1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 20th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )    (np)     Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein )  (np)      The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )   (np)     George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    )   (np)     Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )   (np)       Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena  (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )   (np)       Kettle Point & Stony
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  Colleen Johnson  )   (np)
 22  
 23  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 24  Walter Myrka     )
 25  Susan Freeborn   )   (np)

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )   (np)       The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Ian Smith        )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (np)
 11  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 12  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 13  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 14  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 15  
 16  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 17  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 18  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 19  
 20  Ian Roland       )              Ontario Provincial 
 21  Karen Jones      )   (np)       Police Association &
 22  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 23  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
 24  Annie Leeks      )   (np)
 25

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  Clem Nabigon     )   (np)
  7  Adriel Weaver     )   (np)       Student-at-Law
  8  
  9  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
 10  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 11  
 12  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 13  Matthew Horner   )   (np)
 14  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 15  
 16  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 17  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 18  Erin Tully       )
 19  
 20  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 21  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 22  Melissa Panjer   )   (np)
 23  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 KAREN BAKKER-STEPHENS, Resumes 6 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrew Orkin 7 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 23 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 56 9 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ian Roland 57 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Al O'Marra 94 11 Re-Examination by Ms. Susan Vella 108 12 13 JOHN RUSSELL KNIGHT, Sworn 14 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 117 15 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Rosenthal 203 16 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 221 17 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 226 18 19 GEOFFREY FULTON CONNORS, Sworn 20 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 236 21 22 23 Certificate of Transcript 336 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-344 Document 1004602 September 24/'97 4 Anticipated evidence of Karen Bakker 43 5 P-345 Document 1002002 Central Ambulance 6 Communication Centre logs 95-PFD-130 7 Ipperwash incident, September 06/'95 8 2134 hours to September 07/'95, 9 0700 hours. 177 10 P-346 Document 5000205 incident report PU 11 common place; Ipperwash RD Lambton 12 standby on 06 September '95, 20:56:50 273 13 P-347 Document 1001992 logger tape command 14 centre three telephone lines 06 15 September '95, 19:50 to 23:49 hours 334 16 P-348 CD-Rom of EMC Calls September 6/7, 17 1995. 335 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:01 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 7 Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 9 morning. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I believe that Mr. 11 Orkin is the first solicitor to cross-examine. 12 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Good morning, 13 Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 15 morning, Mr. Orkin. 16 17 KAREN BAKKER-STEPHENS, Resumes 18 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 20 Q: Good morning, Ms. Bakker. 21 A: Morning. 22 Q: My name is Andrew Orkin. I'm Co- 23 Counsel along with Mr. Klippenstein of the Dudley George 24 Estate and of the Sam George Family Members -- Sam George 25 Family Group; a number of the siblings of Dudley George.

1 I would like to ask you a few questions. This won't take 2 very long and I hope won't be too difficult. 3 You were born in 1973; is that correct? 4 A: That is correct. Hmm hmm. 5 Q: So in 19 -- September 1996 you would 6 have been twenty -- 7 A: Two (2). 8 Q: -- two (2). Sorry, 1995, twenty-two 9 (22). 10 A: That's right. 11 Q: On the night of September 6th, you 12 testified yesterday, you were handed over a patient for 13 transport and care, Cecil Bernard George by someone you 14 believed to be an OPP medic; is that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And in the ambulance you asked Mr. 17 George did you, about the nature and extent of his 18 injuries and how they came about? 19 A: I tried to, yes. 20 Q: But Mr. George appeared to you to be 21 disoriented or not oriented at all? 22 A: I would say more disoriented. 23 Q: Disoriented. And was not able or not 24 forthcoming in telling you about his injuries? 25 A: He was not forthcoming.

1 Q: Not forthcoming. And you mentioned 2 yesterday that you examined Mr. George in the ambulance 3 as best as you could under the circumstances to ascertain 4 the nature and extent of his injuries? 5 A: That is correct. 6 Q: And you did that by palpitation -- 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: -- of his torso and limbs? 9 A: Basic, a head to toe. 10 Q: Right. And testing his pupils with 11 light and observing his responses to other stimuli? 12 A: That is correct. 13 Q: And taking his pulse and observing 14 his respiration? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And as best as you could under those 17 circumstances, you concluded that Mr. George had been 18 subjected to trauma and possibly significant trauma? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: On transfer to -- to your care of Mr. 21 George at Ipperwash Park, you were given very little, if 22 any, information about what had happened to Mr. George; 23 is that right? 24 A: I was given very little by means of 25 report as to what he had by way of injury.

1 Q: Right. 2 A: I was not given any information as to 3 how he received those injuries. 4 Q: So, with respect to the injuries 5 themselves, you received very little information and as 6 to the circumstances under which the injuries occurred, 7 you received no information? 8 A: That is correct. 9 Q: So, it seems the personal persons who 10 did that handover under those circumstances either knew 11 or didn't tell you what they knew about Mr. George's 12 injuries and the circumstances in which they were caused; 13 is that fair? 14 A: Basically, they -- they may have 15 known but they did not tell me; that is correct. 16 Q: Can we go for a moment to the report 17 you completed, that ambulance unit patient report, I 18 believe it's at Tab 10 in your binder. Yes, you have it 19 open there. That's handy, yes. 20 A: Okay. 21 Q: I assume that's the same one. 22 A: It's Tab 1. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: It's Tab 1. 24 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Forgive me, I've -- 25 I've written the number incorrectly. That's Document

1 1002921. 2 MS. SUSAN VELLA: P-342. 3 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: P...? 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: 342. 5 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: P. 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: 342. 7 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: P-342, for the record. 8 Thank you. 9 10 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 11 Q: You were, then, in training as a 12 health professional. You were a fairly senior nursing 13 student? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And, to record as best as you can, 16 the salient details of a given situation comprehensively; 17 is that correct? That's part of the training -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- that a -- that a nurse receives? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And, also of course, a St. John's 22 Ambulance volunteer -- 23 A: That is correct. 24 Q: -- receives training to record as 25 best as you can.

1 A: Hmm hmm. 2 Q: And, also to record details without 3 regard to their non-medical implications, in other words, 4 to record clinical and -- and physiological details 5 irrespective of any other implications that they may 6 have? 7 A: That's fair. 8 Q: And, you recorded on that report that 9 an OPP officer had -- you accurately recorded on that 10 report that an OPP officer stated to you that Mr. George 11 may be an AIDS carrier; is that correct? 12 A: That is correct. 13 Q: And this was not on -- in your view, 14 an accurate report or conclusion on your part that Mr. 15 George was, in fact, HIV seropositive, but it was a 16 record about what an OPP officer had stated to you? 17 A: That is correct; it's what the 18 officer said. I had no evidence to say he was or was 19 not. 20 Q: Right. So, you simply recorded the 21 fact that an officer had told you that? 22 A: Exactly. 23 Q: And -- and recorded that for the -- 24 for the record? You also recorded that during your 25 transport of Mr. George and -- and the care you provided

1 in the ambulance to him as best as you could, that he 2 had, at one (1) point, zero pulse and zero respiration? 3 A: Exactly. 4 Q: And, that this was what you recorded 5 because you believed it to the best of your knowledge at 6 the time to be true? 7 A: Exactly. 8 Q: Ms. Bakker, some time later, your 9 reviews on this were revised after conversations with 10 your St. John's superiors and you stated that perhaps the 11 situation was really that Mr. George actually had a faint 12 pulse or respiration, but that as a result of the 13 conditions you were under, you were unable to detect 14 these; is that fair? 15 A: That's fair. 16 Q: I anticipate that there'll evidence 17 later in the Inquiry, perhaps as early as next week, 18 expert evidence including from the physicians to who -- 19 to whose care you carefully transferred Mr. George, that 20 Mr. George was, indeed, subjected to large numbers of 21 blunt instrument blows and trauma on many parts of his 22 body. 23 Are you aware of that evidence or -- 24 A: Yes? 25 Q: You are?

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Excuse me. 2 Just hold up for a second, Mr. Roland has a... 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: My Friend used the 4 term, 'blunt instrument'. I don't think that there's 5 evidence going to be coming from any experts about blunt 6 instrument and so I'm sure that that's entirely accurate. 7 There certainly was trauma from -- from some force, but 8 the suggestion that it was a blunt instrument I don't 9 think is entirely accurate. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I assume you 11 were referring to some -- 12 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: I'm happy to revise 13 the question -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 15 16 MR. ORKIN: -- Commissioner, and leave 17 out the words, 'blunt instrument' and simply say bodily 18 trauma. 19 THE WITNESS: That's fair enough, yes. 20 21 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 22 Q: You were the only person who had 23 contact with Mr. Cecil Bernard George and were in a 24 position to observe the circumstances in between the time 25 of his being handed over to a St. John's -- St. John

1 Ambulance and your handing the patient over to personnel 2 at the hospital; is that correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: So, and it's accurate to say, is it 5 not, that of all of the people in this situation you're 6 the only one in -- in a first-hand circumstance to judge 7 what happened with Mr. George while he was travelling 8 from Ipperwash Park to the hospital. 9 A: Just during transport, yes. 10 Q: During transport. In your knowledge, 11 would it be possible that, with extensive bodily trauma, 12 that Mr. George's respiration and pulse may actually have 13 stopped for a short time in the ambulance. 14 OBJ COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We have some 15 objections. Let's hear from Ms. Vella first, Mr. 16 O'Marra. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I don't believe that 18 this Witness has the expertise and medical expertise to 19 give this type of opinion evidence. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. O'Marra, 21 were you going to say the same thing? 22 MR. AL O'MARRA: Yes. 23 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: I'll move on. 24 MR. AL O'MARRA: Just one moment, please. 25 Not only, I would submit, is it objectionable, but were

1 the question to be put, I think it an obligation on the 2 part of My Friend to satisfy the Commission that there's 3 evidence in support of such a proposition; medical 4 evidence, that would support the proposition. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, we've 6 got a little -- yes, Mr. Rosenthal? 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Mr. Commissioner, I 8 rise because I intend to explore this area as well. And 9 this person is a nurse and trained as a nurse, and she 10 should know whether or not it's possible for a heart to 11 stop and start again in those circumstances. 12 And I do expect -- I know for a fact that 13 that is possible, that a heart can stop and start again-- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 15 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- and I could be 16 called as a witness, if necessary. But in any event, 17 sir, this is something that should be explored now and 18 we'll have expert evidence later as well but -- 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And we're 20 going to have -- 21 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: -- but that may 22 affect her -- her initial impression of this incident was 23 changed by her discussions with Mr. Harding; we've had 24 clear evidence of that. 25 He was not an expert, but he told her that

1 the explanation for her recording that, must have been 2 noise in the ambulance and we do have a right to revisit 3 that at this -- at this stage with this Witness, sir, in 4 my respectful submission. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. 6 Vella...? 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Two (2) comments. 8 First of all, with respect to Mr. Rosenthal's comments, I 9 believe the witness testified yesterday that she could 10 not conclusively conclude whether or not there was a 11 pulse or breathing, but rather there were two (2) 12 possible explanations. So, she's already conceded that. 13 Second, she was a nursing student at the 14 time that -- that she made this transport. If My Friend 15 wishes to qualify her as an expert then he has to go 16 through the qualification process. 17 We can hear from the Witness in that 18 respect, but I think that her evidence has been quite 19 clear that she could not conclusively determine one way 20 or the other, whether or not the heart stopped or the 21 breathing stopped and I don't know how she can go beyond 22 that. 23 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Commissioner, My 24 Friend, Counsel for the Coroner, yesterday questioned an 25 ambulance driver in this particular area as well, and he

1 was not even a person who had hands on contact or 2 observation. 3 And the question that My Learned Friend 4 for the -- for the Coroner asked was the obverse, I 5 argue, of the one that I'm asking. 6 But, I am happy, in light of the 7 controversy to move on and look forward to -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 9 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: -- My Friend, Mr. 10 Rosenthal pursuing this. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- it may 12 come up again, but we are going to have expert evidence 13 on this, so it may not be as significant as it seems at 14 the moment, although when Mr. Rosenthal rises, he may 15 have more to say on it. 16 If you're ready to move on, then let's 17 move on. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 20 Q: Ms. Baker, to move to slightly less 21 controversial arenas, you're aware that the mandate of 22 this Inquiry is to get now, finally after ten (10) years, 23 to the bottom of the events and circumstances of the 24 death of Dudley George. 25 You are aware of that?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And you're aware, perhaps, that there 3 has been some evidence, and I anticipate that there will 4 be more, that there may have been political pressure in 5 the days and hours before the events of the night of 6 September the 6th? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And as a result, there were concerns, 9 fairly widespread concerns after the events of September 10 the 6th, that the police had actually been pressured or 11 otherwise induced by politicians to use force at 12 Ipperwash Park. 13 Are you aware of that? 14 A: I understand there were concerns, 15 yes. 16 Q: Right. So, you became aware that 17 this was and remains a controversial situation and that 18 there's a lot of controversy about Dudley George's 19 shooting death and also the beating that Cecil Bernard 20 George received on the night of September the 6th? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Ms. Bakker, did you ever perceive or 23 feel in any way that there was pressure put on you from 24 any quarter at all to revise your conclusions that Mr. 25 George who may have been a victim of police violence at

1 Ipperwash Park, had suffered loss of his vital signs 2 while he was under your care? 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I believe that My 4 Friend put -- put an assumption into that question which 5 was that she had formed a conclusion or had turned her 6 mind as to whether -- how it was that Mr. Cecil Bernard 7 George received his injuries and has inserted the 8 assumption that she may have thought that it was police 9 violence; that doesn't come out in her evidence at all 10 and I don't think that that's a fair question. 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Break your 12 question down. 13 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: I will break it down 14 and I think all of its elements, Commissioner, are 15 defensible and I'm happy to do that. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN: 18 Q: But the simple straightforward thrust 19 of my question is did you ever feel that there was any 20 pressure put on you from any quarter to revise your view 21 that you arrived at and recorded on this patient report 22 that Mr. George's vital signs may have stopped while he 23 was in your care in that -- in that ambulance? 24 A: My report reflects as accurately as 25 possible what happened in that ambulance. I have no

1 idea, really, as to how he received his injuries and I 2 can't draw a conclusion because I didn't see him get 3 hurt. 4 Q: Right. 5 A: And it would be unfair and really not 6 appropriate of me to make that conclusion. 7 Q: That's very fair. But that isn't -- 8 isn't exactly my question. 9 My question is: After the recording that 10 you did on that report, which you've just told me was 11 your best effort to accurately record what you 12 experienced in that ambulance, at some point after this 13 report was made, did you ever perceive or feel that you 14 were put under any pressure about that record? 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Vella 16 has something. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Sorry, I believe that 18 My Friend is referring to the report which is Exhibit P- 19 342. She does indicate under Nature of Injury/Illness: 20 "During transport patient loss of 21 consciousness decreased. Was unable to 22 locate vital signs due to noise." 23 So, I don't -- I think he's got his 24 chronology a little bit wrong. And perhaps he wishes to 25 rephrase his question.

1 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Commissioner, my 2 question is really a simple one which goes to the view 3 and perceptions of this Witness about this and I'll 4 expand it slightly any other aspect of what she recorded, 5 is did she feel that in any way she was put under 6 pressure. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That was -- 8 if you stop there, I think that's a legitimate question 9 and perhaps she can answer that. 10 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: I'll rephrase it to 11 the Witness one last time. 12 13 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN. 14 Q: Do you feel that any point after 15 recording your experience in that ambulance, that you 16 were put under pressure of any kind from any quarter to 17 change your recollection of what had happened? 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Let's leave 19 it at that. 20 THE WITNESS: I would say no. When I 21 spoke with Mr. Harding and we reviewed the incident that 22 occurred in the ambulance, the goal for us was to be sure 23 that what happened in the ambulance was recorded properly 24 not how he received his injuries. 25

1 CONTINUED BY MR. ANDREW ORKIN. 2 Q: I thank you for that answer. And 3 also for your contribution to this -- to this Inquiry. 4 Many thanks. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 6 Mr. Orkin. 7 Yes, Mr. Rosenthal? 8 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 9 Commissioner. 10 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 12 Q: And Ms. Bakker, I hope that my 13 interjection before didn't make you apprehensive that I'm 14 going to try to test your expertise. 15 My name is Peter Rosenthal, I'm Counsel 16 for some of the people from Stoney Point under the name 17 Aazhoodena and George Family Group. 18 I was just going to explore the -- the 19 questions to what really happened in the ambulance. Was 20 it -- was it noise or was it really that he didn't have a 21 pulse and -- or he had a very, very weak pulse. And so I 22 would just like to ask you a bit about the surrounding 23 circumstances there. 24 And, perhaps, I could preface it with 25 could you consider this under the assumption and we will

1 have people more expert than you in this area to indicate 2 whether or not this assumption is true that a heart can 3 stop and spontaneously start again within a short 4 period of time? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 6 minute, Mr. Rosenthal. 7 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Consider that 8 possibility as a -- as a hypothetical when I -- when I go 9 through the rest of this if you may. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Mr. O'Marra 11 has an objection to the question. 12 MR. AL O'MARRA: More of an observation, 13 sir. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Oh, okay. 15 MR. AL O'MARRA: I think if My Friend is 16 going to put a proposition in the context of the 17 objective evidence that we've heard, that he has an 18 obligation to put before the Court that there is some 19 medical evidence in support of the proposition, not only 20 testing the qualification of this Witness to answer that 21 question, but there's also medical evidence in support of 22 the proposition. 23 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Commissioner with -- 24 wrong microphone. I'll try and speak in stereo. 25 With -- with respect, I think, that is

1 precisely what Mr. Rosenthal does not need to do in light 2 of the preface to his question. He's explicitly dealing 3 with a hypothesis and has explicitly isolated it from the 4 circum -- from the particular circumstances and evidence 5 in this Inquiry and I'm frankly quite surprised with the 6 last objection. 7 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think that the 8 difficulty is really what -- I think what Mr. O'Marra is 9 saying is, is there evidence to support the proposition 10 in the first place, not whether it's an applicable 11 proposition to this scenario, but whether, in the 12 abstract, is it theoretically possible for a heart to 13 stop and then start. 14 And we don't have that objective evidence, 15 but on the other hand, this is a hypothetical and if the 16 assumption obviously cannot be borne out in evidence, 17 then the answers are -- are tainted by that and aren't of 18 much value. 19 But I think as a hypothetical, and 20 assuming this Witness has the medical expertise to answer 21 the question flowing from the hypothetical assumption, I 22 think the question is -- at least the beginning of the 23 question -- I haven't heard the question yet, but the 24 assumption seems to be one that can be put to the 25 Witness.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And, at the 2 moment, the Witness is not on the stand as an expert, 3 she's a person who has medical knowledge and medical 4 experience -- 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- but she's 7 not an expert. We've heard her qualifications and I'm 8 not sure that you want to try to qualify her as expert, 9 but you do want her to give her opinion, given the extent 10 of her knowledge and experience. 11 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Well, sir, perhaps 12 I should explain more fully to you and to the Witness and 13 to My Friends, the context that I wish to explore so that 14 you will appreciate my subsequent questions as well. 15 We have clear evidence that Ms. Bakker 16 recorded certain observations or obtained certain 17 observations in the ambulance and then afterwards 18 discussed them with Mr. Harding. 19 And there was concern during that 20 discussion as to how Mr. George could have had zero pulse 21 at one point and then a pulse afterward and Mr. Harding 22 suggested that was likely due to noise in the ambulance 23 and the Witness accepted that and indicated that in her 24 report. We have clear evidence to that effect. 25 Now, that --

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: As one (1) 2 possible explanation? 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: As a possible 4 explanation, yes. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And, apparently at 7 the time, they didn't consider the possible explanation 8 or I might ask the Witness, as to whether the heart might 9 have, in fact, stopped and started again. 10 And I wish to explore that possibility and 11 I'm trying to do that within the -- I certainly don't 12 want to go beyond this Witness' expertise. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Hmm hmm. 14 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I just want to 15 explore that. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 18 Q: So, that's where -- do you understand 19 then, Ms. Bakker, as well where I'm coming from by this? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, I am correct that at the time 22 you had the discussion with Mr. Harding, you didn't 23 explore the possibility that the heart might have 24 actually stopped and started again, right? 25 You -- you assumed -- you assumed that he

1 was correct in suggesting it was noise? 2 A: No, actually Mr. Harding had said it 3 was more likely that the pulse was thready and I couldn't 4 find it because of the noise and the ground movement of 5 the vehicle. 6 Q: I see. 7 A: We never 100 percent ruled out the 8 fact the heart may have stopped. 9 Q: I see. 10 A: But, it was more likely. And the 11 more likely explanation made the most sense to me. 12 Q: I see. So, you accepted his 13 explanation and that's why in your ambulance report you 14 indicated the noise as a possibility? 15 A: Exactly. 16 Q: Yes. Now, so I'm going to suggest -- 17 explore some other factors with you if I may. 18 Now, you've us that at about the same time 19 as you recorded no pulse -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: -- you also found that his pupils 22 were not responsive, by shining a light in his eyes; is 23 that correct? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And also that he was unresponsive in

1 other ways in the sense that if you shook him, he didn't 2 respond; is that correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And in addition you, at that same 5 time, noticed him apparently not breathing? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And he seemed to be not conscious? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And in the course of trying to see if 10 he was responsive, you shook him a bit; is that correct? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And then, sometime shortly after 13 that, evidently, you were able to get a pulse of 62; is 14 that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And so the first pulse that you got 17 after that episode was a slower than normal pulse-rate; 18 is that correct? 19 A: A little bit -- 20 Q: Sixty-two (62)? 21 A: -- slower, yes. 22 Q: Yes? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And his breathing when you again 25 noticed it, was at the low end of normal, you told us, at

1 sixteen (16) -- 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: -- breaths per minute, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And the -- the lack of response from 6 the pupils by shining a light in his eyes, that would not 7 be affected by any noise of ambulance or anything, would 8 it? 9 A: No, other than -- the only thing that 10 could have been affected by maybe -- the head moved or 11 whatever, but... 12 Q: But you shined it right in his eyes 13 and -- 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: -- his pupil didn't -- didn't expand 16 as it should have, did it? 17 A: It should have shrunk, actually. 18 Q: Should have shrunk rather. Thank 19 you, yes. You do have expertise obviously. 20 Now -- and it didn't respond appropriately 21 and that wasn't affected by the fact that it was an old 22 ambulance making a lot of noise, was it? 23 A: Right. 24 Q: And similarly, your shaking him, his 25 failure to respond to that, that wasn't affected by any

1 noise? 2 A: Not that I'm aware of. 3 Q: And his lack of breathing was -- you 4 had earlier observed him breathing -- 5 A: Hmm hmm. 6 Q: -- and recorded the number of 7 breaths, and then at this point you looked and he 8 appeared not to be breathing at all; is that correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And again, it doesn't appear that the 11 ambulance noise would have affected that, particularly. 12 A: No, but if we had gone over a bump or 13 it was shaking a bit, that could affect how well I could 14 see his chest rise -- rising and falling. 15 Q: Yes. Yes. Now, also the ambulance 16 didn't get very noisy at that point and quieter 17 afterward, did it? 18 A: No, it was pretty much the same. 19 Q: Pretty much the same. And you were 20 able to record his pulse at the other times, the other 21 three (3) times that you indicated in the ambulance call 22 report, and get a positive reading; is that correct? 23 A: Right. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 Q: And the first pulse you recorded 2 after you recorded zero, the next one was sixty-two (62), 3 which is a little slower than normal -- 4 A: Hmm hmm. 5 Q: -- correct? 6 A: That's right. 7 Q: And after that it was seventy-eight 8 (78). 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And, in fact, if someone's heart was 11 beating normally in that sort of circumstance where the 12 person was -- had been through that kind of agitation, 13 you would expect a faster than normal pulse; is that 14 correct? 15 A: Eventually, yes. 16 Q: Yes. And then he regained 17 consciousness after this episode; is that correct? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And -- but -- but at that time, he 20 was more disoriented than he had been prior; is that 21 correct? 22 A: I can't answer that. I really -- I 23 don't remember and I didn't specify that in my report. 24 Q: You don't recall that, that he was 25 more disoriented as to time and place after that?

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: Thank you, Mr. 4 Commissioner. Thank you, that's that area. I'm not done 5 with my examination, but as far as the area that was 6 controversial that I wished to explore, I've now done so. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 10 Q: Now, did I understand correctly that 11 you were indicating that the reason it didn't cross your 12 mind that a Ministry ambulance that would be better 13 equipped as an ambulance and have medics who had better 14 training should do this job, was because the OPP medic 15 did not inform you of the extent of the injuries? 16 If he had informed you of the full extent 17 of the injuries or close to the full extent, you would 18 have suggested they try for a Ministry ambulance; is that 19 correct? 20 A: Looking back on it, yes. At the 21 time, yeah. 22 Q: Yes, yes, yes, yes. At the time it 23 was a relatively casual and I think you described handing 24 over of patient that didn't seem to be a dire emergency, 25 correct?

1 A: I don't know if casual's a good word 2 but it didn't seem as -- he was as hurt as he was for 3 lack of a better phrase. 4 Q: Yes. And it didn't seem that it was 5 very urgent to get him to hospital. 6 A: Well -- 7 Q: It seemed he needed hospital care but 8 not -- not in a very urgent way? 9 A: He needed hospital care, yes. But 10 not lights and sirens as per se. 11 Q: Yes. 12 A: Or -- 13 Q: I'm sorry? 14 A: Nothing. 15 Q: I see. Now, when -- I didn't quite 16 understand the implications of what you said in response 17 to a question about someone informing you as he or she 18 turned over a patient that the patient was or was not 19 intoxicated. You said that that might bias your view? 20 A: Potentially. But, that's something I 21 should be assessing as well myself. 22 Q: Yes. But -- but, you indicated -- 23 I'm interested in what you meant by the concern about the 24 biassing your -- your view of the patient. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 A: It may bias care. And I really can't 4 answer that right now. 5 Q: Now we were told by Mr. Harding that 6 the mission that he sent you and Mr. Morgan out on was to 7 help the police maintain the communications vehicle and 8 that he didn't anticipate at that time that you'd be 9 providing any medical assistance. 10 Now were you fully aware of that as you 11 went out on this mission? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: So, you -- you knew that you were 14 going to be involved in a police operation and not as a 15 medical person but supporting the police in the 16 communications system? 17 A: I understood we were just to 18 replenish the communications post and if someone fell or 19 scraped themselves, they needed band-aid, to give them 20 that but that was it. 21 Q: I see. Now, when you attended on 22 September 6th, you spoke to a senior officer when you 23 first attended; is that correct? 24 A: Attended where? 25 Q: Sorry. At Forest.

1 A: My colleague and I met with a police 2 officer. I couldn't tell you who it was though anymore. 3 Q: And -- but he appeared to be a senior 4 officer; is that correct? 5 A: Appeared as much. 6 Q: And that person told you that there 7 was a potential that tensions were going to be 8 increasing; is that correct? 9 A: It's possible. I don't remember the 10 conversation word for word by any means. 11 Q: With your indulgence, Mr. 12 Commissioner. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: If you could please turn -- turn to 17 Tab 15 of the documents before you. And Tab 15 is a 18 statement that you gave to the Special Investigations 19 Unit? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now we all appreciate, in respect of 22 all the witnesses and including you of course, that it's 23 now many years after the event and your memory now is 24 much less than it would have been ten (10) years when the 25 event happened.

1 But, evidently this statement was given on 2 Wednesday, September 24, 1997; is that correct? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: So, that was quite a bit closer in 5 time to the events than we are now? 6 A: Hmm hmm. 7 Q: Is that correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: I should turn your attention if I may 10 to page 6 of that statement. And I'll -- I'll read you 11 certain portions in page 6, if I may, starting the second 12 time the name Karen appears in the left-hand column. 13 A: Hmm hmm. Hmm hmm. 14 Q: "I had been listening to the media 15 and I knew tensions were high, but 16 that's really mainly it. I know we 17 were stopped at Forest because we 18 reported in there before we went and 19 spoke to a couple of officers and they 20 said there's a potential for tensions 21 to increase tonight, but nothing really 22 specific that I recall." 23 Then the person examining you was Ms. 24 Cuthbertson. She then says: 25 "Okay. And that would have around ten

1 o'clock?" 2 And you answer: 3 "Yeah, roughly in that time. I don't 4 know exactly anymore. 5 Ms. Cuthbertson: Do you recall who 6 you talked to while you -- while you 7 were at Forest? 8 Karen: I honestly don't recall. 9 Cuthbertson: Did you get an 10 impression as to the rank in the 11 hierarchy of the police? Was it a 12 senior officer or...? 13 Karen: He was a senior officer; he 14 sounded like he was running the show, 15 actually." 16 So, that's apparently what you said at 17 that time, would you agree? 18 A: Yes, and -- I would say that is 19 correct as it's... 20 Q: Sorry? 21 A: That's my statement from then. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just a 23 minute, Mr. Rosenthal. 24 Ms. Tuck-Jackson...? 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Just in

1 fairness, if -- if Mr. Rosenthal could continue to 2 provide, for the record, the description that the Witness 3 and, indeed, whether or not she could actually provide a 4 proper description. It just continues in the transcript, 5 to be fair. 6 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: I'm pleased to do 7 so. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How far -- 9 okay, carry on. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 12 Q: You -- after -- My Friend wishes me 13 to continue and I shall. 14 After you said: 15 "He was a senior officer; he sounded 16 like he was running the show, 17 actually." 18 Then Ms. Cuthbertson says: 19 "I see. Can you describe him at all?" 20 You say: 21 "Like physical description? 22 Ms. Cuthbertson: Sure, grey hair, 23 dark hair? 24 You: "Dark hair. I think he had a 25 moustache. I can't remember exactly,

1 it's been a long time." 2 I hope that satisfies My Friend. I'm 3 happy to read the entire document, but I -- I would 4 prefer not. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 6 think that's necessary. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 9 Q: Now, the part that I was interested 10 in, is refreshing your memory and apparently you spoke to 11 someone who you took as -- as a senior officer; is that 12 correct? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And, someone that looked senior 15 enough that you, at least, concluded that he sounded like 16 he was running the show, actually? 17 A: Hmm hmm. 18 Q: Right? 19 A: As my statement here states, yes. 20 Q: And you don't have any reason to -- 21 to disbelieve that now, do you? 22 A: No. 23 Q: No. I mean, you had, obviously, no 24 vested interest in this at all, you just told people any 25 time you were asked what you honestly remembered; isn't

1 that fair? 2 A: That's fair enough. 3 Q: So -- and -- and that person, then, 4 did tell you that there's a potential for tension to 5 increase tonight, but nothing really specific, right? 6 A: As stated in my statement there. 7 Q: Yes. As you -- even with that aid, 8 you don't recall it now? 9 A: I -- like I said earlier, I really 10 don't remember the conversation well. 11 Q: Yes. So... 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 Q: My Friend, Ms. Vella, suggested it 16 would be appropriate to make this document an exhibit. I 17 don't have a copy that's suitable to be made an exhibit, 18 but I'm sure Ms. Vella, in addition to making the 19 suggestion, will provide a copy. So, this is for the 20 record today -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The 22 transcript of the interview, the SIU interview? 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One zero 2 zero (100) -- 3 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: So, the document 4 that we intend to make an exhibit, then, is the SIU 5 interview of Karen Bakker headed, Anticipated Evidence of 6 Karen Bakker. It's Document Number 1004602 of the Inquiry 7 Documents. 8 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P-344, Your 9 Honour. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-344. 11 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just -- just for the 12 record, in particular, the excerpt which was recited and 13 adopted as a past recollection recorded at page 6 is the 14 excerpt, particularly, that I want this to be made an 15 exhibit for. The rest of the document has not been 16 reviewed by the -- with the Witness. 17 So, I just want to say that for the 18 record. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 20 21 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-344: Document 1004602 September 22 24/'97 Anticipated evidence 23 of Karen Bakker 24 25 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: That suggests a

1 question I should ask the Witness, actually. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: 4 Q: In preparation for your testimony 5 here today, did you review this document? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And do you accept it as an accurate 8 recording of what you would have said in September of 9 1997? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And would you agree that your 12 recollection then would have been more accurate and more 13 detailed, perhaps, than your recollection now? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Thank you. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 Q: Now, did you hear on that evening any 20 discussion of the possibility that politicians, Premier 21 Harris or any other politicians, were interested in this 22 situation and wanted the First Nations people out of the 23 Park? 24 A: I don't recall anyone even discussing 25 any politicians that evening?

1 Q: You don't recall any such 2 conversation. 3 Did you get the understanding before you 4 went to the scene, that the police were going to be doing 5 something about First Nations who were in the Ipperwash 6 Park? 7 A: No. 8 Q: I see. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 Q: Now, before the OPP medic spoke to 13 you with respect to Mr. Cecil Bernard George, he had 14 spoken to you earlier, indicating that the situation had 15 changed; is that correct? 16 A: It's possible. 17 Q: Well, perhaps it would be useful to 18 look at that same document again that we just did, at Tab 19 15 of your materials. 20 And page 6 of that document, again, but 21 this time I should begin where I left off. Maybe I will 22 have to read the entire document, Mr. Commissioner. 23 Looking at the bottom of page 6, then. 24 �Ms. Cuthbertson: Okay, and who was 25 it that you talked to when you first

1 got there? 2 Karen: The OPP paramedic. I don't 3 remember his name. 4 Cuthbertson: Okay. And it was that 5 officer that informed you that your 6 status had now changed from, sort of, 7 being helpful, refuelling the command 8 post, to someone who was on standby?� 9 Then, continuing to page 7, your answer: 10 �Yes.� 11 And then to -- so that My Friend doesn't 12 require me to: 13 �Ms. Cuthbertson: Can you provide a 14 description?� 15 And then you say: 16 �He was a forty (40) year old, 17 Caucasian. He was a big guy. 18 Cuthbertson: Tall? 19 Karen: Tall and just broad across the 20 shoulders. I don't remember much else. 21 Sorry, it was dark. 22 Cuthbertson: Do you remember what he 23 was wearing? 24 Karen: He was in a bulletproof vest, 25 kind of like a uniform but not, it was

1 like a SWAT team. 2 Cuthbertson: Camouflage? 3 Karen: Yes, I believe so. Again, it 4 was so dark. It was dark, so... 5 Cuthbertson: And he identified 6 himself as the paramedic? 7 Yes.� And so on. 8 Now, what I was interested in, 9 particularly, was the part on page 6 where Ms. 10 Cuthbertson asked you: 11 �Was that officer that informed you 12 that your status had now changed from, 13 sort of, being helpful to someone who 14 was on standby?� 15 And you answered: �Yes�. 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: Does that help refresh your memory? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: So, and this is the same officer who 20 later asked you to take over the care and transport of 21 Mr. Cecil Bernard George; is that correct? 22 A: Yes, I think so. 23 Q: Now, what was your understanding of 24 what the role is of a person who is an OPP medic, as 25 opposed to a St. John's Ambulance medic, as opposed to a

1 Ministry of Health ambulance medic? 2 What does an OPP medic -- what did you 3 understand his role to be that evening? 4 A: I understood he was an OPP officer 5 with a paramedic background as well. 6 Q: I see. And as such, he would have 7 different responsibilities from you and from a Ministry 8 medic, right? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: As an OPP officer, you understood his 11 responsibility would be to the Force and your 12 responsibilities and the Ministry's resp -- Ministry 13 medic's responsibilities would be somewhat different; is 14 that correct? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Now, turning then to the time when 17 Mr. Cecil Bernard George was turned over to your care, 18 your colleague Mr. Morgan testified that he believed that 19 Mr. Cecil Bernard George's hands were restrained in the 20 front of his body. 21 Do you recall that? 22 A: It is possible. 23 Q: At this point you don't recall either 24 way but it's possible? 25 A: I'm saying it's possible because I

1 really -- I don't want to say one way or the other 2 because I'm not 100 percent sure. 3 Q: I see. But, it -- it sounds like you 4 think it's more likely that it's correct? 5 A: It is more likely that it's correct. 6 Q: But, you're not absolutely sure? 7 A: Exactly. 8 Q: Is that fair? 9 A: That's fair. 10 Q: Thank you. Now, Mr. Morgan also 11 testified that he believed that some OPP officers said 12 certain words to him and I would like to ask you if you 13 overheard these words being said; words to the effect: 14 "It's standard when transporting a 15 Native casualty that we have a police 16 officer accompanying us." 17 Do you recall hearing words to that effect 18 by some OPP officer to Mr. Morgan? 19 A: I honestly don't remember. 20 Q: Don't remember. I believe yesterday 21 you told us that you weren't sure whether or not the OPP 22 medic officer had informed you that Mr. Bernard George 23 had been losing consciousness from time to time, right? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: Now, I would suggest to you that if

1 he had told you that, that this patient was losing 2 consciousness from time to time that would have alerted 3 you to the fact that this patient was a patient in too 4 serious a condition for St. John's Ambulance to handle 5 and you would have inquired at least about Ministry 6 ambulances; isn't that fair? 7 A: Fair enough looking back on it. 8 Q: Yes. And you would have then 9 realized that this patient should have a collar when he 10 was transported and you would have added a collar if -- 11 if you'd been told someone was losing consciousness, 12 right? 13 A: When we debriefed and took a look at 14 the situation, that would be a fair assumption. 15 Q: I'm sorry? 16 A: When we took a look at the situation 17 to see what we could have done better, that would be a 18 fair assumption. 19 Q: Yes. No, but I'm suggesting that if 20 you had been informed by the OPP medic that he was losing 21 consciousness, and you're not sure whether he were or not 22 and that I'm suggesting to you that had you been, you 23 would have thought a Ministry ambulance -- I'm also 24 suggesting to you, had you been so informed you would 25 have certainly thought of a collar then if he told you

1 that, right? 2 A: We would have considered it, yes. 3 Q: Yes. So, I'm suggesting that the 4 fact that you didn't consider at that point, the question 5 of whether a Ministry ambulance should have been called 6 and the question of whether or not a collar should be put 7 on suggests that probably the officer did not inform you 8 that Mr. Bernard George was losing consciousness? 9 A: I would say probably. 10 Q: Yes. In any event, the officer who 11 advised you of the patient's condition conveyed the 12 impression that he was not very badly hurt; isn't that 13 fair? 14 A: That's fair. 15 Q: Now, you may not recall this but -- 16 and -- but you didn't ask the officer how the injuries 17 happened and he didn't inform you of that fact, right? 18 A: That's fair. 19 Q: But, I believe you indicated in an 20 earlier statement that -- that you normally would ask a 21 person -- if you're getting a patient turned over to you, 22 you normally ask, how did this patient suffer this 23 problem, right? 24 A: Yes. After my experiences. 25 Q: Because -- because it can be

1 important and especially for the immediate medical 2 diagnosis of the patient to know what happened to him to 3 get him in that circumstance, right? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: If someone tells you he was hit in 6 the back of the head, then you look at the back of the 7 head first thing, right? 8 A: Right. 9 Q: And so on. So -- but you didn't ask 10 on this occasion because of the fact that the person 11 turning him over was a police officer; isn't that right? 12 A: That could be one (1) reason, yes. 13 Q: Well if we could turn again to -- to 14 the same statement at Tab 15 at page 10 and it should now 15 be referred to My Friend reminds me as Exhibit P-344. 16 Thank you. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 I'll read to you, beginning about a third 21 of the way down from that page. Ms. Cuthbertson asked 22 you, I'll read your statement right in the middle of the 23 page: 24 "Karen: Not at all. I had no idea how 25 these injuries happened.

1 Ms. Cuthbertson: Just from my 2 previous experience with the unit and 3 talking with ambulance drives, 4 generally speaking when they go to pick 5 up a patient one of the first questions 6 they ask is, what happened?" 7 And your answer is recorded: 8 "Normally I would say yes but because 9 he was a police officer, I didn't ask 10 any questions and I just took him in 11 and did my job. I didn't want to get 12 involved." 13 So, does that refresh your memory now? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: So, it was because he was a police 16 officer that you didn't ask what would be a natural 17 question? 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: And why did his being a police 20 officer stop you from asking that natural question and 21 what did you mean when you said you, "didn't want to get 22 involved"? 23 A: To answer the first question, quite 24 frank I was a lot younger then and you didn't ask 25 questions of police officers, you just did what you were

1 told. 2 Q: I see. Right. 3 A: And that was my lack of experience at 4 the time. 5 Q: Right. 6 A: The second question I -- as to why I 7 didn't want to get involved, I'm not 100 percent sure as 8 to why I said that. 9 Q: I see. 10 A: It's probably more to the case of he 11 was a police officer, I took the patient and I was 12 instructed to get him to hospital and that was it. 13 Q: I see. So, you were at the time 14 somewhat in awe of police officers in the sense that you 15 -- you didn't want to question a police officer? 16 A: That's a pretty fair statement. 17 Q: But then not wanting to get involved, 18 was it because you realized that there was some 19 altercation apparently between the police and this 20 gentleman and you didn't want to get involved in that, 21 you just wanted to deal with him medically; is that 22 perhaps what you meant? 23 A: I just wanted to deal with him 24 medically and get him to hospital is probably what I was 25 thinking at the time so...

1 Q: Now, Mr. Morgan indicated, your 2 colleague, that there was some consideration of the 3 possibility of Sarnia Hospital versus Strathroy Hospital 4 as the destination for Mr. George. 5 I gather the Sarnia Hospital at the time 6 was a much better equipped hospital than the Strathroy 7 Hospital; was that your understanding? 8 A: To be honest with you I can't really 9 answer that. I was more familiar with Strathroy. I'd 10 never been into Sarnia so I couldn't evaluate either -- 11 like I couldn't compare them. 12 Q: I see. Do you recall a discussion as 13 to which hospital would be appropriate to take Mr. George 14 to? 15 A: There was a very brief discussion and 16 I don't remember much of it. Just that we talked about 17 the two (2) hospitals. 18 Q: Could you assist us with whatever you 19 do remember? 20 A: What I do remember was, basically 21 they were looking at which is faster to get to and we 22 were about the middle so it was, 6 of 1, half dozen of 23 the other. 24 Q: So, it was just -- the evaluation was 25 which is closest, not -- not which has better possibility

1 of assisting Mr. George? 2 A: Exactly. 3 Q: I see. Thank you very much. Thank 4 you, Mr. Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 6 Mr. Rosenthal. 7 I think, Mr. Scullion...? 8 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'd be overlapping 9 with Mr. Rosenthal's questions, so I'll exercise my 10 option, or less, and say I have no questions at all, Mr. 11 Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 13 Mr. Scullion. 14 I think Mr. George is up. 15 MR. JONATHAN GEORGE: I don't have any 16 questions, Your Honour. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 18 Aboriginal Legal Services...? Mr. 19 Eyolfson...? No? 20 MR. BRIAN EYOLFSON: No, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That brings 22 us to Mr. Roland I think. 23 You have a question? 24 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes, I'm here. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Ms. Tuck-

1 Jackson has a question. 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON. 4 Q: Good morning, Ms. Bakker-Stephens. 5 My name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson. I'm counsel for the OPP. 6 I just wanted to follow up on one area 7 that Mr. Rosenthal questioned you about and that was your 8 understanding of the OPP medics' responsibilities -- 9 A: Hmm hmm. 10 Q: -- and in particular, Mr. Rosenthal 11 asked you about your understanding of his obligations to 12 the police and that they were, perhaps, different from 13 your obligations and the obligations of -- of the 14 Ministry of Health ambulance attendants and I just wanted 15 to -- to make it clear what the import of your answer 16 was, which means that we have to explore the question 17 that was asked. 18 Was it your understanding that the OPP 19 medic -- 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: -- only was required to provide 22 medical support to OPP officers? 23 A: No. 24 Q: All right. This is what I wanted to 25 clarify. It was your understanding that the OPP medic

1 was required to provide medical support to anyone at the 2 scene who required it? 3 A: I believe so. 4 Q: Thank you. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 6 Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 7 Now, Mr. Roland. 8 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 10 A: Good morning, Ms. Bakker-Stephens. 11 My name's Ian Roland, I act on behalf of the Ontario 12 Provincial Police Association. I have a few questions 13 for you this morning. 14 To begin, I'd like to explore a little 15 bit, your training as a nurse or a practical nurse. I 16 just want to understand your evidence about that. 17 You told us yesterday in response to 18 Commission Counsel's questions that you -- do I have it 19 right, you completed two (2) of three (3) years of a 20 registered nursing course at Fanshawe College? 21 A: Two-and-a-half (2 1/2), yes. 22 Q: Two-and-a-half (2 1/2) years? 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: All right. So, in September of '95 I 25 take it you had completed two (2) years, had you, or you

1 were about to start the third year? 2 A: In September of '95 I was repeating a 3 semester. 4 Q: You repeat -- were repeating a 5 semester? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. That's because you hadn't been 8 successful in the earlier semester? 9 A: In the one from January until the 10 spring, yes. 11 Q: And then, I take it, you switched 12 from the RN course, was it shortly thereafter, to the RPN 13 course? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And that's a one (1) year course, 16 normally? 17 A: Normally. 18 Q: Not a three (3) year course. So, you 19 didn't complete the three (3) year RN course; you, 20 instead, switched to the one (1) year RPN course, but in 21 the end it took you a total of three (3) years at 22 Fanshawe College to get that? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: All right. And, so you never did 25 actually qualify as a Registered Nurse? You're not a

1 Registered Nurse and you've never been a Registered 2 Nurse? 3 A: Exactly and I've never presented 4 myself to be that way. 5 Q: All right. In the course of your 6 training -- the course of your education, while you were 7 taking the Registered Nurse's course, do I understand it 8 that generally in the first year of such course, it's 9 mostly classes; basic anatomy, nutrition, body systems, 10 things like that? 11 A: It is that with some clinical, yes. 12 Q: Yes. And do you -- in the second 13 year, do you -- you do classes and a practicum I take it, 14 do you? 15 A: At Fanshawe College, at the time, you 16 actually classes and practicums since the first day you 17 walked in the door. 18 Q: All right. And when you're -- when 19 you're doing practicums I -- I take it you're working in 20 very restricted controlled areas and circumstances? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And you're -- you're working with 23 nurses -- registered nurses? 24 A: Most definitely. 25 Q: And, you're doing the usual thing

1 that students do; feeding and cleaning patients; you 2 might take some vital signs under supervision? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: But it's -- it's a highly structured 5 and controlled setting in -- your generally in a 6 hospital? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And, you rotate, I take -- I gather, 9 in the practicums through some -- some various areas of 10 the hospitals; one of them would not generally be 11 Emergency, would it? 12 A: Definitely not. 13 Q: No. And, so you don't have any 14 practicum and any kind of first-hand experience in -- 15 even as a student, working in an Emergency Department? 16 A: No. 17 Q: And, I take it in the training that 18 you -- you would go through as a -- a student nurse, you 19 learned CPR? 20 A: That's mandatory prior to entering 21 the program. 22 Q: Yeah, but you don't do it on a 23 person, you do it on a dummy, right? 24 A: Exactly. 25 Q: And this is basic CPR training, isn't

1 it? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: The kind of training that you'd take, 4 for instance, if you were taking a babysitting course? 5 A: Well, the babysitting course only 6 covers part of the basic CPR course. 7 Q: Yes. All right. And I gather, then, 8 you -- you've never worked, obviously, as a registered 9 nurse, and working as a registered practical nurse, do I 10 have it from what you've told us that you've not worked 11 in any emergency situation? 12 You've not worked in an emergency 13 department? 14 A: No, I'm a community nurse. 15 Q: You're a community nurse? You 16 haven't worked with people in crisis or in trauma? 17 A: No. 18 Q: No. That's not any of your practical 19 experience as a working registered practical nurse? 20 A: No. 21 Q: And so you don't have any experience, 22 then, treating ill or injured patients, even as a 23 registered practical nurse who are -- who are presenting 24 with illness or injury? 25 A: Well no, as a registered practical

1 nurse, you're still dealing with ill people, but they are 2 patients that have a predictable outcome. 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: And if a patient does end up becoming 5 ill suddenly, then I would exercise my option to either 6 call 911 depending on the situation or call an RN for 7 some assistance and some guidance or call the doctor. It 8 really depends on the situation. 9 Q: Yeah. But, you're working in a 10 controlled setting with, as you say, predictable and -- 11 and anticipated outcomes. 12 A: When I'm working in my nursing 13 function, yes. 14 Q: Yes. In your -- in your practical 15 nursing function? 16 A: It's strictly a practical nursing 17 function, yes. 18 Q: Okay. And so when any help is needed 19 because there's a person's illness turns in some 20 direction unpredicted, you get help? 21 A: Exactly. 22 Q: Now, in terms of your experience with 23 St. John's Ambulance, do I understand it that -- or is it 24 fair, from what you've said, that this was the first 25 occasion on September 6th, '95, that you found yourself

1 in an ambulance transporting an injured patient from the 2 scene of the injury? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: That had never happened to you 5 before? 6 A: Never. 7 Q: I take it it hasn't happened to you 8 since? 9 A: Nope. 10 Q: And so -- and you hadn't been trained 11 or shown any of this in any -- any of the time that you 12 were with St. John's Ambulance either, had you? You'd 13 never, ever been taken on a ride with a sick patient in 14 an ambulance before? 15 A: Not in real life, no. 16 Q: No. I take it it was a pretty scary 17 experience for you, then? 18 A: That's an understatement. 19 Q: Yeah. I mean, is it fair to say -- 20 you've told us about the -- about the -- the fact that 21 the adrenaline -- your adrenaline was really flowing -- 22 A: Hmm hmm. 23 Q: -- that it was, looking back, a 24 really quite a terrifying experience, given your -- given 25 your lack of training and lack of knowledge about this

1 kind of situation? 2 A: Yes. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: And had you ever previously taken 7 vital signs of a patient with a depressed level of 8 consciousness, even -- obviously you'd not done it in an 9 ambulance transport, but otherwise where there's a 10 patient who's got a depressed level of consciousness; 11 someone who's seriously injured, not a cut or a scrape, 12 and taken vital signs? 13 A: Not in the context of an injury, no. 14 Q: No. To the extent you've done it, 15 you've done it in a controlled setting, I take it, with - 16 - by training? 17 A: Yes, and there's always -- 18 Q: For the purpose of training? 19 A: For the purpose of training, yes. 20 Q: Yes. And I gather you recognize as 21 the, I think the literature indicates, that it's -- it's 22 often difficult to get a carotid pulse? 23 It takes some skill and some training to 24 be able -- to be able to -- 25 A: To get a carotid --

1 Q: -- identify and get a carotid pulse? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: It's not something that's easy to do, 4 even for people who -- who are practising it? 5 A: In that situation, yes. 6 Q: All right. And in that situation, 7 even getting a radial pulse can be a challenge, can it 8 not? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And did -- do I understand from the 11 answers you gave just momentarily to Mr. Rosenthal that - 12 - that Cecil Bernard George may have been handcuffed with 13 his hands in front of him while you were transporting 14 him? 15 A: Not while we were transporting him. 16 Q: Okay. He wasn't handcuffed while you 17 were transporting him? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. Sorry, I misunderstood that. 20 Now, let's talk a little about -- about 21 respiration. 22 And I gather we've agreed that normal 23 respiration is when you're at rest? 24 A: Right. 25 Q: And, that's between twelve (12) to

1 sixteen (16) or twelve (12) to eighteen (18)? 2 A: In my schooling, it was actually 3 sixteen (16) to eighteen (18) or -- 4 Q: I see. 5 A: -- sixteen (16) to twenty (20) but -- 6 Q: You know, for example, that -- that 7 it depends very much on the individual. 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And, such is also the case with 10 respect to pulse? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: That it's individually variable? 13 A: Definitely. 14 Q: And, you put a normal pulse ran -- 15 range of seventy (70) to a hundred (100). 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: The literature indicates -- in some 18 literature that I've seen, a normal range of sixty (60) 19 to ninety (90). 20 A: That's fair. 21 Q: That's fair? 22 A: That's fair. 23 Q: All right. And, we know for the -- 24 the individual variabilities is shown as extreme as by 25 someone like Lance Armstrong. We all know Lance

1 Armstrong who, I'm told, has a -- has a pulse -- sorry, 2 he has a pulse rate at rest of thirty-two (32); it's 3 extraordinarily low. It's what -- one (1) of the things 4 that allows Lance to do what he can do. 5 A: He's a very athletic man, yeah. He's 6 a very athletic man, so... 7 Q: Yeah, and he has a -- he has a pulse 8 rate at maximum of two hundred and twenty (220), which 9 again, is an extreme end, isn't it? 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: Yeah. So, these -- the pulse rate is 12 variable. The norm, though, we know is around -- 13 somewhere around seventy (70) or eighty (80). 14 A: Hmm hmm. 15 Q: Fair? 16 A: Fair. 17 Q: Okay. And, in extreme exercises 18 individuals, even who aren't great athletes, can get up 19 as high as two hundred (200)? 20 A: Fair enough. 21 Q: Yeah. Now, did you recall that you 22 had a stethoscope with you on the ambulance or not? 23 A: I probably did. 24 Q: Because I looked at the -- at the 25 inventory of equipment that was, I think exhibited with

1 Mr. Morgan when he testified and there didn't seem to be 2 a stethoscope indicated on the inventory. 3 A: But, it may have been my personal 4 stethoscope. 5 Q: I see. And, that surprises me a bit, 6 because I understand that when you were -- when you went 7 to Forest -- 8 A: Hmm hmm. 9 Q: -- being assigned there, you were 10 there to provide assistance for the communications unit; 11 you weren't there, as you understood it when you -- when 12 you went to Forest -- 13 A: Hmm hmm. 14 Q: -- to do any kind of patient 15 treatment or assessment? 16 A: Well, it was probably old habit, 17 because I had a bag at home that was St. John's stuff, so 18 if I was going to deal with St. John, that contained my - 19 - I had a tie, a beret and I usually had my stethoscope 20 with that bag. 21 Q: I see. 22 A: So, if I was going out on any duties, 23 I had everything. 24 Q: I see, okay. So, you think you took 25 your bag with you?

1 A: I would assume so, because I would 2 have had to have been in uniform that night. 3 Q: Yeah. All right. What I gather is, 4 you don't remember actually using your stethoscope? 5 A: No. 6 Q: All right. And, to determine 7 respiration, you said that you put your hand on the chest 8 of Cecil Bernard George? 9 A: I don't recall saying, "Put my hand 10 on the chest," I remember saying, "visually." 11 Q: Oh, you visually -- I'm sorry, you 12 visually looked at it? I'm sorry. 13 A: That's generally how you -- 14 Q: I see. 15 A: -- count breaths is visual. 16 Q: I see, you don't -- you didn't put 17 your hand on his chest? 18 A: I don't recall testifying that, I -- 19 Q: No, I -- no, I'm -- 20 A: -- and, I don't believe I did, 21 either, so -- 22 Q: I'm not suggesting you did. Do you 23 recall doing that? Is that something that you would do? 24 A: Not usually on an adult. 25 Q: All right. And, did -- one (1) of

1 the things I understand that is normal in determining 2 respiration is not only putting a hand on the chest, but 3 also putting your cheek close to his mouth to see if 4 there was respiration from his mouth; did you do that? 5 A: I can't remember that part. The only 6 time I would do that is if I could hardly see it 7 visually, that I would get that close -- the cheek part. 8 Q: Well, you've told us that you 9 couldn't see it visually at one (1) stage, but I gather 10 not being able to see it visually, you don't recall 11 putting your cheek to his -- his mouth to see if you 12 could feel breath? 13 A: I -- I probably did, then, at that 14 point. 15 Q: You -- you don't recall one (1) way 16 or the other? 17 Did -- is that something you'd ever done 18 before? 19 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: She had given an 20 answer, she said she probably did she said. 21 THE WITNESS: That part was such a blur, 22 I was so -- when I couldn't find it, to be honest with 23 you I panicked and -- 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND:

1 Q: All right. Okay. Fair enough. 2 Now, when -- when a person stops 3 breathing, that's -- in your panic you thought he'd 4 stopped breathing? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: They become cyanotic, don't they? 7 A: If they stop breathing long enough. 8 Q: Yeah. But, they start to turn white? 9 A: They can. 10 Q: Pale? Blue around the lips? 11 A: They can. 12 Q: You look -- you can look at their 13 nail beds and see that they're discoloured? 14 A: If you have time to. 15 Q: Yes. And I take it from your report 16 you didn't identify any of those signs? In fact, your 17 report says he that was, as I see it, pink throughout the 18 trip. 19 A: I would go with what's in the report. 20 Q: Yeah. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: If you look at the report, you'll see 25 you've written --

1 A: Are you talking the one at Tab 1? 2 Q: Tab 1, yes, at the bottom far right. 3 Skin, there's vital signs and there appears to be on this 4 words that are above the -- the form, skin temperature, 5 but it's hard -- you can't really tell them. 6 But, they are -- but you've written: 7 �warm, pink and moist�. 8 A: Okay. That was a general statement 9 for the whole ride, like -- 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: -- I didn't specify as to when it was 12 warm, pink and moist. 13 Q: And I take it, if you had -- if you 14 had identified that he was cyanotic, that he was white, 15 pale blue around the lips, all that sort of stuff, you 16 would have put that in? 17 A: Probably. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: But, you need to note as well, the 20 lighting in the back of the ambulance was not that great. 21 Q: I see. Okay. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: Now, when we -- when we look at -- at

1 your readings, apart from the second reading staying 2 with -- 3 A: Hmm hmm. 4 Q: -- Tab 1, being your ambulance unit 5 patient report, we see at the bottom that the three (3) 6 readings that you do record, the first, sec -- the third 7 and fourth readings, I take it you agree are within 8 normal range? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And in fact, for a patient they're 11 quite consistent, aren't they, amongst themselves? 12 A: If you just take those -- the three 13 (3) -- 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: -- then yes. 16 Q: They're -- they're quite consistent. 17 They're certainly not consistent with someone who's gone 18 into shock or -- and come out of shock, are they? 19 A: Well, to be quite honest with you, I 20 don't have a lot of experience treating patients that 21 have gone in and out of shock. 22 Q: Yeah. In fact, have you ever? 23 A: Nope. 24 Q: All right. Not that you have not a 25 lot of experience, you have no experience, do you?

1 A: In that case, no. 2 Q: Okay. And I take it, then, you don't 3 realize that when someone is going into shock, that their 4 pulse and respiration... 5 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: This Witness has 6 very candidly given her evidence and indicated the limits 7 of her expertise and Mr. Roland gets an answer to a 8 question, You don't know anything about shock, and then 9 he proceeds to continue to ask her more about the affects 10 of going into shock. 11 I would respectfully request that she not 12 be made to feel further uncomfortable by these kind of 13 questions. 14 MR. IAN ROLAND: Let me rephrase it a 15 bit. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 19 Q: I anticipate there's going to be 20 evidence called from medical experts that when a person 21 goes into shock, they become pale and ashen and their 22 heart and respiration become very rapid, hundred and 23 twenty (120) heart, twenty (20) plus respiration, and 24 that's because of a lack of tissue profusion; there's no 25 -- there's not exchange of oxygen going on.

1 A: Exactly. 2 Q: And so to compensate, the heart and 3 breathing speed up. 4 A: Correct. 5 Q: I take it you didn't -- you didn't 6 observe any of that? 7 A: I can't say I observed a lot of that, 8 but you've got to remember too, when you're in an 9 emergency room you have bright lights, you have machines, 10 you have patients hooked up. I didn't have those 11 options. 12 Q: I understand. I'm not being 13 critical. I'm just saying -- just I wanted just the fact 14 that you didn't observe any of the phenomena that go with 15 a person going into shock as I've described it? 16 A: The other thing you need to remember, 17 I have not specified those times those vitals were 18 taken -- 19 Q: Yes. 20 A: And I could have taken that first 21 set, started my assessment, he could have gone into shock 22 after that set was taken, and I wouldn't have seen those 23 other phenomena for lack of a better phrase, for the 24 pulse going up et cetera. 25 Q: But, in any event what you're telling

1 me -- telling us, I take it, is you didn't observe -- you 2 didn't observe him being pale or ashen, you didn't 3 observe a rapid heartbeat or rapid respiration, you 4 didn't observe any of those things did you? 5 A: Not generally and not specifically. 6 Q: No. And I take you don't know one 7 way or the other whether a person who's going into shock 8 can recover from shock without intervention? That's not 9 something you're aware of? 10 A: Not really. 11 Q: No. I think we'll have some expert 12 evidence on that as well. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 Q: Now, with respect to your examination 17 of Cecil Bernard's pupil's you note in your report... 18 A: Hmm hmm. 19 Q: On the second page, you write: 20 "Pupils were not pearl." 21 And then -- is it -- I can't read that, is 22 that, "when" -- 23 A: Hmm hmm. 24 Q: -- "unable to assess."? 25 A: Hmm hmm.

1 Q: Okay. And so you've already told us 2 yesterday that this period of time that you were unable 3 to assess, that is the second -- the time of the second 4 reading or attempt when you couldn't get a pulse or 5 respiration and the third one of sixty-two (62) and 6 sixteen (16) was less than a minute? 7 A: Probably, I didn't look at my watch. 8 I couldn't tell you. 9 Q: Yeah but you -- you -- you told Ms. 10 Vella yesterday that you -- in your estimation was less 11 than a minute. 12 A: Probably. 13 Q: And so I take it that this -- this 14 evaluation of his pupils was in that -- in that minute 15 period was it? 16 A: Hmm hmm. 17 Q: In that less than a minute period? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: All right. And then after you were 20 able to get the third reading, I take his pupils were 21 reacting, were they? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: All right. And of course we -- 24 'pearl' means, 'pupils equal and reactive to light'? 25 A: Right.

1 Q: Right. Now you've told us this 2 morning in response to Mr. Rosenthal's question that you 3 may have mistaken that because he moved his head? 4 A: He may have -- that's what I said to 5 him, yes. 6 Q: Yes. And I gather that -- did you -- 7 did you note or did you think you noted his pupils 8 dilated and fixed? 9 Is that what you thought you saw? 10 A: No they didn't respond to light. 11 Q: I see. So, that means they're 12 dilated? 13 A: No. That means they didn't go to a 14 pinpoint. 15 Q: Yes, which means they're dilated, 16 right? 17 A: Slightly, but dilated could also mean 18 that they get bigger and they did not get bigger. 19 Q: They didn't? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. And were they fixed? 22 A: Well, if they didn't respond to 23 light. 24 Q: All right. Do you -- do you -- have 25 you had a -- have you been required in the past to

1 examine a patient's pupils in these circumstances and 2 conditions? 3 Have you ever had to do that before this? 4 A: Not in those conditions. 5 Q: Okay. So, this was the first time 6 you had ever to do that? 7 A: I've examined pupils but in a 8 hospital setting. 9 Q: In a controlled lighted condition? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Not in a moving ambulance with -- 12 A: I've never done a patient transport 13 before. 14 Q: -- with as you say, poor -- poor 15 lighting? Fair enough. 16 And how long did you observe the pupils; 17 for how many seconds in this less than a minute? 18 A: Not very long. It doesn't take long 19 to do that. 20 Q: How long would it be; a couple of 21 seconds or what? 22 A: It's hard to quantify but probably. 23 Q: All right. And you recognize, I take 24 it, that from time to time the eye is -- or with some 25 people, the eye is sluggish in responding to light?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: In fact we all experience it don't we 3 when we go from a -- from a dark room into light, it 4 takes some time for the eye to adjust? 5 A: In that case it adjusts quite 6 quickly; if we go from a dark room into a light room. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: But -- 9 Q: But it -- with some people, it can be 10 a bit sluggish, can't it? 11 A: Not really. 12 Q: No. All right. And likewise when 13 you're going from a light room to a dark room, it takes a 14 bit of time to adjust, doesn't it? 15 A: A couple of seconds at most. 16 Q: Yeah, all right. Now, do you -- do 17 you all -- did you also recognize at the time, that 18 sometimes it's difficult to assess pupils where the 19 person's iris is dark; the same colour as the pupil -- 20 dark eyes? 21 A: Yes, but I could tell the difference 22 that -- 23 Q: You could? 24 A: -- night? 25 Q: You could. All right. But you

1 recognize that if, for example, for -- for persons with 2 light blue irises or brown irises, it's easier to -- to 3 observe the dilation of the pupils or the constriction of 4 the pupils than it is with someone with dark eyes -- with 5 dark irises? 6 A: To a point. 7 Q: Yes. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Now, we know from an anticipated 12 statement of Cecil Bernard George, this is Document 13 Number 1004620, it's his anticipated statement of July 14 18, 1996 at page 8 that he -- he recalls being put in the 15 ambulance and a lady asking him questions. 16 Sorry, I don't think it's part of your 17 documents, but take it from me that his anticipated 18 evidence says that he remembers a lady asking him 19 questions, things on his arm and he was sleepy and he 20 wanted to sleep. 21 A: That's fair enough. 22 Q: And there was a lady in the 23 ambulance, there were bright lights, and she said, come 24 back, you're not going anywhere. 25 Do you remember saying anything to him

1 like that? 2 A: No. 3 Q: No. Could it be that you said that 4 when you thought he was losing consciousness? 5 A: Could have. I don't remember exactly 6 what I said to him. I was more concerned about losing 7 him at that point. 8 Q: All right. But, that, at least from 9 his account, it -- it -- there's a sense that he has some 10 orientation to place and a person in that account, 11 doesn't he? 12 A: No, because when I asked him, What is 13 your name, do you know where you are, he did not answer. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. I see. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: There was -- there's been a good deal 19 of discussion about the OPP medic. Let me tell you, and 20 the -- my Counsel will notice from looking at the 21 documents available to them that -- that the OPP medic is 22 named Ted Slomer and he was not, and is not, an OPP 23 police officer. 24 It's a fair mistake on your part, because 25 I assume he was dressed much like the other officers that

1 were there, but rather he's a -- he's a -- was a medic, 2 and he is a medic, who was there assisting the OPP. 3 I'm not criticizing you at all, believe 4 me, about not knowing he's a police officer, but just so 5 that you understand that we were -- you were -- who you 6 were dealing with was not a policeman but a medic, who 7 had worked as an ambulance officer attendant, worked in 8 the military reserve in a medical unit, was a graduate 9 registered nurse in 1980 and at the time that these 10 events were -- were happening, he was employed as a 11 flight nurse and medic, flying on helicopters and fixed- 12 wing aircraft out of London. 13 He described himself -- he will describe 14 himself when he comes to testify -- I want to -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I take it 16 there's a question in there? 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yeah, I mean, I'm not 18 sure what the build-up of -- of this medic who 19 transferred this -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 21 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- injured man to her 22 is -- is relevant. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well -- 24 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I mean, if this is an 25 attempt to intimidate the Witness, then it's not

1 appropriate. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Right. And 3 if there is a -- 4 MS. SUSAN VELLA: If he would -- 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- question-- 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- just go to the 7 question. The fact that he wasn't a police officer is 8 one thing. He was a medic -- 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 10 MR. IAN ROLAND: Yeah. Well, he's not 11 only a medic. He was a very highly qualified medic and I 12 want to contextualize this when I come -- when we come to 13 this Witness then better understanding who she was 14 dealing with, when she was getting information. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, ask 16 the question now. 17 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. 18 19 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 20 Q: And -- and what he, I gather, will 21 say in the course of his evidence, we've -- we've got 22 statements from him, is that he -- he will say: 23 "I briefed the attendants as to my 24 findings [that's you and Mr. Morgan] 25 stating that the bottomline was that

1 he, Cecil Bernard George, had a 2 decreased level of consciousness and he 3 should be taken to hospital for 4 evaluation." 5 Now, do you remember that, telling him 6 that he -- telling you that he had a decreased level of 7 consciousness? 8 A: I believe I already answered that. 9 Q: Sorry? You don't -- well, I -- I 10 must have missed it, maybe you can help me. 11 MR. ANDREW ORKIN: Mr. Commissioner, I 12 believe she -- the Witness is correct. She answered that 13 question when I asked it. 14 She said that she was told or believed she 15 was told nothing about the circumstances of the injury 16 and little or nothing about the nature and extent of the 17 injuries. 18 MR. PETER ROSENTHAL: And respectfully, 19 Mr. Commissioner, I explored it further, suggesting if 20 she had been asked that question, she would have done 21 several things and she indicated she probably would have. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: And she did. 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: No, I know, but I 24 think more -- and -- and perhaps as relevant in my 25 questioning, I put this anticipated evidence to her and

1 it did not alter her recollection. 2 MR. IAN ROLAND: Well, that's what I'm -- 3 this particular evidence, I don't think was put by My 4 Friend from -- from Ted Slomer. 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry, I beg to 6 differ. It was. 7 I indicated that we anticipated hearing 8 evidence from the medic that he, in fact, did advise the 9 -- the attendants of the loss or decrease of 10 consciousness. I believe I did say that. I stand to be 11 corrected, but I believe I did say that. 12 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. Well, then 13 that's fine if that's the case. Thank you. 14 15 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND: 16 Q: I've given you a brief outline of Mr. 17 Slomer's qualifications. 18 I -- I take it you agree that he is more 19 qualified than you to deal with the situation that 20 confronted you concerning Cecil Bernard George? 21 A: I -- most definitely. 22 Q: All right. Do you know what a 23 Glasgow Coma Scale is? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And, we're going to evidence that he

1 performed a Glasgow Coma Scale assessment. Would that 2 give you more comfort about -- about the condition of Mr. 3 Cecil Bernard George as he was turned over to you by the 4 medic? 5 A: He didn't tell me what the Glasgow 6 Coma Scale rating was on this gentleman. 7 Q: All right. He -- he did a basic 8 trauma life support evaluation; do you know what that is? 9 A: Not anymore no. 10 Q: No. Now, the indication from Mr. 11 Slomer's statements is that he was informed that you were 12 a nurse. 13 Did you inform him that you were a nurse? 14 A: No, I said I was a nursing student. 15 Q: I see. 16 A: I have never let on that I was a 17 nurse at the time. I'm not an RN, I'm just an RPN. 18 Q: So, you told him that you were a 19 nursing student? 20 A: Hmm hmm. 21 Q: And, why did you do that? 22 A: I believe I was asked what my 23 background was and I wanted to be sure he was aware I was 24 not a paramedic or an EMT or anything to that extent. 25 Q: All right. Now, as I understand your

1 evidence, you were told by Ted Slomer that you -- that 2 Cecil Bernard George, from his assessment, hadn't been 3 consuming alcohol? 4 A: That's what he said, yes. 5 Q: Yes. And, if -- you don't recall 6 being told this, but if the concern of -- of the medic, 7 Ted Slomer, was a decreased level of consciousness, it 8 would be of some significance to know whether or not that 9 was due to the use of alcohol -- the imbibing of alcohol? 10 A: That's a fair assumption. 11 Q: And, so that this patient being 12 passed over to you for transport, if he had -- and the 13 concern was, a reduced level of consciousness, it would 14 be significant for you to know whether or not that was 15 due to alcohol or not? 16 A: It may have been helpful, yes. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Are you 18 going to be much longer, Mr. Roland? 19 MR. IAN ROLAND: Not too much longer. A 20 bit longer. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You 22 estimated fifteen (15) minutes and it's been a half hour. 23 I'm just wondering how much longer you're going to be so 24 we can decide when to break. If you're not going to be 25 much longer, I'd like you to finish.

1 MR. IAN ROLAND: I think I'll be a bit 2 longer. I think probably another ten (10) minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 4 think we should try to finish it before we break. 5 MR. IAN ROLAND: All right. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND. 8 Q: And one of the other things that your 9 note indicates that Mr. Slomer told you was that Cecil 10 Bernard George was responding to pain. 11 A: Hmm hmm. 12 Q: And I -- I take it that was something 13 important to know? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yeah. In terms of level of 16 consciousness? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: Now, upon arrival in the emergency 19 room, the medical hospital chart for Cecil Bernard 20 George, that's Document 1000047, indicates that he 21 arrived at eight (8) minutes after midnight. 22 I think that's probably a little earlier 23 recording than your recollection; isn't that right? 24 A: It could be. I didn't look at my 25 watch when we arrived.

1 Q: And on arrival, he -- it is said that 2 he was stuporous, rousable to questioning but giving 3 unfocussed response at first but gradually becoming more 4 coherent over the subsequent half hour. 5 As I understand it you were there and I 6 take it observed all that, did you? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And is that what you observed? 9 A: It's a fair assumption. 10 Q: And his blood pressure was taken at - 11 - and was one thirty over seventy (130/70) with a pulse 12 of eighty (80) and reasonably strong; did you observe 13 that? 14 A: Probably. I don't remember if it was 15 done by machine or done manually though. 16 Q: All right. And his pupils were equal 17 and reacted to light? 18 A: At that point. 19 Q: Yes. And the nursing notes show that 20 at twenty (20) minutes after, his pulse was ninety (90), 21 respiration twenty (20) and blood pressure one forty- 22 eight over eighty-eight (148/88) and he was conscious and 23 following verbal commands; did you observe that? 24 A: No disrespect, but those are the 25 nursing notes. Those were not my assessments and I may

1 have watched her take them but I didn't know her values 2 were -- 3 Q: All right. 4 A: -- or what she was writing down. 5 Q: Right. But from your observation, I 6 take it none of that -- none of that is inconsistent with 7 what you observed? 8 A: Again I don't know what values she 9 got. She took the pulse and didn't tell me what she got, 10 so how can I make an answer on that. 11 Q: But, isn't it fair to say that what - 12 - what appears is that on his arrival he was in much the 13 same condition as he was when you first took him into the 14 ambulance? 15 A: That's fair. 16 Q: All right. 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 Q: Actually that's -- I think that will 21 do it. Thank you very much. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 23 Mr. Roland. 24 MR. IAN ROLAND: Oh, sorry, there is one 25 (1) other question.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: One (1) 2 other question? 3 MR. IAN ROLAND: Sorry, excuse me. 4 5 CONTINUED BY MR. IAN ROLAND. 6 Q: Just -- just so that we've got it 7 clear on the record, when you were taken yesterday by Ms. 8 -- Ms. Vella to the correction that you made to -- to 9 your earlier statement with respect to snipers. 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: Just above that, this is at Tab 15, 12 there's another correction that wasn't put to you 13 although I think Ms. Vella may have touched it in other - 14 - in some other way. If you look at that page 1 -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sorry, I'm