1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 18th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein )            The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )   (np)     George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    )            Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )   (np)       Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena  (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )   (np)       Kettle Point & Stony
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  Colleen Johnson  )   (np)
 22  
 23  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 24  Walter Myrka     )
 25  Susan Freeborn   )   (np)

3
  1  
  2                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  3  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  4  David Nash       )   (np)       Lambton Shores
  5  
  6  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  7  Bill Hourigan    )   (np)       Harris
  8  Jennifer McAleer )
  9  
 10  Ian Smith        )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 11  Alice Mrozek     )   (np)
 12  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 13  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 14  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 15  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 16  
 17  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 18  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 19  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 20  
 21  Ian Roland       )              Ontario Provincial 
 22  Karen Jones      )   (np)       Police Association &
 23  Debra Newell     )              K. Deane
 24  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
 25  Annie Leeks      )   (np)

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  Clem Nabigon     )   (np)
  7  Adriel Weaver     )   (np)       Student-at-Law
  8  
  9  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
 10  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 11  
 12  William Horton   )              Chiefs of Ontario
 13  Matthew Horner   )
 14  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 15  
 16  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 17  Craig Mills      )
 18  
 19  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 20  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 21  Melissa Panjer   )
 22  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 23  
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 MAYNARD DONALD GEORGE, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 7 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 39 8 Cross-Examination by Andrea Tuck-Jackson 88 9 Cross-Examination by Ian Roland 92 10 Re-Cross-Examination by Mr. Murray Klippenstein 120 11 12 WALTER PETER HOLMES HARDING, Sworn 13 Examination-in-Chief by Mr. Donald Worme 127 14 15 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 228 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-335 Anthony O'Brien George DOB March 17, 4 1957, Criminal convictions, conditional 5 and absolute discharges and related 6 Information 1974-11-08/1994-11-07 19 7 P-336 July 17th, 1996 letter of apology to 8 Maynard (Sam) D. George from Mr. Thomas 9 O'Grady, Commissioner OPP 30 10 P-337 December 16, '95 Ottawa Citizen article 11 "Something To Die For" document 2001748 95 12 P-338 Official medical certificate of "Dudley" 13 George's death 123 14 P-339 St. John Ambulance London-Middlesex Corps 15 Emergency Services Support Team Manual of 16 Services. 158 17 P-340 CD-Rom of 23 photographs of St. John 18 Ambulance vehicles. 162 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 10:30 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, everybody. 8 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. Good morning, Mr. George. 10 11 MAYNARD DONALD GEORGE, Resumed 12 13 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 14 15 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 16 Q: When we left off on April the 7th, you 17 had told us about the smudging ceremony that you 18 performed with your Dudley George at the Strathroy 19 Hospital. 20 After you completed the ceremony, what did 21 you do next Mr. George? 22 A: My wife and my son we -- we got in 23 our van and we started to head back for home. I did -- I 24 think met with one officer and asked if we could be 25 notified as to when the body would be released.

1 Q: And when did you learn that your 2 brother Pierre and sister Carolyn had been arrested by 3 the OPP? 4 A: Again, I -- I don't know -- I can't 5 remember at what time I asked where they had went -- 6 where my brother and sister, the one that drove him in 7 had went or where they were at that time. And that was 8 then I was informed that they were taken to the police 9 station. 10 Q: And did you at some point that 11 evening visit your brother and sister at the police 12 station? 13 A: Yes. After I left the hospital I 14 went over to the Strathroy Police Department there, the 15 OPP Detachment and asked -- I had to talk into some kind 16 of little night box there to -- to ask permission to go 17 in and see them. 18 I wasn't granted permission right away. I 19 had to -- to keep requesting that to -- in order just to 20 get in and see them. 21 Q: And so when you finished the smudging 22 ceremony, your wife and son, Donald, got in the van and 23 with the intention of going back to Kettle Point as well 24 as stopping at the OPP Detachment? 25 A: That's right.

1 Q: And had anyone -- do you recall what 2 if anything anyone at the hospital had said about why 3 Pierre and Carolyn had been arrested? 4 A: I hadn't known of any charges that 5 they were going to lay. I guess my concern was why -- 6 why were they taken to jail at that time. 7 Q: And did anyone explain to you before 8 you got to the OPP Detachment why they had been arrested? 9 A: Not that I can recall whether they 10 said there was any charges laid or not. 11 Q: So, you arrived at the OPP Detachment 12 in Strathroy and in order to gain entry you used a night 13 intercom system, is that -- or an intercom system? 14 A: That's correct. 15 Q: And when you -- eventually you were - 16 - you were granted admittance into the Detachment? 17 A: Yes, I was. 18 Q: And how long did that take or can you 19 recall how long? 20 A: No, I can't recall how long that 21 took. But, I know I eventually got in and was allowed to 22 go in and -- and see my brother and sister. 23 Q: And prior to going in to see your 24 brother and sister, had you been advised as to -- by 25 anyone at the -- any of the police officers at the

1 Detachment why they had been arrested? 2 A: No. 3 Q: And who did you see first; Pierre or 4 Carolyn? 5 A: I went in -- I went in and I talked 6 to Pierre first. They allowed me to go into his cell. 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: And his first concern was to -- to 9 find out how Dudley was. So. it was at that time that I 10 informed him that Dudley had passed away. 11 Q: And what else happened? How long did 12 this meeting with Pierre take? 13 A: I got -- I got no idea. I didn't 14 take notes of any time or anything. 15 Q: Do you recall what else was said by 16 either you or your brother Pierre? 17 A: Not really other than I -- I just 18 knew I had to tell him. 19 Q: And do you recall -- did Pierre say 20 anything to you that you can recall as to why he had been 21 arrested? 22 A: Not that I can recall. 23 Q: And after you saw Pierre, you were 24 then allowed to see Carolyn? 25 A: Yes, I was.

11
  1                 Q:   And that was in her cell too?
  2                 A:   Yes.
  3                 Q:   And can -- can you tell us what you
  4  recall about your discussion with your sister Carolyn?
  5                 A:   It was just basically -- just the big
  6  concern was that how Dudley was doing.  And again, I had
  7  to inform her that -- that he in fact passed away.  And
  8  from there I really can't remember what the rest of our
  9  conversation was about --
 10                 Q:   Okay.
 11                 A:   -- or how long it took.
 12                 Q:   Okay.  And then after visiting your
 13  brother Pierre and your sister Carolyn at the Detachment,
 14  what did you do next, Mr. George?
 15                 A:   Well, I went outside and -- and I'm
 16  pretty sure my sister Pam was -- was also outside, but I
 17  went out and I talked to them and let them know that
 18  Pierre and Sully (phonetic) were -- were okay, but they
 19  weren't going to release them.
 20                 Q:   Pardon me?
 21                 A:   They weren't going to let them out of
 22  jail and to me that didn't seem right, because our
 23  brother had just been -- been killed and -- and I felt
 24  really bad about having to leave them in -- in the jail
 25  cells while we went back to home.

1 Q: And how did you know they weren't 2 going to be released? Did -- 3 A: Because the officer had told me and I 4 don't remember his name, neither. 5 Q: Okay. And then you proceeded to 6 return to Kettle Point; is that correct? 7 A: That's correct. 8 Q: And on your way to Kettle Point, did 9 you have any interaction with police officers? 10 A: Yes, I did. As we were driving home, 11 I -- as I was getting closer to the town of Forest, 12 here, out on Rawlings Road and Townshead Line, there was 13 a roadblock there. 14 Q: And you were travelling towards 15 Forest on Townshead Line? 16 A: Yes, I was. 17 Q: And can you describe what happened? 18 A: Well, as we pulled up to the 19 roadblock, there was an officer laying on the -- on the 20 hood of a police car that had a gun pointed at us and 21 when I stopped the vehicle, another one came up on the 22 driver's side from -- I don't know where he came from, 23 but he told me to turn the engine off and to put my hands 24 out the window, then get out of the vehicle. 25 I was on crutches at that time and I

1 remember hollering out that I'm on crutches and they're 2 coming out first. I didn't really know what would have 3 happened if I wouldn't have said anything. 4 But, I just recently talked to my wife 5 about it, because we really didn't discuss that evening 6 until quite recently and I -- I asked her what she 7 remembered of it and she says that there was another 8 officer on the other side of the van. 9 Q: On the -- on the passenger side as 10 well? 11 A: Yes, and I asked her if they had guns 12 pointed at her and she wouldn't answer me, but my son 13 said, yes, they did. 14 Q: And the officer that you observed on 15 the driver's side of the van had a -- had a rifle or a -- 16 what kind of weapon did he have? 17 A: It was a -- it was a long gun, I -- I 18 don't know what kind it was. I wasn't going to ask him 19 any questions. 20 Q: And do you recall the officer who was 21 on the hood of the car; what -- did he have a long gun? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And was the car -- the car that you 24 observed across -- across Townshead Line to impede the 25 progress, it was parked across the -- across the highway?

1 A: Yes, it was. It was parked there so 2 that they could, I guess, start to direct traffic down 3 Rawlings Road. 4 Q: And when you arrived, if the car was 5 parked perpendicular to the highway, so it was across the 6 highway, its headlights would not have been shining on 7 you? 8 A: No. 9 Q: And were there any lights on inside 10 the vehicle, your vehicle? 11 A: Inside of my vehicle? 12 Q: Yeah. 13 A: No. 14 Q: So, that as far as you're aware, the 15 police officers at the roadblock or the police officer at 16 the roadblock did not know who was in the vehicle? 17 A: No. 18 Q: And the -- so the police officer 19 asked you to put your hands out the window, which you 20 did? 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 Q: And then what happened? 23 A: Then I reached out and pushed the 24 button and opened the door to -- and then I got out of 25 the vehicle.

1 Q: And you'd already told him that you 2 were going to come out with your... 3 A: My crutches were coming our first. 4 Q: And they were a metallic colour as I 5 understand it? 6 A: Yes, aluminum crutches, aluminum. 7 Q: And, so you got out of the car -- out 8 of your van; then what happened? 9 A: Then I talked to the officers for a 10 little while and then we proceeded to -- to come to 11 Kettle Point. Again, I didn't know that they'd opened 12 the van and -- and talked to my son, just asked him who 13 else was in the van. 14 Q: And, so they asked you to -- the 15 police officers asked you to identify yourself and where 16 you were going? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And they asked your son and your wife 19 to identify themselves as well? 20 A: Yes, I guess that's what they asked 21 them. 22 Q: And your wife and son were not asked 23 to leave the vehicle? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And the police officers asked you to

1 proceed to Kettle Point by taking Rawlings Road; is that 2 correct? 3 A: That's correct. 4 Q: And Rawlings Road is a road that runs 5 between Townshead Line and Highway 21, east of the 6 intersection of -- where the light is at Townshead Line 7 and King Street? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And it�s on the east side of town and 10 it takes you out back onto Highway 21, so that you can 11 proceed east --northeast, I guess, towards Kettle Point? 12 A: That�s correct. 13 Q: And do you recall anything that the - 14 - the officers said to you, with respect to why there was 15 road block or why you were being asked to go along 16 Rawlings Road? 17 A: No, I don�t. 18 Q: And -- so they simply asked you -- 19 they asked you to identify yourself and then directed you 20 to go along Rawlings Road to Highway 21 to Kettle Point? 21 A: Yes. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 Q: And can you describe for us the

1 demeanour of the OPP officers, as you recall, the OPP 2 officer that you -- you spoke to? 3 A: They were pretty stern in the way 4 they directed their questions at us, wanting to know and 5 I�m trying to remember what the questions they were 6 asking me, but I�m not recalling them too well right now, 7 but I can remember they were very stern in the way they 8 were asking them. 9 Q: And do you -- I may have asked you 10 this, and I apologize, but do you recall -- did you 11 recognize any of the officers at the checkpoint? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Then after you left the checkpoint, 14 you proceeded on Rawlings Road to Highway 21? 15 A: Yes, I did. 16 Q: And then proceeded to Kettle Point 17 along Highway 21? 18 A: That�s correct. 19 Q: And what did you do when you got to 20 the intersection of Highway 21 and the road that leads to 21 Kettle Point? 22 A: Well, we travelled down twenty-one 23 (21) until we got to County Road 7, and as we were 24 turning to go into the community, our plaza�s there on 25 the corner --

1 Q: Yes. 2 A: And I noticed a large -- large amount 3 of people there. So, I pulled in and our -- and Chief 4 Tom Bressette came out and he --he asked me, you know, 5 how Dudley was and I told him that Dudley had passed 6 away. 7 So, he asked me if I would address the 8 crowd that were there. So, I just basically told the 9 people that -- that it was Dudley that was shot and -- 10 and that Dudley did die from a gunshot wound. 11 Q: And what -- when you arrived back at 12 Kettle Point, and at the plaza, was there a bonfire at 13 this -- at that point on Highway 21? 14 A: No, there wasn't. It wasn't until 15 after I told the people what had happened that -- that 16 this bonfire appeared. 17 Q: Okay. And what did you do next, Mr. 18 George? 19 A: I went back to my home. My sisters 20 had already started to go to my home. There were some 21 people already gathering over there so we just went over 22 to -- to my place just to, I guess, sit. 23 Q: Okay. And before we go on, Mr. 24 George, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions. You 25 were asked to consent to the disclosure of your brother's

1 criminal record; is that correct? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And you consented to that disclosure? 4 A: Yes, I did. 5 Q: And were you familiar, prior to the 6 receipt of a copy of the criminal record, as to the 7 criminal record that your brother, Dudley George, had? 8 A: I knew he had a criminal record, but 9 I didn't know what was all on it. 10 Q: Yeah. And perhaps, Commissioner, we 11 could mark as the next exhibit, Exhibit P-335, the 12 criminal record of Dudley George? 13 THE REGISTRAR: P-335, your Honour. 14 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 335. 16 17 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-335: Anthony O'Brien George DOB 18 March 17, 1957, Criminal 19 convictions, conditional 20 and absolute discharges and 21 related Information 1974-11- 22 08/1994-11-07 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And there's a copy on the desk in

1 front of you, Mr. George. The charge -- there's a charge 2 of -- in November of 1974 of bigamy, were you aware of 3 that? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And at that time your brother would 6 have been seventeen (17); 1974, seventeen (17) or 7 eighteen (18)? 8 A: Around there, yes. 9 Q: And then he was convicted of arson in 10 December of 1974 and that's the charge that you were 11 aware of? 12 A: Yes. It's a charge -- probably it's 13 the most -- one of the ones that stick in my mind the 14 most because of what had happened there. 15 Q: And that was as I understand it, he 16 was arrested along with some other young people and he 17 was the only one who was charged? 18 A: That's correct. 19 Q: And then the -- there are a number of 20 charges in the '70's down to '78, then there's a charge 21 in 1982, June 1982, a conviction of assault. Were you 22 aware of that? 23 A: No, I wasn't. 24 Q: And were you aware that in 1982 your 25 brother was sentenced to prison. Do you recall that?

1 A: I can remember him going to jail but 2 I don't really know what the charges were that led to 3 that. 4 Q: And then in 1990 -- the next 5 conviction is in 1990 some eight (8) years later and 6 that's driving while impaired? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And failure to provide a breath 9 sample? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And then the next -- and the last 12 charge was in November -- a conviction was in November of 13 1994, theft over one thousand (1000) dollars and failure 14 to attend Court. Were you aware of those convictions? 15 A: I wasn't aware of that last one. 16 Q: Okay. Now, after the -- you -- after 17 the evening of September 6th and the morning of September 18 7th, I understand you and your family prepared for the 19 funeral of your brother Dudley George? 20 A: Yes. We -- we had to go out to pick 21 a funeral director and start to make them arrangements. 22 Q: And were there some issues as you 23 recall with respect to the release of your brother's body 24 for burial? 25 A: Yes. After we chose a funeral

1 director and he was going out to pick -- to get the body, 2 Dudley's body, he phoned me and I can't remember the day 3 about five o'clock and he said he was going to come back 4 home because they weren't going to release the body that 5 day. 6 Q: And that was Mr. Gilpin? 7 A: Yes, it was. 8 Q: And he was the funeral director from 9 the funeral home here in Forest? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And what then happened? 12 A: I told him just to hang on and I was 13 going to go over and I was -- to see the Chief. And I 14 went over to the school, Hillside School, and there was a 15 large gathering of -- of Chiefs, I know Ovide Mercredi 16 was there and Chief Tom and there were some -- some of 17 the higher ranking OPP officers in there and there was 18 just several people I guess meeting there. 19 And I asked the Chiefs for their help to - 20 - for me to get this body released so we could bring it 21 home and start to prepare it for burial. 22 Q: And what then happened? 23 A: I got a call about an hour and a half 24 later and they said in fact that the body was going to be 25 released and Mr. Gilpin could then bring it back to start

1 to prepare it. 2 Q: Okay. And did you then -- after your 3 brother's body had been returned to the funeral home -- 4 home in Forest did you learn anything from the funeral 5 director about your brother's body? 6 A: Yes. When he first brung the body 7 down, he -- usually you have this small period of time 8 for the family to -- to view the body before people 9 started to come in and he talked to us about it and he 10 said -- he says, I think your brother was shot twice. 11 And I said, No, they only told me once. 12 He says, No. He says, I think there was 13 something -- something unusual here because there was a - 14 - a piece gone out of his leg and he asked us to feel 15 that spot and he says there was a chunk cut out of there 16 and there was packed with cotton batting and there was 17 some bandage over it, but he says he's never seen that 18 before and this is why he thought maybe he had been shot 19 twice. 20 Q: So, he had -- had a bullet -- he 21 thought a bullet had hit your brother in his leg? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And you, as I understand it, tried to 24 obtain an autopsy -- a copy of the autopsy report and 25 were unable to attend one -- obtain one until the Kenneth

1 Deane trial; was that correct? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: And the, as I understand it, at the 4 time -- at the Kenneth Deane trial when the autopsy 5 report was going to introduced, you and -- through your 6 Counsel, asked for time to review it before it was made 7 public? 8 A: Yes, we wanted to -- to check that 9 one (1) area on the autopsy report to see if it had 10 mentioned anything. We went through a period of time 11 there trying to get this report because usually we can 12 get them within a month after the -- a person passes 13 away, but as we tried to get that, we had a verbal report 14 from a Dr. Perkins and -- but we never did get the 15 written report because they said we were caught in some - 16 - some grey area of the law at that time and if we -- we 17 wanted it, then we would have to go to the Coroner's and 18 either take them to court or whatever, so, we chose at 19 that time not -- not to do that. 20 Q: And the -- you had -- Dr. Perkins had 21 given you a verbal report as his findings? 22 A: Yes, but that spot was never 23 mentioned at that time and -- and it wasn't until we seen 24 that report that -- that it talked about that under 25 unusual findings on the body.

1 Q: Now, the -- before we go on, 2 Commissioner, I just realized that -- that Mr. Downard's 3 not here and normally someone from his office is -- 4 MR. PETER DOWNARD: I'm here. 5 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Oh, sorry. Thank you. 6 I just realized that they weren't there and I thought I 7 might -- 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I didn't 9 realize it either. 10 11 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 12 Q: Okay. Before we -- at some point you 13 received a visit after your brother's death from Chief 14 Superintendent Coles and Mr. Jim Potts? 15 A: Yes, we did. 16 Q: And, was that before the funeral of 17 your brother? 18 A: Yes, it was. 19 Q: And can you tell us what was the -- 20 was your -- what did Chief Coles -- Chief Superintendent 21 Coles and Mr. Potts say when they came to your house? 22 A: They just come over to -- to see the 23 family and -- and -- and I guess our -- our hopes of -- 24 when -- when they asked if they could come and meet with 25 us is -- is that at that time maybe we were going to get

1 some answers as to -- as to what had happened that night, 2 but when -- there was nothing said, really, about that. 3 And -- and it was -- it was, I guess, a -- 4 just a meeting to come and see, you know, how we were 5 doing and so forth and -- and then they left, but we 6 never did get no answers that day as to what had 7 happened. 8 Q: And had you asked that day, the Chief 9 -- do you recall asking Chief Superintendent Coles as to 10 what happened. 11 A: I'm pretty sure I asked him. 12 Q: And Chief Superintendent Coles was 13 there to express condolences about the death of your 14 brother and -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And Mr. Jim Potts was a member of the 17 First Nations policing branch of the OPP; is that 18 correct? Did you know Mr. Potts at that time? 19 A: I didn't know Mr. Potts at that time, 20 but that's what he'd -- he'd mentioned. 21 Q: Pardon me? 22 A: That's what he'd said when he came. 23 Q: That's what he said when he came? 24 A: Yeah. 25 Q: You hadn't met him before?

1 A: No. 2 Q: And prior to the death of your 3 brother, can you tell us a little bit about your 4 relationship with the Ontario Provincial Police? 5 A: Well, my relationship with the 6 Ontario Provincial Police, I guess, probably goes back a 7 ways. As you know, I'm a youth worker for my community 8 and even when I was doing my job as Employment Councillor 9 for the -- for the youth in the community, I would -- I 10 would work along with the police, trying to get either 11 some of our youth into law enforcement or customs or 12 security type jobs. 13 Even as I go through the -- the Children 14 and Family Services now, I do a lot of work with young 15 offenders and I'm also into the Family Courts in which, 16 sometimes, I have to work along with the police, not only 17 Anishnaabeg police, but the OPP, Sarnia police or London 18 police. 19 So, I have to -- to work along with the 20 police and I've had a pretty good relationship with them. 21 I used to play hockey with some of them during the years 22 as we -- as we grew -- I guess, were going through our, I 23 guess, our age where we could still play. 24 But, I had a -- probably a pretty good 25 relationship with them, as well as a lot of my family

1 members are OPP members. 2 Q: And since the shooting, was there -- 3 has been there -- has there been a change in your 4 relationship with the OPP? 5 A: There's not been too much of a -- of 6 a change. I still have to maintain my work in the Courts 7 in Sarnia and all over, so I have to be on a -- on a 8 working relationship with the police. 9 Q: And the -- were you -- do you know if 10 your brother, Dudley George, was a hunter? 11 A: Not to my knowledge. 12 Q: And we've heard that -- some evidence 13 that he did go hunting from time to time when he was on 14 the Army camp, but you had never seen him hunt? 15 A: I've never seen him hunt, but as I 16 listen to and learned about it as we come through these 17 proceedings, I -- I certainly have an understanding, too, 18 that if they would go out and hunt it was for survival, 19 as well, and also learning to do that, because maybe food 20 wasn't that great at that time and they just went and did 21 that to get the meat. 22 Q: But you, personally, had never seen 23 him with a -- hunt, or had you ever seen him with a 24 firearm? 25 A: No.

1 Q: And the -- in the book in front of 2 you, there's a -- on the left, to your left, yes, at the 3 beginning, there's -- you'll find a letter dated July 4 17th, 1970 -- '96. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 Q: It should be -- I think the third -- 9 oh, it's -- I think, Mr. George, it'll be in the, 10 hopefully... 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 A: I got too many documents here. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: This is a letter from Mr. Thomas 19 O'Grady, who at the time was the Commissioner of the 20 Ontario Provincial Police, and it's a letter of apology 21 to you and your family for the inappropriate memorabilia 22 created during the incident at Ipperwash and it reads: 23 �On behalf of the Ontario Provincial 24 Police and its members, I wish to 25 apologize to you and your family for

1 the inappropriate memorabilia created 2 during the incident at Ipperwash. 3 While I am assured that it was never 4 intended to offend anyone, it ought 5 never to have been created and it is 6 not representative of the 7 professionalism of the Ontario 8 Provincial Police. Please accept my 9 apology and be assured that appropriate 10 action is being taken.� 11 And did you receive a copy of that letter, 12 Mr. George? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And perhaps, Commissioner, we could 15 have that marked the next exhibit. It would be P-336. 16 THE REGISTRAR: P-336, your Honour. 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 18 19 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-336: July 17th, 1996 letter of 20 apology to Maynard (Sam) D. 21 George from Mr. Thomas 22 O'Grady, Commissioner OPP 23 24 CONTINUED BY MR. DERRY MILLAR: 25 Q: And did you, personally, see any of

1 the memorabilia that's being referred to in that letter? 2 A: I never seen any of the cups or any 3 t-shirts that was made. I did see a copy of the little 4 cresting that was being put on the -- on the cups though. 5 Q: And when did you see that, Mr. 6 George? 7 A: I would -- I don't know the exact 8 date. I received a copy of it from I think one of my 9 sisters who had got it from the little store that was 10 making them or something. 11 Q: Which -- and the -- your brother was 12 buried on September 11th of 1995? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And he was buried at Stoney Point? 15 A: Yes, he was. 16 Q: At the cemetery at Stoney Point? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And can you tell us about his burial? 19 I take it -- I understand there were many people who 20 attended? 21 A: I really can't recall a whole lot 22 about the funeral. I know that we -- we buried him on 23 that day and he is buried back in the cemetery in Stoney 24 Point. 25 Q: And I understand that after your

1 brother was shot, the Ontario Provincial Police took the 2 position that your brother had been armed and shot at the 3 police; is that correct? 4 A: That's correct. 5 Q: And the Government of Ontario took 6 the position that the Park occupation was illegal and 7 your brother Dudley George had been an illegal occupier 8 at the time of his death; is that correct? 9 A: That was their position. 10 Q: And what was the affect of those 11 positions and you and on the members of your family? 12 A: Well, I guess first of all, knowing 13 Dudley and knowing that he never used firearms or 14 anything that we could not believe that he would -- he 15 would use firearms particularly at a time such as that. 16 We knew from his statements before that, 17 that he thought the police wouldn't shoot unarmed 18 people. So, that told me he was -- he wasn't armed at 19 that time and that he wasn't going to have any arms. 20 So, for the statements that come out that 21 the police were returning fire, we -- we couldn't believe 22 that. And although it was the official police statement 23 at the time, or I should say it is still on record as -- 24 as that even though through the courts it's been proven 25 that Dudley was unarmed, they have never changed that

1 neither. 2 So -- but we couldn't believe that -- that 3 what they were saying that he was armed. 4 Q: And can you tell the Commissioner the 5 impact that the death of your brother at outside 6 Ipperwash Provincial Park has had on you and your family 7 and your community? 8 A: Well, the impact it's had on -- I 9 guess I'll start when I look back on it right from the 10 beginning, it had a very big impact on my family. I 11 guess just -- just the thought of losing -- or losing 12 someone, your brother or your sister, that always puts a 13 big impact into one's life. 14 It always, I guess, breaks your heart when 15 that happens. So, we had to look at that and we had to 16 think and listen to all the reports that were going on. 17 We had to start to make decisions whether or not we were 18 just going to -- to let things go or we're going to try 19 to find out what had happened. Maybe try and get the 20 record set straight on it. 21 So, it started to have a very big impact 22 on -- on my brothers and sisters just for what was 23 saying. As far as our community, we could see the impact 24 with the children and some of the families around there. 25 There was a lot of fear as to the unknown;

1 not knowing what was going to happen next; not knowing 2 whether they were going to come in to the other 3 communities and start to -- to look for people or we'd 4 just -- I know at one time we moved our mother-in-law out 5 into another community because we just were uncertain of 6 what would happen at that time. 7 It was just about like --I don't know, 8 when you went out it was almost like a war zone you see 9 on TV. If you go and watch where these cement barricades 10 and stuff were all up, everyone in the town -- these were 11 -- this is what the atmosphere was like and that's what 12 it seemed like to us and so... 13 Q: And over the -- after the immediate 14 time passed and the barricades -- the barricade that 15 you're referring to is the barricade that had been 16 erected in the, what we've referred to as the 'sandy 17 parking lot', the access road from the intersection of 18 Army Camp Road to -- and -- and East Parkway Drive north 19 to Lake Huron? 20 A: I'm not referring to that blockade, 21 I'm referring to the ones that were outside. I'm 22 referring to the ones that were over here on Townshead 23 Line where you -- 24 Q: Oh, the -- the -- 25 A: -- come into town every day and you

1 were reminded about what had happened. 2 Q: And, how long were the barricades and 3 the -- what you mean -- the checkpoints that were 4 established by the OPP; is that what you're -- you're 5 referring to, those? 6 A: Those were also outside of the -- the 7 boundaries of our community as well and you were stopped 8 whenever you went into -- come out of the community or 9 went into the community. 10 Q: And, how long did those checkpoints 11 or barricades -- how long were they up, Mr. George? 12 A: I would think for a couple of weeks. 13 I'm not exactly sure on that. 14 Q: And, can you tell us the longer term 15 impact on you and your family of the events of September 16 6th, 1995? 17 A: Well, it -- it -- the longer term 18 effects were that -- that it became very hard on us as we 19 started to proceed through this. From the beginning 20 trying to -- to get legal counsel was even -- even very 21 hard. 22 We had counted on Ron who was, at that 23 time, practising law and he had introduced us to a -- a 24 professor by the name, I think it was Bruce Feldthusen 25 from a University and he come down and he talked to us

1 about this case before we even started it. 2 And -- and I can remember him asking us 3 one (1) question before we even got going: Are you -- 4 are you guys doing this for money or are you doing it to 5 find the truth? And we all said, We're doing it to find 6 the truth. 7 So, we started to proceed along in that 8 area, but -- but we have a very, very hard time finding a 9 lawyer. We couldn't find one in this area. And it was 10 my brother-in-law Gary George who -- who said he knew a 11 lawyer in -- in Toronto by the name of Delia Opekokew. 12 And we set up an appointment with Delia 13 and we went down. We met with her and we told her our 14 story. Pam, Pierre, and myself went down. We talked to 15 Delia, we told her our story and she said she thought she 16 could help us. 17 Q: And, the -- I don't want to get into 18 the lawsuit or what happened with the lawsuit, Mr. 19 George, but you did, as we know, commence a lawsuit and 20 it was ultimately settled. 21 And, as well, you had asked for a Public 22 Inquiry and ultimately this Public Inquiry was -- was 23 called, but can you tell us, if anything else, about the 24 effect on you, personally, of the events or on your 25 community of the events?

1 A: Well, it's -- it's taken, I guess, a 2 lot of -- a lot of time, a span out of my life; one that 3 I could probably use to -- to spend with my grandsons or 4 -- or more so with my wife, my children, because it -- 5 it's a lot of work and it's a lot of hard work to -- to 6 do this and when I started I did not think it was going 7 to be this much. 8 We had some very simple questions in the 9 beginning; somebody tell us what happened. All we want 10 to know is the truth. If somebody would have sat up and 11 said this is what had happened; that's all we were 12 asking. 13 We didn't want it to carry on for years 14 and years and years and -- and finally get to the point 15 where we're at now, but go through that -- then ten (10) 16 year span, that -- that's rough on a person. 17 Q: Thank you. And before I close, is 18 there anything else you wish to add, Mr. George? 19 A: Not at this time. 20 Q: And are there any recommendations 21 that you wish to have the Commissioner consider? 22 A: Could I withhold on my 23 recommendations for a while and maybe address them to the 24 Commissioner at a later date? 25 Q: And, why is that? Do you want to

1 hear the other evidence? 2 A: I think it would -- I think I would 3 rather sit and listen to -- to all the evidence and make 4 recommendations after that time rather than to just sit 5 and listen to half of it. 6 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Okay. Perhaps, 7 Commissioner, that concludes our examination. And I 8 understand that Mr. Klippenstein will be asking as Mr. 9 Rosenthal had done before, to lead and Mr. Orkin did with 10 Mr. Mercredi to lead some evidence. 11 And then we will be doing a cross- 12 examination and perhaps it would be appropriate, I 13 understand that Mr. Klippenstein thinks he'll be about an 14 hour, but we could canvas the -- who we -- who intend to 15 cross-examine Mr. George and get an estimate as to their 16 time? 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Should we 18 do that after Mr. Klippenstein? 19 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Perhaps we'll do that 20 after Mr. Klippenstein. 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think so. 22 MR. DERRY MILLAR: Thank you. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Do you want 24 to take your place at the table, Mr. Downard? Why don't 25 we just hold ourselves in place here while you do. Okay.

1 MR. DERRY MILLAR: And, Mr. George, I 2 wish to thank you very much for coming today and giving 3 your evidence and -- today and the last day. 4 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, Mr. 6 Klippenstein? 7 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Thank you, 8 Commissioner. 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 13 Q: Well, Sam, finally after ten (10) 14 years here we are. 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Are you okay with that? 17 A: I'm quite okay. I have one request 18 for the Commissioner before I get going with this. It's 19 kind of a nice day outside, can we move outside for the 20 rest of the day? 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It would be 22 a good idea but I think it will be difficult to keep our 23 attention focussed. 24 25 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN:

1 Q: Sam, just out of curiosity, you've 2 been through some seven (7) years of litigation in the 3 Courts and now you've been part way through an inquiry; 4 which do you like better? 5 A: I think the Inquiry. I think if we 6 had went through the Inquiry first, I think it would have 7 been a lot better. 8 Q: I'd -- I'd like to begin by picking 9 up on a few things that My Friend, Mr. Millar, raised in 10 his examination-in-chief. And I would like to go back to 11 a time before Dudley was shot and ask you a bit about 12 some of your activities before then and see whether they 13 are connected to what happened after Dudley was shot. 14 And Mr. Millar put on the projection, a 15 number of photographs of you and your family and some 16 traditional dancing costumes; do you recall that? 17 A: Yes, I do. 18 Q: And perhaps Mr. Millar can locate 19 those, and I -- I haven't given him a warning to do so, 20 but there were some photographs of you in some 21 traditional dancing costumes; do you recall that? 22 A: Yes, I do. 23 Q: Can you describe a little bit about 24 that dancing? You were a fairly -- a fair bit of a 25 younger man in some of those photographs.

1 A: I was only -- there are only two (2) 2 years old. 3 Q: How old? How old? 4 A: I said the photographs are only two 5 (2) years old. 6 Q: Okay. We have one on the screen now. 7 Thank you, Mr. Millar. And can you tell us a bit more 8 about those costumes and -- and what you're doing there? 9 A: Well we refer -- we refer to them as 10 regalia. 11 Q: As what? 12 A: Regalia, not as costumes. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: But, I'm dressed in what they refer 15 to as a fancy dancer. It's more of a modern style type 16 dancing. It has a lot of movement and so forth with it. 17 But, my son who's standing in the middle of my daughters 18 there, he -- he was what we refer to as a traditional 19 dancer, as well as my daughters, they were both 20 traditional dancers as we went through the pow-wow 21 circuit. 22 Q: And Mr. Millar has kindly reminded me 23 that's Exhibit 333 for the record. Now, you mentioned 24 the pow-wow circuit; what's -- what's that? 25 A: Pow-wow circuit, we go from

1 community, supporting their pow-wows as they have them 2 each week. And usually, the communities, they all have 3 their own pow-wows on different weekends. 4 You very seldom see them running -- 5 butting head to head, so each one goes so that everybody 6 can go and support each other as they -- in their 7 community events that they have. 8 Q: So, what kind of communities would 9 you go visit? How far? Which ones? 10 A: I've travelled as far as -- out to 11 Marquette, Michigan. I've been up to Eagle Lake, which 12 is up near the Dryden area in Ontario. I've been down 13 into Ann Arbour Michigan, I've been out to Ottawa and all 14 the communities within Ontario whenever they have their 15 events. 16 Q: And what time period are we talking 17 about, when you made some of these trips? 18 A: Well it would be before 1995. It 19 would be, probably, I think Tammy was about two (2) years 20 old when we started -- or four (4) -- two (2) or four (4) 21 years old when we started. I'm not going to say how old 22 she is now. She's sitting out there looking at me. 23 But, we were involved in it for a good 24 twenty-five (25) years. 25 Q: And what got you started in -- in

1 pow-wow dancing? 2 A: It's just as a group of young people 3 in our community. There was a -- what they -- they held 4 their first princess pageant they called it, down at 5 Kettle Point, and we had a dancer come in and that 6 started to get us involved in starting to think about 7 wanting to do that. 8 So, my wife and a group of us started to 9 get together and we started to put regalia together and 10 started to go out to different communities and learn the 11 dances and dance from there. 12 Q: When you say, �put the regalia 13 together�, what do you mean? 14 A: Well, there's a lot of work to -- to 15 putting them together. As you can see, I have a lot of 16 beadwork on my -- on my stuff and that takes a long time 17 to -- to put that all together. There's a lot of sewing 18 to put dresses together and so forth. 19 Q: So, who -- who made some of those 20 regalia that we see in the photograph? 21 A: My sister-in-laws and my wife and -- 22 and just different people. Some friends that help -- 23 whoever could do beadwork, they asked if they could help 24 me put that together. 25 Q: Did Veronica, your wife, do some of

1 those costumes, the regalia? 2 A: Yes, she did. She did some of the 3 beading, too, as well. 4 Q: And what about the regalia you're 5 wearing; is that custom made for you? 6 A: Pretty well, yeah. My colours, I 7 picked my own colours and the bustles there, the things 8 on my back, you order them to the colours that you want 9 and you match your beadworks and stuff to that. 10 Q: Do you still have that regalia -- 11 you're -- your outfit? 12 A: Yes, I do. I'm not going to do a 13 demonstration though. 14 Q: Can you describe very quickly what 15 you would actually do when you danced? 16 A: Just dancing. There's different 17 types of dancing; there's dancing with couples, there's 18 ones they -- social dancing, there's competition dancing, 19 there's -- they may do different dancing for -- for -- 20 for eagles or whatever. 21 There's just all kinds of them. I 22 couldn't even begin to -- to name them all. There's 23 intertribal dancing in which everybody comes out, even 24 your -- your spectators come out and get involved in the 25 dancing as they sing the songs.

1 Q: Did your -- did your family seen to 2 enjoy that activity? 3 A: I -- yeah, they enjoyed it. We 4 travelled every weekend. We would go and we'd meet up 5 with the -- the people that -- you know, just like a 6 great big huge family. You know, you'd just move around, 7 you'd go home, you'd do your work in the week and the 8 weekends you'd take off and -- and go to the pow-wow. 9 Q: And you'd what, get in a car and 10 travel together as a family or -- 11 A: Yeah. Cars, vans whatever. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. And did Veronica dance as 13 well? 14 A: No, she -- she was the one that 15 always stayed back and made sure that everybody was 16 prepared to go out. We had to make sure that once you 17 were out there, that you didn't drop nothing, so she was 18 back to make sure that the girls' hairs were braided and 19 everything was put on right and -- and then she would 20 send them out. 21 Q: Now, did the -- did the dances have 22 any particular meaning for you and your family or any 23 significance other than being enjoyable, I presume? 24 A: Later on, I -- I started to -- to 25 take notice in -- in some of the dances that were taking

1 -- they were having in regards to maybe someone having 2 someone passed on stuff and I started to watch what they 3 were doing there and became a little more interested in - 4 - in the traditional sides of it and the ceremonial 5 sides. 6 Q: And, when you say, "ceremonial side," 7 what do you mean? 8 A: Well, because they -- a lot of times 9 they have to -- to before you go in and -- and you 10 welcome your guests into the community, you always make 11 sure everything is all done right. They'll do a ceremony 12 for -- for people's travel there and people's travel home 13 and to watch over them while they're dancing there and 14 just -- just different ceremonies like that. 15 Q: And, do you still dance? 16 A: I haven't. Periodically I will, but 17 not too often. 18 Q: When did you last dance? 19 A: Probably about a year ago. I think 20 last July I went to Mount Pleasant, Michigan, and went 21 and attended their pow-wow. 22 Q: And you danced? 23 A: Yes, I did. 24 Q: I didn't know that. 25 A: You might have asked me if I would

1 and I would have said, no. I do it mostly for social 2 now. I'm not into competition dancing no more. 3 Q: You mentioned some ceremonies. Are 4 there any other ceremonies of a traditional nature that 5 are connected to -- to the dancing activities or that you 6 have done with your family? 7 A: There's lots of ceremonies that are - 8 - would be connected, particularly if you're going to go 9 through and do what -- they go from a competition pow-wow 10 to a traditional style pow-wow, there's -- there's more 11 ceremonies in the traditional pow-wow. 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: It's a totally different layout in 14 how you enter the arena and how you do things. There, 15 they have ceremonies to prepare the grounds before you 16 go, they have feasts that do that to make sure the 17 grounds are safe for everyone as they come in. And they 18 talk to the spirits to -- to watch -- again, watch over 19 the people that are going to travel there. 20 Q: Have you been participating in 21 ceremonies such as that over the -- the period of the 22 last ten (10) years after Dudley's death as well? 23 A: Yes, I have. 24 Q: What sorts of ceremonies? 25 A: I've been involved in a lot of

1 different ceremonies, particularly since the time of 2 Dudley's death. I -- I started to work with the Elders 3 beforehand, because when I was going through my schooling 4 and that, I was also taking training on -- on traditional 5 counselling as well. 6 And so the Elders are -- they knew -- knew 7 me and they knew what -- what had happened, so they 8 started to prepare me for this -- this journey, this path 9 that I was going to go down they worked a lot with me. 10 Q: In what way? What do you mean? 11 A: They -- first of all, they -- they 12 had to talk to me about -- and what I can remember, one 13 (1) of the first things they talked to me about was fear, 14 because I was going to go into a path that they referred 15 to as the "unknown" and when you go into them, there's a 16 lot of fear there. 17 So, they talked to me about -- about fear 18 and what it could do to me if I didn't get a handle on it 19 right off the -- right from the beginning, because they 20 said if you let it -- the fear get a hold of you, it's 21 going to take you down a lot of paths where you don't 22 want to go and you might eventually not make it to where 23 you want to eventually end up. 24 Q: Now, what -- what do mean fear? Fear 25 about what? Fear in relation to what?

1 A: Fear about anything. I could have 2 feared the police, I could have feared the people. It 3 would have been just paranoia that got a hold of me and 4 that could have dragged me down. It wouldn't have given 5 me the -- I would have used all my strength and energy to 6 fight that off instead of putting it and channelling it 7 into something positive and moving forward. 8 Q: And, what did you channel it into? 9 A: I channelled it into finding out the 10 truth. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. And, did the Elders' advice 12 help you in -- in fighting for the truth? 13 A: Yes, it did very much. They would 14 take me and put me into sweat lodge ceremonies and they 15 would help me to deal -- they would get me to talk and by 16 talking that would help them to build that energy. They 17 would ask me to talk about any of the negative things to 18 get that negativity out of the way and -- and move 19 forward. 20 Q: What do you mean by "negativity"? 21 A: Negativity would be that I would 22 eventually start to -- to look at someone and start to do 23 a lot of blaming and a lot of hatred. They told me if I 24 was going to go down that path that I -- I would never 25 get to where I wanted to go.

1 Q: You know, Sam, you've been involved 2 in litigation for something like seven (7) or eight (8) 3 years and you brought legal action against the former 4 Premier of the Province and against a number of OPP 5 officers including an officer who was convicted of 6 killing your brother, but I must say I've never heard you 7 say a word in bitterness or express any amount of anger 8 towards any of those people. 9 Can you -- can you tell us about that? 10 A: Well in the beginning, all we asked 11 them to do was tell us the truth. Just someone tell us 12 something. I would've much rather not have went down 13 that path myself. I didn't expect to be into litigation 14 for seven (7) years. 15 I just didn't think that by asking for the 16 truth that it would become such a -- such a hard thing to 17 -- to get at. And I certainly found -- found things 18 different and difficult as we went through there. 19 Q: But, what -- what sort of 20 difficulties? Do you mean were -- you were personally 21 involved in a lot of the lawsuit stuff? 22 A: Well, we -- we did get into a lot of 23 -- a lot of difficulties trying to -- trying to get some 24 answers. You know, we -- we were into the Courts a lot 25 and -- and not being a person that was ever involved in

1 the Courts too much, I -- it was hard for me to 2 understand, you know, why -- why can't they just do this. 3 You know, why can't somebody just stand up 4 and say, Yeah, we did this and so forth. But, it's -- 5 that was like pulling teeth to try and get that out and 6 it -- it just became very difficult and frustrating at 7 times. 8 They -- just to try and get a simple 9 answer, we were sometimes eighteen (18) months in the 10 Courts so... 11 Q: Did -- did the OPP or the Provincial 12 Government ever apologize to you for the -- for the death 13 of your brother even after all the appeals and the 14 conviction had -- had run their course? 15 A: No, they haven't. 16 Q: You mentioned sweat lodges. Is there 17 any connection between them and what you did over the 18 years after the shooting of Dudley? 19 A: Just for my own personal well being 20 is why I went to -- to sweat lodges and seek the -- the 21 help of the Elders. 22 Q: Well, how is that helpful to you? 23 A: It helped -- it was helpful to me 24 because -- because I had the opportunity to -- to talk 25 what was on my mind and get out what I needed to get out

1 of me at that time. So, again -- so I could maintain 2 that -- that path where I wanted to end up -- eventually 3 end up. 4 Q: When -- when you say "talk," you mean 5 inside the sweat lodge? 6 A: Yeah. The sweat lodge -- and again, 7 I -- I've been cautioned by my Elders not to -- to say 8 about this but it was there to help me and to help me to 9 do that -- some of that healing I needed to do as I went 10 through this process. 11 Q: Do you -- do you still do sweat 12 lodges? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: How often? 15 A: I do them as -- I guess as often as I 16 need to. We just did one Saturday night. 17 Q: This Saturday night? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: Where? 20 A: I -- I have a sweat lodge at my 21 place, my home and that's where we go and I can -- I have 22 I guess been given that right to conduct them and so I 23 have them at my home whenever I need to -- to have one. 24 We just go in and -- and do the work we need to do. 25 Q: Where is it; around your house; the

1 backyard? Where is it? 2 A: It's in my backyard. It sits in my 3 backyard. I -- I took the stand that I wasn't going to 4 put it in the bush or nothing. I was just going to have 5 it close where -- because I'm responsible for that -- 6 that lodge, so I have to keep it where I can keep an eye 7 on it, as well. 8 Q: Who built it? 9 A: I did. 10 Q: With what? 11 A: Myself and, I guess, the Elders 12 helped me build the first one; they showed me how to 13 build it. But, I have a lot of people that come in to 14 help us put this together. There's a lot of people 15 sitting out in the audience there that come in -- they 16 help us to do this? 17 Q: And when was that? 18 A: We built this one two (2) years ago 19 and it's now getting time to re -- re-do one, again. 20 Q: Did you have one before that? 21 A: I've had one there for approximately 22 ten (10) years now. 23 Q: And were you doing sweats all the 24 time since Dudley's death? 25 A: Not for a while, because I didn't

1 have that right to do them for a while. 2 Q: And what's the connection between 3 doing a sweat and -- and Dudley's death? You said you -- 4 you talked out what was on your mind, how does that 5 happen in a sweat? 6 A: We can talk to the spirits and the 7 Creator. 8 Q: And what -- I guess it's -- it also 9 includes a ceremony of, or an atmosphere of -- sweat, 10 what does the word �sweat� mean? 11 A: I guess the closest way I can come to 12 that is to look at a -- a counselling group, like a bunch 13 of people and they get together in a circle to do some 14 counselling, whether it'll be for alcohol or -- or 15 something. They get in that circle and they talk about 16 what things are bothering them and other people lend 17 their support to help them and give them that incentive 18 to keep moving on for whatever they're doing. 19 So, that's, I guess, the best way I can 20 refer to that, is like a counselling group in -- in -- 21 the same as -- is a counselling group. What is said 22 there, stays there, so I can't say anymore about what -- 23 what is being said in there for individuals or even 24 myself. 25 Q: And why is it called a sweat lodge?

1 What's the sweat? 2 A: You sweat in there. It's -- it gets 3 warm in there. 4 Q: How does it get warm in there? 5 A: It gets warm in there because we use 6 rocks. We heat rocks and take them in there and we put 7 them in a pit and we use water on them to create that 8 sweat, and that's what -- what helps you. 9 It's a purification type thing. It'll 10 open your pores and -- and bring out a lot of -- of stuff 11 that are in there, in your bodies as well. 12 Q: And so you heat the rocks for your 13 own sweats at home? 14 A: Yes, I do. 15 Q: How do you do that? 16 A: With a fire. 17 Q: Behind your -- behind, in your back 18 yard? 19 A: Yes, I have a fire keeper that comes 20 in and sets the fire up in a certain way and he does all 21 that for me, and that's -- that's his job. I don't 22 interfere with how he sets the fires up. 23 He cuts his own wood and does everything - 24 - gets the -- I go out and pick the -- the rocks. I pick 25 certain rocks from -- that I want to use that night and

1 he puts them altogether and he starts the fire and when 2 they're ready, he comes in and tells me they're ready and 3 then we go out and we go into the sweat lodge and he 4 brings them in. 5 Q: Can you tell us about the rocks? Do 6 they have any significance or -- 7 A: The rocks are -- the first ones that 8 are brought in, there's five (5) of them that come in, 9 and the first one is set in the middle and that's for the 10 Creator and then you have your four (4) directions that 11 come in behind them, then after that they come in the 12 four (4) and they fill in the circle to represent that 13 circle of life, then you build them in. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. And who comes into the 15 sweat with you? 16 A: Anybody that needs to come in. The 17 people come for -- for different reasons, different 18 health, and they'll come into the sweat lodge. 19 Q: But -- 20 A: It doesn't matter whether they're -- 21 they're babies or elderly people. If it -- usually they 22 all come into the sweat. 23 Q: What kind of people have you had in 24 your sweats? 25 A: I'm not too sure what you mean by

1 what kind of people. 2 Q: I mean have you -- have you had non- 3 natives in your sweat lodge? 4 A: I have a lot of non-natives that come 5 to my sweat lodge. They -- whether they hear from a 6 friend or whatever, and they come down with them, if they 7 need some type of help in some way. I just don't take 8 people in for curiosity reasons. 9 Q: What kind of non-natives have -- have 10 come to you and had sweats with you? 11 A: I've had people that are in 12 institutions like jails. I had youth from youth 13 facilities in there. I had people from psychiatric wards 14 in there. Just anybody that needs any type of help. 15 Q: Any lawyers? 16 A: Yes, I've had lawyers in there. I've 17 had police officers in there. I've had elderly people in 18 there. I had different kinds of people. Like, I was 19 told that when people come to you for help that Creation 20 knows no colour and the people that are there have come 21 and seek you out for some reason and they're looking for 22 help. 23 Q: You -- you mentioned OPP officers. 24 Without breaching any confidences, can you tell us 25 anything about having a sweat with an OPP officer or

1 officers? Was this after the shooting of Dudley? 2 A: Pardon me? 3 Q: Was this after the shooting of 4 Dudley? 5 A: Yes. There was -- well, my cousins 6 come so and -- 7 Q: And they're officers? 8 A: Yes, they are. I usually don't talk 9 to them too much about their occupations and -- and stuff 10 because it's -- we're not there for that reason. We're 11 there for -- to -- to look for help and that's where we 12 go. 13 Q: Do you -- do you have youth in there 14 sometimes, in the sweat lodge? 15 A: Yes. I put on a couple of sweats for 16 -- for children. Not too often. They don't -- they 17 don't come too often and ask you for a lodge but now and 18 then it happens. 19 Q: And how long is a sweat; an hour or 20 five (5) hours or what? 21 A: It all depends. You can't put no 22 time limit on it. 23 Q: Give us an idea. What -- 24 A: It depends on how many people. It 25 could last up to eight (8) hours.

1 Q: What's your longest sweat? 2 A: Never really timed it. But, I don't 3 know, maybe eight (8) hours. 4 Q: And this -- does this take place in 5 the evening or the night? 6 A: Mornings, evenings. I've had some 7 people come to me at midnight saying that they needed 8 help right then. So, that's what we did. We got things 9 ready at midnight. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. Do you wear any clothes in 11 the sweat or are you naked? 12 A: We wear clothes. 13 Q: What do you wear? 14 A: I wear my shorts and I have a towel 15 and the women wear their blouses and their dresses and we 16 go in that way. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. Do you have them summer, 18 winter? 19 A: Summer and winter. 20 Q: Isn't it cold in winter? 21 A: It gets very cold. Particularly we 22 got to walk through the snow bare foot -- bare feet and - 23 - but if you have to do it, you have to do it that's all. 24 Q: Are there other people in your 25 community that have sweats?

1 A: Yes, there is. There's a -- I don't 2 even know how many's in the community now. There's a few 3 around the community. 4 Q: Is that something that's happening 5 more or less or...? 6 A: It's starting to happen more and more 7 now as people -- people get back and start to look back 8 into the traditional teachings and so forth. 9 Q: And were there sweats happening when 10 you were young that you knew of? 11 A: None that I knew of. I can't ever 12 remember when I was a child or even hearing about a sweat 13 lodge. 14 Q: Do you know why that -- why that was? 15 A: My thoughts on -- because it's been 16 just recently that a lot of our traditions have been 17 coming out and -- and people are talking about them more. 18 Our drums are starting to come back out now. 19 I know in earlier parts that we weren't 20 allowed to do a lot of this stuff. They were -- we 21 weren't allowed to do any ceremonies or have sweat lodges 22 or dance or anything and that wasn't to -- probably 23 withing the last fifty/sixty (50/60) years that maybe we 24 were allowed to do this. 25 And that's why I made the comment. I put

1 my sweat lodge in the backyard and not in the bush. I 2 wasn't going to hide it for no -- for nobody. 3 Q: So, you're making a statement by 4 putting your sweat lodge in your yard? 5 A: I guess I kind of made a small 6 statement by it but -- but people don't mind it being 7 there. 8 Q: You mentioned drums and I understand 9 you work with the drum as well? 10 A: Yes, I'm a drum keeper for -- our 11 drum has a name, Anumnimke' Ozozowin (phonetic). And 12 that refers to this drum comes from where the 13 thunderbirds nest and that's how it got its name. 14 But, I am the drum keeper of that and I 15 have a group -- there's a group of people that come and 16 they sing with the drum and there's ladies that -- that 17 follow with the drum and also help the guys that are 18 singing, they help to sing as well. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. So, why do you do that? 20 A: I do that for enjoyment and 21 relaxation. We also do it to -- to help people. It 22 helps the people. 23 Again, there's many different songs you 24 can -- you can sing. There's healing songs. There's 25 songs for -- for -- for just about everything; we have

1 flag songs, we have veteran songs, we have birthday 2 songs, we have social songs, we have -- we have, I guess, 3 there's some songs that refer particularly for -- 4 specifically for children. There's some guys that can 5 put the songs together; they -- they may talk about, 6 "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star". So, there's all 7 different kinds of songs there and they're used for all 8 different occasions. 9 Q: What sort of occasions? 10 A: Hmm hmm. 11 Q: Do you do -- do you drum at 12 occasions? 13 A: Yes, we -- we sing at funerals. 14 We've actually did a couple of weddings where -- where we 15 sing for the -- for the bride coming down the aisle. 16 We've done that before. We sing at wakes. We sing at 17 birthday parties. We sing just to -- to get -- just to 18 get together and sing. We do our drum feasts and 19 everybody gets involved in them, so there's lots of 20 activities to do with a drum. 21 Q: So, do you spend a fair bit of time 22 doing drumming? 23 A: Not as much as I --I want to right 24 now, but yes, I'd like to be at the drum more. 25 Q: Do you practise?

1 A: We practise once -- once a week. We 2 get together and it's kind of just like a social evening 3 for us. We practise our songs, but we also have a lot of 4 fun. We tease other quite a bit. Usually -- usually 5 somebody gets tease pretty heavily every week and I know 6 they like to -- to tease me quite a bit for one (1) 7 reason or another, but -- 8 Q: What reasons? 9 A: Well, we won't go into that right 10 now, but it's -- it's all in fun. It's for fun, that's 11 all it is. 12 Q: But, how -- how do you get a drum? 13 A: A drum is given to you. It's given 14 to you for -- for a specific reason. This one was given 15 to me. It was given to us shortly after -- after Dudley 16 had passed away and it was to -- to help with the 17 healing. 18 Of course, helping with the healing means 19 that you also have to learn the songs to sing on it. 20 This drum I have here, has a lot of songs that -- 21 different kinds of songs that I can't sing on it and I've 22 been told not to sing on it because it's -- it's there 23 for the people and it's there to help them with that 24 healing that they need. 25 Q: Who gave it to you? How did you get

1 it, if you can say that? 2 A: I can say how I got it. I'm never 3 ashamed about how I get stuff and who gives it to me. 4 I was talking to a guy from -- and he's an 5 Anishnaabeg police officer. I think his name was Les 6 Cloutier or George Cloutier (phonetic). I can't 7 remember what his name was, but -- 8 Q: When was that? When was that? 9 A: That was probably about four (4) or 10 five (5) months after -- after Dudley had -- had died. 11 And I asked him if he's from the Nipissing First Nations 12 where they get moose and asked him to get me a hide so we 13 could -- we could make a drum. 14 Q: You wanted to make a drum? 15 A: Yeah. And he said he would do that. 16 Then, I think, the following week he come in and he 17 presented us with this drum because he asked me -- 18 Q: A whole drum? 19 A: -- he asked me to get all my singers 20 together and -- and he brung that drum and they made a 21 presentation to us and that's how we got the drum and 22 from there everything just comes as a -- as they go 23 along. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. Why had you decided to try 25 and get a moose hide for a drum just after Dudley was

1 shot? 2 A: Because it's usually the kind of hide 3 you use to put over your -- your drum hubs, is moose, 4 because it's a little thicker. 5 Q: And why, at that particular time 6 after Dudley was shot? 7 A: Well, we'd -- we'd been singing 8 before that, or starting to sing, and -- and we used a 9 small bass drum that we had gotten, the kind to go along 10 with that drum set, and we got one (1) of them old ones 11 and that's what we were using, so we decided we were 12 going to make one, but we never got around to it. We got 13 that one presented to us and that's what we're still 14 using today. 15 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Still using it? 16 Commissioner, I don't know if this would 17 be an appropriate time to take a break. I'll be a little 18 bit longer yet. 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Sure, it 20 would be a good time. We've been an hour and fifteen 21 (15) minutes since we started. Let's take a break. 22 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 23 for fifteen (15) minutes. 24 25 -- Upon recessing at 11:46 a.m.

1 --- Upon resuming at 12:05 p.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now resumed. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: 7 Q: Before the break we were talking about 8 the drum -- 9 A: And what and for different age 10 categories and stuff like that. But Twinkle, Twinkle 11 Little Star is, I guess, a song that you sing for -- for 12 nursery rhymes and stuff like that and they incorporate - 13 - made it into a song that you can sing on a drum. 14 Q: So they would take a non-native song 15 and incorporate it, to some extent? 16 A: Yeah. They would use the wording in 17 it and they would use the chanting to fit it so the song 18 sound good. I don't know how to sing it, but I got some 19 people with their hands up out there. 20 But, no, we don't know a lot of them songs 21 like that, but they are out there. I was just trying to 22 give you examples of different songs that are -- are 23 there for -- to help the people. 24 Q: You mentioned, I think, at one point, 25 that in your view, the Creator knows no colour; is that

1 right? 2 A: That's the way it was explained to 3 me, yes. 4 Q: I take it you've done some work in 5 non-native communities as well and you've, for example, 6 you've coached a hockey team off the reserve; is that 7 right? 8 A: Yeah, a lot of my -- I guess, it's 9 just more to -- to help myself. I volunteered to coach 10 different hockey teams and I've coached here in this 11 arena with a house league team, not having any kids from 12 our community on that team, but also just to come out and 13 -- and do something different, and that's to -- to help 14 them little guys. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. And so that was a team here 16 in Forest that had no native kids on it? 17 A: No, there was none. Just little guys 18 that were learning to skate and -- well, I guess they 19 knew how to skate but they weren't on any of the 20 travelling teams, so... 21 Q: And why did you do that? 22 A: Just to, I guess, give myself 23 something else to do. It's not that I don't have lots to 24 do, it's just that I -- sometimes I have to -- to find 25 something different to do, to occupy my mind and my time

1 and -- and just to put something else, I guess, into -- 2 instead of thinking all the time about certain things. I 3 do that, it'll take my thoughts and give me some -- some 4 -- something fun to do. 5 Q: Can you tell me a little bit about 6 the activities you do for -- for kids or youth in your 7 community? 8 A: Well, right now I'm not really too 9 active, but before I was -- I worked a lot with the -- 10 the native youth Olympics, which is all the first -- 11 seven (7) bands in the area. 12 They get together and they have Olympic- 13 style events running, and high jumping and all that kind 14 of stuff and -- and we do that once a year. 15 I was instrumental in the Santa Claus 16 parade for our community, just so that the kids had that 17 opportunity to be -- to take part in a parade and they 18 don't have to go way out to -- to do that. 19 So, there's -- there's them type of 20 activities for them to do there. Like, I may take them 21 out to -- to things like Monster Gam (phonetic); that's 22 these big truck -- truck things and stuff like that. 23 Just giving them different opportunities to get out there 24 and see what else is available to them out there. 25 I know I was running a program there and I

1 called it �Boys to Mens club� and it was for -- for boys 2 that were seven (7) to thirteen (13) years of age and 3 their fathers to help them build that communication gap, 4 so once they got over that magic age of thirteen (13), 5 that they would know how to communicate at that time. 6 Q: So, you organized a Santa Claus 7 parade on the reserve; is that it -- 8 A: Yes, it's gradually getting -- it's - 9 - I think it will be into its twelfth year this year, and 10 it's gradually getting bigger. 11 Q: Were you ever Santa Claus? 12 A: I guess not a good one. 13 Q: Can you tell us, overall in relation 14 to the death of Dudley George, the things that you've 15 talked about that touched on your traditional ceremonies 16 including the dancing that you've participated in and the 17 drum and the sweat lodges and -- were there others -- 18 very quickly, were there other similar ceremonies or 19 activities that you were involved in? 20 A: There were our feasts that we were 21 involved in. We've always when -- when we bury our 22 people, we all send a dish of food along with them for 23 their journey. 24 Q: Did you have a feast for Dudley? 25 A: Yes, we did. We had one the day he -

1 - he was buried and usually for on that anniversary for 2 the next four (4) years we -- we also have one which is 3 because the people there we know they -- they're going on 4 a long journey and a hard journey and there's lots of 5 times it becomes difficult for them as -- as they are 6 travelling onto the spirit world. 7 So, we continuously feed them as they go 8 through that period of time. 9 Q: So did you have four (4) anniversary 10 feasts for Dudley after his death? 11 A: Yes, we did. 12 Q: And at the feast you -- did you give 13 food to Dudley's spirit; is that what you're saying? 14 A: Yes. There's always when you have 15 them type of feasts there's always a spirit dish that's 16 put out first before anybody else eats to -- to honour 17 them spirits and thank them. 18 Q: What do you put on the dish for 19 Dudley? 20 A: Usually we'd -- with Dudley's we put 21 all his favourite foods down on his -- particularly on 22 his first feast, just whatever he liked to eat. 23 We made sure we had them foods available; 24 banana cream pie and hamburgers and stuff like that. So, 25 you -- you honour them by giving them what their

1 favourite foods were. 2 Q: And how do you give it to them? 3 A: We usually take it to a fire and put 4 it into a fire that's built specifically for that 5 purpose. And -- and our beliefs are -- our teachings are 6 that it goes instantaneously to that person and to the 7 spirits when it's put into the fire. 8 Q: And that's what you did for Dudley? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Is there a connection between the 11 various ceremonies and activities that you've mentioned 12 in a traditional sense; your drumming, your dancing, the 13 feasts and so forth, and the attempt after Dudley's death 14 to -- to find out what had happened? 15 A: The healing part of it. If you don't 16 take care of yourself as you -- as you go through 17 particularly this -- this type of process I've been 18 through, I wouldn't have taken care of myself, I don't 19 think -- I don't know if I would have achieved what we -- 20 we're trying to do, and that was to get at the truth. 21 I know you can set all kinds of goals and 22 objectives when you're looking at something. I know I 23 put three (3) forward just particularly for myself and -- 24 and we haven't reached them three (3) yet. But if you 25 don't I guess take care of yourself, you won't -- you

1 won't achieve it. 2 Q: What are the three (3) objectives you 3 mentioned? 4 A: My three (3) objectives when after we 5 met with my family and that was, the Number 1 was to make 6 sure my brother never ever got forgotten because I don't 7 think he deserves to be forgotten. 8 And Number 2 was to get a public inquiry 9 and that is what -- where we are at today. 10 And the third one was to have the truth. 11 And we're still working towards that one. 12 Q: Are you saying that your traditional 13 ceremonies gave you strength for that process? 14 A: Yes, it did. It kept my spirituality 15 alive within -- inside of me in order to help me maintain 16 that and keep going through this. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. We've heard evidence about 18 the lands that became Ipperwash Provincial Park and 19 Dudley's connection to those lands. We've heard evidence 20 that your great grandfather I believe, Albert George 21 lived in what later became Ipperwash Provincial Park. 22 Do -- do you remember hearing that? 23 A: Yes, I do. 24 Q: What -- what does that mean for you? 25 A: What that means for me is that I know

1 that that's where my great grandfather lived. I know 2 that's where my brother died. 3 It's what took place in between that 4 periods of time, I guess, is what the important parts are 5 in all of this, and was to -- to look at how the lands 6 were taken and where they ended up -- eventually ended up 7 and -- and just exactly what Dudley was doing there that 8 night when he was -- when he was reclaiming them, so... 9 Q: We've heard evidence that Dudley 10 moved back onto the Stoney Point lands and lived there 11 for some time in some -- for a couple of years in 12 circumstances of significant hardship, in the sense of 13 not having electricity or plumbing or heating as we 14 normally know it. 15 And then we heard evidence that he and a 16 friend spent time this summer, I think before he was 17 killed, near the lakes that are near the parklands, and 18 that at one point he said that he would be willing to die 19 for those lands. Do you remember hearing that? 20 A: I remember hearing that just the 21 other day through that article that that lady had wrote 22 it. I guess it was titled, Remembering Dudley George. 23 Q: Yeah. When you hear evidence that 24 Dudley was saying he'd be willing to die for those lands, 25 how does it make you feel?

1 A: I know he -- by listening to the 2 article that he made the statement, but I didn't ever 3 think it would happen, not in these times and days. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. What do you mean? 5 A: Well, I didn't think in -- in today's 6 society that -- that things would ever come to -- to what 7 had happened there. I know that we -- we just mentioned 8 this not too long ago, where he didn't have no fear of 9 being shot and I don't think his statement falls into -- 10 his statement would fall into that category as well, 11 so... 12 Q: You mentioned that Dudley was 13 reclaiming the land. We've heard evidence that the lands 14 in the subsequent Provincial Park had originally been 15 treaty lands, guaranteed to your people by the Crown in 16 perpetuity. 17 Do you recall hearing that evidence? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: And we've heard evidence that there 20 was a process called a surrender in 1928 whereby the 21 lands that became the Park were allegedly removed from 22 your people's control and became non-native lands. 23 Do you recall hearing that evidence? 24 A: Yes, I do. 25 Q: Yeah. I'd like to ask you, based on

1 some of your experience and knowledge in your First 2 Nations community, a bit about that. 3 Now, you were a Band Councillor in your 4 community elected for a number of terms; is that right? 5 A: Yes, I was. 6 Q: Yeah. And I think four (4) terms or 7 something like that? 8 A: I was elected earlier on, and I was 9 just re-elected again a couple of years ago. But there 10 was a period I think around in 1978 or something where I 11 did sit for a couple of terms as well. 12 Q: And I understand it was during your 13 term as a Councillor that a possible agreement came 14 forward between the Federal -- Federal Government and 15 your First Nation relating to some compensation for some 16 of the Stoney Point lands; is that right? 17 A: Yes, there was. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. And that involved some 19 payment for -- for those lands? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And did you support that agreement? 22 A: I didn't -- even though I sat on 23 Council, I didn't really support that agreement because I 24 didn't really know how -- or we didn't have really good, 25 clear direction on -- on where that would take us in the

1 future. 2 I know the -- the agreement was to be that 3 there was supposed to be back-pay that was supposedly 4 paid in 1942 then recalculated as years and interest 5 growing and that's how they arrived at that figure. 6 Q: I'd like to ask you, based on your 7 experience as a Councillor and your experience as a 8 traditional participant in -- in some of your various 9 ceremonies including your dancing and your drumming, 10 about your assessment of some of the conditions 11 surrounding the time of the Park lands when they were 12 surrendered back in 1928. And I would like to put to you 13 in a simplified form a number of excerpts from the Indian 14 Act that applied at that time. 15 Now, you were sitting here for the 16 testimony of Mr. Ovide Mercredi, former National Chief; 17 is that right? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And you heard him speak about the 20 Indian Act in his -- 21 A: Yes, I did. 22 MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN: Yeah. And I 23 would like to distribute some copies of that, Mr. 24 Commissioner. I've circulated them before and given 25 notice to Counsel.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Could you 2 send one up? I'm not sure if I have one. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MR. MURRAY KLIPPENSTEIN. 10 Q: First of all, Sam, I've put before 11 you some -- a few excerpts from the 1927 Indian Act which 12 was enforced from 1927 to 1951, approximately a quarter 13 century. 14 You've talked about some of your 15 traditional dancing and it's importance to you and I 16 would like to refer you to Section 140 of the Act at that 17 point. Do you have that? 18 A: Yes, I do. 19 Q: And I think it's uncontroversial and 20 not -- not in any way a -- a technical legal 21 interpretation or comment that well know over the decades 22 that this Section basically prohibited a lot of Indian 23 dancing. Let me just read the -- the underlined parts to 24 you which say quote: 25 "Every Indian who engages in

1 celebrating any Indian festival dance 2 or other ceremony of which the giving 3 away or paying or giving back of money, 4 goods or articles of any sort, is 5 guilty of an offence and is liable to 6 imprisonment for a term not less than 7 two (2) months." 8 Do you see how that appears in that 9 Section? 10 A: Yes, I do. 11 Q: Now it mentions festivals where 12 there's giving away of -- of articles. Does the -- the 13 idea of giving away articles mean anything to you in -- 14 in connection to festivals or feasts? 15 A: Yes, it does. We do have ceremonies 16 that are -- are specifically for that and I'll go back to 17 the first one we had for Dudley in which we -- we 18 acknowledge all the people we could remember at that time 19 that helped us. And -- and when we were going through 20 that -- that first year of mourning and what we did what 21 they refer to as a giveaway. 22 And we tried to -- to show our thanks to 23 the people, my family and myself, by giving them 24 something small whether it was a set of cups or -- or it 25 was a hat, or just something like that. Just something

1 that would give them some type of -- we could give them 2 some type of appreciation for -- for what they did for us 3 over that -- that first year of mourning. 4 So, that -- that would into that -- they 5 claim the giveaways. And giveaways are quite common even 6 at the pow-wows and every place you attain their goal 7 anymore. 8 Q: So, based on what you say, it would 9 appear that in the old days the feast you had for Dudley 10 at which there was a giveaway probably would have 11 contravened this Section and you might have been liable 12 for imprisonment. Did -- were you aware of that? 13 A: I heard some -- I used to hear some 14 of it before but I never really -- I've never really seen 15 this until now and that's what it looks like, if we were 16 to do that in this period of time that we most certainly 17 would have been in jail for -- for doing that and -- 18 because we've always believed that -- that when they 19 pass, it's not --it's a celebration of life and that's 20 why we do that type of stuff, is we -- we give for 21 their... 22 Q: Following up on that, turn the page 23 if you would, to Section 154 of that 1927 Indian Act, and 24 that says in the parts I've underlined, quote: 25 �If any Indian is convicted of any

1 crime punishable by imprisonment, the 2 costs incurred in procuring such 3 conviction may be paid out of an 4 annuity or interest coming to the 5 Band.� 6 So, that looks like if there's a 7 conviction including if somebody who's convicted or 8 having an illegal Indian dance, the costs of it are 9 charged to the Band. 10 Do you see that? 11 A: Yes, I do. 12 Q: What do you think of that? 13 A: I think that they would -- if one was 14 to break the law, they would -- they would charge 15 everybody, they would punish everybody by having them 16 take it out of their monies as a whole, and paying the 17 fines to whatever extent they may be. 18 Q: Can you tell me, as a -- someone who 19 -- whose ancestors lived on the lands that were allegedly 20 surrendered in 1928 and as someone who's participated a 21 great deal in some aboriginal ceremonies, and as a former 22 political leader in your community, whether this kind of 23 prohibition would have any effect on how a community 24 would see a proposal to surrender land? 25 A: I would -- I guess I would look at

1 that as a way of -- of our people not maybe -- not really 2 having a choice in this. They're giving -- they're given 3 the information, but not really having the say to -- to 4 whether or not the land is -- is being sold or not. 5 I don't think it gives them much choice. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 Q: I'd like to ask you a number of 11 questions related to the way the Indian Act in 1927 dealt 12 with First Nation community leaders, and if you could 13 turn to Section 177 of that excerpt. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 Q: It refers to a -- a Council and 18 that's the kind of -- that's a Band Council, that's what 19 you sat on yourself, as an elected leader; is that right? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Now, 177 in that Act says: 22 �The Council shall meet at such place 23 on the reserve and at such times as the 24 Agent for the reserve appoints.� 25 And then the next section, 178, says:

1 �At such meeting of the Council, the 2 Agent for the reserve shall preside, 3 control and regulate all matters of 4 procedure and form, report all bylaws 5 and other Acts and proceedings of the 6 Council to the Superintendent General 7 and address the Council and explain and 8 advise the members thereof upon their 9 powers and duties.� 10 Now, that seems to describe the role the 11 Indian Agent at the time had in the meetings of the First 12 Nation Council. 13 Now, as a Councillor, how would you feel 14 if an Indian Agent was sitting in one of your meetings 15 doing those things? 16 A: Well, I don't see where the Band 17 Council had any -- any powers at all. The Indian Agent 18 here has all the powers and -- and to tell them when -- 19 what they can do, when they can do it and how they can do 20 it. 21 It says it that -- they explain to them 22 their powers and duties and what are them, if the Indian 23 Agent controls all of that? So, they really didn't have 24 any. 25 Q: And can you tell me, as a modern day

1 Band Councillor, how that makes you think about the 2 process in 1927 when a surrender allegedly occurred under 3 this Indian Act of the lands that your great-grandfather 4 was living on and the lands that Dudley later died for? 5 A: Now, would this -- give me an idea on 6 how -- how much power that -- that Indian agent did have 7 at the time in -- in -- in surrenders of them lands, what 8 we known as the Ipperwash Provincial Park, because to me 9 it looks like whether or not they didn't want to 10 surrender it, the Indian Agent had that power to -- to go 11 ahead and -- and agree to any surrenders that -- that may 12 come forth. 13 Q: Can you refer, then, to Section 141 14 of that same excerpt of the 1927 surrender or Indian Act, 15 rather. And that Section 141 says: 16 "Every person who receives from any 17 Indian, any payment for the prosecution 18 of any claim which the Tribe or Band of 19 Indians has for the recovery of any 20 claim or money for the benefit of the 21 said Tribe or Band, shall be guilty of 22 an offence." 23 Now, this section, I think, is pretty much 24 universally recognized as making it difficult or 25 impossible for bands to hire lawyers to defend their land

1 rights at that time. Can you tell me, as a modern-day 2 band Councillor, how you view the 1928 surrender when, at 3 that time, it seemed pretty much prohibited for First 4 Nations people to hire lawyers? 5 A: It basically left them defenceless, 6 because they weren't really in control. The Indian Agent 7 was in control. They had lawyers that would help them 8 and our people just had to sit back and -- and watch what 9 was going on. 10 Q: If you could turn to the other page, 11 Section 138, the Indian Act at that point says: 12 "Every Agent who knowingly and falsely 13 informs any person applying to him to 14 purchase any land that the same has 15 already been purchased or who refuses 16 to permit the person so applying to 17 purchase the same according to existing 18 regulations, shall be liable, 19 therefore, to the person so applying." 20 Now, that seems to suggest that a person 21 who wants to buy Indian land can sue the Indian agent if 22 the Indian agent declines or refuses to sell it to them 23 in accordance with the regulations. As a -- as a -- as a 24 band Councillor, what -- what does that leave you 25 thinking with respect to a surrender such as the 1928

1 surrender if the Indian agent is potentially liable to be 2 sued by the person who wants to buy the land? 3 A: That would just tell me that -- that 4 if the Indian Agent, himself, did -- did not want to -- 5 to be put in jail, that he would do everything in his 6 power to make sure he could get that sale of land moved 7 through and that -- that would be for his own protection 8 so that he wouldn't end up in jail, again, leaving our 9 people sitting on the side watching what was going o