1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 6th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )    (np)
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein )            The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )   (np)     George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )            Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    )            Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )              Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )   (np)       Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )              Aazhoodena  (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )   (np)       Kettle Point & Stony
 20  Jonathon George  )              Point First Nation
 21  Colleen Johnson  )   (np)
 22  
 23  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 24  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 25  Susan Freeborn   )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Ian Smith        )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (np)
 11  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 12  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 13  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 14  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 15  
 16  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 17  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 18  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 19  
 20  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 21  Karen Jones      )              Police Association &
 22  Debra Newell     )   (np)       K. Deane
 23  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
 24  Annie Leeks      )   (np)
 25

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  Clem Nabigon     )   (np)
  7  Adriel Weaver     )   (np)       Student-at-Law
  8  
  9  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
 10  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 11  
 12  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 13  Matthew Horner   )
 14  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 15  
 16  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 17  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 18  Megan Mackey     )
 19  
 20  David Roebuck    )   (Np)       Debbie Hutton
 21  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 22  Melissa Panjer   )
 23  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 LAYTON HARLEY ELIJAH, Resumed 6 Cross-Examination by Ms. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 10 7 Cross-Examination by Ms. Karen Jones 71 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Kevin Scullion 157 9 Re-Direct Examination by Ms. Susan Vella 161 10 11 ROSE MANNING, Sworn: 12 Examination-in-Chief by Ms. Katherine Hensel 175 13 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 267 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-324 Document 1002556, October 15/'95 4 Transcript re: Anticipated evidence 5 of Robert Isaac, Document date: 1995- 6 01-12. 8 7 P-325 Document 1004590, Transcript re: 8 Anticipated evidence of Robert Isaac, 9 Document date: 1995-09-09 9 10 P-326 Document 2000961, 04 June 1956 Arrest 11 package of Isaac, Robert, Plan - Task 12 Force Project Maple 10 13 P-327 CD of phone call generated from an audio 14 tape September 07/'95 04:20 hours. 34 15 P-328 Xerox copy of audio cassette tape marked 16 07 September, '95 0420 hours, Number 3 17 u/k caller 35 18 P-329 Document 3000150 Hurontario telephones 19 Ltd. Long distance billing log identifying 20 "native use" Document date 1995-08-17 155 21 P-330 Document 1001822 follow-up report from 22 SIU, October 31/'95 submitted by Don 23 Miller re: A meeting October 24/'95, 24 SIU file No. 95-PFD-130 167 25

1 LIST OF EXHIBITS (cont'd) 2 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 3 P-331 Document 1001816 SIU follow-up report 4 submitted by Jim Kennedy February 12, 5 '96 SIU File Number 95-PFD-130. 169 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:02 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 11 morning. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Just before we resume 13 with the cross-examination of Mr. Elijah, I wish to 14 tender three (3) documents into evidence, relevant to 15 Robert Isaac. 16 The first document is the SIU state -- 17 interview conducted October 12, 1995. It's entitled 18 "Anticipated Evidence of Robert Isaac" and it's Inquiry 19 Document Number 1002556. That could be the next exhibit 20 please. 21 THE REGISTRAR: P-324, Your Honour. 22 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: 324. 23 24 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-324: Document 1002556, October 25 15/'95 Transcript re:

1 Anticipated evidence 2 of Robert Isaac, Document 3 date: 1995-01-12. 4 5 MS. SUSAN VELLA: The second document is 6 a further SIU interview conducted of Mr. Isaac on 7 September 9th, 1997 entitled "Anticipated Evidence of 8 Robert Allan Isaac." It's Inquiry Document Number 9 10044590. 10 That would be the next exhibit please. 11 THE REGISTRAR: P-325 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P:-325. 13 14 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-325: Document 1004590, Transcript 15 re: Anticipated evidence of 16 Robert Isaac, Document date: 17 1995-09-09 18 19 MS. SUSAN VELLA: And the final document 20 is a document which is entitled "Arrest Package," Inquiry 21 Document Number 2000961, if that could be the next 22 exhibit please. 23 THE REGISTRAR: P-326, Your Honour. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-326. 25

1 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-326: Document 2000961, 04 June 2 1956 Arrest package of Isaac, 3 Robert, Plan - Task Force 4 Project Maple 5 6 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you very much. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 8 very much. 9 We now will continue with the cross- 10 examination of Mr. Elijah I believe. Andrea Tuck-Jackson 11 and Karen Jones are still left to cross-examine. Good 12 morning, Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 13 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Good morning, 14 Mr. Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I understand 16 you anticipate approximately forty-five (45) minutes, is 17 that correct? 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: That's correct, 19 sir. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 21 22 LAYTON HARLEY ELIJAH, Resumed: 23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 25 Q: Good morning, Mr. Elijah.

1 A: Good morning, sibowee (phonetic). 2 Q: Sir, my name is Andrea Tuck-Jackson. 3 I'm going to ask you some questions on behalf of the OPP. 4 A: That's good. 5 Q: You told us yesterday, sir, that you 6 spoke with Doug Babbitt late on September the 6th and 7 during the early morning hours of September the 7th, 8 1995, do I have that correct? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And you understood Doug Babbitt to be 11 an officer with the OPP? 12 A: Yes, Doug Babbitt, OPP. 13 Q: Yes. And I trust that you are quite 14 certain, sir, as you told us yesterday that there were 15 three (3) calls that you had with Sergeant Babbitt? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And as I understand it, sir, that 18 first call was made by you sometime close to 11:00 p.m.? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the last call that you made was 21 made some time between 12:30 and one o'clock a.m. the 22 following day? 23 A: That could be real close. 24 Q: All right. And -- and I also 25 understand that the second call, obviously was made

1 sometime between, say, eleven o'clock or -- and one 2 o'clock in the morning, but could you tell us again how 3 close the second call was to the first call? 4 A: I'd say about fifteen (15) to twenty 5 (20) minutes because the first call from the Park and the 6 second call was about four (4) to five (5) minutes apart 7 and I called right after that. 8 Q: All right. And I trust, sir, that 9 you are also quite certain that in the first call you had 10 with Officer Babbitt, you demanded to know the name of 11 the officer who was in charge of the Ipperwash operation? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And it was during that first call 14 that you first learned of the name, "John Carson?" 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And, of course, it was Doug Babbitt 17 who provided you with that name? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And as I understand your evidence, 20 sir, from yesterday you're quite certain that in one (1) 21 or more of the calls, Doug Babbitt conveyed to you that 22 John Carson was out in the field cleaning up? 23 A: In the third call. 24 Q: It was the third call? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: All right. So, in the call that 2 occurred, according to your evidence, sometime between 3 12:30 and a.m., Doug Babbitt conveyed to you that John 4 Carson was in the field cleaning up? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what did you understand that to 7 mean, sir? 8 A: Just getting these men out of there, 9 getting these vehicles, whatever. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Cleaning up. 12 Q: You weren't suggesting that Officer 13 Carson was in any way trying to tamper with the crime 14 scene? 15 A: No, I don't think they could see that 16 much, not at that time of the morning 17 Q: Okay. And I gather, sir, again from 18 your evidence from yesterday that you're quite certain 19 that in one (1) or more of the calls Doug Babbitt 20 conveyed to you that John Carson was taking orders from 21 someone? 22 A: It wasn't the first call, I think it 23 was the second call when I -- I -- he kept asking who I 24 was and then he asked me why and I said I just want to 25 know your name because I'm going to be charging you with

1 murder in the morning. And he just went right -- right 2 away right -- just defending himself saying, No, sir, 3 it's not me you want, it's John Carson. 4 Q: But I understood you to be saying 5 something different and you can correct me if I'm wrong, 6 I understood you to have alleged yesterday that Doug 7 Babbitt told you that John Carson was taking orders from 8 someone? 9 A: Yes, on the third call. 10 Q: On the third call? And that you were 11 led to believe or you inferred, perhaps, is a better way 12 of putting it that that person was Premier Harris? 13 A: That was Your Friend over here that's 14 putting the words in my mouth, I just agreed with him. 15 Q: Well, sir -- 16 A: I never asked who he takes orders 17 from. 18 Q: All right. You just understood that 19 he was taking orders from someone? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: All right. And as I also 22 understand your evidence, sir, you are -- you are quite 23 certain that Doug Babbitt told you that the officers 24 involved in the incident were simply shooting over the 25 heads of the occupiers?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Now I'm interested, sir, in knowing a 3 little bit more of the tone that Officer Babbitt used 4 with you. 5 A: He was -- he was nice. 6 Q: He was nice? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: So he was not dismissive of you, in 9 any way? 10 A: No. Not until the third call. 11 Q: Pardon? 12 A: Not until the third call. 13 Q: All right. All right, that's good 14 because I want to clarify whether there was any change in 15 his tone. 16 A: No, not in the first two (2). 17 Everything was normal right until -- because he kept 18 saying, as far as he knew nobody was hit, shot whatever. 19 Q: I'm sorry, he said what? 20 A: That as far as he knew, nobody was 21 shot. And I kept telling him there was. And then when 22 the murder part came up, he just changed altogether. 23 Q: And tell me, sir, in the third call, 24 which as you've told us took place some time between 25 12:30 and 1:00 a.m., how did that tone or that approach

1 on the part of Doug Babbitt change? 2 A: He started blaming the Indians for 3 shooting first. He hung up, he wouldn't want to -- see, 4 when I got done talking to him -- I talked normal to him 5 like I'm talking to you. 6 Q: You weren't upset in any way? 7 A: No. 8 Q: No. You used a very calm tone? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: You didn't use any strong language? 11 A: No. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: But see someone grabbed the phone 14 from me. 15 Q: Right. 16 A: And he was a relation to one (1) of 17 the guys in the Camp and he started talking strong 18 language. 19 Q: I see. 20 A: And I think he got it back and then 21 they just disconnected, hung up. 22 Q: Okay. Is it your evidence, sir, that 23 at no time during these three (3) calls, did Doug Babbitt 24 demonstrate or convey any sympathy towards the situation? 25 A: No.

1 Q: So he never conveyed any sympathy? 2 A: No, I was surprised. 3 Q: Okay. And is it your evidence, sir, 4 that Officer Babbitt never raised the topic of 5 negotiation or opening up a dialogue with the people at 6 the Park? 7 A: No, I don't think so. 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Mr. 9 Commissioner, I can indicate, sir, that it is my intent 10 now to play for Mr. Elijah a telephone call. And I wish 11 you to know, sir, that the context of how these calls 12 were recorded. 13 I anticipate you're going to hear evidence 14 from Doug Babbitt that he and a colleague by the name of 15 Jacques Arseneau were at the media centre that was posted 16 to the Pinery Park in the early evening of September the 17 6th. 18 And I anticipate, sir, that you're going 19 to hear that while a more highly technological system of 20 a Logger tape recording system was not used, they were 21 recording as many calls as they could as they were coming 22 in with a much lower tech system. They had, in effect, 23 something you'd find at Radio Shack, hooked up to the 24 telephone to record calls. 25 And I anticipate, sir, that you're going

1 to hear that as the evening struck the hour closer to the 2 incident in question and information was becoming 3 apparent in the community that there was something of 4 concern, they were flooded with telephone calls. And 5 they were not able to always change the tape such as to 6 preserve a complete record of all the calls that were 7 coming in. 8 I anticipate, sir, that you're going to 9 hear that the phone call that we're about to hear came in 10 at around 4:10 or 4:20 a.m. on September the 7th, 1995. 11 And I anticipate you're going to hear that 12 the call caused the officer sufficient concern that 13 immediately thereafter he called the command centre. And 14 I'm going to actually play that for you, sir, as well, so 15 that you have some evidentiary foundation for the timing 16 of the first call. 17 And I anticipate you'll hear, sir, from 18 Officer Babbitt that this was the only call of its 19 nature. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: The only 21 call that they recorded; is that what you're saying? 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: No, -- and of 23 its nature according to his recollection. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Is our 2 technology up for this? 3 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I never know 'til I 4 press the button. 5 6 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYING) 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 9 Q: Now, sir, you're hearing a voice, do 10 you recognize that voice? 11 A: Yes, I do. 12 Q: Whose voice is that, sir? 13 A: That's one (1) of the relations to 14 the guys in that Park, that wasn't me. 15 Q: That's not you? 16 A: No, it isn't. It's far from me. 17 Q: You were present for the phone call? 18 A: Not that one. 19 Q: So, what you're saying, sir, is that 20 this isn't the phone call... 21 A: That I had, no. 22 Q: Okay. Mr. Commissioner, because it 23 is relevant to credibility, I would ask that we continue 24 to play the phone call. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How long is

1 it? 2 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: About five (5) 3 minutes, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, let's 5 hear the end of it. 6 7 (AUDIO TAPE PLAYING) 8 9 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 10 Q: Now, sir, you've had an opportunity 11 to listen to it. 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: And it certainly will be up to Mr. 14 Commissioner to -- to determine whether, indeed, it -- it 15 is your voice. 16 A: Oh, no problem. 17 Q: But what you're telling me, sir, is 18 that the voice that we're hearing on the tape, you're 19 claiming that's not your voice? 20 A: Absolutely not. 21 Q: Okay. Do you recognize the voice of 22 the other male captured on the tape? 23 A: The OPP? 24 Q: Yes. 25 A: No.

1 Q: Do you -- can you tell us whether or 2 not that sounds -- and I appreciate it's a long time ago 3 -- can you tell us, sir, whether or not that sounds like 4 the man that you were speaking to or is it just too long 5 to tell? 6 A: It's probably too long to tell. No, 7 I can't tell. 8 Q: All right. You told us, sir, that in 9 the phone call that you claim occurred between say, 12:30 10 and 1:00 a.m. that Officer Babbitt's tone changed with 11 you? 12 A: I never said that. 13 Q: I thought, sir, that you testified 14 earlier this morning that in the third phone call 15 Officer -- 16 A: In the third phone call -- 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: -- I talked normal, he talked normal. 19 When the other guy took the phone -- 20 Q: No, sir, I -- 21 A: Yes, ma'am. 22 Q: Sir, was your testimony this 23 morning -- 24 A: Back it up. 25 Q: Was your testimony this morning -�

1 A: Back it up. 2 Q: Was your testimony this morning that 3 the tone by Officer Babbitt was very polite in the first 4 two (2) calls but that his tone and approach changed in 5 the third call with you? 6 A: Yeah, oh, with me. Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, I'm not 8 sure that he said that. I -- I'm not sure that that's 9 what he said. It think this is important, better get 10 what he said. 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I do want to 12 clarify then -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We better 14 get what he said then, can we get the exact -- 15 16 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA-JACKSON: 17 Q: I appreciate, sir, that you're 18 claiming that another man got on the phone and that he 19 was not terribly polite to Officer Babbitt. 20 Is that your evidence? 21 A: That's my evidence. 22 Q: And is it your evidence, sir, that in 23 response to that man that Officer Babbitt was impolite? 24 A: That's the way I took it, yes. 25 Q: All right. So then, you do agree

1 with me that, during the third phone call, Officer 2 Babbitt's tone changed, whether or not the tone was 3 directed to you or to this other person that you claim 4 got on the phone, your evidence is that the officer's 5 tone changed? 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Ms. 7 Vella? 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Unless this was on a 9 speaker phone, I don't see how this witness can testify 10 as to what the tone was of Officer Babbitt on a phone 11 call or at least for that part of the conversation he 12 wasn't party to. 13 He did say he assumed that the tone must 14 have changed. But I don't think one can go any further 15 than that. It's pure speculation. I assume he -- he's 16 basing that on the tone of the other individual's 17 conversation. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: You are 19 trying to identify what he said earlier. I mean, my 20 recollection was he said that the tone was polite on all 21 three (3) calls. So I'm not sure. We better find out 22 exactly what he said. 23 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I understood 24 him to say that the tone of the officer changed in the 25 third phone call.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: There was a 2 change and that's why I think it's important that we nail 3 down if it's important to you, exactly what -- 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: It is important 5 to me, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So then I 7 think we should -- do we have the evidence of what he 8 said earlier? I'll just see what I wrote down. 9 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I think part of the 10 confusion and perhaps we should read it back. I thought 11 I -- I heard the witness say that the tone changed and 12 then he went on to expand as to what he meant by that -- 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 14 MS. SUSAN VELLA: -- and it had to do 15 with the content of the conversation. And that may be 16 the cause of the confusion. I think that both parties 17 are correct but perhaps we could read back. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: How can we 19 do that? We haven't had to do this before. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Would you like a 24 playback? 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Please? Yeah,

25
  1  let -- let's arrange that please.
  2  
  3                       (BRIEF PAUSE)
  4  
  5                 MS. SUSAN VELLA:   He has to hook it up to
  6  the system --
  7                 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN:   Okay, then
  8  let's just stay where we are.  Let's just stay where we
  9  are.
 10  
 11                        (BRIEF PAUSE)
 12  
 13                 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN:   Should we
 14  take a little longer break and give him a chance to sort
 15  this out?  Okay.  Let's take a little longer break and
 16  give him a chance to sort this out.
 17                 THE REGISTRAR:   This Inquiry will recess
 18  for ten (10) minutes.
 19   
 20  ---Upon recessing at 9:30 a.m.
 21  ---Upon resuming at 9:40 a.m.
 22  
 23                 THE REGISTRAR:   This Inquiry is now
 24  resumed, please be seated. 
 25                 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN:   Thank you.

1 I'm surprised that we haven't been called upon to do this 2 earlier in this Inquiry, so we might as well see if we 3 can do it. 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Well, the 5 technology is marvellous, Mr. Commissioner, and we have 6 queued up that part of Mr. Elijah's testimony in which 7 I'm interested. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes? Just 9 wait for Mr. Elijah to sit down. 10 COURT REPORTER (PLAYBACK): 11 "Q: ...involved in the incident were 12 simply shooting over the heads of the 13 occupiers? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Now I'm interested, sir, in 16 knowing a little bit more of the tone 17 that Officer Babbitt used with you. 18 A: He was -- he was nice. 19 Q: He was nice? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: So he was not dismissive of you, 22 in any way? 23 A: No. Not until the third call. 24 Q: Pardon? 25 A: Not until the third call."

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Until the 2 third call. 3 COURT REPORTER (PLAYBACK): 4 "Q: All right. All right, that's 5 good because I want to clarify whether 6 there was any change in his tone. 7 A: No, not in the first two (2). 8 Everything was normal right until -- 9 because he kept saying, as far as he 10 knew nobody was hit, shot whatever. 11 Q: I'm sorry, he said what? 12 A: That as far as he knew, nobody was 13 shot. And I kept telling him there 14 was. And then when the murder part 15 came up, he just changed altogether. 16 Q: And tell me, sir, in the third 17 call, which as you've told us took 18 place some time between 12:30 and 1:00 19 a.m., how did that tone or that 20 approach on the part of Doug Babbitt 21 change? 22 A: He started blaming the Indians for 23 shooting first. He hung up, he 24 wouldn't want to -- see, when I got 25 done talking to him -- I talked normal

1 to him like I'm talking to you. 2 Q: You weren't upset in any way? 3 A: No. 4 Q: No. You used a very calm tone? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: You didn't use any strong 7 language? 8 A: No. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: But see someone grabbed the phone 11 from me. 12 Q: Right." 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's 14 enough. 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: It is enough. 16 Thank you very much, Mr. Reporter -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 18 very much. 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- for 20 accommodating us. 21 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Now, Mr. 22 Elijah -- 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Just before 24 you start, you have to get back to where you were? Are 25 you right back on the beam?

1 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: He's way ahead 2 of us, Your Honour. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: An 4 incredible system. Okay. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 7 Q: You'd agree, sir, that unlike your 8 claim just a few minutes ago that Officer Babbitt's tone 9 did not change with you, we've just heard, sir, that you 10 indeed testified this morning that his tone with you 11 changed in the third phone call. 12 You now accept that, that's your claim? 13 A: Not with me. I told you in the third 14 phone call I talked just like I'm talking to you right 15 now. When somebody else took the phone, that's a 16 different story. 17 Q: That's your position? That's how 18 you're going to explain to me the apparent inconsistency? 19 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He doesn't 20 know what inconsistency you're referring to. 21 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I'll -- I'll -- 22 THE WITNESS: I don't know what you're 23 talking about now. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: So, that's 25 not fair. That's fine, that's fine.

1 2 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 3 Q: You'd agree with, sir, that the voice 4 of the caller that we've heard in this phone call has a 5 certain aggressive tone? 6 A: The Native or the -- the police 7 officer? 8 Q: The -- what appears to be the First 9 Nations person who's calling in. 10 A: I would say he was upset. 11 Q: You'd agree with me, sir, that he's 12 using strong language? 13 A: I would say that it's not really 14 super strong, but it's right to the punch, yes. 15 Q: Right. And, as I understand your 16 evidence, you're taking the position that you didn't, in 17 any such calls, use that tone or that type of language? 18 A: Well, that's not really that bad. 19 Q: Well, -- 20 A: But no, not that bad, no, no. 21 Q: No, no. And so your way of 22 suggesting, distancing yourself from this call, is to 23 suggest that it wasn't you? 24 A: No, that wasn't me. If you want me 25 to go outside and phone in here, I'll be glad to do that.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 2 Scullion? 3 THE WITNESS: Or I can even -- 4 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: I'd suggest the 5 question's unfair. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, well -- 7 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: He's already 8 testified as to what he did, what he heard, what he spoke 9 about. He specified that this isn't him on the tape that 10 we've now received, not all of us, but we've heard it in 11 the Commission. 12 I think it's unfair to suggest that he's 13 distancing himself from a phone call he wasn't part of. 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That he says 15 he wasn't part of. I think unless you can tie him 16 somehow to this phone call, I think you'll have to be 17 careful, you -- 18 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I appreciate 19 that -- 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: With the 21 questions you ask him. 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- Mr. 23 Commissioner. My point is that, having been confronted 24 with a phone call, the substance of which contradicts the 25 evidence before you this morning, one (1) possibility and

1 explanation is for this witness to contend that it's not 2 his voice. 3 I've made my point, Mr. Commissioner, and 4 I will move on. 5 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you, 6 Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 9 Q: See, I am going to suggest to you, 10 sir, and it will be up to Mr. Commissioner to make the 11 decision, I am going to suggest to you, sir, that that 12 call, indeed, is from you. 13 A: And I'll bet you a million dollars, 14 it wasn't. 15 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 16 that you only made one (1) phone call that night to the 17 police and that it occurred at or around 4:10 or 4:20 18 a.m. 19 A: And I'm going to suggest to you that 20 I made three (3). 21 Q: And, sir, you indicated that in this 22 third phone call that you claim that you made between 23 12:30 and 1:00 that another individual got on the phone 24 line with you, on your cell phone you said it was? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: And what's the name of that 2 individual? 3 A: One (1) of the guys' relatives. I 4 think I've said it two (2) or three (3) times now. 5 Q: I didn't ask you what his 6 relationship was, sir, I asked you his name. What's his 7 name? 8 A: Do you really need to know? 9 Q: Well, unless Mr. Commissioner rules 10 that it's not appropriate, then yes. I'm entitled to ask 11 that, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Which end is 13 this? Is this the Officer Babbitt end? The person got 14 on -- is this from the native end? 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: My 16 understanding is that -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Somebody got 18 on this end? 19 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, I 21 think that's important for us to know who that is, if you 22 know. 23 THE WITNESS: I don't mind. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you 25 know --

1 THE WITNESS: If I have to, it's no 2 problem. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: If you know 4 it, I think you should -- 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- answer 7 this question. 8 THE WITNESS: It's Martin Doxtator. 9 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Thank you, sir. 10 THE WITNESS: You're very welcome. 11 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Now, Mr. 12 Commissioner, I'd be proposing at this time to tender the 13 CD that captures this call, subject to further proof and 14 I anticipate that we're going to be hearing directly from 15 Doug Babbitt. 16 So if we could -- 17 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's fine. 18 I think it becomes 327. 19 THE REGISTRAR: P-327. 20 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-327. 21 22 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-327: CD of phone call generated 23 from an audio tape September 24 07/'95 04:20 hours. 25

1 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Now, I can also 2 indicate, sir, that the CD was generated from an 3 audiotape. And I anticipate, sir, that we're going to 4 hear evidence that Officer Babbitt marked on the outside 5 of the audiotape a date of September the 7th, 1995, a 6 time of 04:20 hours, a designation of unknown caller and 7 then a number sign with a "3" after it. 8 And so I'm also going to propose at this 9 time, sir, is to tender a photocopy of the cassette tape, 10 again subject to further proof, of the audiotape from 11 which the CD was generated. 12 THE REGISTRAR: P-328. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-328, thank 14 you. 15 16 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-328: Xerox copy of audio cassette 17 tape marked 07 September, '95 18 0420 hours, Number 3 u/k 19 caller 20 21 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Now, sir, as 22 further proof of the timing of this call, I anticipate 23 we're going to hear evidence that Officer Babbitt 24 immediately contacted the Command Centre. 25 That call is captured in a logger tape and

1 is time stamped. I'm happy to play that excerpt right 2 now; it's very brief. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't 4 think it's necessary at this point. 5 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: But what I 6 would do, sir, is propose to tender that call at this 7 time, again it's subject to further proof and I'm only 8 doing it now just to keep everything together. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes?. 10 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Obviously the 11 difficulty is that the tape hasn't been proven in any 12 way, shape or form. On the other hand, I'm cognizant of 13 -- of -- 14 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: What we've 15 done in other situations. 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Yes, that's right. I 17 think for ident -- 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm 19 reluctant to admit it yet until there's some evidence 20 that connects the tape to what we're doing. 21 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Very well, sir. 22 Then what I will do is, we'll hang onto it and I 23 anticipate it'll be tendered through Officer Babbitt when 24 he comes to testify. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think

1 that's a better idea. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 4 Q: Sir, I gather from your evidence 5 yesterday, excuse me, that you trusted the SIU officers 6 with whom you dealt? 7 A: Yes, I do. 8 Q: And I also gather, sir, from your 9 evidence yesterday that you had no reluctance whatsoever 10 in speaking with the SIU officers? 11 A: None. 12 Q: Indeed, I'm going to suggest to you, 13 again based on what you told us yesterday that you were 14 actually anxious to get to him -- get to them, rather? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Because you wanted to be able to put 17 forth the First Nations perspective of what occurred on 18 the night in question? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And as we've heard, you had a certain 21 intimate knowledge of that perspective? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And as we've also heard, and again 24 I'm going to suggest it's a reflection of your desire to 25 be speaking with them, you regularly kept the SIU

1 officers up-to-date as to certain developments as they 2 occurred? 3 A: Pretty much. 4 Q: And you told us yesterday of specific 5 things that you claim that you told them about, for 6 example, this alleged threat by Jim Potts; correct? 7 A: Correct. 8 Q: The mystery surrounding the phone 9 bills? 10 A: Correct. 11 Q: You, I understand, also claim to have 12 told them about the phone calls that you had with Officer 13 Babbitt? 14 A: Correct. 15 Q: The SIU reports, sir, that have been 16 produced to us to-date, suggest that your first contact 17 with SIU investigators took place on September the 19th, 18 1995. 19 Do you have any reason to disagree with 20 that day? 21 A: I never marked down no days, no. I 22 had no reason to. 23 Q: Does it sound about right? 24 A: It could be. I -- I know it was a 25 long time because I wanted to see them on the 9th or the

1 10th or the 1lth, I wanted to see them. 2 Q: And you wanted to talk to them? 3 A: Yes, I did. As a Native 4 investigator, I surely did. 5 Q: And you wanted to hand over the stuff 6 that you had picked up and collected as soon as possible? 7 A: I wanted direction, plus I wanted 8 that, plus I wanted more knowledge on what was happening, 9 what was going on. 10 Q: Okay. In the binder in front of you, 11 sir, I want to take you to Tab 12. For the purposes of 12 the record, that is Document 1001791. 13 And I'm interested in starting, sir, at 14 page 7 of that document. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: All right. And I'm only interested 20 in this page for the purposes of establishing the date of 21 what I'm about to ask you about. You'll see, sir, an 22 entry about a third of the way down referencing Tuesday, 23 September the 19th, 1995. 24 Do you see that? 25 A: Yes, I see that.

1 Q: And my understanding, sir, is that 2 this report was authored by a gentleman by the name of Ed 3 Wilson. Do you recognize that name? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: He was a man that you had dealings 6 with from time to time? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: From the SIU? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And if you turn the page, I'm 11 interested in an entry time stamped 16:10, which I assume 12 is 4:10 p.m. in the afternoon. Do you see that, page 8? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And the entry says: 15 "Meet with Marvin Conners.." 16 Now, pausing now because we haven't really 17 heard much about the name of Marvin Connors. Who was he? 18 A: I'm just like you. I -- I don't 19 really know. 20 Q: You don't know who Marvin Connors was? 21 A: No, ma'am. 22 Q: I understand, sir, that he was 23 actually a peacekeeper that was brought in. 24 A: Yes, he was. He was brought in from 25 somewhere. I -- I even asked just from two (2) or three

1 (3) days ago and the only thing I could come up with was 2 he was an American. 3 Q: An American? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Okay. We also seen -- with Marvin 6 Connors, Jim Tobias. Who's Jim Tobias? 7 A: He's a -- a faith keeper from 8 Moraviantown. 9 Q: Okay. And two (2) other Natives at 10 Kettle Point Restaurant. The Natives identified 11 themselves only as Layton and it appears to a terrible 12 butchering of your surname, but Elijah. 13 Now clearly those aren't two (2) people and 14 you -- okay. My understanding, sir, is that you testified 15 yesterday that you attended with Gabe Doxtator. 16 A: Yes, I did. 17 Q: All right. So it may very well be 18 that what the officers are referring to and -- and the 19 officer will have to -- to clarify it. But he's referring 20 to you and perhaps he's just misidentified Mr. Doxtator. 21 A: Yes. I -- I noticed that a while 22 back. 23 Q: It's your recollection, sir, that when 24 you first met with Mr. Wilson that you were in the company 25 of the gentlemen whose names I've just read out?

1 A: Yes. But they stayed in the other 2 part. 3 Q: Pardon? 4 A: Yes. But they stayed in the other 5 part of the restaurant. 6 Q: Oh. All right. So you met alone with 7 Mr. Wilson? 8 A: Alone with Gabe. 9 Q: Alone with Gabe? All right. Well, 10 that makes sense, because what I'm interested in is the 11 next couple of sentences. They spoke of evidence they had 12 seized and video -- sorry, they spoke of evidence they had 13 seized and a videotape they had taken after the incident. 14 So pausing there, I gather what you're 15 telling me is that you and Mr. Doxtator went aside with 16 Mr. Wilson. And I trust that you spoke to him about some 17 of the evidence that had been seized by the First Nations 18 investigators and some of the tapes that had been made? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. And then it says, "they 21 asked if there was a charge for tampering with evidence." 22 Now do you recall asking that question? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And were you concerned about your own 25 jeopardy or the jeopardy of some of your fellow

1 investigators because they were collecting evidence? 2 A: No. 3 Q: What were you concerned about? 4 A: I was concerned about why we couldn't 5 meet the people that were holding them back. I was going 6 to ask if they were -- could be liable for -- for that 7 tampering with evidence to try and make that evidence no 8 good, is what we were talking about. 9 Q: So this conversation is about your 10 asking if the -- someone at Kettle Point such as Chief 11 Bressette or a councillor could be criminally liable for 12 tampering with the evidence because they prevented the SIU 13 from coming into speak with you? 14 A: Exactly. 15 Q: Okay. Well we'll hear from Mr. Wilson 16 about that okay? And it then goes on to say: 17 "They both showed concern of warrants 18 outstanding for themselves." 19 Well, do you recall a conversation about 20 that? 21 A: Warrants for the SIU? 22 Q: No. I'm taking it and again we'll 23 have to hear from Mr. Wilson, but I'm taking what's being 24 said is that he's attributing to you and Mr. Doxtator, a 25 concern about outstanding warrants, arrest warrants I can

1 only assume, that you were facing or that you had a 2 concern you were facing? 3 A: Oh, no. I wasn't facing anything. 4 Q: Well that would be my first question. 5 Do you recall raising this with him? 6 A: Not me, no. Maybe Gabe and not 7 myself. 8 Q: Well, you see it's interesting because 9 the officer hasn't recorded that it was Mr. Wilson. He 10 has suggested in this entry that it was both of you. 11 A: Oh, no. Not me. 12 Q: So he would have it wrong it would 13 appear? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And do you remember, specifically, Mr. 16 Doxtator raising this question? 17 A: No. 18 Q: So as far as you were concerned no 19 topic about outstanding warrants came up? 20 A: There could have been but not that I 21 would be aware of or concerned about. 22 Q: I'm sorry. When you say there could 23 have been are your referring -- 24 A: On myself, there was none. 25 Q: Just allow me to ask the question,

1 sir. What I'm trying to ascertain is whether or not the 2 topic came up? 3 A: It could have. 4 Q: It could have, thank you. And was 5 there any -- I gather from what you're telling me, sir, 6 that -- that you had no concern about coming forward to 7 the SIU investigators because you were concerned you might 8 be arrested. 9 Is that what you'd have us believe? 10 A: No. 11 Q: Okay. And as far as you were aware, 12 Mr. Doxtator didn't have any of those concerns. 13 A: No. 14 Q: See, I'm trying to find an explanation 15 as to why this was recorded -- 16 A: Well, maybe Mr. Doxtator did, but I 17 don't know about it. 18 Q: All right, and it also reflects here 19 that you were informed that this, meaning I only can 20 assume the dealing with outstanding warrants, did not fall 21 within the mandate of the SIU and that they were not 22 interested in what the two (2) of you had outstanding at 23 this point. 24 Do you recall any part of that 25 conversation?

1 A: No. 2 Q: No. And you'll agree, sir, that the 3 last entry reflects that everyone agreed to meet on 4 October the 2nd at the very same restaurant at nine 5 o'clock in the morning? 6 You see that there? 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 A: The last entry, is it the next page? 11 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: It's in the 12 same paragraph, I'm sorry. 13 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Last sentence of 14 that paragraph -- 15 THE WITNESS: Oh, oh, okay, okay. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 18 Q: It reads: 19 "Agreed to meet with above people on 20 October 2nd at Kettle Point Restaurant 21 at 09:00 hours." 22 A: Yes, that could have been. 23 Q: Okay. And I'm going to suggest to 24 you, sir, that notwithstanding your purported eagerness to 25 meet with the SIU officers, you didn't show up for that

1 meeting. 2 A: Probably not, I don't know. 3 Q: If I could take you, sir, to page 10 4 of the same document... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: You'll see at the bottom of the page 10 the date, Monday October 2nd, 1995 and what I'm 11 interested, is what occurs or was reduced on the following 12 page, Page 11. 13 A: Page 11? 14 Q: Yes. 15 A: Okay, yeah. 16 Q: And you'll see there's an entry for 17 nine o'clock in the morning. 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And it says: 20 "Attend Kettle Point Restaurant, re- 21 scheduled meeting with Marvin Connors, 22 Jim Tobias, Layton, and Elijah and 23 possibly other natives who were to give 24 us statements concerning the shooting 25 incident and turn over a number of

1 exhibits." 2 Now I gather, sir, that in the meeting that 3 had occurred on September the 19th, it was agreed that the 4 purpose of that October 2nd meeting was to give you an 5 opportunity to turn over these exhibits that you claimed 6 were -- you were so anxious to turn over? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Right. And October 2nd rolls around 9 and you don't show up to deliver those exhibits, right? 10 A: That's when lawyer says, Don't go. 11 Q: Well, you'd agree with me that you 12 didn't show up -- 13 A: Yes, I just said a lawyer said, Don't 14 go. 15 Q: A lawyer said, Don't go? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right. Continuing on: 18 "These people failed to attend, with the 19 exception of Marvin Connors and another 20 male who identified himself as Chief Ray 21 John from Oneida who arrived at 10:05 22 a.m." 23 So it would appear that -- that they waited 24 around for at least an hour and five (5) minutes. 25 Now, pausing for a moment, and it may speak

1 for itself based on the notes, who was Chief Ray John? 2 A: That's exactly who he is, Chief Ray 3 John. 4 Q: Okay, and it says here: 5 "Marvin Connors apologized for the 6 inconvenience and said he did not know 7 until this morning that the others were 8 not going to come, as they had retained 9 legal Counsel by the name of Owen Young 10 who works out of Hamilton and 11 Brantford." 12 Now, before I go on, sir, I want to be very 13 careful, because I do not want you to convey to us 14 anything about any conversations you had with a lawyer, 15 Okay? That's subject to Solicitor/Client privilege and 16 nobody else here has any business knowing about anything 17 that was said, subject to that privilege. 18 But what I am interested in knowing about 19 is that you certainly a witness or a participant, perhaps, 20 is a better way of putting it. You weren't a participant 21 on the evening of the 6th at -- at the confrontation with 22 the police? 23 A: I was a participant? 24 Q: No, I'm saying you were -- 25 A: I don't think so.

1 Q: That's my point, you were not a 2 participant, right? 3 A: Oh, no, no. 4 Q: Right, okay. And so certainly you 5 didn't have any concerns that anything you might say to 6 the SIU would place you in any kind of jeopardy? 7 A: No. 8 Q: You had nothing to hide and -- and -- 9 or -- 10 A: Oh, no, never. 11 Q: -- nothing that you were concerned 12 about? 13 A: No, I had nothing to hide. 14 Q: Right. And yet you didn't show up at 15 the meeting? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And I -- I also note -- and again, I 18 want to be careful how I ask you this and -- and I don't 19 want you responding when you ought not to be responding, 20 but if you carry on down, there's an entry that Wayne 21 Allen, and he was another of the SIU investigators with 22 whom you had contact? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: He indicates that at 12:30 p.m. he put 25 a call into Mr. Owen Young, Legal Counsel, who apparently

1 wasn't in, but a message was left for him. And at 16:30 2 or 4:32 p.m. Mr. Young apparently returned Mr. Allen's 3 call. And apparently during that call, Mr. Young stated 4 that he had not been retained, as yet, to represent the 5 Natives at Ipperwash, but would contact us if retained. 6 Now, what I'm essentially interested in 7 knowing, sir, is that notwithstanding your claim that you 8 -- you wanted to turn over this evidence, for whatever 9 reason, you did not come and attend this October 2nd 10 meeting, right? 11 A: Yes, we went through that. 12 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I've -- I've let this go 13 on for a little bit, but the -- the Witness has indicated 14 as a consequence of receiving advice from a lawyer, he did 15 not go to a meeting. 16 There's other spins that are trying to be 17 put on this, I don't see the evidentiary basis for it. 18 The fact that he may have been in the process of retaining 19 Legal Counsel doesn't mean he didn't receive advice. And, 20 of course, in the next entry, a lawyer does confirm that, 21 in fact, he has now been retained, although it's a 22 different lawyer. 23 I just don't see where this is going. I -- 24 I - I don't think it's proper. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, perhaps

1 I should hear from you where you're going with this 2 because it does seem to me that it is part of 3 solicitor/client privilege. 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I wanted to give 5 Mr. Elijah an opportunity, and it may be a very simple 6 explanation, to clarify why Mr. Young would have said -- 7 but again, if it's going to be getting into an area of 8 solicitor/client privilege, then I won't. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I don't think 10 it's helpful and I don't think it's necessary and I don't 11 think we should pursue it at this point. 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Fair enough, 13 sir. And as we've also heard from the Witness, he 14 indicated that he didn't have any concerns about his own 15 jeopardy, so I will move on. 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: That's right. 17 18 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 19 Q: You described yesterday, sir, in 20 relation to Jim Potts, an incident that occurred, I think 21 you said 1996 or 1997 and you spoke, in particular, of a 22 meeting at Stoney Point where you claimed that Officer 23 Potts -- I'll use my words -- appeared to lose his cool. 24 Is that a fair way of characterizing it according to you? 25 A: In 1996 or '97, yes.

1 Q: All right. And you described a 2 meeting, as I said, that involved about 80 percent of the 3 Stoney Point community? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And you indicated that Miles Bressette 6 was present? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you indicated that there were 9 members of the Anishnaabeg police service who were 10 present? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And was one (1) of those individuals 13 present, Glen Bannon? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Yes. And I understand, sir, and I 16 anticipate that we're going to hear evidence that at the 17 material time, Miles Bressette, his employment was in 18 potential jeopardy as the Chief of the Kettle and Stony 19 Point police? 20 A: It could have been, yes. 21 Q: And I also anticipate, sir, that we're 22 going to hear that there were a number of members of the 23 community, both Kettle Point and Stoney Point, who were 24 publicly making an objection by way of protest, to that 25 possible eventuality?

1 A: I -- I'm not from that community. I 2 don't know. 3 Q: Were you aware, sir, that there were 4 protests going on at Kettle Point where views, strong 5 views, that Miles Bressette ought not have his employment 6 terminated, was going on? 7 A: I wasn't part of that, ma'am. 8 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, Mr. 9 Scullion...? 10 He's just said he wasn't part of it, that 11 may be the end of it. 12 OBJ MR. KEVIN SCULLION: The objection is to 13 the area of questioning. We've heard from Miles 14 Bressette -- 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 16 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: He's been cross- 17 examined on his information. We didn't touch upon this 18 issue, it's obviously a significant issue. If I need to 19 bring him back to testify about all that went on in that 20 issue, I think that we're opening up a whole new world -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes. 22 MR. KEVIN SCULLION: -- for Mr. Bressette. 23 So, I don't think that's fair. 24 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Well, this 25 witness has said he doesn't know anything about it, so I'm

1 not sure whether or not -- 2 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Mr. 3 Commissioner, it was this witness who brought this up 4 yesterday. I can indicate to you, sir, that -- that this 5 is -- 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Brought what 7 up yesterday, I'm sorry? 8 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: The 1997 9 meeting. 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Yes, the 11 meeting with Inspector Potts was -- 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: He did bring 14 that up. 15 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: And he did bring 16 up the fact that Miles Bressette was a participant and 17 that Miles Bressette made an accusation against Officer 18 Potts. 19 In my respectful submission, I am 20 entitled -- 21 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay. 22 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: -- to pursue the 23 factual -- underpinnings surrounding that meeting and to 24 explore that with a view to challenging this witness' 25 claim as to the behaviour of Officer Potts.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, so 2 you've asked -- the last question you asked he said he 3 didn't know anything about where you're going now. 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: So his evidence 5 as I understand it, sir, is that he wasn't aware that any 6 type of a protest was going on. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 9 Q: Is that your evidence, sir? 10 A: It's -- yeah. I didn't know until the 11 -- pretty well over. 12 Q: I -- 13 A: It lasted one (1) day or two (2) days. 14 Q: So you did know that something was 15 going on? 16 A: Yeah, but it had nothing to do with 17 anybody in the Camp. It was Kettle Point. It wasn't 18 Aazhoodena or the Oneida Peacekeepers. We were strictly 19 in Aazhoodena territory. Anything out there was out it 20 didn't have nothing to do with us. 21 Q: Well, sir, I'm going to anticipate 22 that there was a perception that it did have something to 23 do with you, and that was the reason that a meeting was 24 called -- I shouldn't say "perception" to do with you, 25 that it did somehow involve the Stoney Pointers, and that

1 as a result, Officer Potts suggested that a community 2 meeting take place at Stoney Point in which members of the 3 Stoney Point community attended, that Miles Bressette 4 attended, and that Chief Bannon attended and that Officer 5 Potts attended. 6 A: If you know, then tell me, because I 7 don't know about that -- what happened. I'm telling you I 8 don't know what happened. 9 Q: What you're -- what you're claiming, 10 sir, is that you don't know the purpose for which the 11 meeting was called? 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. What I'm going to suggest 14 to you, sir, that at no time did Officer Potts lose his 15 cool. And what I'm going to suggest to you is that what 16 happened is there was a verbal confrontation between Miles 17 Bressette and Glenn Bannon where Miles Bressette accused 18 Glenn Bannon of coming in to take over his position. 19 Do you agree or disagree? 20 A: Okay. Is that to make him mad, is 21 that what you're trying to say? Is that the statement 22 that made him mad and get up and leave and break up the 23 meeting? Is that what you want me to answer? 24 Q: No, I want you to simply answer my 25 question, sir --

1 A: Okay, make it more clear. 2 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Okay, do you 3 want to try the question again? 4 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Certainly. 5 6 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 7 Q: I'm going to suggest to you, sir, that 8 there was a verbal exchange between Miles Bressette and 9 Glenn Bannon in the presence of Officer Potts and others-- 10 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Was this 11 witness there? 12 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Well, my 13 understanding from his evidence yesterday is that he must 14 have been there because he told us about the meeting. 15 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: All right. 16 17 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 18 Q: You were there, weren't you, Mr. 19 Elijah? 20 A: Yes, I was there. 21 Q: Right. 22 A: Yeah, that's why I said, Are you 23 saying that that's the statement that made Potts mad? And 24 you wouldn't answer me. 25 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: No, you've

1 got to answer the questions -- 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: -- that the 4 lawyer asks, so continue your question -- 5 THE WITNESS: I was there. 6 7 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 8 Q: What I'm curious in knowing is did 9 Miles Bressette and Glenn Bannon get into a verbal 10 exchange where Miles Bressette accused Chief Bannon of 11 trying to come in and take over his position and 12 essentially have the Anishnaabeg police come in and assume 13 the policing responsibility at the Kettle Point and Stoney 14 Point community? 15 A: Kettle Point, yes. 16 Q: So that verbal exchange did occur? 17 A: Yes, but that... 18 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you that 19 Glen Bannon got visibly upset by the accusation; do you 20 agree with that? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 23 that at no point during that meeting did Officer Potts 24 lose control? 25 A: You didn't hear it all.

1 Q: So you're going to disagree with me? 2 A: What you said was true but you're 3 leaving some stuff out. 4 Q: So your evidence, sir, is that in 5 addition to a verbal exchange between Miles Bressette and 6 Glen Bannon, Jim Potts also got verbally upset? 7 A: Yes. Maybe two (2) minutes later, 8 three (3) minutes later after that between Miles and 9 Bannon. Yes, that did happen. 10 Q: Okay. Well we have your evidence on 11 that, sir. You claimed, sir, that Inspector Potts 12 threatened you with harm unless you stopped advancing the 13 theory that the OPP were drunk on the night in question. 14 Is that a fair way of -- of capturing your allegation? 15 A: That's fair. 16 Q: Okay. And I trust, sir, that you are 17 as certain about the occurrence of this threat as you are 18 that Bell Canada was tampering with your phone records 19 referable to the calls between the 4th and the 6th, 1995? 20 A: Around the 6th, 1995. 21 Q: And I trust, sir, that you are as 22 certain about the occurrence of this alleged threat as 23 your -- as you are about your claim that a secretary at 24 the London Detachment on the night of September 6th, was 25 aware of a plan to storm the Park?

1 A: You said that nice. But I said when 2 she said, Oh did it already happen, that's what I took it. 3 So if you want to say assumption, fine. 4 Q: And I trust, sir, that you are as 5 certain about the occurrence of this alleged threat by 6 Officer Potts as you are about your claim that men, 7 dressed in camouflage, entered the field behind the A- 8 frame on September 10th and 11th and removed garbage bags 9 full of items? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And you are as certain about the 12 occurrence of this alleged threat as you are about your 13 claim that a floppy disk found in the field near the A- 14 frame contained false data about the number of true 15 attendances in March and April 1995 at Oneida. 16 A: Exactly. 17 Q: And I trust, sir, that you are also as 18 certain about the occurrence of that threat as you are 19 about your claim that an SIU officer told you that, You're 20 probably right, the OPP officers were drunk that night? 21 A: Did you hear that from me? 22 Q: I understood from your testimony 23 yesterday that when you told the SIU about your theory, 24 they said, You're probably right but you won't be able to 25 prove it.

1 A: There you go. 2 Q: Right. And tell me, sir, was that an 3 off-the-record comment? 4 A: It could have been. 5 Q: As represented to you? 6 A: It could have been because there was 7 lots. We just talked back and forth just like you and I. 8 Q: So are you saying to us that it could 9 have been that the SIU said to you, Off the record, 10 Layton, you're probably right that they were drunk but 11 you'll not be able to prove it? 12 A: They didn't say that, no. We were 13 just talking. 14 Q: So they didn't use the -- you see -- 15 A: No, no, no. 16 Q: -- we've heard. I'll tell you why I'm 17 asking this. 18 A: Okay. 19 Q: Ben Pouget testified that from time to 20 time the SIU would use the term, Off the record. 21 A: I never used that. 22 Q: I'm not asking you about whether you 23 used that. I'm curious as to whether the SIU ever used 24 that to you? 25 A: No.

1 Q: I trust, sir, that following this 2 purported threat by Officer Potts that you didn't trust 3 him very much? 4 A: No. 5 Q: And I trust, sir, that -- and, indeed, 6 you said it yesterday, in your view, he was not a very 7 good representative for the OPP? 8 A: No, not in the two (2) meetings. 9 Q: Pardon? 10 A: No, not in those two (2) meetings we 11 had. 12 Q: Right, two (2) -- right, not in those 13 two (2) meetings. 14 And I trust, sir, it was your position 15 that, as far as you were concerned, he wasn't a man who 16 could contribute to healthy relations between the Stoney 17 Point people and the OPP? 18 A: That's right. 19 Q: Now, I understand, sir, that he was 20 brought into the area and arrived on September the 7th, 21 1995. Do you have any reason to disagree with me? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And I understand his role -- and I'm - 24 - I'm curious to know what you believed his role to be -- 25 that he was there as a liaison between the OPP and the

1 Stoney Pointers; is that fair? 2 A: I don't know. 3 Q: You don't know what his role was? 4 A: No. 5 Q: But you certainly -- we know that he 6 was still involved in matters related to Kettle and Stony 7 Point in 1997, because you've told us about this meeting 8 in which he was present at that year? 9 A: I didn't know if he was involved, I 10 know he was at that meeting. 11 Q: Right. At the very least, he still 12 had a presence in the community up to that point? 13 A: That day. 14 Q: That day. We know, sir, and I 15 anticipate that we're going to hear that he was involved 16 in the community quite heavily in those first couple of 17 months following the shooting. 18 And he continued to serve as a liaison 19 officer at least until 1997; you were aware of that? 20 A: No. 21 Q: You didn't see him around? 22 A: No. 23 Q: Never? 24 A: Well, I seen him, yeah, but not in the 25 capacity that you said, because it was Hudson.

1 Q: Okay. I understand and you quite liked 2 Officer Hudson, I gather? 3 A: I liked anybody that would meet me 4 like a man. 5 Q: All right, fair enough. See, what I'm 6 curious about, sir, is that you seemed prepared to allow a 7 man, an officer with the OPP whom you didn't trust, whom 8 you thought wasn't the kind of person who could contribute 9 to healthy relations between the Stoney Pointers and the 10 police, you appeared to simply allow him to continue to 11 have a role in the community for quite some time? 12 A: No, I never. 13 MS. SUSAN VELLA: I'm sorry -- 14 THE WITNESS: I never. I didn't even know 15 he was there. 16 MS. SUSAN VELLA: With all respect, I 17 don't think that any foundation for that question has been 18 laid. Whether Mr. Elijah had any ability to determine who 19 would play what role in terms of the OPP and -- and the 20 Stoney Point community. He was head of security. He was 21 a peacekeeper. 22 Now, if My Friend wishes to establish a 23 foundation and then we can see whether or not that 24 question is appropriate. 25 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: I'm happy to do

1 that, Mr. Commissioner. 2 3 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 4 Q: As has been made clear, sir, you were 5 the head of security? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: You had the ear of Bruce Elijah? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: You had the ear of some of the -- what 10 has sometimes been referred to as the, principle men, at 11 Stoney Point, people like Judas George, Glenn George? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: You had the ear -- you could speak to 14 Mike Hudson? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: And is it fair to say that at no time 17 did you raise your concerns about Officer Potts with any 18 of these individuals? 19 A: No. 20 Q: So you did raise your concerns? 21 A: No. 22 Q: So you didn't see that it would be 23 appropriate to raise your concerns with these people? 24 A: When you're dealing with an entity 25 like the OPP and you get threatened like that --

1 Q: Right. 2 A: -- you don't raise it with nobody, you 3 just -- you don't know who to trust, believe me. 4 Q: But -- but, sir, surely you trusted 5 Bruce Elijah? 6 A: Oh, yeah. 7 Q: Right, but you didn't tell Bruce 8 Elijah about your concerns about Inspector Potts, that's 9 what you've just told us? 10 A: Oh, yes, I did. 11 Q: Well, now you're changing your 12 evidence. 13 A: You're -- you're telling me that I 14 tell any of the OPP, which I never. 15 Q: No. 16 A: Yes, I told Bruce, I told Gord. 17 Q: You raised these concerns? You told 18 Gord Peters? 19 A: Oh, yeah, just like, Hey, man, I've 20 been threatened. 21 Q: And was it your evidence that they 22 didn't care? How did they respond when you told them 23 this? 24 A: Nothing, just -- nothing, just took it 25 in, I guess.

1 Q: So, you'd have us believe they were 2 prepared to allow this to -- to go unaddressed? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: Thank you, sir. 5 A: You're welcome. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you. 7 8 CONTINUED BY MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: 9 Q: I'm going to suggest to you, sir, that 10 at no time did Inspector Potts threaten you. 11 You can agree or disagree. 12 A: Disagree. 13 Q: And I'm going to suggest to you, sir, 14 that while he did have a conversation and you may have 15 been present at that conversation, he did have a 16 conversation to the effect of, You can't honestly believe 17 that the OPP were drunk in the night in question. 18 So, indeed, what I'm saying to you, sir, is 19 that there was a conversation in which he was involved 20 with Ben Pouget, possibly you were there. But I'm going 21 to suggest to you that what he said is that, No, you can't 22 honestly believe that the police were drunk in the night 23 in question, and that at no time during that same 24 conversation did he make a threat. 25 And you can agree or disagree.

1 A: I just told you. 2 Q: Is it your evidence, sir, that only on 3 the two (2) occasions that you've described that Officer 4 Potts "lost it" as you've said? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Did you have occasion to have dealings 7 with him at other times? 8 A: No. 9 Q: So the only two (2) times that you had 10 dealings with him, you found him very difficult to deal 11 with? 12 A: Yes. I met him in the Park, myself. 13 The second time, it was the whole community. So it wasn't 14 just with me, plus I never had nothing to say. I just 15 looked at him over there and I just minded my own 16 business. 17 Q: So, did it strike you that -- that he 18 was the type of person who could quickly fly off the 19 handle, from your experience with him on those two (2) 20 occasions? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Thank you, sir. 23 A: You're welcome. 24 MS. ANDREA TUCK-JACKSON: Those are my 25 questions, Mr. Commissioner.

1 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Thank you 2 very much, Ms. Tuck-Jackson. 3 Ms. Jones, how long do you think you might 4 be; does your estimate change as a result of the questions 5 we've just had, can you shorten, lengthen, or how long do 6 you think you might be? 7 MS. KAREN JONES: About the same, about 8 thirty (30) to forty-five (45) minutes. 9 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I'm sorry, I 10 can't hear. Thirty (30) to forty-five (45)? 11 MS. KAREN JONES: Thirty (30) to forty- 12 five (45) minutes. 13 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: I think we 14 should take a break. I was hoping we could finish with 15 this witness before the morning break, but that was 16 unrealistic, so I think we'll take a break now. 17 Thank you very much, Ms. Jones. 18 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 19 for fifteen (15) minutes. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 10:30 a.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 10:50 a.m. 23 24 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 25 resumed, please be seated.

1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KAREN JONES: 4 Q: Good morning, Mr. Elijah. 5 A: Good morning, sibowee (phonetic). 6 Q: My name's Karen Jones. I'm one (1) of 7 the lawyers for the Ontario Provincial Police Association. 8 And, Mr. Elijah, I wanted to ask you some 9 questions about when you got to the Park. You had told us 10 you got there on the night of September the 8th? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Yeah, sometime -- it was dark, you 13 thought, after nine o'clock? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And you talked about you and about 16 thirty-six (36) men getting on the school bus and being 17 driven to the Park -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- from the Base, and you talked about 20 you and others sleeping in the bus that night. 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And I wondered if you can tell us, 23 over the course of the next week or two (2) weeks that you 24 were in the Park, if you or others used the bus to get 25 around or used it to transport people over the course of

1 time? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Yes? Can you tell us a little bit 4 about that? 5 A: Well, there was no place for us to 6 live or sleep or whatever, so we just made beds in there 7 and we kept our food in there, because it was -- the sand 8 was blowing all over. 9 So it was like our kitchen, our bedroom -- 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: -- we had one (1) TV, we had power, 12 we had -- that was our -- our house. 13 Q: Okay. And you used it constantly for 14 a period of time as your house? 15 A: For a period of time, yes -- 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: -- until it started to get a lot 18 colder and then some people got invited to stay with other 19 people. And some people were lucky enough to get tents 20 and somebody donated a trailer. 21 But other than that the bus was our main 22 living... 23 Q: Okay. And you talked about the night 24 that you got there about you and others walking around the 25 Park in the sandy parking lot and down East Parkway and

1 Army Camp Road. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Yeah. And I understand that you and 4 others also patrolled those areas over the course of the 5 time that your were there? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And we've heard from other witnesses 8 that there were a number of visitors to the Base and the 9 Park after September the 6th; people that came in to lend 10 support and that kind of thing. 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And I think we heard several hundred 13 people did that. 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. And is it fair to say that some 16 of those people would also have come down to the Park, and 17 gone through the sandy parking lot and looked at the area 18 where the confrontation had taken place? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: It was pretty heavily travelled? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Okay. And I just wanted to ask you 23 one (1) more thing about that sandy parking lot. You had 24 told Ms. Vella yesterday that you were sure that there was 25 a street light in the sandy parking lot?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. I anticipate we're going to 3 hear evidence that no street light was put in the sandy 4 parking lot until 1996 or so; does that change your 5 recollection at all? 6 A: No. Unless somebody had just had a 7 bright light there, because we could see, you could see. 8 Q: Okay. But you can't tell us if it was 9 a street light or not? 10 A: Not for certain, but it was a bright 11 light. 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: A bright light. Whether you call it a 14 street light or not, I'm not certain. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: It was lit up pretty good. 17 Q: Okay. And was it a light that was 18 there all the time that you were there? 19 A: At night. 20 Q: That light in the sandy parking lot? 21 A: At night, yes. 22 Q: At night. 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. So it wouldn't, for example, 25 have been -- when you say the area was lit up, it wouldn't

1 have been someone's flashlight or a spotlight or something 2 like that? 3 A: No. 4 Q: No. 5 A: No. It was on one (10 of the 6 buildings. 7 Q: Yeah. So from -- it sounds like from 8 what you're saying, it must have been something like a 9 street light to be on at night all the time -- 10 A: Yeah. It was there -- 11 Q: -- in one (1) place. 12 A: Yeah. You can -- you can get those 13 from the hydro company. 14 Q: Sure. 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: Sure. And you've talked a little 17 about some of the defences that were in place and that you 18 continued on when you got there. And you spoke a little 19 bit for example, about patrolling around the Park and the 20 Base and on Army Camp Road and East Parkway. 21 And I wanted to see if you could help us 22 understand what, if any, other measures you had people 23 undertake in order to make sure that the Park and the Base 24 were protected or that you could maintain control over 25 them.

1 We've heard, for example, that there were 2 sandbags that had been put up in the sandy parking lot 3 area. Had that happened before you arrived or was that 4 something that you initiated? 5 A: I don't know. No, I wouldn't have 6 said sandbags, no. 7 Q: Okay. Do you recall them being there 8 when you got to the Park on the night of September the 9 8th? 10 A: I can't even remember. 11 Q: Okay. We've also heard some evidence 12 that a back-hoe was used to move some sand into a sand 13 pile by the south end of the sandy parking lot and to dig 14 some holes, sort of bunkers, at the north end of the sandy 15 parking lot. 16 Were you involved in making the 17 arrangements for the use of the back-hoe? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. Did that happen while you were 20 in charge of security? 21 A: No. 22 Q: Did you know that the back-hoe had 23 been used -- 24 A: No. 25 Q: -- in those areas? Okay. One (1) of

1 the other things that we've seen in this proceeding, is 2 we've seen some pictures of what looked like bunkers or 3 fox holes or holes dug into the ground by the grassy knoll 4 area at the south end of the sandy parking lot. 5 Did you see those when you were at the Base 6 or the Park? 7 A: Yeah, I think I did, yeah. 8 Q: Okay. And were those things that you 9 had created or caused to be created -- 10 A: No. 11 Q: -- or were they there before you got 12 there? 13 A: No, I just knew they were there; I 14 just seen them. 15 Q: Okay. And you talked about, 16 yesterday, the First Nations investigation that you 17 undertook; and you said that it was something that was 18 done for yourselves and for the people of Stoney Point. 19 And can you help us understand what the 20 point of your investigation was; what were you trying to 21 find? 22 A: Anything and everything. 23 Q: Anything or everything -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- for what end, for what purpose?

1 A: There's some -- there had been some 2 wrongdoing happen there, and I wanted to find out what was 3 left. 4 Q: Okay. 5 A: Where it was left. 6 Q: Okay. And you said that the 7 investigation was still going on? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. Can you tell us what measures 10 you or other people, if you know, are taking in terms of a 11 continued investigation? 12 A: No, just hear -- whatever we hear, we 13 just gather. 14 Q: Okay. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 Q: Now, there were a couple of instances 19 or things that happened that Ben Pouget told us a little 20 bit about. And I wanted to ask you if you knew anything 21 about those matters as well. And I had taken Mr. Pouget 22 to some entries from his notes and for the assistance of 23 the Commission, that was Exhibit P-319. 24 And if it helps you, Mr. Elijah, I can ask 25 that the document be put in front of you or I can just

1 explain to you what I wanted to ask you about. 2 A: Okay, no problem. 3 Q: Whatever your preference is. 4 A: It -- it can be read to me. 5 Q: Okay. There is an entry on page 17 of 6 those notes and it was dated -- it looked like October 7 26th,'95. And what you'll see, if you look at that, is 8 the first page isn't numbered. 9 And if you go to the second page, you'll 10 see on the top right-hand corner of each page there's a 11 number? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: So, if you go to page 17. 14 A: Got it. 15 Q: Okay? And in the second paragraph 16 down -- 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: -- it says: 19 "Ask Martin or Layton about pipe and 20 sawed-off shotgun that was thrown over 21 the fence behind Dudley's house with a 22 handful of 30/30 casings (September 23 11th, or September 12, nighttime), 24 'Master Blaster' was on it." 25 And, when I asked Mr. Pouget about this, he

1 said that you may be someone who would know about the pipe 2 and sawed-off shotgun thrown over the fence behind 3 Dudley's house. 4 Do you have a recollection of that? 5 A: No. 6 Q: No? 7 A: No. My job was inside the Park. 8 Q: Okay. I can -- 9 A: My -- my job was entirely inside the 10 Park. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: Entirely. 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: Even if they were gathering evidence, 15 I was not there, so -- because if there was ever a day for 16 us to enter a court room or anything they could never say 17 that I put it there. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: I understood from what you had said 20 that you organized, though, for example, security -- 21 A: Pardon me? 22 Q: -- during -- I -- I had understood 23 from what you said earlier -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: -- that as head of security, you

1 would have been responsible, for example, for organizing 2 the people that were patrolling the Park and the Base? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And I take it that if people had 5 findings that they would come to you and tell you about 6 those findings? 7 A: Yeah, if it was evidence, yes, and -- 8 no, I never got that. 9 Q: Okay. You never heard about that? 10 A: No, no. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: The first time was yesterday 13 Q: Okay. 14 A: But you can ask the other guy. 15 Q: We shall see. And similarly, if you 16 flip back to page 13. 17 A: Got it. 18 Q: You'll see that there's an entry that 19 starts, "Some of the peacekeepers noticed early that 20 morning," and it refers to September 15th, 1995, that: 21 "Some infiltrators coming in from Outer 22 Drive carrying automatic weapons with 23 night vision, because they saw these 24 guys so they took off, native men. But 25 that afternoon about 15:00 hours we, the

1 peacekeepers, take some footprints and 2 one (1) rifle butt imprinted in the 3 sand." 4 And I'm not sure if you were here where Mr. 5 Pouget was talking about this -- 6 A: Yes, I was. 7 Q: -- but he -- okay, so you know he was 8 saying that there were people who were seen going from the 9 Base out onto Outer Drive, and that those people were 10 carrying automatic weapons? 11 A: I heard that. 12 Q: Okay. Now, did you know anything 13 about this prior to hearing Mr. Pouget; did anyone report 14 to you about this? 15 A: Yes, Ben did himself. But myself and 16 two (2) other people went and looked and I never seen 17 nothing, no evidence of dragging. Like, it would have 18 been left in the sand. 19 Q: Okay, so let me just go back a bit. I 20 take it, then, that you would have heard a report from 21 someone about this? 22 A: I heard the report from Ben. 23 Q: From? 24 A: Ben Pouget. 25 Q: From Ben?

1 A: Yeah. 2 Q: Okay. And as a result of that report, 3 you went to the area? 4 A: Yes, I went to the area -- 5 Q: Which was out -- 6 A: -- myself with a couple of other guys 7 and we walked around and that's why we didn't follow it 8 up, because I couldn't find nothing to -- to make me want 9 to spend more time on it. 10 Q: Okay. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 Q: And then the last thing I wanted to 15 ask you about, was you told us a little bit about men in 16 vans. 17 A: About? 18 Q: That you -- the men in vans that you 19 saw -- you had mentioned in your evidence yesterday, that 20 I think on September 12th and 13th, if I'm not mistaken, 21 that there were men in camouflage --- 22 A: Oh, okay, yeah. 23 Q: -- in vans. And I wanted to see if 24 you could describe, a little more fully, what you saw. 25 And first of all, can I just make sure that

1 this was something you observed or was it something 2 someone told to you? 3 A: Someone told me and then I observed 4 it. 5 Q: Okay. So can you walk us through from 6 the start, about who told you what and then what you did? 7 A: Okay. Is -- when they told me, they 8 said, There's those same vans. So I -- I -- we were about 9 at the bridge, so that's about a hundred (100) yards from 10 the road. 11 Q: Okay. 12 A: We seen the vans pull up, some guys 13 jump out and just take off across the field and they only 14 gone ten (10), twenty (20) minutes and back in the van and 15 gone. 16 But the van went -- dropped them off and 17 left. So -- 18 Q: Okay. So let me just go back a little 19 bit, and I don't mean to interrupt you, but I sort of want 20 to take it step by step. 21 You had said that you were on the bridge or 22 by the bridge? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And -- and someone came and spoke to 25 you, or people came and spoke to you?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Who -- who was that; who came and 3 talked to you? 4 A: I don't really know his name. He's -- 5 he's from -- he's from Kettle Point, but he lived in 6 London and he lived -- he was married to an Oneida, so 7 that's why he was with the Oneidas. 8 Q: Okay, so a person came and spoke to 9 you? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And as a result, you and that person, 12 did you go closer to the -- 13 A: Yes, we did. 14 Q: -- sandy parking lot or the road so 15 you -- 16 A: Just -- 17 Q: -- could see? 18 A: Yeah, just close enough to get the -- 19 the colours of the vans -- 20 Q: Okay. 21 A: -- and that was it, and -- 22 Q: Okay, and what were the colours of the 23 vans and how many of them were there? 24 A: Two (2) -- two (2) vans. 25 Q: Two (2) vans.

1 A: A blue one with tinted out windows and 2 a purple one with tinted out windows. 3 Q: One (1) was -- had tinted, purple 4 windows? 5 A: Yeah, oh yeah, both of them. Real 6 dark tint. 7 Q: Okay, and what were their colours? 8 A: Pardon me? 9 Q: And -- they -- you -- sorry -- 10 A: Purple and blue. 11 Q: Purple and blue, okay. And you say 12 people got out of the vans? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And can you describe how many people 15 and what they looked like or what they were wearing? 16 A: I would say four (4) got out of the 17 one and five (5) got out of the other one. 18 Q: Okay. 19 A: Nine (9) people. 20 Q: And can you describe the people to us? 21 A: No. 22 Q: No, not at all? 23 A: Just that they weren't none of us. 24 Q: When you say, "they weren't none of 25 us," what does that mean?

1 A: Natives. 2 Q: They weren't natives? 3 A: No. 4 Q: Okay. Can you describe the people to 5 us? 6 A: No. 7 Q: No, not at all? 8 A: No, just that they weren't none of us. 9 Q: When you say "They weren't none of 10 us," what does that mean? 11 A: Natives. 12 Q: They weren't Natives? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. Can you describe them any 15 further than that? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. And what were they wearing? 18 A: Camouflage. Like, they weren't 19 wearing army fatigue, they were wearing black fatigues and 20 grey fatigues. 21 Q: Okay. And you said they got out and 22 the vans left? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And where did the vans go? 25 A: I don't know.

1 Q: Did you see how the vans came in to 2 that area? 3 A: They come through Outer -- they come - 4 - they come down Army Camp Road, the guys jumped out and 5 then they went down I think it's East Parkway Drive. 6 Q: Okay. 7 A: And they come back the same way to 8 pick them up and left the same way. 9 Q: Okay. 10 A: A circle. 11 Q: Okay. And was that -- that was the 12 first time that you saw any vans? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Okay. And did you see -- you've told 15 us about the colour of the vans and the tinted windows. 16 Were you -- was that the occasion when you 17 got license plates? 18 A: No. 19 Q: No? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Okay. What was the next occasion that 22 you saw the vans? 23 A: The next day. I told everybody to be 24 prepared, get the license plate numbers and if you can get 25 pictures of their face.

1 Q: Okay. And who were you with? 2 A: Oh, gees. I can't remember right now 3 who it was. I had a couple of guys wait out there because 4 it was -- we didn't know, like if they were going to show 5 up at ten o'clock or 10:30 or eleven o'clock or one 6 o'clock. 7 So I didn't want to have too many men put 8 on that. 9 Q: Sure. But you had some people there-- 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: -- and they had cameras? 12 A: Yes, and they got license plate 13 numbers. 14 Q: And they had cameras too? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Okay. And do you remember what time 17 the vans came back? 18 A: The same two (2) Chevy vans. 19 Q: Okay. Do you remember about what time 20 of day that was? 21 A: That was about 1:30, two o'clock in 22 the afternoon. 23 Q: Okay. And did you -- the cameras were 24 ready to take pictures? 25 A: No.

1 Q: No? What happened to that? 2 A: I don't know. I don't know. They 3 just got startled. 4 Q: I'm sorry? 5 A: They got startled, they didn't even 6 expect them. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: Because I -- I asked them. I said 9 well why not, you know. I want pictures and all we got 10 was license plate numbers, that's good enough. 11 Q: Okay. Were you -- were you right 12 there when the vans came in? 13 A: No. 14 Q: No? Okay. So what, the vans came in 15 and you weren't there -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- at that point in time? 18 A: No. 19 Q: And so did you arrive? 20 A: No. 21 Q: No? 22 A: No. 23 Q: You didn't see the vans the second 24 day? 25 A: No.

1 Q: You did not? 2 A: No. 3 Q: You were relying on what other people 4 told you? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Okay. And do you recall who the 7 people were that were there the second day with the 8 cameras and with the paper and pens or whatever to take 9 down the license plates? 10 A: The one (1) guy's name is the same 11 guy, he's from Kettle Point. If I ever -- I'll find his 12 name and I think the other person was Randy Hill 13 (phonetic). 14 Q: I'm really having a hard time hearing 15 you, I'm sorry. 16 A: The same guy that told me in the first 17 place, he was one of them. 18 Q: Right. 19 A: And the other person was Randy Hill. 20 Q: Randy Hill? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And who's Randy Hill? 23 A: Just a guy. He's from Oneida. 24 Q: Okay. And they gave Randy Hill and 25 this Kettle Point person gave you the information about

1 the license plates? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Okay. And what did you do with it 4 after you got the information about the license plates? 5 A: I gave it to Anishnaabeg police. 6 Q: And who did you give it to? 7 A: I do not know. 8 Q: And was it one of the -- did you give 9 it to the person on that very day? 10 Sorry, did you give the license plate 11 number or numbers to the Anishnaabeg police the same day 12 that the van was there? 13 A: No. No. 14 Q: That is the second day? 15 A: The second day. 16 Q: Yeah, the second day. So you gave it 17 to the police that very same day? 18 A: The second day. No. 19 Q: The second day? 20 A: I got them and I had them for a whole 21 day. 22 Q: Okay. So the day after? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: Okay. And was it one of the 25 Anishnaabeg police that was on patrol?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Okay. And what did you do when you 3 gave that person the license plate numbers? 4 What did you say? 5 A: I -- I asked if he could run the plate 6 numbers and get whatever information he could for me. 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: But I also told him why. So whoever 9 it was, if you can -- I think you have a way to find out 10 who it was, he'll verify everything I'm saying. 11 Q: Okay. And what happened after that? 12 A: He come back that night. 13 Q: That same night? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: So the day after, he