1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 7th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )    (np)
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )    (np)
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   (np)
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein )            The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )   (np)     George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    )            Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )   (np)       Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena  (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )   (np)       Kettle Point & Stony
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  Colleen Johnson  )   (np)
 22  
 23  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 24  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 25  Susan Freeborn   )   (np)

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Ian Smith        )   (np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (np)
 11  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 12  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 13  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. ) (np)      Marcel Beaubien
 14  Trevor Hinnegan     ) 
 15  
 16  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 17  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 18  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 19  
 20  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 21  Karen Jones      )              Police Association &
 22  Debra Newell     )   (np)       K. Deane
 23  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
 24  Annie Leeks      )   (np)
 25

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  Clem Nabigon     )   (np)
  7  Adriel Weaver     )   (np)       Student-at-Law
  8  
  9  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
 10  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 11  
 12  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 13  Matthew Horner   )
 14  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 15  
 16  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 17  Craig Mills      )
 18  
 19  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 20  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 21  Melissa Panjer   )
 22  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 23  
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 ROSE MANNING, Resumed 6 Continued Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Katherine Hensel 7 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 111 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 119 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jennifer McAleer 133 10 11 MAYNARD DONALD GEORGE, Affirmed 12 Examination-In-Chief by Mr. Derry Millar 157 13 14 15 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 206 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-332 Document 2003357 statement of Staff 4 Sergeant K. Bouwman, November 17/'94 5 11:55 hours to August 05/'95, 10:05 6 hours, re: contacts with people living 7 on CFB Ipperwash 68 8 P-333 Three photographs of "Sam" George and 9 his children in native dress. 174 10 P-334 Sarnia Observer article "Remembering 11 Dudley George" by Anne Kavanagh 12 Beachey 186 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, Mrs. Manning. Good morning. 8 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Good morning, Mr. 9 Commissioner. Good morning, Mrs. Manning. 10 11 ROSE MANNING, Resumed 12 13 CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 14 A: Good Morning. 15 Q: My apologies. Before we broke 16 yesterday, you will recall that we were discussing the 17 events of 1993 and the movement of people onto the Army 18 Camp and the last topic we discussed was your walk to 19 Ottawa; the walk of many of you to Ottawa. 20 I'd like to move onto another topic now. 21 We've heard from other witnesses about allegations that a 22 Military helicopter flying over the -- the Army Camp was 23 shot during -- shot at during 1993 -- in August of 1993. 24 Were you aware of those allegations? 25 A: Is that where we broke off yesterday?

1 I don't -- I thought it was -- I think that's -- my story 2 begins before that. 3 Q: Yeah. And we had discussed 4 yesterday, or you had told us about going into the Army 5 Camp and you told us about walking to Ottawa or driving 6 to Ottawa, and so the next topic that I was going to ask 7 you about were the allegations concerning the helicopter. 8 A: Am I aware of the -- the first thing, 9 I would like to introduce myself. 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: (NATIVE LANGUAGE SPOKEN) And I'm 12 known as Rose Manning. Miijwetch. 13 Q: Shall I continue? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: We have heard from other witnesses of 16 an allegation that a helicopter flying over the Army Camp 17 was shot at in August of 1993. 18 Were you aware of those allegations? 19 A: Yes, I was. 20 Q: Okay. And were you present at the 21 Army Camp when it -- when this incident was alleged to 22 have occurred? 23 A: Yes, I was. 24 Q: And -- 25 A: Prior to that, though, there was all

1 kinds of helicopters flying over. There was police 2 helicopters at times and there was the Army and we had 3 nightly visits from the, I guess it's the army -- the 4 army. Too early in the morning for me. 5 But we have visits every -- nightly from 6 the helicopters so it wasn't a big surprise that wow, 7 there's a helicopter flying over. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: They -- they continuously fly over 10 about -- about every two (2) hours. 11 Q: Okay. And did you find those -- 12 A: And then shone their lights on us. 13 So that night wasn't any different. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. And you were -- what 15 was the effect on you and your family of helicopters 16 flying overhead as you've described. 17 A: Well they were annoying because you 18 were just -- just getting to sleep and a helicopter would 19 fly over and wake you up. But, I guess that was their 20 intention was to keep us awake and maybe scare us off of 21 there because we weren't getting -- getting our rest. 22 You -- we weren't sleeping properly. 23 Q: Okay. So returning now to the 24 allegations we've -- I've referred to. On the night in 25 question, what were you doing?

1 A: I was babysitting -- 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: -- at my camp on the range. 4 Q: All right. 5 A: That's beside the quarry where I had 6 my camp and that's where I was with all the Manning 7 family, all the Manning children. 8 Q: Okay. And what else was going on in 9 the Army Camp that evening? 10 A: Well, they had -- they had a memorial 11 feast for my -- for my oldest daughter at the George 12 camp. 13 Q: Okay. And what was your daughter's 14 name? 15 A: Marena. 16 Q: And can you describe the 17 circumstances of that memorial feast, how it came to be? 18 A: Well, I suppose we were all there in 19 our -- finally all home in our home -- homeland and I 20 guess everybody was wishing she was there and somebody 21 suggested we have a memorial feast for her so -- and so 22 they were all invited. We had a medicine man there and 23 we -- I guess they had everything they needed so they 24 went ahead with -- but I didn't want to attend anyway 25 because it was still -- it is still a touchy subject for

1 me and was at the time so I volunteered to keep the 2 children. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And -- because the rest of my 5 children wanted to see her which they did. They seen her 6 dancing around the fire. 7 Q: And your daughter had passed away 8 some time before? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And we also understand from 11 other witnesses that the OPP conducted a search of -- of 12 the dwellings of the people occupying the camp shortly 13 after those -- the allegations were made that a 14 helicopter was shot at. Do you recall that search? 15 A: The night in question, you know, yes, 16 it was right the very next day. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: They searched the whole -- they 19 searched the whole camp from the back to the front 20 because they thought somebody shot the helicopter. But I 21 suppose you've seen pictures of it. It don't look like 22 it was shot. Maybe it was so low somebody may have throw 23 a stone at it or something. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. And returning to -- 25 A: I remember that night because it came

1 over my -- my place with all the kids and -- and I was 2 trying to shine light back at them and I couldn't because 3 I couldn't connect the wires to the battery, putting the 4 wires in the wrong spot and it -- this began to spark. 5 Q: Okay. And, so, returning now to the 6 OPP search, can -- can you describe what happened? Did 7 they search your dwelling? 8 A: They searched everybody's. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: Like I said, they started off at the 11 -- the beach and they had dogs and -- and they walked all 12 through the bush and searched; it took them all day. And 13 they -- they had a helicopter that night, too -- that 14 day, too, and it -- and it landed in front of my -- my 15 camp. 16 Q: Okay. And they -- you mean the OPP? 17 A: The OPP searched all through there. 18 Q: Okay. And it was an OPP helicopter? 19 A: Yes, it was, and we -- we have a -- 20 we have a picture. We have a picture of that. 21 Q: Okay. Can you describe that 22 helicopter for us, Mrs. Manning? 23 A: Yes, it was white and blue. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: Or white and black, but it was -- and

1 it was marked, "OPP." 2 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. 3 A: And -- and I do have a videotape of 4 it somewhere. I was just talking to my daughter and she 5 was wondering where that videotape went of -- of this 6 helicopter that flew over because I went underneath it 7 and I know another -- I know a few people that have that 8 because they said they remember me going through the -- 9 past the helicopter, because I was getting my medication; 10 I was trying to get my medication. 11 Q: Okay. And did you have any 12 interactions with OPP officers that day? 13 A: Yes, I had one (1). 14 Q: Hmm hmm. And can you describe that 15 for us? 16 A: Well, I think I had two (2) of them. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: I had one (1) at the bridge, at that 19 Mud Creek bridge because they told me not to cross that 20 bridge. 21 Q: And that's -- 22 A: And I said I'm -- I said, I'm going 23 across and they said, No, you're not. And I said -- 24 someone said -- there was a few of them there, I said, 25 I'm going across and they said, We're going to shoot you

1 if you do and I don't know if they were jesting or if it 2 was trying to intimidate or -- I don't know. I -- I knew 3 they weren't going to shoot me, anyway, but I said, Well, 4 take your pick, either shoot me from behind or shoot me 5 going through, but I'm going through. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: So, I crossed the bridge and I had 8 one (1) kid in each hand, but myself, I didn't think they 9 would, it was just -- 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: -- and then I went past the -- there 12 was a lot of people there. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. A lot of people at the Army 14 Camp? 15 A: Right at that bridge as I was going 16 across, because we had a little -- little -- that little 17 building. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: It was on the news last night, that 20 little building and it was our -- our supply room -- 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: -- or house or whatever you want to 23 call it. And then I had another little encounter with a 24 female officer. I said, I'm going home because they were 25 digging around at my house now and I said, I'm going back

1 there because I had -- I was after my medication. 2 I just -- found out I was a diabetic and 3 I'd have my medication and I didn't have it and I was 4 getting shaky and -- and she says, You're not going back 5 there. I said, Yes I am and she got a hold of me and 6 somebody ran up and said, She's an -- she's an old lady 7 and she let go of me immediately. 8 And she said, Well, you shouldn't go back 9 there. But anyway, that was the -- that was -- she let 10 go of me and I went back to the -- I went back to my camp 11 and got my medication. 12 There they -- they even upset our garbage. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: I seen garbage all over and they had 15 gloves on; they put all that garbage back. 16 So they really went through our camp with 17 a fine tooth comb. And they did find a broken bee bee 18 gun and a slingshot and flare gun. 19 Q: And where did they find that? 20 A: At our camp. So, they took those 21 with them. 22 Q: Okay. Okay. Moving now to a 23 different topic, I understand that you were acquainted 24 with an officer, an OPP officer named Bouwman? 25 A: Well, I knew him, I can't say I was

1 acquaint -- he was a close acquaintance. 2 Q: Okay. And where did you know him 3 from? 4 A: From near my home. He was my 5 neighbour. 6 Q: Okay. And I'm going to ask you about 7 a series of conversations that Officer Bouwman has made 8 notes regarding. If I could take you to Tab 3 of the 9 binder in from of you. 10 A: I'm not looking for it because I 11 can't see it anyway. 12 Q: Okay. I will read you then the 13 relevant passages of the documents. And that is Inquiry 14 Document Number 20 -- for the record, 203357. 15 A: Well, just before that, I would like 16 to say if -- if the -- it just dawned on me just now, if 17 the police were really -- they were looking a gun or 18 looking for something, a weapon of some sort, but if they 19 looked all through that camp and all through the bushes 20 and wherever, they -- they never found nothing, so there 21 couldn't have been nothing there because they were all 22 over the place; in everybody's place, it wasn't only my 23 place they searched thoroughly. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. Thank you. Okay. Moving 25 now to the conversation that I described earlier, Officer

1 Bouwman noted that -- or reported that on November 17th, 2 1994 at 11:55 hours, so that's five to noon, he receive a 3 call from you and that you stated that people on the army 4 base were rounding up and shooting deer, not shooting at 5 MNR people as alleged. 6 He notes that you indicated that if 7 Officer Bouwman wanted to talk to the people occupying 8 the camp, he should come to the community hall on a 9 Saturday afternoon. He reported that you also stated 10 that you feel other people on the Army Base -- or, other 11 people are stealing cars and dropping them off on the 12 Army Base to make their people look bad. 13 Now, I'm going to ask you a couple of 14 questions a bout -- about those notes. Do you recall 15 people on the Army Base rounding and shooting deer? 16 A: No, I don't. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: At that time we, you know, we always 19 have that deer call so we didn't need to round up deer. 20 Q: Where was the deer call? 21 A: I sure wouldn't ask -- I sure 22 wouldn't ask a police person to go and round up a deer or 23 three (3) deers. 24 Q: Okay. If I could ask you where's the 25 deer call that you referred to?

1 A: At the Pinery. 2 Q: At the Pinery? At the Pinery Park? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. Do you recall having this 5 conversation with Officer Bouwman? 6 7 (BRIEF PAUSE) 8 9 Q: Okay. We have heard evidence from 10 other people at the Army Camp that they did hunt deer 11 while they were occupying during this period. 12 Did you -- were you aware of that hunting 13 activity? 14 A: No, I wasn't. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: I wasn't all over the place. The men 17 were probably aware of it. But, I -- I wasn't aware of 18 anybody hunting deer in the Army Camp, but I know they 19 were hunting deer off the camp -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- like in the Pinery. 22 Q: All right. And do you recall having 23 this conversation as I've recounted it to you, with 24 Officer Bouwman? 25 A: No.

1 Q: No? 2 A: No. There's no way I had that 3 conversation with him -- 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: -- regarding firearms or -- or deer. 6 Q: And do you recall -- 7 A: And I -- and I wouldn't say that they 8 were firing at the -- the -- what was it I was -- 9 Q: MNR, which is short for Ministry of 10 Natural of Resources. 11 A: No, there's no way I would say that 12 to them. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: Why would I say such a -- 15 Q: Actually, what he noted is that you 16 said people were not shooting at MNR officials, but 17 rather that they were shooting at deer. 18 A: Not to my knowledge. 19 Q: Okay. Do you recall inviting Officer 20 Bouwman at any point to attend a meeting on Saturday 21 afternoon at the community hall at the -- at the Army 22 Camp? 23 A: No, I don't. 24 Q: No? Okay. And -- 25 A: Because we. as a rule, we never

1 invited any police officers into the Army Camp, but we 2 did speak to them outside of the gate. 3 Q: We have heard testimony from other 4 witnesses that some officers did attend meetings at the 5 Army Camp at the community -- 6 A: I thought it was off the Army Camp. 7 Q: That's -- 8 A: I thought they went other -- other 9 places other than the Army Camp; I -- I do know that. 10 They had meetings elsewhere, but not at the Army Camp, to 11 my -- this is to what I know, but they could have. I 12 know -- I wasn't aware of everything that went on there. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: I wasn't there all the time. 15 Q: All right. And as to his observation 16 that you said that you felt other people were stealing 17 cars and dropping them off on the Army Base to make their 18 people look bad, do you recall having concerns about 19 stolen cars being dropped off at the Army Base? 20 A: Well, there was this one car that -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: -- and I took a whole roll of film 23 showing me that it was a white car someone brought in 24 there -- 25 Q: Hmm hmm.

1 A: -- and I don't know who it was. To 2 this day, I don't know who brought it there, but they -- 3 the police were right behind, almost skidding around 4 there chasing that white car and they threw belts at the 5 car, so it could have injured other people and -- or 6 whoever was driving it, but I don't even know whose car 7 it was and I still have those pictures of that. 8 Q: Okay. And when did that occur? 9 A: It was a stolen car. 10 Q: When did that occur? 11 A: Oh, I don't -- I have no idea. 12 Q: Okay. All right. All right, he 13 notes -- Officer Bouwman notes, on the second page of the 14 same document, that he attended at the community centre 15 at a meeting with Carl George, Rose and Bert Manning; 16 Bert, I -- I understand is your son, Judas George, 17 Marlene Cloud and other Natives. He says: 18 "Talked about illegal entrances, 19 criminal occurrences and background on 20 the Base. They were advised that we 21 would [by "we" he meant -- he would 22 have meant the OPP] would investigate 23 all criminal occurrences and apply the 24 law equally to everyone. He Stated 25 they would attempt to control their own

1 people." 2 First of all, do you recall that meeting 3 or do recall attending that meeting? 4 A: Well, that must have been real -- 5 very early on in our -- I do recall something like that, 6 but that was just prior to our... 7 Q: He reports that that meeting occurred 8 on November 19th, 1994. 9 A: Is that right after we went in? 10 Q: That would have been about a year and 11 a half after you went in. 12 A: No, I don't remember. But, we had 13 those meetings when we first went in. I remember all 14 kinds of meetings with -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- with the police. 17 Q: So, you have no recollection of that 18 meeting whatsoever? 19 A: No. Now that you brought it up, I 20 thought it happened way before. 21 Q: Okay. And, from what you can recall 22 -- so, you do now recall attending that meeting? 23 A: Well, I -- I might have, I'm not 24 positively sure, but -- 25 Q: And at any point -- point, do you

1 remember meeting with any OPP officers to discuss 2 criminal occurrences on the Base and how they were to be 3 policed? 4 A: Well, I might have -- I might have 5 sat in on them, but I don't recall having anything to say 6 about them. 7 Q: Okay. Okay. And moving now in the 8 same document in Page 4, Sergeant Bouwman -- Staff 9 Sergeant Bouwman advises that on My 16th, 1995, he: 10 "Called Rose Manning and advised her of 11 beach patrol. She stated they would be 12 setting up their trailers on the 13 beaches; they did last year, and did 14 not want whites or the police on their 15 land. Advised her we had the okay from 16 Carl George to use the beach. 17 Stated they would meet with Carl George 18 and get back to me." 19 Do you recall having that conversation 20 with Officer Bouwman? 21 A: Yes, I recall that meeting. 22 Q: Okay. And what did you do as a 23 result of that meeting? 24 A: Pardon? 25 Q: What did you do as a result of that

1 conversation? 2 A: Well, it was a pretty lengthy 3 conversation. Like we had -- 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: -- we did have a meeting. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: And as I understand him, he wanted to 8 -- to use the -- the beach as going over to other -- on 9 the other side of the -- the Park and he didn't want to 10 bother to hitch up his trailers and -- and drive over 11 there. 12 He said he just wanted to cut across. 13 But, during the conversation, like, I listened to him and 14 -- and listened to this -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- listened to all this stuff and -- 17 and then I thought, well, you know, there's going to be a 18 lot of trouble if he starts cutting through there. He's 19 going to be watching us, too, and we wouldn't be -- you 20 know, there'd be -- somebody might say something to him 21 or something might happen and I said, No, I didn't want 22 him to do that. 23 But, I said, we have enough to -- we have 24 enough people to look after, let alone look after a 25 policeman that's going by to wherever he's going. So --

1 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- I said you can just continue to 3 hitch up your... 4 Q: We -- we have heard evidence from Mr. 5 Glenn George that his mother called him, and told him 6 that yo had called her -- 7 A: Yes, well I -- I did her call her. 8 Well, I didn't. I said when I -- when I made my -- after 9 I made my decision, I said I'll call somebody else 10 that'll -- you can talk to. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: And so I called Melva. I was looking 13 for Glenn and she -- she, in turn got a hold of Glenn and 14 he's the one that told Mr. Bouwman what we had decided 15 on. 16 Q: Hmm hmm, okay. And -- 17 A: I think he went to Carl George, as a 18 matter of fact, on the -- 19 Q: Okay -- 20 A: -- reserve and he -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: -- straightened all that -- all this 23 out and so -- 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: -- it --

1 Q: All right, he also -- Sergeant 2 Bouwman also reports that on May 17th, that's the next 3 day, you: 4 "Called him back to advise him they did 5 not want the cops on the beach at the 6 Army base. They will post no 7 trespassing signs." 8 By that, he means your group: 9 "Stated that Carl George has authority 10 over them and that Glenn George speaks 11 for them as their councillor." 12 Do you recall having that telephone 13 conversation with Officer Bouwman? 14 A: No, I don't, because I never, ever 15 called Officer Bouwman. I never had a phone to call him 16 and -- and -- but he might have got a -- 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: No, I don't recall that I had this 19 telephone conversation with him, because I did not have a 20 phone -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: Nor I -- nor did I have ways of 23 contacting him. He always came -- you know, he always 24 came around and asked for someone. 25 Q: Okay. He came around to the Army

1 Camp and asked for someone? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: So you don't recall having telephone 4 conversations with Officer Bouwman? 5 A: No, I never had no telephone 6 conversation with him. 7 Q: Okay. And -- 8 A: They had no phone at that time. 9 Q: All right. And were you spending -- 10 A: And my -- my house is quite a ways 11 away. I did have a telephone there but I sure wouldn't 12 be calling him because I was at the Camp. 13 Q: Okay. And I understand that during 14 this period, you had taken on the role of spokesperson 15 for the people living at the army camp? 16 A: At that time. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. Right. And in that 18 capacity -- 19 A: No. It was before then. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: I didn't -- I didn't take it on; 22 somebody just asked me to do it. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: And because nobody else wanted to 25 talk to the media.

1 Q: Right. 2 A: And so I was asked. I -- I didn't 3 take on the -- I didn't take it on myself. 4 Q: But you accepted that task -- 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: -- when it was asked of you? 7 A: Yes, I did. 8 Q: Okay. And in that capacity did you 9 also act as an intermediary or a spokesperson with any 10 police forces, with the police? 11 A: No. 12 Q: And -- 13 A: Well I did if they were around. But 14 I didn't go out of my way to look for a policeman to talk 15 with and to ask, you know, to ask for anything or... 16 Q: Okay. And so would you have any 17 explanation for Officer Bouwman making these notes and 18 recounting these telephone conversations as -- with you 19 having called him? 20 A: No, I don't. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: Knowing him, maybe he just scribbled 23 them out to say well I -- I done this today. 24 Q: Okay. And also during this period, 25 this is I would say in 1994 and 1995, prior to your entry

1 in -- before you and your people moved into the built-up 2 area, can you describe the -- the leadership -- who was 3 taking on a leadership role at the Army Camp? 4 Actually if I could revise that from 1993 5 until 1995. When you went into the Army Camp until 1995 6 when you went into the built-up area, what was the 7 leadership structure like there? 8 A: Well, I can't say we had -- well we 9 did have a Council. 10 Q: Okay. And were you a member of that 11 Council? 12 A: I mean we did -- we did have a -- we 13 voted and I have that -- I have that paper where we 14 selected different people to act as councillors. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And we did have Carl as Chief for a 17 short time. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: And -- but prior -- you said prior to 20 that? 21 Q: I said prior to your entering into 22 the built-up area some -- perhaps it would be helpful if 23 we started in 1993 when you went into the Army Camp. 24 A: Well I went into the Army Camp with 25 Maynard, M.T. George, as -- he want, you know, him and

1 Janet decided when we were to go in. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: And I took my marching orders from 4 them. 5 Q: Okay. And you also mentioned that 6 Carl George was acting as chief at that time? 7 A: No, he wasn't -- not at -- not when 8 we went in. 9 Q: Okay. But shortly after -- 10 A: But he was with Maynard when -- when 11 they gathered all the papers for him to -- for -- the 12 eviction notices. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: He -- he was with them to do all this 15 and we went in legally. 16 Q: Hmm hmm. And on what do you base 17 your belief that you went in legally, or your -- your 18 statement that you went in legally? 19 A: Because -- because Maynard said so 20 and he said he had done all the -- well we done all this 21 research and he said he finally found the loophole to get 22 in there. And so we were going in and no one would 23 bother us; no one couldn't kick us out of there. And -- 24 and he was -- it was all to be done in a -- in a peaceful 25 manner and we wouldn't be using any guns or any -- any

1 form of harassment. 2 We would just go in -- in and sit in -- in 3 just the way we -- we were forced out the first time. 4 Like, they just went in and praying and -- and they -- 5 and Janet still is a Christian person and she still prays 6 about everything and that's the -- the way we went in. 7 Q: Okay. And -- and again, with respect 8 to the leadership at the time, you -- you described 9 yourself as taking orders from Maynard T. George and you 10 also mentioned that Carl George, shortly after, took on 11 the position of Chief. 12 Did you, yourself, take on a position as a 13 councillor? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. 16 A: I wasn't a councillor. I didn't 17 apply -- I didn't put my name -- I was nominated to be a 18 councillor. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: I was too old to be a councillor. 21 Q: All right. And -- 22 A: But I supported it. I was -- I was 23 there when the whole thing went on. I was in that hall 24 and Carl's mother was there, so we were both there to 25 make sure everything was -- was done in decency and in

1 order. 2 Q: Okay. And, were you regarded by 3 others at that time as an Elder? 4 A: I don't know. 5 Q: Okay. Can you describe the role -- 6 A: And it didn't matter to me, I 7 wasn't there to be a Elder or to be a -- a leader, to be 8 anything. I was there to do a job and that's what I was 9 in there for. 10 And I done my job to the best of my 11 ability and that was to get our land back and get 12 recognized that they should be dealing with this problem 13 now instead of another fifty (50) years and that is -- 14 was the reason I went in there. 15 Q: And did people come to you for advice 16 about what they should do? 17 A: Why should they come to me for 18 advice, they got their own way of thinking. But I did 19 advise people on -- if they did ask me. Like... 20 Q: Okay. You -- you -- 21 A: I'm -- I'm not a -- I wasn't a leader 22 there. 23 Q: All right. And you described 24 earlier, an election of councillors at Stoney Point, how 25 long did that -- to the best of your recollection, how

1 long did that council continue to function in a decision- 2 making capacity after -- after it was elected? 3 A: How long? 4 Q: Yeah. 5 A: I don't know, I think it just -- 6 everybody just -- I really don't know because I never 7 went to a councillor. 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: I know Glenn -- Glenn got the most 10 votes even out -- out on Carl as Chief. Like, he could 11 have went for a Chief and I was just, You got more votes 12 than anybody, so I think... 13 Q: Hmm hmm. And we understand that 14 these elections, from other witnesses, these elections 15 took place in 1993. Do you recall them happening during 16 that timeframe? 17 A: Time stood still for me. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: I can't recall. 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: Just things happen and I just took 22 one (1) day at a time. 23 Q: Okay. I'm going to move now, Mrs. 24 Manning -- Oh, first of all, I have a question about -- 25 during the time that you were occupying the Army Base, I

1 understand that -- or we understand that people would 2 visit from other First Nations; do you recall that 3 occurring? 4 A: Yes, they -- they did visit. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: Like, we went in there and there was 7 supporters come from different reserves. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: And they would visit different -- 10 their relatives or they would come bring in and like, you 11 -- you have to understand, we never had nothing -- no 12 ways -- no means of supporting ourselves, some of -- some 13 of them -- some of us. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: But, my -- but, my boys had to 16 continue to work and so they were our, you know, support 17 -- supported us through bringing our food in. And the 18 people that came to visit, they -- they brought in food 19 and -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: -- blankets and different things. 22 They were of great support, because we never had nothing, 23 but they never had no -- we were living there with 24 nothing and -- except for -- for the donations that came 25 in.

1 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: So, this is another reason why people 3 were there. 4 Q: Okay. And do you recall two (2) men 5 by the name of Russ or Royal Russ Jewel and Les Jewel 6 visiting the Army camp? 7 A: Oh, yes, they lived there for quite a 8 while. 9 Q: All right. And do you know why they 10 had initially come to live at the Army Camp or to visit? 11 A: Well, I think they were friends of 12 Glen's -- 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: -- and I, myself knew their father -- 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: -- because he was a preacher and he 17 used to come around preaching around -- well, he used to 18 preach at my daughter's place at one -- one time. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: And I got to know him there, and -- 21 but he -- he never came to the camp with the -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 Q: -- father. But -- 24 A: To your knowledge, did -- did the 25 Jewel brothers, I understand they were brothers, did they

1 play any role in decision making at the camp during the 2 time they were there? 3 A: Not to my knowledge. They didn't -- 4 they didn't give me any orders. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: They might have someone else, but not 7 -- not myself. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: Okay. Moving now to -- and one final 12 question about -- do you recall the arrival of -- 13 actually, I'll move on to another topic area right now. 14 We understand that on July 29th of 1995, a 15 number of people including yourself, moved into the 16 built-up area of the Army Camp. 17 Can you describe the planning that 18 occurred, prioring -- prior to your entering the built-up 19 area of the Army camp? 20 A: The planning? 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: Well, we didn't have -- we didn't -- 23 actually, we didn't -- we were quite -- we were quite 24 happy to be where we were. 25 Q: Hmm hmm.

1 A: And -- 2 Q: By that, you mean at -- in the 3 ranges? 4 A: In the -- on the range. 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: And this -- I think it was the 7 Saturday, no, it was the Friday evening, we were having a 8 picnic of sorts in front of Clifford -- not Clifford, 9 Pearl George's cabin, in the -- where the school used to 10 be and the church. 11 So, we were having a -- we were having a 12 picnic there and I came from my own -- from my place 13 where I used to live. 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: And so as we were sitting there, this 16 media person from the Globe and Mail showed up -- 17 Q: Hmm hmm. How did you know he was 18 from the Globe and Mail? 19 A: He said so. He said, I'm from the 20 Globe and Mail, and he thought we should give him -- give 21 him a story. 22 Q: Can you recall his name? 23 A: No, I didn't -- I can't. 24 Q: And what happened next? 25 A: Well, because I wouldn't give him a

1 story he got upset. Well, I was upset because he was 2 ruining our picnic and you know, when you like to have a 3 good time and not worry about media or any -- or the DND 4 people, the soldiers or whoever it was or the police. 5 We were just having a great time and he 6 came along and so I kind of maybe said some things I 7 shouldn't have said like, No, I'm not giving you a story, 8 why should I? He said, I'm from the Globe and Mail. I 9 said, So. 10 And he said this is a real important 11 paper, you know, it's a real good paper. You'll get a 12 lot of coverage. But this guy, he was -- I can describe 13 him. He was a tall slim man, he looked like more like a 14 policeman or a soldier. He was -- he stood straight and 15 tall and he had grey hair, well dressed, and he seemed 16 like he was a really important person. 17 Like -- and I just didn't like his 18 attitude about -- just about how he asked us about a 19 story. 20 Q: Okay. And -- 21 A: Then when I talked -- do you want me 22 to answer -- answer -- 23 Q: Yeah, please continue, Mrs. Manning. 24 A: Okay. So, now see I lost my train of 25 thought when you're getting -- when you're interfering

1 with my answer. So, now I got to think about it. 2 So, he said -- he got upset too. Which, 3 you know, if you're upset and you're going to get 4 somebody else upset. So, when -- when I got upset, I -- 5 I made him upset. So, he said, So what are you going to 6 do on -- come Monday when the special police move in? 7 And I said, Oh, the special police are 8 moving in? He said, Yes they are and, you know, what are 9 you going to do then, you know. He was kind of like -- I 10 said, Oh well we'll deal with it when -- when Monday 11 comes I guess. 12 And I said, Well we'll see you. And he 13 left. And as soon as he -- as soon as he left we said, 14 Well I guess we'll have to go in sooner than we had 15 expected to go in. I said, We'll have to go in on 16 Saturday. 17 And the reason I remember that, I said, 18 We'll go in at 12:30 because I have to do my yard-sailing 19 first. I have a -- I have a booth at the flea market 20 then. I had it then and I still do. And my yard-sailing 21 -- my job came first. That's the way I was helping with 22 things I was doing. 23 And we said -- we planned it then. It was 24 that quick. We were, one minute we were laughing and 25 carefree and everything, the next minute we were planning

1 to go into the built-up area. So, I said, We'll go in at 2 12:30 because everybody will have had their lunch and 3 they won't even expect us. They'll be sitting back -- 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: -- and patting their bellies and 6 saying, What a good meal we just had. So we said okay. 7 So, we hurried around and that was Maynard and Jan and -- 8 Maynard wasn't there but we got a hold of people that 9 went -- went in with us the first time. 10 Q: If I could just ask you -- I am sorry 11 to interrupt, Mrs. Manning, but just to go back to your 12 conversation with -- that you described with the man from 13 the Globe and Mail. 14 When he said, "Special Police moving in", 15 did you take that to mean special police moving into the 16 army camp -- 17 A: The built-up area. 18 Q: -- to the built-up area? And for 19 what purpose did you understand they would be doing that? 20 A: Well, I never asked them any 21 questions. I didn't want to give them a story and I'm 22 sure he wasn't going to give me any. He just said, 23 Special police. And I just figured, well, the police 24 would just slowly oust us out of there -- 25 Q: Hmm hmm.

1 A: -- if they came. And, like, they 2 would be right beside us. It was hard to live with Army 3 personnel when they were there, because they were 4 continually flying overhead with their helicopters -- 5 Q: Right. 6 A: -- or shooting around there and... 7 Q: Did you understand that the special 8 police would be moving in specifically to deal with -- 9 A: Monday they were supposed to be in 10 there on Monday -- 11 Q: If I -- 12 A: -- Sunday or Monday. 13 Q: If I could finish the question, I'm 14 sorry. 15 A: Sure, okay. Sorry. 16 Q: And did you take -- did you believe 17 that the Special -- as a result of this conversation, did 18 you believe the Special Police would be moving in 19 specifically to deal with the occupiers or that they 20 would be moving in for some other purpose? Or did you 21 have a belief about that? 22 A: What do you think? Why would they 23 move in next to us? 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: Were they there to see that no harm

1 came to us? 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: Or why would they be moving in next 4 to us? 5 Q: Hmm hmm. 6 A: They were moving in next to us 7 because they wanted to oust us out of there. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: That's the only reason that I... 10 Q: Okay. So, you had described the -- 11 you had begun to describe when I interrupted you, the 12 planning that went into moving into the built-up area 13 involving Maynard T. George and Janet Cloud, I believe? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: And Nellie Rogers and there was just 17 a few of us. There wasn't too many men, there was just 18 mostly women and children. 19 Q: Hmm hmm. 20 A: And Melva and her family, like, Melva 21 and Marcia, Glenn and Bert and Erica... 22 Q: By Melva you mean Melva George; 23 Marcia, you mean Marcia -- 24 A: George, yes. 25 Q: Manning, sorry, Simon. And Bert, you

1 mean Bert Manning? 2 A: Marcia Simon -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- was her -- her name. 5 Q: That's right. 6 A: And, yes, we had got in contact with 7 them and they said, Sure, we'll help you and there wasn't 8 too many cars, there was mostly... 9 Q: Okay. So, you -- you had mentioned 10 earlier that you wanted to go yard-sailing prior to 11 going -- 12 A: I did go. I said, I'm going -- I'm 13 not -- I'm not going into -- in there until I go yard 14 sailing -- 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: -- because I said, Right after I go 17 yard sailing we'll go in and everybody should be gathered 18 here and I said, You -- you call whoever you want -- you 19 need to call to come and help us and so... 20 Q: So, what happened when you got back 21 from yard-sailing? 22 A: We went directly to the beach and met 23 there. 24 Q: Okay. About, roughly, how many 25 people met there, if you can recall?

1 A: You know, I don't really know. 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: There was -- when you see them 4 running around, there's quite a -- quite a few, but they 5 were mostly children. They were my -- well, there were 6 some of my children, but mostly all my grandchildren. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: And they were on the -- I'm getting 9 ahead of myself here -- and so we gathered at the beach, 10 all the people that was going to participate and there 11 was people there. 12 I said, We're going into the Army -- Army 13 barracks and I said, Whoever wants to go, you have to -- 14 you have -- you either have to stay or you can go home to 15 Kettle Point. And one (1) guy, he said, you know, he was 16 -- he was such a staunch Stoney Pointer, I'll never -- 17 I'll help you right until the end and he said, Oh, gosh, 18 I got fines on me, I got something on me, he says, and he 19 jumps into his car had he -- he says, I got to load my 20 boat up and -- and he loaded his boat on his little 21 trailer and it was kind of bumpy. 22 And the way you see this guy going and his 23 old trailer's just shaking the old boat. You thought it 24 was going to fall off his trailer; that's how fast he -- 25 he left.

1 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: He wasn't going to have nothing to do 3 with it whatsoever. 4 Q: And who was that? 5 A: I don't think I should say his name. 6 He was just a young fellow and he didn't want to get 7 involved with -- 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: -- going in to the -- he said, I 10 don't want to go there, I'm not going to get hurt or 11 anything. He said, I'm going home and I said, well if 12 you go home, I don't want you to tell nobody for at least 13 an hour. 14 I said, Give us an hour and don't tell a 15 soul. He said, I can do that. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: And so -- so there's other people I 18 left, but I couldn't remember him, because of this -- how 19 fast he went in this old boneshaker and making a heck of 20 a racket. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: So we just kind of had a quick plan 23 there, as to who was going to go in the cars and who was 24 going to take the back and who was going to take the 25 side.

1 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: And I -- I wasn't the only one that 3 was planning that. I was -- but I was there. 4 Q: Okay, and who else was planning that 5 with you? 6 A: All different people that were there. 7 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 8 A: I think Glenn, he -- he took the -- 9 he come round the back, there was Glenn and -- and Marcia 10 and her mother and my son Bert and -- and his woman. 11 They -- they come around the back on the Moses Hill ways- 12 Q: Hmm hmm. 13 A: And -- and the -- the bus went in on 14 the side and it was full of children and a lot of my 15 grandchildren. 16 Q: And if we could just -- 17 A: And there was adults. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: I was the first -- I was in the first 20 car and the next car was my car. It was full of people 21 and I think it was Janet's car with all her people and 22 Nellie -- Nellie -- Nellie Cloud, I think her name was -- 23 Q: Nellie Rogers? 24 A: Yes, Nellie Rogers. Well, her name 25 used to be Cloud.

1 Q: Okay. 2 A: So, and it was all just the older -- 3 older people, like maybe the youngest one was Bruce. He 4 -- Bruce and Maynard. 5 Q: Okay, and did the -- if you can turn 6 to Exhibit P-40 on the screen behind you and with your 7 pointer, point out the route that you took as you entered 8 the built up area or entered the -- left the beach. 9 A: I don't under -- I don't understand 10 your map here. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Now, which is the -- I wonder how you 13 turn -- now, that's not the one I -- that's my own -- 14 don't know how to turn on. 15 Okay, is that it? 16 Q: Yes. 17 A: And is this the -- the beach? 18 Q: Yes, the -- the lake is up on that 19 map. 20 A: This is -- this is the -- the beach 21 itself; right in here? 22 Q: Hmm hmm, yes, well -- 23 A: And this here -- oh... 24 Q: My Friend has indicated where the 25 beach is the line going across the top of the map on

1 Exhibit P-40. 2 A: Oh, right up there? 3 Q: Yes. 4 A: That's the beach? 5 Q: Yeah. 6 A: And that's the water beyond? 7 Q: That's right. 8 A: So, okay then, there's this road, so 9 we were about in here, this kind of comes in. Is this -- 10 Q: Yeah. 11 A: Around in here and we came down the - 12 Q: Okay. and for the record, you are 13 pointing out -- 14 A: -- be on the Matheson -- 15 Q: -- the -- 16 A: -- is this Matheson Drive? 17 Q: That's right, at -- 18 A: Okay, well we came down -- 19 Q: -- the -- 20 A: -- Matheson Drive -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: -- and right down to the -- 23 Q: Okay, and for the record you're 24 indicating -- 25 A: Right to the -- is this the Army camp

1 -- the built up area? 2 Q: That's right. 3 A: And the -- what-you-call-it, should 4 be right about in there. 5 Q: And by what-you-call-it, do you 6 mean -- 7 A: The gate. 8 Q: The gate? 9 A: The gate itself where they -- where 10 there was people manning the gate. 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: That's -- that's where I went into is 13 in that area there. 14 Q: Okay. And did you -- did -- and what 15 was the order of the vehicles that proceeded? 16 A: Well, I came in with my son Bruce. 17 Q: Okay. And -- and were you ahead of 18 the -- the other vehicles or? 19 A: Yes, we were the first vehicle in and 20 we were the first people to go in and say like -- we went 21 into this -- that little -- that little guard shack, I 22 guess they called it. 23 Q: Okay. And we understand from other 24 witnesses or some other witnesses have testified that the 25 school bus actually went in first.

1 But your recollection is that your cars 2 went in first? 3 A: No. My car -- our car went in first. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: And I -- I know it did because we 6 were watching that bus because it had our grandchil -- it 7 had my grandchildren in it. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: And I went in -- I was in -- I was 10 there where the, you know, I was right there with those - 11 - they were watching our kids, and my kids -- I think the 12 world of my kids and -- but they wanted to be there too. 13 Q: Hmm hmm. So -- 14 A: And my car was the next car. Like I 15 road in Bruce's car and my next car was my own car which 16 was also full. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: And -- and when we stopped I think 19 Bruce lifted the gate -- no, I lifted the gate and Bruce 20 and Maynard, he must have jumped out of his car and they 21 went in together to serve -- 22 Q: Into the guard shack? 23 A: -- to serve the eviction notice. And 24 I have a picture of that on -- on that tape I showed 25 you --

1 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- of them serving those papers to 3 the people at the gate. 4 Q: Yeah. I'm sorry, I don't recall 5 that. 6 A: You don't recall that? Well, I have 7 that tape and I showed it to you. Maybe you weren't -- 8 you were thinking how you were going to get a story from 9 me. So you didn't -- you weren't really paying attention 10 to that. 11 But I do have that tape with that -- with 12 him taking this picture. 13 Q: Okay. And what happened next? 14 A: Oh. Then the rest -- the rest of the 15 cars all went in while they were talking to the people in 16 that main gate. And they went right for the -- for the 17 bus. 18 Q: Okay. And so you were at the -- 19 A: Well, I -- I was at the main gate 20 still but the rest of the people went in and Nellie 21 Rogers, she drove back. She said, Rose, they're fighting 22 with our kids. So I jumped in with her and by the time I 23 got there it was pretty well kind of over with. 24 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. And so what did you 25 do? You proceeded then to -- to what area of the built-

1 up area? 2 A: Well, you know, when I -- when I went 3 out there I seen those kids. They were all pepper 4 sprayed and -- and there was a big hullabuloo about 5 getting the kids out. Somebody opened the back gate of 6 the -- no, not the back gate -- the back door to get all 7 the children out. 8 And the guy who was driving, he was all -- 9 he was all pepper sprayed and I think somebody drove him 10 to the beach real quick to -- to, you know, to wash him 11 all off and -- 12 Q: Okay. And who -- who was that that 13 was -- you said that the young man that was driving the 14 bus? 15 A: I think it was Harley. I'm not too 16 sure. I know it was one of the George boys and -- 17 Q: And where was this in the built-up 18 area? 19 A: It was right in front of the drill 20 hall. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: And I know -- I know my -- my 23 grandchild got pepper sprayed too and he was just a 24 little fellow at that time and he said, well I got 25 sprayed accidentally he said. He didn't want to say.

1 Q: Okay. You mentioned your grandchild 2 and he had been -- he was on the bus? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And how old was he at the time? 5 A: I don't really know, he was around 6 six (6) years old, I think. He was just a little -- he 7 was the smallest one there. 8 Q: Okay. And -- 9 A: But there was quite a few kids in 10 that bus and there was a few adults in there; one (1) 11 adult for sure, I know. 12 Q: Okay. You said earlier that things 13 had pretty much settled down by the time you arrived? 14 A: Yeah, well, there were some -- there 15 were some other people there that was -- I made sure that 16 everything went the way it was supposed to. 17 Q: And were those military people or 18 who... 19 A: No, the military people weren't 20 helping us by no means. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: They were trying to detain us or get 23 us out of there and they were trying to attack our -- our 24 children and -- 25 Q: Hmm hmm.

1 A: -- and -- by using pepper spray on 2 them and -- and one (1) of the guys kicked that can out 3 of this guy's hand and there was -- somebody took up some 4 old brooms that were close by and -- and one (1) of my -- 5 one (1) of my daughters, she said, Just drop the brooms 6 and never mind using anything --don't -- and she told 7 them to drop the brooms; they just dropped the brooms 8 wherever. 9 Q: There were still -- how many military 10 personnel were present when you arrive? 11 A: Well, the guy that was in charge, he 12 went with -- he went back with -- that Rob Smith? 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: He went back with us and he -- he 15 told them guys to knock it off and -- and I think that's 16 what he told them and he said, You go back to -- to where 17 you were -- you were -- before this happened. 18 Q: Okay, and who was he talking to? 19 A: To his -- to the -- his fellow 20 officers. 21 Q: Okay, and when you said he went back 22 with you, when -- 23 A: Like, he came from the built-up area 24 -- I mean, from that little shack where I think he lived 25 around close to there.

1 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: And, you know, when this took place 3 they were coming from different places, so he went in and 4 told them they couldn't do that. 5 Q: And, so and how many military 6 personnel were there that he was addressing at the time, 7 if you can recall? 8 A: Oh, gee, it looked like a busload, 9 but they were just some of us too -- they were most of 10 us, but I -- I couldn't tell you many; I didn't stop to 11 count. You know when something's going on, you don't -- 12 you don't look back and say, Well, how many of them are 13 they? 14 You know, I didn't even -- I just know 15 that they weren't really doing anything too much; they 16 weren't using their fists or anything or -- all they were 17 using was that old pepper spray, but they were trying to 18 scare the kids, too. 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: And I know that there was somebody 21 that said that somebody came out of the mess hall and 22 that was -- that wasn't the way the story went either, 23 they didn't go in there and start a machine up and -- and 24 ram the doors with it. 25 Q: Okay. Not when you were present?

1 A: I was present. 2 Q: All right. 3 A: I was present at the time. They put 4 the door up and they brought that machine out to scare 5 the -- to scare the guys away from the kids. 6 Q: And -- 7 A: And -- 8 Q: - what -- what was that machine? 9 What kind of machine was it? 10 A: Forklift. 11 Q: Okay. And it was being driven by 12 military personnel? 13 A: No, I said it -- it was brought out 14 of the -- of this place to -- to -- to kind of scare them 15 so they wouldn't bother -- you know, to -- just so -- 16 instead of going after the little kids, then they would 17 have somebody else to -- to chase around. They were kind 18 of detaining them in a roundabout way. 19 Q: Okay, so, that was driven by a member 20 of your group of the -- of the occupiers? 21 A: Yes, and they didn't go through any 22 doors to -- to -- like they said they did. The door was 23 -- was open. They opened the door and drove it out and 24 just kind of drove it round and when -- when the Rob 25 Smith told everybody he was head man in charge...

1 Q: And can you recall who was driving 2 the fork lift? 3 A: No. 4 Q: All right, and -- 5 A: There was so many people there, so 6 many -- everybody was around -- surround -- everybody was 7 -- the people like came in, like -- like they were coming 8 from all over there now, all gathered round in front of 9 the drill hall and -- 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: -- this Rob Smith said, well, we'll 12 have to have a meeting, so we went to the -- to the 13 church. 14 Q: Okay. And did you on -- later that 15 day, did you attend meetings with members of the 16 military? 17 A: Yes, we did. 18 Q: Okay, and what took place at those 19 meetings? 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 A: Well, they just asked us to gather 24 round at the church. They'd used the church and there 25 wasn't any water there, so they -- for bathroom use, so -

1 - so they had someone come in and -- and they put water 2 and -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- different -- different places so 5 you can use the bathrooms and they brought us water out 6 to drink and they set up tables and chairs and -- 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: -- and while I was in there, I was 9 kind of admired this cross -- 10 Q: Hmm hmm. 11 A: -- and I picked this cross up and it 12 was a huge cross. It was a nice cross and, you know, I 13 was holding that cross while -- while we were having the 14 meetings and I wasn't doing all the talking -- 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: -- I was just sat there, to kind of 17 on the side, and I was hanging on to that cross, and they 18 kept watching me with that cross. 19 Q: Hmm hmm, okay, and -- 20 A: And finally, you know, at the end of 21 the meeting they asked me for that cross. I said, 22 there's no way you're getting my cross. I already laid 23 claim to -- claim to this cross -- 24 Q: Hmm hmm. 25 A: And I figured then they -- they, for

1 some reason, they didn't want to do anything when -- when 2 I was hanging on to that cross and I figured, well, later 3 on I might need that cross, because it seemed to keep 4 them calm for some reason. 5 Q: And -- 6 A: And I left it behind. 7 Q: Okay, and at any point during these 8 meetings were you told to leave the built-up area? 9 A: No, we were never told to leave. 10 They just -- they handed over the keys and told us how to 11 maintain our -- the buildings. 12 They said, we have to keep up the 13 buildings and we were -- that they would be leaving. 14 Q: Okay. And -- 15 A: And they introduced us to the 16 caretakers. 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: They were called in -- 19 Q: Okay. 20 A: Prior to that the media came, and 21 everybody knew we were in -- we were in -- 22 Q: Okay. 23 A: -- in the barracks. And, you know, 24 it was an awful lot -- it was real dusty. I said -- 25 always said, they came in when the dust settled, 'cause

1 we made -- the dust is just -- everybody's all had -- 2 Q: Hmm hmm. 3 A: -- real dusty feet and it was really 4 dusty. So you could say that it was a lot of people came 5 after the dust settled, which was a -- 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: -- wasn't just a saying, it was how 8 it happened, because... 9 Q: Right, and what did you do for the -- 10 for the rest of that day, other than have meetings with 11 the military? 12 Did you enter into any of the buildings in 13 the built-up area? 14 A: Yes, we went to the -- we went to the 15 -- to the mess hall, to the kitchen -- the main kitchen, 16 and that main kitchen was the only one that was -- that 17 was really in use -- 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: All the other kitchens seem to be run 20 down and not -- not in use. There was only the main 21 kitchen and -- 22 Q: Hmm hmm. 23 A: -- the freezers, they were right full 24 of -- full of meat and chicken and fish and whatever you 25 want -- steaks. Oh, those guys they ate a lot of it.

1 So, we went there and some of the women started cooking. 2 And for the first time we had a gourmet 3 meal after -- that same evening. 4 Q: And did you move into a building 5 yourself or take up residence in the built-up area? 6 A: Well, I stayed with Melva for a 7 while. 8 Q: Okay. That's Melva George? 9 A: And Judas said, Well I have a -- I 10 have a place for you to stay so... 11 Q: And by Judas you mean Roderick 12 George? Just for the record. 13 A: What's his name? 14 Q: Roderick George? 15 A: Roderick. 16 Q: Yeah. Who's referred to as Judas 17 commonly, often. 18 A: Oh, okay. Well yes, it was . So, I 19 moved in there because I had a lot of kids. 20 Q: Yeah. Okay. And can you -- 21 A: By -- by kids, I mean my 22 grandchildren. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. And can you identify on the 24 map behind you what building you moved into? The one you 25 were discussing that Mr. George had identified for you?

1 Roderick George or Judas. 2 A: I don't know. Is this the main gate? 3 Q: No. The main gate is actually in the 4 lower lefthand corner, or on the lefthand side there. 5 A: And that's the parade square is it? 6 Q: That's right. 7 A: Okay. Well, it must have been right 8 in here. That was the hospital so it was right in this - 9 - that's the hospital here? 10 Q: Yes. My Friend has pointed out the 11 hospital for you. Was it that building or -- 12 A: Well, I didn't move into the 13 hospital. I moved into that -- there was a -- I guess 14 right in here there was two (2) apartments where the pers 15 -- Army personnel stayed. Somewhere around in -- maybe 16 in here. 17 Q: Okay. And -- 18 A: Maybe right here. I'm not just sure 19 because it was part -- there's the hospital, and this was 20 -- oh, there's a road here. It must be right in here 21 then. 22 Q: All right. And for the record -- 23 A: Right there. 24 Q: -- you're indicating -- I can't see 25 the building number right there. But, there's a paper

1 map in front of you and you may be able to see what 2 building number you're indicating. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Q: That is building number 48 on Exhibit 7 P-41. 8 Okay. And you moved into that building 9 and took up residence? 10 A: Pardon? 11 Q: You -- you moved into that building 12 and took up residence? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And did you move belongings into the 15 building? 16 A: A few. There was already a lot of 17 things in there. 18 Q: Hmm hmm. Okay. A lot of things -- 19 A: There was a washer and dryer and -- 20 and different things in there that the Army left behind. 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: And so the things we needed we 23 acquired afterwards. 24 Q: Okay. All right. And we have heard 25 testimony from other witnesses that -- that at Kettle

1 Point -- the Kettle Point Chief and Council a few days 2 after you moved into the built-up area, so on August 3rd, 3 1995 attempted to deliver a letter or a stack of letters 4 to the people at the Army Camp. 5 We've also heard testimony that you were 6 present when that delivery attempt was made; do you 7 recall that? 8 A: Yes, I do. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: It was -- it was like this binder. 11 It was -- it was just all tied up and it wasn't a letter 12 or -- it was, I think, maybe notices to be handed out. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: But -- 15 Q: Who delivered, or attempted to 16 deliver it? 17 A: It was -- it was -- everybody said it 18 was the chief. It was not the chief, because I was out 19 there and he didn't -- he wasn't the one that delivered 20 them, it was a councillor. 21 Q: Okay. And can you recall which 22 councillor? 23 A: And he --he threw them out of the 24 car, like it's a cab part -- 25 Q: Hmm hmm.

1 A: -- and somebody else grabbed them and 2 threw them back into the truck. So, I never knew what 3 they said or -- because I didn't read any of them. 4 Q: Just to go back, do you recall which 5 councillor attempted to deliver the letters? 6 A: No, I don't, because it was -- he was 7 just on Council a short time -- 8 Q: Hmm hmm. 9 A: He wasn't there for a --he isn't 10 there now or he wasn't there very long. 11 Q: All right. 12 A: And, see, I didn't live in Kettle 13 Point -- 14 Q: Hmm hmm. 15 A: -- and there's a lot of people I 16 didn't know at the time in Kettle Point because I came 17 from Watford area. 18 Q: All right. 19 A: And I never -- I didn't know who the 20 Chief and Council -- I knew them, but I don't -- I didn't 21 know everybody and I still don't know everybody that 22 lives there, even though I've lived there for a while. 23 I'm all constantly asking, Who was that, 24 and -- 25 Q: Okay. And do you recall where this

1 incident took place, the attempted delivery? 2 A: At the main gate. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And there was a lot of kids around 5 there and I just happened to be hanging about there -- 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: And just thinking, and it was -- it 8 was just -- it was just something that happened and I 9 guess they were -- they were delivered to the -- to the 10 gate, whoever's looking after the gate. I know I wasn't 11 looking after it. 12 Q: Okay. And you mentioned that 13 somebody threw the stack of letters into the back of that 14 councillor's truck? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And do you recall who that was that 17 did that? 18 A: It could have been anyone of the -- 19 but there was quite a few young fellows around. 20 Q: Right. And did you -- did you have 21 any conversation with the councillor beyond -- beyond the 22 one that you've described? 23 A: I didn't have any conversation with 24 him. 25 Q: Okay.

1 A: He just said, here's some mail for 2 you or something -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- like that, and I didn't say, Oh, 5 what's that, I'll take it, or nothing. It wasn't -- it 6 happened so fast, that I -- 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: -- I didn't speak to him. He didn't 9 -- that's about all he said was he was delivering -- 10 delivering some mail, so... 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: And I just -- I think the case has 13 done out of it. It's just a spur of the moment thing, 14 like, I don't see -- 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: -- any big deal in it. 17 Q: Okay. And round about this time, 18 actually it was a couple of days earlier on August 1st, 19 1995, Staff Sergeant Bouwman again, his notes refer to 20 some -- a meeting he had. 21 This is -- for the record, it's at Tab 3 22 of the Brief of Documents and it's Document Number 23 2003357. And given our references to it so far, we 24 should probably make this an exhibit. 25

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 Q: And if we could get the next exhibit, 4 yeah? 5 THE REGISTRAR: P-332, your Honour. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 332. 7 8 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-332: Document 2003357 statement of 9 Staff Sergeant K. Bouwman, 10 November 17/'94 11:55 hours 11 to August 05/'95, 10:05 12 hours, re: contacts with 13 people living on CFB 14 Ipperwash 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 17 Q: And for the record, we are only 18 making the first nineteen (19) pages of that document an 19 exhibit. 20 Okay. Staff Sergeant Bouwman describes, 21 and I'll just read it for you, Mrs. Manning. This is at 22 Page 15: 23 "Meeting at CFB main gate, present with 24 Sergeant Wright and Speck. Rose 25 Manning and Glenn George represent

1 First Nations; also Terry George. 2 Talked about fatal MVA." 3 By that I take it -- 4 A: Fatal what? 5 Q: Fatal MVA. I take that to mean, 6 motor vehicle accident. 7 "Glenn George agreed MVA could have 8 been prevented." 9 And then further on, he -- he reports that 10 you stated, it says: 11 "Rose Manning stated the road and the 12 Park was theirs and was never given -- 13 and was never given up by them." 14 A: Excuse me, could I ask you who's the 15 -- who -- where the -- the accident happened or... 16 Q: He doesn't describe that in his -- in 17 his notes, but we have heard from other witnesses 18 including Glenn George that an accident occurred in the - 19 - on the road approaching Army Camp Road approaching 20 Ipperwash Provincial Park some days earlier at the -- at 21 the end of Matheson the night before. 22 A: Oh, I see. Okay, I -- I knew -- I 23 know the people, yeah. 24 Q: Yeah. 25 A: Well, I didn't know the -- I didn't

1 know the -- the -- I didn't know the people, but since 2 then I met this man's wife. 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: I met her in London, this Mandawoub, 5 I think they call him. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: I met his wife in -- in London while 8 she was still alive. 9 Q: Hmm hmm. 10 A: But -- and he was with some Leslie 11 girl, I -- I think. 12 Q: Okay. And you were -- 13 A: And -- 14 Q: You were aware of the -- the motor 15 vehicle accident occurring? 16 A: Yes, I was, because they came in and 17 because -- 18 Q: Hmm hmm. 19 A: -- I guess they knew Bert -- Bert 20 wasn't -- he knew Bert from a long time back and he also 21 knew Glenn. 22 Q: Okay. And do you recall this meeting 23 with Staff Sergeant Bouwman taking place to discuss this? 24 He describes it as occurring at -- at the 25 main gate with a couple of other officers, Wright and

1 Speck, you and -- 2 A: No, I don't believe I was there. 3 That might have been Bert, but I had nothing to do with 4 that. 5 Q: Okay. 6 A: I was -- I was nowhere around. 7 Q: If I could just continue to read 8 his -- 9 A: Sure, go ahead. 10 Q: Okay. 11 "Rose Manning stated the road and the 12 Park was theirs and was never given up 13 by them. Manning again stated the Park 14 was theirs; they never agreed to give 15 up the Park because it contained their 16 cemetery and burial ground. 17 Glenn George told Rose Manning to shut 18 up twice before she finally did, 19 advised them we would not get involved 20 in their land disputes; that was for 21 them to work out." 22 First of all, do you -- do you recall this 23 conversation taking place? 24 A: Why -- why would he tell -- tell me 25 to shut up?

1 Q: Would that be unusual for Glenn 2 George -- 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: -- to speak to you in that manner? 5 And why would that be? 6 A: Because he never -- he never, ever 7 told me to shut up. 8 Q: Okay. 9 A: And likewise, I -- I had enough 10 respect for him to -- to tell him to -- you know, I 11 wouldn't tell him that. 12 Q: Okay. All right. Do you recall 13 stating to Staff Sergeant Bouwman that the road and the 14 Park was yours and was never given up by -- 15 A: No, I never said that, because it was 16 under dispute and -- 17 Q: Hmm hmm. 18 A: -- well, during our research, it was 19 supposingly sold somewhere along the line and I never 20 said -- well, it -- it should belong to us anyway, but -- 21 Q: Hmm hmm. 22 A: -- I never -- I never indicated that 23 it belongs to us, where... 24 Q: Okay, and -- 25 A: But we were using it.

1 Q: So, at that time, you didn't believe 2 that the Park belonged -- belonged to you? 3 A: Well -- 4 Q: Or belonged to your group? 5 A: Well, it was -- no, not at that time. 6 Q: Okay. He also notes -- Staff 7 Sergeant Bouwman, again, on August 3rd at page 18 of the 8 same document: 9 "I met with Captain Smith." 10 I would take that to be the same Captain 11 Smith you referred to earlier. 12 A: Rob Smith? 13 Q: Yeah. 14 "Stated Rose Manning had packed up and 15 loaded up and is supposed to have left 16 CFB." 17 A: Well, I did move all my -- a lot of 18 my belongings then, but I didn't -- I wasn't aware that 19 people were -- that knew I was -- I had my daughter down 20 and she moved a lot of my belongings into my mother's 21 place. 22 Q: Okay. And why did -- 23 A: And that -- 24 Q: -- you do that? 25 A: Because I had intended to move out --

1 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- shortly, because we were -- you 3 know, I have -- I have a life, too -- 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: -- outside of the Army Camp and we 6 were pretty well there just to -- 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: -- we done everything we set out to 9 accomplish. 10 Q: So shortly after you moved into the 11 built-up area, you made plans to move up -- to move out? 12 A: Well, I moved a lot of my things, 13 yes, I did. 14 Q: And did you stay in the built-up area 15 yourself? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: But, I did move a lot of my things 19 out of there -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: -- because -- because my mother's 22 house -- my mother's house is empty and -- 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: -- and there was things that I wanted 25 to protect, like my pictures and --

1 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- documents and different things. 3 Q: Okay. And at this time were you -- 4 did you continue to function as a spokesperson with the 5 media -- 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: having accepted that role? 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 Q: I'm wondering, Mrs. Manning, and Mr. 12 Commissioner, if this might be a good time for a break. 13 Would you like to take a break right now? 14 A: No, I'd like to go on. 15 Q: You'd like to go on? 16 A: I'm just saying -- I see you watching 17 the clock, you must be getting -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think 19 we're going to have to take a break at some time this 20 morning. 21 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, it's a 23 question of when. If this isn't a good time, we can go 24 on a little longer, but if -- 25 THE WITNESS: No, I'm finished.

1 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Hmm hmm. Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You want to 3 continue for a while? 4 THE WITNESS: What time is it? 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's 10:30. 6 THE WITNESS: 10:30? 7 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Yeah. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. After 9 Ms. Hensel finishes, there maybe some other lawyers, may 10 have some questions for you, and that may take some time, 11 so we're going to have to have a break at some point. 12 Would you like to have one now? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 15 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 16 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you, Mr. 17 Commissioner. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 10:32 a.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 10:58 a.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed. Please be seated.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 6 MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: Thank you, 7 Commissioner. 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. KATHERINE HENSEL: 10 Q: Just before we move to the events of 11 September 1995, if I could ask you one (1) final question 12 about your time at Stoney Point. 13 I understand that you and others made many 14 efforts to establish a community there. Can you tell us 15 about those efforts? 16 A: Yes. After we -- we kind of settled 17 down in Stoney Point, then in a while, we -- we had to do 18 something, not just sit around, so, we -- and if -- we 19 had a community gardens -- 20 Q: Hmm hmm. 21 A: -- community garden at the -- right 22 at the main kitchen. 23 Q: Hmm hmm. 24 A: Glenn, he dissed that all up. And we 25 had individual gardens --

1 Q: Hmm hmm. 2 A: -- like anybody that wanted a garden 3 and the seeds were donated from Lifespan (phonetic) in 4 London. And we had -- we formed a baseball game -- team, 5 the Anishnaabeg Wawas (phonetic). 6 And they play -- they went out playing 7 with other teams in Stratford and they come from Arcona I 8 think and Watford. 9 But they were in -- they were doing pretty 10 good. And we had -- we had -- I had contact with this 11 person I used to being I was in the flea market business, 12 so was he. So he had like he would buy -- they would go 13 to auctions and he would buy -- just to get one thing he 14 would get a lot of things. 15 And he would take whatever he wanted and 16 then he has to come by the Reserve and -- and sell tables 17 and chairs and coffee tables and dishes and stuff like 18 that real cheap. 19 And I thought that was pretty good. So, 20 and we had -- we had -- we started a school and we had 21 the nurse and the doctor come in and we had donations of 22 clothing brought to the -- to the building. 23 The kitchen has another room off of it. 24 And we had a telephone there for a short time. And -- 25 and I think you'll see those in the newspapers if anybody

1 that follows the news. But anyway I -- I have clippings 2 of those papers showing those different things that came 3 about in the community. 4 Q: So your intent in doing so was to 5 establish -- 6 A: A community. 7 Q: Hmm hmm. 8 A: Like -- like the one I -- like the 9 one in Kettle Point where they had everything. So we -- 10 just starting to happen. And -- and we had a drum -- we 11 started a drum group of which I'm still part of. 12 This drum group we went to London. We 13 were taught by someone in London who came to -- she came 14 to Kettle Point -- or Stoney Point and we heard her 15 drumming and singing. So we said -- asked her if she 16 could teach us. And she said she could for nothing. 17 The only thing is she couldn't drive so 18 she couldn't come to us. So we went to her. And so the 19 drum group which is called, Ogichadakwe (phonetic) is 20 still in existence since -- since that time they have 21 picked up Natives in London who she teaches still. 22 And this outfit that I'm wearing I usually 23 -- we do openings and closings at different places. And 24 so this-- this is all that took place in Stoney Point. 25 This is where we started and we're still on the go and

1 whenever she has -- we go to jails and the last one I was 2 in was -- where's that jail? I think it's Waterloo, 3 Kitchener and Waterloo area. 4 Q: Hmm hmm. 5 A: And we were invited there to a feast 6 and drumming. So it's just things like that and go to 7 the universities or different places to drum. 8 Q: If we could turn now, Mrs. Manning, 9 to the subject of Ipperwash Provincial Park. We -- you 10 had mentioned earlier that you had -- were aware of some 11 research into the -- the sale of the land that became the 12 Park. 13 Just turning further back, when you were a 14 child were -- were you told anything about the transfer 15 of that land, the -- the land that later became Ipperwash 16 Provincial Park? 17 A: Well, I think -- no, I don't -- I 18 can't say that I -- I recall. Well, in a way, I -- I do, 19 but in a way, I -- I can't really say for positively sure 20 I did hear -- hear, but I don't know what. You know, 21 they -- they moved that -- the Park used to be further to 22 the west than where it is now. Where the Park is now, 23 that wasn't always there, it was further -- further to 24 the west. 25 Q: And that's what you can recall from

1 when you were a child? 2 A: That's what I can recall. I'm saying 3 that -- and, but there was burial grounds in the Park. 4 Q: And when you were a -- 5 A: And my -- my father he was -- like I 6 said yesterday, he was the Chief and a councillor there 7 and continued to be a councillor in Kettle Point and he 8 said, when I was looking in the archives, that was -- I 9 was in with the negotiating team for a while and we 10 looked in some archives and they have those -- all -- all 11 those books and it's got Stoney Point and it's strictly 12 all Stoney Point stuff. 13 And I recall seeing my dad's name in 14 several places and he was saying, We have to have the -- 15 that burial ground fenced in. 16 Q: And he -- 17 A: He seemed to know where -- exactly 18 where the burial ground was because he wanted it fenced 19 in separate from the -- the Park because they were -- you 20 know, they were desecrating that -- that burial ground 21 also by, you know, they lived there, they had their dance 22 there, they -- whatever they done, you know, they were -- 23 you know, when you -- when you go camping, it's -- they 24 camped there right on our burial ground after the -- 25 after the Park was established there.

1 Q: And can you recall any -- any 2 conversations in your family when you were younger about 3 burial grounds in the Park? 4 A: Yes, I could. They always talked 5 about different ways that people were buried. 6 Q: Hmm hmm. 7 A: Because I guess it was kind of 8 different to the way they -- they buried their dead back 9 then because they said there some people that were facing 10 west and they were sitting down and they put all their -- 11 put all their belongings in with them and -- and there -- 12 there were some that -- that were all bundled up like -- 13 and they were put in there and -- and they buried them 14 with all their -- what they needed for their travel and I 15 think there were some -- somebody said there was somebody 16 that was burnt and -- and buried also. 17 But that was the people that were 18 travelling through, this wasn't from the -- from our 19 Camp, itself -- I mean, from our home itself, because we 20 had our own separate burial ground and -- but this was 21 supposed to be the visitors that would stop in and -- and 22 they would stop in for flint -- trade for flint or 23 something else or. 24 And flint, in them days, we never had no 25 matches, so, you know, when you -- when you strike the

1 flint with a striker, it'll make a fire. And -- and this 2 is very necessary for the other Natives to have that 3 flint, so they always stopped there because there's a 4 large flint bed in Stoney Point and there's also a flint 5 bed in Kettle Point. 6 Q: And were you aware of the location of 7 any burial sites in the Park? 8 A: Was I aware? 9 Q: Personally aware? 10 A: No, I wasn't. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Because I went looking for -- 13 Q: Hmm hmm. 14 A: I went looking for those burial -- 15 you know, for seeing if I could find them myself, but I - 16 Q: Hmm hmm. 17 A: There was like little indents, like, 18 where the ground had sunk in, but I was just wondering 19 were those the burial grounds and -- but I don't know if 20 they were or if they weren't, so I don't -- I'm not an 21 archeologist, so... 22 Q: Okay, and were you aware, growing up, 23 of any irregularities or were you told -- were there any 24 concerns in your family about the transfer of that land 25 that later became Ipperwash Provincial Park?

1 A: No, nobody seemed to be overly 2 concerned about -- 3 Q: Hmm hmm. 4 A: -- about it, because it wasn't their 5 property. 6 Q: Okay. Okay, now turning now to the 7 events of September 1995, were you aware of any planning 8 prior -- we understand from other witnesses that people 9 went into the Park on September 4th, 1995. 10 Were you aware of any planning about going 11 into the Park prior to that date? 12 A: Well, I wasn't -- I wasn't in on the 13 planning, no, it just -- I don't think, no -- no-one -- 14 no-one was planning to move in. 15 Q: Hmm hmm. 16 A: And to my knowledge, anyway, I was -- 17 if there was, I wasn't -- I wasn't aware of it. But it 18 just -- things happened, like the last day of the -- of 19 the what you call -- they were supposed to leave at a 20 certain time. 21 Q: Labour Day weekend or -- 22 A: Yes. But they seemed to linger on 23 and they start harassing people on the -- on the -- on 24 our side of the fence. 25 Q: Hmm hmm.

1 A: And they were trying to lay charges 2 on people. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: And -- or they did. 5 Q: Okay, if we could just back up a 6 little bit. 7 Were you present when people first went 8 into the Park on that day, on September 4th, 1995? 9 A: No, I was not -- not -- not when they 10 went in, because -- 11 Q: Hmm hmm. 12 A: -- there was Les Jewel, he was 13 talking to some people. He said, we should just go right 14 in there, and I said, well, you shouldn't. 15 And -- because they were harassing the 16 people on our side -- our side of the fence. 17 Q: And by "they" -- 18 A: And I -- the police and, you know, 19 they always kept their word, they always stayed on their 20 own side and we stayed on our own side and -- and they 21 said that they should go in. 22 Q: And -- 23 A: But there was no planning, I think -- 24 I think we just set up. I don't think nobody said, okay, 25 now we're going to go in over the other side and how

1 shall we do this and what is the -- what can -- what will 2 we do. 3 I don't think there was anything like 4 that. It just -- 'cause I -- it could have been -- could 5 have been, somebody else might have done it, but I don't 6 -- I wasn't aware of it. 7 Q: Okay, and the comments that you 8 attributed earlier to Les Jewel, were you -- were you 9 present when he -- when he said that? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Okay, thank you. Okay, so how did 12 you eventually on September 4th, I take it, you did go to 13 Ipperwash Provincial Park? 14 A: Yes, I did. 15 Q: Hmm hmm, and how did you get there? 16 A: I drove in. 17 Q: Okay. 18 A: There's a -- the gate was open and I 19 kind of under -- the way I understood it, I thought they 20 were -- somebody kind of left them open and they were 21 just -- the gates were just pulled aside, but I'm not 100 22 percent sure. 23 Q: And -- 24 A: Of -- but I just -- I know they were 25 -- there was no struggle to get in there, and I just

1 drove in and just to show support. 2 Q: Okay. 3 A: But I didn't -- I didn't -- I just 4 stayed long enough to get myself charged. 5 Q: And we'll come to that. You said 6 "show support" and -- who did show support for whom when 7 you said "show support"? 8 A: For the people that were already in 9 there. 10 Q: Okay. So when you arrived there were 11 people already inside the Park? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Okay. And we have heard from many 14 other witnesses about an incident involving Roderick 15 George who -- whom you referred to as Judas, and OPP 16 officers in the Park on that day. 17 Were you present for that? 18 A: Yes, I was. Like they had I think 19 three (3) police cruisers there. And I think his name is 20 George Speck. I know his last name is Speck. But I told 21 him -- I just told him the party's getting kind of rough, 22 why in the heck don't you get out of here. 23 He said, we -- we can't, there's no way -- 24 there's no way out. I said you can just go over that, 25 what do you call those curbs -- those curbs. He said,

1 we'll damage the car. I said you'll damage your car I 2 said, it's not even your cars. I said it belongs to the 3 government. I'm sure they'll get you another one. 4 And I said just go over the curb and 5 leave. And while I was up there talking, Bert come along 6 too and he was almost saying, you know, just leave the 7 way she told you to leave. 8 And Roderick come along. He -- I think he 9 thought I was having a big dispute with this policeman. 10 And he hit the car and I'll say his car moved pretty fast 11 after that. He jumped that curb and so did the rest of 12 them. He just hollered at them and -- and they all got 13 in their cars and left and went over the curb so... 14 So that's -- he -- because I was talking 15 to him he -- he knew who I was and who Bert was and so it 16 resulted that we were charged with, I don't know what it 17 was now. I thought it was trespassing, it must have been 18 something else I was