1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 21st, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )    (np)     Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein )  (np)      The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )   (np)     George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    ) (np)       Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )   (np)       Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )   (np)       Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena  (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )   (np)       Kettle Point & Stony
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  Colleen Johnson  )   (np)
 22  
 23  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 24  Walter Myrka     )
 25  Susan Freeborn   )   (np)

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )   (np)       The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Ian Smith        )   (np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (np)
 11  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 12  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 13  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 14  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 15  
 16  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 17  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 18  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 19  
 20  Ian Roland       )              Ontario Provincial 
 21  Karen Jones      )   (np)       Police Association &
 22  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 23  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
 24  Annie Leeks      )   (np)
 25

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  Clem Nabigon     )   (np)
  7  Adriel Weaver     )   (np)       Student-at-Law
  8  
  9  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
 10  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 11  
 12  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 13  Matthew Horner   )   (np)
 14  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 15  
 16  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 17  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 18  Erin Tully       )
 19  
 20  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 21  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 22  Melissa Panjer   )   (np)
 23  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 24  Kelly Graham     )              Mark Arthur Watt
 25  Jill Simpson     )

1 LIST OF APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Kelly Graham ) Malcolm Gilpin, Mark Watt, 4 Jill Sampson ) John Tedball, Cesare 5 DiCesare and Robert Kenneth 6 Scott 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 GEOFFREY FULTON CONNORS, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 7 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 114 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 165 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 185 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 195 11 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 199 12 Re-Direct Examination by Ms. Susan Vella 205 13 14 MARK ARTHUR WATT, Sworn 15 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 217 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 230 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 349(A) Digital Map (hard copy) of North East 4 Section of Lambton County Map No. 1 12 5 349(B) Electronic copy of North East section 6 of Lambton County Map No. 1 98 7 350 Document No. 5000195 list of CACC 8 Staff involved (Standby request on 9 September 11/'95 27 10 351 Document No. 5000215 transcript from 11 tape of September 6/7/'95 186 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:03 a.m. 2 3 THIS REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 11 GEOFFREY FULTON CONNORS, Resumed 12 13 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: Good morning, Mr. Connors. 15 A: Good morning. 16 Q: I just want to take a couple of 17 minutes to recap what -- what we heard yesterday. 18 Is it correct that at approximately 19:00 19 hours on September the 6th, 1995, you received a request 20 from the OPP and Sergeant Reid in particular, to dispatch 21 two (2) ambulance units to the MNR parking lot? 22 A: That was -- that occurred at about 23 21:00 hours. 24 Q: No, the request? Was the request not 25 at 19:00 hours?

1 A: No. My shift started at seven 2 o'clock which is 19:00. 3 Q: Oh, quite right. Okay, thank you. 4 All right. 21:00 hours. Thank you very much. 5 And then at about 21:53 Units 1145 and 6 1146 arrived at the MNR parking lot? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: And then between approximately eleven 9 o'clock or 23:00 and 23:15, you receive an order of 10 sequence, a call, private citizen's call from the 11 Ipperwash Park store payphone which was disconnected? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: And you called the OPP and attempted 14 to -- to make several call-backs although unsuccessfully? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: You then received a 911 operator call 17 reporting that she has received a call advising two (2) 18 people have been shot originating from 9780 Army Camp 19 Road? 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: And then you receive advice from your 22 ambulance attendants 1146 or 1145 that they are at the 23 Army Camp Road and 21 Highway and may be transporting 24 with respect to Nick Cotrelle? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And at this point in time there is no 2 Ministry of Health ambulance unit at the MNR parking lot? 3 A: That's right. There was not. 4 Q: Okay. So, that by at least 11:15 and 5 likely a little before, I should be consistent, 23:15, 6 there was no ambulance unit at the MNR parking lot? 7 A: That's right. 8 Q: However, did you have other 9 ambulances on standby in the area of the Ipperwash Park 10 and Camp Ipperwash around 11:15? 11 A: Once the 1145 and 1146 were 12 committed, or they were tied up, we did have other units 13 sitting at the Forest Ambulance Station at that time. 14 Q: All right. And, perhaps just looking 15 at the map behind you, could you point out where the 16 ambulance -- Forest Ambulance Station is, I believe it - 17 - it may be marked? 18 A: Okay. Just give me a second. The -- 19 with the background, it's going to be taking me a while 20 to focus here. 21 Q: Sure. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 A: This is the town of Forest right

1 here. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You may want 3 to use the portable microphone -- 4 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- so we can 6 get the evidence on the record. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 9 Q: That's it, yeah. 10 A: Is it on? 11 Q: That's good. 12 A: Okay. 13 Q: Maybe use your laser printer so -- 14 pointer so that people can see. 15 A: Is that working at all? 16 Q: Yeah -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The battery 18 might be going on it. 19 THE WITNESS: It's -- it's very low, 20 it's... 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: Is it up there?

1 A: This is the town of Forest right 2 here. 3 Q: Okay. We'll put it up on the screen 4 as well, but maybe you could just identify the location 5 for the record and what streets -- what street is that? 6 Can -- can you identify -- 7 A: This street here? Is that what 8 you're talk -- referring to? 9 Q: I'm referencing the location of the 10 Forest Ambulance Station; isn't that what you were 11 referencing? 12 A: Forest Ambulance Station is on 13 Highway 21 north of -- just heading out of town. 14 Q: All right. And, can you see it on 15 that map? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 17 probably clearer if he marks it the screen. 18 MS. SUSAN VELLA: We -- we will but I 19 want him to first -- 20 THE WITNESS: It is right here, yes, I 21 didn't know it was marked. 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: Okay. And can you just identify it 25 for the record and I'll ask you to point it out over --

1 on the screen, which is an image of the -- the same map? 2 A: That'd be right here -- 3 Q: All right. And, it's labelled, 4 Forest Ambulance Station? 5 A: Right. It's -- I'm in a different 6 angle here, so it's difficult to see. 7 Q: And, what road is that on? 8 A: I noticed 21 Highway. I believe it 9 might be known as Rawlings Road, as well. 10 Q: All right. And, can you please mark, 11 Mr. Emery, the location of the Forest Ambulance Station 12 as identified by Mr. Connors? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Thank you. Commissioner, I'd like to 17 make the digital version of this map the next exhibit. 18 THE REGISTRAR: P-349, Your Honour. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-349. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-349(A): Digital Map (hard copy) of 22 North East Section of Lambton 23 County Map No. 1 24 25 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Now, I'll just advise

1 for the record that we will be referring to the same 2 image from time to time in this Witness' evidence and in 3 other witness' evidence and we intend to have a composite 4 at the end of the -- the testimony. Okay. Right. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: All right. Now, just -- just for 8 clarification in relation to the sequence of calls that I 9 read to you concerning the 23:00 time period; the private 10 citizen call from the Ipperwash Park store pay phone was, 11 in fact, the call, you received that advice from the 911 12 Operator? 13 A: She just passed on information to me 14 of what she had heard. 15 Q: All right. So, those two (2) events 16 are, in fact, the same event? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Thank you. All right. I'd like to 19 now play for you a tape of telephone conversations. And 20 for the record, the transcript of this conversation is 21 found at your Tab 8, Mr. Connors, but it's Inquiry 22 Document Number 5000215. And for ease of reference of 23 Counsel, the page references are 2662 to 2673. 24 And I wonder, Mr. Connors, would you first 25 look at the last page of that document, at page 2673?

1 A: Okay. 2 Q: Do you recognize your signature 3 there? 4 A: Yes, at the bottom. 5 Q: And the date of September 26th, 1995? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: And Judy Carnegie, you already 8 identified as the administrative assistant; do you -- do 9 you recognize that signature? 10 A: Yes, I do. 11 Q: And she was employed with your 12 organization as an administrative assistant? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And this indicates that a transcript 15 was typed from the cassette recordings of the original 16 tape on September 26th, 1995 at Wallaceburg. 17 Is this the tape that your ambulance 18 service had? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And just for the record, 21 this is -- this transcript, as will become self evident, 22 ends at about -- about nine (9) minutes short of the 23 actual call. So, for the last nine (9) minutes of the 24 call we'll all have to listen very carefully to the tape. 25 Also, note for the record that there will

1 be some overlap with the tape I played yesterday because 2 the source of this tape is the Wallaceburg Ambulance 3 Centre whereas the source of yesterday's tape was the OPP 4 command post. 5 6 (911 CALL PLAYED) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 9 Q: Okay. I'm going to -- I'm going 10 to just pause it there. Did you recognize the -- the two 11 (2) speakers on that? 12 A: Sergeant Cousineau and my dispatcher 13 Jack Knight. 14 Q: Okay. And so where we see, they had 15 designation OPP, that Sergeant Cousineau, to the best of 16 your knowledge? 17 A: That's right. That's correct. 18 Q: And the designation of Jack, is Jack 19 Knight. 20 A: Sergeant Cousineau's the main player 21 and there is another individual from the OPP there as 22 well. 23 Q: In the background? 24 A: He answered the phone I think. 25 Q: Oh, okay. Right. Thank you. And

1 can you just tell us what -- in a nutshell what just 2 transpired, practically speaking? 3 A: Sergeant Cousineau called our centre 4 basically to inquire regarding the incident at Ipperwash 5 and advising that he requires two (2) ambulances. 6 Q: All right. And for the record, the 7 first line of the transcript indicates that Mr. Knight 8 answers the phone by saying, "Ambulance 23:06". 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: And what does the 23:06 stand for? 11 A: That's the time of the day right 12 then. 13 Q: And so was that his standard practice 14 to answer the phone and then with -- with the time? 15 A: Yes, it is. 16 Q: All right. So, for the record it 17 would appear at least from this source that this 18 conversation begins at 11:06 and runs continuous to the 19 end of the thirty-nine (39) minute tape. All right. 20 21 (911 CALL PLAYED) 22 23 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 24 Q: All right. Just those last two (2) 25 statements; the first voice, whose was that?

1 A: That was mine. 2 Q: All right. And, the second voice? 3 A: Was Jack Knight's. 4 Q: And, so this signifies that the two 5 (2) of you were obviously in close proximity while all 6 this is taking place? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: Thank you. 9 10 (911 CALL PLAYED) 11 12 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 13 Q: All right. And the reference to 14 1146, that's the ambulance unit? 15 A: That's right, yes, it is. 16 Q: And, so the speaker was the ambulance 17 attendant from that unit saying they could be 18 transporting? 19 A: That's the paramedic, yes. 20 Q: All right. Thank you. 21 And -- and, when he says he, "may be 22 transporting," what does that mean? 23 A: It surprised us. We didn't expect 24 them to be down there and we didn't even know they were 25 being utilized at that time.

1 Q: All right. 2 A: So, once they said they could be 3 transporting, we basically had to realign all our ducks; 4 we didn't know what -- for coverage, etcetera. 5 Q: All right. 6 7 (911 CALL PLAYED) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA 10 Q: All right. So, at this point, 11 essentially, you've got Sergeant Reid on one (1) line, 12 Sergeant Cousineau on the other line and Mr. Knight is 13 saying to Sergeant Cousineau, Don't hang up, and he's 14 presumably having a conversation now with Sergeant Reid, 15 or you are? 16 A: I'm -- I believe I would be. 17 Q: Okay, thank you. 18 19 (911 CALL PLAYED) 20 21 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA 22 Q: Okay. So, at this -- this past 23 series of comments, it appears that what's going on is -- 24 is you've got two (2) ambulances that have been 25 apparently dispatched to a location; you're not sure if

1 one or both will be transporting an injured party and the 2 instructions coming back from the OPP is to ensure that 3 there are no lower -- no fewer than two (2) ambulance 4 units available at that location. 5 Now, do you now what location was being 6 referred to? 7 A: I'm -- we are presuming the MNR 8 parking lot. 9 Q: All right. That's what you were 10 assuming at the time? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: All right. And, just for the record, 13 we are now at the four (4) minute and twenty-four (24) 14 second mark at this point of the tape. 15 16 (911 CALL PLAYED) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: Now, just in that series there, 20 here's at -- the OPP are in -- is that -- would that be 21 Sergeant Reid? 22 A: That would be Sergeant Reid. 23 Q: And he's speaking to you at this 24 time? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And he indicates, "don't send the 2 ambulances now"? 3 A: Don't send the ambulances; that's 4 right. 5 Q: And so what did you understand that 6 to mean; don't send them where? 7 A: I -- I'm presuming -- when he asked 8 if they're moving and we asked the ambulance crews if 9 they were moving, I'm just presuming that they had 10 feedback back from some of their people, wondering why 11 the ambulances are moving. I'm just guessing, because 12 I'm not sure. 13 But -- and that's why he's saying, don't 14 send them any -- any close -- anywhere further in. 15 Meanwhile, we didn't -- we didn't direct them to do 16 anything anyways. 17 Q: So, you understood that comment to 18 relate to Units 1145 and 1146? 19 A: That's right. 20 Q: Okay. 21 22 (911 CALL PLAYED) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: All right. I just want to make in

1 the record that we are now at marker seven (7) minute and 2 thirteen (13) seconds into this conversation as it -- to 3 start. 4 5 (911 CALL PLAYED) 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 8 Q: Okay. Now, that -- that part of the 9 conversation ends at marker, fourteen (14) minutes and 10 fifty-five (55) seconds, into this tape, and that part of 11 the conversation was approximately six (6) to seven (7) 12 minutes, this -- this exchange involving the 911 operator 13 and the police officers. 14 Now, there seems, from that passage, to 15 have been some confusion on the part of the OPP and -- 16 and yourself with respect to where 9780 Army Camp Road 17 was? 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And, do you know now that that was 20 the address and is the address of the Ipperwash 21 Provincial Park? 22 A: Yes, that's right. I knew it was, 23 however, multi-tasking, doing various things, I didn't 24 give that information to Sergeant Cousineau. I should 25 have, but I didn't -- I was caught up with something else

1 and I didn't provide that information to him. 2 Q: And, it seems that there was some 3 confusion with respect to the Army Camp versus Stoney 4 Point and whether they were one and the same place? 5 A: I believe -- I'm -- I'm not sure 6 whether they are. I believe they are, but I'm not 7 familiar with the -- the names that people that reside in 8 the area would be. 9 Q: Fair enough. And is it fair to say 10 that with -- with some notice, this might have been 11 information that you would have ascertained in advance of 12 these events? 13 A: Can you repeat that? 14 Q: With some notice that there was going 15 to be an incident, perhaps, or something transpiring in 16 the evening of September the 6th, would you have 17 undertaken to -- to get the addresses of the relevant 18 locations? 19 A: If we were -- if this was scheduled 20 sort of thing, is that what you mean? 21 Q: Yes, if you were given the head's-up 22 that something might transpire in and around the Park 23 that night? 24 A: No. 25 Q: No?

1 A: I don't -- I don't think it's -- it's 2 really not relevant because we -- they -- they can't 3 forecast where something like this is going to occur. 4 Q: All right. Okay. And, it appears 5 that towards the end of that conversation, there's an 6 exchange just at the very end where you ask the OPP 7 officer: 8 "Do you need more than two (2) 9 ambulances down there?" 10 This is on page 5. 11 A: Right. 12 Q: And, the response is: 13 "No ambulances, just get a phone 14 number, or just a phone number." 15 How did you interpret that response? 16 A: Just that he requires the 243-1255 17 number. 18 Q: And, that he didn't require further 19 ambulances -- 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: -- to that location? 22 A: Right. 23 Q: All right. And, in the meantime, you 24 -- you make a reference to someone called Dan; you say 25 Darcy or Dan?

1 A: Right. 2 Q: Who are those -- 3 A: What I'm -- what I'm doing there is - 4 - this is how hectic things can be in there. What we're 5 doing is, it's a very busy night -- what we're doing is, 6 I'm conducting -- I'm on the phone with Sergeant 7 Cousineau. 8 A: Yes? 9 A: I'm communicating with my dispatcher 10 Jack; you can hear that. I'm talking with the 911 11 Centre. I'm doing other business in Kent County which 12 isn't on our tape and I believe I -- prior to this I even 13 spoke with Mr. Gilpin; we're arranging coverage. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: So, Dan and Darcy our other crew 16 members. So, besides doing all this other business, I'm 17 trying to phone other people in for coverage as well. 18 Q: All right. And assuming that this -- 19 that the start of this tape commenced at 11:06 or 23:06 20 p.m. on -- on September the 6th, we are now at the -- 21 approximately the 23:21 or 11:21 p.m. mark in this series 22 of events. All right I'll resume play then. 23 24 (911 CALL PLAYED) 25

1 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 2 Q: All right. So -- just so that we all 3 understand then what just transpired; firstly, was that 4 Jack Knight who was speaking? 5 A: That's right on the radio. 6 Q: And -- and this was -- could you 7 identify the person who is calling, associated with Unit 8 1146? 9 A: That would be John Tedball. 10 Q: John Tedball. And he has indicated 11 that both his unit and 1145 are on a Code 4 to the -- to 12 the Highway 21 and Army Camp Road area? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. 15 16 (911 CALL PLAYED) 17 18 CONTINUED BY SUSAN VELLA: 19 A: Susan? 20 Q: Okay, yeah. 21 A: See, even prior to Sergeant Cousineau 22 saying, you're going to have to scramble some more, 23 that's what I was doing already, speaking with Dan and 24 Darcy. We were trying to get more ambulances on the 25 down.

1 Q: All right. 2 A: On the way down. 3 Q: And -- just tell me, you said those 4 were crewmen? 5 A: Crew members. 6 Q: Crew members. And what -- were they 7 ambulance attendants? 8 A: They're paramedics as well, yes. 9 Q: And -- and what units were they 10 associated with; do you recall? 11 A: I think Darcy -- if I can go back to 12 -- I'm trying to think. The ambulance commitment form; I 13 think it's Section 8 or 6 of mine. 14 Q: Perhaps you could go to Tab 10 which 15 is a list of all of the duty roster for that evening and 16 it doesn't give us the first names but it gives us the 17 last names so perhaps that can be of assistance. 18 This in Inquiry Document Number 5000195; 19 it's page number 2529. It's entitled, CACC Staff 20 Involved. 21 A: Okay. Darcy referred to -- he would 22 have been Unit 1 -- I'm sorry, 1505. 23 Q: 1505. And what's his last name? 24 A: Thompson. 25 Q: Okay.

1 A: And Dan, that would have been Dan -- 2 oh, can't remember his last name, Griffith, and obviously 3 he was unavailable. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: So, he's -- he's not a participant in 6 this. 7 Q: So, you were trying to reach him but 8 you couldn't -- couldn't get him. And is this -- just 9 while we're here, is this list an accurate depiction of - 10 - of what units you had available to you the night of 11 September the 6th, 1995? 12 A: Yes, 13 Q: And with -- they're associated crew 14 members. 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: All right. Perhaps we could make 17 this the next exhibit. 18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-350, Your 19 Honour. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-350. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-350: Document No. 5000195 list of 23 CACC Staff involved (Standby 24 request on September 11/'95 25

1 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 2 Q: Okay. Perhaps, we can go back to Tab 3 8 please which is the transcript, please, which is the 4 transcript 5000215 at page 2667. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: Right there. Okay. That's it, 9 great. Okay. And we're at the fifteen (15) minute, 10 fifty-eight (58) second mark. 11 12 (911 CALL PLAYED) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: All right. Now, this -- I think we 16 reviewed at least the police end of this -- this 17 conversation yesterday. Is this the -- the report with 18 respect to Marcia Simon. 19 A: In the last conversation that we've 20 just finished up here? 21 Q: Yes, about the lady saying that there 22 were people shot and police in the background. 23 A: You know what; I'm really not sure. 24 Q: All right, and for the record, this 25 conversation occurred at about 23:22, assuming again,

1 that the correct start time is 23:06. 2 3 (911 CALL PLAYED) 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 6 Q: All right. Now, just before we get 7 on to the next part, do you recognize the voice of the -- 8 the person you were speaking with? 9 A: It's Mr. Gilpin. 10 Q: All right, and he's indicating that 11 he spoke with Sergeant Cousineau and then he wanted his 12 unit to respond to 9780 Army Camp Road? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay, thank you. 15 16 (911 CALL PLAYED) 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 19 Q: All right. So, in the last piece 20 that we've just heard there's a conversation involving 21 Sergeant Cousineau and yourself, and was that also Jack 22 Knight in the background? 23 A: Yes, I was speaking with him just 24 across the room. 25 Q: And -- and Mr. Gilpin we'd already

1 identified. Now, here you're receiving information from 2 Mr. Gilpin as to what they've been asked to do. 3 A: Right. 4 Q: All right. And you have -- in 5 response to a question by Sergeant Cousineau, you 6 indicate that they would be -- your units would be 7 transporting to the Strathroy Hospital? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. And we've talked 10 yesterday about how that decision was made. 11 A: Right. 12 Q: All right. Maybe you can just repeat 13 that again, for the record? 14 A: We -- through -- it wasn't a decision 15 that was made hastily. We just decided that the 16 proximity, obviously noting the transfer time from 1146 17 when they transported Nick Cotrelle to Strathroy, it was 18 like -- I believe it was like twenty-six (26) minutes and 19 I know it's -- even running in a -- a Code 4 fast pace, 20 it's more than that to go to Sarnia General. 21 So, the decision was made earlier to go to 22 Strathroy. 23 Q: All right. And this was understood 24 by your -- your crew members at that time? 25 A: No. It's -- they -- they were aware

1 of that, too. They know the travel distances. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: But, if the -- if the situation arose 4 that somebody asked me, if it was a crew member or -- or 5 anyone else, we are prepared to suggest Strathroy. 6 Q: But, didn't you also have a 7 conversation with Matt Gilpin in advance of this -- of 8 this -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- occurrence and, with him, decided 11 that Strathroy was the appropriate hospital? 12 A: I don't recall that. I remember the 13 conversation, but in working cooperative with the -- with 14 him -- with us, rather -- 15 Q: Right. 16 A: -- he would have been more 17 knowledgeable about that than I would have. 18 Q: Is that something that would be 19 reflected in your incident report? 20 A: It's quite possible. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: All right. Perhaps -- I'm sorry to 25 digress here, but perhaps we can go to Tab 5 of your

1 document. It's Inquiry Document Number 1002002. And 2 it's eighty-one (81) pages in, approximately, so that's 3 Front Number 9598. 4 It's entitled, Daily Dispatch Log Summary. 5 It's dated September 6th, 1995, 21:37 hours. 6 Now, this is a series of -- of documents 7 that are entitled, Daily Dispatch Log Summary. It has 8 your number in it; 98761. 9 Does that mean that you inputted this 10 information? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And you have inputted it, at least 13 starting at 21:37. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: I see there's -- there's updates or 18 modifications? 19 A: Right. It all -- for this evening, 20 it starts at 21:00 hours and then -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- I know what you're referring to 23 then. 24 Q: Okay, fair enough. And then it says, 25 "last modified, 23:59", so just -- just one (1) minute

1 before midnight -- 2 A: Where -- 3 Q: -- and -- 4 A: -- oh, yes, okay, yeah. 5 Q: Okay, so that's when you put 6 additional information in there? 7 A: Hmm hmm. 8 Q: And it records, Mac Gilpin called at 9 22:50, advising -- and I assume it would have been at 10 22:50; is that right? 11 A: This is one of the things that I'm 12 doing through the -- through the evening -- 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: -- when I get an opportunity. 15 Q: All right. This is when you inputted 16 it? 17 A: Yes, at 22:50 I did. 18 Q: Or press -- pressed the enter button? 19 A: Yeah. 20 Q: Okay. 21 "Mac Gilpin called advising that Ted 22 Slomer who was also a medic with the 23 OPP is also present. Mac has inquired 24 what hospital was closest. We believe 25 that Strathroy Emergency is the closest

1 to the Ipperwash area." 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So, you had a conversation with Mr. 4 Gilpin, presumably while he was still at the MNR parking 5 lot and having a conversation with Ted Slomer? 6 A: I don't know if he had a conversation 7 with Ted Slomer, but he -- he was probably just making 8 note that Slomer was with him. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: We knew him from previous ambulance 11 dealings? 12 Q: Had you? All right. Thank you. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: And just for the record, that was 17 Exhibit P-345. I wonder if we could move back to the 18 transcript at your Tab 8, Inquiry document number 19 5000215, page 2668. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 Q: All right. Great. 24 25 (911 CALL PLAYED)

1 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 2 Q: All right. Now, I just want to make 3 specific reference to this. This is at the marker 4 nineteen (19) minutes and twenty-three (23) seconds into 5 the tape. 6 We see there is a background conversation 7 with -- a statement by Jack Knight: 8 "Dispatched Unit 1147, Code 8 to OPP 9 checkpoint Ipperwash Road." 10 1147 was one of your other units? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: And at that point Jack Knight is -- 13 is advising 1147 to go to the OPP checkpoint on a 14 standby? 15 A: That's right for additional coverage. 16 And they were going from the Forest station. 17 Q: From the Forest ambulance station? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: And again, is this the -- is this the 20 MNR parking lot then? 21 A: Where they were directed to? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Thank you. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And that would have been about 11:25 4 or 23:25, just for the record that this ambulance was 5 dispatched down to the MNR parking lot. We'll resume 6 now. 7 8 (911 CALL PLAYED) 9 10 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA 11 Q: All right. Just before we get to 12 that, just so that I -- we understand, throughout this 13 whole period of time you're trying to reach 243-8953? 14 A: Yes. Either that one or 1255; 243- 15 1255. 16 Q: Okay. And ultimately you were able 17 to get -- or at least the operator was able to reconnect 18 but the person didn't stay on the line. All right. 19 20 (911 CALL PLAYED) 21 22 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 23 Q: All right. Now, that conversa -- 24 first of all, can you identify the caller? 25 A: I believe that was Mr. Veens.

1 Q: All right. 2 A: Or, it was Mr. Veens. 3 Q: And, for the record, assuming again 4 that this started at 23:06, that's about twenty (20) 5 minutes and twenty-five (25) seconds into the tape, which 6 would make the time approximate that this call commenced 7 was about -- about 23:27? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. And, there appeared to be 10 some -- some confusion with respect to the location of 11 this residence, perhaps you can comment on that? 12 A: There -- there was no confusion on 13 his part by any means. But, if I can set the stage here, 14 at my -- at the computer stations, we both have two (2) 15 monitors to work with and the left monitor has one (1) 16 session as you -- they're -- they're referred to as and 17 it's just like pages. 18 There's only one (1) session on the left 19 monitor. On the right monitor there's five (5) and with 20 a series of keys we can flip through different pages on 21 the one (1) monitor. 22 And so, on the left monitor I always had 23 a, it's called a status queue, it just lists all the 24 ambulances that were under our direction that night and 25 what they're doing and it updates continuously for every

1 -- every action that we do within the computer, so we can 2 see at a glance what's going on. 3 On the other monitor, I'm dealing with -- 4 I have -- remember our shift log that we spoke about with 5 Mr. Gilpin at 22:50? 6 Q: Yes. 7 A: That was on one (1) of the pages. I 8 kept that up because I was continually updating that. 9 On another page, there was the previous 10 Ipperwash 9780 Army Camp Road call. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: That was left up on the other page 13 and I also had other business from Kent County on the 14 other pages. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: So, I lost my focus. I know that 17 they called in. I initially saw the information from 18 Nauvoo Road, hit the appropriate key, but I didn't drop 19 it, basically, into the template. 20 I was what we refer to as toggling around, 21 going into other pages, other sessions on that -- on that 22 monitor. And when it -- when it comes up from the Veens 23 residence, it doesn't say they're out in a rural area, it 24 says -- I'm sorry, what's the address again? 25 Q: 6840 Nauvoo Road.

1 A: 6840 Nauvoo Road. 2 Q: Yeah. 3 A: Arkona/Warwick Township. I was 4 focussed on the Arkona and that's why I was misled, not 5 by the caller by any means, just looking at that. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: And then, here I go again, I'm going 8 to another page trying to find the call where -- the 9 Nauvoo Road. I see a template, I didn't look exactly 10 where I should have. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: And that was the stale call from 13 twenty (20) -- from the -- from the Park Store on Army 14 Camp Road. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: That's why I asked Veens, Okay, so 17 you're at -- you're at Ipperwash Park. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: I lost my focus initially. 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: Then, once I realized where he was, 22 we got down to business and I told him the ambulance was 23 on the way, the call was committed to the system -- or, 24 initially, remember I told Jack, I said, Disregard this 25 one?

1 Q: Yes, says, Cancel that one. 2 A: Cancel that one, because that was to 3 the -- 4 Q: The Park store. 5 A: -- the Park store. So, I told him, 6 Disregard that one; that's -- that's not the one you 7 want. Then, I realized what I had done, so I committed 8 the call for Nauvoo Road to my dispatcher. 9 Q: Okay. And, that's the typing that 10 we're hearing in the background is you working, inputting 11 that information? 12 A: Yes. Right. 13 Q: Okay. Thank you. 14 A: That's the confusion that -- in the 15 beginning. 16 Q: Thank you. 17 18 (911 CALL PLAYED) 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: Okay. And at that point, we're at 22 twenty-three (23) minutes and nineteen (19) seconds into 23 the tape. 24 Now, the -- to recap this -- this 25 discussion, you were having a conversation with Mac

1 Gilpin at the outset of it. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And he's trying to give you a status 4 update as to where he is and what he is doing. 5 A: That's right. 6 Q: And it appears from this that -- that 7 he also was aware of the second gunshot victim? 8 A: He -- obviously he was, yes. 9 Q: All right. And he indicates to you 10 that the Nauvoo Road call should be given to Unit 1147? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: So, that's a different unit from his; 13 he was 1146? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: Okay. And then there's a further 16 conversation between Jack Knight and the attendant from 17 1145. 18 A: Right. 19 Q: And this is the unit that is now 20 transporting Nick Cotrelle? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. And then Jack Knight 23 calls a code 4 in, with respect to 6840 Nauvoo Road, and 24 he presumably assigns that to a unit? 25 A: He assigns that to 1145.

1 Q: All right. And given Mr. Gilpin's 2 advice that 1147 was closer and should be given the call, 3 do you have any explanation as to why it was assigned 4 instead to 1145? 5 A: Mr. Gilpin wasn't aware that we had 6 already moved 1147. That was the Thedford vehicle -- 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: -- from the Forest station on the way 9 down to the MNR. 10 Q: All right. So -- 11 A: So, they weren't aware -- had they 12 been at the Forest station, that's right, they would have 13 been a more appropriate vehicle. 14 Q: Okay. And 1145 and -- or 1146, I 15 should say, is at Army Camp Road and 21 Highway -- 16 A: That's right. 17 Q: -- at this point, so he's a little 18 closer than the unit on it's way to the MNR parking lot? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right, thank you. 21 22 (911 CALL PLAYED) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: All right. Now, here you're having a

1 conversation with someone identified as Ron. Who is 2 that? 3 A: That is Ron Van Hee. Ron is at 4 London Communications Centre. 5 Q: All right. And what's the purpose of 6 this call? 7 A: This call is -- basically, what we're 8 doing is we're borrowing a couple of their units for our 9 use. And we usually do it over the computer or the 10 telephone or, rather, both -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: -- but Ron had already been briefed 13 on what was going on and he -- he's in the business and 14 so he knew the -- the urgency and he had already been 15 made aware that may need extra vehicles from him. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: Now, do you want me to go over this 18 double dispatching business? 19 Q: I'd love to know what that is. 20 A: Okay. Double dispatching is: We can 21 -- we can call up and ask them on the telephone to borrow 22 an ambulance, but it has to be recorded in the ambulance 23 system and so what we do is we generate, basically, it's 24 a call and it's a request from another ambulance dispatch 25 centre to use one of their ambulances.

1 Q: Okay. So -- so, it's when -- it's 2 when the request is coming from one ambulance service to 3 another, so in that sense there are two (2) dispatches 4 happening; you to the other ambulance service and the 5 ambulance server -- service to their unit? 6 A: Right. 7 Q: Okay. And just for the record, we're 8 now at approximately 23:39 or 23:30 hours on September 9 the 6th, 1995. 10 11 (911 CALL PLAYED) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 14 Q: All right. Now, in this part of the 15 call, you're advising Sergeant Cousineau of the fact that 16 you've received this -- this request for an ambulance? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And it's about twenty-seven (27) 19 minutes into the tape, and can I ask you, was the line 20 being held open with respect to the caller, the Veens, 21 from Nauvoo Road? 22 A: Yes. He was on hold this time. 23 Q: And why did you keep him on hold 24 during this time? 25 A: I kept him on hold because I needed -

1 - I wanted to get more information from him. It didn't 2 seem like there was a severe threat right there at that 3 period in time, like, within the residence. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: And I had some business to take care 6 of obviously and some -- some people to notify, and then 7 I do eventually get back and speak with the caller. 8 Q: And is it so that it's quicker for 9 you to reach this person; they're on the line so you 10 scan -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- immediately speak to them? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: All right. And this would be at 15 about 23 -- 23:32 approximately? 16 A: Yes. I do make it known to the 17 caller later on that they won't be able to call out. 18 Q: All right. Well, we'll -- we'll get 19 to that. 20 A: All right. 21 22 (911 CALL PLAYED) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: All right. Now, just before we get

1 onto the next part, obviously there was a different 2 speaker or caller on this line; who did you understand 3 that to be? 4 A: A female. I don't know if it's Mrs. 5 Veens or not, but... 6 Q: Okay. It's the same line, obviously? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And, you ask whether the 9 police are there yet? 10 A: Right. 11 Q: Did you have an expectation that the 12 police would be dispatched to this home? 13 A: I notified the police and it's just - 14 - it's an understanding that -- we don't take it for 15 granted, mind you, but whenever there's an indication 16 that there has been some violence or there's a -- a 17 concern for the ambulance crew's safety, the police are 18 always notified; that is just, it's mandated, it's -- 19 it's policy and it just goes without question. 20 Q: All right. And, what's the purpose 21 of notifying the police, then? 22 A: We notified the police a) of the call 23 that took place. We were going -- we had an ambulance on 24 the way to help a victim who was at this scene at this 25 time in a vehicle and to respond for security for the

1 ambulance crew who was on the way. 2 Q: All right. And, just for the record, 3 we're now at about 23:00 -- 34:00 hours or 11:34 p.m., 4 again assuming that the start time of this tape is 5 correct. 6 7 (911 CALL PLAYED) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 10 Q: All right. So, now the male caller 11 from Nauvoo Road is back on the line and you've been 12 advised that the patient has left and that they don't 13 know which way that they've left -- what direction 14 they've taken? 15 A: Correct. 16 Q: And, for the record, this is 17 approximately twenty-nine (29) minutes and twenty-three 18 (23) seconds or thereabouts into this telephone call or 19 about 23:34 -- 35, excuse me, and you disconnect at this 20 time? 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: Had you, in fact, sent a cancellation 23 of that dispatch of 11:45? 24 A: Not at this point, no. 25 Q: All right. So, they were continuing

1 en route as far as you know? 2 A: Yes. 3 4 (911 CALL PLAYED) 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 7 Q: All right. So, there you're having a 8 conversation with your attendant at 11:45 and as at this 9 time, at least, he's instructed to carry on to the scene 10 at Nauvoo Road? 11 A: That's right. 12 Q: And you are about to speak with the 13 police? 14 A: Yes. You can also see that the 15 paramedic there had inquired about the OPP. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: And that's -- it's just -- it's not 18 taken for granted, like I said, but it's just second 19 nature that the police are notified and they attend with 20 the ambulance in that sense. 21 Q: All right. Thank you. 22 23 (911 CALL PLAYED) 24 25 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA:

1 Q: All right. Now, at this moment in 2 time then, is -- you appear to be cancelling the request 3 -- dispatch, I should say, for 1145 to go to Nauvoo Road? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: And for the record, this is thirty- 6 one (31) minutes and seventeen (17) seconds into the 7 playing of the tape, and assuming my math isn't too 8 terribly off, then that would be at approximately 11:37 9 p.m. or 23:37 hours approximately, that you cancelled the 10 call? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. And can you tell me what 13 the reason was for cancelling the call at this time? 14 A: We -- this is normal practice when it 15 appears that there is no patient at a location where we 16 were told earlier; we -- we discontinue the transport. 17 There -- it's a -- it's just the Ministry 18 -- we just don't continue on, especially if we've been 19 told that the -- there is absolutely no patient there and 20 we were told that they had left. 21 We just don't continue on with lights and 22 sirens to endanger the crew, anyone else on the road. 23 It's just not a practice that's -- that's maintained. 24 Q: All right. Now, had the OPP located 25 this car enroute to this vehicle transporting whom we

1 know now to have been Dudley George, would you have 2 expected to have received a dispatch or a request from 3 the OPP? 4 A: Certainly. 5 Q: And -- and at that time, would you 6 have dispatched an ambulance to meet that car? 7 A: We would have tried to, not intercept 8 them, but certainly we would have gone to where we were 9 directed to -- 10 Q: All right. 11 A: -- had the OPP met them. 12 Q: Thank you. Now, as you can see, 13 Commissioner, that's the end of the transcript but there 14 are a few minutes left on this tape and I think, for the 15 record, we should play the balance of the tape. 16 17 (911 CALL PLAYED) 18 19 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 20 Q: And for the record, it appears that 21 you called back Nauvoo Road? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And at whose request did you call 24 back? 25 A: The OPP's.

1 Q: And what did -- what was the purpose 2 of that call? 3 A: They were -- they inquired whether 4 they had advised us, or me, whether we had -- they had 5 seen any weapons and -- 6 Q: All right. And -- 7 A: -- I just confirmed that in the 8 telephone call. 9 Q: All right. 10 11 (911 CALL PLAYED) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: All right. Now, is that your -- your 15 voice? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And you were calling the OPP at that 18 point in time? 19 A: I'm advising Sergeant Cousineau with 20 what he asked. 21 Q: And you advise that these people did 22 not appear to be armed? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Thank you. 25

1 (911 CALL PLAYED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 4 Q: Now, I wonder is you can help us. 5 That appears to be background communication in which a 6 police officer is advising that he's on -- or at least 7 someone is advising that the police officer is on an 8 ambulance enroute to Strathroy. 9 Do you know which unit that was? 10 A: No. 11 Q: All right. Do -- 12 A: I have a -- I can presume but... 13 Q: What would you presume? 14 A: I'm just wondering whether it was a 15 St. John's unit. 16 Q: And what would lead you to that 17 presumption? 18 A: Because I confirmed with John Tedball 19 in Unit 1146 that there was not an OPP officer 20 communicating with us at that point -- 21 Q: All right. Thank you. 22 A: -- on a cell phone. 23 Q: And for the record that bit of 24 conversation is at about thirty-two (32) minutes and 25 fifty-one (51) seconds into the tape.

1 (911 CALL PLAYED) 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 4 Q: All right. I just want to stop it 5 there. 6 Now, I'll just note for the record that 7 the time of the call advising of the police officer in 8 the ambulance was about 11:39 or 23:39. And what we've 9 just heard is, there was a conversation with 1146, I 10 believe, Unit 46? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And then a conversation with the 13 attendant from 1145. 14 A: Right. 15 Q: 1146 confirming that they're enroute 16 to Strathroy and that would be with Mr. Cotrelle? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And 1145 indicating that they are now 19 at Ravenswood Road and positioned there. 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: All right. And -- and I guess -- are 22 they now -- do you know what direction they're heading in 23 at this point? Are they -- 24 A: They're heading back, I'm presuming 25 northbound, after being cancelled from the Nauvoo Road

1 call. 2 Q: All right. And do you know where 3 they were being posting back to? 4 A: It was our intention to have them go 5 in back for coverage again towards the MNR. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: And I should say that, for the 8 record, we're at about thirty-three (33) minutes and 9 thirty-six (36) seconds into the tape. 10 11 (911 CALL PLAYED) 12 13 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 14 Q: All right. And, just that last bit, 15 that was -- was that a conversation with the OPP 16 officer? 17 A: The very last one? 18 Q: Yeah. 19 A: The last one was Sergeant Cousineau, 20 yes. 21 Q: Sergeant Cousineau. All right. And, 22 just for the record, we do have an excerpt of that 23 transcript in the logger-tape from the Command Post. 24 All right. And then the next -- I -- I 25 just cut off when -- somebody mentioned 11:45 and we're

1 at the thirty-five (35) minute ten (10) second mark into 2 the tape. 3 A: I should also mention that the -- the 4 previous telephone calls I made, and I spoke with the 5 fellow by the name of Doc; his -- he's in London Dispatch 6 as well. And so, basically what I'm doing is passing 7 information over to him that 1146 is on the way to 8 Strathroy with Nick Cotrelle. 9 Q: Okay. Thank you. And, were you 10 also, at this point, with Mr. Knight shuffling cars 11 around, redirecting ambulances? 12 A: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. 13 Q: All right. So, when you said, Move 14 Parkhill to one other location, you're -- you're trying 15 to bring them back into the Ipperwash area? 16 A: That's right. It's just like -- they 17 have always referred to it as, just like a big chess game 18 type thing and you're -- you're always moving people 19 around into different coverages and for different means. 20 Q: Okay. Thank you. 21 22 (911 CALL PLAYED) 23 24 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 25 Q: All right. Now, we're at the --

1 approximately thirty-six (36) minutes and fifty-nine (59) 2 seconds into the tape or approximately 11:42 or 23:42 3 hundred hours. 4 Is -- is it -- is it true that there was 5 no MOH ambulance units down at the MNR parking lot at 6 this time? 7 A: At what time do you have now? 8 Q: Approximately 11:42 at night. 9 A: No, I think there's at least one (1) 10 down there and there's another one on the way. 11 Q: Is that -- is that not what I just 12 heard that, on here, that there were no one -- there were 13 no units down at the MNR parking lot? 14 Somebody made that comment; do you know 15 who that was? 16 A: Maybe that was me. I'm not -- I'm 17 not -- I was thinking about something else and -- 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: -- about our coverage there. 20 Q: All right. Is it your belief that 21 there was one (1) unit down there by 11:42 at night? 22 A: I believe there was, yes. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: I think that's either 1140 -- 1147 or 25 1505.

1 Q: All right. Well, we will look at the 2 -- your ambulance dispatch logs in a moment to try to 3 fill in a little bit of the detail here. 4 A: All right. 5 Q: Now, was that a discussion you had 6 with Sergeant Cousineau concerning how many ambulances 7 were available and -- 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: -- whether they were at the parking 10 lot? Okay. Thank you. 11 12 (911 CALL PLAYED) 13 14 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 15 Q: All right. And for the record that's 16 -- that concludes the thirty-nine (39) minutes and twelve 17 (12) second segment of telephone -- recorded telephone 18 calls. 19 Now, having heard the comments with 20 respect to -- well, let me ask you this, did you hear the 21 comment that 1145 and 1505 units were dispatched to the 22 MNR parking lot? 23 A: 1147 and 1505, yes. 24 Q: Yes, thank you. And who made that 25 dispatch?

1 A: Jack Knight. 2 Q: And that was at approximately 3 thirty-seven (37) minutes and fifty-five (55) seconds 4 into the tape, which would make it approximately 23:40 5 hours; is that right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And so is that likely when those cars 8 were dispatched to the MNR -- 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: -- parking lot? And so from the time 11 that 11 -- units 1145 and 1146 left the parking lot to -- 12 to this point in time, there was no MOH ambulance units 13 in the parking lot to your knowledge? 14 A: To my knowledge, that's right, no. 15 Q: Thank you. 16 Commissioner, I wonder if we might take 17 the morning break at this time and when we come back 18 we'll proceed with the logs. Thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 20 We'll take a break. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm 22 sorry, I should have made that an exhibit, that tape. 23 Oh, it was an exhibit, excuse me. 24 For the record that CD was Exhibit P-157. 25 I apologize for that. Thank you.

1 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 2 for fifteen (15) minutes. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 10:34 a.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 10:57 a.m. 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 8 resumed. Please be seated. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: All right. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Fine. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 17 Q: Mr. Connors, I understand that you 18 would have dispatch logs or ambulance logs that would 19 reflect the information concerning when ambulances were 20 notified and dispatched, et cetera? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: All right. Perhaps, you would go to 23 Tab 5 of your binder. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 Q: This is Exhibit P-345, but it's 2 Inquiry Document Number 1002002. I believe that's in 3 Volume I of the documents. And I'll be using the Front 4 Number so that people can follow along. 5 All right. Now, perhaps we could go to 6 Number 9531 first, about fourteen (14) pages into your 7 document. And this is information relative to Unit 1146 8 with Mr. Watts and Mr. Tedball as the attendants? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: Do you know which of these two (2) 11 were -- was a driver that night? 12 A: I'm -- it would have been John 13 Tedball. 14 Q: All right. 15 A: Only because I was communicating with 16 him when he was on the way to Strathroy with Nick 17 Cotrelle. 18 Q: Okay, fine. And I know we to this 19 yesterday but is this is the initial -- their first 20 assignment, if you will, for the evening of September the 21 6th? 22 A: Yes. This is the first request. 23 Q: And this indicates that 1146 was 24 notified at 20:56 and I think you indicated that this is 25 the unit that went down to the MNR parking lot and

1 arrived at -- they were enroute by about 21:41 and they 2 had arrived by about 21:53? 3 A: I think we -- we went over this and I 4 think we have to look at 1145 for the time they arrived. 5 See in the very bottom there it says, 6 "Enroute and Arrived Scene", next to the Remarks? 7 Q: Yeah, I do recall going through that. 8 Yeah, okay. 9 A: It would be just shortly after nine 10 o'clock p.m. 11 Q: We go over to -- sorry, to 9536. And 12 just for everyone's ease of convenience, you might recall 13 yesterday, Counsel, that I provided you with a typed two 14 (2) page document that Mr. Connors prepared. And we're 15 going to be following this document. In terms of the 16 documents we're going to announce, you'll have a record 17 of that. Will be relevant for the map as well. Okay. 18 And at 9536, that's the initial assignment 19 for Unit 1145 -- 20 A: That's right. 21 Q: -- with Mr. Diceasor and Mr. Gilpin? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And who was the driver that evening 24 for that assignment? 25 A: I believe that would have been Mr.

1 Gilpin. 2 Q: All right. And it would appear from 3 this record that Mr. Diceasor and Mr. Gilpin, they had 4 been notified later in the evening of this assignment, 5 21:34? 6 A: Yes. At the time they only requested 7 one (1). 8 Q: That's right, okay. Initially 9 Sergeant Reid requested one (1) unit and later that 10 changed to -- 11 A: A second. 12 Q: -- two (2) units. Okay. But they 13 arrive at the same time so they're enroute apparently at 14 around 21:41? 15 A: That's right. 16 Q: And appear to also arrive at 17 approximately 21:53? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Okay. So, that information 20 coincides. And I'm mindful of your comments yesterday 21 that the times that we see reflected here should be more 22 or less accurate, but they reflect the time that the 23 enter button was pushed -- 24 A: That's right. 25 Q: -- not necessarily the time of the --

1 A: That's when it was physically entered 2 into the system. 3 Q: Okay. Thank you. All right. And 4 would you just explain to me, I see on each of these 5 documents with respect to 1146, there's an ultimate 6 cancellation time of 23:45 and on -- for 1145 the 7 cancellation time is 23:44; very similar. 8 But, can you tell me what that has 9 reference to for this first assignment? 10 A: Well, obviously this is a Priority 8. 11 A dispatch code up on the... 12 Q: Do you want the map up or -- Okay. 13 A: No. I can just see it right here. 14 Dispatch Code 8 read -- indicated on the -- on the map 15 here with the pointer indicates it's a- a standby for 16 coverage. And that's -- and they were brought to the MNR 17 area. 18 Now, when they are cancelled off this 19 detail, as you said earlier, at 23:45 and 23:44, 20 obviously both these units were committed to different 21 activities other than this one prior to this time. 22 Q: Right. 23 A: At 23:45, that is when dispatcher 24 Jack Knight physically had an opportunity to go in there 25 and update the status on this call.

1 Q: Okay. So, this is only relating to 2 the standby call, the stand -- for the MNR park? 3 A: Exactly. 4 Q: Okay. And clearly they left -- they 5 had left far before 23:45 so it's -- in this case, the 6 timing is not very accurate? 7 A: No, they were on another call at 8 23:11 as a matter of fact. 9 Q: Right. Okay. Thank you. All right. 10 Then if you go to number 9543. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And I'll just note for the record 15 there are three (3) zeros in front of the four (4) 16 digits, but I'm just going to read the last four (4) 17 digits. 18 19 (BRIEF PAUSE) 20 21 Q: And this again provides -- it's 22 called "List of Dispatch Details". And for Unit 1145, 23 they are notified at approximately 23:11 of an 24 assignment. They're en route at approximately 23:11 and 25 this says that they arrived at approximately 23:11.

1 Perhaps you can tell us what assignment 2 this related to and make sense of those times for us? 3 A: This assignment was reflective of the 4 Army Camp -- 9780 Army Camp Road; the Park store, the 5 Park gate. 6 Q: I'm sorry, the Park store or the Army 7 Camp? 8 A: Sorry, the Army camp. 9 Q: All right. So, at the corner of 21 10 and -- and Army Camp Road? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: Now, we're -- right now we're looking 14 at Front Number 9543 and if you go to the two (2) pages 15 following this... 16 Q: Right, so 9544? 17 A: 9544. 18 Q: And 9545? 19 A: Okay. 9544, you can see the asterisk 20 next to the arrive time -- 21 Q: Right. 22 A: -- on the right hand side? Remember, 23 I mentioned yesterday that that indicates that the time 24 has been altered, it's not a true time that was input in 25 the computer system. And that just flags it to --

1 basically, what we require is an explanation at the very 2 bottom. 3 where there is an explanation, it just 4 says; basically the arrive time PIE, which basically 5 means punched in error, and it has been changed to 6 reflect the true time. 7 Q: All right. So, with respect to 1146, 8 they arrived at the corner of Highway 21 and Army Camp 9 Road at about 23:16? 10 A: Both of the units did, yes. 11 Q: And both the units. And that's -- 12 that's then -- it took them approximately four (4) 13 minutes to -- to get from the MNR parking lot up to the 14 Army camp base? 15 A: According to the -- the paper it did. 16 Now, there's -- as we discussed earlier, yesterday as 17 well, that there are some movements that the ambulance 18 does, the ambulances do that dispatch is not made aware 19 of. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: So, if it did take them four (4) 22 minutes, I -- I can't confirm that. 23 Q: And in this case, did you not 24 indicate that you -- you, in fact, didn't dispatch these 25 two (2) units up to 21 and Army Camp Road but rather were

1 notified by the crew that they had been dispatched by the 2 OPP? 3 A: That's right, we didn't dispatch 4 them. 5 Q: And so the notified time here, 6 normally that's when you notify the unit to take an 7 assignment, but in this case it's -- it would probably 8 closer as to when you found out about the assignment? 9 A: Exactly. Yes. 10 Q: All right. Thank you. Now, let's go 11 to 9545. This refers -- this is called, Dispatch 12 Details, and it refers to Unit 1145. 13 This indicates -- if we go up -- can you 14 tell me what -- what assignment this reflects? 15 A: When we were -- when we were advised 16 over the radio, when John Tedball said we're getting into 17 position and we might be transporting, that -- that's the 18 particular time when these two (2) calls were created and 19 -- excuse me, input into the system. 20 And at the time, we didn't know how many 21 victims we -- we had at the time -- 22 Q: All right. 23 A: -- or what the situation was, but in 24 the event, because those two (2) ambulances are together, 25 we put them both on a separate dispatch.

1 Q: All right. Okay. So, that -- 2 A: Just in order to track them. 3 Q: That finishes off, then, the 4 reporting details with respect to the dispatch to -- to 5 Army Camp Road and -- 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: -- Highway 21. 8 Now, I wonder if you would next go to page 9 9520, so it's right at the beginning, close to the 10 beginning of the documents. 11 Now, this document's called, Emergency 12 Details. Now, what distinguishes this document from the 13 other one? 14 A: It's definitely associated with the 15 other one, however, different call numbers, but the 16 Emergency Details, is the information that's gathered 17 from the caller where the ambulance is required and the 18 emergency or the dispatch details reflects the -- the 19 times that are associated with the car's movements. 20 Q: All right. And, this, can you just 21 tell us what information is reflected on 9520? 22 A: Okay. Now, remember earlier on I -- 23 I explained the initial confusion when I spoke with Veens 24 about, you're in Arkona? 25 Q: Yes.

1 A: And... 2 Q: Okay. So, first of all, does this 3 relate to the dispatching of 1145 to the Veens residence 4 on Nauvoo Road? 5 A: Yes, it does. 6 Q: Okay, carry on. 7 A: And, we can -- that'll -- that's 8 confirmed on the next page, on Front Number 9521. Those 9 times are associated with 1145. 10 Q: Okay. Let's start with 9520 and just 11 tell me what's on there and then we'll proceed. 12 A: Okay. This -- this call is received 13 at 23:27 hours and fifty-nine (59) seconds. 14 Q: Yes? 15 A: The information has come through the 16 -- the telephone lines; it originated at the Veens 17 residence; went to the Sarnia 911 Centre, which is also 18 the Sarnia Police Service and then it was -- somebody 19 asked for Ambulance; they patched it through to our 20 centre. 21 Q: Yeah. 22 A: Once this information comes through 23 the telephone lines, we drop all our information down 24 into our template. 25 Q: All right. And so, when you say,

1 "time time-zero" is 23:27 hundred hours and forty-nine 2 (49) seconds; that's the time at which you entered the 3 receipt of the 911 operator call, or at least, 4 facilitated the call? 5 A: What happens there, this is the time- 6 zero right here for people that didn't see it. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: This time, 23:27:49 reflects this 9 time here and, and you -- you can see, there's a ten (10) 10 second difference. 11 Now, once we pick up the telephone and 12 start speaking, nothing is -- nothing takes place with 13 this dispatching at all on the monitors. As soon as we 14 hit a certain key, it -- it brings up a screen, 15 basically, and that's when the time-zero clock starts 16 ticking. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: And then, as soon as we -- the 19 Ministry has a policy that we have to action this -- this 20 call, this information here within a certain time period 21 into the ambulance system; it's less than sixty (60) 22 seconds, it has to be. 23 Q: Okay. And, just for the record, the 24 time of 23:27 hundred hours is -- is more or less 25 consistent with the -- the taped telephone conversation

1 that we had just listened to -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- in terms of when we heard Mr. 4 Veens calling you? All right? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. Now, go on to the next page, 7 please, 9521. 8 A: 9521. These are the -- what's known 9 as the dispatch details. As I stated earlier, it is -- 10 these times are reflective with the previous dispatch 11 information, dispatch details -- sorry, the emergency 12 details. 13 Q: Right. 14 A: And, the time-zero is also on there, 15 right in the left-hand corner. 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: And, so basically, it's -- it's 18 redundant; it carries information over from the previous 19 -- previous page. 20 Q: All right. But in this stage, it 21 indicates that the ambulance unit was notified by you or 22 Mr. Knight at about 23:31; is that right? 23 A: That's -- in indicates that it is 24 23:31, but that is an incorrect time. 25 Q: All right. Do you know what the

1 correct time is now? 2 A: It would be just seconds after being 3 input, because as -- as we heard on the tape earlier, it 4 didn't take three (3) minutes to contact the ambulance 5 crew. 6 Q: Right. 7 A: Dispatcher Jack Knight called 1145 or 8 1146. And 1146 actually answered for them and it only 9 took the second call for them to respond, so there's no 10 delay of three (3) minutes. 11 Q: Okay. It's a -- it was close to the 12 23:27 time marker -- 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: -- and then this indicates that they 15 were en route by at least 23:32; but is that accurate? 16 A: No, that time would not -- it 17 wouldn't be reflective of the true time, either. 18 Q: All right. 19 Q: And, the -- the time -- as I said 20 earlier it -- remember, there was an asterisk up there in 21 the other dispatch details on another time? 22 Q: Yes. 23 A: It should have been like that had -- 24 and the dispatcher should have changed that but in his 25 haste with everything going on, it slipped his mind

1 obviously. 2 Q: All right. So, is it fair to say 3 that this unit was notified and enroute within about a 4 minute or so of the 23:27 call? 5 A: Oh yes. Oh yeah. 6 Q: All right. And that was borne out by 7 the tape we just listened to? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And in it indicates that this call, 10 that is the call to Nauvoo residence was cancelled at 11 23:55 which is -- appears to be significantly later than 12 was is indicated on the tape? 13 A: That's right. 14 Q: And can you provide us with an 15 explanation again? 16 A: Similar circumstance. I keep 17 referring to how -- how taxed we were in that centre that 18 night, things were busy. Now this time on the cancelled 19 time 6th of September '95 at 23:55, that is the time that 20 it was physically cancelled off of the system in the 21 computer. 22 Q: All right. 23 A: We know -- we're well aware that I 24 spoke with Ambulance 1145 and cancelled them myself on 25 the radio prior to that.

1 Q: Okay. 2 A: So, this time does not reflect the 3 true time they were cancelled. This is the time that 4 reflects when Jack Knight was physically able to cancel 5 the dispatch. 6 Q: All right. Just for the record we 7 indicated through the tape that the -- the dispatch 8 appeared to be made at about 23:29 or thereabouts. And 9 the cancellation time according to that record was at 10 approximately 23:37. 11 A: Right. 12 Q: And so what would the enroute time 13 have been? 14 What time was this ambulance enroute to 15 the Nauvoo Road residence before it was cancelled? 16 A: It would have been approximately 17 23:29, approximately. 18 Q: The total -- but the total minutes on 19 -- on the road? 20 How many minutes was this ambulance on the 21 road before it was cancelled? 22 A: Approximately eight (8) to ten (10) 23 minutes. 24 Q: All right. Thank you. And if you go 25 now to 9522, the next page. It's an emergency call

1 narrative. This is with respect to the Nauvoo Road 2 dispatch. 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And can you tell me what information 5 or new information is on here? 6 A: Okay. This information -- I'll start 7 at the top. This address comment; this has been put in 8 by myself in the database for all of Lambton and Kent 9 County. 10 Basically we identify this range of 11 numbers, there's a range of numbers that we -- we break 12 them down with and this number sixty-eight forty (6840) 13 can be found between Brickyard Line and Burnham Line. 14 It's just a -- a reference for the 15 dispatcher to pass it onto the ambulance crew who's 16 responding so they have a better idea of where they're -- 17 where they're heading to. 18 Q: Yes. 19 A: Now, the -- underneath that it says, 20 "DPCI Card 27 wound". 21 DPCI is -- stands for its an acronym for 22 dispatch card -- or sorry, dispatch priority card index. 23 What that means is it's -- it's a template also within 24 the ambulance system here that we're dealing with and 25 what the dispatcher or the call-taker does is when they

1 get a caller on the line, they ask various questions. 2 And if they get a response -- actually if 3 we can go bact to font -- I'm sorry, front 9520 -- 4 Q: Yes. 5 A: -- two-thirds (2/3) of the way down 6 where the -- I'm pointing now, there's basically spots 7 for three (3) questions -- three (3) primary questions 8 that the call-taker will ask the -- the caller: Is the 9 patient unconscious, any difficulty breathing or any 10 uncontrolled bleeding? 11 And if there's a 'yes' put into any of 12 those fields, it's -- obviously it's a -- it's a high 13 priority transport and -- or high priority call and the 14 call is immediately committed by the call-taker to the 15 dispatcher. 16 And we'll go -- 17 Q: And that's recognized by Code 4, is 18 it? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: And then go back once again, sorry, 22 over to 9522 -- 23 Q: Right. 24 A: -- and I can't show you on the 25 information here that we even have in our books, but

1 further into this questioning, Card Number 27, it has 2 other specific questions which are asked by the call- 3 taker to the caller. And they basically tick off boxes 4 with a yes or a no, and then everything that it is 5 highlighted, once it's committed to the system, it comes 6 up as it does here; it's an injury to the chest -- 7 Q: All right. 8 A: -- or is -- involves a wound. 9 Q: Yes. 10 A: Underneath this it says, "original 11 911 details by 98761"; that is my number, which means I 12 committed this -- this -- this call, this particular call 13 to the system. And at 23:28 and zero seconds I changed 14 the address. 15 Now, our database, there's various -- 16 there's a number of townships within Lambton County -- 17 Q: I think you indicated that it came up 18 on your screen as Arcona Warwick -- 19 A: Arcona Warwick -- 20 Q: -- township. 21 A: -- township. 22 Q: So, where -- how did you change it? 23 A: In order for this address to reflect 24 our database, we just -- there's just so many townships 25 in -- in the County of Lambton, that we just had to make

1 a decision once this -- this system, this computer system 2 came into play, and we decided that we would have -- 3 sorry, I'm going back again to 9520, we would call -- 4 call all the city, town and the municipalities, Lambton; 5 it's just easier to identify. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And so -- 8 Q: So you changed it from Arcona -- 9 A: We changed it from Arcona to Warwick 10 and it records the change. Anything that's changed or 11 altered -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- is flagged. 14 Q: All right. So, you changed it to 15 Lambton is my point. 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Okay, fine. And then over at 9523, 18 Emergency Call Narratives; this relates again to -- 19 still, to the Nauvoo Road call? 20 A: That's correct. And it's just -- 21 it's policy that anything that's input regarding this 22 call, is put in a narrative fashion and I think you would 23 -- can recall that during our tape earlier, I mentioned 24 to Jack Knight, the dispatcher, I said make sure you put 25 that into the narratives --

1 Q: Yes. 2 A: -- to reflect it. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: That's what this means. Any 5 information that you put into this system for reference, 6 we type it in. As soon as you hit the enter button and 7 commit it to the system, it's -- it's part of it, just 8 the way this shows and it also reflects the time that it 9 was entered -- 10 Q: All right. Now -- 11 A: -- 23:38:19. 12 Q: -- you've already explained the 13 difficulties with the times that are recorded here, but 14 just for clarity, the first time that's recorded, 23:38, 15 the commentary is, "someone just showed up and asked to 16 call an ambulance". 17 So, that's your -- that's when you first 18 got the call from Mr. Veens? 19 A: No, I got the call at 23:27. 20 Q: I appreciate that, but -- 21 A: But, this is the -- this -- sorry, 22 this is the time when I was physically able to enter this 23 information. 24 Q: Yes, and I think I made the 25 qualification. Leaving the times aside, I just want to--

1 A: Oh. 2 Q: -- know the sequence of events. 3 A: Sorry, okay. 4 Q: The second time entry is when you 5 were on a landline to residents and advised the -- the 6 patient had left? 7 A: On landlining and finding out whether 8 they had weapons there. 9 Q: No, that would be the third, wouldn't 10 it? 11 There are three (3) contacts. 12 I know there were two (2) calls, but there 13 were three (3) different conversations within the two (2) 14 calls. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Am I wrong? 19 A: No, you're right. 20 Q: Okay. Okay. So, the second call is 21 when you are advised that the patient had left and then 22 the third is the call back with respect to do they have 23 visible weapons, because there were conversations in 24 between the first and second call that were unrelated; is 25 that fair?

1 A: But, you see, I -- I only 2 disconnected from them once. 3 Q: I appreciate -- all right. 4 A: And I didn't -- I just had them on 5 hold and -- 6 Q: All right. Well -- 7 A: Am I not understanding something, 8 or... 9 Q: No, it's your evidence. Now, you 10 tell me, then, what was this -- what was the first 11 indication, what's the first piece of evidence relate 12 to? 13 A: The LL (phonetic) residence? 14 Q: No, notes by CACC, September 6th, at 15 23:38:19; what does that narrative relate to? 16 A: Someone had -- someone had pulled up 17 the Nauvoo address and said they require an ambulance. 18 Q: All right. Okay. And what did the 19 entry, the second entry relate to? 20 A: Just speaking with the residents once 21 again. 22 Q: And the third entry? 23 A: Speaking with the residents again. 24 And it was just customary to -- once you contact the 25 residents, you put the phone number in there that you

1 used. 2 Q: Okay. And then the fourth reference 3 relates to what? 4 A: When the -- I put in there that the 5 call was cancelled at 23:54. And it was Jack's 6 responsibility -- the dispatcher's responsibility -- to 7 physically cancel that -- that dispatch on the computer, 8 so I didn't do that, but that was just a note saying that 9 the call had been cancelled. 10 Q: And, it says, "Cancelled unit by 11 11330"; that's Mr. Knight's number, isn't it? 12 A: That's right. 13 Q: And, we've -- as I said, we've 14 already dealt with the time discrepancy, so I just wanted 15 to get a sequence of events here. 16 A: Okay. 17 Q: All right. That's fine. And, the 18 next page, 9524 is an emergency call narrative. This a 19 further narrative relating to the Nauvoo Road call. 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. Thank you. 22 All right. I think it would be very 23 helpful for the Commission if we -- if you would be able 24 to identify on the map that's behind you -- and we'll put 25 it up on the screen now; I wonder if you could do that

1 please? 2 Now, first of all, this is a -- a map that 3 relates to the Ipperwash area and we've marked it as an 4 exhibit already. It marks, specifically, all of the 5 roads in the region of the -- the former Ipperwash 6 Provincial Park, Kettle Point First Nation, Forest, 7 Arkona, Thedford, and at the bottom of the screen, the 8 address on Nauvoo Road where the Veen residence actually 9 is located. 10 And, there are a number of other locations 11 there; the -- the former Army Camp gate is located, 12 perhaps you can -- there, thank you; the Park is just to 13 the north; the Northville Fire Department to the right; 14 the Thedford Fire and Ambulance Station; and down below, 15 the Arkona Fire Department; the Nauvoo Road residence; to 16 the left and up, the -- the Forest Fire Station; and 17 above that the -- the Forest Ambulance Station and the 18 town of Forest, itself. So, that's just to give you a 19 bit of the sense of the orientation. 20 I wonder if you would now, show us with 21 your pointer starting with the original dispatch of 1146 22 to the MNR parking lot and -- thank you, we've just -- 23 we've just expanded the -- or focussed in on the map. 24 A: I believe the MNR parking would be 25 just down in here.

1 Q: All right. So, you're pointing to 2 East Parkway Drive? 3 A: Right. Just off of Ipperwash Road. 4 Q: Okay. So, can -- I'm sorry, were you 5 able to -- to catch that, Mr. Emery? 6 So, what we are marking is where the 7 approximate location of the MNR parking lot was and this 8 is where you dispatched 1146 and 1145? 9 A: That's right. 10 Q: Could you add that information to the 11 database. 12 And, the approximate time that they 13 arrived, according to the records, was at 21:53? 14 A: That's right. 15 Q: And would you mark that time as well, 16 please? 17 MR. KEVIN EMERY: Can you repeat that for 18 me, please? 19 20 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 21 Q: Sure, the time of arrival of 1146 and 22 1145 at the MNR parking lot was 21:53, and 1146 at 21:53. 23 Okay. I'm just trying to remember, do you 24 recall the time of dispatch of that call? 25 A: Sorry, which one?

1 Q: Sorry, the dispatch to the MNR 2 parking lot was at 20:56, wasn't it -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- for 1146? Sorry, that's when you 5 notified it. Perhaps we should go with the enroute. So, 6 we -- we have registered as enroute at 2141. 7 A: Okay, great. 8 Q: And, will you put the arrival time as 9 21:53. I'm just taking this from the exhibit at -- 10 documents at 9531 -- 11 A: Right. 12 Q: -- of Exhibit 345. Okay. Thank you. 13 The next thing I would like you to show us 14 is the location of 1145 and 1146 when they are dispatched 15 to 21 Highway and Army Camp Road. Perhaps you could 16 focus in on that location, Mr. Emery; Army Camp Road and 17 21 or the former army camp base? 18 Okay. And can you give us the approximate 19 location then of where 1145 and 1146 were dispatched to 20 by -- by the OPP if you are able -- 21 A: I -- I'm believing they were at -- 22 right in this area here. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: Probably on the north side of the 25 road.

1 Q: Okay. 2 A: Just surmising. I'm not exactly 3 positive. 4 Q: Appreciate that and we'll have the 5 attendants here -- 6 A: Yeah. 7 Q: -- next week. But we're just trying 8 to get a general sense of it. So, if you then the units 9 numbers, 1145 and 1146 and then the enroute time -- I'm 10 sorry. 11 The enroute time for both units is 23:11 12 according to the log, the ambulance log. And the time of 13 arrival is at about 23:16 according to the ambulance log. 14 Thank you. 15 Okay. Now, are you able to tell us the -- 16 we should -- can you now als -- tell us where the other 17 units were stationed at approximately 23:27? I'm taking 18 this time arbitrarily because this is the time at which 19 you received -- first are contacted by Mr. Veens and 20 before you dispatch any of the units. 21 A: Okay. At -- at 23:27 I started 22 speaking with Mr. Veens on a Nauvoo Road call. And at 23 that time we had two (2) ambulances at Army Camp Road and 24 21 Highway. And we discussed earlier that we were going 25 to have to move other ambulances down there.

1 Q: Right. So, let's -- let's proceed 2 with that. 3 A: Okay. 4 Q: And perhaps we'll start with Unit 5 1147. 6 A: So, we can say that 1146 is committed 7 to transport with Nick Cotrelle. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: 1145 is assigned the call to the 10 Nauvoo Road site. And so at that time we have to decide 11 -- we have to move some other ambulances down for 12 coverage. 13 Q: All right. And just for the record, 14 the starting points if you will, of -- of the enroute or 15 the transfer of Nick Cotrelle, you've already marked at 16 Highway 21 -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- and Army Camp -- 19 A: Yes, Highway 21 and Army Camp Road. 20 Q: And the dispatch point, departure 21 point if you will, for 1145 the Nauvoo Road is already 22 reflected at Highway 21 and Army Camp Road? 23 A: The same one, yes. 24 Q: So, now I understand you're moving 25 ambulances in position and we'll actually track the times

1 as well that they get moved into position? 2 A: Yes, yes, we will. 3 Q: All right. 4 A: Okay. What we're doing is -- so as 5 we stated earlier like you had said as well, both 6 ambulances are committed there from 21 Highway and Army 7 Camp Road. 8 Q: Right. 9 A: And so what we are doing, we have 10 contacted an ambulance at the Forest base and that is 11 1147. 12 Q: And for the record, we're referring 13 to Log 9540 and we're still in Exhibit P-345. 14 A: That ambulance was contacted at the 15 Forest station and advised to go down towards the MNR 16 area. Actually, they were instructed, I think, to go to 17 the checkpoint on Ipperwash Road. 18 Q: All right. So Mr. Emery has put on 19 the board, the Forest ambulance station so can we mark 20 that as 11 -- with Unit 1147? 21 And it appears that this ambulance was on 22 route at about 23:25. And please, Mr. Connors, correct 23 me if you disagree. 24 A: No, you're right. You're right. 25 Q: And the arrival at the MNR parking

1 lot? 2 A: No. At the checkpoint on Ipperwash 3 Road. 4 Q: Ipperwash Road and 21? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: All right. 7 A: That's where we instructed them to 8 go, anyways. 9 Q: Thank you. 10 A: And they arrived there at 23:35 11 hours. 12 Q: So at 23:35. Thank you. All right. 13 A: Shortly after that, we contacted the 14 second ambulance that was at the Forest Station; and that 15 is Unit Number 1505. 16 Q: Okay. So, about -- 17 A: And -- and we instructed them to head 18 down to the Ipperwash Road checkpoint area as well. 19 Q: All right. And this is number -- 20 Document Number 9555 within the same exhibit. 21 A: They were on the way at 23:34 and our 22 information indicates that they arrived at 23:46; about 23 ten (10) -- approximately ten (10) minutes after the 24 first ambulance. 25 Q: The Unit Number is 1505, and we just

1 have to slow down a little bit, Mr. Connors, so that Mr. 2 Emery -- 3 A: Sure. 4 Q: -- can -- 5 A: I forgot about that. 6 Q: Did you get the enroute time then and 7 the arrival time and the location? Okay, thank you. 8 Thank you very much. All right. Let's 9 move on to the next unit. 10 A: Okay. So, at this point we have 11 coverage reinstated. We are instructed by Sergeant 12 Cousineau not to let it fall anywhere below two (2) 13 ambulances. And we have two (2) ambulances now for 14 coverage for the area. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: In addition to those two (2) 17 ambulances that we just discussed, we have a Parkhill 18 unit which we borrowed from London dispatch. 19 Q: All right. And we're looking at 20 document number 9548 in the same exhibit. 21 And where -- where were they? 22 A: That unit was brought into the 23 intersection of 21 Highway and Northville Road. 24 Q: All right. So, could we go to 21 and 25 Northville? And the -- you know, okay -- not general

1 location there. 2 And it's Unit -- 3 A: 1249. 4 Q: -- 1249. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: And do you have an arrival time for 9 that? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Do you have an enroute time? 12 A: Enroute at 23:27; that's when -- 13 you'll see the Front Number 9548. I can remember seeing 14 it -- some details there in the narratives and when the 15 London dispatcher acknowledges that he will send us a 16 unit, he put it in there that they were already on their 17 way -- already enroute. 18 Q: Okay. So, they're on their way but 19 we don't actually know when he got to that -- 20 A: No, we don't, because the -- the 21 ambulance is from a different area. They may not switch 22 over to our frequency. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: And if they did, they didn't 25 acknowledge that they were there, so that's why we

1 wouldn't have a record of that. 2 Q: All right. So, let's move on to unit 3 1245 and it's at Document Number 9552 in the same 4 exhibit. 5 A: This ambulance also originated from 6 the London dispatch area. It's a Strathroy unit and we 7 had asked that they attend the area of Arcona, because in 8 addition to supplying coverage for this incident, we have 9 to maintain coverage for the general population in that 10 area as well. 11 Q: All right. So, this is coming from 12 Strathroy and do you know where in Arcona they were 13 going? 14 A: It's -- Arcona isn't very large and 15 they pretty much just -- as long as they're within in 16 that -- within that area, like within a kilometre, we're 17 satisfied with that. 18 Q: All right. So, Mr. Emery, you're 19 just doing the general vicinity? 20 Okay, and that's unit 1245. Again, we 21 don't have an arrival time because you've borrowed this 22 unit from another location, but they're enroute at 23:33? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 Q: Approximately? Is that right? 2 A: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. Pardon me. 3 Q: That's okay. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 Q: All right. Shall we move on then, to 8 the next unit -- 9 A: The next unit, Front Number 9557. 10 Q: Yes. 11 A: That unit's identified as 1141. That 12 is a car out of Petrolia and we moved them up to the 13 Forest ambulance station and they arrived just shortly 14 after midnight at 00:09 hours. 15 Q: Okay. So, we'll just go to the 16 Forest Ambulance Station. This is Unit 1141 and it 17 arrived 09:00 hours; zero zero zero nine (0009). And 18 that would be September the 7th; perhaps you w