cover. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Mostly back towards the Park. 6 Q: Yes. 7 Q: Once I had seen those, I had realized 8 that they were shooting. Like I said, I'd looked back. A 9 lot of them were -- seemed to me that they were following. I 10 thought that a lot of people were getting shot. 11 You'd seen the -- the car and the bus continue 12 back and I stay in that same location as -- as they'd gone 13 by. And the car was the first one that made it back. It had 14 gone back into the Park before the bus and as the bus had 15 gone by me, that's when I heard somebody yell out that Dudley 16 had been hit, Dudley was shot. 17 At that point, I notice that the police were 18 no longer in the area, the sandy parking lot. They'd been 19 further down as -- maybe as far as where the car had gone. 20 So I'd made my -- they try to move from that 21 spot. I'd made a -- basically started walking towards where 22 I'd heard that Dudley had been shot. I did see a -- 23 basically see him, laying on the ground, the form of somebody 24 laying there. 25 The bus, it was having trouble getting back

1 in. There was a dumpster, it was still kind of in the road. 2 It hit it maybe once or twice, trying to reverse to make it 3 back in. And there was fairly loose sand there, so I guess 4 it was having -- it was unable to push it out of the way like 5 it did when it came out. 6 There was people that were pushing that 7 dumpster out of the way, and I had made my way over to 8 Dudley, that's where -- knocked down, seen that it was Dudley 9 and there was quite a bit of blood around his shirt, on top 10 of his chest area. His shirt was pretty much soaked. 11 Knelt down to him and grabbed his hand like 12 that, basically give him a handshake. And I don't know if I 13 said if he was all right and I had heard him try to say 14 something but I knew he couldn't talk. He was bleeding 15 pretty good, so basically told him he did a good job in 16 fighting out there. 17 So, I think it might have been Joe George and 18 J.T., I think, I'm not too sure, if he had helped carry 19 Dudley back in, that we'd gotten, once the bus had made it -- 20 its way in, we'd followed -- carried Dudley in. 21 And there were people yelling. I hear 22 somebody saying something about get the OPP, get the car and 23 seen the OPP WHO car pull up to -- in front of that gate and 24 the door was open so we put -- put Dudley in the back. 25 J.T. had -- or Kokomo one of them, had gone

1 around to the -- the other side of the car and basically laid 2 him on the back seat and they took off. 3 Q: And if we could just stop for a moment 4 and step back, Mr. Simon. On Exhibit 104, you have marked 5 with an X and you marked at the Deane trial an X and with the 6 initials "D.G." and what did that signify? 7 A: That's where I'd seen Dudley on the 8 ground. 9 Q: And when you saw -- first saw Mr. George, 10 Dudley George, on the ground, was it -- where was the bus? 11 A: Pretty much where that be is for a block 12 -- it's where I'd seen the bus was -- it was heading back 13 into the gate but it kind of back and forth, like I said. It 14 had hit the dumpster a couple of times or once or something. 15 Q: So, that the bus was on the north side of 16 Mr. George? 17 A: Yeah, pretty much north and maybe more 18 westerly. 19 Q: And the -- so that -- did the bus 20 obstruct your view of Mr. George or not? 21 A: Not necessarily. I -- I think I had to 22 walk a little bit around it, but not -- not really. I had 23 pretty much a straight line from where I was standing -- 24 Q: Okay. 25 A: -- to where Dudley was.

1 Q: And did -- when was the last time you saw 2 Cecil Bernard George that evening? 3 A: As the buses were making their way down 4 East Parkway Drive. I wasn't -- I didn't know if it was 5 Slippery or not, but I'd seen somebody being dragged, so -- I 6 lost track of him somewhere as the bus was making -- going 7 past where I had stopped in front of that sign. 8 Q: And were you able to see how the person 9 was being dragged? 10 A: He was being dragged. I don't know. I 11 just seen -- there was a couple of guys in front of him, he 12 was on the ground behind, and there was a couple of guys that 13 were basically following him and they're still getting 14 clubbed. 15 Q: And did you observe -- could you observe 16 the person on the ground and what the person on the ground 17 was doing? 18 A: He wasn't -- wasn't moving, he was just 19 getting dragged. 20 Q: Okay. And during this period of time, on 21 September 6th, did you see any guns in the hands of the 22 occupiers? 23 A: No. 24 Q: And on September 6th, during the day, had 25 -- when you were there, did you see any guns in the hands of

1 the occupiers? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And did you see any muzzle flashes coming 4 from the Park? 5 A: No. 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 10 Q: How long do you think the bus -- can you 11 recall how long the bus and the car were out -- outside the 12 Park? 13 A: I didn't have no watch or anything, but 14 it seemed like just a matter of seconds. It was a very short 15 time. 16 Q: And can you recall how long the whole 17 confrontation with the police was from the time they came 18 down the Park -- East Parkway to the time they left? And you 19 were back in the Park with Mr. George? 20 A: Just a matter of minutes. It could have 21 been, like, maybe two (2) minutes at the top, I don't know. 22 It was -- like I said, I didn't have a watch. It was -- and 23 it happened so quick. It seemed like it was a lot longer. 24 There was so much that had happened all at once, but it was 25 very, very quick.

1 Q: Okay. And at what point did the shooting 2 stop? 3 A: Right around the time when I'd heard that 4 Dudley had been hit, maybe just -- just before. I guess it 5 would have been just before, because it was quiet enough 6 where I was able to hear across the parking lot, but like I 7 said, the shooting that took place, it was basically all at 8 once. It sounded to me like -- like they had all shot and 9 then reloaded and then shot again and then reloaded a second 10 time. 11 Q: And -- 12 Q: But it was all just right quick. It 13 was -- 14 Q: And did you hear any commands from -- or 15 the police say anything? 16 A: Not -- not really, no. 17 Q: Okay. And the -- when you were back in 18 the Park, did you see Stacey George? 19 A: After everything taken place and they had 20 taken Dudley, yes. 21 Q: And what was Stacey George doing? 22 A: There was actually quite a few were still 23 yelling. Somebody had a spotlight out and we could see the 24 -- the police. They were still out on East Parkway Drive, 25 maybe down around where I'd said the -- that the OPP van

1 had been. 2 I'd seen the -- seen them guys out -- out in 3 front -- it appeared like -- I don't know if they were coming 4 out of the bushes or what, but you could see that they were 5 holding their guns kind of -- they had different -- different 6 guns from what the other ones that I'd seen shooting. They 7 were the ones that were in front and you could see the other 8 officers in behind, but they were -- there was -- they were 9 facing us, but making a retreat and quiet a few of us had 10 started yelling, myself included, and that's where I'd seen 11 Stacey. 12 He was out there, basically, just out on the 13 -- the pavement part yelling, calling them murderers and 14 stuff like that. 15 Q: And what, if anything, did you do when 16 you saw Mr. George -- Stacey George -- out in -- by the 17 pavement? 18 A: I had gone out beside him there and I was 19 yelling quite bit too, but I don't know -- 20 Q: Did you tell him to go back into the 21 Park? 22 A: Yeah, I guess, something -- I'm not 23 really too sure. 24 Q: Okay. And when the -- as you saw the 25 police officers move west on East Parkway Drive, the -- you

1 say that you saw some police officers with a different type 2 of gun -- 3 A: Yeah, it appeared -- 4 Q: -- and were dressed differently? 5 A: -- appeared different. They were -- the 6 ones that were out in front, they'd have their hands off to 7 the side as if they were carrying something pointing down at 8 the ground and there was -- there was enough to form a line 9 across the road in front of the -- the other officers. 10 Q: And do you know how many there were? 11 Okay. 12 A: Half dozen or a dozen, maybe. There 13 wasn't -- wasn't as many of those -- those officers that I'd 14 witness there, they were spread out a little bit more. Like, 15 the ones that came marching down with the clubs, they were -- 16 they were shoulder-to-shoulder. Their -- their shields were 17 basically touching, if not overlapping. 18 Q: So these -- 19 A: Those -- those officers are spread all 20 out more. 21 Q: And the officers you saw in front of the 22 group as they were retreating, facing towards you, did they 23 have shields and helmets? 24 A: No, it just looked to me like they were 25 -- they were carrying, I don't know, a gun or something.

1 Q: And the -- were -- did you see the guns 2 that were being used by the police officers who were shooting 3 on the road when you observed the police officers shooting? 4 A: The ones that I'd seen where I got the 5 muzzle flashes marked, those ones were -- they were the 6 handguns that you carry on your holsters. 7 Q: Those were handguns? Okay. Thank you. 8 And after you were back in the Park, after the police 9 officers retreated down East Parkway Drive, you went back in 10 the Park. What did you do? 11 I take it you went back in the Park? 12 A: Yeah. After Dudley -- they had taken 13 Dudley away I think the first thing I did, or right around -- 14 right around that time, I'd remembered there was some pay 15 phones over by the Park store. I'd gone over there. I 16 believe that's where I'd seen Gina Johnson again. 17 She was on the phone. She was saying 18 something about it was -- had been cut. She was talking to 19 somebody and it had been cut and she had dialled up another 20 number and was talking to somebody there. That might have 21 been after I'd gone out on the road with -- with -- we call 22 him Burger, Stacey. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: We'd come back in and maybe that's when 25 I'd gone over. It was right -- right quick there when I'd

1 gone over to the phone. Gina had dialled up the news agency 2 of some sort and they had heard somebody say, Hello, and 3 identify themselves and as soon as I started to talk, I heard 4 this -- this strange noise on the -- on the phone and it was 5 dead. So I, basically hung it up and tried again and they 6 got the buzzer noise again, sounded like it was working so I 7 tried again. 8 Q: You tried or Gina tried? 9 A: I tried. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: But by that time I didn't know any -- any 12 other numbers. I was trying to think and I remember my -- my 13 uncle's number in Kettle Point, so I'd called him. Once 14 again, it rang a couple of times and it just went dead and 15 there was no sound, no nothing, so I gave up on that and I 16 went back over towards where the -- the fire was and there 17 was a few people that were still around that were yelling. I 18 think I went back out on the road again. 19 By that time, the police were nowhere to be 20 seen. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: They were gone. 23 Q: And then what happened? What did you do? 24 A: I just didn't know what to do. I just 25 stayed there. I didn't have no vehicle there. I went and

1 sat down on -- off to the side. There is a hill right about 2 where it says, "Ipperwash Provincial Park" -- 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: -- on -- on your map there. And there's 5 a bit of a hill there, I guess, gravel or whatever from the 6 parking lot. And I just basically sat on that and just tried 7 to -- thought about what was -- what had happened there and 8 tried to think about what I could do to -- to basically help 9 or change things or figure out what happened. I didn't 10 know -- 11 Q: And -- 12 A: -- what to think. 13 Q: Were you in the Park -- how long did you 14 stay in the Park? 15 A: I stayed there for quite a while, early 16 morning hours. Sometime during that time that I was sitting 17 on that hill there, we had been told that Dudley was dead, 18 that he'd made it to the hospital and then was told that he 19 didn't make it. 20 Heard a lot more yelling and stuff and I just 21 sat there for a while longer, maybe a couple of hours, I 22 don't know. Eventually somebody offered us a ride. Somebody 23 who'd come over asked if I was all right. I said, Yeah. 24 Just a lot of people were like, basically, 25 checking each other and a lot of people were injured, got

1 clubbed pretty good. Checking to see if people were shot. I 2 had heard there'd been a couple of people were shot. 3 By the time, I don't know, maybe -- maybe 5:00 4 -- 5:00 ish, somebody had offered me a ride out. And things 5 had calmed down a bit by then. 6 Q: And after -- when you were in the Park 7 after Mr. Dudley George had been shot, and the police had 8 left, approximately how many people in the Park in the 9 morning of September -- early -- 10 A: After the police had left, there -- 11 Q: Yeah. 12 A: -- was maybe a dozen. 13 Q: And at some point was the Park store and 14 the gate house burned? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And how did that come about? 17 A: After -- after we learned that Dudley had 18 -- had actually died, like I said, there was a lot -- a lot 19 more yelling. People were going out on the road. Heard a 20 lot of yelling inside the Park and just heard people say 21 Burn, burn that building. 22 And the next thing I know, I went around to 23 look and you could see that it was -- it was already in 24 flames. 25 Q: So, that -- did you participate in

1 starting the fire? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And did you see what was used to start 4 the fire, Mr. Simon? 5 A: No. I heard there was some gas or 6 something. I don't know. 7 Q: And did you see anyone with Molotov 8 cocktails? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Do you know what a Molotov cocktail is? 11 A: Yeah. When you have a bottle filled with 12 gas. 13 Q: With a rag in the top? 14 A: Yeah. 15 Q: And so you stayed in the Park until the 16 early morning and what do you -- you got a ride back to the 17 built up area? 18 A: Yeah, somebody had given me a ride. I 19 don't recall -- give me a ride up to the -- the main gate at 20 the barracks. People had been starting to show up. I 21 remember seeing Bonnie there again. 22 She had been there asking to get the -- take 23 out -- offering to take out a lot of children -- women and 24 children. I was one of the people that spoke up to say, 25 Where are you going to take them? You going to go out there

1 into the cops? They're the ones that are killing people. 2 And I also heard at that time that my -- my 3 mother and my grandma were missing. I'd heard -- there was 4 quite a few rumours going around. We'd heard that Slippery 5 had been shot after he had -- was arrested. They were saying 6 that he had been shot in the head while he was handcuffed and 7 all kinds of things were being said. 8 We didn't really know what to think at that 9 time. I kind of knew that a lot of the stuff was just 10 exaggeration or rumours or whatever, that it wasn't -- it 11 wasn't true or it couldn't be true. 12 We stayed there for a while and I guess -- and 13 didn't know what to do so I decided the best thing was I go 14 try to rest seeing as it was getting morning time. I had 15 gone over to the barracks where my cousin was staying at the 16 time. I must have crashed out for about two (2) hours. 17 Q: And you cousin was who? 18 A: Warren George. 19 Q: Yes? 20 A: After I'd woken up -- I guess part of the 21 reason it had helped me sleep was that I had asked, 22 basically, asked the Creator that we be shown some support 23 and people would come. When I woke up there was quite a -- 24 quite a number of people. 25 I'd say easily a thousand (1,000) that being

1 around, already gathered around that gatehouse and more had 2 come down the road from Kettle Point direction and there was 3 -- there was people everywhere that were basically supporting 4 what -- what I had asked for. 5 Q: Okay. And when you woke up did you -- 6 the people were -- were in the built-up area, they were in 7 the built-up area of the army camp? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Okay. And so -- that you did not see 10 them come down the road, the first group? 11 A: Not the first group, no. 12 Q: Okay. And the -- can you tell us who -- 13 did you see who was driving the car when the car came out of 14 the Park on the evening of September 6th? 15 A: I couldn't see, no. 16 Q: And did you recognize the car, whose car 17 it was? 18 A: Sort of, yeah. I recognized -- kind of 19 recognized it. It was Warren's. 20 Q: When did you learn who the driver of the 21 car and the bus were? 22 A: It would have been quite a while after. 23 Maybe about a week had passed. 24 Q: And on the morning of the 7th, what did 25 you do -- the large group of people were -- supporters were

1 in the built-up area; what did you do after you got up? You 2 met with these -- the people? 3 A: I had walked around. They had had the 4 bus up there, the car, they were showing them off to the 5 different reporters, people were taking pictures and I just 6 kind of roamed around and I was kind of in a daze. Didn't 7 really know what was going on. 8 Q: When did you -- when did you find out 9 what had happened to your mother and your grandmother? 10 A: It could have been later that day, I'm 11 not too sure. 12 Q: Okay. And did you go down to the Park 13 the morning of the 7th? 14 A: Not right away. It might have been 15 closer to noon. 16 Q: And when you went down to the Park, what 17 was happening in the Park? 18 A: They had already had the barricade set up 19 where they were talking about the sand pile and the blocks 20 and stuff. There was quite a number of people down there -- 21 Q: And who were the people -- where was the 22 barricade? The barricade was in the sandy parking lot? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And did you know -- who were the people 25 by the barricade?

1 A: There was all sorts of people. I 2 recognized a few people, some of them from different reserves 3 and that but, you know, there was a lot of people. I 4 recognized some and some I didn't. 5 Q: Okay. And were there any of the -- of 6 the Stony -- people from Stony Point in the Stony -- sandy 7 parking lot when you were there? 8 A: Yeah. There was people out and -- some 9 that were -- were there the night before and I don't know, 10 the majority of people were ones that had just come in that 11 morning. 12 Q: And -- if I could see for a moment -- 13 Exhibit P-68, please. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 A: When you mentioned about when I found out 18 who was driving the two vehicles, it was the bus that I 19 hadn't really found out for like, quite a while, maybe a week 20 or whatever. 21 I had suspected right away, like that I was 22 saying, that next morning when they were photographing the -- 23 the car and the bus and I seen the car and realized that was 24 Warren's car, and basically knew it was -- was him that was 25 driving.

1 Q: Okay. 2 A: But I wasn't too sure, I never asked him. 3 Q: Okay. The -- now, did you go down to the 4 -- on East Parkway Drive farther west, there's a parking lot 5 that's the Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot; are you 6 familiar with that parking lot? 7 A: Down East Park -- East Parkway Drive? 8 Yeah. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And did you go down to that parking lot 12 on the morning or during the day on September 7th? 13 A: No, I don't think so. 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: And I'm going to show you a video, it's 16 Exhibit P-68, and what I want to show you actually, is the -- 17 the sandy parking lot taken from East Parkway Drive, and then 18 ask you a couple of questions about what you will see on the 19 -- in the parking lot. 20 21 (VIDEO PLAYING) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 24 Q: You see, Mr. Simon, this, it looks like a 25 barricade being constructed, at the end of East Parkway

1 Drive, on the sandy parking lot. Is that the barricade 2 you're referring to? 3 A: Yeah, it would be the area that -- I 4 don't know what date that was -- a couple days later. 5 Q: And the barricade -- are you -- the 6 barricade that you referred to on September 7th, can you 7 describe that, or are you thinking of the barricade on 8 September 9th? 9 A: I was probably thinking of this on the 10 9th. 11 Q: And can you tell me, was there a fire 12 built that you're aware of, either in the sandy parking lot 13 or on the pavement at the edge of the sandy parking lot? 14 A: There had been one lit on the -- on the 15 pavement of East Parkway Drive. Q: And -- 16 A: People are saying that that was where 17 Dudley had been shot, but I didn't -- I didn't think that was 18 correct, because I never seen -- seen him that far and I 19 never really seen anybody go that far, except for the -- the 20 bus. 21 Q: And the -- do you know when the fire was 22 built? 23 A: I thought it was the next morning, but it 24 could have been a couple days later, like this barricade too, 25 I don't know.

1 Q: well, perhaps I could show you 2 Exhibit P-99 for a moment. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: Did you see the fire burning, Mr. Simon? 7 A: If it's the same fire, that one that's on 8 East Parkway Drive, yes. 9 Q: Okay. 10 11 (VIDEO PLAYING) 12 13 MR. DERRY MILLAR: A little technical 14 problems here, Commissioner. Perhaps we could take the 15 morning break and -- 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 MR. DERRY MILLAR: -- and I'll get this set 18 up. We'll just take a short break, Mr. Simon. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's a good 20 idea. Let's take a fifteen (15) minute break. 21 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess for 22 fifteen (15) minutes. 23 24 --- Upon recessing at 10:34 a.m. 25 --- Upon resuming at 10:53 a.m.

1 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now resumed. 2 Please be seated. 3 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, we have on 4 the screen, the part of the -- the video tape that was taken 5 on the, I believe it was on September 8th. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 8 Q: And you'll see the fire, Mr. Simon, on 9 the road, and do you got -- was that a fire that was built 10 after the death of Mr. George? 11 A: Yes it was. 12 Q: And that was the fire that was, as you 13 told us before the break, built -- can you -- do you know 14 when it was built? 15 A: Like I said, I thought it was on the 7th 16 but I'm not too sure. 17 Q: Okay. And the -- do you know who built 18 the fire? 19 A: No I don't. 20 Q: And the fire you told us, was built 21 because someone had found some blood on the road? 22 A: Yeah, that's what I had heard. People 23 had thought that's where Dudley had been shot, but I didn't 24 -- I didn't think so, but... 25 Q: You didn't -- you were standing when the

1 shots were fired, as you -- 2 A: And Dudley was quite a ways away from -- 3 from where that fire is, or was. 4 Q: And missed -- when you -- you see -- when 5 you were -- when you were out and the shots started to be 6 fired, as I understand it, you were, on Exhibit 104, where 7 it's marked on Exhibit 104, which is behind you -- the -- on 8 the lower one (1) where it says, "Kevin Simon by the sign"? 9 A: Yeah. 10 Q: And the area that you were standing, if 11 you look at Exhibit 24, Picture 4 was by the sign that's on 12 the right-hand side, you were on the west side of that and we 13 are now looking east, and you can see the spot, I think, on 14 this photo, where the fire was, there's a black mark. Do you 15 see that on the -- on the pavement? 16 Is that where the fire was? 17 A: I believe so, yes. 18 Q: And did you see Mr. Dudley George between 19 where you were standing and that part of the pavement that -- 20 where the fire was, at any time on the evening of September 21 6th? 22 A: No I didn't. 23 Q: And when you saw Mr. Dudley George, he 24 was in the parking lot? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: In the sandy parking lot? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And you saw him over where you've marked 4 on Exhibit 104? 5 A: Yeah. Where D.G. is on the one (1) map. 6 Q: And one question that I forgot to ask 7 you: When the confrontation started with the police, you 8 were standing on the inside of the park? 9 A: It could have been on the outside, it 10 would have been right close to that fence, either if I was 11 inside or outside, I -- 12 Q: And did you go -- and you went -- 13 A: -- I may have been on the outside, 14 because I remember rushing to get through that turnstile at 15 one (1) point. 16 Q: Okay. And then when you went -- when you 17 were on the inside of the fence, the Park side of the fence, 18 can you tell me where you were standing? 19 A: I would have been just north of that 20 turnstile. 21 Q: Okay. Could you perhaps put an X and the 22 number eight (8), I think it is, where you -- where you were 23 standing, on Exhibit 103. 24 And can you put a little X -- oh, you've just 25 marked where you were standing with the eight (8), thank you.

1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And on the morning of the 7th, or during 3 the day on the 7th, when you went back to the Park, were 4 there people conducting ceremonies in the Park? 5 A: Yeah, there was various people around. 6 There was some up in the barracks area too. I'm not too sure 7 if it was the morning -- the morning of the 7th, but there 8 had been a lot of -- I remembered after watching that -- I 9 flipped through that tape there before break and seen Ovid 10 Mercredi and other leaders. 11 There was quite a bit of them had come into 12 the barracks area, and held quite a large meeting inside the 13 -- the drill hall, at the end of the parade square. 14 Q: That was on September 7th? 15 A: I had thought it was on the 7th, I could 16 be mistaken again though. I don't know -- they were there 17 basically to try to calm people down. A lot of people didn't 18 react nicely to them, myself included. I didn't particularly 19 think they were being of any help after the way that we had 20 been talked about before this whole incident had began. 21 Our occupation of the Military Base; we had 22 been called down by chief of Kettle Point, called squatters, 23 not representatives of his nation, so a lot of people didn't 24 take too nicely being told, basically, what to do by other 25 elected officials, too. So, I don't really know what to say

1 about that. 2 But there was others on -- that they had 3 mentioned; Bruce Elijah and others like himself that are well 4 known pipe carriers. They were -- people like him were in 5 the Park. And basically, like you said, conducting 6 ceremonies, to try to calm people down. 7 I believe that's when that fire was lit that 8 we were talking about on East Parkway Drive; various stuff 9 like that. 10 Q: And Mr. Elijah is -- Bruce Elijah's from 11 Oneida? 12 A: I believe so, yes. 13 Q: And had you met Mr. Elijah before? I 14 take it you saw him on the September 7th or September 8th? 15 A: Somewhere around that time, yes. I'd 16 seen him before, too. Him and Bob Antone were pretty well 17 known for their role in diffusing the tensions at Oka when 18 that crisis was going on. 19 I believe they -- they were very good at what 20 -- what they do. They apparently done the same when they 21 came to Ipperwash, to the Park down there. 22 Q: And did -- were Mr. Elijah, Bruce Elijah 23 and Mr. Antone, Mr. Robert Antone, were they -- did you -- 24 were they in the Army camp prior to September 4th, after the 25 takeover on July 29th, to your knowledge?

1 A: I don't recall them coming down. 2 Q: And did you meet Mr. Leyton Elijah at 3 some point? Do you know Mr. Leyton Elijah? 4 A: I know him. I'm not too sure when I 5 first met him though. 6 Q: And did -- did he come to the -- to the 7 -- to Stony Point after the death of Mr. George? 8 A: I believe so. 9 Q: And do you know what his role was? 10 A: He was -- his role was as a 11 representative of the peacekeepers from Oneida. They're 12 instrumental in talking with the police, also with Bruce 13 Elijah and Bob Antone. 14 Leyton Elijah had worked in that role before 15 for his own reserve and, I guess, other places where it -- 16 he's familiar with processes of talking with the police and 17 setting up an agreement on -- basically to keep the peace so 18 there wouldn't be more violence. 19 Q: And the Oneida peacekeepers; what -- can 20 you tell me what your understanding of their role is? 21 A: They were -- my understanding is that 22 they -- were to help, basically, police, the reserve. Like I 23 said, a lot of tensions had been built up on other reserves 24 before; dealings with police aren't exactly known to be 25 friendly, I guess.

1 Their role is -- was basically to help do the 2 job of police, and make sure that dangerous criminal 3 activities and stuff like wasn't happening, to help keep the 4 peace, stuff like that. 5 Q: Okay. And the -- we saw a clip of P-68, 6 that video that showed the blockade that was being built on 7 September 9th. Do you know how long that blockade remained 8 in the sandy parking lot? 9 A: It was there for quite a while. I don't 10 really recall, though. 11 Q: And the -- we talked earlier a bit about 12 the sand pile. And did you see the sand pile being built in 13 the sandy parking lot? 14 A: No, I didn't. 15 Q: And do you -- did you see it at some 16 point after it had been created? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: When did you first see it? Do you 19 recall? 20 A: I don't recall. 21 Q: And the cement blocks that are marked on 22 Exhibit P-103 and we saw on one of the photographs, they were 23 not there on the night of September 6th as I understand your 24 evidence? 25 A: No, they weren't.

1 Q: Do you know when they were put there? 2 A: Like I said before, I had thought it was 3 on the 7th, but I could be wrong. 4 Q: Okay. Thank you. Now, before I finish, 5 Mr. Simon, I would like to ask you what, in your view, could 6 be done to prevent -- to have prevented the death of Mr. 7 George and the confrontation on September the 6th? 8 A: That's a pretty tough question. I'd say 9 for starters, there be a lot more education in -- and the 10 schooling about our history. I know from personal 11 experiences being raised on different schools -- went to was 12 -- there was never any -- any formal way of learning about 13 our history as natives, different stuff that our people have 14 helped -- helped with the building of this nation here, of 15 Canada, protecting it. 16 There's reasons why there's treaties. There's 17 reasons why we have rights that we have and a lot of that 18 stuff is neglected to be taught. And a lot of people, they 19 -- they don't understand that. 20 And I believe that that's why we have so many 21 -- so many problems with people that I would call rednecks, 22 coming around and call us racist -- racist names and are 23 basically mad because we have these different rights. They 24 don't understand why we have those rights and freedoms. So, 25 I'd say that would be one (1) start.

1 Q: So, education would be an important -- a 2 general education of -- in the schools and elsewhere is an 3 important part of trying to get people to understand their 4 history? 5 A: Yeah, I'd believe so. 6 Q: Yes. Anything else? 7 A: I believe that with education, people 8 would start realizing that we're not so farfetched in our -- 9 our statements when we talk about our -- our rights and 10 freedoms. 11 And we wouldn't have such build-ups like what 12 happened at the Park there in September if people had gone 13 back and instead of bringing in police with all of these guns 14 and riot squads and everything, if they would have had a 15 different way of dealing with land claim issues and other 16 issues as well, I believe that that also would help diffuse 17 -- if there was a way of actually showing that there's 18 progress and an honest belief that they're trying to change 19 things. 20 As it was, we felt very abused and neglected 21 with our lands there. They always held the claim that the 22 land would be returned after the war and then it was -- after 23 it was no longer needed and then after it was cleaned up and, 24 you know, all this stuff never happened and it would be still 25 going on today.

1 What we did, going in, there is something I 2 wouldn't -- wouldn't recommend to anybody. It's a hardship 3 to live through something like that. It would be living 4 without no hydro, no water. 5 You'd be called all these different names in 6 the paper and people pulling up on the highway and coming 7 onto our beach attacking us, damaging our property. Stuff 8 like that, I believe wouldn't happen with -- with that type 9 of education and recognition of -- of our rights and why we 10 have such rights. 11 Q: Is there anything else you would like to 12 add, Mr. Simon? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 A: I know there's a lot -- lot of other 17 things that could be done to help avoid violence like that, 18 but I'm really not a very eloquent speaker, I guess, to be 19 able to say -- and I don't really have many years as a lot of 20 people to be able to talk about such things, but -- 21 Q: Well, you can tell us what you think and 22 what you believe. 23 A: -- I believe -- all right. 24 Q: I'm asking you to do that, so -- 25 A: I believe that the education is the

1 biggest thing -- a good start. Other than that, just go from 2 there, I guess, and change things. 3 Q: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Simon. 4 A: I have one more thing I wanted to bring 5 up. 6 Q: Yes? 7 A: What we were talking about on the 7th 8 there, you were saying that people had marched down East 9 Parkway. I had gone down there later that night to see for 10 myself what was down there. They were talking about these 11 ambulances that were around to help our people and stuff like 12 that. 13 What I'd witnessed there, the St. John 14 Ambulance, yeah, they were there, when I'd gone inside it 15 wasn't no ambulance, it was full of computer stuff. It was 16 like a command centre for the police. It wasn't there for 17 first aid. 18 Q: And the -- did you go in -- we -- can you 19 describe the vehicles that you went into on the evening of 20 September 7th? 21 A: The one, it was a trailer, like a 5th 22 wheel trailer. It was marked St. John Ambulance. This was a 23 van. It was also marked as an ambulance. 24 Q: Okay. Perhaps what I'll do, Mr. Simon, 25 is just show you an extract again from Exhibit P-68.

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And is that the -- 4 A: That's the one. 5 Q: -- the trailer, the 5th wheel trailer you 6 referred to? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And did you go inside that trailer? 9 A: Yes, I did. And I had a look inside. 10 And that's where I seen all that equipment. And there was 11 nothing that I seen that resembled anything of first aid 12 equipment or anything that would help with injuries. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And was this the second vehicle that you 17 mentioned? 18 A: Yeah I'd seen that but the doors and 19 stuff were still locked when I'd been there. 20 Q: And did you look through the window? 21 A: I don't know. I tried, yeah. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 Q: And were you able to look -- the 5th 25 wheel trailer, was the doors open when you were there --

1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: --- and you were able to look inside it? 3 A: Yeah. 4 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Those are my questions, 5 Commissioner. I think that as Mr. Roland raised yesterday, 6 Mr. Rosenthal may have a few questions and then we'll start 7 the cross-examinations and perhaps we'll have Mr. Rosenthal 8 and then you can canvas for cross-examinations. And Mr. 9 Rosenthal wishes to raise some issues that had not been 10 raised by Commission Counsel. 11 And then as discussed yesterday, he will have 12 the opportunity to re-examine after everyone cross-examines. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Should we canvas 14 to see who's going to cross-examine now, or wait until after 15 Mr. Rosenthal's. 16 MR. DERRY MILLAR: I suggest we wait until 17 after Mr. Rosenthal. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Until after Mr. 19 Rosenthal. Okay. 20 Good morning. 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you. Good 22 morning, Mr. Commissioner. 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 25 Q: Good morning, Kevin.

1 A: Good day. 2 Q: You seem to wear interesting T-shirts. 3 The one (1) today, it says: Aboriginal Title is Sovereignty. 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Is that correct? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I -- I don't 7 know why that's necessary. 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, I wanted to ask 9 him about the T-shirt that he wore yesterday. Some people 10 may have noticed the picture on that T-shirt, Mr. 11 Commissioner, and I wanted to ask him about it. And -- thank 12 you. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't know. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 16 17 Q: There was a picture of a person on the 18 front of your T-shirt yesterday; could you tell us who that 19 person is? 20 A: It is a picture of Dudley. It was a 21 picture he had taken himself, sometime before his death. 22 Q: Thank you. Now, we've heard a fair 23 amounts of evidence about the lands that constituted the 24 lands of the Stony Point First Nation, beginning with a 25 Treaty in 1827 and then so on. What is, briefly, your

1 understanding as to what the traditional lands of the Stony 2 Point First Nation were? 3 A: My belief is that they're a lot larger 4 than just this Ipperwash Military Reserve and Ipperwash 5 Provincial Park. As you're going through the history 6 documents that were presented, you might realize that we were 7 referred to as the River Aux Sable Band at one (1) time. 8 There is an article in there from when they 9 were canvassing the reserves to -- they tried to appropriate 10 some more of it. There -- there was a letter from a, I 11 believe, it's from a Member of the Walpole Island First 12 Nation. They were stating got to take the -- the land from 13 those guys at the -- the mouth of the Aux Sable. And -- and 14 we look on the map, the mouth of the Aux Sable, that's at 15 Grand Bend. 16 From what my grandpa had told me, that's -- 17 that also is part of our Reserve and however they had taken 18 it. They had taken it piece by piece and that Military 19 Reserve was the last of it to be taken. 20 Q: So, it's your understanding that the 21 lands promised in the 1827 Treaty are larger than the lands 22 that we've -- that are pictured as the Stony Point Reserve in 23 the documents we've seen? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Now, we've heard that you and your fellow

1 Stony Pointers began to reoccupy the Army Camp in 1993 and 2 then in 1995 extended that occupation to Ipperwash Provincial 3 Park. What portion of the lands that you indicate were Stony 4 Point First Nation lands, did the occupiers intend to occupy? 5 A: We were just intending to -- what we had 6 taken there is to deal with the Government, Government lands 7 that push -- that those lands be either shut down, like with 8 the Parks. The Government is making money off of our land at 9 our expense. 10 They were supposed to be holding that, Crown 11 lands, or whatever they want to call it, they were holding 12 that in trust, on our behalf and as it turned out, at the 13 time when we did occupy it, we weren't allowed to be on -- on 14 these lands, our own. 15 So, that was -- was a good part of why these 16 lands are chosen. The other is that it was the last -- it's 17 where the people had lived. You may look on the map, there's 18 a section of the Reserve where there's cottages. I heard 19 talk go out, people saying that the police were there to 20 protect the cottagers. 21 We had no intention, at least, I didn't, that 22 I know of, to -- to harm those people. But I know a lot of 23 our -- their -- our Elders, they knew what it was like to 24 have their homes taken and weren't about to inflict that on 25 others.

1 We knew that that land was legally taken by 2 us, but the people that were living there, it wasn't their 3 fault, they had been -- they had paid good money for their 4 lands too, so, we wouldn't -- wouldn't want to inflict on 5 them what was inflicted on us. 6 Q: I see. So, was there any intention, 7 then, to occupy anything beyond what was occupied as of late 8 on September 4th, 1995, namely the Park and the Army Camp? 9 A: No. We had hoped that that would be 10 enough to start some meaningful negotiations to start -- 11 start a reserve to get us recognised, to get us back to where 12 we were in '42 before the land was taken. 13 Q: Thank you. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, there 15 were some pictures that were distributed to all Counsel that, 16 I believe, I should select to give to you. Thank you. 17 I should like to give a copy to you and I'm 18 not sure if Mr. Simon has -- 19 THE WITNESS: I have some. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I haven't seen 21 these. I have no idea what these are. 22 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: There are several 2 pictures, Mr. Commissioner. I propose to have Mr. Simon 3 identity them and then request that they be made exhibits. I 4 hope tha