1 2 3 IPPERWASH PUBLIC INQUIRY 4 5 6 7 ******************** 8 9 10 BEFORE: THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE SIDNEY LINDEN, 11 COMMISSIONER 12 13 14 15 16 Held at: Forest Community Centre 17 Kimball Hall 18 Forest, Ontario 19 20 21 ******************** 22 23 24 April 5th, 2005 25

2
  1                        Appearances
  2  Derry Millar      )             Commission Counsel
  3  Susan Vella        )
  4  Donald Worme, Q. C )
  5  Katherine Hensel  )
  6  Jodi-Lynn Waddilove )   
  7  
  8  Murray Klippenstein )  (np)      The Estate of Dudley 
  9  Vilko Zbogar       )   (np)     George and George
 10  Andrew Orkin       )   (np)     Family Group
 11  Basil Alexander    )            Student-at-Law
 12  
 13  Peter Rosenthal  )   (np)       Aazhoodena and George
 14  Jackie Esmonde   )              Family Group
 15  
 16  Anthony Ross     )              Residents of 
 17  Kevin Scullion   )   (np)       Aazhoodena  (Army Camp)
 18  
 19  William Henderson )   (np)       Kettle Point & Stony
 20  Jonathon George  )   (np)       Point First Nation
 21  Colleen Johnson   )
 22  
 23  Kim Twohig       )   (np)       Government of Ontario
 24  Walter Myrka     )   (np)
 25  Susan Freeborn   )

3
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  Janet Clermont   )              Municipality of 
  3  David Nash       )   (np)       Lambton Shores
  4  
  5  Peter Downard    )              The Honourable Michael
  6  Bill Hourigan    )   (np)       Harris
  7  Jennifer McAleer )
  8  
  9  Ian Smith        )   (Np)       Robert Runciman
 10  Alice Mrozek     )   (np)
 11  Harvey Stosberg  )   (np)       Charles Harnick
 12  Jacqueline Horvat )   (np)
 13  Douglas Sulman, Q.C. )           Marcel Beaubien
 14  Trevor Hinnegan     ) (np)
 15  
 16  Mark Sandler       ) (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 17  Andrea Tuck-Jackson )            Ontario Provincial Police
 18  Leslie Kaufman     )  (np)
 19  
 20  Ian Roland       )   (np)       Ontario Provincial 
 21  Karen Jones      )              Police Association &
 22  Debra Newell     )   (np)       K. Deane
 23  Ian McGilp       )   (np)
 24  Annie Leeks      )   (np)
 25

4
  1                   APPEARANCES (cont'd)
  2  
  3  Julian Falconer  )   (np)       Aboriginal Legal 
  4  Brian Eyolfson   )              Services of Toronto
  5  Julian Roy       )   (np)
  6  Clem Nabigon     )   (np)
  7  Adriel Weaver     )   (np)       Student-at-Law
  8  
  9  Al J.C. O'Marra  )              Office of the Chief
 10  Robert Ash, Q.C. )    (np)       Coroner
 11  
 12  William Horton   )   (np)       Chiefs of Ontario
 13  Matthew Horner   )
 14  Kathleen Lickers )   (Np)
 15  Megan Mackey     )
 16  
 17  Mark Frederick   )   (np)       Christopher Hodgson
 18  Craig Mills      )   (np)
 19  
 20  David Roebuck    )              Debbie Hutton
 21  Anna Perschy     )   (np)
 22  Melissa Panjer   )
 23  Danya Cohen-Nehemia ) (np)
 24  
 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 Page 3 Exhibits 6 4 5 LAYTON HARLEY ELIJAH, Affirmed 6 Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 8 7 8 Discussion 163 9 10 Continued Examination-In-Chief by Ms. Susan Vella 186 11 Cross-Examination by Ms. Jackie Esmonde 197 12 Cross-Examination by Ms. Colleen Johnson 200 13 Cross-Examination by Ms. Susan Freeborn 206 14 Cross-Examination by Mr. Peter Downard 226 15 Cross-Examination by Mr. David Roebuck 266 16 17 Certificate of Transcript 290 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 EXHIBITS 2 No. Description Page 3 P-320 Bell telephone account number 4 519-652-5103 September 16/'95 pages 5 3 to 6 listing calls from 08/18/'95 6 to 09/15/'95 82 7 P-321 Document 1001772, 95-PFD-130, 8 12 Avenue 96, 3 Silver casings 9 turned over to Investigator Jim 10 Kennedy by Layton Elijah. 133 11 P-322 Document 1008977 e-mail November 24/'95 12 01:18 p.m., to Peter Sturdy from Les 13 Kobayasai, MNR-Parks & Recreation re: 14 Ipperwash Issue Meeting November 24/'95 158 15 P-323 Robert Isaac Interview with Mr. and 16 Mrs. Goldi video transcript 289 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: This Public Inquiry is 4 now in session, the Honourable Mr. Justice Linden 5 presiding. Please be seated. 6 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Good 7 morning, Ms. Vella. 8 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Good morning, 9 Commissioner. The next witness for the Commission is 10 Layton Elijah. 11 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. Elijah, 12 how are you this morning, sir? 13 MR. LAYTON ELIJAH: Good morning. (NATIVE 14 LANGUAGE SPOKEN) 15 THE REGISTRAR: Do you prefer to swear on 16 the Bible, affirm, or use an alternate oath, sir? 17 MR. LAYTON ELIJAH: Affirm. 18 THE REGISTRAR: You have the eagle 19 feather there? 20 MR. LAYTON ELIJAH: Yes, I do. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Very good. Could you 22 state your name in full for us, please? 23 MR. LAYTON ELIJAH: Layton Harley Elijah. 24 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 25

1 LAYTON HARLEY ELIJAH, Affirmed: 2 3 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 4 Q: Mr. Elijah, I understand that you 5 were born on August the 21st, 1950? 6 A: Yes, I was. 7 Q: And your current residence is the 8 Oneida of the Thames First Nation Territory? 9 A: Yes, it is. 10 Q: I understand that you were formerly a 11 resident at the lands that were known as Camp Ipperwash 12 and Ipperwash Park? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And when did you commence your 15 residence there? 16 A: On September the 8th, 1995 until 17 September 15th, 2004. 18 Q: Where did you stay on that -- on that 19 territory? 20 A: Inside the Park. 21 Q: Do you remember what -- what building 22 you stayed at? 23 A: I think it was called the implement 24 shed or -- 25 Q: The maintenance shed?

1 A: The maintenance shed. 2 Q: Okay. I understand that you were 3 also -- you are a member of the Oneida of the Thames? 4 A: Yes, I am. 5 Q: And does your nation have any sister 6 nations? 7 A: Yes, we do. 8 Q: How many? 9 A: We have six (6) -- five (5) others. 10 Q: All right. And I understand that 11 it's part of a confederacy? 12 A: Yes, Iroquois Confederacy. 13 Q: I'm sorry? 14 A: The Iroquois Confederacy. 15 Q: Thank you. What is Oneida's 16 relationship with the other five (5) nations within this 17 confederacy? 18 A: We are the younger brother to the 19 Mohawk. 20 Q: And what does that mean, "the younger 21 brother" to the Mohawk nation? 22 A: They're the one that established this 23 and founded this and we're the ones -- first ones that 24 come on board and recognized it and went along with them. 25 Q: All right. So in other words, the

1 Mohawk Nation established the concept of a confederacy 2 and your First Nation joined it? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And to your understanding does the 5 Mohawk Nation have a society called a Warrior Society? 6 A: It does. 7 Q: Can you just briefly describe your 8 understanding of the function of that Society, if you're 9 aware of that? 10 A: To my knowledge the Warrior Society 11 was founded in the late '80's and it was due to the way 12 they were being treated on their homelands and they 13 wanted to stand up and speak back. 14 And it was a bunch of young men and women 15 that got together and just more or less put their foot 16 down and trying to change the course of time for their 17 people. 18 Q: When you say "their people," are you 19 referring to the Mohawk people? 20 A: To the Mohawk people. 21 Q: Does this Warrior Society have any 22 formal relationship with the Oneida Nation? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Does the Oneida Nation have its own 25 association with similar objectives?

1 A: Similar? 2 Q: Okay. And what organization is that? 3 A: No. I mean, what did you mean by 4 "similar"? 5 Q: An association of men and women who 6 have similar objectives to the ones that you attributed 7 to the Mohawk Warrior Society? 8 A: Not really. No, I -- I just think 9 everybody's like that. 10 Q: Okay. 11 A: Nothing recognized anyway. 12 Q: I understand that -- we've heard some 13 evidence at least that the Oneida Nation has an 14 association called the Peacekeepers? 15 A: Yes, we do. 16 Q: Are you a member of the Peacekeepers? 17 A: Yes, I am. 18 Q: And how long have you been a member 19 of the Peacekeepers? 20 A: Since it's -- since it's founding. 21 Q: When was it founded? 22 A: In 1984. 23 Q: Can you describe generally why it was 24 founded and what the general objectives of the 25 Peacekeepers is?

12
  1                 A:   Our people were taken off the reserve
  2  by OPP in Beaton and let go and made to walk back all
  3  kinds of weather and even if they were just drinking. 
  4  They would be taken off, let go, not nice and made it
  5  back home and they used to complain and complain and
  6  complain.
  7                 Finally they took it into the Long House
  8  and asked if some people could take care of this and try
  9  and stop it.  Our treatment -- we were being treated
 10  unfairly.
 11                 Q:   And how does one become a Peacekeeper
 12  at Oneida?
 13                 A:   I don't really know.
 14                 Q:   Okay.  How did you become a member?
 15                 A:   I just asked.
 16                 Q:   Who did you ask?
 17                 A:   The council.
 18                 Q:   The council at the Long House?
 19                 A:   Yes.
 20                 Q:   Can you describe the general
 21  organizational structure of Oneida and in particular the
 22  roles and composition of Oneida's Long House?
 23                 A:   It's composed of nine (9) chiefs,
 24  nine (9) clan mothers, there's faith keepers and the
 25  people.

1 Q: And the? 2 A: The people. 3 Q: The people, okay. Can you describe 4 the function of the -- the nine (9) clan mothers and how 5 that the clan component functions in the society? 6 A: If there's any problems or anything 7 like that, it first goes to the clan mothers to see if 8 they can sort it out because they have such high respect 9 in the community that everybody listens to the women, 10 especially the clan mothers. 11 And if she can't handle it, she will tell 12 her chief. And if her chief sees that it needs to go 13 farther, then it goes to the secretary and the secretary 14 calls together the rest of the chiefs. 15 Q: All right. And then that's when the 16 Council is called together? 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: And what are the clans that comprise 19 the Oneida? 20 A: There's the Bear Clan, the Turtle 21 Clan and the Wolf Clan. 22 Q: And what clan do you belong to? 23 A: The Wolf. 24 Q: And what distinguishes your clan from 25 the Bear and Turtle clans, in terms of functions within

1 the Oneida society? 2 A: We hold all the -- all the roles of 3 security, guidance, steering, and just holding it 4 together. 5 Q: Now, going back to your own role as a 6 peacekeeper, first of all, is this something that you 7 would have consulted with your clan mother concerning; 8 that is, being appointed as a peacekeeper? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: And then it goes up to the Council 11 for approval? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: Can you tell me what are your main -- 14 what have been your main roles within the Oneida 15 territory as a peacekeeper? 16 A: Well, I -- I'm in charge of policing, 17 all the EMS care, ambulance, anything that comes onto the 18 reserve being non-native, I bring them on, secure them 19 and watch them leave. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: Including OPP. 22 Q: Is it fair to describe your role, 23 then, as a liaison between the First Nations people at 24 Oneida and various policing and emergency services? 25 A: Yes, for sure.

1 Q: How long have you acted as a liaison? 2 A: Since 1990. 3 Q: Do you continue to discharge this 4 function? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And what types of situations would 7 you typically be involved in that would require the 8 presence of the OPP at your territory? 9 A: Anytime they call. The OPP call me 10 first and tell me of the situation that they were called 11 upon and then we get together. We meet on the end of the 12 reserve and then we go in, whether it be a warrant or -- 13 or an assault or -- I just let them do their business. 14 Q: All right. Can you describe your -- 15 the nature of your relations with the OPP generally, 16 during the course of your interactions with them at your 17 territory as a liaison? 18 A: Excellent. 19 Q: And so these have been constructive 20 relations that you've had -- 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: -- since 1990? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And on to today? 25 A: On to today.

1 Q: And is it fair to say that -- that 2 you have built a level of trust with the OPP in that 3 capacity? 4 A: Very much so. 5 Q: Now, as a Peacekeeper, did you have 6 any involvement with Aboriginal disputes prior to 1995 7 and the Ipperwash situation? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Can you tell me what disputes you 10 were involved in -- with? 11 A: I went to Oka and Kahnawake. 12 Q: And when was that? 13 A: 1990. 14 Q: And can you tell me at what point in 15 time during the course of that event you came? 16 A: I -- I -- I got to Kahnawake first in 17 July after everything took place and the bridge was taken 18 over and I was sent there to monitor the situation and to 19 try to keep the peace inside the Camp, so nobody flies 20 off the handle. 21 Q: Okay. 22 A: And then from there, there was 23 starting to be a buildup at Oka and I -- and it was 24 getting too big and there was no leadership, so they 25 asked me to take that role and be the head peacekeeper

1 within the peace camp right outside of Oka. 2 Q: And how long did you function as the 3 head peacekeeper within the Oka camp? 4 A: Right until the day it dissolved. 5 Q: And you said that you were sent to 6 Kahnawake. Who sent you? 7 A: Council. 8 Q: And is there a process that must be 9 followed before you can accept a request or position to - 10 - as a peacekeeper to go out of the community? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: Can you describe what that process 13 is? 14 A: Someone has to come from that said 15 community with a wampum, not by telephone or mail, it has 16 to be in person, and they give their situation. They 17 tell the chiefs, clan mothers, what their situation is 18 and then they meet and then call us in for the end of the 19 meeting, and from there, they decide whether we would be 20 helpful or not. 21 Q: And do they define, that is the 22 Council, does the Council set parameters on the ways in 23 which you are permitted to assist in these situations? 24 A: Oh, yeah. Yeah, they always give me 25 direction on how -- what my role will be and how far I

1 can take it. 2 Q: All right, and for example, with 3 respect to Oka, what type of direction were you given? 4 A: I was given the direction just to 5 keep the crowd ruly. 6 Q: Keep the crowd? 7 A: Ruly, so they won't blow up and go 8 into that military -- the Army was right there, the SQ 9 was on the other side and then the KKK were directly 10 right across from us, so it was a tense situation where I 11 had to keep them calm. 12 Q: All right, so you -- your interaction 13 at Oka was with the aboriginal people inside the camp and 14 it was to try to keep things calm within the camp itself? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Did you have any direct interaction 17 with any members of any of the policing services or the 18 military? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Did you perform any investigative 21 role there? 22 A: No. 23 Q: And are there -- are there certain 24 bottom line principles which you must adhere to, and 25 which you require the others to adhere to when you go

19
  1  into a peacekeeping situation?
  2                 A:   Yes.  No drugs, no alcohol, no women
  3  and most of all, no firearms.
  4                 Q:   And why is that?  Why are those --
  5  well, firstly, who sets those bottom line parameters?
  6                 A:   The secretary.
  7                 Q:   The secretary of the Council at
  8  Oneida?
  9                 A:   Yes. 
 10                 Q:   All right.  And -- all right.  Now,
 11  it's returning to the Long House itself, are you a member
 12  -- oh, let me ask you this:  were you involved in any
 13  other aboriginal disputes outside of your territory prior
 14  to 1995?
 15                 A:   I was in Brantford for a day or two
 16  (2) for their bingo.  I was in Washington at -- for the
 17  Oneida over in New York, that's about it.
 18                 Q:   All right, now you said -- let me
 19  just follow up on that.  Brantford, that was -- was that
 20  at the Six Nations in Brantford?
 21                 A:   Yes. 
 22                 Q:   You said "for a day or two (2)", with
 23  respect to the -- did you say bingo games?
 24                 A:   Yes, they were exercising their
 25  sovereignty.

1 Q: All right, by -- by running bingo 2 games within the territory? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And were they receiving flack from -- 5 from any agency as a result? 6 A: Oh yeah. 7 Q: And so you were there to do what? 8 A: Keep the peace. 9 Q: Again, keep the peace within the 10 community itself? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: And when was that? 13 A: I can't remember the correct date. 14 Q: Okay, and with respect to Washington, 15 can you tell us what your role was there? 16 A: Pretty near the same thing, just to 17 keep the people in line and -- because we were there at - 18 - at the main buildings there in Washington, just to make 19 sure nothing happened, because there was other protesters 20 all around us. Just had to stay together and -- 21 Q: You -- 22 A: -- make sure everybody made it home. 23 Q: And just -- can you tell me what the 24 nature of that dispute was? 25 A: It was -- there were some land

1 rights, land claims. 2 Q: In relation to what... 3 A: Oneida Nation. 4 Q: Sorry? 5 A: Oneida Nation. 6 Q: Okay. And was there an occupation of 7 some sort? 8 A: No, no. 9 Q: And how long were you there and when 10 were you there? 11 A: It was 1986, about four (4) days. 12 Q: And you mentioned something about New 13 York, was that a different involvement? 14 A: New York -- that was for the New York 15 Oneidas. 16 Q: And so the same dispute as -- 17 A: Yes. 18 Q: -- the Washington one? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. Were there any such 21 events that you attended? 22 A: Well, in New York, too; at Oneida New 23 York. I was there for a week or two (2) just as a 24 liaison. I -- I was a runner at that time. That was in 25 1988.

1 Q: All right. 2 A: I was a runner for about two (2) 3 weeks, just... 4 Q: And what is the -- what is the 5 function of a runner? 6 A: That's just to take messages in 7 person back and forth; we don't use telephones. 8 Q: Back and -- between what entities? 9 A: Between the Oneida Nation of the 10 Thames and the Oneida Nation New York. 11 Q: Okay. In relation to your Oneida 12 Nation of the Thames and the long house itself, are you a 13 member of its council? 14 A: No, I'm not. 15 Q: Were you, at any time, a member of 16 its council? 17 A: You mean the Chief's Council or 18 something? 19 Q: The Chief -- as I understand it, you 20 have the nine (9) chiefs and the nine (9) clan mothers. 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: We'll rule out the clan mothers, but 23 yeah, the chiefs? 24 A: Oh, no, no, no. 25 Q: Okay. Were you a member of the

1 council, then, in the sense of the -- the people 2 component of it? 3 A: Oh, yes. 4 Q: All right. And all the members of 5 Oneida are, in that sense, the members of the council? 6 A: Yes, yeah. 7 Q: But the only ones who have any 8 decision-making power are who? 9 A: Are the nine (9) chiefs. 10 Q: The nine (9) chiefs? Okay, thank 11 you. Did you have occasion to visit what was then known 12 as Camp Ipperwash, prior to September of 1995? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And how many occasions? 15 A: One (1). 16 Q: Do you recall approximately when this 17 occurred? 18 A: In May of 1995. 19 Q: All right, and that would be prior to 20 the occupation of the built-up area? 21 A: Oh, yeah. 22 Q: What was the purpose of attending? 23 A: A guy by the name of Bert Manning 24 come to visit me and told me how they were living and 25 they asked for some donations and asked me to go just see

1 what it's like out there and to see if I lived in -- in 2 any of those conditions before. 3 Q: Okay. And did anything transpire? 4 How -- how long were you there? 5 A: About an hour. 6 Q: An hour? Okay. And what did you do 7 while you were there? 8 A: I didn't get to meet none of the 9 people, nobody was home. We drove to the beach and 10 nobody was around, so we left. 11 Q: Okay. And you say, "we." Who else 12 was with you? 13 A: Just him and I. 14 Q: Mr. Manning and yourself? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. Were you present at all 17 at the initial entry in -- by the -- the Stoney Point 18 Group members in May of 1993? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Were you present at the initial 21 occupation of the built-up area of Camp Ipperwash on July 22 29th, 1995? 23 A: No. 24 Q: Were you consulted by any of the 25 Occupants as to their plans or intentions to occupy Camp

1 Ipperwash? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Were you present at the initial entry 4 into the Ipperwash Provincial Park on September the 4th, 5 1995? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Were you present at the Park at any 8 time between September 4th and 6th, 1995? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Similarly, were you present at the 11 Army Camp at any time between September 4th and 6th? 12 A: No. 13 Q: Do you recall where you were on 14 September the 4th, 1995? 15 A: Yes, I do, I was home. 16 Q: And home was at Oneida? 17 A: At Oneida. 18 Q: When did you first learn of the 19 occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park? 20 A: I think it was on that day. 21 Q: And how did you learn of it? 22 A: First of all I had a visit by a man 23 who claimed to be a newspaper reporter named Jim Moses. 24 He said he represented the St. Catherine's Standard, I 25 would think.

1 And he told me something along them lines 2 that Natives were taking over some park. 3 Q: Was he more specific with respect to 4 what park? Or did you have an understanding as to what 5 park? 6 A: Ipperwash -- 7 Q: The Ipperwash Provincial Park? 8 A: Provincial Park. 9 Q: And at what time of day was this 10 conversation approximately? 11 A: Between 2:30 and three o'clock. I 12 was cutting grass, cleaning my lawnmower when I see this 13 gentleman pull up and park on the road and I kind of 14 thought something was fishy because he wouldn't come up - 15 - drive up. He parked on the road and walked up and 16 asked if I was Layton and I told him I was. 17 And he told me who he was and then he went 18 onto say that there was Oneidas in Ipperwash Park. Could 19 I go and get them out of there? And I said, No. Why? 20 And he said there's a bunch of Natives, they got AK47's 21 and mini 14's and AR-15's. 22 And they're going to battle with the cops. 23 And I go, Why, you're crazy man. I said they're just out 24 there fishing. And he goes no they're not. And I said, 25 how did you know? And he says from my police

1 intelligence from police inside the Park. 2 And I go, Holy. And you're a reporter? 3 And he goes, Yes, I am. So then I said, Why are you 4 telling me this? He said because I -- I just come 5 speaking with your Chief, meaning the Band Chief. Who at 6 that time was Harry Doxtator. 7 And I said, Well what did he say then? 8 And he said that you were the man to talk to because the 9 guys at the Ipperwash camp won't listen to him, they 10 would listen to me. And I just took it as whatever, just 11 hearsay from this man I, you know, barely knew. 12 And he went onto say that if I didn't get 13 the Oneidas out, that they were -- they were going to 14 probably be dead. He said because the guns that the 15 Natives have, the police have more. They have the same 16 high power, but they have better and they have more and 17 it will be just like shooting fish in a barrel. 18 And I go, Holy shit. What are you talking 19 about man? And then he went on to say that this was the 20 last time he's going to tell me and he said, The shit's 21 going to hit the fan. And he started walking away and I 22 said, Are you really a reporter? I was getting made. 23 And he goes, No, I'm -- I'm a member of 24 the OPP. And I go, Oh. He walked away and left. So I 25 phoned the secretary and told him what I just heard and

1 he goes, Ah, that guy's been here. We can't believe 2 anything he says. So we never, until the 6th. 3 Q: All right. Well, before we proceed 4 to the 6th, I just want to explore this -- this 5 conversation a little bit more with you. You said that 6 you barely knew him? Had you met Mr. Moses before? 7 A: Yes, I did. 8 Q: And can you tell me when and what the 9 circumstances of that was? 10 A: It was in 1992. He come to our 11 Nation and asked for a meeting with all the chiefs and 12 chiefs and clan mothers. Both sides, both Band and like 13 the elected side and the Long House chiefs and with 14 myself present. 15 And it was over the Oka thing, the 16 aftermath, and they wanted to know if Oneida had any of 17 the guns and he wanted to write a story on how we were 18 doing after all our involvement in Oka. 19 And at that time, I asked for a copy of 20 that newspaper because he was directing the questions all 21 the time at me, and I asked him for a report, I asked him 22 for that newspaper and he said, We'll send it, I'll send 23 everybody a copy here. 24 We never, ever did get it, so I didn't 25 believe him too much after that.

1 Q: All right, and when you say 2 "newspaper", you asked for a copy of the article that he 3 was going to write? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And did you ever see the article? 6 A: No. 7 Q: And you indicated that he -- that you 8 said that -- that the -- that the Oneidas down at the 9 Park were just fishing? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: First of all, were there any members 12 from your First Nation at the Park, to your knowledge, on 13 the 4th of September? 14 A: To my knowledge, there were just two 15 (2), but I guess there was more than that. 16 Q: Well, to your knowledge, who was down 17 at the Park from your Nation? 18 A: To my knowledge, there was Buck and 19 Gabe. 20 Q: And what are their last names? 21 A: Doxtator, both of them. 22 Q: Okay. How did you know they were at 23 the Park? 24 A: Because they were coming back selling 25 fish.

1 Q: They were coming back and selling 2 fish? 3 A: Yeah. 4 Q: When did they come back? 5 A: A couple of days a week. 6 Q: All right, are you indicating that 7 they had been making routine trips down to the Park? 8 A: Yeah, like -- like twice a week or 9 something, yeah. 10 Q: And they were bringing back fish? 11 A: Yeah. 12 Q: And you saw that? 13 A: Oh, yeah, and I heard about it. 14 Q: Were they going to other places to 15 fish during that time, too? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Okay. And you said that, when you 18 asked him how he knew about the assault weapons that he 19 described to you, he said it was based on police 20 intelligence? 21 A: Yes, based on police intelligence 22 inside the Park. 23 Q: Did he actually use that term with 24 you? 25 A: Yeah.

1 Q: All right, and what did you 2 understand from that term? 3 A: I thought he was just lying. I never 4 believe nothing. 5 Q: Hmm hmm. And why didn't you believe 6 him? 7 A: Because it sounded farfetched, 8 because guys were fishing. Why would they need an AK-47? 9 Q: Now, you said that he was -- he 10 indicated that he was a member of the OPP? 11 A: The OPP or ex-OPP. 12 Q: Sorry? 13 A: Ex. 14 Q: What did he say? 15 A: I asked him, I says, Are you really a 16 reporter? And he stopped and turned around and he says, 17 No, I'm an ex-OPP. 18 Q: Did you have any knowledge as to 19 whether or not he was telling the truth? 20 A: No. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 Q: Do you have any -- did you take any 25 steps to determine for yourself as to whether or not what

1 he said was true, either in terms of him being an ex-OPP 2 officer -- 3 A: Oh, no. 4 Q: -- or in terms of his information 5 that there were assault weapons at the Park? 6 A: No. 7 Q: Was anyone else present at this 8 conversation? 9 A: No. 10 Q: Approximately how long did this 11 conversation take place? 12 A: About ten (10) minutes. 13 Q: And you said that towards the end, 14 you were getting angry. What were you getting angry at? 15 A: Because I start remembering who he 16 was and I didn't really want to speak to him. 17 Q: Did you ask him for any 18 identification, showing that, for example, he used to be 19 allegedly a police officer? 20 A: No. 21 Q: Did you have any further contact with 22 Mr. Moses? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: When was that? 25 A: I would say -- I seen him in the

1 garage at Ipperwash about August 14th, 15th, 16th 2 something like that. I seen him in a garage and -- 3 Q: What year? 4 A: '95. 5 Q: And where was the garage? 6 A: I mean September -- September. 7 Q: Sorry? 8 A: September of 1995. 9 Q: All right. Which dates in September? 10 A: The second week I was there. 11 Q: Okay. So, this after the events of 12 September the 6th? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And when you say it was in a garage, 15 a garage located where? 16 A: On Stoney Point Territory. 17 Q: In the Park or the Camp? 18 A: The Camp. 19 Q: Okay. And did you have further 20 discussions with him at that time? 21 A: Not at that time, no, I just looked 22 at him and I knew who he was and I drove away. 23 Q: All right. Did you have any further 24 discussions with Mr. Moses with respect to this 25 conversation that you have reported about on -- that

1 occurred on September 4th? 2 A: Yes, later on about November or maybe 3 even into the next year he kept phoning my wife and 4 leaving his number for me to contact him, so I did. I 5 asked him, What's up? What does he want with me and he 6 said the police are treating him wrong; they're not 7 paying him for his services and he wanted to tell me what 8 was going on, what he knew. 9 Q: Now -- now when you say the -- you 10 said the police weren't paying him for his services, did 11 he advise you as to what services? 12 A: That he was an informant, he was an 13 informant. 14 Q: Sorry? 15 A: He was an informant for the OPP. 16 Q: And did he tell you in connection 17 with what work he allegedly did? 18 A: He was gathering information on all 19 Natives in -- across Ontario or even Canada. 20 Q: And did he say what organization he 21 was allegedly working for, providing the services for? 22 A: CSIS. 23 Q: All right. Okay. Now, going back to 24 September the 4th of 1995, you indicated that you -- you 25 did contact someone from your community after this

1 conversation? 2 A: Yes, I phoned a secretary -- 3 Q: All right. 4 A: -- and told him. 5 Q: And what was his name? 6 A: Howard Elijah. Excuse me. 7 Q: And what's his function as secretary? 8 A: He gets all -- he gets all the 9 debris. He gets all the phone calls. He gets 10 everything, he's a very busy man. 11 Q: Does he -- does he, for example, 12 organize council meetings? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: And set agendas, things like that? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. And is he someone that 17 you would -- you would contact if you had a concern that 18 maybe needed to be brought to the attention of the 19 council? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And is that why you called him 22 on this occasion? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And you said his response was... 25 A: We know that guy, he's just a liar,

1 just let it go. 2 Q: All right. Did you pursue the matter 3 any further with anyone else within the community? 4 A: No, just my wife. 5 Q: Do you know where Mr. Moses currently 6 resides? 7 A: Either in Six Nations or Brantford or 8 St. Catharines. 9 Q: Are you aware as to whether or not 10 Mr. Moses brought his claims to the -- the media? 11 A: Yes, he did. 12 Q: All right. Okay. Now, had you been 13 consulted in advance of the occupation of the Park by 14 anyone from the Stoney Point Group -- 15 A: No. 16 Q: -- or -- or from Buck or Gabriel 17 Doxtator in relation to plans or an intention to occupy 18 the Park? 19 A: No. 20 Q: Now, was either of Buck or Gabriel 21 Doxtator, were they at the Park under -- under some 22 official authority of the long house? 23 A: I -- I don't know. 24 Q: All right. Is that something that 25 you would expect to have been apprised of given your

1 later role? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: All right. And so, you don't -- do 4 you have any information which suggests that they were 5 there in a -- in a particular role on behalf of the Long 6 House? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Okay. Now did you have any contact 9 with anyone, any of the occupants or anyone from the Park 10 at any time between September 4th and 6th, 1995? 11 A: No. 12 Q: You indicate -- did you have any more 13 involvement in this -- in the -- did you have any 14 involvement in this matter at any time between September 15 4th and 6th? 16 A: No. 17 Q: Do you -- at some point in time did 18 you receive any telephone calls originating which you 19 believe originated from the Park? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: Can you tell me first of all, 22 approximately how many telephone calls you received and 23 when? 24 A: I would say three (3), and then I 25 called once.

1 Q: Three (3) telephone calls that you 2 received? 3 A: Yeah, collect. 4 Q: Collect? Okay. Dealing with the 5 first telephone call then, can you tell me when, 6 approximately, you received that telephone call? 7 A: It was about ten (10) to 11:00. 8 Q: And how can you be certain of that 9 time? 10 A: Because of what he told me, I looked 11 at the clock and I said, Oh, I can still watch it on the 12 news. 13 Q: Okay. Watch what on the news? 14 A: What was going on. 15 Q: At the Park? 16 A: At the Park. 17 Q: Who called you? 18 A: Gabe Doxtator called me. But when 19 the operator told me they said it was a Buck Doxtator 20 calling collect. And I accepted the call and when I 21 said, Hello, it was Gabe. 22 Q: Okay. So the operator, first of all, 23 initiated the call? 24 A: Well, you know, when I pick -- yeah. 25 Q: Yeah, okay. Or at least the first

1 person you talked to was an operator? 2 A: Yeah, it was the operator. 3 Q: And said there was a collect call 4 from a Buck Doxtator? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: Right. And you accepted the charges? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And when you were connected it was 9 Gabriel? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And where were you when you received 12 this telephone call? 13 A: I was home. 14 Q: And do you know, did Mr. Doxtator 15 tell you where he was? 16 A: Oh, yeah. 17 Q: What did he tell you? 18 A: He said he was at Ipperwash and he 19 said that they were getting beat up by the police. And I 20 said, For what? And he went, I don't know, they are just 21 kicking the shit out of us. We're outnumbered here. 22 And I go, Well, what did you do? You had 23 to do something. You know, tell me man, what's going on? 24 Because he was breathing heavy and was nervous and scared 25 or something. So I had a tendency to believe him right

1 away. 2 And he said, We need help man, help us. 3 And he said, Here, talk to Buck. So Buck got on the 4 phone and he says, Yeah man, he says, They already come 5 in once and it looks like they're coming again. 6 He said, We need help. Gotta go. Bang 7 and he hung up. That's about the extent of the first 8 phone call. 9 Q: And you said that when Mr. Gabriel 10 Doxtator said something to the affect that they were 11 being beaten up, that you asked why, what did you do? 12 A: Yeah. 13 Q: And why did you ask that? 14 A: Because you don't get beat up for 15 nothing. 16 Q: Okay. 17 A: And at least as far as I know. 18 Q: Okay. All right. And did you make 19 any response to either Gabriel or Buck with respect to 20 their suggestion that they needed help? 21 A: Yes, I did. I said, What I can do is 22 I can take it to Council and see what they suggest. He 23 become mad. He said, Fuck you, and hung up. 24 Q: Okay. And during the course of this 25 conversation, this telephone conversation, could you hear

1 anything in the background? 2 A: The first phone call, I don't know if 3 it was the first one or the second one. Gabe said, Do 4 you hear all that? And I go, Yeah. He goes, That's the 5 cops. He said, They're acting like fucking kids, because 6 I could hear all kinds of hollering in the background. 7 Q: Hollering? 8 A: Hollering. 9 Q: Could you hear any words? 10 A: No, not plain, no. 11 Q: Just a lot of hollering? 12 A: Just a lot -- a lot of hollering, 13 noise. And I think it was the second call, and Buck got 14 on the phone again. He said, Get some guys together, 15 come on down right away, quick, they're shooting at us 16 now, and they're shooting real bullets. They're using 17 real bullets, get some fucking guys together and get down 18 here. 19 And I repeated, I can't. I have to go the 20 proper procedure and he said, What the fuck you going to 21 wait for? Somebody to fucking die around here? You 22 fucking coward. 23 And I got kind of pissed off and I tried 24 to hold my cool. I said, I'm doing everything I can. 25 And we hung up.

1 Q: Now, approximately how much time had 2 elapsed as between the -- the end of the first call and 3 the beginning of the second call? 4 A: About five (5) minutes. 5 Q: And in the interim, had you -- did 6 you take any action or had you done anything in response 7 to receiving the first phone call? 8 A: Yes, I tried to phone the secretary, 9 which we all have to do. I tried to phone the secretary; 10 he wasn't home, I couldn't get through. So, I phoned the 11 OPP and the secretary on the OPP, a lady, who knew me 12 because I always made the calls on behalf of our nation, 13 and she just says, Oh, good evening, Layton, how are you 14 doing? 15 I said, All right. She says, How can I 16 help you tonight? And I said, I want to talk to anybody 17 around Camp Ipperwash wherever that is. I want to talk 18 to anybody in charge out that way. 19 And she goes, Well, there's no police 20 station out there, the closest one is Forest. Would you 21 like that number? 22 I said, Sure, just give me something. And 23 she says, Oh, did it happen already? And I goes, 24 Something happened, and I think you know. 25 And she said, Well, I got a better plan.

1 How about if I hot patch you right to the situation, 2 right to the command centre, right where it's going on. 3 Would you like that? 4 And I said, Sure, I would. So she did, 5 she hot patched me to the command centre and I talked to 6 Doug Babbitt. 7 Q: How do you know it was Doug Babbitt? 8 A: He identified himself and I asked him 9 two (2) more times. 10 Q: All right. 11 A: He identified him as Doug Babbitt, 12 command centre, OPP and I said, I want to talk to 13 whoever's in charge here. And he goes, I am. I said, 14 Are you sure you're in charge? 15 He goes, Yes, I am. Who is this? And I 16 go, Never mind who this is, I want to know who you are. 17 I said, What are you doing to our people out there? 18 And he goes, We're returning fire. 19 Returning fire? I says, That's a fucking lie. They 20 ain't got no guns out there. 21 He goes, who is this? And I go, never 22 mind who this is, I just need to know who you are. Why 23 are you doing that to our people? 24 He goes, As far as I know, they're just 25 shooting above their head, and just scaring them. And I

1 goes, Well, as far as you know, you're wrong. Are you 2 sure you're in charge? 3 And he goes, Yes, I am. Why do you want 4 to know? And I said, Because I want to know who I'm 5 going to be charging with murder in the morning. 6 And he said, Sorry, sir, I'm not the man 7 you want. The man you want is John Carson, and I said, 8 Well let me talk to John Carson. 9 He said, I can't do that. I go, Why not? 10 Because he's in the field. And I said, Well, he must 11 have communications with him if he's in charge. I want 12 to talk to him, I want this stopped right now. 13 And all he said was, I can pass a message 14 on. Who is this? He kept asking who I was and I 15 wouldn't answer what it was. 16 Q: Why not? 17 A: I was -- because of what I heard what 18 was going on, I was scared for myself and plus I knew -- 19 I knew it was being taped. 20 Q: How did you know that? 21 A: Because being involved with the OPP 22 and their communication centres, I know all the -- all 23 calls that go through there are taped. Anyways, we said 24 our goodbyes and I got one (1) more call from the place 25 and this time it was -- Gabe called again --

1 Q: All right, just -- just let me back 2 you up for a moment. Now, you said that -- initially I 3 thought you said this call happened in between the first 4 and second call. 5 Did it happen between the first and second 6 call or did it happen after the second call? 7 A: It happened after the second one, 8 because the third call, it was Larry French I was talking 9 to. 10 Q: Okay. And just before we get to the 11 third call, then, do you know approximately how long or 12 what time the call to Officer Babbitt was made at? 13 A: Right around 11:00, right -- right 14 quick. 15 Q: Okay. 16 A: Within minutes. 17 Q: And just so that I'm clear, what 18 number did you -- or what place did you initially call to 19 reach the female operator? 20 A: The London OPP. 21 Q: The London OPP Detachment? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And why did you call there? 24 A: That's where I -- I always call. 25 Q: In relation to your position as

1 liaison? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And you said that you were, "hot- 4 patched," what does that mean? 5 A: To my knowledge, that means a direct 6 line right straight through, right from point A to point 7 B. 8 Q: All right. 9 A: But she was in there on point A with 10 me. 11 Q: Meaning...? 12 A: Meaning she knew what was said all 13 along. 14 Q: She heard you -- 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: -- you believe she heard that 17 conversation -- 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: -- with Officer Babbitt? And why -- 20 how is it that you -- what's the basis of your belief 21 there? 22 A: That's what I believe that happens 23 there in that command centre -- 24 Q: Okay, is this -- 25 A: -- in that police building.

1 Q: This is an assumption on your part, 2 then? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And approximately how 5 long did the call with Officer Babbitt take place? 6 A: How long did it take? 7 Q: Yes. 8 A: About five (5) minutes. 9 Q: All right. And you said to him that 10 -- something to the effect of he would be charged with 11 murder or you were going to charge him with murder. 12 Why would you say something like that? 13 A: Because I thought I could. 14 Q: Sorry? 15 A: I thought I could. 16 Q: And what was the basis for you making 17 that statement? 18 A: I'm a peacekeeper; I'm recognized 19 through our territory and I think other Indian 20 territories. 21 Q: Yes, but I'm asking you what would be 22 the basis for you making such a statement to Officer 23 Babbitt? 24 A: Because I knew what was happening. I 25 believed those phone calls I got.

1 Q: All right. 2 A: That somebody was dying. 3 Q: Did anybody during the first -- 4 course of the first two (2) phone calls suggest to you 5 that somebody had been shot? 6 A: Oh, yeah, yeah, the second call. 7 Q: The second call? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Are you sure of that? 10 A: Yes, I'm sure of that, that's how I 11 knew -- the first call was just a fight and their coming 12 again and hung up. The second call was their shooting 13 with real bullets, no warning shots. 14 They didn't even say, Is there anybody 15 here we could talk to or nothing, there was no -- no form 16 of dealing back and forth, there was no negotiations, 17 nothing. 18 Q: Okay. In relation -- this is what 19 was reported to you? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And during the course of that second 22 phone call with Gabriel and Buck Doxtator, did you hear 23 anything in the background? 24 A: All I heard was loud noises going on. 25 I -- I can't say for sure, I don't want to get stuck.

1 Q: Okay. And you said after you had a 2 phone call with Officer Babbitt you received a third 3 phone call? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: All right. And approximately how 6 much -- how long after the call with Officer Babbitt? 7 A: I would say about between five (5) 8 and ten (10) minutes. 9 Q: All right. What transpired during 10 the course of the third phone call? 11 A: The third phone call was, they don't 12 think that -- that Dudley was going to make it, he looked 13 pretty bad, they need help and guns, anything, just help. 14 I couldn't help them. 15 Q: Who initiated the third phone call? 16 A: Gabe. 17 Q: All right. And what did he tell you? 18 A: He said it's worse. It's bad. He -- 19 he couldn't talk. He was, like I am, and it was real 20 believable so he said here's Dutchy he -- he can explain 21 it better. 22 Q: And Dutchy is Larry French. 23 A: Larry French. 24 Q: Yes. And was he from your Nation? 25 A: No.

1 Q: No. 2 A: He's from Muncey. 3 Q: Okay. 4 A: Dutchy says, they're telling the 5 truth. They're shooting real bullets. People are 6 getting shot here. We don't know if they're going to 7 come back. There's a gun, it's a .22, but they ain't no 8 good to nobody. It's got no bullets. We need help. We 9 need guns. We need -- we need -- we need bodies here. 10 Help us. 11 And I just said, Hey, I'll do what I can, 12 man. There was nothing I could do but call back to the 13 OPP again. So I did. 14 Q: You called the OPP a second time? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: All right. 17 A: Oh, that's -- yes, the second time. 18 I called Doug Babbitt again and this time he must have 19 knew who I was. I mean recognized my voice and he said, 20 Sir, I'm serious, we were just shooting above their heads 21 and I says, Well, two (2) missed. 22 I said for all the high tech you guys got, 23 you missed. You missed a whole bunch. He didn't say he 24 was sorry, he didn't say nothing. Just said it happened. 25 I wasn't feeling too good, I couldn't help the guys, too

1 far away. 2 Q: How -- how did you reach Doug 3 Babbitt. In other words, how did you know how to reach 4 him? 5 A: Through the OPP again. 6 Q: The London Detachment? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And do you know if you spoke to the 9 same operator? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And what precisely did Officer 12 Babbitt say to you in response to what you said? 13 A: Just that they were returning fire. 14 He kept saying that and he was sticking to his story. I 15 tried to tell him that I knew different and that we'd 16 meet again some day. 17 Q: You said that? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: And what did you mean? 20 A: That I would meet him some place, I 21 thought it would be a courtroom. 22 Q: And how long -- what was the length 23 of this telephone call? 24 A: It was shorter. Probably two (2) to 25 three (3) minutes.

1 Q: Now these telephone calls occurred 2 some ten (10) years ago. 3 Did you make any notes at the time of any 4 of these telephone calls? 5 A: No. 6 Q: All right. Have you been -- were you 7 interviewed by anyone from either the OPP or SIU or 8 anyone else in relation to these telephone calls? 9 A: Yes, the SIU. 10 11 (BRIEF PAUSE) 12 13 Q: Do you recall when you were 14 interviewed by the SIU in relation to these telephone 15 calls? 16 A: Do I remember when? 17 Q: Yes. 18 A: No. 19 Q: Do you remember who conducted the 20 interview? 21 A: I think it was Wayne Allen. 22 Q: Do you recall whether or not that 23 interview was taped? 24 A: A lot of mine were, yes. 25 Q: Now, I'm asking you these questions

1 because we do have an anticipated evidence statement that 2 appears to reflect an SIU interview of you, but it dealt 3 with the handing over of potential evidence. 4 Was there a separate interview? 5 A: Oh yes, there was many, yes. 6 Q: Okay. And approximately when was 7 this particular interview concerning the telephone calls 8 done, in relation to the September '95 events? 9 A: I think I told them on the first -- 10 first meeting, because it was so truthful and -- 11 Q: All right, but can you give me a 12 sense as to how long after September 6th this occurred? 13 A: About the 12th, 13th. 14 Q: Of September? 15 A: Yes. 16 Q: Did you ever see a copy of -- of any 17 transcript or statement reflecting this interview? 18 A: No. 19 Q: Okay. And you're quite certain that 20 it occurred, though? 21 A: Oh yes, it occurred more than once, 22 too. 23 Q: All right. And have you made any 24 notes about this converse -- these three (3) telephone 25 conversations with -- with Mr. Doxtator, Gabriel and Buck

1 and Dutchy or the calls with Officer Babbitt? 2 A: To the SIU? 3 Q: Yeah -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: No, well no, to -- 6 A: Well, no -- 7 Q: -- have you -- 8 A: To myself, no. 9 Q: Okay. So are you operating then, on 10 your memory -- 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: -- primarily? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Thank you. Now, after your -- then 15 your second phone call with that Officer Babbitt, what if 16 anything did you do? 17 A: The second phone call, it was short. 18 It was pretty well the same as the first phone call. But 19 the third phone call, it was different. It was -- he was 20 really blaming John Carson. 21 Q: Okay, you said there's a third phone 22 call with Officer Babbitt -- 23 A: Yes, a third one. 24 Q: -- now? 25 A: Yeah.

1 Q: And when -- when did that happen? 2 A: That happened about 12:30, one 3 o'clock in the morning. 4 Q: Who initiated that phone call? 5 A: I did. 6 Q: All right. And how did you -- how -- 7 how were you able to be connected with Officer Babbitt? 8 A: The same way. 9 Q: Through the operator at the London 10 Detachment? 11 A: Yes, but it wasn't from my house. 12 Q: Where was it from? 13 A: It was from a cell phone. 14 Q: Your cell phone? 15 A: No, someone else's cell phone. 16 Q: All right. Do you recall whose? 17 A: No, I don't. 18 Q: And what was the purpose of calling 19 Officer Babbitt a third time? 20 A: It's just that a lot of guys had 21 gathered and I don't know if they believed me or not. 22 Q: All right, so perhaps we can back up 23 for a moment then. You say a lot of guys had gathered, 24 my question was: What did you do, if anything, after 25 your second phone call with Officer Babbitt?

1 A: Nothing. 2 Q: All right. What guys had gathered? 3 A: Some of the Oneida people. 4 Q: Where -- where did they gather? 5 A: They gathered at, they called it the 6 smoke shop. 7 Q: And were you there? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And how did you know to go to the 10 smoke shop? 11 A: That's where we said we'd all meet. 12 Q: All right. So someone asked these 13 people to be there? 14 A: Yes, I phoned a couple of people and 15 everybody just phoned each other. 16 Q: Okay. In the meantime, did you make 17 further attempts to reach the secretary, Mr. Elijah, 18 Howard Elijah? 19 A: No. 20 Q: All right, and why not? 21 A: Because he was not available. 22 Q: Okay. Did you make any attempts to 23 reach any members of the Council, any of the chiefs or 24 the clan mothers? 25 A: No, it was getting late.

1 Q: All right. What was the purpose of 2 calling the individuals who then met at the smoke shop 3 with you? 4 A: I just wanted to give them a head's 5 up on what happened to all our brothers out that way. 6 Q: What did you report to them? 7 A: I reported that some guys were shot 8 and the OPP were beating the heck out of them and we 9 could be next. 10 Q: Now, what was the basis for your 11 statement that you could be next, that Oneida could be 12 next? 13 A: Because that's where all my calls 14 were coming -- all their calls into their -- to their 15 Command centre was coming from Oneida. 16 Q: Now, did any -- during -- did you 17 find out information concerning what individuals had been 18 allegedly shot during the course of any of those three 19 (3) phone calls you had earlier in the evening? 20 A: Just Dudley. 21 Q: All right. And when did you find out 22 that -- which -- during which telephone call? 23 A: The -- the second and the third was 24 the bad one, yeah. 25 Q: Okay. And the second phone call,

1 what was said about Dudley George? 2 A: That he was shot. 3 Q: And who told you that? 4 A: Gabe. 5 Q: And in the third telephone call, what 6 was said about Dudley George? 7 A: That he was gone, dead, that he was 8 gone. 9 Q: That he was deceased? 10 A: Yeah. 11 Q: And who told you that? 12 A: Both Gabe and Dutchy. 13 Q: And you're quite sure about that? 14 A: I'm positive about that. 15 Q: All right. And approximately how 16 many people, then, did you meet with at the smoke shop? 17 A: About twenty (20). 18 Q: And this was somewhere between 12:30 19 and 1:00 or... 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: Okay. And were they all men? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: And did you come to any plans or -- 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: And what plan did you design?

1 A: Well, there were some there that had 2 family inside of Ipperwash, brothers and stuff like that, 3 so they wanted to know if they were okay and what all 4 happened. 5 And we knew that people were gone to 6 hospitals and we didn't know which ones, so we sent guys, 7 meaning a couple of guys, a couple of cars to London -- 8 Victoria Hospital, we sent two (2) cars to Strathroy 9 Hospital and we sent two (2) cars to see how close they 10 could get to Camp Ipperwash. 11 The guys that went to London, Victoria 12 Hospital, never had no problems, but there was no -- 13 nobody there that had been shot. At Strathroy they 14 couldn't get close, couldn't do nothing there. The guys, 15 the two (2) cars that went to Ipperwash couldn't make it 16 and all returned and we met about 2:30 and then everybody 17 started knowing how real it was and... 18 Q: Did you go in any of these cars to 19 any of the locations? 20 A: No. 21 Q: You stayed behind? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Why? 24 A: I always do. I just -- that's what I 25 do, I just --

1 Q: All right. 2 A: -- give the orders. 3 Q: And -- and how did you find out about 4 the results of the efforts of the people who you sent out 5 to the various locations? 6 A: They all come back. 7 Q: They all came back? 8 A: Oh, yeah. 9 Q: And reported? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Approximately what time? 12 A: I'd say about an hour. 13 Q: All right. So, just give me a sense 14 there, are we talking 2:30, 3:00 -- 15 A: Yeah -- 16 Q: -- somewhere in that vicinity? 17 A: -- 2:30, yeah. 18 Q: All right. And the report you 19 received from the individuals who went to the Strathroy 20 Hospital was that they couldn't get close to the 21 hospital? 22 A: They couldn't get close to the 23 hospital. 24 Q: Did they tell you why? 25 A: There was too many OPP.

1 Q: And similarly, did the people tell 2 you why they couldn't get close to the Park? 3 A: Too many OPP. 4 Q: All right. And do you recall the 5 names of the individuals or any of them who went out to 6 these two (2) locations? 7 A: No. 8 Q: Now I take it from your earlier 9 testimony that these actions that you were taking were 10 not actions that were sanctioned or authorized by the 11 Long House? 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. So what was the basis for 14 your intervention at this point? 15 A: Because I -- I felt obligated. I 16 felt because I was being asked for help so many times by 17 so many different people, that we had to do something. 18 Q: All right. And then after the 19 individuals came back from these three (3) locations and 20 reported; what if anything did you do? 21 A: Nothing. We just took care of the 22 reserve and we waited until the next day and reported to 23 Council. 24 Q: All right. And the next day you were 25 able to contact Council?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that would be September the 7th? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: All right. And were you present at 5 the Council meeting? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Now had you spoken with anyone from 8 either Camp Ipperwash or Ipperwash Provincial Park in the 9 meantime? 10 In other words, after the third call? 11 A: No, no. 12 Q: All right. 13 A: The last thing was you can't call 14 here no more. The phone is going to be gone. 15 Q: Somebody told you that? 16 A: Yeah. 17 Q: Who told you that? 18 A: Probably Gabe. He was the most 19 talkative guy. 20 Q: Okay. All right. And what the 21 decision, if anything, if any -- of the Council the next 22 day? 23 A: The next day. Yeah, they just said 24 the same thing I did. Someone has to come in person from 25 the said community and bring their grievance or problem

1 or whatever it is to the Council. 2 Q: All right. And was that message sent 3 out to the community? 4 A: I -- I would think so. 5 Q: You don't know though? 6 A: I -- I never done it. 7 Q: All right. Did anyone come from the 8 Stoney Point community to attend before Council to your 9 knowledge? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: Do you recall when? 12 A: September the 8th. 13 Q: September the 8th? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Okay. Do you recall who came? 16 A: I just remember his last name was 17 Manning. 18 Q: All right. Were you present at the 19 Council when this individual came and made a 20 presentation? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: And what was the gist of his 23 presentation? 24 A: He more or less said what all 25 happened there. That there was a lot of families

1 involved. He was part of the family and he was on a 2 phone. He got all his direction from a phone. 3 And he presented all what they thought 4 they needed and Council met about it and agreed that 5 Stoney Point needed help. 6 Q: Now had you met this individual 7 before? 8 A: No. I think his name was Harvey. 9 Q: And do you know whether he was 10 actually or did he say whether he was actually at the 11 Park that night? 12 A: No, he wasn't. 13 Q: Okay. And as a result of the Council 14 deliberations, were you provided with any directions by 15 Council? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And what were you directed to do? 18 A: To take as many men as possible to 19 Stoney Point, to the Park, meet with the people from that 20 territory and find out what all they needed, where they 21 needed us and to do the best job that we could. 22 Q: All right. And what -- in what role 23 were you being sent to the Stoney Point community from 24 the -- by the Council? 25 A: Well, I've always been the head

1 Peacekeeper, but I was to be an observer. 2 Q: An observer initially? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: Okay. And as a result of this 5 direction, did you attend at either the Army Camp or the 6 Park? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: When? 9 A: We got there on September the 8th. 10 It was dark, so it must have been after 9:00. When we 11 first got there, we were met by some guys, I can't 12 remember who they were. We boarded a bus and went 13 straight to the Park. 14 Q: Now, in order to get -- well, let me 15 ask you this. Did you go to the Army Camp first? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: All right, and were there any -- did 18 you have to go through any barriers to get to the Park -- 19 A: Oh, yeah. 20 Q: -- or to the Army Camp, excuse me. 21 A: Yes, we did. 22 Q: Can you just tell me about that? 23 A: It was a lot of police standing in 24 ditches with -- they looked like to me, Mini-14's or 25 whatever, with some clips hanging off of them, looked

1 pretty mean. We met -- 2 Q: Well -- 3 A: -- three (3) road blocks. 4 Q: But this was at night time, was it 5 not? 6 A: Yes, it was at night time. 7 Q: How could you see that, then? 8 A: Because we had to come to a complete 9 stop. 10 Q: Was there a block? 11 A: Yes, the roads were blocked off -- 12 Q: Okay. 13 A: -- but as you come to a stop you look 14 over, and you can see OPP lined up on both sides of the 15 ditches. 16 Q: All right, and did you have to 17 identify yourselves to the police officers? 18 A: Yes, we identified ourselves. We 19 thought we'd have to go through a search, we didn't mind. 20 We just wanted to get there. 21 Q: Okay, well, we're you asked to be -- 22 to submit to a search? 23 A: No. 24 Q: All right. So once you gave your 25 names, did the police let you through?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did you have any sense that the 3 police officers who spoke with you knew who you were or 4 had a sense that -- of who you were? 5 A: I -- I would think so, because some 6 of the ones I looked at right directly in the face, were 7 from London. 8 Q: So these were -- some of these police 9 officers you had had a prior relationship with? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: All right, and you arrived, then, in 12 the Army Camp and you said you boarded a bus? 13 A: Yes. 14 Q: Do you recall what kind of bus you 15 boarded? 16 A: A school bus. 17 Q: All right. And did you make any 18 observations about the condition of that school bus when 19 you boarded it? 20 A: Just that I knew that it wasn't for 21 school anymore, you know, it was just a old bus, but it 22 ran pretty good. And it was shot up. 23 Q: Did you actually observe -- 24 A: Oh, yes -- 25 Q: -- holes?

1 A: We were shown that right away. 2 Q: By whom? 3 A: Some of the guys at the Camp. 4 Q: Do you recall who, though? 5 A: No, I can't. 6 Q: Did you know these people? Had you 7 met them before? 8 A: Never. 9 Q: All right. And can you just recall 10 what -- what holes they pointed you to or how many holes 11 they pointed you to and where they were located? 12 A: No, just some of the holes and some 13 of the one -- somebody that was driving got shot and... 14 Q: Okay. 15 A: Not really, no. 16 Q: All right, and when you went into 17 that bus, did you -- did you notice any objects in the 18 bus? Any -- any weapons, any firearms -- 19 A: Oh, no, no. 20 Q: Any bullet casings, anything like 21 that? 22 A: No. 23 Q: All right. 24 A: It was dark, no. 25 Q: All right, and you went down to the

1 Park. What did you then do when you went down to the 2 Park? 3 A: We met the rest of the guys that were 4 there and I knew some of them. I knew -- there was a 5 couple of Oneidas there, a couple of guys from Walpole 6 Island, I knew them. 7 So we all met and just sat around and went 8 over what happened. 9 Q: Who did you speak to that you 10 recognized? 11 A: Robert Isaac from Walpole Island, 12 Alan George from Oneida, Les Jewel from Detroit. That's 13 about the main guys, I guess, that I talked to. 14 Q: And did you also see Buck and Gabriel 15 Doxtator at that time? 16 A: Yeah, probably the next day. 17 Q: The next day, okay. 18 A: Yeah. 19 Q: I'm just talking about that -- that 20 night. 21 A: No, not that I know. 22 Q: How about Dutchy French? 23 A: Yeah. 24 Q: You saw him that night? 25 A: Yes.

1 Q: All right. And who went with you to 2 the Park from Oneida? 3 A: There was about thirty-six (36) of 4 us. 5 Q: All in the bus? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Okay. Thirty-six (36) men from 8 Oneida with you? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. And were these men who were 11 sent by the Council? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: All right, and I take it you must 14 have come in at least a few cars? 15 A: Oh, yeah. 16 Q: And to your knowledge, were all the 17 cars stopped? 18 A: Yes. 19 Q: By the police, I mean, outside -- 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: -- the Camp Ipperwash? Okay, and 22 what -- what measures, if any, did you take in the 23 evening of September the 8th with respect to the Park? 24 Did you do anything or was it just to gather information? 25 A: It was just to gather information,

1 meet some of the guys, just to look around and just meet 2 guys, that's all. 3 Q: All right. And was there any visible 4 policing presence around the Park that night? 5 A: No. 6 Q: So it was only the -- the occupiers 7 and -- and the men you brought? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Okay. And could you see whether or 10 not there had been any measures taken to -- to preserve 11 the area where the -- the confrontation occurred? 12 A: No. 13 Q: All right. So people were -- were 14 people actually walking around that area? 15 A: All over. 16 Q: In the sandy parking lot along East 17 Parkway Drive as far as you could see? 18 A: Oh, yeah. 19 Q: Okay. And did you also walk around 20 those areas? 21 A: Yeah. 22 Q: And did you observe any -- any 23 residue from the confrontation that night? 24 A: No. 25 Q: All right. Was it -- was the area

1 lit, the sandy parking lot? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: What was it lit by? 4 A: There was street lights. 5 Q: Street lights? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Are you sure about that? 8 A: Yes, positive. 9 Q: Did you any flashlights with you? 10 A: Flashlights, spotlights, they were 11 all over. 12 Q: All right. Did you have one? 13 A: No. 14 Q: Okay. Okay. And how long did you 15 stay in the -- in the area walking around the Park, the 16 sandy parking lot and -- and the East Parkway Drive area? 17 A: Oh, twenty (20) minutes, half an 18 hour. 19 Q: All right. And then what did you do? 20 A: We all just went and -- by the fire 21 and told stories I guess. 22 Q: Where did you -- where was the fire 23 that you sat around? 24 A: Just inside the Park. 25 Q: Okay. And at that time did you

1 notice the remains of a burnt structure? 2 A: Oh, yeah. 3 Q: And where was the fire that you sat 4 around in relation to that structure? 5 A: About twenty (20) feet. 6 Q: Did you understand that the structure 7 was -- used to be a store of some sort? 8 A: No, I never did. Just a building. 9 Q: Okay. And were you within eyeshot of 10 the sandy parking lot? 11 A: Oh, yeah. 12 Q: Now did anything else of significance 13 occur during the course of that evening? 14 A: No, not really. I was just surprised 15 how small that area was for that many people to be -- 16 Q: Okay. And I take it you had no 17 further exchanges with the police that evening? 18 A: No. No. 19 Q: Did you communicate back or report 20 back to -- to your Council? 21 A: Yes, I phoned back and told them we 22 made it in and we met the people and we're going to rest 23 until tomorrow. 24 Q: And that you were going to rest til 25 tomorrow. So you made this phone call that evening?

1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And did you have a cell phone or 3 where did you make -- 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And where did you sleep that night? 6 A: In the bus. 7 Q: In the bus? 8 A: Yeah. 9 Q: Did others sleep in the bus with you? 10 A: Yes. 11 Q: And do you know where the remaining 12 men slept? I assume not all thirty-six (36) were on the 13 bus. 14 A: All over on the ground. 15 Q: Okay. Fair enough. All right. 16 A: And some stayed up keeping point 17 and -- 18 Q: Keeping point? 19 A: Yeah, watching, looking out. 20 Q: Now, were these men under your 21 direction? 22 A: Yes. 23 Q: Did you -- did you have a further 24 communication with Council concerning what it was you 25 should be doing?

1 A: Not until the next day. 2 Q: September the 9th? 3 A: September the 9th or 10th. 4 Q: All right. And what, if any, 5 conclusions had you come to in relation to what roles you 6 could best discharge. 7 A: Most of all was the people that went 8 through this, they weren't feeling too good. They didn't 9 look that great. Their hopes weren't too high. 10 And I asked them to move to the built-up 11 area, the Camp, and all the Oneidas stayed at the back in 12 case the OPP come back again, that would be us there 13 instead of them; they already went through enough. 14 Q: You recommended, then, to these -- 15 the occupiers that they go back to the built-up area on 16 the 9th? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: Is that on the 9th? All right. And 19 that you and your men from Oneida would stay in the Park? 20 A: Yes. 21 Q: And what -- what was the basis for 22 your concern that the police might return? 23 A: Because they're getting to a point 24 where I don't trust them. 25 Q: A this point you -- you were

1 concerned about trusting them? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And that was based on what? 4 A: Everything I seen there. 5 Q: And so did the -- did the -- did the 6 occupiers go back to Camp Ipperwash? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: All right. And did you -- 9 A: They all had places to stay in, like 10 houses and a place to stay, so it was no problem. 11 Q: All right. Did you have any 12 interactions with the police during the course of 13 September the 9th? 14 A: No. 15 Q: All right. What did you do on the 16 9th, then? 17 A: On the 9th some of our chiefs come in 18 and clan mothers and -- to look at the situation and 19 there was a meeting inside the gymnasium -- auditorium, 20 or whatever you want to call it. 21 Q: Where was that? 22 A: At -- at the built-up area. 23 Q: Okay. 24 A: And I don't know if it was Glenn or 25 Judas George -- Glenn George -- that asked Bruce Elijah

1 to see if the Oneidas could take the lead because they'd 2 never, ever been in a situation like that before with a 3 confrontation with police or -- anything like that. 4 They're a pretty peaceful people. 5 And knowing that that's what we do is try 6 and keep the peace in other communities and we had 7 experience at it, that's what we done. We said, Yes, 8 we'll take that role and we started right then and there. 9 Q: Okay. And just for clarification, 10 what role, if any, were you assigned within this context 11 on behalf of Oneida? 12 A: Head peacekeeper. 13 Q: All right. Commissioner, I'm 14 wondering whether it might be an appropriate time for the 15 morning break before I move on? 16 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: Absolutely. 17 MS. SUSAN VELLA: Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: We'll take 19 the morning break now. 20 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry will recess 21 for fifteen (15) minutes. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 10:27 a.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 10:45 a.m. 25

1 THE REGISTRAR: This Inquiry is now 2 resumed, please be seated. 3 4 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA: 5 Q: Mr. Elijah, before we move onto your 6 involvement in the post-September 6th event, I'd like to 7 return to the telephone calls that you testified 8 receiving in the late evening of September the 6th. 9 What telephone company did you use in 10 September of '95? 11 A: Bell. 12 Q: And in whose name was the telephone? 13 A: Veronica Nicholas. 14 Q: And who is she? 15 A: She's my common-law wife. 16 Q: Thank you. Did your spouse receive 17 her September '95 account from Bell? 18 A: Yes, she did. 19 Q: Did you review it? 20 A: Yes, I did. 21 Q: Did you notice anything peculiar? 22 A: Yes, I did. 23 Q: What did you notice? 24 A: That the -- the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 25 8th, it's just like those days never happened; they were

1 blacked out. 2 Q: Now, were they physically -- were 3 there entries that were physically blacked out or what 4 did you view? 5 A: Yes, they were physically blacked 6 out. 7 Q: Okay. And what if anything did you 8 do when you noticed this? 9 A: I asked Veronica to write a letter to 10 Bell Canada asking for receipts of our September bill; 11 that we needed them. 12 Q: And do -- do you know what the result 13 of those efforts were? 14 A: The first one was nothing. And the 15 second time was a telephone call and they send us a 16 different copy. It had those dates on there but it had a 17 cover letter stating that if anything is missed, don't 18 worry about it, we will not be billed for it later. 19 Sorry for the inconvenience. 20 Q: All right. And what -- what 21 information would you have expected to see on that 22 account which wasn't there? 23 A: I expected to see all those collect 24 phone calls that I was going to try to prove. 25 Q: Did you keep a copy of that bill?

1 A: Of the very first bill? 2 Q: The original account that your wife 3 received? 4 A: No. I was -- I was already up here. 5 When I talked to the SIU, they asked me for it and I said 6 yeah, no problem. So that's when I asked her to get it 7 and it was blanked out. So she asked for a new one. 8 Q: Now you're indicating that someone 9 from the SIU asked you to get a copy of your Bell 10 account? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: When was that? 13 A: I don't know. I -- I'm just -- 14 Q: Can you give me a general time frame? 15 Was it close to -- the September 6th events or -- 16 A: No. 17 Q: -- much later? 18 A: It was later. 19 Q: And who asked you for that in 20 particular from the SIU? 21 A: It could be Jim. 22 Q: Kennedy? 23 A: Jim Kennedy? 24 Q: And do you know why or what gave rise 25 to -- to the subject of the Bell account?

1 A: Because I kept telling them the story 2 over and over of what I knew. 3 Q: Okay. Did you provide a copy of that 4 blanked out account to the SIU? 5 A: I would think so. 6 Q: Well, when you say I would think so, 7 did you or didn't you? 8 A: I gave them something. I don't know 9 if it was the second one I received and I still wasn't 10 satisfied nor was my wife. So we asked for a third one 11 and that third one is the one we have today. 12 Q: All right. Well, I'm interested in 13 the original account that showed blacked out lines, I 14 assume. 15 A: I'm hoping -- I'm hoping that's the 16 one that the SIU got. 17 Q: Did you give that to them? 18 A: I gave them one. I gave them one. 19 Q: One (1) of them. You can't recall 20 which? 21 A: No, I can't recall. 22 Q: All right. And have you searched 23 your records to see if you have retained either the 24 original or a copy of that September account? Have you 25 looked for it?

1 A: No. 2 Q: You haven't looked for it? 3 A: Oh, well, yeah, we looked for it. 4 But this is ten (10) years down the road, nine (9) years. 5 Q: And so have you been able to find a 6 copy of that original account received in September? 7 A: No. 8 Q: All right. Did you receive any 9 subsequent accounts from Bell Canada reflecting the 10 September '95 time period? 11 A: Yes. On our third attempt. 12 Q: All right. I would like to show you 13 what appears to be an original copy of a Bell account, 14 account number 5196525103. It's dated September 16, 1995 15 and it's pages 3 of 6 through 6 of 6. Show that to you 16 right now and please advise me if this is a -- if you can 17 recognize that. 18 A: Yes, that's it. Yes. Yes. 19 Q: I would like to make this the next 20 exhibit. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P-320, Your 22 Honour. 23 COMMISSIONER SIDNEY LINDEN: P-320. 24 25 --- EXHIBIT NO. P-320: Bell telephone account number

1 519-652-5103 September 16/'95 2 pages 3 to 6 listing calls 3 from 08/18/'95 to 09/15/'95 4 5 CONTINUED BY MS. SUSAN VELLA. 6 Q: And this is a copy of the account 7 that we distributed yesterday to Counsel. Now you've 8 shown me some other bills and page 1 and 2 of this 9 account has not been produced. 10 Page 1, I understand has the general 11 billing information with Ms. Nicholson's name on it? 12 A: Nicholas, yes. 13 Q: Nicholas, excuse me, all right. Now, 14 as I look at this page 3 of 6, first of all are the 15 collect calls that you testified about receiving the 16 night of September the 6th, 1995, are they reflected on 17 this account? 18 A: No. 19 Q: I note on page 3, there are entries, 20 two (2) entries dated September 6th, one (1) at 19:26 and 21 one (1) at 21:10. It says from local public telephone. 22 Are those entries with respect to those 23 phone calls that you testified about? 24 A: No. 25 Q: And how do you know that?

1 A: Because the times would have been in 2 the 23:00 and 24:00. 3 Q: 24:00? You mean midnight? 4 A: Yeah, well all the way through, yeah, 5 from 11:00 to 12:00 to 12:30 'til 1:00. 6 Q: All right, and so you'd expect to see 7 an entry also from September the 7th on here? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And I note that there's a charge of 10 seventy-five (75) cents for these particular phone calls 11 dated September the 6th. 12 What does that tell you, if anything? 13 A: That just tells me that somebody used 14 a public telephone that never had a quarter and when you 15 get -- ask the operator for a connection, they charge you 16 that extra fifty (50) cents. 17 Q: All right, and it says "local public 18 telephone". Would the -- would a telephone booth from 19 Ipperwash be considered local, public? 20 A: No. 21 Q: All right, that would be long 22 distance? 23 A: That would be long distance. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)

1 Q: All right, now as of September the 2 9th, 1995 then, did you assume the position as head 3 peacekeeper down at Ipperwash Provincial Park? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: And can you tell me what your prime - 6 - what your primary responsibilities were as head 7 peacekeeper? 8 A: First of all, we asked who's all from 9 which nation, because by then it was building up, it was 10 quite a few natives there. 11 And we put them in their perspective 12 Nations and we pointed them different points around the 13 territory and we held down the Park area. 14 Q: And you say you "held down the Park 15 area", first of all, what were the parameters of the area 16 that you were holding down? 17 A: From, I think, it's Matheson Drive 18 and then the whole Park. 19 Q: Did it include the sandy parking lot 20 area at the corner of Army Camp Road and East Parkway? 21 A: Yes. 22 Q: Did it go beyond Army Camp Road and 23 along East Parkway at all? 24 A: Yes. 25 Q: How far?

1 A: About pretty near to the next block. 2 Q: The next -- did it include the 3 Ministry of Natural Resources parking lot, located off of 4 East Parkway Drive? 5 A: It was almost to that area. 6 Q: Almost to that area? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: But it did not include that area? 9 A: No. 10 Q: All right. Were you going to add 11 something to that? 12 A: I was just going to say that that 13 place was a little touchy at the time. 14 Q: Was sensitive? 15 A: Yeah. 16 Q: All right. So, then, was that area 17 left, if you will, unregulated by your -- your person -- 18 your team? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: All right. What about the cottages 21 that were located right on the corner there, adjacent to 22 the Park and the sandy parking lot -- 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: -- is that -- 25 A: That was --

1 Q: -- was that part of the area that you 2 secured? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: And can I ask under whose 5 jurisdiction or authority you secured the cottages? 6 A: On behalf of Chief and Council. 7 Q: Okay, of Oneida? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: All right. Did you consult at all 10 with the OPP with respect to the propriety of exercising 11 control over other persons cottages? 12 A: Not in the beginning, no. 13 Q: Did you subsequently? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And what was the result of that? 16 A: They just asked if they could have a 17 member present when there was a walkthrough to see what 18 condition they were in, and then what condition they were 19 going to be in, in the after. 20 Q: All right. 21 A: Whatever time it was. 22 Q: Is that later in September? 23 A: Yes. 24 Q: And was there any suggestion by the 25 OPP that you -- you shouldn't be patrolling the cottages?

1 A: No. 2 Q: And did you take up residence at the 3 maintenance shed, then, on -- on or about September the 4 9th? 5 A: No, we lived right inside the Park. 6 I never got that residence until, I think it was March 7 the next year. 8 Q: Okay, March of '96? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q: Okay. Were there any rules or 11 bottom-line principles established by you with respect to 12 the types of behaviours and conduct that were appropriate 13 or inappropriate at the Park? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: What were those? 16 A: No drugs, no alcohol, don't go out 17 there without asking, make sure you know where everybody 18 is; you all have a buddy system, you have somebody on 19 your left and somebody on your right. You know who 20 you're with, you know your boundaries and stay within 21 those boundaries. Keep the peace. 22 Q: Now, as head of the peacekeepers and 23 in the role of security, to whom did you report? 24 A: To Bruce Elijah. 25 Q: What was your understanding of his

1 role and why would you report to him? 2 A: Because he's the one that was asked 3 by Stoney Point First Nation and he was acting on behalf 4 of the Natives in everything that was outside; all the 5 meetings with MNR and OPP and the Military. 6 Q: Okay. And you said that one (1) of 7 the measures you -- you instituted in terms of securing 8 the area that you've described was ensuring that you knew 9 who was in and out of the Park and that people would have 10 to check in? 11 A: No, they wouldn't have to check in, 12 just don't go out there -- 13 Q: Just don't go out there? 14 A: -- without -- without -- without me 15 knowing. 16 Q: Yes, okay, without you knowing? 17 A: Yeah. 18 Q: All right. And did you have any -- 19 any system or systematic way of checking the parameters 20 of the area that you were securing? 21 A: Yes, we had people on there twenty- 22 four (24) hours a day. 23 Q: And were they patrols, essentially? 24 A: Yes, yes. 25 Q: And could you just give me a sense as

1 to what the routine patrols would -- would consist of? 2 A: We'd just go around the outer edge. 3 We had a -- a car with two (2) people that went around 4 the whole territory and check in with the two (2) 5 spokespersons from each nation that had their place, make 6 sure everything was okay. And then we done the same 7 thing in our area, but we -- we continued -- we -- we 8 controlled it constantly. 9 Q: And when you say, "the whole 10 territory," are you including Camp Ipperwash as well? 11 A: Yes. 12 Q: All right. So, the parameters -- do 13 the parameters go out to Outer Drive on one (1) side? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: Down to the lake on the other side? 16 A: Yes. 17 Q: And then out to nearly the MNR 18 parking lot? 19 A: Yes. 20 Q: And the cottage area? 21 A: That was -- that was in our boundary, 22 yes. 23 Q: And then was it up -- essentially up 24 Army Camp Road to Highway 21? 25 A: Well -- well, ours was from -- to, I

1 think it was Matheson Drive it was called -- 2 Q: Matheson Drive? 3 A: -- and then there was another team, 4 Moraviantown, that was from the corner to the front gate, 5 so they mean the -- the front gates, so if anything went 6 through there, which was hardly likely -- 7 Q: Okay. 8 A: -- they would know or we would know. 9 Q: All right. But you had routine 10 patrols, nonetheless, through the Army Camp? 11 A: Oh, yes. 12 Q: And how many people were involved in 13 -- in assisting you with the security detail? 14 A: Everybody. 15 Q: Thirty-six (36) people, then?