1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 December 1st, 2004 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  
  3  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  4  Susan Vella        )
  5  Donald Worme, Q. C )    (np)
  6  Katherine Hensel  )
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein ) (np)       The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )            George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )  (np)      Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    ) (np)       Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )   (np)       Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena
 18                                   (Army Camp)
 19  
 20  William Henderson )   (np)       Kettle Point & Stoney
 21  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 22  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 23  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 24  Sue Freeborn     )   (np)
 25  Lynette D'Souza  )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (Np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )   (np)       The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (Np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Nancy Spies      )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (Np)
 11  
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  
 15  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 16  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 17  
 18  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 19  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Police
 20  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 21  
 22  Ian Roland       )              Ontario Provincial 
 23  Karen Jones      )   (np)       Police Association &
 24  Debra Newell     )   (np)       K. Deane
 25  Ian McGilp       )

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  
  7  Al J.C. O'Marra  )   (np)       Office of the Chief
  8  Francine Borsanyi )   (np)       Coroner
  9  
 10  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 11  Matthew Horner   )
 12  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 13  
 14  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 15  Craig Mills      )
 16  
 17  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 18  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 19  Melissa Panjer   )
 20  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 21  
 22  
 23  
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 4 Exhibits 6 5 6 WESLEY GEORGE, Resumed 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Jonathon George 7 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian McGilp 19 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer MacAleer 54 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 56 11 Re-Direct-Examination by Ms. Susan Vella 57 12 13 KEVIN SIMON, Sworn 14 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 60 15 16 Certificate of Transcript 224 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page No. 3 P-99 City TV video, September 07/1995 4 OPP DVD format copied on 2004/04/23 51 5 P-100 Document 1002409, page 13, Ipperwash 6 Military reserve marked by witness 7 Kevin Simon 78 8 P-101 London Free Press Aug 23/93 "Stoney Point 9 Teenager Complains of Assault", and Sarnia 10 Observer, Aug 23/93, "Native Says Military 11 Police Assaulted Him At Camp" 96 12 P-102 Letter addressed to Kevin Simon, 13 received on August 26, 1993. 98 14 P-103 Stan Thompson Drawing, September 15 20/95 marked by Witness 16 Mr. Kevin Simon 170 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 10:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is now in 4 session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden presiding. 5 Please be seated. 6 7 WESLEY GEORGE, Resumed 8 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning. 10 Who's first up? I think Mr. George, I think Jonathon George 11 was first. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Okay. Thank you. 13 MR. JONATHON GEORGE: Good morning, 14 Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning. 16 MR. JONATHON GEORGE: Good morning, Mr. 17 George. 18 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 19 MR. JONATHON GEORGE: How are you doing 20 today? 21 THE WITNESS: Good. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JONATHON GEORGE: 24 Q: My name is Jonathon George and I 25 represent the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation. And I'll

1 be quite brief, okay? There's only one (1) area I wish to 2 cover with you. Now you described yesterday where and when 3 you saw Cecil Bernard George on September the 6th. Do you 4 recall talking about that yesterday? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And I think you indicated that you 7 overheard a conversation between him and others? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay, with respect to him basically 10 offering to bring guns to the people? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. You recall giving that testimony 13 yesterday? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Now I just want to spend some time 16 going over that with you because I want to -- I want to make 17 sure that I fully understand your testimony. Now I take it, 18 and you can correct me if I'm wrong, the conversation you 19 overheard took place in the sandy parking lot, outside the 20 fence near the Park? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And it was obviously given that it 23 was near the Park? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: Okay. And during yesterday's testimony I

1 don't believe you could recall exactly what time of day that 2 conversation took place. I think you initially said you 3 weren't sure the exact time. You did believe it was 4 daylight, correct? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And you did indicate it was after 7 lunch and I think you ultimately settled on time being near 8 the dinner hour, the supper hour? 9 A: Yeah, somewhere around there. 10 Q: Okay. So it was in the evening some 11 time? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Early evening? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now I hate to jump back and forth but 16 just -- just briefly, with respect to the events that took 17 place later in the evening when the OPP officers came down 18 East Parkway Drive, you described hearing of someone getting 19 kicked and hit and being surrounded by police. And I think 20 you used the word -- you heard that because you were behind 21 the tree line? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. And the only time you came out was 24 to find your dad at some point? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Okay. 2 A: And I think after you -- after your 3 testimony about hearing about someone getting kicked and hit 4 and being surrounded by police, you found out some time after 5 that, that that was Cecil Bernard George? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. And do you recall who you heard 8 that from? 9 A: I didn't -- no, I don't recall. 10 Q: Okay. So based on your testimony, Mr. 11 George, based on what we just reviewed, is it fair to say 12 that at least to your knowledge, Cecil Bernard George was 13 there on the 6th on two (2) occasions? You saw him once 14 during the daylight hours around supper time and you at least 15 heard of him being there in the evening during the 16 confrontation? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Okay. And I might be stating the obvious 19 here, but that conversation you overhead definitely took 20 place on the first occasion that you saw Cecil Bernard 21 George? 22 A: Yeah, I'm pretty sure, yes. 23 Q: While it was still daylight? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: Okay. Now I want to also confirm, Mr.

1 George, that I have an accurate understanding as to who took 2 part in the conversation you overheard. Now, you testified 3 yesterday that it was quote: 4 "Probably Glenn and a few others." 5 Now I take it from that and you can again 6 correct if I'm wrong, but you weren't directly involved in 7 the conversation but simply overheard Glenn and the few 8 others speaking with Cecil Bernard George? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And I think, when Ms. Vella asked 11 you to recall who these others were, you -- you couldn't? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Okay. Now, do you know who Buck Doxtator 14 is? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And he was around the Park from 17 September 4th to September 6th, 1995? 18 A: Well, I guess so. 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Sorry, that's misstating 20 the evidence. The -- just to correct the record, the 21 evidence from Mr. Doxtator is that he was there from December 22 -- September 5th to 6th, not September 4th to 6th, so if this 23 witness is going to be asked to confirm or -- or reject that 24 evidence, he should be advised of Mr. Doxtator's evidence. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you.

1 CONTINUED BY MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: 2 Q: Okay, that's fine. During that period of 3 time, you saw him around there -- around the Park? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: September 5th -- September 6th? 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: Okay. And, given Mr. George, that you 8 can't recall who the other people were in this conversation 9 we've been talking about, would you agree that it's possible 10 that Buck Doxtator was part of that conversation? 11 A: No, I can't agree to that, no. 12 Q: Okay. You -- you can't rule that out, 13 though, right? 14 A: Yeah, I can't rule it out. 15 Q: Okay. And if I suggested to you, Mr. 16 George, that the conversation you overheard in the sandy 17 parking lot was, in fact, a joking-type conversation between 18 Cecil Bernard George and the others, would you have any 19 reason to disagree with that? 20 A: I don't think they'd be joking about 21 something like that. 22 Q: Okay. Now, Mr. George, I'm going -- I'm 23 going to read to you, a portion of Buck -- Did you know that 24 Buck Doxtator testified earlier in this proceeding? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Okay. And were you here listening to any 2 of that evidence? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. Now, I'm going to read to you, 5 portions of the evidence he gave on November 25th. 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: So I need you to listen and follow along 8 with me. For the benefit of my Friends, Commissioner, I'm 9 referring to Buck -- Isaac Buck Doxtator's testimony, I 10 believe on November 25th, 2004. And I'm starting on Page 170 11 and -- and I'll be directing the witness to certain portions 12 beginning on Page 170 through to Page 173. So I need you to 13 follow along with me, okay, Mr. George? 14 On Page 170, starting on Line 14, Ms. Vella 15 asked Buck Doxtator: 16 "All right. I'd like to move, then, to the 17 late afternoon/early evening of Wednesday, 18 September the 6th, 1995. Were you still in 19 the Park at that time?" 20 And it appears we're talking about at or 21 around the same time that we've been discussing, right? Do 22 you agree with that? 23 A: Yeah, I guess so. 24 Q: Okay. And Buck Doxtator answered, "Yes." 25 The next question:

1 "Okay. At some point in time, did you see 2 Cecil Bernard George arrive at the Park?" 3 The answer he gave was: 4 "I believe we went up front to get a coffee 5 or something, like, up to the barracks and 6 we came back and I remember seeing Cecil. 7 You're talking about Slippery?" 8 Ms. Vella indicated, Yes, and the answer was: 9 "Yeah, I remember seeing him there. 10 Q: All right. Just for the record, Cecil 11 Bernard George is also known to you as 12 Slippery?" 13 Now, Mr. George, do -- do you know Cecil 14 Bernard George as -- as Slippery, as well? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. Now, for the benefit of my 17 Friends, Your Honour, I'm jumping to Line 10 on Page 172 of 18 the transcript -- Line 8, actually. And Ms. Vella asked 19 Isaac Buck Doxtator: 20 "Okay, and did you see whether he had 21 anything with him?" 22 And -- and the answer Mr. Doxtator gave was: 23 "No. Again, he was standing about -- quite 24 a ways away, here to the wall, maybe, from 25 me, but he waved at us all. We pulled up

1 and got out. He was talking to a group of 2 people." 3 The next question was: 4 "All right. And he was talking to them, 5 actually, on the beach" 6 The answer, "No." The next question: 7 "Where?" 8 Mr. Buck -- Buck Doxtator answered: 9 "Right by the Park." 10 So, that also appears to be at or around the 11 same area we were discussing earlier? Do you agree with 12 that? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. 15 "Q: By the Park?" 16 Mr. Buck Doxtator said, "Yeah." 17 And, Commissioner, I'm now going to be 18 referring to Page 173. On Line 2, Ms. Vella -- Mr. George -- 19 Ms. Vella asked Mr. Buck Doxtator: 20 "All right. So you're pointing to..." 21 Just so you know, they were referring to a map 22 similar to the one that's behind you. The question: 23 "All right. So you're pointing at an area 24 that is designated as the sandy parking lot 25 area."

1 And Mr. Buck Doxtator answered: 2 "The sand covered roadway, yeah." 3 And, again, that appears to be the same area 4 that we were discussing earlier? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And moving to line 11, Commissioner, the 7 question that Ms. Vella posed was: 8 "All right. And did you go and speak with 9 Cecil Bernard George?" 10 The answer: 11 "Well, he was talking to the people and he 12 hollered over and I waved at him 'cause I 13 know him. He waved and he says he was 14 going to tell them to get batteries. He 15 had two (2) police scanners and two (2) 16 walkie talkies but they needed batteries. 17 And he asked if we needed anything else." 18 Then it goes on, the answer: 19 "Yeah. So he asked if we needed anything 20 so I joking, you know, I was joking around 21 and I says, yeah. I says, send some of 22 those men you've got over in Kettle Point 23 and some of them AK47s you got hanging on 24 the wall." 25 He went on to say:

1 "I just said that, you know, joking 2 around." 3 The question by Ms. Vella: 4 "Okay. All right. And how did AK47s 5 spring to mind as the --" 6 The answer: 7 "Oh, I don't know." 8 Next question: 9 "Okay." 10 And Mr. Doxtator just said: 11 "He [being Cecil Bernard George] just 12 laughed and he left." 13 Now, after hearing the evidence that Mr. 14 Doxtator gave under oath, does that either cause you to 15 change your recollection or to agree with my suggestion that 16 perhaps, maybe the conversation you overheard was of that 17 nature, a joking-type conversation? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. Now back in September 1995, you, 20 if my math is correct, would have been about fifteen (15) 21 years old? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Okay. Is it fair to say that although 24 you didn't know he was -- you knew who he was, you didn't 25 know him personally, that being Cecil Bernard George?

1 A: I knew him personally. 2 Q: Okay. Would it be fair to say, Mr. 3 George, that based on what you saw, and I don't want you to 4 speculate, I want you to say what you know, that there were 5 other occupiers who did know Cecil Bernard George better than 6 you? Would that be a fair thing for me to say? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. Are you aware that Glenn George, 9 and in fact some of your uncles, knew Cecil Bernard George 10 their whole lives? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. And were you aware that Cecil 13 Bernard George had a sister and a brother who were also part 14 of the Park occupation? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: Two (2) brothers. 18 Q: Okay. And Cecil Bernard George was not a 19 part of the occupation of the Park? 20 A: No, not to my understanding. 21 Q: Okay. And prior to you seeing him during 22 the daylight hours on September 6th, you hadn't seen him at 23 the Park area at all prior to then, from the 4th until that 24 point on the 6th? 25 A: I never seen him, I could have seen him,

1 I don't know. I can't recall right now anyway. 2 Q: You don't recall seeing him? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. And going back in time, you never 5 knew Cecil Bernard George to be a resident of the barracks or 6 to have participated in the camping on the -- on the ranges, 7 from '93 to '95? 8 A: Not when I was there, no. 9 Q: Okay. And did you know then, or later 10 find out that Cecil Bernard George was an Elected Member of 11 the Kettle and Stony Point First Nation? 12 A: Yeah. I knew Cecil. 13 Q: Okay. You knew that at the time? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. George. 16 Those are my questions for you. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, Mr. 18 George. I'm not sure, I think -- who's next, Mr. McGilp? I 19 don't think there are any other Aboriginal parties who 20 indicated an intention to examine. I think the OPPA is next. 21 MR. IAN McGILP: Thank you, sir. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 24 Q: Good morning, Mr. George. My name is Ian 25 McGilp, and I'm one (1) of the lawyers who represent the

1 Ontario Provincial Police Association. 2 I understand, sir, that you told us yesterday 3 that prior to July 29th of 1993, you attended a meeting with 4 others where a decision was made -- I'm sorry, no, July -- 5 I'm sorry, July 29, 1995, I'm sorry. 6 You attended a meeting with others where a 7 decision was taken to takeover the built-up area or the 8 barracks, do you recall that? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And when Marlin Simon was here -- you 11 know Marlin don't you? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And when he was here and gave evidence on 14 October the 12th, he told us that the school bus was used as 15 a diversion in taking over the built-up area. And by that he 16 meant that the school bus with some people on it, entered the 17 built-up area through one gate and that the majority of the 18 military people who were there moved down to see what was 19 going on. And when they did that, other people came in the 20 gate, the other gate. 21 Do you recall that matter of using the bus as 22 a diversion in that manner being discussed at that meeting? 23 A: I don't know if it was being discussed. 24 Probably, but yes, I recall that, yeah. 25 Q: You recall some kind of discussion about

1 using the bus in that way? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And were there any other plans discussed 4 at that meeting that you can tell the Commissioner about with 5 respect to how the actual takeover of the built-up area would 6 be -- would occur? Were there any other plans that you can 7 recall that were discussed? 8 A: I don't think so, no. 9 Q: There weren't any particular buildings 10 that the occupiers or that the demonstrators hoped to occupy? 11 Was -- was the idea that you would takeover the whole area? 12 A: Yeah, the whole area. 13 Q: The whole area? And that was -- that was 14 something that was discussed? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now I believe you mentioned, sir, that -- 17 that there were a few people from other First Nations that 18 were at that meeting too. Do you recall saying that? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And again, referring to the evidence of 21 Marlin Simon on October the 12th, I'll take you to that -- 22 what he said about that, if I may. And this is Marlin Simon 23 on October the 12th, on page 143 and -- and the question is: 24 "Q: And I think you told the Commissioner 25 that there were people from Oneida, from

1 Walpole and Sarnia who were also there when 2 you decided to enter the built-up area? 3 A: Yeah, there was people from Ravens 4 Town and Muncey and Chippewa of the Thames. 5 Q: Okay. So I take it that you and other 6 people had spoken with a large number of 7 people about your plans? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And I also take it that you wanted 10 more people there so that you had lots of 11 numbers on your side? 12 A: Yeah, sure." 13 Now do you recollect, can you help the 14 Commission at all with respect to -- do you recall, first of 15 all, that there were people from Oneida, Walpole, Sarnia, 16 Muncey? 17 A: I can't say for sure, but I imagine so, 18 yeah. 19 Q: You imagine so. I'm just going to ask 20 you, sir, about some names to see if you can help us identify 21 who might have been there and it may be that you cannot and 22 if you cannot, you'll just say so, please. You know Buck 23 Doxtator, you indicated earlier today, was he there at that 24 meeting that you recall? 25 A: No. I can't remember, no.

1 Q: You can't remember. And what about 2 Gabriel Doxtator? 3 A: Can't remember. 4 Q: Do you remember about the Jewel brothers? 5 Were they there? 6 A: Yeah. They were probably there. I can't 7 say for sure. 8 Q: But you believe they were probably there. 9 That's Russ Jewel and Les Jewel? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: What about the Isaac brothers? Do you 12 recall if they were there? That's Robert, Sam, and Ed Isaac? 13 A: No. I can't recall. 14 Q: You can't recall. What about Bruce 15 Elijah, do you recall whether he was there? 16 A: No. 17 Q: You don't recall? 18 A: I don't know. 19 Q: What about Layton Elijah, do you recall? 20 A: No. 21 Q: No. So I guess -- I guess it's fair to 22 say you can't really recall who was there at that meeting 23 other than the Jewel brothers from other First Nations? Can 24 you help the Commissioner at all on that matter? 25 A: No. I can't remember.

1 Q: That's the best you can do? Thank you, 2 Mr. George, that's fair. 3 Now you mentioned yesterday I believe, that 4 you were a passenger in a car that had a -- an accident at 5 the intersection of Matheson Drive and Army Camp Road. Could 6 you tell us, sir, exactly, what was the date of that 7 accident, do you recall? 8 A: I can't recall the date -- August -- 9 sometime in August -- end of August -- 29th or something. 10 Q: Do you -- do you mean the -- the end of 11 July or the end of August? 12 A: August, July -- I don't know. I can't 13 recall, I was in a car accident. I was knocked out for three 14 (3) days. I can't remember -- 15 Q: The day? 16 A: -- the date. 17 Q: I have a -- a report from the Windsor 18 Star dated August the 2nd of 1995, and it talked -- it's 19 under the heading, "Impass at Ipperwash" and for the benefit 20 of my Friends, the document number is 2001762, and this 21 article says the following: 22 "Ontario Provincial Police reported that a 23 car carrying four (4) Natives failed to 24 stop at an intersection stop sign and went 25 into a ditch near the southwest corner of

1 the Base." 2 And then it goes on to describe the driver and 3 the passenger who were killed in the accident. And then it 4 describes: 5 "Wesley George, 15, was taken to London for 6 treatment and then a fourth occupant of the 7 car refused medical treatment according to 8 the police." 9 Now, this article appears in the paper on 10 August the 2nd of 1995. Does that assist you? And then it 11 says -- it says that -- I think somewhere, I'm not sure. In 12 any event, the article was published on August the 2nd. Does 13 that assist you in determining when that accident occurred? 14 A: Yeah, I guess so. 15 Q: It would have been before that, right? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: And do you remember what time of day it 18 was that the accident occurred? Was it nighttime? I'm 19 sorry. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 21 Scullion...? 22 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: It's just an objection 23 as to relevance. The -- the accident was referred to in the 24 background in terms of how long he was at the Base and when 25 he moved back to Sarnia.

1 I don't know if we're getting into the details 2 of the accident or what type of investigation my Friend is 3 undertaking, but it seems to me that the accident occurred, 4 we've now established the date of the accident, and Mr. 5 George then returned to Sarnia. My objection is it's -- it's 6 absolutely irrelevant to what we're doing here. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we have 8 heard some evidence -- we've heard some evidence about this 9 accident. 10 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: That it occurred, yes. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That it occurred 12 and so I'm not sure where Mr. McGilp is going or how far he's 13 going into it or if there is any connection to the occupation 14 or not, I don't know, so, let's see how far he's going. 15 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 17 your objection. If it's off in irrelevant areas, then we'll 18 stop. I'm not sure, Mr. McGilp, how far are you taking -- 19 MR. IAN MCGILP: I -- I don't have any more 20 questions. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I didn't think 22 so. 23 MR. IAN MCGILP: I don't intend to go very 24 far with this. 25

1 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 2 Q: I was asking, do you remember what time 3 of day it was? Was it dark? 4 A: It was dark, yeah. 5 Q: And do you know where you were coming 6 from in that car? 7 A: I was coming from the beach. 8 Q: From the beach? Do you know where -- do 9 you remember where you were going to? 10 A: The barracks. 11 Q: To the barracks? And had there been a 12 party down at the beach that night? 13 A: I can't tell you. 14 Q: You can't recall. Was there a 15 celebration of some kind relating to the takeover of the 16 barracks? This was -- the takeover was July 29th. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's around the 18 -- 19 MR. IAN MCGILP: This was August -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 MR. IAN MCGILP: -- August the 1st. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes 23 MR. IAN MCGILP: -- or July the 30th, some 24 time in there. 25

1 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 2 Q: Was the -- was there a celebration with 3 respect to the takeover of the barracks? 4 A: Could have been, I don't know. 5 Q: And was -- was there drinking involved in 6 that celebration if there was one (1)? 7 A: I don't know. If I was there, I'd know, 8 but I don't know. 9 Q: Were you drinking at that -- that 10 evening? Do you recall? 11 A: No, I wasn't. 12 Q: And do you know whether the driver was 13 drinking? 14 A: Yeah, he was. 15 Q: He had been? Do you recall at all 16 whether the car was going fast as it went along? Was it 17 speeding along Matheson Drive or was it travelling slowly? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure 19 about that. I mean, is that relevant, somehow? The rate of 20 speed or the -- 21 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I just registered my 22 objection -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- or the 24 circumstances? I'm not sure. 25 MR. IAN MCGILP: Sir, I would submit that the

1 circumstances of the accident, the speed of the car, whether 2 it stopped at the stop sign, whether the driver had been 3 drinking, are related to the issues here in the sense that it 4 occurs very shortly after the time of the takeover of the 5 barracks and the witness indicates that there may have been a 6 celebration of that event and my submission would be that the 7 accident may have been related to the celebration of the 8 takeover of the barracks. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm not sure how 10 that's relevant. Ms. Vella, perhaps -- 11 MR. IAN MCGILP: I'll withdraw the question, 12 sir. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yeah, I think 14 you've gone as far as you need to go in establishing -- 15 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thank you, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that there 17 was an accident. 18 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thank you, sir. Thank you, 19 sir. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 22 Q: Sorry, Mr. George. I would next turn 23 your attention, if I may, to September the 6th and in 24 particular to the incident that involved Gerald George and 25 Stewart George, do you recall that incident?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you said, I believe, yesterday that 3 you were a few feet away from that incident when it occurred. 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And were you outside the Park on the 6 sandy parking lot when you observed that? 7 A: I was on the roadway, yeah. 8 Q: You were on the roadway? 9 A: Like at the side of the road, yeah. 10 Q: On -- on the side of the road near the 11 sandy parking lot? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Yes. And were there -- there were a 14 number of others there I believe, were there not? 15 A: A couple of others, yeah. 16 Q: A couple of others. Do you remember how 17 many at all? 18 A: Two (2) at the most. 19 Q: Two (2) at the most? And did you have a 20 stick or a club in your hand at that time when you were out 21 there? 22 A: I don't think so, no. 23 Q: You don't think so. Do you know whether 24 the others did? 25 A: I'm not too sure.

1 Q: You're not too sure? On November the 8th 2 of this year, Clayton George gave evidence in this 3 proceeding, and in cross-examination by Mr. Sandler on page 4 92, he's asked the following questions and they're talking 5 about Wednesday, September the 6th. 6 "Q: And again, I expect there's going to 7 be some evidence that at about 7:30 that 8 evening a group of occupiers were standing 9 at the intersection of Army Camp Road and 10 East Parkway Drive and four (4) or five (5) 11 had appeared to be -- had what appeared to 12 be axe handles in their hands or sticks and 13 bats. And an individual was told to get 14 out of the area, this wasn't his fight. 15 First of all, were you one (1) of those 16 occupiers? 17 A: Out on -- out on the road? 18 Q: Yeah. 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: You were? And what did you have in 21 your hands? 22 A: Just a stick." 23 Now the evidence that is anticipated that the 24 Commission will hear in due course is evidence that was 25 referred to in that passage, is the evidence of the Detective

1 Sergeant Mark Wright who will, we anticipate, give evidence 2 to the effect that he drove through that intersection at 3 about 7:30 or 7:45 that evening and that he saw a group of, I 4 think he said eight (8) to ten (10) male Natives standing in 5 the intersection, and that some four (4) or five (5) of them 6 had clubs. 7 And when that evidence or anticipated evidence 8 was put to Clayton George, Clayton admitted that he had a 9 stick in his hand. 10 Having heard the evidence of Clayton and 11 having been -- heard the anticipated evidence from Detective 12 Wright, does that refresh your memory at all about whether 13 other individuals in that intersection at that -- at that 14 point in time had sticks or clubs in their hand? 15 A: I don't know. They could have. 16 Q: They could have, but you're not sure. 17 A: I'm not sure. 18 Q: Thank you, Mr. George. Now I believe you 19 told Ms. Vella yesterday that on September the 6th, that 20 there was a checkpoint by the main gate at the entrance to 21 the Park and into the sandy parking lot. Do you recall that? 22 A: I don't know if it was a checkpoint. 23 There was people sitting around, yeah. 24 Q: A point that which -- or a place that 25 which people could observe what was happening out on the

1 roadway. Is that correct? 2 A: Yeah. 3 Q: And could you just on the map behind you, 4 could you point to where that -- the area that you are 5 referring to when you say that? 6 A: It's not on there. 7 Q: You said that -- that the area was near 8 the main gate, did you not? 9 A: The roadway's over here. It's not on 10 here. 11 Q: So the -- the observation post you were 12 talking about was up around Matheson Drive and Army Camp Road 13 was it? 14 A: Matheson Drive would be way down here. 15 There's a gateway to get in the Park around here. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: That was the fire I was talking about. 18 Q: The -- the -- I wasn't asking you 19 actually, sir, about the fire, but about the observation 20 point or the point -- 21 A: Yeah. Well, same thing. People sitting 22 around the fire. 23 Q: Same thing, I see. And so that -- and so 24 you're indicating that that fire and the people sitting 25 around it was somewhere south of the intersection along Army

1 Camp Road, is that correct? 2 A: Yeah. If it's the right one we're 3 talking about. 4 Q: And was that the only place that you saw 5 people observing what was going on? I suggest to you that 6 from that location that you've just described, individuals 7 there could not see what was happening on East Parkway Drive, 8 could they? 9 A: No, they were just -- just the gate where 10 they were sitting, that's the only thing they were looking 11 after. 12 Q: That they were looking at, yes. And were 13 there other people, to your recollection, observing what was 14 in another location, whereby they could observe what was 15 happening on East Parkway? 16 A: Not that I know of. 17 Q: Not that you recall? Now if I could draw 18 your attention, sir, to the events surrounding the arrest of 19 Cecil Bernard George. On September the 11th of 1997, you 20 gave a statement to the SIU; do you recall that event? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I'm just going to read you a short 23 passage -- I'm sorry, did I get the date wrong? 11 September 24 1997, I'm sorry, sir. Yes. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP 4 Q: I'm sorry, I'm confusing everybody, Mr. 5 George, by my inability to get dates straight in my mind. 6 On page 3 of the statement you gave to the SIU -- 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 8 Scullion...? 9 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I just -- if you don't 10 mind, Commissioner -- 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. Ms. Vella, 12 do I have a copy of the statement? 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 15 Q: So I'm only going to read you a very 16 short -- it's about four (4) lines or five (5) lines, from 17 the statement. If it was longer... 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: 1004587 is the number for this document. 22 Sir you have now, if you could -- what tab is that? Well, he 23 doesn't have a copy. I'm sorry sir, I thought you had a copy 24 of it. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I have a

1 copy of one (1) on October '95. 2 MR. IAN MCGILP: I don't think he needs a 3 copy, sir, I'm just going to read him a very short passage. 4 I think he'll be able to follow along quite evidently. Mr. 5 George has -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you think you 7 need the statement, we will stop and get you a copy. We'll 8 see. 9 MR. IAN McGILP: Yes, if you'd like -- if 10 you'd prefer -- oh, here comes a copy now. 11 12 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 13 Q: If you could look on page 3 of that 14 document, sir. And down near the bottom of the page about 15 eight (8) lines up, Mr. Kennedy asks: 16 "You never saw Cecil Bernard George 17 confront the police or be arrested?" 18 Do you find that location in the document, 19 sir? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And your answer was: 22 "I seen him confront the police when he was 23 running like out there, and I know he was 24 yelling and all, that -- that's when he 25 went out there to fight them and that's --

1 you could hear him fighting. Everybody 2 else started fighting and sort of hectic." 3 Now, we know from the evidence that Cecil 4 Bernard George gave at the -- we've heard evidence in this 5 proceeding that Cecil Bernard George had a club in his hand 6 when he went out there towards the police that night. 7 And we know from the evidence that Cecil Bernard George 8 himself gave at the David George trial, that he admits that 9 he had a club and that he hit the police with that club. 10 Now the question I would ask you, sir, is that 11 in light of what you told the SIU on September the 11th of 12 '97, and in light of the fact that Cecil Bernard George 13 himself admits that he had a club and then he went out and 14 hit the police with his stick; would you agree that Cecil 15 Bernard George went out there to fight the police armed with 16 a club or stick? 17 A: Well, if he told you he did, he must 18 have. 19 Q: Does that comport with your recollection 20 of the event, sir? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Thank you. Now, continuing on on that -- 23 with respect to September the 6th, you told us yesterday that 24 you saw the bus exit the Park. Is that correct? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: Where were the police at the moment that 2 the bus exited the Park, as far as you can recall? 3 A: On the roadway. 4 Q: On the roadway? Could you indicate on 5 the map, please, approximately where they were positioned on 6 the roadway? 7 A: Do you want me draw the spot on there, or 8 what? 9 Q: Yes, sir, if you could draw -- indicate 10 in whatever way you feel comfortable with, where the police 11 were when the bus exited the Park. In that area there? 12 A: Around in that area, yes. 13 Q: In that area there? 14 THE REGISTRAR: That would be number 9 on the 15 map, please. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 18 Q: Yes, could you put a number 9 there, 19 please? And for the record, the witness is -- is indicating 20 an area that could probably be described as right on the 21 corner of the intersection of Army Camp Road and East Parkway 22 Drive. 23 Now, Mr. Stacey George, when he was here 24 giving evidence, told the Commission that the police were 25 retreating when the bus left the Park. Do you agree with

1 that? 2 A: Yeah, well, if I was going to draw a 3 circle on there, I could draw all the way around, like where 4 the cops were. 5 Q: But the circle you have drawn indicates 6 the main body of where the police were. Is that right? 7 A: Yes, well, there could have been police 8 all over the whole road. I don't know for sure. 9 Q: But that was the main body of them, in 10 circle number 9? Is that correct? 11 A: Yeah, I could say that, yeah. 12 Q: Yes. And were they moving in -- were 13 they retreating or moving in a -- what is that, eastward 14 direction on East Parkway Drive at the time the bus exited 15 the Park? I'm sorry, west -- in a westerly direction on East 16 Parkway Drive when the bus exited the Park? 17 A: They went all over. I can't say they 18 went any one (1) direction. The cops went all over the place 19 when the bus went through and I don't want to say it went 20 through fast, because it wasn't going fast. 21 Q: I understand that, sir, but I'm not 22 talking about the point in time when the bus goes through the 23 line of police, I'm talking about the point in time when the 24 bus exits the Park -- comes out of the Park for the -- the 25 first moment that the bus comes out of the Park.

1 And I'm trying to get your best recollection 2 of what the police were doing at the moment that the bus left 3 the Park. Were they backing up or travelling -- or moving 4 westward on East Parkway Drive at the moment that you saw the 5 bus leave the Park? 6 A: Yes, I guess you can say that. 7 Q: Thank you, sir. Now, sir, I may -- if I 8 may, I would like to ask you a few questions about the 9 location of Mr. Dudley George on that evening. 10 You told us yesterday, I believe, that you 11 advanced up on -- looking on that map -- you drew an "X" and 12 I can't see the number from here, but there's an "X" 13 indicating that your forward position that evening during the 14 confrontation was approximately at the -- some people call it 15 the first, some call it the second cottage driveway, but it's 16 the first cottage driveway that is exiting off of East 17 Parkway Drive and the -- the bus and the car and you were all 18 up in that area of the first driveway. Is that correct? I 19 think -- I think -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Yes. And -- and you said, I believe, 22 that you heard shots and at that time you started running 23 back to the -- towards the Park. Is that correct? 24 A: No, I didn't start running back towards 25 the Park at that point in time after the shots. I stood

1 there for a little bit. 2 Q: So, when you heard the shots, you stayed 3 there for -- for what? A few seconds? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And then you turned and started running 6 back towards the Park. Is that correct? 7 A: Not right away, no. 8 Q: After a few seconds, you started running 9 -- 10 A: When the bus was reversing. 11 Q: When the bus started reversing -- 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: -- that's when you started running back 14 to the Park? 15 A: Alongside of the bus, yeah. 16 Q: Alongside of the bus, yes. Now, I 17 believe you said that while you were running back, you turned 18 around at some point and you saw Dudley George running behind 19 you. Is that correct? 20 A: No, the bus had passed me in order to get 21 a -- the bus came back so far -- 22 Q: Yes? 23 A: -- and I was beside the bus and the bus 24 got back to the fence area. 25 Q: Yes.

1 A: And I was still standing on -- on the 2 road and then we were coming in. Like, there was a bunch of 3 people behind me and off to the side, so -- 4 Q: I'm going to take you again to your -- 5 the evidence, or the statement you gave to the SIU. This 6 time it was on October the 14th and the number for that 7 document is 1002541 and it's Tab 2. Does he have that 8 document? It's Tab 2 in that black folder we just gave you. 9 It's Tab 2 in the Commission's folder, if that helps you, 10 sorry. 11 And I would ask you to turn to page 10. Do 12 you have that document, sir, the statement you gave on 13 October the 14th of 1995? 14 A: 15th? 15 Q: October the 14th of 1995, and it should 16 be at -- 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Tab 2. 18 MR. IAN MCGILP: Tab 2 of the Commission's 19 binder. Pardon me? 20 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's the tab before the one 21 he's looking at. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCILP: 24 Q: It's the tab before the one you're looking 25 at apparently. Ms. Vella will assist you. You should have

1 no sympathy for lawyers, Mr. George, but I can only tell that 2 lawyers have even more paper and more tabs to find than you 3 do. Could you look at page 10 of that document, sir? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And about halfway down the page, you 6 say: 7 "I was running back into the back of that 8 because I could hear gunshots and the 9 firing going off and I was looking back and 10 Dudley was right there. 11 He was right next to you where you were 12 running? 13 Yeah. 14 Was he standing at this time? 15 He was running." 16 Now I take it from that exchange that at least 17 in 1997, it was quite clear to you that at some point you 18 looked back behind you while you were running and you saw 19 Dudley George running behind you. Is that correct? 20 A: Just before he got shot, yes. 21 Q: Just before he got shot. Can you 22 indicate on the map for the Commission please, where Dudley 23 George was when you looked back and saw him running before he 24 was shot as you said? And you've put an X on the map. And 25 for the record it appears to be --

1 THE REGISTRAR: Number 10. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 4 Q: Would you mark that number 10, please. 5 Yes, that X? Just underneath it is fine. And that the mark 6 with the X 10 appears to be slightly to the east of the sand 7 pile. Pardon me, no, it's east of the sand pile. I'm not 8 the only one that gets confused about dates and -- and 9 directions. 10 On -- on the map that -- that X with number 10 11 beside it is slightly to the east of the sand pile that is 12 drawn on that map. Could you tell the Commissioner, sir, 13 what direction Dudley George was facing him when you saw him 14 that first time, the first time you looked back and he was 15 running? Could you tell the Commissioner in what direction 16 he was running in? Or what direction he was facing? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Mr. Scullion has asked me to draw your 21 attention, sir, before you answer that question, to page 11 22 and just to a few passages that are right after the passage 23 we have already referred to. And so you say on page 10 that 24 he was running and then underneath that Mr. Wilson says: 25 "He was running at this time, okay. So

1 he's running, you're both running at this 2 time, eh? What happened after this? 3 A: After we were running? 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: That's when he fell. 6 Q: Moments after he fell? 7 A: He fell when he was running. I never 8 noticed him before. I just noticed him 9 when he was falling down. He was running 10 and he fell down and my dad -- and my dad 11 was right behind him, he says, Dudley's 12 down and I stopped. 13 Q: Did you actually see him fall or did 14 A: No. 15 Q: When you looked back, he was already 16 down I take it? 17 A: Yeah I glanced at him. 18 Q: And he was down on the ground at that 19 time? 20 A: Yes." 21 Now the question that I have, sir, is: What 22 direction, if you can recall, what direction was Dudley 23 George facing when you glanced back that first time and saw 24 him running? Can you recall what direction he was facing? 25 A: He was facing towards the gateway, but I

1 just want to say that, about this sand pile here. I don't 2 recall it being there. 3 Q: I understand that. 4 A: And if it was we were further up on 5 there. 6 Q: Thank you, Mr. George. I mean, several 7 people have told the Commission that that sand pile was not 8 there on September the 6th and I only referred to it as a way 9 of putting on the record, some indication of where you drew 10 that 'X' so that someone reading the transcript will know 11 what we're talking about if they don't have the map in front 12 of them; do you understand? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Thank you, sir. Now, I'm going to refer 15 to you -- you to the evidence -- some more evidence given by 16 Marlin Simon. On this occasion it was October the 18th of 17 this year, and I'm reading from page 118. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 22 Q: I'm sorry, Mr. George. I believe you 23 told Ms. Vella yesterday that when you were running back 24 towards the Park, you stopped at some point when you got to 25 the sandy parking lot; do you recall that?

1 A: Not to, but like, before, like I said, 2 the bus passed me. 3 Q: Yes. Could you indicate on the map, with 4 an 'X', where you were when you stopped running, as best as 5 you can recall? And could you put a Number 11 by that 'X', 6 please? Thank you. 7 And, again I have to indicate for the record, 8 where that 'X' is, and I would describe it as approximately 9 in the middle of the corner at the intersection of Army Camp 10 Road and East Parkway Drive. 11 Now, you ran up -- you ran from your forward 12 point along East Parkway Drive to X 11 and you indicated, I 13 believe in the SIU statement that we read, that when you 14 turned around and saw Dudley, you were running and he was 15 running? 16 A: Not running, jogging, I said. 17 Q: Jogging, yes. 18 A: I said running at the time. 19 Q: Okay. But jogging is more accurate? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: So you were jogging and you look around 22 and you see Dudley jogging. Now, if you were -- if you 23 stopped jogging when you got to point X 11, and you turned 24 around and saw Dudley jogging behind you, before you got to 25 X 11, before you stopped running, then Dudley George must

1 have been on the pavement when you saw him that first time; 2 is that not correct? 3 A: No, I stopped, and then I start running 4 again. I stopped, ran off the road, and he was behind me. 5 While we were running back to the fence -- 6 Q: I see. Let me see if I have that 7 straight. So you're running along East Parkway Drive until 8 you get to point X 11 and then you stop; is that correct? 9 A: Stop, start running -- 10 Q: And then you start running again -- 11 A: Yeah, ran down towards the fence -- 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: -- and that's when Dudley was behind me. 14 Q: And -- and that's when you saw Dudley 15 running behind you? 16 A: Yeah. Well, I knew he was running behind 17 me already at that point in time when we got back there, and 18 then I looked, glanced at him. Next time I looked at him 19 when he was at X 7, he was shot -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: -- and he was falling to his knees. 22 Q: Okay. If I can, sir, I'm going to refer 23 you to evidence from Mr. Marlin Simon on October the 18th, at 24 page 118. Question: 25 "Okay. And can you help us understand what

1 you were -- what things you were doing in 2 the Park on September the 7th?" 3 And that's of course the day after the 4 shooting of Dudley George. 5 "A: I don't know. I went over to the 6 parking lot and just looking around and 7 showing people where -- where and what was 8 going on. I think we started a fire where 9 we found a blood spot right on East Parkway 10 Drive. We started a fire right there where 11 Dudley got shot first -- the first time he 12 got shot. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I guess that's where he got shot up. 15 Yeah, that's -- and then we started a fire 16 right there." 17 And now, sir, over the page on Page 120: 18 "Q: Okay, and you talked about lighting a 19 fire. And do I understand -- can you help 20 us understand where you lit the fire? 21 A: There was a blood spot. I'm not sure, 22 I think it was on the north side of that 23 roadway, right around there somewhere and 24 that's where we lit the fire. 25 Q: Okay. And you -- and you used your

1 pointer and you've pointed to the north 2 side of East Parkway, very close to the 3 first driveway to the north. 4 A: Yes." 5 Now, sir, we have -- we have the benefit of 6 having a video that was filmed by City TV on September the 7 8th, and in that video, you will see a fire burning on the 8 road, on the -- on the corner, or up from the corner on East 9 Parkway Drive. If you could just take a second, sir, and 10 watch the video. 11 12 (VIDEO PLAYING) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 15 Q: Now, sir, I should explain one (1) thing 16 about that video. The reason that it seems to repeat itself 17 is that this was raw video shot by City Television on the 18 scene on Oct -- on September the 8th, but that's the raw 19 video and then they edit that down and use whatever they 20 choose to use of it on their actual broadcast, but that's the 21 raw video and so it's repetitive. 22 Now, the question I have, sir, is having seen 23 that video, and having heard Marlin's -- Marlin Simons' 24 evidence and seeing the video and the location of the fire on 25 -- on East Parkway Drive there, does that refresh your memory

1 or assist you in any way as to where you saw Dudley George 2 when he was running? 3 A: No, it doesn't. Like, I drew that "X" 4 there for -- as an estimation of the line I ran back to where 5 Dudley -- where I seen him and not -- I can't tell you where 6 Dudley was anywhere before I seen him up here while we were 7 running in this area here. 8 Q: So, you're saying that you didn't see 9 Dudley in that area where the fire was? 10 A: No, I didn't see him there. 11 Q: The first time you saw Dudley he was 12 already on the sand parking lot? 13 A: Yeah, we were running back towards -- 14 Q: You were running back towards the Park? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Fair enough, Mr. George. Thank you. 17 Now, sir, I just -- I'm sorry, yes -- could we 18 make that video an exhibit, please? I'm not sure of the next 19 number. 20 THE REGISTRAR: P-99, Your Honour. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-99. 22 23 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-99: City TV video, September 07/1995 24 OPP DVD format copied on 2004/04/23 25

1 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN MCGILP: 2 Q: Sir, I just have a couple of more quick 3 questions for you. I think you told the Commission yesterday 4 that on September the 4th, you threw strobe lights at the 5 OPP? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And that -- and I think you've also said 8 that on September 5th you threw rocks at a helicopter that 9 was low down on the tree tops, is that right? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then also on September the 5th, you 12 threw rocks at the cruiser as it departed after the pepper 13 spray incident, do you remember that? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yes. And on September the 6th I think 16 you said you threw rocks and pieces of wood at the police 17 during the confrontation, is that right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you -- and we know, sir, and you 20 would've observed I take it, that there were other people 21 throwing rocks and sticks, bricks, whatever at the police on 22 different occasions on September 4th, 5th and 6th. Is that 23 correct? 24 There were other people in the Park that -- I 25 mean you told us yesterday about Judas George smashing the

1 window of a police cruiser and there were rocks thrown at 2 various times. Well, we've heard that evidence, sir. 3 The question I put to you is, that -- I would 4 suggest to you that repeated acts against the violence such 5 as -- repeated acts of violence against the police such as 6 throwing sticks or rocks or flares at that them -- 7 A: What about them ramming picnic tables or 8 being drunk or shooting at unarmed people? 9 Q: Well, that goes to the question I propose 10 to put to you, sir, and I would suggest to you that acts of 11 violence directed against the police such as we're been 12 talking about may well result in a response from the police 13 which could cause someone to get seriously hurt, couldn't it? 14 A: I guess you can say that, yeah. 15 Q: Thank you, Mr. George, those are all my 16 questions. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 MR. IAN MCGILP: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think Ms. 22 McAleer is up. 23 MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: Thank you, Mr. 24 Commissioner. Good morning. 25 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

1 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER MCALEER: 2 Q: My name is Jennifer McAleer and I'm one 3 of the lawyers who's acting for former Premier Mike Harris. 4 I just have a couple of very quick questions for you this 5 morning. 6 You indicated that on September 4th, you 7 entered the Park. You overheard part of a discussion between 8 some of the occupiers and an individual from the Ministry of 9 Natural Resources. Do you recall that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you indicated that you overheard the 12 occupiers telling the MNR individual that they were taking 13 over the Park. Is that correct? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Did you also overhear the individual from 16 the MNR telling the occupiers that they should not be in the 17 Park? 18 A: Yeah, I might have, yeah. 19 Q: Do you recall what he said? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Now you indicated that a little bit later 22 on on September 4th, you started throwing some strobe lights, 23 is that what they're called? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And that those strobe lights had been

1 provided to you by your father? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And during the time that you were 4 throwing those strobe lights at the OPP officers or at any 5 time after that, did any of the occupiers tell you that you 6 should not have thrown those strobe lights at the police? 7 A: No. Nobody told me nothing. 8 Q: And you told us about a couple of 9 incidents where you had thrown rocks at the police. And the 10 first I believe, was following the picnic table incident on 11 September 5th. After -- I take it when you threw the rock at 12 the police that some of the other occupiers saw you do that? 13 A: I didn't throw at the police. I threw it 14 at a police cruiser. 15 Q: I'm sorry. You threw it at the police 16 cruiser. And did any of the other occupiers see you do that? 17 A: Yeah. I guess, yeah. 18 Q: And did any of them tell you that that is 19 something that you should not have done? 20 A: No. 21 Q: You -- sorry? 22 A: Did anybody tell the cops they shouldn't 23 have rammed the picnic tables? 24 Q: You also told us about an incident where 25 you threw a rock at a helicopter. And I believe you also

1 indicated that David George was throwing rocks at the 2 helicopter? 3 A: Yeah, because they were raising up dust, 4 yeah. 5 Q: Did any of the occupiers tell you or tell 6 David George in your presence that you should not have been 7 throwing rocks at the helicopter? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Did you overhear any discussion in the 10 Park with respect to a possible injunction? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Do you recall hearing any of the 13 Occupiers use the word injunction? 14 A: No. 15 Q: Thank you. Those are all my questions. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 17 much. I think, Mr. Scullion...? 18 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEVIN SCULLION: 20 Q: Mr. George, Mr. McGilp asked you to draw 21 on the map behind you a circle where the police officers 22 were, or at least the bulk of the police officers were, when 23 the bus came out of the Park. Do you recall those questions? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: At the time that the bus came out of the

1 Park, where was Slippery George? 2 A: I believe -- do you want me to draw a 3 circle? 4 Q: If you could. You've drawn on the map 5 with a circle and inside the circle, a number 12, the area 6 where you recall Slippery George being when the bus came out 7 of the Park? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And, how did he get to that point? Do 10 you recall? 11 A: I don't know. He was -- that's where 12 he's been beaten up. He was on the corner of the -- the 13 parking lot here and that's where he -- the cops were beating 14 him up in a corner of the roadway. 15 Q: Okay, thank you, Mr. George. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. Any 17 re-examination, Ms. Vella? 18 19 RE-DIRECT-EXAMINATION BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: I'm the last one (1). The -- I just have 21 a -- I just want to clarify your evidence in relation to 22 where you saw Dudley George when you were running back to the 23 Park, just so that we have it clear on the record. 24 As I understand your evidence, the first time 25 you saw Dudley George, you were jogging on the sandy parking

1 lot towards the Park and he was jogging on the sandy parking 2 lot towards the Park behind you? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And then, was there a -- a brief gap in 5 time and you looked a second time behind you? 6 A: Yeah, well, I just looked forward to see 7 where I was running and then I glanced back at him. 8 Q: Okay, and so there -- and when -- it's 9 when you glanced back at him on -- the second time, that you 10 saw him dropping to his knees or was he already dropped to 11 his knees? 12 A: He was just standing there for, like, a 13 second. That's -- that's when he started falling down, yes. 14 Q: Okay. Thank you, those are my questions. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you very 16 much, Mr. George. That's it. Thank you for coming and 17 giving us your evidence. 18 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 19 20 (WITNESS STANDS DOWN) 21 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think this 23 would be a good time to take a morning break and then call 24 our next witness. 25 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you, Commissioner.

1 The next witness will be Mr. Kevin Simon, so, if we take -- 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's take a 3 break now. 4 THE REGISTRAR: All rise, please. This 5 Inquiry will recess for fifteen (15) minutes. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 11:04 a.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 11:22 a.m. 9 10 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now resumed. 11 Please be seated. 12 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Commissioner, the next 13 witness is Mr. Kevin Charles Daniel Simon. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good morning, 15 Mr. Simon. 16 MR. KEVIN SIMON: Good day. 17 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Simon, I understand from 18 Counsel that you wish to use the Eagle Feather oath. Very 19 good, sir. Please state your name in full, please, for the 20 record. 21 THE WITNESS: My name is Kevin Charles Daniel 22 Simon. 23 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 24 25 KEVIN CHARLES SIMON, Sworn.

1 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 2 Q: Good morning, Mr. Simon. I understand 3 that you were born on December 10th, 1976? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And in 1995, you would have been just -- 6 eighteen (18) just turning nineteen (19), you would have 7 turned nineteen (19) on December 10th, 1995? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: And your mother is Marcia Flora Simon? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And your brother is Marlin Simon? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And I understand it that Marlin is three 14 (3) years older than you? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And your maternal grandparents were 17 Daniel and Melva George; is that correct? 18 A: Yeah, that's correct. 19 Q: And your grandfather, Daniel George, was, 20 as we have heard, from Stony Point? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And Mr. Dudley George was your cousin? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: And it's my understanding that you grew 25 up at Kettle Point; is that correct?

1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And in 1993 you were attending school in 3 London, Ontario? 4 A: Yeah. 5 Q: And you were studying to become -- you 6 were taking an apprenticeship in carpentry? 7 A: Yeah. 8 Q: And today you work as a renovator and 9 carpenter? 10 A: Yeah, still. 11 Q: Pardon me? 12 A: Still, yeah. 13 Q: Still today? As a matter of fact you're 14 taking a day off today? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: And as I understand it, you have no 17 criminal record? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And, take you back a few years, I 20 understand that when you were thirteen (13), that would 1990, 21 your grandfather, Daniel George, was buried at the Army Camp; 22 is that correct? 23 A: Yes, that's correct. 24 Q: And prior to his death had you spent time 25 with your grandfather, Daniel George?

1 A: Yeah. He'd raised me quite a bit as -- 2 before I had started school, before kindergarten age. 3 Q: Yes? 4 A: My mom was still taking school at that 5 time, so my grandpa spent a lot of time basically, 6 babysitting me. 7 Q: And after you went to school, did you 8 spend time with your grandfather and grandmother as well? 9 A: Yeah. They lived next door. 10 Q: And prior to his death, did you speak to 11 your grandfather or did your grandfather speak to you about 12 Stony Point and his life at Stony Point? 13 A: Yes, quite a bit. He used to take me for 14 rides by there, every time I had chance. I liked going for 15 rides. 16 Q: And when you say you went for rides, did 17 you go down to the Army Camp at the Camp Ipperwash and drive 18 inside? 19 A: No. We weren't allowed to go inside the 20 camp. We're usually turned away. He would take me down on 21 the beach area, Matheson Drive and show me where the military 22 police would be stationed on guard or whatever and be turned 23 away basically. 24 Q: So that you would often go with your 25 grandfather down Matheson Drive down to the beach and --

1 A: Well, all the way around. 2 Q: All the way around? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: The whole perimeter of Camp Ipperwash? 5 A: Yeah. 6 Q: And can you tell us some of the things 7 that your grandfather told you about his life at Stony Point? 8 A: Well he was -- he was young when they had 9 taken the land. He would have been just about ready to turn 10 twenty-one (21) I believe. So a lot of stuff he talked about 11 would've been as -- as he was growing up. Talked about times 12 have been tough, I guess, coming out of the depression years. 13 A lot of people were poor. And talked about 14 things they did to survive. Different woodworking things, 15 they would go into the bush and cut cedar posts for farmers, 16 for fences, make handles, axe handles, whatever. Stuff like 17 that. Crafts, do hunting, sell hides. Just about anything 18 to make a living I guess. 19 Q: And did he tell you about -- was he a 20 trapper as well? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And did he trap on the land -- on Stony 23 Point prior to the appropriation? 24 A: Yeah. And other areas too. There was -- 25 at that we used to have three (3) inland lakes going towards

1 Grand Bend. They considered that our hunting areas. Those 2 lakes are drained now due to the Osabo (phonetic) cut. But 3 that's -- he used to talk about going on where he would get a 4 lot of muskrats and stuff. It would take him all day to walk 5 around there. Basically used trap line I guess you call it. 6 Q: And what did your grandfather tell you, 7 if anything, about the appropriation in 1942 of the Stony -- 8 of Stony Point? 9 A: It was something that bugged him for 10 sure. He would see it and it bugged him a lot. He -- they 11 had tried to fight it, they even held a vote, the majority 12 voted no, they didn't want it to be sold or taken. It was 13 set aside for them by a Treaty in recognition of their -- 14 what our ancestors had done for the King of England -- for 15 Canada. 16 When they appropriated or expropriated, 17 whatever you want to call it, took the land, he felt that 18 that was illegal and it was something that should not have 19 been done but they had no -- no course of action to -- to 20 basically fight it. At that time Native people weren't 21 allowed to vote, weren't allowed to gather in groups, they 22 would be arrested. So it was something that hurt him deeply. 23 Q: And the -- did your grandfather tell you 24 where he moved after the appropriation of the land at Stony 25 Point?

1 A: He talked about living in the oil springs 2 Petrolia area I guess, Oil City. Did some work as a 3 lumberjack, different jobs, live wherever I guess. 4 Eventually settled on Kettle Point, I'm not too sure how long 5 after but he had already had a couple of children so it was a 6 few years after '42. 7 Q: And did you visit Stony Point with your 8 grandfather prior to his death? 9 A: He had taken me in there one (1) time, 10 one (1) of the times he was babysitting me before I started 11 school. I didn't realize it at the time but we were inside 12 the camp and cutting wood and snuck past the military police. 13 Other than that I'd never really seen the full perimeter, the 14 inland lakes or the dunes or any of that. The beauty of the 15 land I guess. I'd always seen it from the outside going by 16 on the highway or Outer Drive. 17 Q: All right. And -- 18 A: And the only other time I'd seen my 19 grandfather in there was in 1990. I think it was in August, 20 beginning of September, he stayed in there for a week. Right 21 next to the barracks area there was a camp-in protest -- 22 demonstration. 23 Q: And the demonstration that you're 24 referring to, if I could show you a copy of Exhibit P-41, the 25 -- the camp-in was located near the hospital. Is that

1 correct? 2 A: Yeah, I believe it was called the 3 hospital. It's right in front of that -- that one (1) 4 building, there's a chapel -- there's two (2) churches there. 5 If you just move a little closer to your left, there. Yeah, 6 right in there. It's where they had a sacred fire set up and 7 a few tents. 8 Q: And you're referring to -- is the chapel 9 -- it's Building 46 on P-41. There's a copy -- a hardcopy of 10 P-41 in front of you, Mr. Simon. And the legend at the 11 bottom? And there's a -- the Roman Catholic Chapel is P-46 - 12 - is Building 46 and the Protestant Chapel is 47 and the -- 13 so the area you're pointing out is in -- to the south of the 14 Roman Catholic Chapel, Building 46? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And did you visit your grandfather at the 17 -- at the -- the camp-in in 1990? 18 A: Actually, he was visiting us. We were 19 the ones camping. He was -- his health was failing at that 20 time. He died not too long after. He died in October of 21 that same year, but he had made the effort to walk. 22 There was a gate further down 21 to the east 23 where everybody would park along the highway and walk in and 24 at that time he was really short of breath. I remember just 25 the effort of walking to that fire was a great deal of effort

1 for him at that time. 2 Q: And the gate -- can you point out -- I've 3 got on the map -- 4 A: Oh, it's still -- it's still basically in 5 the barracks, it's just -- just a little past the barracks 6 Q: So, just past -- 7 A: -- so it wasn't a great deal of walk, but 8 -- 9 Q: So, it was just to the east of the built- 10 up area on P-41? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And were you -- you would have been, I 13 take it, thirteen (13) in the summer of 1990. Were you there 14 with your mother? 15 A: No. My brother was there, my uncles. 16 There was various people; some would come, some would go. 17 Q: So that -- can you -- which of -- just -- 18 how -- can -- which of your uncles were there during -- 19 A: I remember my Uncle Moon, Mark George, he 20 was -- 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: -- he had taken me a couple of times for 23 a ride. We had no running water so when we were camping he'd 24 take a shower, give me a ride down to Kettle Point. 25 I remember Slippery -- Cecil Bernard. He had

1 been there at that time, too. 2 Q: Yes? 3 A: I'm not too sure who else there is, just 4 -- I didn't really know a lot of those people either at the 5 time. 6 Q: In 1990 were you living at Kettle Point 7 or some place -- 8 A: Yeah, I was living in Kettle Point. 9 Q: And that demonstration, that -- or the 10 camp-in -- what was the camp-in -- tell about the camp-in? 11 A: Well, at the time there was -- there was 12 a thing going on in Oka, so it was kind of a demonstration in 13 solidarity with those people, so there wouldn't be the 14 violence of them being shot or whatever with the Army the way 15 they were -- they were showing on the news, the way that they 16 were being built up, surrounding those people with the 17 helicopters and barbed wire. 18 So what we done there is show support that 19 there wasn't -- those people weren't alone in their fight and 20 their struggle to reclaim -- reclaim their ancestral lands, 21 their burial grounds and -- because the same thing was 22 happening here at Camp Ipperwash and Stoney Point. 23 Q: And the demonstration that -- in 1990, do 24 you recall was there -- was there -- I know you were a young 25 man then, but were there any confrontations with the Military

1 or the OPP -- Ontario Provincial Police? 2 A: I know there was threats. They had 3 threatened to charge everybody with trespassing and stuff 4 like that, but everything was fairly peaceful. 5 Q: Was it peaceful camp-in? 6 A: The military wasn't harassing us as much 7 as they did in '93. 8 Q: Okay. Speaking of demonstrations, did 9 you participate as a young man in demonstrations at Stony 10 Point? 11 A: Yeah. There was various -- out on the 12 corner of Highway 21 and Army Camp Road. 13 Q: Yes? 14 A: And along Army Camp to the main gate 15 going into the barracks area. There had been several 16 demonstrations over the years, basically all of my life. I 17 remember one (1) in particular there was -- that stood out 18 the most. 19 They said it was the first time in the history 20 of Camp Ipperwash that the Lieutenant Governor missed the 21 graduation ceremonies to inspect the cadets. 22 He apparently never showed up for fear of my 23 grandfather and my grandmother and Bernice Jackson, another 24 Elder. They were the only three (3) that had gone out there 25 with their signs stating that they wanted their land back.

1 They wanted justice. 2 Q: And when was that demonstration by your 3 grandfather and grandmother and Ms. Jackson? 4 A: I can't really remember exactly. It was 5 -- it could have been in '90, in the summer. 6 Q: And there were other demonstrations that 7 you participated in with your grandparents and your mother, I 8 understand? 9 A: Yeah. There was a demonstration in '88. 10 My brother and other cousins had been -- they had been 11 working at the base. I don't know if they were working in 12 the kitchens, washing dishes or whatever, various jobs. 13 Towards the end of the season all of these 14 young Natives were fired. Just on short of being the end of 15 the season where they would have had enough time for say 16 unemployment or whatever. 17 It seemed pretty odd at the time to -- just 18 for one (1) person or the other, but when you looked at it 19 there was -- there was like a half a dozen and it was just 20 those people that were fired. 21 So we had a -- I'm pretty -- I'm not too sure, 22 my mom took us there, she may have been one of the organizers 23 of that demonstration, but the -- the idea of that 24 demonstration was to talk about the -- the way our people are 25 treated on their own lands.

1 They're not treated fairly I guess. Fired 2 without reason, without cause. They said that some of them 3 were underage but they never checked the age when they hired 4 them, they were good enough to work all summer. Come time 5 for the lay offs they suddenly decided to check I guess, I 6 don't know. 7 Q: And what was the result of that 8 demonstration? 9 A: Same as most. They ignored us, said the 10 land would be returned when it wasn't no longer needed. 11 Q: And prior to your grandfather's death, 12 did he talk to you about the Provincial Park? 13 A: Yeah. 14 Q: And what did he tell you about the lands 15 in the Provincial Park? 16 A: That was part of our -- our Reserve too 17 also. Well the name of it, Stony Point, the name of our 18 Reserve is Stony Point and it's kind of not too hard to 19 recognize that fact. But he also talked about his -- his 20 grandfather, Mandika (phonetic) that lived in the Park as his 21 homestead. 22 Q: Your grand -- so that would be your great 23 great grandfather? 24 A: Something like that. A few generations 25 back anyway.

1 Q: Yes? 2 A: So when the family took on the George 3 name I believe, so. 4 Q: And what was your great grandfather's 5 name? 6 A: They have him listed as George Mandika. 7 He went by Mandika and then when they I guess I don't know 8 what you call that. 9 Q: Some point it got changed to George? 10 A: Yeah, when they started making listings 11 of naming -- colonialized name I guess. 12 Q: So that your grandfather told you about 13 his grandfather Mr. Mandika, did he tell you anything else 14 about the Provincial Park, that -- 15 A: There was mention of burial sites in 16 there. I was never -- never shown where they were or where 17 they would have been. Because at that time they talked about 18 how the Park was basically bulldozed, flattened out for the 19 creation of the Park. 20 So -- and they talked about the desecration of 21 -- of the land and of what was there. People had gone in 22 there. It was a good place for collecting cedar and the -- 23 the cedars trees grow in abundance in that area and it's a -- 24 it's a medicine our people use in ceremonies for cleansing. 25 So when people are collecting that would be -- they still

1 went to that area even after the Park was created. 2 I remember hearing -- reading in some of the 3 documents that had gone over in past years, there -- letter 4 from one (1) of the Ministry and Natural Resources people was 5 requesting the use of a gun because of all these natives were 6 coming in and out of there with hatchets. They were armed 7 and he wanted to be armed. 8 Q: These were people going into the Park, as 9 you understood it, to cut down cedar? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: Can you tell me when the first time that 12 you went into the Army Camp and toured the Army Camp? Was 13 that at the time of your grandfather's funeral? 14 A: Yeah, I had been in there before, like I 15 said, when I was a child, but -- 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: -- I didn't really realize where I was, 18 just that we were cutting wood, but after that, the first 19 time I actually got to see the whole perimeter of -- of the 20 base of Aazhoodena, as we call it, was during my -- my 21 grandfather's funeral. 22 It was -- he had the main part of the funeral 23 in Kettle Point and he had the final ride -- the procession 24 went down Highway 21 and into the Camp and went through the 25 base, all the way down and around the Inland Lakes, up around

1 Outer Drive and eventually made it around to the graveyards 2 that are inside the base, right in the middle -- middle 3 section. 4 Q: The graveyard is -- or the, as I 5 understand it, is in the area, I guess, east of -- there's a 6 -- on Exhibit P-40 -- excuse me -- on Exhibit P-40, there's a 7 -- on a road that runs through the centre of the Army Camp, 8 there's a reference to gate, and as I understand it, the Army 9 -- the cemetery's around that area -- to the east of that 10 area? Is that correct? 11 A: Just east of it, yes. 12 Q: Yes. And so that on the day of the 13 burial, the procession went around the perimeter in the 14 inside of the -- of the Army Camp? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Okay. And, how did you find out about 17 the move onto the Army Camp in May of 1993? 18 A: I may have seen it on TV, I'm not too 19 sure. My mother had told me about it. I'm not too sure 20 which order it happened, but I heard it from both and that's 21 -- would have been the next day I guess. Got off school and 22 made my way there. It would have been May 7th and -- 23 Q: And so you were, at the time, studying in 24 London? 25 A: Yeah.

1 Q: And that's when you were taking your 2 apprenticeship in carpentry? 3 A: Yeah, I was in grade 11. 4 Q: And -- so, what did you do on May the 5 7th? 6 A: They had had a -- the camp was set up 7 right by where -- they call it Mud Creek, I think, just along 8 Highway 21 close to the ranges. 9 Q: And that would be -- Mud Creek is on the 10 eastern end of the Army Camp? 11 A: Yeah, basically. So, when -- I went in 12 there and just listened to what people were talking about, 13 what they had to say. There was, you know, Maynard and 14 others, Clifford and some other elders had been talking with 15 the -- the military officials. 16 Q: And Maynard -- if I might, the Maynard -- 17 the Maynard you're referring to is -- 18 A: Maynard T. 19 Q: -- Maynard T. George? 20 A: Yeah. 21 Q: And Clifford is Clifford George. 22 A: Yeah. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: And others. I'm not too sure, I wasn't 25 part of those talks, but that's who I had heard talking at

1 the time. 2 Q: Just tell me what you did. You -- you 3 went in on May the 7th on the eastern end of the Army Camp to 4 the camp that was located by Mud Creek? 5 A: Yeah, that's where I spent my first night 6 in camp. 7 Q: Yes? And was your brother, Marlin Simon, 8 there at this time? 9 A: Yeah, he was there before me. 10 Q: And did you stay with your brother or 11 simply camp? 12 A: I just slept in my truck. 13 Q: Yeah. 14 A: You know, a little pickup truck with a 15 topper so I slept in the back of that. 16 Q: Okay. And did you -- how long did you 17 stay when you went in on May the 7th; one (1) night after the 18 first night, what did you do? 19 A: I woke up pretty early the next morning, 20 I know that. It was kind of cold that morning, so I was up 21 before sun -- the sun come up and had -- there was a fire 22 going, went and warmed up and met up with -- there's another 23 individual, can't remember who he was, that was awake, he was 24 the one (1) tending the fire, I guess, and talked to him for 25 a little bit.

1 And my brother was the next one to wake up and 2 we had the bright idea to go for a -- a ride, basically tour 3 the base, or the Reserve. We made it most of the way around 4 before we had a run in with the military police. 5 After that, I'm not too sure, it might have 6 been a weekend or something, I stayed for a couple more days 7 and then went back to school the following Monday or 8 something, I'm not -- 9 Q: So -- 10 A: -- not too sure. 11 Q: -- in that early part of the summer, in 12 May and June of 1993, you had -- you stayed at the Camp on 13 weekends and went back to school? 14 A: Yeah. Well, I had the truck at that time 15 too, so I'd drive back and forth and stay at the Camp. 16 Q: And at some point did you -- in the 17 summer of 1993, did you move into the Camp on a more regular 18 basis? 19 A: Yeah. Well, right from the start I was 20 basically there every day at some -- some of the time or 21 another. As the summer went on they had started -- they had 22 set up a camp further to the west, closer to the barracks, on 23 where -- would be my great-grandparents' homestead. 24 Q: And could you point that out -- use -- 25 there's a laser -- a laser pointer on --

1 A: This one (1) here? 2 Q: -- the desk. Yes. Could you point out 3 on Exhibit P-40 the area that you're referring to? 4 A: Right around that little road there. 5 Right to the west of the rifle ranges. 6 Q: Okay. And perhaps -- there's in front of 7 you a copy of P-40 and I would ask that -- there's a black 8 pen in front of you, Mr. Simon, I wonder if you could mark on 9 the copy of P-40 that's in front of you, the area where your 10 -- you indicated your grandparents' homestead was? 11 A: Just draw a rectangle or something? 12 Q: Yes. 13 A: I don't think it's black but -- 14 Q: Use the black one, it'll -- think -- I 15 think it'll be easier if there's a -- a regular -- not the 16 marker -- if there's just a marker -- use the red one then, 17 Mr. Simon. 18 And for the purposes of the record, your -- if 19 you put a number 1 on that -- and for the purposes of the 20 record, Commissioner, we'll ask that this map, copy of P-40, 21 be marked the next exhibit. I think it would be P-100. 22 THE REGISTRAR: P-100, Your Honour. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-100. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-100: Document 1002409, page 13,

1 Ipperwash Military reserve marked 2 by witness Kevin Simon 3 4 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 5 Q: And the area that you're marking the -- 6 where your grandfather's homestead was -- or his parents' 7 homestead, is just to the east of the rifle range on the 8 south side of the -- the south end of the Army Camp, just 9 north of -- of Highway 21. 10 And if you look at the copy of P-100 that's on 11 -- or P-40 that's on the screen, there's a little -- you see 12 the rifle range, to the left of it appears to be a road 13 running north on the west side, and then a road that -- a 14 short road that runs into the rifle range road. And there's 15 a little black box at the bottom between the rifle range road 16 and this -- the shorter road. 17 That little black box is the building that's 18 there today? It's a silver -- 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: -- building? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And the area that your -- that you've 23 marked number 1 on Exhibit P-100 is just to the west of that 24 road and that building? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And, so, you moved into the area. The 2 camp was moved down to the area of your grandfather's 3 parents' land? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And did you set up camp there? 6 A: Yeah, in a way. I didn't really have a 7 tent or nothing, but I stayed -- my brother had a trailer and 8 I stayed with him at that time. 9 Q: And did -- 10 A: For a while. 11 Q: -- did your -- your uncle was Abraham 12 George? 13 A: Great-uncle, yeah. 14 Q: Great-uncle and did he have a trailer at 15 -- on the Army Camp at that point? 16 A: Yeah, some time during that summer. 17 Q: All right. 18 A: I'm not too sure when exactly. 19 Q: Okay. And did you -- how long did you 20 stay with your brother? 21 A: I'm not too sure, maybe a month or so 22 then I moved into that little green shed further north along 23 that rifle range road. 24 Q: And can you point out on Exhibit P-40, 25 with the laser, where the green building was?

1 A: There's that road that goes right to the 2 back and it's just a little past -- right in that area 3 somewheres. 4 Q: Okay, could you mark with a number 2 -- 5 put an "X" and the number 2 beside it, the approximate area 6 where the green building was -- where the green building was? 7 And, although it doesn't appear on this copy of P-40, the 8 central part of the Army Camp was covered with trees. Is 9 that not correct? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And the tree line started just north of 12 the road that ran parallel to Highway 21? 13 A: Maybe about a hundred (100) yards or so, 14 yeah. 15 Q: And the green building that you stayed in 16 by the rifle ranges, the -- the trees were -- started just to 17 the west of that? Is that correct? 18 A: To the west and to the south. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: It was back about halfway -- or not quite 21 halfway down the range, but it was past the tree line anyway. 22 Q: Okay. And then, prior to May the 6th, 23 1993, had you participated in any discussions about the 24 occupation of the Army Camp in the summer of 1993? 25 A: Yeah, over the course of our lifetime, my

1 grandparents had always -- always talked about it. There was 2 different meetings. I remember one (1) particular time and I 3 think that was in 1992, we had a -- I think it was called a 4 Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs or something. 5 They had -- I think it was Tom Sidden 6 (phonetic) at that time was the Minister of Indian Affairs 7 was actually in Kettle Point and a group of us went there to 8 give him a document declaring our independence as a separate 9 First Nation and demanding the return of our lands and that 10 justice be -- be done -- 11 Q: But -- 12 A: -- and treaties honoured. 13 Q: But -- I understand that, but I didn't 14 make myself clear in my question -- 15 A: Hmm hmm. 16 Q: -- but prior to 1990 -- May 6th, 1993, 17 were you involved in the planning for the move into the Army 18 Camp on May the 6th, 1993? 19 A: No. 20 Q: No. 21 A: I wasn't personally involved, no. 22 Q: But you had heard talk about the -- about 23 a move -- virtually all your life, people wanted to go back 24 to the Army Camp? 25 A: Yeah.

1 Q: And did you hear any discussion or talk 2 in the summer or in the spring of 1993, specifically about 3 going into the Army Camp in May of 1993? 4 A: No, I never really heard of anybody 5 setting an exact date to moving in there. It was, I'd say on 6 May -- May 7th when I -- when I did go -- physically move in 7 there was the first I'd heard of that -- 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: -- that particular demonstration. 10 Q: And can you tell us a little bit about 11 the building that you moved into up on the ranges -- the 12 green building? Can you describe it for us? 13 A: It was just a small shed. Nothing really 14 fancy about it, it was green. 15 Q: How big was it inside? 16 A: Maybe twelve (12) feet by sixteen (16) or 17 something like that. I'm not too sure. 18 Q: Yes? And when you moved in, what was 19 inside of it? 20 A: There was bench all the way around the 21 outside of the building, the outside walls. And there was a 22 small oil furnace in the middle. 23 Q: Yes? 24 A: And that's about it. 25 Q: That -- that was it?

1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: And the -- did you know what it had been 3 used for? Or what did it look like it had been used for 4 prior to you moving in? 5 A: It had a sign on the door as you went in. 6 It said 'Shelter'. So, I needed some shelter and I guess 7 that's what the army used it for too, is shelter. 8 Q: Okay. And so what if anything did you 9 move into the green building that you moved into? 10 A: Well, I had table and chairs, couple of 11 couches I used for a bed. 12 Q: Yes? 13 A: Various stuff like that, clothes, alarm 14 clock. 15 Q: Pardon me? 16 A: Alarm clock, stuff -- just -- 17 Q: Personal things? 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: And at some point did you move in some 20 fridges and stoves or bring fridges and stoves to the area 21 and around the green shed? 22 A: Yeah. I had a -- actually quite a few of 23 them -- the spot that I was working at that time in London 24 was an apartment building, three (3) storey walk-up, they 25 were basically throwing out all the appliances in there and

1 tried a few of them out and they still worked, figured why 2 not? Had a pickup truck, I brought them down. 3 I don't know, there must hae been maybe a half 4 a dozen fridges, half a dozen stoves, give or take, not too 5 sure. I had them, kind of, piled up around outside of the 6 building. 7 Q: And what were you going to do with the 8 fridges and stoves? 9 A: Use them basically. Give them to people 10 that -- we were getting generators brought in and stuff and 11 figured sooner or later people will be able to use them as we 12 occupied more of the Base. 13 Q: So that -- 14 A: Made permanent -- permanent homes. 15 Q: So you brought them down for use by other 16 occupiers as they were able to use them? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Okay. And can you tell us approximately 19 how many you had -- fridges and how many stoves? 20 A: I'm not -- never really counted them. 21 But I thought there was maybe about a half a dozen of each. 22 Q: Okay. And at some point in the summer of 23 1993, you had an occasion to -- the military came to the 24 green shed, is that correct? 25 A: Yeah.

1 Q: And can you tell us what happened when 2 the military came to the green shed? 3 A: The morning that they came to -- they 4 said came to evict me was -- it was still dark out, I had 5 just woken up, just getting ready to go to work as usual that 6 morning. 7 Q: And you were working in London? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Yes? 10 A: I had a black lab, he was staying in that 11 shack with me at the time and I noticed the dog was -- it 12 heard something, it was up and making a commotion, so I got 13 up and I opened the door and didn't really see nothing at 14 first. And after the dog went out there I noticed that he 15 looked one way and took off. So I had a better look and 16 could see that it was the army coming up at that point. 17 They had -- there was those deuce and a halves 18 big -- big army trucks. I don't know if they were 19 2 1/2 half ton or something, they were fairly big with the 20 canvas back on them. 21 Q: So that -- the truck that has a -- on the 22 back there's a -- it's covered with a canvas back. It's a 23 straight truck, it's not a semi, it's -- it's a -- just a big 24 truck? 25 A: Yeah. A